Wikipedia:Move review
Formal review processes |
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Move review is a process to formally discuss and evaluate a contested close of Wikipedia page move discussions, including requested moves (RM), categories for discussion discussions (CfD), and redirects for discussion discussions (RfD), to determine if the close was reasonable, or whether it was inconsistent with the spirit and intent of Wikipedia common practice, policies, or guidelines.
Prior to submitting a review of a page move's close, please attempt to resolve any issues on the closer's talk page. See step one below.
While the page move close is under review, any involved editor is free to revert any undiscussed moves of a nominated page without those actions being considered a violation of Wikipedia:No wheel warring.
What this process is not[edit]
This review process should be focused on the move discussion and the subsequent results of the move discussion, not on the person who closed the discussion. If you have ongoing concerns about a closer, please consult with the closer or post at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Move review requests which cast aspersions or otherwise attack other editors may be speedily closed.
Do not request a move review if someone has boldly moved a page and you disagree. Instead, attempt to discuss it with the editor, and if the matter continues to be unresolved, start a formal WP:RM discussion on the article's talk page.
Do not request a move review simply because you disagree with the outcome of a page move discussion. While the comments in the move discussion may be discussed in order to assess the rough consensus of a close, this is not a forum to re-argue a closed discussion.
Disagreements with Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions (WP:RMCI), WP:Article titles, the Manual of Style, a naming convention or the community norm of consensus should be raised at the appropriate corresponding talk page.
CfDs[1] and RfDs can only be reviewed here if the relevant discussion was limited in scope to renaming; CfDs or RfDs[2] involving deletion should be reviewed at Wikipedia:Deletion review.
Instructions[edit]
Initiating move reviews[edit]
Editors desiring to initiate a move review should follow the steps listed below. In the reason parameter, editors should limit their requests to one or both of the following reasons:
- [Closer] did not follow the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI because [explain rationale here] in closing this requested move discussion.
- [Closer] was unaware of significant additional information not discussed in the page move discussion: [identify information here] and the discussion should be reopened and relisted.
Editors initiating a move review discussion should be familiar with the closing instructions provided in WP:RMCI.
Steps to list a new review request[edit]
1. |
Before requesting a move review: please attempt to discuss the matter with the closer of the page move discussion on the closer's talk page. Move review is a process that takes several days, sometimes weeks, to close. On the closer's talk page, you can probably resolve the matter much more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full, formal move review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision. If things don't work out, and you decide to request a review of the closure, please note in the review that you did first try discussing the matter with the closer. To clarify: You absolutely MUST attempt to discuss the matter with the closer FIRST, and give them a few days to respond. |
2. |
Follow this link to this month's log and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in page with the name of the contested move page, rm_page with the name of the move discussion page if needed, rm_section if needed, closer and closer_section with the post-move discussion information, and reason with the reason why the page move should be reviewed. For example: Copy this template skeleton for most pages: {{subst:move review list |page= |rm_page= <!--Not needed if the move discussion is on the talk page of the page--> |rm_section= <!--Name of the section with the move request--> |closer= <!--User name of editor who closed the move request--> |closer_section= <!--Name of the section of closer's talk page where discussion took place--> |reason= }} ~~~~ If either the
are correctly filled in, the result will include a "Discussion with closer" link to that discussion. If the |
3. |
If you have not done so already, inform the closer of the Move review discussion by adding the following on their user talk page:
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4. |
Leave notice of the move review in the same section as, but outside of and above the closed original move discussion. Use the following template: |
5. |
If the current month discussions are not already included in the discussion section below. Add the new log page to the top of the active discussions section.
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6. |
The discussion with closer and notices required above are sufficient notification; you are not required to individually notify participants in the prior move discussion of the move review. However, if you individually notify any of them, you must individually notify all of them by posting a message about the move review on each participant's respective user talk page. |
Commenting in a move review[edit]
In general, commenters should prefix their comments with either Endorse or Overturn (optionally stating an alternative close) followed by their reasoning. Generally, the rationale should be an analysis of whether the closer properly followed Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions, whether it was within closer's discretion and reasonably interpreted consensus in the discussion, while keeping in mind the spirit of Wikipedia policy, precedent and project goal. Commenters should be familiar with WP:RMCI, which sets forth community norms for closers of page move discussions.
