Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates/October 2023
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October 31[edit]
October 31, 2023
(Tuesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
International relations
Law and crime
Sports
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(Posted) RD: Lea Ackermann[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): DF
Credits:
- Updated and nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Highly decorated German "nun for prostitutes" who helped victims of sex tourism and forced prostitution first in Kenia, then in Germany. Late because of vacation, but hopefully not too late. The article was a stub with 6 references ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:24, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Solid article! Schwede66 15:12, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: George W. Owings III[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Southern Maryland News
Credits:
- Updated and nominated by Engineerchange (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Recent death and notable Maryland politician, served in house of delegates and as Secretary of the VA in Maryland. Engineerchange (talk) 22:22, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
RD: Tyler Christopher[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): People
Credits:
- Nominated by Curbon7 (talk · give credit)
- Updated by 2603:7000:D106:DE53:34B6:A49C:4E01:8D4D (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Actor best known for his role in General Hospital. Prose is missing some sources, filmography is entirely unsourced. Curbon7 (talk) 23:22, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Two cn tags, unreferenced filmography and awards section with orange tag. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 23:30, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- The filmography and awards sections are still tagged for lacking sources. Please add more REFs. --PFHLai (talk) 04:15, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Lois Galgay Reckitt[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Press Herald
Credits:
- Nominated by TDKR Chicago 101 (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Article updated and well sourced --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 20:31, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- support article is in great condition. _-_Alsor (talk) 21:03, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support I see zero unsourced statements, and extensive prose. WP:BOLDly marking as ready. The Kip 21:08, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Stephen 23:42, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
RD: Alan J. W. Bell[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian
Credits:
- Nominated by CoatCheck (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: British television show director/producer Last of the Summer Wine, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Death announced this date. CoatCheck (talk) 21:20, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comments: The date of birth is referenced to FreeBMD but also to the BFI. The BFI page does say "not to be confused with the tv director", but from the filmography it's clearly the correct one. From the dates the series listed as "There's a Lot of it about" does seem to be the final series of Spike Milligan's Q but we should probably explain that rather than surprise linking to Q. The article is almost entirely about his work, there are lots of biographical details in the Guardian obituary which could be included. Secretlondon (talk) 17:39, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose The bio is too light on biographical detail. Schwede66 17:18, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
(Closed) 2023 Calgary E. coli outbreak declared over[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Blurb: the E. coli outbreak in Calgary is declared over (Post)
Alternative blurb: after 56 days, the E. coli outbreak in Calgary is declared over
Alternative blurb II: the E. coli outbreak in Calgary is declared over, with 0 attributed deaths
News source(s): Global News
Credits:
- Created and nominated by MicrobiologyMarcus (talk · give credit)
- Oppose no one died, and its the end of the event, not the beginning. It would be like blurbing "the exodus of Armenians from Nagorno-Karabakh is over" or something. JM2023 (talk) 18:54, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose E. Coli outbreaks are quite common. The STEC strains seem quite nasty so I'm not convinced that this is good news; it's one more thing to worry about. As this outbreak is not getting much coverage, I feel we need something more to post this. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:45, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose not a major event. _-_Alsor (talk) 20:25, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per all above. The Kip 20:47, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
October 30[edit]
October 30, 2023
(Monday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
Business and economy
International relations
Law and crime
Politics and elections
Science and technology
Sports
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(Closed) New President of Nauru[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Blurb: In Nauru, David Adeang (pictured) is elected President by Parliament after Russ Kun loses a confidence vote. (Post)
News source(s): PINA, Taipei Times, RNZ
Credits:
- Nominated by Joofjoof (talk · give credit)
- Updated by RoundSquare (talk · give credit)
Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
- Comment - Article needs a map PrecariousWorlds (talk) 09:14, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
WP:BOLDly hatting this ridiculous, disruptive vote and its subsequent discussion. The subject is ITNR, if you’ve got an issue with that ask for comment at Talk:ITN. The Kip 23:28, 1 November 2023 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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- Oppose The election is what is ITN/R, and we posted it a year ago.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:56, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- I think you should reread WP:ITNELECTIONS. There are separate bullet points for the results of general elections and changes in the holder of the executive office. This clearly falls under the latter. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 15:24, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support because this is ITN/R. To quote: "changes in the holder of the office which administer the executive of their respective state/government"--and in Nauru, the president is the executive. This was not posted before, because the 2022 Parliamentary election resulted in Russ Kun being elected president; Adeang's election as president is the outcome of a confidence vote, which resulted in the deposal of the previous president on October 25 and the election of David Adeang on October 30. NorthernFalcon (talk) 15:02, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- We would be posting the same article that we did a year ago. At the very least there should be a new target article. Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:30, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per Andrew Davidson. There is no substantial update to any article. And this is a "country" of 10000 people that is not meaningfully independent from Australia. We don't post elections from Scotland (population 5 million), California (population 39 million), or Uttar Pradesh (population 240 million). And this isn't even a general election, just a government re-shuffle. We shouldn't post this. Walt Yoder (talk) 15:14, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Read WP:ITN/R which the nomination clearly links to. Changes of the chief executive of an independent state (which Nauru is) when not already covered by general election blurbs are ITN/R, and discussion is supposed to focus on quality. JM2023 (talk) 15:46, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- The quality is also awful. David Adeang is an awful article; the section headings are "Background and early career", "Developments in 2007", "Developments in 2008", and "Developments in 2013". The presidential vote is tacked on to last year's elections because it is fairly clearly not important enough for a stand-alone article. And when the policy is wrong, I feel no obligation to claim to agree with it. This should not be posted. Walt Yoder (talk) 15:58, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Nauru is a sovereign UN member state. You say it is not meaningfully independent from Australia, and there is definitely a close relationship, but one of the characteristics of sovereignty is the ability to manage one's relations with foreign countries on one's own terms and this criterion is amply met. For example, Nauru maintains formal diplomatic ties with the ROC and not the PRC (one of very few countries to do so), whereas Australia does the reverse. That's not exactly something that California would do. Anyway, would you object to posting a similar update about Monaco, San Marino, or Liechtenstein? Andorra? Where do you draw the line in terms of population? I think this is a slippery slope. Even the population of Iceland is only 0.16% that of Uttar Pradesh, but I hardly think it is insignificant on the global stage, so this numerical comparison seems to be a poor metric. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 16:26, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Using Uttar Pradesh as a cutoff would mean we would only blurb elections and changes of government for Indonesia, the United States, China, and India. JM2023 (talk) 18:50, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Read WP:ITN/R which the nomination clearly links to. Changes of the chief executive of an independent state (which Nauru is) when not already covered by general election blurbs are ITN/R, and discussion is supposed to focus on quality. JM2023 (talk) 15:46, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support NorthernFalcon's comment above is in line with the accepted practice. FWIW, the president is both head of state and head of government in Nauru, and Nauru is a UN member state despite its close relationship with Australia, thus appearing on List of current heads of state and government. There is no rule about ignoring ITN/R for small countries, and given that we have already posted Nauru government updates in the past I see no reason to stop now. There is only a paragraph about this event in the article, which is probably the most valid objection brought up so far, but I think it's minimally sufficient. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 15:24, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- In terms of quality, the main thing I consider to be lacking are the political reasons for the vote of no confidence and election of a new president. Instead of just stating that the votes happened as bare facts, we should provide context, if any is publicly available. The best source I've been able to find is this, but even that just leaves the reasoning at "domestic issues". Can anyone find something more specific? 98.170.164.88 (talk) 16:26, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose solely on quality as Adeang's article is missing considerable citations. The Kip 20:52, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support in principle The president of Nauru administers the executive so this is ITN/R. We should not discriminate between states based on size, no matter if they are as small as Monaco or as large as the United States. Curbon7 (talk) 21:32, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose solely on quality - While this is ITN/R (as the president of Nauru is the administrator of the country's executive), the quality of the new president's article is unfortunately a non-starter for me. estar8806 (talk) ★ 22:29, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Admins willing to post ITN: I believe that this nomination is now stale as it's older than the oldest item currently on ITN. Can it be closed at this point? BangJan1999 13:40, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- The lead of the target article needs updating as the new president is not mentioned, I.e. this isn’t quite ready. Schwede66 16:06, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Frank Howard[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): WaPo
Credits:
- Updated and nominated by Muboshgu (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Nohomersryan (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Article needs work – Muboshgu (talk) 21:13, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose, the majority of this article is unsourced. Suonii180 (talk) 00:29, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose RIP Hondo, but the article is in dreadful shape ref-wise. The Kip 21:06, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Still working on it, this one is taking some time. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:58, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Suonii180 and The Kip: I believe everything is now sourced. Please re-review. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:44, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Muboshgu: A few of the stats in the lead are not in the body (or need citation in lead). —Bagumba (talk) 16:31, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- I rewrote that part of the lead. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:54, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Muboshgu: A few of the stats in the lead are not in the body (or need citation in lead). —Bagumba (talk) 16:31, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Suonii180 and The Kip: I believe everything is now sourced. Please re-review. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:44, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support seems ok to me. Ready to go. _-_Alsor (talk) 21:03, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Stephen 22:21, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
RD: Laiq Zada Laiq[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Khyber News
Credits:
- Updated and nominated by Ainty Painty (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Ainty Painty (talk) 16:42, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Weak Oppose. The article is sourced, but it could be expanded more. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 14:57, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support -- Well sourced and I don't mind the lack of detailed prose. Sincerely, Novo Tape (She/Her)My Talk Page 20:29, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- With only 233 words of prose, this wikibio is somewhat stubby. Anything else to write about? Perhaps description of his "more than 500 radio plays, 12 TV plays, 120 stories, and 36 books"? One would expect a (referenced) selected bibliography of his more famous/popular plays/books to be included in the wikibio. --PFHLai (talk) 10:38, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Stub at only 1398B of readable prose.—Bagumba (talk) 14:10, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Still a stub. Schwede66 15:02, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
October 29[edit]
October 29, 2023
(Sunday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
Disasters and incidents
Law and crime
Politics and elections
|
RD: Robert Brustein[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.washingtonpost.com/obituaries/2023/10/31/robert-brustein-dead-theater/ https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/29/theater/robert-brustein-dead.html
Credits:
- Updated by Kelisi (talk · give credit) and Sunshineisles2 (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: American theatrical critic, producer, playwright, writer, and educator. National Medal of Arts recipient in 2010. 65.94.213.53 (talk) 13:28, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: Several areas need more citations. SpencerT•C 02:18, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
RD: Ado Ibrahim[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.channelstv.com/2023/10/29/ohinoyi-of-ebiraland-ado-ibrahim-dies-at-95/ https://www.thecable.ng/just-in-ado-ibrahim-ohinoyi-of-ebiraland-dies-aged-94
Credits:
- Updated by Shoerack (talk · give credit) and Jkaharper (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Ohinoyi of Ebiraland since 1997. 65.94.213.53 (talk) 13:28, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: Article could use a little more information about his role as ruler, in addition to his "friction with state government". SpencerT•C 02:59, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
(Closed) 2023 Kerala bombing[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Blurb: At least 3 people are killed in a bombing during a Jehovah's Witnesses' prayer meeting in Kalamassery, India. (Post)
News source(s): BBC Deutsche Welle
Credits:
- Created and nominated by Pirate of the High Seas (talk · give credit)
Article updated
- Strong Oppose & Speedy close - Article is currently going through AfD (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2023 Kerala bombing.) estar8806 (talk) ★ 03:20, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
(Closed) 2023 Andhra Pradesh train collision[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Blurb: At least 14 people are killed in a train collision in Andhra Pradesh, India. (Post)
News source(s): The Hindu BBC
Credits:
- Updated and nominated by Pirate of the High Seas (talk · give credit)
Article updated
- Oppose It seems train crashes in India are quite common. This is like the third or fourth this year? Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:50, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. While it is tragic, I have to oppose this as these kinds of accidents are quite common in India. Comparing it to the 2023 Odisha train collision, which was posted here, that accident killed 296 people. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 14:47, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per above. Tragic, but unfortunately not entirely out of the ordinary for India nowadays. The Kip 16:54, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose now that others are saying what I was thinking. JM2023 (talk) 17:39, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - 14 people meets the threshold for posting, in my opinion. --RockstoneSend me a message! 00:34, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- We have no death "threshold". – Muboshgu (talk) 00:52, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Article is quite thin. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:52, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose There have been a few other ones of similar scale this year and we have had consensus not to post. Schwinnspeed (talk) 01:36, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose - good faith nom, but it seems tragedies like these are relatively common occurrence. The death count here is relatively low, and I don't see any indications that this could have lasting long-term significance. --estar8806 (talk) ★ 02:16, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) 2023 World Rally Championship[edit]
Blurb: In rallying, Kalle Rovanperä (pictured) and Jonne Halttunen win the World Rally Championship. (Post)
News source(s): Autosport, Daily Nation
Credits:
- Nominated by Unnamelessness (talk · give credit)
Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: A consenus regarding the sport is notable was formed in May, so I don't see any notability issue of the sport. Quality of the article should be the point to focus. Unnamelessness (talk) 12:52, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support. Well detailed, structured and sourced. I would like to see the champions more prominently pronounced in the opening sentences, but this will be easier to write in past tense at completion of the season. However, the newsworthiness of the proposed blurb will have passed by this point. Rally Wonk (talk) 14:12, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support as it's listed in ITN/R and it's a good article. JM2023 (talk) 18:13, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment I think "In motor sport" would be a better intro than "In rallying", more accessible, but otherwise good to go. — Amakuru (talk) 22:52, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
Oppose I don't see a sourced update. I believe I see an update of the win in the lead, but it's unsourced.– Muboshgu (talk) 23:01, 29 October 2023 (UTC)- It's referenced in the closing rounds section. Stephen 23:21, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- It's not a lot, but I'll strike my oppose. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:23, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- It's referenced in the closing rounds section. Stephen 23:21, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Stephen 23:25, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Image above comes from a CC-licensed YouTube video which is basically Rovanperä on an interview stream. Is there anyway we can scan that for more flattering/less "weird" shot of him? --Masem (t) 23:29, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- I think he looks fine, but I haven't seen any other images of him. JM2023 (talk) 23:39, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- I'm just saying you have a long CC video half filled with him speaking to the camera. I scanned it quickly and didn't see anything super great but this image at size looks awkward. Masem (t) 00:07, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- I think he looks fine, but I haven't seen any other images of him. JM2023 (talk) 23:39, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support for the blurb, with perhaphs omitting co-driver Jonne Halttunen at this point (classified as a Start article). 2002:5632:44C4:0:0:0:5632:44C4 (talk) 03:58, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Non-bolded articles in the blurb don't have to conform to thr same quality standards as the main bolded article, so there's no issue with including Jonne Halttunen, and since they were seemingly an intergral part of the winning team, I think we definitely should retain them. — Amakuru (talk) 06:20, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment - I'm kind of surprise there's no MOS entry for portraits or pictures of people, because I find that the image is a bit unflattering and not what I would use. We tend to give other imaged figures on ITN/C very good treatment in terms of posting suitable portrait photographs. We ought to do the same here. Duly signed, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 16:07, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose the image because it's a poor quality screenshot of a video and not very flattering to the subject. Edge3 (talk) 19:07, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Keep image - The current image is not the most flattering, but it isn't the worst here on the pedia or even on ITN. We have a policy on image copyright that is why we're forced to use the image, the image that might I add is in both articles and thus will still be seen by a lot of viewers.
- Side note; I'm not sure why on the mainpage, the cart if often put in front of the horse, where people will complain about how terrible it is for the lead image to be "promotional" because someone athlete was wearing a Nike hat or a jacket with a company's name on it, or get mad at a DYK or TFA for supposedly being inappropriate (such as the Lisa Novak TFA, because apparently the son of her lover, whose not even related to her or even mentioned in her article, might get bullied if it's on Wikipedia for one day[citation needed]?). Whenever I see that, my response is "that's how the article is, and your complaints should really be directed towards said article as well." — Knightoftheswords 00:52, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- No opinion - on Andrew's proposed image change. — Knightoftheswords 00:06, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- the discussion for this image is now at WP:ERRORS JM2023 (talk) 02:50, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/Kalle_Rovanper%C3%A4_Rally_Finland_2023_Rannankyl%C3%A4.jpg/150px-Kalle_Rovanper%C3%A4_Rally_Finland_2023_Rannankyl%C3%A4.jpg)
- Better image The current mugshot image is inappropriate as it doesn't show the actual sport. As this is a motorsport, it would be best to show a picture of the winning car. The image (right) is from one of the 2023 events, seems a reasonable action picture and helps explain the nature of rallying. Andrew🐉(talk) 21:37, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Andrew image per Andrew Aaron Liu (talk) 14:17, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- I think this is a debate for WP:ERRORS? Ed [talk] [OMT] 14:46, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- I’ve put this in there now. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:14, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- I think this is a debate for WP:ERRORS? Ed [talk] [OMT] 14:46, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Andrew image per Andrew Aaron Liu (talk) 14:17, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- I agree that this image is much better. Edge3 (talk) 17:00, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) Kostenko mine disaster[edit]
Blurb: In Kazakhstan, a day of mourning is declared following the deaths of 33, injury of 20, and disappearance of 13 following a a fire at a ArcelorMittal Temirtau operated mine in the Qarağandy Region. (Post)
Alternative blurb: In Kazakhstan, after a fire at a mine in the Qarağandy Region that resulted in 33 deaths, 20 injuries, and 13 missing people, President Kassym-Jomart Tokayev (pictured) orders the termination of investment into steel giant ArcelorMittal Temirtau, the company that operated the mine.
Alternative blurb II: A mine fire kills 42 people in the Qarağandy Region, Kazakhstan.
News source(s): ABC - France24 - BBC
Credits:
- Nominated by Knightoftheswords281 (talk · give credit)
- Created by Fixer88 (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Graeme Bartlett (talk · give credit)
Nominator's comments: A fire occured at a mine in Kazakhstan, resulting in 33 deaths, 20 injures, and over a dozen disappearances. The Kazakh government has terminated investment into the owners of the mine, ArcelorMittal Temirtau, having already been in the process of nationalizing it, and has declared a day of mourning. This is a story that will likely draw people in via interest, even if it hasn't been receiving front page coverage, and will also emphasize our dynamism (thus meeting two of the WP:ITNPURPOSEs. The article needs to be expanded however. — Knightoftheswords 04:55, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment I don't like either of the blurbs, way too wordy, the day of mourning and end of investment into the company are not important enough to be in the blurb. And do we really need a photo of the country's president for a blurb about a mine fire? No. A simple A fire at a mine causes 33 deaths, 20 injuries, and 13 missing in Qarağandy Region, Kazakhstan would suffice. JM2023 (talk) 06:12, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- "termination of investment" means that the government is nationilising the business. I think a summary can be more compact, sticking to the headline. JM2023's blurb is good. All I did was try to fix it up. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 07:22, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Altblurb II sufficient article and sufficient significance JM2023 (talk) 19:19, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
Comment The accident section needs some expansion, currently it's just two-sentence long despite being central to the article.Brandmeistertalk 12:23, 29 October 2023 (UTC)- Support now, sufficiently expanded. Brandmeistertalk 18:08, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Which blurb? JM2023 (talk) 18:14, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Altblurb II as less verbose. While the aftermath is noteworthy, it could be left for the article. Brandmeistertalk 18:57, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Which blurb? JM2023 (talk) 18:14, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support now, sufficiently expanded. Brandmeistertalk 18:08, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment We do not use ITNPURPOSE to judge whether to post or not, we use ITNCRIT. Not saying this shouldn't be posted, but using ITNPURPOSE should not be used to justify inclusion. Masem (t) 14:11, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- WP:ITNCRIT is essentially so vague as to mean virtually nothing, henceforth why everyone and their mom here on ITN has their own independent blurb criteria. I don't see what's wrong with forming one based around the actual stated goals and mission that we purport to follow. — Knightoftheswords 15:21, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support ALT2 as the article’s been sufficiently expanded. First two blurbs are too wordy/full of unnecessary info. The Kip 18:37, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Altblurb II It's more to the point and focuses on the actual disaster. Article looks fine. ❤HistoryTheorist❤ 19:10, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- It's been almost 24 hours and there's no opposition, can an admin post it? JM2023 (talk) 01:58, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Admins willing to post ITN: The Kip 03:12, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- We are in no rush to post things (particularly as this is actually older by at least a day), but I have marked it ready as I do not see any glaring issues on the article now. --Masem (t) 04:04, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted — Amakuru (talk) 06:32, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
October 28[edit]
October 28, 2023
(Saturday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
Business and economy
Disasters and accidents
Health and environment
International relations
Politics and elections
Sports
|
(Closed) 2023 North Caucasian anti-Jewish unrest[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Blurb: Antisemitic rioters storm Uytash Airport (pictured) in Russia's North Caucasus region. (Post)
News source(s): ABC News, CBS News
Credits:
- Nominated by CJ-Moki (talk · give credit)
- Created by PLATEL (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Dunutubble (talk · give credit)
- Oppose Part of the ongoing. Otherwise, we'd also want to post the massive arrests from NYC's Union Station yesterday, etc Masem (t) 04:02, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Can you explain to me how and where it is covered in the ongoing article? Not a single mention as far as i can tell. And probably not due to be mentioned either. So, how is it part of the ongoing article? 85.16.40.89 (talk) 04:49, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Seconding this. CJ-Moki (talk) 05:01, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- It's a reaction to that event. There's a bunch of protests supporting both sides and reactions to those protests all over the world, this isn't anything special. AryKun (talk) 06:59, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- It's the most-read story on the Guardian right now; not that this implies it rises to the level of a blurb (maybe if there were casualties), just that it may be seen to be slightly more significant than the usual everyday antisemitic rallies. JM2023 (talk) 07:12, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- I didn't claim it was special. And obviously they are connected. Just that it isn't covered by the ongoing article and one would not find any information about it in the article. If this doesn't rise to inclusion on its own notability is one thing and alright. To say it shouldn't be included because it is connected to an event in 'ongoing' is not, in my opinion. Especially if the event in question is barely, if at all, due in the linked article. 85.16.40.89 (talk) 07:30, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- As the template shows, we have literally hundreds of articles related to the war now. The single article we link to from ITN can't possible cover all of those aspects, and this event on its own is not really notable enough to blurb. AryKun (talk) 07:36, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- We are not talking about hundreds of articles though. We are talking about this one article. And more specifically the rationale for the vote. Had Masem said 'not notable enough', little to nothing to argue about. But they didn't 85.16.40.89 (talk) 07:44, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- The specific protests that happened in North Caucasus (that is, citizens there on a witch hunt for jewish people due to the war) is definitely notable on its own, but its also one of dozens of citizen protests, that have happened within the last two weeks. As the conflict articles links to all these protests, we don't necessarily to link to a specific one. Masem (t) 12:12, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- We are not talking about hundreds of articles though. We are talking about this one article. And more specifically the rationale for the vote. Had Masem said 'not notable enough', little to nothing to argue about. But they didn't 85.16.40.89 (talk) 07:44, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- As the template shows, we have literally hundreds of articles related to the war now. The single article we link to from ITN can't possible cover all of those aspects, and this event on its own is not really notable enough to blurb. AryKun (talk) 07:36, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Can you explain to me how and where it is covered in the ongoing article? Not a single mention as far as i can tell. And probably not due to be mentioned either. So, how is it part of the ongoing article? 85.16.40.89 (talk) 04:49, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support; I disagree with Masem that this is part of the ongoing war. While the spark was the current war, it goes deeper than this; it is motivated by antisemitism, not opposition to the current war.
- The event has also received very widespread coverage, and is more than significant enough to warrant inclusion on the main page. BilledMammal (talk) 12:18, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per Masem. There have been many similar protests in response to the ongoing war which are properly classified as anti-semitic (see Antisemitism during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war), so there's no need to single this one out. It's generally covered by the ongoing item.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 13:10, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose - Part of an overall global anti-semitic trend, which is directly linked to the ongoing conflict. There's not really any basis to post. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 14:36, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per Masem - it is one specific large protest/riot in a global wave of such protests, not notable enough to be blurbed Unknown-Tree (talk) 15:41, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose terrifying, regrettable and notorious, but related to an event that is posted on ongoing. _-_Alsor (talk) 19:04, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Nobody died and the republic and federal authorities are condemning this, rather than stirring it further. If Putin was calling for or explicitly aiding pogroms, that would be postable. There is widespread anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim sentiment around the world but none of it from what I have seen has been remotely as dangerous as what is actually going on in the war, so the war is the headline, not this. Unknown Temptation (talk) 19:06, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Horrifying, but with (thankfully) no deaths and no large-scale damage, as well as no state support, this doesn’t rise to the level of a blurb. The Kip 19:37, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Adam Johnson[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC, Guardian AP, CNN ESPN, Sportsnet
Credits:
- Updated by J 1982 (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: American professional ice hockey player fatally injured in a match in the UK. 65.94.213.53 (talk) 12:36, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- I've just thrown in a few {cn} tags. If he was an All-Star in USHL, this should be mentioned in the prose, too. --PFHLai (talk) 13:32, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Horribly tragic and freak accident. Article appear to be in decent shape and reasonably well referenced. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:19, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support: Article looks fine. ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 18:28, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted. --PFHLai (talk) 19:02, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted to RD) Matthew Perry[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): People
Credits:
- Nominated by Mooonswimmer (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
- May I please request people to focus on the quality issues rather than getting into a flame war about you know what just this once? BangJan1999 00:44, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, the article is a loooong way away from even an RD posting. Unsourced filmography. Masem (t) 00:51, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support: His page is on par with many 'recent deaths' that have been approved previously. His fame will certainly drive many people to this page and many will be fixing it up to finalize his career. The current state is already good enough and will only likely get better. There is no reasonable reason to oppose posting this, especially given that he's a very famous person. I never watched Friends but I can attest to its influence and his part in it. This is a no-brainer. Zombie Philosopher (talk) 01:33, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- No, we have not ever posted a bio in this bad shape with exception of those that are pulled. Masem (t) 01:47, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- There have been thousands posted. There is absolutely zero way for you to back up that statement. It is incredibly unequivocal despite the sheer magnitude of examples that you are basing it on. As such, I think it's an empty statement based on a haphazard generalization. I disagree, but our anecdotes shouldn't determine if it gets posted. Instead we should base it on its own merits per agreed upon standards. Zombie Philosopher (talk) 08:10, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Please add more REFs to the "Acting credits" section. -- PFHLai (talk) 08:19, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- There have been thousands posted. There is absolutely zero way for you to back up that statement. It is incredibly unequivocal despite the sheer magnitude of examples that you are basing it on. As such, I think it's an empty statement based on a haphazard generalization. I disagree, but our anecdotes shouldn't determine if it gets posted. Instead we should base it on its own merits per agreed upon standards. Zombie Philosopher (talk) 08:10, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD
. RD candidates need to meet the minimum standard of quality explained in WP:ITNQUALITY before posting, in part because recently-deceased people still fall under WP:BLP and in part because it is going up on the Main Page. Curbon7 (talk) 01:50, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- No, we have not ever posted a bio in this bad shape with exception of those that are pulled. Masem (t) 01:47, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait needs to be of a higher standard per above. Given the ridiculously high volume of edits, it will be there soon if it isn't already. And please no one start asking "should we blurb this?" or say "support blurb" because there is no way this 90s American sitcom star is exceptional enough. JM2023 (talk) 02:37, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Say what you want about Matthew Perry's death, but Friends is not a '90s American sitcom. It's been syndicated around the world enough times over the decades to go down in history as the Muhammad Ali of its kind. Boston Common, now that's a mere blast from NBC past. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:53, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oh Inedible... Friends is world culture at this point, absolutely. I'm heartbroken to heat these news. A blurb would not be a bad thing for Batman Perry. --Ouro (blah blah) 05:10, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- I don't see enough yet to the story for a blurb, though there's a robbery-homicide investigation in the citation that the update doesn't relay. Also condolences from the Prime Minister of Canada. The latter don't impress me much, but kind words from certain levels of government have swayed others here, historically. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:34, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- To me it would merit a blurb even if the PM of Canada didn't say a word (but they were acquaintances privatly so it's nice he did), it stands on its own. It's sudden and unexpected. --Ouro (blah blah) 05:51, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- They went to school together and Perry's mother was Trudeau's father's press secretary. It's not so much condolences from a head of government as it is condolences from an aquaintance. Trudeau also personally begged Taylor Swift to come to Canada when she left it out of her world tour but we didn't blurb that. JM2023 (talk) 05:52, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Taylor Swift gets enough promotion here in the Featured Articles and Did You Know? And if it was a dead politician getting the nod from a former classmate, you know others would weigh it differently. Anyway, as I said, it's the potential robbery-homicide that's got me leaning now. Sudden death only goes so far, narratively, if it just leads to the usual mainstream North American arrangements. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:00, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
And if it was a dead politician getting the nod from a former classmate, you know others would weigh it differently
could you explain this line? I don't understand it. JM2023 (talk) 06:08, 29 October 2023 (UTC)- It seems tributes are enough for international politicians to get blurbs (or blurb votes). A few other kinds of celebrities, too, but definitely global politicians. Anyway, it's not important to us, just others. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:14, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Taylor Swift gets enough promotion here in the Featured Articles and Did You Know? And if it was a dead politician getting the nod from a former classmate, you know others would weigh it differently. Anyway, as I said, it's the potential robbery-homicide that's got me leaning now. Sudden death only goes so far, narratively, if it just leads to the usual mainstream North American arrangements. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:00, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Death blurbs are not honours bestowed upon the beloved dead, they're supposed to be exceptional. Do people really think a 90s American sitcom actor's death needs a blurb? Tragic for loved ones, not exeptional for the world. JM2023 (talk) 05:55, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- This is called In the news section.
