Talk:Elon Musk/Archive 20

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Replace "businessman and investor" with "business magnate" in Lead

A business magnate is essentially both. It is a more clear way of writing it, like it is done in the articles for Carlos Slim and Li Ka-shing for example. PhotographyEdits (talk) 19:53, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

In general we've been trying to move away from business magnate and similar because they're value laden labels (its likely that Slim and Li will have it removed at some point), to quote liberally from the page you linked "Such individuals have been known by different terms throughout history, such as robber barons, captains of industry, moguls, oligarchs, plutocrats, or tai-pans." Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:08, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

I do think that 'businessman' understates his importance and power. A person with a net worth of 100k USD is also a businessman, but not really a magnate. I would argue using a stronger term here is better. PhotographyEdits (talk) 09:35, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

A person who identified as a man with 100x money as him who earned it in a similar way would also be a businessman... The second half of the sentence speaks to the importance and power. I would also note that a person with a net worth of zero may also be a business man as can someone with a net worth of negative one billion... Businessman doesn't suggest an income level. If its importance and power you wish to convey than a different value laden label like "plutocrat" or "oligarch" would fit your purposes better, but I don't think we should be using any value laden labels at all. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:16, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Second. QRep2020 (talk) 13:40, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

As the FAQ notes, the phrase "business magnate" in this article was a perennial target for frivolous edit requests. 2601:642:4600:D3B0:B948:CE1F:F8AA:83BB (talk) 17:30, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

That was a pun from himself it seems, and we obviously do not have to honor that one. But it does not object against 'business magnate' it seems. PhotographyEdits (talk) 09:32, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Err yes it does Q2: Can you update the article to call Musk a "business magnet"? (No.) A2: No... that seems a pretty clear objection. Slatersteven (talk) 10:51, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

it says business *magnet* not business *magnATE*. It is a pun from Musk. PhotographyEdits (talk) 12:47, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

OK, but the talk page archive has the question of "magnATE" raised (and rej4ected), many times. Maybe we need to add this to the FAQ? Slatersteven (talk) 12:54, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Check the archives. We discussed this at length already. QRep2020 (talk) 19:48, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

AFAIK, there was no consensus to remove business magnate in the last two discussions (here and here), but the same two editors who wanted it removed invoked WP:BLPRESTORE and that was it. Ptrnext (talk) 06:25, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

The point in regard to the FAQ is that "business magnate" was a target of disruption, and I promise you that it would be again if it were restored. Musk fans struggle mightily with comedic timing. 2601:642:4600:D3B0:B494:44BE:C294:C4E0 (talk) 02:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 August 2024

In the Politics subheading of the Other Activities section, should [this story] about Musk forming America PAC and how it is potentially farming swing state voter data be included in the paragraph about his support of Trump's campaign? Coalah (talk) 04:44, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The story is covered in the WP article about America PAC so I think it warrants inclusion here, as well. Coalah (talk) 04:47, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Added that Musk said he "created" America PAC. QRep2020 (talk) 22:13, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 August 2024

He is of Canadian and maybe Pennsylvania Dutch descent, if the Pennsylvania Dutch were the ones who settled in South Africa. Otherwise he is of Canadian and South African descent. He was able to get a Canadian citizenship via his mother. He couldn't have done that if she was British. Please do not insult Canada by implying that we are British, we are not. We may have started from British settlers but so did America. Would you call someone of American descent British, too? Canada has been an independent country for more almost 160 years, please remember from now on that we are a separate country from England and the UK. I really like the UK, but to call us British is just as bad as calling us American, or calling Austrians, German. Theshowmecanuck (talk) 00:16, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 01:44, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

A sad sad photo

Y’all really gave him a sad sad main photo. I object to this change. Alexysun (talk) 10:11, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 August 2024

Elon musk got rich from selling nudes 73.129.26.236 (talk) 05:21, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cowboygilbert - (talk) ♥ 05:22, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Main Image

Currently, the main image in the infobox is an image from 2023. However, a more recent image taken by me of Musk at a conference in Montana last March may be better as it is more recent. I would like to know what you all think Wcamp9 (talk) 03:29, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

looks like he got manbewbs in that pic 122.54.207.116 (talk) 00:15, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

At this point, we have cycled through several images in the past month. I recommend we stick with the current selection and leave it be for now. Towards that, I will add a comment to the article's source code asking that future image changes be first discussed here. QRep2020 (talk) QRep2020 (talk) 02:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@Wcamp9 To be frank, it’s a bad photo. It makes him look sad. Alexysun (talk) 10:12, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

The current image is low-quality. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 00:09, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

The images that are getting replaced in infobox are all of low-quality/low-resolution. I have reinstated the last stable, high-quality/high-resolution image of Musk to the infobox. Svampesky (talk) 03:45, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 September 2024

(EDUCATION) where he earned two degrees: a Bachelor of Arts in economics, and a Bachelor of Science in physics from the university's Wharton School. (Interchange the words physics and economics words) Shadabqurashi (talk) 05:54, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Bunnypranav (talk) 08:28, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Profile image

The profile image keeps getting changed. It is probably the least important element from an encyclopedic standpoint and yet gets so much editor attention as of late. Can we please decide on a semi-permanent image? 22:50, 6 September 2024 (UTC) QRep2020

@QRep2020 I put the image back to the most recent 2023 image rather than keep the current image where he looks unkempt. From WP:BLPIMAGE "mages of living persons should not be used out of context to present a person in a false or disparaging light. This is particularly important for police booking photographs (mugshots), or situations where the subject did not expect to be photographed." Several of the images people have used were from different angles or were in crowd situations where he wasn't expecting a photograph. The one I now put back is from an official photo when he was expected to be photographed. Ergzay (talk) 23:47, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

@Wcamp9 I suggest discussing before changing the image. Pinging you as you've changed the image several times. Ergzay (talk) 23:51, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

This [[1]] seems to be a crisper image. Slatersteven (talk) 14:49, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Remove "conservative political activist" from leading statement.

This is a charged and controversial statement presented as if it were an established fact, which does not adhere to Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy. If it is to remain in the article, its placement should be altered and rephrased as (for example): "several commentators and media outlets have described Musk as a conservative political activist". BozzaNova69 (talk) 03:42, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree, While (no doubt) RS can be found for saying it, it is also very much this year's news story. But I am unsure that (in the great scheme of things) this is part of his notability, rather his notably is why this is getting coverage. Slatersteven (talk) 09:40, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree, it should be removed or put in another section of the article. Opok2021 (talk) 21:02, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I removed it as it violates MOS:ROLEBIO. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:26, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Good to hear, thank you. Opok2021 (talk) 02:27, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 September 2024

Please change the first line calling Musk a “businessman” to add that he is a “conspiracy theorist.” While he is a businessman, the main reason why people know him and speak about him is because his conspiracy theory comments. 136.34.40.1 (talk) 21:49, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. - FlightTime (open channel) 21:50, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Shivon Zilis

Why is she not listed as one of Musk's partners in the infobox? I mean she has 3 children with him. 68.187.65.220 (talk) 11:57, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Do RS say she is a partner, or just that she had had kids with him? Slatersteven (talk) 12:01, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

We have some, but most don't call her that they just refer to her as an employee and baby mama. Do we have an actual consensus on whether repeat baby mamas count as partners for wiki purposes? One pregnancy I get it, lots of ways for that to happen... But two pregnancies, three kids, and cohabitating? Thats a partner of some kind... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:22, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Wealth section shrunk too much?

The wealth section has been shrunk down to two sentences. If it's only worth two sentences of summary I don't think it deserves its top-level section and the page that was created with the content is pretty small itself. Ergzay (talk) 05:50, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

As it is going to change it will never be much use. Slatersteven (talk) 13:53, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

@Slatersteven "Never be much use" is kind of my point. If it's not important, it should be re-arranged to not be a top level entry at least. Ergzay (talk) 09:47, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Taylor Swift...

I think this needs a sentence distillation, surely. Electricmaster (talk) 16:33, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

As disgusting as it is, I doubt the story will last or that there will be any impact on anyone. Trump's statement that "Taylor Swift will pay a price for endorsing Kamala Harris" is much more dangerous. O3000, Ret. (talk) 17:55, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Either way, it should be mentioned. Musk does have a reported and found in court history of sexual harassment and flatly his commentary should be included to that. Coasterghost (talk) 00:00, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Is he saying that he wants Taylor Swift to be the mother of his 13th child or is he saying that he wants her to adopt one of his 12 known children? Have any reliable sources discussed this ambiguity? Cullen328 (talk) 03:12, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I think the meaning is pretty clear, but here are some interpretations in the press:

• https://variety.com/2024/digital/news/elon-musk-father-child-taylor-swift-disgust-creepy-1236140915/ - "Pro-Trump multibillionaire Elon Musk, the richest person in the world, was blasted on his X social media platform for suggesting he would impregnate Taylor Swift after she endorsed Kamala Harris for president and signed her post “Childless Cat Lady.”
• https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/elon-musk-taylor-swift-child-1235099654/ - "And it seems that at least one major Trump supporter, the always-thirsty Elon Musk, thought he could weave viral magic by responding to her with an offer of insemination."

