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Satellite image of a section of the Great Wall of China, running diagonally from lower left to upper right and not to be confused with the more prominent talkpage running from upper left to lower right. The shadow at the upper left indicates "You are here." Talkpage archives are not visible.File:Князь Данило Острозький у битві на Синіх Водах.1362 рік.jpgMongol hordes attempting to enter EEng's talk page are repulsed by the maze of disorienting section headings and the brigade of fervently deranged talk page stalkers. Many die of carpal tunnel syndrome while scrolling to the bottom of the page.
FDA Warning: Pagescrolling-related unilateral musculoskeletal asymmetry
My friend told me that the best way to get a man would be to impress him with my ability to crush a can so forcefully that the contents shoot out, fly up in the air and land in my mouth, so every morning I do yoga, swim and then come here for 40 mins scrolling to the bottom of EEng's talk page; my right forearm looks like Popeye's now and it's done wonders for my love life.
(a/o February 2, 2016: 131 stalkers, 81/89 "active" [4])
a. Stalkers caught on camera; b. Why was the gardener unhappy?
Lee Harvey Oswald
I'm in awe of your copy editing, it's a real object lesson in how to take sentences that seem ok, but then transform them into something much more fluid and logical. Even though you make it seem easy, I'm sure it takes a lot of time. I think it's an amazing skill and I'm studying your changes closely to try and learn as much from them as I can. Thank you. Alistair Stevenson (talk) 23:36, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Aw, shucks! (blush) The article was (fairly) well organized, and competent at the sentence level, but too much fat -- unimportant details like Ruth Paine drove Marnina from city X to Y, then later drove her from A to B -- OK, we know Ruth was a family friend and friends do such things -- the interested reader could find out details from the refs. Amazing how much tighter things get when you cut even small amounts of stuff like that, which then allows even whole paragraphs to collapse into a single (albeit somewhat more complex) sentence. Again, just for the record for anyone else listening, I have no interest in getting involved in controversy over LHO and JFK -- my intent is strictly to copyedit the article as it stands, neither adding nor omitting anything substantive. Having received no accusatory condemnations from impassioned assassination theorists of whatever stripe, I guess I've succeeded in doing that so far. Thanks for taking the time to compliment. EEng (talk) 12:38, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Genealogy databases
Hello,
I thought an earlier post of yours about the use of Ancestry.com was truly excellent, and I have cited it here [5]. If you are interested, you might want to take a look at the RSN discussion yourself and contribute your own thoughts. I am sure they would be helpful. Slp1 (talk) 13:11, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The Whiffenpoofs poised to perform the Fantasies of Victimization of 1912
EEng, shockingly, I find I quite like you. The change came when I began to put your comments in the voice of Seth Green's character in Party Monster. It's no insult. He's mesmerizing. And when I imagine Seth Green's voice saying the phrases "Naturally I thought Lockley was behind this at first" and "be careful not to feed Lockley's fantasy of victimization" in the same breath, it makes a lot more sense. Now do let's leave each other alone for awhile if you can stand it.--Lockley (talk) 02:35, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I never saw PM and have only just now checked it out. Your comparison to me took on a disturbing quality when I read, ...which details his friendship with Alig, that later fell apart as Alig's drug addiction worsened, and ended after he murdered Angel Melendez and went to prison, until I realized that the Seth Green character is the friend, not the murderer. EEng (talk) 22:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I get that hate-turns-to-love thing a lot, though usually it takes years. I'm assuming you've alredy seen [7]. Shall we now, together, tell PBS to go soak his or her head? What a schoolmarm! It's like Atilla the Hun has appeared to dispense justice on my behalf. Saints preserve us! EEng (talk) 02:49, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. Be more careful who you hang out with -- that Binky guy's up to no good.
P.P.S. Pull any more of that Yale shit and I'll have you boiled in oil.
Two years ago ..., - and did you know that several editors I know enjoy your user page inspiration, unable to decide which pair of image and caption is most to the point? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:59, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'll stop replying. Sometimes, I know I'm being goaded and still can't stop rising to the bait. Thank you for your reminder. Unless there are problematic edits to articles (as opposed to talk pages) the matter merits no further response. Feeding the beast is an apt metaphor.
It's good to have a voice of reason around.
On another matter: I'm no good at finding lost minds. But here's the Ming you were looking for:
Remember our long-lived friend (who amazingly, seems to have actually taking his indefinite block to heart)? While this one guy is a rank amateur by comparison, similar lessons apply, especially this one: in general (sad to say) it's too much to hope that the party with whom you are engaged will be convinced; convincing those watching and listening should be your goal. Once you think you've achieved that you can fall silent, leaving your interlocutor to babble on contentedly. EEng (talk) 05:08, 31 July 2013 (UTC)CRASH! Oh dear. That thing wasn't genuine, was it? After all, a Ming is a terrible thing to waste.[reply]
I must thank you for one of the best (and funniest) scenarios of Wikipedia editing I've read. I'm going to be chuckling all day. The cleanup you're doing on MoS is making it actually useful, and I thank you for that as well. I should probably appreciate that more, but it doesn't make me giggle with joy. htom (talk) 15:52, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe this will make sense to you. You asserted, with palpable condescension, that immigrated from and emigrated to are blunders [10]:
There is no possible level of appropriateness to debate on this subject. One "immigrates to" and "emigrates from" Consult any grammarian source if in doubt.
Though no possible level of appropriateness to debate on doesn't recommend you as a wordsmith, I would never deny my own fallibility. Thus I double-checked and... guess what? Your prissy 7th-grade English teacher Mrs. Snodgrass was wrong, and my warm and wonderful 8th-grade teacher Mr. Dunkum was right (hi, Mr. Dunkum, wherever you are!): one may emigrate from or emigrate to or (if one prefers) immigrate from, or to, as well.
You've been offered three compelling arguments for why this cannot be but so:
Argument logical [11]: Under your theory this sentence is verboten--
He emigrated from England to America.
because (you say) one can't emigrate to somewhere. And the following is also a no-no--
He immigrated to America from England.
because (according to you) one can't immigrate from somewhere. So, presumably, you would have this--
He emigrated from England and immigrated to America.
inflicted on the reader, and that's ridiculous. QED.[1]
Argument empirical general [12]: As seen here [13] examples of emigrated to are thick on the ground in the opinions of the Supreme Court of the United States, the Supreme Courts of sundry states of said United States, and the esteemed and honorable Courts Supreme (or other highest courts) of numerous other jurisdictions and sovereignties. High court justices are usually considered exemplary expositors.
And as if that's not enough, no less luminous a legal legend than the great Epaphroditus Peck quoted the digest of a Massachusetts court's opinion thus:[2]
Refusal by an English woman, whose husband had emigrated to the United States and had obtained employment here, to follow him to this country when he reqeuested her to come and sent her money for her passage, was held to be desertion by her, it being found that she had no other reason for her refusal that reluctance to leave her native land. Franklin v. Franklin, 190 Mass. 349; 4 L.R.A. (N.S) 145. See the note to [etc etc and so on and so forth...]
Now, you're not really planning to climb into the ring with Epaphroditus Peck, are you?
Argument empirical specifical[3][14]: Emmanuel College's tablet "In Memory of John Harvard A.M." describes the man as "A member of Emmanuel College who emigrated to Massachusetts Bay...", and later describes itself as "erected by Harvard men ... in the College which fostered his beneficent spirit." Since as is well known Harvard men think they're always right, and Emmanuel men pretty much are always right, this wording (passed by both) must surely be considered dispositive.
The true difference between imm- and em- is a subtle one of emphasis and narrative point of view. These --
John lost his best friend when Bill emigrated to America.
Many of these new immigrants to America had left good friends behind.
Those emigrating from France found it relatively easy to obtain exit papers; those from Germany, less so.
American authorities scrutinized those immigrating from France less carefully than those from Germany.
-- are all fine and all subtly different, and would be irreparably crippled if twisted to fit your Procrustean bed of linguistic over-prescription.
Not everyone shares your high opinion, Mr. Jonesey (assuming you weren't being facetious). Aside from ol' CG (abovebelow) we have this effusive praise: "so snobbish and pigheaded that I could only make it through three sentences until I couldn't force myself to continue." [15] Noting, however, that it was this critic himself who wrote the bulk of my post's opening (i.e. "There is no possible level of appropriateness to debate on this subject... Consult any grammarian source if in doubt") I must complement the gentleman on his candid self-evaluation. EEng (talk) 04:25, 30 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I could not have been farther (further?) from Facetious, wherever that may be. Mesmerized was more like it. Gobsmacked. Enthralled. I smile enigmatically at you, and my eyes follow you about your chambers. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:02, 30 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My attorney will need your address for the restraining order. It would be best if you cooperate. EEng (talk) 05:54, 30 January 2014 (UTC) P.S. Many people leaving Facetious find themselves in Synecdoche (and of course when I say Synecdoche I really mean the greater Synecdoche area).[reply]
Personal attack? You decide! [Section heading not supplied by ChrisGualtieri]
Did you really... and I mean that... need to spend all that time making such a post? Its your time, but I think some of this is a bit ironic. Glad to see you are still floating about. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:45, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In any event, it took about one Masterpiece Theatre episode. (This current post cost about 1/2 a Modern Family.) You like to mass-update article classes, I like to warn off stubbornly misinformed know-it-alls.
WARNING! Text inside constitutes, according to one editor, a personal attack!
Chief among our differences, CG, is that you seem to think that beautiful portraits (or fine Wikipedia articles) are created by dutifully coloring between lines set out for us by our betters, instead of considering what will please the eye or nourish the intellect. Perhaps you would have asked da Vinci, "Did you really need to spend all that time making such a picture?"?
I'd watch those personal attacks and bearing false witness because I don't tolerate such abuse sitting down. Your comment shows your ignorance and folly - but if you take such pride in burning bridges, far be it from me to tell you that you've burnt the last with I. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:40, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Far be it from me to tell you what I just told you.
Second on the list of differences between us is that you think everything's a personal attack. You certainly don't take anything lying down -- you get right in there and issue stern warnings! [16][17] Some of them are even "last" warnings! [18] And "bearing false witness" -- what... gonna report me for violating WP:TENCOMMANDMENTS?
Re "Far be it from me to tell you that you've burnt the last [bridge] with I"... Is that meant to be some kind of brain teaser? It's like a kid saying, "I'm not gonna tell you that mom has milk and cookies in the kitchen."
Not sure if you realise that your edit at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers inserted your reply in the middle of Makyen's comment, which I believe is poor form: your reply should be below, after Makyen's signature, to avoid confusion about who wrote what. I suggest you move your reply.
Sorry to always be harping on the negatives instead of admiring all the good stuff you've been doing! I get the sense that you sometimes seem to be in a rush to post your changes and then having to repeatedly edit again and again to patch things up, and there's always the risk that someone will revert, edit, or start a conversation while you're still perfecting your work. Maybe it would be beneficial if you tinkered in the sandbox before posting your finished product for all to enjoy, which might make us all more inclined to praise your work rather than criticise works in progress. I digress. Keep up the good work! —sroc💬14:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Poor Lizzie died of fright, but I, Kafka Jane, can give a close reading if you wish. Overall, I'd say it looks damn good. Kafka Liz (talk) 11:25, 25 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Your recent editing history at Template:Did you know/Preparation area 4 shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.
To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. You should know better than to behave this way.Orlady (talk) 13:44, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So should you. Honestly, can't you just let something fun and interesting, like a weird old word almost no one's seen in 200 years, live and grow? [22]EEng (talk) 13:48, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Your action -- introducing a word into a hook in prep that was not used in the article, is found in very few dictionaries, and was not discussed on the nomination page -- is indeed typical of the antics of some less mature Wikipedia contributors, but it is not in keeping with the established rules of DYK, except perhaps on April 1. --Orlady (talk) 13:52, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Your action -- introducing a word into a hook in prep that was not used in the article, is found in very few dictionaries, and was not discussed on the nomination page -- is indeed typical of the antics of some less mature Wikipedia contributors, but it is not in keeping with the established rules of DYK, except perhaps on April 1. --Orlady (talk) 13:52, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Um, something's just come up with "Article has not been created or expanded 5x or promoted to Good Article within the past 10 days" (using my DYK checker tool). Not sure what to do about that. Seems a real shame.Martinevans123 (talk) 20:14, 30 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Martin, that DYKchecker tool is just a tool for use by humans. Humans aren't suppose to let the tool make decisions for them. Humans can -- and do, on a regular basis -- understand that articles are eligible for DYK if they were nominated within the specified time window. Eligibility doesn't automatically expire for nominations sitting on the noms page. --Orlady (talk) 21:22, 30 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. But then I'm only human, alas. And only mostly idiotic. I'm guessing that it was indeed nominated within 7 days of its passing GA (if that was what's required). Martinevans123 (talk) 21:31, 30 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think the nom is timely. As you know I never pass up any opportunity to point out that the idiotic 7-day idiotic requirement is idiotically idiotic. So can you complete the review? EEng (talk) 21:36, 30 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
When I left a message on the DYK talk page, I didn't expect much to come of it for at least 12 hours, but the deadly duo of EEng and Yoninah performed magnificently, I expected it would need some fixes from me, but you, Yoninah, and Belle fixed all the issues. Thank you very much for getting it done for me, I am very grateful. Best, Matty.00707:00, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Today's drama-fest will begin at 1400 hours. Refreshments and snacks will be provided for the peanut gallery.Turkish Delight also available.
Without wishing to comment on who's right and who's wrong, I threw together User:Ritchie333/Hit and run editors today, and one point I made in it is that the typical Wikipedia reader won't be too fussed about what citation templates are used in an article. I can barely master {{sfn}}, and even then it's akin to drawing a pentagram on the floor and hope the formatting doesn't cause errors or get reverted. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)17:17, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
[Referring to caption at right] Dammit, I'm going out. I hate for my tickets to go to waste. Know anyone who can use them? To answer (Ritchie) your question re GA (not FA) delisting, see [23] which incidentally makes some blushworthy comments.
But seriously, I'd be very happy for you to comment on who's right and who's wrong. .
Oppose: that's how we do things round here when asked for a comment (I know you didn't ask me to comment, but that's par for the course too) Belle (talk) 18:02, 28 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Further to Ritchie: Your essay is bang on. You might want to draw on this by Beyond My Ken (you'll find it linked under Thoughts or something from his userpage):
The flip side of "ownership" is the problem of editors who come to an article with a particular agenda, make the changes they want to the page according to their preconceived notions of what should be, and then flit off to their next victim, without ever considering whether the page really needed the change they made, or whether the change improved the article at all. These hit and run editors certainly never take the time to evaluate the article in question, consider what its needs are, and spend the time necessary to improve its quality. Their editing is an off-the-rack, one-size-fits-all proposition, premised on the idea that what improves one article, or one type of article, will automatically improve every other article or type of article. In the grand scheme of things, "ownership" may cause conflicts when two editors take the same degree of interest in a particular article, and disagree with it, but mostly it helps to preserve what is best in an article. On the other hand, hit-and-run editing, including the plague of hit-and-run tagging that's defaced so many Wikipedia articles, is a much more serious problem, because it's more difficult to detect, frequently flies under the flag of the MoS (and therefore is presumed at first blush to be legitimate), and is more widespread. Wikipedians should worry more about those who hit-and-run, and less about those who feel stewardship towards the articles they work so hard on. 03:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
BMK's thoughts page is generally brilliant - here's another one : "Start with an article that looks like shit and reads like it was written by a high-school dropout. A hundred edits later, take another look at the article – and it still looks and reads like shit. That's because the intervening edits did useful things like replace m-dashes with n-dashes, capitalized the first letters of template names, added interwiki links, vandalized and reverted the vandalism, made sure that bold text was being used as laid down in the manual of style, removed extraneous blank lines and miscellaneous other actions which did not, in any fundamental way, improve the article." Ritchie333(talk)(cont)10:20, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thin-skinned admin blocks for criticism of himself!
Noting that you are blocking for comments regarding you, I'll let the great John Stuart Mill try to explain to you how ridiculous you're making yourself look:
Before quitting the subject of freedom of opinion, it is fit to take notice of those who say, that the free expression of all opinions should be permitted, on condition that the manner be temperate ... If the test be offence to those whose opinion is attacked, I think experience testifies that the offence is given whenever the attack is telling and powerful, and that every opponent who pushes them hard, and whom they find it difficult to answer, appears to them, if he shows any strong feeling on the subject, an intemperate opponent.
In other words, it stings because it's so true, you're mad because you can't think of anything to say in response, and as the person criticized you shouldn't take it upon yourself to decide whether the criticism is appropriate.
I doubt I'll appeal this since there's more use letting it stand as a 48-hour monument to your thin-skinned pettiness. Along those lines I'd appreciate it if you'd note this block in the ANI discussion -- unless you'd prefer others not see your action side by side with the "offense" that prompted it.
P.S. Will you be blocking Nyttend as well? After all, he called you an "amateur" [25] -- that must have stung pretty bad too. Or that mean Ritchie333, who called you "a stereotypical Wikipedian, who makes a large amount of similar changes to pages, despite having had no evidence of being previously interested in any of them" (not by name, of course, but then I didn't call you by name either -- you just seemed to know it was you that I was referring to -- funny, isn't it). Ritchie also mentioned that "One of the reasons hit and run editors have gained prominence in [the area of trivial formatting changes] is that writing the encyclopaedia has become more difficult. The quality of work has increased in some areas, which makes it harder to contribute without good knowledge in the subject matter and sources. Fiddling with the formatting seems to be a suitable alternative passtime". That must really hurt. You should definitely block Ritchie333 for that!
But I'm not sure if blocking someone is that much nicer? I certainly wouldn't condone "personal attacks", but goodness me, compared to what I've been called on occasion, this looks like a rather mild but candid observation. Could Bgwhite be regarded as "involved" in any way here? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:52, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Martinevans123, perhaps you'll be kind enough to post a mention of this block at the ANI thread. I want it in the record there before it gets archived. Bgwhite apparently prefers to work under cover of darkness. EEng (talk) 14:26, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Bgwhite: probably does not agree with your continued snark and attacks, but I do not think changing the header to "Admin blocks for criticism of himself" is appropriate here. It does not seem to follow the talk page guidelines and I've warned you repeatedly for making gross abuses of my own text. Please stop inflaming the situation - this is getting beyond distasteful. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:59, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't change words I wrote. For the record, I had edited the ANI discussion three times and not on the thread you responded too. You were responding to John and Typto's comments. The examples you gave were John's and you took a swipe at John. Your words were directed at all editors editing Gage. Other admins at the ANI page said you did a blockable offense. At least now you are directing your hate at me instead of Chris, John, Typto and everybody else. Just drop it and edit Phineas Gage with Chris. Bgwhite (talk) 08:05, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Just for the record: No editor contested the blocked while it was active and no unblock has been requested. Eeng remained blocked for 48 hours. -- Magioladitis (talk) 13:02, 7 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, missed these comments until now, and they bear responding to, just for the record.
As already explained above I was perfectly happy to have been blocked by a thin-skinned bully like Bgwhite. And many more editors at ANI said I did not "do a blockable offense" (to use the words of an editor who has trouble writing English) and scolded Bgwhite for acting in clear violation of WP:INVOLVED.
My words were not directed at all editors editing the Gage article, but rather a small group of self-certain editors who tag-team actual content contributors to maintain their freedom to impose nonexistent "rules" reflecting nothing but their desire to feel they're doing something useful -- regardless of whether or not they actually are.
Magioladitis' clueless non sequiturs, showing he comprehends nothing that came before, make more obvious how blissfully insular is the mindless echo chamber of mutual cheerleading in which this group operates.
It's almost artistic -- the way in which your spare, innocent obliviousness makes my point more eloquently than I could ever hope to make it myself. EEng (talk) 05:14, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No, I don't have to be blocked -- what a weird way you have of expressing yourself -- but if a thin-skinned bully wanted to further underscore what a thin-skinned bully he is, that would be a great way for him to do it. EEng (talk) 18:28, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Opinion is split on that, with no middle ground -- it seems an editor can either love my style, or burn with hatred for it, with no middle ground ever. Submitted for your consideration:
The phrase in dispute was is remarkably small, which leads me hope the teenage girl wasn't someone he was dating -- though that would explain the autonomic hostility. EEng (talk) 22:19, 16 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).
Admin Bgwhite is WP:INVOLVED, as he and I have had trouble before re this very article [31] (though I have never told him or anyone else to "fuck off") and on other articles.
I repeatedly asked that the question be raised at the article's Talk page, per BRD. [32][33][34]
Blocks are meant to be preventative, not punitive. Bgwhite blocked me [35] seven hours after my last edit, and after another editor had restored the article to "my" version [36]. The article continues to remain in "my" version, with no attempt to change it by anyone including WP:INVOLVED admin Bgwhite. The block serves no purpose.
Your edits weren't exempt from the rules on edit warring, because you weren't removing a copyright violation, a libelous statement, or vandalism. In this context, you were edit warring, and considering this is your second block, 72 hours is a reasonable duration. PhilKnight (talk) 07:52, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
{{unblock|1=The unblock decline did not address any of the points I raised in my request, which are, again:
That the blocking admin acted in contravention of WP:INVOLVED, given his prior disputes with me regarding that very page and other pages.
That the block was in no way preventative, in that it was made 7 hours after the last relevant edit to the page (during time no other admin saw fit to take action, and despite an ANEW thread being open all that time -- reinforcing the stink of INVOLVED already mentioned).
}}
Discussion
EEng it's not "your" version. Any block to bots that you added was removed exactly because it served no reason as I explained you but you kept reverting me and another editor. The nobots tag on the page is only to prevent bad typo fixing by editors who won;t understand the template you put inside a word. In fact, the template inside the word is not needed since the browser takes care (or at least should care care) of this. -- Magioladitis (talk) 09:27, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Bottom line, the template you were warring to remove was restored by another editor, after which you suddenly dropped your efforts to remove it. Whether the template has the precise same list of bots as before doesn't matter -- it lists the bots that have recently done damage to the article, which is all I was trying to maintain. (Talk page discussion might have come up with a narrower list of bots to block, if that was your concern, but you declined my repeated invitations.)
Please stop trying to prove who's right and go spend your time fixing the bugs in your scripts that are the cause of all this wasted effort. EEng (talk) 14:25, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, a second block by Bgwhite. What a coincidence. Do you have any idea how user:Bladesmulti learnt of your lil spat with Magioladitis in order to revert you 11 minutes after your second revert of Magioladitis? It seems like another coincidence. Did they participate in any related discussions about the article? p.s., for future reference, 3RR is a fairly strict limit; once you hit it, you need to take a break or take the matter to talk / another venue for more people to see the dispute and help one way or another, irrespective of right or wrong, unless the article is a BLP or very clear-cut vandalism. John Vandenberg(chat)16:39, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, based on my conversation with Bladesmulti in the section just above this one (#Edit_warring_on_Eleanor_Elkins_Widener) it appears he walked in on the dustup with Magioladitis quite by accident (though I think it would have been better had he stayed out of the firefight, not knowing the background).
Of course you're right about 3RR, strictly speaking, but you'll notice that seven hours after a 15-minute edit war only Magioladitis' old pal Bgwhite saw fit to issue a (72-hour!) block over such a silly matter.
It's also too bad that an unblock request sits for days with no resolution either way. I'm not ashamed to be blocked by a thin-skinned bully like Bgwhite (see #Thin-skinned_admin_blocks_for_criticism_of_himself.21 -- and even less ashamed to be blocked by him twice, since it shows his colors that much more clearly -- but naturally I'd prefer that the record reflect the WP:INVOLVED, punitive, and angry nature of his action.
For those who don't know, Magioladitis is the maintainer (or one of the maintainers) of AWB, which does a lot of good on certain types of articles (those which haven't gotten careful human attention to their formatting) but also a certain amount of bad on other articles (those which have been carefully formatted by humans, sometimes in ways outside the experience of editors like Magioladitis and Bgwhite). What seems to have upset him (or them) is that the article carried a {{bots}} template asking that AWB and certain other bots, which have made damaging "fixes" to the article in the past, spend their time elsewhere. I suspect his hacker's ego is hurt by the idea that his scripts don't have free rein to roam as they please, and his edit summaries claiming "any problems have been addressed" and "tools work after last changes I [made to?] the page" are typical of assurances heard from inexperienced programmers everywhere: "Now I'm sure my code works -- I found the last bug -- trust me!" He doesn't seem to understand that no tool is appropriate for every situation. That's only my speculation of course. EEng (talk) 18:26, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As I wrote, with page's current state, no AWB bot will make any unwanted changes. And in fact the bots tags is completely useless there since the only possible problem is a typo fix bug. Since typo fixing is only made by human editors and it is known to be imperfect (for instance, in some cases, there are typos on purpose or "typos" are actually rare words) editors should get any edit before the save. AWB's typo fixing is more of suggestions and less strict rules. I never wrote that I guarantee that AWB does not have bugs and it won't make unwanted changes in future version of that page (or any other page). It is very likely that the entire problem was a misunderstanding but please assume good faith in the future. -- Magioladitis (talk) 21:37, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What is the block length of 72 hours based on, exactly? If this repeated re-addition was based on some kind of lack of understanding in the part of EEng, is a 72-hour block meant to be more effective in "re-educating" him than a shorter block? Surely the link provided to User:Bgwhite's edit of 22 August shows he was very clearly WP:INVOLVED? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:51, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I can't speak on behalf of Bgwhite but just note that the time period is the next bigger after the previous 48-hour block. I do not like if the discussion goes there. I think the best is to find a way to work altogether and I see EEng not helping on this direction. There was no reason to go for 5-6 reverts as there is not reason not to believe me that AWB won't affect the page negatively for the time being since I have tested it before removing the tag. If we all assume good faith and co-operate we will be more productive. Have you seen me making any large scale changes in any of the pages EEng works? No. Because EEng does a wonderful job, as fasr as I have seen, in finding sources. I respect their work but I would like to see a page in a state other editors can get involved too. Anyway, I do not want to open a completely new conversation about everything right now. -- Magioladitis (talk) 22:05, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've been feeling awful about this since it happened, and I haven't known what exactly to say until now, but I feel like there are a few things I want to say. As EEng knows, 3RR is a serious thing, and I think the final straw was that EEng made two reverts after the notice on his talk page. There was a report at WP:3RRN, and administrators pay close attention to whether or not the reverting stopped after the editor was notified. It seems to me that if Bgwhite had not made the block, some other administrator would have. (And I don't think that requests to go to talk in edit summaries of reverts make the reverts alright.) EEng, please, we need you here at Wikipedia, and you are too smart to get sucked into these edit wars. Please get a hold on the reverting, before we lose you completely. I'm really worried, and I really mean that. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:16, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well No, Magioladitis, I must admit that I haven't really been monitoring your interactions with EEng. And I only really commented as it's been quite a while since he requested, along what appear to be very sensible lines, a review of his block. Perhaps he'll get a review after about 71 and a half hours have elapsed? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:28, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I just looked at the list of requests for block review, and there's a backlog, with 31 such open requests right now, so I doubt that there is a personal snub here. But I have an idea. EEng, just in case you want something to do while restricted to this talk page, how about archiving old threads? Otherwise, you might be going for the world record for the longest user talk page! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:34, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I've blocked EEng before. That doesn't mean I cannot block him again. I'm not aware of any interaction I've had with him since 7th September. That was to complain that EEng is changing my messages on his talkpage, which he has since changed again (so, warning, EEng has done and may edit by messages here). The interaction before that was August 30th. I believe EEng has a fixation on me, but not the other way around.
I was contacted by two people about EEng's edit war. They also made me aware of this thread at WP:AN3. So, if I didn't make a block, someone else reading AN3 would have.
I've blocked three people (including EEng) in the past week for 3RR, two 72-hour blocks and a 24-hour block.
a) The other two were on the same article. One person was recently blocked for edit warring, thus I did a 72-hour block. The other person had a clean slate, thus a 24-hour block.
b) I did 72-hours for EEng because: He was recently blocked, he reverted 5 times, he reverted three different people, his was disparaging in his edit summaries ("your vague assurances are worthless") and he disregarded the instructions at {{nobots}} on how to apply the template. Remove half of these and it would still warrant 72-hour block. From WP:EW, "Where a block is appropriate, 24 hours is common for a first offense; administrators tend to issue longer blocks for repeated or aggravated violations, and will consider other factors, such as civility and previous blocks."
Unlike what EEng said in his block appeal, the article is not currently at "his" version. This is his last version. This is the current version. They are different.
EEng did ask the question to be raised on the talk page. However, EEng never did raise it on the talk page. On his 5th revert, he did ask this to be discussed again. After the 3rd revert, one doesn't continue to revert, they should ask the question on the talk page. EEng wasn't following what he asked of others.
@Bgwhite: You said: "I was contacted by two people about EEng's edit war." I don't see those contacts on your user talk page. Can you tell us anything about those contacts? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:14, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Tryptofish, both were by email. Both were sent while I was asleep. I do believe they were sent so I would block EEng. Who/What/Why is not relevant. Admins get notices all the time about somebody's alleged bad behavior. I've been sent emails and notifications multiple times the past month about EEng and not acted on it. This time, he clearly broke the rules, which is why I intervened. If EEng didn't break the rules, we wouldn't be here and that is the only thing to consider. Bgwhite (talk) 23:42, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Bgwhite: Thanks very much for the reply. I agree that it doesn't matter who the people were, and I have no doubt about admins getting lots of e-mails. But I think that I can safely infer that the two persons weren't merely spamming every admin they could think of. They likely contacted you because you were the blocking admin the previous time. In no way do I think that this fact affects the validity of the block, so please don't think that I am implying that. However, it does speak to how you are becoming perceived as the admin who is receptive to blocking EEng. For that reason, I recommend that you consider yourself to be "involved" in the future. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:49, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I thought the idea behind WP:INVOLVED was that the blocking admin was, or had been, in dispute with the blocked editor in the same article? Saying "if I didn't make a block, someone else reading AN3 would have" looks a bit like saying "WP:INVOLVED doesn't apply if I can save another adnin diong the same job."? Martinevans123 (talk) 07:19, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that PhilKnight's reasoning is correct. Although I've said what I said above to Bgwhite, I think that the two existing blocks walked right up to the line of INVOLVED, without actually crossing over that line. Bgwhite never edited the Widener biography page where the reverts took place. In most of the conflicts between EEng and Bgwhite, Bgwhite has been acting in an administrative role rather than as a disagreeing editor, although, just as EEng has, frankly, taunted Bgwhite, Bgwhite needs to start considering, going forward, that he is starting to be perceived as having an involved or prejudiced role. And I wish EEng would drop the review requests, because it would be asking a lot of any administrator reviewing the AN3 report to assume that, had EEng been reverted again, EEng would not have continued to revert, given what had already happened. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:46, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Unblock request was declined per WP:UNINVOLVED which reads "One important caveat is that an administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic area purely in an administrative role, or whose prior involvements are minor or obvious edits which do not speak to bias, is not involved and is not prevented from acting in an administrative capacity in relation to that editor or topic area." -- Magioladitis (talk) 15:36, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A fair comment. Thanks for clarifying that your decline was not "per WP:UNINVOLVED". But I think you should give a clear answer about it, one way or the other. If you think the block is still valid, that's fair enough. But at least we will all have clarity on when it is appropriate to block and when it is not. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:35, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with John Vandenberg's comment about going over 3RR - there are very few circumstances when that's acceptable, and this certainly wasn't one of them. In this context, I think the block is valid. PhilKnight (talk) 17:49, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is all quite academic at this point, but still enlightening. Magioladitis, you don't seem to have looked at the diff I supplied re INVOLVED [37] -- a discussion in which I asked (not of Bgwhite):
What purpose is served by activating it? Please answer in terms of how articles are improved by highlighting < p>, not in terms of the mechanisms of operation of these tools. EEng (talk) 11:33 am, 22 August 2014, Friday (1 month, 16 days ago) (UTC-4)
and Bgwhite jumped in out of nowhere to reply
We've been thru this before. You do not like anything about Checkwiki. You've told us to fuck off. You've called us MOS Nazis. We show where in MOS, but you've used MOS is just a guideline/policy and IAR. The funny thing is, one of the reasons Phineas Gage is not a GA is because of your idiosyncratic formatting. The very thing we've been preaching is one of things holding back your GA nomination. Eleanor Elkins Widener is already on the whitelist and won't be checked for <p> again. Bgwhite (talk) 1:35 pm, 22 August 2014, Friday (1 month, 16 days ago) (UTC-4)
(All false statements on Bgwhite's part, BTW, other than that I did refer to certain editors as "MOS Nazis", for which I later substituted "schoolmarmish know-it-alls" or something like that.) Now, does that really comport with UNINVOLVED's criterion, which reads
One important caveat is that an administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic area purely in an administrative role, or whose prior involvements are minor or obvious edits which do not speak to bias,
--? Hardly. Bgwhite lost his temper, repeatedly, and still allowed himself to act on his anger in an administrator's capacity. EEng (talk) 01:26, 16 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well then, I will step in here like a schoolmarmish know-it-all, and say that I stand by what I said earlier, that the block stepped up to the line of "involved" without quite crossing over it, and that Bgwhite should consider himself involved for the future. And beyond doubt, EEng has acted on his own anger as well. Which isn't worth it. Peace. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:52, 16 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse me? An admin who says to an editor "You do not like anything about [this administrator's pet project]. You've told us to fuck off. You've called us MOS Nazis" is an "administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic area purely in an administrative role, or whose prior involvements are minor or obvious edits which do not speak to bias"? Again, you must be joking. EEng (talk) 00:43, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You and I both have better things to do than to dwell on this, but when you have called other editors MOS Nazis, even if it is later changed to something else, you should drop it for your own sake. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:12, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The greater the extent to which one considers what I said offensive (I actually don't, per Mel Brooks) the more obvious is the INVOLVED aspect. EEng (talk) 23:43, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I actually feel bad for the article's creator Northamerica1000, since this deprived his article of the full time in the oven it deserved. Anyone want to propose that the hook be re-run? EEng (talk) 21:51, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, please. If he can't take it he shouldn't be dishing it out [38][39]. This guy's always angry. There's no dispute here, just his venting, so there's no dispute resolution to be made more difficult. EEng (talk) 17:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You having the most experience in the petty feud quarter, of course. Actaully, I was going to ask you to take over for me, since you and Bloom are always entertaining to watch. EEng (talk) 21:12, 24 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Bravo. I've turned over a new leaf, i.e. not arguing the toss with those who will never get it, plenty of them around. But the initial advice stands, start a thread rather than attempt a puerile debate via edit summaries. That way we'll get it all out in the open and neither of you will need to feel anxious or upset. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:17, 24 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I had noticed you were less of a curmudgeon lately. Keep up the good work. There's nothing to debate, as BMS has made the needed fix, Bloom's incomprehension notwithstanding. EEng (talk) 21:22, 24 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's more convincing when the person warning about "edit warring" isn't one of those doing the reverting. You're obviously angry about other things. [41][42]EEng (talk) 21:50, 25 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
See [43]] for what all this is about. As with earlier incidents recently (I seem to be making a habit of this [44]]) I'm pleased and gratified to be blocked at the behest of someone so transparently angry [45]. Hopefully this will allow him to cool down. EEng (talk) 23:37, 25 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
EEng, the best thing I can think of is that a very long time ago, an unruly landlord took exception to the music the band I was in were playing, and at the end of the gig told us to not come back while turning a blind eye to a couple of drunks hurling our equipment out into the street, nearly causing injury due to a bass drum flying through the air. When 3RR wars break out, think of tales like that and remind yourself "it could be worse". Happy holidays. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)14:45, 26 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest you revert this edit. The comment is off-topic there and makes you look petty. I don't think it contributes to a good working climate, either between the two of you, or in general. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 02:54, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the suggestion, but decline. I'm not embarrassed to be blocked at the behest of someone like that, but I prefer that the context be on the record. EEng (talk) 03:27, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said somewhere else, it just goes to show that hookers aren't appreciated, despite providing a much-in-demand service. EEng (talk) 21:11, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Today is "National shit on EEng from a great height day". Please bring your rotten tomatoes and automated insult generators. Thankyou. Image courtesy of Ritchie333
How prescient of you (see below). In the event, it apparently didn't. So what do you think -- should I file the ritual futile unblock request? EEng (talk) 22:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If you'll specify just why you blocked me, I'll consult my glittering salon of talkpage stalkers for advice on whether I should file the ritual futile appeal. EEng (talk) 22:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
ked me, I'll consult my glittering salon of talkpage stalkers for advice on whether I should file the ritual futile appeal. EEng (talk) 22:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Drmies:, @Yngvadottir: - I've just had a GA review torpedoed as a result of EEng's block, I don't suppose you've be awfully kind like you were to the Best Known For IP and consider "time served" would you? EEng, I think you've made your point in the AfD (as have I) and we should both leave it alone. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)22:51, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
EEng, I'm saying this as one friend to another - leave ANI alone. Rubbing Drmies up the wrong way is likely to result in a block, possibly an indefinite one. Now, don't take that as meaning I support or want you to be blocked - I don't! But the peanut gallery at ANI generally don't tend to evaluate the pros and cons of an editor, and once you've been dragged there a few times and blocked, it's easy for said peanut gallery to think "he's not here to write an encyclopedia" and break out the banhammers. Please, just stick to articles and DYKs - whatever other disagreements we've had recently I can honestly say your work at DYK is a good thing and very much appreciated for keeping the quality of the main page upheld. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)12:51, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I doubt that anyone is going to blocked for rubbing me the wrong way, and I'm not going to block for it. And Ritchie, it wasn't just the peanut gallery, if that's what those folks were: ANI, as I feel I have to explain constantly, is not a forum--and so, EEng, it doesn't matter whether something takes three hours or not. It's consensus plus an admin's judgment, and in this case the admin is me. Few people dislike the forumy peanuty chatter at ANI more than I do--but I hope that there's at least one person in the room who understands that the constant reopening of threads and the persistent shit-smearing in that discussion is, in general and in the long run, what makes ANI the barrel o' crap it is. So, EEng, you made a comment, I (and a couple of others) thought it violated guidelines for talk page behavior, I removed it--and really that's all there is to it. I got no problem with you, and you can complain as much as you like as long as it's not too disruptive. Also, I don't work for Harvard either--does that help? Drmies (talk) 14:55, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What, I should just sit around while ol' BGwhite just makes up stuff up (e.g. that I work for Harvard)? I understand what you're saying, but I feel the best thing you can do (for me, for you, and for WP) is to speak up yourself and say what you think. These people are out of control.
Thanks for the complements re DYK. I'm not mad at you re GA, but I do think you misunderstand what the standard is meant to be there, along with most everyone else at GA, which is why it seems few quality editors care about GA status for articles anymore -- articles get GA status for conforming to very cramped ideas of what articles should look (not stated in the GACR, though) with little regard for whether they're anything anyone would actually care to read. EEng (talk) 13:47, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Your contribution to the day's events is of course most welcome. As mentioned to Ritchie above, though, speaking up at the venue is important too almost as important. At heart this intolerance of criticism is a serious threat to the project. EEng (talk) 13:47, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think we'll just have to put Widener behind us, but on the general principle I am in pretty much agreement with your views on GAs; on more than a few occasions (eg: Talk:1988–94 British broadcasting voice restrictions/GA1) I have passed a GA with a comment like "well we've got issues with x, y and z but they're not part of the GA criteria so I'm passing anyway". IMHO the following are not required to pass GA : infoboxes, templates, categories, URLs for print sources that happen to be online, non-free images, audio files, an inline source at the end of each paragraph, links to other articles, any external links .... I could go on.
It would have been nice when you did not use PAs to blemish a nominator on an article. The article was rotten, unsourced and seemed to fail WP:GNG. Thanks to your work to add all kinds of related sources the article is now just rotten and seems to fail WP;GNG. Congratulations with that achievement. The Bannertalk20:42, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Thanks to your work to add all kinds of related sources the article is now just rotten" -- I guess I've been confused all these years, because I thought adding relevant sources is what we're supposed to do. Anyway, the article may be rotten (and it is) but that's got nothing to do with AfD. The article was unsourced, but if you'd simply googled the article title you would have come up with several good sources immediately, and saved us all this trouble. It's not a "PA" to point out that you apparently didn't do that, as WP:BEFORE calls for you to do. You seem to be under a misapprehension about how AfD works -- articles don't pass or fail AfD, rather their subjects do, regardless of what's in the article. EEng (talk) 22:29, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Samuel Eliot Morison was a Pulitzer Prize-winning historian. Mason Hammond was one of the real-life "Monuments Men" you may have learned a bit about in the recent film of that title. If you're seriously suggesting they're not reliable sources then I'm afraid there's a gap between us that further discussion will be unable to bridge. EEng (talk) 23:30, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The MoS (up to about 13 January 2014) used to call for a spaced en dash if either date in a range of dates contained a space. I see that you were in the middle of that MoS change, but I couldn't find any discussion regarding it. Was there some reason for dropping that requirement, or was it just something lost in the shuffle? There is no specific guidance now for how to correctly format a case like "Otto Schulmklopfer (c. 1819 – c. 1871)", though the example "Dionysius Exiguus (c. 470 – c. 540)" still uses a spaced en dash. I have added spaces to en dashes in cases like this and had them undone, and now find my ammunition disappeared around January last year. Any clarification would be appreciated. Christhe spelleryack03:16, 28 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A quick check doesn't find that the interaction between c. (& c.) and spacing of the en dash was ever explicitly stated, but anyway I added something [46]. Does that do the trick? EEng (talk) 04:31, 28 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, and thanks for catching it. For some reason stuff like that only happens when I'm being a smartalec. EEng (talk) 22:42, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
^Consult your doctor before trying this medicine. Symptoms include: a systemic allergic reaction, a worsening of withdrawal symptoms for not placing {{ANI-notice}} in months, and casting the first stone.
Where have you been lately?
I know they say no one's indispensable, but in the case of catchy hooks, you have been the only one doing anything about it. Where have you been lately? I really felt I had nothing but "blah" to work with while assembling Preps 3 and 4 last night. The part about hooks being "hooky" should be written in the rules in blood! Yoninah (talk) 09:12, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, beating back the philistine forces of Professional Wikiism and Stultified Solemn Dignity [48] has left little time for actual hooking. But I did manage to get in [49]
Well somewhere in my monobook is a script which does precisely what you're looking for, highlighting dabs and redirects and all that jazz. It's most likely to be "Anomie's stuff" but feel free to copy, paste, refresh cache and see how it goes. P.S. Clear out your talk page. Too long by about a factor of five.... The Rambling Man (talk) 21:48, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at your edit summary here, could you clarify your intent? Did you mean to be offensive? If you are trying to piss off other editors - to use your phrasing - why complain at all? It's okay when you do it and you're special? I'm not understanding the message you're sending here. --Pete (talk) 19:23, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The grrrr of my edit summary distills what the edit itself says: "I'm beginning to see why everyone's so pissed off at you." For example, you keep fussing that date-format choices for particular articles shouldn't be decided at Talk:MOS. That's true -- but nobody's proposing to do that nor is trying to do that. Your "You do understand this, don't you?" was the icing on the cake. EEng (talk) 19:33, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that - and your incorrect perception - but could you answer my question, please? Evading the point just makes me more curious to hear your explanation. --Pete (talk) 21:55, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Here are the answers to the questions in your OP:
Q: Looking at your edit summary here, could you clarify your intent?
A: As already explained, grrrr expressed frustration.
Q: Did you mean to be offensive?
A: No.
Q: If you are trying to piss off other editors - to use your phrasing - why complain at all?
A: Aside from being rhetorical, question is counterfactual since I'm not trying to piss off other editors.
