Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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HK unregistered ip cult again

Please read Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1058#Please instruct how to deal with ip hopping, meat and suspected offsite canvassing from a lot of ip ranges from HK first.

• I think i stumbled them again by leaving this stuff in Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Dgtdddsx123#11 October 2021 as well as Template talk:China–Hong Kong border crossings (the rfc)
• Suddenly, the ip range 210.6.10.X that related to the above IncidentArchive1058
  • (210.6.10.148 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) Talk:List of lighthouses in China)
  • (210.6.10.130 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) Talk:Military of Hong Kong, Talk:List of lighthouses in China)
• despite the ip range is from Hong Kong, suddenly claiming i am offsite canvassing them (the ip user(s)) from Mainland Chinese forum (which i never did), which seem they mistook i am one of the "blue" political spectrum because i cannot agree on the "deep yellow" political spectrum wiki editing cult, so that trying to black mudding me

  210.6.10.118 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) Talk:2019–2020 Hong Kong protests Special:Diff/1050888402

  210.6.10.66 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) Template talk:China–Hong Kong border crossings Special:Diff/1050889100

• And then this guy, Dgtdddsx123 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), which i has stumbled in the SPI, unsure is genuine believe the ips , or WP:GHBH to try to enforce the controversy. Special:Diff/1051012890
• A more generic issue. Evidence in the LIHKG forum there is recruitment thread https://lihkg.com/thread/2168907/page/1, and indication of channel and bot for Telegram existed, for off site discussion of wiki matter and offsite canvassing. The link to the channel is dead so that it seems went underground by renaming the channel, but i can still screenshot the bot https://imgur.com/L7qmaSa The forum do have other thread that warn them do not sock , but seems more people still unregistered and summoned to wiki by offsite canvassing. This just mini scale of off site recruiting, just not escalated to those Mainland Chinese level yet, which led to this meta:Office actions/September 2021 statement.
• Just like @Ymblanter: said in ANI "[he] do not know what the best solution would be." The "ip union" coined by @Atsme: in the last ANI, just readily observable in Template talk:China–Hong Kong border crossings that i never saw a RFC has so many ips as SPA. So, what wikipedia should do on this off-site canvassing from the "deep-yellow" wiki editing cult? Matthew hk (talk) 10:13, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
• Also, Dgtdddsx123 just missed a block due to using sock, so that @Tamzin: should also leave the comment here that should give every new Hong Kong user an assumed good faith on they may not aware Sockpuppet policy of wiki, or not. Matthew hk (talk) 10:19, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

  Simple solution - the IPs need to register their accounts. They do not lose anonymity, they simply validate that they are not socking and are here to help build the encyclopedia. I'm of the mind that in the beginning, the advantage to IP editing was so passerbys could perform some quick copy editing on the fly without having to register but we're at a point in our history that it has become too much drama, and the ill-intentioned have made it an incredible time sink, not to mention what it is costing the project relative to credibility. Just my 2¢ worth, not calculating growing inflation. Atsme 💬 📧 11:57, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

  This is not at all a solution. One just got to respect the many different ways people follow to protect themselves. In compact metropolitans it's easy to have access to free internet connections, from coffee shops to shopping centres, and from train stations to buses. If people create their accounts it would be much easier to track down all their edits. 219.76.24.196 (talk) 12:41, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

  Do you mean IPs editing from Hong Kong or China with this edit summary - [1]? Would you please clarify? 118.140.125.85 (talk) 10:08, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• The orgiginal problem (discussed in the link in OP) was meatpuppetry at Talk:List of lighthouses in China and several related articles dealing with HK. Because these POV-pushing IP-hopping editors are anti-registration due to privacy concerns w/re the Chinese gov't, we managed to protect the article by semi'ing, but because of the unbelievable level of disruptive meatpuppetry at the talk I eventually ended up having to semi the talk page too. Honestly I think semi'ing one by one these articles, and if necessary their talks, is the only way to solve this problem. I truly hate to semi a talk, but it was just unbelievable. —valereee (talk) 16:12, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
  • @Valereee: Actually not registered and expose ip is the opposite side of concerning privacy. Apart from the off-site recruitment thread, the same forum do have people to warn people that registered and building reputation is key (and then yet lots of gossip of getting more Hong Kong people to selected as admin in zh-wiki). Just clearly the same ip range from the last ANI's meatpuppetry , now try to black mudding me off-site canvassing which i clearly haven't , and trace record at all Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Hong Kong i participated, there is no trace of any (pro-China) canvassing. And this accusation black mud me on my own political spectrum as well (I have one motive in wiki. Give me WP:RS; i am very supportive to use WSJ, FT to cite the Hong Kong protests, but pretty against to add POV bull shit that without RS or just propaganda. For the sake of Hong Kong democracy, not that way) . So, just leave the ip keep bad mud me, and the registered user as well that just escape the SPI block? Hong Kong people has the best thing to do as 惡人先告狀 (meaning), which over more than 10 years, I don't remember i was involved in any confirm canvassing, meat sock, and sock case, and the registered user just caught black handed. Note that the article 2019-20 Hong Kong protests was keep on WP:RM by different person that relatively new (~1000 edits), to try to POV-pushing that the protest is still live. Registered is still partially solving the problem. They will still act as a mob to try to POV pushing in rotation anyway. Matthew hk (talk) 21:44, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