QRep2020 (talk) 04:01, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I think that it is interesting that Variety used the phrase "12 known children". Those two sources clearly interpret his intention as "have unprotected sex with her" as opposed to "get rid of an unwanted kid by sending one of his multiple toddlers to her". Cullen328 (talk) 04:39, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Rolling Stone is not reliable for politics. Trump says plenty of outlandish statements, yet his article is mostly barren of them. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 05:49, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

The RS article isn't cited for reporting political facts, but for describing a seemingly gross parasocial interaction as such. I can remove the political drapery from the quotation if that helps. QRep2020 (talk) 14:01, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

New York Magazine: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/elon-musk-taylor-swift-response-worse-than-you-think.html - "Musk is openly sexually harassing Swift on X for expressing a political opinion; he has previously been accused of sexual misconduct (which he denies). And the remark ties in with other weird and unsettling things the billionaire has said. Musk — who has fathered at least 12 children with three women — is obsessed with low birth rates, which has led to him spreading the “great replacement theory,” a white-supremacist conspiracy theory (though he says he doesn’t “subscribe to that”)." Coasterghost (talk) 08:53, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@Coasterghost He deleted and apologized for making the tweet that _could be interpreted_ as supporting great replacement theory, calling it "one of the most foolish, if not the most foolish, thing I've done". The wikipedia page itself talks about that. He never made any statement outright expressing it. And secondly being obsessed with low birth rates has nothing to do with replacement theory nonsense. Many people (myself included) in many countries on earth are obsessed with low birth rates and very few of them subscribe to white-supremacist nonsense. Ergzay (talk) 05:39, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

@Ergzay And? Just because he deleted and apologized for it doesn't make it as if it never has happened. with. Given the United States political climate, and his support of Trump, and JD Vance's (Republican Vice President Running-mate) obsession about childless adults its very easy to connect the dots. Also the sheer fact of his 'offer' can be constituted alone on sexual harassment, which is a notion that I brought up in the quote. Additionally he has reshared content that is directly pointed to the great replacement theory. This has been covered by online media as well. So say what you will, but his apology is for all intents and purposes moot considering the views he has repeatedly shared. Mind you we are talking about a man, a United States Defense Contractor via SpaceX who is now on the radar of the United States Secret Service for his postings given the second assassination attempt of Donald Trump. Coasterghost (talk) 13:44, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

@Coasterghost You didn't respond to what I wrote and instead chose to talk on unrelated topics. You should review WP:SOAPBOX. Ergzay (talk) 09:52, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

@Ergzay I did respond. First and Foremost, the quote that I shared from the New York Magazine was talking about him sexually harassing Taylor Swift and the inclusion of that quote was to add an additional source citing that is reliable for politics. New York Magazine is reliable for politics.

Secondly, going to your comment which you took particular notice to the inclusion on the the great replacement theory in the quote I had used. While he did not explicitly type it out, he has indicated through this actions that he does indeed support the great replacement theory. To quote The New Republic (which is marked reliable for politics) story that I linked after the mention of his tweet; But even if you accept this bogus distinction, the video Musk is actively endorsing—his pinned tweet said, “This is actually happening!”—absolutely does allege a vast conspiracy. It describes an “open borders plan to entrench single party rule,” in which congressional Democrats and the White House deliberately allow in “millions” and “keep them in the country at all costs,” all for the purpose of ensuring “their loyalty to the political party that imported them.” That fits pretty well into the wording on the great replacement theory in the United States page.

Furthermore, his comments regarding Taylor Swift offering her a child after she endorsed Kamala Harris, was interpreted by many as offering to father her child and I was connecting that to his endorsement for the 2024 election.

At the end of the day he did sexually harass Taylor Swift and that should potentially be noted in addition to his apology. However, there needs to be a discussion about his mentioning his defacto endorsement to the great replacement theory, because his actions speak louder then words. Coasterghost (talk) 13:08, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

This is more soap boxing and not related to what my comment reply was primarily about. You should look narrowly on what I actually wrote and not try to soap box on the wider topic. You should also review WP:RGW. Ergzay (talk) 15:43, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

You are focused on his viewpoint of the Great Replacement Theory and his pseudo apology. That is what I am answering. His quote that you mentioned explicitly "one of the most foolish, if not the most foolish, thing I've done" is from November 29, 2023. It was also about posts the White House called “antisemitic and racist hate." The post that I am referring to, in my rebuttal to you is from March 19th of 2024. His apology does not give him carte blanche to continue to act with willful ignorance. Additionally the tweet at the heart of this, the Taylor Swift tweet is still up. https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1833728804579111268 Coasterghost (talk) 17:03, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Here’s two men who have been given all kinds of trips, money, fame, intelligence, and they consider others their property. Trump says he can grab any woman’s junk anytime anywhere. Something to that effect. Elon Musk chooses to hang around this man! The two of them create one of the grossest American pictures I can think of! These two man are so full of themselves, they’ll destroy women to satisfy themselves. Also known in the human species as gross pigs. 69.161.78.199 (talk) 06:38, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree, disgusting and childishly low life as this is, its just gob shittery from someone who if they were not very very rich would be standing on street corners accosting passers-by. Its trivia. Slatersteven (talk) 10:10, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@Electricmaster In what other instances do we put non-politicians making a (poor) joke on social media into biographical wikipedia pages purely on the point of the joke existing? If it causes some long term damage, it would make sense sure, but a joke that's going to be largely forgotten about within a few weeks, let alone months/years doesn't seem to be of Wikipedia relevance. Be careful about getting caught up in WP:TOOSOON and the media cycle in general. Wikipedia's not a tabloid. Ergzay (talk) 05:33, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

We don't treat non-politicians differently from politicians... We treat public figures differently from non-public figures, both politicians and Musk are public figures so we treat them the same. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:17, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 September 2024

In the Politics sections under Personal views and Twitter Usage change "Musk and Trump spoke for 2 h" to "Musk and Trump spoke for two hours" SomeoneOK (talk) 17:00, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

 Done Hyphenation Expert (talk) 18:35, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Vivian Musk

Vivian is now a public figure. I think it's problematic, from a historian's perspective, to not include her dead name. I think there is a way to respectfully refer to her as previously being known as (redacted). It's an important fact in the life of someone that may one day become far more notable than they are now.

Currently, you have to go back as far as 2012 news sources to even find this information. We shouldn't decide to erase history like this just because it offends someone. It can be tastefully done as a footnote, or something.

Because this is a controversial issue, I am not making any changes to this page. But I think someone should make it happen if consensus is reached that it should. Luxdsg (talk) 18:55, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Luxdsg, your proposal is contrary to long established practice. Please read WP:DEADNAME and read it carefully. Cullen328 (talk) 19:01, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

This habit we have got into of erasing the past is unfortunate but is becoming all pervasive. However, here at least, the MOS rules and this is how it is - until it changes. The City of Londonderry is legally so called but the MOS says that it must be referred to as Derry etc.etc. so as suggested by Cullen328 read the MOS and if you disagree AND have the time and energy see if you can get a consensus for change. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 13:37, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

MV

@Ergzay In retrospect, it was my fault for putting such a stupid edit summary, but I meant that the MV was genuinely useful as an example of Musk’s public persona and that Britannica would be too snobby to link to anything like it. I didn’t put the music video there for fun. Could we discuss the inclusion of content? Bremps... 17:32, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I've never heard of the music video. Is the video mentioned in any source? Ergzay (talk) 17:35, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

We don’t have an article on the song or the music group Bremps... 17:42, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

No I was asking what notability it has as referenced by external sources. If it isn't referenced by anything then it definitely does not deserve inclusion in the article. Ergzay (talk) 17:44, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

In that case no, no external sources have commented on it. Bremps... 18:25, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Then the situation seems clear. Ergzay (talk) 22:35, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Maybe explain what you think this adds to the article? Slatersteven (talk) 17:38, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I think it better conveys his public persona as IRL Tony Stark (not that I necessarily agree with this characterization of him) than the Obama photo. Bremps... 17:41, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

We have more than enough about his being the inspiration for Tony Stark. Slatersteven (talk) 17:43, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I’m still not sure that we should go with the Obama photo, though. It’s arguably detrimental to understanding given his rightward turn in recent years. Bremps... 18:26, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Seperate debate. Slatersteven (talk) 18:28, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

We don't appear to have that at all... We have him being part of the inspiration for the Marvel depiction of Tony Stark, but nothing about Elon Musk being the inspiration for Tony Stark a comic book character which originated in the 1960s. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:55, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Starlink as separate from SpaceX in Musk companies

Starlink is a wholly-owned subsidiary of SpaceX, yet both have full subsections of detail in this BLP article on Musk. Starlink is important, but since it is not a separate Musk company, should probably be handled in the SpaceX section. A full section of coverage in the Musk BLP article seems WP:UNDUE. What do others think on this, as a matter of wiki policy and making a good article? Cheers. N2e (talk) 23:39, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@N2e I completely agree that the Starlink section should be pared down to a paragraph or so and included in the SpaceX section. His views on the Ukraine war should go elsewhere and how Starlink interacted with it should have a single line mention along with a link to the relevant article. That's my opinion anyway. Ergzay (talk) 11:34, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Elon Musk X (fka Twitter) Ownership "Controversial"

"His ownership of Twitter has been controversial because of the layoffs of large numbers of employees, an increase in hate speech, misinformation and disinformation posts on the website, and changes to Twitter Blue verification."

This opinion reads as if written by a former Twitter employee who lost their role with said employer. Some would hold there is no controversy in reducing workforce in a bloated company.

To claim "an increase in hate speech, misinformation and disinformation" demands a citation, otherwise it is mere speculation.

