Talk:Phineas Gage

Great article!

I read the whole thing, was drawn in and was fascinated, really fantastic. It's appropriate for subject. Should be featured. Shame so many people don't recognize talented and quality work, commercial encyclopedia's would pay good money for this. The comments above about "cold" writing being required at Wikipedia is just lol. In fact Wikipedia is 95% awful writing (myself included) so when we see actual rare good work, the crowd can't stand it because it sets off the rest to look so bad and amateur. Anyway, don't take my word, look at the user reviews at the bottom of the page, and article view statistics. People love this article. Green Cardamom (talk) 03:38, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes. A lot of that "professional" quality comes from the work of EEng in 2008-2010. This article was once rated a "Good Article" (in 2007), but was delisted in 2008, before EEng started working on it. It might be worth renominating -- however EEng has not edited since March of this year, so would probably not be available to deal with issues that arise. I could probably take care of minor stuff, but I'm definitely far from an expert on Gage. Looie496 (talk) 15:29, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say I just got out after six months in prison (they block Wikipedia) so it's comforting to find such friendly voices here on the outside. (Just kidding about being in prison -- you didn't really believe that, did you?) I can't deny I'm tickled by the praise for the article above and below. I did put a lot of work into it, but it's no false modesty when I say that it was others (Garrondo especially) that did the essential work of putting it together in the first place. If I'd started it on my own from scratch it wouldn't be nearly as good. EEng (talk) 01:09, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Just stating for the record that it was me who missed the "just kidding" part. You are all, therefore, warned as to the competency of my editing! --Tryptofish (talk) 18:14, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

P.S. I'm amazed at how little (relatively) the article has changed while I've been gone, but of course I'm gonna look it all over now. Y'all please let me know if I you think I do something unwise. EEng (talk) 01:35, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I echo the praise. Far too many Wikipedia articles are cold and sterile (if sometimes littered by the leftovers of earlier POV wars). The passion in this one makes it much more informative and interesting. Where such passion would get in the way of objectivity and NPOV, it of course would need to be toned down. And it's unrealistic to assume that all of our articles will ever get such treatment. But let's not tone it down in a search for anodyne consistency of style. I respect that there are a range of criteria for this, but as far as I am concerned, this is more deserving of being a Featured Article than many others we have. Martinp (talk) 17:10, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Very interesting read about a very interesting man. The author(s) of this article certainly did him justice. By the way, does anyone else thing that Phineas Gage bears a striking resemblence to Christopher Reeve? Van Vidrine (talk) 19:17, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

The resemblance to Reeve is frequently commented on. Search [5] for Reeve (see esp. the July 24 comment). EEng (talk) 01:09, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Comments

I see this excellent article has been the subject of numerous comments already so I'll try and keep this relatively brief. I should also say at the start that I haven't consulted any of the secondary sources cited in the article so my comments should be read under the presumption of my own ignorance (I could probably get most of the articles cited but I'm less certain I could locate Macmillan's book-length treatment).

Coverage: As a reader, the one item I'm left dissatisfied about is the coverage of the manner in which the Gage case was used to advance or support theories relating to cerebral localisation or other aspects of psychology, behaviour and brain function. As it stands this is limited to a brief mention of a 19th century dispute in regard to localisation theories and Antonio Damasio's hypothesis linking the frontal lobes to emotions and decision making. Note D indicates that Harlow's (1868) account was, at least until 1974, the second most cited source in 20th century psychological texts. I would like a better sense of what theories or hypotheses Gage's case was used to illustrate or support, however erroneously.

Style: In regard to the writing style, I should preface my remarks by stating that it is excellent overall and I wouldn't favour changes that are likely to render it less engaging. However, I feel there is at times an overuse of both parentheses and dashes. I think, personally, these should be used somewhat more judiciously. Dashes are useful in lending a particularly emphasis to a section of text but retain that effect only when used sparingly. Parentheses, used to clarify a point or term, I'd really only include when absolutely necessary. Otherwise, if overused, both dashes and parentheses can lend something of juddering effect to the reading experience. In regard to the use of dashes, I think that this is most evident in the lead where in many instances I would advocate the use of commas instead. If say, you removed about half of the dashes, the text they are removed from may flow better whereas their effect where they are retained would be greatly enhanced. Similarly with the use of parentheses, some should probably be retained but many, I think, should not and the information would be more easily digested if commas were substituted for brackets or if new sentences were introduced. In fact, in some instances notes could be used.

Footnote 38 should follow the bracket, no?