    @Matthew hk, I think you're saying these IPs who are refusing to register an account are actually making themselves more vulnerable to goverment surveillance, and that registering would make them safer? I agree. But it is hard to convince them of that. They seem to think we are either in on the conspiracy or are simply naive. —valereee (talk) 00:50, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

    Valereee that's just because people are coming from very different places and have very different life experiences towards censorship and privacy protection. 219.76.24.196 (talk) 12:41, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

    I don't think that was a Mainland China forum and I thought that was you, Matthew. It's fine if that wasn't you and dude I do understand the reason why you simply cannot confirm or deny whether that was be you. My possition remains and is clear: I agree with what was said here on Wiki and over there in the private forum and I thank that person for he brought this up. 210.6.10.78 (talk) 13:24, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

    • And yes I agree with Matthew and Valareee and Atsme that people should really listen to their leaders, obey them and abide by the law. Say no to political POV pushing. 210.6.10.78 (talk) 13:28, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

      With comments like the above, I get the feeling that Matthew is being trolled here. @Valereee: Thoughts? -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 22:58, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

    • Tamzin we are indeed trolled by those people who are self-identitied “yellow” or the “umbrela” camp in the Hong Kong spectrum, as evident in the links Matthew quotes above. They do so in the name of so-called free speech, universal values and democracy. They just want to break law and politicizing all things. They don't know the public order and peace. 210.6.10.127 (talk) 13:15, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

    @Tamzin, quite honestly it's hard to decipher. I think some of these IPs are basically well-intentioned, but the vast majority are here to push a POV, and at least some of them are trolling Matthew and the rest of us. I do wish at least the well-intentioned ones would create an account, but for some reason there's huge paranoia about that w/re creating an account somehow making them vulnerable to discovery by the Chinest government. They don't believe anyone who tries to tell them creating an account will actually help prevent that rather than the other way around. —valereee (talk) 16:44, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

    @Valereee: Yeah, this seems to me like a case where a probably-valid filing is made a lot harder to parse by lack of clarity (which, before someone misinterprets me, I don't think is an EAL thing, just a matter of keeping things to-the-point). And then made worse by some of the responses being in less than good faith. Having booted this from SPI, I feel some duty to make sense out of things here, so, if I may, an analysis of the ranges in play here. We start off with the assumption that anyone accusing Matthew of off-wiki canvassing is trolling and is themself engaged in off-wiki coördination (or is one person hopping networks), which I think is a pretty justifiable assumption, but I'm happy to make the case for if you feel it's non-obvious.

    • 210.6.0.0/18 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)): The main one in Matthew's complaint, and in my opinion outright trolling, including in this thread. Could be given a few weeks off with limited (maybe no) collateral.
    • 219.76.0.0/19 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)): Appears to be involved in this based on this edit, but (assuming that it's not the same person as 210.6) I don't think has done anything blockable (but maybe worth warning).
    • 124.217.189.0/24 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)): Part of the trolling, and the overlap with 219.76 at Enping (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) makes me think still at least partly operated by the same person, while these edits suggest that the football edits on the same range may be coming from that person as well... But maybe better to wait and see.

    I see you've already protected Talk:List of lighthouses in Macau. I could also see a case for semi'ing

    • Template talk:China–Hong Kong border crossings (edit | template | history | links | watch | logs)
    • Talk:2019–2020 Hong Kong protests (edit | article | history | links | watch | logs)

    Anyways, hope this is helpful. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 17:35, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

    N.B. I linked 210.6.0.0/18 because it's the ASN range. Matthew is correct that all of the issues are coming from 210.6.10.0/24 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)), so perhaps that's a better range, if a block is to be made. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 23:09, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

    • Hi Tamzin. Since Matthew hk has called me troll I don't think I want to be involve with him any more . I just don't understand why Hong Kongers (presumably Matthew is) can just walked away like this. I will focus on my own area of interests and expertees and I will relieve myself from the talk page of China border crossings and Hong Kong 2019/20 protests. I have not followed the lighthouse things and I am not interested. Please remove me from the bullet dots above. Thanks. 210.6.10.90 (talk) 12:42, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

    My observation is that what's happening around Talk:Hong Kong protests 2019–2020 has had little connection with Talk:List of lighthouses in China, except that Matthew hk took part in both of them. It may not be reasonable to treat them as the same case. On the other hand don't think semi'ing any talk pages would be a helpful solution to the actual problem. It'd be just a way to pretend the problem don't exist (just because there'd be no way for it to be known). 219.76.24.196 (talk) 12:41, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

    Meanwhile would CU re Matthew hk be the way forward to look into whether those are people who Matthew hk recruited (and denied), Matthew hk's socks or meatpuppets, unrelated at all, or some people "blackmudding" him? 219.76.24.196 (talk) 12:47, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