Q: It's okay when you do it and you're special?
A: I don't know what it refers to, but we're all special in our own ways.
Thanks for the explanation. I'm astonished that you don't see how your edit summary could be taken as offensive, but your answers make this clearer. Perhaps you could be more careful in future? --Pete (talk) 22:20, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You're easily astonished, and no extra care is needed. Now stop wasting my time trying to conform my edit summaries (!) to your delicate sensibilities. EEng (talk) 22:28, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hover your mouse over the link and you'll see it points to https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/The_Mikado#behold. If you click on the link you'll see it takes you not only into the Mikado article, but the #behold makes it go specifically to the location of the {{anchor|behold}}, where that particular song is discussed.
I will probably catch hell for this, but my patience has run out. Will you please stop making personal attacks against The Rambling Man on WT:DYK and anywhere else. I'm dead against blocking established contributors, but other admins are not, as you well know. Attacks don't help your argument, it just means people either think the other party is right or ignore the conversation. Please, do something else. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)10:14, 11 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Are you fucking kidding? Where were you yesterday when he said I "continually accept, even promote, the mediocre"? Making accusations requires evidence, which he has twice coyly refused to give. He's been insulting everyone at DYK on a daily basis now for months, and it's time someone bells the cat. EEng (talk) 10:19, 11 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair, I am not happy about TRM referring to DYK as "horseshit" either, but when I look at the arguments presented, his are geared more towards content, and yours seem more geared towards him as a person. Why can't you just get along? I see Bencherlite has presented a pretty good summary of how to quell this dispute, and I would take that good advice at face value. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)10:48, 11 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, he hasn't. He's giving TRM carte blanche to continue his constant denigration of other editors, now including me directly. As I explain here [51] TRM's a liar who says whatever pops into his head. EEng (talk) 10:55, 11 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A typical cart blanche (note use of "soaked head").
That may be, but given that calling people liars is covered by NPA, if someone continually does it after being asked to stop, they generally end up blocked. Believe me, I know how you feel. Viriditas (talk) 03:03, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, repeatedly referring to someone's "continual acceptance, even promotion, of the mediocre" [52], with the clear implication that I'm doing it on purpose in contravention of policy-- and just to be clear, I'm neither doing in on purpose, nor doing it at all (I don't do DYK reviews nor put prep sets together) -- then refusing to back that statement up, is also a personal attack, but none of the drive-by admins give a shit about that. (It's worth noting, BTW, that none of the admins who regularly hang out at DYK -- all of whom were uninvolved, cared to block.) In case you missed it, check this [53] out to see who's actually working to improve quality at DYK, and who's just complaining. EEng (talk) 03:19, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't any drive-by; I read the discussions and have WT:DYK on my watchlist (I used to comment there often). You'll also note that I only blocked after the last spat, which none of the other admins saw. If you have a problem with this block, please request an unblock and/or go to ANI—I am always happy to bring any actions I take as an administrator in front of a wider forum. Ed[talk][majestic titan]03:31, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, right, like anyone in his right mind would submit an unblock request or take it to ANI -- not that I give a shit about a 31-hour block, or any block like this really. They're monuments to the dysfunction of the admin system.
But how about if I just ask you: if you read the thread, how do you see this [54] fitting into the picture? Do you think it's OK for an editor (an admin at that) to go around saying things like that (and he's been saying it about me for almost a year) with impunity? See, I don't give a shit about being blocked, but I do give a shit about aspersions about my editing, competency, and adherence to policy and guidelines. So again, please explain how what I said at that diff figured into your decision to block.
And while you're at it, given that you felt block(s) were needed (and they weren't -- TRM and I are perfectly capable of taking care of ourselves), please complete your sentence addressed to TRM here --
I seriously debated blocking you as well for blatant baiting.
-- using the word but, as in --
I seriously debated blocking you as well for blatant baiting, but I didn't because _______________________.
You fill in the blank, please. EEng (talk) 03:58, 13 June 2015 (UTC) P.S. The [name of impressive laboratory device] is warmed up now, so I'll be gone until sometime tomorrow -- take your time.[reply]
(a) Only one person was making personal attacks. (b) You had been warned. I actually came here to warn you, and blocked only after I saw this section. I'm done engaging here. Ed[talk][majestic titan]04:16, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And so, having ignored both questions, the drive-by admin declares the discussion closed and drives on. So much for WP:ADMINACCT:
Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed.
Only blocking one party in this playground squabble seems a bit unbalanced. I think I'd personally take "continual acceptance, even promotion, of the mediocre" as a personal attack. As EEng points out he doesn't "do DYK reviews nor put prep sets together". It's a shame that Old Rambler hadn't "done engaging" a lot sooner too. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:35, 13 June 2015 (UTC) p.s. I thought it was EEng's hopelessly juvenile "orgasm" comment that tipped the balance and led you to block him for "disruptive editing"?[reply]
I am unblocking based on "time served", on the T:DYK thread being hatted, and on TRM asserting on my talk that he will not continue the feud, shrugging it off as "a clash of egos". Since we can't leave people blocked when the cause of disruption goes away, I'm doing it now. There now follows a choice of viewing. On BBC ANI, a discussion on censorship between Derek Hart, the Bishop of Woolwich and a nude man, and on BBC Eeng, me telling you this. And now....Ritchie333(talk)(cont)09:01, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the gesture, Ritchie, but I'd rather that during the dispute you'd taken the time to see what Martin sees so clearly above: TRM attacked me repeatedly (and falsely) with impunity, and when I finally told him to shove it up his ass, I got blocked. EEng (talk) 15:57, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
For your wit, constructive sarcasm and edgy humor, your perspective and contributions, sometimes contentious but worth it. I could bet serious money that your wiki-adventures here may someday be the start of a novel novel.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 11:19, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Martin, I was talking to Tom's Ulcer, not you. That's what the overindenting is for, remember??? Geesh. EEng (talk) 15:33, 13 June 2015 (UTC) But you're welcome too.[reply]
Sooner or later I will probably visit Cambridge and perhaps we can arrange a get-together. Hope you are doing fine. I'll check out Charles R. Apted.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 09:50, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the query in your edit summary on The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, the Baring-Gould commentary to NOBL describes "Lord St. Simon" as a "solecism," because St. Simon was a second son. But if that is so, it is a solecism that was perpetrated by Conan Doyle (or should I say Dr. Watson?) himself, and so we probably should feel comfortable leaving it. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:32, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I remembered that B-G had said something about this, but I'm at that age where I'm sometimes too lazy to get out of my chair to go find out exactly what. Thanks for taking the time. But who's this Conan Doyle? EEng (talk) 21:01, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Seconded—although, to be fair, it seems our colleague's primary concern was actually that the article would lead to sweeping bans on meat consumption, and that incensed meat lovers, driven savage by frustrated bloodlust, would seek gory revenge at health food stores. FourViolas (talk) 20:55, 9 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In the future, when you make edits like this, i.e. quoting extensively from the prose of an article written by someone else, followed or preceded by sweeping, judgmental exegeses like "classic OR", it is generally a good idea to let the editor in question know so they have an opportunity to respond. In this case, you didn't, and I feel somewhat blindsided.
In the same vein, disparaging the votes that are going against you in an AfD isn't a particularly good idea, either. There is a lot more to them than just "passes GNG".
That said, in the case of some of the excerpts you posted I am amenable to making changes. However this will have wait till later next week when I have returned from Mexico, where I'm at Wikimania right now. I just don't have the time or the resources right now. The DYK nom is being held open pending the resolution of the AfD, which I don't think will have happened by then, so there's no rush. Daniel Case (talk) 23:03, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You've been around long enough to know you should keep your own DYK nominations watchlisted. The term is nothing more than a neologism for an age-old phenomenon that does not itself merit an article: young people who don't know how to dress at work. The OR is extensive, the article a kind of coatrack for stories of mis-attired young people who happen to work, specifically, in Congress. EEng (talk) 23:47, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. No apology whatsoever, no consideration given to the idea that I might have had hurt feelings, not even transparently insincere lip service. Instead, a lecture (which you should not have presumed to give) on how you think I'm supposed to handle my workload (something not even the Eric Corbetts of the world would have done), and a clear demonstration of your congenital inability to drop the proverbial stick (but perhaps I shouldn't be so harsh ... like far too many other Harvard legacy admits, you've got it too far up your ass to reach ).
I knew I was right not to check back here.
Keep up like this, and one of these days you're going to be sitting in front of the ArbCom, nervously twitching as they decide whether you will have any future at the project to speak of. When that day comes, count on me not being among those pleading on your behalf. Daniel Case (talk) 06:16, 31 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Do you really want transparently insincere lip service?
There's nothing to apologize for, and I have no idea what you mean about a "lecture". As Template_talk:Did_you_know#To_nominate_an_article says, "Make sure the nomination page is on your watchlist, so you can follow the review discussion."
Should I ever end up at Arbcom (and it happens to the best of us) I'll just stand on my record, thanks very much. Being blocked for calling someone—the blocking admin himself, in fact!—a "self-satisfied roving enforcer" is hardly a badge of shame [56], especially when an admin such as yourself feels free to refer to another editor's "congenital inability to drop the proverbial stick (but perhaps... like far too many other Harvard legacy admits, you've got it too far up your ass to reach)."
Anyway, sorry to disappoint you but my parents were the first in their (working-class) families to attend college—state schools, by the way—so no legacy I. Scholarship, too—does that fill you with even more resentment and anger?
@Daniel Case: I'm sorry for your hurt feelings. It must be upsetting to have your article criticized so comprehensively.
Even so, I wonder if you'd like to strike any of your comment. It's probably not the place of a relatively new user like myself to remind you to comment on content, not contributors, but I'm saddened to see an oversighter resort to an ad hominem vulgarity over an AfD. WP consensus on the limits of civility may have its vagaries, but one's interlocutors' anuses are generally not discussed IRL. FourViolas (talk) 06:03, 1 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think we can all agree that the less oversight of interlocutory anuses, the better, though of course this isn't real life. EEng (talk) 07:06, 1 August 2015 (UTC) I think you may be confusing ad hominem arguments with ad homonym arguments. That happens a lot since they sound alike. (I've made that joke before but I like to trot it out now and then.)[reply]
Zenobia
This is not Zenobia
Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
Neither is this
I just added Zenobia (bird) to the DYK stats page, and that reminded me that I wanted to thank you for your work on the article. Hooks/articles that I encounter among the nominations which I actually find interesting are, unfortunately, about as rare as those poor birds, so I was really glad that we were able to salvage this one for DYK. Sorry that your desired hook couldn't be used, but the one that made it to the Main Page got over eight thousand hits. MANdARAX•XAЯAbИAM01:35, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You did the same thing I did years ago, when I created a userbox with the image File:MagrittePipe.jpg and a caption "This is not a userbox." Here I managed to beat the bot before it could drop by to unceremoniously remove the non-free image, and have instead replaced it with a crude substitute. MANdARAX•XAЯAbИAM07:38, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't even know what to put here, I'm laughing too hard
I will admit that I stand with User:Softlavender. You're talk page is hilarious! Well done at getting into so many hilarious scenarios and being able to be both serious and humorous as needed!
You deserve every single one of these that you get:
Hello E. I got a chuckle out of this though I am not sure if that will be the reaction of everyone. Should someone start editing from the great beyond I think a new SPI report (that would be a spookpuppet investigation) would need to be opened. Cheers. MarnetteD|Talk17:35, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sooooo tempted to type something on that page and have Ritchie explain his way out of that (yes, fingers would be pointed straight at him when queried). Softlavender (talk) 12:24, 20 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, EEng. I wanted to let you know that I’m proposing an article that you started, Collection of Historical Scientific Instruments, for deletion because I don't think it meets our criteria for inclusion. If you don't want the article deleted:
remove the text that looks like this: {{proposed deletion/dated...}}
save the page
Also, be sure to explain why you think the article should be kept in your edit summary or on the article's talk page. If you don't do so, it may be deleted later anyway.
*Watches the Canadian Parliament write up the EEng Exclusion Act 2015* Well, someone just got barred for life. Now, for the smugglers. Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 22:03, 18 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is good to know I have an ally when trouble arises. Thank you for your cogent and temperate support. I owe you other communication. One of these days, perhaps when you have given up all hope. In the meantime, if you would like me to set up auto-archiving on your page here, let me know; I'd be happy to help. Hertz1888 (talk) 20:22, 17 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Words fail. When you unblock me, please make sure your entry in the block log makes clear the nature of your original action in instituting the block; the words "outrageous", "tone-deaf", "absurd", "ridiculous", and "incompetent" would all be good choices. EEng (talk) 06:40, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A 48 hour block would have been appropriate for the shitty attitude you have been laying down at ANI. While it may be fun and jokes you were getting into topics that did not involve you and grinding your axe. You were adding heat to situations that did not need heat added to them. The indef was over the top, but your behaviour was not so innocent either. The block was excessive but did not occur in a vacuum. Really if a reasonable length block has been made it would have stuck, so don't act too self-righteous. HighInBC16:17, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
HighInBC: Pardon me, but what in the world are you talking about? "Grinding axe" -- huh? Here's every ANI post I made in the week before the block. Which ones are in any way inappropriate?
If you're one of these people who thinks that humor doesn't have a useful purpose, including (or even especially) in difficult situations, then please add yourself to the list of admins whose experience of the world is sufficiently limited that you should probably leave behavioral blocks, other than obvious vandalism, to those with a broader perspective and more social clue. EEng (talk) 16:46, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't accept your false dichotomy. The fact is you are going to topics that don't involve you and taking up space commenting on things that in no way help the situations. I don't think that thinking this is annoying and unhelpful means I don't think humour has a useful purpose. Your humour is taking the form of telling people off. If I have made your "list of admins" that is too bad, but perhaps consider that your behaviour is also a factor. HighInBC16:57, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
HighInBC: Again: huh? Of the three posts above, one was an image adding harmless comic relief to the otherwise dreary ANI landscape, and the other three were absolutely serious comments on what was going on (though (d) also carried my notorious ribbing for Drmies). So false dichotomy or not, I must insist that you answer: which of those justified my being blocked? That's a very serious charge, so either put up or shut up. Or do you, like Nakon, just shoot from the hip, and stonewall when called to account? EEng (talk) 17:59, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think a trout may have been sufficient. I know you are having trouble seeing your comments as disruptive, not sure how I can convince you otherwise. HighInBC18:11, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, or maybe a small supply of trouts. EEng is often frustrating and exasperating. But I am pretty sure that we dont have a policy that makes that in itself a cause for an indefinite block.·maunus · snunɐɯ·18:29, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
HighInBC: Oh, I see. First you cast this as "a difference of opinion on what justifies an indef block" [66]. When that turned out to be ridiculous, you wanted 48 hours. Now it's a trout. Have you no idea how corrosive to the project are this kind of careless and imperious pronouncements on the fate of us peons?
Yes, I'm having trouble "seeing [my] comments as disruptive", because you've dodged my repeated demands that you say what talking about. And now that Nakon has issued a full (and very gracious) retraction and apology [67], you're alone in insisting that I did anything wrong at all. So you have two choices now: admit you were just shooting your mouth off, or make it obvious you're one of those people who has to always insist he's right, no matter what. (I put that last bit in big-bold so that, since you undoubtedly will continue to bob and weave, it will be obvious to everyone, at a glance, what's going on here.) EEng (talk) 10:45, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You are to be commended for graciously accepting Nakon's apology. Now, that seems like an odd thing to say, but around here, some people are only interested in perpetuating the drama no matter what. MANdARAX•XAЯAbИAM (a fellow back pain sufferer) 21:17, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
EEng, it is obvious from HighinBC's comments that he is a prime example of what I have been saying for years about administrators around here. Their first rule- Protect their own. High's defense of a outrageously bad block which was followed by a pathetic defense that no one but the hardcore administrators will ever defend. What Nakon did is just another example of why administrators are allowed to get away with almost anything whereas we editors get routinely shafted on a regular basis....William, is the complaint department really on the roof?16:04, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm genuinely puzzled by HighinBC's views, because I have always regarded High as someone with good judgment (and I'll refrain from suggesting any relationship between height and cough syrup). I guess it just comes down to the difficulty of assessing humor online. EEng, I hope your back feels better soon. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:21, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. While you guys are at it, you might take a look at Nakon's reversion (here) of my clearly constructive changes (which, while fit subjects for discussion as all edits are, certainly don't deserve a high-handed no-edit-summary trashing). Perhaps this is Nakon's subtle way of underscoring the need for effective mechanisms for recall of heavy-handed admins who, having made essentially no edits in six months [68], suddenly appear out of nowhere to throw their weight around in situations they know nothing about, then mysteriously go silent when called to account. EEng (talk) 06:40, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've restored the edits to Deletion process. Looks pretty strongly like a rollback by mistake, so I've assumed as such and undone it. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 06:58, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. I fully agree with IJBall in this edit; I'm happy to remain blocked as long as it take for Nakon to come to his senses. Wikipedia doesn't need me nearly as much as it needs to come to grips with the problem of this kind of admin. EEng (talk) 06:42, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately a cramped ride in a crowded taxi recently left me with a herniated disk. It hurts like the dickens, so until it's treated on Monday I have to get up every 2-3 hours and walk around to relieve the pressure on the spine.
If you look at my block log you'll see I'm quite used to this kind of crap, and I hope it won't sound wrong when I say I wasn't worried for a second about how this would turn out. I appreciate your taking the time to get the ball rolling on clearing things up, and when this is all over please take a few moments to visit the Museums. EEng (talk) 07:06, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Fwiw, I wasn't worried about the long term either, since this case is clearly that of a bad block but, as you say, I simply wanted to get the ball rolling to resolve this as soon as possible given always the on-wiki constraints. Thank you for your kind words EEng and for the invitation to the museums. Very interesting places indeed. :) I wish you a speedy recovery and a Happy New Year! Dr.K.07:20, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have unblocked, as this is clearly an unjustified block and current consensus agrees. Blocking for that reason, without discussion, was not acceptable. Discussion will carry on at AN, I'm sure. WormTT(talk) 09:36, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I considered leaving you blocked a couple of people suggested (and you agreed), but I refuse to see a bad block stay in place until the blocking admin sees the light. Especially as the blocking admin hadn't posted for 3 hours. If you want to take it further, go ahead, I'll be willing to comment in any forum you bring it to. WormTT(talk) 14:37, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
One more comment, and then I'm going back to suffering horizontally for a few hours instead of vertically... With regard to this comment [69] by IJBall: Obviously Nakon make a mistake, but it was a mistake no admin should ever, EVER be making. Consider the exchange which Nakon cited [70] as the basis for blocking me:
Even though I'm an Arbcom member, I'm just commenting here as an average, everyday editor.
Drmies: "Next time just post on EEng's talk page. Not only do they know a thing or two about Wikipedia policy, they also have lots of time on their hands."
EEng: "Drmies, shouldn't you be cabaling with your fellow Arbcom-ers?"
Next to my comment, I posted the image you see at right. Someone who can't see that Drmies was teasing me, and I was teasing him/her (I'll figure out which someday) back, shouldn't be an admin, much less (as Nakon is) on the OTRS and UTRS teams.
Add to this the facts that...
everyone knows that Drmies is perfectly capable of taking care of himself/herself;
Nakon, asked to account for his actions, still failed to see the absurdity of what he'd done, pointing to the completely innocent exchange (quoted above) as justification for the block; and
Nakon, by blocking both my email-this-user and my talkpage access, was forcing me to appeal my block through the very UTRS system for which he is one of the gatekeepers...
...then we have here either grossly poor judgment or heedless arrogance. Take your pick.
Hey EEng, sorry I missed the party--that was a bad block and I suppose Nakon knows this by now. FWIW, I enjoyed your comment, as wrong as it was--when you made it I was either doing dishes, singing karaoke, reading Paul Theroux, or sleeping--or all four simultaneously. The secret ArbCom cabal doesn't meet anymore on Fridays (don't tell anyone) in part because of all the young people, like Kirill, GW, Keilana, and DGG; Friday nights it's usually dancing and then Waffle House. I'm obviously not invited to those events. Again, my apologies for that block; may we have many more fringey conversations together. Try not to get a spike through your head. Happy Saturday morning, Drmies (talk) 14:49, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, I doubt Nakon understands how wrong what he did is (though of course he understands everyone else is telling him it was wrong). I suspect he rationalizes it as just a minor mistake. You know me well enough to know I don't give a whit, for myself, about being blocked, but the demoralizing effect of this kind of behavior on the rank and file is substantial. You have a forgiving nature, but please consider what I said at AN [71]:
I don't think it aggrandizes my momentary martyrdom to say that the outcome of this thread will tell us plebians once and for all whether admins are subject to even the most minimal standards of accountability, or can do whatever the fuck they want with no meaningful consequences, ever. Imagine if I'd been a new user—score another one for editor retention!
I, and many others I'm sure, would like to see you take the lead in not letting this end up just another monument to uncontrolled admin misbehavior. If I may suggest you might start by emailing Nakon and making clear to him that he's expected to participate in the AN discussion. EEng (talk) 15:35, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've spent a few hours today looking into Nakon and his actions. He's not a bad admin, he's hard working and a massive benefit to the encyclopedia. It just seems that last night he went... off. I've put detailed explanation of the issues at his talk page - but given his history, unless he comes back and goes off the deep end, I don't believe that anything is going to come out of this. Everyone is allowed to make mistakes, and as far as I can see, this is a one-off mistake. I'll be keeping an eye on what happens and may well have more to say. WormTT(talk) 15:56, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Worm. EEng, I have not seen the AN discussion (unless I edited from my phone, in which case I don't know what I did, haha) but I'll have a look. Drmies (talk) 16:15, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Holy bleep, EEng! I was logged out throughout this entire fiasco, but now that I've seen it, I am appalled at what happened to you. Heck, you've said way worse to me, and I don't have a problem with anything you said to me. There was nothing remotely block-worthy here. At least this particular admin came around to making a genuine apology, which I think does count for something. In any case, your literal pain in the back sounds far worse than the figurative pain in the neck, and at least there was no iron through the skull, so I wish you a rapid recovery, even though you clearly never lacked for a spine! Best wishes, --Tryptofish (talk) 22:33, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've been around in Wikipedia for a while now, love EEng's humor, and don't know the particulars of what the current dispute is about, but my two cents is that an indefinite block is way too much punishment, that we need sharp guys like EEng in Wikipedia if only to help others think, and that EEng does contribute to the encyclopedia. But I haven't examined this subject in depth -- it is my two cent opinion.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:06, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Lack of in-depth examination was the problem here, Tomwsulcer. As an ArbCom member I charge more than two cents for my opinion, of course. Kelapstick, what's our going rate? And do we accept gold nuggets and bauxite? Drmies (talk) 14:53, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose I could charge more than my two cents for an in-depth examination, but I'd probably fall asleep mid-examination on this one. Good idea to keep me off of ArbCom for the foreseeable future; better yet, we'll pay you ArbCom members in 100% pure bauxite for your judgments.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 18:22, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sooner or later I'll probably visit Boston again. Right now, I'm promoting my new novel Jakk's Journey about, as you may have guessed, a high school boy who builds a spaceship, flies to Betelgeuse, meets sexy aliens, has adventures, and learns how to become a human! Sooner or later Jakk may get a page in Wikipedia.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 22:42, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have no previous knowledge of Nakon, but I see that he may in fact be an Obotrite leader who flourished 954 – ca. 966. Well he's certainly not flourishing now, I'd say. I'm sure it's very easy to react, on the spur of the moment, to comments at AN/I which don't immediately appear to be constructive. But in this case, I think a lot of editors who have been watching from the sidelines, think he may have made what is commonly termed "a mistake". I'm just wondering if he should admit that, or even offer some kind of apology as a result? Or maybe he thinks that admins all "reside in a "ringwall" of fortresses"? And that whatever mistake one administrator makes can be neatly corrected by the prompt action of a second administrator? It would be nice to know. Just as a detail of medieval Slavic tribal history, of course. Remnant Visa 123 (talk) 20:41, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
p.s. well I obviously should have checked before I started writing this! He has done the very noble and polite thing and offered an unreserved apology. And that's something that, in general, is rarer than hen's teeth around here. I have great respect for that and I applaud him for his honesty. A Tanner Vims 123 (talk) 20:56, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
...Wow. Rather odd, sociologically speaking, that a mouse click and a few comments from a rhinovirally impaired Internet user could have caused such consternation among so many. Glad to have you back, EEng, and please don't take it out on your poor fellow invalid; as AirmanVents notes, we don't say sorry to our friends when we hurt their feelings as often as we should, and those who do so are greatly to be admired. Pip pip, rest well! FourViolas (talk) 02:58, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Restored headers and messages
Hi EEng sorry to see what happened, personally I appreciate your sense of humor. Anyway I've taken the liberty of restoring your page headers, and also all of your old messages have been moved to User talk:EEng/Archive 3. So your talk page is fixed a bit better anyway. Good luck with things --Jules(Mrjulesd)21:24, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to disappoint, but as most of know I prefer to let it all hang out, so for the moment I've restored everything. However, I promise to do at least some archiving soon, or maybe reorganize into subpages. Not just now, but soon. Thanks to everyone for their marvelous performances in the latest production of Through the Looking-Glass, and What EEng Found There. EEng (talk) 11:22, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Aagh! (Tryptofish runs crying from the room.) It breaks my computer again! (And are you sure you want to talk about letting it all hang out in a discussion about it being too long? Sorry, I couldn't resist!) --Tryptofish (talk) 22:24, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Contributions from friends near and far
You should have plenty of time to concentrate on you User Page and Talk Page from now on, EEng, "fnarr, fnarr".... A Rams Invent 123 (talk) 15:04, 9 January 2016 (UTC) p.s. but now very pleased, of course that your Talk Page is a reasonable length, at last. oh no! ... where's that new "dislike button" again? [reply]
Jimbo announces Greatest Stature Award, to be given annually in honor of EEng
I'm at a birthday party in London for Wikipedia – surrounded by the celebrities like Jimmy Wales and the WMUK crowd, cutting the birthday cake. They have a visualization of Wikipedia running on a big screen here and I was watching the edits just now. I recognised many of the topics and was especially tickled when I saw an edit to Phineas Gage pop up. I said, "I bet I know who did that – it must be EEng". I was right – don't you ever stop tinkering with this thing? Anyway, thanks for beavering away to provide the cabaret while we party on... Andrew D. (talk) 21:14, 16 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Even on the toilet, apparently... (Caption by EEng) "...now if I can just tamp down this blasting powder into this hole..." (Caption by ME123)
The day may come when I'll switch to maintenance mode for Gage, but not likely soon. Research continues.
Until recently I thought I toiled in obscurity, except of course for my periodic trips to ANI. It was a shock, therefore, when during the recent fiasco an editor commented that "Blocking an editor of EEng's stature is [something] [somethine] [something]". So apparently I've got stature—my mother is so proud! If you send a self-addressed, stamped envelope I'm giving free autographs for a limited time.
That visualization thingee is cute. I'm sorry to be missing the party. Re your userpage photo, I've been meaning to mention that I was in London recently (30% Gage research, 70% pleasure -- my favorite place in the world) and for the first was able to fit in some followup at BL. When I saw that sculpture of Newton out front I was instantly reminded of this quote from him:
I keep [a] subject constantly before me, and wait 'till the first dawnings open slowly, by little and little, into a full and clear light.
That's the one. When I first saw it, in situ, I honestly thought it was a guy on the toilet. I thought, "Why does the British Library have a statue of a guy on the toilet." EEng03:22, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, You have more than 2,500 edits to Phineas Gage (talk+article), and still why this article is not good article or featured article? You have devoted your entire life for this article and you read this article daily for 700-800 times which is quite amazing thing. I think you should nominate it for FA. Your efforts worth more than FA. Currently that article has more than 37,000 characters/bytes, I hope one day you will have more edits to article than number of characters in article. That will be a distinct and unique record. Best of luck. Cheers. --Human3015 It will rain16:27, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(talk page stalker) I cannot remember how long I've been stalking, or exactly why, but Harvard springs to mind, and this, the rather bitter dispute over it some time ago, between who I cannot remember, and do not care. wow. Point is that I've read the Gage article many times since, and it is fascinating, and thought you should know. -Roxy the dog™woof16:40, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
[FBDB] Goodness me, I thought some fool had tried to make it a "Good Article". But I can clarify that EEng has not devoted his whole life to this article. He has also spent whole years on the Museums on his Talk Page, in constructing the world's longest Talk Page, and in making inappropriate puns and convoluted lame jokes on other editor's Talk Pages. He deserves a permanent topic ban from Gage for relentless WP:OWN issues. Isn't that right Trippy? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:52, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
[FBDB] Personally I think maybe the topicban should be broader, as I sense that maybe EEng has a close personal connection to all articles about people whose brains have been damaged by metal bars.·maunus · snunɐɯ·00:50, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've added my new {{FBDB}} template to some of the posts above, so no one gets blocked.
I appreciate the kind comments. My experience with GA has not been good, unfortunately, largely because (IMO) too many people do the one thing you're absolutely not supposed to do when reviewing, which is to impose their personal preferences (about what an article ought to look like) instead of sticking to the actual list of GA requirements. If people want to try again maybe the time is right, but here's what I'd ask to happen first: maybe everyone could take an informal look at the article versus the criteria (which are presented and discussed at WP:What_the_Good_article_criteria_are_not). Then problems can be fixed before nomination. Are there two or three of you who'd like to volunteer?
I'm not volunteering for that, and I have a hunch it's a recipe for a repeat of what has happened in the past. But – on the plus side, FBDB made me LOL! Well-played! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:37, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid you're right, but sooner or later someone's bound to nominate it, so better it be planned than a surprise. Anyone else? EEng01:18, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thus we see the chilling effect of the roving enforcers, though in case it wasn't clear, what I'm asking for is an unofficial review against GA criteria, not an actual GA review. But anyway...
Veering off topic
Roxy the dog, I'll be happy to set up for you a {TIBNAPA} template -- "This Isn't Bullying, Nor A Personal Attack". Or maybe {TIBNAPAJAF} (which really rolls off the tongue) -- "This Isn't Bullying, Nor A Personal Attack, Just Adducing Facts. What would you want the documentation say? -- see Template:FBDB. EEng17:16, 23 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
About the finger that one might give, I see from the TOC that there are now 208 sections to this talk page. I guess it's a baby-step in the right direction. But as Kirsten Dunst said in her film debut, "I want more!" (or actually, less). --Tryptofish (talk) 20:46, 24 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Since you seem to think engineers are mindless robots blindly applying rigid rules, - After I said, "I'm the engineer type"? Logic fault. ―Mandruss☎05:02, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but it didn't say just how far your tongue was imbedded into your cheek area. Museum is cool and I wish I could feel that humorous when I'm at Wikipedia. I've been trained well, and it doesn't turn on and off very easily, so I generally just leave it off while I'm here. How sad is that? (Although I was cracked up by "with no respect intended".) ―Mandruss☎07:00, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'd laugh if this kind of nonsense didn't represent such a colossal waste of editor time as you seek (unsuccessfully) salve for your bruised ego. EEng19:14, 2 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A request
Hi Eng, I'd appreciate it if you would not change the policies and guidelines around image sizes without consensus. It's a contentious issue and one that has caused a lot of bad feeling between editors in the past. People have to be given the chance to express a view about changes that might affect the way they edit, especially changes to policy. All the best, SarahSV(talk)00:27, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn't see anything contentious in Adam's edit, whereas you removed this, for example, which is widely relied upon, implying in your edit summary that you thought it belonged in the MoS instead. If you want to downgrade something from policy to guideline, it's better to check on the talk page first. People need the policies to be pretty stable. SarahSV(talk)01:22, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your link shows me removing something which wasn't there until Adam added it today, and the first part of my edit summary explained why I didn't think it should be added. So your idea that I was "downgrading something from policy to guideline" is completely wrong.
My edit summary's tail, anyway, this entire section really should be eliminated after merging to MOS/Images--doesn't belong here, was simply a suggestion for what we should do in the future to consolidate formatting advice, with the implication that in the meantime, we at least shouldn't be adding mere formatting stuff to Image Use Policy, thus exacerbating the already serious problem of fragmentation of that advice all over the place. EEng01:38, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Now that I've got that off my chest, let me say that I wouldn't be so pissy had this not been the second time in recent days you've got the wrong end of the stick. If you think any of my changes to WP:Manual of Style/Images were anything more than changes to organization and presentation -- that is, if you think any of my changes actually changed the actual advice being given in the guideline -- then please point out an example -- either something that got dropped, something that got added, or something that was substantively changed. Please note that what may at first appear to be new material e.g. the preference for upright and deprecation of px -- is in fact imported from longstanding provisions of WP:Image use policy, and obviously no discussion is needed before bringing that stuff over.
Certainly it's possible I might have inadvertently changed something substantive, but that's easily fixed and not an excuse for reverting the whole suite of changes which, I will modestly say, are a vast improvement over the prior vague, repetitive, randomly ordered presentation. Minor errors can just be fixed. EEng01:45, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've lost track of what you're doing there and at the guideline, but you now seem to have restored something you earlier argued was new and should go. I wish you would leave things as they are. SarahSV(talk)05:25, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry. Thanks to all the confusion you've sown, I mistakenly reverted just the second of a pair of edits. Now fixed by BushelCandle[76].
"I wish you would leave things as they are." I wish you would take the time to figure out what's going on before butting in and getting everything mixed up -- removing nonsubstantive changes with a call to "get consensus", then reverting the removal of undiscussed substantive changes, again with a call to "get consensus". You've made an already confusing situation worse, as not just I have tried to explain to you a couple of times now. [77]EEng10:21, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Remember how much fun you had playing with blocks as a kid? Now that you're an mature adult, you can collect blocks with adult letters, and they're not only stackable, they're collectable. I even have some! Atsme📞📧03:15, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Disclaimer: Intended as humor. Pure pun-ishment.[78]
- it was a slip of the keyboard due to my irregular finger sizes. I'll try to be more careful in the future. [pause to treat rug burns from rotflmao]. Only you would have caught that - ❤️ your wit!!! Atsme📞📧23:02, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I wondered at first whether that might be a bit of sophisticated wordplay on the part of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea News Service. I decided the answer's No when I realized they don't seem to know there's an apostrophe in Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Gosh, can't they find even one commie fascist totalitarian apparatchik who's fully literate in English? EEng23:19, 30 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If you don't understand the grammar, don't try to "improve" if you can't. There's no need for such a dickish edit summary either, which just compounds the show of ignorance. – SchroCat (talk)
You don't often see constructions of the form ; I'll add it to my treasury of especially clear writing exemplars. Also, it's a shame you corrected [79] your original post, because now my droll observation—
"There's boned for such a dickish edit summary"—what a curious way you have of expressing yourself!
—loses much of what modest punch it had in the first place.
Anyway, it's not always easy to guess which pretentious shibboleth you're harping on, but this time I'm guessing you hair's on fire about the shocking false title introduced here [80]. You realize, do you not, that denunciations from angry editor SchroCat (or should I say, "the angry editor SchroCat") are practically a badge of honor among the community at large? EEng17:25, 30 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If you don't have the intelligence to understand the difference in variants, then there's little I can do to lift you from the slough of ignorance you choose to inhabit. – SchroCat (talk) 17:38, 30 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Putting aside the question of whether that's actually what's going on, indeed you'd be the last person I'd nominate to lift someone from a slough of ignorance (you're so cute with those quaint expressions—you're like Maugham, except of course not really at all) so no disappointment there. But if that fantasy helps you sleep at night, by all means cherish it.
Sustained rounds of sputtering denunciation from you being particularly prized, can you please keep it up? And can you upload a photo of yourself turning various shades of red? I've added a placeholder at right. EEng20:58, 30 March 2016 (UTC) You forgot to tell me whether the dread "false title" was the pretentious shibboleth troubling you.[reply]
Well, I noticed you received some very nice compliments from some members of Proj Med for doing something commendable, and because of that, I figured it elevated you to a level that I could trust your input regarding some warnings issued over a highly utilized cure for bashfulness. I thought it best to ask you directly rather than bother more important editors like Tryptofish and Doc James with such trivia, especially if there was no cause for alarm. Please watch the following video and let me know if you think there is any need for me to be concerned. [82]. Atsme📞📧21:45, 1 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Of course the true power is behind the throne. Oh but look, Your Majesty -- you have an important state dinner to attend just now. Don't worry, I'll mind the store. EEng19:21, 2 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The Proj Med kudos are misleading, being based (most likely) on edit counts; I'm probably in the top N because of my 2000+ (no kidding) to a single article, Phineas Gage. Interestingly for your query, the remedy you're asking about has effects not entirely unlike those of the treatment Mr. Gage received i.e. an iron bar through the front of the brain, those effects including (to an extent not entirely clear) becoming a difficult person who can't make up his mind and stick to a plan. On the whole I think the "T" treatment is probably a better choice than that received by Mr. Gage.
Thank you indeed for bringing this matter to my attention. It will likely end up in one of the Museums in due course. EEng22:09, 1 April 2016 (UTC) P.S. Talk page stalkers are encouraged to click the link in the OP.[reply]
I got your ping (which for reasons I cannot explain seems to me to be vaguely related to validations of advisories) at that DYK discussion. I've gotta say, my first reaction was confoundment that WP didn't until just recently have a page about that, then I realized it was because of promotion to GA, then I began to feel like it was April 1, and then I figured April 1 is over so I would not comment there and would instead come here. Anyway, I wish you and the other editors a fertile discussion. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:52, 3 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well thank you, Yoninah! Since I'd just made my first nom in a long time, I thought I talk a walk down memory lane. Any maybe I will again now and then, but I don't think I'll be there regularly -- too much trouble for too little result. But feel free to call on me for my talents as a hooker. EEng16:26, 5 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Probably not, but it took me an awfully long time just to find this section on your talk page. And stop groping the salmon with your tiny fins. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:39, 25 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You probably mean reinstate, Einstein. You're a forum-shopping crank who's been harassing an established and respected user. Go soak your head. EEng14:42, 17 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
meant restate, which you did on his talk page and again here...but reinstate too as far as the revert...your behavior is against policy and inappropriate. how long you've been "established" on here is no defense..68.48.241.158 (talk) 17:35, 17 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Per the ArbCom motion, suggestions Hewitt makes on talk pages should be "brief", and Hewitt was reminded that he is still restricted from self-promotional editing per the original ArbCom case. The posted references do not contribute to the argument and are self-promotional. Do not act as the enabler of Hewitt. If you restore the material I removed again, you will be restricted from doing so. —Ruud19:23, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ruud Koot, please lay off the threats against another experienced, good-faith editor i.e. me. What the restriction says is [83]
The purpose of this provision is to allow him to make suggestions on the talk pages of his own BLP (Carl Hewitt) and the talk pages of articles about his work. Suggestions should be polite and brief and should not be repetitively reposted if they do not find consensus.
Hewitt's original post was indeed brief [84] and even if you think it wasn't, that doesn't excuse what you're doing. If you want to mark it "edit request declined" that's fine; or if removal of his complete post is justified, that's fine; or if you think he's violating his restrictions then take that to the appropriate venue. But you should not be materially altering another's post [85] in a way that misleads others as to its content (in this case, making it look like he posted proposed text without sources -- inappropriate though those sources seem to be).
I think Hewitt's a crackpot, but that doesn't excuse your heavyhanded actions at the article talk, or your highhanded attitude here, and I expect a response per WP:ADMINACCT. David Eppstein, if I'm missing something in all this please enlighten me. EEng20:12, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hewitt may or may not be a crackpot but he's also a sockpuppeteer, heavy self-promoter, and problem for the project. Hence his ban. If left to do what he wants he will filibuster the Gödel talk page into unusability; see the "arguments" links in the archive navbox of the talk page. So in this case, I do think it's reasonable to remove the comments (or move them to arguments). —David Eppstein (talk) 20:34, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said, removing Hewitt's post might be fine, but check the third link in my OP -- what was done was to silently modify his post very substantially, and that seems inadmissible under any circumstances -- wouldn't you agree? EEng20:43, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No. You fail to see the tactic Hewitt is employing here: he posts a semi-legitimate point for discussion and then uses this as a coatrack for self-promotion, disrupting the talk page in the process. If the post is removed completely, he will claim that he is being "censored" and revert back to sockpuppeteering, causing more disruption to the talk page. Those references are tangential to the argument, and removing them thus do not "substantially alter" his argument. If he notices his self-promotionalism is not allowed to stand, he may eventually give up on this, without being able claim he was mistreated. Do not allow yourself to be played as pawn in Hewitt's game. —Ruud21:54, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I wasn't asking if you agree, I was asking David Eppstein, whose comments so far support simple removal of Hewitt's post, or moving them elsewhere -- but not altering them. Inclined as Hewitt is already to claim he's being mistreated, you're giving him more ammunition by altering his post to remove the sources he'd included. I see nothing anywhere justifying such modification. Everyone can see the sources are self-promotional, so why don't you just let his post speak for itself (possibly assisted by a comment you add)?
I still haven't heard anything from you about your dickish threat against me. Admins who throw their weight around are a real hot button for me. EEng22:38, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If that material is left to stand, it would incentivize Hewitt to post more of such material in the future. If the material is removed, it might discourage Hewitt from posting such material in the future. The latter would minimize the disruption of the talk page.
I consider the removal of this material arbitration enforcement. I will use my administrative tools to make sure this material stays removed, if necessary. I prefer not letting it come this, and am required to warn you before I would do so. If you disagree with my interpretation of the restrictions placed upon Hewitt, I suggest you take your issues to the ArbCom here. —Ruud23:59, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
An admin upholds one of the five pillars without throwing his weight around.
Again with the threats ("I will use my administrative tools to make sure this material stays removed, if necessary. I prefer not letting it come this, and am required to warn you before I would do so") instead of engaging what I've said. I guess I can add one to the count of highhanded dick admins who resort to threats as a substitute for engaging what another has said.
Just as I predicted, your altering of Hewitt's post has given him one more thing to complain about [86]. While he'd complain no matter what, this way a bystander (unable to see what the refs were) might mistakenly believe the refs were appropriate, and sympathize with Hewitt. Great work, Mr. Admin. EEng14:45, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, that wasn't one of my better efforts. WPO: where they also wikigroan. I was trying to say that they now have Gawker as competition. As for the latter part, woopsy, I was misremembering this. I hope that my errors didn't dampen your moo. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:18, 29 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My favorite bit is "Wikipedia’s principled editor’s are in no moo." EEng05:18, 29 April 2016 (UTC) I'm (ahem) principled, so watch it with the comments, insects![reply]
I wasn't reverting because of your topic ban -- that was just additional information so other editors would know what we're dealing with here. There's absolutely zero patience for more of this longevity/GNG nonsense. EEng00:13, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I plan on appealing my topic ban and proposing a topic ban against you, Legacypac, and DerbyCountyInNZ. Tag-teaming like you're doing is unacceptable on Wikipedia. Nevertheless, if all else fails, I'll be getting in touch with the Wikimedia Foundation about the behavior you've shown. --Sailor Haumea (talk) 00:41, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please hurry, as it will speed the day you're indefinitely blocked along with your fellow longevity zealots, so the rest of us can go back to working in peace. Catch you on the rebound! EEng01:19, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Whew! Because for a minute there I was really afraid that he/she/it/they might get me blocked. That was a close one! Charmed life, it seems. EEng02:15, 1 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You may recall that Jeffrey Dahmer was killed during a fight in prison. So... What did Jeffrey Dahmer say just before the big fight in prison where he got killed?
Ready?
"Aah -- I used to eat guys like you for breakfast!"
Your recent editing history at Wikipedia:Sock puppetry shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.
Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. Bbb23 (talk) 12:51, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, look, another high-handed member of the "admin 3%" drops in to deliver an arrogant lecture on his backward understanding of how things are supposed to work, leavened by ominous threats. See [88]. EEng14:37, 10 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Another admin drops in to lecture and threaten
Original section heading by OP: "Conduct Concerns"
Recently I've noticed that a number of your comments this month have not met the expectations outlined in our civility and no personal attacks policies. Examples include referring to a user as a "prick" and "completely tonedeaf"multiple times, using images and captions to insult other users (1, 2), making personal attacks towards others, and general incivility on a policy discussion page. (e.g. "The last time [you] had to deal with [me]"? Was there another time you gave a high-handed lecture showing you have a backwards understanding of how things are supposed to be done? You don't "have" to deal with me, and as NE Ent so effectively explains below, you're arguing in support of those who have kne-jerk reverted in violation of PGBOLD, so perhaps you should leave the refereeing of minor squabbles over nonsubstantive changes to those with a better understanding of guidelines, policy, and just-plain-how-things-are-done.") Such comments are not appropriate and don't contribute to a constructive editing environment. Please stop with this behavior or your account may be blocked. Best, Mike V • Talk17:20, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Just to be clear for bystanders, all those links relate to my criticism of the bullshit behavior of admin Bbb23, who (surprise!) canvassed you to come to his aid. [89] Thanks, but I don't need any lectures on appropriate behavior. Bbb23's kneejerk reversion (without substantive comment) of multiple other editors' contributions, and subsequent refusal to participate in discussion, doesn't contribute to a constructive editing environment either, and it's healthy for someone to point that out; if Bbb23 doesn't like it, he should cut out that kind of behavior. I'm sure he's an effective checkuser and vandal fighter, and in the capacity I'm sure he has your respect, but out in the wide world of real editing (where one deals with actual other editors, not SPAs and vandals needing mass reversion [90]) his knowledge and behavior leave much to be desired. When an admin behaves as he has—papering over his own bad behavior with even more bad behavior, including high-handed block threats—most editors just knuckle under, but someone needs to bell the cat. Quoting myself [91] :
And let me be clear: I have no problem with 97% of admins, who do noble work in return for (generally) either no recognition or shitloads of grief, only occasionally punctuated by thanks. But the other 3%—whoa, boy, watch out!
The comment you left above is a continuation of the behavior that I've asked you to stop. I have blocked your account for 3 days. Mike V • Talk19:21, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wow -- just this morning I was groping for an example of unintentional self-parody, and here you've served one up on a silver platter. If you were shocked that I didn't bow and scrape in your presence, then you must have missed this userbox at the top of User:EEng:
Welcome to the 3%! Further to the quote I gave earlier (above), here's more [92]:
When users do something that administrators don't like, but when the users not only disagree but have the temerity to object to the sanctions levied against them by administrators, is this an unacceptable dissent against the powers-that-be that must, always, be quashed by any means necessary?
We say "The free encyclopedia that anyone can edit", not "The benevolent dictatorship encyclopedia that docile and compliant rule-followers can edit as long as they remember their place and are always properly respectful towards ADMINISTRATORS." So, please, if that's not the message you want to send, just let these userboxes go. And if you want to boot a user off the project for not being here to help build the encyclopedia, please do it for a more substantive reason than that the user refuses to say "Uncle" when confronted by admins. —Steve Summit (talk) 19:46, 6 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You blocked for a personal attack or harassment. Where is the personal attack? Saying behavior is bad is not the same thing as saying someone is bad. You should unblock.Sir Joseph(talk)19:43, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Criticism and commentary is fine, however it must be undertaken in a constructive manner. Mischaracterizing my comments by changing the header title to "Another admin drops in to lecture and threaten", claiming Bbb23 was acting with a "bullshit behavior", improperly suggesting that Bbb23 was canvassing me to engage in the conversation despite not engaging in the conversation, and using uncivil language, such as "lectures on appropriate behavior", "Bbb23's kneejerk reversion", and "high-handed block threats—most editors just knuckle under, but someone needs to bell the cat" is poor conduct towards other editors and is not permitted. EEng was warned that this behavior was not appropriate, but still continued. I don't feel the block should be lifted. Mike V • Talk20:03, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Many of us here at Wikipedia have gotten used to EEng's rather acerbic and, shall we say, direct style, and like him for it, and while I'm kind of nodding my head here, I continue to think EEng is a valuable addition to the Wikipedia community, who may be in need of lessons in ettiquete?--Tomwsulcer (talk) 20:20, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Holy Jesus. If "Bbb23's kneejerk reversion" is now part of a block rationale, block us all. What a shite block, a complete kneejerk reaction, utterly bogus, high-handed admin behaviour that needs to be called out, it's utter nonsense. And that, folks, is just the opening sentence of my memoirs of reading utter tripe on Wikipedia. Hardback due out just in time for Christmas. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:24, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Unblocked
User:Mike V, after your warning ("conduct concerns") on this page, EEng posted this in response. He also made a few innocuous edits on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Images, but I'm sure your block had nothing to do with those. You blocked for his response to your warning, and I don't think that was reasonable. The response wasn't very polite, indeed. It didn't defer to you as admin. The worst of it was that he changed your header, which is certainly inappropriate. But was it a disruptive edit, enough reason to block? No. Mainly it was an explanation of his criticisms of Bbb23. It didn't contain any personal attacks against Bbb23 or anybody else AFAICS. I've unblocked. Bishonen | talk21:44, 27 May 2016 (UTC).[reply]
Well thanks, Bishonen -- not because I care a whit about an enforced break per se, or about my block log (I got over that long ago), but because it's nice to know that there are at least some admins who will stand up to the 3% who think that being an admin entitles one to imperiousy demand that the rest of us show deference to their superior status, and cower and beg for mercy at their whim, whether what they're saying conforms to policy and guidelines or not. EEng01:09, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Telegrams from near and far
Dammit, I was logged out during all the fun! I'd like to propose two actions. First, I think EEng should be blocked again because when I clicked that link he gave to Bbb23's user contributions, it made my Firefox hang up, and we certainly cannot have that. Secondly, I propose that we tattoo [FBDB] across any available portion of EEng's anatomy. In one fish's opinion, both Bbb23 and Mike V are, on the whole, excellent administrators and very helpful members of the community. What happened here, however, was what seems to happen all too frequently on Wikipedia: people getting pissed off over stuff that would seem unimportant after a good night's sleep. Ironically, Mike V's initial warning was good advice. Ironically too, EEng is cognitively incapable of following that kind of advice (something to do with brain damage at Harvard), and believe me, I've tried many times to no avail. Unfortunately, when Mike V observed EEng's response, he overreacted. Bish, as always, and I do mean always, got it right. EEng was disrespectful but not disruptive. Group hug. Now where is that tattoo needle? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:45, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well how about re-imposing a block for having a too long talk page? Is that a blockable offense? Surely there should be some fingerwagging!--Tomwsulcer (talk) 23:49, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, tripping up Tryptofish's browser => BAD, EEng, bad bad bad, you should be tattooed bigtime for such horrors. (Me, too, for extending an already too-long talk page)--Tomwsulcer (talk) 00:00, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
About an hour ago I figured that, while blocked, I might as well spend some time doing what some of you desire so much, which is to trim this page. Unfortunately, a few trims into the project I realized that silly ol' Bishonen had unblocked me, so if it's still too long complain to her. EEng01:09, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Or block this EEng joker for being more of a truth-to-power curmudgeon than me. Horning in on my territory? This will not do. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 03:39, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You know, this talk page reminds me of a long beard:
Well, what else is new. My two cents is that EEng is a valuable addition to Wikipedia, if a bit difficult at times, although I've sometimes considered that maybe he should be blocked for having a too long talk page. Just kidding. Just saying' hello, EEng, hope you'll be back soon.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 19:45, 27 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for this -- it's perfect for an upcoming talk on Gage in pop culture. It's vaguely similar to a youtube video I grabbed about six years ago (now no longer posted, AFAICT) in which the US is metaphorically Gage (a stockbroker named "Phineas Geiger" in the vid, for some reason) and the WTC attack was the iron-bar-through-the-head turning America/Gage into an irritable, unpredictable, bullying, angry psychopath etc.
I have a feeling that Trump would actually like being compared to an iron rod. So is your viewspike detector a Geiger counter, or a Gage gauge? --Tryptofish (talk) 20:05, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. to David Eppstein: I did use it in my talk, to good effect, because it shows the extent that Gage can be invoked without introduction in at least some circles. (I also found some tweets in which people say things like, "I'm gonna go all Phineas Gage in a minute!") You may also have noticed I've used it at The Museums. EEng08:12, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, that's no laughing matter -- it happened to me! I was on a long bike ride and there was this string of ducklings (or goslings? who cares, they're all the same) lined up on the bike trail. I shooed them away and all of a sudden Big Mama Duck/Goose/Thing comes swooping down and pecks at my helmet. Scared me a little but it wasn't fatal as far as I remember. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:22, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Y92.482 Bicycle path as place of occurrence
V10.3 Person boarding or alighting a pedal cycle injured in collision with pedestrian or animal
For WP:BALANCE: The traditional account, that Jonah made his home in a fish's abdomen, has been publicly criticized by revisionist scholars.[1]— Preceding unsigned comment added by FourViolas (talk • contribs) 21:39, June 13, 2016
I have the weirdest, weirdest stalkers. It's you, the many stalkettes gathered here from all walks of life, each making his or her little dysfunction- or neurosis-revealing contribution, who make this talkpage what it is (whatever unspeakable thing that may be). EEng00:21, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The love goes right back atcha, Deryck Chan. I like your close—"with a reminder that editors – admin or not – should refrain from causing unnecessary antagonism in discussions, and from placing disproportionate emphasis on following processes"—with the understanding that the antagonism (mine, at least) was a direct result of that disproportionate emphasis on process over substance. Not sure you realize it, but I got blocked by one of those high-handed process-fixated admins over this—see [96]. And proud I am of it, too. EEng17:46, 13 June 2016 (UTC) P.S. have you visited The Museums lately?[reply]
No, I wasn't aware of your very short recent block until reading your reply above. It simply adds to the farce of the whole fiasco... Deryck C.21:12, 13 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, EEng. You got me twice because I did not know who F.I.M. was. I make that kind of typo now and then. Brain says one thing; fingers another. OK, now can you advise me of any other point? BTW, I found NOTNOT to be interesting too. Ping me back. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk}23:51, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's the bar through the brain [97]. Anyway, you were warned it was tasteless. The great thing about Harvard topics is there are always people wandering about saying droll things:
I apologize for reverting your edit over at "What Wikipedia is not" (diff [98]). I am an experienced editor, but forays into policy and guideline pages are new to me - so I admit I was being rigid. Having looked over your user page and talk page I see that you are a very experienced editor and that you know what you are doing. So, in the future I think I will do the same for any editor who edits guideline and policy pages - before I revert with an intention to save the Universe and Wikipedia.
I also noticed that you are immersed in humor; so I hope you like the title of this section. As an aside, perhaps editors should ask why is there no guideline page that describes "What Wikipedia is too!" (as an argument that counters "is not"). OK. I know that sounds a little nonsensical. Regards ---Steve Quinn (talk) 03:51, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You have nothing to apologize for at all. I don't always know what I'm doing, and your edit, following my edit, stimulated me to think things through afresh and make an even better edit. That's the way it's supposed to work, and Wikipedia at its best. Keep up the good work.
Well, I was a little apprehensive because of the amount of new material I'd developed, but I think it went well, other than the fact that my laptop crashed 2/3 of the way through so that I had to ad lib while it rebooted. The evening as a whole (i.e. including the other speakers) was certainly wonderful from my perspective. We ran maybe 75 minutes over and almost everyone stayed to the end, if that means anything.
The big announcement of the evening, and the unstated (until that night) reason for the whole thing, was that the very nice couple who had the daguerreotype all those years (without realizing it) have donated it to Harvard, so that it's now part of the Warren Museum collection along with the skull, tamping iron, life mask, etc. It's an amazing story -- what's the probability of that thing not only surviving all these years, but being identified? The mind boggles. EEng21:38, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's a WW2 army-surplus laptop which overheats every now and then. That problem seemed to have gone away after I upgraded to Windows 10 but -- just my luck -- it chose that moment to reassert itself. In a way it may have made for a better session, since we had Q&A during the reboot, and a lot of good questions were asked. EEng22:54, 2 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You may have noticed that accounts that bother me here often fall mysteriously silent soon afterward. Ever think about that? EEng02:47, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I am going to request that you strike your "Delusional smoke and mirrors" comment at the Ameen AfD. That was out of line. Reasonable minds can differ. Montanabw(talk)10:36, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
EEng, I have not seen the AFD mentioned here. However, at AFD:Octaviano Tenorio, you can see that Montanabw has engaged in a protracted exercise of smoke and mirrors, and is also demanding apologies. I don't know if the issues are connected. I wrote a looong reply on my talk[99] to Montanabw's complaint there. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 17:38, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(uninvolved) I'm going to suggest that persons actually interested in retaining the article spend their time adding citations and content to it, rather than arguing needlessly over other people's AfD comments. Softlavender (talk) 17:55, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I would wholeheartedly agree, and on that article BHG mentions, John Pack Lambert did so, my position is that his work was adequate, BHG's position is that it is not. I am tired of being repeated accused of "dishonesty" and a "protracted exercise of smoke and mirrors." My position is sincerely held and made in good faith -- on an article on a topic involving conservative white men instead of third-world progressive women, no less (I am trying to be fair in my assessments at AfD). The RfC is a slow-developing process and is raising a number of good discussions about the misapplication of WP:N. Frankly, I am finding this exhausting, but I cannot allow the ad hominem remarks of BHG, who I used to respect as an editor, to continue to the point that I permit myself to be bullied. She is crossing a line here and so did Eeng. Reasonable minds can differ, and even heatedly, but we can remain civil. Montanabw(talk)18:14, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
.... You're doing it again. Just stick to adding RS citations and content -- ignore the opposing comments of others. It's that simple. Softlavender (talk) 18:22, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My problem, Softlavender, is that I don't care enough about the JPL articles to work on them; I do care that I am being insulted and attacked. If others would stick to only their own cogent arguments and lay off trying to tell me that I am wrong, stupid, bad, dishonest, manipulative and whatever else they are throwing around, we would all be much better off. Montanabw(talk)22:05, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If you don't care enough to improve an article (or at least find and provide links to RS that provide significant coverage), then don't argue on AfD -- just place your !vote but don't add the AfD to your watchlist. If you get that bothered about being insulted/attacked/labeled, and if you react to such insults, then in my opinion you won't have a good time on Wikipedia; I've said as much before. Softlavender (talk) 22:45, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, talk page stalkers. I saw Montanabw's message early this morning and composed an appropriate apology. but rushed off without sending it. Here it is: Montanabw, I'm sorry you're delusional, even if sincerely so. Ecstatic hand waving can't make up for absent sources. I came up with the "smoke and mirrors" image entirely on my own, and the coincidence of plural editors doing so independently should give you pause. EEng18:41, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
EEng, I am so sorry that you can only respond to a reasonable request by WP:BAITING. You have now officially and directly called me "delusional" which is a personal attack and has crossed the WP:NPA line. It is unfortunate that you can only deal with disagreement by devolving into attacking the individual. Now I understand the kind of person you are. Thank you for clarifying your views so precisely. Montanabw(talk)22:05, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your delusions apparently extend even to the meaning of the word delusional. I doubt strongly that you understand, or indeed are capable of understanding, the kind of person I am. As I just suggested to you elsewhere, WP:STOPDIGGING. EEng22:16, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
With all due respect, delusional is commonly a reference to having a psychiatric condition wherein an individual has had a break with reality and is in need of psychaitric hospitalization. That is, for someone who is not suffering from that condition, a belittling insult. For someone who does suffer from that condition, it is cruel. Let's try for some civility. Montanabw(talk)22:58, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Montana, and I say this as someone with personal appreciation and respect for EEng and general admiration for his stalkers, trying to get him to apologize for incivility on his talk page is all but permitting yourself to be bullied. I suggest you stop trying to get blood from stones, and file a complaint if you need to or go do something nice with someone you love if you don't. FourViolas (talk) 23:13, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A delusion is a strongly held belief that is stubbornly resistant to being displaced by superior evidence. It's meant that for at least 400 years, and only comparatively recently took on the specific medical meaning you for some reason want to give it in reference to yourself. It is at this point that many editors in my position would issue a stay-off-my-talk-page "order", but I've never done that and expect I never will, because I fear no man or woman's criticism or denunciation—I'm secure in my own skin, you see, and happy to let observers judge for themselves. But please, for you own sake, stop embarrassing yourself and take FourViolas' excellent advice. Kid's got a good heart and is wise beyond his years. EEng00:44, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your insights, FourViolas. It is clear from the above comments that I am dealing with an abusive personality here and there is a time to stop beating my head against the wall. I have a number of other projects and AfD is most definitely in need of attention. I shall step out of this particular talk page discussion, with considerable disappointment. Montanabw(talk)00:49, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Exit Montanabw, stage right, draped magnificently in victimhood. Presently he or she is heard offstage, demanding apologies and retractions from numerous editors in rotation.EEng01:16, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've never understood the Wikipedia bent for requesting (or demanding) apologies. For an apology to be meaningful it must be freely given, at the initiative of the person who offers it. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:24, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's especially puzzling since it gives abusive personalities such as myself the opportunity to flagellate anew the hapless, innocent victim who sought only to offer the aggressor the chance to purify his soul via confession and contrition. EEng01:30, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth I think you're going a bit overboard on the mockery. (I've probably managed to piss off both you and Montanabw here, but what the hell, somebody has to say these things.) Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:13, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot imagine what you think you've done to offend or annoy me, and if someone comes repeatedly to my talk page begging to be called out as a fool, who am I to disappoint? EEng03:05, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not a chance -- see above in this thread, plus User:EEng#get the joke. If Atsme or Randy Kitty were somehow offended (and see elsewhere on that page where we'd been enjoying each other's company) they would have spoken up for themselves. What WP doesn't need is yet another tone-deaf, tsk-tsking scold poking her nose into others' friendly interactions. EEng03:38, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is truly unnecessary. Name-calling is a clear personal attack on another editor, the sort of thing that can get you blocked in a heartbeat by the first admin who spots it (and frankly, I'd support it, given your determination to double down on this). Your conversations at an AfD are not private and if you think you might be annoyed if someone else interjected their own remarks, perhaps an AfD is not for you. In any event, I urge you reconsider. There are always ways to tell someone precisely what you think of them without crossing the line. This was not the way. Msnicki (talk) 03:59, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Unnecessary perhaps, but not unwarranted, and there's no doubling down. I realize you mean well, but you obviously haven't absorbed what's going on here. Of course anyone's free to interject his or her own comments, but Nosy Parkers who get the wrong end of the WP:STICKin others' completely friendly interactions, because they apparently lack the capacity to understand them, and scold people for imagined offenses within a conversation in which they were not previously involved, are a particular pet peeve of mine. There's enough real friction at WP without someone inventing it where there is none. (And for the avoidance of doubt, I'm not talking about you here.) EEng05:27, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
At least it's not another "Barnstar of Good Humor"...
The Yuge Barnstar
That's one hell of a user page you've got there. I tried to print a copy out (in case my internet goes down), but I don't have the required 63 pages to get the whole thing. I'm off to the store in the morning to buy paper. Anyhow, here's a Trump-sized reward for having a liberal sense of humor. Colonel Wilhelm Klink (Complaints|Mistakes) 23:02, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If you're talking about User:EEng, don't you mean "Trump's ego"? If you mean the little star at the left of the box there, don't you mean "Trump's genitals"? EEng00:28, 13 August 2016 (UTC) Colonel Wilhelm Klink, I stole some of your images,[reply]
I am the only one here to receive an email (via "Email this user") from Hillbillyholiday reading something like --
Dear Mr Eeng,
Just came across our "eeng" article what was recently updated by User:Colonel Wilhelm Klink. Not sure if it's owt to do with you but sounds a bit like a HOECS to me! Don't forget, online pedophiles can actually make your keyboard release toxic vapors that make you suggestible ... [youtube link redacted]
This email was sent by user "Hillbillyholiday" on the English Wikipedia to user "EEng". It has been automatically delivered and the Wikimedia Foundation cannot be held responsible for its contents.
Oh, Lord, I walked right into that one. But please, no more such emails. I almost reported you at ANI as a compromised account. EEng05:14, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Toxic vapors? You smell like hammers? Fuck this, I'm going to bed."
I'll respond to this now; I saw it here yesterday, and I still don't understand it. I get the whole "Klink is a stalker" thing, but the rest is just a bit too far out there for me, and, given the nature of this conversation ("online pedophiles", "compromised account", "yuck"), it can't be pleasant. Ignorance is bliss, right? Colonel Wilhelm Klink (Complaints|Mistakes) 15:02, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I still don't know what all this is. I think you got dragged into it only because you happened to be near the top of the page's edit history. I hope this won't cause you to drop your membership in my glittering salon of talk page stalkers. EEng16:38, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't think any of it had anything to do with the good Colonel. And when the proprietor said "Oh, Lord, I walked right into that one", I took it to mean that it was a joke that EEng understood and I didn't. So I did some searching online, and the sentences in question come from an episode of some British comedy TV show. (I have no idea why any of it is considered funny. I suppose that it just means that the sun has set on the British Empire. At least it made me feel slightly better about TV in the US.) The episode was very controversial, because it centered on jokes about pedophilia. And that is why I said "yuck". (At least I am happy to see from the image here that a certain political candidate is reading about it.) --Tryptofish (talk) 22:21, 14 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I only understood in the sense that by that point I'd realized ME123 was involved, which explains anything. EEng01:18, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Aha! Then you are so much more perceptive than is WMF's software for identifying IP addresses. Good for you! OK, so here is what is going on. The entire population of Wales (the nation of Welchers, not the co-founder of that website) has been viewing your talk page, and thus, the large spike in viewings. These people have four national characteristics: a tendency to cough up hairballs when they speak, hillbilly-like tendencies, inexplicable sense of humor (and it's not worth bothering to try), and warm feet. That explains everything (although I admit that my explanation requires explanation). In any case, the good Colonel has nothing to be worried about. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:17, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In his edit summary, our hillbilly friend calls me a "butty boy". So, after posting about pedophilia, he calls me a "boy" and refers to my posterior. Wow! Don't they have farm animals in Wales? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:47, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's unusual... I had always considered Wales to be one of the more grounded countries. Perhaps being so close to England is finally taking its toll. And, oddly enough, I received a pamphlet in the mail today urging me to -- get this -- "save the whales." (!) Have I done anything to piss off British conservationists? Colonel Wilhelm Klink (Complaints|Mistakes) 21:29, 15 August 2016 (UTC) That was never here. Please excuse my ignorance. Colonel Wilhelm Klink (Complaints|Mistakes) 22:02, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
EEng to the rescue! I saw what you just did, and I thank you for your support. I have been very remiss in not communicating with you, and hope to remedy that very soon. Hertz1888 (talk) 23:11, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A kitten for you!
For your assistance with the recent research mess that I bought to ANI.
It's not a technical edit -- it's just a gnome swooping in to "improve" an article by doing something which has no effect on what the reader sees, merely changing one form of valid markup to another form which the gnome prefers, or which he/she mistakenly thinks is the "right" form because that's what he/she happens to be more familiar with. See WP:MOS: "Style and formatting should be consistent within an article, though not necessarily throughout Wikipedia. Where more than one style is acceptable under the Manual of Style, editors should not change an article from one of those styles to another without a good reason." The watchlists of those who maintain a given article are gummed up by, and their time is wasted in reviewing, such worthless busywork. EEng23:41, 18 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Revert of edits adding country into US place articles
Dear EEng, I see that you have made several reverts of edits of mine such as this one with the comment "...we don't qualify US states as being in the US -- WP:USPLACE". I believe that you are in error. The page you linked to does not relate to content but the convention of US place names as article titles, the opening paragraph of the guide says "...This page describes conventions for determining the titles of Wikipedia articles on places" (my underlining). I have been editing a long time, although not so much recently, and it was my impression that putting the name of the nation into an article lede is promoted since it helps search engines. I would be grateful if you would either revert your edits of mine or provide me with a guideline (or rule) which indicates that US articles, or articles generally, should not have the nations name in the article text. As you have reverted a number of good faith edits by me, it is for you to prove that your edits are in line with current WP practice. I shall watch your page for your reply. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:15, 25 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've already answered you on this twice. First was in a thread you yourself opened [102], where you'll notice multiple editors joined in explaining why what you're doing is inappropriate. Second was in the edit summaries I used (e.g. [103]) in reverting your changes. I might also add that I only had to revert some of your changes, as the rest were reverted by various other editors before I got there. EEng23:15, 25 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I will respond there - suffice to say that a guideline relating to titles has no effect upon content; it is why the title of the guide refers only to that. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:42, 26 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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[Leaving this because of what looks like mass WP:ASPERSION-casting and mischaracterization of the views of everyone on the other side of style dispute, made by you in a extraneous WP:POINTy image sidebar at WT:MOS earlier today, and which you defended as appropriate at my talk page after why it is not appropriate was explained. You last received a WP:ARBATC DS notice in 2014, and were not engaging in things like this in the year after that notice, so maybe this will have the desired effect. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:17, 1 September 2016 (UTC)][reply]
To be fair, what I was saying was that some people seem to think that articles should be dry as bones in the desert [104], which he says is a personal attack. Then this morning I got pinged into this maelstrom [105]. EEng04:02, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say it was a personal attack, its a straw man psychological projection and mischaracterization of everyone who disagrees with you about decorative quotation boxes, to character-assassinate them has holding a stupid/crazy position that they do not in fact hold, and thus a civility problem and, as a big extraneous sidebox jammed into an RfC discussion it probably qualifies as WP:POINT disruption. You should have had the grace to remove it when it was objected to. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 07:14, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's not character assassination (!) to say that some (not "all") editors think that articles are supposed to be dry as dust. Lots of editors express such a view, asserting that dry, flat, cold = something they call "professional". Please now have the last word in this completely insane discussion on this trivial matter. EEng13:54, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
COI
Thanks for pointing that out. I was remembering from my days on OTRS, fielding demands from academics to cite their own work. It's pretty clear that self-citation is a bad idea, and wide-scale self-citation doubly so. Guy (Help!) 14:04, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, I'm RexxS. I noticed that you made a comment on the page Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style that didn't seem very civil, so it has been removed. Wikipedia is built on collaboration, so it's one of our core principles to interact with one another in a polite and respectful manner. If you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page.
If you're not interested in discussion, then please keep your ad homiems to yourselfRexxS (talk) 20:45, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Saying "RexxS is simply behind the times -- see note at..." and linking to a recent (July 2016) guideline change which you apparently missed [106] isn't a personal attack. You're being ridiculous. (And we'll leave it to others here to judge whether, in this context, saying "You're being ridiculous" is a personal attack.) EEng21:16, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Blatant
What is your strategy for archiving your talk page, noticeably your third archive looks much greater than the other two, I need your guidance. Cards84664 (talk) 03:00, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My third archive has size zero. Do the others have negative size? If you're looking for any kind of guidance from me, you must be desperate. EEng03:32, 5 September 2016 (UTC)p[reply]
Edits don't need sources; information one adds needs sources. I didn't add the information, just copyedited the text to say the same thing a different way. EEng08:27, 9 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, "the information you're adding" needs to be verified, per WP:BURDEN. Otherwise, it will likely be challenged and/or removed. If you've just moved info already sourced, please copy the source(s) to that section as well, to avoid confusion. X4n6 (talk) 08:38, 9 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If the source(s) for this information is/are listed elsewhere in the article, please also attach them here, or the edit risks being removed. X4n6 (talk) 09:06, 9 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I take it, by your failure to respond to my question, that you've realized that I added no new information. Since I didn't add it, I have no idea where it might be sourced. Why are you still wasting our time on this? Before you get any bright ideas, BTW, I remind you that BURDEN sets the standard for removal of unsourced material (outside BLPs) as being that you genuinely believe no source exists -- not just because you can challenge it. So please don't get any WP:POINTY ideas. EEng09:16, 9 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What you should have gleaned from my response, is that I had no interest in playing games. As you're clearly not interested in claiming ownership of this unsourced material - and since you appear equally disinterested in providing appropriate sources for it, I've removed it per WP:VERIFY. X4n6 (talk) 09:38, 9 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
And I've restored it. There's no reason for me to "take ownership" of this information since, as now both I and another editor have told you, I didn't add it. And VERIFY doesn't require, in order that material remain in an article, that it be verified, merely that it be verifiable. Did you make even the most basic attempt to find a source before engaging me in this nonsense waste of time? The fact that you can remove something unsourced doesn't mean you should, especially material this new and duly tagged [citation needed]. EEng10:01, 9 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.
Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.X4n6 (talk) 10:14, 9 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I just looked at your page for the first time. The Trump stuff. Hilarious? Not really. It's childish and irresponsible. This is not the place to do this. Try to imagine doing the same thing, but with Hillary Clinton on your page. Doctalk09:37, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There's a limit, in size and scope, when it comes to user pages. It's a little out of hand. I'm not running to report it, just noting it. Doctalk10:00, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Everything on my user page is there either to increase other editors' pleasure in contributing (by providing modest amusement they can enjoy during breaks from editing) or to assist them in becoming more effective editors (by illustrating various aspects of Wikipedia as a social environment e.g. [107]). Democratic figures are featured as well as Republican (e.g. [108]) though unfortunately those opportunities don't arise very often, because e.g. Clinton and Obama just aren't as amusing. EEng10:29, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's cute! There's no question that you have a good sense of humor. For me, the thing is really this: why put your politics on display here? What purpose does it actually serve? Who really gives a crap if you're a liberal or a conservative? It's an allegedly unbiased encyclopedia. We should try to strive for neutrality. You're just showing your hand. I would take any edit you make in the political realm with a grain of salt as biased, based on your user page. Jus' sayin'. Doctalk10:36, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Granting for a moment, for the sake of argument, that I am indeed "showing my hand" via my user page, then I guess that would act as a sort of COI disclosure should I edit any political articles (which I don't). Editors aren't personally required to have a neutral point of view—only articles are. EEng10:45, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. What I'm really getting at, in a roundabout way, is that you can't use your user page to store a ton of... "funny stuff" that is really not related to Wikipedia. That's what private webpages are for. MySpace, etc. The servers are not here to host comedy pages. Doctalk10:50, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Again, as seen numerous places on my talk page (e.g. here), many editors find my userpage a refreshing place to take a break from editing or (e.g. here) to find "medicine against chronic wikidespair". Certainly that's good for the project. Thank you for the complement on my sense of humor, though not everyone agrees with you on that (image at right). EEng11:05, 10 September 2016 (UTC) I'm afraid I have to go back to bed now -- midnight snack -- but please visit The Museums frequently.[reply]
Doc, you're out of line. While I'm not necessarily a fan of the user's talk page, you've gone too far. First, you're being contradictory when you say you're not running to report the user's page - then you unilaterally choose to censor it? Second, you're also being hypocritical, as one of your own userboxes identifies you as a Republican. Why is it fine for you to "show your hand" but not this user? As for your claims of "defamation?" No wikilawyering please. Parody is protected speech. Per CENSOR, even on this project. So if there is a COI here, it's in your removal of content on another user's page. You know better. You need to self-revert - and if you don't, the user would be justified in reporting you. As the line goes, if it offends you - don't look. X4n6 (talk) 11:49, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely not. Images for Trump's family are listed on the pages they are used on Wikipedia. We don't use those images on a user's page under "Gallery of Creepy, Fawning Enablers". It's completely against BLP. Doctalk11:58, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
First, personal pages are not BLPs. So I'm not seeing any validity to that argument. Second, again, parody is protected speech. Third, you're editing another user's page. Since you can spout policy vios, you're well aware of the many that violates, so don't make me list them. Fourth, you have a COI, so you're really not in the best position to complain. You just look like a pov pusher yourself. But again, if you are offended - or just humor challenged - I'd suggest you just not engage further with this user or his page. But if you are too vexed, vigilantism is still not the answer. It all too often boomerangs. Take it to the proper forum. Where - as you probably already now - you'll likely get told exactly what I've already said. And risk possible sanctions yourself for vandalizing a user's personal page. But the choice is yours. X4n6 (talk) 12:21, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
OK, you two, thank you for your comments. In the morning I'll adjust the content to address Doc's concerns. After all, the kids (though they've chosen to put themselves into the spotlight) can't help who their father is, and the wife probably didn't know what she was getting herself into. Now, may I get back to sleep, please? EEng12:06, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Meh. Ya know, if you put a little effort into it instead of just straight-up deriding, it could actually be amusingly clever and inoffensive. Think SNL humor. "Gallery of Creepy, Fawning Enablers" is desperate. Work on the material and get back to me. Doctalk12:19, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Seems to me that if we start prohibiting editors from expressing their political opinions on their user pages, there are an awful lot of user boxes that will have to be removed. And as for the dividing line between acceptable commentary, and commentary that "goes too far", there is no practical way to establish a consensus as to where that line would be. A user page is not an article for our readers. If one does not like a particular user page, then don't look at it. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:08, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand - what's all the fuss about Pole Mics? They are very useful for recording the sounds of silly hats, silly skirts, and scottish monster shepherds, and all from a safe distance.
Absolute stupidity to equate Trump with Nazism. The Nazis actually murdered millions of people!!! Alarmist types that equate a potential Trump presidency to Nazism?! Sheer lunacy. Doctalk08:14, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Nonetheless, if you read a good history covering the rise of Hitler during the period 1930-1933 (e.g., Ian Kershaw's two-volume bio) there are some very interesting parallels. I don't think Trump is plotting mass extermination. But the electoral tactics and the appeal of authoritarianism to disaffected segments of the populace, "restore our former glory" type rhetoric, laying the blame for national decline on certain ethnicgroups and the like are strikingly similar. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:43, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, to be fair to Hitler I don't recall that he was plotting mass extermination when he first came to power either. In the present case, time will tell. EEng16:44, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately you don't seem to have read Godwin's recent article [110] cited by the very sentence you link, nor the Peter Bergen piece (cited with approval, in turn, by Godwin in that same article) which concludes that Trump is indeed a fascist, with only the exception that he's not (yet) openly calling for violence. Godwin's Law warns against glib comparisons to fascism, not all such comparisons.
That otherwise seemingly intelligent persons continue to deny what is so obviously going on here is the reason I opened my very first post on Trump with Huxley: "That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach."
Now, if I may, I would like to exercise the Museum Curator's privilege by asking that this debate be halted. It's not in keeping with the spirit of fun I like to promote here. EEng16:44, 17 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
At 0028 hours local time, I mentioned [111] that "My user page is meant to be a source of amusement for editors taking a break from the humdrum workaday cares of editing. But I don't want debate on non-Wiki partisan matters breaking out, because that too often leaves editors with high blood pressure instead of a feeling of relaxation and refreshment." Within hours...
...the following post was transferred here from another page...
I really didn’t see your "final answer"[112] until today. I was amused, but not in a good way. You’ve been here since 2006, and yet you claim to know more than me about several things. Here’s a few where you’re totally dead wrong:
WP:BLP, very first sentence: "Editors must take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page.” Any page actually applies to what you deem to be “personal pages”.
Parody is protected speech… by whom? Wikipedia? This is a private website, not a government. BLP policy is normally strictly enforced here over "parody".
Editing another user’s page does not violate "many" policies. I don’t even know what that means. What policies? Meh...
You have zero evidence of me having a COI on anything. On what are you basing that accusation? It’s one of several personal attacks you used to dismiss legitimate concerns. I'm also a “POV pusher”, “vigilante”, and a “vandal”. The vandalism charge is just truly ignorant of policy. Very sad for an editor of your tenure. Why did EEng not consider it vandalism? Because... it wasn't! Amazing...
So, this is really not an insult; please don’t take it as one. In the future: know what the hell you’re talking about before you chastise an editor who’s been around as long as me. I predict that you'll just erase this thread with a nasty edit summary and not even take any consideration to what I wrote. Doctalk06:50, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
...and the fireworks began...
As you can see, Doc, I've moved your post above from my talk page, where you saw fit to leave it - a full ten days after this was discussed - to where it belongs. Here. If anywhere.
Beyond that, my own responses will be of appropriate length, even though, so many days later, I truly care less than a tinker's damn. But first, an admonition: kindly stay the hell off my talk page with this kind of crap. Any need you had for a 10 day old rebuttal belonged here. Or just screamed at the top of your lungs inside your bathroom. As someone who has "been around as long as me" - you really should know that. However, it must also be noted that, the only likely reason you posted on my talk, was so other editors, like Patient Zero, who reverted you; or Tryptofish, whose advice, similar to mine, you also ignored; or Martinevans123 and Robevans123, who were amused by your woeful misuse of polemic; or Colonel Wilhelm Klink, Shock Brigade Harvester Boris and David Eppstein, who challenged your pov, as well as your grasp of logic. But so much for all that now. Oops. Still, since frankly, I can't resist a point-by-point refutation of yourpolemic:
1) This project grants "considerable leeway" on userpages, per WP:USERPAGE. Also, your cherry-picked, yet painful misinterpretation of WP:BLP is pretty transparently wrong - as the very next sentence following your quote is: "We must get the article right. You've "been around" long enough to know that userpages are not articles.
""At the heart of the First Amendment is the recognition of the fundamental importance of the free flow of ideas and opinions on matters of public interest and concern. The freedom to speak one's mind is not only an aspect of individual liberty – and thus a good unto itself – but also is essential to the common quest for truth and the vitality of society as a whole. We have therefore been particularly vigilant to ensure that individual expressions of ideas remain free from governmentally imposed sanctions.
...Here it is clear that respondent Falwell is a "public figure" for purposes of First Amendment law. The jury found against respondent on his libel claim when it decided that the Hustler ad parody could not "reasonably be understood as describing actual facts about [respondent] or actual events in which [he] participated." App. to Pet. for Cert. C1. The Court of Appeals interpreted the jury's finding to be that the ad parody "was not reasonably believable," 797 F.2d, at 1278, and in accordance with our custom we accept this finding. Respondent is thus relegated to his claim for damages awarded by the jury for the intentional infliction of emotional distress by "outrageous" conduct. But for reasons heretofore stated this claim cannot, consistently with the First Amendment, form a basis for the award of damages when the conduct in question is the publication of a caricature such as the ad parody involved here."[113]
So, put both politely and succinctly: your claims of injury, defamation, or any other potential liability to this project, from the clearly intended parody posted on a userpage - are all crap. With that, I'll also advise you - perhaps preemptively - that the Wikimedia Foundation is an American non-profit organization; and as such, is subject to all the applicable laws of the United States.
4) "You have zero evidence of me having a COI on anything." Really? Besides your strident responses here, here, here, here and even when politely asked to stop, your response here, before finally relenting here. But no... this edit, was a purely non-partisan edit and in now way a COI, coming from a totally non-pov pushing user whose own political biases are impossible to read - except for the years that you've felt the need to self identify as a Republican on your userpage. Or the comments you've made here. So tell me again the one about the "zero evidence" I have.
a) Stay the hell off my talk page with this waste of my time. Especially when I was right;
b) In the future, know what the hell you're talking about;
c) Stop pov pushing anywhere on this project; and
d) Before you try to throw weight around that you don't have - you should know that someone who really had "been around", would have been smart enough to check the Users list first - to know with whom they were talking. So you've been "around" over "eight years?" Want a cookie? I've been around over ten.
Your WP:LASTWORD smarm can go suck an egg. The disussion was already way over! I wrote that on your page... 3 days ago. We've moved on. You're certainly not convincing me, or anyone else, of anything with your addition. Piss. Off. Doctalk12:46, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wow. Is it OK come to somone else's Talk Page, to edit war and tell a third party to piss off? Or does the careful use of that piss period mean it's not a real insult? I guess it's pretty much up to EEng what he wants on his Talk Page. Much like his User Page, really. By the way, I was fully convinced. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:50, 23 September 2016 (UTC) p.s. sorry if I've "trumped" your WP:LASTWORD last word.[reply]
Please be aware that this process can take up to ten years and you should avoid making any changes to the page during this period. The serf is currently preparing the vellum (he's chasing a calf, but that's a typical Saturday night on the Levels), while the chief scribe is preparing his quills, the milliner-in-chief is measuring everyone's head, and the proof-reader in waiting is searching for his rubbers erasers. Everyone is keeping a safe distance from the tanner-in-residence.
Seriously. The guy can't even get the grammar right when giving you a warning about MOS sanctions. It's either irony or a paradox or something that I haven't thought of yet. In any case, I've unsuitably indented my reply a la EEng, just to ensure you know I'm replying at you innit an' not dat uvver fella. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:46, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
PBS, you have no idea what you're talking about, and I've responded in detail on your talk page [114]. (Connoisseurs of forum-shopping Wikilawyers taking advantage of the credulity of random admins may want to follow that link.)EEng21:43, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Recently, you have more than once altered text on a talk page posted by another editor against their objections. You justify that by stating "Unfortunately there was no way for me to restore the edits by other editors that J-G removed without also removing his comments;" removing others comments against the objections of others is a breach of WP:TALK. After their comments were restored, if you though that such a restoration was unjustified, you should have asked an uninvolved administrator (either directly or indirectly via WP:ANI) to intervene. Edit warring over the content of article pages is disruptive, edit warring over the content of talk pages is unnecessary and disruptive (hence the rules over not altering other people's comments). Alter another person's comments on a talk page (other than those small changes sanctioned by WP:TALK talk) and I will take administrative actions. Is that clear? -- PBS (talk) 06:12, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, looks like we've got another live one with a bad case of WP:IDHT on top. What has happened to Wikipedia to make such people the ones we give the mop to? And since when has admin privilege been required to take obvious corrective actions that aren't actually uses of that privilege? —David Eppstein (talk) 06:32, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
For the avoidance of doubt, PBS (since you have trouble following talk page discussions) D.E. is talking about you. Is that clear? EEng06:47, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
PBS, your failure to even acknowledge the unusually strong condemnation by one of your fellow admins, above, of your behavior in this matter adds to the accumulating evidence calling into question your fitness as an administrator. EEng03:22, 24 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted your [(user:Jayaguru-Shishya)] comments because, in the same edit in which you made them, you deleted and refactored others' comments. One notices PBS has stopped defending you. Get a clue. EEng15:31, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I never "defened" user:Jayaguru-Shishya. So stating that I have "stopped defending [user:Jayaguru-Shishya[" not accurate. I reminded you of my previous warning of MOS descretionary sanctions (User talk:EEng/Archive_2#Notification of Arbcom MOS discretionary sanctions) and under those sanctions I placed a specific restriction on you not to delete other editors tal page comments. I did this because you seem unable to understand that deleteing other's comments against another editors objections is a direct breach of WP:TALK. I have responded now because you seem to be self justifying you breach of WP:TALK.
Despite you suggestions that an involved administrator ought to be an arbitrator in this issue, it is univolved admins, or as you put it "Drive-by admin[s]", that are preferred for such interventions (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
If it makes you happy to get the last word in then you most likely will, but unless you behave in such a way as to warrent my intervention under the MOS discressionary sanction, I so not intend to engage in further correspondence over this issue. -- PBS (talk) 06:32, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, look, the drive-by admin pops up to threaten and lecture again!
It's somehow not surprising that you and your little pal J-G are still whining about this two weeks later, because you're both clueless.
Uninvolved is fine; drive-by, which is what you are, is someone who doesn't bother to understand (or, as is increasingly obvious in your case, is incapable of understanding) what's really going on before issuing pompous lectures and threats. For the nth time, it was J-G who removed and refactored others' comments, not me; I undid his removal and refactoring of others' comments, and for that you're giving me grief, because you're clueless.