Note C: I'd actually like to see some of this note integrated into the main text (esp. "The leading feature of this case is its improbability ... This is the sort of accident that happens in the pantomime at the theater, not elsewhere").

Note K: "Contrary to common reports" - assuming this observation is derived from Macmillan, why would it need a separate citation?

An excellent article overall. Will it be nominated for Good or Featured article status? FiachraByrne (talk)

GAN, McMillian and Gage

First of all I want to say that I greatly admire the work done by EEng in this article, which has led it to probably become a great piece, with fine writting and really good documentation. However, I have stated several times that while McMillian is probably a great source, it is not a definitive one, and certainly there is no consensus with his position regarding the well-doing of Gage.

In the section above EEng said: Just for the record though, it turns out Gage did not function "badly", but actually quite well. This comment defines exactly the problem I find with several parts of the article, since it clearly overstates the importance of McMillian theories: it would certainly be more accurate to say that it has been proposed by an investigator that he did quite well, or that some evidence points towards him doing better than previously thought.

I find all sections till the "theoretical use and misuse" very balanced, but from it (included) to the end of the article I believe that some undue weight is given to McMillian, giving the impression that there is consensus on his theories. I find specially troublesome the "use of the case" section, where only a few lines are given on how the case has been used along the history of neurology. However, this section should probably be one of the most important ones in the article, since independently of how truly was the case of Gage he has been an icon used for over a 100 years to explain frontal lobe disorders. This section should explain how has he become such an icon, and it certainly should give minimal importance to McMillian. Moreover, the article should also make clear that many of the problems that at some point have been proposed that he suffered are consistent with frontal brain injuries and that the MRI and neurological knowledge on the prognosis of other similar cases point towards him certainly suffering some kind of cognitive problems for the remaining of his life.

EEng has stated several times that he only has basic knowledge on neurology and neuroanatomy, and he recently indicated in other article that he was involved in the preparation of one of McMillians works. While none of the two facts actually invalidate his huge acomplishments in this article, they may be hindering the advance of the article in what I think are the final stages towards GA and even FA and work with other editors is probably the only way of moving forward from this point.

In summary: I do not think right now the article is up to GA status although it is probably close, with only some (not huge) problems in balance of content along the full article (McMillians importance should be down-toned at some points) (criterium 3) and an (important) lack of content in another section (criterium 4).

I have been involved in the article, so my evaluation does not count as the requiered review for GAN, but I hope that nevertheless is taken into account.

--Garrondo (talk) 07:40, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Some editors know from earlier discussions that I am the second author of Reference #20, and first author mentioned in Note Z, of [6]. I prefer not to broadcast this because (a) I do not want to be seen as playing the "expert card" and (2) my professional work requires that any internet presence connected to my real-life identity be extremely low-profile. I ask that other editors help keep it that way by referring to my identity only obliquely. (I'm not in the CIA or anything, so it's not like you'll be responsible for my death, but it's the nature of my work that everything I write can become the subject of discussion.)

An illuminating question

To get this discussion restarted, let me pose a question which I think will be illuminating:

The article says that Gage died in 1860, citing Macmillan. But most sources ([7]) say Gage died in 1861. So how come the article doesn't present this as some kind of controversy, explaining that sources conflict as to the year Gage died? Or should it?

Discussion of this question should encapsulate, in miniature, the larger question Garrondo is raising.

EEng (talk) 02:22, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I had not seen this after all the edits back and forth on format. I simply do not see your point. I do not see the relevance of McMillian giving a different date. He may or may not be right, we cannot know, but nobody has really discussed Gage's death date over the years (probably few care). As such there is no controversy; whereas many people have make important contributions to neuroscience using him as an example of one theory and the other and such use is by itself relevant and notable.

Once again: I have nothing against McMillian, and he may be 100% right or 100% wrong or somewhere in the middle we cannot know. Future works will go with him or against him, and there is nothing wrong with that. Howevever until them I believe it is a good idea to present his proposals as that, as proposals from an author based on data and his interpretations from that data (that is the problem of history, hardly ever based on hard data). In this sense I have to say that right now the article makes a good job in most sections since it usually presents info attributting it to McMillian and letting the reader decide how much weight he gives to it.

Once said that: even if he is 100% correct is irrelevant. Historical use of Gage's case is notable, and cannot be simply dismissed in a few lines as fully faulty, which is what is more or less done in the use and misuse section right now.

As I have always said: if you really want to improve the article in a neutral tone we could discuss how to do it.