- This story will be in the news for days, if not weeks. Kirill C1 (talk) 09:24, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Looks like WP:CRYSTAL to me. JM2023 (talk) 10:21, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- There is more than one criterion for a death blurb. This would come under the "death is the main story" criterion rather than "major figures" which I think is what you are referring to. Pawnkingthree (talk) 09:37, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- I don't really see this as a major story either, so I didn't even mention it. Unexpected but not world-changing. JM2023 (talk) 10:17, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- This is a front page story.
- World changing isn't requirement for a blurb, it should be just in world news. Kirill C1 (talk) 10:29, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- We've long determined that for deaths, simply being reported worldwide is not sufficient for a blurb. There has to be something far more, either the untimely nature of the death or that the person was a significant person in the world. Neither apply here. Masem (t) 14:13, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- It is untimely death.
- Worlwide known multimillion are dies at such young age.
- Of course it is untimely. Kirill C1 (talk) 15:38, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- 54 is not "such a young age". JM2023 (talk) 19:54, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Maybe not, but death for a US-American white male of that age is untimely. (I'm 53, so a bit biased here, perhaps ;-) ) Funcrunch (talk) 20:53, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- 54 is not "such a young age". JM2023 (talk) 19:54, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- We've long determined that for deaths, simply being reported worldwide is not sufficient for a blurb. There has to be something far more, either the untimely nature of the death or that the person was a significant person in the world. Neither apply here. Masem (t) 14:13, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- I don't really see this as a major story either, so I didn't even mention it. Unexpected but not world-changing. JM2023 (talk) 10:17, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- I don't see enough yet to the story for a blurb, though there's a robbery-homicide investigation in the citation that the update doesn't relay. Also condolences from the Prime Minister of Canada. The latter don't impress me much, but kind words from certain levels of government have swayed others here, historically. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:34, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oh Inedible... Friends is world culture at this point, absolutely. I'm heartbroken to heat these news. A blurb would not be a bad thing for Batman Perry. --Ouro (blah blah) 05:10, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Say what you want about Matthew Perry's death, but Friends is not a '90s American sitcom. It's been syndicated around the world enough times over the decades to go down in history as the Muhammad Ali of its kind. Boston Common, now that's a mere blast from NBC past. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:53, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment What is the reason of death here? Gotitbro (talk) 03:49, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- If its an RD, we don't need the reason of death, just confirmation of death. Masem (t) 03:57, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- According to the article, "an apparent drowning in a hot tub at his Los Angeles home". 98.170.164.88 (talk) 04:54, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wikipedia seems to have invented the "apparent drowning" part. I removed it. It was details like these that got Whitney Houston reposted back when they mattered. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:19, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- "Apparent drowning" was reported in TMZ. JM2023 (talk) 05:56, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Added! InedibleHulk (talk) 06:10, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- "Apparent drowning" was reported in TMZ. JM2023 (talk) 05:56, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wikipedia seems to have invented the "apparent drowning" part. I removed it. It was details like these that got Whitney Houston reposted back when they mattered. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:19, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Blurb The death seems to be the story here as it was untimely. An autopsy is likely but it's not clear how long this will take. Andrew🐉(talk) 07:06, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- He had not had any major acting role for several years and basically recovering from his drug addiction period. Nowhere close to untimely, compared to Kobe Bryant's death. Masem (t) 12:25, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- To be fair, Kobe Bryant had been retired for almost four years when he died. Yes, Kobe had been working on other projects, but so was Matthew Perry with his best-selling memoir last year. I do think Kobe Bryant was a bigger figure in relation to his peers. Zagalejo (talk) 14:04, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- But he had roles on TV and was on Friends reunion special, which was a major event. Kirill C1 (talk) 14:07, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- I had to look up Kobe Bryant to understand who he was. Turns out he was a former basketball player who died in a helicopter crash. Not seeing the connection. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:25, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- the connection is that both are said by editors here to be "unexpected/untimely celebrity deaths". JM2023 (talk) 19:40, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- I see. Bryant's death was posted as a blurb: "American former basketball player Kobe Bryant and four others die in a helicopter crash near Calabasas, California." Was this a problem? Andrew🐉(talk) 20:05, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Long before my time, but I wouldn't have supported it on the basis of "unexpected celebrity death", I only could have possibly supported it on the basis of "helicopter crash kills five people" but it probably wouldn't have even been proposed without the unexpected celebrity death. I would consider myself one of the harshest hardliners here in terms of death blurbs and I've repeatedly stated I wouldn't even blurb Jimmy Carter. JM2023 (talk) 20:14, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- There's a bit of a difference between Bryant (one of the most famous basketball players of all time) and Perry (famous actor, but nowhere near the top of his field). Black Kite (talk) 20:25, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- I see. Bryant's death was posted as a blurb: "American former basketball player Kobe Bryant and four others die in a helicopter crash near Calabasas, California." Was this a problem? Andrew🐉(talk) 20:05, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- the connection is that both are said by editors here to be "unexpected/untimely celebrity deaths". JM2023 (talk) 19:40, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- I had to look up Kobe Bryant to understand who he was. Turns out he was a former basketball player who died in a helicopter crash. Not seeing the connection. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:25, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- He had not had any major acting role for several years and basically recovering from his drug addiction period. Nowhere close to untimely, compared to Kobe Bryant's death. Masem (t) 12:25, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Blurb The actor is primarily known for his role in one TV series. Apart from that he is just another actor who had a series of roles here and there. The circumstances surrounding his death doesn't make him any more worthy of a blurb. Otherwise we'd need to blurb Susan Ross, given that she died after licking some toxic envelopes. Chrisclear (talk) 09:28, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- He is not another actor from series, this is THE most popular sitcom in the world.
- First, we can not say "apart from it" because it's the most important part that defines his notability.
- Second, he had other notable work and isn't one hit wonder.
- He had three starring roles in TV series and several leading roles in films, including hit The Whole Nine Yards (and its sequel).
- "The circumstances surrounding his death doesn't make him any more worthy of a blurb" - on the contrary, they precisely make him worthy of a blurb. Kirill C1 (talk) 09:48, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Blurb. Death of a worldwide known star in such age is a story. And first our criterion is death is the story. Which is the case here, it will be investigated for some time. Kirill C1 (talk) 09:41, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Fame and popularity (nor lack of them) are used to decide about posting. And no, there's no major investigation here, they've ruled out foul play nor drug overdose. Masem (t) 12:27, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
Oppose anythinguntil the article is in a decent shape. - SchroCat (talk) 10:10, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Update: Support RD. Maybe with an image instead of a blurb. I don't think he's right for a blurb. - SchroCat (talk) 16:55, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support RD, Oppose blurb. I've dealt with the citation needed tags and I couldn't see anything else which was obviously unsourced. Suonii180 (talk) 10:26, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support RD, Oppose blurb. Good article quality. --NoonIcarus (talk) 10:36, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Filmography and awards still unsourced. Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:37, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb - I think we need to read the room here with all that is going on in the world. His level of impact as an actor is not on the level we would call "a superstar" either.--82.153.161.212 (talk) 12:04, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb - A very sad event indeed, and Friends is indeed known worldwide (as are many other TV shows), but there is no way he rises to the level of a blurbable death. Black Kite (talk) 12:21, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- OK for RD now (good work with the refs since the news broke). No blurb, per others. Moscow Mule (talk) 16:07, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support RD - good quality article. --Pithon314 (talk) 16:11, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Кирилл С1 and Andrew Davidson: Can you please stop proposing death blurbs before an article has met quality standards for RD? You do realise that suggesting blurbs in this manner will more often than not result in the article never reaching the quality standards it requires even for RD? BangJan1999 16:14, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Admins willing to post ITN: Is the article ready yet for RD? BangJan1999 16:16, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- It looks much improved from yesterday. What's with the orange "expand section" tag in the awards? – Muboshgu (talk) 16:34, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support RD - quality concerns have been addressed. Strong oppose blurb - the idea of a certain editor (or two) that any once even-slightly-notable figure is worthy of a blurb, especially before the article quality is improved, has become outright disruptive at this point. Friends was popular, but he’s not even close to the point of a blurb. The Kip 16:32, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment - Concerning the "death as the main story" criterion that some users are bringing up: There is no criterion for a death blurb. There are some guidelines through which significance can be assessed, but there's no requirement to post as a blurb even if it feasibly meets that guideline. It's intended to be open-ended so that we don't post blurbs that might be eligible on paper but don't carry the added relative significance that we tend to seek for death blurbs. Plausibly, this is such an example, as it carries the same weight whether it's an RD or a blurb, thus it should be an RD. Duly signed, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 16:44, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Technically the death is the story for every RD nom. After all, they wouldn't be nom'd if they hadn't died and it hadn't become a news story. The "death as the main story" idea is that it should be more than the death/obit that people are talking about. It should have a significant impact in some way, and Perry's death won't likely have any significant impacts beyond more people streaming Friends for the next week or two, I imagine. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:54, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:25, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support RD, oppose blurb: make sure that the article is well sourced and ready, then post for RD. Blurb is way too much; Perry was a good actor, but not well known enough for an international news blurb (if it were American news only, then yes, but there isn’t). You could put a lot of different actors in a blurb post; however, they not only need to be an actor who is extremely popular overall in their field (which Perry, despite being popular in the sitcom field, isn’t necessarily the hugest actor in the film industry in general), but has been an a pioneer in that industry. Kybrion (talk) 17:26, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment - I usually oppose blurbing RDs, but in this case it has made a lot of significant news coverage. Still leaning oppose, but I think there's a debate to be had. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 19:49, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Post-posting oppose blurb: While Friends was indeed an international phenomenon, and Perry was a member of its ensemble cast, I don't believe he himself was at the level of celebrity that merits a blurb. Sad that he died an untimely death, regardless. Funcrunch (talk) 20:47, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) 2023 Rugby World Cup final[edit]
Blurb: South Africa beats New Zealand in the Rugby World Cup final. (Post)
Alternative blurb: In rugby union, the World Cup concludes with South Africa defeating New Zealand in the final.
Credits:
- Nominated by Schwede66 (talk · give credit)
Article needs updating
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: Article does not appear ready as there needs to be prose about the game itself, and that's not there yet. Schwede66 00:28, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Do we need to mention "rugby union" specifically as well? From what I gather there are three versions of the game internationally. Gotitbro (talk) 05:15, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Important enough but the amount of text on the match isn't good enough. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:4B00:E809:A00:B130:6F9B:51C4:1C92 (talk) 07:56, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. The match details section needs to be expanded and the Notes are mostly unsourced. --Bcp67 (talk) 14:30, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Tons of CN tags and very little prose in the match summary. The Kip 19:40, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Ready The match section is now solid and fully referenced. The notes section has been referenced. I see no remaining issues that would stop this from being posted. There is one style tag, but yellow tags do not disqualify an article (orange and red-level tags would disqualify as per our guidelines). Bcp67 and The Kip, do you want to have another look to confirm that your issues have been addressed? Schwede66 13:06, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- The details section looks reasonable and the Notes have been sourced, I'm OK with it now. Bcp67 (talk) 21:31, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Stephen 22:12, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
RD: Steve Riley[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Sleaze Roxx, Blabbermouth, Loudwire, Yahoo
Credits:
- Nominated by thrashbandicoot01 (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: American rock musician best known for being the drummer in the bands L.A. Guns and W.A.S.P. thrashbandicoot01 (t) 11:58, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Discography is unsourced. The Kip 19:48, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose In addition to the unsourced discography, there's an orange tag, needing additional citations. Tails Wx 02:36, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Discography has remained unsourced. Please add more REFs. --PFHLai (talk) 10:28, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
October 27[edit]
October 27, 2023
(Friday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
International relations
Law and crime
Politics and elections
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(Pulled RD) RD/Blurb: Li Keqiang[edit]
Blurb: Li Keqiang, the former Premier of the People's Republic of China, dies at the age of 68. (Post)
Alternative blurb: Li Keqiang, the former Premier of the People's Republic of China, dies from a heart attack at the age of 68.
News source(s): Xinhua News Agency, TASS
Credits:
- Nominated by 4iamking (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Nominator's comments: Former PRC premier 2013-2023 ✨ 4 🧚♂am KING 00:30, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support if sourcing issues are fixed. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 00:36, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Supportpretty surprising. article is better than a usual RD nomination considering he was the PRC's head of government. JM2023 (talk) 01:12, 27 October 2023 (UTC)- Support RD, Oppose blurb When I said Support the first time it was not nominated for a blurb, only RD. I do not support blurbing this death, it is not notable enough. He was not the active head of government. JM2023 (talk) 17:20, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Damn. Didn't think Xi would be that bold. Anyway, the article is sufficient in terms of covering his life, and is also verifiable. Bremps... 02:09, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- We needn't promote baseless conspiracy theories here. Gotitbro (talk) 09:43, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- My bad; I'll stop. Bremps... 16:01, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- We needn't promote baseless conspiracy theories here. Gotitbro (talk) 09:43, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Article looks pretty good, two missing refs should be filled quickly. Davey2116 (talk) 02:58, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support blurb per below. Very influential political figure in the world's most populous country. I would support blurbing a similarly influential U.S. vice president, so this seems appropriate. Davey2116 (talk) 21:34, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Needs some ref improvement still. - Indefensible (talk) 03:05, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Considering he was prime minister of such large and important country as China recently, and has been for ten years, and he died suddenly, can we talk about a blurb? Kirill C1 (talk) 06:38, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Definitely an important figure in recent Chinese history but I would be wary of opening ITN floodgates by blurbing essentially the second-(third?) in-command in the political hierarchy as we have only posted the deaths of the highest effective power holders in a country.
- Unless the factors of the death itself turn out to be a matter of discussion or interest (it appears to be sudden and unexpected) I think we should stay put. Gotitbro (talk) 09:39, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support blurb His death is significant enough to get the Chinese censors suppressing and downplaying the news – see Chinese Mourn the Death of a Premier. This Wikipedia is then a place that they might look to for details. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:51, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- We need not approach this from a WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS perspective though. And while reader interest can be factored in it should not be the sole criteria driving a blurb. Gotitbro (talk) 13:58, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- We'd be posting this because he was "Definitely an important figure in recent Chinese history". His legacy includes the Li Keqiang index. Andrew🐉(talk) 15:32, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- We need not approach this from a WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS perspective though. And while reader interest can be factored in it should not be the sole criteria driving a blurb. Gotitbro (talk) 13:58, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb Nothing in the article suggests that he had a major impact (beyond being a leading ruler of China), in comparison to people like Thatcher or Mandela. Sudden heart attack of an older person is not a surprising death. Oppose RD on quality issues only - a good handful of CNs that need fixing. --Masem (t) 12:57, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support blurb per Andrew.
Oppose on quality with the CN tags, though there's only 2 of them so I think we'll get this settled pretty quickly. S5A-0043Talk 13:09, 27 October 2023 (UTC)- Also I WP:BOLDLY removed the "unexpected" in main blurb because I don't think that's exactly a neutral language we'll probably want to use. S5A-0043Talk 13:10, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Blurb per andrew and also since he played a major force in the politics of China, one of the most powerful countries on earth, for the past decade. Support RD - there are only two CN tags and per WP:ITNQUALITY,
one or two "citation needed" tags may not hold up an article
. — Knightoftheswords 13:11, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Blurb. Fairly recently one of the most powerful people on the planet who died relatively young. Also something of a dissident even within his party judging from the article. DarkSide830 (talk) 14:30, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support blurb Sudden death, fairly young, and he was an important figure in Chinese politics until his retirement. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 14:34, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Where is "was an important figure in Chinese politics" discussed in the article? I would expect a significant Impact or Legacy section to describe how he altered or affected Chinese politics; my read of the article doesn't suggest this was the case. Masem (t) 17:12, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Blurb Notable Chinese Politician, died fairly young. TheInevitables (talk) 14:47, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support seems significant, was a significant political figure in China. Editor 5426387 (talk) 15:04, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb as he was a former and a premier of the PRC. Nothing unusual about the death either. I would support a blurb for both Hu and Xi when the time comes. | Pirate of the High Seas (talk) 15:26, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- But he was prime minister just this March, it's not like he is a figure of past, like Gorbachov or Jiang Zemin, whom we blurbed. Kirill C1 (talk) 15:47, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support blurb notable politician in China, with a sudden death. RIP Kanyewestlover999 (talk) 15:39, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb. This is getting utterly ridiculous. He was not the national leader, so he doesn't merit a blurb. Nothing he did in life warrants comparison with people like Berlusconi, Rawlings, Jiang, Vajpayee etc. who actual ruled their country in person for many years. And the suggestion that his death at the age of 68 is unusual or suspicious is entirely unfounded. — Amakuru (talk) 16:02, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Reminder that china is home to 1/7 of the worlds population... Lukt64 (talk) 16:59, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support: He was an important figure in Chinese politics and so it should be noted. Rager7 (talk) 16:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support blurb per Andrew. He was clearly an important figure in modern Chinese history with huge legacy.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 18:05, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- This is absurd. If his position in the government wasn't significant enough that we post it when its officeholder is replaced, then posting his death merely because he previously held the position doesn't even merit discussion. —Cryptic 19:18, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Admins willing to post ITN: BangJan1999 20:10, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support blurb: unlike other former second-in-commands, Li is very current; he only went down from his position seven months ago. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:21, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support blurb per TheInevitables. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1(The Garage) 20:38, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support RD, oppose blurb; we wouldn't post if a former French PM died, role is similar This post was made by orbitalbuzzsaw gang (talk) 20:57, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- What about a former French PM a few months after leaving office? Aaron Liu (talk) 23:08, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted RD – Muboshgu (talk) 20:59, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb
Many outside observers have remarked that Li was effectively sidelined by Xi Jinping's consolidation of power,[42] with some calling him the "weakest premier" since the CCP took power in 1949.
I'm sure he was important in that he was head of government, but I don't see anything so special or transformational that we should blurb this. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:59, 27 October 2023 (UTC) - Support blurb If he died in office, the event would be more important than a gracefully aged Thatcher or Mandela dying. It's only been a few months since he stepped down, so he's very much in the public eye and I'd argue that the event of him dying is about as important as Thatcher/Mandela's deaths. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 21:53, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb per Amakuru. Nothing in the article or the coverage of his death suggests he is significant enough to blurb. Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:22, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb -- he had no influential power at the time of his death. --RockstoneSend me a message! 22:29, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Immediate PULL article is not ready: many lines and paras have no sources. Premature posting. _-_Alsor (talk) 23:52, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- *Oppose i mean who knows him? 3000MAX (talk) 02:37, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- About 1 400 000 000 people I guess? Trepang2 (talk) 03:09, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- Go to WP:ITNCDONT at the top of the page to see that asking questions like "who" are against guidelines. Also, as the prime minister of the PRC, he governed over 1,400,000,000 people, so someone knew him. JM2023 (talk) 04:17, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support blurb, though some additional sourcing is needed in the article. Decade-long second in command of China who was central to formulating its economic policy even if he was sidelined in other aspects of state policy. He only recently stepped down from the post and the death was unexpected (Chinese state media did not have an obit prepared). With the trend of power consolidation he might also be remembered as the last premier with any significant real power for the foreseeable future. Also, while speculative, the deaths of past major Chinese leaders have traditionally been potential focusing lenses for reformer grievances (e.g. 1976 Tiananmen Incident after the death of Premier Zhou Enlai, and the the 1989 Tiananmen protests after the death of Hu Yaobang. The story is already more than just a standard death story, as news sources are analyzing the potential impact it has in Xi Jiping. [1][2] -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 05:35, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- Pulled from RD Quality is clearly not sufficient; significant number of CN tags including a whole paragraph. Black Kite (talk) 14:07, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support blurb. Jiust to be counted. While you can devised that from my previous comments, it wasn't stated explicitly. Kirill C1 (talk) 16:14, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- Weak oppose blurb - he was a fairly weak second-in-command to Xi, which doesn't really speak to rising to ITNR's notability standards. Oppose RD due to quality issues - I count 11 CN tags. The Kip 22:23, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- There's also a lot of ideological representation and his actions were impactful enough for an entire page on the New York Times. Agree that article needs work. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:17, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- Weak support blurb - Seems to be having a significant impact in Chinese politics. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 14:37, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb—As premier of China, Li was the second-most powerful member of the Chinese government. For me to be in favor of blurbing the second-in-command of a country, there needs to be something exceptional about either their death or their political influence. I would support blurbs for Dick Cheney and Al Gore, for instance, because they both wielded far more political or sociocultural influence than most other US vice presidents. Li died of a heart attack at 68, which might be a bit young in this day and age, but it's also not particularly noteworthy; he wasn't assassinated, nor did he die in a plane crash. I'm ultimately not convinced that his significance within Chinese politics reaches such heights as to warrant a blurb. Kurtis (talk) 00:42, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support blurb — Li was the head of Chinese government officially, absolutely a notable statesman. STSC (talk) 09:06, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
- Even officially Xi ranked higher as General Secretary. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:13, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
October 26[edit]
October 26, 2023
(Thursday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
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RD: Richard Moll[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Deadline Hollywood
Credits:
- Nominated by Masem (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: American actor, best known for his roll on Night Court. Article is sadly the typical mess of missing sources that many actor bios have and a ways away from posting. Masem (t) 23:56, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose due to the amount of unsourced content. Suonii180 (talk) 01:31, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment - Absurd lack of sources PrecariousWorlds (talk) 14:38, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Almost the entire career and filmography sections are unsourced. The Kip 19:41, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
(Closed) Indian espionage case in Qatar[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Blurb: A Qatari court has sentenced eight former Indian Navy officers to death on charges of espionage. (Post)
News source(s): Reuters, APNews, NDTV, Arab News, Bloomberg, TimesNowNews, Khaleej Times
Credits:
- Nominated by Ainty Painty (talk · give credit)
- The title implies they were spying for India, rather than Indian nationals spying for Israel. It also lacks information. Secretlondon (talk) 16:17, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose -
cn tags in the articleand I'm not sure the significance of this merits posting ✈ mike_gigs talkcontribs 16:20, 26 October 2023 (UTC)- All CN tags have been resolved. Kline • talk to me! • contribs 17:09, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, though I still think I oppose this on notability ✈ mike_gigs talkcontribs 17:19, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Procedural Oppose on account of the issue with the article title that may cause confusion. DarkSide830 (talk) 21:40, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- That's not a good reason to oppose; ITN says nothing regarding article titles and besides, the link is piped anyway. — Knightoftheswords 04:27, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- I think the blurb, although entirely factual, might have a similar issue as the title. If you were to just read the blurb and not click the article, you would get the impression that they were spying on behalf of India, but they were (allegedly) working for Israel. That said, if the Wikipedia article is to be trusted, the Qatari government hasn't even officially linked them to Israel, only "media reports" have, so I'm not sure whether we even should mention Israel in the blurb. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 04:48, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- That's not a good reason to oppose; ITN says nothing regarding article titles and besides, the link is piped anyway. — Knightoftheswords 04:27, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait - If this has a widespread impact on relations between Israel, Qatar, and India, as well as the ongoing war, then I'd consider supporting. But that seems dubious 2A00:23C8:B00:AD01:4CA7:190C:4222:72FE (talk) 06:44, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment When was the time we posted a conviction carrying death, before the execution, or both? Gotitbro (talk) 09:48, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait - If this has a widespread impact on relations between Israel, Qatar, and India, as well as the ongoing war, then I'd consider supporting. But that seems dubious 2A00:23C8:B00:AD01:ADD5:5AEA:BC72:6032 (talk) 13:01, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
RD: Syed Abul Hossain[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Channel Online
Credits:
- Nominated by Fahads1982 (talk · give credit)
- Updated by OGBC1992 (talk · give credit) and Tails Wx (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Fahads1982 (talk) 11:40, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment whole section unreferenced, i put a template, everyone feel free to cite it. JM2023 (talk) 13:07, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support citations no longer needed JM2023 (talk) 01:13, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support I've inserted references and removed the tag, as stated above. Article looks in good shape to be posted. Tails Wx 01:11, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: Article seems pretty heavily weighted toward the Padma Bridge scandal; is there anything else that can be added about his business or political career? SpencerT•C 15:01, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
October 25[edit]
October 25, 2023
(Wednesday)
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(Posted) RD: Zdeněk Mácal[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): ceskenoviny.cz + others
Credits:
- Updated and nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Czech conductor who left for the West when the Prague Spring was crushed, and couldn't return home until after communism, but conducted 170 orchestras in the rest of the world, with chief positions in Germany, Australia and the US. The article had much detail but few references. Some details are still without ref, so will have to go if none can be found. I'm out for the day, - always hoping for help ;) - I also had no time yet to translate the Czech obit, - there are others, short in English, longer in German. Same hope. -- --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:27, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Update: while I found no specific ref for his London debut, there's now an English obit in The Telegraph, only I have no access. Help? Please check the article, it's about time, and I'm still on vacation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:41, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- The Telegraph obituary indeed had that information. Now fully cited. Support Marking ready. SpencerT•C 15:56, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Stephen 22:21, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Helena Carr[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [3]
Credits:
- Nominated by Happily888 (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Stephen (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Malaysian-born Australian businesswoman, wife of Bob Carr. Happily888 (talk) 07:35, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Article is in good shape. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:08, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Bertie Bowman[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): CNN
Credits:
- Created and nominated by TJMSmith (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
TJMSmith (talk) 01:03, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support article is well-referenced; though it wouldn't hurt to expand it. Tails Wx 01:13, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted. --PFHLai (talk) 17:33, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) Lewiston shootings[edit]
Blurb: In the United States, at least twenty-two people are killed and over fifty are injured in a mass shooting in Lewiston, Maine (Post)
News source(s): CNN, NBC News
Credits:
- Nominated by ElijahPepe (talk · give credit)
elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 01:58, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait, inclined to support when the article is further expanded. Death toll is double digits, there are three shooting locations, and the gunman is still at large. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:04, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support upon expansion. I rarely support US mass shootings as they are about as common as rain. But this one looks really bad, even by American standards. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:08, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Actually, large-scale active shooter incidents like this are not that commonplace. The most recent mass shooting in public with over five fatalities was back in January in Los Angeles, and there was a blurb about that I believe 2023 Monterey Bay shooting. Rocketman771 (talk) 03:10, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- That's why I am supporting this. Mass shootings are extremely common in the US. But incidents with double digit fatalities are not. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:48, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Actually, large-scale active shooter incidents like this are not that commonplace. The most recent mass shooting in public with over five fatalities was back in January in Los Angeles, and there was a blurb about that I believe 2023 Monterey Bay shooting. Rocketman771 (talk) 03:10, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait Horrifying incident, but we still know very little and the article needs expansion. Leaning support due to scale. The Kip 02:09, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support We have 22 dead and up to 60 people wounded, this easily is in the top 10 worst shootings ever in the United States since 1949. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:30, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- If there were, but of our two original sources, one has retracted the claim about 22 dead, and the other simply reports that a local councillor said it could be as high as. Not only does this not crack the top 10, it's not even in the top 5 in the last decade! Nfitz (talk) 11:50, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. We don't post bigger massacres in many other countries. I don't think we even nominated September 2023 Mali attacks after 63 were killed. Or the Karma massacre where somewhere between 60 and 156 people were killed. If the death-toll rises into the triple digits then perhaps reconsider. But these kind of things seem all too frequent - I don't think it's even the biggest mass killing in that country in the last decade - which is hard to comprehend. No prejudice against an ongoing about the lack of gun control there. Nfitz (talk) 02:37, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Nfitz: The first one you mentioned was conducted by Islamist militants, the second was by the Burkina Faso Armed Forces. Maine isn't a war zone, here we have one person who killed more people than the state of Maine sees in a year in regard to homicides. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:42, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Granted, it's an event of very poor taste. But the point of Nfitz still stands. Bedivere (talk) 02:46, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but what point is that? Are we going to have a "deaths" quota that must be met for it to be included here? Not even the 2017 Las Vegas shooting (worst shooting ever in the USA) was in the triple digits. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:03, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not commenting on whether or not we should add this to ITN as I'm too close to this situation to be objective (see username). But to me, ITN on English Wikipedia is always going to be inherently biased towards events such as this in English-speaking countries over non-English-speaking countries, because the news we rely on to source ITN is predominantly English-speaking and our users are predominantly English-speaking. This is going to be more directly relevant to our readers on English Wikipedia than tragedies in Mali and Burkina Faso. MAINEiac4434 (talk) 03:06, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Also, this is currently front-page news on BBC and The Guardian, below their coverage of the Israel-Hamas War and ahead of their coverage on the US House Speaker election. It is also currently front page on Le Monde's French website and El Pais's Spanish website. MAINEiac4434 (talk) 03:08, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with you about the bias, but this should be for a broader community discussion. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:11, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- They are going to give a press conference soon with updates. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:13, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Hang on - so this is more important because the dead were Christian instead of Muslim? I don't think so. Looking [4]], I'm having problems finding the last year there were only 16 homicides in Maine. Though that this is so high for Maine is a good point. Nfitz (talk) 11:54, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- This is likely the deadliest mass shooting in Maine's history according to local news, and the 12th deadliest mass shooting in United States (self-ref to navbox) ~ Eejit43 (talk) 12:00, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Stop building strawmen and calm down. Nobody mentioned the identity of the dead, they mentioned the identity of the killers in context. Mali is experiencing multiple major insurgencies and is a borderline failed state, so is Burkina Faso. Mass killings by Islamic terrorist armies are not so unusual in active war zones where they are combatants. JM2023 (talk) 12:19, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- The use of the word Islamic here us both prejudicial and unnecessary.
