Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1198

This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:Teahouse. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current main page.

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Archive 1197

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Spiderman 4 fan film

There should be an article that talks about the upcoming Spiderman 4 fan film.[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CTGBwAL6qw [2]https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9765564/ 190.21.177.42 (talk) 17:49, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi IP editor, welcome to the Teahouse. It's very rare for a film - especially a fan film - to receive any coverage in reliable, independent, published secondary sources before it is released. Please see WP:42 to get an idea of what articles are based on. Perhaps once it does get released, there will be critical coverage which can be used as the basis for an article. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 18:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello and welcome. This fan film would need to meet the same criteria as other films, see WP:NFILM. 331dot (talk) 18:02, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

editing

how do you switch from source editing to visual editing Ducklan (talk) 18:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Ducklan and welcome to the Teahouse! In the toolbar at the top of your screen, there should be a button (it looks like a pencil) to switch. For a visual, please see Help: VisualEditor. You can also change the default editor in your user preferences. Happy editing! Grumpylawnchair (talk) 20:19, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Yara listen Smith Martinez and Jenny Smith McCarthy

yara Smith Jenny Smith Nicole's Smith Marilyn Smith Marianne Smith 2605:BA00:A208:8BA:99FD:A19:B075:9DDF (talk) 20:31, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello @2605:BA00:A208:8BA:99FD:A19:B075:9DDF and welcome to the Teahouse! Do you have a question about editing Wikipedia? Grumpylawnchair (talk) 20:34, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Editing - returning to part at which I started an edit

Place where edit was started was regarding the Chrysler Museum of Art in Norfolk Virginia. I lacked a second name, which I have recovered since. My source is my own eyeballs, but my suggested text addition could be confirmed by the Curators of the glass collection, whose names are given in the sidebar about the Museum. CAN I GO BACK AND ADD SECOND NAME? HOW LONG DOES THE EDIT REMAIN IN SUSPENSION BEFORE CRASHING AND BEING ERASED? Virginia Refugee (talk) 20:20, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Virginia Refugee and welcome to the Teahouse. If you are referring to this edit, please note that you need a published and verifiable reliable source for any information you add to Wikipedia, per Wikipedia's citation policy. Asking or emailing a curator would not be verifiable, as nobody other than you can verify that completely. Your change is archived in the page history for now, and the page history isn't deleted unless the page it belongs to is. You are welcome to add back the second name once you find a reliable/published source that backs it up. Hope this helps. Grumpylawnchair (talk) 20:40, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Notes in the lists of Pokémon by generation (e.g., List of generation I Pokémon)

Hello all,

Question on the notability & sourceability of information in the notes of tables for the lists of Pokémon by generation. These list articles contain extensive notes which are rarely sourced and appear to be predominantly in-universe information, but given the volume of these entries & time that they have been in this status I am unsure if removing these notes except where sourced & notable outside of the game universe is the correct approach.

Example: As of the current revision of List of generation I Pokémon (1), Pidgeot has the following note:

(1) https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=List_of_generation_I_Pok%C3%A9mon&oldid=1171331552

Most trainers choose Pidgeot as their Pokémon due to their striking, beautiful feathers. Pidgeots tend to be very large in size. Its highly decorated plumage is used to intimidate enemies. It races through the skies at Mach-2 speed.

This is not clearly sourced, and appears to be generally not aligned with Wikipedia's policies on notability (since this is in-universe information) and original research.

This entry has been in this state with minor revisions since December 2019 (2), with the first sentance being present with minor revisions since November 2018 (3)...

(2) https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=List_of_generation_I_Pok%C3%A9mon&oldid=929561005

(3) https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=List_of_generation_I_Pok%C3%A9mon&oldid=870930429

Note: On certain list pages (e.g., List of generation II Pokémon there is a header (see below) which explicitly states that in-universe information should not be added, but appears not to have been followed since almost all entries in the list have this type of information.

This article only covers the basics of Pokémon species. For detailed in-universe information, please refer to dedicated wikis on the subject.

Thanks for your advice, Shazback (talk) 15:24, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Any unsourced content can be removed at any time. - UtherSRG (talk) 15:45, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

I suppose, really, it depends on the information you're removing. In the example of Pidgeot, I'd agree it's mostly fluff and we should just have a physical description. However, this additional info is sometimes useful in demonstrating a Pokemon's abilities or personality. It's really dependent on what information is listed and what information is actually useful for building that image. I'd say it's really case by case per Pokemon, but granted I wouldn't know without going through all 1010+ entries individually. It's a big undertaking.

As an example while looking at one of the lists right now, I'm going to use Ivysaur. The first sentence, describing how its seed has grown into a bud and how it's lost the ability to stand on its hind legs, may be useful as physical description, but needs a rewrite so it's not quoting the Pokedex entry verbatim. The fact it draws in sunlight as energy through said bud may be useful as well. A lot of the other information there is mostly fluff. (Do we need to know that it releases a scent when it's about to evolve? It's not necessary information.)

As for sourcing, if any of this in universe info is useful for a Pokemon in question, it most likely comes from in game Pokedex entries. Many Pokemon articles on Wikipedia cite Pokedex entries in the sources, typically for physical descriptions and the like, so it really comes down to finding said entry and citing it. Again, this is only if the information could be useful as an identifier. Pokelego999 (talk) 16:58, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

My main concern is how to align with WP:VG/CONTENT "[...] it is important not to clutter an article with [...] an excessive amount of non-encyclopedic trivia" and WP:VGSCOPE , in particular item 5 "Excessive fictional details: [...] focus on the real-world elements of a topic, such as creation and reception".

Most (if not all) of the information in the "notes" column appears to be trivia with limited or no link to the real-world elements of the Pokémon series. By nature of there being >100 items on each list page, even minimal trivia on a per-item basis is excessive for the list as a whole.

Pokémons' physical description, abilities, and personality do not seem to have sufficient real-world impact to be included on this basis in my opinion.

Explanations of Pokémon's names ("Its English name is a portmanteau of "ivy" and "dinosaur") and appearances in other games would similarly need to be re-worked significantly (through mutliple sources showing how this is relevant to the creation or reception of the Pokémon series).

For both Pidgeot and Ivysaur as of current revision [3] my WP:BOLD approach would be to remove the entire text in the "Note" column...

I would suggest that most of the information in "Notes" should be copied to a gaming wiki and removed from Wikipedia. Shazback (talk) 19:54, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

I have to disagree. What's the point of a list if the reader has no idea what the heck the subjects are? That's just words on a sheet at that point. I agree it needs a major trimming and rewording, but complete removal? That just seems unhelpful for the article. If you're interested in adding reception and such for the Pokemon on the list, then I'm definitely in agreement that it would be beneficial, but then there also comes the caveat of going through every species of Pokemon for a search for sources. That's an undertaking that's incredibly massive by nature, and it's not something that can be accomplished in one simple edit overnight.

My main suggestion would be to trim the trivia, reword the very blatantly copied information, and properly cite Dex entries they come from as a start. From there, I'd suggest trying to see if you can find some help in a search for sources. From what I know of prior Pokemon source searches, there's definitely at least one or two bits and bobs of reception for most Pokemon in existence, but going through all 1010+ species and their forms by yourself is something that would take months. I'd be willing to lend a hand where possible, given the nature of this whole thing, but I heavily oppose the complete removal of all information related to the Pokemon. It seems detrimental to the reader's understanding of the characters in question. Pokelego999 (talk) 21:17, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, as the one who has tried to do all of this but has been redacted multiple times, I tried my best to NOT make it look like it got copied straight out of the Dex and more of a informative bit to help people understand what it is and about. Have I done it well? Debatable. But I am willing to hear any discussion and so far it seems like we should reword it which I can gladly help with. UB Blacephalon (talk) 05:40, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Ah, apologies if I misconstrued the facts, then. In any case, if we go down the reword path, I'd be happy to help as well. Pokelego999 (talk) 15:41, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I've been overwhelmed by the sheer amount of uncited information in these lists for a long time. I would be a proponent of just removing all uncited information and everything cited to primary sources. It can be hard to find the most basic information about these iconic creatures in sources that would help us understand what is important about them, but we definitely should not quote the Pokédex! ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 06:40, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

isn't that what the pokedex is for though? To cite useful information about pokemon that poleople dont know about? You can cite the Pokedex as is, and Bulbapedia quotes it as well. UB Blacephalon (talk) 13:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

The Pokédex is copyrighted material [4] and as such cannot be extensively quoted WP:NFCCEG. Bulbapedia's goals, policies and guidelines are different from Wikipedia so inclusion of information there should not influence our decision to influence it here. However, from a cursory view (without familiarity to their content inclusion guidelines and policy) this seems to be a suitable place to find exhaustive information on the Pokémon universe, including and not limited to physical descriptions, abilities, personalities, name etymology, media appearances and other trivia for every Pokémon. Shazback (talk) 13:28, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I will say, in terms of primary sources, that it is possible to cite Pokemon's Official Website. They have a Pokedex section, though it only contains one entry. Here's an example for Ivysaur. Some articles also cite information related to the Pokemon while discussing it in an unrelated manner. I'm using Ivysaur for consistency here, and though this isn't the best example, this article does cite a physical description that can be used. If every description needs to be cited, this is likely the best way to go without quoting the Pokedex in game, which can be used sparingly, worst comes to worst, so long as it isn't overused in the grand scheme of the article. Method should be "find descriptions in reliable sources" followed by "quote Pokemon.com as a last resort" followed by "quote the actual Pokedex as a backup" unless there's a better way I've missed out there. Pokelego999 (talk) 15:56, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

You know, instead of the "In game universe" stuff we could just plainly say "All information can be found on Pokemons website and the Pokedex." And then cite it. UB Blacephalon (talk) 16:16, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Or just leave it off entirely. The majority of in-game information is not relevant to the purposes of Wikipedia, unless it is information reported by reliable 3rd-party sources. - UtherSRG (talk) 16:30, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Descriptions of the characters are helpful for the reader's understanding. For instance, there technically isn't a need for plot summary in a fictional character article, nor is there a need to describe personality and characteristics of the character. And yet we do it anyway. This is because to better understand the character in question, the information is necessary for figuring out who they are in the grand scheme of things. How am I meant to know what an Ivysaur is without a description? Sure I could just look it up on Bulbapedia or something, but if our policy is just to redirect users to other sites, then what's the point of having a Wikipedia article? At that point it's just a glorified disambiguation page. Wikipedia readers should be able to understand even just the bare basics of a character just from a quick scroll on this site, not from searches that take you elsewhere. Imagine reading a Pokemon article, getting a redirect for Ivysaur, and it tells you to leave elsewhere. You would then need to go to another site, read about Ivysaur there (And in probably more detail than the casual audience would need) and then head back to Wikipedia to continue reading what you were reading before. That makes no sense and it's just a hassle for anyone reading this.

Again, I agree that there's a lot of fluff we can trim, but a complete removal of information is just detrimental to the articles in question. Pokelego999 (talk) 16:54, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

A description is fine, but it should come from reliable third-party sources when possible. WP:FANCRUFT is not desirable, which means dex entries are out, as are rewrites of such. "Ivysaur is a grass-poison type middle evolution of the grass-starter Bulbasaur." is a perfectly valid description that doesn't stray into fancruft, and could be cited to numerous reliable 3rd-party sources. For hints on how to proceed with what to leave in and what to yeet, read WP:BACKWARD which essentially says "start with the sources that are acceptable, and build the article from there". If you are starting with a bunch of text you want to include, and then go looking for sources, you are failing. - UtherSRG (talk) 17:06, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Ah, my apologies, I misunderstood what you were meaning. I agree with your approach. Pokelego999 (talk) 17:18, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Sure, but if we can cite the Pokedex as a course, we can trim somethings down but there still needs a basic understanding, and that's exactly what the Pokedex is. UB Blacephalon (talk) 17:25, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

on an unrelated note, the plural of "pokémon" is "pokémon", which applies to the individual species

so in that example, seeing the word "pidgeots" felt like the literary equivalent of stubbing my toe on a ceramic vase with enough force to break it

before considering removing fancruft, copyvio and traits that are entirely informed in the pokédex and not shown in the games, someone _{(possibly me)} should at least try to do some-thing about the grammers cogsan • (give me attention) • (see my deeds) 18:38, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I completely agree. That's actually sometimes why I do it. So I can see a better way of writing it. Also that analogy was hilarious. UB Blacephalon (talk) 19:03, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

in the process of editing it for wording's sake, most of the entries are full of clearly opinionated sentences with no sources, such as "the best thing about machop is that its muscles never get sore"

i don't think i have the skill or time to spot and replace them all with more objective wording, but i'll try

still better than the list of tmnt characters cogsan • (give me attention) • (see my deeds) 19:12, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Yeah ill still input them in but who knows if I'm allowed to anymore. UB Blacephalon (talk) 21:21, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Would it be permitted to register an account that is an alternate capitalization of one's username?

I want to register the doppelgänger account Looksquare, even though it's not out of worry for being impersonated or anything like that. Is that still allowed? LOOKSQUARE (👤️·🗨️) talk 22:10, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, LOOKSQUARE, and welcome to the Teahouse! If you intend to ever edit with that account, such a request would be unlikely to be approved as others would likely not easily recognize that the two accounts were not the same. Note that if you just want to be renamed, you can do that - see WP:RENAME for details. Would you mind explaining why you want the other account? With more information I might be able to help further. Tollens (talk) 22:25, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi Tollens,

I don't want that as my main account, but just as an alias so it's easier for people to type. Is that allowed? I'm not interested in a rename. LOOKSQUARE (👤️·🗨️) talk 22:26, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure what you mean - pinging for example still wouldn't go through to your main account if they used lowercase. If that's fine, and you just want that account's pages to redirect to your user page and talk page, and never plan on editing using that account, it would probably be approved. You'll have to submit a request at WP:ACC as the signup page won't let you since it will be too similar. Tollens (talk) 22:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! LOOKSQUARE (👤️·🗨️) talk 23:05, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

how to put signature

i forgot how to put my signature on something when chatting Ducklan (talk) 18:44, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Ducklan, welcome to the Teahouse!

Use ~~~~ at the end of your message - but as you can see the Reply tool sings your posts automatically NotAGenious (talk) 18:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much Ducklan (talk) 18:51, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

why is it necessary to put signature if it gets put in anywat Ducklan (talk) 18:56, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

anyway, sorry for the misspelling Ducklan (talk) 18:57, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

The bots that sign unsigned posts do not always work correctly, Ducklan. And why would you want other people to think that you are the type of editor who expects bots take care of your personal business? Cullen328 (talk) 19:03, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I believe Cullen328 is referring to User:SineBot, which automatically places signatures for you if you forgot to add them. If you are replying by manually editing the talk page, you need to append ~~~~ to the end of your message.

However, if you use the reply tool, it automatically places your signature in for you, which means that you don't have to append ~~~~ to the end of the message. Ca ^{talk to me!} 00:12, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Should street maps be presented as box drawings (text art)?

For example, this is a box drawing map on the article Sparks Street:

│ │====│ │==== ==│ │===== │ │===   │ │== == │ │=====╰╮  ╰╮ ==╭╯ ╭╯
│ │====│ │====   │ │===== │ │===   │ │      │ │      │   │  │  │
┘ └────┘ └───────┘ └──────┘ └──────┘ └──────┘ └──────┘   ╰--╯ ╭╯
                   Sparks Street                             │ 
┐ ┌────┐ ┌───────┐ ┌──────┐ ┌──────┐ ┌──────┐ ┌──────────┐  ╭╯
│B│    │L│==     │K│======│B│  === │O│      │M│====      │E │
│a│    │y│==     │e│======│a│  === │C│      │e│====      │l │
│y│    │o│       │n│      │n│      │o│      │t│          │g │
│ │    │n│       │t│      │k│      │n│      │c│          │i │
│ │    │ │       │ │      │ │      │n│      │a│          │n │
│ │    │ │       │ │      │ │      │o│      │l│          │  │
│ │    │ │       │ │      │ │      │r│      │f│          │  │
│ │    │ │       │ │      │ │      │ │      │e│          │  │

Should this be converted to an image or a map similar to the ones typically shown in infoboxes? LOOKSQUARE (👤️·🗨️) talk 15:07, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

There may have been use for graphics like this decades ago, but currently Wikipedia uses a robust automated mapping system Wikipedia:Maplink, which uses the Open Street Map system. I'm not terribly familiar with the system myself, but there's documentation linked from that page on how to use it, and there is also Wikipedia:Graphics Lab/Map workshop which is a place to request that maps be made for you by someone with more experience. --Jayron 32 15:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Please. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 16:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I never knew Wikipedia had articles on individual Nethack levels. Folly Mox (talk) 00:56, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Adding Romanized Chinese

I am used to adding Romanized Korean but made a page containing Chinese text that should be Romanized; Gary Shiu. I am unsure where to ask. if anyone can assist I would very much appreciate it. ₪RicknAsia₪ 04:26, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

@Rickinasia, WT:CHINA would probably have someone who can help.

You didn't directly ask about this, but one quick thing I observe looking at Gary Shiu is that you begin by writing that he is a Chinese-American theoretical physicist. I'm not sure if this is recorded somewhere as guidance or just general best practice, but if he was not born in China — I avoid beginning articles with someone's ethnic background unless it's particularly relevant to their notability (e.g. if he were an anti-Asian hate activist). We'd never include the ethnic background of someone with e.g. German ancestry in their article, so the same standard should apply for bios of people of color. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 04:57, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Ah, looks like it's at MOS:ETHNICITY. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 04:58, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I've added the pinyin and jyutping romanizations into the infobox. bibliomaniac 1 5 06:39, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Wonderful. Thank you so much, I really appreciate it :) ₪RicknAsia₪ 01:07, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

What is the best way to get a page taken down restored?

A gymnast page was taken down and they definitelt meet the requirements per WP:Gymnast. 2607:FB91:88AC:52F3:AC39:D1F7:7EBF:622F (talk) 20:44, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello and welcome. It would help to know which article you are referencing in order to be able to give the best answer. 331dot (talk) 20:46, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

If the page was deleted, and you truly believe the subject was notable and the page was well-sourced, etc., then look at Wikipedia:Deletion Review, I suppose. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 20:52, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:gymnast they are considered notable if they win the all around in the nationals and compete as part of a team in the world championships or Olympics. She won accomplished this in 2022 and has won 5 medals for team usa at the pan am games.

https://members.usagym.org/pages/athletes/nationalTeamRhythmic.html?id=481159 2607:FB91:34F:8A13:AC39:8391:6763:803 (talk) 05:06, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

It was deleted as a result of this discussion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Emily Wilson (gymnast). Deletion review isn't a process to contest the deletion, it isn't "round 2" of a deletion discussion, it's to review whether the closing administrator applied Wikipedia's policies and guidelines correctly in closing the discussion.

You could also ask the closing administrator whether Emily Wilson (gymnast) could be restored to draft space for you to improve and then submit for review. ~Anachronist (talk) 05:20, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Abuse of powers by Moderators.

I placed an edit request in India Talk page. I backed up my request with facts and suitable substantiation. But my request was not accepted and that too without any reason being given. My request was to change an error in the info box of the page. Everytime I make a reply reply I change my query status answered from Yes to No as instructed by the info page. Now one of the Mods have now given me warning for doing this and asked me to post my query here and in rfc. How do I report the Moderators and how do I get the India Page's info box corrected. Roaly3 (talk) 05:31, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi Roaly. I briefly looked at the conversation over here. My take: I don't think anyone is attacking you personally, and I don't see any abuse of power taking place here. I'd encourage you to refrain from trying to "report" anybody, and instead focus your energies on taking their well-meaning advice by creating an RfC about how the "official languages" are treated on the India page. Pecopteris (talk) 05:58, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

I did that. I added the RFC tag to the post just as I was instructed and it was deleted by another editor. Roaly3 (talk) 05:57, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Domain Blocked for No Reason

Hello, I don't know why but wikipedia has added my this www.tecnofy.xyz domain in blacklist for no reason how can I add it to whitelist Alltheuser (talk) 14:00, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

@Alltheuser: Why do you want to remove it from the spam blacklist? Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 14:03, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Honestly, on browsing the site, it looks like spam already. So, I'm not surprised it's on the Spam blacklist. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 14:05, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 14:09, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

@Alltheuser And your only other edit has been to add linkspam, which I have reverted. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Although they've certainly tried elsewhere. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 14:20, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I have given @Alltheuser an 'only warning' for spamming us with rubbish. My antivirus showed their site as infected and blocked it. Any attempt to add dubious links or personal blogs will result in them being blocked. Nick Moyes (talk) 15:52, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank-you. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 16:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

@Alltheuser, if it is your website, any request you make to remove it from the blacklist will be declined. See here. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 14:36, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

@Edward-Woodrow: @Vanderwaalforces: Just to be clear, that site tecnofy.xyz isn't on the blacklist. The entire .xyz TLD is blacklisted. Requests can be made to whitelist specific pages (not domains) at MediaWiki talk:Spam-whitelist. Requests from site owners or anyone with a conflict of interest are summarily declined. ~Anachronist (talk) 05:49, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@Anachronist oh, right. That makes sense now. Thanks for clearing. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:41, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

How to use nobold and small at the same time?

Hello,

How would you use these two together to make sure something is not bold and is small?

{ {small | example } } and { {nobold|example} }

Thanks KatoKungLee (talk) 01:26, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello @KatoKungLee and welcome to the Teahouse.

It's not necessary to say no bold considering it's not Wikipedia main font.

Just these below are fine:

{{small|Example}}
Example

🛧Layah50♪🛪 ( 話す? 一緒に飛ぼう！) 03:31, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

User:KatoKungLee, I've only ever seen {{nobold}} in infobox headers containing character sets that are never supposed to be bolded or italicised per MOS.

That said, to "double up" on text formatting templates, the syntax is to nest them, like {{small|{{nobold|example text}}}}.

and <big> are no longer supported by all browsers, so using templates is preferable. Folly Mox (talk) 06:59, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

How to further edit my page to make it pass

Hey team, the link for the page I set up is here: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Draft:Sora_Ventures

I have edited it multiple times but it just doesn't meet the standards. I was wondering what exactly I can do to make it pass, thanks! Since most of the sources I supplied are already secondary and stating facts Leestc (talk) 03:59, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello Leestc. I clicked on your Reference 3 and got "404 page not found." I know nothing about cryptocurrency, so I have no knowledge on what your draft needs to state to show notability. You may want to reach out to people at WikiProject Cryptocurrency and WikiProject Finance & Investment (links are on your draft's talk page) and ask for advice. Best wishes. Karenthewriter (talk) 04:21, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Karenthewriter, thanks for pointing that out! I've edited it. Leestc (talk) 02:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Leestc, this draft is strange from the very start. A reference normally backs up the proposition or propositions that it immediately follows, but this draft starts Sora Ventures^[1] is a Venture Capital firm headquartered^[2] in Taipei, Taiwan. Thus the first reference seems to back up the implicit claim that Sora Ventures exists, and the second that it's a venture capital [no need for capitals] firm that's headquartered. But its existence is demonstrated later, and (perhaps with a few exceptions) every firm is headquartered. -- Hoary (talk) 06:44, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Hoary, thanks for the concern. Why I put headquartered is because every venture firm (such as pantera, a16z) have headquarters in a specific city, hence why I put the wording like that. Any suggestions as to how you would phrase it? Leestc (talk) 02:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Leestc, I suspect that what you want to show is a reference for the claim that it's headquartered in Taipei. If so, then ... a venture capital firm headquartered in Taipei, Taiwan.^[2] As it is, you're just giving a reference for the claim that the company is "headquartered" (somewhere, somehow) -- an uninteresting fact because, as you say, every venture firm has headquarters in some city or other; whereas the reader might not know, and might want to know, which city. -- Hoary (talk) 05:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Hoary, thanks for the clarification, I've edited it. Are there any other suggestions that you have regarding the subject? Leestc (talk) 08:22, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Leestc, and welcome to the Teahouse. When a brand new editor immediately starts by trying to create an article, and works on no other articles, experience shows that the editor very often has a connection with the subject of the draft. Please clarify what connection you have with Sora Ventures. "I have no connection" is a perfectly acceptable answer, but if you are in any way connected with them, please read about editing with a conflict of interest. ColinFine (talk) 10:18, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Hey @ColinFine, I have no connection with the subject of the draft, hence there would be no conflict of interest. But it is my first time creating an article, hence any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated, thanks! Leestc (talk) 02:53, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying that, Leestc.

I've just looked at the first few sources. The current first one (Cryptoslate from December) and fourth one (Cryptoslate from this month) are largely based on interviews, so are not independent. The second one does no more than mention Sora. Wikipedia is not interested in what the subject of an article says or wants to say about themselves, or what their associates say about them. Wikipedia is only interested in what people who have no connection with the subject, and who have not been prompted or fed information on behalf of the subject, have chosen to publish about the subject in reliable sources.

Please read Golden rule, and see which of your sources matches all of those criteria. If the answer is None, then Sora is probably not currently notable according to Wikipedia's criteria. ColinFine (talk) 13:22, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @ColinFine, understand your point of view, and I've removed the sources that only mention the subject. Again I have no connection to the subject, but these links that I put as reference are all public on the internet for everyone to see, such as the subject moving headquarters, its a fact and not unindependent. Let me know if its better now and can resubmit, thanks! Leestc (talk) 04:54, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi again, Leestc. I accept that you have no connection with the company.

The fact of the subject moving headquarters may indeed be a verifiable fact, but why is it significant for an encyclopaedia article? Reading your draft, I'm going "Why is any of this of general interest?" Most of the main paragraph is unsubstantiated, vague claims. Who says it is "one of the first digital asset backed funds in Asia that is still actively investing today", and why is that of any significance? Even if it has over 80 portfolio companies, so what?

This is why the recommendation is always to start with the sources - reliable, independent, substantial sources - and write the article based on them. If several commentators have thought it worth the investment of time and effort to research a company, and write about it, then Wikipedia will take note (that's why we use the sometimes problematic word "notable"). But if nobody has, Wikipedia is not interested. ColinFine (talk) 09:55, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Hey @ColinFine, thanks for the response. I've further edited it to sound as neutral as possible. After looking at Pantera Capital's page they also have sentences that are verifiable online, so I will leave the headquarters part in. I'll resubmit and see if its enough to pass as a subject. Leestc (talk) 12:36, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Leestc, I'd remove the Crunchbase source from the draft since it is unreliable and is deprecated per WP:CRUNCHBASE. Thanks! Tails Wx (they/them) ⚧ 02:59, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Hey @Tails Wx, understood, edited! Please let me know if there are other suggestions, thanks! Leestc (talk) 08:22, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

A mistake...

Since I'm italian and I know English enough, I've translated a page and create the draft Russian Tientsin concession, but I noticed that it actually existed. So...

Can anybody delete the page pls?
When I go in the English page, I don't see the link to the Italian page (better:I see it grey) and same in the Italian page, Can anybody fix this? I don't know how.

Thank you, Bruno Romanin (talk) 05:16, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@Bruno Romanin: If you want to delete a page you created, tag it with {{db-g7}} to request speedy deletion by the page creator. ~Anachronist (talk) 05:37, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

And for the 2nd thing? Anyway, thank you so much. Bruno Romanin (talk) 06:07, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Fixed Bruno Romanin (talk) 06:15, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@Bruno Romanin: Oops, sorry. I trust you found the "add language" link in the language drop-down? ~Anachronist (talk) 14:00, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Anywhere I can request assistance in verifying an article?

Is there anywhere I can call attention to helping verify an article?

I was reading Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum, specifically the section on the escape of his wife Haya and found some rather worrying issues. Sources were used to support content they made no mention of. I think the section could use attention but I don't have the time to verify it all, there are quite a few references I'd have to read. FossilWave (talk) 11:43, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@FossilWave There are over 270 page watchers for this article. So, if you have concerns, I'd suggest you explain them on the talk page at Talk:Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum and invite some of those editors there to address your concerns. You can always add a {{failed verification}} after a statement of fact that is not supported by the inline citation. If you did that for one or two such statements, your concerns about lack of time would be appreciated in the context that you have, at least, tried to mark some statements for attention. I hope this helps. Regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 12:59, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@User talk:FossilWave - For the article, an assessment may be requested here. Regards, JoeNMLC (talk) 14:04, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

notifications when someone replies to me on a page's talk

I'm not subscribed to any page's talk, but I'd like to be notified by email when someone replies to my comment on a page's talk (not my own user page). In my Preferences, is there such a notification? I have selected notifications for "mentions", but sometimes a reply doesn't mention me. Thanks. rootsmusic (talk) 23:19, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

User:rootsmusic, if you go to Special: Preferences, click "Editing", and then turn on "Enable topic subscription" and "Automatically subscribe to topics", this should have the effect you're seeking. Folly Mox (talk) 01:03, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Folly Mox! rootsmusic (talk) 01:32, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Folly Mox I've just done the same with a couple of article talk pages, and will no doubt subscribe to many more article talk pages, but where are my list of subscriptions located? Danstarr69 (talk) 12:04, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@Danstarr69 They are at Special:TopicSubscriptions. Thanks for your question: it prompted me to discover something I had thought about but not found until now! Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:19, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Michael D. Turnbull how do I get there? Danstarr69 (talk) 15:06, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Michael D. Turnbull I've now found that you get there through preferences (although there's probably another slightly quicker way).

However I've created my own quick link button to it on my user page Danstarr69 (talk) 15:13, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Wow, thanks @Michael D. Turnbull! No idea that was there. Valereee (talk) 16:19, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Article for inclusion

Please, I believe that article is appropriate for inclusion in Wikipedia and has now met all the requirements. I used the top sources from the top 5 newspapers in Nigeria and I need an experienced volunteer to review and publish it on wikipedia. Draft:BJ Sam (Singer) Mmmmm90 (talk) 15:48, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mmmmm90 Hi and welcome here. Put the following {{subst:submit}} at the very top of the draft article to submit it to AfC so that reviewers can review it. Hope this helps. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:01, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mmmmm90, are you the person who was operating the blocked accounts Aniekan7777 and Rubiesar? 199.208.172.35 (talk) 16:14, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

OP has now been blocked (and draft deleted). 199.208.172.35 (talk) 16:19, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Remove IP address

I accidentally made an edit without realising that I was not signed in to my account. Is there a way to have my IP address from that edit removed or switched so that my account name shows instead? ViveLaSuisse (talk) 16:26, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

ViveLaSuisse Hello and welcome. There is no way to change an edit history so that an edit by an IP is then assigned to your account. If you don't want your IP visible, you can request that it be oversighted. 331dot (talk) 16:28, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I'll try that. Thank you for your help! ViveLaSuisse (talk) 16:45, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

How can I prevent opinion sources from influencing bias?