--Garrondo (talk) 14:32, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Revision to the introduction

Subject to JVdb's permission, points have been numbered below to ease discussion

• 1. I have made a revision to the Introduction, but only to put it forward. I did like the previous introduction, but maybe it can be simpler, and I hope this will help. If it is reverted, perhaps we can discuss the following and incorporate any that are agreed upon.

• 2. 'now remembered'->'remembered' as he has only ever been 'remembered' for these things.

• 3. +'at the age of 25' as I think it helps the first sentence stand alone - combined with birth and death dates it helps the reader understand he lived many years after the accident.

• 4. Regarding '—at least for a time—', I feel that any recovery he made is best relegated to later in the introduction, as his fame is due to the improbable nature of the physical accident and survival, and the medical interest in the effects. The extent of his recovery was not known until recently, meaning it was not an important aspect of his notability, and in any case the recovery fits within 'effects on his personality and behavior'.

• 5. "no longer Gage" - the sentence was already used 'profound effects'. I think "no longer Gage" can be omitted without loosing too much of the punchiness, and removing it simplifies the sentence considerably.

• 6. I feel that the last paragraph of the introduction, about the daguerreotype and social recovery hypothesis, needed to be more of a summary of the recent findings (the 2008 advert, 2009 daguerreotype, and 2010 portrait) and the impact these findings have had on scholarship and our understanding of the man. Describing the 2009 daguerreotype and not talking about the 2008 advert and 2010 portrait felt a bit imbalanced and odd.

• 7. It would be nice to say something like 'With no new primary sources about Gage having been made public since 18??, there has been three new portraits and a report unearthed since 2008, sparking a scavenger hunt in North and South American.' :-) When was the last 'new' info, prior to 2008?

John Vandenberg ^(chat) 05:26, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

The accident

Subject to JVdb's permission, points have been numbered below (continuing the numbering from previous section) to ease discussion

• 8. I note that we don't have any details about his life before the accident. Did he have brothers or sisters? Who were his parents? Where did they live in New Hampshire, and what type of home did he enjoy? We know of one sister, and that her husband was "D.D. [David Dustin] Shattuck, Esq." and we know a little of there whereabouts.

• 9. The nature of the accident feels a bit hard to grasp quickly, due to the interspersion of quotes. A nice tight and clear description of the rod and its trajectory, using modern language, would be a good addition as it would give people something they can easily quote/reuse, afterwhich a few choice quotes could then add colour and details that only have precision in the original words.

• 10. In the process of adding a concise summary of the accident, it might be necessary to drop "the American Crowbar Case" from this section, as it could be mentioned in a section more about the myth rather than the fact. It would be nice to known when this term first appeared, and how it was popularised.

• 11. The ride into town is described by the distance traveled, however I recall the duration of the journey also being recorded, or perhaps it was the time period between accident and being seen by the physician that is known?

• 12. We read that friends attended. Are there any details available about family visiting him in Cavendish? If not, we might revise "his desire to return to his family in New Hampshire" to indicate he had not yet seen his family "his desire to return to in New Hampshire to visit his family".

John Vandenberg ^(chat) 00:27, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Some comments:

10. Better now?

11. No source gives the time (vs. distance, which is known) of the ride to town. (Oxcart, so a slow ride -- I don't think oxen can be inveigled upon to pick up the pace.) Later... ah, but Williams and Harlow both give time they arrived to treat Gage, which is close to what you've asked for -- now in article. EEng (talk) 05:23, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

12. Harlow's notes (1868) for Sept 14 say Gage "recognizes his mother and uncle", who apparently arrived sometime after 7 am. This is only 14 hrs after the accident, and Lebanon is 30 mi away, so the family must have summoned almost immediately (no telegraph or railroad!), consistent with the idea that Harlow and Williams quickly pronounced the injury mortal. The uncle was likely Calvin Gage (brother of Phineas' father), or possibly some brother of Gage's mother (whose names I forget at the moment. (We've invested substantial time determining where everyone was living at various points in the Gage timeline. Of course all of this is OR, but aren't you impressed?) Anyway... On the whole I don't see how this detail, on its own, adds to the reader's understanding in any useful way, but I have an idea on using it in a note on Harlow's early vs. later prognoses (vs. Gage's prognosis -- from the start he insisted he would recover).

EEng (talk) 05:43, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Abbreviations in infobox

I don't like having things abbreviated in the infobox; on first use they should be spelled out in full as not everybody will know what they mean. --John (talk) 14:20, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Image widths

The apparently randomly varied widths of the images, all down the right hand side, are ugly and distracting. I understand the problem that the indented quotes go wrong if images are as is usual alternated, but I don't see why we need images of four different widths, clumped higgledy-piggledy in rustic fashion near the top of the article, where frankly several of them do not belong. We can work around the indentation problem using :: instead of the quote mechanism (yes, I know, it's klunky), and while it is never possible to have every image exactly where it should ideally be, we can surely do a little better than the mess it is now. Take an objective look at it for yourselves. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:13, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

BTW, where there's an image at left, :: doesn't work any better than {{quote}} i.e. the presence of the photo at left keeps the quote text from being indented relative to article text proper. EEng (talk) 01:36, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree with this. --John (talk) 21:41, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

It's not my placement and sizing but the result of two other editors' actions [11][12]. So now I've restored [13] the placement and sizing which obtained for several years, though in a moment I'll change the order a little. EEng (talk) 00:45, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Per WP:IMGSIZE the images should be at the default size to allow logged-in users to set their own sizes, unless there is a special reason to depart from this. --John (talk) 08:12, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Better look again at WP:IMGSIZE, which explicitly endorses use of the upright parameter, which multiplies image size relative to the user's Preferences-selected default image size.

• You complained about the uneven img sizes introduced by other editors, I fixed it, and you have twice now [14] returned them to their uneven-sized state. I will now once again restore the uniform sizes.
• I have also moved the iron-through-skull diagram back to the lead, where's it's been for a very long time and where I think it's appropriate. Can we leave of discussion final img placement and sizing until the text is more settled?

EEng (talk) 01:39, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what's difficult to understand about In general, do not define the size of an image unless there is a good reason to do so: some users have small screens or need to configure their systems to display large text; "forced" large thumbnails can leave little width for text, making reading difficult. Is there a reason you want to force all the images to weird sizes? --John (talk) 20:01, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

And I'm not sure what's difficult to understand about the use of upright is preferred wherever sensible. Once again, you misunderstand the very policy (WP:IMGSIZE) you are quoting: upright=x.x (which the article uses) is not a forced image size -- you may be thinking of XXpx, which is a forced image size. The "weird sizes" of images see in the article at various times have always been the result of you and other editors messing with them. Once again, can we leave discussion of img placement and sizing until the text is more settled? EEng (talk) 01:15, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Final comment

WP:SEEALSO and WP:PROSE are worth a look if anybody ever felt like getting this to GA standard. The verbose notes could be trimmed by about 90% as well. Good luck! --John (talk) 18:06, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

As the reviewer, I disagree with your assessment that the current state of MOS compliance or lack thereof should be a hindrance for GA status. I agree that the notes should be trimmed and the prose made clearer, but it is not a requirement for GA.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:13, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I have just moved one note definition from the infobox to the notes reflist. I will move the rest in a series of edits (please though continue to edit the article as normal). This will make the source correspond more closely to the display and the note text will be easier to review. --Mirokado (talk) 21:00, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Caption style

One editor [16][17] changed this caption:

[etc etc] Note partially detached bone flap above forehead

to

[etc etc] There is a partially detached bone flap above the forehead

with the edit summary "Inform don't instruct." I've heard this before -- that it's somehow insulting to "command" the reader to note something -- and I think it's absurd. (By that reasoning, articles shouldn't have a See also section.) Note is a standard, compact way to point something out, and it's silly to bloat the caption this way. Same goes for changing above forehead to above the forehead.

The additional volume of text isn't large in this example, but where space is at a premium even a little bit can matter. Plus, it just sounds weird.

EEng (talk) 02:59, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

MOS:NOTED. And, not to be bitchy, WP:OWN. --John (talk) 13:11, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

It is unreasonable to accuse the main contributor of ownership everytime he or she objects to some modification of their work, particularly when they do so with a sound reasoning and justification. In order to maintain a good editing environment it is necessary that contributors show a modicum of respect for those who have put in the bulk of the work, and it also sometimes require them to defer to the judgment and taste of the main contributer. This kind of respect is in fact written into several of our policies that state that MOS choices of the main contributer should be respected and not changed simply because one's taste is different. If we are to improve this article collaboratively I suggest that we start using the talkpage for reasoned argumentation, and I also suggest that we start focusing more on content and substance and less on issues of aesthetic taste and form.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:18, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Also you seem to be misapplying MOS:NOTED which is about using editorializing language in texts, and specifically talks about the phrase "note that". It is entirely encyclopedic and not editorializing to use the phrase "note ..." to draw attention to a particular aspect of an image.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:21, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

It's not a case of being different, it's a case of being wrong. Eric Corbett 14:22, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Well from where I am standing it is a case of respecting the work and choices of a hardworking context contributer of which we have none to many.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:24, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Not when they're wrong, as in this case. Eric Corbett 14:26, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

In this case "being wrong" is apparently just another way to say "disagreeing with Eric Corbett".User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:28, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

You would do yourself a favour by actually reading what WP:NOTED has to say and avoiding personal remarks. Think you can do that? Eric Corbett 14:32, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

You would do Wikipedia a favor by finding somewhere else to show off your grand editorship and knowledge of what is right and wrong so that we can get on with reviewing this article in a collegial fashion. You think you can do that? User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:46, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

So you can't then. Didn't really think you could. Eric Corbett 14:51, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

You are a funny man.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 15:02, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

• Three points.
• 1) GAR is peer review. Part of that is unavoidably going to be review by one's peers, and if each suggested improvement is met with "I like it fine the way it is", then yes, that's WP:OWN.
• 2) There is no provision in policy or practice on Wikipedia for us "to defer to the judgment and taste of the main contributer (sic)". If you believe otherwise, show us where it is written down.
• 3) MoS says we should not use constructions like "Note that..." I've known that for years. I've pointed out the MoS section that states this. It's an interesting article and I can see a lot of work has gone into it. --John (talk) 16:11, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

1. No that is not WP:OWN. OF course the article writer likes it the way it is because that's why they chose it like that. That is not WP:OWN unless they do so against policy or without good justifications for their choices. 2. Yes there are several places in the MOS where it says to defer to the choice of the main contributer, for example regarding citation style. 3. MOS compliancwe is not and has never been a GA criterion. GAs are not FAs. Noone has objected to writing out contractions like "i've" etc.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:23, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Gosh what a lot of red herrings in one short post. You should start a fishmongers! We are not talking about citation style. The article does not contain the string "I've" as far as I can see. Are you thinking of a different article? --John (talk) 16:27, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I actually misread the last point you made to mean that MOS discouraged contractions like "I've known that for years" sorry about that. MOS discourages use of "note that" in the prose because that is usually editorializing, using "note feature X" in an image caption is something else entirely and is not included in the MOS injunction. IN anycase the MOS is a guideline, not a law, and GA doesn't require compliance. And the point about citation style is to show that YES the MOS does show that when there are several valid style choices the MOS tells us to respect the main contributer. As it should.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:35, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

But that discretion only applies in cases where there are equally valid alternatives, such as in citation style or date formatting. It does not apply with fundamental errors such as directly addressing the reader in an encyclopedia article. Eric Corbett 17:42, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Shush up a minute

If I can dodge the flack flying around hereabouts, let me query the second paragraph. Basically it says the case, which excited wonder and influenced discussion was the first case to suggest (something)".

Fine, but smack in the middle of the paragraph it says "and even to subvert our physiological doctrines"—Phineas Gage influenced nineteenth-century discussion". Shouldn't those words "Phineas Gage" be replaced with the words "the incident" in context with the rest of the paragraph which is about the event?

OK, resume firing. Moriori (talk) 23:01, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

How dare you interrupt! Don't you know that if et al. is set in the wrong typeface Jupiter will leave its orbit and we'll all die in the ensuing cataclysm? (There are hazmat suits in the locker behind you -- suggest you wear one until your system adapts to the ambient toxicity.)

It's common in medical writing to refer to the patient/subject himself as the case and, as well, to refer to his condition/story/circumstances/etc. as the case e.g. None of these cases was attributed to malnutrition, and only one case died. It's pretty much the same issue discussed here [23].

Thus, PG was the American Crowbar Case. He was the case which more than all others is calculated to excite our wonder. He influenced discussion of the brain. (But you might also see His was the case which more than all others... or His case influenced discussion....)

There's some Latin term of rhetoric for it, but I can't remember what it is -- something like synecdoche, though that's not it.

EEng (talk) 02:26, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

You may be thinking of metonymy. --Boson (talk) 03:19, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm. I'm not sure. Synecdoche is a city in upstate New York. Metonymy is when you get bored from the same routine day after day after day. EEng (talk) 06:31, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Birthdate uncertainty

"On September 13, 1848 Gage (aged 25) ...". If we don't know what month Gage was born in then how do we know he was 25? Eric Corbett 13:56, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Macmillan 2000 p. 40 has the text of a contemporary 1848 letter published in the National Eagle (Claremont, NH), titled "INCREDIBLE, BUT TRUE EVERY WORD", which states "Phineas P. Gage, the individual referred to, is of stature thick, muscular form, and rather short; is 25 years of age, and has his home in Lebanon, N.H." The book also reprints a letter in the Boston Medical and Surgical Journal on p. 383, which also states age 25. Our article ref [G] given for the paragraph cites Macmillan 2000, so I'm assuming this is where the age of 25 years comes from. However, in that same book there are other letters that don't give that age. Perhaps the article could state "reportedly 25 years of age" or something like that. I don't have access to enough of the Macmillan 2000 book chapter to see what age Macmillan gives based on his synthesis of the primary sources reviewed, and if he gives one, that would probably be the best thing to use. If the article is using Macmillan's synthesis, that should be cited; the pages covered in the ref [G] given don't appear to cover the age. Zad68 15:25, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

You've been looking at the wrong note -- this note (though I've expanded it to address the age-at-accident point explicitly, and added a new pointer to it from the statement of age) is what you want. EEng (talk) 18:37, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Eccentric formatting

Why would we have line breaks and whitespace in all the refs? I've never seen that before and I wonder what advantage it confers. --John (talk) 07:24, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

At the zoom levels I use I find it particularly annoying, as I have to scroll much more than normal to navigate through the text during an edit. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:30, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I find it much easier to locate individual sentences / clauses if each sentence / clause typically starts on its own line. Similarly, refs are easier to find when they start on a new line of their own, and it's clearer where it ends (and regular text resumes) if the < /ref> is on its own line also, where it's easy to see.

So what are we to do when different editors have different preferences? Well, one approach to seeing something unusual (which, however, is clearly deliberate) would be to assume that those who have been editing the article for a long time find it helpful, and either just tolerate it or bring it up on Talk. Another approach is for every new arrival to redecorate the premises in the color and style he or she prefers, ignoring the preferences of those already present.

John, in re-removing the linebreaks you simply reverted to "your" last version, without regard for other changes (to text, references, notes, filling in citation pages numbers, correcting quotations) I had made in the meantime -- you just threw those away. That's unacceptable. Furthermore, your edit summary was "MoS compliant vsn; see talk", but as we see here on Talk, this has nothing to do with MOS compliance, but simply personal preference. In other words, you threw away real work in your hurry to make something the reader can't even see look the way you like it, and you justified that with a false appeal to MOS. You, like Malevolent Fatuous, have done this over and over in the last week. Please stop. EEng (talk) 08:06, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

... my pants are not on fire, actually. I guess there's no point adding what Sacks says about Gage. Or of suggesting where better it might fit. You'll just remove it, as it's "one of hundreds". Martinevans123 (talk) 08:28, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Goodness me. What an arrogant and unhelpful attitude EEng exhibits here. What does it say on the edit screen? Oh yes, Work submitted to Wikipedia can be edited, used, and redistributed—by anyone—subject to certain terms and conditions. I suppose you don't think this applies to you? It does though. Your ownership of the article, if allowed to persist, would seriously retard its development. Your writing style isn't nearly as good as you think it is, and your eccentric formatting just looks stupid. So it won't be. There is loads of material that needs to be added here for completeness, as Martin said. If that's painful to you, maybe you just need to get the hell out of the way of those trying to improve the article. I do intend to continue working on the article, and in spite of what your behaviour seems to indicate, you do not own it. Think about it. --John (talk) 08:57, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the loads of material that needs to be added...

Absolutely there's lots that needs to be added e.g. re Gage's place in the history of neurology and so on. Who said there wasn't? The problem is that stuff like

He took to travelling, and visited Boston, most of the larger New England towns, and New York, remaining awhile at the latter place at Barnum's, with his iron.

is way easier to to distill for a Wikipedia article than is

For Dupuy, the damage was posterior enough to produce both symptoms. Whether Ferrier was responsible for the shift in opinion or not, after his arguments for a more frontal site, no one seems to have referred to Gage in aphasia literature as a negative instance again. Indeed, in a comprehensive review paper appearing soon after Ferrier's reply to Dupuy, Dodds cited the Gage case in relation to the role of the third frontal convolution and the island of Reil only to dismiss it.

Are you volunteering to translate this, and the hundreds of other pages in Macmillan 2000, Barker, and other sources, into article text?

EEng (talk) 12:15, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

"Remarkably"

I removed this but I see it's been restored. We don't usually use words like "notably" (as it's self-evident that we are noting it) or "remarkably" (as it's self-evident that we are remarking on it). Why would we do so in this instance? --John (talk) 07:52, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Because you misunderstand WP:EDITORIAL. (We're talking about [24].)

• Saying something is remarkably small is little different from saying it's very or unusually small -- though sources are needed to support such adverbs, which is all WP:EDITORIAL calls for.
• The cites in the "First-hand reports" and "Distortion" sections amply support that the remarkability of the smallness of the body of known fact, but for the avoidance of doubt I'll add specific cites on this point.

EEng (talk) 01:23, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree with EEng - this is not editorializing, but simply good varied language. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:37, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

No, it's editorialising. If you really needed this in the article it could be a quote. --John (talk) 20:03, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Notwithstanding that I provided a note with a quote supporting this passage, you have again removed it. No cognizable reason having been given for doing that, I'll be restoring it. 20:35, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

It's peacockery. --John (talk) 20:53, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Wait -- a second ago it was WP:EDITORIAL, now it's WP:PEACOCk? Can't you make up your mind? EEng (talk) 03:30, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Both are subsections of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch. If I'm confusing you by referring to ideas that are perhaps new to you, I can make it simple to help you. It's shit writing; it sounds like a teenage girl's diary, not an encyclopedia. Does that make it easier to understand? --John (talk) 08:25, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Stodgy writing

In what universe is went so far as to say in line with our summary style? It sure ain't this one. --John (talk) 09:02, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Um, what does summary style have to do with it? And in what way do you see the quoted material as "stodgy"? And why is it in red? EEng (talk) 12:16, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

What does it add to the reader's understanding of the subject to include those six words where one would do? --John (talk) 12:56, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

(sigh) Your insistent statements such as [25]] "We should never use language like this" and [26] "This is a word to avoid" ignore the opening words of WP:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch: "There are no forbidden words or expressions on Wikipedia, but certain expressions should be used with care, because they may introduce bias." So what matters is whether a particular use appropriately reflects the sources; thus if you wish to continue your campaign to find something "wrong" you'll to have to read the sources cited to compare them to the article. Until you do, you need to stop changing article text to new text with different meaning.

In the instant case, you changed Bigelow went so far as to say to Bigelow said, your edit summary asserting these have the the "same meaning". But they do not, because went so far as to say emphasizes (as do the sources) that Bigelow's presentation of Gage reflected his hostility to phrenology and suspicion of localization, and said does not. Also, without the kineticism of went, you lose the setup for the next paragraph, which describes the "reversal" in thinking represented by Harlow's second report 20 yrs later.

Good writing operates at different levels for different readers:

• An unsophisticated reader may be simply unaware of subtleties of wording apparent to more sophisticated readers.
• What we might call a "semi-sophisticated" reader, realizing that other wordings were possible, may be thereby spurred to learn more by checking out the sources or discussing with others.
• But a "sophomoric" reader, making a similar realization, simply assumes that what he doesn't understand isn't worth understanding, and sets out to unclutter his mind by eliminating it.

So to answer your query, the longer phrasing indeed serves the reader's understanding. I'm restoring it.

EEng (talk) 20:35, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

This phrase only means "Bigelow's presentation of Gage reflected his hostility to phrenology and suspicion of localization" to you. To the rest of us it looks stodgy and constipated. Why not improve the poor witing, now it's been highlighted to you, rather than reverting to went so far as to say? I'd go so far as to say this is childish and unlikely to result in the improvement of the article. --John (talk) 20:57, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Just putting "said" is clearer. I really don't think that the words you've used explain anything at all about the claim that "Bigelow's presentation of Gage reflected his hostility to phrenology and suspicion of localization." If that is a point that you think needs to be made, you'll have to make it separately. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:12, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

My word, I was worried that the notes section was getting longer than the article. But we now have a hidden note that's longer than many of the visible ones. For whose benefit is all that material? The general article reader? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:01, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

You're referring to the "hidden notes" delimeted by <!​-- and --​> as seen in this diff [27]. I often copy full passages from sources and use the commenting to excerpt it. That lets everyone see that the excerpt is faithful, and allows easy adjustment of the excerpt. In this case likely more of the passage can be used eventually, but that will require some surrounding explanation, and what's shown name is enough for present purposes. EEng (talk) 23:57, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

That's a great idea. I've augmented the text, and added a note, on this point.

EEng (talk) 23:57, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Sacks and others

I have remained aside regarding most style discussions, since I am not sure they are worth it, and the tone of them is far from what should be expected.

On the other hand , recently a line on Sacks has been eliminated.