- No mass killings in Ukraine? Nfitz (talk) 14:07, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- It's not prejudicial to state that the terrorists are Islamic, I am talking specifically about Islamic terrorists because they are the type involved in jihadist insurgencies which is what you and I are talking about, and they even self-identify as Islamic and motivated by their sect of Islam. This is tangential and the story has already been posted anyway, we can stop now. JM2023 (talk) 14:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Granted, it's an event of very poor taste. But the point of Nfitz still stands. Bedivere (talk) 02:46, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- You definitely have a point about the systemic bias of Wikipedia, but this isn't a perfect comparison. September 2023 Mali attacks is not anywhere near ITN quality. Karma massacre was created nine days after the event occured, when the news cycle was moving away. Wikipedia is definitely flawed, with a Western-centric slant, but this isn't holding up as a reason to oppose blurbing this particular item. Bremps... 03:48, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- The lack of nomination is the main thing that kept these from being posted. That isn't a fault of the current story. As Bremps pointed out, there were other issues had these been nominated, but the solution is to improve and nominate articles such as these, not punish ones that happen to get more attention. 07:07, 26 October 2023 (UTC) La Ovo (talk) 07:07, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Punish? It's not a contest. Nfitz (talk) 11:55, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Nfitz: The first one you mentioned was conducted by Islamist militants, the second was by the Burkina Faso Armed Forces. Maine isn't a war zone, here we have one person who killed more people than the state of Maine sees in a year in regard to homicides. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:42, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support This one is exceptionally bad even for a shooting in the USA. The fact that the perpetrator is still at large means this is especially pertinent. Bremps... 02:45, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- How many times have we heard that?
- Let's see how the death toll goes past 16. I doubt it will exceed 30. It's all too common. Nfitz (talk) 03:48, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Well, it did go past 16 (22 as of writing). Judging by the amount of injured, there is definitely a possibility of the death toll reaching 30. Bremps... 03:50, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Leaning support. This is already monumental for the time and place, and it is almost a certainty that the death toll will rise further in the coming hours, given the number of wounded. BD2412 T 02:51, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - yes, shootings are more common here in the US than in much of the rest of the world, but 22+ people killed are still very rare. This also happened in part of the country that has a very low homicide rate. -- RockstoneSend me a message! 03:18, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - people are likely looking for this, it emphasizes Wikipedia's dynamism, and for those who aren't aware, will easily hook them, or 3 points out of WP:ITNPURPOSE. 72+ casualties is rare, even for an American shooting— Knightoftheswords 03:24, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose because ITN editors refused to post the Nashville school shooter "per ITN precedent with respect to shooting geography". One would assume the precedent stands. JM2023 (talk) 03:26, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment The Nashville shooting had eight casualties, this one has at least 70 (and possibly climbing). Bremps... 03:34, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Er, the casualities are only 22, not 70 (we don't include wounded) Masem (t) 03:36, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- I guess, but we also blurbed Robb Elementary School shooting which had the same amount of deaths (assuming the toll from this one does not increase). So we would have a precedent for posting this one. Bremps... 03:45, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Er, the casualities are only 22, not 70 (we don't include wounded) Masem (t) 03:36, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment The Nashville shooting had eight casualties, this one has at least 70 (and possibly climbing). Bremps... 03:34, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Considering Support. Mass shootings may be common in the US but, I may make an exception to this one considering the number of deaths and injuries. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 03:26, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Lean Support Death toll is high, we posted Uvalde which has the same death count but obviously that's different since that one was a school shooting. Yes it's the United States but 20+ deaths is rare even here. Jbvann05 03:34, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Rare? Surely there's already been one already this century! That's hardly rare. Nfitz (talk) 03:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- ITN isn't solely for once in a century events. The Nobel Prize wouldn't be blurbed, as its annual. Neither would US Presidential elections and the Olympics, as they are every four years. Bremps... 03:53, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- In a country of 330,000,000+, Yes, mass shootings like this are rare. -- RockstoneSend me a message! 03:56, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Rare? Surely there's already been one already this century! That's hardly rare. Nfitz (talk) 03:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment -- CNN pointed out something.... this is near the border between the US and Canada. This isn't just a national concern. -- RockstoneSend me a message! 03:56, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I understand your comment. How would Canada be impacted? Bremps... 04:08, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- It's almost 100 miles from Canada. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 04:54, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- It's near the border between the US and Canada. Actually, maybe I should stop listening to the talking heads, since they apparently think 100 miles is nearby. -- RockstoneSend me a message! 04:55, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- It's less than a 3-hour drive, without breaking the speed limit. The shootings were about 6 hours ago. BD2412 T 04:58, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- It's pure speculation to consider this an international concern anyway. A shooting in Serbia doesn't become an international incident just because the shooter could get to a border in a few hours. JM2023 (talk) 05:05, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- I was going to say, if this somehow counts as near enough to the border with Canada then any event in Seattle is also a Canadian concern and any event in Phoenix is a Mexican concern. As a Canadian denizen I am not in the least concerned for Canada here. There could be a joke about those talking heads here about Americans and their poor sense of geography. JM2023 (talk) 05:01, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- It's less than a 3-hour drive, without breaking the speed limit. The shootings were about 6 hours ago. BD2412 T 04:58, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I understand your comment. How would Canada be impacted? Bremps... 04:08, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support. Not common mass shootings have over 20 deaths in the US.`~HelpingWorld~` (👽🛸) 03:59, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - The number of dead and injured people is much higher than most mass shootings in this country. Already the top story on a few prominent news sites outside the typical US/UK/Canada/Australia groups (such as NHK, Bild, The Hindu, and Marca). SounderBruce 04:22, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment why not "In the United States, at least 22 people are killed and over 50 are injured in a mass shooting in Lewiston, Maine"? (why have the numbers been spelled out?)—indopug (talk) 05:05, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Per MOS:NUMERAL, numbers above nine can be presented as either numbers or words. Curbon7 (talk) 05:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support due to the high death toll Unknown-Tree (talk) 05:13, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose, shooter is a White male with mental health issues. I would have supported this if it was a terrorist or hate crime incident. Unfortunately, shootings in the United States are run of the mill everyday news. | Pirate of the High Seas (talk) 06:09, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- This is a form of terrorism. That he is white is irrelevant. -- RockstoneSend me a message! 06:30, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Is it terrorism though? Mass murder is not synonymous with terrorism, terrorism has a political or ideological motivation or goal. JM2023 (talk) 10:13, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Exactly. _-_Alsor (talk) 11:57, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Is it terrorism though? Mass murder is not synonymous with terrorism, terrorism has a political or ideological motivation or goal. JM2023 (talk) 10:13, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- This is a form of terrorism. That he is white is irrelevant. -- RockstoneSend me a message! 06:30, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose I just looked at the NYT and its headline for this is currently "At Least 7 Dead in Lewiston as Police Put City on Lockdown" and that was updated just 20 minutes ago. That seems a lot less than the blurb number of 22 and the article number of 15 and so there seems to be a lack of consistent, reliable information. We should wait on the outcome and investigations. Andrew🐉(talk) 06:46, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - per Knowledgekid87 Maine does not see such high amounts of homicides. Merlinsorca 06:48, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait, leaning support because the event does seem to be fairly extreme with regard to casualties. However, at the moment, there's too much uncertainty to make a properly informative blurb. CNN is reporting "at least 22". BBC is reporting 16, possibly 22. NYT is reporting "at least 7". I anticipate more info will come to light as the US moves into the daylight hours and official statements are made, at which point a more solid blurb can be formed with multiple agreeing sources.
- Wait. If the death toll is lower, this doesn't appear to pass the (quite correct) high bar we have for persistent US mass shootings. If it is in the 20s though, that's a different level of significance. Black Kite (talk) 07:23, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait but leaning to oppose another day, another shooting in the US. _-_Alsor (talk) 09:21, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - ITN newsworthy due to the large number of civilian victims. STSC (talk) 10:23, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Leaning towards support more than oppose. The interest in this case is quite high, and it should get recognition. However, we should delay the posting due to killer not yet found. Until there is concrete information, it would be prudent not to post at this moment Buncha2345 (talk) 11:29, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - unheard of shooting in Maine, a lot of interest in this case especially as the suspect is at large. As others have mentioned, local sources say there are 16 dead, not the 22 numbers CNN/BBC were reporting earlier. ~ Eejit43 (talk) 11:51, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- It is also of note that this is likely the deadliest mass shooting in Maine (per the Portland Press Herald), and seems to be the 12th deadliest in US history (according to navbox, the Gun Violence Archive puts it at around 8th). ~ Eejit43 (talk) 12:04, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose plenty of examples provided above where the perpetrator of mass casualty events, despite the notability and significance of the event, is ignored when they don't meet a particular narrative. As others have pointed out, mass shootings in the US are common, and I don't see the reason why we should post about this one compared to others that have occurred this year. Kcmastrpc (talk) 12:47, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - I'm seeing sources back up the 22 casualty count. Plus, this doesn't happen often in Maine. The fact that the shooter is still at large and a manhunt is underway makes this more newsworthy IMHO ✈ mike_gigs talkcontribs 13:35, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted per consensus above, tweaking the blurb to account for the article's listed death toll + putting the country at the end per Wikipedia talk:In the news/Archive 106#In In the News, headlines often put cart before horse. I gave no weight to the "another day, another shooting in the US" !vote. Ed [talk] [OMT] 14:07, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- @The ed17: Though your assessment of consensus is a valid one (and I agree with it), it's worth noting that "another day, another shooting" has over the last few years on ITN/C become a shorthand for a larger argument being made about the newsworthiness of mass shootings in the U.S., and the fact that the argument has shrunken to its now-abbreviated form might be masking that fact. Every few months it feels like, we have random active shooter events across the country where 10 or 20 people at a time would be killed in schools, colleges, bars, shopping malls, etc., making news headlines but otherwise following a formulaic cycle: shock and sadness, "thoughts and prayers", outrage, promises of action, fading into obscurity, and so on. Insofar as anything occurring as a result of the shootings such as policy changes or mass protests, they were essentially muted in long-term significance.
- The abbreviation was due to the fact that we were regularly having nominations - I'd hate to put a number on it, maybe six or seven in a year - for such mass shootings in the U.S. and having to continually restate this point probably became tedious for commenters, who themselves were probably dealing with their own form of bewilderment at seeing these types of noms frequently. So I don't know whether or not knowing this makes any difference, but I just wanted to provide background in case you weren't sure why these types of !votes spring up seemingly unchallenged. Duly signed, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 15:52, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- Excellent points Walt. Nfitz (talk) 17:55, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- Everything you said applies equally to earthquakes, fires, floods, wars, assassinations, and so on. Levivich (talk) 20:16, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- Walt, when assessing consensus I judge comments based on ITN's guidelines. If a person wants to write "another day, another shooting in the US", that's an immediate WP:ITNATA. I only specifically noted it here because it was also a problematically glib comment about a horrifying incident. (I'm pretty sure we'd all look down on "another day, another murder in X" or "another day, another bomb dropped in Y"; this isn't different.) Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:38, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Facts are facts. However sad and execrable they may be. _-_Alsor (talk) 11:11, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Ed, that's a moral argument, which is not allowed (WP:ITNATA), whereas pointing out that mass shootings have little significance is permitted. 9WP:ITNSIGNIF) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:45, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Walt, when assessing consensus I judge comments based on ITN's guidelines. If a person wants to write "another day, another shooting in the US", that's an immediate WP:ITNATA. I only specifically noted it here because it was also a problematically glib comment about a horrifying incident. (I'm pretty sure we'd all look down on "another day, another murder in X" or "another day, another bomb dropped in Y"; this isn't different.) Ed [talk] [OMT] 03:38, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
(Closed) Johnson elected Speaker of the House[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Blurb: Mike Johnson is elected Speaker of the United States House of Representatives (Post)
News source(s): Associated Press, BBC, NYT, Al Jazeera
Credits:
- Nominated by Purplebackpack89 (talk · give credit)
- Support as nom pbp 21:19, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose The removal was notable enough for a blurb since it was the first time ever, the election of a new speaker not so much. This is not the head of government in the US. Noah, AATalk 21:06, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per above. The article that should be assessed is October 2023 Speaker of the United States House of Representatives election, not the general speaker article. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:07, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose It took a long time for the speaker election, but not notable on the whole. Natg 19 (talk) 21:31, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose and close We all know that nomination was going to come up; we all know that there is not going to be a consensus. _-_Alsor (talk) 21:37, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support This is clearly significant and in the news. The nomination needs work through. The article should be October 2023 Speaker of the United States House of Representatives election and we need some news sources and an image. I shall update it accordingly. Andrew🐉(talk) 21:45, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose - internal politics. nableezy - 21:50, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- The current four blurbs are all elections of some sort and all internal politics for particular countries too. The speaker election seems more significant than all of them because it has more impact on the global financial system and ongoing conflicts like Gaza and Ukraine. Andrew🐉(talk) 22:02, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- The other elections are a result of public elections, while this was just, effectively, a body of about 220 ppl (the GOP) finally agreeing for one position that is not publicly elected. Masem (t) 22:15, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- The details of the process are not important – different places have different methods such as coups and we still post them. What matters is that we have a result which is more significant than the failed referendum in Australia, for example. That happened over 10 days ago and so is quite stale now. Andrew🐉(talk) 22:39, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Meh, argue against having those elections then. This one though is internal politics of little actual importance. nableezy - 22:54, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- At what point does Andrew’s “But I don’t like it” argumentative style cross the line between annoyance and disruption? The Kip 02:00, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- A constitutional amendment referendum of a major democracy, even a failed one, is more important than the appointment of a presiding officer of one chamber of a bicameral legislature in the middle of a congressional incarnation. While "Internal Politics" is not a reason to not blurb something and actually goes against two different guidelines (ITNR and the other one against opposing things for being non-international), internal house of representatives politics to elect a presiding officer who is nothing close to a head of state or government is not significant enough for ITN. JM2023 (talk) 03:19, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Meh, argue against having those elections then. This one though is internal politics of little actual importance. nableezy - 22:54, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- How does the replacement of one GOP presiding officer with another GOP presiding officer have significant impact on the global financial system? This isn't a Fed chairman or a president. JM2023 (talk) 03:36, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- This Republican is so crazy he makes his predecessor look sane. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:55, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Very helpful, simply calling the new officer extremely crazy and giving 0 further explanation. that really helps me see that this could drastically alter the global financnial system. JM2023 (talk) 06:33, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- This Republican is so crazy he makes his predecessor look sane. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:55, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose If this event were to take place in any other country, editors would have the common sense to resist the urge to nominate it for ITN, because it's just about politicians choosing someone for a particular role, and not the result of a public election, nor relating to the head of the executive branch. The fact this story happened in the US does not make it any more important. Chrisclear (talk) 22:34, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- We posted Lizz Truss's resignation and replacement, and the prime minister's position is nothing but a bunch of politicians choosing someone for a particular role. -- RockstoneSend me a message! 03:58, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Liz Truss was the head of the executive branch of government. The Speaker of the United States House of Representatives is not. I updated my previous comment to reflect this distinction. Chrisclear (talk) 04:23, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose - it's a bit too wonkish for me. Nfitz (talk) 23:25, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose and snow close at this point as well, parliamentary speakership isnt ITN worthy.✨ 4 🧚♂am KING 23:38, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Except that in spite of the similar title, this position is not analogous to positions such as Speaker of the House of Commons; even a brief overview of their selection, powers, & traditional role does indicate that the closest parallel in Westminster-style systems is in fact Prime Minister. The United States is fairly unusual for straying far from that system, so it lacks a single unitary leader. This is particularly noteworthy as the United States can thus have a "split government" (as it does now) where different houses are held by different parties. - Nottheking (talk) 23:57, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- except that a Prime Minister is also chief executive in the executive branch, chairman of the Cabinet, appointer of the rest of the ministers and parliamentary secretaries (giving them way more control over the legislators through patronage), and strong leader of the always more powerful lower house or unicameral parliament.
- compared to an American speaker who only has power over the less powerful lower house through control of the whip and the agenda.
- a prime minister and an American speaker are even less parallel than an American speaker and a Westminster speaker. JM2023 (talk) 03:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Except that in spite of the similar title, this position is not analogous to positions such as Speaker of the House of Commons; even a brief overview of their selection, powers, & traditional role does indicate that the closest parallel in Westminster-style systems is in fact Prime Minister. The United States is fairly unusual for straying far from that system, so it lacks a single unitary leader. This is particularly noteworthy as the United States can thus have a "split government" (as it does now) where different houses are held by different parties. - Nottheking (talk) 23:57, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Much less newsworthy than the removal of the Speaker, which was posted. One story on this internal political maneuvering is enough. Pawnkingthree (talk) 23:44, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Weak Support on Principle, Oppose on Quality We released the Kevin McCarthy's ousting to ITN, so I feel like we should have some closure on the circumstance. However, the article's in rough shape for ITN though. ❤HistoryTheorist❤ 23:46, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Weak Oppose on Principle, Oppose on Quality The removal of a Speaker (de facto a fractional Head of Government for the weird, very un-Westminster style of government the United States uses) was indeed very unusual, noteworthy, and newsworthy. However, the selection of a new speaker, while briefly news, is much less unusual. We can compare this to elections: in nominal circumstance, a new government forming in any country isn't noteworthy, as instead the event that is newsworthy is the preceding election that elected said legislature. (that then formed a government)
- The only real exception to this is when the outcome of government formation isn't considered "obvious" to the media & other sources. (e.g, a very fragmented election that requires an unpredictable coalition be formed) However in this case, the Republicans had a majority, and it was probably inevitable that they'd pick a Speaker that they could agree upon. I could have seen it being ITN-worthy had this been a particularly bizarre outcome, (such as accidentally electing Hakeem Jeffries) but "The Republican majority successfully picks one of their own as a new leader" is much more ho-hum than that. - Nottheking (talk) 00:04, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per all above. As someone who opposed the McCarthy blurb, at least that could be justified by being the first time it’d happened in a very long time; this, however, is your average internal political event. The Kip 01:58, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Leaning support. Ascension of the head of a coequal branch of one of the largest governments in the world. While the presidency gets more attention, this is on par with a new president taking office in the middle of the term. BD2412 T 02:48, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Not a general election, not a head of state, not a head of government, not even the head of a unicameral legislature. And we already did the removal. Not significant enough at all . JM2023 (talk) 03:12, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Good-faith nom. I feel we are opening a Pandora's box of non-heads of state being blurbed. This really only pertains to one party of one chamber getting their act together.
- This doesn't impact to my oppose, but would most Wikipedians support a Removal of Mike Johnson blurb à la Removal of Kevin McCarthy if this sort of thing happens again? I think ITN is just generally unprepared for the norm-shattering stuff of the US politics of the 2020s. Bremps... 03:40, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- If it becomes a regular event then no one cares anymore. Presumably it was blurbed because it had never happened in America before. JM2023 (talk) 03:45, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose We already blurbed the removal, since it was unique. This event is not particularly significant. Black Kite (talk) 07:20, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose As covered above, this is not a head of state position and is not usually blurbed. The most notable part of the process was the time taken rather than Johnson's election anyway - but either way, Speaker of the House is not a role we would consider nominating, nor similar positions in other countries. La Ovo (talk) 07:31, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) Hurricane Otis[edit]
Blurb: Hurricane Otis (satellite image pictured) makes landfall at Category 5 intensity near Acapulco, Mexico (Post)
Alternative blurb: Hurricane Otis (satellite image pictured) landfalls near Acapulco, Mexico becoming the first known Category 5 East Pacific landfall.
Alternative blurb II: Hurricane Otis (satellite image pictured) makes landfall as a Category 5 hurricane near Acapulco, Mexico, the first recorded landfall at that intensity in the Eastern Pacific, killing at least 27.
News source(s): New York Times, The Washington PostBBC
Credits:
- Nominated by Cyclonebiskit (talk · give credit)
- Created by MarioProtIV (talk · give credit)
- Updated by MarioProtIV (talk · give credit), Supportstorm (talk · give credit) and Jasper Deng (talk · give credit)
Nominator's comments: A completely unexpected "nightmare scenario" as this storm went from possibly making landfall as a minor hurricane to becoming the first Category 5 on record (1949 to present) to strike the Pacific coast of Mexico. Its core struck Acapulco directly in the middle of the night. Reports of damage are starting to trickle out, but a Category 5 striking a major metropolitan area is not a common occurrence. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 14:44, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait until the damage is reported to see how significant it is. JM2023 (talk) 15:16, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait – Same reasoning as above. This probably deserves it, but I'd like a little more info on the effects from reliable sources first. Penitentes (talk) 15:59, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- For a few hours yet, communications are still cut in the area (electricity out, cell service out, etc), which happens regularly with the worst disasters. Acapulco is fairly well connected, however, so news will probably start coming in later on Wednesday. This time we are not looking at a days-long Lac-Mégantic silence (which led many ITN editors at the time to think nothing significant had happened). Incidentally, the next two ISS orbits will take it almost directly over the area, starting in about an hour. - Tenebris 66.11.165.110 (talk) 16:26, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait per above. The Kip 16:31, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
Wait Not going to oppose since this almost certainly will warrant posting, but we need to know a lot more on the impact.
Noah, AATalk 17:46, 25 October 2023 (UTC)- The time for waiting is over. Support alt blurb two which effectively combines the record landfall intensity and impact. Noah, AATalk 14:18, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Wait for the initial reports, although I would certainly support this blurb as this is truly unprecedented for this part of Mexico (although we already saw this intensification rate with Hurricane Patricia 8 years ago, that hurricane did not hit a major metropolitan area). It will take days/weeks to know the full scale of the damage, but once the preliminary situation reports get released, I think it would be right to post this event to ITN. Vida0007 (talk) 00:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Post-posting support Formally changing my vote to support as more details became known (especially with regards to the death toll). Also, I think the blurb should be updated to include the [preliminary] damage total once it becomes known. Vida0007 (talk) 22:54, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support We probably cannot expect a lot of details for a while (maybe for weeks), but the initial reports we got over the past 12-24 hours should be enough for ITN. Renerpho (talk) 08:23, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- I'd prefer the first alt blurb. Renerpho (talk) 15:59, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support due to the large number of fatalities, usually around 20 is the cutoff for ITN. --72.68.134.26 (talk) 16:46, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted a version of an altblurb, though I might suggest this alternative if there is support for it: "Hurricane Otis becomes the first known Category 5 storm to make landfall in the East Pacific, killing at least 27 people." Ed [talk] [OMT] 17:58, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- The most interesting feature of this storm seems to be its rapid intensification, increasing its wind speed by over 100 mph in a day and breaking the 12-hour record. See Hurricane Otis: The mystery of why storms suddenly intensify. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:20, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
October 24[edit]
October 24, 2023
(Tuesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
Disasters and accidents
Law and crime
Politics and elections
Sports
|
RD: Niels Holst-Sørensen[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://politiken.dk/sport/art9591474/Tidligere-dansk-IOC-medlem-Niels-Holst-S%C3%B8rensen-er-d%C3%B8d
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Danish Olympic athlete (1948) and air force officer. 65.94.213.53 (talk) 03:14, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
- Needs referencing. Stephen 04:57, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Missing two sources for timings in Athletic career, but otherwise good. DarkSide830 (talk) 17:02, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Ina Cronjé[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.iol.co.za/news/politics/former-kwazulu-natal-mec-for-finance-and-anc-stalwart-ina-cronje-dies-e5787fc5-5470-4850-b788-5d4d4eecbb57
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: South African politician, member of the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature (1994–2014). 65.94.213.53 (talk) 03:14, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Ricardo Iorio[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): La Nación, Clarín, Infobae
Credits:
- Updated and nominated by Cambalachero (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: The most important heavy metal artist from Argentina, and perhaps South America. A career from the early 1980s to this day, and leader of 3 different big bands. Cambalachero (talk) 19:43, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- support dont know much about them, but the article seems pretty well sourced. Lukt64 (talk) 20:58, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Discography needs REFs, please. --PFHLai (talk) 11:25, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- What is there to reference? It's just a list of works, with no statements. Motörhead#Discography, Black Sabbath#Discography (good article), Metallica#Discography (featured article), Megadeth#Discography (featured article), etc, do not have references either. Cambalachero (talk) 12:58, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- i think there is a general trend at least recently of people getting nominated and then editors pointing out unsourced filmographies/discographies followed by other editors pointing out that most filmographies/discographies are not sourced and then other editors trying to cite the whole filmographies. Seems to be an ongoing issue. JM2023 (talk) 13:03, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- "Recently"? If you read the guidelines at WP:ITN, you'll see WP:ITNQUALITY which says
Lists of awards and honors, bibliographies and filmographies and the like should have clear sources.