In contrast to the thought of the individual who wrote these initial remarks, one could argue Mr. Musk's ownership of X (fka Twitter) has been welcomed by those who support free speech. d5f61b1c@opayq.com (talk) 20:01, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Citations not required per MOS:LEADCITE as it's a broad WP:DUE summary of the child article Twitter under Elon Musk that is summarised in this article. Being welcomed by those who support free speech is not due by comparison. CNC (talk) 14:49, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Even if it were true, that would still mean some didn't agree with it, thus there was a controversy. Slatersteven (talk) 14:52, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Elon Musk Is Accused of Insider Trading by Investors in Dogecoin Lawsuit

Musk was building up the cryptocurrency Dodge coin to have people make money from the coin and dump it into Tesla to have the stock rise and fund Tesla even more. Musk sold about $124 million of Dodgecoin causing price manipulation. A “deliberate course of carnival barking, market manipulation and insider trading”. This helped many customers of Robinhood and other trading platforms make money from this but also lose a significant amount too when it was supposed to boom in 2021 during the NBC Saturday Night Live event, many people sold at that time causing it to crash significantly and struggle to come back up ever since. Even though he is the richest billionaire in the world he should have had some common sense not to continuously keep promoting the crypto currency and not expect consequences… Elon was facing a class action lawsuit against him for insider trading and manipulation. After a legal victory in a Dogecoin lawsuit, "Elon Musk reaffirmed that Tesla would bring back Dogecoin payments for merchandise. Among others, these key events highlight the strong correlation between Tesla announcements and Dogecoin price movements, largely influenced by Musk’s personal support of the cryptocurrency.

Amezzo27 (talk) 03:07, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 October 2024

Could you please let me edit, i am his biggest fan and i could put a lot of interesting information about him and all his discoveries Pepito. Gigachat (talk) 08:50, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

You need to have extended confirmed status before you can edit this page. That status is granted automatically once your account has existed for at least 30 days and has made at least 500 edits. In the meantime, you can make requests here giving details of exactly what changes you wish to be made. Rosbif73 (talk) 09:59, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Edit requests are for asking us to make edits, so what edit do you wish to make? Slatersteven (talk) 10:05, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 October 2024

In section Public Perception, end of first paragraph, change Ashley to Ashlee. Source: https://www.ashleevance.com/ BrianBirmingham (talk) 15:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

 Done , thanks! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:43, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

"along with other donors"

I don't think OS wrote Musk gave $100 million himself, Horse Eye's Back

it wrote "The dark money group reportedly received over $100 million in funding from billionaire Elon Musk, along with other donors"

so, a total of $100 million from all of them

anyway, I added a different paragraph for this soibangla (talk) 04:27, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

What you removed didn't say that Musk gave $100 million himself, it said "In October 2024, OpenSecrets, a nonprofit organization that tracks and publishes data on campaign finance and lobbying, reported that Musk and other donors had reportedly funneled over $100 million into Building America’s Future, a dark money network backing Donald Trump."[2] Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:28, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

my bad, apologies to Wozal soibangla (talk) 04:43, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

No worries, important to get it right so always best to double check Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:59, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 October 2024 (2)

Can I include his nationalities 2A02:A442:79BA:0:D50C:71A1:9213:D0B4 (talk) 17:54, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 21:34, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 October 2024

I want to make minor update to the article. I basically want to replace "Twitter" with "X(formerly Twitter)" to reflect the platform's current status. Legend.jester (talk) 14:07, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done It's unclear where you want to make this change. Twitter and X are used depending on what it was called at the time. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:30, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Page sorely needs to be updated. Fear of irritating Musk, and the MAGA cult, shouldn't play a role here

With Musk now a full-throated supporter of Trump and his many lies and conspiracy theories, this page should reflect as much in the lead. The lead should now include "rightwing activist" and "conspiracist". He's not much different than Tucker Carlson or even Dinesh D'Souza. And it is well documented and supported by the consensus of reputable sources in the press about Elon's "conspiracist" and "rightwing activism". He isn't hiding it, and is proud of his full-throated support of Trumpism. He even updated his own Twitter page brazenly with a MAGA hat, and says as much. If wikipedia is truly about its mission, then we are failing our readers by not honestly reflecting what is well documented in the news here. If not now, then when? EmmaRoydes (talk) 20:19, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Can you provide some examples of the independent notable sources that describe Musk as such? That would help justify the inclusion. QRep2020 (talk) 06:35, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

This is not a helpful comment, and is polemical. I recommend striking it out. Ca ^{talk to me!} 11:21, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

His involvement in the current campaign should be a separate section, now that he is in total support mode. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:645:C601:6010:99B0:F55C:4E2D:A503 (talk) 05:24, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Drafting an article on Building America's Future

Draft:Building America's Future - anyone with the time or interest, your help would be appreciated! Doug Weller talk 12:40, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Nationality

Every other person on Wiki begins with the statement of the individual’s nationality. Why is this not mentioned in the first line? 2604:3D09:CF75:3E00:B80E:E499:A920:B114 (talk) 14:12, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

See Talk:Elon Musk/FAQ. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:40, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Every immigrant who takes the Oath of Citizenship renounces any allegiance to their former countries. Therefore they cannot claim dual citizenship. The only way to be a dual citizen is by being a U.S citizen FIRST. Therefore Musk cannot be a dual citizen. 76.8.147.120 (talk) 14:37, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

According to whom? Slatersteven (talk) 14:42, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't know the answer to the question but the answer should be somewhere on this page: United_States_nationality_law 173.222.1.184 (talk) 23:18, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

You can renounce allegiance to other countries all you like, but you retain your citizenship in those countries unless and until you meet their requirements for being relieved of it. If they provide for your citizenship to end automatically upon your assumption of citizenship elsewhere, then you're done, but otherwise, no. Largoplazo (talk) 13:03, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Washington Post reference contradicts Stanford drop out claim

The Wikipedia bio for Elon Musk currently says:

"The Washington Post reported that Musk lacked legal authorization to remain and work in the United States after dropping out of Stanford.[57]"

That is not actually what the Washington Post reference [57] says:

"Musk arrived in Palo Alto in 1995 for a graduate degree program at Stanford University but never enrolled in courses, working instead on his start-up."

Not enrolling is not the same as dropping out. The term "dropping out" should be removed from his Wikipedia bio. StanfordMSME (talk) 16:55, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Plenty of reliable sources support the plainly factual statement that Musk dropped out of Stanford, including The Guardian,[3], CNBC[4], The LA Times[5], CNN[6], Fortune[7]. Stonkaments (talk) 22:11, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

These "reliable sources" should be, but are not reliable. In these instances, they do not meet Wikipedia standards.

The Guardian[4]

The Guardian makes the same mistake currently in the Wikipedia bio. Like Wikipedia, The Guardian cites the Washington Post[57], but the Post only reports this:

"Musk arrived in Palo Alto in 1995 for a graduate degree program at Stanford University but never enrolled in courses, working instead on his start-up."

The Washington Post [57] does not say Musk "dropped out". They clearly state he "never enrolled".

A formal correction is in order.

CNBC[5]

Paul Maidment at CNBC repeats Elon Musk's claims without independent verification, which does not meet Wikipedia standards. Maidment writes:

"Musk then headed for Stanford to start a Ph.D. in applied physics but dropped out after two days..."

There has never been any documentation presented to back up this claim. The only available documentation [51], from Stanford's Director of Graduate Admissions, states:

"As per special request from my colleagues in the School of Engineering, I have searched Stanford's admission data base and acknowledge that you applied and were admitted to the graduate program in Material Science Engineering in 1995. Since you did not enroll, Stanford is not able to issue you an official certification document."

Note, the statement [51] says nothing about "PhD" or "applied physics".

A formal correction is in order.

The LA Times[6]

Justin Ray in the LA Times[6] writes:

"While introducing him for a 2016 discussion, former Stanford University President John Hennessy explained that Musk dropped out of Stanford after two days to start a business called Zip2"

In the YouTube video linked to by the LA Times, Hennessy actually says:

"...he arrived at Stanford to pursue a PhD in physics but left after two days"

Hennessy said Musk "left". He did not say Musk "dropped out ".

Ray put words in Hennessy's mouth that were never said, but since Ray didn't actually quote Hennessy, a formal correction isn't technically necessary.

CNN[7]

Catherine E. Shoichet at CNN[7] simply repeats Musk's claim, writing:

"He has said in the past that after leaving Penn he had planned to pursue graduate studies at Stanford, but dropped out to work on founding his first company."

Shoichet even includes a hyperlink to Musk's own tweet claiming he "Dropped out of Stanford Eng/Phys grad school".

Repeating Musk's claims without verification does not meet Wikipedia standards. Also, there is no such thing as Eng/Phys at Stanford.

Again, The only available documentation [51], states that he was admitted to the graduate program in Material Science Engineering, but did not enroll.

Since Shoichet admitted she was just repeating Musk's statements, a formal correction isn't technically necessary.

Fortune[8]

Mahnoor Khan at Fortune[8] writes:

"Among his many outlandish career moves is one that dates back to 1995 when he dropped out of Stanford after only two days at the prestigious institution. After earning two bachelor’s degrees, one of which was from the University of Pennsylvania, Musk entered a Stanford Ph.D. program in physics at the age of 24. Two days later, however, he changed his mind and called it quits."

Like others, Khan repeats Musk's claims without independent verification. This does not meet Wikipedia standards. There is no record of Musk entering a Stanford PhD program in physics.

Again, The only available documentation [51], states that he was admitted to the graduate program in Material Science Engineering, but did not enroll.

Furthermore, Khan's timeline is off, as Musk didn't earn his Bachelor's degrees from Penn until 1997, two years after Musk was admitted to the graduate program in MSE at Stanford.

A formal correction is definitely in order. StanfordMSME (talk) 05:04, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Maybe I'm missing something but what is the difference between dropping out and not enrolling in classes? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Assuming you went to college, you probably applied and were accepted to more than one school, but you didn't drop out from the schools you never attended.

Likewise, if you got a job offer from Company A, but declined in favor of Company B, you could not say you quit from company A, because you were never an employee there.