    Two cents from just another passer-by: You gotta look into their global contributions, not just en-wiki. The account Matthew hk for example is actually more active elsewhere (not to mention his IPs, and sock and meatpuppet handles). 118.140.125.85 (talk) 08:39, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Commenting from the SPI side here, I don't currently see persuasive evidence that Dgtdddsx123 is the IP-hopper. I've marked the filing as {{moreinfo}}; if anyone sees good evidence, please do let me know at the SPI. I do think there's a decent chance of meatpuppetry or canvassing here, although I'm not sure I have the subject-matter expertise to opine, which is part of why I referred Matthew to ANI. This is the kind of meatpuppetry allegation that is hard to handle at SPI, since you may have legitimate editors who stumbled on something independently, or who were made aware of something from an off-site post but aren't actively colluding; easier for ANI to look at it as primarily a conduct issue. (As an aside, I'm not sure "Let's just ban IP editing" is a helpful take here; VPR is thataway.) -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 16:48, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

  Oh and as to the warning I gave Dgtdddsx123, standard practice for first-offense non-innocent sockpuppetry by a newbie is either a warning or a short tempblock. Since they hadn't actually !vote-stacked (just used one account on the article and another on talk), I elected to warn. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 17:53, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

  It just policy that i can't request CU to check the relation of IP and Dgtdddsx123 . Time will tell. Matthew hk (talk) 21:56, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

  That's too bad. 210.6.10.127 (talk) 13:15, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• Any admin can just block the range 210.6.10.X from edit and account creation (and block account that used that ip range recently) I don't think there is any need to assume good faith of that ip range anymore. It just vandalism . Matthew hk (talk) 21:42, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
  • What are you doing? You requested for our help , but as soon as you were spotted , you want to get me banned? It was not just me who came to your assistance on your request. One other forum friend has done so too. Are you just trying to get us all blocked? Are you actually siding with the LIHKG and TeleGram people? 210.6.10.90 (talk) 12:42, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

    210.6.10.90 before you go can you please tell us more about what had happened between Matthew hk and you? 118.140.125.85 (talk) 10:22, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• An interesting yet important point to note is that while Matthew hk, Atsme and Valereee believe that they have been doing the right thing the participants at Template talk:China–Hong Kong border crossings think quite the contrary. The same is true at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lighthouses. 219.76.24.196 (talk) 12:41, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
• Matthew hk has so far never demonstrated how the non-English off-site canvassing he mentioned and referred to as "pro-Hong Kong" or "deep yellow" is related to the three talk pages identified. It is not even known if that was targeted at the English version of Wikipedia, or if there had ever been any canvassing effort in general which is relevant to this version of Wikipedia. Chinese involvement (or in words of their statement in September, "infiltration") in the Wikipedia project, in comparison, had been something investigated and publicly acknowledged by the Wikimedia Foundation[2] and reported in the press.[3] [4][5][6] In that statement Maggie Dennis of the foundation had called what had happened "security risks" and concluded there were "potential persecutions"; the foundation had noted the problem as early as mid-2020.[7] 219.76.18.201 (talk) 15:42, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

None of that is directly relevant to this discussion. What exactly are you asking to be done here, 219? — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite

@HandThatFeeds: The ip just show up to request a block too as self confession as one of the not constructive underground / offwiki mob. Matthew hk (talk) 23:08, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks 219.76.18.201. I didn't know Maggie Dennis' recent statement nor the one from the Wikipedia Foundation a year ago. 118.140.125.85 (talk) 08:39, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Such threats are a genuine matter of concern that Tamzin, Valereee, Atsme and other administrators here cannot simply disregard. 118.140.125.85 (talk) 09:11, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Matthew hk can you please translate the screenshot you provided? Or at least copy and paste the text here so that it can be submitted to Bing or Google Translator? I just found it funny for anyone to suppose others can read in whatever languages. 118.140.125.85 (talk) 10:15, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

The Lihkg.com one appears to be just another message to encourage people to contribute in a certain topic/area. If you found anything problematic please elaborate and be specific. 118.140.125.85 (talk) 10:19, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Article Rescue Squadron is getting problematic

This project has largely just become a canvassing platform for a small group of hard-inclusionist regulars (namely Andrew, Dream Focus, 7&6=thirteen, and lightburst— just look at some of their dubious nomination summaries like “really?” “An effort is underway to delete the [Tuskegee] airmen” and all Andrew’s random pop culture inside jokes). This project also gives users inexperienced in AfD the wrong idea about what AfD is— namely that it’s almost inherently bad, that articles must be “saved” from its all-consuming maw, and that most nominations and delete voters are wildly indiscriminate and disruptive. I understand that it explicitly states it’s not a canvassing operation, but that isn’t an excuse when that’s how it both superficially appears and is treated by its main participants.