I repeat what your fellow admin, David Eppstein, said about your actions in this matter: "What has happened to Wikipedia to make such people the ones we give the mop to?" i.e. you're unfit to be an admin, because you're clueless. I notice you became an admin in the old days when that status was essentially anyone's for the asking. It's unfortunate that the voices in the wilderness pointing to your "consistently poor judgement" and predicting that you would "certainty abuse adminship" weren't heeded.
When you're excited either your spelling or your typing deteriorate; slowing down might lead to improvement in those areas, and possibly in your thinking processes (though I can't be sure of that). I'm glad to hear that you plan to stop embarrassing yourself by posting further here, and will (I guess) just go do whatever it is you do when you're not encouraging Wikilawyers and wasting the time of editors who know what they're doing. EEng07:38, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Favor
Hey @EEng: this may seem like a lot to ask, with us not being acquainted and all, but because you've been active at DYK, and have a reputation as a good copy editor, I thought what's the harm in asking?
I recently made a DYK nomination for an article I made, Timber Sycamore. I'm pretty excited about the article because I was surprised, when I began reading about the program, that I'd never heard of it before.
Do you think I could prevail upon you to perhaps review my article, and the nomination?
Just as a quick FYI, every statement **should** be attributed either to the next citation that follows, or occasionally, to the one preceding. Let me know what you think! -Darouet (talk) 14:18, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The Great and Powerful Oz has decided to grant your puny request! However, DYK rules forbid the same person from both copyediting (or doing any significant editing) and also acting as reviewer. So which do you want? Personally I'd rather copyedit, as I haven't done much reviewing for a while and I'm rusty at it. EEng14:29, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'm trying to amend and copy edit things now, in advance of any review, but if you'd prefer copyediting, I'd appreciate your eyes, oh great one ;) -Darouet (talk) 14:35, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
[FBDB]Use title case when referencing The Wizard, insect! And it's 'O' not 'Oh' i.e. "O Great One". You are obviously in desperate need of a good copyeditor! The Great and Powerful Oz will attend to the task before the end of one of your puny Earth days! EEng14:44, 22 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Haha, please do not end my days O Great One: they are so puny! Why trouble Yourself to even consider them? My days are as grass, they pass like the wind; the storms hurl me from my place, and the tempests steal me away in the night!
I really don't want my talk page to become a debate venue, but I can hardly imagine what we're supposed to conclude from the fact that you've referred us to a New York Post piece by John Podhoretz for what you apparently think is a serious purpose. EEng07:15, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My user page is meant to be a source of amusement for editors taking a break from the humdrum workaday cares of editing. But I don't want debate on non-Wiki partisan matters breaking out, because that too often leaves editors with high blood pressure instead of a feeling of relaxation and refreshment. (Wiki-related matters provide enough of the former.) Keeping that in mind, you are a welcome and valued member of my glittering salon of talk page stalkers. EEng07:27, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking of debates: wow! It's already here! Monday, 9PM EST! None of us know what to expect, really. Just a crazy ride we're all on. Cheers :> Doctalk07:36, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It can now be revealed that I'm the Trump stand-in Clinton's been using in preparing for the debate, so in fact I can say with confidence that I do know what will happen. Unfortunately I can't tell you. Sorry. EEng07:49, 23 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.
Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. X4n6 (talk) 09:40, 1 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Re: [116]. Firstly, it's really poor form to roll back a whole edit, taking it with other improvements and corrections. If you think a particular sentence violates policy, you should just do something about that.
Secondly, no, looking up an address, and subtracting the date of construction of the bridge from his birthdate is not OR, it's providing context to the reader. That the construction of the bridge began when he was about 7 is trivial maths. That the bridge's on-ramp passes in front of 55 Frankfort St is easily verified. The previous version of the page was factually incorrect (it stated he was born at the location of one end of the bridge, when the bridge didn't exist yet). Please be more careful with your OR sledgehammer. Stevage07:11, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Stevage, I've enjoyed working with you on the article, so please let's not fall out over something like this.
I don't believe my undo (which you link above) removed anything other than the statement that When he was just seven, the construction of the Brooklyn Bridge began, its northwestern on-ramp passing directly in front of the family home; but if it did, that must be very subtly hidden in the diff. For my peace of mind, can you give me an example of one of the "other improvements and corrections" that my edit removed?
(so that, presumably, we're supposed to click on the map and conclude that his birthplace address is opposite a Brooklyn Bridge ramp) is absolutely OR. How was the address converted into coordinates? How do we know the street wasn't renumbered at some point (which happens more often than people realize)? How do we know when, during the seven years it took to build the bridge, the ramps were constructed? Was he living there the whole time from his birth until the ramps were constructed?
Since, for whatever reason, you've brought this issue here to my talk page, I'm going to invite members of my glittering salon of talk page stalkers to check out the diff you linked and opine on the OR question. In the meantime, I ask that you reconsider and remove this material yourself. It can't be passed for DYK with this issue outstanding. EEng07:52, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I just learned that we have a page on Radiometric dating. It strikes me as a less-than-ideal way to meet romantic partners. (Although, come to think of it, one might meet someone who is hot.) The curator could perhaps do something with that. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:20, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry about that. As you can see from the article history, I started reviewing the article at 21:03 UTC, but when I tried to post my review 20 minutes later, you had just started yours. Hope I didn't cause you to lose too much time over it. Best, Yoninah (talk) 21:58, 8 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You can't include the entire lyrics of a Randy Newman song. Copyright reasons, you know. Take it down; maybe include a small excerpt. DS (talk) 16:12, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not that Randy Newman would mind, of course, but you're right – rules are rules, and President Trump is definitely going to be a strong enforcer of intellectual property law, he being such an intellectual himself. Personally, I'm gratified you read far enough to notice. EEng16:34, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"You atheist! Clearly, it should 1 AD, to reflect common usage!"
"I think, if we use AD, we should prefix it, while CE should always be suffixed. With a grave accent over the E.""
"How about we use (year) to end the religious issues?""
"That's not common usage!! But it's common style on Wikipedia! But it's not—it's—uh—" Editor's head explodes from the contradiction, causing mild confusion as to whether (Gregorian year) or (Julian year) would be more appropriate.
"That previous RfC simply does not show enough consensus. I will take legal action against the Year Name Cabal!!"
...until the discussion sinks to the bottom of Graham's hierarchy of disagreement and everyone agrees on the eminently sensible [insert your favorite disambiguation here].
CaroleHenson, I just wanted to thank you for your hard work on the article, and encourage you to keep it up despite the obvious difficulties. It's important. EEng03:04, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, That is so very nice of you! Your second comment is lovely and very much appreciated! I do get frustrated sometimes, but mostly I think it's a really good group working on the article, and the individual efforts come together in a lovely synergistic way. It's so nice to see how many editors, like you, make great edits and keep the article in great shape! (I hope that makes sense, I'm getting a little punchy!)--CaroleHenson(talk)03:38, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"This candidate makes personal attacks at RfA when they ...." "Wrong!" ... "...leads to an incivil environment..." "Wrong!" "...admin numbers are dropping...." "Wrong!"
Though I love the bit where he refers to Goebbels as "Skeletor", I actually think this [118] is better. Just to be clear (as you know, but for the benefit of eavesdroppers) I would never seriously compare anyone to Hitler -- that would be a BLP violation. EEng01:50, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Your comments at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#MOS:LQ is self-contradictory are counter to existing consensus as to the existence of the MOS:LQ guideline. Please seek a new consensus separately if you like, but please refrain from further off-topic disruption of that discussion (arguing against consensus is disruption by definition). The title of the thread is "MOS:LQ is self-contradictory", not "Should MOS:LQ exist?" Thanks. ―Mandruss☎07:35, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
For those playing along at home, Mandruss is talking about this comment [119]. Mandruss, I have great respect for you as an editor, but on this point you're being ridiculous, particularly your idea that "arguing against consensus is disruption by definition". Consensus can change (though I don't hold out much hope in this case) and if it does, it's because someone spoke up and said something most everyone else disagreed with. EEng08:06, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, the respect is generally mutual (and I like your humor when good-natured and in a situation where it's not in the way of important discussion). Also this comment.[120] Yes consensus can change, but there are better ways to seek it than to make off-topic comments and see who supports you there. Try to imagine a scenario where your comments sparked an outpouring of MOS:LQ opposition in that thread which resulted in the elimination of that guideline. I think that's a highly implausible scenario. That kind of thing needs the structure provided by the RfC format. ―Mandruss☎08:23, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
<extends hand to shake> No hard feelings, pal. LQ is, unfortunately (not that it matters all that much) here to stay, so there's no point in an RfC or whathaveyou. However, I think there's benefit to the occasional subversive aside now and then, just to remind others who may think they're alone that in fact they're not the only ones who have avoided being absorbed into the Borg. EEng09:09, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If 30 other editors each invoke their right to a subversive aside (why should you be special?), and that collectively makes it very difficult to make progress on the thread topic, I think that would reveal a flaw in your approach. Maybe that's premature. ―Mandruss☎11:07, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Subversion: Mandruss asked about EEng's ejaculations at WT:MOS, but maybe they were premature. But don't worry, EEng's hands are just fine, I guarantee you that! --Tryptofish (talk) 14:24, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There's a good reason why Wikipedians(,) at large(,) [see?] exhibit a strong bias in favour of LQ: As you, EEng, have apparently already intuited or even implied, Wikipedia attracts the sort of people who have internalised the fact that – at least in many contexts highly relevant to them – punctuation matters. And who are simply prone to arguing about (what some would call) "stupid, pointless crap". (Or, alternatively, "stupid, pointless crap.") That said, given that LQ has already commonly been called thus since at least the 1960s and had already been in use before that, your assertion that it "was devised by people who mistake English punctuation for a programming language" is almost certainly incorrect. (Interestingly, a reader's comment at the linked Slate article cites an unnamed source alleging that the American convention arose due to a practical consideration in the age of the metal movable-type printing press!) --Florian Blaschke (talk) 12:51, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Tommy Tucker (squirrel)
Allergy warning!
This talk page may contain nuts, nuts, jokes about nuts, and nuts who converse with a nut who often concerns himself with nuts. Be aware that epinephrine shots are unavailable, although, judging by this page's content, shots of alcohol are quite bountiful, as are those ever endearing "cheap shots", which will be handed out to all attendees on a regular basis. Page may also contain copious amounts of corn and cheese.
"Fussing" is insulting. Implying I'm a bigot who thinks "cross-dressing is somehow wrong", if that's what you were trying to do, would be egregiously insulting. When all I did was take the time to provide an in-depth review, and pick the hook where I anticipated there would be the fewest problems, there is no need to be that offensive. Ribbet32 (talk) 00:27, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Nuts!
For those playing along at home, the OP objects to this post of mine. Even members of my glittering array of talk-page stalkers—all connoisseurs of half-baked, fly-off-the-handle malapropistic[1] indignation, of which we get a lot around here for some reason—will enjoy an Eats, shoots, and leaves belly-laugh when they absorb this one. I proposed the DYK "hook"
Wearing clothing is a human characteristic. An animal can't be a transvestite, or a cross-dresser, really.
Then after some back and forth, I chided you for your continued
fussing that cross-dressing is somehow wrong.
And then you came here to pop your cork, saying that I had implied that you're "a bigot who thinks 'cross-dressing is somehow wrong'". I implied nothing of the sort. You should review MOS:WORDSASWORDS, wherein is explained the difference between my implying that you think
For those playing along at home, Maile's talking about this DYK item:
... that Juanita's Galley was noted for a "fabulous" breakfast, potluck, the proprietor's "unpredictable disposition", and a 40-person brawl featuring car jacks, pipes, steel bars, a fishbowl and an ax?
Like screenwriters, we hookers labor largely in obscurity. By taking time out to visit, Maile66, you've brought a ray of sunshine into the life of an otherwise forgotten shut-in. EEng00:08, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A beer for you!
I sort of doubt I'll be able to get through election night without drinking heavily. But I'll give it my best effort. GABgab15:50, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You wouldn't want me on decaf, since that would make me cranky from lack of caffeine. (I'm actually far less cantankerous than people think I am; they seem to assume I'm always being dead serious, and imagine me scowling, when I may be laughing). — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:26, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hello EEng. I just wanted to say thank you for your various museums. They have helped me immensely in living through this craziest (the nicest word I could think of - the others are much darker) of elections. Well, the day is finally here and a fellow wikipedian dropped this gem off on my talk page. I thought I would share it with you in appreciation of your sage sensibilities. Thanks again. MarnetteD|Talk16:09, 8 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I watched the clip, and was not impressed - don't care about the Trump part, just the bullhonkey about Brexit - so am unable to resist responding to it. We've had this little Brexit incident where we voted to leave the European Union. Ah, not that most of us wanted to of course, no no. It was just those people who bothered to vote. Poppycock, you regressives wanting to undermine the democratic process. You had your opportunity, and despite the largest voter turnout for anything in who knows how long (if ever), you lost. You self-righteous buggards. Democracy may be the worst system, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time. I get that this is meant to be a joke, so no hate directed towards anybody, except for "SavetheDay" as they seem to genuinely believe the hogwash they spread. Mr rnddude (talk) 17:15, 8 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Just as it's clear most Americans voting for Trump don't understand the implications of doing so, it's apparent that many or most of those voting for "Brexit" didn't understand the implications of doing that, either. Saying so isn't an attempt to undermine the democratic process, but rather a call to strengthen its foundation, which is an educated and informed electorate. I thought the video was brilliant (in the sense in which the English use the word). EEng18:05, 8 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I hate to point out but your choices in the U.S. give you the option between a liar and an idiot. [I]t's apparently that many or most of those voting for "Brexit" didn't understand the implications of doing that, I don't think you could be more wrong. The proof will be in the pudding - if it ever gets baked. The EU is looking more like a trojan horse to me everyday. [A]n educated and informed electorate - you'll only ever see a voter as "informed" if they think like you do. There's plenty of informed voters who voted for and against Brexit and whether you like it or not, there's plenty of informed voters voting for Hillary and Trump. Same info, different outcome. Mr rnddude (talk) 18:37, 8 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
you'll only ever see a voter as "informed" if they think like you do. I don't know whether that's the way you operate, but it's not the way I do. However, facts are facts, and since the overwhelming majority of self-described Trump supporters still think that Obama was born in Kenya, there would seem to be a severe informedness gap. As for Brexit, interviews post election show that many, if not most, Yes voters could not describe coherently what the EU is or does, or even pick it out on a multiple-choice list of descriptions of important international organizations.
However, as I have with other such threads on the page, I would like to declare this debate closed. This page is meant for discussions about improving the encyclopedia, or to provide pleasant relief for editors from the humdrum cares of editing – not political debate. EEng19:02, 8 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, I won't engage further except for one minor detail; I don't know whether that's the way you operate - If it were I'd be utterly confounded as to your support of Clinton. As it so happens I am not. Mr rnddude (talk) 19:10, 8 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My, this is a close election. Not nearly as comically one-sided as projected, yes? Perhaps that can make its way into the "museum"? Doctalk06:37, 9 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Eh, I for one support Brexit. As for the Donald, well, we'll have to wait and see. I had a comic thought about a short trump speech; Trump on the Birther Movement; "She started it", Everybody else; Mr Trump... t-this is the third presidential debate. Not kindergarten. Trump: Wrong! Mr rnddude (talk) 09:06, 9 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
".... most Americans voting for Trump don't understand the implications of doing so", dearest EEng you will next be telling us that the Pope is Catholic and bears defecate in woods (as long as the woods aren't Canadian or Mexican, in which case they just "perform" on the wall instead). Ritchie333(talk)(cont)10:03, 9 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Dear EEng: Like many editors here, I am very saddened to learn of the executive order to have you deported to Mexico. Truly, I have enjoyed editing with you. As for me, when they go low, we go high, and several states approved legal cannabis, so I intend to spend the next four years getting high. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:27, 9 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Leave it to you to inject something dirty into wholesome kids' entertainment. BTW, did you know we're part of a gay-bashing lynch mob [122]? EEng23:28, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"Leave it arht, me ol' china!! Just keep your marf shut, okay?? .. or me and Billy will 'ave to send the boys rahnd. In all clubs you get the occasional drunk and they 'ave to be slung arht. I intend to get married as soon as possible and Billy just wants to be left alone." Martinevans123 (talk) 23:44, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Ritchie333, you certainly made this suggestion at just the right moment. But now that the excitement's over, let's go ahead. I supplied the hook, so you make the nomination; I don't want to tempt fate. EEng03:19, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. How come I always attract the attention of admins with under 10K edits who haven't edited in years except to come out of the woodwork to give me the benefit of their gentle minstrations? EEng00:14, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There wasn't anything wrong, just Nakon thought there was -- remember, he's the one with the "cold medicine" excuse. Follow the link he refers to here [125] to see the original comment. EEng17:13, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Userpage
I've recreated your userpage as of immediately before the AE posting, minus the disputed section, at User:EEng/temp; feel free to just cut-and-paste it as you see fit. Intentionally created in your userspace rather than mine, to allow you to vanish it just by slapping {{db-u1}} on it if you don't want it hanging around. ‑ Iridescent23:53, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I knew something good would come from all of this, and maybe some of that good will be that someone will change the name of that image asap (blp and xyz being taken into account) not to mention that maybe you should throw some obscuring moondust on your caption there. Randy Kryn01:32, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
...on the other hand (the one holding a blue umbrella), if the young woman does employ herself in our oldest and most honest profession, this is about the best thing that could happen in promotional terms, and my apologies to her for going on about it so. On the complaining page EEng pretty much accused me of being full of lust (per my user/useless name), and, full disclosure, I had no retort or canonical abode to escape such a ludicrously self-evident charge. Randy Kryn12:50, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The Hookers chose their name, this woman may have known nothing of this and was on the street hawking blue umbrellas, a semi-trendy tattoo parlor, and Oz slipper knock-offs. Aside from chivalry of some kind and feeling protective of Wikipedia, I pushed at this issue a little because of the humorous irony which EEng pointed out. During a discussion about BLP violations out popped, totally separate from EEng's content, the biggest BLP violation on the site. That's entertainment. Randy Kryn00:35, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but your comment assumes that there's something shameful about being a hooker, and is thus a form of hate speech. I'm reporting you at AE. EEng03:04, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I personally like Robert Anton Wilson's definition of the professionals: 'tantric engineers'. Could be a category name. Congrats on the page come-back, I hope the lady in red appears within it, a story to tell your grandchildren. Randy Kryn 3:21, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
I complained here about the userpage. Didn't really do anything about it. Expected Hillary to win, and for it to become a shrine. Of... "hilarity"! Anyhoo, things will surely work themselves out. The financial markets aren't exactly spelling "doom-and-gloom".[126] Don't believe the hype! Cheers :> Doctalk08:10, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like I missed quite a party! It could never have lasted, I guess. I suggest you put your creative energies towards political cartooning; the Crimson keeps advertising for a contributor, or you could go for national syndication. FourViolas (talk) 19:55, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In American education there's something called "the P.E. Syndrome": the observation that a disproportionate number of Physical Education teachers become, ahem, administrators such as principals and vice-principals. Why? Because P.E. teachers have no lessons to prepare and no homework and exams to grade, leaving ample time to take the supplementary courses in educational theory required to move up through the ranks. As they say, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. And those who can't teach, teach gym" – and then become principal, I guess. There's a similar phenomenon here at WP, and it's especially obvious when you look at the contributions history of the clue-challenged admin who opened that ridiculous discussion. EEng17:48, 19 November 2016 (UTC) (P.S. No disrespect meant to the many good principals, vice-principals, and coaches out there -- just pointing out that, as in policing – and WP adminship, for that matter! – there are a number of bad apples that make the rest look bad.)[reply]
I go off Wikipedia for a week, and I miss all the good stuff, sadly. What a ridiculous mess: some Wikipedians just do not have a sense of humor. When I said above that you were going to be deported, I had no idea that it would be true. And of course they got it all wrong: they should have archived this talk page instead. Well, I'm glad to see that EEng's sense of humor has not been quashed. And don't get me started about P.E. teachers. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:53, 19 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wow... you get yourself into a lot of trouble, don't you? I suppose that's the ever-present risk of this type of humor: there are always people who cannot find it in themselves to tolerate it, and those people sometimes have the will and the ability to do something about it, even if it flies in the face of what is ultimately the greater good. On a positive note, that printed out copy of your user page I have has greatly increased in value! I would put it up on eBay, where I'm sure it would fetch thousands, but the sentimental value is simply too much. Colonel Wilhelm Klink (Complaints|Mistakes) 19:58, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Didn't the discussion end with saying you can put your user page back, minus some cuts and giggles related to the esteemed leader? Please raise the curtain again, the crowd out here is getting rowdy and none the wiser. Randy Kryn11:26, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Flattering! But that so-called essay (a one-sentence essay) was deleted in 2013 on my own request, see Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Do not say "With all due respect", where I stated I regretted ever putting it in Wikipedia space. Somebody has pointed the redirect WP:WADR to WP:WikiSpeak#WADR, which the "essay" was anyway redundant with, so all is good, Ritchie333; you can still use WP:WADR in conversation. (If you want to amaze yourself, check out WT:WADR for some of the lamest waste of timediscussion and greatest stubbornness over nothing I've seen in all my years here. Appropriate in a twisted way, I suppose.) Bishonen | talk16:48, 21 November 2016 (UTC).[reply]
Indeed it is (your opinion being of value, that is, although I also agree about the brilliant part), and thank you! The office pool is now open for estimates of the time that will elapse before some defender of the wiki will come along and want me blocked or something. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:44, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I should, on request, email people each one little little bit of The Old Museums for them to add to their user pages. Kind of spread it around. EEng22:49, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(For those playing along at home, this is re [128].) Perfect. Now it can truly be said that I've been blocked so many times, it's a joke. EEng18:29, 2 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
EEng, from now on, nobody can accuse you of having the most idiosyncratic sense of humor on the project. You have been surpassed in terms of utter weirdness. And once again, I missed all the fun! Only one second, and I wasn't even here. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:19, 3 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You're being mentioned, indirectly, here, where another editor is calling you "surreptitious" for calling Nazis Nazis. (Actual Nazis, not the modern ersatz ones.) —David Eppstein (talk) 00:31, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) I said "disingenuous" (not straightforward or candid). If it's in the hook, why can't it be in the article? (The article is what looks disingenuous to me.) Yoninah (talk) 00:34, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's not necessary to explain that WW2 Germany was a (the) Nazi state any more than it's necessary to explain that the "American president" is the "President of the United States". EEng02:14, 4 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
FirstLast-ever close
If one editor is warned not to insult and the other trouted for reverting, how was that a content dispute? And I am being nice here to you... Debresser (talk) 05:16, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
For those playing along at home, this concerns my close at [129]. Don't do me any favors. ANI is for serious stuff, not someone calling you a bad name. You got your warning and your trout, so go back to improving articles. EEng06:39, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is not much fun improving articles, when other editors can obstruct you from doing that and can call you names for trying too. I have been along for over 8 years, and believe me that I have seen drama. This was not a content issue but a behavioral one, for which the other editor was rightfully warned, so you made the wrong call calling this a content issue. Now you can play the lofty admin who per definition is right, but just that you should know, you weren't, and it won't be the first or the last time. Debresser (talk) 14:33, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Who made EEng an admin? I demand they return their tools - the ones they don't have - right now. In all seriousness, the warning and trout I handed out were most probably the best scenario outcome. I don't think a block or PBAN were on the cards. Hell, if I hadn't handed out the warning myself, they mightn't even received one. Furthermore, the editor - who's name is too convoluted for me to spell from memory (Nomoskedacity I think?) - remains in denial that their comment constitutes an NPA violation and at least a few of the editors were far less concerned with the incivility then they were with their interpretation of the equal representation issue on the article. Where's the equal representation of women at Nazism? there's women nazi's as well and right now that article is 100% dominated by men. The injustice of it all. WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS comes to mind. Besides, unless they cross the line further, a warning for a first offence is what is expected anyway. Mr rnddude (talk) 14:54, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a problem necessarily with the closing of the ANI, but the warning, and possibly trout, should have been mentioned in the close. It was not JUST a content dispute, as you mentioned there was an NPA issue and that is what brought the case to ANI. 🔯 Sir Joseph🍸(talk)14:59, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm... fair enough actually. If EEng wants to they can put "content dispute if I ever saw one with PA's and EW - for which warnings have been administered - to boot". If that would more accuaretly summarize the thread. That's up to EEng though. Mr rnddude (talk) 15:07, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you about righting great wrongs, but I think that should stay on the talk page, until it gets to be a big disruption. If I weren't involved, I would have closed it with the mention of a warning, so that it can be seen in the future should it be needed and that is why closing statements are important. I would also use the NAC template which is what is usually required for a non-admin closure. 🔯 Sir Joseph🍸(talk)15:10, 8 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
LOL I have to admit, that you have a sense of humor. I say that regarding your section header. Okay, so you f-ed up your first close. No big deal. Go forth and be fruitful. :) Debresser (talk) 12:37, 9 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Just wanted to clarify that, even within the collapsed echo-chamber, it was getting increasingly annoying for at least one of the participants as well as for anyone else who might have been trying to read it. I was honestly hoping someone would (again) come along and tell us to shut up so that I would have an excuse to stop replying and not have it look like I was deliberately ignoring him just to be antagonistic (believe it or not that actually happened before). I will try to take your advice, and I hope he does too.
Anyhow, my main reason for posting this here is just to clarify that the "thank you" I just gave you was not meant ironically. Believe it or, not, that is also something that has happened on at least two occasions (I was the one receiving the ironic thanks; I don't know if my thanks have been interpreted ironically).
Go through various noticeboards, and catalog the subject area that produced complaints for some thousands of random threads, which can be normalized by the number of articles/edits in mainspace articles of that subject. Should make for an interesting read - hopefully someone does it, and we can get support for your proposals. Someguy1221 (talk) 06:14, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've been saying this for years. Instead of # of articles, I think the right metric would be page views. My prediction would be that the lowest signal-to-noise ration will be found in: footy, wrestling, porn stars, and music genres. Eliminate those and we can all live happily ever after. EEng07:12, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's very interesting (and for once at this talk page, I'm not joking). Dramas per page view. I think there might actually be a bimodal result. The greatest frequency of obvious idiotic conduct (in other words, where it is easy to see what the problem was and how to deal with it) would indeed be in those topics. But if instead one focused on the most intractable conflicts, a different population would emerge, with a lot of religion, politics, and pseudoscience showing up. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:45, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Some years back during the height of the MMA wars, I suggested wiping out the entire MMA wiki project. Best analogy would be the nuke from orbit option. Full saturation. Even had a few people agreeing. Blackmane (talk) 23:25, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to avoid intractable conflict, specialize in writing and editing biographies of 19th century state legislators. They all meet WP:POLITICIAN so you need not fear AfD. Other than that, nobody cares, which gives an ambitious editor free reign. The downside, of course, is that nobody cares. Cullen328Let's discuss it06:38, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I would have thought that pages about species of aquarium fishes would be similarly drama-free. Alas, I've seen nasty arguments started by WP:ELNO and WP:NOTHOWTO advocates who care more about rules than about subject matter. Far from intractable, but enough to surprise me. By now, nothing surprises me anymore. After all, early in my editing career I got death threats because I had said that I thought that an image from a Japanese comic book did not need to be deleted from part of a page that was discussing that image. (It was when the geniuses at Something Awful were on a crusade to delete anything about Japanese pop culture from Wikipedia because... well, they just couldn't stand it.) --Tryptofish (talk) 22:34, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Have you ever considered making a userbox template that would track how many dollars you have in the game? Some of them are obviously untrackable (like editor review, R.I.P), and others hard to track, like third opinion, but most of the user rights can be done, and also probably the FAC's and related. IazygesConsermonorOpus meum02:16, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is the second brilliant idea here in the last 24 hours. I'll put this on my list of things to do between now and when I die. EEng02:19, 12 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Allow me to reveal your destination (at least the pilot knew where he was headed) ;)
"Flight 1549 hit birds on taking off from La Guardia, disabling both engines, but the pilot ditched the plane in the river and everyone survived; investigation confirmed he had made the right decision and he became a hero". ENDS.
...evidenced of course by an appropriate citation.
Although, maintaining an editor's healthy self-criticism, perhaps still the flight number is fancruft? If you had just got out of the sea after a crash landing, would you be bothered about the number? That's another few characters saved!
For those playing along at home, this is about US Airways Flight 1549. IanB2 Well, actually, now that you mention it I suppose we could reduce the entirety of the article to, "Accidents will happen. The End."
I hope your comment doesn't hint at concealed resentment. I do feel strongly that too much detail of interest only to the select few made the article a very hard slog for those who wanted a generalist's understanding of what happened, with only such technical information as impacted directly on the event. One technique would be to move such stuff to sections of their own after the main narrative, or to footnotes. See Phineas Gage to see how I've used both techniques to control an abundance of ramified detail on a single subject. EEng02:50, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not at all. I am enjoying the gusto with which you are trimming the article. And wanted to wish you a merry Christmas. If it enabled me also gently to make the point that you occasionally throw someone living overboard, that was a bonus ;) IanB2 (talk) 08:58, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
On the stuff you have deleted about the fire service respond, I would suggest restoring the citations and attaching them to the following sentence in the article - the citations provide links to extra stuff on the emergency response, for those that want to research this, and only show as a tiny number on the article so don't delay the casual reader. IanB2 (talk) 23:23, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
it's almost christmas...you didn't die this year...someone on the internet put two and two together and posted something about it...so...maybe things are finally starting to look up TimothyJosephWood19:51, 21 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I just wanted to make something cynical, after seeing a dozen or so people posting season's greetings on...two or three hundred talk pages each. Seems like it might fit in here. TimothyJosephWood20:01, 21 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
... if I were to refrain from raising my beverage vessel to you in appreciation of your efforts at Fred West on the quest we would be forced to pursue of eliminating unnecessary usage (which would not be inaccurately described as "virtually all usage") of the "Forensic Files" past prospective tense. Children who grew up watching half-hour crime reconstructions on cable would grow up to become writers who apparently believe it would make them sound like hard-hitting professional journalists, and even reasonably reputable print organs would begin to use the pointless affectation as liberally as the peanuts a Dairy Queen employee would dollop generously onto a sundae he would have doused immediately prior with hot fudge. Reasonable minds would consider a public awareness campaign if there weren't arguably bigger fish that would require frying. Hoping you will go on to have a happy 2017! - Julietdeltalima(talk)17:37, 22 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not prepared to fully rise to this haughty and aloof ludicrosity (although I could should I wish to do so) beyond saying that not only do some of us prepare ourselves with exhaustive hours spent (beyond watching and reading crime fanzines which you seem to believe I solely do so to leave - in your mind - a charlatan legacy), to create and populate articles with reputable/verifiable references for the ULTIMATE benefit of the global community and NOT myself, but that we do NOT devote similar energy to dismiss others' effort. In the 8 years I've been doing this your comment takes the cake. User EEng please don't think I am even slightly lassoing yourself in here to this reply. User:Julietdeltalima, I'll take you WAY beyond Wikipedia crime-wise if you like to attest to what I can detach myself to (I was tempted to add an ultimate, non-Wikipedia link but won't do so but ask me on my talk page and I'll do so). Do what I do, to the extent to which I do, with the capabilities of retaining your emotions and sanity, then come back to me and ridicule me. Regards.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:22, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's nothing personal, EEng. (it Up! Break it Up!) I just checked your page to see if there were any observations of the article thus far and read that for the 1st time. I know it's retrospective to a degree. Just had to let my thoughts known. No disrespect intended to any individual. Sicko signs out. ;)--Kieronoldham (talk) 03:10, 15 January 2017 (UTC) Regards.[reply]
No personal offense intended to Julia; I suspect she didn't know it was largely a solo effort to the then-date of construction. Maybe this is a gripe to a degree, but generally on Wiki. I see no shortage of reference etc. tagging but not a degree of effort from those asking for citations etc. to populate the web themselves. Julia don't take it personally. With 4 or 5 exceptions I've encountered on Wiki. over the years, people can't detach themselves to do this type o' topic. That's actually one of the reasons I devote attention largely to this topic. Off-topic to a degree, but I work with data. All the best to yous both.--Kieronoldham (talk) 03:20, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm just trying my best to populate an article most could not surmount their nervous system to evolve to how it could be (and in my way is albeit with slightly meandering sentence structure). Regards.--Kieronoldham (talk) 03:16, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Kieronoldham: And you've done a good job -- took a lot of research. I apologize again if I hurt your feelings, though sometimes I can't resist highlighting awkward turns of the phrase. I hope you feel the article is improved by the tightening, which is mostly done without loss of information, though there will be places where I'll eliminate what I see as overdetail. Feel free to push back. EEng03:57, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. I'm sorry if I sounded slightly abrasive. You didn't hurt any feelings; I just sensed - probably wrongly - you were being dismissive. I just find these challenges rewarding and do them ultimately for the benefit of others' reading. I am aware I can add a little too much (superfluous?) detail from time to time. You've tightened and trimmed it quite well. Have a good Christmas.--Kieronoldham (talk) 20:38, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, no, your reaction was an understandable one when someone arrives out of nowhere not only taking a hatchet to your hard work, but with some, er, unkind things to say along the way. I hadn't realized the article was mostly one person's work -- usually masses like that are the work of many over a long period. I'm not sure I have the energy to continue, though, at least right now. Maybe I'll drop in from time to time. EEng21:06, 23 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Just letting you know your improvements to the Fred West article are appreciated from the heart, EEng. Sometimes overlapping information and personal lexicon can be overlooked. Seasons Greetings, too. Kieronoldham (talk) 00:03, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Trypto, that comment was meant to be a joke, not an attack or criticism. FBDB. Besides, EEng and Martinevans are two people who have linked to sexual content in discussion to each other. His lot was an offhand comment about this talk page and those who frequent it - hello to a lesser extent I gues. That's what I was pointing to. I hope that didn't come out too wrong. Happy to retract or rephrase if EEng likes. Mr rnddude (talk) 01:20, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My reference to "critics" was meant as a reference to EEng's userpage, where there is a section called "What the critics are saying", and it means "critic" in the sense of someone who appraises or reviews, as opposed to criticism as in finding fault. And I posted here because you didn't ping or whatever, so I figured that EEng and the rest of us in the "lot" would want to know. I don't think that what you said there was particularly offensive, although I guess some humorless types will construe it as EEng and the rest of us having a misogynistic sense of humor or something like that. Personally, I found your post at the RfA kind of tl;dr, and kind of not really helpful for an RfA, but your mileage may differ. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:49, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Mhmm. Fair enough. I probably should have pinged EEng as I did name them. I didn't mostly because as you call it, it is a "tl;dr" that would leave EEng wondering what I'm on about for about half the wall. I did say somewhere towards the end that this was far more a personal comment than a adminship capabilities related one, so it's value as an RfA comment might be more limited. Thanks Tryptofish for leaving the note to EEng and for the reply. Mr rnddude (talk) 01:54, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Eh, for those reading if anyone at all. I've significantly cut my post at Ivan's RfA. It no longer mentions anyone by name and I hope it's less tl;dr'y. This is what Tryptofish was referring to. Cheers, Mr rnddude (talk) 02:25, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate that. Am I really some kind of apex predator in the Wikipedia ecosystem? And here I thought I was just making the occasional joke here and there to lighten the mood. I've been thinking of nominating myself at RfA just to find out what people really think of me. EEng02:34, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, last I checked the definition of apex predator is grabbing them by the pussy without asking permission, so I figure talking about the pussy without asking for permission is quite a way up there. Maybe not apex but definitely in the top 10. :) Mr rnddude (talk) 02:53, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, talking about the pussy of someone in particular, yes, but surely not pussy in the abstract. Anyway, this is all very fine talk comeing from Mr. Nude Dude. EEng03:16, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
WP:ANI
How could you not realise a discussion had been archived when it has a huge coloured box around it? You had to see the section had been archived to even edit it. It's not controlling what you say to tell you it's not right to reply in an archived discussion. It's against policy. Ss11205:39, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You're very sure in your pronouncements, yet your display at ANI shows that you don't listen -- a deadly combination. In the edit conflict page the rendered page is in the middle; if you jump to the bottom (as I did) to pick up the text of my post, then jump to the edit box at the top (as I did) to reinsert that text, you won't see it (as I didn't)isn't even shown, so there's no huge colored box for me to notice. Now for the nth time, as a pile of editors have now told you, stop ascribing dark motives to your fellow editors, stop trying to control what articles they edit, and stop trying to control where and how they post comments. Got it? EEng06:01, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"No peace"
With your permission, I'd like to explain "no peace": I used to help out at union protests and "no peace" was a frequently-chanted slogan. Though, using "no peace" does not advocate in any way for any actions that WP:BATTLEGROUND prohibits. I hope I've cleared the confusion that I've unknowingly caused. CédricHATES TPP.23:59, 24 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm from a working-class background so I don't need any pointers on picket-line slogans, thanks. If you think your explanations at ANI are helping your case, you're very much mistaken. I suggest you withdraw your demands for an apology, and try to demonstrate to the community that you understand why everyone is so pissed off at you. If you fail to do this you're very likely to get blocked, possibly indefinitely. EEng02:21, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi EEng. Thanks for your reply to my query. You should be aware that I have already alerted the other editor to the existence of the MOS thread - in case you might prefer to moderate your comment. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 22:35, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, but my comments were meant for public consumption, including by our esteemed colleague—in fact I pinged him. Someone who, after being directed to the MOS provision contradicting his view, insists that "I would also add that my opinion as an individual is at least as valid as yours and if I want to make these changes - which are not a waste of time - I will do so!" is unlikely to become a productive editor. It's also worth noting that (as seen in that quotation, which is copy-pasted straight from his post) he confuses a dash for a hyphen in a discussion in which he emphasizes his superior knowledge of how to use endashes and emdashes! Amazing. EEng23:09, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Trust me, we've already seen. Forget consensus, he acknowledges what a house style is and then keeps on arguing. I got my fill of people who lecture others on how to write, without apparently being able to do it themselves, in college Expos. EEng00:27, 26 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
MOS your way
EEng, you've been given tons of slack to rewrite the MOS your way, though it's not clear what your point is. So when someone (like me) pushes back on one or more of your edits, don't you think it's incumbent on you to discuss before pushing your way in an edit war? Dicklyon (talk) 02:42, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
For those playing along at home, we're talking about this [132]. I don't need any slack, thanks. You may not see the point (reduce distracting overdetail on technical points and general flab and bloat, improve layout, bring related points together...) but from the Thank-Yous I've received apparently others do; there are many eyes on the page and no doubt any changes not perceived as improvements would be rapidly reverted.
As to the matter at hand... You removed an example I had added, stating a concern. I reinserted the example, with an edit summary explaining why I thought your concern was misplaced. You removed again, and I reinserted again, this time in a modified form I thought would address your concern, overfussy though I think it is. That's not an "edit war". EEng03:37, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What uncivil? What rejoinder? All I said is everyone should feel like they're a winner once in a while, so we're all happy for you! But while we're on the subject, I might ask what the point is of your uncivil section header (though please understand that I am not, in fact, asking). EEng06:26, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever the personality issue, this wave of mass edits to MoS has to stop. I'm liable to revert the entire mess back to the last stable version. Please do not do this sort of thing, EEng. I'm pretty sure that you know that "MoS is unstable, so it's not really a guideline and thus we should ignore it" is among the top 2 or 3 anti-MoS (usually false) rationales of people who would delete or gut the guideline. Stop making it true for them, I beg you. I'm pretty sure you also know that minor clarifying changes often turn out to be controversial, because they subtly shift meaning (or can be misinterpreted as doing so) in ways that affect large numbers of articles. I think you should self-revert that mess, then make a couple of copyediting changes, and let that sit for a week. Give people time to assess whether they actually change anything. Then make a few more. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:19, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
SMcCandlish, I don't think "mess" is an appropriate term. You know how careful I am, and it doesn't sound like you've actually looked yet. Please do. In particular I'd like you, with your mercilessly critical eye, to review these: [133][134][135][136][137][138][139][140][141].
I did look, and saw reasons to object immediately, though only here and there. I am not doing a mass-revert (I oppose those generally, and was hyperbolically indicating frustration). I'm poring over it all now. I agree many of the changes are positive, but some are not. I'm trying to massage back in what needs to be restored without doing violence to your cleanup intent. That said, please don't use guideline pages as sandboxes to experiment with templates and wikimarkup. If you are not "markup master", just ask on the talk page for someone to deal with the matter, like closing up example spacing in a way that doesn't just introduce new problems. I'm about 1/5 done going through it all (including intervening edits by others). I've taken a very hands-off approach to MoS for months and stopped watchlisting it, but I don't think that was a good idea. Now that I'm looking again, many (especially drive-by) edits to the page do not appear to be helpful. (Again, I think many of yours were, it was just the shotgun approach I mostly had an issue with, and I think it's what has alarmed Dicklyon, and I think Tony1 raised a concern, too). — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 03:12, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't expect to do so much at once, but you know how one gets into a groove. But don't worry, I've certainly scratched my itch for now. EEng22:53, 27 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I get it. It's just that getting in that fugue state on a guideline can lead to a lot of disputes. Anyway, I just spent several hours poring over all that (and I didn't mean "mess" in a pointed way; where I'm from, "all that mess" is an colloquialism that's equivalent to "all that stuff, which I don't want to think about / deal with / explain right now"), with an eye not just to what I care about but what anyone else is likely to object to. Hopefully we can let it lie for now. PS: I don't care about the exact wording here, just a) there's more than one way (MoS's own lead makes the point "rewrite around dispute when you can", and I like to reinforce this throughout MoS), b) "stilted" is just an opinion, not an MoS "finding of fact". Honestly, I think everyone on earth will just DGaF about making that sentence a tiny bit shorter, so unless you really object to it in some way .... I was tempted to put back a handful of other things but I recognized that they were not really necessary, and had been added as "what if someone stupid thinks it means ..." WP:CREEP and/or that I'd added it myself and was feeling defensive about my word-sprouts; you were right to delete them. Anyway, I would expect some later editors to tweak what you did and what I did after some more, including some possible reversions to the older text. I would suggest we take them to the talk page as line-items to discuss and not edit the page directly. The fact that it's been so stable for most of this year is a major selling point. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 08:02, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing like creating an important category every once in awhile...
Thanks for the, um, tips, Martin. (And what a cheerful narrator!) Very useful here in the US, where we are well on into the process of legalizing recreational use. In contrast (jingoism alert!), our page on The Roaches is the very essence of UK twee. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:34, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Awww... "The legend says that she fell in the pool on a foggy day whilst walking along the top of the Roaches. Ever since that day she has been enticing unsuspecting victims down to the pool and to their watery grave." How lovely! It's because it's only just down the road from Coronation Street. Martinevans123 (talk) 00:39, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I also like The Roches. As for the CfD, they should have nominated that stupid roach category instead. But I've gone to that CfD and made a suitably dyspeptic !vote. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:31, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"We don't give out our ages, and we don't give out our phone numbers (Give out our phone numbers!) / Sometimes our voices give out, but not our ages and our phone numburrrrs!" EEng21:03, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, technically "two apparently sane people, one person I've never heard of so have no opinion of, and one serial fuckwit who's so consistently stupid that closing all discussions the opposite way to whatever he's supporting is actually a workable admin technique, but always just about manages to weasel his way out of any action being taken against him", but that would be a little long-winded. ‑ Iridescent16:21, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Aye, the Roaches. After meeting them at a venue back in the olden days they drove by and stopped me on the street to put my name on that evening's show guest list. One of my faves. And yes, the two cartoon characters added to the category should be removed (cartoons, and one is a cat, what's the world....), the main member of the category is the space-mother cockroach and never Mark Twain shall meet. Randy Kryn17:09, 22 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
[FBDB]Even though I'm on Arbcom, I'm just commenting here as an average, everyday editor.