If the close is considered premature because of on-going discussion or if significant relevant information was not considered during the discussion, commenters should suggest Relist followed by their rationale.
Commenters should identify whether or not they were involved or uninvolved in the RM discussion under review.
The closer of the page move under discussion should feel free to provide additional rationale as to why they closed the RM in the manner they did and why they believe the close followed the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI.
Remember that move review is not an opportunity to rehash, expand upon or first offer your opinion on the proper title of the page in question – move review is not a do-over of the WP:RM discussion but is an opportunity to correct errors in the closing process (in the absence of significant new information). Thus, the action specified should be the editor's analysis of whether the close of the discussion was reasonable or unreasonable based on the debate and applicable policy and guidelines. Providing evidence such as page views, ghits, ngrams, challenging sourcing and naming conventions, etc. to defend a specific title choice is not within the purview of a move review. Evidence should be limited to demonstrating that the RM closer did or did not follow the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI in closing the page move discussion.
Closing reviews[edit]
A nominated page should remain on move review for at least seven days. After seven days, an uninvolved editor will determine whether a consensus exists to either endorse the close or overturn the close. If that consensus is to Overturn Close, the MRV closer should take the appropriate actions to revert any title changes resulting from the RM close. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at Wikipedia:Requested moves, Wikipedia:Categories for discussion, or Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion. If the consensus is to Endorse Close, no further action is required on the article title. If the MRV closer finds that there is no consensus in the move review, then in most cases this has the same effect as Endorse Close and no action is required on the article title. However, in some cases, it may be more appropriate to treat a finding of "no consensus" as equivalent to a "relist"; MRV closers may use their discretion to determine which outcome is more appropriate.
Use {{subst:move review top}} and {{subst:move review bottom}} to close such discussions.
Also, add a result to the {{move review talk}}
template on the talk page where the original discussion took place, e.g. {{move review talk|date=April 24 2015|result=Closure endorsed}}
.
Typical move review decision options[edit]
The following set of options represent the typical results of a move review decision, although complex page move discussions involving multiple title changes may require a combination of these options based on the specific details of the RM and MRV discussions.
MRV closer's decision | RM closer's decision | Move review closed as | Status of RM after MRV close |
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1. Endorse | Moved / Not moved | No action required | Closed |
2. Overturn | Not moved | Option 1: (If RM consensus is unclear or significantly divided) Reopen and relist RM | Open |
Option 2: (If consensus to move to a new title is clear) Move title to new title and close RM | Closed | ||
Moved | Move title back to pre-RM title, and reopen and relist RM if appropriate | Open | |
3. Relist | Moved / Not moved | Reopen and relist RM and if moved, move title back to pre-RM title | Open |
Notes[edit]
- ^ Those that involve renames (Template:Cfr), for all other types of CFDs use deletion review.
- ^ Generally for those that don't involve any proposed or suggested deletion, where only the redirect's target was being discussed or if the redirect should be a disambiguation page, for other (even those that were retargeted where deletion was proposed or considered) use deletion review.
Active discussions[edit]
2024 June[edit]
Welsh Language Society[edit]
This move request was closed as "no consensus" where the lack of consensus is based on a faulty reading of WP:UE.
According to BilledMammal who closed as no consensus:
"Reviewing it again, I stand by my previous close. Editors in opposition argued that even sources that do use the Welsh name commonly translate it into English, and I found no basis in policy to give those !votes less weight. "
This statement is incorrect as roughly half of the reliable sources used "Cymdeithas yr Iaith" without providing any translation and none used "Welsh Language Society" except as a translation the first time "Cymdeithas yr Iaith" was presented.