Elon Musk was never a student in a graduate engineering program at Stanford. Their admissions director acknowledged in writing that he never enrolled. StanfordMSME (talk) 02:22, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

If you were accepted... Admitted... And then did not enroll in classes you dropped out. Your anecdote would work if not for the actual admission part, if he was admitted then he was a student whether or not he enrolled in classes. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:10, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

In the United States if you're accepted into a degree program and then simply don't show up for classes you have dropped out. You don't need to file paperwork that you've dropped out from the school. That's what "dropping out" means. Ergzay (talk) 00:57, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

That is not what dropping out means. I was accepted into four graduate engineering programs. I chose to enroll at Stanford. That does not mean that I dropped out of the other three. StanfordMSME (talk) 02:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Dropping out refers to no longer going for the degree in question. Just going to another school is not dropping out. If you chose to go to none of them, then you'd be dropping out. Ergzay (talk) 02:31, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

When I went to Stanford, I had planned, and had the option, to continue for a PhD, but I decided not to. That does not make me a Stanford PhD dropout.

Likewise, if a high school student applies for and is accepted into a college, but decides the join the Army instead, that person is not a college dropout. StanfordMSME (talk) 03:11, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Accepted =/= admitted... If they were admitted then they are technically a college drop out. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:15, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Dropping out = quitting

You can't quit something you don't start. 68.186.20.131 (talk) 03:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

if you signed the admissions paperwork you started, its the equivalent of signing an employment contract. Think about it this way... Do you need to be enrolled in classes to get a student discount or can you get that after admission? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:49, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

We are quibbling here about the precise definition of an imprecise idiom, which looks to me like a waste of time. Personally, I do not think "dropped out" applies because I think that you need to actually begin a course of study in order to drop out of it. Other editors seem to disagree about what the idiom means, so why not rewrite the content more precisely without using the imprecise idiom? Cullen328 (talk) 03:59, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

That is a proper suggestion, but for the lead at least I think the imprecise idiom is widely used enough to be due. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:03, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I obviously agree with your interpretation of dropping out. That said, I googled "college acceptance vs admittance" and here is the AI Overview:

In the college admissions process, "admitted" and "accepted" are generally used interchangeably to describe when a college offers a student a place in their incoming class. Both terms indicate that the college reviewed the student's application and decided to grant them admission.

While the terms are often used interchangeably, there are some slight differences in usage:

Admitted

This term is sometimes used to refer to the action taken by the college, such as "The college admitted 2,000 students this year".

Accepted

This term is sometimes used more frequently from the applicant's perspective, such as "I was accepted to three colleges".

Once a student is admitted or accepted, they can decide to enroll or wait to hear back from other colleges. It's important to keep track of each college's enrollment deadlines, as failing to accept an offer by the deadline may result in losing the spot in the class. StanfordMSME (talk) 05:18, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

If not enrolling after being admitted/accepted constitutes dropping out, I dropped out of 9 colleges that I never attended, including several that I never even visited. StanfordMSME (talk) 05:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I think analogies are useful here. Consider:

Can someone be a corporate dropout if they've only worked for nonprofits?

I say no. Quitting or dropping out requires actually doing the thing first (intentions don't count). StanfordMSME (talk) 05:55, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

This may possibly be the only time in the history of modern English language usage when the idiom "dropped out" in this specific context has been deployed to make somebody look better. I am easily old enough to remember the silly Turn on, tune in, drop out slogan of the mid-1960s deployed by the Harvard psychologist Timothy Leary. But this meaning we are debating is different and far more closely aligned with mainstream idiomatic English language usage regarding high schools and colleges. Tens of millions of people and maybe far more have said "he dropped out of college" intending a meaning different from "he never even started college". Why not simply avoid the problem by substituting more precise language for the imprecise idiom? The neutral point of view does not require us to parrot the vague idioms that deadline driven journalistic sources sometimes use in a rush. We are perfectly free to, and should, use more precise language as long as we do not misrepresent the core of what the cited sources say. Cullen328 (talk) 05:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not smart enough to understand idioms and stuff, but what I see is "dropped out after two days" in the lead is not supported anywhere, whereas he never enrolled and instead worked as an illegal immigrant is reliably sourced, including according to his brother. I imagine some might prefer to look the other way from that, and that's kinda how hagiography can happen, especially about legends of really rich guys. I hope we don't go that way. soibangla (talk) 06:45, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

The debate over the meaning of dropping out is a distraction from the real issue, which is Wikipedia attributing language to the Washington Post[57] that was not actually used by the Washington Post[57]. The Washington Post reporters do not say Musk dropped out. The only use of that term in [57] is in a quote from a former government lawyer. Wikipedia should make sure that is clearly stated. As a house keeping measure, [55] and [57] are duplicates. StanfordMSME (talk) 13:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Accusations of WP:SYNTH

@Horse Eye's Back Why are you reverting the content? It is not WP:SYNTH. Be precise on what is synthesized and not stated in the sources? Ergzay (talk) 01:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

You can't combine multiple sources to say something which none of them actually say... You can't shoehorn[8] the earlier stories into the recent one like that to make them say something in combination that you think they should say. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:04, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I am not combining multiple sources to say something which none of them actually say. It's directly in the sources. What _specifically_ are you claiming is not in the sources? Ergzay (talk) 01:07, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

There is nothing about the WSJ and Putin in the earlier sources. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:08, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

There is statements about Taiwan and Starlink however. Ergo, by WP:Balance we need to include both points of view. WSJ implies that Starlink is not available in Taiwan because of Putin's request. Bloomberg states Taiwan is not available in Taiwan because of disagreements over ownership percentage. Ergzay (talk) 01:22, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I've read the article, WSJ does not imply that. Bloomberg doesn't actually say that, they say something close but which doesn't actually directly contradict in any way... They don't confirm that SpaceX's concerns were what they said they were. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:28, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to make an edit to the page that has different wording. Let's see if that's more to your appetite. Ergzay (talk) 01:23, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Please propose it here instead rather than edit warring. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:28, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not adding identical content. So there's no edit warring. Proposing content directly in the article is a perfectly fine way to edit and does not and has never constituted edit warring. Edit warring is adding basically identical content repeatedly. Ergzay (talk) 01:34, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

the content has been challenged per BRD, please do not edit war by restoring the content soibangla (talk) 01:37, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

@Soibangla You cannot be engaged in edit warring if you are not performing repeated reverts. I suggest you read WP:EDITWAR. Ergzay (talk) 01:40, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I made the edit, what do you think? The Synthesis issue is gone as the WSJ article was I guess updated. Ergzay (talk) 01:46, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Your edit seems to have inserted SYNTH again. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:49, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

How exactly? The Journal says "Starlink has never secured permission to offer internet service in Taiwan, whose government places restrictions on non-Taiwanese satellite operators. " I'm really getting tired of you just saying "it's SYNTH" and not explaining yourself. What "conclusion" am I making that is not "verifiable from the sources". That's the requirement for WP:SYNTH. Ergzay (talk) 01:55, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

The Journal doesn't talk about the earlier coverage, and note that the quote you just provided doesn't support "however the Journal also reported that Starlink has never secured permission to offer internet service in Taiwan because of Taiwanese government restrictions on non-Taiwanese owners" Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

> The Journal doesn't talk about the earlier coverage

But they DO! That's what that quote is! That is the previous coverage!

And what is wrong with the because? That's how english works, it's called a "clarifying statement". It's not separated by a full stop. It's a comma. Ergzay (talk) 02:00, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

"however the Journal also reported that "Starlink has never secured permission to offer internet service in Taiwan" because of Taiwanese government "restrictions on non-Taiwanese satellite owners""[9] has the same issue... Because doesn't appear to be supported, thats also your fourth or fifth revert. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

As previously explained, reverts are adding back identical content, unedited. No reverts have been taking place.

And I edited my comment but you responded before it went through, so I'll repeat myself. The comma in the original is called a "clarifying statement". It's part of how English works. Ergzay (talk) 02:05, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

That isn't what WP:EDITWAR says. In context I don't think the source is saying "because" in any shape or form, I think your interpretation is wrong. Please don't pander about the english language, its insulting to most. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 02:07, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:EDITWAR says "Wikipedia encourages editors to be bold, but while a potentially controversial change may be made to find out whether it is opposed, another editor may revert it. This may be the beginning of a bold, revert, discuss (BRD) cycle. An edit war only arises if the situation develops into a series of back-and-forth reverts." Bolding mine. We are not doing a series of back and forth reverts. You are repeatedly reverting and I am repeatedly making new and original and different changes. See also: WP:BRD#Bold,_revert,_bold_again Ergzay (talk) 02:13, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

In a previous statement you made you said that WSJ source does not imply that Starlink was blocked because of Putin's request. Now you are saying you think including a quote from the article that says the opposite is also wrong. So what precisely do you think the article says?

And yes I will talk about how the English language works. We are writing in English and a clarifying statement is precisely what is in the article. What purpose do you think that comma means? I honestly want to know. Use as much "grammar pandering" as you like to explain it to me. My major at university was computer engineering, even if I'm a native American English speaker, not English. Ergzay (talk) 02:23, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

You're just flat wrong... "The three-revert rule states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material, on a single page within a 24-hour period" Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:46, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree. The WaPo article isn't making that explanatory inference. If anything, it's stating SpaceX would need to seek permission from Taiwan to do so and implying that SpaceX hasn't yet perhaps because of this favor. QRep2020 (talk) 02:34, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not following what you mean. What do you mean? Let's try to establish common ground here. Yes SpaceX needs to seek permission from Taiwan to operate in Taiwan. But where are you getting any kind of implication that SpaceX has refrained from doing so because of this? THAT would be WP:SYNTH. We already know from previous reporting by Bloomberg that Starlink tried to get permission. Or are you claiming that this new reporting erases that previous reporting? Ergzay (talk) 02:43, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

As Horse Eye's Back put it, "I don't think the source is saying 'because' in any shape or form". I agree - WaPo is not establishing that Starlink "has never secured permission to offer internet service in Taiwan" on account of the government's "restrictions on non-Taiwanese satellite owners". Getting permission is something they would need to do, yes, but it isn't something preclusionary.