This isn’t meant to be a Wiki-political attack or just a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT— I’ve voted “keep” on some of their highlights and “delete” on others — but when a project is violating behavioral guidelines I can’t just let it sit there. Dronebogus (talk) 10:21, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

• This same conversation just happened on the ARS page in the shadow of a giant skeleton of an extinct dinosaur. [8]. If you accuse anyone of something, link to specific examples of it, instead of this vague wave nonsense. Dream Focus 10:30, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
• I had a look at some of these AfDs, including Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of feature film series with two entries, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of oldest living Academy Award winners and nominees, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of popes by age and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of water parks in the Americas and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Nobel laureates by university affiliation. All I see are wildly different opinions on whether or not we should have those articles; there doesn't seem to be any direct disruption or incivility other than basic disagreement. As for the Article Rescue Squadron, I agree that it doesn't really suit the purpose it was designed for; after all, if you want to rescue articles by improving them, simply go to WP:AFD and see what's there. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:42, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

  They haven't got more problematic though. They are just as bad as they ever were, and I'll be very surprised if this enquiry results in anything to rein them in. -Roxy the sceptical dog. wooF 10:47, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

• Note that the articles for Wikipedia lists mentioned were not listed on the Article Rescue Squadron request for help page. Just a lot of us for years have looked at the List Wikiproject's list of list articles nominated for deletion. And we can't visit all articles, just too many up for deletion each day to properly sort through. If someone wants to request help in improving an article or finding reliable sources o prove its notable, they can make a request. You can look at the current list of things and see where someone asked for help, but no one could figure out how to help them, and no one went to the AFD and posted anything at all. So it is not a canvassing platform. Just a request for help. Dream Focus 11:00, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

• I agree with Ritchie333 that the best way to improve articles nominated for deletion is to just go to AfD, and would add that the best way to avoid slogging through dozens of AfDs you have no interest in is to go to deletion sorting and put your preferred topics on your watchlist. The fact that anyone listing pages on ARS is doing so to oppose the deletion and no other reason means the ARS is cherry-picking for the purpose of aiding a particular wiki-faction rather than a particular nonpartisan interest group. I also think it’s problematic since on top of obviously encouraging canvassing it also encourages attacks on “the other side” due to its blatant pro-inclusionist bias. Dronebogus (talk) 11:15, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

• We're near the end of October and so far this month, just two articles have been listed at WP:RESCUE: Big John (dinosaur) and Erynn Chambers. I have attended neither of these matters and so have obviously not been canvassed in the way that the OP suggests. See WP:ASPERSIONS.
• As for the humour, the OP styles himself a WikiHunter on his user page: "... a Wikipedian who devotes his/her time to tracking, hunting and killing articles." See WP:POT.
• Andrew🐉(talk) 11:39, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

“… that no longer contribute to the herd” i.e. are bad. And I don’t help maintain a canvassing platform, which is what I’m accusing you of doing. Write whatever you want on your page within reason, label yourself whatever you like, just don’t contribute to whole projects dedicated towards pushing your agenda. Dronebogus (talk) 11:53, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

• In any case this is just an ad hominem diverting from my main point: it doesn’t matter if poor behavior is inconsistent or ineffectual, it’s still not good, and the ARS is a essentially a canvassing platform due to canvassing being the cherry-picking of editors for their opinions even if it isn’t in the form of an organized conspiracy. Dronebogus (talk) 12:06, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
  • Also, that’s an interesting summary you left when you reverted my routine noticeboard alert on your talk page. Always nice when someone’s idea of wit is making fun of my username. Dronebogus (talk) 13:59, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
• The ARS isn't the disruption it was in its heyday, when one member would slap their template on a bunch of articles and the other members would dutifully go through the list to go "Keep- notable. Keep- notable. Keep- notable." on everything. It's been defanged and is now mostly moribund. But it is and always has been a canvassing club and, although the community generally recognizes this, there's general apathy and indifference about actually doing something about it. Reyk _YO! 12:03, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
• I note that most of my AFD's seem to make it onto ARS (lucky me!) and then the pile-on of Keep !votes follow at the AFD. Whether that's because certain Users have me on their watchlists or just follow ARS I can't say. The Keep !voters seldom make any contribution to the page that they are so keen to keep. ARS is a thinly-disguised canvassing site. Mztourist (talk) 12:33, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
  • Agreed. The modern ARS is no wikipedia:Esperanza but it’s certainly a clique for inclusionist hardliners to target and complain about arbitrary AfDs they disapprove of and provide resources to promote their wiki-ideology (look at the top of Dream Focus’s talk page for crying out loud). Dronebogus (talk) 12:57, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
• Pile-on keep or deletes should not be an issue, because AfDs should be decided by strength of arguments and if a bunch of people show up and say "it's obviously notable! keep! It's obviously trash! delete!" with no useful content other than that, they should be treated as the low-effort arguments they are. If admins aren't closing AfDs because they're afraid of getting dragged to DRV all the time, that might be the bigger indication of an issue. There's effectively no way of stopping this kind of canvassing given the central notice approach of it, short of banning individual contributors or the notices themselves.
  (As an aside, the WP:NOTCLEANUP essay is absolutely out of touch with reality, because the only times any questionably-notable article, even ones languishing for years with all manners of tags on them, consistently get better is through the AfD process. People acting like nominating something for deletion is some sort of personal attack need to readjust their expectations, the same way no one should treat the existence of WP:FAR as an attack on Wikipedia's article quality.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 13:18, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
  • Why not just nuke the whole project and deny them a canvassing platform? Even Ritchie333, who was largely neutral, admitted the project is pretty unhelpful and pointless. Dronebogus (talk) 13:39, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
  • the only times any questionably-notable article, even ones languishing for years with all manners of tags on them, consistently get better is through the AfD process. Indeed. Some have cottoned on to this and are removing banner tags for having been on there for a long time. The point is to impede the identification of bad articles. Reyk _YO! 14:20, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Nobody else has made any personal attack, or complained about either WP:AFD or WP:ARS.
As to the article that is the new source of complaint, not the article it was when nominated for deletion. So the article and sourcing was vastly improved. What's your point? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:35, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