Well, I won't do it that way again -- wasn't intending to -- but I was absolutely serious in what I said here [143] and will periodically remind DYKers of it until people seem comfortable simply ignoring those of his comments that deserve ignoring. Whatever the value of some of his complaints, they are largely (and perhaps completely -- more than completely) outweighed by his insistence on drowning them in a sea of trivial niggles. It's a shame, because he has an eye for potential problems but no sense of priority. EEng04:07, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your substantive point, but a nasty presentation risks distracting from it. (FYI, I'm forever recused on anything TRM-related, so my arbship really is irrelevant here.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:25, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'd characterize my presentation as forceful, but your point is valid and I'll keep it in mind. Thanks for visiting, Your Arbship. (BTW, I pointed out to Drmies the other day that one anagram of Arbitration Committee is Motto: recriminate a bit. Perfect, don't you think?) EEng04:30, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please dont do this and stop making a fool of yourself its not clever, it would be better to educate us as you appear to know the small print of the MoS and explain why we cant add United States to places in the United States in aircraft accident infoboxes. Do you have any suggestions as to where the best place is to mention the United States, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 13:24, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is no best place. Articles don't refer to New York City as New York City, United States, and this has nothing to do with this being what you sardonically call "Usapedia", because we also don't tell our readers that London is in England, Moscow in Russia, or Tokyo in Japan. I explained this twice [145][146], the second time linking the two controlling guidelines –
– which you apparently didn't read, because you once again changed the article to read Washington State, United States and New York City, United States.
You're an admin so I shouldn't have to tell you all this. If you're responsible for the opening of various articles explaining (for example) that Heathrow Airport is in "Hillingdon, London, England, United Kingdom", then you've got a lot of cleanup to do. I might be gentler if you'd omitted the Usapedia crack, which you should probably reserve for when you know what you're talking about. EEng16:08, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(talk page stalker) Just wondering -- why would we need to know that the US Airways flight was coming from the United States? :/
Just wait until the new President is sworn in. (POV-pushing and spam alert: I'm proudly wearing my "Don't blame me. I voted for Hillary." button, that can be obtained from Amazon. Really, I'm actually wearing that button!) --Tryptofish (talk) 00:08, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
MilborneOne, to my astonishment I just stumbled [147] on the fact that you and I already interacted on this issue once, so I really don't understand why we're going over it again. EEng01:23, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
For those playing along at home, we're talking about anagrams of the phrase Manual of Style[148] Oh, but you can put it on my talk page??? I guess I can take comfort in knowing that I provide an outlet for the community's otherwise pent-up creativity.
Taking your lead, let's see, um, we've also got Lo! My anal fetus! (not very catchy, if you ask me) and My so-anal flute or My anal flute – so??? (hardly improvements). Oh, wait, how about Lofty anal muse? Possibly some member of my glittering array of talk page stalkers can can expand our
...as the proposer, I am not actually wanting this to pass. I rather want to lay the issue to rest against a tendentious argument. Thanks for your support by so clearly opposing (one of the odder thanks I've given another editor, to be sure). Happy New Year. Eggishorn(talk)(contrib)01:10, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Eggishorn, as any member of my glittering array of talk page stalkers will attest, I specialize in not giving people the opposite response to the counterfactual strawman they didn't propose. Have you visited The Museums? EEng01:17, 2 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"An elderly man taking his songbird out for a walk ..."
Sorry if this puzzled you; in retrospect I can see that to a reader not familiar with China it might need some explanation.
It's not unheard of, even today, for older men in China to keep caged songbirds as pets. In mornings they actually take them out, usually in the cages but sometimes (less so now) letting them fly around the city (they eventually return). That's what was happening there.
I've given him a Big Scary Warning. I have better things to do than monitor him for compliance, but if he starts this Dash Warrior shit again let me know and I'll send him on his way. (For someone to reach the point where Dicklyon is complaining that they're too obsessed with imposing their personal stylistic preferences deserves some kind of award in its own right.) ‑ Iridescent19:31, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, my high school Russian got me that far. It's the video I'm unclear on. EEng06:50, 8 January 2017 (UTC) Anyway, didn't the Tsarevich come to an unhappy end?[reply]
When I clicked the link, I got taken to a disgusting compilation of Russians puking after drinking too much booze. As I understand it, there is a tremendous amount of vodka consumption there, so vodka drinking is something of a cliché. EEng Vodka, anyone? --Tryptofish (talk) 18:48, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I heard about it on NPR. He says it couldn't have happened because he is a germ-phobe. (Really, I heard that.) No wonder he has so many divorces. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:04, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Almost nudged you to be more civil over this thread at the time, suspecting that your opening comment might just goad the other editor into being elaborately defensive of something that didn't matter, and I see this has now happened. Someone made an edit without being aware of policy, we made them aware of policy, they went silent: you should WP:DROPTHESTICK at that point. Civility policy is there to avoid wasting everybody's time with unnecessary arguments, as much as anything. --McGeddon (talk) 09:50, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
[For those playing along at home, we're talking about this reversion [155] and this talk page thread [156]] Oh, please. Mr. Dyspeptic called fixing the typo uttrerly in a quotation "the edge of vandalism" and "deliberately destructive" because (he still says even now, though he can't seem to explain how) the error is "textually significant". EEng18:29, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. You appear to be repeatedly reverting or undoing other editors' contributions at Wikipedia talk:Did you know. Although this may seem necessary to protect your preferred version of a page, on Wikipedia this is known as "edit warring" and is usually seen as obstructing the normal editing process, as it often creates animosity between editors. Instead of reverting, please discuss the situation with the editor(s) involved and try to reach a consensus on the talk page.
If editors continue to revert to their preferred version they are likely to be blocked from editing Wikipedia. This isn't done to punish an editor, but to prevent the disruption caused by edit warring. In particular, editors should be aware of the three-revert rule, which says that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Edit warring on Wikipedia is not acceptable in any amount, and violating the three-revert rule is very likely to lead to a block.
For those playing along at home, this concerns a discussion at Talk:DYK which a certain dyspeptic editor has repeatedly tried to close, because in his opinion it's not useful [157][158], notwithstanding that the discussion was immediately ongoing (e.g. witness the timestamps on the left side of those two diffs, showing that others had commented just minutes before the unilateral "closes").
Unhatting [159][160] a discussion which was inappropriately hatted, so that it can continue, is not "reverting to a preferred version". In fact, our mutual friend's latest "close" even removed another editor's post—my post, if you can believe the nerve [161]. So if anything, it's our dyspeptic friend who is "reverting to a preferred version". Next time, get a clue before butting in.
And the discussion's not off topic. While you may be unable to comprehend it, we're discussing the extent to which politically charged hooks are appropriate. The fact that we're having a little fun along the way, or that you personally are unable to share in that, makes it no less true. Welcome to Wikipedia! EEng23:42, 25 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Whichever way you look at it, you continually reverted TRM in violation of 3RR, and you shouldn’t because it’s against policy and can get you into trouble. So please desist. And a heads up – TRM has continued the conversation on my talk page and I’ve decided to report him to AN3. When they look into it, they may or may not have something to say to you as well. Hence my note to you. Schwede6618:22, 26 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Schwede66, looks like you got your hand slapped for trying to do something sensible—welcome to adminship! As you've now learned, our dyspeptic friend has a talent for busybody fussing about nothing, followed by wasting others' time trying to salve his bruised ego by proving he was right—yours is not the only talk page he's posted to about this. He's like Malleus but less clever. (Tip: watch out for anyone who pluralizes forum as fora[162].)
Just to make sure it's clear on the record, I'll point out again that he repeatedly declared the discussion at an end just minutes after others had posted to it [163][164], which is completely inappropriate, and it's no kind of edit warring that I unhatted every time so that discussion could continue. And (importantly) at one point he deleted a post of mine [165], which is completely beyond the pale. It's a great example of the confrontational shit-stirring which earned him both a desysopping and an editing restriction prohibiting him from "insulting and/or belittling other editors". EEng05:03, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I clicked that link, and I think I saw the end of the world as we know it. Now we actually have red state and blue state coffees. Unbelievable. Or at least, not my cup of tea. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:04, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That said, any admin who encourages consumption of strong German beer to cool down after excessive whine should probably have their mop revoked. That's a frickin' terrible idea. In fact in a manner of speaking, I have it to blame for this edit summary. :P
Hi, EEng. In reference to one of your edit summaries on the Charles Whitman page. The articles were diverged into two separate ones around December or January. If you look at this version of the Whitman article dating from when the entirety was on one page, there is a casualty table. I removed this article from my watchlist and have only recently re-added it. Regards.--Kieronoldham (talk) 22:30, 18 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Kieronoldham, good to run into you again. The current textual presentation of "hits" is numbing, and very hard to absorb. The table in the version you linked is better, but what would really do it right would be a conventional sortable table, with columns something like: Order#, Name, M/F, Age, killed-vs-injured, occupation/role (maybe), Notes/comments/narrative. Where two victims have a common story they could share a spanned cell in the last column. I actually began to do this yesterday but realized it's just too much work given my low interest level in the subject. However, if you're interested I could set up the technical stuff for the table and you can do the grunt work, with me dropping in now and then to criticize what you're doing and run roughshod over it. Deal? ;)
I should also mention that I'm not sure the articles should have been split. I'm not saying they shouldn't, I'm just not sure. Maybe. Maybe not. Yes. No. Um... EEng22:57, 18 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There was a discussion on validity of splitting the article which you can find on the talk page of either the Whitman article or the user (whose name I forget) who started the splitting work on the spree page itself. To my mind the rationale is justified even though personally I think they should remain as one article. This article dropped off my radar and I just chose to re-add it a few weeks ago. As for sortable tables, I'll be happy to do it if I get consensus (I know how to create them). I only get a limited amount of talk page engagement myself - which I can understand - even though I just stab at articles until I get the temperature right i.e. - to my mind - eminent.--Kieronoldham (talk) 23:12, 18 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
For taking up the cause at University of Texas Tower Shooting, which, although you may not know it, was started by a brand new editor from basically scratch, and was probably the best first article I've ever seen. It's good to see the thing stick and get substantive attention from an experienced editor, which is exactly how this whole thing is supposed to work. TimothyJosephWood16:07, 19 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Some of it was; some of it wasn't. After the draft was made into an article, I did a bit trying to walk the user through the merging process, which they began, but haven't yet completed. Admittedly I've knowingly let a lot of duplication of content sit in mainspace for a while, but the editor seemed enthusiastic and competent, if intermittent, so I figured I would let nature run it's course, and mentor as best I could, since the experience would probably be a valuable one for them. I'll take a look at the article's talk and look toward getting more involved over the next week. TimothyJosephWood16:29, 19 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Me and Charlies are from the same home town. I grew up with (older) neighbors who knew him. I've heard anecdotes about him from people who knew him and I actually got caught by a cop egging the church he went to. (The cop was protestant and Irish, so he let us go when we gave our excuse as "it's a catholic church").
I like being able to wrap the vicious insultjoke itself into the link, but the tooltip is a great idea which I will be shamelessly stealing from you this weekend.
I've already been accused of using my links (I have two, the other one is here) to hide my personal attacks. To be fair, I had used the text "Shut your stupid pie-hole" as the link text, so not exactly a huge leap there. But it got me to thinking: who, in the grips of a red-hot, raging butthurt would think to try to avoid a block for insulting someone? No-one. So who would put thought into it, and try to be more devious by insulting people with phrases linked to a page which serves only to make it clear they didn't really mean that? Well, the odd moron might, but frankly anyone with some creativity can insult the living hell out of another editor without ever getting so overt as to be blocked. Hell, without even the person being insulted realizing that they're being insulted. It's not hard, and it's not like you're on the spot: you can plan a good insult for hours without anyone knowing that you're not just busy IRL. So I'm curious as to whether anything like that has ever actually happened.
Both you and I independently thought to make "joke" tags of some short. Shirly, we can't be the first. I'm wondering if, buried deep within the dark and musty depths of the ANI archives or the Arbcom archives, is there a case of an editor making a "joke" tag and then actually trying to use it to get away with hurling a bit of nastiness around? One of these days, I'll put on my fedora, strap on my whip and go spelunking for answers, I think. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.04:34, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
NeilN, I want to act shocked, but I've been on the internet before. Did they actually argue that that wasn't a personal attack?
For future reference, if I ever say something that implies there is a minimum level of intelligence which is universal in humans; No. I'm not willing to bet on it.
I'm familiar with this, having read some of the studies. For example, let's say the population of the US is 320 million. One percent of that is 3.2 million. And the square root of that is 1,788. Hope that helps. Thanks. TimidGuy (talk) 19:56, 19 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
For those playing along at home, this is about [170]
TimidGuy, you're interpreting it as (The sqrt of (1% of 320 million)). But what if it's ((the square root of 1%) of 320 million)? Then sqrt(1%) is 10%, and 10% of 320 million is 32 million. No wonder there's still war and unhappiness and Donald Trump. Also, how come it's quantized by national boundaries? I mean, let's say the population of Boston is 1 million. 1% of that is 10,000; sqrt of that is 100. Now, I could probably get 100 friends and neighbors together for a little TM. Would that work, at least for Boston? And if so, but I work in Cambridge, do I lose my happiness for the duration of the workday? And if that's true, what happens if I go to Allston, which is a neigborhood that wasn't incorporated into Boston until the late 19th century. Does the cosmic consciousness operate according to current, up-to-date political boundaries, or some traditional boundaries from the past? EEng20:47, 19 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The example given in the actual article clearly intends : For example, a group of 200 practicing the TM-Sidhi program together in a city of four million (100 x 200 x 200) would be sufficient to produce a measurable influence on the whole city. The evidence is overwhelming: The p values (the probabilities of the observed changes happening by chance) of these three effects were 0.01, 0.005, and 0.001. The groups in question are clearly defined as "whichever we happen to be interested in, during a conveniently chosen interval". FourViolas (talk) 17:14, 20 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, no, ITYM a bunch of clowns -- and they certainly made me laugh! "The square root of one percent of the population" is the funniest thing I've heard all week. (Granted, it's been a bad week...) —Steve Summit (talk) 15:01, 24 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I bought you something!
I actually appreciate the cheer leading at the joke cat RfC, but there was no way I wasn't going to tease you about it.
Your recent editing history at Harvard University shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.
Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. X4n6 (talk) 22:02, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. You're always good for a laugh. Like I keep saying, if you want this material removed [171], take it to talk. EEng23:52, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm shocked to learn from the header of this talk section that students are edit warring at Harvard University. They need to stop it, and go back to studying. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:04, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This guy never learns (see multiple sections here [172]). He came back from a hiatus a year ago and since then 10% of his edits have been related to this preoccupation with Harvard. EEng03:50, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I'm deeply sorry that I didn't immediately realize that Your Preciousness was above the rules of this project. I must have missed the section of 3RR which clearly stated that you were exempted. All I know is that two separate editors have disputed your edit - and you've reverted them more than 3 times - with zero discussion at talk. But instead of you initiating that discussion, it's their job, right? You revert, but they must initiate talk? Because it's... you - or by your comments above, because we dared infringe on your illusory fiefdom at the Harvard article? Well, although other editors are clearly amused by you - your sense of special privilege and entitlement bores me. If you could simply condescend to follow the same rules which the rest of us unwashed and unworthy lower castes do, then further unwanted interaction with Your Preciousness would be unnecessary. X4n6 (talk) 07:23, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Do you suffer from amnesia, incompetence or just an aversion to the truth? It wasn't my change that you originally reverted. Also curious, is your invocation of BRD - not only because you obviously haven't read its first paragraph - esp. the sentence in bold - but because you have still failed to perform the "D" in "BRD" at the article's talk. So your bleating here means nothing. X4n6 (talk) 09:14, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You misunderstand who does what in BRD. Someone else removed this longstanding bit of content; I reverted, and they apparently were happy to leave it at that. You stepped in a day later to re-remove the content, and I again reverted. At that point you're the B and I'm the R, and it was up to you to initiate the D, if you cared enough. Instead you simply tried to edit-war in your preferred version of the article with the content removed. EEng19:54, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
While clearly needed, I realize a disquisition on policies and correct practices would fall on deaf ears. Although your concession, that you have reverted two editors w/o talk page discussion, is useful. Beyond that, I'll simply point out that the rest of your response is moot - as I did start the conversation - and you have still failed to respond. So your choices are to either respond and discuss there - or refusing that - I'll do a little BRD of my own. X4n6 (talk) 21:51, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's your job to open a thread, make your case for change, and get consensus. What you posted is so vague that apparently no one even knows what you want to do, much less why, which explains why no one's responded including me. In the meantime for some reason you're spending your time here entertaining my glittering salon of talk page stalkers. EEng22:10, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You've been on WP how long and you haven't looked up words for "ponderous walls of text"?
No arguments here. Do not mistake my recognition of slang which I'm probably too old to use in real life for an endorsement of the way it's used by those who often do.
No joking though, you should address the crap on the article's talk page, since "take it to talk" generally implies "I'll meet you there." Although I know well and good that you probably don't need told that. TimothyJosephWood23:09, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Of course. But this guy has a history of trolling on this article, and I'm not inclined to put myself out helping him get his act together. When he explains what he wants and why he wants it, then I'll respond. EEng23:27, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, but engaging in discussion is kindof an implicit obligation in reverting, and they did post a response on the talk in accordance with instructions give in your last edit summary. TimothyJosephWood23:38, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes he did... eventually. But he phrased it as a requirement for others to explain why his change shouldn't be made, instead of him saying why it should be made, and like I said I'm not in the mood to do him any favors. Anyway, the estimable David Eppstein has cut the Gordian knot, and discussion is underway. I have no doubt it will be a complete waste of time like every other discussion this guy has opened on this article. EEng23:44, 22 February 2017 (UTC) I think the batteries are about to run out.[reply]
Also when did <html formatting> become standard to imply action, and at some point does <small> actually break or does it just continue rendering text smaller until it's less than a px? TimothyJosephWood23:50, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've seriously considered the possibility that everything he "writes" is computer-generated. It's like he's paid by the word. I'm also tickled by the "Greetings, Earthlings!" flavor here [173]. Have you visited The Museums? EEng14:34, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I guess I should stop baiting the army of ipsocks - you can almost see how he cringes at having his own words fed back to him.... but it's not worth risking a 3rr violation. It has cheered me right up, though. Hopefully some admin will close the afd soon and put the article out of its misery. --bonadeacontributionstalk18:57, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what you're talking about. This back and forth as we home in on a subset of the subject's publications which concisely reflect his artistic outlook is Wikipedia collaboration at its best. EEng19:30, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If it's in your hand, then yes! By the way, I just noticed that one of your categories, just below, turned into an italic font, and thus: [174]. Clearly, the humor-impaired have you in their sights! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:37, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So in this case "deletion" means that the categories are still there and in use, but if you click on a category name you go to the parent category and have to click again on the "Redirected from" link to see the actual list of pages in the category? And some editors think that making this sort of "improvement" counts as constructive activity on Wikipedia? Hmm. (By the way, EEng, your "most illegible bachelor" joke on the Ozee AfD made me actually laugh out loud. So thanks for that.) —David Eppstein (talk) 23:13, 2 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I can't believe you fell for the ol' "My ma and pa have been married for 35 years!" bit. I have to thank you for the "illegible bachelor", however; I'll add it to my bag of tricks. EEng01:46, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Praying mantis
It's happy hour, and I was refreshing my memory for intelligent jokes on your user page. Why? I dunno because most of them travel way beyond the thought processes of my happy hour companions (I drink alone)...BUT I came across the image of the green praying mantis WP:NPP, and paused for a moment of introspective...several seconds, in fact...and here I am. I cannot personally relate to the role of the green praying mantis....BUT...my concern is that I may inadvertently be one. My OCD would never allow forgiveness...so I'm here to consult (what I perceive to be) an expert in math and possibly even economics (which may be a stretch) - all the while not knowing how on earth I came to such a conclusion. I would normally indulge in a little hero worship by consulting Tryptofish, who may not know everything, but does an excellent job making me believe he does. However, your brilliant wit and user name won out in this instance (and probably invoked a sigh of relief from Tryp). Regardless, whatever you share with me - positive or negative - it is understood that your input is limited to that of an observer which affords me the opportunity to contemplate and hopefully make a proper decision so that I don't ever become a green praying mantis. A-CEEI_mechanism. Atsme📞📧22:23, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty sure it's not a delete -- I think the only question is whether it should be merged to the CE article. Paging my go-to guy on applied math, David Eppstein. (BTW, D.E., I suppose you've run into Harry Lewis at some point. He's just decided to retire. <sniff>) EEng22:37, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Tryptofish does not know everything – just more than EEng does. Harry Lewis? He goes back to when I was a student (circa ancient history). I'm amazed he hadn't retired earlier. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:43, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I know who Lewis is, of course (I seem to have first edited his article in 2009), but I can't recall whether we've ever actually met. My strongest connection on the Harvard faculty is to Michael Mitzenmacher (three-time co-author). A larger number of my co-authors are at that other school in Cambridge... —David Eppstein (talk) 00:26, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So, this violist is coming home from a gig (that's not the joke). He stops to get some groceries, and as he's standing in the checkout line he realizes, to his horror, that he parked under a streetlight and left his viola on the back seat in plain view! He drops his bags and sprints outside, but it's too late: somebody has already smashed the back window and thrown in three more violas. FourViolas (talk) 03:08, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I shutter to ask...unhinged...in a storm...in Key West...after visiting the 100 bars...one of which Jimmy Buffet frequented...or was it Hemingway? I'm THERE! What was my question? No, wait, no question - just a comment - enjoying the break afforded me by the famous "bar keepers friend"...although I think maybe that refers to a different bark eeper...ohhhh, did Tryp get a lobobotomy...my head hurts, said Phineas. And now I shall mount my trusty motorcycle, wait - thought I rode up here on a horse - anyway my iPhone has GPS which I'll set to HOME as soon as I can find where I put it...not my horse, my iPhone - hope I trained that sucker to read GPS - not my iPhone, my horse. I'm pretty sure it's here somewhere, and will let you know when/if I arrive home...or if I don't. (I hear spanking next door...but wait, there are two adults - do we have an article on that?) Atsme📞📧00:09, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thx for all the well wishes. I actually fell off my bike laughing after reading the following very real AfD for which Jytdog awarded EEng a well-deserved barnstar: I find no road trip is complete without a stop at one of the better retail establishments for some steel wool. I find the No. 000 especially... soothing. Great for exfoliating. Now it all makes sense why I received a phone call from Cargill here on island. They are justifiably concerned about EEng's promotional statement considering exfoliation is a big part of their business (aside from road salt). Cargill's sea salt scrub for women who believe the R-complex may dominant their triune brain as they age is a major income producer, and warrants serious concern over the competition they'll now be facing from Brillo as a result of EEng's statement. Atsme📞📧01:12, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm offended...nobody got a rise out of responded to my humor. Guess it's back to hero worshipping for me.23:33, 5 March 2017 (UTC)Atsme📞📧23:31, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, nice - now you've resorted to torture. I'll be dreaming about a hero (or is it spelled gyro?) for the next 2 months! It's like one of those songs you hear that refuses to vacate your thoughts...perhaps a dose of Pepto Bismol would help clear the mind. You may be thinking, well, Atsme, such torture is not unlike a relentless (talk page stalker) who fills one's TP full of rhetorical bull💩 during Happy Hour...although ...💡💡💡💡... FOUR VOILAS!! (not intending to throw FourViolas off-base because of the close spelling). We don't have heros/gyros on this island, so it may be a worthy business endeavor I am now inspired to pursue. Ok, I will depart quietly and leave this page to the whims of....whatever. I hear an active crowd cheering a guy who is playing a guitar & singing the Bee Gees song, "How Can You Mend A Broken Heart". Atsme📞📧02:18, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Just one very important mention...
In space, no-one can hear you archive EEng's talk page. But it doesn't load any faster there, either. Thoughts of Julian, and Phineus prior to his becoming shish-kabob. I heard somebody stole her smartphone, and started posting all kinds of steamy stuff on some Harvard dude's talk page.
Ritchie333, and how exactly do we gage (no freaking pun intended!!) the level of necessity where EEng is concerned? He's off the charts, affectionally speaking. Ok, so my curiosity led me to the following discovery - a purely mathematical computation demonstrated below (and I'm no math whiz):
Total of EEng's archives, 4 mind you, only 4 TP archives totaling 859 kB beginning with the 1st archive thread dated 13 November 2008, Thursday (8 years, 3 months, 28 days ago), and the last archive thread dated 24 October 2016, Monday (4 months, 16 days ago) which averages out to be 2 archives/YEAR. Now get a load of this...the current TP total is 1626 kB - nearly double the size of all 4 archives. I wonder if he takes the time to tie his shoes, or maybe he wears Sperry Topsiders. Regardless, I'd say the man is growing in popularity, wouldn't you? Gotta love it!! Cheers Atsme📞📧22:28, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well clearly EEng is compensating for something with the size of his talk page. Mind you, your user page has you hob-nobbing with the stars on an ego trip; when are you going to put up the picture of "Sacred Betty Wills and The Pope in an audience at The Vatican", "Supreme Overlord Betty Wills with Kim Jong Il at the Best North Korean Rally in the World ever (volume 3)" and .... of course .... "Dedicated Wikipedian Betty Wills sharing a 'fun' moment with Jimbo Wales" (although who the "fun" was being had by is left as an exercise for the reader". Ritchie333(talk)(cont)22:38, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I would upload them tomorrow if I could remember where I put my image archives!! I'm pretty sure my papal days date back to when I was 10 or 11, determined to become a nun. Fortunately, time wounds all heals, and the rumors about the "cloth" finally caught up and frightened a lot of parents. I really was "saved", so my aspirations went from being a patron of the church to aspirations of becoming the first female jockey at Churchill Downs. My main obstacles were the many talented male jockeys. As for Kim...I'll be kind and just say I never really liked "Gangnam Style". Now Jimbo is a different story...if he looked more like Julian Assange, we would not be having this discussion...which reminds me, I have a few words I wouldn't mind sharing with Pamela Anderson. Atsme📞📧23:09, 10 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think your humour's quite intelligent, actually. Indeed, the comparison here is that this guy appeared to be writing serious computing history drafts, and got stung by admins who didn't have his sense of humour. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)23:27, 15 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(talk page stalker) Sir, I will accept responsibility for Oshwah's use of the word "dude" which may have resulted from his diffusing an image caption I wrote during happy hour. Please, no more than 50 lashes, and diffuse them equally over both eyes using hypoallergenic glue. 👀 Atsme📞📧19:08, 18 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have to admit, your favorite referencing system works pretty well for making footnotes that link to the selected publications section. My previous method for doing that was <ref group=pubs> but then there's no way to list the pubs in a normal-sized font. On the other hand, the inconsistent indentation can be annoying; see Bruce Reed (mathematician) for an example I just tested out. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:47, 22 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The real problem with < ref>< /ref> is you can't control the order of the refs e.g. alpha. One of the most glaring missing features is a way to do that e.g. to order them in the order they're given in {reflist |refs = }}. If that existed I would probably not have bothered with inventing ran/rma.
To keep the customer satisfied I've temporarily widened the "tag" column in {rma} to 50px; take a look at Reed now. Maybe tomorrow I'll either invent {rmaw} = rma wide, or add a column-width option to {rma}. EEng05:19, 22 March 2017 (UTC) At first I thought you meant pubs. I thought: In what article is there a list of pubs, as footnotes?[reply]
I modified the rma template to take a tw=[tag width] parameter. Now Reed is all lined up again. I set the default back to 20px (but I think maybe it should have em rather than px for the units). —David Eppstein (talk) 05:22, 22 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You certainly don't let the grass grow under your feet. Thanks again for your work on Lewis; way more than I could have expected! EEng05:32, 22 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I was about to send you the same message. Don't know what to think, really. I honestly feel bad for the guy, but as recently as this year he's been denigrating other editors (including me) off-wiki, and attacking notability policies. I just don't see how he can be trusted not to repeat the immensely destructive behavior we've seen before. I'm traveling with limited bandwidth so ping me on any further developments. EEng16:20, 28 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Would it be an idea to at least report the vandalism to the Wikipedia community? No matter how much you dislike someone else, personally I wouldn't wish my worst enemy to have to experience this. Fiskje88 (talk) 10:57, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's already noted on his talk page and as the vandal is blocked I don't see what more can be done. FTR I don't dislike RY; if anything I feel sorry for him. EEng16:12, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Definite article
Do you really think the definite article improves the hook? To me, it just makes it obvious that "the horney dicks" is a nickname given to some group of people. Gatoclass (talk) 11:56, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm. If I didn't already know, I wouldn't have any idea that the phrase actually refers to a group of people, but since it strikes you that way feel free to change it back. Or maybe "some horney dicks"? I leave the choice in your capable hands. EEng13:52, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Since both of you are conveniently gathered here in this thread, I have a favor to ask. I need a GA review + DYK review of Harry R. Lewis ASAP. Could you each volunteer for one of those? It means a lot to me. EEng16:04, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Good looking out with that second link; I'd never seen it before. I'll probably post something soon, I've been crawling through it and taking notes and I don't really have much to say (but I'll say it at the review page in a bit). ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.20:44, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
EEng, I've been considering this for sometime. As to what I've been considering, I mean starting over. I don't like how we've generally left things between us because of how we've butted heads at the MOS:IMAGES guideline. Because of that, it now seems that there is some tension between us when we are involved in the same discussion; I don't think I'm imagining that. Anyway, I see you around often enough and appreciate the work you do. And I'd rather be on good terms with editors, unless they are the few who I have a significant tempestuous history with and I know we will never have a decent working relationship. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:06, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
MoS talk: ie, eg and etc
Another editor requested the discussion was made an RfC as we appeared to be going round in circles. There is some point to it, I might add, even if you do not agree. I will thank you for responding, though. --Sb2001 (talk) 00:42, 18 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"A change of this kind needs to be treated as a proper RfC and closed by a non-involved person" is what another editor said, because you seemed to be trying to close the discussion yourself with your own proposal as the conclusion. This is a nonstarter and a waste of time. Sorry, but I'm grumpy tonight and you really should have realized this by now. EEng00:47, 18 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, yeah - well go ahead and cake it on...but wait for the best part: the icing on the cake...yep...WAIT FOR IT....and just keep waiting cuz it may never come. It needs a hook that only EEng can provide. Atsme📞📧19:46, 22 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
At first I thought he was kidding EEng, and then I realized the new forum will be held in the newly formed Angry Mob Court presided over by none other than Judge Roy Bean. Their main objective is to lighten the load of ArbCom. Atsme📞📧20:47, 23 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hola, I have fixed[177][178] two cite errors you introduced[179][180] in January. Months after the fact, it took me about 30 minutes to hunt them down (WikiBlame was no help for this purpose). Please watch for introduction of this type of cite error, especially when making major edits to well-cited articles. Gracias, adios. ―Mandruss☎21:31, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I made 170 edits which removed 25% of this badly overdetailed article, and the only thing that went wrong was that I accidentally killed two sources? I think I should get a medal. Nonetheless this vexes me, as I do try to be careful in such things. Thanks for noticing and fixing. EEng02:12, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, if only people got what they deserved, here and everywhere. Thanks for making 170 edits which removed 25% of that badly overdetailed article, assuming that's what happened (I haven't conducted that review). ―Mandruss☎07:00, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, turns out that was just the decrease in raw source size. I checked just now, and in terms of rendered text, the reduction was to 8,200 words from 13,200, a decrease of 40%. And to my astonishment, I got almost no pushback. It was amazingly bloated. EEng17:36, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for being one of Wikipedia's top medical contributors!
please help translate this message into your local language via meta
The 2016 Cure Award
In 2016 you were one of the top ~200 medical editors across any language of Wikipedia. Thank you from Wiki Project Med Foundation for helping bring free, complete, accurate, up-to-date health information to the public. We really appreciate you and the vital work you do! Wiki Project Med Foundation is a user group whose mission is to improve our health content. Consider joining here, there are no associated costs.
Great! Last time I was only in the top 300[181]. Presumably 100 of them died off after following the advice in my medical contributions. EEng18:40, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
misplaced comment?
I'm pretty sure this was a mistake: [182] So I fixed it here: [183] I don't normally alter other people's talk page comments but this seemed pretty clear-cut. Sorry if I've misinterpreted. Kendall-K1 (talk) 19:02, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You have been blocked temporarily from editing for harassing other users. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may request an unblock by first reading the guide to appealing blocks, then adding the following text to the bottom of your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.
Astoundingly atrociously poor block - Given the tenor and context of that ANI discussion, one would think that a bit of leeway should be provided for emotional outbursts rather than resorting straight to a punitive block.--WaltCip (talk) 14:26, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree WaltCip as I was far more offended by the unwarranted allegation of racism. I thought blocks were to be used to end disruption, yet in this case, it appears the disruption of changing an entire categorization norm and the unwarranted allegation of racism remains a nonissue. I am very disheartened over this block. Atsme📞📧14:45, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sometimes some of us act like disruptive pricks, and sometimes we tell others when they do. A block can be a handy reminder to dial it back down. I know I've had a few bad blocks, too. This will pass. Dicklyon (talk) 14:49, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Either myself, or the blocking admin, requires a refresher in English. Probably myself.Jrcla2 was offering a way to see what you're doing as the result of a cultural difference rather than you just being a disruptive prick. Where in this is EEng actually calling Djln Djln a "disruptive prick"? My reading of this is that EEng is telling Djln that Jrcla2 was suggesting an alternative explanation for Djln's inability to understand the issue that did not resort to calling Djln a "disruptive prick". The reason for EEng to bring this up is obviously the fact that Djln telling Jrcla that they are being "borderline racist" is an extremely prick-like thing to do in response to a non-prick-like explanation. On top of the fact that making mass changes to categories is (or could be readily construed as) disruptive. I.e., In other words "you're Irish and so might not understand American Football" does not deserve the response of "that's racist". I can't really think of another way to spell this out. Mr rnddude (talk) 16:00, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Mr. Dude's interpretation is 100% correct (and despite WaltCip's comment, emotionalism played no part in what I posted). Like His Arbship said,
EEng (despite his block log, which is not as bad as it looks at first glance if you understand it)...
It's a shame this is happening on a Sunday, when so many of my glittering array of talk page stalkers are, of course, in church; think of the bon mots we're missing out on! EEng17:40, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
John, while I've warned EEng about inappropriate jokes in the past, if this diff is really your sole basis for a 48-hour block (I assume it is, given that it's the only diff you've offered in your block notice) it's one of the worst blocks I've ever seen. Please reconsider it—the drama of an arbcom case will waste everybody's time and the result of any such case is an utterly foregone conclusion. ‑ Iridescent17:56, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@John, This looks like a good case for you coming to this page and posting something like, "Hey EEng, this was not helpful or constructive." That would be about as effective as a surprise block, minus the extra drama. ~Awilley (talk)18:37, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Bishonen enters, stage left, to the relief of cowering talk page stalkers.
Unblocked #2
I've asked User:John to lift the block, as I think it was based on a misunderstanding — basically, I agree with Mr rnddude's comment here — and have notified him that in case he isn't online, I'll do it myself. He doesn't seem to be, so here goes: you have been unblocked. Bishonen | talk17:59, 7 May 2017 (UTC).[reply]
Thanks, Bishonen. Our sovereign lord Jimbo chargeth and commandeth all persons, being assembled, immediately to disperse themselves, and peaceably to depart to their habitations, or to their lawful business, upon the pains contained in the act made in the first year of the Arbitration Committee, for preventing tumults and riotous assemblies. God save Jimbo!EEng18:11, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I would say post a humorous comment at this sub-thread review of your block, but, I'm afraid of it earning you another block. Personally, I'd just leave an "Overturn block" and sign. Slightly taunting. That's just my sense of humour though. Mr rnddude (talk) 18:16, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'd of commented sooner, just got around to this (I stalk only when I see a lot of activity in a short amount of time, which usually means some of the best entertainment on Wikipedia). I read the discussion, think all people who over-categorize should be topic-banned, and finally came to your perfectly reasonable assessment of the situation and just the appropriate amount of EEngness EEngitude to catch the editor's attention enough for things to be better absorbed. I'd say "nice work", and we've all learned a bit more about the way all points of view have to be considered by everybody, as far as is possible. Randy Kryn19:00, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The following is actually how I have always related to the slang use of the word: Prick (slang)#PsychologyThe prick, in some crazy way, is feminine....The prick does not play by the rules: he (she) is a narcisstic [sic] tease who persuades by means of attraction and resistance, not by orderly systemic discourse. The latter interpretation is harmless and how I've always perceived its use. In fact, my fun Wiki❤️ banner confirms my position, so I hope there's no chance of blockage if I use them as [FBDB]. Atsme📞📧18:15, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Just to be clear, I did not in any way suggest the other editor was a prick (whatever the interpretation of that). I was saying that another editor was trying hard not to do that. EEng18:22, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A reminder: gender-neutral obscenities only, please
Duplicated here, for the enlightenment of those assembled, from User talk:John (where the discussion was peremptorily hatted immediately after this post):
Do you get some sort of kick out of causing disruption by using gendered obscenities, EEng? If not, why don't you go and learn from your lucky escape instead of joking about it like it was some sort of badge of pride? Also, do you stand by your comment I highlighted in the diff above? If you do, I agree with The Rambling Man that you may quickly work up to another block. If you don't, you should reflect on what a fool you've made of yourself and the degree of disruption you have caused with your unsolicited intervention at AN/I; two blocks and one unblock, so far. --John (talk) 6:07 pm, Today (UTC−4)
Answers:
do you stand by your comment I highlighted: If you're talking about [185], yes I do.
Do you get some sort of kick out of causing disruption by using gendered obscenities I take no more delight in obscenities than in any other words chosen to do their job. But I'm fascinated by this idea of gendered obscenities. I notice you didn't object to my saying, earlier in the same thread, of "Oh for fuck sake"; is that OK because you see fuck as ungendered? If so, I think that's very narrow of you: what if it's a gay male fuck? Or a lesbian fuck (if there is such a thing, I guess)? I think you need to reflect on your heterosexist biases.
disruption... two blocks and one unblock: Well let's see... one of the blocks was the one you imposed; the unblock was an Arbcom member reversing the block after giving you time to do it yourself; and the other block was someone who got understandably pissed off at you for imposing the block which the Arbcom member reversed after giving you time to do it yourself. So really, I think the disruption's all on you.
reflect on what a fool you've made of yourself: Speaking of reflection, look in the mirror.
unsolicited intervention at AN/I: Is there solicited intervention at ANI? Can I get on a list???
your lucky escape: If Trump ever needs a new press secretary, you'd be a great candidate.
badge of pride: If there's any pride, it's at being part of a community robust enough to self-correct so promptly and decisively.
Alas, I am late, as usual, to the block party. (But no, I wasn't in church.) So, if I follow the situation correctly, it is OK to say "fuck" or "cunt" (the latter having been an entire ArbCom case a few years back), but no good to say "prick". I'm not sure that I can figure out my own thoughts on this, but I am simultaneously in agreement that it's good to be "part of a community robust enough to self-correct so promptly and decisively", and yet also wishing for more WP:CIVIL. Facepalm Anyway, I'm glad about the self-correction, and sorry that it was needed in the first place. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:30, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You have been astoundingly atrociously cockblocked for pussy-grabbing other users. Once the cockblock has expired, you are welcome to make welcome advances. If you think there are good reasons why you should be uncockblocked, you may request an uncockblock by first reading the guide to unappealing cockblocks, then adding the following text to the bottom of your talk page: {{fbdb|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.
PS: Check out the hatnote at the top of Cockblock. It's museum-worthy! --Tryptofish (talk) 9:21 pm, Today (UTC−4)
Honestly, I think that the behaviour of a few admins involved here was completely unacceptable (and to think we nearly had a WP:WHEEL situation too). I just read the hatnote, however, and it made me laugh. Anyway, there we have it - another block for your hall of fame, eh EEng? [FBDB]Patient Zerotalk13:14, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Guerre des roues
Admins wheeling
An admin is threatening another admin with a block! [186]
Diagram showing interrelationship of noticeboard discussions, userpage discussion, relevant block logs, and so on
Pricks and ruffled feathers
How To Avoid Pricks
When you land in a place that is prickly at best,
And feathers get ruffled – you've disturbed someone's nest;
Be cautious when offering friendly advice,
Or you'll suddenly find your two orbs in a vise.
Lessons are learned, but to do so takes practice,
To avoid getting pricked when you land on a cactus.
Yes, thank you. I also shot the scene with the parakeets, which took place about 50 ft. from my window...and heard the sounds that accompany the ruffled feathers as the birds played their game of thorns. Atsme📞📧04:54, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, my - I didn't mean to come across as 🎣 for a compliment but thank you! I was actually eluding to the sounds of squawking Caribbean parakeets with their feathers ruffled which can be quite loud and boisterous...not unlike whistle britches' recent outburst. [187]Atsme📞📧16:51, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
See that? Start a talk section about pricks, and the discussion goes quickly to size. But no, it's actually "awesomely annoying". --Tryptofish (talk) 21:39, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
For anyone out there who does not believe temptation is placed in our paths to test us, please consider that there is, right now – today of all days – an ANI thread centered on this user. Talk about potential for gendered obscenities! EEng02:01, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A rogue-like mod on a roguelike MMORPG
Just came from some admin's TP with some (pithy) support for you and the general situation at a certain MOSsy talk page.
I have loved CS Lewis's children's books all my life. But, even as a kid, I thought Aslan (that's you) came off as a bit of a self-righteous prick a lot of the time, despite (or maybe because of) his unassailably pure intentions. But what they fucking did to him, no joy in that. Chin up, buddy. Primergrey (talk) 08:12, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Good God! I guess I didn't read up far enough. I stopped after the funny bits and missed all the drama. (I recall once telling you it wasn't your strong suit.) I wish I'd seen it in real time. I would've advised you to claim some sort of strong, recent, interest in all things Canadian. We throw pricks around left and right and no one feels too hard done by. Primergrey (talk) 00:56, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
RHB 100 ANI comment
I spent over 25 minutes writing and rewriting by big comment (half of which is his words) and then you come along and not only better capture everything I was trying to say, but you also get results from Robert. HOW!? d.g. L3X1(distant write)00:07, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Already added the red link on my TP. Do we have "User" Categories or is there concern that it would overwhelm En WP Categories? Atsme📞📧22:26, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be happy to be in a category of users dishonored by that! Hey, did you just create another one of those red categories in user space? Somebody block this person! [FBDB] --Tryptofish (talk) 21:06, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, I used the [[:Category:blah blah]] syntax, which merely links to a category without placing the present page in the category. I'm telling you this because I know you'd want to be enlightened. EEng21:52, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and that was the right thing to do! Alas, poor Atsme was led astray, and went ahead and put a variation of the category, in full, on her user talk page. So I went ahead and turned it blue, and put it in the quarantine parent category. Y'all can thank me later. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:07, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
When a whip isn't enough, the valiant knights of the EEng Roundtable will come to the rescue.
I was indeed led astray Tryptofish but I maintain faith in the valiant Knights of the EEng Roundtable to honor their call to duty and correct any threatening edits that will cause irreparable damage to the kingdom...like the fire breathing red link categories that have caused good editors to be consumed by the hellpit kingdom of ANI. This damsel in distress thanks you! Atsme📞📧22:38, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Quite honorable...as long as we don't have to involuntarily attend another block party. If the latter turns out to be the case, my preferred music would be Staying Alive. Atsme📞📧21:17, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The 🎶 at that link stirred memories of basement clubs with blue lights, huge speakers, yoga pads and rows of big pillows on the floor, sugar cubes and hand-rolled cigarettes. ✌🏻Atsme📞📧12:46, 11 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I did some digging and it looks unlikely that he's lying about his claims (I will not dismiss the possibility, however). But I stand by my assertion that people who feel the need to convince others of their abilities rarely demonstrate strong abilities. I suspect the reason he's so hot about all the "mistakes" in the articles might not be the objective accuracy of those articles. I'm not even being slightly facetious, by the way. A great deal of experience has taught me never to trust a braggart and I honestly can't recall a single exception. I still think this is a case in which editor retention should be a secondary concern. That being said, I understand your position and don't intend to argue the point past this explanation of my own view. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.22:25, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've dug too, and unless the account is an impersonation there's no question he actually is all the things he says he is. I'm trying to cut him some slack for generational differences. An academic expert I have great, great respect for had an almost impossible time understanding our OR and SYNTH policies, and why experts have no special weight per se; a lot of it had to do with not understanding the fundamentally unprecedented nature of online social ecosystems. EEng22:40, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
After you've had a chance to redirect this editor into something useful; if he proves incapable of contributing I'll tell you an interesting anecdote about my father. If he turns out to be quite helpful in other areas, though... Well, just rub it in my face at my talk page. ;) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.22:59, 10 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
X-day/week "embargo" on articles on breaking-news topics
For those in a hurry, I've taken the liberty of putting the proposal highlights in bold. -- EEng
Have you made your 3-month proposal anywhere? If you haven't started an RFC about it somewhere, then I guess the first thing to do would be to figure out where the RFC ought to be located, and whether similar ideas have already been rejected. Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:35, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Anythingyouwant, I really do think it would be highly salutary, but it would be a seismic shift in policy. If a number of very respected editors got behind it informally, and work out some details (like what counts as being out of the headlines, so to speak) then we could propose it formally. But I'm not holding my breath. EEng23:38, 17 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There could simply be a rule that no article at Wikipedia can rely upon any source that is less than three months old, except to update information that is outdated. Anythingyouwant (talk) 01:08, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I don't think we want to forbid an article on a new asteroid or something. Maybe it's things in certain topic areas? What we'd be trying to prevent, I guess I know it when I see it, but it's hard to define. EEng06:39, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Randomly chiming in here: the topic areas this proposal should affect, in my opinion, is politics and crimes. Too many times do I see hastily made articles all revolving around these areas of interest as soon as the ink dries in the presses. I do not believe crimes, in this context, should extend to terrorist attacks. Some editors may be turned off by the 3-month time period, others by how to go about policing this policy. But I believe you have a truly brilliant idea going on here; hopefully, this is pursued further. I offer you my support!TheGracefulSlick (talk) 07:08, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It might be helpful to choose a sample set of articles as test cases, or imagine hypothetical articles. I was considering the case of a trial with political implications where the defendant is acquitted – not reporting the acquittal for three months would not be ideal.
The nature, frequency and quantity of news has changed so much in the last decade I wonder whether this is a solution to that problem or a band aid. Or maybe a solution to a problem distinct from this other problem. Whichever it is some solution is necessary. The short-term and long-term effects of editors using breaking news articles to shape perception and even reporting in some cases are significant, not only in terms of disruption but it attracts exactly the wrong kind of editor. James J. Lambden 🇺🇸 (talk) 16:43, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Three months is excessive, but a cool-off period of 3 days on creating articles based on political "breaking news" would be most welcome. That would help "break" the tyranny of the headline-grabbing news cycle. Asteroids are apolitical, so astronomers are safe. — JFGtalk08:16, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Followed from ANI, but it sounds like a reasonable idea. I have seen so many articles pop up within hours of breaking news only to be abandoned within a week or two. Generally though the initial AFD it is all the historic significance of this or that, we MUST keep it etc etc etc. Then dead. Three days sounds a lot easier to swallow and get people to agree to I think, perhaps even up to five but might be a bit much. BTW Chelyabinsk meteor would disagree with you. Clearly the asteroid was working with Obama to attack the Russians. PackMecEng (talk) 14:03, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Three months, it said. I warmed up my snotty responses for this, then discovered (after waiting for this page to load, and scrolling for hours) that it isn't block related. It is the basis of a good idea though. -Roxy the dog.bark15:51, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think of this idea as a temporary "embargo" on creating an article on new topic. The idea is to avoid the huge waste -- in terms of editor time, frequent ANI visits, AfD disputes, sockpuppetry, etc. -- that often comes with editing an articles during the initial period when there's new stuff coming out all the time, arguments about conflicting sources, high emotions, and so on.
My original idea was that something would need to be "out of the headlines" for a stated period before we start an article on it. This way, lots of sources are available, erroneous "breaking news" reports which turn out not to be true are in better perspective. I don't quite see how to define that though. For American topics of national interest, this might mean something like there's been no front-page story on it in the NYT or Washington Post or [insert more here] for X weeks. This would have to be carefully defined if endless arguments are to be avoided.
So here's another idea, weaker but much easier to define. How about if an article on topic X is embargoed until the initial sources are at least time=T old? That doesn't mean the topic's not still in the headlines but at least it will have some maturity and perspective, and notability issues will be much clearer. How about that? If T was even ten days that might help immensely.
Imagine all the trouble that would have been saved if the Comey article was just being started now. And who is served by an instant article on the first day something like that happens? A mess of conflicting claims and quotes from various people, first unbalanced one way, then the other. Our readers could turn on CNN for that. We're an encyclopedia for the ages, not today's news. That's why Wikinews is a separate project.
Here's another example. Sometime in the next 48 hours someone's gonna create an article with a title like "Proposed impeachment of Donald Trump". Now, I have little doubt such an article will be created some day. But what will the edit history and Talk page of such an article look like if it was started today? And how, in these first ten days, would such an article serve our readers any better than reading the news? EEng16:27, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
One day I am gong to write the essay WP:TRUMPSCANDALAFD, because its basically guaranteed at this point. NOTNEWS has no teeth anymore, and while Wikinews exists, I'm under the impression that it is basically dead. I personally would very strongly support some sort of pause-period that would avoid TRUMPSCANDALAFD, but the fact that many of these articles are snow kept even when they are in horrible shape suggests to me that we aren't likely to get consensus for it. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:08, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I see my impeachment example was ill-chosen, because it's too diffuse a topic. I think the idea makes the most sense for "event" articles like Comey's firing, disappearing airplanes, and so on. Let's keep brainstorming. EEng17:46, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
To help with the brainstorm, here are some recent examples:
2017 Mexico–United States diplomatic crisis – Hastily created in the heat of testy exchanges between two North American presidents at the end of January, one of them performing a rage quit (oh joy, a red link!). Nothing happened since. Article is dangling, with a feeble attempt to shoehorn some minor thing in February, that not even the Lügenpresse calls a "crisis".
Tim Nolan (Trump campaign official) – Dude was arrested for child trafficking and assorted sex crimes, obviously doesn't meet WP:PERPETRATOR notability standards for criminals, but lo and behold, he once supported Trump so he gets his 15 minutes of fame and the AfD mob is tending towards a strong keep, because reasons. With a three-day cool-down period, I bet this scumb** would have remained in well-deserved obscurity.
In summary, my hunch would be to suggest a 3-day ban on creating new articles based on "breaking news" in the political domain. People could still add such stuff in existing articles, but at least they would get some eyeballs to evaluate due weight, and we might avoid AfD drama, link-spamming of navboxes or See also sections in dozens of marginally related articles, and monstrous cleanup tasks when finally the pile of rambling "he said-she said" quotes has to be sorted and summarized into something vaguely encyclopedic and readable (while being accused of censorship). Another bonus: existing articles on controversial subjects are often restricted to some degree, whereas new articles are a free-for-all until an admin wakes up and slaps an 1RR/DS restriction which nobody understands, and we spend more time explaining the sanctions than editing or even arguing the merits of the edits... Thoughts? Choice of venue? Popcorn? — JFGtalk23:43, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Collapse complaints from someone who (and I am not making this up) thinks I'm part of a conspiracy to suppress or soft-pedal anti-Trump material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EEng (talk • contribs) 17:20, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Gee, all of these "recent examples" have to do with, wait for it, wait for it, wait for it... news stories which make Trump look bad! Holy crap what an amazing coincidence! A suspicious person might get the idea that the purpose behind this proposal is NOT to actually address any existing problem on Wikipedia, but rather to prevent the media reports on the Trump presidency from being written about on Wikipedia, for as long as possible. I mean that would explain a lot, but, you know, AGF and all, I'm sure nobody would be that cynical, so this correlation between the proposal and the news-that-makes-Trump-look-bad must be just a coincidence! Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:37, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Marek cut it out with the ABF snark, will you? During campaign season, there were plenty such "breaking news" about Hillary Clinton's alleged misdeeds or disease or whatnot and they damn well shouldn't have gotten their own article either. Shit doesn't care which way the wind blows. — JFGtalk08:11, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
But that's exactly the point JFG. You weren't running around demanding that we "embargo" news stories when Clinton was in the news, where you? If I'm wrong about that, my apologies. If I'm right than my ABF snark stands.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:53, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Volunteer Marek: Your "evidence" is circumstantial at best. Nothing is ever as black-and-white as chronic ABF-failers make them out to be. The world just ain't that simple. ABF is nothing more than hyper-cynicism, a tendency to suspect foul play when there is any explanation that could justify the suspicion. The community has done everything possible to prevent this kind of thinking and set the bar higher, as evidenced in the first bullet of the nutshell at WP:AGF. You are not even close to the clear evidence required there. I don't know whether the instigator of this initiative has a rep for Trump POV-pushing (have you shown that?), but I know damn well I don't and I don't think many of the others interested in this do either. Now try to get a grip and stop it, please. No stick ever needed dropping more. ―Mandruss☎16:25, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think that at all and nowhere have I said that. I *do* think that the reason why JFG (and a couple others) are so gung ho on this proposal IS because they're annoyed by all the Trump-looks-bad stories that have come out recently. How else do you explain his ... peculiar, choice of examples? They're all exactly what I say they are - recent Trump-looks-bad news stories. You? I think your intentions are good and noble, but yeah, these guys are trying to use you. Anyway, since this has no chance in hell of succeeding, that's all from me.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:18, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't care what their motives are. Trump looks like an incompetent narcissistic idiot whether an article on something he's done appears right away or three days later. So our only question is whether we're going to squander the substantial resources sucked up during those first three days, or conserve them. (Please note that I'm not saying Trump's an incompetent narcissistic idiot, just that he looks like an incompetent narcissistic idiot.) EEng21:39, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Volunteer Marek: Your recurring aspersions are disappointing. For the record, I spent countless hours defending the primary season pages of both Democratic and Republican parties against vandals and sneaky bad-faith editors, and I have dozens of witnesses who appreciated my work then. At that time, the most aggressive were Bernie Bros spewing all kinds of nonsense theories against an imagined cabal of paid Hillary shills. So, the examples I choose today are Trumpian because that's what shows up on the radar. Rewind a year to springtime 2016 and I'd be busy whacking a different set of moles. Apologies to EEng for bludgeoning his neatly-collapsed thread, but I won't stand to be disparaged. — JFGtalk23:01, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In spite of the fact that we have WP:NOTNEWS, I have long been bothered by the same things, and I think this would be a very good idea. So now, I'm going to rain on the parade. Never gonna happen. There are simply too many other users who will show up at an RfC and say no! no! because they love to do instant news edits, plus all the others who never like anything that would be a change. It will never get consensus. Just won't. But I'll take you up on the popcorn. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:56, 18 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So would we define breaking news as "all sources which form the basis of the topic's notability are less than X days old"? (Let's keep the X flexible for now.)EEng00:34, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Another argument favouring such a cool-off period: in the heat of the news cycle, as mere mortals feverishly scan their TV while editing, reporters who missed the initial scoop come and pickup further clues on Wikipedia, resulting in a fertile breeding ground for citogenesis. Very hard to track down in the brouhaha, although I'm pretty sure it happened. Optimists call it collective intelligence… — JFGtalk01:07, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging a coupla random wise people for their thoughts. (I'd like to start the discussion small, so this is a random subset that comes to mind -- don't be offended if I left you out.) Iridescent, Bishonen, Drmies, Dweller. EEng15:55, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I seldom engage in such articles either, but we all see/deal with the fireworks related to them at the noticeboards. EEng17:13, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(I will never look at sparrows the same way again, alas!) There are more urgent things that need to be improved with the way Wikipedia operates than putting a time delay on political news articles (see my user page). But I agree that when a Wikipedia article is at the top of Google News, there is enormous pressure encouraging some editors to be amateur opinion journalists here at Wikipedia. Even for longstanding Wikipedia articles, such pressure is often evident, but it gets magnified a hundred fold for new newsy articles. A time delay might make things a bit more boring behind the scenes at Wikipedia, but sometimes boring is good (just ask Elon Musk!). Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:01, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I saw this unfold and wanted to wait a bit to see what other had to say before weighing in. Here's my opinion: Wikipedia is not the news because it does not give a hoot about Homicide #17 of Oklahoma City, the lorry that overturned on the M6, or the three hoodlums who skipped school and are now raking leaves in the park. Wikipedia rights about whatever is notable. When the stabbings happened at Ohio State, I didn't read any other opinion piece from what we call the news service, I read our article on it (granted, it was 18 hours old by the time I got around to it). James Comey's dismissal is definitely notable, and so was Brexit and Deepwater Horizon. Putting a delay in creation that is longer than a reasonable 48 hours does not do an ounce (kg if you're metric) of good. I feel that if anything should be proposed, it should be a 30 day deletion insurance: If an article with a credible hint of notability (think A7) is created and does not qualify for any speedy deletion criteria (e.g. Attack page, advertising, gibberish) and has at least X reliable sources at the bottom, it may not be nominated for deletion for at least a month. Something like that. Remember when United Express (exercised their rights) threw David Dao off the 3411? AE3411 ended up being notable, and Dao was deleted. By trying to enforce NOTNEWS while being oblivious to the world going crazy over the situation, they nominators basically ensured a Keep !outcome and took up a lot of time that could have been spent improving the article. About now is the time to check for SUSTAINED, and to nominate the articles if those editors still desire. And they all went on to SNOW uphold at DelReview as well (quite predictable, and a little bludgeony given the number of proper editors who !voted) Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and notable events are covered here. (I notice Danielle "cash me ousside" Bregoni has a redirect and no article). TLDR: if its notable it stays, and AfD should be forbidden under specific circumstances to prevent time wasting. Thats what I think. d.g. L3X1(distant write)21:55, 19 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Shaping a proposal
Taking into account both this thread and the parallel thread at ANI, there's at least some hope for some version of something like this getting some serious consideration. Who would like to be pinged when I'm ready to start seriously shaping a proposal (which might be a week+ from now)? Add your ~~~ (three ~s) below, please. Pinging Drmies, Softlavender, Ritchie333, David Eppstein to see if they can be tempted into helping. Others, feel free to ping in others you think can help.EEng03:12, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Where should this generic proposal be submitted? In closing the ANI thread, NeilN suggested WP:VPP. Thoughts? I'm not familiar with proposing site-wide RfCs. Hopefully it doesn't end up at WP:PERENNIAL. My hunch would be to suggest this in a limited-scope subject area, such as US politics, so the community could ascertain its effectiveness on real-life cases without disturbing the bulk of Wikipedia. Is there a venue for this? WT:WikiProject Politics/American politics perhaps? That place looks strangely inactive. — JFGtalk02:59, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I guess Village Pump, but let's worry about that after we know what we want to propose. I'd like to do this here, "between friends", before widening the circle. EEng03:08, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'll wait until there's a fleshed out proposal before I offer an opinion, but I did want to comment to say VPP is really the only possible venue (short of a specialized RfC page that is cross-posted to WP:CENT, WP:VPP, etc - a CENT posting will also be needed). Anything less public than VPP doesn't have the broad reach necessary to change something as well-grounded in broad community consensus as our base notability guidelines. ~ Rob13Talk03:23, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to continue constructive conversation here. For the moment, please let's just skip comments which only say it's a bad idea, will never be adopted, etc. None of that can be known until there's an actual proposal to discuss.
I'm pretty busy for the next couple of weeksmonths, so it may be some time before I can give this the attention it deserves in order to develop a viable proposal. I'm the meantime I'm gratified by the thought being put into the discussion, which will help make whatever we come up with as good as possible.EEng
This 3-day proposal that is starting to take shape may actually make WP:NOTNEWS a legitimate policy again. Has anyone else noticed that the main arguments at AfDs for new political or crime-based articles are usually defended with WP:RUSH? It defeats the very foundation of NOTNEWS because keep voters claim sources will soon arise which, by the way, also conflicts with WP:CRYSTALBALL. With three days, sources that may exist will actually exist.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:10, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, that's another great argument to ensure consistency of purpose: inform readers, be neutral, and dare I say combat rampant tabloïdism. — JFGtalk02:34, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This is a perfect illustration of the usefulness of the proposed cool-down period: press writes a story, editor creates article, spams it into visible places, regulars take notice, some open an AfD, others "enrich" the piece by coatracking every possible related subject. Meanwhile the same news story is copied into said related subjects. Several talk page discussions get started in parallel, replete with WP:PA, WP:LAWYERS and WP:ABF, then a week later some poor souls will pick up the crumbs and clean up the mess while dodging calls of censorship or WP:TENDinitis. If such a proposal ever has a chance to pass, the time to act is now. — JFGtalk02:31, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, that would just freeze it in an arbitrary state. Better to have nothing at all for a period.
Collapsing comments from people who don't read instructions i.e. what it says at top of this very thread: "Please let's just skip comments which only say it's a bad idea, will never be adopted, etc." — Preceding unsigned comment added by EEng (talk • contribs) 03:38, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'll be opposing this proposal, beit 3 months or 3 days—I want Wikipedia to be up-to-date, and even with all the trouble, an artificial cool-down period seems like a detriment to the project's reputation. I realise the current political climate in the US is a lot, but a pivotal shift in policy is not the way to respond to that. El_C02:51, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
What part of For the moment, please let's just skip comments which only say it's a bad idea, will never be adopted, etc. None of that can be known until there's an actual proposal to discuss do you not understand? If you think the only question is "3 months or 3 days" they you obviously didn't read the discussion above -- in fact, you didn't even read the bolded bits. EEng03:01, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Uh huh. And For the moment, please let's just skip comments which only say it's a bad idea, will never be adopted, etc.? I guess you just disagree with that too, it seems. EEng03:21, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This whole cooling off period is counter-productive to building an encyclopedia. You want people to edit this site and they edit stuff that they are interested. Right now, this stuff with Trump is hot. Will that mean that a few articles get created that shouldn't? Absolutely and there is a tool for that: WP:AFD. However, having a lot of editors focused on a subject that is likely to be of historic importance (e.g. Russian interference in the US election), sure makes it easier for that editor 5 to 10 years down the road to make a WP:FA. Moreover, getting what are very likely historic but current events in as good as shape as possible will only help the reader today. Don't fix what isn't broken My 2 cents.Casprings (talk)
Oh for god's sake, could you at least have read my plea at the top of this thread before commenting? EEng03:38, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Casprings: If you're motivated by building possibly a WP:FA "5 to 10 years down the road", then surely you can wait 2-3 days to get started. Or to push the "breaking historic news" into the lead of related articles. We can't judge what will be historical while we have our noses rubbed in today's mush. — JFGtalk08:30, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with TGS about our NOTNEWS policy which may well make Russian Intercepts on Michael Flynn a candidate for prod or even G11 when stacked with WP:BLPCRIME, WP:BREAKING and BLP policy overall. It's very disconcerting to see the frenzy, and it may very well clear a path for the same thing to start happening with the Clinton investigations et al. Lawdy, things are bad enough now trying to clear the WP:NPR backlog. Atsme📞📧03:32, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And I'll add, there's real breaking news regarding Anthony Weiner sexting scandals - WaPo, CNN, LA Times, etc. published earlier today that he pleaded guilty, but it has gone unnoticed in WP. [192] I think it demonstrates that proposed waiting period for breaking news shouldn't be an issue, and that the motivation to create "breaking news" stubs may be political which isn't helpful to the project. Atsme📞📧03:57, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, nobody can control which subject attracts the creativity of WP editors… We can't deal with politically-motivated smear jobs by blocking Tendentious Faction 1 on odd days, and Tendentious Faction 2 on even days. With the cool-down proposal, it doesn't matter which way the wind blows: readers and curators alike would get back a precious part of their sanity and life-wiki balance. — JFGtalk08:20, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note on historical value of news – Our colleague Casprings made the following argument over at the previous thread:
The key point about breaking news is that we can't judge today whether they will be historically significant. History has a pesky tendency to erase the details and focus on the essentials. So with those example, I bet that the WP:10YT situation would have "Dismissal" as a section of the James Comey article, "Russian interference" renamed either Events leading to Donald Trump's impeachment or Great Russian Hysteria of 2016–2017 (depending how history actually unfolds), and the "disclosure" article merged into a couple sentences of that one. — JFGtalk08:58, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, first there has to be verifiable evidence that a crime has been committed per WP:V, especially when a BLP is the topic. Politically motivated breaking news that cites anonymous sources could damage the credibility of the project if it turns out to be unsupported or fake news for bait & click. Our job is to make sure WP:V and WP:NPOV have been satisfied. Example: the breaking news about Weiner clearly has staying power - the man pleaded guilty so we're not dealing with allegations from anonymous sources. The only question at this point is whether or not he'll serve time and for how long. Politically based allegations disguised as "breaking news" which are obviously published by propagandists using anonymous sources can easily turn out to be an effort to boost ratings and/or increase click revenue. At the very least, if "breaking news" is going to remain in the WP landscape, a waiting period makes sense as does enforcement of our PAGs regarding such information. The main objective should be to preserve the credibility of the project and reduce the potential of unsustainable activity at AfD and ANI. Question - would it help, if it is even possible, to automatically direct articles into draft space that involve allegations of crime or are considered "breaking news", especially that which is politically motivated and includes information that fails V? I know there's a template for breaking news that should be used, but rarely is. Atsme📞📧15:12, 20 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
2017 United States-Saudi Arabia arms deal should be a paragraph in Saudi Arabia–United States relations. Interestingly, even a supporter of the article in the inevitable AfD debate says: I think this article should've been created in another two weeks. Or a month. But the notability of this arms deal is clearly significant. Deleting this particular article is pointless. And here we hit the crux of our modest proposal: if the arms deal gets more coverage in the next weeks or months, it may be spun off as its own article, but if it remains a one-day news story, then it will have been properly documented in the relevant article from the onset, and a lot of editor time and content duplication will have been saved. — JFGtalk11:10, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You'll likely have more luck getting this adopted if you add a list of exceptions. Example: A story that appears above the fold in every major world newspaper. --NeilNtalk to me03:36, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Let me say in passing that, even though this effort is temporarily dormant (see next ===-section below), people are welcome to add thoughts which may help in fashioning a proposal. Now then... Your suggestion seems to concern mostly the idea (mentioned somewhere above) that a short embargo will help put notability in better perspective, and in particular avoid starting articles on topics which turn out to be flashes in the pan. (Your point, I assume, is that if it's above the fold on most major newspapers, it's almost certainly notable -- and I agree with that.)
But notability isn't the main point of an embargo. The main point is that the reporting of breaking news is often chaotic in the extreme, especially in the early days. The point of the embargo is to give the reporting a bit of time to settle down, so things can be a little bit in perspective, early spurious reports can be weeded out, etc. Take a look at the first version of 2017 Resorts World Manila attack, started 9 hours ago [193]. It reads: On June 1, 2017, Resorts World Manila in the Philippines was the subject of a terrorist attack initially believed to be perpetrated by Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. Well, that wasn't true. What good does such an article do the reader? In fact, right on the Talk page is the following thread:
Has anyone actually read that this may not be a terror attack [194]?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 21:42, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
It may very well not be a terrorist attack, but so far ISIL has claimed responsibility (whether that be true or not) so they are regarded as the probable perpetrators until something else is proven. Inter&anthro (talk) 22:53, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
Sigh... this is why breaking news stories need a small waiting period to sort the facts. I find it terribly problematic that we cannot even confirm whether this is a coordinated attack by ISIL or a robbery gone wrong.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 23:43, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
What was missing here, but often seen in such situations, is angry edit warring over conflicting narratives by people watching different news feeds and therefore in different states of up-to-dateness. EEng03:56, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think you have to choose between putting forth a proposal that shuts down the perceived problem completely and a proposal that helps mitigate the issue and has a chance of being adopted. --NeilNtalk to me04:03, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Trump orb, whereby a meme about the inauguration picture of a counter-terrorism center got more coverage than the aforementioned center, which doesn't even have an article yet. Even without creating that, the natural insertion point was Riyadh Summit 2017 (a much shorter article than the picture story).
Another example: Talk page for June 2017 London attack[195], and the consequent ANI thread [196]. This is a typical struggle for control of the narrative of a breaking event, with tussles over interpretation of early sources etc. EEng06:36, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
EEng & JFG instant news is like "instant grits"...tasteless and without substance. I prefer homemade grits that have substance and are seasoned with a bit of salt and real butter. Seriously, we're seeing the same feeding frenzy in WP editors that we're seeing in the hungry fake news journalists pundits who are losing their jobs because they've caused their respective network ratings to plummet. No news is better than fake news. Atsme📞📧01:40, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
EEng - most recently the 3 from CNN and not so recently The Ascent of Punditry, pg 19. Having worked with CNN as a field producer back in the day, it strikes a special cord for me to see the deterioration of ethical journalism. Some of the sources used by MSM are less credible than those used by WP, and that's sad. Atsme📞📧02:43, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The resignations are a sign that standards are being uphelp. While I regret the complete loss in the last 20 years of the formerly iron wall between straight reporting and commentary (in both broadcasting and print) you can't seriously be proposing that CNN offers "fake news". EEng02:49, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps it is a sign that standards are being upheld but based on my first-hand experiences I'm more inclined to believe it was the result of them getting caught and publicly exposed. But who the hell knows what's true anymore? The repeal of the Smith-Mundt Act (in 2013, I believe) is when journalism started going to hell in a hand basket. When the Director of the FBI calls out the NYTimes for inaccuracies, and undercover cameras capture producers saying the reporting is all about ratings, I can assure you, it's a hard pill to swallow, especially for someone like me who swore the oath of ethical journalism and accuracy in reporting, and did so from an emotionless, matter-of-fact POV for many years before and after retirement. Regardless, I still maintain faith that things will iron out, and it's one of the reasons behind my supporting your proposal for a latency period before publishing "breaking news". We're dealing with a ratings race so it's not surprising that news organizations are trying to be the first to broadcast the scoop and now that the restrictive laws have been repealed, they have all kinds of leeway to say whatever the hell they please with -0- consequences. Atsme📞📧03:28, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This is on my mind, but it will be some time before I can get to it. But I will... eventually... and you'll all get pinged at the appropiate moment. EEng03:29, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I continue to appreciate the good examples being added to the list above now and then. When the time for the revolution is ripe, they will help in shaping a proposal. Our day will come, comrades!EEng23:02, 3 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have advocated in the past for an essay entitled WP:TRUMPSCANDALAFD, but I am hopeful one day that your proposal will make it unnecessary. And I apparently advocated for it on this page, ah, well, its been a while. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:13, 3 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
EEng, you should really know better than to make a "joke" which is nothing but a personal attack, even if it is against someone from the extreme right. Comments like this are not relevant to the article or the dispute and can do nothing but make the situation worse. Fram (talk) 12:54, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Roxy, I'm very disappointed in you. Can you imagine the bullying she suffered during her formative years? EEng14:26, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
How did my comment make the situation worse? Honestly, it's so distressing to have your sympathy for someone's plight labeled a personal attack. And her extreme right views have nothing to do with it; I think Subcommandante Marcos has an idiot name too (the difference being, of course, that he apparently inflicted it on himself). EEng14:26, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
EEng, drop it. Mocking people for their name is what one expects from a 7-year old child. If you continue like this, you will be blocked. Fram (talk) 14:43, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, running around on a horse smoking a pipe and calling yourself a "Subcommandante" is what one expects from a 7-year-old child (well, maybe not the smoking). Honestly, haven't you got some vandalism to fight or something? If you continue like this, you will make even more people laugh. EEng17:01, 31 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You may have fooled one gullible admin, and you may fool others as well, but your pretense of innocence is only making you look worse. If you want to insult people, do it offwiki.
Please do not add defamatory content to Wikipedia, especially if it involves living persons. Thank you.
For those playing along at home, this concerns the following segment of the current ANI thread re the article Pets of Vladimir Putin. The portions redacted by CambridgeBayWeather [202] as "BLP violations" I have underlined:
I do not think Putin would be interested at all, but right now there are a lot of cases in Russia when people are jailed for twits etc. The signals typically come from, um, unstable whistleblowers. I am not currently in Russia, but still...--Ymblanter (talk) 16:02, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Good thing for Trump we don't jail people for twits here in the US. EEng 17:41, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Putin is too busy running the White House to be bothered with these editors.Legacypac (talk) 16:39, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Content note: Article contains the passage: Three dolphins applauded the president for feeding them fish, while the walruses even shook his hand.EEng 17:41, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
I prefer Adorned in white overalls to resemble a bird, Putin did manage to get some cranes to fly. ‑ Iridescent 17:51, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
It's a shame the title of this thread isn't something like BITEy behavior at Pets of Vladimir Putin. EEng 18:05, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
[... Irrelevant intervening posts omitted...]
I voted to keep the article since it is as good as the other similar pages, some of which I was already aware of. Who knew Putin's dog is tracked by Russian GPS? Legacypac (talk) 18:20, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Wait... Donald Trump is tracked by Russian GPS???EEng 19:40, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Setting aside the dog crack (which I agree is purely a personal insult, but a harmless one against as public a figure as it is possible to be), in what way was it a BLP violation for Legacypac to suggest that Putin is running the White House? Negative speculation about current political events is a very different thing than a personal attack. Also, CambridgeBayWeather, when you redact others' comments even for good reason you should be careful to do it in a way that doesn't make those editors appear to say something they never said. Your edits make it look like EEng removed someone else's joke, rather than what actually happened, which is that he made a joke and some busybody decided that ANI is too serious a place for jokes. For your future busybody-work, you might find the {{Redacted}} template helpful. But I think the bigger problem here is that too many people want to be the thought police of Wikipedia. This attitude is a big part of what makes Wikipedia as hostile as it can sometimes be. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:34, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Given a current effort to BLP ban me going on a ANi, this post on my talk page is pretty unwelcome, especially since no one can see what I said. In about 5 minutes someone is going to point to it as proof I can't be trusted. There are enough RS to build an article on the specific ideas you deleted. Google "Putin's pet" or "Putin's dog" and enjoy. Legacypac (talk) 23:44, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Does Stephen Colbert count as a reliable source because he's pretty well said that Putin is running the white house and the comment by EEng about Russian satellites tracking Donald Trump is nowhere near anything approaching from miles away being a BLP violation. Uh, it's the insinuation that Trump is Putin's dog that is the issue, I'd say that's two steps up from being his cockholster. We're all being tracked by Russian satellites, are we all BLP violations? Mr rnddude (talk) 23:56, 1 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
EEng knows me well enough to know that I consider him a wiki-friend, and that I consider the current US administration and the alt-right to be... otherwise. But having watched the ANI stuff and the two talk sections here, I think that it's possible that no one is entirely in the right. I don't think that the ANI comments were bad enough to have made this much of a stink over (but I do appreciate that CambridgeBayWeather was very courteous, unlike... someone else). Then again, just because an editor may make certain jokes, does not mean that they should make those jokes, and certainly not that they need to make those jokes. I do not go as far as to say that ANI is too serious a place for jokes. I've even made some jokes there myself. But WP:CESSPIT ain't for nothing. It's the Wikipedia place for lost souls, people (real people!) who may be idiots or jerks, but who are nonetheless likely to be upset about something, and being an idiot or a jerk does not mean that they need to be made more upset, or deserve it, or that doing so helps anyone else. EEng, going from ANI section to ANI section to make snarky, albeit clever, comments is likely to make somebody upset. It's not helpful. Now I know that you usually brush off my advice, but I also know that you are very smart (almost as smart as I am), so please think about being a bit more judicious about your ANI comedy routine. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:29, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Acceptability of comments isn't determined by the most sensitive one or two admins looking on. As CBW noted at AN, this material stood for more than 24 hours, during which several admins posted to the thread, unknowable other admins perused it, and finally, an admin closed it – all without acting on these "BLP violations".
I have a question, while we're on the subject: even assuming that Putin is too busy running the White House to be bothered with these editorsis a BLP violation who's the LP who's being besmirched? Is it Putin? Trump? Reince Priebus (who's supposed to be running the White House)? Putin's actual dogs?
EEng02:32, 2 June 2017 (UTC) P.S. for CambridgeBayWeather: I do appreciate your courteous attitude. And P.S. for Tryptofish: they're not snarky comments, just fun stuff meant to lighten the mood (when they're not actually making a point re the topic of the post, which is most of the time, actually).[reply]
I agree that acceptability of comments is not determined by a few admins, or at least shouldn't be. But I think that you will see that I was not concerned about offending admins. Although a small number of them may, in fact, be lost souls, most are not, and should be expected to be measured in their propensities to be offended. The lost souls about whom I was talking are non-admin users, and I stand by what I said. And I, too, am underwhelmed by the theory that the Putin comment was a BLP violation. As for snark, I accept that you do not intend them to be snarky. But they do read that way sometimes, and perhaps you do not realize that. And, as I said, it's frequently unhelpful to try to lighten the mood when other people are not... in the mood. And as for your effectiveness in lightening the mood, I'd say, based upon the reactions you have gotten here, don't give up your day job. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:39, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I was/am not attempting to get anybody banned or blocked on BLP grounds. Both comments were minor and removing the one by Legacypac was probably too much. The one by EEng seemed to me to imply that one was the others bitch. I have no liking for either of the two politicians concerned but making those comments without some sources leaves Wikipedia open to accusations of partisanship. Disparaging comments about politician A are removed immediately but those on politician B are allowed to stand is seen all the time and I guess it was one time too many. Legacypac, I'm not going to reply on your talk page, unless you want me to, as I think that it would just make things worse. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq10:24, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Partisanship on articles is a problem. Partisanship on talk pages (and ANI is a talk page) is not so problematic, and is definitely not something that should be redacted. —David Eppstein (talk) 14:44, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Look, what BLP says is Editors must take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. Information. Information. When someone says, "Who knew Putin's dog is tracked by Russian GPS?", a response of "Wait... Donald Trump is tracked by Russian GPS???" is not information. It's not an assertion of fact. It's a joke. No one with common sense would actually think I was actually suggesting that Trump is a dog, much less Putin's dog. What I might have been implying beyond that is left to the reader's intelligence, but it's at best a puckish thought, not any kind of information as covered by BLP. Same goes for Putin is too busy running the White House. Thinking that stuff like this, outside article space (not that either of these would be found in article space) needs to be hunted down and stamped out stems from an absurd misunderstanding of the purpose of BLP. It's a tiny minority of admins who worry about this -- that should tell you something. EEng23:29, 2 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, strongly. As I see it, it's not a BLP violation if no reasonable person would believe it to be true, and no non-notable (thus not in the public eye) person is besmirched by it. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:02, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Small but critical adjustment to what Tfish has said: The key point here is not that no reasonable person would believe it to be true, but that no reasonable person would interpret it as intended as a statement of fact in the first place. EEng07:03, 4 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You have repeatedly engaged in unreasonable and offensive personal attacks on me, including in terms of how you refer to me, in violation of Wikipedia consensus. Please do not do this in the future and focus only on any problems you have with what I have done or am doing. --Daniel C. Boyer (talk) 00:34, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Does that mean that you admit the IP edits inserting your name in those articles are "what [you] have done or [are] doing"? Further, accusing me of having a "vendetta" against you is impugning my motives, hence it is a personal attack. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:01, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The placement of this clearly indicates it is not directed to you, which indicates either a serious misunderstanding, or a whole new kind of misconduct. And your question is really nothing I can understand how you could get out of what I wrote, to the extent that one would have to question its sincerely absent an explanation. Obviously this is not the interpretation, but for anyone who is pretending not to understand, the meaning is clearly a general one that could be applied to anyone, that all discussion should focus only on what I did or didn't do, not on ad hominem attacks. Further, when one set of principles is applied to one topic or person and another to everything else, if there is no vendetta, it is only natural to wonder what is the other explanation. I believe that, for example, for nothing that does not involve me is notability regarded as relevant to details of articles, and the relevant guidelines say the opposite. --Daniel C. Boyer (talk) 02:39, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
TLDR (though I believe that, for example, for nothing that does not involve me is notability regarded as relevant to details of articles, and the relevant guidelines say the opposite deserves some kind of prize). Daniel C. Boyer, I admire aspiration, but despise poseurs. And you, sir, are a poseur. [203]EEng04:38, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You are engaging in further personal attacks on me in violation of Wikipedia policy. Please refrain from these or I will feel that the best response is to escalate. --Daniel C. Boyer (talk) 15:03, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Your response is a little bit weird, as what I wrote doesn't seem to be the sort of thing that could possibly be an attempt to fool anyone, and indeed, I'm not trying to fool anyone. The thing about Harvard Summer School that you, who from evidence here, like Beyond My Ken responding here and your using the same phraseology on multiple occasions, seem to be a sock puppet of Beyond My Ken, is a ridiculous non-issue. Nowhere did I or anyone claim that Harvard Summer School was anything other than Harvard Summer School, so it's extremely difficult to know what you're talking about. It's really an issue of material about me being treated differently than material about anyone else. If material about Chirac is treated one way I, while making no specific argument about how material about me should be treated, would tend to think that material about everyone else should be treated the same way. I also think that these discussions should deal with Wikipedia and what is good for it rather than the personal failings or character defects of any one man. Your link to my varied career doesn't seem to link to anything relevant, and I don't know the relevance to anything, but the answer to your question is, essentially all my life, primarily in the early nineties, and back in the mid-aughts. --Daniel C. Boyer (talk)`
(talk page stalker) Ah right, "same phraseology", eh? Stuff like "totally sham", "shameless self-publicist" and "self-obsessed egomaniac", yes? Shame on them. I'd be interested to see what the response would be to an accusation of sock-puppeteering, if you'd really care to make one at this desperate stage. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:56, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not really sure why you think that these are the phrases in question, or is it that you simply think that the "two" of "them" are self-confessed egomaniacs. What I have not seen is any response to anything I have said, my valid points, outside of insincerity and sarcasm. I would like to. --Daniel C. Boyer (talk) 19:59, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I guess they've managed to bridle their incessant egomania within the bounds of Wikipedia policy, for the past 10 years. But I'd suggest you need to pop over to here, Daniel, where your valid and sincere input is patently awaited, with bated breath. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:12, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And all these years I thought it was baited breath. One of these days I'll add a section on my TP including my rendition of lyrics to songs, like 'Good for you' by Selena Gomez and me thinking the lyrics say "I'm farting carrots' instead of 'I'm 14 carat"...it really does happen.Atsme📞📧20:37, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(talk page stalker)#2 - 😂😂😂 - forgive me, [FBDB], but I haven't gotten "beyond" "like Beyond My Ken responding here and your using the same phraseology on multiple occasions, seem to be a sock puppet of Beyond My Ken" 😂😂😂 - no offense to EEng or Beyond My Ken as I adore & respect you both, but back on point...who is covering the outfield? 😂😂😂. Atsme📞📧19:28, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The context is WP:ANI#User:Daniel C. Boyer, where it turns out that Boyer and his sockpuppets have been pushing to include his non-notable autobiography here since at least 2004 and he is only now on the verge of being banned from talking about himself so much. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:36, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Daniel C. Boyer, I need to ask you to stay away from here now. You're upsetting the children and animals. EEng21:00, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed recently you were accused on the MOS TP of hiding behind an "internet persona". If this is true, does that make it an EEngVAR issue? Primergrey (talk) 05:11, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Three shall thou count, and the number thou shall counteth, shall be three. Four, shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceedeth to three. Five is right out! Note: Image shows sources used in the WP:GA review for Carol Vorderman
Thanks for bringing that to our attention! And it turns out, just a bit up in that thread, I've been nominated for the Ultra-Cool User Page award! (Admittedly, it's Wikipedia Review...) [205]. EEng23:41, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm surprised to see that Wikipedia Review has arisen from the digital grave. The website had been down or something for years, which is what gave rise to Wikipediocracy. Are those two now in competition with one another? (Coming soon: Wikpediocracy Review and Wikipedia Review Review.) --Tryptofish (talk) 00:13, 20 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
All that remains of an editor who tried to navigate the page, but did not survive (or, one fewer dodo editing Wikipedia) --TryptofishDr. Tryptofish explains to veteran navigators the hazards of scrolling EEng's talk page unless looking for the name of an admin. They all nodded, having forgotten why, after all these years, they were scrolling his page. --Atsme
...Is among the least navigable pages I've ever encountered in my decade as a Wikipedia editor. It also happens to be one of the less boring ones. Nice work. :)
Just to be pedantic (this is WP after all) that was your talk page. I did come to your talk page this time, saw this section, read your user page, then promptly forgot why I came here. Wondering now if there should be a "user page of the day" on the front page. Kendall-K1 (talk) 21:14, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I figured that was it. See, the problem is that my fellow editors respect me to the point of veneration, and simply assume that any edit I make is ipso facto correct – see [208]. So if I want someone to check what I've done, I have to raise a ruckus. I hope you checked (assuming you actually understand how all those moving parts in pending changes work, which I'm not sure anyone does). EEng19:10, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I would probably employ more classic new editor tricks, like... if anything on my watchlist uses the word "truth" in any way shape or form, I'm 100% checking it. TimothyJosephWood19:13, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In response to your recent ornithological question at WP:ANI
Re: Go ahead and snark, but for what it's worth, Pardis (as a practicing geneticist yet) manages to fit a nod to the limitations of twin studies [ghastly section, btw] and common abuses of "heritability" into her intro genetics course, while Wilson couldn't resist gambling the credibility gained through a career of stellar entomology on a bunch of cockamamie just-so stories about hard genetic determinism"sociobiology". So. FourViolas (talk) 23:51, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
When someone's entire contribution history looks like [210] I feel comfortable erring on the side of ascribing promotionalism. If you, personally, want to vouch for this person I won't oppose it. Maybe some sunny day we'll come up with inclusion criteria. EEng01:44, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, I wasn't actually suggesting she passes whatever impossible threshold of academic superstardom would make her more worthy of the shortlist than Wilson, just griping. This is too complicated to implement, but if I were in charge I'd make a points system: three points for a Nobel or Fields, two for a Pulitzer, one for each NYT bestseller, one for being a fellow of the AAAS or field equivalent, one for being the subject of someone else's course, one-half for each published biography, etc., and then include people with a score of 5 or higher. FourViolas (talk) 17:36, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(talk page stalker)FourViolas, I'm agassed!! Methinks perhaps that criteria may be too encyclopedic for the average encyclopediaphobe. WP would shrink to fewer pages than the # of baseballs (or bananas) that Johnny Bench can hold in one hand. Atsme📞📧00:23, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I spelled it that way for a reason...I was showing sensitivity to EEng's intellectual faculties by appealing to his sense of humor, which I sensed you would help provoke, you lil provocateur you. It's also possible that FV's words, she passes may have triggered it. Atsme📞📧01:51, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm only talking about the criteria for the super-elite shortlist on Harvard_University#Faculty. For general NACADEMIC purposes, I'd be willing to relax the standard to, say, either winning a Nobel Prize or personally developing a technology which ruins ≥10,000 people's lives. EEng, can you do anything about your TPSs' gassed-ly puns? They stink. FourViolas (talk) 02:21, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Not completely serious, but inclusion on that list rather than inclusion in Wikipedia makes more sense of your Nobel-is-only-halfway scale. Do we get to choose who Harvard hires now? I had no idea we had achieved such power! —David Eppstein (talk) 06:27, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If we can choose, then let's raise the bar on porn stars and hockey players, too. Is there a Hall of Shame Fame we can use as the minimum requirement for pornies? I think hockey is pretty much the same as soccer, or it may be more relaxed. Atsme📞📧13:01, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Uh oh...since porn is part of the equation, I'm afraid my answer to the sticks and grass-diving question will only get me in trouble, regardless of how innocent it might be. Atsme📞📧23:31, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Barbara (WVS), listen... I'm very glad you brought this up. Do you know where these editors are popping up from all of a sudden? I really should reach out to them to explain why I'm slashing and burning their added material, but I've just been too exhausted (I'm taking care of my 7-yo nephew all this week). I don't want to drive new editors away, but that stuff was way over the top. Is there an instructor in charge of them somewhere? EEng01:33, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know any of the details about this, but if you are concerned that this is a class project where the instructor needs to be contacted, anyone can ask for help with working things out with the student editors and instructor at WP:ENB or WP:ENBI. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:37, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Over at DYK there is a discussion on the inclusion of "interesting to a broad audience" as a requirement for a DYK hook. You may have an opinion on the subject. However, what I was really posting here about was this hook. You are very clever with hook suggestions and could probably come up with something better. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:31, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for considering this request. If my present hook suggestion is turned down, I may split the nomination into two. I didn't mention it in the article, because some might call it trivia, but the guy who located the rock pool and researched the zoanthid found his laboratory had burned down when he returned to Honolulu. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:07, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I heard that one in the hand is worth two Bushes. No need for you to worry...he's probably read your user page which in itself is built-in protection against a Trump handshake. Atsme📞📧15:27, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Puzzle is right. I've been in that discussion, and I did not understand what Drmies meant when he said that, and I have no idea what you mean by what you are saying here. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:47, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If I remember aright, on Wikidata certain datums (!) are considered "claims" until they're confirmed in some designated way. As for the other guy, I'm staying out of that except to note that I see my [FBDB] innovation has found uses I never anticipated. EEng23:56, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
EEng, you saw that?!! I'm impressed! Hey, Tryp - it's Friday night and it's happy hour. For the next 3 or 4 hours, we have a license to not care. I blame my OCD for getting me in that mess and for not letting me get out of it...but I'm more befuddled over this, which I imagine few saw in my post at that TP because they're too frigging busy arguing for their own OR. 🍺!!! Atsme📞📧00:00, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Bad habit I recently developed when responding to a question/statement in one of the mile long threads I've been subjected to this past week...or has it been a year? Atsme📞📧00:16, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
At the risk of sounding like a supremacist...maybe I spelled that wrong...fortune cookies don't solve the hunger you get an hour after eating Chinese food at 2:00am - yes, I did that and at 5 am I was starving - while riding horses down the esplanade of a busy boulevard. Atsme📞📧 00:41, 12 August 2017 (UTC)<---I have Ritchie333 to thank for keeping me up with the time. Atsme📞📧00:46, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'd support something along the lines of "require admins to get re-confirmation every 8 (or 10) years" but don't see how that's related to the Gary Renard case. There are multiple people on both sides with very specific opinions, but the consensus in the last AfD to redirect was clear. And appealing it through something other than WP:DRV is clearly incorrect. Power~enwiki (talk) 04:06, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I was only referring to Alex whatshisname. Proposals for admins to have to stand again after a period etc. are perennial, and while I'd support something like that I'm not holding my breath. EEng04:10, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Unlike the Arthur Rubin and Winhunter threads, there's no reason for anything to happen here. And, yeah, maybe next year there will be a de-sysop proposal. I wouldn't hold my breath either. Power~enwiki (talk) 04:20, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree this isn't actionable like the other two, but still he should've put his toe in first instead of diving in. EEng04:22, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I had a long thing typed out here, but I'll keep it short: agreed with EEng that things should be taken slow for returning admins, but noting that I have been very impressed with Alex's return. He meets my two RfA criteria: have a clue and don't be a dick. Probably should have sat this close out, but my general impression is a good guy and a net positive. Anyway, EEng, feel free to throw in an appropriate image here too lighten the mood. I tried, but was coming up blank. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:49, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
An admin upholds one of the five pillars without throwing his weight around.
When I saw this, I felt a major earth tremor. I also heard on CNN that one of the satellites that allows us to view your UP from space lost its orbit - but then, it was CNN. Anyway, not sure what it all indicates but I seriously doubt your UP can handle a sure enough response from the chief architect. Atsme📞📧19:45, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
His first question is `God, how long is a million years?
God replies `To me, it`s about a second.
His second question is `God, how much is a million dollars?
God says, `To me it`s about a penny.
So the clever man asks his third question; God may I have a penny?
Your redundant close of the AN/I complaint about DoRD confused me until what you had done suddenly struck me. Very nice!! One of your better ones. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:50, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Shoot! I saw this just moments after restoring the comment again. I'm now very, very afraid you'll raise this at ANI. EEng22:42, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, wait. You've opened an ANEW report [213] about how you editwarred to remove another editor's talk-page post? Now I'm really worried. EEng22:56, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The story you link, "VENEZUELAN PROTESTORS PREPARE TO LAUNCH A SHIT BOMB PROTEST", reads in part, "Now protesters have decided to organize what they are deeming the 'shit march.' A flyer circulating on social media reads, 'They have gas; we have excrement'... Parts of the Venezuelan military have already begun to defect and join the protesters."
To answer your question: I literally mean "absolute" and I absolutely mean "literal". Re "every": I said "every sentence", and I absolutely, literally mean it. I do, however, reserve the right to be metaphorical in sentence fragments, ungrammatical asides, test edits where I inadvertently click Save instead of Preview, independent clauses preceding or following comma splices, inarticulate mutterings, text-based renderings of primal screams, random strings of ASCII or Unicode characters generated by falling asleep on the keyboard, and so on. I hope that's OK. RivertorchFIREWATER06:05, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You are indeed a gentleman and a scholar except for the bit about my mom, I guess, but she's sympathetic to your issues. EEng20:05, 29 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Cough medicine for Ritchie333. Delivered by Dr. Thaddeus Schmidlap, maker of miracle elixirs from the land of Achoo, a small country in the Federated States of Chu.
Me: here was its first appearance on Wikipedia. I also gave Wikipedia "civility police", "Facebook for ugly people" and "Bradspeak". You're welcome. ‑ Iridescent06:36, 2 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Iridescent you coined the phrase "civility police" and I felt it my duty to provide the visuals. I will not pursue the others for I fear potential retaliation from FB users, and I don't have a clue what "Bradspeak" means. Atsme📞📧17:36, 2 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Happily, WP:Bradspeak exists to enlighten you. (Despite appearances, it wasn't intended as an insult—it was an observation that NYB was more dedicated than most to avoiding ambiguity, and that his consequent refusal to use words with more than one meaning led to some extremely odd looking phrasing.) I believe I was also the first person to use the phrase "indefinite doesn't mean infinite" on Wikipedia as well, but I can't really take credit for that—before c. 2007 the block interface had separate settings for indefinite ("we haven't decided when to unblock you") and infinite ("fuck off and don't come back") so when blocking someone the situation didn't need to be explained. ‑ Iridescent17:53, 2 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Talk page stalkers! A gadget everyone should install!
You know how you have buttons Save changes and Show preview and Show changes when you edit? This adds Show preview and changes in a single button! It's amazing! Seriously, add this to your common.js e.g. User:SoAndSo/common.js:
Ok, so I'm editing this section in Firefox, and at the bottom is Edit summary, Save changes, Show preview, Show changes, Show preview and changes, Citations and Cancel.
I clicked on Show preview and changes and can see what I just typed above but in order to see a preview of what I'm typing now, my only options are Save changes, Show preview, Show changes, and Cancel. I will click on Show changes. Now I have the Show preview and changes option again. How cool is that? ❤️ Thank you, EEng and Writ Keeper!! Wow! Atsme📞📧15:30, 4 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I use Firefox (but in Windows, not Mac), and that never happened for me. Was this your first edit after installing the gadget in your JS file? If so, maybe the new code had not yet loaded until your second try. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:42, 4 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, that makes sense, Tryp. I waited a few days, and here goes. I'm seeing the full menu below Edit summary; i.e. Save changes, Show preview, Show changes, Citations, Show preview and changes, Cancel. I'm going to click on Show preview and changes.....Yep - that was it!! Needed to clear cache. That's what excitement will do for you - I got in too big a hurry to use the new feature and instead of doing a cache check, my check bounced. Atsme📞📧22:33, 4 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Now in Safari browser.
I clicked on Show preview and changes, AWESOME, and now I'm typing this and can see the full menu again, unlike what happened in Firefox. The Show preview and changes remains with each edit. Not sure if it's worth reporting the bug to Writ Keeper although it would save an extra step in Firefox (using a Mac).Atsme📞📧15:39, 4 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, but the lion's share of the credit belongs to the Wikipedia community, which provides the raw material to which I am honored to be allowed to apply such humble talents as I have been lucky enough to be endowed with. EEng03:17, 2 September 2017 (UTC) I don't know if that last bit was grammatical, but it's late.[reply]
It was grammatical, more like fanatical, from our favorite radical, but it will pass along with the gas that keeps your ass in high gear, n'er failing to be witty and tart...(finish the poem 🤓). Atsme📞📧04:31, 2 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You're a fine one to accuse me of trolling, calling my plan 'dumb', calling me a 'schoolboy' and criticising my spelling. Especially, as I tried to defuse the situation, and provided a rational and plausible explanation for my posts, neither of which is in keeping with the definition of a troll. Plasmic Physics (talk) 20:14, 7 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
TOC limit 3 would suppress ====-level headings needed in the very large === sections such as Dates, months and years. But Time of day is a small section, and there's no point in breaking out Time zones separately within it. On this page, as on all MOS pages, every little bit we can do to reduce distraction and navigational complexity helps. EEng11:31, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, cannot doesn't scan (it should be can't) but more importantly, the way it goes is: "You can lead a hor to Tory, but you can't make her Conservative." EEng20:41, 10 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You know, I've been saying it with "cannot" for years, but a search shows that you are right (don't let it go to your head!). Anyway, you can't tune a fish, at least not me. And Immanuel can't either. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:27, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I love it. (Damn, why did Commons have to delete that photo of an orangutan I used to have on my user page!) I can see it now: Category:Animals that look like Donald Trump. (Uh-oh, I created a red category, so the category police are going to come after me now.) But maybe that would raise WP:BLA (biographies of living animals) issues, because that really is an awful thing to say about those animals. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:54, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Knight errant having returned from jousting refinery towers comment I disagree with 2 examples on that page. Re: ISGM theft, I would keep the Vehicle part, as sometimes escaping on foot when the 5-0 have surrounded the place is going to be easier that trying to drive off in a bullet riddled van, and good robbers (don't ask won't tell:) tend to use a different vehicle for escaping with the loot then the arrival vehicle. While in that particular case all was quiet and they escaped in the same way whence they did come, I don't find it redundant. Re: the rug in Mary Lee Ware: Some rugs are hung on the wall, esp. if it is going to be ondisplay in a public building such as a library. Excepting those two, I pretty much agree with the entire essay, and think it should be moved to the Wiki-space. Thanks, L3X1(distænt write)17:06, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
On (so to speak) the rug, if the text said "rug on display" I could see some readers wondering whether that's a horizontal or vertical attitude, but "the rug in the library" I really don't think admits any realistic ambiguity. I'm on the knife edge about the vehicle; you make good points but let me think about it.
Talk page stalkers' opinions solicited on move from user to project space
See post just above
Support I'll boldly claim the status as the first non-EEng to promote this around the wiki, I support moving to this project space as I just cited this in a GA review. The issues with the gay risotto dinner might need to be addressed, but given, we do have a user who is trying to promote that word to mean happy, so EEng might be part of a trend. TonyBallioni (talk) 17:53, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
the first non-EEng – You make it sound like I'm a species or class of organisms, like "the first non-mammal". But seriously, is there really a problem with the gay pancake breakfast? I mean, they could serve Log CabinSyrup, right? EEng18:01, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Intentionally awkward turn of phrase on that one . I could go either way: you clearly meant it as humour, but there are some who might be offended by it. I could go either way on if it was appropriate for project space. I doubt Chuck was serving log cabin syrup, but who knows? He and the Donald are on good terms these days. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:06, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Gay pancake breakfasts seem like a pretty mainstream subject these days. If some readers get the vapors from seeing pianos with unclothed piano legs (or whatever the modern equivalent of that is), I don't see why we should have to cater to them. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:31, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support (talk page watcher) - I wasn't going to say anything about the "gay dinner" quip, but if other users find it, er, astonishing, then maybe best to clean it up before promoting. My issue is that I would prefer if you didn't joke about suicide - you could have said seppuku and everyone would know what you mean (probably). Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:46, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Now hold on. Why is ritual suicide a problem, but seppuku OK? How about self-immolation? Would that be OK? If so, why? C'mon, we're adults here (even if we don't always act it). I think I'd like supports or opposes simply on the essay as it stands now. If we keep going the way this is going, we'll end up with just another not-so-enjoyable attempt at amusement (and enlightenment of course, but amusement is the great enabler of enlightenment). EEng18:58, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well I don't want to start a thing, I know you and I don't share the same views on saying things for the lulz that some people have issues with; depression and suicide happen to be serious and sensitive issues in my environment. That's all I've got, really. I think your essay makes some very good points. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 19:21, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I totally can't respond after seeing the image EEng just added to depict my date night. The vapors fogged-up my vision. Atsme📞📧20:30, 13 September 2017 (UTC)And I demand catering.[reply]
Meh. If you do move it, please keep in mind that other editors will change it, and you will probably have to go along with changes. Having the discussion here tilts the survey population to your enablers friends, so the wide world of other editors may not be so amused. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:54, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
E, on one hand, Tryp has a point; on the other, this isn't your first rodeo. Compare page view stats and if you think it will get more exposure in outer space than it would orbiting planet earth, go for it. Atsme📞📧01:45, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Principled opposition to this abominable sampling technique per Tryptofish; your talk page stalkers, thank God, are not representative of most editors. Seriously, it's a fine essay, but the risotto joke should be about Podesta instead, and I believe it's actually not obvious that authorised firearms officers would be at an M.P.'s low-key meeting with constituents. FourViolas (talk) 00:08, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Facepalm Oh FourViolas, you soph-o-more, the armed officers didn't attend the surgery, they "attended the incident" i.e. were dispatched to the scene of the attack. Listen, there's a freshman I want you to show the ropes to. You up for it? EEng03:30, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Do what you gotta do That is, keep on keeping on. It is what it is and it ain't over till it's over. InedibleHulk(talk) 00:55, September 14, 2017 (UTC)
Support - I love the fricken essay. I caught myself referring back to it when proofreading my FB posts WP edits last night. Seriously, it needs to be a project page. Atsme📞📧17:47, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support. Essays in Wikipedia-space have a tendency to become like everything else in Wikipedia-space, bureaucratic and humorless, and keeping this where it is might help stave that off. But this is definitely worthy of being used as Wikipedia essays are used, as a mystifying capital-letter edit-summary shortcut. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:01, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Some pancakes for you
For the insatiable
Hello, EEng! Tryptofish has cooked you some pancakes. Help spread Wiki-Love.... oh, fuck it. Given how you cannot bring yourself to let go of the "gay pancakes" formulation at that assemblage of puzzlement, here's a plate of them (and [FBDB] you know which orifice to put them into). If you want to move the thing out of userspace, I'm trying to do you a favor. If you insist on having it your way, well, I tried. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:00, 20 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, come on now, I'm not "hung up", but I could just as well assert that you are, because you so strongly resist any attempt to change it (WP:OWN, perhaps?). But let me give you a serious – and sincere – explanation. This discussion thread seems to be about moving it out of userspace, where the larger community will start looking at it, and there will inevitably be editors who will disagree with you, and a lot more ardently than I am doing. When you say that no one else seems to care, that's just no one else from within the rarefied little world of your talkpage admirers. There's nothing at all wrong with "pancakes", of course. But putting it in terms of a gay pancake breakfast will strike some users as insensitive to gay people, as in what makes gay pancakes distinct from straight ones, and why would gay ones be funnier than straight ones. And it is so unnecessary, since it's only part of a joke. If I left it alone and you moved it out of userspace, sooner or later someone else will start edit warring with you about it. I'm not saying they would be right, but I'm just saying that it will happen. But guess what, my pancake-craving friend? Tryptofish thought of a wonderful solution, wherein you can eat your pancakes and have them too! You're welcome. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:27, 20 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Making the question even more urgent: Why are you wasting the time of so many editors? When are you going to get a clue? EEng03:24, 14 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the reply, I was away for the weekend and only just received it.
I realise that you have a problem with my behaviour. But this is not the place to discuss that. This is about your behaviour.
I'm interpreting your response as meaning that you see nothing wrong with the edit in question, and will continue to make similar ones unless this is escalated, is that a fair conclusion? Andrewa (talk) 23:25, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Let's escalate!
I'm interpreting your response as meaning you're even more clueless than anyone thought. Do you really so need to humiliate yourself that you just can't resist coming back here?
I was away for the weekend and only just received it. – Thanks for explaining. I was counting the hours until I heard from you.
I realise that you have a problem with my behaviour. But this is not the place to discuss that. – Who the fuck are you to tell me what can be discussed on my talk page?
unless this is escalated – Christ, please escalate. It's been a while since one of you grandfathered admins made a fool of himself like this. Always entertaining.
@Andrewa: Things might have changed since whatever halcyon days you are remembering. I feel I can speak for EEng and myself in saying that we do not want the issue escalated because we have things to do and further pointless banter would be very unproductive. However, I guarantee that escalation would achieve nothing apart from providing light entertainment. The way to avoid people poking fun at you is to stop wasting time. Regarding Wikipedia talk:Talk page guidelines, you have made 97 edits since 14 August 2017—has anything been achieved? Of course you are welcome to waste your time however you like, but WP:TPG is important—1,019 people watch the page, of whom 95 have checked the talk page recently; in all, the talk page has been viewed 2,598 times in the past 30 days. That means the pointless banter is wasting a lot of other people's time. Please find something useful to do. If you really really really want to continue, make an RfC. Johnuniq (talk) 04:10, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I had it in mind that an escalation might be useful as a vehicle for Andrewa learning something, but experience shows that's very unlikely so, yes, it would indeed be a waste of time. [User:EEng#s|E]]Eng 04:24, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
Indeed, you are quite right, the bar on personal attacks is lower than it once was, and consensus is clear that your post was quite in order. Perhaps that is one reason we have concerns about contributor retention... but that's a discussion for another time.
I think you're trying to say the bar is higher, but that's OK (and I don't agree, by the way – we've just stopped trying to police personal interactions the way grade-school teachers patrol the playground). Anyway, this wasn't resolved in anyone's favour, because WP:Wikipedia_is_not_about_winning. But we might say it was resolved in favour of a principle – the principle that Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not about whining. I'm glad you learned something, but I dare not ask what that is. Now please stop wasting my time and go deny the antecedent, or affirm the consequent, or accentuate the positive, or whatever it is you think you're doing, somewhere else. EEng22:48, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In retrospect, this came across as unnecessarily personalized. I didn't really mean you in particular, but any editor arguing from a personal-habits perspective. Sorry for the implied tone. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 05:30, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's OK, SM, we love you warts and all. Every project needs its overinformed style maven. It does seem, though, that recently you posts have become much longer; I think they'd be a lot more effective if they didn't touch on every possible sub-sub-consideration. EEng15:35, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Noted. That habit of mine comes in waves. The more busy I am with something else, the shorter and more interspersed the posts are; when I'm bored and keep coming back to WP all day long, like checking Facebook, I tend to post more and longer. Heh. — SMcCandlish ☺☏¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 23:39, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I realized later that it was you, which is why I removed my comment about it. I actually don't mind you doing it, I thought it was one of my prosecutors, and I was a bit touchy. Overall, no problem. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:53, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hello EEng. Your recent edit of Pete Seeger with the edit summary ”we don't credit photos like this” also changed the birth place to Patterson, New York, U.S. I changed the birth place to Manhattan, New York, U.S. on 8 August 2017 to agree with the first referenced line of section Family and personal life. Did you inadvertently make a cut & paste mistake or is Patterson correct? If so the text needs to be changed to concur. Cheers. Grahamboat (talk) 05:13, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
We must mention EEng at NPOV-N since he's mentioned that others have mentioned mentioning him and we don't want to be left out of the mention tension.Atsme📞📧13:39, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, SBHB - you simply have to mention it. Was not that style of mention mentioned to you as we have intentionally mentioned in the mention tension convention while you attempted suspension, unless enforced abstention was your contention? Atsme📞📧16:04, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Which one is more reasonable: A. Someone has a recent grudge from an encounter with installing Windows B. I seem to remember raiding a cult hideout and they had this projected on the wall over their altar. L3X1(distænt write)18:30, 20 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And Lt.-Gen. Holland Smith, 200 years later there is still a British Army
Just so you have some background information. Although it is not relevant to the discussion as it is only an example, I thought you might find it interesting.
It is the gates as a symbol that are significant (not Sous-lieutenant Legros -- although he was one of several the major actors in the drama). Wellington picked the closing of the gates the most crucial act of any small group of Allied soldiers towards securing the Coalition victory. It is the closing of the gates that 200 years later are the subject of the new monument at Waterloo commemorating the Coalition victory. (Closing the gates at Hougoumont 1815, Battle of Waterloo memorial unveiled by Prince Charles).
Think of what most of Europe (including many in France) thought when Napoleon escaped from Elbe at the start of the Hundred Days, it was something like Brecht said about another dictator "Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard ..." Of course there are many turning points in the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars and they are celebrated by the victors, eg the royal Navy has Nelson's Column in Trafalgar Square, and the toast "to the immortal memory"; and the 1812 Overture celebrates the retreat from Moscow in 1812. However Waterloo ended 25 years of near continuous war (there was a brief peace in 1804) and the general (Wellington), who commanded the final military defeat of Napoleon, considered this the closing of the door a defining moment. Like the Second World War there are many events that can be considered turning points, but those that nations select as symbols, like statue on the right or the voice recording of MacArthur "These proceedings are closed." to symbolise the victory (or in the case of the poppy to commemorate the carnage) are few; and the British Army has long since seen the closing of the gates at Hougoumont as such a symbol. The unavailing of the new monument on the 200th anniversary had brought that to a larger audience. -- PBS (talk) 11:28, 21 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've looked over the discussion and hope your advice got through. I'll keep an eye. Your ran/rma infection seems chronic. EEng05:04, 21 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Responded here [232]. I wish you'd make up your mind, though, whether I'm a dick or a douche. (Is your confusion that they both go into ladyparts?) EEng18:02, 21 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the thanks. After reading the discussion I could all but smell fill-in-the-blanks test sheets copied by Hectograph (yes, I've been around that long B^) and by some of the comments, so have others—who draw different conclusionsjoke—gee, isn't 1492 sufficient? Neonorange (Phil) 04:07, 24 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Better me than anyone else; it doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I kind of like having the block log I have because it draws the crazies like moths to the flame, thus we know quickly who's who. BTW, he seems to want us to think he's this guy [233]. He's probably qualified for a WP:IMPERSONATE block, but I'm not going to initiate that unless he keeps behaving in a way that embarrasses the real person with that name. EEng01:28, 26 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I simply googled Carole Chaski Robert Kwasny. It's on the first page of results. I don't think it's him, though. No responsible academic would behave that way; more likely it's someone out to embarrass him and/or embarrass Chaski. EEng02:17, 26 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Standards and falls in the same place! Tryptofish (talk)
A header
The Barnstar of Good Humor
As the barnstar documentation says, for lightening the mood, defusing conflicts, and generally making Wikipedia a better place to be. Including this. -- Euryalus (talk) 06:01, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Since you sent Thanks, I thought I ought read this talk page. My first reaction was "how can one editor be so talented?" Then the answer hit: no effor required—each night you tilt Wikipedia and next morning les noix roll in—as if this were Orange County. User:Neonorange (Phil) 07:39, 14 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
My second post is almost a duplicate, but not quite. A clue is to be found by clicking on the subject line of that second post. — (Phil) 11:36, 14 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Since you sent thanks I thought I ought read your talk page. My first reaction was "how can one editor be so talented?" Then the answer hit: each night you tilt Wikipedia and next morning les noix roll in as if this page were Orange County. Neorange (Phil) 07:58, 14 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Appreciation
I wish to commend you for your great sense of humour, as well as for your exquisite taste for NOT adding a picture of a boomerang in the ANI thread. Dr.K.03:02, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed you politely declined a robot's invitation to comment on trains, and it got me thinking. Thinking about trains, mostly. Ctrl-Fed the page and noticed a single instance of "trains". Is that enough?
If not, maybe now's the time for everyone to let everyone else know how they really feel about those things. If so, delete away! InedibleHulk(talk) 04:08, October 18, 2017 (UTC)
I actually agree with most of them; I tend to err on the side of more information rather than less when I write articles as (as I'm sure you know) it's much easier to cut later than add (and also a sort of a defense against casual tagging ... I think I put in the names of the pathologists because a) I wasn't sure how often I'd have to refer to the writers when I began that section and I didn't want to keep saying "the pathologists" and b) I've had people tag that sort of thing with {{who}} a few too many times). I was sad to see those bits about the black water go but ... it has been over four years now and I have not found anything about what happened with the lawsuit over it, so I guess all we need to do now is note it and move on.
I did, however, restore the "mechanics of the body removal" because it's a subtle way of debunking one of the so-called "mysteries" of the case intended to suggest paranormal involvement, i.e. people who think themselves clever and ask "If they had to cut her body out, HOW COULD SHE HAVE GOTTEN IN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE? HUH? HUH?" With that explanation in the article and cited to a reliable source, people can link to our article (as a lot of web forums do) and quote that part and shut that down real quick. (I also read somewhere, but haven't found an RS repeating this, that (rather sensibly when you think about it) the rigor mortis was so advanced they couldn't pull the body back through the hatch without severely damaging it in the process).
(BTW, maybe I should take the time now to apologize for things I said during that long war we had over at DYK two summers ago. So, I'm sorry). Daniel Case (talk) 02:06, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As the wise man said, Perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away. Good writing often springs from the dynamic between a writer who who writes too much and an editor who cuts, chooses, and prunes.
Don't worry about the other, Daniel Case. As I'm sure you know I've been on the receiving end of worse.
I think you'd only really be justified in blanking it for a short period of time... say, something like slightly over four and a half minutes, perhaps...?! — fortunavelut luna14:46, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Iridescent, I have rug burns from ROTFLMAO!! The trigger: "and every type of sign as a unique contribution to civilization's wealth and security, just as each individual human is perfectly independent of others and is endowed with certain unalienable rights: rights held by the individual, not the collective." Piso mojado for sure!! 😂 Atsme📞📧22:18, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
...on this spooky Halloween night: I can actually relate to how you've been castigated over what you perceived to be humorous. Sticks and stones may break my femur but your comments are not humerus. Where do we sign up for the It's not humerus museum? See my TP for your first entry, unless you prefer to choose among your many. Atsme📞📧00:52, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Pssst...sidebar note: AfC is the smoothest road to a happier WP life...cut-off the disruption at the pass...help the newbies get their articles properly prepared and ready for mainspace. It reduces the stress we encounter at AfD and helps improve the quality of articles that are published on WP. Atsme📞📧02:22, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Your user page, User:EEng, has the longest Bogus file options lint error I have ever seen, 34073 characters long. It starts out
[[Lionel de Jersey Harvard|{{center|Lionel Harvard]]}} ]] *''... that eight years after rowing a [[Sinking of the RMS Titanic |''Titanic'']] lifeboat and honoring [[Harry Elkins Widener|her drowned son]] with a [[Harry Elkins Widener Memorial Library|Harvard library]], '''[[Eleanor Elkins Widener|Eleanor Widener]]''' waited on a yacht while [[Alexander Hamilton Rice, Jr.|her new husband]] fought "scantily-clad, ferocious cannibals"?'' *''... that at '''[[History and traditions of Harvard commencements|Harvard commencements]]''', bagpipes herald breakfast, bachelors are welcomed, sheriffs on white steeds preserve order, and [[President of Harvard University|Harvard's president]] occupies a "bizarre" chair prone to tipping over?''
and ends
==Museum of Yummy== ::''From the article [[Pontefract cake]] (apparently a kind of candy){{snd}}which includes this image:'' [[File:PontefractCakes.jpg|thumb|left]] The term "cake" has a long history. The word itself is of Viking origin, from the Old Norse word "kaka". {{clear}} ==Museum of Leaden Irony== ::''From the change history for the article [[Linotype machine]]:'' (cur , [[Special:Diff/779828760|prev]]){{spaces|5}}{{small|🔘}}{{spaces|2}}[[Special:Diff/779828760|03:01, May 11, 2017]] [[User:Benh57|Benh57]] ([[User_talk:Benh57]], [[User_talk:Benh57|talk]] , [[Special:Contributions/Benh57|contribs]]) '''m''' . . (28,937 bytes) (-1) . . ''(typo)'' ([[Special:Diff/779828760|undo]]
That fixed it. I hope you don't mind, I fixed the remaining lint errors except about 40 obsolete tags (<font> and <center>). If this makes you unhappy, feel free to revert. —Anomalocaris (talk) 09:24, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(talk page stalker) Lint errors? What? Did you clean-out all of the lint errors including his naval lint? Hopefully you decided to keep the lint just in case you need to start a fire and don't have any kindling on hand (not to be confused with Kindle at the eBookstore). I hear lint collection is a favorite past time for "preppers"...not to be confused with peppers as in Jalepeño. [FBDB] It's Happy Hour, and it's Saturday - need more be said? Atsme📞📧21:57, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This is your only warning; if you trim out blatantly excessive text from a long standing rights description page making the text far more digestible and less complex for the average reader, as you did with this edit, I shall have to praise you again.
Seriously, I saw the edit summary and immediately assumed it was vandalism. But, the edit summary was perfect. Nicely done on trimming that text down! --Hammersoft (talk) 13:53, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I counted the number of "blah"s, and you should have had one more. (By the way, I have all of the best "blah"s. When I get done, you'll have so many "blah"s that you'll be getting tired of so much "blah"ing. Everyone else has fake "blah"s.) --Tryptofish (talk) 14:42, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I did have to add a bit of text back in [238]. Feel free to change it however you wish, but this bit is important because many of the people we want having autopatrolled are not familiar with project space, so we rely on other people to let admins know that they should have the flag. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:18, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
John Selden - See my bold text for the issue in Attribution below the list of References: This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain: Chisholm, Hugh, ed. (1911). "Selden, John". Encyclopædia Britannica (11th ed.). Cambridge University Press. Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation. The anchor is named CITEREFChisholm1911. I don't know how to fix it and thought maybe you could based on your experience considering it's a "Harv warning"...either because of the "Harv" part or the "warning" part. 😆 Atsme📞📧15:26, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I love asking for help on your TP because within a half-hour, an admin answers the call. It's probably the same on my TP as long as it's not me doing the asking. Funny how that works, huh? 🙃 Atsme📞📧18:58, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm too swamped right now to do anything but drop in for my periodic watchlist perusal. Maybe over the weekend. It does look tighter and better! Perhaps you already know this, but judicious use of {{nobr}} and/or {{nbsp}} can do wonders in the way of keeping the linebreaking clean (and are better, in general, than < br>, because nobr/nbsp inserts a linebreak if needed, while < br> forces a linebreak always (and whether one is needed or not can depend on window size). Ping me next week (if that's not too late) if you still want me. In the meantime I suspect my glittering salon of talk page stalkers will pitch in (as DE has already done). EEng19:59, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
On mobile devices in mobile view, because it has so many columns the software gives up even trying to fit it in, meaning that unless readers actually realize that it continues off the side of the page and can figure out how to scroll sideways, all they'll see is a list of names and dates with no context (see right). Even if they do figure out how to scroll sideways, because none of the columns are fixed it means by the time they get across to the vice-presidents etc they can no longer see which presidency they're attached to. This is an issue with both versions, not just yours, but it's worth bearing in mind; much as it annoys me as IMO the mobile interface is truly shitty, more than 50% of Wikipedia pageviews are now in Mobile view so any accessibility issues potentially affect significant numbers of readers. ‑ Iridescent20:27, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, I hate it, but unfortunately 50% of readers use it, particularly since the WMF now forces it on everyone using mobile devices (even large ones like tablets) as the default, so we need to bear in mind how things are going to look in it. ‑ Iridescent19:23, 8 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, maybe someday. He came up in some research and so I stubbed him, but he doesn't particularly interest me. If I haven't done anything in a month you could try reminding me again. Or you could follow the source link and use the material there. EEng12:58, 9 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The illustration with the caption "Drawing" (it's quite interesting if you click on it once, then click on "More details" to enlarge it so you can see the details), and the one of Saltholm lend themselves to captions about Wikipedia. – Corinne (talk) 23:16, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
GRuban, look carefully at my edit summary, including the diff link contained in the edit summary. At the bottom of the diff I said, in exasperation, that the next time Zazpot removed my posts I'd simply roll back. I'm not obliged to spend my time surgically undoing his removal of my posts while preserving his subsequent posts. He's in the wrong and needs to get a grip. EEng22:17, 13 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder how many more editors are going to have to tell you to get a clue before you get a clue. When you're new to a social environment, you need to make it your job to learn what the norms are. You're wasting your own time and everyone else's, and have been doing so for some time now. EEng03:29, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Even odd couples are even numbers
Turns out I actually agree with Zazpot on something: that "couple" should mean "two". On the other hand, I am also aware that my preference for this specific meaning is not universal. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:33, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't aware it had another meaning, I've always used it as two. For example: I had a couple of edit conflicts when trying to close that ANI. TonyBallioni (talk) 06:37, 14 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. I've done enough looking around on the web to know that DCB is a unnotable talentless self-deluded poseur, the type that survives on the fringes of the art world just because someone has to fill the empty spaces in group shows in unknown galleries in insignificant places. There's really no point in expending any energy on him beyond keeping track of his insertions and deleting them on sight. He's never going to amount to anything, which is probably one of the reasons he's driven to make up all sort of untrue shit about himself -- including that he has a degree from Harvard and is an "honorary alumnus" of Johns Hopkins ([239] "About the Foundation") -- and to attempt to publicize himself on Wikipedia. It's actually rather sad, because by now the Chevalier probably believes much of what he's made up about himself. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:56, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As you know I have a special talent for this kind of invective, so it's not really as much trouble as it may seem, and I like to have something with which to occupy myself during the otherwise tedious meetings with captains of industry and world leaders. I wouldn't normally bother twice with this type, but his passing himself off as a Harvard alumnus really gets my goat. Harvard's produced its share of pricks, but they're talented pricks. He should have chosen Yale, where he'd fit right in. EEng05:32, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, do me a favor, the next time you meet with a captain of industry or a world leader, ask them how come they stopped returning my phone calls. For some reason, ever since that incident with the capybara that Fox News blew up into a cause celebre, I seem to be persona non grata among the Bohemian Grove / Trilateral Commission crowd. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:15, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's funny you mention TC, because we're looking for someone to be in charge of world cobalt prices; the current guy's got too much heat on him from the Russia thing. You interested? EEng06:18, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Cobalt, huh? Isn't that some kind of blue metal or something? Doesn't matter, I'm good to go. Just send me my diplomatic passport and International Immunity from Arrest and Deportation and I'll be on the first flight to Rio. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:01, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
EEng, Beyond My Ken: Just to help you guys out, I was going to post this on his talk page, but I don't want to spill the beans:
Unfortunately, the most applicable range of 172.58.128.0/17 belongs to T-Mobile where a block would wipe out 32K IPs. It's been done before, but for a really short period of time. 172.56.0.0/18 is another T-Mobile range that he has edited from which has a longer block history (you can probably narrow this one down to 172.56.32.0/21 to find his edits). 208.54.87.0/24 is another one he has edited under (again T-Mobile). So knowing those three should help find his edits.
“$40K a Year to Attend Harvard University as Me.” Requirements include a 4.0 GPA in high school or a 3.5 GPA in college. Only males need apply, since, as the listing tells us, “I have a male name.” The lucky person tapped for the gig doesn’t have to do much other than “attend all classes, pass all tests, and finish all assigned work while pretending you are me.” Don’t worry about having to actually get into the Ivy League school: “I’ve already taken care of that,” he says.
BMK, it looks like somebody already took the offer years ago, (passing himself off as a Harvard alumnus), and appears to have involved theft of a goat, which is not quite as severe as cattle rustling. Atsme📞📧18:47, 15 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So where I am from we used to give rope for mere possession of a running brand (Mac10s were ok, you can't hurt anyone with them) but duffing is okay if you rustle goats in odd numbers. (!) So you might want to get a GPS tracker for this goat. And that link is on purpose for 2 reasons: a goat is a goat and a ram is a sheep with an attitude; FCA doesn't make a GT model for the 1500.
A few weeks ago I was behind a 3500 with RAM written like a foot tall in the tailgate and a badge that looked about 10 inches wide. Any clue what I could have seen??
Per the discussion at ANI, you are hereby deleted from this world for wasting the 1 millionth edit on ANI. If you wish to appeal this deletion please contact the creator of the universe, whoever that may be.—CYBERPOWER(Chat)17:56, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I was looking for an image that would illustrate wasting edits, or time, and I came across The Idler (1993). I love the quote from the Ethos section:
On the practice of idling, Tom Hodgkinson writes:
[a] characteristic of the idler's work is that it looks suspiciously like play. This, again, makes the non-idler feel uncomfortable. Victims of the Protestant work ethic would like all work to be unpleasant. They feel that work is a curse, that we must suffer on this earth to earn our place in the next. The idler, on the other hand, sees no reason not to use his brain to organise a life for himself where his play is his work, and so attempt to create his own little paradise in the here and now.[1]
Just to be clear, the edit that dare not speak its name removed by Ivanvector was just a link to the latest Sassy Trump video. I'd link to it here again, minus the title, if I hadn't been threatened by Ivan. For anyone who's interested I've posted it on my talk page. Ask for me tomorrow, and you may find me a grave man. nagualdesign16:05, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, EEng. Please check your email; you've got mail! It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.
Not a Sassy Trump video, since I was barred from linking to the latest one, but a musical mashup from October last year (with no mention of any allegations of molestation, paedophilia, necrophilia or any other such BLP violating content, it's just a bit of fun): DONALD TRUMP : The Muppet Show Mashupnagualdesign22:37, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A stable genius.
A bit of off-Wiki comic relief from all the huffing and puffing that fills Wikipedia talk pages: There's been 3 more Sassy Trump videos released in the last couple of weeks. I won't link to all 3, but this one had me in stitches: Sassy Trump sings 'The Star-Something Hmm-hmm' I'm surprised more people don't do funny voiceovers. Maybe it's my puerile sense of humour but I find them hilarious. Bad Lip Reading never fails to amuse me either. nagualdesign22:30, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
For whatever it's worth, I share your sense of humor about that (and everyone knows I'm a stable genius). I liked the "no collusion" one too. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:53, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Happy Holiday Greetings
Want more yams? No thanks, I'm stuffed.
Wishing You A Happy Turkey Day!
A Thanksgiving tale...
Two pilgrims go out hunting. One has two blunderbusses (guns).
The second pilgrim queries, “Why two blunderbusses?”
The first pilgrim responds, “I usually miss on the first shot; with two I can shoot again”.
The second pilgrim pauses, then asks, “Why not just take the second one, and only shoot once?”
I think it's absolutely tasteless for Legobot to have placed this notice directly under a turkey-in-oven photo. EEng14:14, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I ask that if you have any objections that you please mention it in the talk page and find a resolution. You can't just delete pages without discussion. Thank you.
Hi, EEng. I got one of those helpful notifications that you had reverted my edit on the MOS page. Thanks, always appreciate that. But may I ask why? My reason was SCJARGON, which states that shortcuts shouldn't appear in hatnotes. I'd be happy to consider your valid and informative explanation, if you'd be polite enough to give me one. – Margin1522 (talk) 07:12, 25 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You're focusing on the letter instead of the spirit of SCJARGON, which is that a hatnote is usually clearer for refering to a page by its full name instead of by a shortcut. But where the hatnote's very purpose is to clear up potential confusion over two similar shortcuts (WP:TQ vs. WP:THQ) then to insist on not mentioning those shortcuts in the hatnote would be silly.
While we're here, let me suggest (as I do to everyone when I get the chance) that you turn off revert notifications; you'll find yourself a much happier editor. Your watchlist will still show everything, of course, just without those red flags at the top of the page sending your blood pressure up. EEng07:50, 25 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, that part means exactly what it says. I know because I wrote it. Shortcuts are a convenience for use on talk pages. They are not supposed to be discovery tools. Granted that TQ could plausibly refer to Questions at the Teahouse. But it doesn't. Someone who wants to go to the Teahouse and thinks he can get there by typing WP:TQ may be confused, but we don't have to worry about him. He can very easily get to the Teahouse by typing WP:Teahouse. – Margin1522 (talk) 09:29, 25 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of who writes a guideline, it remains a guideline by the suffrage of many others, and these others cannot automatically be inferred to have contemplated whatever interpretation you happen to prefer. But I'll avoid going further down that path by invoking IAR.