WP:UE does not apply here as the WP:COMMONNAME used in reliable English language sources (and in most pages that link to this one) is Cymdeithas yr Iaith.Morwennol (talk) 10:48, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn (uninvolved). Reading the discussion, it appears that oppose voters have a mistaken belief that WP:UE is a blanket ban on all foreign language titles. Sionk, the one opposer who appears to engage with the evidence laid out in any way, claims that an article that uses the Welsh name in its headline, and adds the translated name once, is evidence that the Welsh name is not in common usage. Mach61 11:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn (involved). WP:ENGLISHTITLE states "If a word or phrase (originally taken from some other language) is commonly used by English-language sources, it can be considered to be an English-language word or phrase (example: coup d'état)." Nothing in there suggests we should not use a foreign term as a title if some sources provide a translation for that term along with the term itself. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 16:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Additional comment: I've notified BilledMammal (the closer) about this request and put the required notice on the article's talk page. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 19:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse (uninvolved) Both WP:COMMONNAME and WP:ENGLISHTITLE apply here as page moves are often balancing acts. While those supporting the move were slightly more numerous in number, those opposing were not incorrect in terms of their policy analysis, and their concerns could not be discounted, especially the concern, confirmed by those supporting, that the English name is listed next to the Welsh name in these articles. I would have closed this as a no consensus and would have moved only with a couple additional support !votes. SportingFlyer T·C 17:55, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Just to clarify: there are numerous RSs referenced in the move request which use Cymdeithas yr Iaith without providing any English translation. There are several which use Cymdeithas yr Iaith alongside alongside an English translation the first time the name is used. There are none which use Welsh Language Society on its own. Morwennol (talk) 18:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- I was only reviewing the close of the discussion and not the content, but you've got me curious about whether the name was ever used on its own: I was able to find lots of instances, including [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] SportingFlyer T·C 23:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Well, that’s new evidence that heavily supports the Oppose position. Thank you for taking the time to find that. —В²C ☎ 00:11, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- To be honest, I really have no preference for the outcome here. My reading of the discussion was simply that based on my reading of the discussion, both those supporting and those opposing made valid arguments, and consensus was not such that a move was clear. I don't think it needs to be re-opened - these "English or native language" discussions can be really difficult! SportingFlyer T·C 05:16, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for digging those out. I think it's mentioned in this MR or the previous one that Welsh Language Society was commonly used in the past to refer to the organisation, and is more commonly used to refer to the organisation in a historical context. Whereas Cymdeithas yr Iaith is strongly preferred for the contemporary organisation.
- When I was looking for stuff using WLS I applied a self-imposed criteria:
- - Less than a decade old
- - UK based rather than internationakl]
- - Referring to the contemporary organisation rather than the org in a historical context
- I think four of the ten sources meet that criteria - one is a letter, one is an English local paper and the other two are from the BBC but are 8 and 9 years old respectively, so at the upper range of my search. I'm not sure they tip the scales (though they are interesting data that ought to be included). Morwennol (talk) 06:26, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- It seems to me as if - well, if this closes as no consensus or endorse, then the page is likely to be requested to be moved again in the future. And it seems to me that the problem for those like yourself supporting the move is that the org is notable enough to be continually referenced in media, but not so notable that everyone in a target English language audience would recognise the name, because the vast majority of articles include "the Welsh Language Society" pretty much next to the Welsh language name as a proper noun. From a closer's perspective, if I closed this, that would make it difficult to down-weight those opposing the change. Urdd Gobaith Cymru, for instance, isn't described with a proper noun next to its name in the media. If there has been a shift towards just the Welsh name, and if there's another move request, you may have a better chance of being successful if you can show how the shift is occurring. SportingFlyer T·C 03:49, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- "...but