If anything, the article suggests Starlink, despite listing it as coming soon, has not secured permission to offer internet service access in Taiwan because of the favor Putin asked. It does so in its presentation of a selection of facts placed in succession, separated into paragraphs to add emphasis. Saying Starlink hasn't gotten the permission is supposed to be telling in the context of the favor and them still listing the access as coming soon.

Regardless if anyone else agrees with my interpretation, the article doesn't explicitly state the permissions are the cause or reason for Starlink never securing the access. That's what in question. QRep2020 (talk) 04:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Firstly we're talking about WSJ, not WaPo right? As to "but it isn't something preclusionary", but Taiwan has said previously that it is preclusionary... Namely they have said directly that they won't give SpaceX an exception to the 51% local ownership, ergo they cannot bring service to the country. Have you read the Bloomberg article that is being talked about?

> "If anything, the article suggests Starlink, despite listing it as coming soon, has not secured permission to offer internet service access in Taiwan because of the favor Putin asked."

Again, HOW is this being read into that. That's not what is being said _at all_. Please fully explain. And even if it WAS, it's in direct conflict with previous sources so both sources need to be used to maintain balance otherwise its NPOV.

I'm trying not to read a lack of good faith into this, but it's getting hard. This appears to be someone trying to jump through hoops to justify their own bias that there cannot be mistakes in a news article. We have direct quotes from many sources saying exactly how SpaceX tried and failed to acquire access to put Starlink in the country. Are you trying to magically make these disappear? I don't understand. Ergzay (talk) 08:35, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

The Bloomberg article doesn't actually appear to say that... Again you appear to be going a step beyond what the source actually says to make it fit your argument. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:35, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. QRep2020 (talk) 18:41, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Am I living in an alternate reality here? The Bloomberg article says exactly that... I feel like I'm being gaslight right now. Seriously. I can only assume bad faith now. Not only are you denying what the WSJ article says, you're denying the even more clear Bloomberg article. All secondary sources from that time period that re-report Bloomberg's article also say similar things. Seriously you need to set away your biases here. Any attempt to push this reality defying original research interpretation and we're going to notice board. Ergzay (talk) 08:40, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I am clearly the one with a bias in regards to Elon Musk and related companies... I am clearly obsessed with this topic, just look at my edit history[10]. As you can see the top ten edited pages are all Musk related and seven out of ten of the top talk pages are Musk related. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:58, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

For the record, I don't even like Elon Musk. (Though I once did in the past.) Ergzay (talk) 01:02, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

The Bloomberg article very clearly states that SpaceX attempted to negotiate with Taiwan, and the dispute over the %51 ownership requirement was the dealbreaker for both sides.

The Taiwanese and SpaceX began exploratory talks about the satellite supply chain in 2019, but in early 2022, the cordial tenor of those talks changed. Space Exploration Technologies Corp., as SpaceX is formally known, and its representatives in Taiwan began urging government officials to change a law that requires any telecommunications joint venture to have local majority ownership of at least 51%, according to two officials who took part in the meetings. That insistence made Taiwan wary, they said.

SpaceX, which owns and operates Starlink, pushed for 100%, arguing Musk wanted to own the company outright because that’s how he does business around the world, the people said, asking not to be identified because the discussions were private. Indeed in China, Tesla Inc.’s most important market outside of the US, the electric carmaker wholly owns its factory in Shanghai, an anomaly in a country where other foreign automakers must have local partners.

The lobbying also came with an ultimatum: Unless Taiwan agreed to change its ownership rules, the island would get no deal at all.

SpaceX didn’t respond to multiple requests for comment over a period of weeks. Wu Tsung-tsong, minister of the island’s National Science and Technology Council, which leads Taiwan’s science, technology and space development, said Taiwan so far doesn’t “plan to amend the rules,” although he added SpaceX would be welcome if there were a mutual compromise."

Bloomber's report and WP:SECONDARY analysis about SpaceX's request is consistent with other sources reporting Tesla's negotiation with China for %100 ownership of Tesla factories built there. Foonix0 (talk) 06:11, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! Yes exactly! Ergzay (talk) 08:48, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with other editors that this is inappropriate SYNTH. The statement "however the Journal also reported that Starlink has never secured permission to offer internet service in Taiwan because of Taiwanese government restrictions on non-Taiwanese owners" misrepresents the claims in the cited source. Stonkaments (talk) 15:21, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

How can it misrepresent the claims of the article when it's directly quoting them and simply abbreviating? If people really have such a problem with the word "because" cutting out a few words, I'll add the comma back in. The reading just gets awkward however. Ergzay (talk) 00:55, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@Ergzay: Three different editors have now reverted your proposed change. Please refrain from further edits until reaching consensus here on the talk page.

You claim in your edit summary that you’re “directly quoting from the article without changing the meaning of the article contents”, but this is untrue; your wording changes the meaning in several key ways. Starting your proposed changes with “however” implies a rebuttal to the previous sentence, a novel interpretation that isn’t present in the original source. And the word “because” implies causation that also isn’t present in the original source.

Furthermore, the fact that the Taiwan government “places restrictions on non-Taiwanese satellite owners” is vague and as written it’s quite unclear as to how it’s relevant to this story. Proper context would probably need to mention the specific local majority ownership restriction in question, Musk’s ultimatum to attempt to get this restriction lifted, etc. But I suspect such details are likely undue weight for this article, and belong in the Starlink article instead. Stonkaments (talk) 02:31, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@Stonkaments Did you look at the change you reverted? There was no "because" in it. I'll come back in a few weeks and add it back in when people have calmed down. That's always what happens with these new stories, people go nuts over them and then some weeks later the proper details get added to the wiki page. It's happened numerous previous times, like for example with the claim being pushed all over the media that Elon Musk had "shut down" Starlink in Crimea. And the "because" was a simplification for readability of what was written in the article. It's called an explanatory statement in English. You put it after a comma. We already have sources that state exactly what I was referring to, like in that Bloomberg story. The only people who want to push alternative explanations are letting their emotions take hold because they don't want to believe that there's inconsistencies in the story. As to the WSJ "non-Taiwanese satellite owners" that's just WSJ author not understanding the difference between a satellite and an ISP. It's very obvious what happened. Ergzay (talk) 10:00, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

• “Did you look at the change you reverted? There was no ‘because’ in it.” Huh? Your first edit had “because” in it (as well as a misleading edit summary claiming no change in meaning from the original source),[11], and your second edit had a misleading edit summary about a comma meaning the same thing as “because”[12], which isn’t true (and also contained an uncivil insult toward other editors not understanding English). I reverted both of them.
• “I'll come back in a few weeks and add it back in when people have calmed down.” That’s not how reaching consensus works. See WP:BRD.
• “The only people who want to push alternative explanations are letting their emotions take hold because they don't want to believe that there's inconsistencies in the story.” I recommend you review WP:ASSUMEGOODFAITH. It appears you’re trying to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and insert your own interpretation of events, which isn’t appropriate for Wikipedia. We need to carefully follow what the sources say, without adding our own interpretation to “state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources” (WP:SYNTH).

Stonkaments (talk) 14:25, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Musk's undergraduate degrees

The article currently reads: "Two years later, he transferred to the University of Pennsylvania, an Ivy League university in Philadelphia, where he earned two degrees: a Bachelor of Arts in physics, and a Bachelor of Science in economics from the university's Wharton School. Although Musk has said that he earned the degrees in 1995, the University of Pennsylvania did not award them until 1997."

The first sentence is misleading, as it doesn't give any indication that Musk left the university in 1995 without completing his degree. We should also include the fact that Musk has misrepresented his physics degree as a Bachelor of Science.[13] Stonkaments (talk) 10:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

How does this updated version sound?

"Two years later, he transferred to the University of Pennsylvania, but left in 1995 without finishing his degree. Two years later, in 1997, Musk was awarded a Bachelor of Arts in physics, and a Bachelor of Science in economics from the university's Wharton School. Musk has misrepresented his studies, claiming he earned the degrees two years earlier (in 1995), and that the physics degree was a Bachelor of Science." Stonkaments (talk) 10:59, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Who says that he got the degrees in 1997? Need a direct citation for that to give a go-ahead. BarntToust 13:57, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

He stated it in a SEC filing in 2002: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/musk-physics-degree/. QRep2020 (talk) 14:03, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Also this CNN article: "University of Pennsylvania spokesman Ron Ozio confirmed to CNN that Musk officially graduated in 1997 with degrees in economics and physics. In Vance’s biography, Musk is quoted stating he didn’t graduate in 1995 due to English and History coursework requirements he hadn’t completed. His degrees, he told Vance, were ultimately granted in 1997 because the requirements had changed." Stonkaments (talk) 18:01, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Alrighty, that's a non-controversial change to make. You should use the CNN article, go ahead. That one. My suggestion is to write "Musk attended courses for a ...something something... degree until 1995 when he dropped out; his completed courses were recognized in 1997 as qualifying for degrees in economics and physics under the provisions of a changed set of course requirements." BarntToust 23:33, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

This is fine, but I'd swap out the "dropped out" terminology as there's no indication of that in the sources. Ergzay (talk) 09:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Leaving Penn without completing degrees is not dropping out, but never enrolling at Stanford is dropping out? Make it make sense. StanfordMSME (talk) 16:13, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

That's a completely misleading rewrite, so absolutely not. It implies his degrees were received without merit. Ergzay (talk) 09:33, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

...degree until 1995 when he ceased taking coursework; his...