Anyway, you misunderstand the use case, which is not someone "who wants to go to the teahouse", but rather someone simply following a link to WP:TQ – a link that someone else put down, on some talk page perhaps, mistakenly thinking it would take his fellow editors to the teahouse. The hatnote gives the first editor, thus misled, a fighting chance of finding his way to the destination actually intended. Someone presumably added this hatnote out of experience, and I don't see what lofty goal is served by purging it just because it commits the sin of exhibiting a shortcut. Not sure if you noticed that I modified the hatnote [244] to make its purpose more explicit. EEng09:58, 25 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The purpose is to reduce the amount of irrelevant cruft at the top of Wikipedia policy pages. There's no end to it. If we are going to clear up the confusion about THQ, then what about Thq, TH/Q, and T/Q? Somebody might have mistakenly used one of those. My position is that these are all incomprehensible jargon and the less of it the better. No one, if asked what "T/Q" means, would say Teahouse Questions. And no one should be forced to read about that when they actually want something entirely different – the Wikipedia rule about whether periods go inside or outside of quote marks. – Margin1522 (talk) 10:59, 25 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
EEng, my wife asks if you could stop coming to my house and twisting my arm to read everything on Wikipedia policy pages. Apparently I'm in a bad mood afterwards and won't drink my Ovaltine. Beyond My Ken (talk) 17:38, 25 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, experienced users of Wikipedia know that hatnotes in general, and shortcut hatnotes in particular, are almost never relevant to whatever they may be looking for. So they just don't read them. Which raises the question, why they are there in the first place? But whatever, if I'm just going to be mocked I'll stop here. – Margin1522 (talk) 21:18, 25 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Just curious, Margin1522, are you referring to the notes at the top of many articles saying something to the effect that: "This articles is about X. For the article about Y, see..."? If so, I think those serve a valuable purpose. Perhaps the vast majority of those are about actual content articles and just a few are to help readers find the right policy or guideline page. Experienced editors already know where to find many policy pages, and also know the shortcuts to many of them. Wouldn't you say that it is mainly new editors who need help finding policy and guideline pages? If so, then the hatnotes would be helpful to them. I agree with you in one respect, though. I think if a shortcut is similar to another shortcut, the easiest and most logical thing to do is to change the shortcut of one of them so it is not similar to any other shortcut. Then you wouldn't need hatnotes, at least for policy and guideline pages. Wouldn't you agree with that, EEng? – Corinne (talk) 00:28, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The problem, Corinne, is that once a shortcut is in use, it's essentially impossible to change; for example, references to WP:THQ are already embedded in thousands of pages, and we're not gonna run around changing all those. Margin, you're not being mocked but you're still not understanding the use case. With respect to your claim that experienced readers don't read hatnotes, to the extent that's true (and I think it largely is) then you're contradicting your other claim: editors are not being "forced" to read something (experienced editors, anyway). However, in the case of new editors, who are indeed more likely to read hatnotes, they're exactly the people we're hoping to help, as I've already outlined, and therefore they're exactly the ones we want to read it. EEng03:31, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Corinne, I rarely have problems with hatnotes in article space. The problem is the cruft in Wikipedia name space, which is almost all due to shortcuts. For example, recently I wanted to find out if it's OK to upload pictures of French buildings from the 1950s (it's not). So I checked the WP:Copyrights page. That wasn't the page I needed, but before I could find that out I had to be informed that, speaking of COPY, Wikipedia also has pages on copy editing and copying material between Wikipedia pages. Well that's fine, but it's not what I'm interested in. I was also told that Wikipedia has other pages with titles that begin with the letter C. No kidding.... There are hundreds of them. But someone decided that readers of WP:Copyrights needed to be told how to find WikiProject Countries and WikiProject Council. Why those? For 99% of the intended audience it's a complete waste of time. I also doubt that new editors appreciate this stuff. More likely they hate it. It's too much. – Margin1522 (talk) 04:16, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You're absolutely right that many shortcut names (like many template names) are ill–thought out; whenever I see WP:NOTHERE, for example, it takes me a split-second to remember that it's not about something Gertrude Stein said. And because of that, hatnotes frequently save me a frustrating search for the right shortcut when I've mistakenly used the wrong one in a draft talk post – for example, I might be recommending that an editor visit the Teahouse, linking to WP:TQ; but on previewing before saving I find it's the wrong shortcut, but luckily the hatnote tells me how to fix it. (That's a made-up example only because, at the moment, I can't recall any real ones; but that doesn't change the fact that I'm sure I've had many experiences like that.) EEng04:48, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
One that hits me with some frequency is when I'm trying to direct someone to the page where it is recommended that "broken" redirects not be fixed. I often try WP:DONTFIXIT, which is an essay about "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", as opposed to WP:DONOTFIXIT or WP:NOTBROKEN. However, these occasional incidents are really not an argument for getting rid of "cruft" (a highly pejorative term in the Wiki-world), which is actually very useful information to someone. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:25, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Gage article
I have to know, why is the Phineas Gage article not at the very least recognized as a GA? In my opinion, it deserves its own tier of "GA-ness" or "FA-ness". Something like Bully! article status. Is there anything I can do to help amend this? I do not possess the heroism (or patience) to navigate the depths of your talk page for a similar discussion so I apologize in advance if I am not the first to ask these questions.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 07:39, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The very small amount of attention that has been given to [the article] can only be explained by the fact that it far transcends any case of recovery from injury of the head that can be found in the records of surgery. It was too monstrous for belief ...
Wow, I just looked through Phineas Gage<badump-tssss> and it does indeed appear to be quite a robust, well covered, well illustrated article. Outstanding (used both as an exclamation and I literally think it stands out in comparison to many other articles). --A Fellow Editor (talk) 13:30, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(Buttinsky) I totally agree with you TGS and AFE. I can't overemphasize the engaging prose by our one and only EEng, an editor I admire and consider to be extraordinary in so many different ways. I would definitely be among the FA reviewers if PG became a WP:FAC. Atsme📞📧19:57, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Roxy will need a lot of popcorn for that. I think the reason is that, once one opens the edit window, the page turns gag-inducing. I've given our fine curator a lot of grief over that in the past, but have since lost my appetite for doing so. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:18, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't mean to reopen some bad history here. I just think credit should be given for what, in my opinion, surpasses any article I have read on Wikipedia thus far. Honestly, a review just seems like a formality at this point but I can start one if that is the issue. Good idea or doomed to fail? Thoughts?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 20:28, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not certain whether it's doomed to fail, but it is very likely doomed to elicit drama, because that bad history includes a lot of editors who (unlike me) continue to hold a grudge. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:35, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If that is what it takes NYB! I am going to ask around to find an experienced GA reviewer who would take the case. I still presume this review would just be a formality but I hope I can trust any issues beyond my control -- like with sources I do not own -- will be dealt with professionally by the article's main contributors. Resentment be damned; such a well-researched piece is worth whatever drama a few editors want to stir up.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 03:26, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The eldest Oyster looked at him,
But never a word he said:
The eldest Oyster winked his eye,
And shook his heavy head—
Meaning to say he did not choose
To leave the oyster-bed.
First let me say that, while I can't deny I'm the editor most responsible for what you see in the article, many others helped substantially and even indispensably. And anyone who says they don't enjoy, just a teensy bit, seeing their work recognized is fibbing – but at what cost? Please let's not rush into anything. Someone (not me) nominated for GA in 2013, and guess what? Click to find out. I fear that in any renewed effort (whether GA or FA), what will happen is...
someone will say there should be fewer quotations, because most articles have fewer quotations, and that quotations shouldn't have links, because otherwise someone might think that the links were in the original 19th-century quotation;
someone will say there should be fewer images, because most articles don't have many images;
someone will say the citation system should be changed, because most articles use some other citation system, whether it would do good service here or not;
someone will say et al. should be italicized;
someone else will say et al. should not be italicized;
someone will say the sentences should be broken up into short declaratives, that you shouldn't use dashes, and that you can't start a sentence with However or But, because their seventh-grade teacher Miss Snodgrass told them so;
someone will say the markup is too complicated (see post above in this thread), without considering what the markup does;
someone will say there should be fewer notes, because most articles don't have notes;
someone will say that the article's not balanced because (and I am not making this up) it doesn't repeat various things things said in a children's book.
In short, there will be plenty of people advocating for the principle that an "anodyne consistency of style" is what makes for a quality article. And those are just from memory. I don't know if I feel like going through that again. Then of course, the article's not my property and it's not my decision to make.
Wow, that ANI about the earlier GAN made my head explode! (Certainly wasn't just a formality.) Maybe it would make for a good reply to that survey about ANI posted below. Maybe not. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:44, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No attempt will be made by me to cite analogous nominations, as after ransacking the literature in quest of such, I learn that all, or nearly all, soon came to a fatal result.
EEng - it's Happy Hour, and all I can do to refrain from sharing my candid thoughts. I can relate to what you've had to endure. (pause to retrieve a chilled mug of... use your imagination). I try to steer clear of things I'm not young enough to change...and I can't understand how in the hell that wonderfully composed and exceptionally well-written article doesn't meet the criteria for FA, never mind GA. Having said that, I understand why you don't want to be subjected to the drill, and decided instead to let it be what it is. Sometimes we just have to stop arguing and simply let them be wrong. Atsme📞📧22:23, 30 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
EEng I'll refrain from this topic for a few weeks. I apologize for causing any grief over what I thought was a bit more straightforward than it turned out to be. I don't know if there is some major politicizing or a grudge match keeping you away from the credit you deserve on the Gage article but I would appreciate if you re-evaluated after a period of time to see if you are up for a GA review.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 23:22, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, my eyes, my 👀, my !! 🙈 Wish I hadn't read that! The nerve of those people!!! Atsme📞📧 15:29, December 2, 2017
And look how TheGracefulSlick is now harassing one of those poor people! [247]EEng03:25, 3 December 2017 (UTC) Reminder: There will be a meeting of the white males immediately after next week's Masonic Rites. If your Trilateral Commission duties will prevent you from attending, please let me know.[reply]
"In 2011, a tagged Cuvier's beaked whale dove to 2,992 m, which is the deepest recorded dive by any mammal. The whales' rib cages can fold down so as to reduce air pockets and decrease buoyancy. But it has failed to ever get to the bottom of EEng's Talk page." [248]. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:00, 27 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Plonker: British informal. Mid 19th century (as a dialect word meaning ‘something large of its kind’): from the verb plonk + -er. - A foolish or inept person.
Prannet: British slang, depreciative. 1970s. Origin uncertain; perhaps an alteration of pranny - An idiot.
Pillock: British informal. Mid 16th century: variant of archaic pillicock ‘penis’, the early sense of pillock in northern English. - A stupid person.
Prannock: British informal. A cross between a "prannet" and a "pillock" (see above).
Prat (occasionally, Pratt): British informal. - An incompetent or stupid person; an idiot.
I normally make it a rule to only visit this page once a day, as I've limited time on teh internetz. I thought that a youtube [BLOODY SPAM FILTER link] might explain the Trumpton thing. That one made me laugh. It's worth waiting for the fire brigade roll call... Hugh, Pugh, Barney McGrew, Cuthbert, Dibble and Grub. -Roxy, Zalophus californianus.barcus20:51, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
...the holidays are upon us and I noticed a lull in WP's level of fun activity, so I thought about ways to get us into the holiday spirit. Lo and behold I found the perfect elixir - simply open a discussion about WP:BATTLEGROUND to lighten-up our spirits and get everyone in the mood of giving rather than taking. I'll start with the philosophy of taking, as so many of us see it. I liken it to BOHICA but our PAGs describe it more along the line of: If another user behaves in an uncivil, uncooperative, or insulting manner, or even tries to harass or intimidate you, this does not give you an excuse to respond in kind.BOHICA Address only the factual points brought forward, ignoring the inappropriate comments,BOHICA or disregard that user entirely. If necessary, point out gentlyBOHICA that you think the comments might be considered uncivil, and make it clear that you want to move on and focus on the content issue. If a conflict continues to bother you, take advantage of Wikipedia's dispute resolution process. There are always users willing to mediate and arbitrate disputes between others.BOHICA According to WP's give and take philosophy, we shouldn't be taking from anyone...we should be giving...so this discussion is open to all the different ways we can give back.[FBDB]Atsme📞📧22:46, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Martin, no. But hey, 5 days have passed and you and I are the only ones standing. WTH? Has everybody gone on Wikibreak? And what exactly are they breaking? Atsme📞📧04:10, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
My humor post or the vaseline comment? If my post, please archive it ASAP. I never intended for it to go too far as it probably relates more to me in recent days than anyone else. Atsme📞📧17:54, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Am I the only one, when growing, who thought grits were a luxury food that we got only got to eat once a month? We could have cream of wheat or Quaker Oats any day every day, but grits were rare. And not because we didn't like them. L3X1(distænt write)18:21, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, L3X1, you're not alone. My first 6 years as a child growing up in New England, that was indeed the case. Family moved to Texas and it became a staple in our diet. As an adult, I discovered that instant grits didn't have near the lumps and they taste even better - now that's what I call "true grits". Atsme📞📧19:18, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, although my US location and ethnic background are quite far removed from traditional grits country, I also like grits very much. And now, I'm getting hungry. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:26, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Corned beef & cabbage, shrimp & crabs with red sauce boiled with Old Bay...yummy...but with grits? Nope.On 2nd thought, if you try it Rick, let me know how it tastes. I've put homemade spaghetti sauce over grits like I do cream of wheat but grits still taste best with real butter and a sprinkle of salt & pepper. Atsme📞📧19:12, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Shrimp and crabs with red sauce? Oh no, we just steam that with Old Bay. No sauce needed ever. Gimme a dozen blue crabs steamed in beer and a generous amount of Old Bay...then again REAL Marylanders know Old Bay is better used as a seasoning, and you got to use J.O. #2 for the best steamed crabs. RickinBaltimore (talk) 19:21, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You can't please all the people all the time, I guess: someone was just telling me that they're disruptive and I should stop. Fooey, I say! EEng22:53, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Nuts are popular at Christmastime, I seem to recall ..... I don't know why I thought of "Nibble Nobby's Nuts" just now, but I did. After discovering a man was arrested for hiding a bag of nuts next to his ... well, nuts, I thought "this has got to be worth a DYK". It needs 2.7K prose to count as a 5x expansion, which should be possible just by grabbing the basic corporate history (it was founded in Australia in the early 80s, went global c. 2005, now a large conglomerate, comes in several flavors) - are you nutty enough to help? Ritchie333(talk)(cont)14:08, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I find it curious that when Ritchie333 saw the words "Nobby's Nuts", he responded by commenting here - is there a correlation? Atsme📞📧18:31, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Seems as if I've stumbled into the men's locker room. I'm looking for of the same kind of humor for the next episode of the Signpost. I need snide remarks, comedic insight and as much other ridiculousness as you want to contribute. We've got lots of time so let it stew and edit in the similar fashion I found in this discussion. Here is the next draft. Best Regards, Barbara (WVS)✐ ✉ and Merry Christmas23:36, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You have no idea the extent to which you've come to the right place. My talk page is the Harvard of pee-pee jokes. EEng01:01, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps I am way out of line here but - isn't there enough information and interest to start a whole 'nother Wikipedia related to bathroom humor, phallic phasination, and third grade humour having to do with bodily secretions? Barbara (WVS)✐ ✉ and Merry Christmas16:03, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
My mind obviously works the wrong way, but that's quite a topic! Did Norwich have a particular problem with this? And those devices seem to me to be rather ineffective: something with electricity could deliver the requisite shock. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:03, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Tryptofish, electricity was in its infancy (the closed-core transformer, which made alternating current viable, was only invented in 1885). Besides, a live wire permanently exposed to the weather would probably have sent the city up in flames—it would only have taken a single instance of arcing—quite aside from the issue that it's generally frowned upon for a church to electrocute its parishioners.
Norwich had a particular problem as its medieval core wasn't redeveloped in the 19th century so it had a lot of twisting narrow alleys ideal for peeing in, its historic wealth meant that there were lots of architecturally sensitive buildings so urine damage couldn't just be ignored, while because so much of the city centre was in private hands it was difficult to find suitable places to put public toilets. You see these things in other cities as well where the same issues existed, such as Oxford, Bath and the unbombed parts of the City of London. (In places like Amsterdam's red light district, where huge crowds of drunks are still a serious issue, they're stillinstalling modern variants; Cologne and San Francisco are experimenting with ultra-hydrophobic paint, but at over $100/m2 I doubt it will catch on.) Unfortunately, while there are lots of "hey, look at these things!" blogs from elsewhere, I can't find a reliable source discussing them in any context other than Norwich, thus we have an article about them in one particular city but not as an architectural element as a whole. (What I will say, is that now you're aware such things exist, whenever you walk through an area which mixes important civic buildings and either drunk college kids or a problem with homelessness you willstartnoticingthem.) ‑ Iridescent10:44, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the very informative and erudite reply. (It would be perfect if there were one of these on Gropecunt Lane.) Yes, I didn't really think that electricity would be a good mechanism, but given the ability of, um, aqueous liquids to conduct electricity, the image it evokes is one I find amusing. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:32, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As for Hardee, I actually think the best bit is: "In 1967, he escaped from Gaynes Hall Borstal dressed as a monk." EEng13:11, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think there's some subtle meaning there I don't understand. I used piss off in the sense of "go away, get out of here". To me, piss away means to squander something -- "he pissed away his inheritance". But I welcome any help with this. EEng19:55, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Encouraging men to piss away could also be taken literally, to mean telling them that the spiky metal bars are a signal that this is a good place for them to urinate. (The exact opposite of the intended meaning.) Instead, "piss off" can only be read as a rude way to say "go away". —David Eppstein (talk) 19:59, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, I couldn't think of anything interesting enough to justify it. While I'm aware I'm a voice in the wilderness, I strongly believe that nothing should be at DYK unless it's something readers actually would think "hey, that looks interesting"; the "Did you know that a pencil sharpener is a device for sharpening a pencil's point by shaving the end of the pencil?" problem isn't one I want to add to. ‑ Iridescent10:53, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
...now you may have insulted the culture of my people. Stand by for withdrawal of any pickled herring in your possession. Alternatively, watch the 312-minute cut of Fanny and Alexander three times. Bishonen, please block EEng for the rest of the year for cultural insensitivity. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:37, 23 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I can, to be honest, but in any event it tells the reader nothing about the actual subject. It's true crime–type gee-whiz-wow sidelight. EEng23:02, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate your feedback
Thanks for posting at the ANI (although the discussion was closed and may be considered bit ill-timed because of that, but whatever, it's fine...). I gained good amount of community feedback (including yours), and I will take it to heart, I will honor it, apply it, learn from it, and carry on positively. I appreciate your input very much, and I thank you. ~Oshwah~(talk)(contribs)12:54, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Just to repeat what I said on Tony1's talk page, I don't really blame you, because you were just imitating the widespread triggerhappy pratices you've seen at ANI regarding so-called legal threats. And you're to be commended for trying to make amends. EEng04:30, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've done all I can. The trial stuff probably should be streamlined more, but to be honest all the twists and turns give me a headache. I'm going to have to leave it at that. EEng20:03, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Do you remember the fix for the Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation. The anchor is named xxxxx? See Barbara Taylor refs. I bookmarked the fix somewhere, but I can't recall where. Atsme📞📧20:51, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Atsme, I'm pretty sure that among the pile of stuff at User:Atsme/common.js there's some code which does this. I get it as well and have learned to ignore it unless I'm cleaning up an article's refs. If you look in User:EEng/common.js you'll see the code I have to do the same thing (stolen from someone, I have no idea who). Try temporarily blanking your common.js and the message should disappear. If it's any comfort normal readers won't see the error because they won't have the js. EEng21:08, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, the culprit is importScript('User:Ucucha/HarvErrors.js'); Not sure why it shows up as an error or if it's really necessary to fix it but with that script gone, the error disappears. Apologies for any confusion I that js script may have caused. Atsme📞📧21:33, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
{{citation}} defines an anchor by default, so it is not (necessarily) an error in that case. It is possible to add |ref=none to suppress the anchor, I keep meaning to document that! {{Cite book}} etc only define an anchor if the |ref= param is set. In that case it is an indication that the intended link to that citation is missing so correcting the problem will probably improve the article. I like the "no errors, no warnings" mantra when adding content or programming, so I would always fix such a message. --Mirokado (talk) 00:49, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My only response:
A Game Warden is walking along a beach one morning when he spots a man with a bucket of lobsters.
The Warden walks up to the man, flashes his badge and says, “You’re in big trouble, buddy. Poaching lobsters is a serious offense.”
The man answers, “You’ve got it all wrong, these lobsters are my pets! Every morning I take them out for some exercise.
I let them swim around in the ocean for a few minutes and then whistle them back in.”
The Warden looks at the man skeptically and says, “Okay then, prove it.”
The man proceeds to throw the lobsters into the ocean and both he and the Warden stand there waiting.
After a couple minutes the Warden looks at the man and says, “That’s long enough, now whistle your lobsters back in.”
The man turns to the Warden and says “Lobsters? What lobsters?”
So, David - I ask...What error? Atsme📞📧22:17, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Uh-oh, you said it in terms of the death penalty, which is administered as a part of law, so that made it a legal threat. Alas, you're a goner. If only you had merely threatened to kill someone, that wouldn't have been a legal threat, and no admin would care. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:04, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You are about to be the recipient of a WTF Block...maybe
Remember how much fun you had playing with blocks as a kid?
Now that you're a mature an adult, you can collect blocks with adult letters, and they're not only stackable,
they're collectable!! You are already well on your way to surpassing Trump International! Atsme📞📧21:43, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for pointing me to this. I'm surprised I've never heard of the case before. Looks like this wouldn't need much to bring it to GA, and it would make a good DYK, especially wrt his being denied access to an attorney. I'll give it a going over next year, but in the meantime any chance you can revive the U Virginia link, currently 404? EEng00:23, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I didn't realize you'd reverted the punctuation at Sacred Cod—I thought I'd simply somehow missed it. Regardless, you're wrong—it's not about the punctuation being in the original or not, it's about what the period is punctuating. The period logically punctuates the enclosing sentence, not the quoted fragment, which is not a complete sentence that can be terminated on its own. I'm not going to editwar over it, but you are totally misunderstanding the "logical" part of "logical quotation". Curly "JFC" Turkey🍁¡gobble!00:52, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
For those playing along at home, this has its root in this discussion [259]. Apparently the OP doesn't want an answer, so I won't waste one. EEng04:07, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There was no question to "answer", and my edits had nothing to do with attribution, so they have zero to do with that discussion (they had to do with MOS:LQ and MOS:DASH). You link to an article, I read it, and I correct the MoS errors I find—and you accuse me of bad faith for that? Why the head games? Curly "JFC" Turkey🍁¡gobble!08:02, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Things other than questions can be answered, most editors seem to resolve LQ's contradictory provisions the way I do, and no one's accusing you of bad faith. Obviously you wouldn't be here if not for the discussion I linked. EEng11:02, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"most editors seem to resolve LQ's contradictory provisions the way I do"—uh ... no. I have no idea where you pull these magical statistics from, but I've read, written, and FA-reviewed more than enough articles to negate that statement. If that were the case, you would then have is a hodge-podge of quote fragments, some with the period inside and some out depending on the source rather than the logic of the sentence, which looks broken to the reader (who then may decide to "fix" it by putting them all either in or out, either breaking source–text integrity or MOS:LQ altogether). Surely this is not difficult to understand. MOS:LQ is meant to solve a problem, not cause one.
"Obviously you wouldn't be here if not for the discussion I linked."—obviously I wouldn't have clicked the link, but that's as far as you can stretch the logic, implying this is a dispute somehow carrying over from another discussion. Is that how you take it? Is it a grudge you carry over from that discussion that led you to revert all my edits? Curly "JFC" Turkey🍁¡gobble!11:23, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Your long experience at FA is disconnected from what most editors do, because most editors have no interest in that echo-chamber of rule-bound minutia-hunting unrelated to what makes an article something people would actually want to read. My experience is that most editors (unless they ignore LQ completely, and who can blame them?) simply follow its opening precept – Include terminal punctuation within the quotation marks only if it was present in the original material, and otherwise place it after the closing quotation mark – and ignore its confusing, prissy, and contradictory examples, which in many cases produce jagged-looking results.
Over at Talk:MOS you've been huffing about "contextualizing quotations" and the sanctity of attribution and so on, while meanwhile (and I am not making this up) in the article in question you actually changed the wording of a direct quote [260]. Really???
The way the source was format, it didn't appear to be a quote. I made a mistake. Whoops!—sorry. That doesn't exceuse the rest of this (it wasn't a single revert), and that sigle error was not why you reverted everything else—including the comma from the date formatting. Seriously?—is that acceptible anywhere?
I think you mean "have it in for", but anyway I harbor no hostility toward MOS – in fact, I'm the primary contributor at MOSNUM [261] and primarily responsible for its organization and presentation. I reserve my hostility for people with cramped and dwarfed ideas about what constitutes good writing who try to impose those ideas on everyone else. As we're seeing at Talk:MOS, LQ's provisions really are, um, shall we say "suboptimal", so I think the sense-talking is going in the other direction. Sorry about the comma on the year, I guess I got distracted by your changing a direct quotation in that same edit.
I believe my talk page stalkers are no longer enjoying this, so please do have the last word now. I'm sure there are many more featured articles which will get thirty views per day waiting for you to write them. EEng06:21, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Uh ... what we're seeing at Talk:MOS is that every commenter without exception is telling you your interpretation is wrong. Not one has said anything resembling the idea that LQ's provisions are "suboptimal"—only that you're having the most puzzling trouble with what's totally clear to the rest of us. What's now more surprising is that a contributer to MOS:NUM would revert to a non-standard date format (covered in MOS:NUM) and not fix it even after pointing it out. "Have it out for" is perfectly standard English, by the way—it's not in the least hard to find real-world examples of it. You're really bending over backwards trying to look me bad, aren't you? It'd be nice if you looked at this as a "how can we solve this?" issue, rather than "how can I beat this fucker?" Your last comment makes it clear that'll never happen. Hey, talk page stalkers—EEng keeps calling on you to pile on me. What's holding you back? Curly "JFC" Turkey🍁¡gobble!03:48, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, sorry, didn't notice you were still here. You can find unselfconscious examples of irregardless as well. When someone invites you to have the last word, you do know that's a test, right? EEng20:41, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
When someone politely invites you to correct an error you've reverted, one doesn't expect you to invent English prescriptions at them to make yourself feel better. How many days are they to stay uncorrected, Top-MOS:NUM-Editor? As well as the MOS:LQ errors you've finally gotten around to admitting were your error? Or do we just get more of your headgames as you play The Ultimate Comeback? Given the mess at Talk:MOS, one would expect a little humility at this point. Curly "JFC" Turkey🍁¡gobble!02:01, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
correct an error you've reverted – huh? When someone invites you to have the last word, you do know that's a test, right? EEng05:31, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm talking about your bullshit in article space—you're playing head games. Why is playing head games so much more important to you than fixing your fuckups? That's a rhetorical question. Just fix your fuckups. Curly "JFC" Turkey🍁¡gobble!06:55, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm talking about the fact that telling someone to correct an error you've reverted makes no sense, since an error that's been reverted has thereby already been corrected. Head games – that's such groovy vernacular! So with it and hip! I dig it, daddy-o! But hey, dude, when someone invites you to have the last word, you do know that's a test, right? EEng07:37, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't reverted any of his edits, and I'm not about to start—he's been accusing me of bad faith from the get-go. I'm not about to feed that by giving him the excuse to accuse me of editwarring. He's made it clear he doesn't want me touching his article. Curly "JFC" Turkey🍁¡gobble!15:53, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I encourage my glittering array of talk page stalkers to take a look. Myself I'm going to just keep watching for now. I long ago decided to let my block log stand as a monument to the 3% of admins who are fools or jackasses (with one or two exceptions, of course) so I don't have the emotional investment many others do. EEng22:24, 4 January 2018 (UTC) Later clarification: What I meant is that there are one or two exceptions among the admins who have blocked me; among admins in general, 97% are emphatically not fools or jackasses. 16:42, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Based on some of the comments I've read about block logs, we should be proud of them. One argument I've seen more than once over the years is that we should want to keep them in public view because it exposes the insanity that plagues WP. Atsme📞📧16:40, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I thanked you
...for comments in your edit summaries. You have a block log? Well, I'll get some popcorn, put on some background music, put my feet up and read the novel for myself. Best Regards, Barbara (WVS)✐ ✉ 13:20, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't want to clutter the current Lobotomy talk page section with this since it's sort of tangential to what's being discussed in that thread, so I'm just posting it here instead.
I think one limitation of the current notes is that what constitutes a "passing mention" isn't really clear, at least not to me. E.g., I can't distinguish how the existing article statement – "In Sylvia Plath's 1963 novel The Bell Jar, the protagonist reacts with horror to the "perpetual marble calm" of a lobotomized young woman." – qualitatively differs from these recently added and reverted statements which discuss how lobotomy is portrayed in a cinematic work (i.e., I'm not sure why these should be reverted based upon the current censored notes and the works that are currently covered in the article section):
It is revealed in the fourth season of the Netflix show Bojack Horseman that the title character's maternal grandmother, Honey Sugarman, was lobotomized. Her husband forces her to undergo the procedure after manic depression brought on by the death of her son causes her to act erratically. The procedure is not explicitly mentioned. Honey Sugarman's husband Joseph tells his daughter "What’s broken in the heart can never be repaired, but the brain, well, we have all sorts of science for the brain!” and shortly afterwards Honey is reintroduced with a subdued personality and a large scar on her forehead. This is the last time the audience sees the character's face, subsequent appearances only show a silhouetted shadow with a pronounced forehead scar. (revert diff - refs omitted)
The fourth season of BoJack Horseman, released in 2017, reveals that BoJack's grandmother was given a lobotomy to prevent her "womanly emotions getting the better of her", following the loss of her son in the war. The procedure leaves her an emotionless shell of her former self, and she is portrayed at the piano playing a single note, where previously she had played and sung lively tunes with her son. (revert diff - refs omitted)
That said, I'm not familiar with "BoJack Horseman", so if the issue pertains to including that type of show, I suppose that would explain the removal. It's not described as a horror show though. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 07:42, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The usual test for popcult inclusion is that sources tell us that a work either illuminates the subject in a significant way, illustrates how the subject was perceived, or itself affected popular perception of the subject. That's how we cut down the once-long list of trivia to what you now see. But really, the purpose of the hidden comments is primarily to end the chronic reinsertion of two particular films, white the hidden comments actually name. That was 90% of the battle won. Anything else can be handled with the usual BRD. Honestly I find it fantastic that this much effort is. Don't expdnded on a solved problem. EEng08:03, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, ok. I don't have any more thoughts on the matter being discussed in that thread, so I don't think I'm going to comment further. On another note, since this page is ginormous, you might want to consider archiving like 200 or 300 threads. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 08:40, 6 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously though, it takes me between 10–15 seconds to actually commit an edit to your talk page on my connection due to the sheer size of this page. Edits to pages that aren't absurdly/massively bloated typically take a second or less to commit. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 07:20, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway, would you like me to create Template:Editnotices/Page/Lobotomy using the following edit notice? This notice isn't intended to replace the current censored notes in the Lobotomy article since those are clearly necessary and address a more specific issue. I just think that an edit notice like this one might help to further reduce the workload for you and other regular editors of the article if it's used together with the censored notes in that section.
If you're interested in using an edit notice but would prefer to word it differently than the one below, feel free to revise the notice here and I'll use the revised version. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 07:20, 7 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Proposed edit notice
Attention editors:
The majority of edits to this article's "Significant literary and cinematic portrayals" section which add new content about the portrayal of lobotomy in popular culture are unencyclopedic and therefore promptly reverted. If you intend to add new content to this section, it is requested that you seek feedback about your proposed addition on this article's talk pagebefore adding it to the article.
Plans for a follow up hook have been thwarted a bit as the not-very-notable “glamour” model known as Teresa May has been AfDed a few times. She apparently released a video, “Teresa May’s Punishment Party” which seems an appropriate title for her more famous namesake. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)23:03, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Because WP lacks an "against my better judgment barnstar",[262] this red barnstar is for the new and revolutionary policy in the Manual of Style that you devised for attributing quotations, and any similarity to a Soviet star[263] is accidental and not even worth mentioning in a footnote to a footnote. Perhaps this award will jinx us and the improvement will be reverted, but you can at least briefly enjoy this thingy, as much as such things can (or should) be enjoyed. Cheers. Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:04, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The IP left an edit summary of "added regulation for oceanic countries but was too lazy to cite. Although what i have added is true to the best of my knowledge". L3X1 Happy2018! (distænt write)17:24, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oooops.....
It was take your kids to work day - soooo sorry. Won't happen again. –Atsme
Back in the late 70s-early 80s, we installed a tornado shelter that also serves as a nuke fall-out shelter which I liken to "prolonging the effects of radioactivity" = WTH will be left to live for after such an attack? Atsme📞📧23:25, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The starry nights would be a thing to behold, assuming you weren't blinded by the thermal radiation. When you consider all the atmospheric tests carried out until 1980—over 500 in total—plus 3 times that number underground, underwater and even in space, a lot of us have already survived the kind of effects you might expect from all out nuclear war, assuming you don't live near an area that gets bombed. Anyone who lived east of the Rocky Mountains during that period would have been better off turning their home into a permanent fallout shelter rather than building one in the garden that they never used, since it was literally raining down on them on a regular basis. nagualdesign03:18, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've enjoyed working with you, Nd, but the idea that the radiation effects on populations from testing is anything like the effect on populations during an actual nuclear war (even those far from targets – if indeed there will be any such populations) is nonsense. EEng04:41, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It depends entirely on where you live and how many bombs would be detonated if there was a war. I expect that 500 or so, fired in anger, would be enough to level most major cities and military installations throughout the world and bring an abrupt halt to proceedings. Places like Yellowstone wouldn't be viable targets, yet it received quite a lot of the fallout from the Nevada tests. My point was, don't underestimate how bad things have already been. At one point they were detonating more than one a week, yet most people only ever consider the bombs they dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
You don't have to prepend your opinions with "I've enjoyed working with you but...", by the way. I've got my big boy pants on, I can handle a bit of opposition without being offended. nagualdesign05:02, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A buddy of mine is still in the Army, and spent the last couple of days at the Naval base there waiting for a ride on a boat back stateside and spending time with a girl he knows there. He has his MP tab and after the false alarm, got put on active duty and volunteered to the longshoremen to help mop up some sailors that didn't respond to a duty call, just an hour or so after the alarm.
He told me last night that almost all the sailors he found were having sex in their own digs (mostly off-base); with enlisted sailors under their command, with hookers, with their exes, and one even with his sister. Apparently, sailors have some pretty firm ideas about how they want to go out, and much less firm ideas about whom they want to go out with. Just thought I'd share. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPantsTell me all about it.00:19, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Have you seen this? I love it. User talk:Oshwah#Vandal part two. I wonder if two vandalisms equal one positive, and three become negative, like numbers. (From looking at Oshwah's talk page, I have concluded he is a saint. Invariably polite and helpful, no matter what people say to him.) – Corinne (talk) 17:51, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have BIG plans for the April Version of the Signpost but it is super duper secret and I can't leave it on your talk page because, believe it or not, my edits are being closely watched?!?!?! I can involve all the other talk page stalkers and it will be a lot of fun. Basically, you will respond to interview questions. Before you begin to respond, I will assign you an imaginary character. You will respond as the imaginary character probably would. For example, perhaps you would like to respond as Donald Trump's left shoe. Or you might be a famous sock puppet. Call me crazy, but this will work and no one will know it's you because it will be a super duper secret. Best Regards, Barbara (WVS)✐ ✉ 00:56, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sickened by the thought of being that close to one of Trump's feet. Oh, and Barbara, you may think it's secret, but the Russians already know all about it. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:08, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Although, like the Brittle star, Trump's cake hole doubles as a shit hole, his speech from May last year really resonates with me today, and if I was to elect a representative to stand behind a podium and issue a statement on my behalf this would be it: You Can't Let Them Get You Downnagualdesign00:49, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hygienic corn
Be honest. You've been on the internet long enough to know that there's got to be a market for ass-ground corn, and probably a lucrative one. It can't imagine it can be comfortable being either the grinder or the grindee, though. Eggishorn(talk)(contrib)07:55, 21 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, sorry old friend, but I disagree with your last two posts there. He had a right to remove the second-to-last one (it being the bottom of a thread, so to speak, so that no one can misconstrue any subsequent posts--that seems like common sense to me: that was no falsification), and the charge that that's a habit, well, that's kind of rough and so categorical that it needs proof. But that proof should probably not come in a thread on a user talk page. Later, Drmies (talk) 02:45, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If you'll pardon me for weighing in here, I think the problem is that Coffee posted some dubious evidence, EEng responded to the evidence (in my view, fairly convincingly), and Coffee removed EEng's defense of himself while allowing the dubious accusation against EEng to remain. I get that Coffee is frustrated right now, but he kinda created that problem for himself by issuing a hasty block and then changing the explanation for the block after the fact. That's a little too shady. Lepricavark (talk) 03:16, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That is what happens in a back and forth and back and forth and etc. I'm sure Coffee could/would/might argue the same thing (and would not subscribe to your account of his supposed guilt). I'm not judging this way or that, just that it's Coffee's talk page. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 03:36, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, Drmies, that's not just "what happens". Lepriwhatshisname had it exactly right. Here's Coffee's evidence that I show up to every ANI/AN/talkpage you can to criticize what I'm doing (and borders on wiki-stalking), and my rebuttal dismantling that accusation: [265]. His response was to remove my rebuttal – but leave his phony accusation [266], as if I hadn't responded. We've all run into people who insist on having the last word, but at least they usually do that by adding a "last word" of their own, not by removing the last thing you said because – and there is no other conclusion to be drawn – they are at a loss to answer it. When what you just said is a defense against the last-worder's phony behavioral accusation, this is a shameful thing to do.
Sorry - we're being caught up in a "cross-edit" situation here - I wasn't trying to be difficult or "counter edit" (really!) On the other hand - I did have a specific reason for all my changes - including some that you have reverted. Not that any of them are real big deal, just trying to get everything absolutely clear... --Soundofmusicals (talk) 05:36, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what you're worried about. Your changes were mostly fine, and I made some adjustments. We cool. EEng06:11, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Lincoln assassination (William Crook and Ward Lamon's stories)
I suggest that the section on the Lincoln assassination page, "Lincoln premonitions" be removed, as they are second-hand stories/urban legends. Or at the very least, get some sources from more reliable historians, who point out the errors in both stories. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.240.110 (talk • contribs)
I agree the sourcing needs to be better (though I consider American Experience reliable), but I lack sufficient interest in the subject to do it justice. They do need to be mentioned somewhere, even if as unconfirmed legends; my personal feeling is that they are not really about Lincoln's assassination per se, but about Lincoln himself, his psychology, whatever, and belong in his article, or perhaps one of the other subsidiary articles on him. Undoubtedly all of the first-class bios of Lincoln touch on this, so it'd be great if you dug in. Please take further discussion to the article talk page. EEng20:56, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
User page rendering issue
Hey there, I know I've kind of made a scene about your talk page in the past (I hope this edit saves!) but today I have a bug on your user page. For me, on Win10 Chrome with vector skin, it's loading your "welcome to the museums" text box at the far left edge of the page, along with the Widener Library image and all the other Harvard-related images, and they're completely blocking off the left-side menu links. Did you mean to do that? Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:07, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's intentional, my own little sidebar. If someone desperately wants What links here or Permanent link or whatever there's a little gap in the images which allows you to get at those if you scroll a bit one way or the other. EEng15:26, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to bother you and your talk page stalkers EEng but I have a predicament I thought you could solve. Some background: I am working on an expansion for the Edith Roosevelt article; obviously, her husband is a significant part of her biography and will be mentioned more than a handful of times. How do I appropriately address Edith? First name or last name? If I use her last name, do I call Theodore by his first name to avoid confusion? Any help is appreciated.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 00:48, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Confusion
Humerus Meninges The dura mater (Latin: tough mother) or bad
Been meaning to tell you that your Wikipedia:Principle of Some Astonishment is wonderful, but then you already knew that, so why bother. It would be great to adapt this to the stuff I often see in term papers, e.g.,
In a journal article Smith and Jones (1969) stated...
Comment: Given the context we can assume the citation is a scientific article. Had they reported their findings on baroclinic instability using interpretive dance, or in Playboy, THAT would have been worth mentioning.
Reported my research via interpretive dance? No, I haven't, but I'm about to publish a paper on Phineas Gage in The Mark Twain Journal, which is somewhere on the "unexpected places to publish" spectrum, I suppose. Are you asking if I've seen examples like yours? No, but I'd be happy for you to contribute one or two. If you're asking whether it's OK to adapt ASTONISHME to your own uses, absolutely of course. If you're asking something else and I'm not getting it, say it again slowly and use small words. EEng04:41, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I do see that kind of thing all too often when a class project descends on a science page. "Studies have shown that Tryptofish's brain is mushy." --Tryptofish (talk) 21:47, 29 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You know, I always assumed it meant "matter", but it does translate as "mother"! Well, under the dura there is the spider-like mother, which is really creepy, followed by the loving mother. After that, I assume, is Dr. Freud. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:33, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, MPants at work, your "taxonomy" comment was the inspiration for my taxobox "Cuckoos". Little did I know the templates would cause me grief by being an obstruction to my ability to make it humorous. Atsme📞📧22:39, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
← Here's a prime example of a superfluous caption in the Rockall infobox that imparts no useful information whatsoever. From a boat, you say? Okay. And which island is that again? nagualdesign00:30, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sad that the current caption says nothing about the camera, lens, and choice of film or digital used for this photo. But at least we might add that the original photo was not level, because of the rocking of the boat, and that it has been cropped and leveled to prevent unsuspecting readers from thinking that the sea is usually tilted in that vicinity. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:03, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are being pig-headed about it, and you really are going against policy. And for what? A joke! There are issues worth fighting for. This is not one of them. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:34, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's not against policy to point out that there's substantial disagreement about whether something's against policy. I think we'll end up with A1 but if so it won't be because of the supervote of one loose cannon admin. EEng20:40, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Of course it's not against policy to point that out. But there is a very real case that edit warring over something that falls within the scope of the American Politics ArbCom case, and doing so on behalf of something that implies criminal wrongdoing on the Main Page, is something that puts you on the wrong side of where you should be. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:50, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
OFFS. Unstriking contributions to the discussion struck by someone other than the editors who made those contributions, and against the clear wishes of those editors, isn't edit warring. And being "connected to Russia" isn't criminal wrongdoing, so what's all the fuss about anyway? EEng20:57, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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--Tryptofish (talk) 20:56, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at ANI regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is EEng and edit warring. Thank you. —Bgwhite (talk) 07:39, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Atsme☯Consult Agent 99 14:06, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
Hafspajen (talk) 20:09, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Eman235/talk 22:11, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
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Burninthruthesky (talk) 08:56, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
Atsme📞📧 03:15, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
Eman235/talk 06:06, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
Atsme📞📧 02:01, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
. Atsme📞📧 22:55, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- it was a slip of the keyboard due to my irregular finger sizes. I'll try to be more careful in the future. [pause to treat rug burns from rotflmao]. Only you would have caught that - ❤️ your wit!!! Atsme📞📧 23:02, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
<---- fertile discussion? Atsme📞📧 01:20, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
I apologize for reverting your edit over at "What Wikipedia is not" (diff [98]). I am an experienced editor, but forays into policy and guideline pages are new to me - so I admit I was being rigid. Having looked over your user page and talk page I see that you are a very experienced editor and that you know what you are doing. So, in the future I think I will do the same for any editor who edits guideline and policy pages - before I revert with an intention to save the Universe and Wikipedia.
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Hello, I'm RexxS. I noticed that you made a comment on the page Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style that didn't seem very civil, so it has been removed. Wikipedia is built on collaboration, so it's one of our core principles to interact with one another in a polite and respectful manner. If you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page.
If you're not interested in discussion, then please keep your ad homiems to yourself RexxS (talk) 20:45, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
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Done —David Eppstein (talk) 01:50, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
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Gotta love it!! Cheers 
Atsme📞📧 22:28, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Atsme📞📧 23:09, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
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Please do not attack other editors, as you did at User talk:Leprof 7272. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Don't do this, and don't do this. Needlessly insulting the user isn't helping anyone. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 22:54, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
Facepalm Anyway, I'm glad about the self-correction, and sorry that it was needed in the first place. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:30, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
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Please do not add defamatory content to Wikipedia, especially if it involves living persons. Thank you.
😂😂😂. Atsme📞📧 19:28, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
No need for you to worry...he's probably read your user page which in itself is built-in protection against a Trump handshake. Atsme📞📧 15:27, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
once or twice, undeservedly of course. Lil 😈 01:17, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
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This is your only warning; if you trim out blatantly excessive text from a long standing rights description page making the text far more digestible and less complex for the average reader, as you did with this edit, I shall have to praise you again.
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Buttinsky) An add in Craigslist published in Readers Digest:
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!! 🙈 Wish I hadn't read that! The nerve of those people!!! Atsme📞📧 15:29, December 2, 2017
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Atsme📞📧 16:55, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
Atsme📞📧 22:17, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
I'll have you know that I'm from the north of England and have a beautiful, pasty white, malnourished complexion. nagualdesign 23:41, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
Atsme📞📧 21:03, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
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