The line was: "Gage is discussed by British-American neurologist Oliver Sacks in his 1995 book An Anthropologist on Mars." I agree with EEng that as it is, it is not helpful since it does not say how can this mention be relevant. However I do think that inclussion (as I have repeatedly stated) of other uses is indeed a good idea. To include a line on how the case was used by Sacks (and any others) could be helful from my point of view, but a bit more of detail would be needed. I have to say that It's been a time since I red that book so I do not remember how much was the case used, so might be a good idea to discuss if it is really relevant and how to word it first in talkpage. Moreover, I do think that its place would be the use and misuse section, which currently is a misnomer for "misuse according to McMillian". Once again: it seems cracy that only mention of orbitofrontal cortex along the article is in the see also section, with no mention of the last 20 years using the case as an example of frontal lobe injuries.

As an example in case I have not made myself clear I would include something alog the lines: Gage is discussed by Oliver Sacks in his 1995 book An Anthropologist on Mars, in which is portraited as an example of how a frontal lobe damage... (do not think that nationality or even profession is worth mentioning).

--Garrondo (talk) 09:04, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Agree. Adding more detail would be better than removing it altogether. --John (talk) 09:08, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
• Agree. I had thought Sacks' notability as a popular writer might recommend him for inclusion. His nationality and profession were context only. He's also discussed Gage in interviews (not really surprising, I guess.) Martinevans123 (talk) 09:48, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• I think you guys are mixing up different things. Of course the material on Gage's place in the history of neurology etc. ought to be expanded, and one imagines Sacks could be used as source that could be cited for some of that new material -- to the extent Sacks discusses Gage's place in the history of neurology in a serious way (though I doubt it -- most of Sacks' writings are popular, not academic.)

  But to use Sacks' writings as a source (as just mentioned) for something we want the reader to know about Gage is completely different from the article discussing Sacks' writings themselves (which is what the removed passage does). For that we'd need (as a gating requirement, as for any other article content) other sources discussing Sacks' writings as themselves somehow significant to an understanding of Gage -- what sources would that be?

EEng (talk) 11:03, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

The single sentence on Sacks was intended as just a starting place. His work might inform our knowledge of Gage and how his case has been interpreted by neurology. Sorry if you doubt Sacks' "seriousness". Martinevans123 (talk) 11:31, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

But isn't the usual procedure to check what a source says before adding it to an article -- not to add it right off based on speculation on what it "might" say? And I didn't mean to imply that Sacks lacks seriousness in general; but re Gage vs. the history of neurology, you'll find that he doesn't treat that issue in any particularly careful way (which is fine in a popular presentation). EEng (talk) 19:02, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I must have thought this was a "popular encyclopedia article" into which a popular writer with an article on that book here alreday, might fit, rather than a learned examination of "Gage vs. the history of neurology." I read what Sacks said and thought it was relevant, digestible and accessible. That's all. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:30, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm with EEng on this one actually. I've occasionally mentioned a source directly in an article, but only when other sources have referred to it in turn, usually because they pass comment on it being critically acclaimed, comprehensive or otherwise worthy of note. In other words - is the source itself notable? If it is - put it in the article text, if it isn't, leave it out. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:52, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I like that, though I think your particular wording makes it most appropriate for evaluating formal (e.g. scientific/scholarly) publications for inclusion. For popular material I have used various versions of the following, with some success, in similar situations elsewhere:

A fictional, semifictional, or popular portrayal of an article's subject is worth noting or discussing in the article on that subject to the extent that reliable secondary sources demonstrate that the portrayal adds to an understanding of the subject itself or of the subject's place in history or popular perception.

EEng (talk) 12:32, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

One thing that Sacks does say in that book is that it was Ferrier's 1879 Gulstonian lectures that "introduced the Gage case to a worldwide medical community". He doesn't say a lot, but what he does say seems perfectly sound and useful. I think you should take a look. Sacks also contributes quotes the chapter "Phineas Gage: A Case for All Reasons" in C. Code, C.W. Wallesch, A. R. Lecours, and Y. Joanette, (eds.), Classic Cases in Neuropsychology, London: Erlbaum, 1995.

Um, well, no. A Case for All Reasons is Macmillan. As to the statement that Ferrier put Gage on the world stage, that would put Sacks in moderate conflict with Macmillan, which then returns us to the question I tried to raise above with no success. Perhaps you will see the relevance where Garrondo didn't. EEng (talk) 12:48, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, he quotes from it. It's Chapter 18 in that collection. He also has a long quote from Harlow, that he made 20 years later, about things he had missed. I don't see what's wrong with "moderate conflict" between commentators, or even severe conflict for that matter - I guess that they are competing claims that are each notable. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:12, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Um, well, yes. --John (talk) 21:34, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Or is this just the Macmillan show? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:15, 22 June 2013 (UTC)