Is that better? BarntToust 14:31, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

The problem is, the only source we have about the course requirements changing is Musk's own claims in Vance's biography. It seems better to skip that detail and just document what we know for sure: Musk left in 1995, and Musk said he earned his degrees in 1995, but Penn didn't award the degrees until 1997. How about this? "Two years later, he transferred to the University of Pennsylvania, where he studied until 1995. Although Musk has said that he earned his degrees in 1995, the University of Pennsylvania did not award them until 1997–a Bachelor of Arts in physics and a Bachelor of Science in economics from the university's Wharton School."

RfC: Infobox image

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is a strong preference for Option A. (non-admin closure) —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 14:45, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

---

Which of the images below should appear on the infobox? elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 16:02, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

The following are images that have been used in the last two years. Options D and G are images that have not been used in the infobox and have been added to elicit discussion. The infobox image should not be changed during the duration of this RfC.

• 
  (Option A; 2018)
• 
  (Option B; 2022)
• 
  (Option C; 2022)
• 
  (Option D; 2023)
• 
  (Option E; 2023)
• 
  (Option F; 2024)
• 
  (Option G; 2021)

elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 16:02, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

none of the above. Definitely this one. https://x.com/Inkbox/status/1849467491287703733/photo/1 2600:1700:5240:E50:549D:94AA:51E0:CB3 (talk) 15:09, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

This is not a serious image and it's more than likely not under a free license. He's also wearing a hat. AuroraANovaUma ^-^ (talk) 18:31, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Survey

• Option C or Option A — Recency is not an absolute requirement for infobox images. Option E has an uncomfortable angle and Option F is too low-quality to be used. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 16:02, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

  The angle in Option E is a standard angle for taking photos. You rotate your body and then look at the camera. If you look at advice for full body photos, they generally advise rotating 45 degrees to the camera. Ergzay (talk) 18:03, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option A - Option C looks sort of odd, and E, F are too low quality. Option A is widely used and is a well-known image of Musk. It has the best lighting too. But maybe we could use a bigger, less cropped version of the photo Wcamp9 (talk) 16:20, 7 September 2024 (UTC) File:Elon Musk Royal Society crop.jpg
• Option A is my preference. I was going to switch to that when I edited the article, but I thought it might be challenged. Svampesky (talk) 16:38, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
• Not option B C or D or F , also unsure about G. Either they are poor quality, or are at angles. Slatersteven (talk) 16:45, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

  So Option A? Wcamp9 (talk) 18:39, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

The Alphabet does not go A B C D F. Slatersteven (talk) 14:44, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure he's saying either A or E. AuroraANovaUma ^-^ (talk) 16:44, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option A or Option B - Both have the best lighting and expressions. C has bad lighting, D depicts him sweating and with an unprofessional facial expression, E could be higher resolution, F is too low resolution, and G is especially unprofessional. That said, please use this higher resolution version of option A instead if that's the one you're going to use. (edit: the picture used on this list was changed to the higher resolution version I recommended) AuroraANovaUma ^-^ (talk) 16:52, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

  Option B has pretty bad lighting as the camera was white balancing for the blue background making him look green. Also his facial expressions look off. Ergzay (talk) 18:10, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

• Four of these are basically the same picture, any of these works as a top photo although in general I would lean towards one of the ones where he is in generic business dress rather than branded stuff because this page covers the whole breadth of the subject's experience and accomplishments, those seem like better pictures for SpaceX or Tesla Inc. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:07, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

  And even then, neither of the two are professional images and Option F is low quality. AuroraANovaUma ^-^ (talk) 17:56, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option E — Option A is too old, 6 years old at this point. Option F and Option D make him look bad, additionally Option D has likely copyrighted trademark logos in it. Option B, C, D and F all have him looking away from the camera making them poor options. That remains Option E and Option G as the valid options. Of the two Option G has unkempt hair so I'll go with Option E. Edit: Option F and Option G are both completely out as they are low quality. I forgot to check by clicking on them and they're both full of camera sensor noise so neither is any good. Ergzay (talk) 18:00, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

  Wouldn't the copyrighted logos fall under de minimis? They're not the focal point of the photo; Elon Musk is. AuroraANovaUma ^-^ (talk) 18:03, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, but we're arguing degrees here. An image without copyrighted logos (holding everything else equal) is better than one with copyrighted logos. Ergzay (talk) 18:06, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

  I agree and I wasn't saying the image should be used. The image is very unflattering and you can even see some sweat on his face. AuroraANovaUma ^-^ (talk) 18:10, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

  No thats just not true, in some contexts an imagine with a copyrighted logo (holding everything else equal) is better than one one without. This just isn't one of those contexts. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:52, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

  Only in some cases would an image with trademarks and copyrighted logos be better to use. This would not be one of them, however we're looking for the best image of Elon to use, and Option D ain't it. It's a pretty unflattering image of him. AuroraANovaUma ^-^ (talk) 14:58, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

  I agree that this isn't one of them and we agree on the unsuitability of the logo shirt pics in this context, I'm just pointing out that your generalized statement that holding everything else equal we prefer images without copyrighted logos isn't true. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:32, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

  It's also important to note that a choice of Option A will prompt a lot of editors to try and replace it with newer images given that it's so old. 2018 was two years before covid happened, as a benchmark in people's minds. Ergzay (talk) 18:05, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

  I think that it does not really matter that Option A is old. The image is the most high quality, and I believe that matters more than age. An example is the page for Neil Armstrong, the main image was more than 40 years before his death, and is better compared to the images taken of him later in his life. Wcamp9 (talk) 15:53, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

  That was because the peak of Neil Armstrong's career and what he is most well known for is landing on the moon. This is the same across all pictures of astronauts. Ergzay (talk) 21:08, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

• (invited by the bot) "A" is best. Looks neutral and representative. B & C are bad. "E" is non-typical. The rest are OK. You really should ask everybody to weigh in on every image; otherwise weird things could happen. North8000 (talk) 15:19, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
• ElijahPepe My preference is for Option E. I think we should use one of the photos where he appears prepared for a formal portrait, so not G, F, or D.

Option A is too old, or will soon enough be too old. He looks quite different now than he did then. I agree with the person who said people will keep independently changing it if it is left as Option A.

Option B has him looking away at an odd angle, with branding in the background, and Option C looks strange because of the black suit blending into the black backdrop, and because he is looking away.

Option E does make him look a bit like he's running for political office, but it looks much more like a formal portrait than the others, except for A, and because it is more recent, and he is a living person, it is more accurate and helpful than A. Vsst (talk) 07:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Option E is lower quality than Option A Wcamp9 (talk) 18:40, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, you're right on that. And having now had the chance to view them on desktop, I think A is also the more flattering picture by far. E looked a lot better on mobile than it actually appears at higher resolution/larger size, though I feel the opposite is the case for A.

And at the larger size, what I perceived to be a difference caused by the relative age of the photos is less apparent.

More people will view this photo on mobile than on desktop, but perhaps other phone screens might handle it better than mine does, too.

So I have changed my mind on this. Option A is best.

I do suspect it might be possible to hunt down a higher quality version of E, if we were so motivated, though.

Vsst (talk) 20:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option A IMO has the best quality. Karol739 (talk) 19:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
• Option E Most recent image of him that looks "official" enough. A and C are glazed portraits. QRep2020 (talk) 00:59, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Could you elaborate on what "glazed portraits" means? elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 03:53, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

His eyes appear glazed over in them and the photography resembles what you see in portraiture. Option C is a crisp digital photograph and has less of a stuffy, contrived look to it without being candid. QRep2020 (talk) 17:03, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Option C makes him look bad as he's frowning. Ergzay (talk) 05:26, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Not to mention that it has no contrast AuroraANovaUma ^-^ (talk) 14:05, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option A Has both an adequate camera angle and resolution.Biohistorian15 (talk) 09:51, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
• Option A is fine and then Option E. There's really too many choices presented. These should have been narrowed down before creating a RFC. Nemov (talk) 19:39, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
• Option F as it is the most recent photo and most accurately reflects what the subject looks like at present. TarnishedPath^talk 03:27, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

  Option F is by far the worst option here because it actually does not reflect what the subject looks like. In that image he's bent over with his shirt hanging free which makes him look like he's a doughboy. Ergzay (talk) 05:52, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

  You've not seen recent photos of him? TarnishedPath^talk 03:31, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option E. It is more recent and it is of an acceptable quality. Option A is very old, and Option F is too low quality.Brocade River Poems (She/They) 17:29, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
• Option C or A. I feel like Option E could be misleading as with him standing in front of the American flag, people might assume he was a government official. JSwift49 22:20, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
• Option B with the ranking B > A > D > E > C > G > F, from most to least preferred. I value high resolution and good lighting highly, and Option B looks good in that regard. I don't think the age is very important, as he hasn't changed that much. Paditor (talk) 22:53, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
• Option G. It has him looking into the camera, clearly appears to be a free image, and looks contemporary enough for our purposes. fr33kman 18:06, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
• Option A is the best portrait.--Ortizesp (talk) 12:28, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option G. A good contemporary image of him looking into the camera.Tashmetu (talk) 18:47, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