• Nobody’s talking about whatever you think it is, this about the ARS in general. Dronebogus (talk) 13:39, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
• I am neither a deletionist nor an inclusionist (which I think my record reflects), but I've experienced nothing but woe from ARS folks whenever their practices have come into question. So have avoided for years ever since. El_C 14:49, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
• I battled Template:Rescue for several years. I was blessedly without a computer during the time ARS was defenestrated. ARS is a great idea and has some really dedicated very smart users, but as a platform, it has a continuing reputation for canvassing and vote stacking. If all ARS did was source pages at AFD I would be a supporter as I once was. A WikiProject dedicated to a specific outcome in a formal process has tended to prop up pages that aren't ready for mainspace. BusterD (talk) 15:16, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

We've been over this repeatedly, if not constantly, again and again at WP:ANI. Carping isn't helping. But knock yourself out.

I wish you all well, and suggest that we build better encyclopedia together. We have more in common than you think. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:11, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

While obviously, I can't speak for BusterD (nor have knowledge of their experience with ARS), I do think that after a few years, I'm entitled to revisit and reflect on my view that ARS is problematic, when it is brought up for review. And I'd hope to be able to voice that absent a dismissive carping or knock yourself out exclamations. While I appreciate the well wishing and so on, I feel like unfortunately there's a (familiar ←indeed) dissonance with how the two sentiments contrast. El_C 16:32, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate the sincere well-wishes from User:7&6=thirteen. They are quite correct; we do share much in common. I don't want to see worthy pages deleted either. When I see such I endeavor to source the page, then make argument on AFD processes. I'd like to go on the record to say my experience with individual ARS members is almost entirely positive. I've grown to regard User:Dream Focus, whom I've long opposed in this particular case, as a wikifriend whom I trust and rely on. When that user asserts "Keep" I find that I almost always agree with them. Because of this I have learned not to doubt motives. But for the record, the many times I tried to raise issues with the squadron on project talk or template talk, the response was invariably like the one 7&6=thirteen provided above (repeatedly, constantly, again and again, carping, knock yourself out). We clearly have NOT discussed this issue to death. That we are discussing this issue yet again demonstrates that we may still have a problem all these years later (almost ten years after the deletion of Template:Rescue). A WikiProject as dedicated to deletion as ARS is to keeping would not be allowed to continue. BusterD (talk) 17:13, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

From the my perspective, this has been discussed to death. Your viewpoint might change if you were on the wrong end of the gun barrel. YMMV. In any event, discuss it as much as you like; I was not attempting to stifle your discourse. I wish you all well in this exercise, and hope for the right outcome. I would only note that I am in the great majority of the AFD discussions in which I participate, and I try to be a positive in building the encyclopedia. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 22:03, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Are these your AfD stats? [9] Vexations (talk) 22:11, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

As that only lists 2 AFDs, and none since 2013, then it's safe to say, User:Vexations, that are not his stats, given it's easy to see many more AFDs in his edit history. I'm not sure where you are going here. Nfitz (talk) 01:57, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

If someone makes a claim about their AfD stats, it's not surprising that someone else might want to look at them to see if the claim holds up. It's the first time i have seen afdstats return only partial results. Vexations (talk) 10:06, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