That has been there since 26 March 2018, pursuant to this talk page discussion, and the previous proposal that was before the rewriting implies that this has been the standard for years. So recently is inaccurate; this has been standard practice on ITN/C for a long time. Scientia potentia est, MonarchOfTerror 17:42, 26 October 2023 (UTC)- I wasn't talking about any guidelines, I was talking about discussions like this one. Not my fault that people dont follow them. Although having only found that one example I think I misremembered there being more than 1 recent example. Gets confusing when so many blue links are dying all the time. JM2023 (talk) 17:53, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- It seems I initially misread your comments, my apologies. I do agree with your sentiment though, this is a rather persistent issue that happens on ITN, that many editors come and argue about whether discographies, bibliographies and the like need sources. I don't think it's a general trend recently though, more of an perennial issue that occasionally pops up. Scientia potentia est, MonarchOfTerror 17:56, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- I wasn't talking about any guidelines, I was talking about discussions like this one. Not my fault that people dont follow them. Although having only found that one example I think I misremembered there being more than 1 recent example. Gets confusing when so many blue links are dying all the time. JM2023 (talk) 17:53, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- "Recently"? If you read the guidelines at WP:ITN, you'll see WP:ITNQUALITY which says
- It wouldn't make much sense for ITN to have standards higher than those of featured articles. Cambalachero (talk) 13:29, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- All of the articles you mentioned have separate articles for the discography, this article doesn't. The standard isn't higher, it's just that the referencing for those discographies is in the side article instead. Since this article doesn't have a separate article for the discography, it needs to be referenced. And we do need a refs for a discography. Scientia potentia est, MonarchOfTerror 17:37, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- i think there is a general trend at least recently of people getting nominated and then editors pointing out unsourced filmographies/discographies followed by other editors pointing out that most filmographies/discographies are not sourced and then other editors trying to cite the whole filmographies. Seems to be an ongoing issue. JM2023 (talk) 13:03, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Done Cambalachero (talk) 14:44, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- What is there to reference? It's just a list of works, with no statements. Motörhead#Discography, Black Sabbath#Discography (good article), Metallica#Discography (featured article), Megadeth#Discography (featured article), etc, do not have references either. Cambalachero (talk) 12:58, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted to RD. SpencerT•C 14:58, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Richard Roundtree[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Deadline Hollywood
Credits:
- Nominated by Masem (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Nohomersryan (talk · give credit), MatthewHoobin (talk · give credit), Oltrepier (talk · give credit) and Tails Wx (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Actor best known for playing Shaft. Article is miles away from being postable with lack of sourcing throughout. Masem (t) 02:07, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Who is the man that will fix this article? Kirill C1 (talk) 16:02, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- The Film section of his filmography is now entirely sourced, while the Television section is still lacking some citations (he had quite a career)! I welcome anyone interested to take a crack at looking over the prose—I've only really been focusing on the filmography tables. —Matthew / (talk) 07:33, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- @MatthewHoobin: I've just given it a shot, and it should be slightly better now. I would make a few notes, though: firstly, some statements throughout the prose likely need citations, as well; secondly, we should find better sources that NNDB and IMDb, since they're usually avoided due to their user-generated content. Still, the article looks almost ready to go for me! Oltrepier (talk) 15:52, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- MatthewHoobin and Oltrepier: I've sourced the "Career" section and just starting to hit the "Television" section with more references. And I agree–he had quite a career! A bit more to go; thanks to both of you for your help! And as Oltrepier noted above, the NNDB and IMDb sources should be replaced with reliable sources since they're user-generated. Tails Wx 21:29, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- With relation to filmography, Imdb is not user based. Kirill C1 (talk) 22:06, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Filmography entries on IMDb have to be reviewed by IMDb staff, but they're still user-submitted, and the consensus is that they're not reliable (see WP:IMDB). It looks like the only time IMDb is used as a source on Roundtree's article at the moment is for the list of his awards, and that should be replaced by reliable sources. —Matthew / (talk) 01:01, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- @MatthewHoobin: I've added reliable sources to the awards section, which should cover all the nominated and won awards except for one, which I couldn't find references for. Tails Wx 02:21, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- I've mostly finished the television section, there's a few shows that still needs references, but overall it looks in good shape, and the sourcing is sufficient for ITN posting. Support. Tails Wx 01:53, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- @MatthewHoobin: I've added reliable sources to the awards section, which should cover all the nominated and won awards except for one, which I couldn't find references for. Tails Wx 02:21, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Filmography entries on IMDb have to be reviewed by IMDb staff, but they're still user-submitted, and the consensus is that they're not reliable (see WP:IMDB). It looks like the only time IMDb is used as a source on Roundtree's article at the moment is for the list of his awards, and that should be replaced by reliable sources. —Matthew / (talk) 01:01, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- With relation to filmography, Imdb is not user based. Kirill C1 (talk) 22:06, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- MatthewHoobin and Oltrepier: I've sourced the "Career" section and just starting to hit the "Television" section with more references. And I agree–he had quite a career! A bit more to go; thanks to both of you for your help! And as Oltrepier noted above, the NNDB and IMDb sources should be replaced with reliable sources since they're user-generated. Tails Wx 21:29, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- @MatthewHoobin: I've just given it a shot, and it should be slightly better now. I would make a few notes, though: firstly, some statements throughout the prose likely need citations, as well; secondly, we should find better sources that NNDB and IMDb, since they're usually avoided due to their user-generated content. Still, the article looks almost ready to go for me! Oltrepier (talk) 15:52, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
Support after the improvements we made. Oltrepier (talk) 07:32, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
Support per above. —Matthew / (talk) 17:14, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
(Closed) Cyclone Tej[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Blurb: Cyclone Tej makes landfall in Yemen near the Oman–Yemen border (Post)
Alternative blurb: Cyclone Tej leaves at least 2 Dead, 150 Injured, and 10,000 Displaced in Yemen
News source(s): Nasa, [5], [6], [7], [8]
Credits:
- Created and nominated by Abo Yemen (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Susmuffin (talk · give credit) and Mobius Gerig (talk · give credit)
- support i dont ever see hurricanes in this area, and considering that its right next to yemen and somalia, 2 of the most wartorn countries on earth, this could cause thousands of deaths Lukt64 (talk) 12:42, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Cyclones hitting the Arabian Peninsula is hardly rare. DarkSide830 (talk) 14:56, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
Opposedue to quality - multiple empty, orange-tagged sections in the article ✈ mike_gigs talkcontribs 13:01, 24 October 2023 (UTC)- can you review the article again? I've filled the empty sections Abo Yemen✉ 13:48, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait until impact becomes more clear - fair enough on the quality point ✈ mike_gigs talkcontribs 17:56, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: Even if the sections are filled, the cyclone's total damage and deaths are still not clear. Sorry, but for now, this is still not ITN worthy. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 17:28, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- The cyclone has displaced 1800 families according to the Yemeni Red Crescent [9] Abo Yemen✉ 17:48, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: Even if the sections are filled, the cyclone's total damage and deaths are still not clear. Sorry, but for now, this is still not ITN worthy. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 17:28, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per article quality concerns noted above. Wait until further impacts occur, I'd like to see more significant impacts before posting. Tails Wx 13:04, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- I've filled the empty sections; Can you change it to wait instead of oppose + wait Abo Yemen✉ 13:49, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait, Leaning Oppose.
(edit conflict) x2 The article is nowhere near ready to be posted as there are many empty sections and tags. Also, Wait until the deaths and damage is clear. Also, until the cyclone's aftermath becomes clear, I suggest changing the blurb.
Update: While the article has been expanded, there are still many problems with the article. A tag has been placed that the article is missing information after the storm was named. Also, the cyclone appears to have dissipated as it's no longer tracked by the IMD and JTWC. I'd still support Wait until the full damage from the cyclone becomes clear. If the damage and deaths were minimal, I'd oppose, as that would not be notable enough to be posted. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 13:17, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose as of now as impacts do not appear pursuant to that that we would expect for a tropical cyclone posted to ITN. DarkSide830 (talk) 14:54, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Not seeing a reason to post this at this time. Landfall is not sufficient for an ITN posting.
- Noah, AATalk 14:57, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
Wait, lean oppose - The cyclone's effects aren't entirely known, but thus far from what is known I'm not seeing enough to justify blurbing.The Kip 18:52, 24 October 2023 (UTC)- Oppose - it’s been roughly three days since landfall and human impact seems minimal, besides the flooding/displacement typical of any hurricane. Not blurb-worthy. The Kip 19:54, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait before effects of the cyclone are determined. Kanyewestlover999 (talk) 20:12, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait until we get damage and casualty reports Elisecars727 (talk) 21:32, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose barring any serious death toll. Flooding is a natural result of any of these types of storm systems, but the effects seem rather limited even in this case. --Masem (t) 00:18, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose for now Until it is clear the impact of the storm and the (notorious) number of deaths it may cause. _-_Alsor (talk) 06:16, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- 2 Dead, 150 Injured, and 10,000 Displaced, source Abo Yemen✉ 13:12, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Not enough for an ITN posting as everyone here has stated. While WP:MINIMUMDEATHS doesn't exist, we don't post WP:RUNOFTHEMILL tropical cyclones. Single digit death toll events are almost never posted on ITN unless it's the assassination of an important figure or something of that nature. Noah, AATalk 17:45, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Totally agree with Noah. This is the consensus that we have been taking here for some time. _-_Alsor (talk) 18:16, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Not enough for an ITN posting as everyone here has stated. While WP:MINIMUMDEATHS doesn't exist, we don't post WP:RUNOFTHEMILL tropical cyclones. Single digit death toll events are almost never posted on ITN unless it's the assassination of an important figure or something of that nature. Noah, AATalk 17:45, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- 2 Dead, 150 Injured, and 10,000 Displaced, source Abo Yemen✉ 13:12, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment that infobox needs updating. It is still stuck on 24+ hours ago, before landfall. 50.101.173.184 (talk) 08:48, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- the infobox is always updated Abo Yemen✉ 12:50, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- With all due respect, be careful to not approach the point of WP:BLUDGEONing. You've responded to six different votes thus far. The Kip 16:16, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oh I'm sorry I'll stop now Abo Yemen✉ 18:49, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- With all due respect, be careful to not approach the point of WP:BLUDGEONing. You've responded to six different votes thus far. The Kip 16:16, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- the infobox is always updated Abo Yemen✉ 12:50, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per above. Landfall is not significant, effects are not yet fully known. Also the alt blurb has four grammatical errors. JM2023 (talk) 15:18, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Three minor capitalization errors (on a par with German nouns), readily fixable.
- I agree that the Arabian Peninsula is becoming a downright common place for cyclones. However, they are extremely rare as far south as Yemen, although Yemen also happens to be particularly vulnerable due to continued (proxied) civil war. The terrain is conducive to landslides; but the current difficulty is mostly (desert-style) heavy rain and flooding. Different scale, but at landfall wind speeds made it somewhere between a category 1 and 2. Cyclone Chapala was stronger at landfall, and had a somewhat similar track at landfall, thankfully also avoiding major cities. - Tenebris 66.11.165.110 (talk) 16:15, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- i am almost certain you meant to reply this paragraph to Lukt64 at the top and not me. JM2023 (talk) 18:37, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
October 23[edit]
October 23, 2023
(Monday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
Disasters and accidents
International relations
Law and crime
Science and technology
Sports
|
(Posted) RD: Tom Walker[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/ron-cook/2023/10/25/neil-walker-tom-obit-mlb-pittsburgh-pirates-baseball-pine-township/stories/202310250043
Credits:
- Updated by Jkaharper (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: American professional baseball pitcher. 65.94.213.53 (talk) 22:11, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Desert Crown[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/horse-racing/67199594
Credits:
- Updated by Bcp67 (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Winner of the 2022 Epsom Derby. 65.94.213.53 (talk) 22:11, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: István Láng[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Violin Channel
Credits:
- Updated and nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk · give credit)
- Created by Jerome Kohl (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Hungarian composer of international influence. The article was good to start with, begun by Jerome Kohl our expert in 20th-century music as long as he lived. A short recordings section could easily be added using Musiekweb, but I'm on vacation, and the next two RD articles are waiting.. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:55, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Article is in good shape and looks ready for posting in its current state. Good work! Tails Wx 02:00, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted to RD. SpencerT•C 14:33, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
RD: Bill Kenwright[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian
Credits:
- Nominated by Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Jkaharper (talk · give credit), Diademchild (talk · give credit) and NorthernFalcon (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Everton chairman Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 05:58, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. Many sections in the article needs citations. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 13:41, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Bishan Singh Bedi[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Hindu
Credits:
- Nominated by Fahads1982 (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Jkaharper (talk · give credit) and Tails Wx (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Fahads1982 (talk) 11:38, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Article needs some ref improvement currently. - Indefensible (talk) 18:08, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Good article about an important cricket player. Srf123 (talk) 08:05, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- A handful {cn} tags need to be addressed. Please add more REFs. --PFHLai (talk) 14:39, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support I've added references and removed the {{citation needed}} tags. Courtesy ping PFHLai. Tails Wx 15:48, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, @Tails Wx, for the new footnotes. --PFHLai (talk) 14:46, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted. --PFHLai (talk) 19:01, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
(Closed) Ongoing: Unitary Platform presidential primaries[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Blurb: No blurb specified (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian, Financial Times, El País
Credits:
- Nominated by NoonIcarus (talk · give credit)
- Oppose. We don't have a habit of covering similar primaries, and I don't believe it to be globally shaking enough to make an exception just yet - especially with how lopsided the results seem to be. River10000 (talk) 19:10, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Probably belongs in ITN. It is just not important enough for Ongoing. Lukt64 (talk) 19:11, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Not even there. We don't post primary elections. -- RockstoneSend me a message! 20:05, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- I'm well aware it would be uncommon, but it's one of the reasons why I highlighted the relevancy of these ones and how important they are for Venezuela. I understand if there's still opposition, though. --NoonIcarus (talk) 20:29, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. Venezuela's elections are rigged and Machado is barred from holding public office anyway. DarkSide830 (talk) 19:23, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose There's not even a blurb, how is one suppose to post this on ITN? Editor 5426387 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 20:30, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose The nomination is for an "Ongoing" entry, not a blurb, but I'm not sure whether it is even ongoing. It seems like the voting has already ended and all that remains is to count the votes and declare a winner. However, I don't think we usually blurb presidential primary results. For example, even the ITN nomination for Trump's victory in the 2016 Republican primary was rejected. Unless there's something really noteworthy about this specific primary election I don't think it should be posted. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 20:41, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per above IP user’s rationale. Primaries in any country simply typically don’t rise to the level of ITN’s standards to post. The Kip 01:09, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Seems like a good faith nom but can probably be WP:SNOW closed soon. - Indefensible (talk) 03:18, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
October 22[edit]
October 22, 2023
(Sunday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
Disasters and accidents
International relations
Law and crime
Politics and elections
|
(Posted) RD: Charles E. Young[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-10-22/charles-young-obit
Credits:
- Nominated by Natg 19 (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Bagumba (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Long-time chancellor at UCLA. Natg 19 (talk) 21:07, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Article looks good. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 21:10, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support. Article is in good shape. Seems ready to be posted. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 04:09, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment Marked "Ready". Charles E. Young § Political stances is marked for too many quotes, but that's a yellow tag, not the orange or red showstoppers mentioned at WP:ITN. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bagumba (talk • contribs) 12:01, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Meets criteria. Ollieisanerd (talk • contribs) 18:57, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Stephen 11:04, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
RD: Vincent Asaro[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): New York Daily News
Credits:
- Nominated by Tails Wx (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Jkaharper (talk · give credit) and Strattonsmith (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: American mobster. Article looks in decent shape. Tails Wx 02:28, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Article is in good shape. There's just one citation need tag that needs to be sorted out though. I would like to see that fixed before it's posted. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 04:06, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Looks like we need more referencing in the section on his "Mob career", esp. when pointing fingers at mobsters and murder suspect. --PFHLai (talk) 14:15, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
(Closed) RD: Samantha Woll[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): New York Times
Credits:
- Nominated by SchroCat (talk · give credit)
- Created by Dsp13 (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
- I have initial concerns with this and BLP1E - while her life is being documented in wake of her tragic death, lack of sourcing before her death is a problem. Masem (t) 12:41, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, I am also unconvinced that she was notable before her death; I suspect that if an article had been constructed prior to that, it would probably have been redirected to the synagogue article should it have gone to AfD. Black Kite (talk) 13:12, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
RD: Betsy Rawls[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): ESPN & ABC
Credits:
- Nominated by SchroCat (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Jkaharper (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: A four-time winner of the US Women's Open SchroCat (talk) 12:40, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- Earwig found similar text at another website. No clue who copied who. Also, the bullet-points and table after the prose need references; please add more REFs. --PFHLai (talk) 14:08, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- There's some inconclusive analysis of this on Talk:Betsy Rawls. —Cryptic 20:31, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. Information on wins is unsourced. DarkSide830 (talk) 23:20, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
2023 Swiss federal election[edit]
Blurb: The Swiss People's Party, led by Marco Chiesa, expands its plurality in the Swiss National Council. (Post)
Alternative blurb: The Swiss People's Party, which campaigned on opposing immigration, expands its plurality in the Swiss National Council.
News source(s): Bloomberg, Reuters, Associated Press, Financial Times
Credits:
- Nominated by 1990'sguy (talk · give credit)
Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: The 2023 Swiss federal election received much media coverage because of its results. 1990'sguy (talk) 13:24, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support, though should also contain a piece of info about the grand coalition cabinet that the Swiss are basically permanently stuck in. The blurb can be seen as a bit deceiving.
- River10000 (talk) 15:21, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Just as a note, the election for Switzerland's Federal Council will occur on December 13. --1990'sguy (talk) 19:43, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support; major news coverage and national elections are ITNR This post was made by orbitalbuzzsaw gang (talk) 16:33, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: Please see Talk:2023_Swiss_federal_election#Originally published percentages have been corrected. The article probably should be brought up to date before it goes ITN (but I'm incapable of correcting the numbers at this moment). Thanks! ---Sluzzelin talk 13:04, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing this out. I just updated the percentages. --1990'sguy (talk) 13:28, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose ITNR, maybe a bit light on prose, but should have more citations. some paragraphs have nothing cited. JM2023 (talk) 15:22, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
October 21[edit]
(Posted) RD: Bobi[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC News
Credits:
- Nominated by Joseywales1961 (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Confirmed as longest recorded living dog, article is short but not a stub and reasonably well sourced Josey Wales Parley 12:37, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Weak support - yes, article is short but I think its just long enough and has just enough citations. Not much more can be expected for this article ✈ mike_gigs talkcontribs 14:46, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Article is sufficient. There is one outstanding cn tag though, and I would like to see that fixed before it hits the main page. Bremps... 00:40, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Article is long enough and does not have any sourcing issues. Mooonswimmer 16:56, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Stephen 11:01, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
(Closed) RD/Blurb: Bobby Charlton[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths nomination
Blurb: English footballer Bobby Charlton dies at the age of 86. (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian, NYT, Al Jazeera, DW, France 24, CNN, BBC, CBS
Credits:
- Nominated by Pawnkingthree (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
- Blurb As the article says, "Widely considered one of the greatest players of all time" and so seems comparable with Jim Brown who was blurbed earlier this year. Andrew🐉(talk) 16:32, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Bad comparison. Brown was more than an athlete. See Jim Brown#Acting career and Jim Brown#Civil rights work. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:36, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Bobby Charlton was way bigger than Jim Brown.
- Just look at number of wiki pages.
- Brown, 38, and Charlton has 67 as of now. Kirill C1 (talk) 17:45, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- "Number of wiki pages"? – Muboshgu (talk) 18:14, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Maybe he was referring to articles in other Wikipedia languages. I've always thought the 2023 FIBA Basketball World Cup was a bigger event than the 2023 Cricket World Cup; it's written in more Wikipedia languages (36 for basketball vs 30 for cricket). I guess Brown was bigger than these two events? Howard the Duck (talk) 18:23, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Maybe he was. If so, it's irrelevant what other languages he has a page on as we're here on the English Wikipedia. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:27, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- There are always arguments about worldwide fame. Number of articles in different languages indicates how much a person is known in the world. Kirill C1 (talk) 18:41, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, that is what I referred to. Kirill C1 (talk) 18:42, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- That's a good point. You can use langviews to show the readership across all languages and this is a good way of assessing global impact and interest. Comparing the all-time, all-language views, we have
- As I said, they are quite comparable. Andrew🐉(talk) 07:56, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- Nice. I tried comparing the 4 world cups this year:
- 2023 FIBA Basketball World Cup (5.6 million)
- 2023 Rugby World Cup (6.8 million)
- 2023 FIFA Women's World Cup (12.4 million)
- 2023 Cricket World Cup (13.3 million, of which 12.9 million is from en.wiki)
- Howard the Duck (talk) 08:28, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- I think most views for Jim Brown come from English wiki. Kirill C1 (talk) 18:05, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- Then it would make sense to blurb Jim Brown as we did, as this is the English wiki. Duly signed, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 13:47, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Nice. I tried comparing the 4 world cups this year:
- Maybe he was. If so, it's irrelevant what other languages he has a page on as we're here on the English Wikipedia. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:27, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Maybe he was referring to articles in other Wikipedia languages. I've always thought the 2023 FIBA Basketball World Cup was a bigger event than the 2023 Cricket World Cup; it's written in more Wikipedia languages (36 for basketball vs 30 for cricket). I guess Brown was bigger than these two events? Howard the Duck (talk) 18:23, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- "Number of wiki pages"? – Muboshgu (talk) 18:14, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Bad comparison. Brown was more than an athlete. See Jim Brown#Acting career and Jim Brown#Civil rights work. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:36, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb Unnecessary, RD is fine. Not ready for posting yet. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:37, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb As in pop music and acting, the field of leading personalities in association football is so vast that only the very best should be blurbed. Johan Cruyff was not blurbed in March 2016, which I find outrageous as he was one of few people to change the way football is both played and managed. Charlton is well known and recognised within football - ten stories right now on the front page of Marca and the lead on L'Equipe while games are being played in France - but was not a global icon like Pelé or Maradona. Unknown Temptation (talk) 17:52, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Two wrongs do not do right.
- He was a global icon. Kirill C1 (talk) 17:53, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Maybe global icon was not the right term to use, but there's a bracket where there's Pelé, Maradona, Messi and Ronaldo and very few others. Not fact, just my opinion. Unknown Temptation (talk) 17:59, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- I see nothing on that page to suggest he was a "global icon". One of the best players of all time? Sure. But there's too many of those to blurb. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:16, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support blurb. One of the greatest players of all time. The only winning captain of England, winner of European Cup, record holder for Manchester United. Obvious blurb. Kirill C1 (talk) 17:48, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Not to take away from someone who achieved a lot more than I ever will, but Charlton didn't captain England in 1966, that was Bobby Moore. Charlton also lived to see his records broken for England appearances (by Moore in his own career) and goals (by Wayne Rooney and then Harry Kane), and Manchester United appearances (Giggs) and goals (Rooney). Unknown Temptation (talk) 17:54, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- See Guardian obit for impact. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/oct/21/sir-bobby-charlton-obituary Kirill C1 (talk) 17:55, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- One Guardian obit does not establish blurb-worthiness. It would need a lot more coverage. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:15, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Blurb. Very clearly one of the best soccer players ever. The key word is "one" of. Have we blurbed a soccer player that is father down the "best" list yet? DarkSide830 (talk) 17:56, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Not from soccer, but we blurbed Shane Warne with 30 wiki pages. Charlton has almost seventy. Kirill C1 (talk) 18:39, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- By that logic, if Corbin Bleu were to pass away, he would be a clear choice for a blurb, given that he has articles in 213 different language Wikipedias. See Wikidata. BangJan1999 18:49, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- That is actually fascinating. How in the hell does this guy have an article on nearly every Wikipedia? AryKun (talk) 19:49, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- At the risk of derailing the conversation, that's truly amazing. I've never heard of him before, but Bleu has more Wikipedia articles than Mohammed, the Buddha, Napoleon, and Elizabeth II.
- Does anyone know the story with this? Did one of his fans decide to create an entry for him in 200 languages, or was it an SEO campaign, or something like that? I refuse to believe this occurred "naturally". I checked some of the revision histories in little-known languages (e.g. Greenlandic, Norfuk) and they were created by Saudi Arabian IP users, mostly circa 2010. Bizarre. Edit: I found a news article about this on Insider.com and they came to the same conclusion about a dedicated fan from Saudi Arabia.
- Anyway, this example definitely makes the case that number of sitelinks is not an infallible metric for notability. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 21:49, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- It never is, either on or off enwiki. Pop culture and sports etc. fans, editathons and numerous other factors influence these. The only focus should be on the main article of a topic and the relative importance of that in its field or otherwise. Gotitbro (talk) 03:12, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- That is actually fascinating. How in the hell does this guy have an article on nearly every Wikipedia? AryKun (talk) 19:49, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- And Warne was a mistake. DarkSide830 (talk) 00:25, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- By that logic, if Corbin Bleu were to pass away, he would be a clear choice for a blurb, given that he has articles in 213 different language Wikipedias. See Wikidata. BangJan1999 18:49, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Not from soccer, but we blurbed Shane Warne with 30 wiki pages. Charlton has almost seventy. Kirill C1 (talk) 18:39, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb for reasons given above, no indication that he had a significant influence on the sport as someone like Pele. Oppose RD for numerous unsourced statements on this article. --Masem (t) 18:34, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb per above. AryKun (talk) 20:14, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- RD at least. Yes, one of the best players ever (and I grew up in England with him at his finest in the 1960s - he was a big part of English life at the time). Unsure whether he warrants a blurb.--A bit iffy (talk) 20:40, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb since I wouldn't vote for a blurb for any sportsballist, let alone one who I've never heard of This post was made by orbitalbuzzsaw gang (talk) 20:45, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. Very short on citations. Moscow Mule (talk) 21:22, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb. I don't think he was so impactful that he reaches blurb level. — Amakuru (talk) 21:55, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- I'll remember that when the next barely known baseball player get's a blurb. 91.125.140.227 (talk) 21:49, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb per above rationale. Here we go again. The Kip 23:29, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Global survey It's the day after the death and, following the discussion of languages above, I just looked at the main pages of the 15 biggest Wikipedias to see how they compare. Bobby Charlton's death is currently on the main pages of the following language editions: Chinese, Dutch, French, German, Polish, Portuguese and Spanish. Looking at the exceptions, it seems that the following languages don't do any recent deaths: Italian, Japanese, Russian, Ukrainian and Vietnamese while the Arabic edition only seems to list people from the Arab world. So the only two major languages which are dragging their feet on this news are English and Swedish. "A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country..." Andrew🐉(talk) 09:41, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- There are quality issues (lack of sources) that still present that prevent this from even going to RD. Masem (t) 11:47, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for that misrepresentation of statistics. I checked every single version you mentioned, and he is there in RD. We are not dragging our feet for RD, we're discussing whether or not he should have a blurb. None of those Wikipedias have him as a blurb, so what they have done is irrelevant here. AryKun (talk) 11:50, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- We're discussing all aspects but I didn't get into the RD/blurb issue for those other languages because those details vary. For example, the German posting is "Bobby Charlton (86), englischer Fußballspieler († 21. Oktober)" while the French have "Bobby Charlton (photo)". These provide more details than an English RD and so are better. But my point was not the level of detail but the fact that most of those other languages have posted the news in a timely fashion. Presumably they are not hampered by the toxic process that we have here, which makes a battleground out of a simple announcement. Andrew🐉(talk) 16:39, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- The German Wikipedia does that for every RD they post, as you would have seen by the fact that the other 4 RD's right next to it also have the same type of shortdesc. The French Wikipedia also adds "photo" to every RD that is currently a photo. That is not details varying, that's just different RD formats, which is irrelevant to the discussion here. AryKun (talk) 18:10, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- No one is making it toxic or a battleground here. It flat out fails quality purposes on en.wiki, which is a necessary requirement before even RD posting. Obviously, the other wikis have different quality rationales, which don't apply here. The de.wiki version of the articles has nearly zero sourcing, for example, which would never fly for even a normal BLP article here. Masem (t) 17:11, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- I think comparing other language wikis to the English wiki is an effective strategy for making these discussions more toxic. They do what they do and aren't relevant to what we do. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:38, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- Is someone going to send Andrew to ANI or not? I thought we were going to try and make an improvement on ITN/C as far as toxic behavior goes, and he has been repeatedly bringing up irrelevant statistics and arguments to nominations which do nothing to advance the discussion, nor help out whatsoever in getting the item posted. Duly signed, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 02:30, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- No one can stop you. JM2023 (talk) 03:06, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Admins willing to post ITN: Do any of you agree that Andrew Davidson's conduct on ITN is worth taking to ANI? BangJan1999 14:42, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Questions like that is not what that ping should be used for. Anarchyte (talk) 00:30, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Is someone going to send Andrew to ANI or not? I thought we were going to try and make an improvement on ITN/C as far as toxic behavior goes, and he has been repeatedly bringing up irrelevant statistics and arguments to nominations which do nothing to advance the discussion, nor help out whatsoever in getting the item posted. Duly signed, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 02:30, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- I think comparing other language wikis to the English wiki is an effective strategy for making these discussions more toxic. They do what they do and aren't relevant to what we do. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:38, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- No one is making it toxic or a battleground here. It flat out fails quality purposes on en.wiki, which is a necessary requirement before even RD posting. Obviously, the other wikis have different quality rationales, which don't apply here. The de.wiki version of the articles has nearly zero sourcing, for example, which would never fly for even a normal BLP article here. Masem (t) 17:11, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- We're discussing all aspects but I didn't get into the RD/blurb issue for those other languages because those details vary. For example, the German posting is "Bobby Charlton (86), englischer Fußballspieler († 21. Oktober)" while the French have "Bobby Charlton (photo)". These provide more details than an English RD and so are better. But my point was not the level of detail but the fact that most of those other languages have posted the news in a timely fashion. Presumably they are not hampered by the toxic process that we have here, which makes a battleground out of a simple announcement. Andrew🐉(talk) 16:39, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Blurb on notability. JM2023 (talk) 17:47, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- So being a World famous player and World Cup winner isn't notable enough? Perhaps he should have played baseball or Gridiron. 91.125.140.227 (talk) 21:46, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Unless you're at least a current head of state or major political figure then you're not notable enough. I wouldn't even blurb Jimmy Carter. Do not strawman me. JM2023 (talk) 14:58, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- So being a World famous player and World Cup winner isn't notable enough? Perhaps he should have played baseball or Gridiron. 91.125.140.227 (talk) 21:46, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support RD Appreciate we won't be adding a blurb but it's now overdue an RD. Conay (talk) 21:24, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support blurb - per my previously expressed view that people who are the subject of full length in depth obituaries in multiple sources in multiple countries merit a blurb. NYT, WaPo, The Times (London), Le Monde. Sources around the world view Bobby Charlton's passing as a news story worthy of significant space, so should we. And for the record, I had never heard of him prior to my NYT news alert, but, as ever, my own experiences are not the basis for inclusion or exclusion here. nableezy - 21:33, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support blurb considered one of the greatest of all time, with 200+ goals and a World Cup, he deserves his own blurb, RIP Kanyewestlover999 (talk) 21:42, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb Depending on who you ask, Sir Bobby Charlton is somewhere between the 20th and 30th best football player of all time. While talented and mourned, he doesn't reach the level needed for a blurb, as that tends to be reserved for the GOAT in a field, or at least the greatest of their generation. Blurbing Bobby Charlton would be on par with blurbing Gale Sayers in the NFL, Tom Seaver in baseball, Bobby Clarke in ice hockey, or Allan Border in cricket. While I'd agree that bigger sports have a stronger claim to cultural relevance and therefore notability, I still think that Bobby Charlton falls short of the blurb mark. NorthernFalcon (talk) 02:14, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Very weak support blurb should the massive sourcing problems be overcome. Charlton was certainly a massive figure in football, but I am still unconvinced that he rises to the level of a blurb; there are a number of still-living players who have achieved greatness but probably fall into this category. Indeed, there are very few players who would clearly qualify for a blurb (Messi, C. Ronaldo, Zidane, Beckenbauer, possibly Maldini and Buffon?) and hopefully we won't need to worry about any of thosev any time soon. Oh, and George Weah, but that's not just related to football. Black Kite (talk) 07:02, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Blurb - we can't blurb the death of every famous sportsperson. In this case, it is just "old man dies". -- RockstoneSend me a message! 20:09, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Why not? It seems any old baseball player gets a blurb. 91.125.140.227 (talk) 21:43, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- This October, the Real Main Page commemorates the deaths of five old baseball players and four young. Well, four between 50 and 70. All nine are probably fondly remembered by fans with the propensity to do so, yet none had their portrait hung in this tiny upper-right corner of a box some like to pretend is the important place. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:46, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Why not? It seems any old baseball player gets a blurb. 91.125.140.227 (talk) 21:43, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support RD, neutral on blurb, but the RD/Blurb argument means we've gone three days without posting anything at all, so let's get it posted somewhere (RD) and then upgrade to a blurb if and when consensus emerges. 2A02:C7E:30F9:A600:FC7C:5C6F:5B54:7090 (talk) 19:17, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose on quality Article needs some ref work before posting can be done. Once the sourcing issues are addressed, I would support a blurb given how he's regarded as "one of the greatest players of all time", meaning he was influential in his field. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 20:04, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
(Closed) Cyclone Storm Tej[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Blurb: Cyclone Storm Tej to make landfall between Yemen and Oman on October 25 (Post)
News source(s): [10], [11], [12], [13], [14]
Credits:
- Created and nominated by Abo Yemen (talk · give credit)
- Wait until landfall actually occurs and we can determine the extent of damage. --Masem (t) 14:39, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. No content in the target section and seemingly no related draft at the moment. DarkSide830 (talk) 16:16, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- fixed link. Check it now Abo Yemen✉ 16:54, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. The page has been changed to a redirect on several occasions, by several people, as recently as today, due to the storm not being set to make landfall for at least a few days. All have been reverted by you. - RockinJack18 17:17, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- can anyone close this nom Abo Yemen✉ 17:24, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
(Closed) TV-D1 mission[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Blurb: India becomes the fourth country to master launch abortion technology through the TV-D1 mission as part of the manned Gaganyaan program. (Post)
News source(s): Indian Express Jagran
Credits:
- Nominated by MSN12102001 (talk · give credit)
- Created by Erick Soares3 (talk · give credit)
Article updated
- Weak oppose - We usually only post launches rather than abort tests like this, but this is still a really cool event. I'm very impressed with how ISRO is advancing atm. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 13:46, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose An unmanned test launch is typically not the type of space exploration news we post. --Masem (t) 14:38, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Weak oppose per Precarious and Masem. Certainly an objective for the Indian crewed program, but not exactly fit for ITN. Iamstillqw3rty (talk) 19:26, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose on the grounds that it is the fourth country, not the first, not even the second, and not even the third. There is no way that this is notable. JM2023 (talk) 17:51, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
RD: Bill Hayden[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [15]
Credits:
- Nominated by Happily888 (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Governor-General of Australia, 1977–1983. Happily888 (talk) 06:27, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- From 1989 to 1996 per the article. Gotitbro (talk) 10:16, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support on condition that the citation needed tags are removed. Bremps... 00:42, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- The Weakest of Opposes 99% of the article is pretty well-sourced. However I cannot support because of the 1% that needs to be cited. ❤HistoryTheorist❤ 03:51, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- At least 5 {cn} tags remaining. Please add more REFs. --PFHLai (talk) 13:57, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
October 20[edit]
October 20, 2023
(Friday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
International relations
Politics and elections
|
(Posted) RD: Haydn Gwynne[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:
- Nominated by Stephen (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Bazza 7 (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: British actress known for Drop the Dead Donkey in the 90s. Stephen 02:22, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
Oppose Career section needs more refs.Scientia potentia est, MonarchOfTerror 16:10, 22 October 2023 (UTC)- Support One cn tag but it now looks sufficient for RD. Scientia potentia est, MonarchOfTerror 17:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Seems full referenced now. Stephen 01:42, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Admins willing to post ITN: could one of you do this one of mine please? Stephen 21:29, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted – Schwede66 21:49, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
October 19[edit]
October 19, 2023
(Thursday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
Disasters and accidents
International relations
Law and crime
|
RD: Atsushi Sakurai[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Mainichi
Credits:
- Nominated by Vida0007 (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Dimspiralsparrow (talk · give credit) and Xfansd (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Japanese musician who died on Thursday, although his death was only announced earlier today (24 October). Article meets the criteria for RD, although I think this could still be expanded a bit. Vida0007 (talk) 16:58, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Article doesn't cover his early life, but aside from that it's fine. Bremps... 02:50, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Atsushi Sakurai#Books lacks prose and sources. Are these books about him or written by him? --PFHLai (talk) 12:15, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
RD: Carlos Romero Deschamps[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [16]
Credits:
- Nominated by Bremps (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Dominus Moravian (talk · give credit), Normantas Bataitis (talk · give credit), Jkaharper (talk · give credit) and Kelisi (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Tone in article may come across as a bit snarky, so a few minor revisions may be needed Bremps... 00:48, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Tony Husband[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:
- Updated and nominated by Black Kite (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Cartoonist, notable mainly for Private Eye magazine. I have expanded and cited it, it's still quite short but sufficient. Black Kite (talk) 09:20, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Article is sufficient for RD. Scientia potentia est, MonarchOfTerror 16:09, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support ^agree with Monarch ✈ mike_gigs talkcontribs 14:48, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Stephen 20:50, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Daily Mirror
Credits:
- Updated and nominated by Abishe (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Represented Sri Lanka in both rugby and athletics. Once renowned as fastest runner in Asia. Abishe (talk) 01:01, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - article has enough sources ✈ mike_gigs talkcontribs 13:13, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Stephen 03:44, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) Sakharov Prize[edit]
Blurb: The Sakharov Prize is awarded to Mahsa Jina Amini and the Woman, Life, Freedom movement in Iran. (Post)
Alternative blurb: The Sakharov Prize is awarded to Mahsa Jina Amini and the Woman, Life, Freedom movement in Iran.
News source(s): European Parliament press release DW France 24 BBC
Credits:
- Updated and nominated by MonarchOfTerror (talk · give credit)
Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: I know we usually bold winners but it might be better to bold the award in this case, given the circumstances. Mahsa Amini doesn't have a standalone article on her, just one on her death, and there's no article on "Iranian woman-led protest movement" (Woman, Life, Freedom referenced is a slogan and not an organization, so that can't really be used either). Note that currently only the Sakharov Prize article is updated because I'm not sure how I would add this information into the other articles. Scientia potentia est, MonarchOfTerror 17:41, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support and I would see no reason in bolding the death article as that is precisely what the award acknowledged (as well as that article being in good shape --Masem (t) 17:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Weak oppose as the main article on the Sakharov Prize is pretty much a stub, as it's mostly a table. Would love to see more information in there, then I would be happy to support. Iamstillqw3rty (talk) 19:05, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Iamstillqw3rty: The article for Sakharov Prize is a list, and that's why there's comparatively less prose. Lists should be evaluated differently from other articles — this one is even a featured list. Scientia potentia est, MonarchOfTerror 21:06, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Neither bolded article has been updated to mention the prize. Stephen 22:00, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Needs work The prize is a motion of the European Parliament and it's not clear who gets the money as Mahsa Amini is dead while "Woman, Life, Freedom" is a slogan not an organisation. There were similar issues last year as the prize was awarded to the "Ukrainian People" and we didn't post it. The nominated article doesn't explain what actually happens in such cases and it doesn't give other details like the votes in that parliament. When even the Nobel Peace Prize is criticised here, it's not clear why we should give prominence to such weak sauce.
- Rather than highlighting this empty gesture, it would be more informative to look again at Mahsa Amini protests, which we posted a year ago and ran in Ongoing. That is still being updated and now has an Aftermath section where we read that "...as of September 2023, a crackdown is in process ... a "Hijab and Chastity Bill" passed Iran's parliament, calling for new punishments on women who go unveiled, including prison terms of up to 10 years ...". That seems to be the more relevant parliament as they have the power and jurisdiction.
- So, if we're posting this issue again, it should be done fully so that readers understand what is now actually happening on the ground. Here's a summary of the overall situation which was published on the anniversary by yet another parliament.
- Andrew🐉(talk) 08:48, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support. All three articles look fine to me. DarkSide830 (talk) 16:14, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment Mahsa Jina Amini has an article now. Wikilinks changed accordingly. Scientia potentia est, MonarchOfTerror 14:38, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Stephen 00:57, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment The article on Mahsa isn't great- it includes excessive family detail and says she was a perfect student etc. This kind of stuff always happens when people die but it's not great. It also says she was selected as a candidate for the prize (ie on a shortlist) rather than awarded the prize. The women, life, freedom article is contradictory - was it coined by the protestors, or the YPG or even Abdullah Öcalan himself? Secretlondon (talk) 15:22, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
RD: Syed Muhammad Zafar[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Samaa TV
Credits:
- Nominated by Fahads1982 (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Normantas Bataitis (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Fahads1982 (talk) 15:05, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose for now. There is an unsourced sentence in the "career" section. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 23:13, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- It is not a requirement that every sentence is sourced — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:34, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support: Now looks good and well cited. Ainty Painty (talk) 09:23, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Aside from the uncited statement in the career section, there are also 2 unsourced statements in the official posts section and the bibliography needs more sources or ISBNs. Also the infobox mentions his spouse but that isn't sourced anywhere and one of his children isn't sourced either. Side note but is it really necessary to name all of his children? Only one of them has a article (which happens to be the one that isn't sourced too). Scientia potentia est, MonarchOfTerror 12:19, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
RD: Burt Young[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC News
Credits:
- Nominated by TheInevitables (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Actor who played Pauline in the "Rocky" saga. Article seems to be in good shape. TheInevitables (talk) 14:28, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- The filmography doesn't have any sources. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 15:59, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- The Filmography is largely unsourced. The same footnotes are also needed in the prose on his acting career. Please add more REFs. --PFHLai (talk) 12:03, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Lasse Berghagen[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [17]
Credits:
- Updated and nominated by BabbaQ (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
--BabbaQ (talk) 10:29, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - well cited ✈ mike_gigs talkcontribs 13:43, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support. No problems found and looks good enough. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 23:16, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Stephen 00:15, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
(Closed) Russia withdraws from CTBT treaty[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Blurb: The Russian State Duma unanimously votes to revoke Russia's ratification of the CTBT Treaty banning nuclear tests and nuclear explosions. (Post)
News source(s): Reuters
Credits:
- Created and nominated by Synotia (talk · give credit)
Probably support in principle,article not ready The article has not yet been updated at all, nor has its companion article List of parties to the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty. The map also fails to reflect the change. Can someone confirm that this is significant enough to post? My understanding is that the treaty was already not in force, but this development is still quite an alarming shock to the status quo and might indicate that future Russian nuclear tests are to be expected. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 09:14, 19 October 2023 (UTC)- I retract the "probably support" bit given the comments below, although I remain unsure about significance. Would we post a blurb if, say, China or the US were to ratify the treaty? Revoking ratification seems at least as newsworthy as ratifying, especially given the context of an ongoing conflict. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 09:29, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Among the countries that haven't ratified the CTBT Treaty are the majority of nuclear weapon states (China, India, Israel, North Korea, Pakistan and the United States). France, Russia and the United Kingdom were the only nuclear weapon states that have ratified it. So, Russia's move from the smaller to the larger group isn't really that important.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 09:21, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose I concur with Kiril; I believe Russia has said they don't intend to actually resume nuclear testing, just that they don't want to be in the treaty any more. 331dot (talk) 09:23, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose The treaty has not even entered into force, so it's moot at this point, thirty years later. --Bedivere (talk) 16:55, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose first off, not notable as stated per above, second, article has no mention of Russia withdrawing from the treaty, and third, it has not come into effect yet. Editor 5426387 (talk) 17:20, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per Kiril; if the world's other major nuclear power, the US, had ratified it, it would be more notable.
October 18[edit]
October 18, 2023
(Wednesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
Business and economy
Disasters and accidents
International relations
Law and crime
Politics and elections
Sports
|
RD: Henry Kyemba[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.monitor.co.ug/uganda/news/national/ex-minister-henry-kyemba-dies-at-84-family-4406258
Credits:
- Updated by Jkaharper (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Ugandan politician, minister of health (1974–1977). 65.94.213.53 (talk) 10:29, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
(Closed) Natalee Holloway[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Blurb: Joran van der Sloot confesses to murdering American student Natalee Holloway (pictured) in 2005. (Post)
Alternative blurb: Joran van der Sloot pleads guilty to extortion and wire fraud in the United States and is sentenced to 20 years concurrent with his Peruvian prison term.
News source(s): CNN
Credits:
- Nominated by Presidentman (talk · give credit)
- Updated by SQB (talk · give credit)
- Comment The confessor is the one making news here, his should be the target article and picture. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:21, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Not as a significant/well-known/impacting as a crime like the Zodiac Killer, and in the current landscape of news, this really doesn't cut it. It might have been a long time puzzling case, but also extols the issues of missing white woman syndrome of media bias. --Masem (t) 22:44, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose - well-known case, but to the extent that there is a systemic bias towards western news on ITN, I think this would qualify. A similar story elsewhere would never be proposed as a blurb. --RockstoneSend me a message! 23:22, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose good faith nom. This is basically tabloid news. While undoubtedly important to the family and loved ones of the victim, it has no real significance in the broader world. Suggest this be closed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:26, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. Serial killers are known to lie and say they killed more then they actually did. For all we know, van der Sloot is lying, and even if he isn't, as Masem notes, this is hardly the highest-profile murder. DarkSide830 (talk) 00:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - meets II, III, and IV of WP:ITNPURPOSE; this would a great chance to put a featured article on ITN, for those who aren't aware, it would surely be somewhat of an interesting story, and it would diversify the range of stories included on here. We should not be limiting stories just due to geographical location on its own; hell, if we were to use the rationale frequently used for doing that when it comes to say, mass shootings, that would actually lend more credence to the position of posting, since the reason why this wouldn't be posted if it happened in say, India or Nigeria, is since stuff like this is unfortunately much more common. — Knightoftheswords 00:45, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose as stale, provincial, special interest only, all of which are typically grounds for SNOW closure This post was made by orbitalbuzzsaw gang (talk) 01:28, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per all above. The Kip 02:38, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Prime example of Missing white woman syndrome. We don't post news about most murders going on in the world on ITN. Canuck89 (Gab with me) or visit my user page 02:53, October 19, 2023 (UTC)
- Leaning oppose. The headline here is that a person long-believed to have almost certainly been murdered by a certain person is now known to have been almost certainly been murdered by that certain person. BD2412 T 03:08, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
October 17[edit]
October 17, 2023
(Tuesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
International relations
Law and crime
Politics and elections
|
(Posted) RD: Carla Bley[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NYT
Credits:
- Updated and nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk · give credit)
- Updated by MonarchOfTerror (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Iconic jazz pianist, composer, bandleader, influential in the 1960s, and last recording 2020. So far there was not much to be updated, I replaced 2 dated references for a German Award by a working one. A better lead would be nice, and more text to not have it sandwiched. I'll see what I can do, and help is welcome, especially from someone who can access the NYT obit. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:27, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - nice nom, Gerda. I think it looks good enough to post ✈ mike_gigs talkcontribs 13:11, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - Sure. Well sourced and decent enough. I do not see any problems. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 13:29, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Meets requirements. Ollieisanerd (talk • contribs) 19:10, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Admins willing to post ITN: BangJan1999 19:53, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted The discography section should have some content but it's not a show-stopper. Schwede66 20:28, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
Gaza hospital explosion[edit]
Blurb: Amid the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, an explosion at a hospital in Gaza kills at least 200 people. (Post)
Alternative blurb: In Gaza, at least 200 people are killed in an explosion at a hospital.
Alternative blurb II: At least 200 people are killed in an explosion at a hospital in Gaza.
Alternative blurb III: An explosion transpires at a hospital in Gaza.
News source(s): CNN, Reuters
Credits:
- Nominated by FatCat96 (talk · give credit)
- Created by Super ninja2 (talk · give credit)
FatCat96 (talk) 18:14, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- It is a part of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, but 500 casualties is enough to be on the ITN in my opinion. Thats, just, a lot. Lukt64 (talk) 18:19, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- support Lukt64 (talk) 18:19, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- we didnt post every massacre done by Hamas when they were attacking, we just had a general terrorist attack blurb which then became a war. so why should we put every attack done by Israel when we already have the general war in ongoing? JM2023 (talk) 18:34, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, but this is more deadly than the entire Operation Al-Aqsa Flood. This is a big deal. Lukt64 (talk) 18:43, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- There were roughly 1,100 Israelis killed in the initial wave of attacks; I'm not sure what you mean. The Kip 18:59, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Firstly, this is not more deadly than that; over 1,100 Israelis, including many children, were slaughtered during that attack, and last I heard they were still finding bodies. Secondly, this event did not start a conflict. Thirdly, it's still included in the war. Fourthly, the article now has a POV tag and it's alleged this could be a Hamas rocket blamed on Israel; we should be especially cautious of Hamas and allies considering their massive outbursts of genocidal antisemitism recently. Unless we have a Srebrenica situation of sufficient magnitutde then I'm opposed to adding events like this. JM2023 (talk) 19:39, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, but this is more deadly than the entire Operation Al-Aqsa Flood. This is a big deal. Lukt64 (talk) 18:43, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support publishing it soon, but make sure it is definitively known whoever launched the attack. Most sources are saying that Israel bombed the hospital but there's claims that it was actually caused by PIJ. Either way, the destruction of over 500 lives is unimaginable and as newsworthy as the most horrible losses of life of the 21st century. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 22:46, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose we have ongoing for this reason, and I do not see why we need a separate article for this. --Masem (t) 18:24, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Reiterating my Oppose after 24+ hr, where it is clear that the damage may not have been as extensive as it was previously claimed (due to prior strikes) and that while I know the Pentagon has said it was from Hamas activities, there's still so much unknown, including the death toll, that this should be an aspect of the ongoing war but not a headline we should be trying to feature. --Masem (t) 23:52, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose the entire Israel-Hamas War is covered in Ongoing. Also I noticed this said "massacre" before being changed to "airstrike", good because it would be POV to call it a massacre when the actual article is titled an airstrike. JM2023 (talk) 18:32, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait for several reasons: what's stated above (which is debatable, imo; we blurbed the Bucha massacre, and sometimes casualty count/impact can override the ongoing item),
the fact the article is currently a stub, and most importantly, the fact that for the moment it's Hamas' word versus the Israeli government's, and neither are exactly neutral actors; independent and reputable press verification, if possible, should be sought out before blurbing. The Kip 18:34, 17 October 2023 (UTC)Update: Article is also now orange-tagged for POV, given assertions of responsibility versus reporting from reputable media.The Kip 18:58, 17 October 2023 (UTC)- The Kip, any update on this vote, given that your concerns have mostly been addressed at the article's talk? AryKun (talk) 06:26, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- I’ll strike my NPOV concern and the stub concern, but the responsibility one (which we can’t control) is still existent to a degree. The Kip 15:20, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- The Kip, any update on this vote, given that your concerns have mostly been addressed at the article's talk? AryKun (talk) 06:26, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- While not entirely overruling my original vote, I’m now leaning oppose - besides the still-disputed responsibility, there’s now even considerable doubt as to the actual death toll, with the original claim of 500+ being retracted and estimates ranging from as low as 50 to as high as 470. There’s just too much fog of war to post a blurb with any definitive information, besides “an explosion happened that killed some people.” The Kip 16:38, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait. If it is an airstrike on the hospital and the purported death toll is as sources are reporting, it is certainly blurbable regardless of the ongoing status. Black Kite (talk) 18:36, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Terrible tragedy but this sort of thing happens in war and the war has been posted in ongoing. On a side note we don't have a lot of hard facts from reliable sources. The numbers being quoted are almost entirely coming from Hamas or affiliated entities, none of which would pass WP:RS. I don't doubt that something dreadful has happened, but it is likely to be sometime before we get details from sources that can be trusted. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:39, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
Wait (leaning oppose) for reasons mentioned above. Covered in ongoing and it's not entirely clear who is responsible at the moment. This tragedy just happened and there are already unverified reports that it may have been a failed Hamas rocket (which is, imho, no more reliable than Hamas officials reporting it was an Israeli airstrike).Kcmastrpc (talk) 18:40, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Strong Support for alt-blurb. Given the significance of media coverage and resulting events this is very much ITN-worthy. It's not even clear what the death count is at the moment, however, that's secondary to the tertiary events that unfolded immediately after the incident which are still unfolding. Kcmastrpc (talk) 12:33, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support as per Lukt64, this is a big number. ☆SuperNinja2☆ 18:42, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - we posted the Bucha massacre, which saw similar body counts, and although it may be accounted via ongoing, there are always certain stories such as the Crimean bridge explosion and the like that are unique/major enough to warrant a blurb, regardless if the parent article is in ongoing. I would wait for more sources to come out and for the article to be expanded however. — Knightoftheswords 18:42, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- seems the Bucha rationale is now moot due to Israeli and US intelligence findings. JM2023 (talk) 08:47, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - HUGE incident, despite the war being in ongoing already, this war crime against humanity deserves a blurb CR-1-AB (talk) 19:11, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- We don't even know who did it yet. Some now allege it was a Hamas rocket. You shouldn't jump to conclusions and call it a crime against humanity to support significance. Also "war crimes" and "crimes against humanity" exist but not "war crimes against humanity". JM2023 (talk) 19:57, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - The scale of this atrocity makes it important to include. 2001:569:57B2:4D00:84CE:346A:7D23:D4F5 (talk) 19:13, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - we posted the Bucha massacre, which saw similar body counts, and although it may be accounted via ongoing, there are always certain stories such as the Crimean bridge explosion and the like that are unique/major enough to warrant a blurb, regardless if the parent article is in ongoing. I would wait for more sources to come out and for the article to be expanded however. — Knightoftheswords 18:42, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait: Initial reports of casualties and perpetrator are still uncertain. ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 19:14, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait The real authorship of this execrable massacre is not confirmed by the RS sources, which only include the communiqué of the Palestinian Ministry of Health. I don't think it’s comparable to the Bucha massacre either in a war context, nor in an operational or significant context. _-_Alsor (talk) 19:56, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Exactly, however unfortunate it may be, lines have often been drawn by nations between the civilian bombing campaigns of total war and the personal door-to-door massacres of genocidal actors. And no wars are being started over this. JM2023 (talk) 20:02, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- You’re totally right. _-_Alsor (talk) 20:15, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Exactly, however unfortunate it may be, lines have often been drawn by nations between the civilian bombing campaigns of total war and the personal door-to-door massacres of genocidal actors. And no wars are being started over this. JM2023 (talk) 20:02, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - Truly shocking to read, RIP to all those poor people - a war crime and a crime against humanity. Similar has also been posted relating to the Russo-Ukraine war. AnthonyIreland 19:54, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- do you have additional comments now that it has come out that both US and Israeli intelligence indicates with strong likelihood that it was a Palestinian missile? JM2023 (talk) 08:46, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment Israel is now formally denying responsibility. They are claiming that the Palestinians blew up the hospital, probably by accident, while using it as a launch site for their own missiles aimed at Israel's civilian population centers. I reaffirm my oppose. But if this is posted, the currently written blurb assigning blame to Israel cannot be used. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:01, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Russians denyed the Bucha massacre but that wasn't enough for it not to be included in ITN section at the time. ☆SuperNinja2☆ 20:31, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Israel is probably more credible than Russia. Bucha's responsibility probably had more sources than Hamas press releases. JM2023 (talk) 21:01, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think so. Israelies have long long records of violating human rights records and using internationally prohibited weapons like white phosphorus and lying. So it's definitely not "more credible" than Russia. ☆SuperNinja2☆ 10:21, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- In a competition between Hamas and Israel in terms of human right violations and lying, I think I choose Israel as the more credible source. For various obvious reasons. Also those sources are pretty one-sided, ignoring Palestinian actions. You have to look at the two sides of the war if it's a credibility contest. A few examples of various allegations is not systematic enough of an analysis to show Israel lies on the level of Russia. JM2023 (talk) 16:19, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think so. Israelies have long long records of violating human rights records and using internationally prohibited weapons like white phosphorus and lying. So it's definitely not "more credible" than Russia. ☆SuperNinja2☆ 10:21, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- The Bucha massacre has been independently investigated by international authorities who have formally accused Russia of the atrocity. I think there is a pretty strong consensus within the community that both Hamas and the Russian government are not reliable sources on any matter of controversy. To be sure the Israelis are not saints. But when they have screwed up in the past, they have typically owned their mistakes. Ad Orientem (talk) 21:24, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- No, they never had. Drop it already. ☆SuperNinja2☆ 11:46, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- One example is not enough. JM2023 (talk) 16:37, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- They mean when they screw up in their press releases and stuff, not human rights which is pretty much universally known Aaron Liu (talk) 16:39, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- No, they never had. Drop it already. ☆SuperNinja2☆ 11:46, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Israel is probably more credible than Russia. Bucha's responsibility probably had more sources than Hamas press releases. JM2023 (talk) 21:01, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Russians denyed the Bucha massacre but that wasn't enough for it not to be included in ITN section at the time. ☆SuperNinja2☆ 20:31, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- even besides the POV issue, the currently written blurb also has several typographic errors ("israel airstrike" instead of "an Israeli airstrike") JM2023 (talk) 20:04, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment In conjunction with the disputed responsibility and NPOV edits on the article, I've proposed a more neutral altblurb for now The Kip 20:04, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. Covered in ongoing. Kirill C1 (talk) 20:08, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Respectful oppose Part of the reason for having an ongoing section is to avoid the inevitable tit-for-tat "we posted this attack so why can't we post that attack". Bucha was by far the exception rather than the norm. Curbon7 (talk) 20:29, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- In my view for ITN purposes, where this differs from Bucha is that this strike was directly part of the war covered by ongoing, whereas Bucha was not. Curbon7 (talk) 07:37, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support per KoTS. Not sure how Bucha clears our bar but this doesn't. DarkSide830 (talk) 21:20, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Bucha was a personal purposeful massacre by an enemy country invading another -- this, according to US intelligence, was a Palestinian failure. totally different. JM2023 (talk) 08:44, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support It's an ongoing event and it's worthy of coverage in international news. Rager7 (talk) 21:41, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support per above. Death toll is comparable to the Bucha massacre which we posted. Very notable event no matter who perpetrated it (The Guardian says the explosion was too large to have been Hamas), though it's probably best to wait and see if there will be more clarity on that in the coming days. Davey2116 (talk) 21:41, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- While people may compare the death toll, the significance in terms of what the event actually was is not comparable (not to imply that you did so). Bucha featured indiscriminate shooting of civilians and torture-murders of civilians including minors. There is a meaningful difference of significance. JM2023 (talk) 22:18, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Death toll is significant, and the explosion has recent a noteworthy amount of attention as a standalone event despite it being part of the 2023 Israel-Hamas War. TheInevitables (talk) 22:47, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment (partial support). While the attack is covered in the main article, this is shocking and the death toll is very high (per nom), but the attacker is still unknown. Also, I would support the alt blurb per WP:NPOV, as the original blurb says that Israel launched the airstrike, which is currently disputed. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 23:23, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support posting, but Strong Oppose attributing the attack to anyone until we know more. The first suggested blurb inappropriately assigns blame. --RockstoneSend me a message! 23:23, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose - First and foremost, because several pivotal info and still unknown. Who is responsible for the attack? How many people really died? We need to be responsible here, to avoid becoming a misinformation tool. We are not a news ticker, so why the rush? Let's wait until things get clear and then discuss if this is newsworthy.--Kacamata! Dimmi!!! 23:26, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose The details of the incident are disputed and we have the overall war as an ongoing entry. Note that this is a contentious topic and so we are required to "err on the side of caution". Andrew🐉(talk) 23:27, 17 October 2023 (UTC) (edit conflict)
- Comment - I would like to make it clear that I wrote the blurb when the blame was being put on Israel, and that I will not be voicing my opinion on who is wright or who is wrong in the ongoing conflict. FatCat96 (talk) 23:51, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- I would suggest you should modify the original blurb. --RockstoneSend me a message! 23:53, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Will do. FatCat96 (talk) 23:55, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support one of the altblurbs. While there is still some confusion about the cause of the explosion (though it seems highly unlikely that a Palestinian rocket could do such damage), the high death toll, the singular nature of the event, and the location being a hospital pushes it above the threshold to get something that is usually covered by an ongoing item into a new blurb. This is similar to how the Bucha massacre, which had a similar reported death toll was blurbed despite it being covered by an ongoing entry. For comparison and, while not covered by an ongoing item, the 2015 Kunduz hospital airstrike was blurbed with around 40 deaths. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 03:15, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose For the same reason I opposed most Ukraine-Russia proposals: covered by ongoing. The rationale of a massacre is not without ground but unless an actor can be definitively attributed for this I remain opposed. Gotitbro (talk) 03:37, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait until the party actually responsible for the airstrike is confirmed. After that, consider my vote as a weak support. S5A-0043Talk 03:39, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support the main blurb. Since our blurb doesn't assign responsibility to anyone, I don't see why we need to wait to ascertain the party responsible. Likewise, the casualties have been widely reported[18][19].VR talk 06:14, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Because the determination of the responsible party changes the nature from being a mistaken explosion (Israel claim) to a massacre (Hamas claim). Gotitbro (talk) 10:11, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support war crime with immense death toll regardless of who did it; also, we are probably not going to get immediate clarity on the perpetrator as we did in Bucha, because Bucha wasn't being blockaded and carpet-bombed and thus had independent investigators who could go there. We did mention the hundreds dead from Hamas' attacks in the original blurb; the reason we didn't blurb each massacre separately is the same reason why we wouldn't blurb 5 different hospitals getting bombed individually. AryKun (talk) 06:25, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose - Issues with the article and the unknown nature of the attack makes it difficult to make a case to blurb. If the resulting fallout of this is significant enough then I would consider Supporting. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 06:52, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support but wait. Number of casualties is unclear, but the event on itself is significant enough, with multiple world leaders commenting on it, and it is all over the news. Blurb will probably need to be modified. AdrianHObradors (talk) 09:32, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Changing to support. Still think the blurb needs to be changed.
kills at least 200 people
might be incorrect. — AdrianHObradors (talk) 09:29, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Changing to support. Still think the blurb needs to be changed.
- Oppose, unless we can say who was responsible, in which case Support. If we can't, then we need to include the broader context to avoid NPOV issues from readers making assumptions, similar to WP:CATPOV, and there isn't space for such broader context. BilledMammal (talk) 09:37, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah if the perpretrator of the attack is found then I would Support PrecariousWorlds (talk) 10:46, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support per nom Abo Yemen✉ 11:48, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait per Gotitbro. A combination of this being covered by ongoing and also not knowing who perpetrated the attack. If there is definitive evidence on who is responsible, I'd be willing to rethink ✈ mike_gigs talkcontribs 12:07, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait, likely a couple days, as preliminary investigations are still ongoing, both on the perpetrator and the death toll. Then, support. I revoke my earlier stance. — Melofors TC 16:02, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose, covered by ongoing whoeveer turns out to have done it QueensanditsCrazy (talk) 18:08, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- It’s a very significant event even outside of the ongoing. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:12, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- It does not matter who did, for the news sake. The blurb is silent in this term. --Mhhossein talk 20:26, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support the main blurb. It's a significant event and made a huge amount of reactions worldwide. The article is also ready for this. Certainly newsworthy. --Mhhossein talk 20:28, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Big thing indeed, but Covered by Ongoing, just like the siege and next big thing. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:42, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support per Bucha precedent as discussed above This post was made by orbitalbuzzsaw gang (talk) 03:47, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Bucha was well-established as being a Russian perpetration; Israeli and US intelligence say its much more likely a Palestinian action, not an Israeli one. This may change your conclusion. JM2023 (talk) 08:50, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- I don’t see how the fact that Bucha was perpetrated by Russia changes much Aaron Liu (talk) 12:20, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Because Russia was the invading country and Bucha was perpetrated against Ukrainian citizens on purpose, while Palestine apparently accidentally bombed its own citizens. That probably makes a significant difference. It's not that Bucha was specifically Russia or that this was specifically Palestine, it's that Bucha was against foreign citizens on purpose by an invading country whereas this was against one's own citizens apparently by accident and domestically. JM2023 (talk) 20:01, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- I don’t see how the fact that Bucha was perpetrated by Russia changes much Aaron Liu (talk) 12:20, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Bucha was well-established as being a Russian perpetration; Israeli and US intelligence say its much more likely a Palestinian action, not an Israeli one. This may change your conclusion. JM2023 (talk) 08:50, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support This is likely to further erode Israel's ties with the Arab world. Synotia (moan) 08:09, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Why? US and Israeli intelligence strongly indicates it was a Palestinian bombing. JM2023 (talk) 20:02, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Palestine still trusts Palestine info, but on the other hand, well... Aaron Liu (talk) 20:04, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- I don't understand, could you elaborate? JM2023 (talk) 20:06, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Palestine is kinda part of the Arab world. I'm not sure if the Arab world trusts Palestine information, but maybe that's what Synotia meant. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:25, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- You're right, based on the observed pro-Palestine and pro-Hamas protests across the Arab world and even the Western world, it's an indication that the Arab world may stick to the Palestinian (very likely false) narrative and thus compromise Arab-Israeli relations. I'm not sure if that gives significance to the explosion itself. JM2023 (talk) 20:30, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Palestine is kinda part of the Arab world. I'm not sure if the Arab world trusts Palestine information, but maybe that's what Synotia meant. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:25, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- I don't understand, could you elaborate? JM2023 (talk) 20:06, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Palestine still trusts Palestine info, but on the other hand, well... Aaron Liu (talk) 20:04, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Why? US and Israeli intelligence strongly indicates it was a Palestinian bombing. JM2023 (talk) 20:02, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support: Doesn't matter if we know who did it or not. The topic and article is sufficient enough to appear on ITN. Prodrummer619 (talk) 10:11, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Covered in ongoing; I'd caution against posting individual attacks - we'll enter a never-ending cycle of "we posted that so we should post this" Schwinnspeed (talk) 13:11, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per Kip. The large death count that previously established this event's separation from the ongoing is now in serious doubt. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:50, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Significant event within the context of the war, regardless of the several points of view regarding the facts. I'm also sure this won't get posted, so take this as a moral support. Bedivere (talk) 16:51, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- What would your claim to this event's significance be? Aaron Liu (talk) 16:59, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- At least one hundred (as per the lowest figure presented by reputable sources) people died. How can that not be significant by any standards? Bedivere (talk) 05:47, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- This is a war, just 100 is not enough to put outside ongoing, not to mention the lowest estimate is 50 from the credible CNA (nonprofit) and the DNI also gave an upwards estimate of 300 Aaron Liu (talk) 12:17, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- At least one hundred (as per the lowest figure presented by reputable sources) people died. How can that not be significant by any standards? Bedivere (talk) 05:47, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- What would your claim to this event's significance be? Aaron Liu (talk) 16:59, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support as this incident is being widely covered in the international media. Pirate of the High Seas (talk) 06:07, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support even as a controversey, this event has a sufficiently-wide coverage that it is not far less significant than the initial Hamas attack (nor is the deathtoll that different). Per Bucha Massacre above - for those who respond that this isn't covered by the same level of WP:RS, you can't expect it to. The conditions are different: not every war has the 'luxury' of a conflict in Europe, but certainly the amount of coverage is comparable to say the least --Abbad (talk) 09:19, 21 October 2023 (UTC).
it is not far less significant than the initial Hamas attack (nor is the deathtoll that different)
that is entirely untrue. The Hamas attack was a terrorist attack where Hamas terrorists slaughtered thousands of Israelis in their own communities, including the beheading and burning of children in their homes, on the basis that they were Jewish. The death toll is far over 1000. This was a hospital bombing with most likely Palestinian blame and is likely an accident, and current estimates are as low as only 50 deaths. 20 times the number were personally killed in the initial terrorist attack by Hamas.- Also
Per Bucha Massacre above
as has been noted, the Bucha massacre was perpetrated by Russian invading soldiers on the ground against Ukranian civilians and involved torture murders of minors; this was a hospital bombing of likely Palestinian blame and may very well be an accident. JM2023 (talk) 17:58, 22 October 2023 (UTC)- I thought the beheading of children reports had been dismissed as propaganda. Is there any evidence of this? We shouldn't be spreading propaganda by either side. Nfitz (talk) 22:46, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- Not according to the Independent or the Telegraph. JM2023 (talk) 03:05, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- That's almost 2 weeks old, before the anti-Palestinian propaganda had been fact-checked. Why would you post such horrific prejudice User:JM2023? Nfitz (talk) 00:00, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- I think you might want to also post the fact checks in question that proved the claims wrong, it's very probably that they simply do not know about the timeline rather than posted in bad faith. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:27, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- That's they'd double down after being politely called out, and then needing to use 2-week old references to make the point, suggests that at a minimum, it's very careless. Especially considering the considerable reporting about this propaganda in the media - over a week ago! a, b, c. Nfitz (talk) 02:12, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- It's now horrific prejudice to repeat reliable sources telling us that literal terrorists committed terrorist acts like beheading and burning children. You're saying I'm prejudiced against antisemitic genocidal terrorists? By the way, it's not been shown to be "propaganda" and it's not like this would be the first time children are beheaded and burned in an attack. Israeli investigators continue to announce such events. What has been questioned was a report by an Israeli journalist interviewing soldiers who said babies were killed; social media users conflated that with babies being beheaded. And anyway, It's uncalled for to call my statement "horrific propaganda" even if it wasn't true, since "burned and beheaded" is a small difference from "brutally butchered in an ISIS fashion" and "burned alive". The difference there would not be "horrific propaganda"; what is horrific is the evident brutal murders of children by Gaza terrorists. JM2023 (talk) 07:56, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Nfitz’s second link is a news source that directly claims that the beheading was false using reason that there has been no evidence, while I’m unsure about the Washington post one as I do not have access. It doesn’t disprove it, but it’s very in doubt.There are genociders and terrorism on both sides of the war. While it is no excuse, you cannot unilaterally confirm any side’s press releases until a secondary source has agreed.Also, both of the links you provided in your “Not according…” comment only said killed and not beheaded. The politifact article you sent was on the exact same story as your provided ones, the one repeated by US and Israeli officials. It’s not just social media users and I don’t see how you could arrive to this conclusion after reading these articles. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:14, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- I think you might want to also post the fact checks in question that proved the claims wrong, it's very probably that they simply do not know about the timeline rather than posted in bad faith. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:27, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- That's almost 2 weeks old, before the anti-Palestinian propaganda had been fact-checked. Why would you post such horrific prejudice User:JM2023? Nfitz (talk) 00:00, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Not according to the Independent or the Telegraph. JM2023 (talk) 03:05, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- I thought the beheading of children reports had been dismissed as propaganda. Is there any evidence of this? We shouldn't be spreading propaganda by either side. Nfitz (talk) 22:46, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose There is too much uncertainty about the event, with some reports the death toll was as low as 50. Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:57, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Those "some reports" are individual analysis based on photos and videos available online and elsewhere, which are not comparable to official reports. --Mhhossein talk 19:08, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Hmm, the figure used to be misattributed to the center of naval analysis. There is still a sourced claim about an European official who reported the same figure. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:31, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Blake Spendley is also still sourced. Blake Spendley is an intelligence operative at the CNA, which may be why it was also sourced to CNA (i.e., considering that person to be speaking for their organization). JM2023 (talk) 08:04, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- That falls under
individual analysis based on photos and videos available online and elsewhere
, it’s what open-source analysis means. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:51, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- That falls under
- Blake Spendley is also still sourced. Blake Spendley is an intelligence operative at the CNA, which may be why it was also sourced to CNA (i.e., considering that person to be speaking for their organization). JM2023 (talk) 08:04, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
- Hmm, the figure used to be misattributed to the center of naval analysis. There is still a sourced claim about an European official who reported the same figure. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:31, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Those "some reports" are individual analysis based on photos and videos available online and elsewhere, which are not comparable to official reports. --Mhhossein talk 19:08, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Per masem. We have ongoing for a reason. Uneasy about the use of casualty figures when there is a war on. And Palestinian rockets hit Gaza all the time. This article would make a good poster child for the perils of current news reporting on Wikipedia; the signal to noise ratio is very low indeed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:40, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
Same-sex marriage in India[edit]
Blurb: Supreme Court of India rules that right to marriage is not fundamental (Post)
Alternative blurb: The Supreme Court of India rules that same-sex marriage is not protected by Indian law.
Alternative blurb II: The Supreme Court of India rules that the legality of same-sex marriage can only be decided by parliament.
News source(s): BBC The Indian Express NDTV Aljazeera
Credits:
- Nominated by PrinceofPunjab (talk · give credit)
Nominator's comments: Quite a significant news story which is getting international coverage. PrinceofPunjab (talk) 13:46, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait - article has not yet been updated with the case ruling ✈ mike_gigs talkcontribs 14:01, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose The court found that it didn't have the power to change the various pieces of legislation and so that was a matter for legislators. So the status quo continues and there's no significant change. Andrew🐉(talk) 14:46, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment Added altblurb. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 15:10, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment Didn't we just reject a story about the legal status of same-sex marriage in another country? 98.170.164.88 (talk) 16:00, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, Mauritius SSM was rejected because not only was the blurb outright false, it wasn't a major first in anything, so it didnt meet notability benchmarks. JM2023 (talk) 16:39, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- It wasn't even SSM in Mauritus - it was the legalization of same-sex sexual relations, which had already been legalized in I believe at least nine African countries (not even counting those where it wasn't illegal in the first place). The Kip 18:27, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, Mauritius SSM was rejected because not only was the blurb outright false, it wasn't a major first in anything, so it didnt meet notability benchmarks. JM2023 (talk) 16:39, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose we just rejected Mauritius SSM because it wasn't a major first in anything. This is even less notable -- court decides to do nothing about it and tells politicians to do something instead. Not significant enough. Also the original blurb has multiple grammatical errors (at least 3 at first glance). JM2023 (talk) 16:38, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment
- Understandable proposal, considering that India has over a billion people in it.
- But, mauritius Lukt64 (talk) 18:08, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support upon improvements With having the first or second largest population, this is a significant effect. Even if maintains the status quo or not the first such country to deny rights, its large enough to be a major concern overall. --Masem (t) 18:26, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Is it even "denying rights" though? seems like its just the court going "this right does not exist in the constitution". i.e. the right was denied by whoever wrote the constitution, and will be denied by parliament if it votes down a law. JM2023 (talk) 18:29, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Arguably yes, but I think that at a broad scale, denying equality in things like marriage and other rights to same sex couples (as well as other things broadly under the LGBTQ+ banner) is seen as an issue, comparable with the lack of women's rights in Middle Eastern countries, for example. and while the Court did say that the gov't should review policies to assure that while they can't grant marriages they can grant other benefits to same-sex couples, the articles I've read imply that this current Indian gov't is very much unlikely to follow those recommendations.
- I would compare this to last year's Dobbs decision from the US SC that remove abortion rights, which also claimed it wasn't in the Constitution. Masem (t) 00:23, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- But that overturned a prior decision. This is what I'm trying to get at. Was SSM a constitutional right in India before this decision, the same way abortion was in the US before Dobbs? It doesn't seem notable or significant to me if not. Like if the King of the KSA was asked and said "women actually need to be subject to these laws" but its just re-affirming something that is already the case, that is not significant. JM2023 (talk) 01:15, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Is it even "denying rights" though? seems like its just the court going "this right does not exist in the constitution". i.e. the right was denied by whoever wrote the constitution, and will be denied by parliament if it votes down a law. JM2023 (talk) 18:29, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Very weak support I can be convinced to flip my vote, but on first glance, although it doesn't change the status quo, it's the largest or second-largest nation on the planet - as such, the decision has at least some notable impact. The Kip 18:28, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose The ruling right-wing government is anti-same-sex marriage and this is obviously not going to change that. May have been blurbable had the outcome been the opposite. Black Kite (talk) 18:38, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Every time SSM is legalized it is almost invariably nominated here, and I have generally opposed over the last few years as these events have become routine. This is a fairly unusual case of the supreme court in the world's most populous democracy saying no. It is both unexpected and frankly newsworthy just by virtue of its defying the global trend in democratic societies. -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:45, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support mostly per Ad Orientem. It's considered commonplace for a nation to legalize same-sex marriage and this is unusual in that it's a more anachronistic ruling. Also, it's one of the most populous and thus most influential nations, so any ruling about same-sex marriage is therefore important. Sincerely, Novo Tape (She/Her)My Talk Page 19:34, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- I wonder about that. Was SSM previously recognized by the indian SC as a fundamental right? Did this overturn a previous SC case that recognized SSM? If not, then there is nothing significant here. If another abortion case came to the SCOTUS and they ruled in a way that didn't overturn any of their prior major abortion decisions, that would not be significant. If the SC is just telling us what's in the Indian constitution without contradicting a previous decision of itself, that seems like it's not significant. What may be significant is if the Parliament of India passed a law banning SSM. JM2023 (talk) 19:55, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- In my view it's important for two reasons:
- It confirms the SC can merely interpret laws. If the SCOTUS were to pass a ruling reaffirming, for example, judicial review in the United States, I'd consider that significant, even it's merely supporting the status quo.
- The government will, if nothing else, set up a panel to consider LGBTIA+ rights. Sincerely, Novo Tape (She/Her)My Talk Page 18:28, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- In my view it's important for two reasons:
- I wonder about that. Was SSM previously recognized by the indian SC as a fundamental right? Did this overturn a previous SC case that recognized SSM? If not, then there is nothing significant here. If another abortion case came to the SCOTUS and they ruled in a way that didn't overturn any of their prior major abortion decisions, that would not be significant. If the SC is just telling us what's in the Indian constitution without contradicting a previous decision of itself, that seems like it's not significant. What may be significant is if the Parliament of India passed a law banning SSM. JM2023 (talk) 19:55, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose This decision merely maintains the status quo and doesn't change much. TheInevitables (talk) 22:49, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose - this decision doesn't change anything. If India legalizes gay marriage, I will support it. --RockstoneSend me a message! 23:27, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose – Per above, nothing changes. I would support if it was legalized, but the status quo doesn't seem newsworthy to me here. DecafPotato (talk) 03:42, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per Andrew. They simply ruled that they did not have the right to dictate this. Though IMO if the legislature went against it then we should post that. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:58, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - Agree with Masem, the size of the population, and therefore subsequent coverage makes this notable and ITN-worthy. Schwinnspeed (talk) 16:15, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support per Ad Orientem; SSM cases have become more prevalent in recent years, however, its rare to see one that rejects the move. Opposing just because "the status quo" would be like not posting a re-election because it's technically the "status quo;" it will still have major ramifications in the years to come. — Knightoftheswords 00:50, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- It is not a rejection, it boils down to "this does not fall under our jurisdiction as it is not mentioned in the constitution". You wouldn't like any supreme court to create a new rule that has no mention at all in the existing laws and articles. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:52, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- The original blurb also said that they found that no kind of marriage was under their jurisdiction.
The court instead accepted the government's offer to set up a panel to consider granting more legal rights and benefits to same-sex couples.
I've created alt-blurb II, though I doubt many people would see it and I do not support this being ITN. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:14, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support per consensus that SSM legalization is functionally ITN/R; I see no reason the negative not be the case, especially given the populations affected This post was made by orbitalbuzzsaw gang (talk) 03:48, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- It’s not a rejection, it’s an “in-progress”. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:34, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Can you point to this consensus anywhere? -- Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:09, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose This isn't a change in law, nor is a change in law being blocked. This is merely a clarification. This is far too trivial to post & I'm baffled at the length of this discussion. It shouldn't even have been nominated. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 18:40, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose To me, the story would have been if it had been legalized. "Not our jurisdiction" doesn't seem noteworthy.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:09, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
(Closed) Ongoing removal: Russian invasion of Ukraine[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: We have just removed the Sudan war despite the fact that the war was not over. This should also be removed. While the timeline section is being updated, it is more minor events rather than anything major. Interstellarity (talk) 13:30, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose
- This isnt a civil war, its a war between the 2 largest nations in Europe. Its a bigger deal, at least geopolitically, than any African wars for now. Lukt64 (talk) 13:35, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Strong oppose & WP:SNOW close Here we go again. This war is still ongoing and raging on. Battles around Avdiivka have intensified greatly. We had this exact discussion a few months ago. TwistedAxe [contact] 13:57, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose - article is still being updated and war is still very much going on ✈ mike_gigs talkcontribs 14:02, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose there is still news coverage near daily of events in this conflict, in contrast to far less significant coverage of events in the Sudan one. --Masem (t) 14:06, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Eric Tweedale[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [20]
Credits:
- Nominated by The C of E (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Normantas Bataitis (talk · give credit) and The C of E (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Australian centenarian and formerly the oldest Australia national rugby union team player The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 09:42, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - well cited ✈ mike_gigs talkcontribs 13:52, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support. Per above. Article looks decent enough. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 14:33, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Stephen 08:59, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
RD: Tim Wallis[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/10/17/warbirds-over-wanaka-founder-sir-tim-wallis-dies-aged-85/
Credits:
- Updated by Zyates87 (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: New Zealand aviator and pioneer of the live deer recovery. 65.94.213.53 (talk) 09:31, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. Needs more citations as several sections in the article are unsourced. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 14:35, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
October 16[edit]
October 16, 2023
(Monday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
International relations
Law and crime
Politics and elections
Sports
|
(Posted) RD: Carmen Petra Basacopol[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Radio Romania
Credits:
- Updated and nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Dahn (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Romanian woman composer, with a PhD from the Sorbonne, and having taught in Rabat also. If she had been a man from the U.S. I would have dropped the topic as too late, but she is a minority and deserves being mentioned, I believe. News of her death came around on 16 October, but I only noticed the following day, and had no time to look closer until now, sorry. I had no time to translate the Romanian obits, yet, and now comes RL. Help? Dahn perhaps? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:37, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you, Dahn, I added you as updater. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:43, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- We added detail and references, please check. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:07, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: Discography/works mostly unreferenced (the 4 I spot checked were not under the overarching reference). SpencerT•C 15:13, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- All work are referenced on top of the section, just above the table. (A few works have additional information, and then also additional ref.) - Will check for the recordings. I thought that these numbers - like ISBN - are an indication they exist. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:49, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- I reworked the recordings. I used one ref that I'd not normally use because it has a precise year (1983) where the other ref for the same recording has only "1980s". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:23, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Stephen 20:47, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Geri M. Joseph[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.hhh.umn.edu/news/remembering-geri-joseph-trailblazing-leader-and-humphrey-school-fellow
Credits:
- Updated by Star Garnet (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: American journalist, Ambassador to the Netherlands, 1978 - 1981. 65.94.213.53 (talk) 20:00, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Hatto Beyerle[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Strad
Credits:
- Updated and nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk · give credit)
- Created by LouisAlain (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Violist, founding member of Alban Berg Quartet, academic teacher in Vienna, Hanover and Basel. Article was basically there, but without reference. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:43, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Roland Griffiths[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NYT
Credits:
- Updated and nominated by Muboshgu (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Sunshineisles2 (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
– Muboshgu (talk) 18:19, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Article is a bit short but it's sufficient for RD. Scientia potentia est, MonarchOfTerror 19:50, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted. --PFHLai (talk) 07:59, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
(Attention Needed for Blurb discussion) (Posted as RD) RD/blurb: Martti Ahtisaari[edit]
Recent deaths nomination
Blurb: Former President of Finland and Nobel Peace Prize laureate Martti Ahtisaari (pictured) dies at the age of 86. (Post)
News source(s): Le Monde, Presidential Twitter
Credits:
- Nominated by 4iamking (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Alsoriano97 (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: President of Finland 1994-2000, 2008 Nobel Peace Prize laureate. ✨ 4 🧚♂am KING 08:26, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Blurb Head of state and Nobel laureate who seems comparable with Jimmy Carter. As an Elder, he seems to meet Mandela standard. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:12, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Not ready There are some paragraphs with no references. The article also lacks citations for most of the awards and honours. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 09:57, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb I don't believe in the legitimacy of a Nobel Peace Prize awarded to someone who once said "Belgrade will be just like this tabletop. We'll start the bombing of Belgrade immediately.", so it's definitely not a factor of notability in this case. Apart from it, he was just a mediocre Finnish president, not comparable in any way to Urho Kekkonen.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 11:52, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- The authenticity of that quote seems debatable. Be that as it may, the person on the other side of the table was Slobodan Milošević and ITN blurbed his death. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:59, 16 October 2023 (UTC) (edit conflict)
- Milošević on the other side of the table is not a justification for a threat involving destruction. That’s not the language one should expect from a Nobel Peace Prize laureate.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 13:39, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- The authenticity of that quote seems debatable. Be that as it may, the person on the other side of the table was Slobodan Milošević and ITN blurbed his death. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:59, 16 October 2023 (UTC) (edit conflict)
- Support RD pending improvements as noted by IP. Neutral on blurb. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 12:57, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb even after looking at WP:ITNRDBLURB and judging based on those guidelines, this is still not a notable enough death in my opinion. JM2023 (talk) 14:44, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
Oppose on quality Article needs some sourcing.Support blurb Article in good shape, he's a Nobel laureate and former head of state. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 15:35, 16 October 2023 (UTC)Oppose blurb after BangJan1999 hatted my previous vote and the ensuing discussion.The reasons are as follows. Firstly, his death has close-to-no coverage in the English-language media (for instance, the BBC has not even published a news article that he died by the time of writing this post). It seems like his death isn’t even a major news in Finland, judging by the English-language content published by the Finnish media. Secondly, he was just a mediocre Finnish president, who cannot be compared in virtually any way to his predecessors Paasikivi and Kekkonen. Thirdly, the Nobel Peace Prize like the Nobel Prize in Literature is too controversial and politicised to be considered a notable achievement that qualifies someone for a blurb (almost a half of Nobel Peace Prize is about criticism of the award).--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 16:32, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- I heard a BBC bulletin about this myself on the Six O'Clock News today. And it's easy to find coverage in other major media including Guardian, NYT, Al Jazeera, Helsinki Times and many more. All such coverage seems quite respectful and so KS's repeated objections seem to be false or fringe. Andrew🐉(talk) 22:36, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- I think "false" and "fringe" are strong words for something that you don't agree with. What you're referring to is a minor coverage that prevents us from going beyond a one-sentence update on his death. Just for comparison, the deaths of Italy's Berlusconi and Napolitano, which got a blurb earlier this year, are documented in stand-alone articles (see Death and state funeral of Silvio Berlusconi and Death and state funeral of Giorgio Napolitano), and the Italian government even declared a national day of mourning for each of them. That's clearly not the case with Ahtisaari.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 11:25, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
false and fringe
- Must we remind you again that ITN’s procedures, voting, etc are governed by consensus and reason, rather than what Andrew Davidson feels they should be? Shame on you, yet again. The Kip 14:27, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose on quality due to uncited material. Weak oppose blurb due to some of the concerns expressed by Kiril above. The Kip 16:50, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- This has, at best, a single-sentence update that wouldn't be redundant to the blurb: the 2021 Alzheimer's/retirement announcement. Without an announcement of the cause of death (at least not that I've found in English sources; I haven't attempted machine translation from Finnish ones), its relevance is debatable - I mean, we can guess that he died of complications of Alzheimer's, and our article as it stands implies it, but we don't know that. And we really can't post a blurb saying "Ahtisaari died at 86", linking to an article that doesn't say anything more about it than "On 16 October 2023, it was announced that Ahtisaari had died at the age of 86." Oppose blurb, insufficient update. —Cryptic 17:11, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support blurb. Nobel prize winner, former head of state. We blurbed Gorbachev and Jiang Zemin. Kirill C1 (talk) 20:12, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
support blurb very notable figure in modern european political history and also (former) head of state. One may add the former head of state of the newest nato state and a busybody around said affairs leading up to it. (not being a tinfoil hat)37.252.95.226 (talk) 08:20, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support RD, oppose blurb - the death was not notable enough, per my interpretation of WP:ITNRDBLURB, and some of Kiril's argument above ✈ mike_gigs talkcontribs 14:05, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- I still don't think it's ready to be posted on RD. For example, there are only three inline references in the long section on "Youth and early career", and the last paragraph in that section is completely uncited. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 22:23, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb - I haven't seen any news of his death on my diversified newsfeed or even ever heard of him except here. Pirate of the High Seas (talk) 02:39, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support blurb on principle, weak oppose on quality we've been blurbing a lot of heads of state deaths as of late, and we've probably blurbed too many, but this is the wrong place to start. How many heads of state have won a Nobel Peace Prize? That demonstrates the regional and international impact we look for when blurbing heads of state of minor nations. As such, I see this as a clear and obvious blurb. However, there's a few paragraphs that are uncited. I don't see that as a huge barrier because it's the least important stuff in the article that are uncited, but that should probably be taken care of before posting. NorthernFalcon (talk) 07:08, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support on quality Article quality improved; good work. NorthernFalcon (talk) 21:41, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb - Not notable enough IMO. Relatively little coverage. Nigej (talk) 19:02, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- COMMENT I've been working on Ahtisaari's article and I think it's ready to be posted at least in RD, as there is no clear consensus for a blurb. Please take a look at it, on quality issues: @NorthernFalcon: @Pirate of the High Seas: @Кирилл С1: @The Kip: @Кирилл С1: @Cryptic: @TDKR Chicago 101: @Presidentman: @Kiril Simeonovski: @Nigej:. _-_Alsor (talk) 21:26, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- References look much better. I think this is ready to go. Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 21:33, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Stephen 22:03, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support blurb Nobel Peace Prize-winning head of state. I'm positive we'll blurb Carter, we blurbed Mandela, de Klerk, Shimon Peres, Gorbechev and Tutu. Article also looks good so quality shouldn't be an issue. --2601:249:8E00:420:E491:206B:5172:51D8 (talk) 23:22, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
(Closed) Ongoing : 2023 Sudan War (Timeline)[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Ongoing item nomination (Post)
News source(s): [21]
Credits:
- Nominated by Lukt64 (talk · give credit)
Strong Oppose - Ongoing is for items that continuously generate news-worthy blurbs. The War in Sudan has been getting very little media coverage, barely any more than multiple other African civil wars. Ongoing isn't an armed conflict ticker. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 14:05, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per PW. Yhe conflict may be ongoing, but the impact is not covered in any great coverage in the media. --Masem (t) 14:37, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
Oppose and Snowclose per user:Stephen down in the removal discussion: Removed only minor updates have been made to the article since this was nominated for removal a week ago.
He then told you specifically when you demanded it be reinstated: You may want to read WP:ONGOING before you make your demands.
JM2023 (talk) 14:40, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose and SNOW close I weakly supported keeping it, but consensus + guidelines dictated its removal and that’s not gonna suddenly change in a day. Sour grapes don’t constitute a valid reason for reinstatement. The Kip 16:10, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
October 15[edit]
October 15, 2023
(Sunday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
Disasters and accidents
International relations
Law and crime
Politics and elections
|
(Posted) RD: M. S. Gill[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Times of india
Credits:
- Nominated by Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Former Chief Election Commissioner of India Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 22:30, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose three unsourced (or lacking inline citations) paragraphs out of five total in Early Life and Career, the bulk of the article. JM2023 (talk) 23:27, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- @JM2023 -- I added the refs for the paragraphs in question. Did not have time to make any text updates. But, have a look. Can help with some edits tomorrow if needed. Ktin (talk) 05:00, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Can anyone Please take a look now ?It appears okay.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 21:51, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Sourcing now seems to be there. --Masem (t) 18:38, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) 2023 Ecuadorian general election[edit]
Blurb: Daniel Noboa (pictured) is elected President of Ecuador. (Post)
News source(s): Reuters, NY Times
Credits:
- Nominated by Kacamata (talk · give credit)
- Updated by TDKR Chicago 101 (talk · give credit)
Article needs updating
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: Almost 90% of the votes counted. Noboa leads by almost 5 points and will win the election. Kacamata! Dimmi!!! 00:52, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Weak Support quite table-centric for the second round, only one sentence of prose in the lede about the second round, only one sentence of prose in the second round aftermath section, and the campaign section has one sentence; but per WP:ITNCRIT I think that might be OK if we consider the event to be the entire election and not just its results. Overall sourcing looks fine. Also Comment blurb has a grammatical error: should be "Noba is elected". JM2023 (talk) 02:32, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support ITN/R as both general election and change of chief executive This post was made by orbitalbuzzsaw gang (talk) 06:05, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support I've added some more info in the lead and aftermath section. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 15:34, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Has enough prose. Well cited. Sincerely, Novo Tape (She/Her)My Talk Page 17:19, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Stephen 21:52, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) 2023 Polish parliamentary election[edit]
Blurb: United Right wins the 2023 Polish parliamentary election but fails to get a majority of seats. (Post)
Alternative blurb: Parties opposing the ruling United Right win a majority of seats in the Polish general election.
Alternative blurb II: The opposition (KO, L, TD) wins a plurality of votes against the incumbent Law and Justice in Polish general election.
Alternative blurb III: The United Right led by the Law and Justice party wins a plurality of votes in the Polish parliamentary election but loses its majority to the opposition (Civic Coalition, The Left, and Third Way).
News source(s): Guardian, Politico
Credits:
- Nominated by Gust Justice (talk · give credit)
- Updated by CrimsonCube (talk · give credit), Lexoomfie (talk · give credit), Tomeka2 (talk · give credit) and Miki1234568 (talk · give credit)
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: An election outcome and likely change in government which will have a significant impact in Europe. I am not quite sure how to phrase the blurb as its not easy to summarise things. So feel free to propose an alternate. Also should only be posted once more of the votes have been counted. Gust Justice (talk) 00:44, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment. Official results should be in somewhere around noon Tuesday CEST. The opposition parties will likely be able to independently form the government. Finally. --Ouro (blah blah) 02:13, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Weak Support besides lede, background, and electoral system, has almost no prose, almost all tables. Also Comment the 2023 Polish parliamentary election should be bolded. JM2023 (talk) 03:06, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Hugely significant. Von der Leyen will be breaking out the special occasion wine tonight. This post was made by orbitalbuzzsaw gang (talk) 06:04, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Subsequent comment: Added alt blurb This post was made by orbitalbuzzsaw gang (talk) 06:09, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support in principle, but Oppose altburb per WP:POV. The article requires some work before posting, though.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 07:06, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Wait and Oppose 1st blurb. It's not POV to claim PiS lost; if the trend is confirmed they lost and resoundingly so. The big winners are Third Way and Civic Coalition, the big losers are Confederation and Law and Justice. We should wait until votes are counted and confirmation of the "democratic opposition" government. Added altblurb2. Abcmaxx (talk) 08:15, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Abcmaxx: We post election results, not speculations based on personal wishes. How do you determine who's opposition? What if a political party of the so-called "opposition" forms a government with PiS? We should wait until the final results come in and post a blurb including the party that won the most seats (whether they'll form a government or not is completely irrelevant).--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 11:09, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Because in this instance this was already established pre-election. Abcmaxx (talk) 13:09, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Abcmaxx: We post election results, not speculations based on personal wishes. How do you determine who's opposition? What if a political party of the so-called "opposition" forms a government with PiS? We should wait until the final results come in and post a blurb including the party that won the most seats (whether they'll form a government or not is completely irrelevant).--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 11:09, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Too much WP:CRYSTAL based on exit polls and speculation about possible coalitions. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:48, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- A variant of the first blurb (PiS most votes and most seats, but loses their majority) that sticks to the facts should be used until coaliton negoations conclude. It's too early to be declaring winners or losers in wikivoice. Iffy★Chat -- 10:21, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support alternative blurb, because it states the facts, the case is clear by now; PiS is unable to form gvt. No speculation, immense significance for EU. --Wuerzele (talk) 15:13, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support for Alternative blurb. As was said, this has immense significance for EU, as well as Poland. The opposition parties have long held that PiS winning again would be the end of direct democracy. This election is seen by approximately half of Poles as that type of election, and thus hugely significant for the social and political climate of Poland. This no longer suffers WP:CRYSTAL considerations and should be added. Zombie Philosopher (talk) 16:34, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Not Ready Pretty close to zero prose covering the results. Once the results are clear and the article is updated with an appropriate summary, we can post. But we are not there either in terms of all the results or article quality. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:35, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment I think the altblurbs clearly contain original research. The opposition parties that allegedly won the majority of seats didn’t form a united opposition coalition but instead run independently, and there’s really no need to regress from an encyclopaedic to a journalistic style and report something in a suggestive manner. Only the original blurb makes sense and is in accordance with the blurbs on elections posted in the past (PiS will probably win most seats but will likely fail to form a government. That’s exactly what the original blurb tells.).--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 17:07, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment the article is not ready, but, frankly, I don't mind. Basically because, in the context of Polish politics, I find it much more noticeable when those results materialize with Donald (the better one) Tusk becoming Prime Minister, which seems very probable. _-_Alsor (talk) 20:47, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support for Alternative blurb best description for the outcome in my opinion Braganza (talk) 20:53, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose, seat count is not out yet. Supporting the original blurb as altblurb1 has NPOV issues. No prose regarding reactions or aftermath, nor conduct during election as is usually typical. I'll adjust to support when issues are resolved. Ornithoptera (talk) 07:29, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Just to note full results are available as of right now. --Ouro (blah blah) 07:30, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - article looks good. I think the original blurb is best. We best not speculate as to who will form a government, even if it seems highly likely that Tusk will lead a coalition. PiS will probably get the first shot anyway since it's up to Duda to pick the first prime ministerial candidate. estar8806 (talk) ★ 11:59, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment - Currently there are 7 support, versus 1 wait 1 oppose 1 not ready. The considerations of the 'wait' and 'not ready' were about final results, which are in. Hence those should be counted as null and/or support. This seems to have enough support consensus at this point to post. There are 1 oppose alt blurb, 1 oppose 1st blurb, 3 support 1st blurb, 3 support alt blurb. Consensus to post is clear, consensus for which blurb is not. However, I'm willing to change my support for alt blurb to whatever will result in posting the article. Zombie Philosopher (talk) 12:41, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Ambivalent about which blurb should be posted. It seems rather misleading to suggest that PiS "won" the election when every RS is reporting that they "are on course to be ousted", "seem set to be ousted", etc. I could support original blurb, but only if we post another blurb if/when Tusk forms his coalition government as expected. (We did the same thing after the 2017 New Zealand general election; first blurb on September 25 said "the National Party wins plurality" and the second blurb on October 20 said "Jacinda Ardern becomes PM after forming Labour–NZ First coalition".) Davey2116 (talk) 18:45, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Covered by ITN/R, and the article has enough prose other than the tables to provide context. No opinion on which blurb to choose. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 22:32, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support, ambivalent on blurb but I lean ALT1 - the biggest implication of this election is the opposition winning a majority. The Kip 03:14, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support for Alternative blurb. It is misleading to say United Right won the election when they don't have a majority of seats --MtPenguinMonster (talk) 06:19, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Changing from wait to support given results are in and added altblurb3 in order to reach a compromise and reflect WP:RS without WP:CRYSTALBALL. Abcmaxx (talk) 07:33, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Update comment on consensus status: Currently there are 12 support, versus 1 oppose 1 not ready. There are 1 oppose alt blurb, 1 oppose 1st blurb, 3 support 1st blurb, 4 support alt blurb, 1 support 3rd blurb. Zombie Philosopher (talk) 11:26, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support, Support the original blurb. So far that's all we know. Would support an update after a govenment wins a vote of confidence (probably around 26th December). I think the original "Oppose" votes reasons have already been resolved so this should be posted. Psubrat2000 (talk) 12:37, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- I still oppose the word "win" and the original blurb. They haven't won anything other than a plurality of votes. Abcmaxx (talk) 14:06, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment So no one is going to post this because of a disagreement over a blurb? Wikipedia's ITN needs to address its own limitations and have some sort of standardization. The gaming of it is too easy, the consensus building is unrefined and scattered, and it doesn't live up to the name "In the News". Should be called something completely different that represents the chaotic consensus building, such as "Consensus News" or something. 4 support for the Ecuadorian election receives an immediate posting, while 12 to 1 support for this election does not because of disagreement over a blurb. Which means that anyone can offer a variety of blurbs in order to split consensus on that part and prevent an article from being posted. How the admins do not see (or do not act to remedy) that this is a major failing of the system is beyond me. Zombie Philosopher (talk) 03:11, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted alt 1 Stephen 23:02, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Suzanne Somers[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Variety
Credits:
- Nominated by Mooonswimmer (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Jinyceditor (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Unsourced filmography Mooonswimmer 20:46, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
Oppose. Per nom. There are multiple issues with the article.🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 23:21, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Daniel Quinlan:, sorry for the late reply. Yes, the article looks much better now. Changing to Support. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 08:15, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
Oppose article has a giant WP:TONE tag at the top.Support apparently the issues have been resolved and it's not stale yet. JM2023 (talk) 03:08, 16 October 2023 (UTC)- Support. The tone tag issues have been addressed and the filmography is better sourced now than the vast majority of similar articles. I think this can be posted now. @JM2023: @Midori No Sora: Could you reconsider your votes? Thanks. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 22:00, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Admins willing to post ITN: BangJan1999 18:31, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Too many {{cn}} 's remaining. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:36, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- An IP editor just bombed the article with {{cn}} tags on every single line that didn't have an ending citation in this edit. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 19:22, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Muboshgu: I have addressed all remaining issue tags and remarked this candidate as ready. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 20:05, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Too many {{cn}} 's remaining. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:36, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted – Schwede66 20:25, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
October 14[edit]
October 14, 2023
(Saturday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
Law and crime
Politics and elections
Science and technology
|
RD: Lance Armstrong[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://tasmaniantimes.com/2023/10/vale-lance-armstrong-mha/
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Tasmanian politician. 65.94.213.53 (talk) 09:03, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: Needs referencing work. SpencerT•C 04:33, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
Dariush Mehrjui[edit]
Recent deaths nomination
Blurb: Iranian New Wave film director Dariush Mehrjui and his wife are murdered in Karaj. (Post)
Alternative blurb: Iranian film director Dariush Mehrjui dies at 83.
Alternative blurb II: Iranian film director Dariush Mehrjui and his wife are murdered in Karaj.
News source(s): cafehdanesh.com, AP, Variety, Deadline, NYT, BBC, Guardian
Credits:
- Nominated by 98.225.20.168 (talk · give credit)
- Created by Sasanjan (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Keivan.f (talk · give credit), Hadisharifi2020 (talk · give credit), Jkaharper (talk · give credit), Kelisi (talk · give credit) and Hamid Hassani (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Recent Deaths would be acceptable, but given the importance of the filmmaker in Iran (and in world cinema) and given the tragic circumstances, I believe that In the News would be appropriate. 98.225.20.168 (talk) 07:57, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support – Hamid Hassani (talk) 08:26, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment Minor fixes to nom: Added RD and removed ITNR (which this is not). As for blurb would like to see more info on the nature of the crime before commenting. Gotitbro (talk) 08:52, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose on quality at the very least. There's an unsourced paragraph in the career section, an unsourced statement in the Cinematic style and legacy section, the filmography is wholly unsourced, and the awards section also needs more refs. Also the infobox includes his date of birth, that he has 3 children and that he has had a previous spouse that he divorced, but this isn't sourced anywhere in the prose. Additionally I'm not 100% certain on the reliability of all of the sources, at the very least there's one statement sourced to IMDb which is definitely unreliable. This needs a good amount of work to be ready for RD, and some more work on his legacy and impact would be optimal if we want to blurb it. Scientia potentia est, MonarchOfTerror 11:39, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- RD only, but oppose on quality I'm really not seeing a lot of justification here for a blurb, given how little is known around the deaths beyond having been murdered. The article is missing sourcing on the film list and a handful of statements throughout the article. Also, not thrilled how much is sourced to ref #5 there, and makes me a bit concerned if a copyvio check should be made. --Masem (t) 12:46, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose RD on quality per above, Oppose blurb on notability because there is no way the murder of a single B-list director is world news. JM2023 (talk) 13:51, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Guardian calls him prominent, Iran's culture minister also hails him [23]. Kirill C1 (talk) 06:35, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- we didn't even blurb Dianne Feinstein. Prominent people die every day, hence RD. The bar has to be higher than you propose or else ITN becomes an obituary. JM2023 (talk) 14:32, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Guardian calls him prominent, Iran's culture minister also hails him [23]. Kirill C1 (talk) 06:35, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Blurb on Notability, Oppose RD on Quality This is simply not enough to be a blurb. As for RD, the article has a lack of reliable sources. TheInevitables (talk) 16:10, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support blurb. It is shocking to see famous film director be murdered in Iran. Kirill C1 (talk) 18:25, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Normally yes, but what we seem to know is simply that he and his wife were likely murdered, and that's it. No named suspects, no motives, etc. We hardly are providing any significant information on the death to make the blurb necessary. Masem (t) 21:19, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Procedural support for RD but oppose blurb, per the recent consensus in favor of restricting RDBs and my own opinion that it should be restricted to heads of state/government of major powers with very narrow exceptions This post was made by orbitalbuzzsaw gang (talk) 06:06, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- There should be an RfC in response to that consensus we found in order to actually change what it says in the guidelines but I don't know what I'm doing most of the time so I'll leave it to someone else for now. In the meantime this blurb can be opposed on notability grounds anyway through current standards. JM2023 (talk) 14:34, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- When did we have consensus on a change to death blurbs? Surely you don't mean the one that's still on the talk page. GreatCaesarsGhost 17:54, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Last I saw of it, my understanding was that it looked as though most people were in favour of changing ITNRDBLURB to match ITN standards so that the death itself must be notable, and that a notable life is never necessarily a notable death. Unless it's a different one now. I am talking about the discussion started by Chaotic Enby in response to my comment under an RD blurb discussion for a death a few weeks ago. Even that discussion, despite not having changed the words of the rules, would seem to indicate most people have expressed higher standards for ITNRDBLURB notability by even current guidelines than what people often propose. JM2023 (talk) 18:01, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Nominators note: First, its been a while since I've edited, so I'm a bit rusty. Its looking more and more like this was a politically motivated murder, and may become a major news story for broader reasons. There's online chatter comparing it to a series of political murders in the 1990s, allegedly involving the Minister of Intelligence- Chain murders of Iran. I suggest giving it a day or two before rejecting based on standards of quality. I wish I had more time to work on the article myself. The murders seem to have been particularly brutal, its very disturbing. And there are four suspects in custody. I honestly don't know, is www.ncr-iran.org a reliable source?98.225.20.168 (talk) 06:20, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Piper Laurie[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Hollywood Reporter
Credits:
- Nominated by Kacamata (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Sunshineisles2 (talk · give credit) and Nohomersryan (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: American actress Kacamata! Dimmi!!! 23:00, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support looks well sourced Lukt64 (talk) 01:16, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support. Article looks solid. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 17:39, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
Not yet "Television" and "Audio dramas" subsections are without source and I've added a cn tag in the last line of "Career" section. _-_Alsor (talk) 18:16, 15 October 2023 (UTC)- @Alsoriano97 I resolved most of these issues, but there are still some TV works unsourced. Kacamata! Dimmi!!! 15:14, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose None of the five television credits I spot-checked were on the bulk citation provided. GreatCaesarsGhost 18:24, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Alsoriano97, GreatCaesarsGhost: There's one outlier, but the sourcing issues have been addressed. Would you mind taking another look? gobonobo + c 11:26, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Gobonobo seems good to me. Thanks for your work! I'm supporting this nomination. _-_Alsor (talk) 09:33, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Alsoriano97, GreatCaesarsGhost: There's one outlier, but the sourcing issues have been addressed. Would you mind taking another look? gobonobo + c 11:26, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Issued Id'd by GCG appear to have been fixed, ready to go. --Masem (t) 18:36, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Gembong Warsono[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [24]
Credits:
- Created and nominated by Juxlos (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Regional legislator from Jakarta, Indonesia. Juxlos (talk) 14:58, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- seems well sourced, i support. Lukt64 (talk) 01:15, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) 2023 New Zealand general election[edit]
Blurb: The National Party, led by Christopher Luxon, wins the most seats in the New Zealand general election. (Post)
News source(s): ABC CNN Reuters 1News
Credits:
- Nominated by Ornithoptera (talk · give credit)
- Created by Schwede66 (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Lcmortensen (talk · give credit), ConcordeAAIB (talk · give credit), Lord A.Nelson (talk · give credit), Kiwiz1338 (talk · give credit) and Andykatib (talk · give credit)
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: New Prime Minister for New Zealand most likely. Ornithoptera (talk) 10:04, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support article looks excessively long which makes it a bit dense, IMHO. But the most important parts seem to have sufficient prose and the content is sourced.
- _-_Alsor (talk) 14:58, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support defeat of a major Zero-COVID pandemic-era and Maori Power government and transition from leftism to rightism, has a good enough article. JM2023 (talk) 15:47, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Question - do we usually make two separate posts for the changing of the legislature and then the changing of the Prime Minister? Because if so, we shouldn't, and instead should wait until the Prime Minister is chosen before posting this. Otherwise, we should post this and update the Blurb once the Prime Minister is chosen. --RockstoneSend me a message! 23:28, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Per the above link to WP:ITN/R:
The results of general elections in: All states on the list of sovereign states; European Union elections. Disputed states and dependent territories should be discussed at WP:ITN/C and judged on their own merits. Changes in the holder of the office which administer the executive of their respective state/government, in those countries which qualify under the criteria above, as listed at List of current heads of state and government except when that change was already posted as part of a general election.
- Hopefully that answers the question. JM2023 (talk) 23:45, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Per the above link to WP:ITN/R:
- I.. think so? It seems we will not post a change in prime minister, then? --RockstoneSend me a message! 22:54, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- I believe the guideline is saying that the fact we have posted the general election results means we will not post the PM's appointment, and that general elections take precedence over PM appointments and presidential inaugurations that result from them, which is why they the elections are posted when they occur. JM2023 (talk) 03:10, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- I.. think so? It seems we will not post a change in prime minister, then? --RockstoneSend me a message! 22:54, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Article looks to be of good quality. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 23:59, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Stephen 00:19, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for posting this, Stephen. The editor who, over the last few weeks, has added the most prose to this article was Andykatib and he was missing from the credits. I've added him. Would you please be so kind and issue a credit? Note that because this seems to be restricted to adding five contributors, I deleted one of the others (so that Andykatib shows). Schwede66 00:55, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Done, no problem. Stephen 01:49, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks so much, @Schwede66: and @Stephen:. Andykatib (talk) 03:54, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- I'd like to add my thanks as well. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 05:20, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks so much, @Schwede66: and @Stephen:. Andykatib (talk) 03:54, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Done, no problem. Stephen 01:49, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) 2023 Australian referendum[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Blurb: Australians reject constitutional recognition for Indigenous Australians and a proposed advisory body in a referendum. (Post)
Alternative blurb: Voters reject altering the Australian Constitution to establish an Indigenous Voice to Parliament
Alternative blurb II: In a referendum, Australia votes to reject the proposal to recognise Indigenous Australians, through an alteration to the Constitution to create a body called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.
Alternative blurb III: The 2023 Australian Indigenous Voice referendum (pictured) is defeated.
Alternative blurb IV: The 2023 Australian Indigenous Voice constitutional referendum is defeated.
News source(s): Washington Post Al Jazeera The Guardian Reuters CNN ABC
Credits:
- Created and nominated by Ornithoptera (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Matthew McMullin (talk · give credit), Muaza Husni (talk · give credit), QLDer in NSW (talk · give credit), Aréat (talk · give credit) and Safes007 (talk · give credit)
- Support Alt1. BilledMammal (talk) 10:05, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support ALT1 5225C (talk • contributions) 10:29, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support DaddySpaghetti (talk) 10:47, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Very significant aspect of Indigenous Australian history. I prefer the original blurb as alt blurb 1 fails to mention constitutional recognition of Indigenous Australians which is one of the tenets of the referendum, and alt blurb 2 is too wordy for a blurb. Also see History wars and Indigenous Australian self-determination which lead to this. Gotitbro (talk) 11:16, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Feel like it's better to be succinct, the referendum has been referred to as the Voice referendum and that's what coverage has been about. The recognition bit is only a small chunk of the proposed amendment, which is contained within the failed Voice amendment. 5225C (talk • contributions) 11:18, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- One of my issues with the original blurb is that it could be interpreted as two separate proposals being voted down; we would need to reword it to avoid that. BilledMammal (talk) 11:21, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- A rewording might be required and I would get behind it but a mere listing that Indigenous Voice to Parliament failed to be added to the Australian Constitution will be meaningless to most non-AU readers.
- The blurb at the very least needs to explain what was voted on (as we have done for past referendums that have been posted here on ITN). Gotitbro (talk) 12:19, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- well the blurb helpfully comes with a link to that article which will be great to inform readers. Perhaps "Indigenous-only federal legislative body" or something could be added before it though. JM2023 (talk) 15:32, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Had the motion succeeded it would be more newsworthy for Wikipedia, but as is there is no change in circumstance 675930s (talk) 11:55, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support alt 1 - I think the Voice to Parliament should be in the blurb. Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:02, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - Per above. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 13:18, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Alt3 (but I've added Alt4 to add one more word as to make it very succinct but clear what was going on). --Masem (t) 13:24, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Alt III I've also added one word, "pictured", and that photo contains the "missing" relevant words. InedibleHulk (talk) 13:32, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Alt 1 - Helpful to have the additional context- alt I summarizes it best. Schwinnspeed (talk) 14:09, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Alt1 major defeat of an indigenous power campaign and a major blow to the incumbent Labor government, good enough article JM2023 (talk) 15:39, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose No change so it's a non-event. The article is also poor quality as it seems very focussed on the ongoing campaign with lots of opinion polling and position statements which are now all moot. And the tenses are wrong. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:58, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Stephen 22:00, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Far too early. It's only just gone 9:00 am on a Sunday morning here in Australia. (The vote was just yesterday, on a Saturday.) A lot of Australians, those wanting to comment on this, won't be out of bed yet! I don't recognise any Australians in the contributors above. HiLo48 (talk) 22:19, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose As above, nothing is changing. The widely divergent proposed blurbs here reflect what really happened. Massive amounts of misinformation, fear, uncertainty, and doubt were generated by the No campaign, so that in the end millions of voters had no idea what they were voting for or against. Many thought they knew, but there claims were often wrong. I might support a blurb precisely quoting the proposal, and that it was defeated. Anything else is original research — Preceding unsigned comment added by HiLo48 (talk • contribs) 22:13, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- What's really original research is this comment of yours. Uncited and vague accusations of "misinformation, fear, uncertainty, and doubt" against one side constitute WP:FORUM and MOS:WEASEL and are certainly not grounds to oppose an ITN submission. Anyway, as I said below, The failure of the Scottish independence referendum was posted back in 2014. JM2023 (talk) 23:42, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- My "accusations" aren't vague, and there are plenty of sources for such claims. Not in the Murdoch or Costello media though. HiLo48 (talk) 00:20, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- They are vague. You say
Massive amounts of misinformation, fear, uncertainty, and doubt
(texbook MOS:WEASEL), provide absolutely 0 examples at all, and now you just saythere are plenty of sources
(more MOS:WEASEL) despite not citing a single one this time either. And none of your new comment addresses the WP:FORUM concerns, or how your oppose has nothing to do with the article's quality or notability but instead with off-topic vague allegations against one side's campaign, thereby breaking fundamental ITN guidelines. And what's with the random off-topic potshot atMurdoch [and] Costello media
?and you've made a formatting error here, talking to me but replying to your own comment.(fixed) You've been here since 2009, you've had a civility restriction imposed on you from ANI, really you shouldn't be doing this and should know better. JM2023 (talk) 00:23, 15 October 2023 (UTC)- I am not the topic. HiLo48 (talk) 00:54, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- That's right. The topic is the Indigenous Voice to Parliament, which you commented on in a forum-like way with off-topic allegations which broke ITN guidelines, so I pointed that out alongside pointing out why you should know better than this. I believe it's helpful and within bounds of topicality and civility to point out when other editors stray off-topic and break guidelines in the name of opposition to a blurb. Such callouts are regular and help ITN function properly. We should go back to discussing the topical blurb within guidelines, without weasel words or unsourced off-topic claims. JM2023 (talk) 00:59, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- I am STILL not the topic. HiLo48 (talk) 01:12, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- I've already explained why I said what I said and why it doesn't matter whether you are or are not the topic. Please stop disrupting the project, especially considering your apparent history. Just discuss the proposed blurb without violating anything or going off-topic. Right now it looks like you're telling me to ignore your various aforementioned violations (including going off-topic) and stop telling you to stick to ITN rules when discussing this blurb.JM2023 (talk) 01:43, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- I am not telling you to do nor not do anything. HiLo48 (talk) 02:30, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- You are telling me you are not the topic, the implication being you don't want me to talk about you, despite the fact that all i'm doing is pointing out the fact you were off-topic out the gate alongside some other violations which I point out in order to get you on topic. This looks like a case of WP:LASTWORD. JM2023 (talk) 02:33, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- I am not telling you to do nor not do anything. HiLo48 (talk) 02:30, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- I've already explained why I said what I said and why it doesn't matter whether you are or are not the topic. Please stop disrupting the project, especially considering your apparent history. Just discuss the proposed blurb without violating anything or going off-topic. Right now it looks like you're telling me to ignore your various aforementioned violations (including going off-topic) and stop telling you to stick to ITN rules when discussing this blurb.JM2023 (talk) 01:43, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- I am STILL not the topic. HiLo48 (talk) 01:12, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- That's right. The topic is the Indigenous Voice to Parliament, which you commented on in a forum-like way with off-topic allegations which broke ITN guidelines, so I pointed that out alongside pointing out why you should know better than this. I believe it's helpful and within bounds of topicality and civility to point out when other editors stray off-topic and break guidelines in the name of opposition to a blurb. Such callouts are regular and help ITN function properly. We should go back to discussing the topical blurb within guidelines, without weasel words or unsourced off-topic claims. JM2023 (talk) 00:59, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- I am not the topic. HiLo48 (talk) 00:54, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- They are vague. You say
- My "accusations" aren't vague, and there are plenty of sources for such claims. Not in the Murdoch or Costello media though. HiLo48 (talk) 00:20, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- I would presume notability for constitutional referendums whether succesful or not. The very fact of its rejection has generation significant attention. The blurb is, as of writing, very matter of fact and additional commentary for how it exactly played out is better dealt within the article. Gotitbro (talk) 08:59, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Post-posting oppose and Pull -- no change, so nonevent. I suggest pulling and waiting a bit, this was way too premature to post... We wouldn't post a story about an amendment failing to pass in the US or Canada, would we? --RockstoneSend me a message! 23:26, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- If Brexit failed I have no doubt it would have been posted. The failure of the Scottish independence referendum was posted back in 2014. I have very little doubt that if a constitutional amendment was put to popular vote in the US or Canada and failed that it would be posted. Even its failure would be a huge news story with results and maybe aftermath sections in their hypothetical articles and would be of sufficient notability and quality to post. JM2023 (talk) 23:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- This is simply not in the same ball park as Brexit. The world had heard about Brexit for years before the poll. That's not the case here. HiLo48 (talk) 00:21, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
Once again a formatting error. Talking to me but replying to someone else.(fixed) The world has heard about the IVtP for at least months, or else you wouldn't be able to allegeMassive amounts of misinformation, fear, uncertainty, and doubt
(without examples or sources) being promoted in media outlets. And this also doesn't address the fact that we posted the Scottish independence referendum. JM2023 (talk) 00:25, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- This is simply not in the same ball park as Brexit. The world had heard about Brexit for years before the poll. That's not the case here. HiLo48 (talk) 00:21, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support - The rejection is also notable (and therefore widely reported by the press) and historic with, likely, political consequences in Australia.--Kacamata! Dimmi!!! 00:17, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Please tell us about these likely political consequences. I haven't heard of any. HiLo48 (talk) 00:23, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- There's quite a few. For a start, another referendum in the near future is unlikely, so republic for many years to come. That will have international implications. It may be pretty minor compared with Brexit but will the add to the worldwide perception that democracy is dysfunctional, especially in Asia. The electorates that returned teal candidates in the last election were solidly behind the yes vote, so their chances of reelection are enhanced, which in turn may continue the drift of the conservative side of politics away from the middle class and towards blue collar populism along the lines of what has occurred in the United States. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:39, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Please tell us about these likely political consequences. I haven't heard of any. HiLo48 (talk) 00:23, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support per JM2023. Just because something failed doesn't invalidate it from being posted. I believe if a Yes would be historic and the counts were close enough the referendum should be posted. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:35, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Post-Posting Support given the context. DarkSide830 (talk) 15:08, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
October 13[edit]
October 13, 2023
(Friday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
Arts and culture
Business and economy
Disasters and accidents
Health and environment
International relations
Law and crime
Politics and elections
Science and technology
|
RD: Mark Goddard[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [25], [26]
Credits:
- Nominated by Happily888 (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Death announced on October 13. Happily888 (talk) 00:18, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment The entire career section is unsourced. Novo Tape (talk) 00:19, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
RD: Linda Arkley[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/linda-arkley-north-tyneside-council-27907771
Credits:
- Updated by Kelisi (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Mayor of North Tyneside, 2003-2005 and 2009-2013. 65.94.213.53 (talk) 09:11, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Jaakko Ihamuotila[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.iltalehti.fi/kotimaa/a/87a2c83d-2bd2-40de-ae75-53f04a84a752
Credits:
- Updated by 46.132.29.198 (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Finnish business executive. 65.94.213.53 (talk) 09:11, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
RD: Ronald M. Mottl[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://obits.cleveland.com/us/obituaries/cleveland/name/ronald-mottl-obituary?id=53345056
Credits:
- Updated by Rmottl (talk · give credit) and Connormah (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Ohio politician who served four terms in the United States House of Representatives from 1975 to 1983. 65.94.213.53 (talk) 09:11, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support' Seems well sourced except for one or two statements. Enough prose. Novo Tape (talk) 00:21, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
RD: Roméo Savoie[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1849597/romeo-savoie-mort-peintre-architecte-acadie
Credits:
- Updated by Jkaharper (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Canadian abstract painter. 65.94.213.53 (talk) 09:11, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
RD: Princess India of Afghanistan[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://menafn.com/1107240982/Princes-India-Daughter-Of-King-Amanullah-Khan-Passes-Away-In-Rome
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Afghan royalty. 65.94.213.53 (talk) 09:11, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Issam Abdallah[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.reuters.com/world/obituary-reuters-issam-abdallah-covered-worlds-biggest-events-with-bravery-2023-10-14/
Credits:
- Created by HearbreakingSuperman (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Iskandar323 (talk · give credit) and FunLater (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Reuters visuals journalist killed while filming Israeli missile attacks at the Israeli-Lebanon border. 65.94.213.53 (talk) 09:11, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support -- seems decently sourced with enough prose. Sincerely, Novo Tape (She/Her)My Talk Page 15:13, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Stephen 02:38, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted to RD) RD: Louise Glück[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [27]
Credits:
- Nominated by BangJan1999 (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
- Comment. As she had multiple awards, including Nobel Prize, should we propose blurb? Kirill C1 (talk) 21:49, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- It’s clear that Nobel laureates enjoy a notability that few people have, a fact that we all share. But Glück having a blurb would open the pandora's box for other laureates to have a blurb as well, making Main Page impractical and useless. It’s a proposal that I fear its results. _-_Alsor (talk) 00:41, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- agree totally JM2023 (talk) 15:33, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- It’s clear that Nobel laureates enjoy a notability that few people have, a fact that we all share. But Glück having a blurb would open the pandora's box for other laureates to have a blurb as well, making Main Page impractical and useless. It’s a proposal that I fear its results. _-_Alsor (talk) 00:41, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb as not a key political leader or otherwise sufficiently important (as distinct from notable) for blurb This post was made by orbitalbuzzsaw gang (talk) 04:32, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support RD, but Oppose a blurb. Well cited, no tags, comprehensive coverage of her life. The article would probably do better with more sections, though I'm nitpicking at this point. Concur with above that blurbing would open a Pandora's box. Bremps... 04:32, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support blurb The talk above of Pandora's box is nonsense. It seems that about one Nobel laureate dies per month on average but many or most of those don't get nominated here. For example, Harry Markowitz died in June but didn't even get a nomination or RD. And it was the same for K. Alex Müller who died in January. But we blurbed Milan Kundera who didn't win the Nobel Prize for Literature. Andrew🐉(talk) 07:49, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- The Nobel Prize in Literature has very low regard in world literature circles (not to mention that it's considered a joke).--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 11:45, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support RD, Oppose blurb. Not significant enough for blurb IMO. Nigej (talk) 08:10, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb primarily because she wasn't a household name that entered the literature education around the world.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 11:32, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose blurb No question her writing was profound (hence the Nobel), but I'm not seeing a lot of what her writing has influenced, nor what she otherwise had done to be influential outside of that. Being a Nobel Laurate is not automatically a bar for inclusion as a blurb. The article otherwise looks good for Support RD. --Masem (t) 13:31, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Admins willing to post ITN: BangJan1999 15:23, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Blurb per above. Few people want ITN to become an obituary. JM2023 (talk) 15:34, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted to RD. SpencerT•C 16:14, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Blurb - 50,000+ pageviews the last 24 hrs suggests that this is no ordinary RD. The article was ready to go as is. So what’s the issue? ITN should consider doing “time sensitive” RD blurbs. Ie.: 4 hours/24hours/indefinitely. Just as a tip-of-the-cap to a noteworthy RD. Like the flag lowered to half-mast. Time sensitive blurbs should be at editor’s discretion to avoid all this endless wrangling. Trauma Novitiate (talk) 12:57, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- At least part of the issue is that the article provides less than a sentence of additional information about her death besides what would be in the blurb. WP:ITNUPDATE demands more, and there really isn't anything to put there to satisfy it. —Cryptic 16:28, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Presumably becuase the RD was posted, which is why it suddenly has so many views probably? What are the pageviews on the other RDs for context? For all we know, they could be double. And like Cryptic says, this doesn't even meet the guidelines for a blurb anyway. Also
Just as a tip-of-the-cap to a noteworthy RD. Like the flag lowered to half-mast
ITN is not an obituary or a way to pay tribute to dead people. JM2023 (talk) 17:22, 15 October 2023 (UTC)- For context, Milan Kundera received a death blurb with pageviews peaking at about 100k views. See here for a graph. Sincerely, Novo Tape (She/Her)My Talk Page 20:03, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) Psyche launch[edit]
![Proposed image](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Hall_Thruster_for_Psyche_operating_at_JPL.jpg/121px-Hall_Thruster_for_Psyche_operating_at_JPL.jpg)
Blurb: NASA's Psyche spacecraft is launched to explore the metal-rich asteroid 16 Psyche (Post)
News source(s): [28] [29]
Credits:
- Nominated by Jolielegal (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Jolielegal (talk) 06:02, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support It's an interesting mission to establish whether the asteroid is like the Earth's core but will take many years to produce results. And the use of a Hall-effect electric drive is significant too. As it's in the news now, we should run it now. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:09, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support. Important and interesting mission, but I prefer this image File:PIA21499 - Artist's Concept of Psyche Spacecraft with Five-Panel Array.jpg. We can also add that it'll arrive in 2029. Artem.G (talk) 11:57, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose. Look, I know we love our space missions here, but can we just...not post every single new mission. If/when this mission returns important information we should post THAT news. But this feels like another one where we're posting every darn aspect about the mission with no real certainty of its impact. DarkSide830 (talk) 15:12, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose there are guidelines for space related stuff, I don't recall where, but I'm almost certain this launch does not meet the criteria. Kcmastrpc (talk) 15:15, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Do you mean the ITN/R criteria? While not *strictly* covering this event (note that it *would* cover its arrival!) it's important to note conflate ITN proposals and ITN/R. Most items that get posted to ITN are *not* covered by ITN/R; the latter merely makes its notability assumed, while for non-ITN/R proposals, the notability has to be examined on a case-by-case basis. Simply applying the standards for ITN/R is kind of redundant, because were it covered under that... It'd be ITN/R already. (of course, this doesn't stop the opposite, from editors trying to debate the *lack of notability* for an item already under ITN/R...)
- Since this is not a proposal to list this as ITN/R, those guidelines are thus pretty irrelevant. - Nottheking (talk) 17:33, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support. Because the blurb is about the launch, it might make sense to mention the launch rocket as well. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 17:46, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Launches to any Earth-escape trajectory are particularly rare, and always gather substantial news coverage. This is the third (and final) such launch this entire year, after ESA's JUICE in April, and ISRO's Aditya-L1 last month. JUICE was pretty swiftly posted, though Aditya-L1 was never proposed. (probably an effect of Anglocentric/systemic bias on the English Wikipedia)
- I concur with DarkSide830 as well; there has to be a better image than that of a thruster that is merely similar to what's on it; either a picture of the whole spacecraft or of the launch itself tends to be in line with what gets posted for space missions. Mention of the carrier rocket isn't normally covered however, since the rocket in question isn't part of the story's significance. - Nottheking (talk) 18:08, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
October 12[edit]
October 12, 2023
(Thursday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
Business and economy
Health and environment
International relations
Law and crime
Politics and elections
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(Posted) RD: Luis Garavito[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [30]
Credits:
- Nominated by Bremps (talk · give credit)
- Updated by 38.15.100.244 (talk · give credit), Tropicalia115 (talk · give credit), Mohamad Darilin (talk · give credit), Normantas Bataitis (talk · give credit) and Kelisi (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: No problems revealed after quick skim except for two cn tags Bremps... 23:36, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
- Colombian serial killer Bremps... 23:36, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support; possibly the most monstrously evil human who ever lived, certainly the most monsterously evil serial killer I have ever known of, and I am disturbed to be reminded of him. JM2023 (talk) 00:22, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- Holy shit that was a dark read. Genuinely horrifying, may there be a fiery pit of hell waiting for this guy PrecariousWorlds (talk) 13:40, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- I either hadn't heard about Garavito before, or I'd vaguely heard of his atrocities at some point and forgotten his name. But when I read his Wikipedia article, an entirely different identifier sprang to mind: the Devil Incarnate. He truly was malevolence and depravity personified. Kurtis (talk) 22:30, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Holy shit that was a dark read. Genuinely horrifying, may there be a fiery pit of hell waiting for this guy PrecariousWorlds (talk) 13:40, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose I just looked at this and don't feel better for the experience. Respectable news organisations typically warn people when they are going to see something upsetting but RD just lists the link with no clue about what you're going to get. This seems unacceptable in this case. Andrew🐉(talk) 16:18, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- The inclusion of biographies in RD depends on compliance with strict formal requirements, not on aspects of the content of these articles. _-_Alsor (talk) 16:49, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- We do not make judgements on RD topics as long as they meet quality and notability guidelines. We've listed other terrorists and mass murderers in the RD line before. Masem (t) 17:56, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- The problem is that the editor above frequently and flagrantly disregards those guidelines in favor of personal opinion on how ITN should be. The Kip 19:52, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- I don't really see anything that cites Wikipedia policy about what should or shouldn't be posted. Furthermore, we don't really shy away from posting violent stuff on ITN- we posted the murder of Matthew Shepard, the Mekong River massacre, and the Maxim restaurant suicide bombing on three consecutive days just this month. If you believe the policy should be changed, that would be a different forum entirely. Bremps... 04:06, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- That was just a major brainfart; those were all OTDs. Bremps... 06:06, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- I do think there should be some kind of warning on articles like these for extremely disturbing content, especially if we are going to put a link to it on a front page that is seen by millions of people every day. Some kind of viewer discretion. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 13:46, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- The lead's a bit misleading in that it gives the sensational initial sentence of the better part of two millennia in prison, but not that it was reduced to 40 and then 22 years, nor that he was up for parole this year... and those omissions are so glaring that I can't help but think they were there but were removed at some point, and I really don't have the stomach today to go trawling through the talk page and article history to see why. —Cryptic 17:47, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- Weak support I’ll fully admit I haven’t fully scrolled through the article - it’s not an easy read and at times I simply couldn’t take it. Those sections I did read seemed well-cited though. Truly a monstrous human and we’re better off now that he’s dead. The Kip 19:53, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support This man was simply evil. I havent read sections of part of the article yet, but it seems somewhat decently sourced. Lukt64 (talk) 20:15, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support, I guess, though I certainly regret doing anything close to reviewing this article. DarkSide830 (talk) 00:34, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Procedural support can't say I'm sad he's dead This post was made by orbitalbuzzsaw gang (talk) 03:44, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Don't think anyone here is. I probably wouldn't have nominated this if it had several CN tags, as that meant some poor soul at ITN would have to do research on this guy to confirm the worst details. Bremps... 04:24, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
Weak Support. I've quickly checked the entire article and I have to say that this article is well sourced and written. However, I've noticed that there's a 2 month old citation needed tag located at the "Public response" section, which sort of weakens my full support. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 03:55, 14 October 2023 (UTC)- @Midori No Sora I added a citation at the end of the paragraph, but didn't add the page numbers because Google Books decided to get difficult with me. Bremps... 04:21, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Fair enough. The article structure already looks decent enough and I don't want to start an argument over a single tag. Changing to Support. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 04:33, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Midori No Sora I added a citation at the end of the paragraph, but didn't add the page numbers because Google Books decided to get difficult with me. Bremps... 04:21, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Not shedding any tears but he meets the guidelines and the article is in decent shape. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:34, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment Fixed the final citation needed tag, but it still needs a page number (Google Books apparently doesn't display page numbers). Bremps... 04:43, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
October 11[edit]
October 11, 2023
(Wednesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
Disasters and accidents
International relations
Law and crime
Politics and elections
|
RD: Rainer Gut[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.nzz.ch/wirtschaft/nachruf-rainer-e-gut-der-manager-der-die-credit-suisse-gross-machte-ld.1731609
Credits:
- Updated by Celjski Grad (talk · give credit) and Kelisi (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Swiss bank manager, chairman of Credit Suisse (1983–2000). 65.94.213.53 (talk) 09:19, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: D. J. Gokulakrishnan[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Times of India
Credits:
- Nominated by Ktin (talk · give credit)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Cricketer and coach. Ktin (talk) 18:17, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Stephen 22:50, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment , Step how is this posted in RD? There are no comment from other users? Also this is very short article? Fahads1982 (talk) 02:40, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- I am an involved editor here, as the nominator, so take my words with that context. I personally do not see an issue with the article's length. At 2391 characters it definitely is not a stub. It is a start-class biography that meets minimums for homepage / RD. I personally have seen better biographies, but, what is there meets our homepage expectations. Good luck. Ktin (talk) 02:53, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, it's a referenced start class article, nominated by an editor with a history of quality work who understands the requirements. Stephen 03:20, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
RD: Rudolph Isley[edit]
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The New York Times
Credits:
- Nominated by ElijahPepe (talk · give credit)
- Updated by Ghmyrtle (talk · give credit)
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 22:53, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
- Close, but a bit short There's a few uncited sources, but most of them appear to be obvious fixes, like linking to the Rock Hall class list or info on them, for example. TheCorriynial (talk) 23:53, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose A lot more work needed on referencing. Pawnkingthree (talk) 17:28, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
(Closed) North East Express[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Blurb: A train derailment of a major train in India. More than 12 coaches derailed, 6 dead and more than 100 injured. (Post)
News source(s): The Quint, , Live Mint, Reuters, The Indian Express
Credits:
- Nominated by Leoneix (talk · give credit)
Article updated
- Oppose: No article specific to the event Prodrummer619 (talk) 05:11, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Per above, plus death rate is not significant enough. Editor 5426387 (talk) 14:53, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose No article and minor impact. The Kip 16:20, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose not notable enough, doesn't have its own article. Unknown-Tree (talk) 17:54, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose not notable, doesn't even have an article, blurb doesn't even follow ITN format, it's even missing a bolded link. Also not even proposed in the right day section. JM2023 (talk) 20:38, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose per JM2023. Also great blurb lol
- Elisecars727 (talk) 20:52, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
(Posted) RD: Cal Wilson[edit]
- Oppose. The Television section needs more citations. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 15:28, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support. Notable enough. RIP Cal. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 22:17, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- Therealscorp1an, please note that a recent death nomination is NOT about notability. It is only about article quality. Please read Wikipedia:In the news/Recent deaths if you want to contribute to these discussions. Schwede66 23:12, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
- Support Article is much improved and ready to go IMO. Nigej (talk) 05:25, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
Oppose Article is mostly a list of "bullet points". It needs substantial rewriting before posting. Nigej (talk) 12:45, 12 October 2023 (UTC) - This wikibio appears to have been revamped. Time for a re-review, please? --PFHLai (talk) 11:36, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- There's a IMDb source in the article, which is unreliable, and the lead needs work. Working on it. Tails Wx 20:58, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
- Posted Stephen 03:00, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry I was late to the party here. Yes I updated it :) Thank you for posting! ArleneHerman (talk) 21:02, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
October 10[edit]
Portal:Current events/2023 October 10 Template:Cob (Posted) RD: Brendan Malone[edit]
(Posted) Ongoing: 2023 Israel–Hamas war[edit]Template:Atop Template:ITN candidate
(Closed) Guatemalan protests[edit]
October 9[edit]Template:Cot Portal:Current events/2023 October 9 Template:Cob (Posted) RD: Jorge Lavelli[edit](Posted) RD: Charles Feeney[edit]
(Posted) Nobel prize in economics[edit]
(stale) Luxembourg general election[edit]
(Removed) Ongoing removal: Sudan war[edit]
(Removed) Ongoing removal: Nigerien crisis[edit]
(Posted) RD: Ted Schwinden[edit]
October 8[edit]Template:Cot Portal:Current events/2023 October 8 Template:Cob (Posted) RD: László Sólyom[edit]
(Posted) Kelvin Kiptum marathon record[edit]
October 7[edit]Template:Cot Portal:Current events/2023 October 7 Template:Cob (Posted) RD: Reiner Goldberg[edit]
RD: Lior Asulin[edit]
(Posted) Max Verstappen wins his third F1 championship[edit]
RD: Terence Davies[edit]
(Posted) Herat earthquakes[edit]
(Posted) October 2023 Gaza−Israel conflict[edit]
October 6[edit]Template:Cot Portal:Current events/2023 October 6 Template:Cob (Posted) RD: Maurice Bourgue[edit]
RD: Loren Cunningham[edit]
(Posted) RD: Jim Poole (pitcher)[edit]
(Posted) RD: Esme Timbery[edit]
(Closed) Simone Biles becomes the most-decorated gymnast in history[edit]Template:Atop Template:ITN candidate
(Closed) New PM in Vanuatu[edit]Template:Atop Template:ITN candidate
(Posted) Nobel Peace Prize[edit]
October 5[edit]Template:Cot Portal:Current events/2023 October 5 Template:Cob (Posted) RD: Kevin Coombs[edit]
(Posted) RD: Chris Denning[edit]
(Posted) RD: Taj El-Din Hilaly[edit](Posted) RD: Dick Butkus[edit]
(Closed) Exodus of Armenians from Nagorno-Karabakh[edit]Template:Atop Template:ITN candidate
(Posted) Nobel Prize in Literature[edit]
(Closed) Ongoing: Cricket World Cup[edit]Template:Atop Template:ITN candidate
(Closed) LGBT Rights in Mauritius[edit]Template:Atop Template:ITN candidate
October 4[edit]Template:Cot Portal:Current events/2023 October 4 Template:Cob (Closed) 2023 Sikkim flash floods[edit]Template:Atop Template:ITN candidate
(Posted) RD: Harriet Pattison[edit]
(Posted) RD: Claus Wisser[edit]
(Posted) RD: Pat Hays[edit]
(Closed) 2023 Chinese submarine incident[edit]
(Closed) HS2 cancellation[edit]
(Posted) RD: Wayne Comer[edit]
(Posted) 2023 Venice bus crash[edit]
(Closed) Nobel Prize in Chemistry[edit]Template:Atop Template:ITN candidate
October 3[edit]Template:Cot Portal:Current events/2023 October 3 Template:Cob (Posted) RD: Jacqueline Dark[edit]
(Posted) RD: Khoshbakht Yusifzadeh[edit]
(Closed) Siam Paragon mass shooting incident[edit]
(Posted) Kevin McCarthy ousted[edit]Template:Atop Template:ITN candidate
(Closed) Bed bugs infest Paris[edit]Template:Atop Template:ITN candidate
(Closed) Nobel Prize in Physics[edit]Template:Atop Template:ITN candidate
October 2[edit]Template:Cot Portal:Current events/2023 October 2 Template:Cob (Posted) RD: Richard McSpadden[edit](Posted) RD: Russ Francis[edit]
(Posted) RD: Francis Lee (footballer)[edit]
(Posted) Nobel Prize in Medicine[edit]
(Posted) RD: Patricia Janečková[edit]
October 1[edit]Template:Cot Portal:Current events/2023 October 1 Template:Cob RD: Jim Caple[edit]
(Posted) RD: Tim Wakefield[edit]
(Closed) Ryder Cup[edit]Template:Atop Template:ITN candidate
(Closed) 2023 Speedway Grand Prix[edit]Template:Atop Template:ITN candidate
(Closed) Teatre nightclub fire[edit]Template:Atop Template:ITN candidate
(Closed) 2023 Cauvery water dispute protests[edit]Template:Atop Template:ITN candidate
RD: A.K.M. Shahjahan Kamal[edit]
(Closed) 2023 NRL Grand Final[edit]Template:Atop Template:ITN candidate
RD: Richie Poulton[edit]
(Closed) 2023 Slovak parliamentary election[edit]Template:Atop Template:ITN candidate
(Posted) RD: George Reed (Canadian football)[edit]
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