• Option A. F and G are of relatively poor quality for purposes of a lede image. B and D are needlessly unflattering depictions of him; the former depicts him frowning and looks like he hasn't bathed while his facial expression in the latter makes him look chimp-like. C has a dark background which obscures the outline of his head. While E is a better choice than most of the above mentioned, the way it is framed (particularly with the flag in the background) makes him look like an elected official which he is not; hence my opposition to it. Emiya1980 (talk) 23:38, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
• Option B It is the best quality one that is also recent. A is too old. It doesn't matter that it is at an angle, many portraits on infoboxes don't look straight into the camera.
• Option A then E Highest quality photograph, and one in which is he looking clearly at the camera. He does look particularly different from 2018 to current day so it is still approriate to use. E is slightly lower quality but it still taken at a level angle and he is looking at the camera.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 22:40, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option C, E, or F Those are the best three images, IMO. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 06:37, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option E. A is too old, B is alright, C doesn't have good contrast, D has poor lighting, F and G are a bit blurry. Cortador (talk) 07:50, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
• Option A or C. Yes, the image is old, but the subject still looks the same. It does not impact recognition/identification of subject. These are the only two where Musk looks into the camera and have a non-distracting background. Ca ^{talk to me!} 11:15, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

  I strongly oppose F and G. They look like it was taken with a phone camera(oversaturated) and are low-resolution. I weakly oppose Option B, D, E. They have distracting background and have non-neutral contexts (I agree with Horse Eye's Back's point). Ca ^{talk to me!} 11:20, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

• Option A The best looking "official" style picture with no distractions in the background or on his clothing. Those sort of pics are fine later on but for the main infobox image, we want the best neutral picture we can get and I think A does the job perfectly fine. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 08:20, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

• @Slatersteven, Ergzay, QRep2020, Svampesky, Alexysun, and Wcamp9: Notifying relevant editors. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 16:07, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
• @ElijahPepe FYI, Option D was in fact just added to the page. I was the one who reverted it. Ergzay (talk) 18:18, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
• It feels like there's very little consensus on this. I feel like outside mediation will end up being needed to prune out some of the photos and re-run the discussion. Ergzay (talk) 05:28, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"This is Elon Musk Tesla cofounder and CEO" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect This is Elon Musk Tesla cofounder and CEO has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 November 3 § This is Elon Musk Tesla cofounder and CEO until a consensus is reached. Killarnee (talk) 01:22, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Efficiency only mentioned once? What about DOGE?

In the article the favored word of Musk "efficiency" is mentioned only once. How can that be? That which is now commonly outside of the Wikipedia referred to as DoGE or DOGE seems to have started as "government efficiency commission" suggested by Musk in an August 13, 2024 conversation with Trump on X. Thereafter the idea has evolved to "Department of Government Efficiency" Oct 26, 2024 tweet by Musk. Trump even suggested that Musk would head such an Agency 5 September 2024 BBC. Manorainjan 14:39, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

A. DODGE is just another bitcoin, B. There is no evidence that the "government efficiency commission" started out as a bitcoin. Trump is not yet president, so there is no "Department of Government Efficiency". Slatersteven (talk) 14:44, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I have clearly called DOGE an idea. I did not write or imply it to be an existing, working agency. You are totally barking up the wrong tree here, otherwise called Strawman argument. And it is written DOGE or DoGE not DODGE. So, I really don't know, what You are talking about. What is Your point here and how would Your comment ever contribute to the improvement of the article? Manorainjan 15:41, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

What then do you want us to say, based upon RS? Slatersteven (talk) 15:45, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Mention Elon Musk's radical rightwing agenda and activism in lead

The problems with this article, and many of them involving Trumpism, reminds me of those rare instances when we we don't assume the assumption of good faith.WP:AAGF

Musk's role in shamelessly trying to (re)elect Trump, and all far-right conservatives, using his own resource, time, energy, and even his company Twitter/X (which originally was meant to be an apolitical digital town hall), and that he is completely biased in his radical far-right opinions and information (much of which is misinformation), make his role as a rightwing activist one of the most important (if not important) WP:NOTABLE distinctions about him. And should, thus, be properly put in the first sentence of & in the lead, mentioned as such: "far-rightwing political activist". As an example, Musk has recently confessed on Twitter, and as it is well-documented in the press, that his main reason for existence (i.e.getting human beings to set foot on Mars) is now only possible should Trump be elected insofar as he is personally & politically concerned. As there is no evidence, scientifically-speaking, that such an event would make a difference. It's purely political in nature, as the press has reported.

Musk is now actively pushing debunked election denialism conspiracy theories and misinformation, and has been doing this sort of thing for a while now in the interest of far-right wing politics. So it would be appropriate to mention in the lead his role, in addition to his strong beliefs in outlandish conspiracy theories about us all living in a 'computer simulation', as "a conspiracy theorist" too.

But at least, for the sake of our readers, it is important we finally grow a spine as an editors' community and mention WP:NOTABLE information in the WP:LEAD where it matters what is not only obvious about Musk, but what is well recognized in the consensus by the Press and the world by this point. He's is wearing a "Make America Great Again" hat in his profile pic on Twitter, and campaigning publicly in favor of Trump, using Twitter/X in every way conceivable to elect Trump for personal rightwing reasons, as he has attested publicly. And he plans to become part of Trump's political cabinet, as he publicly declares with Trump's blessing and advocacy.

So he's not only publicly boasting about his professional job now as an extreme "rightwing activist", but he's deliberately NOT any making effort to bury this fact, NOR is he attempting to hide it. So neither should we. EmmaRoydes (talk) 17:49, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Read wp:lede, this is not a major enough part of out article (or his life) to go there. Slatersteven (talk) 17:55, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

You're much too old to be making that mistake... WP:LEAD and on the topic here it is a major part of our article which currently receives more coverage than all of the subject's other activities combined. I don't currently see any argument to exclude based in policy or guideline. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:12, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

his politics (including stuff about voting for Clinton and his spat with Starmer) seem to take up less than 10% of our article. Slatersteven (talk) 18:19, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

And we do mention it, it already gets as much coverage in the lede as it deserves. Slatersteven (talk) 18:20, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

That you keep saying lede and not lead doesn't give me any confidence that you know what you're talking about (the opening two sentences are after all "In Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents. It is located at the beginning of the article, before the table of contents and the first heading. It is not a news-style lead or "lede" paragraph.")... I'm not wedded to the language that EmmaRoydes is offering but I do think we undercover it in the lead (especially how we shoehorn it all into the last paragraph) Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:37, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Odd them that my link also worked, almost as if its a variant spelling and this is just a semantic argument without any real validity policy-wise, shall we go down this route? Slatersteven (talk) 18:43, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

A deprecated variant, please respect consensus and use lead. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:52, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

So deprecated, the link still works as a redirect. So shall we stop this now, or continue? Slatersteven (talk) 18:56, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

All up to you, still waiting for you to comment on the meat of my response to you instead of choosing a weird hill to die on. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:08, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

What not knowing what the policy is, even though I link to it? or the fact it only makes up less than 10% of our article? Or the fact we already mention it in the LEAD? What point have I not addressed? Slatersteven (talk) 19:14, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Nobody is asking for it to make up more than 10% of the lead so thats a red herring... We mention it only at the very end of the lead, which doesn't seem due (we aren't supposed to cram negative information together at the end, we're supposed to work it in) Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:27, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

My point is that is makes up such a small percentage of our article it is, in fact, undue to give it more prominent coverage. But I have had my say, its now down to others. Slatersteven (talk) 19:31, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

It makes up a relatively large percentage of our article (neither SpaceX or Tesla is more than 10% of the article either) and a disproportionate amount of the recent high quality coverage. If thats all you want to say thats fine, but I'm used to your arguments being a lot better. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I tentatively agree, a sentence about Musk's political activism in the first paragraph of the lead is probably due at this point. Though I'm not sure reliable sources support characterizing his activism as "radical" or "far-right"—it's important to use neutral wording and follow what sources say. Alternatively, it may be worth trimming the second and third paragraphs, which seem to have excessive biographical details that would be better suited for later in the article. Stonkaments (talk) 18:36, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@Stonkaments @Horse Eye's Back Strong support.

I concur. So, this is more than WP:NOTABLE for the WP:LEAD, which demands it, so can someone with privileges PLEASE finally state the obvious and honor this request, and implement the change?

It should read:

"Elon Reeve Musk FRS (/ˈiːlɒn/; born June 28, 1971) is a businessman and investor known for his key roles in the space company SpaceX and the automotive company Tesla, Inc., and as an extreme rightwing activist and conspiracy theorist, in addition to Donald Trump's second-largest individual political donor."

If you all want to leave out conspiracy theorist, that is fine. And if the use of "extreme" is too much for your personal tastes, then we can leave that for another day despite it being true on all counts. Same goes for his political donor status, which is notable though, and significant.

But Musk's proudly public role as a "right wing activist" is more than backed by reputable sources, and a consensus in the press from ALL political sides and venues. And consensus-wise it is both WP:IMPLIED, and LONG overdue. Omitting it now is a clear example of WP:CENSORing content. And, no, mere mention of it buried in the lead gives the impression that this is a small matter. Doing so is trying to have it both ways, so we can say we are holding onto journalistic integrity and censor this well-documented reporting to appease the MAGA movement.

To give a brightline here of sorts, this isn't actor Kelsey Grammar, for instance, who has come out as MAGA Trump supporter, but insists on keeping it quiet, private and personal. Musk on the other hand has defiantly and proudly staked his personal reputation and even his existence on a radical rightwing authoritarian takeover of American government, and he isn't ashamed about it. He's also gone all in with the MAGA movement that they will not honor the democratic outcome of the 2024 election should Trump lose, and has made it clear that he will only support Trump's victory as the only reasonable outcome. This is about as radical, politically, as one can get. And it too is well-documented in the press.