This guideline is a little confusing to me, epecially "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective"

How does Wikipedia uphold the Neutral Point of View guideline when all claims made must be from sources which largely hold bias in themselves? Is it not inevitable that opinion sources hold some bias in the things they report, such as selectively choosing what to report on to fit their political leanings? Even if you are allowed to cite opinion sources, how do you ensure that the opinion does not leak into the article?

I don't want to choose articles to cite from that may be placing undue weight on certain aspects to fit their leanings so would love some advice on this.

Thanks TenToe (talk) 17:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, TenToe. That issue is dealt with in the very first sentence of the Wikipedia:Reliable sources guideline, where it says making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered. Sources that are clearly opinion should never be used to verify statements of fact in Wikipedia's voice, but can be used to verify the opinion, attributed such as "Political commentator John Jones said that . . ." or "The editorial board of The Daily News said that . . ." Cullen328 (talk) 18:35, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi Cullen328. Thanks for your response. So where the guideline says "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective", such sources should only be used when stating opinions held about the article's subject, as opposed to information about the nature of the subject itself? TenToe (talk) 22:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

That is not what I said, TenToe. A biased source is not the same as an opinion source. For example, the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal are biased in favor of upholding the US Constitution and American values. That does not mean that all of their articles are opinion articles. Similarly, mainstream newspapers in the UK or France may have a bias in favor of their national values. That is natural and to be expected. Not all bias is bad, but summarizing a variety of reliable sources helps mitigate the bias in an article. Cullen328 (talk) 22:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I see. Apologies for the misunderstanding. When I said opinion sources, I meant to say biased sources.

So a biased source (such as WSJ and The Times) can be used to state fact, so long as the source is reliable.

However, an opinion source (such as The Guardian's opinion pieces) should be used only to verify opinion, such as in a 'critical reception' section of an article, or can it also be used to verify facts? Like if one of the writers says 'John Jones has done so and so', I can use that to cite that John Jones has done that thing? TenToe (talk) 17:20, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

User page

What should my user page look like and contain? Wobbler107 (talk) 18:47, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Wobbler107, and welcome to the Teahouse. A user page is completely optional: some longstanding editors choose not to have one. But most editors choose to create one, with some information about themselves as Wikipedia editors. A little information about their lives outside Wikipedia is acceptable, as long as it is not promotional (and younger editors in particular are advised not to reveal anything that identifies them in real life).

See WP:UPYES and WP:UPNO for what you may and may not put on your user page. ColinFine (talk) 18:58, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Ta! Wobbler107 (talk) 19:11, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Creating a source

To verify a source for a few edits I've made, I have photos a yearbook which is the only verifiable evidence I have. How do I go about using that as a source? Joerezi (talk) 23:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

In most cases, you can't use private yearbooks as a source - it is unpublished to wider public. If you cannot find reliable, published source about something, it's best not to include it. Ca ^{talk to me!} 00:16, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@Joerezi I'm not 100% sure Ca advice is necessarily quite right in all situations. If the yearbook was a publication produced and sold by the school, and not just a few sheets given to its pupils, then it's likely copies would be available through local libraries, and thus be deemed a proper publication, and available through inter-library loans - and especially so if it had an ISBN number on it (which I think came in around the time you're referring to). The problem with this edit is that you did not cite a source, and thus @User:Tacyarg was quite right to revert it. Putting notes in an edit summary is simply not sufficient - citations need to be in the text of the article, and visible to everyone at all times. I always remove unsubstantiated additions of alumni, but would not do so if a citation to a published school yearbook were included. So, my advice is to reinsert it using a proper citation of title, publisher, year and page number). Nick Moyes (talk) 10:46, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I found this source which contradicts Joerezi's claim about him going to Cardinal Gibbons high school. I would also note that the high school that was already in the article and that this source says he went to is in a completely different state to the school Joerezi claims. Lavalizard101 (talk) 14:04, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I have photo evidence that he was at the school I mentioned as a senior, but I can't use a yearbook as a source, so there's nothing I can do at this point anyway Joerezi (talk) 15:27, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

How can a photo prove someone attended a school? It might prove that they were physically present on school grounds, but not that they were a student there. 331dot (talk) 15:29, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

It's a yearbook there's multiple photos of him in it including his name Joerezi (talk) 15:30, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Joerezi, how can you be sure that it's the same person and not somebody else with the same name? "O'Hurley" is not a particularly exotic surname (we have articles on four different people with it) and "John" is both a very common forename and completely congruent with Irish ancestry. In the US alone there are probably dozens of people named "John O'Hurley". {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.140.169 (talk) 19:40, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Joerezi, this source verifies that you are correct. O'Hurley attended Cardinal Gibbons High School for his senior year only. You can cite that source. Cullen328 (talk) 20:07, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Citing a record.

I'm writing a draft and have included a description of the physical appearance of a record. How would I cite the record itself? It's a Columbia Patriotic Series Record from 1914, "Boys in Khaki, Boys in Blue" by Stanley Kirby, Flip side, "Your King and Country Need You" by Harrison Latimer. Here's an image from Discogs of the disc in question, https://www.discogs.com/release/26662835-Harrison-Latimer-Stanley-Kirkby-Your-King-And-Country-Need-You-Boys-In-Khaki-Boys-In-Blue/image/SW1hZ2U6OTMyMDY3ODA=. Do I need to cite both sides of the record or just one side? Thanks in advance! Clyde Jimpson of the Arkansas String Beans (talk) 17:21, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Clyde. In general, if you can't cite a secondary source for something, don't mention the something. There are exceptions, but on the whole this is a good rule of thumb for what should go into an article. ColinFine (talk) 18:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

My understanding (which could be wrong) is that published items - which include recordings except for self-produced ones, probably - exist in their own right and do not need secondary sources to prove that they exist. I did some of this myself back in 2016 when I created the list of releases Celtic Music (record label) (note also, that there were some potential numbers that I could not trace; my guess at the time was that those had never been released, but the question was open). In earlier articles I gave links (as references/citations) for every recording to external listings like discogs as "sources", but those links got deleted by some enthusiastic editor ("Wikipedia is not a link farm" or similar), hence my understanding that such links are not necessary or are even frowned upon. Regarding your particular question: I would use standard discographical practice; for a single or 78, that would be "Title of side A"/"Title of side B" I think, but you should check some standard discographies; if the artists are not the same on each side; you would cite them individually as well. However please be aware that my knowledge of this subject may be incomplete and others may have more complete or accurate advice on this. Tony 1212 (talk) 19:51, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks so much. Only thing I dont know is the formatting for citing records. Clyde Jimpson of the Arkansas String Beans (talk) 21:03, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Just look at the source (via edit view) of any page that does this already, in a style you wish to emulate. You should be able to find suitable examples without much difficulty. Tony 1212 (talk) 22:23, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Some more info here: Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lists_of_works#Discographies Tony 1212 (talk) 23:32, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

At the risk of confusing you completely - I always thought that, to some degree, you can format discographies to "suit the material" and/or your own editorial preferences. For example, my own "discography" efforts (lists of titles) tend to comprise bulleted lists, see e.g. see Isla Cameron#Discography. I thought this was fine, however now see that another editor has written both "This section needs additional citations for verification" and "This section should be written as a table.". Actually if I could be bothered I might possibly dispute both those statements, however... By contrast, someone else's discography for Robert Johnson at Robert Johnson recordings#Singles does use a table, so that is perhaps a format you might prefer to emulate... Good luck. (As you can see I am just an editor, not an admin or article reviewer :) ) Tony 1212 (talk) 06:28, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Discographies/style#Citations and references, each item in a discography doesn't need a separate citation; a single general citation can cover the whole lot (excepting controversial or surprising notes, which need individual inline citations). Per WP:RSP, Discogs.com has been discussed numerous times, and the general consensus is that, because it is a "user-generated" site, it is mostly unreliable. However, Allmusic.com is probably reliable for its discography information, its material is staff-generated and other than BLP-related information (which is questionable) it should otherwise be fine for discographies. --Jayron 32 12:39, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Regarding styling a discography - my advice would be, just get the information/items in there in a format you are happy with; to quote other recent advice on a different topic, "others can restructure, reorganise, or reword them later without your assistance" (thanks Folly Mox). All entered text is available to be further reformatted at some point over its Wikipedia lifetime so its initial format is not something to worry about too much :) Tony 1212 (talk) 20:30, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

What's wrong with my sandbox?

User:LOOKSQUARE/sandbox

every {{big}} template shows up as {{{1}}} LOOKSQUARE (👤️·🗨️) talk 21:47, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@LOOKSQUARE I’m not sure, but when I replaced one of the  tags with a {{red}} transclusion, it showed correctly in the edit preview, so I’m guessing it will have something to do with that. Not sure exactly what though. A smart kitten (talk) 22:01, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Looks like it is because of the equals signs - the parser assumes that everything before the equals sign is a parameter name, so where you have {{Big|SO}}, it is being interpreted as "color: red;">SO being passed as the parameter , which will make the parser treat all of the code as the first parameter, or by replacing the equals sign with {{=}}, which is a template that will later evaluate to the equals sign. Tollens (talk) 22:02, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Help in a potential edit war.

Hi, i've got a question here.

I've been editing the Drive 2011 article, and I decided to restore a banned user's edit, as it logically made sense to me. My edit was then reverted by an ip, with zero explanation. I decided to revert his revert, as he provided zero reason, no edit summary and upon checking his contribs he had a history of this behaviour, and was confronted on his talk page about it before. He then proceeds to revert it back to the original state.

I don't want to start an edit war, what should I do in order to peacefully resolve this small conflict. Thank you NotAnInsurgent (talk) 01:48, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, NotAnInsurgent. The answer is simple - scrupulously avoid all edit warring behavior. Edit warring is counterproductive and leads to blocks. In this case, the subject of the disagreement is utterly trivial. Stop trying to restore an edit of a banned user, since both versions have the same meaning. Cullen328 (talk) 01:56, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

I understand, thank you. NotAnInsurgent (talk) 01:59, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Does this article meet the GNG criteria?

Does the article meet the GNG criteria? Also can you check to see that the article is cited properly. User:Pjanvi1008/sandbox Pjanvi1008 (talk) 13:16, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

@Pjanvi1008 Welcome to the Teahouse. I realise I'm not addressing your question, but my immediate reaction to the lead paragraph was to ask myself which part of the world this person's position relates to. Is it India, Texas, South London? I have no idea, and I could find no simple answer. I feel you may have assumed the reader already knows lots of things that you understand, whereas that probably isn't the case. Nick Moyes (talk) 13:44, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. There's a lack of WP:CONTEXT. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 13:51, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Individual’s position in the world has been clarified along with some additional info on background and works Pjanvi1008 (talk) 02:11, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

@Pjanvi1008 Your current references #3 and #4 could be combined into one using named references. However, Wikipedia consensus is that CESNUR is not a reliable source (see WP:RSPS). Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

English Variation

Hi, I'm editing Project Zomboid and I was wondering what english variation I should use

The article talks about a game set in the USA, but the development team is British and Canadian

Thanks NotAnInsurgent (talk) 02:15, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

@NotAnInsurgent: Since it is an existing article, use the variant already in place. RudolfRed (talk) 03:14, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

NotAnInsurgent, it's about an "upcoming" game, but one whose "latest stable release is Build 41". I am confused. -- Hoary (talk) 04:48, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Understandable.

Project Zomboid is technically in beta, it's been in beta since it's release around a decade ago. NotAnInsurgent (talk) 04:50, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Ah. Mention of beta status would be a help. -- Hoary (talk) 04:54, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Good thinking, I'll update it when i have the time. Love the talk page btw NotAnInsurgent (talk) 04:54, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

NotAnInsurgent, the pattern currently used isn't (or the patterns currently used aren't) obvious to me. That being so, what I'd do in your situation is suggest on the talk page the use of OED spelling. People with more appetite than I have for searching for "ardour", "gaol", "jail", "defense", "pretense", "realise" and the like would be welcome to do so, and/or to argue against me. And if nobody did, I'd go ahead and prescribe and use "Oxford" (OED) spelling. -- Hoary (talk) 07:26, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree, It would make sense to use Oxford, as it's closest to both British and Canadian English. Thank you for your help. NotAnInsurgent (talk) 08:35, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Can someone take a look at this

this looks inappropriate Cohere Technologies ? 2607:FB91:34F:8A13:AC39:8391:6763:803 (talk) 17:15, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello. What is inappropriate about it? 331dot (talk) 17:22, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

The article seems to me to just about demonstrate notability, and is not too promotional. It's very thin, though, and could use a lot more meat on its bones, and perhaps more balance from adding some less-than-entirely-positive content.

Perhaps more non-controversial details like address, number of employees, etc. can be gleaned out of the inevitable puffery on its website, https://www.cohere-tech.com/, and added, though as a non-independent source this of course cannot contribute to its notability. More Reliable sources entirely independent of the subject (and its press releases) might also yield further facts from a more disinterested viewpoint. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.140.169 (talk) 22:46, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Candidate for draftifying, perhaps? It's interesting that the article was written by a new account who seems to know how to write articles. ~Anachronist (talk) 23:13, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Well, at least they're not a single purpose account. Perhaps (like me) they've been editing for quite a while, and only recently decided to create an account. (I've been a regular for around 20 years, but have never created an account, though I might decide to do so some time in the future.) {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.140.169 (talk) 04:04, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

We could slap some tags on it, though...notability seems to be given, but, as has been mentioned, more independent, reliable sources would do some good. Lectonar (talk) 10:31, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Citing Discogs

Hello. I am using Discogs as a partial source for my discography. I know Discogs is not considered reliable but it does host pictures of the record discs I am researching. Since I am using information from the physical discs themselves, should I cite the discs instead of Discogs? Clyde Jimpson of the Arkansas String Beans (talk) 18:17, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Please do not cite Discogs, per WP:RSDISCOGS. Please find another source. You may be able to find assistance at Wikipedia:WikiProject Discographies. Cullen328 (talk) 18:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I provided an answer that is related to this on your previous post under "Citing a record." In a nutshell: I believe that if a record exists, it is "self documenting" (a separate source does not need to be cited to verify its existence). Others welcome to weigh in here, though, if my understanding is wrong. Tony 1212 (talk) 20:00, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Also note, even if Discogs is not acceptable as a secondary source, you can link to material there (within reasonable limits e.g. not too many items!) via an "External Links" section if you believe it provides information a reader would find of value that is not available elsewhere. Tony 1212 (talk) 20:03, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Clyde Jimpson of the Arkansas String Beans Cullen328 Tony 1212 Discogs is excellent for one thing imo, and that's for finding real names and aliases.

I update IMDB daily, and on the rare occasions I update a soundtrack (once I've added each individual to the music section first, mainly to get new names on IMDB, so they can be linked in the soundtrack section), songwriters and artists nearly always use their real names for songwriter credits in films and TV shows.

There's at least 3-5 big name music company websites I've stumbled across in the past, when searching to see whether a songwriter/s and the artist/s were the same people, however they're mainly for big name artists.

However Discogs is perfect for finding out the real names or aliases of smaller artists, which you can then use to find better sources elsewhere. Danstarr69 (talk) 12:28, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

No, it REALLY isn't. "The real names or aliases of smaller artists" is square in the middle of WP:BLP territory, and you absolutely shouldn't cite Discogs, a mostly unreliable site, for that information. If you want to use it for your own edification, or to chase down better sources, that's one thing, but basically never cite Discogs in Wikipedia for biographical information. --Jayron 32 16:15, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Jayron32 clearly you have trouble reading. Danstarr69 (talk) 20:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes I obviously do. Hi, we haven't met. I'm Jayron32, and I'm a total asshole. Sorry about that. Carry on. --Jayron 32 11:58, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Convention/style for city gov'ts in the infobox

In the info box for New York City, under the heading of government there's just the type of government, along with the mayor and the name of the governing body. For San Francisco, there is a list of supervisors, as well as the state legislators. Is there any convention regarding this? Should all cities have larger representatives? And what about for smaller towns, should they have the city manager and the mayor as the two such as in San Mateo, California? Artwhitemaster (talk) 07:21, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Artwhitemaster! The place to find this information would be the template page for the city infobox, {{Infobox settlement}}. There will be documentation there that should explain what best practices are. If the documentation is lacking or unclear, then you can start a discussion on the template talk page (it's a widely used template, so you're fairly likely to be able to get a discussion going). Hope that helps, and feel free to ask if you run into any difficulties! Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 15:21, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Almost all cities in the United States are part of larger counties. San Francisco is unique in that it is both a city and a county with the same borders, so it is appropriate to list the members of the county board of supervisors there. New York is unique because it consists of five counties which overlap with its five boroughs. For example, Kings County is geographically the same as Brooklyn. Cullen328 (talk) 17:27, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

As for city managers in places like San Mateo, Artwhitemaster, cities in in California can either be organized with a "strong mayor" form of government, where being mayor is a a full time job with significant powers, or a "weak mayor" form of government, where the role is largely ceremonial, and the day-to-day power is in the hands of a professional city manager. In the second case, listing the city manager in the infobox seems appropriate to me. Cullen328 (talk) 17:35, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Just to further elaborate, cities in the U.S. are a very varied and messy lot, and you're likely to find that what makes sense for one city, or for some subset of all cities, isn't applicable to others. There is no universal standard, and thus the infoboxes for cities may, by necessity, end up looking very different given the very different way that cities are organized across the U.S. (and even moreso around the world). --Jayron 32 12:44, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Doreen Virtue

Former new age author from California who converted to fundamentalist Christianity–can someone please check if she meets SIGCOV/GNG?

If not notable for a standalone article, she can get a sourced mention on New Age#Christian perspectives. 118.149.73.154 (talk) 10:02, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi IP – not without sources, she doesn't, and preferably multiple secondary and reliable ones at that. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:21, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

The only maybe WP:N helpful thing I found was [5]. But she is on Rationalwiki and Fandom:[6][7], and has been published in CT:[8] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:08, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

However, I have hits on JSTOR and ProQuest, there may be sources. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:13, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Article has been deleted three times before see here [9]. Theroadislong (talk) 11:14, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Ah, a challenge! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:38, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Pre-Colombian project

Hello. I mainly edit on the French Wikipedia where I participate in the Pre-Colombian America Project (that is America the continent obviously). On the French Wiki there is only this one project for all Pre-Colombian history. So I searched here and Discovered there was an Inca projet. However this project was inactive. I really only do articles about the Inca, so the Mesoamerica project doesn’t really help. Instead I searched for a Pre-Colombian America project and found nothing.

So now I’m here in order to ask if there is any (actif) project concerning Inca/Pre-colombian Andean history Reman Empire (talk) 13:39, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Reman Empire! Any of the projects listed at Talk:Inca Empire are a possibility; WP:NATIVE might be one. But in general, most projects on English Wikipedia these days are not very active; it's just not how most editors organize. Best wishes with all your work! Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 14:05, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

@Reman Empire Adding to Sdkb has said, if you do find a relevant WikiProject - even a currently inactive one - take some time to find and understand the Article Assessment Tables. These show all the articles which have been assigned to that Project. Then look at the column headings to see what level of importance they are, then to the row headers to see what quality assessment they've been given. High importance, 'stub' or 'start' articles are the best ones to view to see if you can improve them for the greatest return on you time. Click the number in the relevant cell to see a list of those articles.

If you read and coe to understand WP:ASSESSMENT, you may even find that some articles have since been enhanced, yet their quality assessment has not been upgraded, and you could fix that. WP:RATER is a helpful tool for that. These are useful tasks that a lone editor can work on to improve, even if others feel the project is no longer that active. That could well change, of course! Nick Moyes (talk) 14:13, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Sten Philipson

I am Sten Philipson. On the wikipedia page with presentation of my person there is a message: This biography of a living person needs additional citations for verification. What kind of 'citation for verifications' is needed here? There are valid citations on the page already. Best regards Sten Stenskonto (talk) 14:27, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

@Stenskonto:

Courtesy link: Sten Philipson Hi! Wikipedia:Reliable sources describes what we're looking for. For yourself as an academic, the ideal source would be something like a profile in a reputable mainstream newspaper that talks about your life story, research, etc. Reviews of your books in peer-reviewed academic journals are also helpful. I would suggest that you avoid editing the article yourself because of the conflict of interest you have, but you're welcome to give us links to sources that we could use to improve it. Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 14:34, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

To add to what @Sdkb has said, @Stenskonto- currently the only source on the article is one that verifies that you're a Swedish ethicist- everything else in the article in unsourced! We therefore have no way of knowing if the listed date of birth, graduation, thesis, publications, and various works are true or not. Wikipedia:Verifiability is a key principal on Wikipedia but as we have millions of articles all written by volunteers, a great many of them are sadly of poor quality.

If you have some published, secondary sources that are from reliable places and are independent from you that backs up all the statements in the article that would be useful. Qcne (talk) 15:04, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Oh, and sources in Swedish are fine. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 15:30, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

@Stenskonto Even the first external link is now giving a "404" error. For some basic information, Wikipedia does allow primary sources (see WP:ABOUTSELF), so if you have personal webpages at the institutions you have been associated with, please supply the links. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:22, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

For example, the archive of that page at the Wayback Machine could be turned into a valid citation for non-controversial details. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:46, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Where to request draft review?

Hi, I submitted Draft:Cornitos for review. I checked the relevant Wikiproject pages, but was not sure where to ask for help (review request queues don't seem to have activity for 3 years). Please help understand the process. Sabih omar 16:56, 24 August 2023 (UTC) Sabih omar 16:56, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Sabih, and welcome to the Teahouse. What kind of help are you looking for? You have submitted your review, and in time a reviewer will get to it, but there is no way of telling how long that will take.

If there are specific matters you would like help on, you could ask here, or at WP:AFCHD. ColinFine (talk) 17:09, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

@Sabih omar You only submitted the Draft for review yesterday and currently there is a large backlog of reviews, so it is likely you will have to wait some time. Meanwhile you can continue to improve the draft. The main issue is that companies need to meet the relevant notability guidelines. The citations you have used which are based on interviews don't do that: you need more sources of the type described here. Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:28, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

block quoted stuff

i have seen block quoted content that is italicized and sometimes it is not. which is the better way according to the WP MOS? Iljhgtn (talk) 16:46, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

@Iljhgtn Normally not italicized unless quoting a foreign language. See {{blockquote}} and MOS:ITALQUOTE for more details. Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:34, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

so if it is normal english blockquotes, not italics. Iljhgtn (talk) 17:36, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Correct, @Iljhgtn. There's only one small exception in this section, which deals with italics being used to mark a particular usage as a term of art, but obviously this applies to a very short selection within a passage, not the whole thing. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 17:42, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

i was just asking about the use of italics or not for a block quote. Iljhgtn (talk) 18:34, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

i appreciate your response too though Iljhgtn (talk) 18:34, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

I know, @Iljhgtn. The MOS bit I linked also applies to blockquotes, same as any other quote. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 18:38, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

ok Iljhgtn (talk) 18:39, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Rock Hill Mo. Police Dept

How can I incorrect an article without sources except for me. All news about myself as Police Chief in Archives apparently and to old to fine, the article needs to be corrected. Thank you, Terry Good retired Police Chief of Rock Hill Mo. "1997-2004 Hired in 1972. Ginger133 (talk) 17:57, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Ginger133, welcome to the Teahouse. Unfortunately, if you are the only source for the information, there is almost nothing which can be done. If you have an official website and you post the information there, some of it may be usable, but only if it meets the criteria laid out at WP:ABOUTSELF - basically, nothing controversial, nothing about third parties, and only in small amounts. The other option is to convince a journalist or researcher to publish something which contains the correct information - we could then cite that piece.

Since you have a conflict of interest, please do not add such information yourself. Make an edit request on the talk page of whichever article you want to add the information to. - presumably Talk:Rock Hill, Missouri. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 18:06, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

The section Rock_Hill,_Missouri#Police_and_fire seems excessively long for a town with under 5000 inhabitants. Maproom (talk) 18:24, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your response, I think the reason for the long article Rock Hill is in the middle St. Louis city and County, very busy City but dang beats the heck out of me why Iwas left out worked there 35 years. Ginger133 (talk) 19:23, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Citing a URL Source

I have reviewed WP text on citing a URL. My particular problem is that I have sources from Proquest. As you may know this is not a free service. One must be logged in from an institution with an account. The URL varies a bit with the account. Logged in from New York Univ. (NYU) my link is (in one case): http://ezalumni.library.nyu.edu:2048/login?url=https://www.proquest.com/newspapers/ professor-nominated-novel/docview/440313129/se-2?accountid=33843 I am told that the Proquest document ID is 440313129. Should I just cite the DB provider and document ID rather than giving the entire link that I have used?Oldsilenus (talk) 19:08, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Oldsilenus! You can use Template:ProQuest. So like this: <ref>{{cite journal |blah=blahblahblah |id={{ProQuest|440313129}}</ref>. Let us know if that gives you any difficulties! In general, for services like that, you always want to find the stable URL if one exists, and to use something that allows you to input the ID number rather than a full URL. Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:23, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks very much! In, I guess, my too hurried review of the templates I didm't notice one for Proquest. Unfortunately, for this BLP JSTOR which always givs a stable URL has not been very UsefulOldsilenus (talk) 20:52, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

NOT A SOCKPUPPET

My accounts have Been Blocked when I am Not A Sockpuppet

WP:SOCK for The Policy. 84.64.168.121 (talk) 20:31, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

There will be a message on your user talk page about how to appeal the block. You need to follow that process. RudolfRed (talk) 20:52, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Edited draft, Need re-review still pending from more than 2 months

Draft:Tanneeru Nageswara Rao

Need re-review for the draft. I'm confused weather the content is sufficient or need any other sources. Can someone help me out of this. Sandy2205 (talk) 12:16, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Sandy2205. It is not clear how Tanneeru meets the strict WP:NPEOPLE criteria. Only people who meet the criteria set out in that links can have a Wikipedia article at this time. Qcne (talk) 12:42, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello Sandy2205,

I am not a professional reviewer, but I am happy to give a couple words:

The last source [10] is from Youtube. Please do not use Youtube as a source (see WP:YOUTUBE).
The last sentence Nageswara Rao worked as Jaggayyapeta Division Private Schools Association President from 1997 to 2008 is unsourced.

You had external links in the body of your articles, but I saw you removed them. This is great.

Please see other volunteers' words for the issue of notability.

Cheers, -- TheLonelyPather (talk) 12:50, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

@Sandy2205: Looking upon your contribution record, it seems that the draft has been the very first thing you work on since you created your account. I would suggest that new users like you should edit existent articles first before creating an article, so that they would know the policies and conventions of Wikipedia better. Cheers, -- TheLonelyPather (talk) 20:54, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Deleting Notices On My User Page

I, of course get notices sent to my user page. Some of these are quite old and I would like to delete them. I have looked and see no way to do this. Is an edditor (who is not an admistrator) able to do this?Oldsilenus (talk) 19:14, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello and welcome to the Teahouse. You may simply edit your user talk page to remove the notices, just as you would edit any other article or page. Be aware that(especially for a recent message) that removal is considered an acknowledgement that it was read. 331dot (talk) 19:17, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry If I phrased things inorrectly. I did not mean notices posted directly to my page. I meant the noties posted in the menu at the top right of each page. These are shown in the "Inbox" symbol. The menu contines "talk sandbox menu preferences ..." I have 7 messages, some are 3 years old and are of no consequece at this point.Oldsilenus (talk) 22:56, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

@Oldsilenus: Welcome to Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1198. If you're referring to

, there is no way to permanently delete them. If the badge displaying the number of unread notifications is what's bothering you, there should be a Mark all as read you can click in the header of the dropdown menu. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 01:59, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Reach Plc Digital Online Brands

Normally when I add a reference from Reach plc digital online brands, I add the name of the newspaper it has come from, which is usually listed at the start of an article next to the writers name, rather than the name of the online "Live" site.

However recently I've noticed the names of the newspapers don't seem to be listed in the articles online anymore, unless it's just on certain "Live" sites.

Should I waste my time searching for the name of the newspaper every time I add a "Live" reference?

Or should I just add the "Live" website names from now on? Danstarr69 (talk) 20:24, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

@Danstarr69, I think you'd probably be alright with either, so long as you stay consistent within any given article. If the newspapers still have individual staff, then including their name might be preferable, with Reach plc in the |publisher= field. But that only really comes into play if you're trying to get an article to GA/FA status. Short of that, anything that reasonably facilitates verifiability is fine. Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 03:09, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Adding links to an article

Trying to add the fossil finds time part to the page 'Rutiotomodon', which I have found seems to require a citation, but one that cannot be easily accessed (visible as a number). How can I make it invisible? I am basing my change off of the page 'Trilophosauridae', but with edits to things such as time and citation. Mangox88 (talk) 18:02, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mangox88, could you explain a little further (with direct links if possible)? I don't fully follow what you're trying to do. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 18:13, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I am trying to edit the timeline bar on Rutiotomodon, but it appeared on comparison with other pages that a citation was needed. I tried putting in a citation in the style of trilophosauridae, but it appeared visibly, which is different to Trilophosaurus. Does the fossil range need a citation? Mangox88 (talk) 05:09, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mangox88, ah, okay, I understand a little better, I think. You're trying to avoid the ugliness of having the citation display on a separate line in the infobox. Citations are very important for verifiability, so I wouldn't make it invisible. However, if you move the citation to the body where the same info about its temporal range should be mentioned, you then won't need it in the lead. Hope that helps! Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 05:14, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! Mangox88 (talk) 04:59, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Cleaning up articles that looks like an advertisement

I stumbled upon an article for Armbian, which doesn't conform with the Wiki standards, but I don't pretty much know how or where do I continue with cleaning up the article or at least, make it look like an actual article than an advertisement for it. Thanks in advance. Signed, Lucss21a | Talk | Contribs 06:40, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

My two cents: that article is garbage. It cites nothing but the product's website. I see no reason for the article to exist. Maybe some subject-matter expert will notice it in an AFD and disagree, but it looks hopeless as-is. Pecopteris (talk) 06:45, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I have added a notability tag to it, but a cursory search didn't turn up anything like a good reliable source, so imho this should go to WP:AFD to be evaluated. It isn't an obvious speedy-deletion candidate, though. Lectonar (talk) 06:48, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

It's badly written. It doesn't make it clear what Armbian is. I suspect that the word "image" in its first sentence doesn't mean what most readers are likely to think. Deleting the current version would leave room for someone to write a comprehensible article on the subject, if they can establish notability. Maproom (talk) 07:23, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I think almost everyone will agree that this article should go to AFD, so I've sent it there. Pecopteris (talk) 07:31, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Order of templates on the top of the article

Is there any convention to those templates on top of the article -- like what order they should go into? I am wondering if I should put the translation notice or the more sources on top. Artwhitemaster (talk) 06:34, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi Artwhitemaster. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout#Order of article elements mentions some things but not that detail. PrimeHunter (talk) 08:18, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Input on BLP Quality Reliable Sources for confirming that an exhibition, award, or event occurred.

Hi! I edit living artist and designers pages and have questions about referencing that an exhibition or event occurred, that an artwork was in a certain museum or collection, or that an award was granted. I would appreciate other editors opinions on if I (and other editors who are doing the same practice) are referencing correctly.

Once it has been established that the article itself has reliable sources, and I want to establish or add to an exhibition or collection list, can a museum website (like MoMA NY), their collection catalog, or press release be a reference to document that the show occurred when a 3rd party independent reliable source is not available?

For example on these pages:

I'm looking at: WP:REPUTABLE: "Proper sourcing always depends on context; common sense and editorial judgment are an indispensable part of the process.", WP:CONTEXTMATTERS: "Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content.... and Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in the Wikipedia article" & WP:RS & WP:BLP

What do you think?

-ArtistWatch MuseumSurvey (talk) 19:56, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello ArtistWatch MuseumSurvey. I would say that primary sources such as those are adequate for establishing that a particular event or exhibition occurred, but if the only sources for the event are primary then I would question whether the event should even be mentioned in the article. ColinFine (talk) 08:22, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Duplicate articles

Shingebiss and Shingebis seem to refer to the same myth. My understanding is that duplicate articles should be merged. However:

a) Shingebis has multiple problems

b) I know nothing about this myth (I was just looking it up and found the two articles)

I'm mainly a reader and very new to editing. What would be the best course of action here?

Thanks in advance! Mogtek (talk) 16:58, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi Mogtek! My suggestion would be to copy from Shingebis to Shingebiss any useful information (along with its references) not already there, and then make Shingebis a redirect to Shingebiss.

I am being lazy in assuming that 'Shingebiss' is the 'better' (more commonly used or more authentic), or at least equally good, spelling. If 'Shingebis' is actually preferable, the opposite though more laborious transfer of information could be done, or one could perform a Page move juggle Others may have better suggestions, though. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.140.169 (talk) 19:54, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mogtek Hi, I merged Shingebiss into Shingebis. Regards Vanderwaalforces (talk) 08:41, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Wiki politics

Hello. I mainly edit on the French wiki on articles concerning the Inca, so I usually don’t get in to Wiki polotics. I did cause quite a mess lately because of my, I do admit somewhat irrational, excitement about a complaint about foundation expenditures. Still I’m not getting the big picture. I think I understood the general organization, but I’d like to know if there are any cercles and such. To know some deeper politics. So here I am asking for answers Reman Empire (talk) 08:54, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't know if you're familiar with the WP:SIGNPOST, but there may be articles there that you find interesting. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:36, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Reman Empire Specifically, WP:Wikipedia Signpost/2023-08-15/News and notes. Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:08, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

And there's more in the archives. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:09, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I want to expand an article but don't know how!

I have been working on an article but so far couldn't have been able to add other topics to the main article Zahirdaud24 (talk) 10:06, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Zahirdaud24 WP:TUTORIAL may be of help to you. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:08, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

You recently moved Haji Abdullah Shah to mainspace. To continue work on that article, you should edit it in the normal way, as explained in the tutorial. Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:11, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

thanks Zahirdaud24 (talk) 10:15, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Whenever I Google search the article, the search results come up with talkpage instead of the actual article.why am I facing this issue Zahirdaud24 (talk) 10:17, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I suspect it's due to how wikipedia's search engine indexing works: see WP:NOINDEX for details but basically Wikipedia asks search engines not to index articles which are less than 90 days old and have not been patrolled. Once one of those conditions are met, google should start to show the article in its results. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 10:57, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

citing a diagram

What is the best practice for citing a diagram? It is quite simple and can be represented in ASCII like this:

others ↔ for-the-sake-of-which ↔ others

(possibility of Dasein’s Being)

↑ ↑

↑ ↑ towards-which ↑ ↑

\ \ (work) / /

\ ↑ ↑ /

\ equipment ↔ equipment /

(ready-to-hand entities)

I could also, however, create an image file from the book in which it appears. Or maybe some other alternative is preferable?

Thank you for your assistance!

Cheers, Patrick J. Welsh (talk) 21:58, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

I could also, however, create an image file from the book in which it appears. Please don't violate copyright. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 22:15, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

That's what I'm trying to avoid! Richard Polt made the diagram, and I want him to get all the credit. Patrick J. Welsh (talk) 22:45, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

I see. You want to insert the diagram into the article? Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 22:46, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. It's a helpful representation of the relationships among concepts that are easy to lose track of in discursive presentation. Patrick J. Welsh (talk) 22:49, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

...and thus we come into the domain of copyright and fair use, not my area of expertise. Also, depending on how close a representation of the diagram your ASCII version above is, it may or may not be a problem. I'll leave the mucky copyright business to more experienced editors. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 22:51, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your attention to my query! Absent other advice, I will use my ACSII representation and cite it with the sfn template in the same way I would with plain text. Patrick J. Welsh (talk) 23:18, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello PatrickJWelsh,

A fact or concept cannot be copyrighted.
An expression like a diagram can be copyrighted, depending on the complexity (this varies between countries).
If you translate a copyrighted work into another medium, that's a derivative work under US copyright law.
When editing a Wikipedia article, you must release your edit under the Creative Commons license at the bottom of the page.
You cannot release a derivative work under a new license without the permission of the original creator.

Regards, Rjjiii (talk) 00:41, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

You can use {{Cite book}} to cite your source. But I think you mean "copy" instead of "cite" like a reference? RudolfRed (talk) 22:33, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I would consider this a quotation. But it's visual and I wanted to check in about best-practice. Patrick J. Welsh (talk) 22:47, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

In case it helps, the diagram appears on p.61 of this book: https://books.google.com/books/about/Heidegger.html?id=-CXZN12gHioC.

Also, I should add that I have no connection at all to the author and no particular bias towards his interpretation of Heidegger. I'm just drafting out what I hope will be an improvement on a rather shoddy page about a major philosophical figure (however deeply, deeply flawed he was!). Patrick J. Welsh (talk) 23:11, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

@PatrickJWelsh Just a note to point out that the ASCII diagram doesn't display correctly on my phone. I suspect the screen is not wide enough. You could get assistance with creating an acceptable drawing at the WP:Graphics lab, provided the copyright hurdles are cleared of course. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:16, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

So if you go the ASCII route, use a screen-shot to turn it into a .png or similar, and upload it to Commons. Easier to insert, resize and replace if needed. -- Verbarson ^talk_edits 13:22, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Why was my new entry rejected?

hi there! I just submitted my first-ever new Wikipedia entry and it got declined. I carefully read the reasons for the decline and I guess I'm still puzzled. The subject of my article has been cited by many reliable secondary sources. Can you offer advice please? Thank you! https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Draft:Chris_Molanphy MarcdePezenas (talk) 13:40, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Asked and answered at the Help Desk. @MarcdePezenas, please only ask in one place (Teahouse or Help Desk), not both. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 13:57, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I note that your draft only has two references, which I would not consider "many", and the first one falls under WP:ABOUTSELF, as it's produced by the subject, and thus not indication of notability – a core Wikipedia concept. Notability is a test to see whether a subject deserves its own article. Your draft was declined as not proving notability. Generally, subjects need significant coverage in multiple reliable sources, but there are exceptions. Would the declining reviewer, Theroadislong, like to comment? Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 14:07, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I already commented at Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk#August 25. Theroadislong (talk) 14:11, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Can I have a chat with a Wikipedia Editor

Hi, I would appreciate it if I can talk to an editor? I keep getting this Draft:Freeme Digital rejected and I am really curious to know why. 1. How can a child of this be approved and not the parent company? 2. How is the controversy page here not enough for notability? I mean this incident was and is still talked about in African music ecosystem till forever.

I really need answers.... Factscheq (talk) 13:45, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

You can go to the user's talk page to chat with that user. Cwater1 (talk) 13:58, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Your draft was rejected, meaning it will not be considered further. Try moving on. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 14:03, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Factscheq: didn't you ask this at the AfC help desk recently? Your question there has been answered. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 15:00, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Questionable draft article question

I've been around the Wikipedia block, but it's been a long time since I've been back to this side of the block. Re-learning to edit/review.

How are draft articles treated when the subject appears to be either sarcasm/humour or outright disrespect (can't assume PoV). Is the subject ignored until it comes up for review, or is there a process to suggest deletion? e.g. Draft:Translender (identity) CMacMillan (talk) 15:36, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I've tagged it for speedy deletion as a blatant hoax. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 15:38, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Help for article

Hello, I come here seeking assistance. I had recently made corrections to the page of Brothers of Italy based on the links provided on the page. I have read the rules of Wikipedia and my changes were based on the rules. I understand that all information must be based on links.

However an editor called Vacant0 has undone them all and called them vandalism. I do not know why they undid my change but what I did was not vandalism. It upsets me that my changes can simply be dismissed like this.

I don't know what to do now since Vacant0 never presented an argument for me to contest or accept so I'm asking for help here. I wish to have my changes passed so that it isn't a edit war. Braxmate (talk) 06:10, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Braxmate, and welcome to the Teahouse.

The right thing to do is to open a discussion on the Talk page Talk:Brothers of Italy, and ping Vacant0 there (as I have just done here).

Please see BRD for how Wikipedia editing is supposed to work - you made a bold edit, Vacant0 reverted you, and now you discuss it. It must be upsetting to see your edits described as vandalism (which has a specific meaning on Wikipedia), but you need to ask Vacant0 why they thought that. ColinFine (talk) 08:37, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

How will I do BRD if one side doesn't make argument? Braxmate (talk) 09:58, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Your edits were not based on the rules and you did not correct anything, you have actually violated the consensus for the infobox that was reached on the talk page. If you want to change anything related to the infobox, you will need to start a discussion on the talk page and provide evidence that support your claims. Vacant0 (talk) 08:42, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes they are based on the rules, the rules say all information must be completely supported by links and no modifications to what the links say.

Wikipedia:Verifiability Wikipedia:No original research

The unchanged article has information which are modified, the links say "first far right" but the article says "first right wing", all given academic links say "neo-fascist" but article says "some academics call it neo-fascist" and some links are used to describe what is "radical right" which don't even mention Brothers of Italy.

And why are you calling my corrections vandalism and what consensus are you talking about? There is nothing on the talk page. Braxmate (talk) 09:57, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

All previous discussions are archived. See Talk:Brothers of Italy/Archives/2023/January, Talk:Brothers of Italy/Archives/2022/September, and Talk:Brothers_of_Italy/Archives/2022/February#Infoboxes_and_political_spectrum. Vacant0 (talk) 10:03, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

February 2022 archive is not understandable. September 2022 archive says weak consensus because no one gave good links. And in January 2023 archive you didn't even give "neo-fascist" as an option, and no one gave any link, you all just made different personal opinions.

What kind of consensus is this? My changes are supported by the good given links.

What do you want me to do? How am I supposed to make the corrections? You won't make an argument, you won't answer on talk page but you will undo and you have still not answered why are you calling my corrections vandalism? You are just giving me bureaucracy instead of discussion. Braxmate (talk) 10:30, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Please have this discussion on the talk page - not at the Teahouse. If discussion goes nowhere, your other options are described here. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 14:01, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

And please remember that Wikipedia is a collaborative project: your goal in any discussion should be "How can we reach consensus?", not "How can I make them admit that I am right?" On the other hand, Vacant0, it seems clear that Braxmate is editing in good faith, so I suggest you withdraw the accusation of vandalism. If somebody is editing in good faith they are not doing vandalism. ColinFine (talk) 15:55, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Dr. William Longshaw

Dr. William Longshaw was born in Manchester, England April 26, 1836. I have copies of originals like the the Census of 1841 Manchester, England. Willliam was 5 years old when he travelled to the United States. I do have a copy of the census that I did upload to wikipedia. Toshiye6 (talk) 19:11, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello. What is it that you are referring to? 331dot (talk) 19:12, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I think he refers to his edits to William Longshaw Jr. Nick Moyes (talk) 19:16, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:No original research may be a relevant read. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:17, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

It seems that both his birth date and place of birth are in dispute, according to the note in the infobox. Census records alone are not convincing since it is commonplace for two people to share the same name. Cullen328 (talk) 19:20, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I have proof of his birth place. It's a 1841 census in Manchester England. How do I upload this document? Toshiye6 (talk) 19:47, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

To reiterate what Cullen328 says above, how do you know it's the same William Longshore? 'William' is a very common name (not in the social sense, of course!); Longshaw is not unusual, and there must be multiple "William Longshaws"s from that era and milieu. The article's references do show that there are contradictory claims about his date and place of birth (unfortunately, there are also multiple "Manchester"s), but you have no proof (so far demonstrated) of a connection between the person in your census record and the subject of the article, it's just one possibility of many. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.15} 51.198.140.169 (talk) 20:08, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

How do you know that it is not a different person named William Longshaw? There is no need to upload a census report, as it is of no value on Wikipedia. Cullen328 (talk) 20:15, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

It is Father Is William senior. Mother is Margaret and William junior. This is the Manchester England census 1841. This is from Ancestory .com. Also the ,

Communication and Outreach Division

Naval History and Heritage Command

Have the same facts as me. I have his acceptance letter from the entrance to West Point. (202) 433-7880 142.114.202.157 (talk) 21:46, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

The correspondence of the parental names certainly lends weight to your suppositions, but it is not conclusive proof, and the date and place discrepancies with the published references are unexplained. (My conjecture is that maybe he was born before his parents' wedding, and his date and place of birth were obfusticated in the US records to conceal this, at the time, shameful fact, but my imagining this is of no use whatever). Nontheless, Wikipedia only accepts what published sources say, even when primary documents (such as census entries — see WP:Primary, secondary and tertiary sources) suggest that they are in error (see WP:Verifiability, not truth). Note also that Wikipedia disallows sources with user-contributed information as unreliable (see WP:Reliable sources): this includes Ancestry.com (and of course, Wikipedia itself). A line has to be drawn somewhere, and that's where it is.

A way out of this dilemma might be to more explicitly detail all the contradictory sources and their conflicting information (perhaps in the article's existing Note a.) so that the readers can do their own weighing up, but we can't just decide which one we prefer (even if we could agreed) and suppress the rest.

You and Longshaw, the declared relative who is possessed of all these primary documents (and perhaps some secondary ones, with which we can work) need to discuss these matters further with the dissenting editors on the article's Talk page, which is the preferred venue rather than here, and reach a concensus on a solution. Splitting the discussion over two or more venues is not helping, since we are having to read both to see all the declared evidence. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.140.169 (talk) 23:27, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Well I do have all the corect files. Wikipedia is know for incorrect information. Ancestory is reliable I have all the files. We agree to disagree! I have birthdates dting back to the 1700's. Dr. William and me share the great,great,great,great grandfather. So Wikipedia is not a reliable source! I'll just have to accept that some of the information is wrong on wikipedia. I know what is true facts! Lorraine Longshaw Toshiye6 (talk) 15:41, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

So Wikipedia is not a reliable source!
@Toshiye6: Even Wikipedia doesn't consider itself to be one. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 16:43, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Here's what you need to do. Write a historical article (not an encyclopedia article) that concisely, lucidly and persuasively makes your point. Of course, this article must satisfy academic standards. Find a historical journal that is reputable -- is not a mere vanity or predatory enterprise, and is peer-reviewed (by academic historians, not monomaniacs or fringey people) -- and specializes in this area. Submit it to the journal. If it is conditionally accepted, rewrite it and resubmit it as required. Wait for its publication. After its publication, on Talk:William Longshaw Jr., point to the publication, and invite an unrelated editor to consider what it says, describing yourself as its author and thus disqualified from writing up the matter in the Wikipedia article. -- Hoary (talk) 22:09, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Birth dates

Hello. I am planning on making a draft and have some questions about birthdates. How do I know which date to put. I'm quite certain it's 1878 but I have two conflicting sources saying September 16 of that year and the other saying September 18. If I'm not sure do I just put 1878 and explain the discrepancy in the text below? If it helps, the September 18, 1878 date comes from the subjects own hand written for his WWI draft card. Thanks in advance! Clyde Jimpson of the Arkansas String Beans (talk) 15:53, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello Clyde Jimpson of the Arkansas String Beans! See WP:BIRTHDATE. I'd personally just use the birth year or September 16/18 and make a footnote. Asparagusus (interaction) 15:57, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for helping sort this out. Have a good day! Clyde Jimpson of the Arkansas String Beans (talk) 17:04, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

visual editor

there are notices at the start of some articles that mention redirects and disambiguation pages etc. Check out, Daylight saving time for a good example of what I am talking about. i want to be able to make those from visual editor, source editor is not easy for me to use. how can i do this? Iljhgtn (talk) 19:02, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

its like ""DST" redirects here. For other uses, see DST (disambiguation)." is what im talking about Iljhgtn (talk) 19:02, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Iljhgtn: That is from the {{Redirect}} template. I don't use VE, but my understanding is that one of there is a drop-down or menu option for placing templates. See Help:VisualEditor#Editing_templates RudolfRed (talk) 20:15, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

fix ping to @Iljhgtn: RudolfRed (talk) 20:15, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Iljhgtn Hello and welcome to the Teahouse! This is how you make hatnotes and such in Visual Editor: In the visual editor first type in two curly braces ({{) then type in and enter "for" in the search bar. A menu will then pop up which can allow you to change the template parameters to make it say certain things. Regards, #prodraxis ^connect 20:17, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

African American and not African-American

MOS shows that we should not use "African-American", instead we should use "African American".. what is the best way for me to search out this incorrectly hyphenated use and correct for it across Wikipedia? i have heard of some kind of wiki web browser??? Iljhgtn (talk) 16:58, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I think you're talking about WP:AutoWikiBrowser. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 18:06, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

maybe, would that help me to search the entire wikipeida for "african-american" instances so that I can work on correcting those to "african american"? Iljhgtn (talk) 18:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I have never used it myself, but making changes like that seems to be one of the main functions of AWB. -- Random person no 362478479 (talk) 20:44, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Is "This Day In Metal" allowed as a source?

I'm fixing up a certain partial block request about a tour date that happened and one source that seems convincing to me but I don't know if it's convincing to others is this. I would like to know if this source is allowed. Thomasthedarkenguine (talk) 18:48, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Thomas and welcome to the Teahouse. The place to ask is WP:RSN - first search the archives for that page to see if it has previously been discussed, and if not, post your question there. I observe that it has a staff of named writers, which is a good sign, but it needs further investigation. ColinFine (talk) 19:01, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

ColinFine, I've asked Thomas to begin here at Teahouse to learn to assess sources, as the folks here are experienced and generally patient at helping users understand the basics. SKDB's response below is what I was hoping he'd get here: no, This Day In Metal doesn't look like it has editorial oversight, so see if you can find something better. This may be an iterative exercise. Valereee (talk) 12:26, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Well I'll be honest, we don't have to add something right away at times, maybe I'll look for more sources. Side note, I have been looking at so many pages that needed something removed and so far I got one that I found. If you're curious why I havent been doing requests lately it's because I was looking for things to have removed and working on that Pittsburgh event list. Thomasthedarkenguine (talk) 20:49, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Thomasthedarkenguine, you could ask at WP:RSN for a more definitive answer. But on brief investigation, the staff writers have only their first names, which is basically pseudonymity, so that's not great. The site has no about page that I can find, and the parent site's about page, here, doesn't say much of anything about its editorial standards. So my inclination were I a writer would be to try to find something better, but to use it if there's nothing better, but only for basic noncontroversial details. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:05, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

It's nothing controversial, I'm just wanting to have a show added on The Spicy Meatball Tour. Thomasthedarkenguine (talk) 19:11, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Submit my page to public: Unicode/Versions

There must be a page for Unicode/Versions on Wikipedia, because there's one in Wikibooks and not one in Wikipedia. AshtonTameirao (talk) 20:46, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

See Unicode#Versions. Maproom (talk) 21:08, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

But that's not it, but my article needs to be published to public so everyone can edit my page. AshtonTameirao (talk) 22:07, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Draft automatically became article?

I tried to create a draft for Stenogale and it became an article? Did not mean to do this, is there a way to move it back into draft space? Chainsawpunk (talk) 19:07, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I moved it to Draft:Stenogale. Ruslik_Zero 20:09, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Chainsawpunk: You blanked the article before it was moved to draft. I just unblanked it. Please proceed developing it. ~Anachronist (talk) 22:20, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Usurping an article without destroying history

Hi, I've been working on cleaning up the disambiguation and primary topics for the 3 people named Francois Morel. Before, the primary topic was the composer, even though pageview statistics are strongly in favor of the actor being the primary topic. I have added a disambiguation page, and moved the composer to Francois Morel (composer), but am unsure how to move Francois Morel (actor) to the automatically created redirect other than copy and pasting, which would destroy the history. Morel8910 (talk) 18:39, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Morel8910: WP:RMTR exists for this purpose. Well technically admins and people with page mover rights exist for this purpose, but if you don't know how else to flag one down, that's the page to make the request. Thank you for not copy-pasting. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 18:56, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I have page mover rights (I moved the composer). But I don't know how to move the actor to the main page since the redirect exists. I'm basically looking for technical help Morel8910 (talk) 18:59, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion, when I say page mover rights, I meant Wikipedia:Page mover, which is more rightly called 'extended page mover'. The page on extended movers mentions the 'delete-redirect' right, which is the thing you're lacking. You'll be wanting that first page I mentioned. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 19:06, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! Morel8910 (talk) 19:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Morel8910: A page move like you propose would be controversial, to base a primary topic decision on page views. I have moved the disambiguation page over to the primary title instead. If you want to make one of the three articles on the disambiguation page the primary topic, see WP:RM to start a move discussion. ~Anachronist (talk) 22:32, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Where to report self promotion

I haven’t really done much with the moderation side of Wikipedia. However, I was reading a (relatively niche) article and noticed that a non notable book was cited as a pop culture example that apparently had a direct Amazon link to it in the article. I read some of the “drama boards” occasionally to pass the time and have learned that this kind of self promotion is pretty common. I took a look at the account that added it, and sure enough, the account that added this book to the page had the same initials in the username as the author of the book, and that they had more edits that were just the same thing. However, I’m not sure if there’s a special board to report it to or if just the regular incidents board is fine. I vaguely remember there being a place to report COI editing, but I can’t find it, so maybe stuff just blurred together in my head. Waverfangirl (talk) 05:19, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Waverfangirl: What article were you reading? – dudhhr^talk_contribs^she_her 05:24, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Wandjina This one. A depiction of this spirit was added to a game I like and I wanted to learn more about it/Aboriginal people’s thoughts on depictions of them. Waverfangirl (talk) 05:25, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@waverfangirl: remove it. it's useless. as for the editor, they haven't edited since august 2022, so reporting is unnecessary. ltbdl (talk) 05:36, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

forget it: i've reverted their edits.

fur future reference, the noticeboard for reporting conflict of interest editing is here.

and as for your userpage, requests for changing your username is here. ltbdl (talk) 05:50, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! Waverfangirl (talk) 00:30, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Cartoon disruption by ultras

I have been contributing to the essay Wikipedia:Why is BFDI not allowed on Wikipedia? and I honestly feel like I want to say this (This is based on a few statements I made on its talk page). If you don't know what that essay is about, basically a lot of people who are fans of an animated YouTube cartoon that does not meet GNG caused massive disruption over some years (but especially recently) over trying to shove an article in about their beloved show.

I feel as if a lot of immature kids are on Wikipedia who obsess over children's/preschool TV shows no one else cares about (preschool shows generally don't get more notable–especially in Wikipedia terms–than shows made for other audiences), to the point it can become disruptive and lead to blocks and sockpuppetry. User:Robert McClenon wrote an essay calling these people "ultras". I don't think they can understand the cues here that what they want to happen (i.e. a preschool show and its non-notable characters or settings being promoted by having Wikipedia articles) won't happen (due to a lack of notability and SIGCOV, which in turn could be because they're not relevant in today's world), and sadly they might ignore any warnings and continue until they get blocked.

This honestly makes me concerned, but I do have to feel sorry for those kids who need to understand that Wikipedia isn't just for their cartoons. Furthermore, these kids could be neurodivergent (I am autistic myself), so I can emphasize with them. They need to realize cartoons obsessions that result in things like this are not healthy. There are so many better things they could spend time on rather than just shoving shows into Wikipedia that just don't simply belong here. As CGP Grey said: "Your job is to work on you, and to make yourself an independent person in the world." NOT to spend time on stupid fancruft. 118.149.72.239 (talk) 21:43, 24 August 2023 (UTC) Addendum: some examples are listed on WP:LTA 118.149.80.254 (talk) 04:34, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Bang on. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 22:14, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Wow, I learned something today. Thank you, IP user. -- TheLonelyPather (talk) 23:30, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

The most current submission by ultras is Draft:Simon Edward Minter (Miniminter). Miniminter and Simon Minter are both currently redirects to the group, the Sidemen, and previous individual articles on Miniminter have been deleted as not notable. A common tactic by ultras is to change the spelling of the title. With regard to Dream Island, we have had Battle For Dream Island and Battle for Dream Island, for instance.

As I explain in the essay, ultras are sometimes mistaken for paid editors because of their stubbornness, but, when an editor says that they are not a paid editor, but a fan, I usually believe them. That does not mean that they may ignore notability, reliable sources, and neutral point of view. They often do ignore those policies, which is why they are often thought to be paid editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:34, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: Indeed, I mentioned that a lot of them are likely obsessive fans, which is why I am concerned. They could also be neurodivergent; I am autistic myself which is why I am concerned. Indeed they could have done other, more positive things in real life or contribute to more notable topics here, but let's stick to how to deal properly with these people on Wikipedia. 118.149.80.254 (talk) 04:34, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

As I've found out as a major contributor on IMDB, a lot of mainstream children's shows from the UK aren't notable enough for a Wikipedia article, as there's not enough information about them.

I'm mainly talking about shows from CITV (which will cease to exist next week after 40 years) on ITV the most watched channel for the majority of British TV history, although most people clearly have short memories.

Why do they have short memories? Partly because ITV is rubbish at promoting it's old shows, and likes to keep its records private, unless you're in the media yourself, then you can get access.

You can find out the basics most of the time, like the fact the show existed, when it was broadcast, a brief plot description, how many episodes it possibly had, and some of the cast and crew members.

However more detailed descriptions, most of the cast and crew, and the episodes themselves are nowhere to be found online at least.

I don't normally do children's shows, however I added/updated a few earlier this year when I randomly found out an actress from my city (who I had never heard of before), who mainly does theatre shows in the West End of London today, was one of the child stars in those shows. Danstarr69 (talk) 01:39, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Danstarr69: Indeed, I have seen some sockpuppetry go on with a focus on obscure British preschool TV series that I highly doubt are notable and hence deserve to be on Wikipedia, and which I haven't even heard of before (I don't live in the U.K. but do know some British children's television). I personally don't find it healthy. In my opinion, these kids should move on to more relevant media rather than stay stagnant in life with these obsessions. 118.149.80.254 (talk) 04:34, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm mainly talking about children's drama from ITV (which always beat BBC One in the ratings), rather than shows for toddlers, but still the fact remains.

Some of them were massive in the 80s and 90s, and are where a lot of the biggest names in British TV today started their careers.

However information about some of them is scarce.

The BBC have the BBC Programme Index (made from Radio Times TV and radio listings) containing every programme they've ever made, including all the spelling mistakes.

ITV, Channel 4, and Channel 5 however, don't have any public archives containing details about their old shows, and there's no TVTimes TV guide archive anymore. ITV used to have a partial programme index of around 8000 shows available to the public until around 5 years ago, but then they made it private, just like their entire online archive, which is based in the city next to mine.

There's many more places I can look like BFI Collections among other places (a lot of which I've added to my user page), but the majority contain just a brief summary of the simple stuff.

With ITV especially, which used to be made up of at least 17 regional franchises, which have had 100s of different names over the last 68 years, it's even harder to find out information for certain shows, especially when they were made by the region, specifically for the region, and weren't shown nationally at a later date.

For example, there's a Pop Idol/X Factor type show from the year 2000 which I randomly stumbled across in some old adverts, made by ITV's Yorkshire franchise, for Yorkshire, which I doubt was shown in any of the other ITV regions, which probably explains why there's no information about it online.

In case you're confused about ITV, it was basically like PBS, except it's funded by adverts, rather than donations.

I also recently stumbled across another 1990s children's drama, which I probably watched but don't remember, as I was 10 or 11 at the time, containing a former child actor as the star, whose former actress sister works as a teacher just a couple of miles from me (which I also found out by accident, as she's got married sometime in the last 10 years, so has a new surname). 3 of it's 9 episodes exist online, from old VHS tapes, but there doesn't seem to be much more information about it online. Danstarr69 (talk) 13:57, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Folks, please remember that WP:NOTFORUM applies to the Teahouse as well. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 14:05, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Isn't it literally a forum?

Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 14:14, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Danstarr69: @Robert McClenon: Some examples of these cartoon ultras are the Bucharest Wild Kratts and horror film vandal, HarveyTeenager, Caidin-Johnson, and the Pinkalicious vandal. 118.148.103.96 (talk) 01:02, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Hiatus

When a artist announces a temporary hiatus, how should that be reflected in their page? Should it remain 2000 - Present / or / 2000 - 2023 / or / 2000 - 2023 (Hiatus)? Ladybord (talk) 22:08, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse, Ladybord. If the source you have cited states that an artist has stopped being a creative artist, you can cite that source as saying that, at point X, they ceased being creative. 'Present' is not a useful term, as it depends on when one encounters it. Now? Or 30 years in the future?

I would suggest something like: "In 2000, artist X announced that they would stop working" [cite source]. Leave it to new sources to indicate if/when they resume activity. Nick Moyes (talk) 23:32, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification on this matter! Ladybord (talk) 03:29, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Draft:Crezl

This is a draft article for a new Korean cross-over quartet called Crezl. There is very little information available on the group in English, which was the motivation for creating this wiki article using articles in Korean. Could I get advice on how to increase the possibility of review and approval for the article if sources are written in a foreign language? I have tried to follow the Forestella wiki article as reference, as they have many citations written in Korean. In previous q I have posted here, suggestion was to use translation citation, which I have done. Anything else? Echohk (talk) 20:17, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi there! As for the sources, whether they are in Korean or English it does not matter; they just have to describe the subject in detail and be reliable. However, please read the comments submitted in the draft as well. You cannot use Namuwiki as a source as it is unreliable and edited by ordinary people just like Wikipedia. #prodraxis ^connect 20:23, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. Per previous guidance, I have removed all references and citations to Namuwiki... Echohk (talk) 21:11, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Echohk: I noticed references 16 and 17 are identical. Please don't duplicate references. Use named references instead to consolidate them together into a single citation, while still being able to cite it multipe times. See WP:NAMEDREF for guidance. ~Anachronist (talk) 22:15, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you so much, this was very helpful. Consolidated the citations, which helped clean up the reference list. Any other suggestion is greatly appreciated. Echohk (talk) 03:37, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Double entries, sort of...

There is a page on artist Monika Fleischmann which I am working on updating now. There is also a page on this artist at Monika Fleischmann and Wolfgang Strauss. What is the best way to handle this? Should they be merged, stay separate, etc? Thank you LWu22 (talk) 20:22, 25 August 2023 (UTC) LWu22 (talk) 20:22, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

You might want to discuss this with contributors at the other article, it looks like there's been activity there quite recently. You can try posting on their user talk page to get their attention, in case they're not keeping an eye on the article talk page. In any case, some useful questions to consider include:

- do reliable sources show that each one is independently notable enough to have their own article?

- if the combined article is split into separate pages Monika Fleischmann and Wolfgang Strauss, how much overlapping content would there be in the separate articles?

- how much prose (not lists of works, exhibitions, awards or publications) can be written about Fleischmann without involving Strauss?

Hope that helps, —2406:3003:2077:1E60:B664:BB58:22E3:BD8D (talk) 03:38, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Qingling Taga

Can someone else please handle the clueless (?) new user turning the abovementioned into an outright advert; I've already made two reverts. (Possibly connected with earlier reverted edits by other user / ip, all insist on changing the make to Isuzu.)
Thanks in advance! 2406:3003:2077:1E60:B664:BB58:22E3:BD8D (talk) 03:16, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Done. Restored the most recent stable version and warned the user on the talk page; though I see that the user already has been warned. SpaceEconomist192 ✐ 03:44, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Remove attached accounts

Hi there! I was reviewing my global account information and noticed that I currently have 78 accounts linked to my global account. These accounts were created by simply accessing the corresponding project's website. I was wondering if it's possible to detach these accounts from my global account? I don't wish an Armenian or Vietnamese account. Many thanks. SpaceEconomist192 ✐ 03:30, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

@spaceeconomist192: this is currently not possible. ltbdl (talk) 05:20, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

@SpaceEconomist192: they're not accounts per se, more like local branch offices for your global account; in any case, most are likely to be just empty placeholders with no edit history. The system sets them up when it sees you access a different language version of Wikipedia, so that if you decide to do any editing, it has somewhere to log your edit history. Don't worry about them, they do no harm and cost you nothing. :) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 06:25, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

To be perfectly clear, SpaceEconomist192, you only have one account. If you use your account on other Wikimedia projects, you may see an illusion that you have multiple accounts. But what you really have is a single account active on multiple Wikimedia projects. Cullen328 (talk) 06:46, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Aspect Ventures

Does anyone have time to merge this and delete the article. The one founder looks like she already has a substantial section on it.. the other needs a couple sentences.. Aspect Ventures 2607:FB91:8808:D6E6:AC39:D1F1:66E0:DB84 (talk) 07:40, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Translation

I started translating The Secret Belgian Army. When I went back to finish my translations dissapared. Can you help? Hentieger46 (talk) 10:43, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello and welcome. Your edits are stored in the edit history, but they were removed because you were overwriting the English article with your Afrikaans translation- you need to go to the Afrikaans Wikipedia to translate an article to there from here. 331dot (talk) 10:51, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

@Hentieger46 When you do translate an article from English, please follow the guidance at WP:TRANSLATEUS which has important information, including how to link back to the source here. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:30, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Citing Census and other Ancestry Record

Hello. I need to cite some census records and other things from Ancestry.com and I'm not quite sure how. Ancestry gives a source citation you could use but I'm just not sure how Wikipedia deals with it. Thanks in advance! Clyde Jimpson of the Arkansas String Beans (talk) 17:02, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

You probably shouldn't use Ancestry.com as a source, numerous discussions have determined that as a user-generated cite, any information in Ancestry.com should not be cited directly; in cases where Ancestry.com is being used as a host for documents such as census records, you would cite the census record as though you weren't usinG Ancestry, like if you were looking at a copy of the document in a library somewhere, you could just cite the original documents without reference to Ancestry at all. Furthermore, census records are of exceedingly small utility at Wikipedia, as noted in policy "Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses." I'm not sure what you're using census records for, but if you're trying to use them to show that a person lived at an address, or was a certain age, or had certain parentage or siblings, or whatnot, it's probably insufficient for Wikipedia to do so. You need a secondary source (as explained at WP:SECONDARY) that themselves published such information. --Jayron 32 18:21, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

The only thing I need it for really the subjects birth date as it can't be found anywhere else, the day he married his first wife and the 1900 census to show the fact that he lived in Philadelphia for a while. I believe these to be useful pieces of information that can't be found in secondary sources. I just don't know how to create a citation for a Federal Census, New York Marriage Index and Social Security Death Index. If using these pieces of information is really frowned upon though, I shall refrain from using them. Thanks in advance. Clyde Jimpson of the Arkansas String Beans (talk) 15:01, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Help to switch off

I can't get off Wikipedia, I had a particularly shitty interaction with a group of editors yesterday and to get over that have been editing Woodcote Park, and trying to reach out to friendly users. But I need to switch off, haven't done any proper work yet (which means I'll have to make that up) and have other better things to do. Really, I'd like someone to say I'm appreciated for what I do and then maybe I can just forget the negative stuff. I know this is perhaps an unusual request, given i'm not a new user and am axtually a host here. All the best Polyamorph (talk) 12:17, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Polyamorph Welcome here! Firstly, I want to let you know that you're "appreciated for what you do". Being a Reviewer, Page mover, etc isn't an easy job and you're loved for committing yourself here :) Secondly, You did a great job at Woodcote Park seeing your recent edits there.

Lastly, you just can't switch off because that's funny to me.

Regards! Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:40, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Polyamorph Anyone like you with >25,000 edits is clearly making a great contribution: congratulations! If by "switch off" you mean you would like to be blocked for a period, then I think that admins like Nick Moyes are happy to help. Mike Turnbull (talk) 13:10, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Polyamorph A quick look at your talk page shows that you provide a great help to other users - most recently helping someone out with citations - especially when you consider that not every editor you’ve supported will leave a message there to thank you (I’d wager that it’d be a minority). I don’t think I’ve seen you before today, but if the thanks you’ve been given - both on your talk page and here - is anywhere near reflective of the work you do here (which I have no reason to believe it isn’t), then you seem like the kind of editor this project could do with more of. And I’m certain that you’re silently appreciated by many other editors for the help you provide, and for the improvements you bring to Wikipedia.

If you feel you need to take a wikibreak, by all means go for it: it’d certainly be well-deserved.

All the best. A smart kitten (talk) 13:10, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Wow, thank you all so much. I felt embarrassed asking, and wasn't sure how well received it would be, but you guys are wonderful. Actually bought a tear to my eye. I'd also turn it around and tell you how much I appreciate your contributions here. I think maybe I will be taking a short break, you've really helped alleviate the negativity I was feeling. Thanks Polyamorph (talk) 13:44, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Polyamorph ❤️ Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:50, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Polyamorph I would be quite reluctant to give someone with your long and good-standing an editing block, as it might not look good should you ever feel you wanted to be considered for admin rights at an RfC. But there are other ways. See WP:WIKIBREAK and the wikibreak enforcer script at WP:BREAKENF. Sometimes one can feel burned out by spending so much time and emotional effort on Wikipedia. Getting time away, and making time for real friends and family is really important. But, yes, your efforts are certainly appreciated here. I guess you could also put the Wikipedia url on a blacklist on your own router - but that's not something I've ever tried. Nor can I recommend any specific browser extension, but one of these might be of interest if you use Chrome by default.

Best wishes, Nick Moyes (talk) 16:00, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Disabled javascript to be here. @Nick Moyes: the user that upset me considerably has followed me to Woodcote Park to instigated their preferred "formal name" in the prose I submitted. I consider this verging on harassment now, and would like it to stop. Best wishes Polyamorph (talk) 15:27, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Near East

Hello, the quarrels of Pakistani editors do not seem to stop, the fact is that there are many nationalities in Pakistan - Punjabis, Pashtuns, Balochs, Sindhis and others, well, I noticed that the editors on the history of Afghanistan and Baloch edit according to the rules of Wikipedia (actually) but the Punjabs do not welcome this, here is one of them https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1172364468 RamanBalach (talk) 16:16, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, RamanBalach. Sutyarashi reverted your edit, with an edit summay Unreliable per WP:RAJ, also it doesn't contain the claim of "Rind Baloch". Plus, atleast reply to messages posted on your talk page.

You then revert their revert with no edit summary. Your action is edit warring, and is not acceptable. Please review WP:BRD, and then discuss the matter as directed there. (Note: I am making absolutely no statement about the rights and wrongs of these edits: I have no knowledge or interest in the matter. I am simply directing you to follow Wikipedia procedures). ColinFine (talk) 17:00, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Ramanbalach has been reported to SPI Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Ali banu sistani. Lavalizard101 (talk) 17:06, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

User Sutyarashi (talk) accused of racism

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1131551905

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1131547359

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1169138069

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1159469798 RamanBalach (talk) 16:59, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

RamanBalach, those are edits to Wikipedia articles. They are not "accusations" of anybody for anything.

If you mean that you are accusing Sutyarashi of racism, you should read about no personal attacks. If you think there is a behavioural issue that needs addressing, take it to WP:ANI - but read the notes at the top of that page very carefully first. ColinFine (talk) 17:07, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Editor has been blocked as a sockpuppet. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:58, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia source for Wikipedia?

Hi!

I was looking at the Group 9 elements and I noticed that barely anything was there. Then I looked at each of the elements and saw that a lot was written, so can I use the elements' article as info for another article? UB Blacephalon (talk) 03:53, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

@Blacephalon, unfortunately no, as per WP:CIRCULAR, Wikipedia articles can't be used as sources. You are welcome to add reliable references that is used from one article to another! Tails Wx (they/them) ⚧ 03:57, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Am I allowed to use other articles for info to put there? UB Blacephalon (talk) 03:59, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

For Wiki as a source, no. If you would like to copy text from one Wiki article and paste on another Wiki article, you can do that and follow directions at WP:PATT. Tails Wx (they/them) ⚧ 04:02, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

It appears i dont understand the directions on that. Could you explain it in simpler terms? UB Blacephalon (talk) 05:13, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

So, if you want to copy text from a Wiki article and paste it on a different Wiki article, then you need to provide attribution – which WP:PATT explains. Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia also states Wikipedia's licensing requires that attribution be given to all users involved in creating and altering the content of a page. This applies for copy-and-pasting text from one article to another, as stated above. Hope this helps! Tails Wx (they/them) ⚧ 05:46, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

So I just have to say that I copied it and this is where its from? UB Blacephalon (talk) 06:00, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Yep! For example, copied content from Oklahoma; see that page's history for attribution. Tails Wx (they/them) ⚧ 06:04, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Huh. Is there any way I have to say it? Formally of course. UB Blacephalon (talk) 06:21, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Blacephalon, this is an informal project with great flexibility. Simply state clearly and unambiguously in your edit summary where, specifically, you are copying the content from, and for what purpose. You are the only person who can state your intentions clearly. That is the purpose of edit summaries. Cullen328 (talk) 06:29, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Ahh OK. Thank you! UB Blacephalon (talk) 23:22, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

How do I suggest a review to remove tags from 2012?

HI This page has substantially improved since the warning in 2012--but I do not know the process for suggesting that someone review it again? What is that procedure? The page is:

Clockwork Watch - Wikipedia https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Clockwork_Watch Thank you. LoveElectronicLiterature (talk) 16:33, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

@LoveElectronicLiterature Hello and welcome to the Teahouse. If I'm not mistaken, if you feel that the problems are adequately addressed, you can just go and remove them. There isn't a process for assessing problems with articles and tagging them; any user can do it by using templates. Hope this helps. Grumpylawnchair (talk) 16:58, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Ok, Thank you. I removed these tags:

FYI

– Removed tags to prevent accidental maintenance categorization. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:42, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

with the explanation that all of these issues have been resolved. Does anyone else review? LoveElectronicLiterature (talk) 18:53, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

There is nobody whose job it is to review such things. If there are people who have that article on their watchlist, they may notice the change and go and check for themselves. If you really want to get somebody else's eyes on it, you might ask at the WikiProject mentioned on the article's talk page - here, WT:WikiProject Science Fiction. I don't think the project's very active, but there may be people monitoring its talk page. ColinFine (talk) 20:11, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Orangemike is an active editor with a deep interest in science fiction. Cullen328 (talk) 23:23, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Cleanup section vs cleanup article

I'm looking at Iranian University Entrance Exam right now and two of the sections are not up to standard. Should I apply two cleanup sections or one cleanup article template? There are citations but errors in the typography. Artwhitemaster (talk) 23:34, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I'd use one template for the whole article. In a very long article that otherwise didn't require the template, it'd be best to apply cleanup section templates to the problematic sections individually. But with an article this small, I'd just do one template. The other reason for doing so is that there's a good chance that there are other typographical errors to be found elsewhere in the article. Pecopteris (talk) 23:56, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

How to cite info from Ancestry.com?

I'm trying to expand and improve the article on actress Amzie Strickland, but having a hard time finding reliable secondary sources that confirm her birth date, location, and parents. The only sources I can find that do are personal records on Ancestry.com. I was wondering if anybody could please explain to me how I can properly cite these records in her article? Please keep in mind that I will only use these records to attest her date and place of birth, as well as the identity of her parents. They will not be used in any way that contradicts the guidelines in WP:PRIMARY. Thank you kindly. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 23:09, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, CurryTime7-24. Per WP:ANCESTRY, do not cite Ancestry.com directly. Instead, cite the specific documents directly. Cullen328 (talk) 23:16, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 01:14, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

edited article disappeared

I am trying to submit my first article 'Arne Johnson', nuclear physicist and spent yesterday 6 hours to totally rewrite the article. When switching to the talk page to get some feedback, apparently everything disappeared, only some sentences at the end, that should not be part stayed in the text. Are there ways to retrieve what has been lost? Do edited pages disappear when switching to the talk page? RamonWyss (talk) 09:01, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Your draft is here Draft:Arne Johnson it has not disappeared? It requires re-formatting per WP:MOS before it can be accepted. Theroadislong (talk) 09:16, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Assuming you have edited the article on 25 August and there is no edit history of it. If you did not publish the edits before switching to the talk page, a pop-up box will appear saying "Leave site? Changes you made may not be saved". You will lose all your edits if you proceed to switch to the talk page. But sometimes, the Chrome/Wikipedia has a cache mechanism I guess? which stores your edit even after you close the tab without publishing it. And when you reopen your visual editor on the same article, all the content you have added/ edited will still exist. Jeraxmoira (talk) 10:57, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

A reminder that not everyone edits using Chrome, Jeraxmoira. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:16, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes. Not sure how other browsers work w.r.t this issue. Jeraxmoira (talk) 11:25, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I've had Firefox unload the editing interface on me because I tabbed into a different app. Save early and save often. Folly Mox (talk) 03:05, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Damodran Nair to Damodaran Nair

Per latest sources available on the internet, [11][12][13][14][15], I guess this should be moved? Jeraxmoira (talk) 06:48, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

@jeraxmoira: if you're confident, you can do it yourself. under "tools", click "move this page". if you're not confident, make a requested move. ltbdl (talk) 04:42, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! I have moved it now. Jeraxmoira (talk) 05:44, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Please am new here

Hello please I'm a new Wikipedia editor. First and foremost I would like to thank the Wikipedia theme on inviting me here to learn more and to become a professional editor. I would love to ask and to get guidelines on how to edit. I sincerely love to become an editor here on Wikipedia and I will love the guidelines and group of people or an individual who can support me by guiding me all through so I can be an editor who understand the mission. thanks. Chocobnj (talk) 10:06, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse, Chocobnj. Learning to edit on Wikipedia is a bit like learning to drive a car. It's never wise to get behind the wheel on your first day and set off at high speed along the motorway with no understanding of the rules of the road. A crash is almost inevitable. And I see you did encounter a few problems when you started here!

I have added a simple 'welcome' message to the top of your Talk Page with a big blue link to [[Help:Introduction|'Learn more about editing']. You should work through this to understand the basics of editing.

First off, my advice is to make small edits to existing pages; adding references to Reliable Sources etc, is a very good way to learn. Never add content that you 'happen to know', but always base what you add on properly published sources (see WP:RS) that others can access and verify (see WP:V).

Never try to start creating an article in the main part of the encyclopedia. If you do, and if it doesn't look properly encyclopaedic within 30 minutes of being created, it will be speedily deleted. This is to avoid rubbish content remaining visible in the encyclopaedia.

Instead, use our 'wizard' at this page to help you create a WP:DRAFT. Work on that for as many days or weeks as you want. And only when it resembles a short but well-cited article should you consider submitting it for review and feedback. It is essential that any topic you try to create an article about actually meets our Notability Guidelines. We have detailed guidelines for specific topics (such as this one for people. If you can't show sources that demonstrate how 'Notability' has been met, then I'm afraid it won't be permitted to go into the main part of the public encyclopaedia. You can experiment with editing in your own Sandbox, by following the link in the dropdown menu at the 'person icon' in the top right corner of every page (assuming you're viewing it in desktop mode, not mobile).

I hope this helps. We must leave it to you to spend time reading the guidance pages, as we can't hand-hold everyone. But we're here to answer specific issues you may encounter as you learn how to drive (=edit) Wikipedia. Good luck! Nick Moyes (talk) 10:30, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

You have had three attampts at articles Speedy Deleted, which strongly suggests you need to learn more before attempting an article again. Practice by improving existing articles. Given your history, do not move your drafts to mainspace. Instead, submit for review. David notMD (talk) 11:28, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Minor versus major edit

I carried out my first edit yesterday, and clicked the 'minor edit' box. However, having read the edit guidance more fully, I now realise it was actually a major edit. Does my mistake matter? if so, how can I rectify it? Gangnam Woodford (talk) 15:45, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello and welcome to the Teahouse. To answer you in a simple manner, the answer is no because you did not know at first and we all make mistakes but now you know better. Happy editing Volten001 ^☎ 16:12, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! Gangnam Woodford (talk) 16:14, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Article Translation

Hello, I intended to create an article in English, which was actually a translation of a Persian article. Due to the lack of sources in English, I made the article with minimal information, but still it is not approved. This article in Persian is very complete and comprehensive and includes many Persian sources, but unfortunately there is such a problem for the English translation.

Draft English article: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Draft:Mohsen_Bahrami

Persian article in Wikipedia: https://fa.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%85%D8%AD%D8%B3%D9%86_%D8%A8%D9%87%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%85%DB%8C TheRealRainbowFlick (talk) 09:08, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello and welcome. Please note that each language version of Wikipedia is a separate project, with their own editors and policies, so what is acceptable on one version is not necessarily acceptable on another. I cannot understand Persian but I do see that article is significantly longer- it is possible that a fully translated version might be acceptable, if it establishes that this man is notable as we define notability. It is not required that sources be in English. 331dot (talk) 09:12, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer. The article in Farsi has very reliable sources, but for English, there is only a summary of the sources, so it is much shorter than in Farsi. TheRealRainbowFlick (talk) 09:50, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Farsi refs can be used for an English article. David notMD (talk) 11:19, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your reply, unfortunately the administrators reject the request. Please check if possible. It is true that some English sources are not valid, but some sources such as YJC in Iran are considered government and official sources that are referred to. Also, the sources referred to in the Persian article can be referred again.

Draft:Mohsen Bahrami TheRealRainbowFlick (talk) 12:00, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, TheRealRainbowFlick. Sources do not have to be in English, but they do have to meet the criteria in the Golden rule. The one that people often don't understand, is independence. If it comes from Bahrami, his colleagues, his agents, his studio, it is not independent. If it comes from an interview with him, or a press release, it is not independent.

Looking at your sources (without being able to read Persian, or attempting to translate most of them):

1. is from Farsi Wikipedia. Wikipedia (any Wikipedia) is not a Reliable source, becuase it is user generated.

2. Biography. It is possible that this is independent, but it is much more likely that this comes from Bahrami or his associates, so it is not independent.

3. Biography. Certainly from Bahrami.

4. iMDB is not a reliable source, as it is user generated. See IMDB.

7. is a film review, which mentions Bahrami's name once. This is not significant coverage.

I haven't looked any further. But it is your responsibility to find at least three sources each of which meets all three of the criteria in golden rule. If you cannot find them, then you will know that Bahrami does not currently meet English Wikipedia's criteria for notability.

A lesser point: giving 10 citations at the end of one paragraph is ridiculous. If they are supporting the same information, then choose one or two of them. If they are supporting different pieces of informatyion in the paragraph, put the citations immediately after the specific information they support. ColinFine (talk) 15:50, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your thorough explanation, I put those sources for more information but I can delete them and only 3 reliable sources which are official news agencies. I realized that maybe the number of invalid sources harms the valid sources as well. TheRealRainbowFlick (talk) 17:29, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

how to avoid "Rv, not a forum" have to face being deleted 2 "Talk"´s comments ?

Hello, here is what has been reverted: https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Talk:Humus&oldid=prev&diff=1172168818

Maybe the ´half´ is forum-like to call from what ever, but I cannot recognize from what, that claim, that pronouncement.
If this is in consent with Wikpedia´s definition of forum and as unacceptable comment for "Talk", then this should be explained some-where, please, how to understand the difference those both.
So what, please, defines a clear to understand the difference of talk and forum ?
Thank You.
Visionhelp (talk) 15:08, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Are you looking for WP:NOTFORUM and maybe WP:TPG? Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 15:37, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Visionhelp, the purpose of an article talk page is to discuss specific ways to improve the article, based on what specific reliable sources say. It is not for general, unfocused discussion of the topic. Cullen328 (talk) 16:36, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

My intention is to improve.
My expectation to Wikipedia is the claims of Wikipedia already with reliable sources.
The statement "humus, is essential a waste product with little food value" cannot find a reliable source anywhere, please.
Pointing to it in "Talk" is not forum, please.
The claim of forum as reason to delete that, to my understanding, this all is being put from foot to head.
This just simple reason (the claim forum) this way, to me not defined clearly, allows to do what wants to be done.
This I cannot take really serious.
Thanks the interesst.
Visionhelp (talk) 17:04, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Visionhelp: I'm having some difficulty understanding your comments. Are you using machine translation? Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 19:57, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Visionhelp: The diff you linked to showed you commenting about the subject, not making any suggestions for improvements, and linking to a site that violates the WP:NOTHOWTO guideline. I can understand that the previous comment was also forum-like and am surprised that Plantsurfer failed to delete it, as it expressed a personal belief without citing anything. ~Anachronist (talk) 23:00, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

machine translation? No, I am just upset and indignant, with Your permission, please.
Such statement - as a required precondition for Wikipedia aricles - requires a reliable source "humus, is essential a waste product with little food value".
Pointing to it being labeled, defined as, explained to talking about the subject just has to confuse me very much.
I did some notes of knowledge with sources, no first hand sources, and not one of my notes is being welcome, not even OK. This I CANNOT take Wikipedia there as serious at all. What here is to face by me is a rule, that is, in my opinion, very just arbitrary usable. Sorry, not to handle for me. Visionhelp (talk) 17:40, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Is there a social aspect to being a wiki slave?

See above HollHopDrive123 (talk) 16:36, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Can you expand on your point? I think I see what you're getting at, but it's too vague for me to really engage. Pecopteris (talk) 16:37, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

No worries, I was just wondering if there's like a discord or something, like you would have in a job. HollHopDrive123 (talk) 16:42, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

There is indeed a discord. See here for more information. NW1223<Howl at me•My hunts> 17:01, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

wiktionary:slave#Noun casualdejekyll 17:46, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Kebede Michael

Not confident enough to handle these issues, requesting assistance from more experienced editor(s):

rev. 1161278177 (from June) is a complete blanking of "criticisms" section that was allowed to stand on the fifth attempt after being summarily reverted as vandalism the first four times. Is this intentional or was it just overlooked? (The IP subsequently attracted a 48 hour block due to further disruption elsewhere.)
These recent edits appear to have added excerpts from poems written by the subject of the article. Ethiopia's copyright is death + 50 years; the author died in 1998, so this is copyvio, unless fair use applies? There is no accompanying literary commentary or other article text referencing these excerpts in order to say something about the author, though. (The copyvio edits were actually reverted by ClueBot, but then the IP from (1) showed up and restored the content.)

Thanks in advance, 2406:3003:2077:1E60:14EB:96C2:62B3:8FD3 (talk) 13:47, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse IP editor. I am fairly OK with reinstating the 'Criticisms' section. The edit summary justifying its removal was invalid. There were indeed citations present. The fact that the key one was dead and not working is irrelevant. It's easy to find an archived copy of that citation on the Wayback Machine (see here).

To be honest, I've not yet read the source in detail, but I would point out that the criticism did not come from Arefayne Fantahun - they were just the author of the online piece (just one short paragraph) which otherwise simply reproduced already published criticism by Sahle Selassie B.Mariam in their 1990s "analysis of Kebede Michael's intellectual outlook".

I also suspect the quoted texts are a copyright violation unless already properly published elsewhere under an appropriate licence. They don't seem to be especially germane to the article, and we don't include lyrics or writings by other authors for the same reason. Nick Moyes (talk) 14:56, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for handling, as well as for the detailed explanation! I'm familiar with copyvio checking with earwig and requesting revdel of content copy-and-pasted from other websites, but wasn't sure how to approach this case. 2406:3003:2077:1E60:14EB:96C2:62B3:8FD3 (talk) 15:47, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

No worries. I have now revdelled the (assumedly) copyrighted poems, and another editor has reinstated the Criticisms section, which is helpful. I have added a note to the article's Talk page to explain why it has been reinstated, highlighting the archived link and encouraging that to be fixed and the source to be check. I do not plan to do the latter two tasks myself. I'll keep it on my watchlist for the next few months, but let me know if the section gets deleted again, as this could verge on protracted edit-warring. Nick Moyes (talk) 20:06, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Mathematics Riemann Hypothesis

The article on the Riemann Hypothesis has this statement: "In 1997 Deshouillers, Effinger, te Riele, and Zinoviev showed that the generalized Riemann hypothesis implies that every odd number greater than 5 is the sum of three primes." I look at the odd numbers 3 and 5 and wonder why the statement should not reference "every odd number greater than 1?" (Because 3=1+1+1 and 5=1+1+1.) Ozziemaland (talk) 21:40, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Edit of second sum in the parentheses: 5=3+1+1 Ozziemaland (talk) 21:42, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

The place to bring this up is on the article's talk page Talk:Riemann hypothesis. Note that what matters here is not what is true but what the source says. If the sources cited says "greater than 5", then that is what our article should say. ColinFine (talk) 21:56, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi Ozziemaland. 1 is not considered a prime. See Prime number#Primality of one. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:37, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

period inside of quotes "" or not

should i put the period inside of the "quotation marks" or not at the end of a sentence? ex. john and jill walked up the hill, john said, "jill you are a dolt." or is it, "jill you are a dolt". Iljhgtn (talk) 18:59, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Iljhgtn Hello and welcome here. As much as I understand, In American English, periods and commas are typically placed inside quotation marks, like this "jill you are a dolt."

However, in British English, the placement of periods and commas depends on whether they are part of the quoted material. If they are, they are placed inside the quotation marks. If they are not, they are placed outside. For example: "jill you are a dolt".

Hope this helps! Vanderwaalforces (talk) 19:03, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

so ENGVAR applies then. i will need to leave these alone mostly so i dont have ENGVAR provlems Iljhgtn (talk) 19:05, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

per mos:lq, the answer depends on the quote, not the variety of english

so quoting an entire phrase like Karol claims that "Collecting the D-O-N-G letters was always the best part of DKC." would be correct and not even wrong

but if you want to quote a phrase until before it ends, like Karol's favorite part of DKC was "collecting the D-O-N-G letters". would be cool and good cogsan • (give me attention) • (see my deeds) 19:46, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Iljhgtn: In case you didn't see the previous reply. This isn't an ENGVAR thing. We have a guideline, MOS:LQ. If the quotation ends with punctuation, put the punctuation inside the quotation marks, otherwise put it outside. ~Anachronist (talk) 22:23, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Anachronist Thanks for the reply! Vanderwaalforces (talk) 04:30, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

if the quotation is incomplete, wouldnt you want to end it with an ellipsis? This thing "..."? for example, lets say the full original material is, "Hop on spot, spot is a good dog and loves to run around", but you only are quoting some of it, "Hop on spot, spot is a good dog..." ? Would that be right? Iljhgtn (talk) 23:11, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Generally that's correct. See MOS:ELLIPSIS. CodeTalker (talk) 23:56, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Paywalled articles at subscription-required sites and archived versions

I frequently come across cited articles which require subscriptions to be read in full at source. In some cases versions at archiving sites, eg. the Wayback Machine or archive.today, enable the whole article to be read. Is there any way to automatically alert editors who aren't aware of this to search archiving sites whenever they cite paywalled articles? Mcljlm (talk) 16:49, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mcljlm: Welcome to Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive 1198. Most citation templates, like {{cite book}}, have parameters that visually inform readers as to whether a source is free to access or otherwise. Other than that it's really up to the editor to do that on their own. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 18:03, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

My point Tenryuu is that in many (most?) cases editors don't include archived URLs either because they don't realise there'll be a problem for most WP readers, that archived URLs are a way round it, or can't be bothered to search for/create them. I wondered if it's possible for them to be informed before edits are published similar to the way error notices appear. Is there a Wikipedia bot which could highlight the need to add archived URLs? If not can one be created? Mcljlm (talk) 03:55, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Why did this article get rejected?

Hi there,

I have drafted a page for a famous Iranian-American tennis official and added more than enough credible sources, but my article has been declined twice, despite the fact that another editor confirmed the notability of the person.

Could you please have a look and help?

Draft:Ali Nili

Thanks in advance.

Regards, ManhattanMG (talk) 12:09, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

ManhattanMG Hello and welcome. I've fixed your link so that it is easily viewable for people in their preferred version of Wikipedia(desktop or mobile).

You should remove language about his "passion" and "journey"; that is just promotional marketing speak. If you have independent reliable sources that discuss what they view as his passion, that might be okay. It seem that you are lacking in sources that give this man significant coverage. 331dot (talk) 12:19, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your reply, @331dot. Really appreciate your help.

Nili has umpired some of biggest tennis matches in recent years. I have provided sources form US Open, the Guardian, Sport Illustrated, Iranian biggest news agencies including IRNA.

Are these sources not credible?

Regards, ManhattanMG (talk) 12:32, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

The credibility is not the issue. You need sources that do more than merely document his work, that say what makes him important as a tennis official. 331dot (talk) 12:35, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply,

He has been awarded by United States Tennis Federation as a notable tennis umpire. I have provided the source. There are similar articles about less famous tennis umpires, so I'm wondering how they got approved? How can I talk to a tennis editor? ManhattanMG (talk) 12:45, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Please see other stuff exists. It could be that these other articles are also inappropriate and simply not addressed yet. As this is a volunteer project where people do what they can when they can, it is possible for inappropriate articles to get by us, even for years. We can only address what we know about. This also does not mean that each article was "approved" by anyone. This process is not required of all users(though it's a good idea for the inexperienced), and this process has not always existed. If you would like to help us deal with other inappropriate articles, feel free to identify these other articles you have seen for possible action.

There are not necessarily specific "tennis editors"; editors may edit about any subject they choose. You could see if anyone is active at the Tennis WikiProject who could offer you advice.

The award may make him notable- but there still needs to be significant coverage of him personally, not mere documentation of his work and accomplishments. What are the absolute three best sources you have where the source discusses him on their own?(i.e. not an interview with him or merely telling what he has done) 331dot (talk) 12:55, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate your help greatly. The most important source is USOpen website (one of four tennis majors in the world) The other one is Mehrnews.org (One of Iran biggest new agency), there are also sources like SportsIllustrated and the Daily Express and the Guardian and a few more. ManhattanMG (talk) 13:13, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

The organization giving him the award is a primary spurce. The Mehr source merely documents the awarding of the award. 331dot (talk) 13:26, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

That organization is not a marketing company, it is indeed one of biggest competitions in the world of tennis and it is absolutely credible and trustworthy. Based on the provided page, Mehr News is a secondary source, so I assume it might work here. ManhattanMG (talk) 13:35, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Their trustworthiness is not the issue, I certainly believe them, but we mainly want to know what independent sources say about his being given the award. I could give him the 331dot Award for Tennis Officiating and tell people about it, but that means little until other people talk about it. 331dot (talk) 13:40, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Mehr News and other sources talked about him. These are credible news outlets in Iran. He is a tennis official and his name has also been mentioned in some tennis books as well, including Novak Djokovic biography. ManhattanMG (talk) 13:46, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

At least three outlets interviewed him in English as well as Persian. If he wasn't famous they wouldn't have done that. ManhattanMG (talk) 13:47, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

sorry, but interviews are not independent. ltbdl (talk) 13:51, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Note that "fame" is different from "notability". One can be famous but not notable, and be notable but not famous. I'm sure you are a good journalist, but journalistic writing is very different from encyclopedia writing, both in terms of style and what is being looked for. Awards do not inherently contribute to notability unless the award itself merits an article(like Nobel Peace Prize or Academy Award), or if independent reliable sources significantly discuss the importance of the award, what it represents, and why the person received one. Did the person's officiating lead to rule or policy changes? Did they have a particular influence on the sport? A baseball manager, Bobby Cox, merits an article because there is 1) extensive coverage of his career as a player and 2) he holds the record for being ejected from games as a manager and 3) independent sources extensively wrote about both. That's a particular influence on the sport. 331dot (talk) 14:19, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank for your advice. I understand that the style was not appropriate and another contributor did a clean-up anf I'm thankful to him. ManhattanMG (talk) 14:37, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate your taking the time to explain the difference between notable and famous. I'm pretty sure he is more notable than the likes of Kim Kardashian. But I don't know how those celebrities have their own pages. ManhattanMG (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Kim Kardashian merits an article because independent reliable sources have extensively written about her and her influence(even if it's in part famous for being famous). 331dot (talk) 08:38, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

As noted below, the puff language/marketing speak needs to be removed as well. Do you have an association with this official? (like being his representative/agent) 331dot (talk) 12:56, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

No, I am an Iranian tennis journalist, I mostly write in Persian. Nili is famous in the world of tennis and I thought I should create a page for him. That's it. ManhattanMG (talk) 13:02, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

(e/c) In addition there are a number of other puff phrases that need to be swept away. Just the facts please, not your opinions. Shantavira|^{feed me} 12:34, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I did some puffery clean-up. David notMD (talk) 13:57, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

One way to look at it, ManhattanMG is that Wikipedia is not interested in what the subject of an article says or wants to say about themselves, or what their associates say about them. Wikipedia is only interested in what people who have no connection with the subject, and who have not been prompted or fed information on behalf of the subject, have chosen to publish about the subject in reliable sources. It follows that almost nothing that comes from Nili or his associates (which includes organizations that employ him or have awarded him prizes) is of relevance to a Wikipedia article. --ColinFine (talk) 15:55, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. I am not by any means his associate. I guess you guys don't follow tennis otherwise you wouldn't say he is not a notable person. I will be looking for a tennis editor. Thanks again. ManhattanMG (talk) 17:19, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Whether or not we agree or disagree as editors, the simple fact remains that there MUST be third-party Reliable sources to ascertain/verify notability of any subject with a Wikipedia page. Hope this is of help to you. Regards, Aloha27 talk 17:32, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Certainly, and that's precisely why I've provided various reputable news agencies as well as the official US Open website. These sources have a longstanding history and wouldn't publish misleading or promotional content on their platform. Just to clarify, the US Open's history traces back to 1881, reinforcing their credibility. ManhattanMG (talk) 17:43, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, ManhattanMG! I think you are having difficulty with the word "notable" as it is used in Wikipedia jargon rather than in its usual English-language meaning – this is understandable, and I wish someone had introduced a different term 20-odd years ago, but now we're stuck with it.

In the jargon of Wikipedia editing, it does not mean "famous" or "well-known", or "influential", or "meritorious", or "important". Instead it means only "has been written (or broadcast) about at some length in several (preferably at least 3) published sources that are considered Reliable, independently of any influence by the subject or any person or organisation directly connected to them". (Phew!).

The "independent" excludes any interviews with the subject, PR releases about them, or writings and statements by themselves, relatives, friends, employers etc. no matter where they are published. Please read the more formal guidelines at Wikipedia:Notability and/or the shorter and less formal essay at WP:42.

Demonstrating a subject's "Notability" is a fundamental requirement for having an English-Language Wikipedia article about them (other-language Wikipedias may have different criteria, as each is an independent project). Once a subjects's "Notability" is proven according to all the criteria I described above, other lesser sources can be cited for particular facts (like date and place of birth, etc.), but "Notability" comes first. I hope this clarifies matters. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.140.169 (talk) 23:11, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

The major sources I have provided are "independent" and "reliable" by definition. ManhattanMG (talk) 06:25, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

That may be so (I haven't checked, but I'll take your word for it) but do they also discuss the subject and his importance at some length, and are they independent of him (meaning that he is not a member of them, or associated with them [including receiving awards from them], or employed by them in any way, even without renumeration)?

Note that I am not saying otherwise, but these are questions you need to ask about whether sources can demonstrate notability (in Wikipedia's sense), as opposed to merely confirming facts.

Note also that I know no more than any other average person about Tennis, and am not interested in it: I am merely advising you about general Wikipedia policies and requirements, in the light of 20 years' editing on Wikipedia, and a former career editing printed textbooks and encyclopaedias. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.140.169 (talk) 08:19, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

US Open, which starts today in New York, is a huge event with a substantial history. They don't pay tribute to nobodies. :-) ManhattanMG (talk) 08:45, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/SALt lamp (2nd nomination)

I've nominated an article for deletion (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/SALt lamp (2nd nomination)). I was thinking that it might be better merged, which I've discussed on the Afd page. How I can ask for input from editors of a specific area, like those of the pages that it might be merged into? 99% fad-free (talk) 01:15, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

99% fad-free, via deletion sorting lists. This AfD has already been added to two lists; if you believe that it should be added to more lists, you are free to add it to them. (Instructions appear atop each list.) -- Hoary (talk) 07:39, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Hoary! I thought maybe there was a reason I shouldn't do that. 99% fad-free (talk) 09:18, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Parkinson's disease

I would like to make a contribution to the article Parkinson's disease in the Research section but I do not have permission to edit. I would like to add this research from the BMJ Gut journal

Konings, Bo; Villatoro, Luisa (2023). "Gastrointestinal syndromes preceding a diagnosis of Parkinson's disease: testing Braak's hypothesis using a nationwide database for comparison with Alzheimer's disease and cerebrovascular diseases". BMJ Gut. doi:10.1136/gutjnl-2023-329685. Retrieved 27 August 2023.

TRESISR (talk) 05:35, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi TRESISR. When you're unable to edit a Wikipedia article because it has been protected by a Wikipedia administrator, you can still use the article's corresponding talk page to propose the changes you would like to make. You can do this either in the form of an edit request or perhaps a bit less formally through talk page discussion. Be advised, however, that articles about medical subjects seem to be bit more scrutinized and require higher quality sources than perhaps is the case with respect to aritlces about other subjects. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:03, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I'd also add that Wikipedia's articles are tertiary, not secondary reviews, a distinction of which many academic researchers are unaware. It is the job of secondary reviews in good medical journals to sift through the enormous quantity of high-quality research that a condition like Parkinson's generates, and it is for them to decide which primary sources are most influential of current understanding, and to synthesise an overview of what it all means. It is our job to provide an overview-of-overviews, referencing these secondary reviews. Our articles are rarely the place to refer to individual primary studies. We are absolutely not a place to advertise recent research; the bar for inclusion is rather high, but there is no shame in a primary article not reaching it. Elemimele (talk) 09:23, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Anyone willing to help change a notable topics stub article to Neutral Point of View?

Hello there Wikipedians! Great to be here, thank you to everyone for making this such an awesome place to be!

I have just one head scratching issue, and to be honest I'm kinda struggling with this one. Coming from high academics I should not be scratching my head about how to properly tone a wikipedia article but I'm mostly familiar with Awards, nominations, type of articles and I'm kind of stuck on something, I can't seem to find significant things like a music award nomination for the artist Draft:Doc Shebeleza (South African musician) which is an article I recently created and I would love the help from anyone willing to contribute by changing the tone of the article. I have since update and made the intro a more neutral point of view. it's kind of tricky to determine what should stay and what should particular be removed before being published. Also check the Career tab in the draft.

Kind regards and anybodys help is glady welcome! Frankymulls (talk) 08:02, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Don't worry about a lack of award nominations, Frankymulls. Do worry about the promotional tone, which is overpowering. A randomly chosen sample: Reflecting on his journey, Doc Shebeleza, also known as Victor Bogopane, shared insights into his post-limelight endeavors. Rather than capitalizing on the wave of attention spurred by Cassper Nyovest's homage, he chose a different path. Collaborating with Cassper Nyovest on what would become his final recorded song, Monate So, Bogopane gracefully bid farewell to his extensive Kwaito career. What this actually means is elusive. It seems to be written less to inform (which is what we want) than to impress (which we don't want) -- and it doesn't impress. Make it informative. Base what you write directly on the reliable sources that you cite. -- Hoary (talk) 09:15, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you so much! User:Hoary A nudge in the right direction was all I needed. I contributed to the encyclopedia before but when I look back at the work I did before, I see the huge difference between the old work and the current one. In the old contributions my work is informative and gives accurate information based on the reliable sources cited in a non promotional manner..

I just couldn't put 1 and 1 together as why my new work doesn't sound or have the exact tone as my previous work.

I'm fixing the draft up and will be publishing again after improvements have been made. Thanks for the reflections.

P.S - I didnt focus on neutral point of view when I wanted to draft the article, I just rewrote the information found in the reliable sources which I than put in my own words, I haven't really focused on changing the tone. I Just needed a heads up as to what direction to take the article. Because reading it back to myself didn't sound like encyclopedic material.

Have a nice day! Frankymulls (talk) 09:34, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Regarding "Citation needed" template

Hello, recently I worked on wikipedia article named Rameshwar Lal dudi, I have added reliable sources to support the information on this article and now I think that the template on this article which says that it require citations is no longer required because it have proper citations. WikiAnchor10 (talk) 19:20, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

@WikiAnchor10 - You can remove it if you feel your addressed the concerns.KatoKungLee (talk) 19:31, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

@WikiAnchor10 Your Hindi sources are OK but it would help readers of this English article if you used the |trans-title= parameter to give a translation of each citation title. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:34, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Present tense

Hi everyone,

Some articles, especially biographies, are written using past tenses, for exampe: "John S. was a singer...".

Is it ok or should we systematically correct it using the present tense?

Fhaidi (talk) 12:09, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Fhaidi:

Welcome to the teahouse. If the subject of the biography is deceased, their biography article should be written in the past tense. See MOS:BLPTENSE: Biographies of living persons should generally be written in the present tense, and biographies of deceased persons in the past tense.

If you find a biography of a living person written in the past tense, you are more than welcome to correct it. Cheers, -- TheLonelyPather (talk) 12:44, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Great! Very helpful, thanks a lot. Fhaidi (talk) 12:52, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

biography for my father

I want to create a page - biography for my father - he is engineer and professor at faculty of mechanical engineering, in Pristina- Kosovo. DafineMuriqi (talk) 09:39, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Dear User:DafineMuriqi I could help you in that field as I am a qualified professor but note that the topic needs to meet WP:Notability criteria and follow WP:reliable sources guidelines.

Also do create a new topic on this subject in the Teahouse so that others who are interested can also contribute to the article as this is a encyclopedia for everyone to edit.

Thank you Frankymulls (talk) 10:00, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

In addition to Frankmull's guidance. Make sure to read our guideline on conflict of interest editing. Ca ^{talk to me!} 10:52, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

WP:YFA describes how to create and then submit a referenced draft for review. Keep in mind that Wikipedia has articles - not 'biographies' - and that all fact content must be verified by reliable source references. WP:ACAD provides information on articles about academics. David notMD (talk) 12:39, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

A good essay for incorporating the advice you've been given is at WP:BACKWARD. I highly suggest reading and understanding it before starting your draft. - UtherSRG (talk) 13:13, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Date of Birth on Wikipedia

Hi everyone. I am working on an article about a person (biography) and I need to prove their date of birth. My question is: How can I prove on Wikipedia that a certain person was born on a certain day? Do I need to wait for a reliable source or for that person to tell when they were born or is there a better way to prove it? Thank you for your time and for who helps me. Best Regards, MountSnake87 (talk) 12:01, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello @MountSnake87:

Welcome to the teahouse. You should wait for a reliable source. If the person tells you their date of birth in private correspondence, it cannot be used in Wikipedia, as it is unpublished. Cheers, -- TheLonelyPather (talk) 13:02, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I want to point this out. Wikipedia:BLPPRIVACY. I think it's worthy pointing it out. Cwater1 (talk) 13:15, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Jessica Greenfield submission

Hi,

I'm a first-time contributor and finding it difficult to get my proposed content published. I'm a professional writer of some 20 years, so I think the submission is fairly straightforward and easy to read, but I seem to keep running into citation difficulties. I'm not sure if I'm doing that wrong or if my subject just isn't worthy of a Wikipedia entry due to there not being enough reliable info out there to refer to. Can someone help? https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Draft:Jessica_Greenfield

Best regards,

David Davidwalker1981 (talk) 13:08, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi David,

You've a few issues with your draft. You have a bunch of external links masquerading as references: check out WP:INCITE and WP:EXTERNAL which explains how to cite in-line with text and why external links shouldn't be in the body of the article.

You've used Discogs as a source: sorry, that can't be used. Check Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources which explains why. Likewise LinkedIn (and other social media) shouldn't be used- we'd rather see secondary sources for this information. Qcne (talk) 13:30, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Many thanks, think I've sorted those issues now - we'll see!

David Davidwalker1981 (talk) 14:21, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Wikimedia directions

Hello. I am aware this is a Wikipedia chat but I have a quick question regarding Wikimedia. I believe this File:William Campbell (Medal of Honor).jpg may not actually be the person it says it is. I have further reasoning at the talk page of William Campbell but I would like to see if there is a relevant forum on Wikimedia to discuss potential changes to the data of the original file. Sorry for the lack of relevance to the chat and thanks in advance! Clyde Jimpson of the Arkansas String Beans (talk) 18:47, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Clyde. That file is on Commons, so the best place to discuss it would be commons:Commons:Help desk. ColinFine (talk) 20:13, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Image removed from article until issue settled at Commons. David notMD (talk) 02:27, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks guys! Clyde Jimpson of the Arkansas String Beans (talk) 15:05, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Durham Museum

For the Durham Museum Wikipedia page, it is still listed as a heritage center, despite the article repeatedly commenting on its renaming as just 'Durham Museum.' Is there any way to change this?

The article in question is: Durham Museum and Heritage Centre 46.208.35.141 (talk) 12:19, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello and welcome to the Teahouse. I fixed your link so the link will appear in whatever version people are using(mobile or desktop). An article is typically titled as whatever the most common name is for the topic, not necessarily the official or legal name(Bill Clinton, not William Jefferson Clinton, his legal name, and not William Jefferson Blythe, his birth name). If you think that "Durham Museum" is the correct name and moving it is uncontroversial, you may request a rename at Requested Moves. 331dot (talk) 15:43, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Changing the title of a draft?

Is there a way to change the title of a draft? I wanted to change the name of my draft Karu Research to read Karu Research (fashion brand) as I noticed that is more common for wikipedia pages on fashion brands.. Chainsawpunk (talk) 15:44, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

@Chainsawpunk: Assuming you're using the more recent Wikipedia skin, look at the toolbar on the right of the page when you're on draft. There should be a link labeled "Move". You can select the next name there. However, in this instance, a disambiguating parenthetical doesn't strike me as necessary. If it is necessary, the editor that approves your draft will append it. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:56, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Okay, thank you! I will keep it the same, but thank you for letting me know about this tool regardless! Chainsawpunk (talk) 15:57, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Google books link

In the article "Sally Kempton" I tried to add a link to a book I found on Google Books under "External links" and as a reference after the sentence "Her article "Cutting Loose", published in Esquire in 1970, which critiqued societal gender norms, garnered significant attention". But when I click on the link it just goes to the search result highlighted and I have to click on the result again to get to the actual page. Can anyone please fix it so that it goes to the actual page without having to click through? (Or you could explain to me how to fix it, but I doubt I would understand frankly.) Thank you. Caravansera (talk) 15:15, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

@Caravansera: Great question! Once you've opened the page, clear the search (for me, there's a grey bar; click the X box). Once you've done that, locate the button that looks like a pair of chain links above the displayed page. It'll open and reveal a URL link that can be copied. In this instance, the produced URL was this. Another explanation for this process is shown visually here. Welcome to Wikipedia and happy editing! ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:49, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! I see that you fixed it for me, thanks for that, and it's good to have the explanation here in case I need it again.Caravansera (talk) 16:01, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Table help

Heads up: I am QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} on a public network so please ping me in your replies.

Recently, I was editing Logic gate § Truth tables, to make the table cells with "0" in them red using {{no2}} to improve readability and consistency with other articles, but there was a problem on the second table. See below.

Compare tables

Code for broken table

{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:center;"
|-  style="background:#def;"
| colspan=2 | '''Input''' || colspan=6 | '''Output'''
|-  style="background:#def;"
| A || B || AND || NAND || OR || NOR || XOR || XNOR
|-
| {{no2|0}} || {{no2|0}} || rowspan="3" | {{no2|0}} || rowspan="3" | {{yes2|1}} || {{no2|0}} || {{yes2|1}} || {{no2|0}} || {{yes2|1}}
|-
| {{no2|0}} || {{yes2|1}} || rowspan="3" | {{yes2|1}} || rowspan="3" | {{no2|0}} || rowspan="2" | {{yes2|1}} || rowspan=2 |  {{no2|0}} 
|-
| {{yes2|1}} || {{no2|0}} 
|-
| {{yes2|1}} || {{yes2|1}} || {{yes2|1}} || {{no2|0}} || {{no2|0}} || {{yes2|1}} 
|}

Broken table
Input		Output
A	B	AND	NAND	OR	NOR	XOR	XNOR
0	0	style="background: #FFE3E3; color: black; vertical-align: middle; text-align: center; " class="table-no2" \|0	style="background:#bfd; color:black; vertical-align:middle; text-align:center; " class="table-yes2" \|1	0	1	0	1
0	1			style="background:#bfd; color:black; vertical-align:middle; text-align:center; " class="table-yes2" \|1	style="background: #FFE3E3; color: black; vertical-align: middle; text-align: center; " class="table-no2" \|0	style="background:#bfd; color:black; vertical-align:middle; text-align:center; " class="table-yes2" \|1	style="background: #FFE3E3; color: black; vertical-align: middle; text-align: center; " class="table-no2" \|0
1	0
1	1	1	0			0	1

Code for current table

{| class="wikitable"
|-  style="background:#def; text-align:center;"
| colspan=2 | '''Input''' || colspan=6 | '''Output'''
|-  style="background:#def; text-align:center;"
| A || B || AND || NAND || OR || NOR || XOR || XNOR
|-  style="background:#dfd; text-align:center;"
|0 || 0 || rowspan="3" | 0 || rowspan="3" | 1 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 1
|-  style="background:#dfd; text-align:center;"
|0 || 1 || rowspan="3" | 1 || rowspan="3" | 0 || rowspan="2" | 1 || rowspan=2 |  0 
|-  style="background:#dfd; text-align:center;"
|1 || 0 
|-  style="background:#dfd; text-align:center;"
|1 || 1 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 1 
|}

Current table
Input		Output
A	B	AND	NAND	OR	NOR	XOR	XNOR
0	0	0	1	0	1	0	1
0	1			1	0	1	0
1	0					1	0
1	1	1	0			0	1

Thanks in advance, 46.10.223.203 (talk) 17:41, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi QuickQuokka. {{no2}} says:

Important: If you want to use other attributes for the table cells, e.g. colspan, rowspan, or style, they need to be put before the template call, and there must be no vertical bar (aka pipe) | in-between them

This applies to cell formatting templates in general. They add formatting code which must be before the pipe so they include their own pipe. Without pipes:

Input		Output
A	B	AND	NAND	OR	NOR	XOR	XNOR
0	0	0	1	0	1	0	1
0	1			1	0	1	0
1	0					1	0
1	1	1	0			0	1

PrimeHunter (talk) 17:54, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

@PrimeHunter: Thank you! Sorry for forgetting the documentation.

I will now put this table in the article.

46.10.223.203 (talk) 18:09, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Resolved

– 46.10.223.203 (talk) 18:10, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

@PrimeHunter: Confirming it's me! QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 19:09, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Draft:Crezl - new K-crossover musical quartet

Hello, many thanks for all the helpful suggestions provided here. I have addressed the issues editors have noted, including cleaning up citations, etc. Any additional feedback would be greatly be appreciated that might help further improve the draft. Thank you so much. Echohk (talk) 13:08, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, Pbritti (talk), for your comment on the draft. I have removed the informal and non-neutral language in the members' profiles, as you suggested. Echohk (talk) 17:39, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

@Echohk: You need to remove all examples of unsubstantiated puffery and editorializing. For example the lead contains the word "unprecedented". That's as far as I got; I generally don't continue with articles that start out like that, and neither would most reviewers. ~Anachronist (talk) 21:32, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Tracking stubs to prevent disruption

Hello! For the last month, I've been keeping tabs on a disruptive IP who has focused on removing stub templates from articles. The user has hopped IPs a couple times to evade blocks, meaning I've only seen their disruption several days after it was resumed. This makes clean up difficult. Is there a tool that would allow me to monitor when a specific stub template is removed without resorting to watching every article that has that template? ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:42, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I guess you could maybe somehow set up a private edit filter to log it? Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 19:11, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

@Pbritti: Please post your question over at Wikipedia:Edit filter/Requested. Someone may be able to make an edit filter so you can track these changes more easily. ~Anachronist (talk) 21:24, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

@Edward-Woodrow and Anachronist: I did not know such a thing was available. This is swell! Thank you! ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:49, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Personal sandbox

I found the public sandbox after someone informed me about it they also said there’s a personal sandbox but I got no clue where and what it is. 209.249.49.18 (talk) 22:19, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Only logged-in editors have a personal sandbox - consider creating an account if you would like to be able to access one. Tollens (talk) 22:22, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I feel like an idiot for not knowing this. 209.249.49.18 (talk) 22:32, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

You can still make a sandbox over at Special:MyPage/sandbox, even without an account.

If this is a shared or dynamic IP, there is no guarantee that this sandbox will last. QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 01:32, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@QuickQuokka: As logged out user that link shows me You need to log in or create an account to create this page. RudolfRed (talk) 01:41, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@RudolfRed: I shall henceforth selftrout myself as I did not consider that unregistered users can't make new pages for the most part. QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 01:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

After doing more looking, it appears IP editors can create a sandbox in the Talk namespace, such as at Special:MyTalk/sandbox. (Though as mentioned above, if the IP is shared it still isn't personal per se.) Tollens (talk) 02:15, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

IP editor. See also WP:ACCOUNT for the many other reasons that creating an account is a good idea. Mike Turnbull (talk) 22:23, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. 209.249.49.18 (talk) 22:45, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Lua help

Resolved

– Hopefully I won't need to remove this template again --QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 03:26, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello! I need help with the Scribunto extension.

I recently edited Module:Example/sandbox to expreriment (see my sandbox), but the ternary operator is just not working as expected, it's always giving out the plural form.

On the official Lua demo site, running basically the same code runs as expected:

Lua code used in demo website

function count_fruit(num_bananas, num_apples)
	local conj_bananas = num_bananas == 1 and 'banana' or 'bananas'
	local conj_apples = num_apples == 1 and 'apple' or 'apples'
	
	return 'I have ' .. num_bananas ..  ' ' .. conj_bananas .. ' and ' .. num_apples .. ' ' .. conj_apples
end

print(count_fruit(2,1))

Sandbox example that is not working

local p = {};

function p.count_fruit(frame)
	local num_bananas = frame.args.bananas
	local num_apples = frame.args.apples
	
	local conj_bananas = num_bananas == 1 and 'banana' or 'bananas'
	local conj_apples = num_apples == 1 and 'apple' or 'apples'
	
	return 'I have ' .. num_bananas ..  ' ' .. conj_bananas .. ' and ' .. num_apples .. ' ' .. conj_apples
end

return p

{{#invoke:Example/sandbox|count_fruit|bananas=2|apples=1}}

QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 02:27, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

~~Fixed it~~, just added to tonumber function to frame.args.bananas and frame.args.apples and that seemed to fix it.

Thanks, ChatGPT. --QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 02:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Fucked up again, I added it to the module, and it gave error Lua error in Module:Example at line 38: attempt to concatenate global 'num_apples' (a nil value). no matter the input, I reverted myself --QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 03:02, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Comment: The sandbox and my sandbox work despite the stable pages not working. QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 03:05, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Now, @QuickQuokka, have you learned your lesson about asking ChatGPT for anything? Anyway, you should be editing Module:Sandbox/QuickQuokka for this type of thing, Module:Example is NOT a sandbox. I understand this is horridly confusing and I can't do anything about it. casualdejekyll 03:12, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Casualdejekyll: I did use the literal sandbox, and made sure that it actually works on my sandbox too, I didn't just blindly Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V the whole code.

I just messed something up when transferring it to the stable page. QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 03:19, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

And I instantly reverted myself when I realized I messed up. QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 03:19, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Casualdejekyll:

Fixed once and for all (hopefully)

The problem is that I accidentally declared the same variable twice. It's not a ChatGPT or sandbox issue

QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 03:26, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

{over-quotation} for a section?

Is there a way to add an over-quotation template for just a section, or should I use template:long quote instead? I'm looking at Gérald Darmanin#Intimidation against the Human Rights League. Artwhitemaster (talk) 00:35, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

@artwhitemaster:

{{over-quotation|section=yes}} ltbdl (talk) 04:02, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Artwhitemaster, it appears from the quotation marks that a miscellany of people who I'd expect would be expressing themselves in French have instead been expressing themselves in English. This is odd. Another oddity is the care currently taken to present what was merely "mentioned". (The writer probably doesn't fully understand the nuances of this verb.) And certain uses of the present tense, though normal if this were in French, are odd when it's instead in English. -- Hoary (talk) 06:23, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

This passage cites an article that is entirely in French, so as far as I can see nothing within the quotation marks is actually a quotation, therefore I suggest you simply delete all those quotation marks. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:23, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Should I delete the entire section or just all the quotes? I agree with you that it seems like the entire section was written by one unregistered user and isn't in line with tone/neutrality. What should I do? Artwhitemaster (talk) 07:38, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Something is just not right!

As I believe Wikipedia is open all, I believe is also offers the opportunity for one to learn more on a topic/entity. I have been contributing to EMY Africa Awards for sometime now and based on the knowledge gathered during my research, I created the pages Kojo Soboh and List of winners of EMY Africa Awards, as it has been done for several award schemes, which is up for deletion at the moment. I am abit surprised with the COI tag placed on me and why such a notable award scheme is been flagged for deletion. A quick on/off wikipedia search confirms its notability. Siagoddess (talk) 21:01, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Siagoddess, and welcome to the Teahouse. Wikipedia is indeed open to all to edit, but that does not mean that just anything may be inserted. Do you understand what notability means in English W£ikipedia? It is rare that a "quick search" will establish this for a topic, and an "on wikipedia search" is totally irrelevant for it.

I suggest you present the three most solid sources, each of which meets all the criteria in WP:42. Often the hardest one of those to establish is independence: remember that nothing written, published, or sponsored by the subject or any associate or organization associated with the subject will count, and that includes third party articles which are based on press releases. ColinFine (talk) 21:48, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello ColinFine, thanks for the clarification. Per WP:42, kindly go through these sources as suggested;

Siagoddess (talk) 22:45, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Siagoddess. I don't see any independent significant coverage of the awards. Most of these say no more than a sentence about the awards. The one with most information about them, the Ghanaweb one, is an advertising piece by the sponsor of the awards, and so not independent. ColinFine (talk) 20:46, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

@ColinFine, what about these;

Siagoddess (talk) 09:54, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Re-citing same book but different page numbers

How do I recite the same book but with different page numbers so that the second, third, etc. citations show up as shortened citations in the references section? I'm editing Tomio Hora right now and looking at references 2 and 3. And is there a way to do this in the visual editor? Artwhitemaster (talk) 07:18, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Artwhitemaster My preferred method is to put the page numbers in the article text with Template:RP. I don't know if you can find that template in VE, I don't use VE much. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:31, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Artwhitemaster: Alternatively you can list full citations for works in the bibliography and use some form of shortened footnotes, for instance {{sfn}}, which is my usual practice: see e.g. Anyte for an example. I don't use visual editor, but I imagine Help:Introduction to referencing with VisualEditor will be useful to you. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 10:49, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

So in summary, there are more than one way to skin this particular cat. We like to keep it consistent within an article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:24, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Draft: 2023-24 Inter Regions Division

Hello everyone, I need some help to edit my draft to a high enough standard so it can be approved. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks. OGL259 (talk) 08:13, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

It would help if you linked the article. I assume you mean Draft:2023–24 Ligue Inter-Régions. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:33, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

yep, sorry about that lol OGL259 (talk) 08:57, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, OGL259, and welcome to the Teahouse. I'm afraid that, like most editors who try to create an article before they have very much experience of editing Wikipedia, you have written your draft BACKWARDS.

Forget the text. Forget the tables. Forget absolutely everything about your draft except the sources. Find several sources each of which is all three of:

reliably published, by somebody with a reputation for editorial control and fact checking.
independent. Not written, published, or commissioned by the division, or the league, or the LNFA, or their employees or agents; and not based on an interview with any of these, or a press release.
Contains significant coverage of the 2023-24 Inter Regions Division specifically.

The Dzfoot article might meet these criteria, but it does not actually say very much specifically about your subject, so it is at best a weak reference. The others are primary sources, which can be used as you have used them, but they contribute nothing at all to establishing notability.

If you cannot find at least three sources which meet all of these criteria, then stop - your draft cannot be accepted, and any further time and effort you put into it will be wasted. ColinFine (talk) 09:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

yes but i cross referenced with multiple leagues who all have either a similar or a lower amount of sources so how come i need more?

Thanks in advanced. OGL259 (talk) 10:03, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Please see other stuff exists. It could be that these other articles you have seen are also inappropriate and simply not addressed yet. As this is a volunteer project where people do what they can when they can, it is possible for inappropriate content to get by us, even for years. We can only address what we know about- this is not a reason to add more inappropriate content. This is why each article or draft is judged on its own merits. 331dot (talk) 10:08, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I understand your point, but the algerian football leagues are sorely lacking on this website in English and at times in french so i wouldnt class it as inappropriate. Do you think it would better to just post the edit on the main page of https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Inter-R%C3%A9gions_Division ?

Thanks for the advice. OGL259 (talk) 11:38, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

If you want to use other articles as a model or example, use those classified as good articles, which have been vetted by the community. 331dot (talk) 10:09, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I Am Seeing A Controversial Image In Wikipedia Page

I Am Seeing A Controversial Image In Wikipedia Page. And I Want It To Be Changed. Firstly For Introduction The Page Is About:Ahmad Sirhindi And When You enter You Will See A Portrait Of Him. It Doesnt Seem Controversial But It Is A Very Controversial Image to Around 1.7 Billion Muslims Living And They Get Angry. Because We Dont Put Portraits Of Religious Figures On Wikipedia Page. Even Wikipedia Agrees With This Rule. It Doesnt Put Portraits Of People LIke Muhammad And His Companians And Even Modern Day People That Are Very Famous. We Want It To Be Changed. Many Editors Have Tried It But They Wont Let Us Edit it RERGaming123 (talk) 18:19, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @RERGaming123, welcome to the Teahouse. I hope Wikipedia is not censored answers your question. Have a good day, NotAGenious (talk) 18:24, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I see that you've already asked Edward Woodrow on his talk page, you won't get a different answer from anyone. HELP:NOSEE tells you how to hide images from yourself, but please do not attempt to remove the image from the article. Thank you for asking first though. NotAGenious (talk) 18:30, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Even Wikipedia Agrees With This Rule. It Doesnt [sic] Put Portraits Of People LIke Muhammad And His Companians. No, it totally does. this image, for example, is used on the Muhammad article. Also, there no need to Write In Title Case Like This. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 18:41, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

For your info. There is no such image in Muhammad's article but i think it's okay if you don't want me to change that image. Thanks RERGaming123 (talk) 13:06, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Nope that image IS within the Muhammad article in the Farewell pilgrimage section. Lavalizard101 (talk) 13:10, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Hm? See Muhammad#Farewell pilgrimage. Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 13:12, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

How my page can get approved?

Hi everyone, I hope you are doing well. My name is Anas Baig, currently works at Securiti. I am trying to push my company page i.e Securiti.ai live on Wikipedia. How to push it live from sandbox? Right now it's in the sandbox https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/User:Anasbaig/sandbox

Please help:)

Thank you so much.

Kind regards, Anas Baig Anasbaig (talk) 11:33, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Anasbaig. Firstly you must immediately declare your WP:Conflict of Interest and make a WP:PAID editing disclosure. Failure to do so is a breach of Wikimedia Terms and Conditions. Qcne (talk) 12:31, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Anas, and welcome to the Teahouse. Once you have made the mandatory PAID disclosure, the next thing is to get rid of all the promotional language - which is most of your draft.

Wikipedia is not interested in what the subject of an article says or wants to say about themselves, or what their associates say about them. Wikipedia is only interested in what people who have no connection with the subject, and who have not been prompted or fed information on behalf of the subject, have chosen to publish about the subject in reliable sources.

You may also find the essay BACKWARDS helpful. ColinFine (talk) 19:38, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Looking at the article reminds me of a small set of WPs I got on my page, User:Natelabs/sandbox

WP:IS, WP:SECONDARY, WP:GNG, WP:RS

It also looks like an advertisement, which is probably frowned upon in the writing guidelines (WP:SOAP). Natelabs (talk) 14:59, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

generational label

Is someone's generation something that we would include in an infobox? For example, would it be cool to put millennial in the infobox for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez or baby boomer in the infobox for Donald Trump? Iljhgtn (talk) 23:49, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Year of birth is all you need, we don't really need unnecessary clutter in the infobox Natelabs (talk) 00:42, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

If Trump is a baby boomer, it is just barely. He was born about ten months after Victory over Japan Day at the end of World War II. But my personal oservations mean nothing. The only relevant question is whether multiple reliable independent sources call him a "baby boomer". Given the massive amount of coverage of Trump, this ought to be a consistently repeated theme in coverage of Trump. Cullen328 (talk) 06:42, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

a quick google search showed these results on trump being a baby boomer: https://www.salon.com/2016/03/22/donald_trumps_the_ultimate_baby_boomer_how_boomer_entitlement_and_hollywood_explain_the_gop_front_runner/]https://www.salon.com/2016/03/22/donald_trumps_the_ultimate_baby_boomer_how_boomer_entitlement_and_hollywood_explain_the_gop_front_runner/

[16]https://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/05/donald_trump_baby_boomer_how_the_candidate_was_shaped_by_his_generation.html

[17]https://qz.com/836658/donald-trumps-age-how-baby-boomer-generation-x-and-millennial-presidents-would-change-the-course-of-america

[18]https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/nov/07/the-baby-boomers-still-want-to-make-america-great-again

[19]https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2016/10/25/7d0c6a62-9aef-11e6-b3c9-f662adaa0048_story.html Iljhgtn (talk) 10:46, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree with @Natelabs, we don't need something unnecessary like that in the infobox Club On a Sub 20 (talk) 18:53, 28 August 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Industrial Insect (talk • contribs)

@Iljhgtn, Natelabs, Cullen328, and Industrial Insect: Not only is it unnecessary, but generational labels don't really have strict definitions.

My mother was born in '65. Is she a Boomer or a Gen Xer? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ --QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 16:57, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Article for creation, what am I doing wrong?

Hi, I am a relative newbie and I would really like to know how I might improve the article I have submitted for creation at Draft:Gail_Renard. The references I've added seem to be the concern.

1st rejection was "By no means can the current sourcing be considered significant. Please read the guidelines before any additional submissions."

2nd rejection was "Please cite sources, and ensure that the article describes what the sources discuss."

Can someone steer me in the right direction for how I make this work? HGoody (talk) 10:38, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

HGoody, what you have to do first is demonstrate that Renard is notable (as notability is defined by and for Wikipedia): after all, it's the failure to demonstrate this that is cited in each of the three "decline" notices. Is there significant coverage (not just passing mentions) about [her] in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of [her] (and of each other)? If so, please start by -- here, in this thread -- nominating three sources of this kind. -- Hoary (talk) 11:20, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the prompt, I will attempt an answer.

-Decades of writing for TV (IMDB & other wiki pages talk about the shows)

-Creating a show that won a BAFTA (covered by the BAFTA site and news sites)

-Being with John & Yoko at the Bed-in for peace (covered by BBC)

I guess my answer is at the crux of the problem. If a writer creates a show & it wins a BAFTA, then are sources that back up that fact not enough for notability? Do I need to also find evidence that people are talking about her doing it? HGoody (talk) 11:34, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

A ref that confirms that a person won an award is useful, butif name only, as in X won Y, that is considered a passing mention, hence not sufficient as confirming notability. You need at least three refs having been written about Gail. David notMD (talk) 11:44, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

You're running up against WP:NOTINHERITED here. Plenty of people write a notable show (or book, or whatever), but are not independently notable themselves. Wikipedia requires sources that are primarily about the author rather than the thing that they wrote. Similarly, the Bed-in stuff speaks to Lennon's notability, not hers. MrOllie (talk) 11:51, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

HGoody, I invited you to nominate three sources. Admittedly this word has various shades of meaning, but in this context it means published texts, written and published independently of Renard, describing or discussing Renard or her works. (For joint works to which she contributed, her contributions to these need to be described or discussed.) These need not be online; and if a source is online it may be behind a paywall. And they needn't be in English. However, sources in English that are online and aren't behind paywalls would be more welcome. A quibble with MrOllie: I don't suppose that Renard had a starring role in "the Bed-in stuff"; but if she didn't, no matter: perhaps her involvement was itself written up by others; and the draft tells us that she had a reputable (non-vanity) publisher publish a book about the experience, a book that may have been reviewed. If a substantive write-up or review was published, feel free to nominate it as one of the three sources. -- Hoary (talk) 22:08, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you all for your continued patience. It's really helpful to get all of this feedback

How would you rate these as sources?

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2008/apr/30/johnlennon

http://www.meetthebeatlesforreal.com/2012/01/give-me-chance-book-review.html

https://televisionheaven.co.uk/reviews/echoes-of-louisa HGoody (talk) 06:51, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

@HGoody: The Guardian is a reliable source, but that piece isn't about Gail Renard, it's about an auction for song lyrics that she happens to own. I wouldn't say that counts toward notability. The second reference is a fan club and we would not use that. The third source telivisionheaven gives her only a brief mention, but describes her as "a Bafta award-winning television writer and performer". That source doesn't give her coverage for notability either, but may point the way to sources that do, if you can find coverage of her winning the Bafta award. ~Anachronist (talk) 16:45, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much for that. I have some newspaper mentions that could work better.

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-montreal-star/130858156/

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-daily-telegraph/130857905/

https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-gazette/130858258/

I have added these (and some others) to the article.

I would love to know if these work for notability HGoody (talk) 17:01, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

If a game studio is based in France, is it mandatory to use British English?

I had seen a user (who I won't name) tag a talk page for a video game with {{British English}}, saying that the developers is based in France, so it must be in British English. Is there a policy saying it should be that way? Ebbedlila (talk) 14:15, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

There's no policy or guideline. Common sense is usually the best way froward. Any other info is difficult to provide without seeing the actual edit and working out the editors intent. If the user is making a wholesale change from one form of English to another, they shouldn't do that. - X201 (talk) 14:23, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Policy in this area is WP:ENGVAR. 331dot (talk) 15:37, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

@Ebbedlila: WP:ENGVAR isn't really going to help here. It explains that the variety of English should remain consistent with an article, and that article topics with strong national ties to a particular variety of English should use that variety of English. But for articles with no ties to a particular flavor of English, you can use what you want. If you start it in American English, that's how it will be. If the largest market is American, then American English would be appropriate.

I'm remind of the game Minecraft, which originated in Europe, but the game developers deliberately spelled every word in the game in American English, and the Minecraft Wiki is also written accordingly, for that reason. ~Anachronist (talk) 21:29, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

It is conceivable that there might be an article about something where the creator is based in France but has strong national ties to British English for other reasons, and therefore EngVar would suggest that the article should be in BrEng. Just being from France alone isn't a strong national tie to British English, though, so unless there is some other reason that WP:TIES applies then it's a question of which variety of English was used first in that article per WP:RETAIN. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 10:55, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Ebbedlila and IgelRM: (Only fair to ping IgelRM as an involved editor) Assuming the articles you (Ebbedlila) have edited today (Jusant & Banishers: Ghosts of New Eden) were the video games in question, your original question in this thread requires a different reply now that it's possible to fully evaluate the situation. Based on your edits it looks like the question should have been closer to "Should the date format on a French video game made and published by French companies use American date format?". MOS:DATETIES states that the choice of date format and the choice of national variety of English are independent issues. (My bold). So in answer to the new question "Should the date format on a French video game made and published by French companies use American date format?" my answer is no, use dd/mm/yyyy , my reasoning being that with both games being set in fictional locations, no national date format applies to them, so next we apply MOS:DATERET which states that we should use the date format the article has evolved with, unless strong national ties warrant a change. Here I would say that the games have much stronger ties to France and zero to the USA; in short: the games are cultural products of France and should use French date format. I think situations like this need to refer less to the rules and more towards bettering Wikipedia through common sense. - X201 (talk) 13:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I would agree with this, on the dates. On the language, it has never been agreed that British English should be used (on the "strong national ties" basis) for subjects about non-Anglophone European countries such as France, Germany, etc. Equally American English has no special claims on South American subjects. Johnbod (talk) 16:47, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@X201: yes they were. I saw thay and was wondering why IgelRM had said those edit summaries. I guess I should have asked them directly instead of coming here. sorry. also thank you for the answer. Ebbedlila (talk) 16:39, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Appreciate the ping. My reasoning is that I saw Life Is Strange (video game) and Don't Nod use British English. The user who wrote most of the LIS article wanted that because it is a "European game" (presumably because Square Enix External Studios is London based), but they later got reprimanded for their behavior. I realize Don't Nod themselves (now) and most of the article's sources use American English (or Internet style "global" English). In particular, Jusant is French for ebb, so it feels associated with France, which generally uses British English. I think only using dd/mm/yyyy date format would be a reasonable compromise (although new to me). IgelRM (talk) 19:12, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

The article does not appear neutral to me, was my edit appropriate?

The article in question:

KIMEP University

I suspect that the article was written either by copying straight from the website, or by students or staff. The language reeks of officialese prevalent in a lot of PR material by state-affilated organisations in Kazakhstan, but translated to English.

Since I'm new to editing, I am not sure whether my last edit, which removed "Admissions" section completely, in addition applying small edits, is appropriate, so I want to ask there for help.

UPD: I reversed my edit for a while. SkyOfRose (talk) 18:14, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@SkyOfRose: I thought your edit was good. I have reverted your reversion. Please keep it up, make the article more neutral, and less reliant on primary sources. Wikipedia has no interest in what the university has to say about itself. ~Anachronist (talk) 18:20, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Anachronist:Thank you for your reply.

What should I do if there will be edits that will reverse improvements, and make the article more advertise-y again? SkyOfRose (talk) 18:27, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@SkyOfRose You can help by monitoring that page for poor changes in the future. You do that by adding the page and its associated talk page to your WATCHLIST.

You can also, if you wish, go to your Preferences setting and change the way you receive notifications - even to the point of being sent a notification email of a change to any page on your watchlist. If that happens, you can revert an edit (using a short, explanatory 'edit summary', or you could go to the editors page and explain your concerns and ask if they're connected to the University.

You could even use our tool called TWINKLE to leave an automated warning, highlighting your concerns about Conflicts of Interest. You can check out their other contributions to see how their editing behaviour is focussed. If it seems to be just on one article, and they're always advertisy, then you can report them here.

I hope these suggestions help, and that you enjoy learning, and becoming the type of editor who cares about how existing pages are maintained and protected from poor or harmful edits. We need people like you! Regards, Nick Moyes (talk) 20:23, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Ok, thanks! SkyOfRose (talk) 20:27, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Can revision delete...

Can revision delete be used on a revision consisting of vandalism by adding disgusting (unrelated) images? 73.170.137.168 (talk) 17:18, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 17:23, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@ 73.170.137.168

Hello and welcome to the Teahouse. As zzuuzz has said, revision deletion is possible as outlined here. It can only be done by administrators, and under certain circumstances. To request revision deletion please see the methods listed here. Happy editing. Grumpylawnchair (talk) 21:00, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Curiosity

Can we have an advocate system in Wikipedia where an editor fights for the unblock of a blocked editor as a barrister does in real life? Spike 'em 2 (talk) 19:45, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Spike 'em 2 Nope. It'd make things far too lengthy, and waste vast amounts of volunteer time. But see WP:UNBLOCK Nick Moyes (talk) 20:13, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Well, I was just looking for some help but the fact is that I'm quite bamboozled on finding that duplicate Spike em. User talk:Spike 'em- this is the original. But what the case actually is? Dare Devil Dare (talk) 20:43, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Dare Devil Dare Pardon? I don't quite understand what you're getting at here. Grumpylawnchair (talk) 20:55, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Dare Devil Dare are you trying to say that Spike em has two accounts aka a sock puppet? Shadow345110 (talk) 20:57, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Shadow345110 (talk) andGrumpylawnchair (talk) Not at all, Spike em the original is quite veteran as what I can make out from his userpage. But I, do suspect, that that number 2 is a fake account meant for vandalizing Wikipedia. Dare Devil Dare (talk) 21:01, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Dare Devil Dare Interesting I'll look into it. Shadow345110 (talk) 21:05, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Dare Devil Dare (talk) 21:06, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

There is a statement on their user page. Knitsey (talk) 21:07, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Knitsey (talk) Well, then is n't possessing two accounts without clearly mentioning that both of them are same violating Wikipedia guidelines? Dare Devil Dare (talk) 21:14, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

However, there is not a statement on @Spike 'em's userpage to link to @Spike 'em 2. I think @Dare Devil Dare is spot on. I'm going to block the latter as a precaution because their edits and filter log do seem suspicious. Nick Moyes (talk) 21:18, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Good job, I surmise that duplicate account is trying to potray himself as the original. Dare Devil Dare (talk) 21:20, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Dare Devil Dare Good find. Shadow345110 (talk) 21:22, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Yep. Good find, and the original user has confirmed a/c #2 had nothing to do with them. As a result I've blocked its ability to edit its talk page or send emails, and have deleted the fake userpage as a 'hoax'. Nick Moyes (talk) 21:33, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Why are these separate articles?

Articles in question: Electrical grid security in the United States and Electric grid security in the United States. Aren't they the same thing? Ca ^{talk to me!} 06:11, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Ca. In my opinion, those two articles should probably be merged. Please see WP:MERGE for detailed instructions about the process. Cullen328 (talk) 06:31, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

just added a merge proposal to the page Natelabs (talk) 22:18, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Opportunity for extra work

Teahouse hosts, yall may have some familiarity with the mentorship module. According to Special:ManageMentors, there are a few editors who have signed up as mentors and taken editing breaks without marking themselves as "away" in their mentor settings, causing new editors to continue to be assigned to them, and leaving their questions unanswered for an extended period of time.

If anyone here wants to sort the list at Special:ManageMentors by date of latest edit, and click through to the usertalk pages of mentors still marked as "Active", there's quite a few new editor questions that are awaiting response (although some of them may have reached out elsewhere in the interim). You can "bring the Teahouse to them" if feeling called to it. Folly Mox (talk) 13:28, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Oh, and anyone who is signed up as a mentor and fields one of these questions can "claim" the mentee to facilitate further communication. Folly Mox (talk) 13:29, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Hey, Folly Mox, thank you for this. Although I think your post was probably better suited to WT:TH than the Teahouse itelf, it prompted me to look at how one mentor can mark another mentor as 'away'. I think there's an issue that needs resolving here, so I've added this new topic to the Growth team features page. Many thanks, Nick Moyes (talk) 22:38, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Script question

is this script for everyone, or just admins? Notrealname1234 (talk) 21:26, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@notrealname1234: for everyone. ltbdl (talk) 00:25, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Not to mention that edit filters are one of the small parts of the Wiki where the admin toolbox gives very little. So there wouldn't be much of a point to restricting it to admins. casualdejekyll 01:14, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

draft:Aliasing (factorial experiments)

This draft was rejected. On August 15 I posted a query to the AfC helpdesk, asking for clarification of several criticisms. I have not heard a response to date, and I'm wondering how long I should expect to wait before getting a response. I can't really move forward on revising my draft until I hear back.

I'm aware of the enormous backlog of drafts, but I already waited almost half a year for a decision on the draft. The criticisms were very brief and (for me) unhelpful, which is why I posted my query. Do I need to wait another half year to get the clarification that I need? The draft will only stay in draft space for a limited time unless I work on it. Johsebb (talk) 16:37, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Johsebb. Your draft was declined not rejected, and there is a major difference. Vast swathes of your draft lack references, which creates concerns about Verifiability, which is a core content policy. In practice, every paragraph ought to have at least one reference. The lead section ought to be a simplified overview accessible to readers who are not experts in this field of mathematics. You should work on the obvious improvements that are needed. Cullen328 (talk) 16:57, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. I gather from this that wikilinks do not qualify as references. I can insert literature citations in each paragraph. That said, it seems easy to find articles that don't satisfy this.

As to the lead section, I can try to add text that will make the introduction a bit gentler. I'd be interested in what you think of the lead section of aliasing, by comparison. (That was the article that motivated my draft -- see Draft_talk:Aliasing_(factorial_experiments).)

My query to AfC of 15 August asked for some other clarifications of the reviewers comments -- examples of a non-formal tone or non-neutral point of view, or of writing that is unlike a Wikipedia article (since I think I can find many similar examples). I also don't know what to do about being "overly complicated to the average reader" in an article that is necessarily technical -- again, consider the writing in aliasing, or in finite field or fugue. I wonder if you could point me to articles on subjects like mine that are written more appropriately. Such models would be immensely helpful.

Finally, I gather that being "declined" is not as severe as being "rejected", but I'd like to know just what the distinction is. I'm unable to find an explanation in Wikipedia.

Thanks again for your help. I'm new to this. Johsebb (talk) 03:08, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

cc @Paul Vaurie, draft reviewer. Schminnte (talk • contribs) 16:59, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. I echo what Cullen328 said above. Paul Vaurie (talk) 20:53, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Question on how to report certain users, if I’m able to at all

Sometimes a user will constantly poorly edit things on certain topics, I don’t know if they would be considered vandalism as they could easily be seen as good faith edits poorly done, but if I don’t believe it, where should I report it? My example is here 98.10.99.168, page disruption seems to be based on not reaching consensus and I don’t want to have to try and reach consensus on most of their posts Bobisland (talk) 16:32, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

You can report an editor to Administrator's Noticeboard Incidents. Additionally you can add a warning to their user talk page. See WP:UTT for a list of templates you can use. If the editor continues despite repeated warnings, you can report them to ANI or other noticeboards. Millows! | 🪧 17:38, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi Bobisland, to qualify as a vandal, they must be deliberately attempting to mess up Wikipedia. Being incompetent, or pushing a point of view, isn't vandalism, but may still lead to a user being banned/blocked, or an IP address blocked.

I wouldn't recommend going to ANI unless the problem is really serious. If a particular article is getting messed up by one or more IP editors (not signed in) you can request that the article be protected at WP:RFPP. Admins at ANI are often reticent to block an IP address because they are often reallocated dynamically and may be used by multiple editors. Blocks will tend to be short, just to get the attention of the editor, if it's suspected that they aren't aware of the talk-pages. ANI is more necessary for logged-on editors with accounts, who cannot be stopped by page-protection, and who can potentially be banned for longer as they are individuals, not IP addresses. In the first instance, attempt to communicate with the editor. Don't get into an edit-war with them. There is an overview of the various dispute resolution procedures at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Elemimele (talk) 19:08, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Ok, where do you think is the best place to report users pushing a point of view with poor editing Bobisland (talk) 04:51, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Wiktionary in "In other projects"

Hello,

The tools menu in Wikipedia articles has a section called "In other projects" which has a list of Wikimedia projects the corresponding corresponding entry. I was reading this page and noticed that Wiktionary is not in that list although it is included in "External links" section of the page.

For me, it would be logical to have the Wiktionary linking in "In other projects" section of the tools menu. Iku-Tulo Vilutar (talk) 08:54, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Iku-Tulo Vilutar, the "In other projects" is related to the Wikidata item where links to other Wikimedia projects are maintain. However, Wiktionary is not linked to, so it is not viewed by default. Toadette ^(chat)/_(logs) 10:10, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Iku-Tulo Vilutar: Articles don't have Wiktionary links under "In other projects". Articles are about topics. Wiktionary is about words and they often have muliple meanings with different Wikipedia articles but a single Wiktionary page. Some words only have one meaning but it has been decided to not include Wiktionary on articles. Some other pages like Main Page and help pages can have Wiktionary links. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:21, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Understood. Thank you @Toadette @PrimeHunter Iku-Tulo Vilutar (talk) 05:22, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Help required for Article Ajay Gupta

I am seeking for help regarding Draft:Ajay Gupta. Wanted to check whether the person is eligible for creating an article or shall I go for deletion? I read about notability, however, not able co-relate. If anyone can explain it than it would be better. As per my understanding, all the references were reliable from newspapers. VKG1985 (Talk | E-Mail | Contrib) 13:13, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

It's going to be really tricky. As well as WP:NBIO, have a look at WP:NAUTHOR in case his book helps. The difficulty may be that he is in that middle category of jolly good people who've done something useful, but not big enough to have attracted enormous independent attention. Step 1: To demonstrate notability, you will need newspaper articles or similar about him and his work that were not prompted by him, and are not blatant interviews. Just three such articles would be a more powerful demonstration of his notability than a large number of interviews and articles prompted by press-releases. It is also unhelpful that he has a very common name, which makes Google searches difficult. Step 2: Remove all language that seeks to emphasise his exceptional achievements, and instead just write, in very "boring" terms, what he has done. "He set out on his entrepreneurial journey when he was merely 16 years old." is not appropriate for Wikipedia; instead just say what he did, aged 16. Unfortunately in this example your source won't help, as it also neglects to say what he did. Hopefully you can find better ones. Elemimele (talk) 15:15, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Elemimele, It helped a lot. Let me check for reliable sources & I will also change the content as per the guidelines. VKG1985 (Talk | E-Mail | Contrib) 06:26, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Name Question

CU blocked

ccan i have the president of amaricaa username? Ministry of amarica (joke) (talk) 06:52, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello and welcome to the Teahouse.

No, you cannot use the President of the United States (Joe Biden) as your username as it is against Wikipedia's username policy. See WP:MISLEADNAME. 🛧Layah50♪🛪 ( 話す? 一緒に飛ぼう！) 07:18, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

@Layah50 Yes, that would be against the Wikipedia rules. Usernames have to be appropriate and safe, without spilling any personal information. Thank you. StrawberryChi'sCake (talk) 07:21, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Misleading usernames are not permitted, Ministry of amarica (joke). Throwing (joke) into such a username is not a good idea, because it may indicate that you are not here to build an encyclopedia. Cullen328 (talk) 07:23, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Please help. Draft article rejected

Hello!

I am a newbie here. I have drafted a page, but my article has been declined. Could you please assist me by reviewing my rejected article draft?

Draft:JAY (iKON)

I would appreciate it if you could take a look and help. Thank you! Kentzeli (talk) 18:27, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

On the top, it explains the reason for rejection. Cwater1 (talk) 18:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Kentzeli, Cwater1, declining a draft is not the same as rejecting it. This draft was not rejected; it was declined. The reason given is that the references provided "do not show significant coverage (not just passing mentions) about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject". I can't comment on whether this is a fair criticism because I am as ignorant of South Korean boy group starlets as I am of, say, Japanese girl group starlets (so I might not recognize "significant coverage" if I saw it) and perhaps also because I can't read Korean. However, I note that you (Kentzeli) aren't asking (let alone complaining) about the non-acceptance of the draft; you're asking for a review. The way to get a review is to submit the draft. To submit it, click Resubmit. -- Hoary (talk) 21:58, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Kentzeli I read that "Jinhwan's exceptional artistry shone through in his participation in the "Dracula" musical," [my bolding], cited to a website that merely has a brief mention confirming that he would appear in a supporting role. Such PUFFERY is one of the reasons that drafts are declined. You need to stick to the facts and remove all material not explicitly stated in the sources. Mike Turnbull (talk) 10:19, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Certified Trainers from Namibia

Good day all, hope you are all well and keeping good. I wanted to ask if any of you knows any Namibian Wikimedian that I can reach out to. I am from Namibia and in the process of organizing a project in Namibia. I will be good to engage and collaborate with a Namibian.

Thank you. 197.243.233.54 (talk) 11:39, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Go to Wikipedia:Userboxes/Location/Namibia and click the links marked "linked pages". See also Wikipedia:WikiProject Namibia. Shantavira|^{feed me} 11:46, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Grammar checker?

Which Grammar checking software is allowed on Wikipedia? I know Grammarly inst but which are? or are they all not allowed? Subariba (talk) 20:36, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi, and welcome! ~~As far as I know,~~ spellcheck software is not banned on Wikipedia. However, be careful with spellcheckers, as it could mess up markup if using the source editor, and they are not really smart enough to detect things such as American vs British English (as Wikipedia uses both). Lastly, it's best not to use autocorrect, and instead manually check detected errors. 2NumForIce (^speak|_edits) 20:45, 28 August 2023 (UTC) edited 20:47, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Which one is the most used by editors? Subariba (talk) 20:54, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I actually don't know which spellcheck software is most used, but I would say either the one built into the browser/operating system or one made by Wikipedians. Again, I didn't verify this, but this is my assumption. 2NumForIce (^speak|_edits) 21:00, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

@Subariba: See Wikipedia:Don't use Grammarly. It is quite clear to me that grammar checkers aren't used in Wikipedia articles, because I am often correcting grammar in them. I have also not seen a grammar checker that can do as good a job as a human with a good grasp of written English. You can participate in Wikipedia:WikiProject Grammar if it's still active.

As for spell checking Wikipedia:Spellchecking has some guidance about tools and techniques. ~Anachronist (talk) 21:10, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Spellchecking is a good summary (but I'm afraid I have no idea what, if anything, Wikipedia:Don't use Grammarly is supposed to mean).

One thing missing from Wikipedia:Spellchecking is that you should not use tools like Grammarly to check other editors' work. The tools lack subtlety, and will often attempt to "correct" things that were actually correct (but rare) constructions, into things that are incorrect (but common) phrases. The tools cannot handle ambiguity, even if they recognise it. And they very rarely improve readability; a slightly "foreign" flavour in English written by a non-native speaker is rarely a problem.

Bottom line: if your English is bad enough that you need Grammarly, you won't be able to recognise when Grammarly has messed up, so you're not safe to use it. If your English is good enough to assess Grammarly's output, you don't need to use it. I will be rude, and suggest that the whole premise behind Grammarly is to convince people who can actually write quite clearly, that they cannot. Elemimele (talk) 14:43, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Anachronist, @Elemimele - I think the intention of Wikipedia:Don't use Grammarly is to warn people that Grammarly can mess things up in the source editor, and the stuff at the bottom is supposed to be an illustrative diagram of that. Something like this?.Either way, all of that is in Wikipedia:Spellchecking, so not sure why we have two of them. casualdejekyll 22:43, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I also think so. Probably turn off autocorrect features and add the Wikipedia:Spellcheck dictionary to the allowed words. ~~2NumForIce (^speak|_edits) 22:45, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

@Casualdejekyll:, that makes sense. Your tabulated sand-box version showing the source code before and after being mangled by grammar-checking is much clearer. I like it! Elemimele (talk) 12:41, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't use grammar/spell checkers. Given my edits are in the area of palaeontology, spell checkers constantly flag up genus and species names as incorrect spellings when they are not, as for grammar, sometimes phrasing which may not appear grammatically correct to some software is actually correct. Lavalizard101 (talk) 15:01, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

New Page Reviewers (Help)

I'm fairly new to creating articles on the encyclopedia but I have been learning about the acceptable tone used on wikipedia for some years now and I'm trying to create a creative editing streak by creating quality articles that meets wikipedias notability policies and moving it directly to the mainspace without being speedy deleted. Im leaving the article here if any autopatrollers or new page reviewers are interest in copyedit or simply reviewing the page. You can find it here Doc Shebeleza (South African musician)

You can leave a message on my talk page if you want to talk further.

Cheers! Frankymulls (talk) 10:57, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Frankymulls, welcome to the Teahouse!

You have some language issues which break WP:NPOV. You need to write in a dispassionate, neutral tone. You have some WP:PEACOCK wording which should be removed. Not sure its ready for Mainspace yet: you could move to Draftspace or wait for a reviewer to come along. Qcne (talk) 11:57, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

@Qcne, it seems that Frankymulls has already started a draft article by the same name on 27 August. See Draft:Doc_Shebeleza_(South_African_musician). Note well that Doc Shebeleza (South African musician) is a separate page from Draft:Doc_Shebeleza_(South_African_musician).

Some admin assistance might be needed to remove the mainspace article?

@Frankymulls, thanks for being constructive and starting an article in the draft space. I encourage you to work on Draft:Doc_Shebeleza_(South_African_musician) for the time being, until it is good enough to be moved into the main space. I think it would be good not to do anything to the article Doc Shebeleza (South African musician) for now. Cheers, -- TheLonelyPather (talk) 15:44, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

please help

I uploaded a Non-free logo(file:Girlsfrontline logo.webp), but later I realized that I uploaded it in the wrong format (I originally planned to upload it in png format, but it was uploaded in webp format). Now I am unable to upload a new version in png format on this file. What should I do? SKBNK (talk) 15:25, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

@SKBNK: Welcome to the teahouse; I have uploaded the png for you at File:Girlsfrontline.png and replaced the webp with the png in the article (at no extra cost!). You can tag File:Girlsfrontline logo.webp with {{Db-g7}} or simply wait for it to be deleted (as an orphaned non free file). —Matr1x-101 _{(Ping me when replying)} {_{user page} ^{(@ commons)} - _talk} 15:43, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your help! SKBNK (talk) 15:47, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

@SKBNK: @Matrix-101: What is wrong with webp? It seems to be a flexible format that supports both lossy and lossless compression as well as animation, and supported by all browsers. I admit I don't see it often but once in a while I run across a website that uses it for most images. ~Anachronist (talk) 15:58, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

According to practice, when uploading transparent images, I still prefer the png format. SKBNK (talk) 17:01, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Where to add SELFPROMOTE notes?

Hello, is there more that needs to be done beyond this edit? Should I note this fact on the talk page of the article or anything, like {{COI editnotice}} or something? Not sure what to do here... --Engineerchange (talk) 17:24, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I would notify the user you reverted on their user talk page, but otherwise the edit is sufficient. If the action is repeated, you can try notifying WP:COIN, but the ball is in the other editor's court now. --Jayron 32 17:28, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, did just that! Appreciate the quick reply! --Engineerchange (talk) 17:32, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Talk Page Moderation approaches

Hi there, I am interesting in learning more about how Wikipedia moderates contentious articles. For over a month, I have been studying the Talk Pages archives for articles with active community sanctions. I notice that sometimes an unhelpful Talk Page discussion is hidden, collapsed to just an orange or green bar with a short description of the discussion. I have reviewed Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. While these guidelines explain the process for closing Talk Page discussions, they don't go into detail on the various tactics I have observed (e.g. collapsing discussion sections with orange or green colored bars). I would appreciate any insight you have! Allora0 (talk) 15:31, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

@Allora0: There is no guideline for duration or closing general discussions on article talk pages. There is a type of discussion known as a Wikipedia:Request for comment (RFC) and typically those can be closed after a week if it looks like there's consensus (not unanimity) of views among participants. Other types of discussion such as renaming also generally last a week unless there isn't enough participation to determine consensus. Discussions don't need to be "closed" either. Look at most article talk pages, and their archives, and you'll see that the vast majority of discussions just end by themselves. ~Anachronist (talk) 15:54, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

@Anachronist: Thank you - I have noticed that most Talk Page discussions are not closed, but I am more interested in the edge cases. For example, here is a Talk Page discussion that has been closed in the color orange and collapsed (i.e. you have to click "show" to view the discussion). Here is another example of a closed discussion, but it is highlighted in green instead of the standard purple. Can you explain the significance of 1) orange versus green in closing discussions instead of the standard purple, and 2) when/why would a discussion section be hidden and who has the ability to take this moderation action (an extended-confirmed editor or higher perhaps?). Allora0 (talk) 17:18, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

@Allora0: There is no real significance to the color, they're just whatever color the template designer used. There are several templates for encapsulating discussions. In the cases you linked, one used {{hat top}} (identical to {{archive top}}) and another used {{collapse top}}. Each template has a corresponding "bottom" template also to complete the wrapping, such as {{hat bottom}} and {{collapse bottom}}, respectively. You can see the plethora of related wrappers at Category:Wikipedia archived wrapper templates and Category:Collapse templates. ~Anachronist (talk) 19:08, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Level 4im Warnings

Is it appropriate to use a only warning when an vandal outright calls somebody a Nazi? Seawolf35 (talk) 19:26, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Welcome to the Teahouse, @Seawolf35. I assume it wasn't Putin who was editing, so I'd suggest that such a warning might well be appropriate, although it depends very much on context and the perceived intent of the insult, and even who made it. In general, it is always better to warn someone in a gentle way about the language they use towards others. Is it a one off 'moment of madness', or a typical pattern of behaviour being used towards one or people on a regular basis? All these things create that context. Without it, it's rather hard to say. If it's a vandalism-only account with a fair dollop of self-entitled aggressiveness on top, then I'd be happy to give them an instant indefinite block. But I'd really need to see their edits to decide how to respond. Nick Moyes (talk) 20:14, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Content assessment

I am confused on how content assessment works exactly. I have read the pages discussing it and know that we can request for articles to be assessed, but what about the articles that have been assessed already?

Is there a time frame for when they may be reassessed? Does that process happen automatically for some (especially if they are of high importance) like when the articles are updated, or are we supposed to ask for them to be looked at again?

If I were to change the rating of an article, how/where do I give the reasoning for it? Is it on the talk page of the article, as a separate comment? And, eventually, will every article need to have an assessment rating on here? ViveLaSuisse (talk) 21:45, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

You're free to reassess an article at any time, if you feel that the previous assessor missed the mark, or if you feel that the article has substantively changed since the last assessment. My personal feeling is that it's fine to limit your reasoning to your edit description. If it somehow sparks controversy, that can be ironed out on the talk page.

And yes, the idea is for every article to eventually have an assessment rating. Pecopteris (talk) 21:49, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Great, thank you so much! ViveLaSuisse (talk) 22:22, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, ViveLaSuisse, but you aren't free to assess articles as GA, A, or FA, or to revert these assessments. I suggest that you limit yourself to Stub and Start for a while, only then add C, and avoid B for a year or longer. -- Hoary (talk) 22:51, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

This is an important addition.

An additional idea, I tend to only rate C-class or higher articles within my areas of expertise. If I don't know much about the subject, I'd stick with Stub and Start articles. Otherwise, my lack of ability to assess source quality, due weight, NPOV etc. within a niche topic area could lead to a mis-assessment.

Hope all of this is helpful. Pecopteris (talk) 23:03, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I understand now and I appreciate the helpful advice from the both of you (@Pecopteris and @Hoary)! Thank you, again! ViveLaSuisse (talk) 23:56, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Intro lessons

The text box for the intro lessons for wikipedia editing, for instance "Introduce yourself" and "say hi" obscures the page so I can't see whatever I am supposed to click. In "Say Hi" the edit button is missing. Are these lessons important? Is there a way to drag the text box around? Linddaski (talk) 22:24, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Linddaski, these "intro lessons" don't sound at all familiar. I'm sure that they were created with the best of intentions, but I have trouble believing that they're important. (Certainly I never did them, or anything remotely like them.) Perhaps the best thing to do is to read an article about a subject that you know pretty well, and look for infelicities in the expression. Reword these, uncontroversially. (NB one modest action to avoid is the "correction" of US spelling to UK spelling, or vice versa.) Once you've done some of this kind of work and nobody has objected, look for statements that are hard to believe, and check that they really are backed up by the references cited for them. And so on, gradually moving from very minor and utterly uncontroversial edits toward edits that are a lot bolder (but that are of course soundly backed by reliable sources). -- Hoary (talk) 22:45, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

@Hoary I think they might be talking about the Wikipedia Adventure? I never did it either. -- asilvering (talk) 23:18, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Worth noting is that The Wikipedia Adventure only works with the source editor. The visual editor is not supported. Cullen328 (talk) 23:28, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, @Linddaski, welcome to the teahouse. Wikipedia Adventure is an old process of introducing newcomers to Wikipedia, it has become too old and needed a lot of rewrite. This situation is nearly existing on several Wikipedias who have this module. Why don't have a try on Wikipedia:NEWCOMERTASK instead? Open your preference, tick Display newcomer homepage and Enable the editor help panel. This will give you some more helpful guides during editing. -Lemonaka‎ 01:27, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Transjordan Frontier Force

How can I find out who put a particular photo up on the Force's page, please? Tjffje (talk) 11:05, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Tjffje: the short answer is, from the article's edit history.

The slightly more nuanced answer is that nobody "put a photo up" in an article, as such. It was uploaded (either to the English Wikipedia or to Wikimedia Commons), and then someone added to the article an image link to it. The uploading and the linking may have been done by different users. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 11:13, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Oh .... many thanks!

Still none the wiser, I'm afraid, because some years ago the photo wasn't on the page and a couple of years back it appeared. I am actually trying to find who did it because I have more photos on the same subject and am wondering if he/she would be interested in seeing them.

Just family histories/links etc. etc.! Tjffje (talk) 11:25, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

@Tjffje There are currently three images in that article and you don't say which one you are interested in. However, the article's edit history is not very long and it is easy to find this edit which added one of them, along with a good EDIT SUMMARY. Note how the diff I linked allows you to step through all the edits in turn, either earlier or later. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:26, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Many thanks for this too. I am completely new to this and have no idea what I am doing!! .... to which my wife thoroughly agrees!

The photo I am referring to is the one of Col. Paley. My father also served with the TJFF and I have a photograph album with a few photos of the Colonel and his daughter taken in 1946/7. Just wondering if I can find any connection, with whoever put his photo on the TJFF page, who might be interested in seeing them. 101.190.194.173 (talk) 13:00, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

@Tjffje (Please remember to log in before editing). That image of Col. Paley is a low-resolution charcoal sketch. If your father took good photographs in 1946/7 and you are now the copyright holder by virtue of inheritance from him, then I would suggest you scan the best image(s) and upload them to Wikimedia Commons so that they can be used in any article, including the TJFF one. Mike Turnbull (talk) 13:21, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Tjffje. The image was uploaded to Wikimedia Commons in 2013 by User:Robitsju, who has never edited the English Wikipedia, and has not contributed to Commons since 2013. This website has some information about the artist: Leo Arthur Robitschek was born at Vienna in 1893. In the mid-1930s he settled in British-Mandate Palestine, and over the next decade or so produced some 600 portrait drawings of the upper echelons of Levantine society, notably a large number of senior British officers and administrators, both resident and passing through, during WWII. Soon after the war, and before the foundation of Israel, he moved with his wife and son to Venezuela and died at Caracas in 1961. The person who provided that information speculated that Robitsju was his grandson. Cullen328 (talk) 00:04, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

The image was added to the article at 12:37 UTC, September 21, 2020 by User:Protozoon, who has been active on Wikipedia as recently as a month ago. Cullen328 (talk) 00:17, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Many thanks everyone. All very interesting and you all seem to know what you are doing, and what you are talking about, but I'm afraid I don't. To start off with, may I ask what Wikimedia Commons is? Tjffje (talk) 02:40, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

In very short terms: a repository where media files, images and the like which are freely usable with attribution are collected; it can be found here Lectonar (talk) 10:36, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Aaaahhhh I say very quietly. Not to worry though because somehow, this evening, I stumbled across a whole load of photos on some site (Flicker or something) which had umpteen of the very same photos that I have in my album of the TJFF Cavalry Regiment show at Samakh. A daughter then explained to me where these photos came from (National Archives UK) and we came to the conclusion that someone has probably donated their photo album to the National Archives who have for some reason put them up onto Flicker. The Archives (or Flicker) did mention that the photos were from "Israel and the occupied territories of Palestine", so I put up a comment that they were in error and that it was in Transjordan. So, relatives of Col. Paley, whose photo is on the Fli... site, may have found them by now. ... or maybe not! No worries though, I will leave it at that.

Thanks every for your understanding and help though. Tjffje (talk) 11:01, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Where to upload source file of image on commons?

If I made a diagram using some software, I'll have the saved source file to continue editing the diagram (e.g. Photoshop file) together with the exported image (e.g. jpeg). When I put the image on commons, can I also release the source file so that others can edit the diagram and release new versions? Mtanti (talk) 10:26, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mtanti Commons only accepts a limited set of free file types, which won't include proprietary Photoshop ones. See c:Commons:File types. So I think that the best you could do is to upload the .jpg and mention somewhere on the file's page that interested people could contact you by email to request the original editable version. Many diagrams on Wikipedia are .svg files, which can be re-edited in free software like Inkscape. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:14, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Problem with Image Database

File:Actress Violet Farebrother.jpg shows up image searches for Hermione Gingold, but it is not in WikiCommons for Hermione Gingold. The image could be a young Hermione Gingold, but it has the name of another actress, Violet Farebrother. This is a significant issue, Hermione Gingold did a cameo in Around the World in 80 Days in the 1950s. Starlighsky (talk) 04:12, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

What searches are you talking about? Google Knowledge Graph pulls from a variety of sources in a confusing way. RudolfRed (talk) 04:51, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I was editing a Wikipedia article, and I used the "add image" tool. It provided this image as one of the images of Hermione Gingold. Starlighsky (talk) 04:54, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@Starlighsky This is a quirk of the search software. If you look at the file's page at the link you supplied, you will see that its source was stated to be "https://www.ebay.ie/itm/1936-Actors-Hermione-Gingold-Violet-Farebrother-/233008435345?hash=item3640629091" which has Hemione Gingold within the URL. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:28, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Starlighsky (talk) 11:50, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Changing the title of a Wikipedia Page

I want to change the name of the page Brake run into 'Brakes (Rollercoaster)' because the current title of the article doesn't allow for explanation on other forms of rollercoaster brakes, which are not notable enough for their own article, but could be included in the article should it's name be changed. WikiHmmmm... (talk) 11:51, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello and welcome. Changing the title of an article(the preferred term for encyclopedia content, not the broader "page") requires moving the article to the new title. I would first suggest that you discuss this on the article talk page first, to see if any other editors that follow it might disagree. You may then request the move at Requested Moves if you don't wish to do it yourself(which can be done with the "Move" function under the Tools drop-down menu at the top of the article. 331dot (talk) 11:56, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

How do I create an article directly?

I want to create a redirect page "Blue sea dragon" redirecting to Glaucus atlanticus, but I noticed that there seems to no longer be a way to directly create articles. I am autoconfirmed with an account. How do I create the article without going through Articles for Creation or the Article Wizard? TypoEater (talk) 11:55, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello and welcome. Since you are autoconfirmed, you should be able to directly create articles. If you type the title of the article you want to create in the search bar, it will (of course) not be found, but a link will be provided for you to create it. You can also do something like edit your sandbox or user talk page to add a link to the nonexistent article to accomplish the same thing. Unless you have much experience in creating articles or having drafts accepted(I haven't looked to see if you are), it is highly recommended that you use the draft submission process so that you can get advice as you go and before the draft is formally part of the encyclopedia as an article(when it will be treated more harshly). 331dot (talk) 11:58, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

If you just want to create a redirect, go ahead and pardon my response above. 331dot (talk) 12:00, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@TypoEater Note that there is already a redirect Blue Dragon sea slug and you could create Blue sea dragon just by clicking on the (currently) redlink. Consider categorising the redirect, presumably using {{R from alternative name}} or one of the more specific scientific options at {{R from alternative scientific name}}. Mike Turnbull (talk) 12:07, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Article rejection

Hi I'm a newbie at editing but I tried to abide by the 'notable' criteria for a biography article and included over 12 citations from credible secondary sources that were entirely based on the person referred to in the article but still my article was rejected stating "they do not show significant coverage (not just passing mentions) about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject (see the guidelines on the notability of people)". The article is Draft:Mohit Joshi . Please guide me where did I went wrong and how should I resubmit it to get approval?Draft:Mohit Joshi Tanmay.s.15 (talk) 13:15, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Tanmay.s.15 Hello and welcome. The good news is that your draft was "declined", not "rejected". "Rejected" has a specific meaning, that a draft may not be resubmitted. Declined means that it may be resubmitted. You may do so simply by clicking the blue "resubmit" button at the bottom of the decline message left by the reviewer.

Please read the messages left by the reviewer carefully. Wikipedia is not a place to merely tell about someone and their accomplishments. A Wikipedia article must summarize what independent reliable sources with significant coverage have chosen on their own to say about the person, showing how they meet the special Wikipedia definition of a notable person. Wikipedia wants to know what sources consider to be important/significant/influential about this person, not merely what their accomplishments are. Based on your text, he seems to be an ordinary CEO. Is he known for implementing a unique business strategy that others emulate? Does he have a particular, personal influence in his company's field? (say like Elon Musk) Something like that. 331dot (talk) 13:21, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Weird question...

...but IP editors seem to suddenly be making en-masse talk pages just for articles I've created: -

While nothing actually untoward has happened this seems very odd and I'm just wondering if I'm missing something. BoomboxTestarossa (talk) 14:18, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi @BoomboxTestarossa: they seem to be adding WikiProject tags, which are intended to flag up the article/draft to relevant Projects, and form the basis for subsequent article ratings. Nothing to worry about, but if you start adding the Projects yourself then this will probably stop. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 14:22, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Ah, excellent, will try to do so going forward, just the mechanical nature struck me as odd. Thank you =) BoomboxTestarossa (talk) 14:25, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Adding "The" to a title

Hello. I've put up an article called The Garland of Sulpicia with a redirect page called Garland of Sulpicia. But it occurred to me that it might be more in conformity with Wikipedia practice to put it the other way round. What is the usual rule regarding "The" in a title? If you agree that it would be better to call the article just "Garland of Sulpicia", could you please delete the redirect page for me, so that I can then change the title of the main article. Thanks. Kanjuzi (talk) 13:40, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@Kanjuzi There is guidance at WP:THE. It is not usual to create redirects with "The" prefixes. Most editors can't move titles over redirects, so you will now have to make a move request. Mike Turnbull (talk) 13:49, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and moved the article. Deor (talk) 14:15, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! Kanjuzi (talk) 14:39, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Celebrity Name Change

Hello, I am trying to make changes to the Wikipedia page for British Supermodel Kate Moss. She is listed as being born 'Katherine Ann Moss' which is not correct Factsonfashion (talk) 13:41, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@Factsonfashion Her full name is cited multiple times in the article's infobox. If you think that these are wrong, please take this up at Talk:Kate Moss. You will need to provide cast-iron sources for any change. Mike Turnbull (talk) 13:53, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

incidentally, is nearly every image in that article and its talk page broken for anyone else? cogsan • (give me attention) • (see my deeds) 14:37, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

No, they're loading fine for me. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 14:39, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@Factsonfashion, since you are an employee of Kate Moss Agency LTD, please read and comply with WP:PAID. You can request changes to the article via {{edit request}}s on the talk page. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 14:37, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Draft:Darren Isaacs

Good day.

I need your assistance with my two articles title "Makosi Consulting" and Darren Issacs in the draft space. I have provided sources and references, the company has won awards with a recent one being in February 2023. Please, point me out and assist if you can MollelwaFahaSaBasotho (talk) 05:59, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Courtesy link: Draft:Darren Isaacs Draft:Makosi Consulting. Please read and follow the reviewer's advice at the top of each piece. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:16, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

MollelwaFahaSaBasotho, it's not clear that Isaacs has any notability independent of Makosi. Putting aside the question of the notability of Makosi, I see no reason for an article on Isaacs. -- Hoary (talk) 09:43, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

The OP also contributed to an earlier deletion discussion on the same topic at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Makosi Consulting. Sounds like there's a WP:COI going on here. Nick Moyes (talk) 13:09, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Teahouse hosts are here to advise, not assist. My advice is that neither of these drafts establish notability, there is no hint that better refs exist, the awards and recognitions are minor and thus do not contribute, and in conclusion, the drafts should be abandoned. David notMD (talk) 14:58, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

How can I get help in creating my company's wiki page?

I need a neutral perspective in writing about my organization that is 25 years in the industry. Any help will be appreciated. Happbits (talk) 14:28, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@Happbits, Honestly, the best advice I can give you is: DON'T . It's very hard to write neutrally about a company you work for. If you decide to do so anyways, remember that everyone here is a volunteer, so you might not receive any help. Nevertheless, I wish you happy editing! Industrial Insect (talk) 14:39, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I assume this relates to Draft:Calsoft. Please read the messages on your Talk Page and comply with the policy at WP:PAID before doing anything else in relation to that Draft. Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:53, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Happbits, and welcome to the Teahouse. I echo Industrial Insect's advice: DON'T.

Writing an article is one of the most difficult tasks for an inexperienced editor. I liken it to picking up a violin for the first time, and immediately arranging a concert at which you will perform. When you have a conflict of interest it is many times harder.

When you have made the mandatory declaration of your status as a paid edit, as Mike Turnbull says, then I suggest you read PROUD, OWN, NCORP, and BACKWARDS. Then if you have understood all these, and you have found the independent, substantial sources that are a non-negotiable requirement, you can try creating your draft. Throw away everything you have already written, as it is useless. Forget absolutely everything you know about the company, and write a summary of what those sources say about it - nothing else. If none of them mention something that you would really like the article to say: tough. If some of them say things that you really really don't want the article to say: also tough: you must not leave those out.

Wikipedia is not interested in what the subject of an article says or wants to say about themselves, or what their associates say about them. Wikipedia is only interested in what people who have no connection with the subject, and who have not been prompted or fed information on behalf of the subject, have chosen to publish about the subject in reliable sources. ColinFine (talk) 15:01, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Adding to the Accolades for the live action little mermaid film

The Little Mermaid won the Film of the Year award as well as Best Actor in a Motion Award (Halle Bailey) for the Bulletin. Here is the link for the awards: WINNERS ANNOUNCED: Bulletin Awards 2023 — The Bulletin (onthebulletin.com) Rincemermaid (talk) 16:00, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@Rincemermaid, Thanks for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to change it. We encourage you to be bold in updating pages, because wikis like ours develop faster when everybody edits. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. You can always preview your edits before you publish them or test them out in the sandbox. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 16:15, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Question from IP

I was researching Linux distros, in particular, a cut down version for use in routers, and came upon this...

"On May 6, 2003 Cinege updated the LRP website to reflect that the project was being abandoned."

When you click on the reference, it takes you to a page that I find objectionable. The page you end up at has nothing to do with the topic and instead is full of crotches, and speaking as someone who has been celibate for 15 years. I found it quite a shock. I am here hoping someone will look up this quoted string above and use their judgement what to do about the reference link. Thank you very much. Douglas Goodall 2603:3024:1904:8860:55A3:4FC4:2768:7792 (talk) 16:27, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi IP Editor- I've changed the reference to unfit so it hides the original link, which is now a dead link and has been taken over by a porn site. The Archive copy still works. Qcne (talk) 16:49, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the fix, Qcne, and sorry you had to experience that, Douglas. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 16:56, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

No worries, my homosexual eyes are immune to such things! Qcne (talk) 16:57, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Should articles have a trademark symbol?

As in Lion lights. Kk.urban (talk) 16:47, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Nope, as per MOS:TMRULES Qcne (talk) 16:50, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@Kk.urban, using ™ is also a strong signal that an article has promotionalism issues, which I see ColinFine has tagged. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 16:59, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I removed them. 331dot (talk) 17:00, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

And somebody else has tagged it for Speedy deletion ColinFine (talk) 17:04, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Show me the way

Hello Sir, giving you brief history of I the user@Supriyomj16022008. First i started making article. It was continuing nicely then one day I want to give the title (Ramakrishna Mission Brahmananda College of Education) of my page. On July'23 I did first mistake and unknowingly instaed of giving title move the user from supriyomj16022008 to Ramakrishna Mission Brahmananda College of Education. Due to lack of my knowledge about wikipedia i did another one or two mistakes including the last one. Another mistakes like again started writing in the sandbox of username@Supriyomj16022008, publish it and then one day revert the user from Ramakrishna Mission Brahmananda College of Education to Supriyomj16022008. Believe me, unknowingly I did it. Please forgive me. Finally may be on 31st July'23 Liz moved the draft from Ramakrishna Mission Brahmananda College of Education to Ramakrishna Mission Brahmananda College of Education 2 for my work as I am a novice. From that day onwards I tried to update my draft. Now slowly slowly I may little familiar with wikipedia. The present condition is given now : I almost complete my Draft:Ramakrishna Mission Brahmananda College of Education 2. I shall try to add few things positively. Now please show me the way what to do next? I want to see my Article:Ramakrishna Mission Brahmananda College of Education (without adding 2) in the main space with all the updates of the draft. For that shall I do submit request of the draft. Thank you. Waiting for your reply. Supriyomj16022008 (talk) 13:37, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Here's the link:Draft:Ramakrishna Mission Brahmananda College of Education 2 for anyone wanting to comment. Karenthewriter (talk) 13:54, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@Supriyomj16022008 Mainspace has the article Ramakrishna Mission Brahmananda College of Education which has major deficiencies in its references. This will take a bit of sorting out.... Mike Turnbull (talk) 14:44, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

You have created an article and a draft. My recommendation is to abandon the draft and focus on improving the article. A large problem for both is that most of the references are to Wikipedia articles. Wikipedia articles are forbidden as references. I recommend deleting all of the Wikipedia refs.

@Mike Turnbull Thank you for your support. As you are telling about your confusion I agree. I shall try to follow you and focus on improving the article Ramakrishna Mission Brahmananda College of Education which is already in the mainspace and delete all of the Wikipedia references. But few questions are there in my mind. Please solve.

1. How to abandon the draft Ramakrishna Mission Brahmananda College of Education 2 ? Should I simply quit or I have to do something for the draft, its like again I have to revert the page and then start focusing on improvement of my article. 2. The article Ramakrishna Mission Brahmananda College of Education is the mainspace means what? Can you please tell me. Is it means that the article already submitted? or After improvement I have to submit the page? 3. In my query you see I already told about my few mistakes. Now Point No.1 I mentioned about reverting. If I revert then will I get my article in the userpage Supriyomj16022008 which is now not exist? — Preceding undated comment added 16:43, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@Supriyomj16022008 Please now edit only the live article Ramakrishna Mission Brahmananda College of Education which is in mainspace, the jargon word we use to mean the published encyclopaedia. Your old draft will be automatically deleted after 6 months of inactivity. Meanwhile, you can copy useful parts out of it to place them into the live article, if that helps you. Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:16, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia Theme CSS Available?

I want to change the color of my Wikipedia theme, but the CSS for the theme is blank. Is there anyplace where Wikimedia shares the CSS for its themes? Ablert A. Rock (talk) 18:54, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-rendering — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ablert A. Rock (talk • contribs) 18:56, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@Ablert A. Rock, Help:User style may have what you're looking for. Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:03, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi or stallion greetings from Prince Paul De-BLUEoyal how can I change and build up my new ID profile when necessary for update?

coding and navigation to access my account or database. 41.190.12.251 (talk) 19:21, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

What is your account name?

Wikipedia doesn't have "profiles". Wikipedia has articles. Editors have user pages. It is unclear what you are asking. ~Anachronist (talk) 19:28, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello. It sounds as if you have the (very common) misunderstanding that Wikipedia has anything at all to do with presenting yourself to the world or increasing your online presence.

It does not. If ever there is an article about you in Wikipedia, it will not belong to you, it will not be controlled by you, it will not necessarily say what you want it to say, and it should be based almost entirely on what people unconnected with you have published about you, not on what you or your associates say or want to say. Please see WP:PROUD and WP:notability. ColinFine (talk) 19:58, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

How do I make a new DYK for an article that has already had one?

I wanted to nominate the article Piano Sonata No. 2 (Shostakovich) for DYK because it was promoted to GA a few days ago. However, the following error message appears when I attempt to submit my nomination: "Creating nomination page: Failed to save edit: The article you tried to create has been created already." In 2021, I successfully nominated the same article for DYK when I expanded it by over 5 times its previous length, which accounts for the preexisting DYK template for this article. So how do I get around it to renominate? —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 19:32, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I found this: An article is ineligible for DYK if it has previously appeared on the main page as a bold link at DYK so perhaps it cannot be nominated again. There may be a place to ask for help on this at WP:DYK, if you don't get more answers here. RudolfRed (talk) 19:40, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your help! —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 19:58, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Why Wikipedia always in the process of fundraising?

Well, this is a strange question. Why Wikipedia or Wikimedia Foundation is always in the process of fundraising? The fundraising top-banner popped up several times this month, this might be a bad idea for raising money since people will get annoyed of such a frequent spam and may troll real donators away.

Anyway, does Wikimedia Foundation have a serious problem of inadequate funding? -Lemonaka‎ 01:20, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

You can see the annual reports and plans for spending at Wikipedia:Contact_us/Donors. There is also an email address there you can send your questions to. RudolfRed (talk) 02:06, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

According to the Wikimedia Foundation's Wikipedia page, by 2022, the WMF had 700 employees and contractors, annual revenues of $155 million, annual expenses of $146 million, net assets of $240 million, and an endowment of over $100 million dollars.

Besides your question, OP, other good questions include: what, exactly, is the WMF spending almost $150 million a year on? Why does it need 700 people on the payroll? Why, exactly, do they feel the need to ask for small-dollar donations so frequently, when they post over $150 million in annual revenue and have a quarter-billion dollars in the bank?

Another reasonable question: What do so many large corporate donors (CNN parent company AT&T, BlackRock, BAE Systems, Boeing, Deutsche Bank, Google, the International Monetary Fund, JPMorgan Chase, Pfizer, Verizon, and many more) feel like donating money to the WMF is a good use of their funds? Is it because the executives of these entities want to experience the joy of selfless giving? Or are there other reasons these financially and politically-savvy people think giving money to the WMF is in their interest?

These aren't rhetorical questions - some have clear, definable answers that are a matter of public record. I encourage you to look at the WMF's financial statements and lists of donors & benefactors. Other questions are not as easy to answer, but perhaps an investigative journalist will shed some light on this matter one day. Philomathes2357 (talk) 03:14, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Do you have evidence of improper influence on Foundation staff or articles by companies that have donated money? Have you proposed that the Foundation not accept funds from companies? 700 employees and $9 million difference between revenue and expenses doesn't sound that bad for a global website with expensive computers to keep running, lawyers needed to navigate the laws of 190 plus sovereign countries and potentially help editors in legal trouble, and trying to be accessible to everyone on the planet, doesn't sound like it has a lot of fat or unneeded expenses. I'm in no way saying your questions are unreasonable but any nefarious intent here must be pretty well hidden. If an investigative journalist finds it as you suggest, I'd love to see it. Perhaps I digress. 331dot (talk) 12:13, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Not atm, but if it stops fundraising, sooner or later it will have one. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:35, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I point ouf that top-tier American universities have billions of dollars (Harvard 51.9 billion), yet they all aggressively solicit funds. By comparison, WMF's reserves are extremely modest. David notMD (talk) 12:01, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Lemonaka Do you have the fundraising banners turned off in your account preferences? 331dot (talk) 12:08, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@331dot Thanks, I turned them off. Okay, now this is just a technical issue instead of something political. -Lemonaka‎ 12:42, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

The relationship between enwiki's editors and the WMF is quite complicated and often adversarial. At some point, someone should make a Template about it so we don't have to type out a long explanation of WMF politics to sufficiently answer (and in the process, probably bore to death) people asking questions at HD/the Teahouse casualdejekyll 20:12, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

"Coord" template bot

Hi,

How would I go about creating a bot that moves coord templates down from the top of the page? (They break the page previews when put at the top, but work fine when placed at the bottom of the lead paragraph, or anywhere else in my experience) LOOKSQUARE (👤️·🗨️) talk 16:36, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@LOOKSQUARE: If you wanted someone else to create it, you could use Wikipedia:Bot requests. If you wanted to create a new bot, see Help:Creating a bot. GoingBatty (talk) 20:43, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

What is settlement give examples

lisa nda 41.114.232.120 (talk) 20:05, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@41.114.232.120`: Welcome to the Teahouse! This is the place for asking questions about how to use Wikipedia. However, we cannot answer questions about your homework. Sorry! casualdejekyll 20:06, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

You could read the article Settlement and the articles in the subcategories of Category:Populated places. GoingBatty (talk) 20:38, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@41.114.232.120: Hello! This venue is for questions specifically about Wikipedia itself.

If you have any questions with this subject, feel free to ask your question at the reference desk, and they'll be more than happy to answer your questions. QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 21:58, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I really, really, really want to improve this article.

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

This article is one of the top articles I want to improve. However, being a semi-new editor, I am not sure if I have what it takes to improve this article to B-class (or even GA status if I'm lucky). Please notify me of any constructive criticism either here or on my talk page.

Thanks for answering, Tarantula^TM (speak with me) (my legacy) 04:54, 31 August 2023 (UTC).

Well, TrademarkedTarantula, since you ask: Templates ~~the~~ that criticize or warn should do so scrupulously and fairly, but you lament/complain that "Statistics like these should have a citation" after statements that lack any statistics (in any of the senses of this word that are familiar to me). By "statistics", do you perhaps mean "assertions"? That oddity aside, just work on improving the article; don't worry about "B" or "GA". When it's a [lowercase!] good article, then start thinking about having it promoted. -- Hoary (talk) 09:39, 31 August 2023 (UTC) Typo fixed -- Hoary (talk) 23:12, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

For a start, delete images in the gallery that exist elsewhere in the article. David notMD (talk) 12:06, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@Hoary, I may have accidentally copy-pasted the wrong word, so I will replace that. Tarantula^TM (speak with me) (my legacy) 23:02, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Is it worthwhile to leave a message on an IP address talk page?

An editor not using a Wikipedia account just added a paragraph to the Dirty Sally article stating the series' episodes are considered lost. A reference was given, citing a reference book that I own, so I know the data added did not come from that source. I plan to remove the new paragraph, and comment on it at the article's talk page, but I don't know if I should try to reach out to the IP address and politely state that someone may have made a mistake. A little guidance would be appreciated. Karenthewriter (talk) 23:27, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

My two cents: it only takes a minute to do. It might help, and can't possibly hurt. So I tend to reach out to IPs. For me, it's a part of assuming good faith. Pecopteris (talk) 23:43, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you Pecopteris. I went ahead and wrote a message on the IP address talk page. Karenthewriter (talk) 00:15, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Is there a way to try to ever see about an article edit?

Hi everyone, would there even be a way to ever try to see about an edit to an article being made by anyone at a specific time? Basically I’m wondering if there is any way someone could see if there is a type of edit being made at a time where the edit would be recorded essentially in a log that has information which would really ever have an eventual platform. Rosetie (talk) 23:07, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi Rosetie. Sorry, I'm not entirely following your question.

One note: On any article, next to the "edit" button, there is a "history" button. This allows you to study a log of every edit that has ever been made to the page, from the moment of :its creation.

Does that answer your question, or are you asking about something more specific? Pecopteris (talk) 23:14, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

No, that’s not helpful at all. I’m specifically asking if there is any way someone could see if there is a type of edit being made at a time where the edit would be recorded essentially in a log that has information which would really ever have an eventual way to reverse them. Rosetie (talk) 23:28, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

@Rosetie: As far as I can tell Pecopteris gave you the answer. The associated history page has a log of all the edits made to the article, and you can click on the linked timestamp to see the page as it was after that edit. Whether a revision can be reverted really depends on if there were any subsequent edits made afterwards, which can make it impossible to undo using the associated undo link. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 23:40, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Actually, no, Tenryyy, Pecopteris answered a question I didn’t ask. Rosetie (talk) 23:55, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

They answered to the best of their ability in a way that appeared to answer your query.

From what I understand of your question, you're either asking if there is a way to look for a specific edit made to a page at a particular time, or perhaps even more esoterically, how to find every edit being made at one specific point in time (which is impossible given how Mediawiki handles edit conflicts). Those edits can be found in the History link next to the edit links at the top of the page. If you've scrolled away from the top of the page, the sticky header (provided you're using the default skin) has a

icon that you can click to bring you to that same page.

If that still doesn't answer your question I strongly suggest you fundamentally reword what you're asking for, because right now it has very strong "has anyone really been far even as decided to use" energy. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:17, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I still really want to be able to understand this question, but as of now it remains an enigma. Pecopteris (talk) 00:34, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Are you asking about Wikipedia:Recent_changes_patrol, where recent edits are checked for vandalism and other things? RudolfRed (talk) 23:26, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

No, I’m not. I’m asking would there even be a way to ever try to see about an edit to an article being made by anyone where it would be visible at a specific time and also be able to have it saved. Rosetie (talk) 23:31, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Rosetie, choose an article that neither is particularly long nor will (because of the fame or notoriety of its subject) have been edited particularly vigorously. Tell us which article it is. You ask about "trying to see about an edit", but this is vague. Tell us exactly what you want to see about an edit, or some edits, or all the edits, to the article that you have chosen. Then you may get a helpful reply, from which you can extrapolate a technique for investigating other articles. -- Hoary (talk) 23:57, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Not sure if this helps you, but within Vew history, clicking on the date in an entry shows what the article looked like on that day, but in addition, clicking on "prev" to the left shows the before and after content of the edit that editor made on that date. David notMD (talk) 00:10, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

"Has Anyone Really Been Far Even as Decided to Use Even Go Want to do Look More Like?" Ca ^{talk to me!} 00:16, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes! Congrats, Ca, on the most apt comment so far, and very likely the most apt comment possible. (May I just add that I believe that our education like such as in South Africa and, uh, the Iraq, everywhere like such as, and, I believe that they should.) -- Hoary (talk) 01:21, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@Rosetie: I am also struggling to undertand what you are asking for - perhaps if you try expressing it in different words, instead of just repeating the same words again, people might have a better chance to help you. I do have one suggestion that might be what you are looking for. While looking at the Page History (described above), you can display the exact differences that were made in any edit. Just before the time stamp of each edit, you will see radio buttons. Select any two and click the link near the top to "Compare selected versions" - it will show the list of differences between them. If you apply this to just the edit you are interested in, you will see precisely who changed what, when. Is that what you are after?--Gronk Oz (talk) 02:09, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@Rosetie: You ask about edits being made at a particular time. To the best of my knowledge, the system only records the time that an edit is saved, and in principle, that occurs instantaneously. It would theoretically be possible to identify all the articles or pages over a particular range of time, and in principle, it would be possible to analyze the nature of that change. I presume this would have to run on the host, and you'd need to be able to demonstrate how this would improve or otherwise benefit Wikipedia, while at the same time, not have a material impact on Wikipedia performance. (My disclaimer is that I have no knowledge about this kind of stuff, other than I am aware that there are all sorts of bots and background tasks that are running at any given time. Fabrickator (talk) 03:14, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

References

Dear all, after a negative review, I have revised the bibliography for my article but now I believe that the references are too many. Could someone please help me select around 8-10 strongest references? I am not sure the criteria is still completely clear to me. (For example, while a press note about the person counts for notability, an interview in a prominent professional media does not, neither are the pages proving numerous fellowships). I guess I need help here:

Draft:Svitlana Biedarieva User18762 (talk) 23:53, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@User18762, at a quick glance it looks to me like this person is too early-career for a Wikipedia article - she got her PhD under 5 years ago. I see that she has two books in progress. If these are monographs (ie, if she is the sole author), she will almost certainly have strong notability claims once they are published. -- asilvering (talk) 00:46, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

What happens next?

I uploaded a file that seems to have some issues since it is non-free content. Apparently a bot has already correct it but I'm not sure. Can any administrator please shed some light for me? Thanks! File:El Torito mural by Amado de la Cueva.jpg Mizaelc (talk) 21:07, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) @Mizaelc - there appears to be a bit of a mess going on there. The file is still marked as non-free content and the first revision of it will be deleted next Monday, but not the current version. The licensing says something about book covers even though this is a painting, right? I see it's been sourced from a 2018 book, but de la Cueva died in 1926, so the mural is in the public domain, at least according to the guidance on Commons... so why can't you just upload it to Commons? casualdejekyll 21:35, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

See also {{PD-art}}: Wikipedia's policy is that photographs of 2D works of art are not eligible for copyright protection separate from the original work of art. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 09:17, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your guidance. I uploaded the picture this way because didn't take it myself. If you guys think it is suitable for Wikimedia I'll give it a try. Mizaelc (talk) 02:54, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Draft Massimo Faraò

hello can you please help me to make correction to the article/page Massimo Faraò ? is not clear what i have to change or modify, thanks a lot Massimo Faraò Massimo Faraò (talk) 01:31, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Draft:Massimo_Faraò seems to have very little content and no sources at all. Check out WP:REFB for help with that. Also, read the guidance at WP:AUTO. RudolfRed (talk) 01:33, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Massimo Faraò. Unreferenced biographies of living people are forbidden by policy. Writing an autobiography is an example of conflict-of-interest editing and is strongly discouraged. Cullen328 (talk) 03:44, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

@Massimo Faraò: Read WP:BACKWARD carefully and understand it thoroughly. Then start over on your draft. You must find multiple instances of significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of you. Only after finding such sources can you begin writing an article, based only on what those sources say, and not what you know. If you cannot do this, then your draft cannot be published. ~Anachronist (talk) 06:18, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

How to make a article protected?

2023 Asia Cup article should be protected, because many times IP users removed, reliable content. Tesla car owner (talk) 06:22, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Tesla car owner. Wikipedia:Requests for page protection is the proper place to file a report. The shortcut for future use is WP:RFPP. You are expected to provide evidence. Cullen328 (talk) 06:31, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Adding to what Cullen said, an admin agreed with you so the article is now protected for 3 months. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:34, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Multiple regular users are removing the OPs content because it is POV and written in poor English, that's the actual problem here. They have just received a final warning for it. Black Kite (talk) 08:12, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Use of CN tag for facts generated through listing

Hello. I would like to ask a question. With WP:VERIFIABILITY, a core content policy stating All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists, and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material., and WP:CN A "citation needed" tag is a request for another editor to supply a source for the tagged fact: a form of communication between members of a collaborative editing community. in consideration, I would like to bring an example and ask my question using it.

A source reports a settlement's destruction in war, but the source falls short of reporting about its inhabitants' fate. The key here is that the source does not mention their fate at all.

This destruction of settlement is then listed in an article/list titled as a "Massacre", and thus, generating an -unverified by the available sources- fact that its inhabitants were massacred.

My question is: is it OK to use a CN tag to request verification supporting the settlement's inclusion to that list?

Reason I want to do that: It is a big claim to suggest that the inhabitants were massacred. I believe a claim of this kind that can't go without the necessary in line citation verifying that it is indeed a massacre to justify inclusion to the list of massacres.

Reason I am asking: I am told that that CN tags may only be used to verify the content itself, not about how this content is used on articles and lists. - ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 09:59, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

@SilentResident Welcome to the Teahouse. If I understand you correctly, it sounds as if {{failed verification}} template might be more appropriate than this one:^{[citation needed]}. Yes, there may be a citation supporting some, all or, indeed, none of the content. So showing that it failed verification can be very helpful. Obviously, it would be great if you could do some research yourself to establish the published facts, one way of the other. But if you can't then the CN or 'failed verification' can be used to highlight any concerns. If you think it's actually a gross misrepresentation of the known facts, then it could be reasonable to remove the listing entirely and to leave a talk page discussion to explain your concerns 9or to post concerns first and then boldly delete 7 days later if nobody responds)

If you read the documentation at FV, it explains how you can add a reason or refer to the talk page for a discussion. It would look like something this, and display the reason when you mouseover it.^{[failed verification]}

Does this help? Nick Moyes (talk) 10:38, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Oh yes, indeed it does. I am delighted to know. It's more or less similar to what I was doing already regarding verifiability, just better. Much appreciated! Have a wonderful day! --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 11:05, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Listing where an annual event was held...

Should I list just the Town/City? Or should I list both the Town/City and the Country?

I nearly always list both (no matter what the articles are about), however I'm updating an article which doesn't have a pattern (and is therefore a bit of a mess), so things like each years categories are listed in a different order, and some years mention the country while others don't.

Should host countries always be mentioned, as I think they should? Danstarr69 (talk) 09:06, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

There is probably guidance about this somewhere within Wikipedia's couple dozen Manual of Style pages, but I don't feel like looking through them(and nobody reads them anyways). For me, I don't use country names when the location is already painfully obvious, such as New York City and Paris. For most cases, you can just list Town/City, except when listing the country is crucial for context. Ca ^{talk to me!} 10:48, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

@Danstarr69 You don't mention the list article you mean, so it is difficult to comment but, of course, linking to the correct city name will in most cases make naming the country less important as readers can follow the link if they wish. For Wikignomes, some advice is at WP:GEOLINK. Mike Turnbull (talk) 11:55, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Can I add this content on wikipedia or is it illegal ?

I have gained access to some page of a company on multiple url "sec.gov" and I wanna be sure it's legal to put it on wikipedia. It can theoricaly be access by anyone if you have the link and/or if you know the proper google search query but the probability of someone finding it are near to nothing. One of reason I ask the question is because the company which I have some data about is on the top 50 of something they call "Fortune 500" with I looked a bit about and I dont want to have legal problem with big company like that, so here to reformulate my question : can the content I just mentioned above be used on a wikipedia page without getting some legal repersecution or shall the ".gov" and "sec.gov" content not be used on wikipedia or at all? I will take your answer seriously and till then I will continue on search this data until I have confirmation (or not) that I can use this data. 178.197.199.236 (talk) 12:54, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi, IP178, and welcome to the Teahouse! Generally speaking, it's not illegal to use content from .gov sites on Wikipedia, but I can't give any more of an answer, including whether it'd be appropriate for Wikipedia, unless you give more details about your specific situation. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 13:00, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Hello, IP user. I'm getting the impression from the way you're referring to it that the information you want to add might be contentious, but I suspect that in most cases, sec.gov is a primary source (As Writ Keeper says, it's hard to say more without knowing the specifics). Irrespective of whether it is a government source, and how easy it is to find, I advise you to be very cautious indeed about adding possibly contentious material without a solid secondary source for it. ColinFine (talk) 14:30, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Ping me

Hello!

I noticed that the notification icon has a bug (among other bugs with the interface), and I want to screenshot it to report it.

Please just ping me so I get a notification, nothing more. One ping is enough. QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 14:26, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Like this, QuickQuokka? ColinFine (talk) 14:30, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

@ColinFine: Excellent! To future editors: One ping is enough, I already screenshot it! QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 14:33, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

@ColinFine:

Done QuickQuokka ^{[⁠talk • contribs]} 15:00, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

AfD personal stat tool

Hi! I can't remember where I saw it, but I recall there being a tool that enabled you to look at your personal statistics for deletion discussions, comparing your !votes with the outcomes. I want to check my stats to see where I land in terms of reflecting community consensus when I vote and see if I need to adjust my approach accordingly. Thank you. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:22, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

@Pbritti: I think this is it: [20] RudolfRed (talk) 15:24, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

@RudolfRed: Brilliant, that's the one! Thank you! ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:27, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Gordon J. MacRae

Dear TeaHouse: Praise be to Jesus and Mary! I am seeking an experienced wiki biographer to please help finish a draft I began of Gordon J. MacRae. I am NOT an experienced biographer. Anyone interested, please help and feel free to do you yourself; you do not need my permission to move forward on this. Thank you, and May God bless you and May you have a wonderful day. holylove.org (Marian shrine with many blessings attached). ServantofGod2 (talk) 17:41, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Courtesy link: Draft:Gordon J. MacRae {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 17:44, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Well, there's certainly sources.[21][22] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:23, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello @ServantofGod2! Welcome to the teahouse! I'm afraid as Wikipedia is mostly a volunteer service, you'll likely have trouble finding people to help you. I've also taken a brief look at the draft, and it doesn't seem suitable for Wikipedia. Read Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#NEWS like the reviewer linked into the draft. A Wikipedia article is given to those with "notability". Among those requirements is not simply being known for one thing, as it seems the subject of your article is. God bless you and happy editing! Industrial Insect (talk) 18:38, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@ServantofGod2: See WP:BACKWARD and follow the guidance given. Find independent sources (Gråbergs Gråa Sång listed some links above) and write the article based on what the sources say, not based on what you know or what MacRae says. ~Anachronist (talk) 19:31, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I did some research to see what I could do and whilst there is a wealth of sources, most of them would not be accepted by Wikipedia standards. There seems to be a series of articles by the Wall Street Journal (Link to one of those articles which I can't read due to paywall) which could yield some good information but unfortunately I don't believe it's enough. From what I've read, Father MacRae does warrant coverage of his ordeal but regrettably Wikipedia doesn't seem to be the right place for this coverage. Best wishes in all future endeavors, from Clyde Jimpson of the Arkansas String Beans (talk) 15:41, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect data in Fallbrook, California listing

Government information in this article — Fallbrook, California — is not correct, and I don't know how to edit. Can an editor fix this?

Government[edit]

INCORRECT: "In the California State Legislature, Fallbrook is in the 38th Senate District, represented by Democrat Catherine Blakespear,"

CORRECT: "Fallbrook is in the 40th Senate District, represented by Republican Brian Jones."

INCORRECT: "Fallbrook is in California's 50th congressional district, represented by Democrat Scott Peters."

CORRECT: "Fallbrook is in California's 48th congressional district, represented by Republican Darrell Issa." 2603:8001:D540:A066:D863:B112:6D76:E3D9 (talk) 15:15, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Why not post this to Talk:Fallbrook, California? You say you don't know how to edit, but it's clear that you know how to add an edit request to a talk page. That's exactly what the talk pages are for: to suggest improvements to the article.

When you propose an improvement, however, you should also include links to sources for verification. You have not done so above. ~Anachronist (talk) 16:02, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

IP editor. The second part is certainly correct, thanks, based on this URL which is the current version of the existing citation, so I've made that change. Congressional boundaries changed in January this year, apparently. I can't make the other database cited in the article work correctly, so that needs a better source. Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:06, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Userbox help

So i just began working on my userpage, While it is a time consuming task i want to figure out how to straighten the userboxes so they are in a straight line rather then all over the place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Subariba (talk • contribs) 15:56, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Hey @Subariba! Welcome to the Teahouse. You can organise your userboxes by encasing them in two templates: {{Userboxtop}} and {{Userboxbottom}}. To do this, lay it out like below:

...

Hope this helps! Schminnte (talk • contribs) 16:12, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Subariba: I took the liberty of adding some {{clear}} templates to hopefully resolve the issue for you, presuming you wanted horizontal rows instead of a column. Revert if that's not what you were looking for. GoingBatty (talk) 16:15, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

references

There is a reference list and locations in the article's body that link to list items. Which do I develop first, the reference list or selected items in the body? Additionally, some items in the reference list are associated with elements in the body while others are simply on the list with no corresponding word or sentence in the article's body. Is this okay or does every item in the reference list need to have a corresponding element in the body?

Specifically, I have a list of ten items under the title "Select Books" but only five are cited in the body. When I format a book entry it automatically adds a superscript at the beginning. Therefore, as I format every list item, each one will have a superscript...yet only half of them will be reflected in the body. For instance, the first book in the reference list:

^[1]Tienken, C. H., & Mullen, C. A. (Eds.). (2022). The risky business of education policy. Routledge. ISBN 9780367622466

...isn't cited in the body. Does that matter?

Maybe I'm overthinking this but I'm confused. I wish there was a "Wikipedia foe Dummies" book available! Co1umbus (talk) 14:41, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Courtesy link: Draft:Carol A. Mullen - 199.208.172.35 (talk) 14:52, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

@Co1umbus The declining reviewer pointed out that you have not used the referencing process correctly. In particular, it is the software that automatically adds the bracketed links to the references, not you as creator of the draft. Please read WP:REFB and then ask any further questions here at the Teahouse. For a biography, it is not necessary to list everything that the subject of that biography has published and your main job is to show how the individual meets our specific notability requirements. Mike Turnbull (talk) 15:07, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I'll second the recommendation of WP:REFB — that's the reference part of our tutorial, which is the closest thing we currently have to a "Wikipedia for dummies". Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 15:09, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

References

^ Tienken, C. H.; Mullen, C. A. (2022). The risky business of education policy. Routledge. ISBN 9780367622466.

@Co1umbus: Good questions! Wikipedia always tries to build content following the sources, so the way most experienced contributors work is to find and read sources for a topic first, and then to build the article up based on those. Having generic sources at the bottom that are just used for the article overall, rather than to cite specific elements, is generally less optimal. If a source is useful enough to be included in the article, then it's presumably useful enough that it should serve as a citation for some of the article's content. For some articles, particularly those that rely heavily on books, it can make sense to have a list of books and then use shortened footnotes to cite them. That can be more complicated than the normal way of having a single reference section, though. Not sure if that answers all your questions, but hope it helps! {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 15:08, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback and coaching on my Wikipedia effort. I have a truly stupid question: How does one "save" work in-progress? I've added formatting to books in the Reference section and, while I see a Publish icon at the top of the page, there's no Save button. After doing my work, Firefox crashed and my edits were gone when I reopened my Wikipedia page. I'm not yet ready to Publish since there's more work to do. But maybe that's what Publish does...save the work without presenting it for a formal review. Co1umbus (talk) 16:26, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

@Co1umbus Yes, that's correct. The lawyers at the Wikimedia foundation decided that "publish" was a better term, since all saved edits are available to others to read, if you know where to look: and you are committing your edit to an irrevocable CC license. Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:32, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

OK to associate page with someone that doesn't call out mine?

Hi! Just started editing pages and wondering, what's the etiquette/protocol involved with associating a page with someone that doesn't mention the same page in their profile. Is that allowed? Frowned upon? Outright prohibited?

Thanks! CGHorowitz (talk) 14:36, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

I am not sure if I am quite catching what you are saying. Do you mean linking to articles? Ca ^{talk to me!} 14:59, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Sorry to be vague! Here's what I mean as a very hypothetical example:

Say I wanted to update the National Zoo's page to say "George Clooney visited on [make up a date]." I'd include a citation to whatever news article had that information. But obviously George Clooney's page wouldn't have a mention of him visiting the National Zoo on that day. So would it still be okay for the Zoo's page to include that info if Clooney's page didn't?

I hope that example helps make my question a little more understandable and not just more confusing. CGHorowitz (talk) 16:04, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely, CGHorowitz. Everything that's in an article should be verifiable from a source, but not everything that's verifiable is appropriate to an article. To take your example, it might be significant for the Zoo that Clooney visited it, but pretty trivial information about Clooney that he visited there. ColinFine (talk) 17:32, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

@CGHorowitz:, yes that would be OK. Keep in mind that there are no "profiles" on Wikipedia. This is an encyclopedia. And you don't own any article either. If there is an article about you, you shouldn't be editing it at all, but proposing changes on the talk page. ~Anachronist (talk) 16:04, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Got it - thanks! And apologies if I'm not using the correct terminology. I'm still learning. CGHorowitz (talk) 16:15, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Reliable sources

Hello,

I got into an argument with @Darknipples. I think Don Black's article should refer to him as a white power figure, not a white supremacist, because being a militant racist and former mercenary is notable and being racist is not. Even the Don Black disambiguation page calls him a "white supremacist activist". I told them so and they said, "That's great! I'll look into it!" i.e., it wasn't my place to cite a more reliable source, Kathleen Belew's "Bring the War Home", then they managed to conjure up. Where can I find someone to arbitrate? 2603:7000:D03A:5895:D901:AA0:611A:3336 (talk) 00:57, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

If you can't resolve it through discussion on the talk page, then WP:DR has guidance on how to resolve disputes. RudolfRed (talk) 01:35, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

An acceptable Wikipedia article summarizes what the full range of reliable sources say about the topic. Many reliable sources going back decades describe Don Black (white supremacist) as a white supremacist, and therefore, so too will Wikipedia. The only legitimate way to change that is to produce indisputably reliable sources that refute the claim of white supremacy. That would be difficult, given what Black has said and done over the last 53 years. I recommend that you read the useful essay Wikipedia:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. Cullen328 (talk) 03:36, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

To be clear, you don't think that a former Grand Wizard of the actual Ku Klux Klan and founder of the infamous Stormfront hate forums should be described as a "white supremacist" and to support this you are citing a book that introduces the man as "Don Black, a high-ranking Klan leader of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan,"??? Rjjiii (talk) 04:24, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

This editor is now resorting to ad hominem attacks on my talk page in their arbitration requests. DN (talk) 18:09, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Deleting an entry

The entry about me, R. Duane Ireland, is very inaccurate. How can I delete this entry in its entirety? If I cannot delete it, what action can I take to delete this inaccurate entry?

regards,

R. Duane Ireland Miss Boo cat (talk) 20:09, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi there, welcome to the Teahouse.

Unfortunately it looks like R. Duane Ireland passes #6 of the WP:NACADEMIC criteria, so we can't easily delete the article for not being suitable for Wikipedia.

If you have suggestions for the article, then you can post on the Talk:R. Duane Ireland or make an Wikipedia:Edit requests. Here's the relevant policy: WP:AUTOPROB.

Any changes you suggest should be backed up by a reliable, preferably secondary, source. Qcne (talk) 20:23, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Miss Boo cat, and welcome to the Teahouse! Rather than going straight for deletion, you might consider requesting changes be made by opening a new section at the article's talk page and providing reliable sources to back up your requested changes - by placing {{edit COI}} at the top of the section, the request will be flagged for review by other editors. You are permitted to remove unsourced material from the article by yourself. If you only want the article deleted rather than improved, please open a request at WP:AFD and make clear that you are the subject and would like the article to be deleted. Tollens (talk) 20:25, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

thank you for this information. I think I will request that the entry be deleted. Changing this is quite burdensome. My concern is that they are clear factual errors in the entry that simply cannot stand.

Duane Ireland Miss Boo cat (talk) 20:55, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

@Miss Boo cat: Apologies for not making clear above, but I just wanted to make sure that you are aware: opening a discussion at AFD is not a guarantee that the article will be deleted. If the consensus is that the article has value to the encyclopedia, it will be kept. Tollens (talk) 21:15, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

For more, general, information please read the guidance at WP:ASFAQ. Helping to improve the article is the best approach, I think, as Wikipedia is short of decent articles on notable academics, whereas it is full of biographies of minor "celebrities". Mike Turnbull (talk) 20:35, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Wow! I feel as though I am an absolute do loop here! For example, Michael A. Hitt is listed as my advisor in the side bar. This is not correct in that J. Duane Hoover was my advisor. I completed my PhD in 1977. How in the world am I to provide evidence to this support this fact? And there are errors in the text as well that frankly, are embarrassing to me. Miss Boo cat (talk) 21:15, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Miss Boo cat You can nominate it for deletion via WP:AFD. You will have to state a reason that is Wikipedia relevant; factual errors would be valid, perhaps providing as a link a university website entry about you. The process asks editors to state Keep or Delete. At the end, an Administrator makes a decision. Mostly likely the AfD would fail. As to why your 'corrections' were reverted - all factual statements in articles about living people require references - you provided none. David notMD (talk) 21:17, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

It is simply too much trouble to provide those references particularly given that my concern is the errors in the current text that are embarrassing. I am retired from the profession--clearly, I have no need for a Wikipedia entry. For example, the text states that I received an offer from Ohio State while interviewing with Texas A&M. This is factually incorrect. I did not receive an offer from OSU--I merely interviewed with that school. How can I provide evidence to support this change? It is embarrassing to me for this text to state I had an offer when that is not the case. Miss Boo cat (talk) 21:20, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Most factual errors don't have a good supporting reference. When that is the case, you can go to Talk:R. Duane Ireland - start a new section and just let them know you're the article subject and there is some incorrect information that should be removed. Someone will remove it for you. If you add the text {{Edit COI}} to the top of your request that should speed the process along. MrOllie (talk) 21:41, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

What do you mean start a new section? Miss Boo cat (talk) 21:43, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Oh, apologies. They changed the name of the button some time ago and I'm still not used to it. You should see a button at the top of the talk page called add topic. Posting there will be similar to posting here at the teahouse. MrOllie (talk) 21:47, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Not your fault. But all of this is incredibly frustrating and beyond complicated. Miss Boo cat (talk) 21:49, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

[1] Tienken, C. H.; Mullen, C. A. (2022). The risky business of education policy. Routledge. ISBN 9780367622466.

[1]