My guess is that this may be processing incorrectly because their name has an ampersand and an equals sign in it: both characters that are notorious for messing up URL query strings. jp×g 03:53, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• I'm another one who has fought this fight and given up. In 2019 at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 163#Shut down Article Rescue Squadron, I opposed shutting down ARS, but if that RfC were run today, I'd support it. Levivich 16:37, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
• Compared to the inclusionist/deletionist "wars" from around 2010, this is really nothing, but I think cautions that ARS should not be canvassing is merited. When ARS works - that is, they see an article at AFD and they actually find sources (whether at the AFD or included at the article) to demonstrate why the article should be kept - that's generally a good thing, though I think the members need to keep in both WP:RS/P and WP:SIGCOV factors (mere mention is not sufficient) for sourcing purposes. But that's at least a far better effort than when ARS was just doing mostly vote stacking way back. I generally think the better solution is Delsorting to draw proper interest, but ARS I think works on those that fall through the cracks in that process. --Masem (t) 17:31, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
• I'm not at all surprised that Project Arsehole has garnered these responses from people who I respect. What I want to know is is there sufficient feeling and motivation to somehow deal with their unpleasant general behaviour. I once decided to attend a wikimeet in London in order to confront Andrew, who was recruiting at the time. Looking at comments here, is there sufficient motivation to send the complete Arse project to the Admins workshop at Guantanamo Bay? -Roxy the sceptical dog. wooF 17:40, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
  • I wouldn’t use such rough language, but yeah, the ARS’s “gang of four” has had an attitude that’s decidedly smug and superior and does them no favors in the likability department. They clearly seem to think they’re invincible, which obviously isn’t true since I don’t believe any of them hold any real power outside of their little domain. Dronebogus (talk) 17:45, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
    • At least one of them was warned here about their aggressive behavior. Not sure if there was any follow-up. That's a side-issue to canvassing allegations, but it's not unrelated. ApLundell (talk) 18:58, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
• thirteen also left this delightful message on their talk page: “I find my involvement in this continuing brouhaha to be offensive. These folks are just doing an end around do-over because they don't like some outcomes at AFD. Indeed, you can look at their editing history to get an education about their motives. They want to kill the article improvers and kill the messengers. I won't do that.“ Dronebogus (talk) 17:49, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
• I'm another who has had very dismaying interactions with ARS at AfD bringing in blogs, crowdsourced, affiliated, irrelevant, or bare mention sources and arguing they prove notability, then backing one another up on those arguments. Everything that article rescue shouldn't be. It left me with a strong impression ARS is about winning rather than about finding quality sources and using them to improve articles. —valereee (talk) 18:14, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

• Correct. Apart from a minority of ARS editors, that's exactly what it has always been. Black Kite (talk) 18:21, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

• I want to second (or third) this last assertion from User:Valereee. This issue here isn't with the context of the work ARS does, it's the approach. ARS is a unique WikiProject in that its apparent core underlying assumption is: "keeping" pages=good; "deleting" pages=bad. That is, the premise of the squadron is interest in achieving a specific outcome in a formal process. Unlike any other project. All WikiProjects share the desire that pagespace be improved, with disinterest (not a lack of interest) in the final outcome. Because of the failure of the project's contributors to live up to their own project standards over the long haul, as expressed on their own project pages, the appearance is that of votestacking and canvassing. This is the point I made the very first time I objected to the usage of Template:Rescue a dozen or more years ago. BusterD (talk) 18:39, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

That El_C 18:45, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

• Nobody wants to see worthy pages deleted. That should be obvious to anyone. However, what certain editors in the ARS are - and have aways been - unable to comprehend is that it is equally problematic for an online encyclopedia to keep articles that are unencyclopedic and/or do not advance the sum of human knowledge. Where those certain members have misunderstood the concept of Wikipedia is that they believe that pretty much anything, regardless of whether it advances Wikipedia's mission, should be kept. Which, of course, is wrong. However, what are you going to do? If you deprecate WP:ARS, that isn't going to solve the problem of the actual attitude of those editors, is it? Whist I appreciate that sometimes, I have seen some of those editors actually improve articles (6&7 especially), most of the time it appears to be an ideological crusade against deletion. We don't need that. Black Kite (talk) 18:20, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

  Maybe we prohibit people bringing in BS sources to AfD? If you bring a blog, crowdsourced, affiliated, irrelevant, or bare mention source at AfD, it's grounds for a user talk warning, warnings to escalate? —valereee (talk) 18:53, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

  Sounds good, if you could apply it consistently and objectively. People differ on whether a sentence or two is significant enough. But I agree the blogs, advertisements, links to google hits for partial text matches, and title pages of books that don't contain the claimed material- that all needs to stop. Reyk _YO! 19:01, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

  Templating people based on bad AfD arguments is not a good idea. It will devolve into punishing people for "losing" at AfD, since what the AfD process does is evaluate people's arguments to see if they're good and evaluate sources to see if they're reliable/significant. If an AfD closes with "sources were not acceptable" you'll have people who make it their job to give everyone who !voted "keep" based on the sources a userwarning-shitsource template. We already have enough of a problem with groupthink at AfD as it is. It's important that we don't also punish people for expressing a dissenting opinion.

  We're also the number 1 source of knowledge in the English-speaking world and it's important that the processes we have for removing information are perceived as fair.