not so notable that everyone in a target English language audience would recognise the name, ..." Why is that a problem? To meet the recognizability criteria there is no need to be "so notable that everyone in a target English language audience would recognise the name". The threshold is: "someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize." --В²C ☎ 04:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Because I was not talking about the Wikipedia rules there, but rather about how the articles I've reviewed on this topic have been generally written. SportingFlyer T·C 05:34, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- "...but not so notable that everyone in a target English language audience would recognise the name, ..." Why is that a problem? To meet the recognizability criteria there is no need to be "so notable that everyone in a target English language audience would recognise the name". The threshold is: "someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize." --В²C ☎ 04:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- It seems to me as if - well, if this closes as no consensus or endorse, then the page is likely to be requested to be moved again in the future. And it seems to me that the problem for those like yourself supporting the move is that the org is notable enough to be continually referenced in media, but not so notable that everyone in a target English language audience would recognise the name, because the vast majority of articles include "the Welsh Language Society" pretty much next to the Welsh language name as a proper noun. From a closer's perspective, if I closed this, that would make it difficult to down-weight those opposing the change. Urdd Gobaith Cymru, for instance, isn't described with a proper noun next to its name in the media. If there has been a shift towards just the Welsh name, and if there's another move request, you may have a better chance of being successful if you can show how the shift is occurring. SportingFlyer T·C 03:49, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
- Well, that’s new evidence that heavily supports the Oppose position. Thank you for taking the time to find that. —В²C ☎ 00:11, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- I was only reviewing the close of the discussion and not the content, but you've got me curious about whether the name was ever used on its own: I was able to find lots of instances, including [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] SportingFlyer T·C 23:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Just to clarify: there are numerous RSs referenced in the move request which use Cymdeithas yr Iaith without providing any English translation. There are several which use Cymdeithas yr Iaith alongside alongside an English translation the first time the name is used. There are none which use Welsh Language Society on its own. Morwennol (talk) 18:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Overturn to moved (uninvolved). Not only were opposers outnumbered, but none really addressed the nom’s main point: the Welsh name is the COMMONNAME based on usage in reliable English sources, You know, like the BBC. Closer apparently gave too much weight to opposer’s stating the undisputed fact that many translate the name. But that’s so those seeing the name for the first time understand what it means; that doesn’t make it the subject’s name. Though not explicitly mentioned in the RM, underlying the Support argument, and countering closer’s finding, is the Recognizability WP:CRITERIA standard: the name must be recognizable to someone familiar with the subject area. Until a short time ago I was not familiar with this subject area. But now that I am familiar, I recognize Cymdeithas yr Iaith as the name of this organization. There is no requirement to make any title recognizable to anyone unfamiliar with the topic, but that seems to be the goal the opposers (and closer) are trying to achieve. —В²C ☎ 19:14, 11 June 2024 (UTC)- Relist based on significant new information presented by SportingFlyer above showing that Welsh Language Society is commonly used solely, not merely as a translation of the Welsh name, in RS to refer to this organization. Those ten references clearly establish COMMONNAME per UE. It’s unfortunate that this was not raised in the original RM to counter the nom’s argument, but here we are. The emphasis on the English used only as a translation of the Welsh in that discussion, even by Opposers, was very misleading. The RM needs to be reopened, the new information presented, and all previous participants notified. —-В²C ☎ 00:11, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn to moved IMO the arguments in favour of the move were better grounded in policy and one of the oppose !votes was a misunderstanding of policy (WP:UE) and should have been disregarded. Number 57 21:58, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn (involved): as pointed out in the previous move discussions and here, WP:UE is not a blanket prohibition on non-English titles if their use is well-established. I think that bar was met, and I don't think the use of courtesy translations lowers them below the bar (for comparison, mention of the Taoiseach in English-language sources will often carry a courtesy translation of "Irish