So, Musk has made the radical MAGA rightwing agenga his own personal brand, and plans to be essentially the third in line of power if Trump is elected, as the American national budget and bureaucracy czar of sorts tasked with radically eliminating and cutting American government according to extreme rightwing ideology.

the tl;dr version- I like how the OP says, "If Musk is boasting about his job as an extreme "rightwing activist" BOTH publicly and in the press, and HE is NOT hiding it, then neither should we". So let's get this moving along.2601:282:8980:C0F0:8418:A77A:EF1A:5430 (talk) 18:57, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Second. QRep2020 (talk) QRep2020 (talk) 19:17, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Here's one example of mainstream coverage demonstrating that Musk's involvement in the presidential election is highly notable, calling it "unparalleled in modern history". [14][15] Stonkaments (talk) 19:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• I agree with much of what EmmaRoydes’s says. But as this is fairly recent, I’m not sure additional space in the lead is the correct course at this time. Considering the extent of recent actions, including the suit over possible election meddling, a case could be made for adding “political activist” to the first sentence. Additional text in the body makes sense, particularly in how, whatever Twitter is called today, is being used. But practically speaking, hard to imagine we’ll result in a consensus before the election and things may change thereafter. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:06, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Objective3000 "Recent" isn't true, for starters. And is irrelevant here. It is now one of the most important, if not important, WP:NOTABLE distinctions of Musk's personal brand in his own words, and well-documented in the press consensus. And the consensus is already implied, and debate over this is not necessary given that it is WP:DUE by this point. If anything, that is an attempt to delay and WP:GAME the outcome by way of delay, if you personally don't like it.

  Again, as others here have pointed out (and as reflected in ALL reputable sources and the press consensus) Elon Musk is publicly boasting about his existential and professional role/agenda as a proud extreme rightwing activist & major MAGA Trump supporter & operative, and he is NOT hiding it, so neither should we. 2601:282:8980:C0F0:8418:A77A:EF1A:5430 (talk) 19:15, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  I agree, Musk's activism has garnered more attention lately with the election cycle, but it's not altogether recent. See this article by the Atlantic in 2022 calling Musk a "far-right activist", for example. Stonkaments (talk) 22:37, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  I made a bold addition to the lead ("Musk has become active in American politics, promoting conservative right-wing views on X and supporting Donald Trump's campaign in the 2024 US presidential election."), but was reverted. Does anyone have any suggestions for improvement? The revert explanation was "this is already covered in the last paragraph of the lead, and that's way way way too many refs". But consensus here seems to be that it deserves mention in the first paragraph of the lead, and I copied the refs from a similar statement in the lead of Views of Elon Musk, which seemed appropriate. Stonkaments (talk) 23:20, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  I reverted it because, as I said in the edit summary, it's already in the lead. If you want to move it from the last paragraph to the first paragraph I won't object, but it doesn't belong in the lead twice. As for the refs, there shouldn't be any in the lead. GA-RT-22 (talk) 23:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

References

Where is the apology for the anitsemitic theory?

I'm trying to verify the second half of this: "endorsing an antisemitic theory; he has since apologized for the latter". I can't find this statement in the article, which is a violation of WP:LEAD. There are three sources cited but the words "apologize" and "sorry" don't appear in any of them. In fact one of them says "Despite widespread criticism, Musk has not backed off his antisemitic claims" which is kind of the opposite of an apology. I see this was already discussed on the talk page in June but that discussion doesn't answer the question. GA-RT-22 (talk) 20:49, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Never mind, I found it, in the "Accusations of antisemitism" section. Not sure how I missed it before. I still think it's misleading to have three refs in the lead, none of which support the preceding material, and if I get ambitious I'll try to fix that. GA-RT-22 (talk) 21:40, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Mr.Musk needs a new portrait

Mr. Musk needs a new portrait. I am aware of the survey at the top but consider that he has changed tremendously since 2018. Please make a second survey or give him a new portrait all together, suggest Opinion E. Thank you. Sincerely, a random IP User. 2601:483:400:1CD0:4012:42FA:169B:52B8 (talk) 03:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Oligarch?

I would like to suggest that Musk be described as "a business magnate, oligarch, and investor known for his key roles in the space company SpaceX and the automotive company Tesla, Inc."

This more accurately describes his role in the economy, media, and politics, as Musk, the richest person in the world, controls X, spent hundreds of millions in the U.S. election, and has been promised a major regulatory role in the upcoming U.S. administration.

Firecat93 (talk) 17:54, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Does it, I disagree. It seems to be that he may be an oligarch soon, but he is not one yet. And business Magnet has been rejected more than once, as he is not often referred as that (or oligarch). Slatersteven (talk) 18:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

An oligarch is "a very rich business leader with a great deal of political influence." Why wouldn't Musk meet this criteria? Firecat93 (talk) 18:10, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Ask RS, as they need to say he is. Slatersteven (talk) 18:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Who is RS? Firecat93 (talk) 18:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

wp:rs reliable sources. Slatersteven (talk) 18:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

You may want to read MOS:OPENPARABIO, which documents how we describe people in the opening paragraph of a biography. GA-RT-22 (talk) 20:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't see many reliable sources which clearly and unambiguously call him an oligarch so I do not think its appropriate. What might be appropriate now is "known for his key roles in the space company SpaceX and the automotive company Tesla, Inc as well as his support of Donald Trump in the 2024 Election." if you want to highlight his seemingly newfound political superstardom (it does seem due to do so). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:49, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. That's perhaps a better alternative. Firecat93 (talk) 22:53, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I would be opposed to that. His support of Trump isn't part of what makes him notable. GA-RT-22 (talk) 23:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I think you're confusing what someone first became notable for with why they are currently notable. In the last two years the political stuff has gotten as much significant coverage as his involvement with all his companies in that same time period combined, I'm not saying I agree with the relative importance (I tend to think that the media undercovers technology and overcovers politics) but we follow the coverage. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:39, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with Horse Eye's Back. I believe we have reached a consensus. Firecat93 (talk) 04:12, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't see a consensus here. GA-RT-22 (talk) 05:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Let us put it up for a vote. Do you have an argument against including it? It has generated significant media coverage. Musk's election related content has generated billions of views. Firecat93 (talk) 06:27, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

RFC? OK. Slatersteven (talk) 11:17, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, can you please initiate it? Firecat93 (talk) 11:36, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I said OK, why do you need to ask? Slatersteven (talk) 11:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I am unfamiliar with the process. I am relatively new to Wikipedia. Sorry. Firecat93 (talk) 11:41, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I;ll try, but remember I am not you. Slatersteven (talk) 11:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Second. QRep2020 (talk) 07:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 November 2024

Reverse titles of 1997 baccalaureate degrees FROM Bachelor of Arts in Physics and Bachelor of Science in Economics TO Bachelor of Science in Physics and Bachelor of Arts in Economics. 47.45.77.8 (talk) 07:41, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a more complete citation that could be used to verify this? I was unable to verify the current wording despite there being six sources cited. But a few of them say that BA in Physics is correct. GA-RT-22 (talk) 13:55, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

References

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. M.Bitton (talk) 21:36, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 November 2024

Change "Despite both Musk and Errol previously stating that" to "Despite both Elon and Errol previously stating that"

Using the last name for Elon and the first name for his father is unnatural, especially because they have the same last name. 57.132.191.74 (talk) 15:22, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Done Alpacaaviator (talk) 21:41, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 November 2024

I would like to suggest that Musk be described as "a business magnate, oligarch, and investor known for his key roles in the space company SpaceX and the automotive company Tesla, Inc."

This more accurately describes his role in the economy, media, and politics. Firecat93 (talk) 17:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:23, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

oligarch, no. He is not an oligarch. 98.193.60.125 (talk) 01:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposal

An IP suggested adding a new image and removing the current one (2018 isn't yesterday). I would like to take this opportunity and propose to create a new survey; I'm in favour of the following image:

Elon Musk in 2022, Colorado

JacktheBrown (talk) 00:54, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

The previous rfc closed ten days ago. It's too soon for another one. GA-RT-22 (talk) 00:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I am in favor of the 2022 image as well. 2018 was seven years ago, and he looks way different now than he did then. Shoot for the Stars (talk) 05:13, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Business career

business career is too long. it needs an another page and to be trimmed here. Loveforwiki (talk) 15:41, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

That's not a bad idea. I split it off to Draft:Business career of Elon Musk for consideration. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:10, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Great. we can trim it from main page. Loveforwiki (talk) 09:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

DOGE does not exist

Dept of government efficiency does not exist and nobody was appointed to it yet since Trump is not yet President. None of these things are a fact as of today (11/12/24) 2603:7080:7006:67EF:11CA:974:93D3:409E (talk) 06:35, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I think the wording needs to be changed to make it clear that this is an appointment to a yet-to-be-created position. Do we have any reliable sources stating when the department of government efficiency will be created? Presumably Trump cannot officially create this during the transition? Rosbif73 (talk) 10:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

We should not engage in speculation, no leave this out until it becomes a thing. Slatersteven (talk) 10:44, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Republican?

All the sources I can find refer to Musk as a registered independent, not a Republican. CalvinCoolidge228 (talk) 16:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I removed it from the infobox. He's allied himself with Trump, but there's no evidence he has changed his registration to Republican. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I believe Musk has stated publicly that he's aligned with Republicans now (and I'm guessing RSs have reported on it). Surely, since he's unironically stated such a shift, it would override outdated sources? Kcmastrpc (talk) 17:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Amercica has an odd system, but is not his started affiliation not like party membership, he is registredas an independent? Slatersteven (talk) 17:17, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

"Political adviser"

It's frankly too soon to name him as this, but upon the creation of the Department of Government Efficiency, should he be referred to as a political adviser? a political pundit? of a time long enough, Elon Musk has been quite active within politics, and his effect is grand enough. BarntToust 22:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC)