Jump to content

Talk:Israel–Hamas war/Archive 47

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 40←Archive 45Archive 46Archive 47

Requested move 13 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Israel–Hamas war → Israel–Gaza war – Despite the move request to Israel-Gaza war being closed as no consensus in February 2024, a lot has changed since then and RS have converged to use this name. This move is long overdue and aligns with the relevant Wikipedia guidelines of WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NAMECHANGE.

RS per WP that uses the Israel-Gaza war name as the title of their coverage category:

  • The Guardian: Israel-Gaza war
  • The Washington Post: Israel-Gaza war
  • BBC: Israel-Gaza war
  • NPR: Israel-Gaza war
  • The Conservation: Israel-Gaza war
  • Al Jazeera: Israel's war on Gaza

Other RS that uses the Israel-Gaza war name as the title of their coverage category:

RS per WP that uses the Israel-Gaza war in their coverage:

  • Reuters: [1], [2], [3]: Israel-Gaza war
  • CBS news: [4] Israel-Gaza war
  • Vox: [5], [6]: Israel's war in Gaza

This name change would also align with a third Wikipedia guideline, all five of the WP:CRITERIA one, namely #5 on Consistency, as this would align with Gaza War (2008–2009) and 2014 Gaza war. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:05, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Update to add other RS mentioning Gaza instead of Hamas in one way or another in at least one instance:
  • Save the Children: [7]: War in Gaza as coverage category title
  • Haaretz Israeli newspaper: [8]: Gaza war as coverage category title (RS per WP)
  • Relief Web: Relief Web: Gaza war
  • Crisis Group: [9]: Gaza war
  • Norwegian Refugee Council: [10]: Gaza conflict Makeandtoss (talk) 11:38, 16 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. FOARP (talk) 15:12, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
    Support replacement of Hamas with Gaza in a new title (open to variations). It is both more accurate (not limited to Israel and Hamas) and recognizable in RS per original request. Mason7512 (talk) 20:26, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The nominator has presented no evidence that the common name has changed, just that a small number of selected examples use "Israel-Gaza war", and it is clear that the most common and recognizable name among our readers is Israel-Hamas war.
In addition, the title has accuracy issues - Gaza has no army and is not fighting this war, while Hamas does and is.
Regarding the evidence the nominator does present, it is highly misleading. For example, they imply Reuters has shifted to "Israel-Gaza war". This is false; in the past week they have used one article with that term, compared to many (eg. 1, 2, 3) for Israel-Hamas war.
They also cite WP:CONSISTENCY, but the proposed title is not similar to the titles they claim it would be consistent with, and even if it was the wars are too dissimilar for consistency to apply. BilledMammal (talk) 10:35, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
A commonly recognizable name per WP is a "name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable, English-language sources)," i.e. determined by RS not by readers.
As for accuracy, Gaza has no army indeed, but Hamas is not the only one fighting this war, as it is fighting alongside Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in the Gaza Strip. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:44, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
And "Gaza war" blows away both, see here. nableezy - 05:56, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Taking out the "-" character provides a clearer picture of what people are searching for. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 20:53, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support. Gaza War (2023-202x) would be best, but Israel-Gaza War is an improvement over the current title. It squares better with the facts and daily coverage on this topic is largely about Gaza. Israel-Hamas is one thread of the tapestry of this war, and arguably, one point of view; it is not the whole, but a part. The war includes more than the IDF, Hamas, and other factions fighting; Gaza has been largely reduced to rubble, reminiscent of WW2 photographs; its people are killed day in and day out, excused as "attacks on Hamas," and they run from place to place with what little they have left. Hospitals, schools, and infrastructure are bombed. Doctors and journalists are killed. History is erased. The Israel-Hamas War title focuses on the part, leaving out the other big pieces, and we know that leaving out information is one technique of lying. It continues a one-sided Western narrative, that it is a war on Hamas and civilians are, unfortunately, in the way, when the facts say otherwise.
GeoffreyA (talk) 11:52, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
So you wish to replace the "Western Narrative" with you narrative? PaPiker (talk) 17:52, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
I only wish for all narratives to be replaced with the truth. GeoffreyA (talk) 19:24, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
Your truth? PaPiker (talk) 01:24, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
No. I don't believe in the notion of "one's truth," which is subjective. Rather, truth is the accurate mirroring, at a certain level of abstraction (quarks vs. atoms vs. humans), of Nature or the state of affairs out there. Unfortunately, the medium of human language is prone to a host of problems. Of course, Wikipedia has other principles to go by. GeoffreyA (talk) 07:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
The only "truth" that matters on Wikipedia is the one that is shown by reliable sources, and they consistently call it the Israel-Hamas War rather than the Israel-Gaza War. I wouldn't be opposed to creating a redirect that takes it to this page and including it the lead, though. Jdcomix (talk) 15:50, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Certainly. That's why I added that last sentence. GeoffreyA (talk) 16:42, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
This is about the war, and by the way, the article still mentions the humanitarian consequences. But if you are concerned about the coverage of humanitarian issues, see Gaza genocide, Gaza humanitarian crisis (2023–present), and the many other articles detailing Israeli war crimes. Personisinsterest (talk) 11:33, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Strong support, since the current title is a legal, philosophical and logical nonsense IMO. Correctly, wars are either between organisations (Government of Israel – Hamas) or between countries (Israel–Gaza). Mixing up the two feels badly incorrect. Also it smacks of propaganda (to give a feeling that the entire nation is fighting an organisation). Yet we wouldn't say "US – Ba'ath Party war" (rather, a US–Syria war), "US–Taliban war" (it was US–Afghanistan war; NATO–Taliban war would be correct, too), etc. In short, the proposed title sounds infinitely better than the current one, however widespread the latter may be. — kashmīrī TALK 12:01, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
    ...or between countries (Israel–Gaza). Gaza, is in fact, not a country. 𝚈𝚘𝚟𝚝 (𝚝𝚊𝚕𝚔𝚟𝚝) 17:00, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose, for all intents and purposes Hamas is Gaza. They started this war and that is who Israel is going after. If it was all of Gaza the Gazans would all be fighting back but they are not, it's just Hamas and its sycophants. PaPiker (talk) 17:54, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
    Hamas is Gaza. Wow. Going by your logic, Israel is Likud. — kashmīrī TALK 23:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
    Hamas has subverted and replaced the actual authority of Gaza, the Palestine Authority. Hamas is not a political party. Hezbollah is a functioning political party. PaPiker (talk) 01:26, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The main participants in this war are Hamas and Israel. Gaza is a territory, not a side in the conflict. I don’t see any reason to change the title to something less specific. UnspokenPassion (talk) 18:42, 13 August 2024 (UTC) Blocked sock. SilverLocust 💬 06:38, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
    Are you suggesting that Israel is not a territory? — kashmīrī TALK 23:09, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
    Israel is a country with an army. Gaza is a territory controlled by a militant group but who’s de jure administrators are the PA. Personisinsterest (talk) 08:05, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Hamas and Israel are the key players. Gaza is just a place, not a combatant. Waqar💬 20:11, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Strong Support. I think that this seems like a considerably more accurate title than what we currently use for this page, given that the Hamas fighters are only a very small part of the targets. Also, this is not a war, just an extremely onesided massacre. David A (talk) 21:38, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
    WP:ILIKEIT is not a valid argument for moving a page. There has to be consensus among reliable sources to change the name, and there simply isn't at the moment. Jdcomix (talk) 15:51, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
    Hamas is the primary target with the other smaller groups less so. The fact that Hamas uses civilian infrastructure and civilians as cover/shields makes said infrastructure/civilians no longer safe. Launch rockets from a hospital the hospital becomes a target, same thing with schools et al, coupled with Hamas not allowing some people to leave some areas. The people that can leave the area are leaving. PaPiker (talk) 17:37, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose Theres going to be no consensus on this issue like what happened last time. Fundamentally the issue is that reliable sources are mostly using the term Israel-Hamas war some use Israel-Gaza war but not much in comparison to Israel-Hamas and I wouldn't include Al Jazeera I think we can all agree they are just a biased news source, we can look at Britannica's article on this event as an example of why we maybe shouldn't move the article. Also I encourage users to be as neutral as possible we can't be using original research I believe whats happening in Gaza is as bad as what happened in Dresden and Tokyo in WW2 but again these are just my opinions and doesn't mean that we can move the article because of said opinion. Black roses124 (talk) 23:42, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
    But this is an ongoing war in the future if most non biased articles use the term Israel-Gaza war I would most definitely be in favor of moving the article. My opinions is everyone take their opinion on how ethical the war is and everyone just just look at what most non biased articles are calling it. Black roses124 (talk) 23:50, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
    Also when it comes to Al Jazeera I also support Palestine but a news agency needs to be independent you can be publicly funded and still be independent but Al Jazeera is not an example of that. They have clear position on this conflict their twitter account posts anti Semitic memes, they make videos minimizing the holocaust, they accuse YouTubers of working for Israel etc. One only needs to look at Al Jazeera controversies and criticism to see they are not independent and are not non biased. Black roses124 (talk) 00:07, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support per nom and kashmiri. Country-organization doesn't make sense. CNN has also used "Israel-Gaza war". Outside of exact matches a lot of RS simply mention "war in Gaza". I would definitely prefer something like "Gaza War (2023-2024)" (we already have the precedent of Gaza War (2008–2009) and 2014 Gaza War) since that is were the main action/destruction is taking place. That also saves us the headache of having to name the key players in the title. Similar articles are Vietnam War, Korean War, Malvinas War, Iraq War, etc. But the proposed title is still an improvement. - Ïvana (talk) 00:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
    I agree with you Gaza war seems the most sensible but again we need RS. Black roses124 (talk) 00:44, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support per my and others' comments on past move requests. The Israel-Hamas framing is an NPOV and an accuracy concern and that outweighs the prevalence of its use in RS, especially since RS are moving toward an Israel-Gaza framing as is the nature of the war with parties other than Hamas taking an increasingly prominent role in the fighting and strategic calculus. Unbandito (talk) 00:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. WP:COMMONNAME would be the WP:NPOV move. "Israel-Gaza" and "Israel-Hamas" could both be argued are POV framings. However, the nominator is WP:CHERRYPICKING in favor of one of these POVs here. The "Israel-Hamas" framing actually appears to be the WP:COMMONNAME, including in some of the RS nom cites. All/both POVs gripe about what they perceive as media bias. So let's stick to policy.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Longhornsg (talk • contribs) 05:45, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Support per nom. One thing about the WP:COMMONNAME of Israel-Hamas war is that Wikipedia partially decided on that common name back in October 2023 when the war first broke out. A year since the attacks, media organizations are shifting towards Gaza War (2023-present), Israel-Gaza War, or variations of the two. Changing the title to either of those two, in particular the former as it falls in line with 2014 Gaza War and the Gaza War (2008–2009), would still remain in COMMONNAME and be less biased due to not having interference from news organizations possibly running with the Wikipedia-generated title. Jebiguess (talk) 04:40, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
Just to point out that a few of your citations for how outlets also use "Israel-Hamas war", are older articles than those cited by the nominator, so it seems that RS are changing over time from "Israel-Hamas war" to "Israel-Gaza war". -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:01, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Of those outlets, I spot-checked three and all three also use "the war in Gaza". The term is easy to find in Reuters The Guardian and The Conversation . Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 04:37, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Yes, the terms are often used interchangeably, hence the rejection of nom's assertion that there's a WP:COMMONNAME. Point still stands about the overall coverage titling. Longhornsg (talk) 03:22, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Weak Oppose Google trends shows Israel Hamas War is more commonly searched for, despite it being obvious that this war isn’t just against Hamas Kowal2701 (talk) 16:36, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
    It also shows Gaza war is more commonly searched than Israel Hamas war. nableezy - 16:48, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
    It’s seriously flawed to compare counts of a two-word phrase with a three-word phrase. SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:46, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
    When comparing how often each phrase is used? nableezy - 23:14, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Support Israel-Gaza war. Both Israel-Hamas and Israel-Gaza are commonly used, but recently there has been a trend towards using Israel-Gaza. Israel-Gaza war is more accurate because the war is not just Hamas anymore. I oppose Gaza war (2023-present) because the name of the war should include Israel, per WP:NATURAL, Israel-Gaza war makes more sense than Gaza War. Mast303 (talk) 18:02, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose Israel–Gaza war, which is a bit hard to make sense out of considering that Gaza is an Israeli-occupied territory; it's also less widespread than the alternatives. However, I would support Gaza war (2023-present) (I think dates are preferable due to the relative recency of the other "Gaza wars"). This (or "war in Gaza") seem to be much more widespread than Israel–Hamas war based on Google trends, it's also more accurate considering that only a minority of Palestinian casualties are Hamas fighters. WikiFouf (talk) 12:11, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
  • • Oppose An online encyclopedia does not get to name the war. Although personally I think it's plausibly a war waged on the Palestinian people primarily with Hamas merely as collateral damage, that is irrelevant because WP:COMMONNAME applies as supported by Google trends and many media outlets. 'Israel-Gaza war' does not make more sense as there is already Gaza–Israel conflict which this is a subset of anyways and the terms are too similar. Another point is that its simply too late to change it, its been ongoing for months and when people hear or read 'Israel–Hamas war' they know its about this one, 'Israel-Gaza war' is more ambiguous & 'Gaza War' even more so. 'Gaza war (2023-present)' is no better than 'Israel Hamas war (2023-present)' because you are dropping Israel from the label for no reason at all. Colloquially people don't even say 'Gaza war', if they drop Israel & just say Gaza then they say 'Gaza genocide' Drocj (talk) 07:58, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose, the proposed title is ambiguous and can refer to several other conflicts which involve Israel and the territory of Gaza (which is why it redirects to Gaza–Israel conflict). Sources appear split on both Israel–Hamas war and Israel–Gaza war, so we cannot explicitly refer to WP:common name. Other editors provide longer alternatives which include date disambiguation; the problem with this is that many of these proposed longer titles fail at both mention in reliable sources as well as concision, which is best explained as The title is no longer than necessary to identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects. The use of Hamas in the title accurately describes the scope of the article as they, alongside Israel, are the main belligerents of the war. While the current title blurs the involvement of other militant groups fighting alongside Hamas, the ambiguous Israel–Gaza war provides no mention of clashes in the West Bank nor confrontations in other territories. Renaming this page to a date-disambiguated title would also require some form of parenthetical disambiguation, whereas Wikipedia prefers the use of natural disambiguation if possible.
𝚈𝚘𝚟𝚝 (𝚝𝚊𝚕𝚔𝚟𝚝) 01:44, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Strong Support for Gaza War (2023 - present) followed by Israel-Gaza war. As pointed out by Kashmiri, wars are between states or between organizations. Since Palestine has now been internationally recognized by the UN as a sovereign state, it's even more relevant that we avoid the incorrect framing of this being about Hamas.
Internet search trends in the last 7 months also clearly shows Gaza War as the most common name and Gaza War + Israel-Gaza war (without the "-" character as helpfully suggested by @PhotogenicScientist) easily outstripping Israel-Hamas War. CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 03:27, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
Strong Support Israel-hamas war erases the role of other significant factions within the Palestinian Joint Operations room. That is, the PFLP, DFLP, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Popular Resistance Committees and various Fatah aligned militants. We at wikipedia should be careful to account for these things which may otherwise be swept under the rug.
Gaza war on the other hand allows us to also implicitly include the other parts of the P-JOR. Genabab (talk) 09:15, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
Strong Support There are many other factions in the war other than Hamas, including but not limited to, PFLP, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Lions' Den, etc. It isn't just Hamas who is fighting Israel in Gaza. Haskko (talk) 07:16, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
Blocked sock. SilverLocust 💬 07:56, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Recognition of the State of Palestine
  have recognised the State of Palestine
  have not recognised the State of Palestine
Common use in English is a very skewed POV, anything supported by "common use" in English language sources is going to have a United States / UK / Canada / India (BJP) / etc. bias, so anything in common use in English has a systematic bias wrt this war. Searching war and Hamas حرب حماس gets me European media in Arabic, and half of them still call it the Gaza war even in those search results. Searching all three gets me The war between Hamas and Israel الحرب بين حماس وإسرائيل France24 , The war between Israel and Hamas الحرب بين إسرائيل وحماس Germany's DW , UK, USA, etc. despite the search being in Arabic. As far as I can tell, the current title is exclusively used by media from the minority of countries who refuse to recognize the State of Palestine. FourPi (talk) 03:46, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
This is en.wiki - of course we're biased toward English here. What's the issue with that, exactly? PhotogenicScientist (talk) 13:49, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
I already explained that above. I'm disputing the claim that "common name" its unbiased. Because, as you say, of course we're biased, we're biased towards points of view in the English speaking world. Too many people seem to think that "reliable sources in English say" = global consensus. It very much doesn't. FourPi (talk) 17:00, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
Per WP:COMMONNAME, English-Language sources are the scope here. If it helps, it’s a great annoyance for me in other cases, where the German phrasing is significantly different from the English ones. FortunateSons (talk) 17:08, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
Maybe I didn't explain very clearly? My point was not that Arabic translation counts as WP:COMMONNAME. I was using that to show that common name in English has a severe WP:POV problem. Common name used in English skews severally pro-Israel / anti-Palestine But we can use translated names to pick which English common name reflects an unbiased view of the war. FourPi (talk) 13:37, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
I understand what you mean, but that is not what the policy says. In the same way, I cannot use the German/Hebrew versions to alter English names that I consider anti-Israel, particularly considering that arguably all 3 have a non-insignificant bias for one of the factions of the conflict. For example, the alleged commonname Gaza Genocide is arguably a NPOV violation against Israel, as there was no consensus that there was a genocide. Nevertheless, the move was (as of now) done. That term has almost no use in German and Hebrew (afaik).FortunateSons (talk) 13:49, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
I cannot use the German/Hebrew versions to alter English names that I consider anti-Israel
But you did actually cite hebrew and german-language sources in the move request of gaza genocide article to oppose the move in your large table. Stephan rostie (talk) 06:23, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
Yes, because they can be used as an argument that it isn’t a genocide, but not as an argument that it isn’t called a genocide. In the same way, one could use Arabic sources to say that „X % of fighting is against groups other than Hamas“, but can’t be used to show that the name „Israel-Hamas war“ is improper, because non-English sources can be used for facts/claims but not for names. Im with you on the policy being less-than-intuitiv, tho FortunateSons (talk) 07:03, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
@FortunateSons You are still missing the point. My point is NOT that Arabic can be used to determine common name. I probably explained it badly, but my point is that common name in English has a bias towards one side of the conflict. So we shouldn't use common name for this page. I'm not trying to find common name, I'm trying to show that common name is an inappropriate metric to use to name this page.
We should use a descriptive name instead. Or I honestly would support War of Iron Swords, it's attributable and too figurative to be inaccurate. FourPi (talk) 13:19, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
Ah, that makes sense, sorry, I assumed it was used as an argument against a specific common name. The issue is that no one can agree on a descriptive title, because no one seems to agree on the scope or aims of the war. I’m hesitant to support a title attributable to the parties, because we would have to decide which, but it’s definitely an interesting suggestion. FortunateSons (talk) 13:24, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
I was mildly surprised I couldn't find it called a genocide in Hebrew, even B'Telem is being a bit timid on it, but I'm not sure how clearly it translates (I've not tried Local Call yet).
I actually think the official Israeli name "War of Iron Swords" would be a lot better than either of the common name options being debated, I would strongly support that as a name. It's attributable, and it's not pretending to give any substantive information about who or where, so it's not misleading. FourPi (talk) 13:09, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, outside the English-speaking world, there is a wide variance in the frequency of use. FortunateSons (talk) 13:27, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Support, and copying my comment from the last time we had this discussion.The claim that Israel-Hamas War is a common name is bogus, if it were the common name you wouldnt see the Washington Post, The Guardian and so on all use Israel-Gaza war as the name of the conflict. As before, Gaza is what has been systematically bombed, Gaza's universities have been destroyed, Gaza's hospitals have been destroyed, Gaza's residents have been displaced and starved. This name is and has always been an attempt to push an Israeli POV that it is a war on Hamas. Gaza is what has had its water, electricity, and food cut off, Gaza and Gazans are what have been targeted throughout this campaign. Wikipedia is effectively pushing Israeli propaganda with this title, and it is non-neutral. Since this is a descriptive title, and not like people are falsely claiming the common name, it is required to abide by Wikipedia:NCENPOV: use a descriptive name that does not carry POV implications. The POV implications here are that Hamas is what is being attacked here, and that is and always has been POV-driven BS. None of these are common names, which requires an overwhelming majority of sources using a single name. They are all descriptive titles, and as a result we need a NPOV one. Not one that parrots the Israeli POV that this is a war against Hamas, despite all of Gaza being in ruin. nableezy - 05:50, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
    The strongest and clearest presentation of what should be the most important argument in this discussion. NPOV must override COMMONNAME in cases when they are opposed, or else Wikipedia can become overrun by systemic bias. Unbandito (talk) 00:41, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support. Both “Israel-Hamas” and “Israel-Gaza”/“Gaza war” are all used by reliable sources, however contrary to the beginning of the war which “israel-Hamas” was a somewhat acceptable term back then, the term by now doesn’t make much sense in the current circumstances anymore and reflect nothing than a political agenda (e.g US can declare war on putin or CCP for political agenda but that doesn’t mean that the war in reality/objectively is against russia/china). as by now there are full siege on Gaza not “full siege on Hamas”, a Gaza famine not “Hamas famine”, bombing of Gaza that destroyed or damaged 70% of entire Gaza’s building not “70% of hamas buildings”, and a Gaza genocide that most scholars believe israel has/is committing against all Gaza not a “Hamas genocide”. All now make very little sense to label as “Israel-Hamas conflict” anymore contrary to the beginning of the war. Adding to this older legit arguments that the Palestinian resistance factions fighting in Gaza are not just Hamas but range from the secular marxist as PFLP to salafist islamist as PIJ who are all fighting in one Palestinian front, that Hamas is the political party that rules Gaza government (which itself doesn’t mean every government employee “is hamas”) so it would be like calling it “Likud-Hamas war”, and that “Gaza war”/“israel-Gaza war” would be in correspondence with earlier existing articles (e.g 2009 Gaza war, 2014 Gaza war, 2019 Gaza war, Gaza–Israel conflict, etc). All combined leave very little sense to keep using the current title, especially by now.
Stephan rostie (talk) 14:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
@웬디러비: WP:!VOTE - Ïvana (talk) 21:32, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose Per Longhornsg. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 13:11, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. My opinion concurs with @Longhornsg's reasoning and examples, though given that there are a number of sources that also suggest Israel Gaza instead of Israel Hamas, I'd suggest including both in the lead if possible. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 15:06, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose - nothing has changed since the last time, so what makes the nominator think there will be a consensus this time? The sources call it the Israel-Hamas War (see Longhornsg's comment), and there have been numerous move requests on this page, none of which have succeeded. Jdcomix (talk) 15:49, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support It is instructive to look back at the 2014 Gaza war (How Does Israel's Last Invasion of Gaza Compare to Now?. Of course we have an article, Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip, for the current version and it seems to me that one of the useful things that could be done here is to merge the so-called "Israel-Hamas war" into that, since that title more properly represents the situation than this Israeli POV driven article title does, which purports to say that this is about Hamas, only about Hamas and that Hamas started it, which of course is ideological bullpoo.
In 2014, the "Gaza war" was the same thing, just check the list of belligerents. Israel invaded and said that the aim was to destroy tunnels and stop rockets (sound familiar?). "Gazan civilian casualty estimates range between 70 percent by the Gaza Health Ministry, 65 percent by the United Nations' (UN) Protection Cluster by OCHA (based in part on Gaza Health Ministry reports), and 36 percent by Israeli officials.(sound familiar?) Israel's "100-eyes-for-an eye spiral of violence" (sound familiar?).
OK, "only" a month and a half and no hostages so that's different but what a f'in waste of time, cos we were right back there again in 2021 and now once more in 2023/24, same adversaries, same Netanyahu, plus la change. This time around, blow Gaza to bits, destroy its hospitals, its schools, mosques, literally trash the place and kill 1 in 50 of the population, while still trying to claim it's all about Hamas. If Israel cannot completely do for Hamas (a likely outcome), then Israel can just colonially occupy and settle the place like they already illegally do in the West Bank and Jerusalem.
The very least we might do is acknowledge that Gaza is a target. Selfstudier (talk) 17:00, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Apparently, it's "not done" to acknowledge that Gaza is a target. GeoffreyA (talk) 17:26, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME as delineated by Longhornsg in his comprehensive missive above. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 17:05, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
    If it's a commonname (we bold those) why isn't it bolded in the lead? Hint: Because its a descriptive title and not a commonname. Selfstudier (talk) 17:21, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
    If it were the common name, you wouldnt see The Washington Post, The Guardian, BBC for example using something else. A common name is a single, obvious name that is demonstrably the most frequently used for the topic. That is not the case here, this is a descriptive title, not a common name. nableezy - 18:18, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support Israel wages a war on the Palestinian people, not just Hamas. Most wars are labelled by the countries. Calling this the "Israel-Hamas war" is an Israeli POV and not suitable for Wikipedia. When this article was created, some probably thought it would be a short operation against Hamas. I doubt anyone can honestly hold that view anymore. The neutral name is the one proposed in this RfC. Jeppiz (talk) 19:26, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The war is between Israel and Hamas, not Israel and Gaza. Sources are quite clear on that point. Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:11, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
    It is not true that the war is just against Hamas. It is also against the rest of the joint operations room (pflp, dflp, pij, etc…) Genabab (talk) 13:57, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose — Per Longhornsg, whose evidence makes clear that "Israel–Hamas war" is the WP:COMMONNAME for the war beginning on Oct. 7, 2023. While I can understand the desire to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS regarding the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza, I.M.O. that argument doesn't somehow make "Israel-Hamas" not the war's COMMONNAME and therefore the best article title. DecafPotato (talk) 09:24, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose - The war was a response to an attack from Hamas. Gaza is just a region. Nashhinton (talk) 22:27, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
  • If a move is to happen, move to Gaza War (2023–present). I think it's borderline impossible to argue whether "Israel–Hamas war" or "Israel–Gaza war" is the COMMONNAME, and both titles present NPOV problems: if it's "Israel–Hamas war", the implication is Israel versus terrorists; if it's "Israel–Gaza war", the implication is Israel versus civilians. Previous wars between Israel and Hamas are referred to on Wikipedia as Gaza Wars (Gaza War (2008–2009) and 2014 Gaza War) and using the location gets around the NPOV issues. I know some will note that the war isn't limited to Gaza, but neither were the 2008–2009 and 2014 wars, and this conflict is overwhelmingly unfolding in Gaza. JOEBRO64 22:56, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support Gaza War (2023–present) per TheJoebro64. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:19, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support Gaza war with or without the dates per Joe and my previous votes for that title in prior RMs. Levivich (talk) 23:58, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support Gaza War or Gaza War (2023–present) per TheJoebro64 and Levivich.Pachu Kannan (talk) 01:16, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support Gaza War (2023–present). I already explained why in my previous comment above (I actually proposed 2023–2024 but 2023–present is obviously the best choice). - Ïvana (talk) 06:06, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
    I would also support Gaza war or Gaza War (2023-present) as my second and third options respectively after Israel-Gaza war. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:02, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support Gaza War (2023–present) or the proposed title. Gaza war alone may also be appropriate, as the subject appears to have seized the primary topic space, but that may be a separate discussion – though a search for "Gaza war" on Google already directs to the topic. The current title is, by contrast, grossly inaccurate. Hamas is far from the only participant on the Palestinian side, with the PIJ, PFLP, Al-Aqsa Brigades and many more also participating. This non-geographical title also violates the basic tenets of WP:NCWWW, not even stating where the conflict is principally occurring. It is exceptionally odd to not be referring to Gaza at this point in the title, as the whole of Gaza is involved, and even the peripheral conflicts revolve around Gaza: the Houthis and Hezbollah have made a cessation of hostilities contingent on a ceasefire in Gaza. The war has involved the bombing of Gaza and the invasion of Gaza, while the Gaza Strip famine and Gaza genocide pages are corollary events. There are several names for this event, but most incorporate the name "Gaza", including Israel-Gaza war, Gaza war, war in Gaza, and war on Gaza. By contrast, "Israel-Hamas war" – merely one example in an archipelago of names – is the lone exception to the rule. It is far from the common name (and the suggestions to the contrary are rather risible), and it is now diminishing in prevalence. With the likes of the BBC, Guardian and WP now defaulting to Israel-Gaza war, there is little cause for further confusion on this. The current title is one with poor accuracy, lessening applicability, and its usage now pales in comparison (per Nableezy) to the wider discussion of a "Gaza war". Iskandar323 (talk) 07:42, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support: Gaza war with or without dates, also support above Israel-Gaza war. Per the nominator and kashmiri, the current title is misleading as I said in previous discussion. This conflict involves not just Hamas but all Palestinian resistance movements in Gaza. The broader involvement of groups like the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine demonstrates that the title "Israel–Gaza war" more accurately reflects the scope of the conflict. Additionally, the existing title suggests a conflict solely between Israel and a single organization, while in reality, it is a war that affects the entire region of Gaza and its inhabitants. Reliable sources (RS) have increasingly used the term "Israel-Gaza war," aligning with WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NAMECHANGE guidelines. Notable examples include The Guardian, The Washington Post, BBC, NPR, and Al Jazeera etc. — Ainty Painty (talk) 09:30, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support: this is not a war only on Gaza's ruling political party, it is a war on Gaza. Nobody is arguing that only Hamas members have been targeted. Multiple sources have used Israel-Gaza war, or simply Gaza war. None of the fighting has occurred in Israel, so Gaza war seems appropriate. 20WattSphere (talk) 02:51, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose: The OP says this should be brought in line with the Gaza War (2008–2009) and 2014 Gaza war but the big difference here is that this war was started by Hamas and it is who the war is against and thus needs to be recognized as such. There is no war here against Gaza. MaskedSinger (talk) 07:22, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    Hamas was the "main antagonist" for Israel (as it were), in all of these conflicts (as the governing body of the strip), so all of these were just as much "Israel-Hamas wars" based on the same shakey premise that is being maintained for the current title. Nothing fundamental has changed between these conflicts, so there is no obvious reason to switch for this conflict to an inconsistent and simultaneously imprecise and ambiguous descriptive title. The fuller truth is that the current title fails on numerous other levels as well, as elucidated by many editors further up this thread. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:34, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    Exactly! So it would be much more precise, accurate and correct to rename all of them to Israel-Hamas wars and then differentiate them by the year, etc.
    What is Gaza? There is no war with Gaza. Israel left Gaza on its own accord. To say there's a war with Gaza is a complete misnomer.
    Thank you for agreeing with me. MaskedSinger (talk) 08:55, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    “Of its own accord” is quite a euphemistic way of saying “putting it under full siege, controlling all aspects of its population including heir registry, resources, borders, water, and airspace, while continuing to commit crimes against its nationals int he West Bank, forcing them to live under occupation, settler pogroms, deprivation of rights, and administrative detention” The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 10:18, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    Well said. If anyone lives under occupation, it's the people of Gaza under the occupation of Hamas. Can other religions be practiced freely there? Can people be openly homosexual? Israel is liberating Gaza from the rule of Hamas. MaskedSinger (talk) 16:14, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    WP:NOTAFORUM Selfstudier (talk) 16:20, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    Christianity also has a small presence in Gaza Strip per sources. Pachu Kannan (talk) 16:38, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    Israel is doing a mighty fine job "liberating Gaza," flattening it to the ground. GeoffreyA (talk) 16:53, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    I also said "based on the same shakey premise", but those past events are not named that for good reason – and there's every reason to be consistent here. Since you're ignoring every single serious point being made here, however, it seems you have little interest in properly engaging with the naming discussion. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:37, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    No not at all. My vote isn't disqualified just because you don't like it. Sorry to inform you, but this isn't Iskypedia. MaskedSinger (talk) 10:43, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    It’s disqualified because you’re wrong. The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 12:53, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    MaskedSinger, Wikipedia is not a vote. !Votes (read as: not-vote) are weighted by the quality of the arguments presented, not by the numbers alone. And I would argue "There is no war with Gaza." is absolutely not a valid argument. Your !vote isn't worthy of being counted because it made no effort to even allude to Wikipedia procedures, and instead was based entirely on the mind-boggling assertion that Gaza isn't even under attack. I can't imagine any closer determining that such a !vote holds any weight.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 20:56, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
    If that's your preferred approach, why not name it the Likud-Hamas war, then? 20WattSphere (talk) 13:24, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose: An extremely regretful oppose, but Israel–Gaza war should refer to Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip rather than the entirety of the war from 2023/10/07 to the present-day. This is what seems to be the most neutral reception from what I do see anyway. Josethewikier (talk) 09:49, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support 2023 Gaza War or something similar, with the year (either "2023 to present" or "2023"): best reflects the accuracy and truthfulness of this very war. Josethewikier (talk) 07:54, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
    @Josethewikier: Why would there be two separate "named war" titles for different, overlapping periods of the same conflict? It's the same war, no? Iskandar323 (talk) 10:41, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    Hamas is the political party that has been causing problems for Israel, rather than Gazans. Naming the article with "Gaza" incorrectly places the fault of the initial attack of 10/07 on "Gaza" rather than the accurate Hamas. Israel remains the way it does because the country/state voted Likud in; Hamas should be seen differently from "Gaza" as Gazans did not elect Hamas in in the last 18 years, and none of the war crimes are the fault of Gazans and/or Gaza. Josethewikier (talk) 14:05, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    Hamas attacks did not happen 'in a vacuum', Guterres says
    ""It is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum. The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation," Guterres said." Selfstudier (talk) 16:23, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    I could say the same for the Israeli people, they were just luckier that its allies helped the Israeli government (too much so, might I add), which directly made is possible for Israel to occupy much/all of the Palestinian Territories in the first place, while the Palestinian government received no such degrees of help even from its closest of allies. Point is that this remains a war between Israel and Hamas, just that the victims are predominantly Gazan civilians caught between yet another Israeli invasion and much crossfire from both sides (though mostly Israeli). This is not to forget the 1,100+ victims of the first couple days/weeks of this war though, which were predominantly Israeli and had nothing at all to do with Gaza, its civilians, or most of its residents. Josethewikier (talk) 16:37, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    allies helped the Israeli government (too much so, might I add), which directly made is possible for Israel to occupy much/all of the Palestinian Territories in the first place, while the Palestinian government received no such degrees of help What Palestinian government? There was no Palestinian government in 1948 or 1967. Levivich (talk) 17:16, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    you're correct, and I never meant that. Compare Israel vs Palestine in the last 30 years or so, and their governments; anyway that is not relevant. If someone convinces me that a change in the title benefits the truth-telling of the atrocities the residents of Gaza face and have faced in the last 317 days specifically, I will retract my opposition. Josethewikier (talk) 17:25, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    Well, calling it "Israel-Hamas" war suggests it's a war between Israel and Hamas. Calling it "Gaza war" suggests it's a war in Gaza. Which of the two do you consider more accurate? Levivich (talk) 17:28, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    I do apologise this is turning into an argument. I sincerely request for convincing factors and not rhetorical questions. Asking me questions do not guide me towards the truth. Josethewikier (talk) 17:49, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    Accuracy is a convincing factor. Which of the titles (current or proposed) is more accurate is not a rhetorical question. Levivich (talk) 18:04, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    Also I'd disagree with had nothing at all to do with Gaza. They lived on the border of Gaza. This does NOT mean that what happened to them was in any way justified, but they were targeted because they lived on the border of Gaza, which is something to do with Gaza. Levivich (talk) 17:29, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    This is not to forget the 1,100+ victims of the first couple days/weeks of this war though, which were predominantly Israeli and had nothing at all to do with Gaza, its civilians, or most of its residents.
    if the above is inaccurate, please point any and all errors out; else, do not misquote me. Josethewikier (talk) 17:47, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    The 1,100 victims is who I'm talking about; they lived on the border of Gaza, that's not "nothing at all to do with Gaza," it's something to do with Gaza. They got attacked because they were next to Gaza. And the attack came from Gaza. That's all something to do with Gaza. Levivich (talk) 18:03, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    You are correct and I do apologise for the above statement. It's definitely not as straightforward as that, but I do get your point and agree with much of it. Josethewikier (talk) 18:08, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose: The current title is ok, although various titles are found in reliable sources.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 15:06, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support the proposed title (second choice) orGaza War or equally Gaza War (2023–present) (first choice) or another title that names Gaza. By now the main reason the war is notable is the mass casualties and destruction, not the underlying motives or the names of the belligerents. These details can go in the text of the article. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 15:31, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    Recent comments have persuaded me that "Israel-Gaza war" could make it appear that Gaza is a belligerent. I'm not against "Israel-Gaza war" but I don't think it's an improvement either. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 06:10, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
    To make things clearer for the closer: I do not support a move to "Israel-Gaza war" at this time as it could appear POV. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 23:20, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose: The current title is ok. Between media outlets, the title of this war vary. But the majority still say "Israel-Hamas". The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 16:16, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    Oppose because the title is fine and WP:COMMONNAME. We don't need to keep having these discussions about changing the article's name. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 21:35, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose: It doesn't seem like anything has changed since last time; Israel-Hamas War remains the WP:COMMONNAME per Longhornsg. — xDanielx T/C\R 16:30, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support. Now that the BBC has moved to Israel-Gaza, who is one of the most accurate mainstream sources in the en-world, im my opinion. I think a lot of the mainstream US-based media is still using Israel-Hamas, but given the US support for the war, they are probably less reliable as sources in this topic area. Aszx5000 (talk) 21:40, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    I live outside the US and I have most often heard it called "Israel's war on Gaza". I'm not sure I've actually heard the current title outside of Wikipedia. 20WattSphere (talk) 21:49, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    Well in Australia ABC have used "Israel-Hamas war" https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-10/six-months-of-war-destroys-gaza-strip/103684830 Black roses124 (talk) 23:16, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
    A quick search of the ABC website reveals:
    • Israel-Gaza war - 53 pages of results
    • Israel-Hamas war - 7 pages of results
    So looks like ABC are leaning heavily to the side of Israel-Gaza war. 20WattSphere (talk) 01:52, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
    Again as other editors have stated multiple news agencies of many different nations use both. I don’t disagree with you, I just disagree with the characterization that the United States uses “Israel-Hamas” and the rest of the world exclusively uses “Israel-Gaza” and Wikipedia is perpetuating American narrative it’s just not the case I don’t believe there’s any non biased news agency that has not used both. I don’t like Israel-Hamas or Israel-Gaza these are both POVs I believe Gaza war is the most sensible but even though I personally like Gaza war the issue is compared to Israel-Hamas, the Gaza war is barely being used a small minority just from a neutral perspective a majority of the coverage on this conflict is Israel-Hamas I’m not saying I agree with it but that is the COMMON NAME. Black roses124 (talk) 02:32, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
    Sure, but it sounds plausible that US media are more likely to use "Israel-Hamas war" than the average global outlet. For example, many of the outlets listed above as using "Israel-Hamas war" are American. This could lead to US readers considering "Israel-Hamas war" to be the COMMON NAME, while global audiences do not. 20WattSphere (talk) 11:50, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
    I agree definitely Anerican media is extremely likely to push that narrative due to the country’s strategic relationship with Israel. Extremely similar to how Al Jazeera will always push a pro Palestine narrative due to them being owned by Qatar when another conflict arises which it definitely will we all know which media will say what. I’m not really in a disagreement with you if this gets moved to Gaza war I’m all for it, that is the most neutral way to frame this war Gaza war is no POV but right now I don’t think there’s any consensus for our opinion. This situation is too controversial once this war ends I’m hoping people can be more open minded and consider a different title and take their personal opinions on how ethical the war is aside and just try to make a article that is the most non biased and neutral. Black roses124 (talk) 17:51, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The current title is sufficient for the time being. By the end of the war (hopefully soon) we should then revisit the discussion.--Excel23 (talk) 01:54, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
    Agreed. Black roses124 (talk) 02:35, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The current title, "Israel–Hamas war," remains the WP:COMMONNAME as evidenced by the majority of reliable sources, including in Eastern Europe, where I read the news. IntrepidContributor (talk) 04:39, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support. Israel and Hamas have been at war for 30 plus years. This conflict is Israel using "Hamas" as a pretext to destroy Gaza. Kire1975 (talk) 05:06, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
    @Kire1975 WP:opinion Alexysun (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
    @Alexysun WP:BLUDGEON Abo Yemen✉ 08:09, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
    Three comments. Don't go throwing around WPs that you don't understand. Alexysun (talk) 15:45, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
    @Alexysun, Everyone on the talk page basically gives their own “opinion” on whether to support or oppose a move, so your reply to @Kire1975 was unnecessary to begin with. StarkReport (talk) 16:02, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
    Oh no i do understand what that WP means and three comments were enough for that policy to be mentioned to me on previous rms, and that should apply to you, The Right Honourable, Sir, Chairman, General of the Armies, General of the Army, General of the Air Force, Admiral of the Fleet, Generalfeldmarschall, Reichsmarschall, Großadmiral, Alexysun Abo Yemen✉ 16:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
    Yeah strike that out strike that out. That's right. Alexysun (talk) 22:43, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
    ??? Abo Yemen✉ 06:18, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
    You have the right to give your opinion in any open discussion, so long as you aren't doing it in a way that limits others from doing the same. Kire1975 (talk) 17:56, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support The new title will finally correct the gross inaccuracies of the current title; Hamas is not the only organization fighting Israel in this war, not by a long shot. Furthermore, as the post notes, the majority of sources have moved from using the inherently biased "Israel-Hamas war" to "Israel-Gaza war." RealKnockout (talk) 17:22, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
    Hamas is by far the most important military fighting Israel. Names of wars usually aren't perfect, see e.g. Franco-Prussian War (many German states participated), the Hundred Years' War (not 100 years), etc. We still use them since they're WP:COMMONNAMEs. — xDanielx T/C\R 05:27, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
    @XDanielx Good point. @RealKnockout And also keep in mind that there's action in Lebanon and the West Bank and the assassination in Iran, so the name Israel-Gaza war would be misleading too. Alexysun (talk) 22:14, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Slightly oppose - Proposed title is better than the current title, but still inaccurate. Previous "Gaza War" pages (disambiguation link) are about wars that were only in Gaza? Whereas the page, 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis says "Palestine" and not "Gaza", despite the majority of the casualties being in the Gaza Strip. FourPi (talk) 02:55, 20 August 2024 (UTC) Blocked sock. SilverLocust 💬 07:56, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    I also support the opinion of FourPi. Pachu Kannan (talk) 08:56, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support Seems pretty straightforward that Israel-Gaza war is the term to use here, first because it is not merely a military conflict between Hamas and Israel but also other Palestinian factions, and second and more important because the entirety of the Gazan population and area has been subjected to the war.
As noted by others, the change also follows WP:COMMONTERM and WP:NAMECHANGES guidelines to accurately reflect how it is generally referred to now. Raskolnikov.Rev (talk) 11:40, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Since "Israel–Hamas War" is not the common name, the alternatives used in RS are at least viable options for the title. "Gaza War" or one of the variations on that is best for a few reasons: (1) it is consistent with the titles of previous armed conflicts between Hamas in Gaza and Israel, conflicts which RS identify as forming a continuous pattern; (2) it reflects the highly localized nature of the warfare; and (3) it represents a neutral middle ground between "Israel–Hamas War" and "Israel–Gaza War." ByVarying | talk 03:33, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Strong support: it is daylight clear this is not simply a war on Hamas, but a broader war on Gaza (or Palestinians in general, including the natives of West Bank and Golan Heights). Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 14:27, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Move to Gaza war As the source analyses above have demonstrated, neither "Israel-Hamas war" nor "Israel-Gaza war" are clear commonames, so that is not my main point of concern. Instead, the problem with the title is that many other groups besides Hamas have taken part in the conflict in Gaza, so the title is innacurate. However, "Israel-Gaza war" is sub-optimal, as it may seem to imply that Gaza is actually a combatant. Instead, we should title "Gaza war", which accurately reflects the scope of the article. Gödel2200 (talk) 14:08, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose per the source analysis above, Israel-Hamas is the commonname and arguably also the optimal descriptive title, naming the two primary combatant groups. There is no overwhelming use of any other name.
Of the titles that include Gaza, Gaza War (in whichever variety) is probably optimal. While it doesn’t geographically include the area in which the Casus belli occurred (which was in the Gaza Envelope, but not within Gaza proper), it does solve the consistency issue: Gaza is a territory, that may or may not (depending on where the editor lives) be part of the State of Palestine, but it’s not a State. Making a title State vs. Territory is less consistent than “entity controlling combatants on side one vs. entity controlling the majority of combatants on side two”, which we have now. Nevertheless, the exclusion of Oct. 7 makes Gaza war a significantly worse title than the current one, by excluding both areas of combat (thereby being worse as a descriptive title), and lacking the necessary common use. Due to the significant combat outside of Gaza, consistency with the other Gaza wars would be undesirable because of their diverging nature.
There is no consensus among RS that the primary target of the war is all Palestinian people, and as such, there can’t be a title based on that premise without deviating from the WP:PAGS. Therefore, Israel-Hamas is the title that is most consistent with the way other pages are titled, such as War against the Islamic State also being States vs. non-state actor. FortunateSons (talk) 17:38, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Due diligence wasn't done here. These are just page tags, and you haven't looked into whether they are current/old and/or complemented by other tags. For instance, The Hill also uses "Israel-Gaza war". You have identified only one tag, presumably based on a Google search, and assumed that the platforms that popped up don't tag the same war stories under multiple competing tags and titles. That is cherrypicking par excellence. It is also worth noting that page tags are not actually a very useful indicator of the language used in the actual coverage. They are in fact more unreliable still than WP:HEADLINES, which we also do not use to determine page titles. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:43, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
    Exactly RossoSPC (talk) 01:51, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I was going to add a paragraph explaining why, but everyone opposing this has said all of my opinions and more. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 07:42, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Concur in that "Israel-Hamas" no longer accurately describes the scope of the war, since Israel is fighting other groups such as Hezbollah and the Houthis. However, "Gaza War" doesn't really describe it accurately either, since the war is being fought on more fronts than just Gaza, such as the West Bank and Lebanon.
But I can't really think of a title that's both concise and fully describes the scope. Benpiano800 (talk) 17:27, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
Hezbollah and Houthis say they are fighting in order to help the Gazans. Havradim leaf a message 14:08, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose "a lot has changed since then and RS have converged to use this name"; what an incredibly slanted way to re-open this discussion. Again. For the 10th time in the past year.
RS have not "converged" on that name for the conflict, as plenty high-quality RS still use "Israel-Hamas war" or its variants:
Moreover, despite the opener's claim, nothing has really changed regarding RS usage since the last RFC in May, and the one before that in January - the same sources that are using the term "Israel-Gaza War" now (BBC, Guardian, Washington Post, Al Jazeera...) are the same sources being cited as using the term now. Consensus can change, but there are no "previously unconsidered arguments or circumstances" being raised here.
RS publications aside, "Israel Hamas war" continues to lead "Israel Gaza war" in English searche interest worldwide by a fair margin, as it has since the beginning of the conflict. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 20:24, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
Regarding the terms people are searching for, "Gaza war" is more common than "Israel-Hamas war" or "Israel-Gaza war" and its share has been growing for the past few months. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 23:25, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
Yes, which shows Gaza war to be the most searched for thing in the majority of the world, including universally across Europe and the Middle East, and prevalently across South Africa, compared to quite a bit of Southeast Asia, but otherwise largely just the US, India, a few countries in central Africa for the current term. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:59, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
The past 90 days shows the recent trend better. Gaza war is globally prevalent in that period. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:06, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
It is simpler, graphically accurate, and easier on the brain. (Indeed, I'd expect many to be searching purely on "Gaza" because that's what this war is all about. I checked, and for the sake of interest, yes, Gaza eclipses the other terms: [11]) GeoffreyA (talk) 13:19, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
  • oppose : For the 1000th time, no. Per above. LuxembourgLover (talk) 00:35, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support - Per the sources OP has given, Israel-Gaza war is very common. I've always believed that the current name is a one-sided term which serves only to mask the w:Gaza genocide by Israel against Palestinians in Gaza. It is an ideological term and ignores all realities on the ground and is only used by supporters of Israel to frame the war as something that it is not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EmilePersaud (talk • contribs) 21:32, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Support. "Gaza War", with or without dates, is my first choice; I also support Israel–Gaza War. I support moving the page away from Israel–Hamas war to one of those two other titles. If the term Israel–Hamas War is not cleanly used overwhelmingly more than other names (and it isn't, as numerous reliable sources using terms like Gaza war and Israel–Gaza war go to show), then it isn't a common name, and per WP:NCENPOV, we should use a descriptive name that does not carry POV implications. Israel–Hamas war is a POV name that characterizes the war as exclusively happening between the nation-state of Israel and the Hamas organization. As that is not a consensus interpretation in academic secondary literature, with a considerable literature holding the war is against persons in Gaza beyond the Hamas organization, it is a POV interpretation and name and should be avoided for the article name. Gaza war neutrally describes the primary geographic field of the war. That very reputable reliable sources also use the term Gaza war is a reassurance about the suitability of the term. Comments that assert Israel–Hamas War is the common name have not convinced me, sometimes for the evidence (age of cited articles or to the language used therein, irrespective of titles or tags), sometimes for inattention to Gaza war as an alternative and not just Israel–Gaza war. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 03:26, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose - On every news site I look at, the top story about the war is in the West Bank. The current title is bad, but Gaza is even less accurate. Common name is the wrong strategy for this page, we need an accurate descriptive title. FourPi (talk) 13:47, 1 September 2024 (UTC) Blocked sock. SilverLocust 💬 07:56, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    Or possibly something attributable, like the IDF operation name, it takes a side, but it's clearly attributable, so it is less misleading than a title that looks factual and neutral but isn't. FourPi (talk) 13:47, 1 September 2024 (UTC) Blocked sock. SilverLocust 💬 07:56, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    Aside from the obvious POV issues and weak recognisability of codenames, it's established bad practice to use them, per WP:CODENAME. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:21, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment At a quick glance I am not seeing consensus for the change. However, why not added "Gaza War 2023-2024" as a secondary name like how the Iraq War also has the "Second Gulf War"? 3Kingdoms (talk) 02:26, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Support: I support moving the title to "Gaza war (with or without dates)" (first preference) and if not, "Israel-Gaza war". There are several armed factions in Gaza fighting the Israeli occupation forces. Current title is biased as well as inaccurate. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 12:54, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
    Exactly, Hamas isn't the only group involved in this war, and in fact this is the common name for many conflicts. We already have similar names for the 2008 gaza war, 2014 gaza war, and the 2012 war. This is my own opinion RossoSPC (talk) 01:56, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Merge in Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip This article is a Frankenstein of «Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip» and «Spillover of the Israel–Hamas war» (which itself should be called «Spillover of the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip»).
Something that infuriates me about this article is that it treats Israel as if it was a battlefield in a state comparable to Gaza's, when that is far from the case. Life standards in Israel are pretty much unscathed; contrast that with the systemic destruction of Gazan society, and you will see why I have such strong feeling about this narrative given by the article. Sr. Knowthing ¿señor? 00:54, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Support: Gaza War (2023–present) per TheJoebro64 and Coffeeandcrumbs. मल्ल (talk) 22:38, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Support Gaza War as a first preference as "the war in Gaza" is what I most commonly hear this war described as, both from the media and from politicians, and it avoids the above bickering over whether to call it the Israel-Hamas war or the Israel-Gaza war. Very easy to argue it's the common name. I also still support the proposed title (Israel-Gaza war), as it makes more sense for both halves of the title to be polities/locations, but I suspect that proposal is less likely to get a consensus. I will be pasting this !vote in both subsections because Makeandtoss requested "Can everyone who mentioned their preferences here explicitly and in a clear way do so in the original discussion as well?"  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 20:38, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose - I am unconvinced that the current title is no longer the common name per many prior arguments. However, even were that to be the case, it would establish that there's no longer consensus for WP:COMMONNAME (it certainly has not established that the proposed title has consensus). If that is the case, "non-neutral but common names" under WP:NPOVNAME would be impossible (no accepted common name, neutral or otherwise) and thus WP:NDESC would take over: the Israeli declaration of war specifies Hamas as the target of the war - one of the few explicit declarations of war since 1945 and thus easier than most conflicts to objectively describe. The current title is accurately descriptive of that. That there are other groups involved (whose level of involvement is certainly different) does not change the fact that it is a declared war by Israel against Hamas specifically, and changing its description on the basis of whether one thinks the involvement of other parties is significant enough is ultimately a subjective judgment call, not a basis for a title. (Edit to add: this also provides a very convenient example of natural disambiguation in consideration of WP:NATDIS, in the way that iterations and variations of "Gaza war" do not.) Benjitheijneb (talk) 19:45, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
    How is the Israeli declaration of war in any way NPOV? It’s the definition of POV Kowal2701 (talk) 21:07, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
    +1 – the logic that "one side asserted a POV, so we should adopt that POV" is a prototypical NPOV violation. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:06, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
    My argument isn't underpinned by anything Israel puts out being neutral, and I certainly don't see it as neutral. (Though as a point of order: you did read WP:NPOVNAME, right? That in the absence of a neutral common name, a non-neutral common name can be used? Neutrality isn't the highest-order priority of Wikipedia titles.) The article describes a war, an official state of armed conflict, traditionally established by a formal declaration of war, and more commonly nowadays by a statement referring to "a state of war existing". As it so happens, this one is one of the rare few to have a formal declaration to define the state of war. Other conflicts which do not have official states of war, and do not have concrete statements to refer back to, are titled as conflicts, not wars, (e.g. Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present)) unless WP:COMMON overrides that (e.g. Russo-Ukrainian War which until very recently had neither declaration nor "existence of a state etc."). This is a factual statement of who the official state of war is between; should other belligerents (such as Hamas or Hezbollah) issue similar statements, then by nature the Israeli declaration no longer adequately describes the official state of war. But until that happens (if it happens), Israel and Hamas remain the only parties you can point at and confidently say there is a formal state of war between. I don't rate the Israeli declaration for supposed "neutrality", I rate it for being descriptive of a legal and political interaction between two entities. Benjitheijneb (talk) 19:56, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Benjitheijneb. The current title describes the conflict in the best way. "Gaza war" and all of it's alternates do not. Swordman97 talk to me 20:51, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Strongly Oppose per Longhornsg . Additionally, in the month since these arguments were set down, this editor observes that the same mainstream media outlets (i.e., TNYT etc) continue to employ "Israel-Hamas War". "Israel–Hamas War is the most accurate description, is the most commonly used name. " Additionally, "Gaza War" is ambiguous, not commonly in use, and does not describe the war as well. Drsruli (talk) 03:49, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Strong Support; as per the rationales listed above. Snowstormfigorion (talk) 04:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Support Gaza War (2023–present) per TheJoebro64 and WP:CONSISTENT. Avoids any POV considerations. Havradim leaf a message 14:35, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Support per above. †TyphoonAmpil† (💬 - 📝 - 🌀 - Tools) 02:18, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Support Israel-Gaza War or Gaza War (2023-present) per OP's sources. The only flaw in either of these names is that they are, if anything, too limited - Israel has been attacking the West Bank, and ramped up attacks on Lebanon and Yemen since the last time I participated in this discussion. However, either Israel-Gaza War or Gaza War (2023-present) are at least far more accurate than Israel-Hamas War, an increasingly confusing name which doesn't even cover all of the parties involved in Gaza itself. Albert Mond (talk) 10:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Support any title with the word Gaza in it (Israel-Gaza War or Gaza War (2023-present) or even Gaza war etc), per many RS presented above.VR (Please ping on reply) 13:08, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Why hasn't this been closed yet? Can someone make a request at WP:CR? InfiniteNexus (talk) 17:19, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Move to Middle East war (2023–present). Now that Israel has launched a ground invasion of Lebanon, the scope of the war is broad enough that I think it needs a more general title. The Houthis in Yemen had already been involved but now the scope of the war is broader. Chessrat (talk, contributions) 21:42, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose based on Google Trends data which suggests the current title is the WP:COMMONNAME. Awesome Aasim 17:08, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
    Here's the trends data for the last 8 months. Gaza war is almost always more frequently searched for instead of Israel-Hamas, and also has spikes when particularly gruesome atrocities are committed by Israel. It's almost as if the world doesn't think that all of Gaza is Hamas. CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 17:20, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
    Can we take a look at the full picture? [12] The only spikes I see are those related to past conflicts. Only since the beginning of this year has the title "Gaza war" actually overtook "Israel-Hamas war". Also "Gaza war" is too vague as there are many wars in Gaza, the last one being 2014 it seems. Awesome Aasim 18:14, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
    This war is the WP:PT above the other Gaza wars, having lasted ten times longer and caused at least fifteen times more deaths than all other wars in Gaza combined - so your vagueness argument is moot. I do agree with your point about the views, though, it is intriguing how new the spike for Gaza war is. 🐔 Chicdat  Bawk to me! 18:46, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
    Thank you for agreeing that Gaza War is the term that is WP:COMMON throughout 2024. Are you in support of Gaza War (2023 - Present)? CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 16:11, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
    I recommend that you reread WP:COMMONNAME Abo Yemen✉ 16:45, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
    Please don't make things up without evidence. Selfstudier (talk) 17:44, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
    Note: I moved my comment and the thread attached to it to the correct section. Awesome Aasim 18:14, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Support (but preferably Gaza War (2023–present)), same arguments I made in previous discussions here and here, plus consistency with all previous Gaza war articles, and recognizability (see Google Trends argument above). DFlhb (talk) 02:53, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Per WP:COMMONNAME and per the arguments and evidence by Longhornsg. Perhaps "Gaza War (2023–present)" would be a better alternative?? IJA (talk) 18:46, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose, the lead sentence states: An armed conflict between Israel and Hamas-led Palestinian militant groups... so I think the current article title is fine. Some1 (talk) 22:28, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I remember the 2006 Gaza–Israel conflict well; media sources at the time often simply used shorthand terms like "Gaza war" or "Gaza conflict" the same way they use them today. Declaring "Israel-Gaza War" to be the correct common name now because these terms are used currently to describe the current conflict ignores the fact they were also used in the past to describe past conflicts. It's an exceptionalist fallacy being peddled by contributors with extraordinarily short memories, or maybe just too young to remember the 2006 war. To them, this is the Gaza war because it's the only one receiving coverage now, and that is problematic from an encyclopedic timeline perspective. --Katangais (talk) 20:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Common ground

Do supporters of the Israel-Gaza war support the Gaza war (with or without dates); and vice versa? Also do opposers of the Israel-Gaza war title support Gaza war (with or without dates)? I think answering these two questions will help reach better consensus for one of the three proposed options. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

From skimming through the Oppose !votes, most of the arguments are based on the fact that the war is against Hamas and not a war against Gaza. Which while I do think is a misinterpretation of most titles for wars, given Hamas governs Gaza; Longhornsg raises a very valid point, somewhat unintentionally here. Both "Israel–Hamas war" and "Israel–Gaza war" are arguably POV-framing titles, an argument being reiterated as an oppose vote ironically. The former assumes a war against Hamas, the latter assumes a war against Gaza, and both are POVs. Without getting into semantics of where Gaza starts and Hamas ends, there is seemingly no moving forward between that current stale mate.
The only hope is that the current Oppose !votes are more accepting over a title that describes a war in Gaza, as opposed to against Gaza. The fact that arguments against moving to a POV title in order to remain at a POV title would ideally be acknowledged by all here at a minimum. Likewise with supporting one POV title over another. We are clearly never going to find common ground in this matter otherwise.
The only realistic issue with the title "Gaza War" would be based on October 7 context, which could simply be moved to part of the Background section, given everything after this has been based in Gaza, not elsewhere. I'm also excluding "Other confrontations" from this, as per description of the section itself, these confrontations are disconnected (geographically at least) from the war in the Gaza strip, and only included in the article for context. Apologies for the long-winded reply, but based on the opening question, I think some further analysis was very much due here.
CNC (talk) 23:14, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
@CommunityNotesContributor: "The former assumes a war against Hamas, the latter assumes a war against Gaza, and both are POVs." The war is actually not against Hamas, but against Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and etc; all of which are based in Gaza. So I do not think there is a POV here. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:11, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
I actually agree with this and argued it before, hence my point prior to this "I do think is a misinterpretation of most titles for wars", but the CN counter-argument is that it doesn't matter as Hamas is considered the primary target. There are two POV-based CNs by default, as they are literally opposing viewpoints – whether intentional or not, or whether one is more accurate than the other or not – which is why I believe Gaza war is the only correct NPOV title here. You only need to skim through the RM to see that this is the issue imo: supporters believe the proposed title is the accurate CN, Opposers believe the current title is the accurate CN. CNC (talk) 11:49, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
Mast303 (talk) 18:03, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
I think you !voted twice? Selfstudier (talk) 18:21, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
This one is under the Talk:Israel–Hamas_war#Common ground subsection where folks supporting the move in the main section clarify if they also support a move to Gaza war. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 18:26, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
Silly me, apologies. Selfstudier (talk) 18:34, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
Engine Gaza+war Israel+Hamas+war
Google scholar 590 257
JSTOR 26 24
PubMed 57 17
Taylor & Francis 60 24
ScienceDirect 15 9

VR (Please ping on reply) 06:36, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

There's more than one Gaza war, so a google search might be referring to the one from 2005. It's also therefore less WP:PRECISE Andre🚐 23:22, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
There's also more than one war between Israel and Hamas, however, this war overshadows all previous ones.VR (Please ping on reply) 01:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
We aren't less precise if we use the year in brackets as has been suggested by numerous editors. Do share if there's a shortcoming with that approach as well and we can try and workshop a solution. CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 04:25, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

A quick tally of opinions here shows a 34-7-1 vote in favor of changing the name of the article to "Gaza War" (with or without dates). While of course we must take into mind WP:DEMOCRACY, this seems to be reflect a quite strong consensus (or at the very least, supermajority approval) for this name change; one much stronger than "Israel-Gaza War". The specific points made against this change appear to be:

  1. That "Gaza War" does not reflect the true situation on the ground, and that since "Hamas started the war", it should be included in the title. I'll refrain from adding my own opinion other than to say that our job as Wikipedia editors is not to editorialize or imprint our own opinions onto sensitive matters like this other than to follow the media consensus as best we can.
  2. That "Israel-Hamas War" is still the COMMONNAME and is more commonly used in the press than "Gaza War". This point is stronger in my opinion. If there is real reason to suggest that "Israel-Hamas War" is notably more commonly used than "Gaza War" then I think this would be a good reason to not move. Otherwise - if "Gaza War" is used as commonly or more commonly than "Israel-Hamas War" - then the case for moving seems pretty airtight.

What are yall's thoughts? AwesomeSaucer9 (talk) 23:35, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

@AwesomeSaucer9: I think "Gaza War" is more common, see table above.VR (Please ping on reply) 06:37, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
There are lots of views I think should be considered too in the above discussion. In general at this point it seems that there is no consensus to move Galamore (talk) 10:35, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
How did you count !votes? There are certainly more Oppose votes since August 13. Alaexis¿question? 20:32, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
@AwesomeSaucer9 pinging you in case you no longer monitor this thread. Alaexis¿question? 20:33, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for the ping! A recount on my end shows a 35-8-2 tally.
Given the table that @Vice regent: mentions, the true consensus to move to "Gaza War" remains. AwesomeSaucer9 (talk) 19:30, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Closure

Please could someone close this particular requested move, as it has been running for two months now. Everyone has had their two cents by now.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 15:10, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

A request has already been submitted at WP:CR on September 30, two weeks ago. Hope someone will take this on soon. मल्ल (talk) 19:20, 14 October 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Re-evaluation of RM

Hi @Paine Ellsworth, can you re-evaluate this close please? I don't see a response to the WP:COMMONNAME argument which is firmly in favour of Israel-Gaza War despite the many data wrangling attempts to make it seem otherwise.

The vote count is 54 in support and 37 against per my count. Most of the 37 seem to be arguing that the search term frequency data somehow suggests that Israel-Hamas is more common than Israel-Gaza, which is not true as pointed out by several rebuttals to these comments. Similar arguments have been made suggesting WP:RS don't use "Israel-Gaza" whereas the RM, as well as follow-up comments, clearly linked to numerous cases where this is not true. WP:!VOTE suggests that an incorrect argument is as good as none. CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 13:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Take this to closer's talk page (you need to do that if you intend to ask for close review). Selfstudier (talk) 13:36, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
Ah, thank you! Posted to the closer's talk page. CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 14:38, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
You might want to read WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. You can either go to the closer's talk page, or WP:MR. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 14:24, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
Thank you! CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 14:39, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

RM closure

Finally that rm had been closed. Yall up for a new one? or should we do another 3 month moratorium? Abo Yemen✉ 10:22, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Unless it can be shown that a majority of RS are now referring to it as something other than the current title, best just wait per comments in the close. Selfstudier (talk) 10:41, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
Paine Ellsworth suggested waiting for a few months and this is correct. It is not good practice to reopen discussions as soon as they have closed.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 10:43, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
If we aren't going to place a moratorium then i bet you a wikilove cookie that someone is going to open a new rm before the end of this month (or year) Abo Yemen✉ 10:50, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
Thank you very much, editor IanMacM, for the notification! Just to be clear, on Wikipedia moratoriums are pretty much voluntary ongoing suspension activities. Actual waiting times are a matter of common sense. Essential to success is the strengthening of arguments and, if possible, the study and research that results in the discovery of new and stronger args. This takes time, and the longer the patience and work ethic, the better is the chance of success. Usually. Of course, I've been privileged to see both short- and long-term approaches many times, and yes I have seen quick reopenings work sometimes. However that's usually the result of meticulously overcoming the previous objections with a much stronger rationale than before. More than twice I've seen RM reopenings that happen too soon and just piss editors off, which results in massive opposition. Being patient is like listening to music – it can have a soothing effect!>) P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 12:28, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
Yes I'm up for a new one - what exactly counts as a "firm" consensus in favor of moving? That is an unclear definition open to interpretation, while in reality the arguments in favor of not moving to "Gaza War" were not upheld. To be clear, if there are more arguments to be made in favor of keeping the current name that have not already been discussed, it is more fair to say that no consensus has been reached - but wouldn't this strengthen the case for further discussion. In my opinion, the RM was prematurely closed. AwesomeSaucer9 (talk) 18:07, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
In my opinion, the RM was prematurely closed The RM was open for over 2 months and has been at the bottom of the RM backlog for a while now. If that isn’t long enough to develop a consensus to move, there is no consensus to move. I say wait at least the same amount of time that this discussion was open before starting the next one. cyberdog958Talk 00:57, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
The idea isn't that there was no consensus to move, the idea is that there was in fact a consensus to move and that whoever closed the RM did not take it into account and is needlessly delaying the move to "Gaza War" that seems to be overwhelmingly favored by Wikipedians on this page. AwesomeSaucer9 (talk) 02:11, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
I agree, but think it is best to wait. At any rate, since the main chord of that discussion was struck, circumstances have certainly changed, with the incursion into Lebanon, talk of resettling Gaza, etc., so the grounds for "Israel-Hamas" grow weaker and weaker. GeoffreyA (talk) 07:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
It's more of a Levant war than a Gaza war now. Too bad no sources use that name Abo Yemen✉ 08:05, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Exactly. GeoffreyA (talk) 08:57, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
But we do have an article on Middle Eastern crisis (2023–present) now. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 13:49, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
That's more what I would be looking at as a sensible way of dealing with what's actually going on, which is obviously not just a Israel Hamas thing. Selfstudier (talk) 14:55, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Yariv Levin calls for 20 year prison sentences for Israeli citizens that support sanctions

Something of possible interest to include in this and a few other related articles:

After Amos Schocken, the publisher of the Haaretz newspaper, called for international sanctions against Israel to put pressure for acceptance of a two-state solution and an end to ethnic cleansing, Israel's justice minister Yariv Levin demanded a new law imposing up to 20 years prison sentences for any Israelis who call for sanctions.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=tQmE0o4C9dE

https://www.jns.org/israeli-justice-minister-urges-jail-time-for-boycott-calls-by-citizens/

https://skwawkbox.org/2024/11/02/israeli-justice-minister-calls-for-law-for-20yr-prison-sentences-for-israelis-who-call-for-sanctions/

David A (talk) 18:31, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Add America to Israeli Allies

It was one thing when America was sending military and economic aid to Israel. But very recently as much as 100 American soldiers have been deployed in Israel alongside a THAAD missile system meant to plug up the low-running supplies of anti-air missiles for Iron Dome.

If America is placing boots on the ground, I think that is good enough reason to add America under an Allies category, in much the same way Iran is now.

Reliable sources have also reported on the significance of this:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/10/15/israel-iran-war-hezbollah-lebanon-latest-news1

"Around 100 American military personnel in total will be sent to operate the system - the first time US troops have been deployed in combat in Israel during the current crisis."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13961393/israel-iron-dome-hezbollah-iran-missile-strike-tehran-air-defence.html

"It comes as the White House declared the US military had dispatched a state-of-the-art Terminal High-Altitude Area Defence (THAAD) anti-missile system to Israel along with some 100 troops. [...] 'It projects the message to Iran that (Israel's expected retaliation for a recent missile strike) is likely to be significant yet restrained... it also suggests that a continued tit-for-tat will only be further devastating to Iran, with the US willing to back its allies with boots-on-the-ground deployment.'"

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/13/us/politics/us-missile-defense-iran-israel.html

"It is the first deployment of U.S. forces to Israel since the Hamas-led attacks there on Oct. 7, 2023."

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/13/politics/israel-iran-antimissile-system-us-troops/index.html

"But the deployment of additional US troops to Israel is notable amid the heightened tensions between Israel and Iran, and as the region braces for a potential Israeli attack on Iran that could continue to escalate hostilities. Approximately 100 US troops are deploying to Israel to operate the THAAD battery, according to a US defense official. It is rare for US troops to deploy inside Israel, but this is a typical number of troops to operate the anti-missile defense system."

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-sending-100-troops-and-missile-defence-system-israel

"The presence of these US troops also possibly places them in the direct line of fire if another Iranian strike on Israel similar to the strike earlier this month were to happen." Genabab (talk) 09:54, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I think that your suggestion here seems reasonable. David A (talk) 10:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Only if US troops directly engage with Hamas. From what I understand from the sources, the deployment of US troops is in response to a possible Iranian strike, not Hamas, which would make this part of the broader 2024 Iran–Israel conflict. - ZLEA T\C 09:37, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
Maybe. But the Iran-Israel conflict in 2024 is part of the Israel-hamas war in turn.
If we applied this principle universally, Iran would have to be removed from the infoboks as well Genabab (talk) 10:10, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
I feel the difference here is that Iran's attack on Israel is in support of Hamas, while those that helped Israel against Iranian strikes were doing it against Iran specifically, not Hamas. If you really wanted to list any country which helped Israel against Iranian strikes you'd have to list Jordan as well (as per the list in the article on the 2024 Iran–Israel conflict), when that clearly is not the case. VoicefulBread66 (talk) 06:17, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
Please note that there is another discussion happening here with more details. - Ïvana (talk) 13:26, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
Yes! I agree Hu741f4 (talk) 19:50, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
Iran has fired off direct attacks on Israel twice now, by their own words as retribution for the ongoing war effort in Gaza and against Hezbollah.
Call me when the U.S. acts in a similarly belligerent capacity, rather than staging 100 troops to man a defensive system. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 19:54, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

We shouldn't be splitting discussions, like what's happened over at the template page for the infobox. That template page exists solely to serve this article - if we're going to discuss the content within, it should be at this article page. Moreover, a discussion on this page should get much more attention and participation (801 watchers, 999,117 pageviews) than the template page (42 watchers, 2,843 pageviews ). PhotogenicScientist (talk) 14:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

We do not add supporters, and you are only a combatant if you are engaged in military operations, so no. Slatersteven (talk) 18:02, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
I advertised this discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history#Should_the_U.S._be_considered_a_combatant_in_the_Israel-Hamas_war,_in_the_infobox?, where more opinions on the matter have been offered. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 21:10, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

There's now an open RFC, where people who have previously participated in discussion can now come to restate their opinions. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 17:06, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Templates in the article lead

Why is there a Iran–Israel proxy conflict template, but not Israeli–Palestinian conflict template?? Bogazicili (talk) 18:19, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

i'm not a template guy is my caviate, but i would recommend if you think that there should be a 'Israeli-Palestinian conflict template' You should make one? 'D.I.Y', 'Be Bold', etc. :) SP00KYtalk 13:58, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
Template:Israeli–Palestinian conflict Selfstudier (talk) 15:03, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Why are links to articles in the lede being removed? I have noticed two already being removed in the past week: the one linking to domicide and the other linking to Israel's destruction of Gaza's health care system. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:15, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Ok I just noticed that the Israeli destruction of the Gaza Strip healthcare system article was deleted, apparently on the grounds of it having been created by a banned user. @ThadeusOfNazereth: How can I check for myself if the article had indeed not been "substantially edited by others" as per WP:G5? Makeandtoss (talk) 10:19, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
I do not think non-admins can view the history of deleted articles. I can tell you that the banned user in question, wrote the entirety of the article's content. The other edits on the article by human users were either phrasing changes or reference fixes that I did not feel amounted to "substantial" edits as they did not actually modify or add content. You are welcome to ping another admin if you'd like a second opinion ThadeusOfNazereth(he/him)Talk to Me! 12:38, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
@ThadeusOfNazereth: Is it a possibility to put an article in this situation for some sort of review instead of nominating it for deletion? Makeandtoss (talk) 13:15, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
To be clear, I did not nominate the article for deletion - That was a different user, I only processed the request per WP:BANREVERT. You can request undeletion at WP:Requests for undeletion or ask Selfstudier for a copy of the article text once he gets it. ThadeusOfNazereth(he/him)Talk to Me! 14:17, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
I know, I did not mean to imply that. Just a question I have because I genuinely do not know the answer. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:27, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
I have asked for a copy of the deleted material, if appropriate, the article can be recreated, meanwhile I replaced the now redlink with another related link. Selfstudier (talk) 12:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
@Makeandtoss See MOS:DUPLINK. If you ctrl+F and search for domicide, you will find this word already in the article and wiki linked. As for the lede, if you check the source that was used for the part about destruction of houses, it didn’t see the word “domicide” at all (although I may be mistaken, you can double check). So I removed the domicide wikilink per mos:DUPLINK as well as it being possible WP:OR. It is still linked in the article per MOS:LINKCLARITY. Also in terms of style, see MOS:LEADLINK, MOS:OVERLINK, and MOS:SEAOFBLUE. Wafflefrites (talk) 14:24, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for explaining. But the body and lede are separate parts of an article and can’t be considered to have duplicate links. Refs in the lede are optional, so it doesn’t matter if it doesn’t support domicide there if that is supported in the body. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:29, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
@Makeandtoss You are free to restore the link. I personally think taken overall, the manual of style and OR policy do not support its inclusion, but you or someone else can restore it if you think having the link is more important than the style guidelines. Wafflefrites (talk) 20:36, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry in the latest RM

Users: UnspokenPassion, FourPi, and Sakakami have been blocked as sockpuppets, all of whom had opposed the last move request. I think this should be taken in consideration, particularly as myself and other editors have asked for a rereview of the colossal task that the closer had appreciatedly undertaken to determine the overall consensus of that lengthy discussion. Pinging the closer of the move @Paine Ellsworth:. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:45, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

To editor Makeandtoss: users who pull this SP stunt don't realize that closers are bound to the fact that decisions on Wikipedia with few exceptions are WP:NOTAVOTE. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 20:23, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
It is indeed not a vote. But still consensus is determined by how much weight editors have placed to each argument, and now we have three minus that number, which is significant. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:26, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
So start a new RM if you want. Andre🚐 20:29, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
That's exactly right, editors Makeandtoss and Andrevan. It's weight of the args that prevails, and while each of those SPs have a different editor (which makes no difference at all), their args were either minor non-arguments or just repeats of good arguments already made by other editors. That means that their participation means little to nothing in the overall outcome, so I still recommend waiting the customary few months to start a fresh move request. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 23:04, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
Sounds good, thanks! Andre🚐 23:07, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
The sockpuppets were an addition to the existing issue with the closing, so I have requested a move review: [14]. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
  • The MR closed, but some endorsers seemed to express support for starting a new RM specifically for Gaza war. Before we start that (please don't start just yet!), I think we should carefully collect sources and once we start it we should ping everyone who took part in the last discussion. Feel free to add them here, Makeandtoss.VR (Please ping on reply) 15:38, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Edit request from WP:Requests for page protection/Edit

Hello,

In this article, the following section is problematic.

"On 9 or 10 October, Hamas offered to release all civilian hostages held in Gaza if Israel would call off its planned invasion of the Gaza Strip, but the Israeli government rejected the offer.[242]"

It needs to be taken out completely.

The original article is based on an interview in Times of Israel newspaper. In the interview, the interviewee mentions this as a side comment:

“We later found out that Hamas had offered on October 9 or 10 to release all the civilian hostages in exchange for the IDF not entering the Strip, but the government rejected the offer.”

There is no mention of how they found out, and this is pretty much the only "evidence" given in support of any offer from Hamas to release all civilian hostages. It is less than hearsay.

Thank you for listening.

Ioana IoanaBlandiana (talk) 16:49, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

18 Nov 2024

Borgenland, "undue and possible POV pushing" Why? MOS:LEADLANG إيان (talk) 12:46, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Is it sourced and provides a balanced understanding of the war for the general public and not just speakers of just one belligerent state? And does the word armed conflict directly translate into such poetic euphemisms such as Iron Swords in Hebrew? If not, then there are grounds to suspect as such. Borgenland (talk) 12:48, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
I don't see the need for the Hebrew name for the war here in the lead. It doesn't even link anywhere, or provide any additional relevant information.
And per WP:LEADLANG, "If the subject of the article is closely associated with a non-English language, a single equivalent name in another language may be included in the lead sentence." Considering this article is about a war between two parties who speak different languages, rather than try to determine which is the "more common language" to identify in the lead, I'd just as soon not use either. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 17:22, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
The opening sentence is all right as it is. One-sided poetic descriptions, claiming ownership of the conflict and recasting it in a different light, are best left out. GeoffreyA (talk) 19:56, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
I think i am missing the context here, but i think the lead should possibly say in brackets 'Operation Swords of Iron' and 'Operation Al-Aqsa Flood/Storm' potentially in the leade as it is usual style guidelines as far as i've seen, to put other and popularly used names in parentheses next to their main name as i understand, and it seems the norm generally for all the other IDF wars/'mowing of the lawns' in my lifetime, i just checked at least. SP00KYtalk 20:49, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
I think the main problem one would have for those is that Flood is generally used to refer to 7 October while the swords thing is the response to that, which in my opinion refers to stages of the war and not the war in general. Borgenland (talk) 07:58, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
Yea, I think it's a good point. The current conflict is qualitatively different from Cast Lead or Pilar of Defence and so on in it's length and phases. SP00KYtalk 00:21, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

How can you "cause" an "impending famine"?

The lead says: "Israel's tightened blockade cut off basic necessities and attacks on infrastructure have destroyed Gaza's healthcare system and caused an impending famine as of February 2024." (emphasis added)

The phrase "caused an impending famine" doesn't make sense. If there is risk of an impending famine, then it hasn't been caused yet. What reliable sources support this wording? It seems like a clear violation of WP:NPOV as written. Furthermore, this sentence says "as of February 2024". It's now November and the UN still hasn't declared famine; reliable sources discuss the risk of famine. As such, the lead should be rewritten to say "created increased risk of famine" or "caused food insecurity" or similar. Stonkaments (talk) 16:44, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Updated per new sources. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:28, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Talk:Israel–Hamas_war/Archive_47&oldid=1261957850"