prime minister", but will thereon continue with "Taoiseach"; same applies for Cymdeithas). Sceptre (talk) 18:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. < uninvolved > This type of closure, no consensus, always takes a bit of boldness. There is no firm basis for overturning this closure. Based upon good arguments all around, there is no solid ground for any other than the no-consensus outcome. Relisted once already with plenty of participation and time to reach consensus if that had been possible, there is also no viable reason to reopen and relist. This was definitely a correct outcome, which I, too, would have used to conclude this RM. Good gutsy close! P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 18:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse (uninvolved). Per SportingFlyer above, and per the closer's assessment when asked about this - "editors in opposition argued that even sources that do use the Welsh name commonly translate it into English, and I found no basis in policy to give those !votes less weight. Further, given the recent consensus not to move the article, there is a slightly higher bar to be met to produce a different consensus - that result has to be taken into account." There seems no reason to discount the opposing arguments here, particularly for a fresh RM so soon after a previous one, and the bar for a consensus to move was not met. Based on the fresh evidence of other sources not using the Welsh, this is even more relevant. If anything, that leans the conversation even further towards not moving. — Amakuru (talk) 08:12, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
X (social network) (closed)[edit]
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The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
The page was moved prematurely when there was no consensus from the discussion; there were 29 comments supporting the move and 20 opposing it. In the mover's talk page discussion, they said quote "In my opinion, WP:Commonname is generally acceptable, but sometimes it does not align with common sense.", and also "From my observation, more people supported the move. Considering this, and acknowledging the series of previous failed attempts with Twitter, I found it acceptable". These two statements, in my view, show a lack of understanding of how move discussions are supposed to work (they made a choice that aligned with their own common sense rather than consensus, and they counted comments as votes). When asked for clarification, the closer stated "If you believe microblogging is the same as X, no answer from me is going to convince you", which shows an unwillingness to discuss their decision to move the page. In short, this page was moved way before consensus had been reached based on the personal "common sense" that a non-admin found "acceptable". Di (they-them) (talk) 04:43, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the close of this review. Please do not modify it. |
Engineer's Building airstrike (closed)[edit]
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The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
This is a straightforward supervote, with the closer deciding several things. The first being that "massacre" is non-neutral, and that the other pages within the same category of pages with the title "massacre" are not relevant. The close explicitly endorses maintaining systemic bias by refusing to engage with the fact that events that are titled "massacre" related to the ongong war in Gaza are not relevant to whether or not this event should so titled. A substantial majority of editors disagreed with the proposal and further disagreed with the claim that "massacre" is POV or that the other articles in the same category of pages are not relevant. That was ignored by a straightforward supervote. If the closer felt that their view was that this should be moved they should have voted instead of imposing their view over the consensus of editors opposed to the move. nableezy - 21:47, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the close of this review. Please do not modify it. |
Year | Jan | Feb | Mar | Apr | May | Jun | Jul | Aug | Sep | Oct | Nov | Dec |
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2024 | Jan | Feb | Mar | Apr | May | Jun | Jul | Aug | Sep | Oct | Nov | Dec |
2023 | Jan | Feb | Mar | Apr | May | Jun | Jul | Aug | Sep | Oct | Nov | Dec |
2022 | Jan | Feb | Mar | Apr | May | Jun | Jul | Aug | Sep | Oct | Nov | Dec |
2021 | Jan | Feb | Mar | Apr | May | Jun | Jul | Aug | Sep | Oct | Nov | Dec |
2020 | Jan | Feb | Mar | Apr | May | Jun | Jul | Aug | Sep | Oct | Nov | Dec |
2019 | Jan | Feb | Mar | Apr | May | Jun | Jul | Aug | Sep | Oct | Nov | Dec |
2018 | Jan | Feb | Mar | Apr | May | Jun | Jul | Aug | Sep | Oct | Nov | Dec |
2017 | Jan | Feb | Mar | Apr | May | Jun | Jul | Aug | Sep | Oct | Nov | Dec |
2016 | Jan | Feb | Mar | Apr | May | Jun | Jul | Aug | Sep | Oct | Nov | Dec |
2015 | Jan | Feb | Mar | Apr | May | Jun | Jul | Aug | Sep | Oct | Nov | Dec |
2014 | Jan | Feb | Mar | Apr | May | Jun | Jul | Aug | Sep | Oct | Nov | Dec |
2013 | Jan | Feb | Mar | Apr | May | Jun | Jul | Aug | Sep | Oct | Nov | Dec |
2012 | Jan | Feb | Mar | Apr | May | Jun | Jul | Aug | Sep | Oct | Nov | Dec |
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