  AfD io one of our most well known "internal" processes; many people's first encounters with our governance structures comes through seeing an AfD tag on a page they likeThe deletion of Donna Strickland got a lot of flak after she won a Nobel prize and there wasn't an article on here for her. [10] Right now the CBC can blame that on murky systemic issues with the AfD process. But if we start punishing people for dissent, the AfD process looks a lot harsher to outside viewers and that negatively affects our credibility, regardless of whether or not be were actually justified in punishing people. Donna Strickland is such a good example of this because she didn't even go through AfD but yet the perceived credibility of our AfD process was still the subject of that CBC article & influenced the public's perceptions of whether or not we handled the Strickland situation well.. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 19:45, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

  I’d say a clique of four editors maintaining a whole project where they work to demonize the very notion of deletion is more problematic than “murky systemic issues” and letting those disruptive editors get to be devil’s advocate to try and appease people who don’t remotely understand AfD. Dronebogus (talk) 19:51, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

  There are middle grounds such as nuking ARS that aren't Template:uw-shittyAfDargument Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 16:42, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  • That’s lovely, but I still think ARS needs to get nuked or at the very least deprecated and locked to emphasize we will no longer be tolerating ideologically motivated wikiprojects. Thirteen and Andrew (and possibly others) should also receive some kind of warning or sanctioning for their general incivility. Dronebogus (talk) 19:13, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

  @Black Kite, if you take a look at the sources 7&6 added to Daniella van Graas during that AfD, you might be surprised. At one point they added a 22-second YouTube bio that itself was sourced to Wikipedia. The AfD eventually was resolved as keep after someone with access to Dutch sources came in and found some actual coverage, but up until then ARS, including 7&6, were arguing that appearing on fashion magazine covers and being listed in crowdsourced directories and affiliated websites (such as her bio on her agency's website) were proof of notability. After the AfD I and others had to go back through the bio and remove all the dreck that had been added by members of ARS. It was shocking. —valereee (talk) 14:38, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) I have already opined to excess here but now want to cut across the grain. I just made a joke on an AfD and pinged User:Dream Focus, throwing down a gauntlet. And they responded with pretty good sources as I anticipated they would. There is a baby/bathwater situation here. The editors who have been supporting ARS a long time (like DF and User:7&6=thirteen) are pretty skilled at finding sourcing. BusterD (talk) 19:34, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
• I rarely participate in anything major, I am mostly a gnome who curates a handful of pages. But even I have noticed how this group acts at AfD, with such problematic behaviors as pile-on voting and dumping a bunch of (bad) "references" with the declaration of "this proves notability!", when no, they do not at all. As well as writing walls of text in support of their hard-line inclusionist stance. I say nuke them and possibly restrict the four most active from !voting at AfD unless they also work to significantly improve the article as well. --SilverTiger12 (talk) 19:41, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
• I find it interesting that ARS often vanishes as soon as an article is kept. I've spent a fair amount of time sweeping up after their efforts, and find it annoying. They also don't seem interested in actually trying to save articles before they make it to the theatre in the round that is AfD. The most recent CCI involving Tuskegee Airmen is a great example of this. I have posted links to said CCI a number of times in discussions, and even on the ARS talk page. Yet they still don't seem interested until the spotlight's on an article at AfD. To me it feels like CCI would be a great point to get involved if you want to save articles. Intothatdarkness 19:50, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

• Can those claiming a problem kindly link to any AFD in recent years where this has happened, and specifically which editors you believe are responsible for doing this. I believe all of us participate in more AFD that aren't on the Rescue list, then the few things that are listed there, so please make certain it was also listed there if your argument is against the ARS. Dream Focus 19:49, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

  @Dream Focus, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Daniella van Graas. It eventually ended as keep (which I think was correct) once someone with access to Dutch sources came in, but I spent quite a bit of time after the AfD closed cleaning up after what ARS members had done. —valereee (talk) 14:48, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  A lot of people edited that article after it was nominated for deletion [11] so I'm not reading through each edit to try to figure out what you are talking about. That was back in 2019 so I don't remember. I only made one edit to add in what commercials she had done [12] and linked to where it list this information at a site that seems creditable. They have someone go and confirm information and put "confirmed" there. They also have pictures of the covers of magazines she's been on, so no reason to doubt this information. Anyway, its good a lot of people participated in the AFD and one found something that convinced you to change your mind about the article's notability. If no one had noticed and gone there and worked on the article or searched for sources, then it would be gone now. Dream Focus 15:05, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  @Dream Focus and the fact I had to go back and clean up the mess ARS had made adding absolute dreck as sourcing? You asked for an example of bad behavior. I gave it. If you want to see all the work we had to do and how long it took us, here's the diff. —valereee (talk) 19:55, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• I'll break my self-imposed moratorium from posting at WP:ANI to comment here.
• 1) The idea that any editor who believes in good faith that an article in notable but needs help finding sources to WP:PROVEIT can ask for help is a good thing. Now, the utility of such has decreased with all the wonderful templates in AfDs which have consistently gotten better over the years, but yes, there is still a thought that someone might need help.
• 2) I find it hard to imagine a world in which people can ask for help as in 1), without it also being a de facto invite for rabid inclusionists to jump in and pile on.
• 3) The existence of an ARS-like signal does not guarantee inclusionists glomming on to AfDs, but nor would the lack of existence of such a signal render AfDs immune from such influence.
• 4) Masem's observation, that things aren't as bad as they used to be, is spot on. I attribute this in part to a general realization that WP:BEFORE, reasonably executed and described, makes a nomination stronger.
• 5) As I've understood and practiced article rescue as a self-proclaimed curationist, I've never counted an AfD keep as a 'win'. I've always believed that improving the article was the way the encyclopedia won, and WP:DTQ was an idea whose time was long overdue and should be better recognized. Jclemens (talk) 21:47, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

These threads are pretty common. Here's a generalized synopsis: there's a good idea in there, surfacing some articles from the big AfD logs that are worth extra attention, and sometimes they do good work improving articles; other times it's a superficial keep club that spends more time attacking nominators and stoking drama than improving anything; there's never been a consensus to shut down the project, and if there wasn't in years past there's not going to be now; if there are problems with specific members, come to ANI with a pile of diffs. There are probably a couple sanctions that are long overdue, but not at the project-level. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 21:40, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: These last are pretty wise and learned responses. At the risk of sounding audacious, I would be impressed by a breakaway pirate/rescue group of editors who improved pages at AFD but pledged not to !vote on those improved page processes. Heck I would join and fully proclaim that group of disinterested at AFD but fully interested page buccaneers/volunteers as the real SRS (Subject Rescue Squadron)! There would STILL be claims of meatpuppetry. I really admire the work of these current rescue artists. No BS. It is certainly easier to come after a group in a generic way than to produce actual diffs, but that doesn't mean diffs couldn't be produced at some point. I fully diffed my protest about Template:Rescue way back in the long-ago. BusterD (talk) 22:33, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
• I would support any action killing off ARS. I think it can only serve as a canvassing platform. Some thoughts:

1. Unlike project pages, where editors with an interest or knowledge of a topic can be informed of an AfD to provide informed insight, ARS only serves to inform editors who are interested in voting keep in discussions. The entire premise of the project is singular: for garnering keep votes in AfDs. Can you imagine an Article Demolition Squadron?
2. I rarely see editors inform others on the AfD that they have listed an article on ARS. Apart from being really bad practice, I think it demonstrates that editors know exactly what they are doing when they list articles there (as much as I try to assume good faith). This also allows a parallel conversation (and 'keep' strategizing) about the topic to go on without the input of all AfD participants.
3. The comments against listing are often quite blatant in their canvassing see: could use some reinforcement and support and Anything additional you can do to help it pass AFC would be appreciated!. One particular frequent editor (who often speaks like a cryptic crossword clue) just gives quotations, references or puns vaguely related to the article because an explanation of why something is listed here is not needed - after all it is just a canvassing platform. Give your keep vote and move along.
4. There is even canvassing for DRVs on this page. Even the most generous view of ARS surely cannot see this as anything but inappropriate canvassing. Vladimir.copic (talk) 23:19, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

• "The entire premise of the project is singular: for garnering keep votes in AfDs" - that's easy to check by looking to see if the article was improved by any of the members who were in the AfD. The data is open and available. Check systematically ie. most recent 50 cases.
• "I rarely see editors inform others on the AfD that they have listed an article on ARS" - again that's easy to prove by looking at old AfD pages, divide by how many lack a notice and see what the percentage. 50 most recent cases.
• There are so many things wrong with that "canvassing for DRVs" discussion don't know where to start. There's a sub-text to the discussion involving bad faith, name calling and disruptive behavior. And you can find similar sorts of notifications in other mission-oriented boards. -- GreenC 04:20, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - not sure the big deal here. I see some good work by editors listed there improving articles. Which is more than I can say for many of those that participate in AFD - and is far less of a problem than those who manage to do 30 delete "votes", in 25 minutes - which is no where near enough time to do any research WP:BEFORE commenting. Nfitz (talk) 01:57, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
• Systematic deletion by editors not engaging in reasonable BEFORE is one reason ARS came into existence. Vladimir joked about a Article Deletion Squadron but you don't need a squadron because one person can create unlimited numbers of AfDs fairly quickly with little oversight as noted by Nfitz. -- GreenC 04:20, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Articles do not get deleted just because editors put them up for AfD. AfD is a huge process to ensure oversight from the wider editorship. Routinely AfDs are dispatched with a speedy keep in a matter of hours. On the other hand there is far less systematic oversight on the creation of articles by confirmed users (not that there's anything wrong with that).the Vladimir.copic (talk) 06:09, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• Huh There's an Article_Rescue_Squadron_Code_of_Conduct that admonishes you should use Template:Rescue list on the deletion discussion page when you list the discussion here. But that rarely seems to happen. Just sayin'. EEng 04:26, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

BTW it's 50% tagged in the last 10 AfDs. I might run more to get a better picture but we're closer to the truth then to say it's 'rare', repeated by multiple users here based on conjecture ("seems to") or copycat. I have no comment if 50% is ____ (value judgement), but heads or tails is not rare by definition. -- GreenC 06:18, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Yet when I did a spot check of the last 20 AfDs at WP:DSBUILDING it was 100%. I wonder what could account for such a vast disparity in an almost identical process. Vladimir.copic (talk) 06:42, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• Comment It seems that there is a clear consensus here that ARS should be killed off, despite the objections of its 3 or 4 most vocal members. Mztourist (talk) 04:57, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  I'm not sure I see such consensus here. Given the previous 4 AFDs on the subject, it isn't something that should be taken lightly. Also, I don't think this is the forum for such changes. If there's a desire to have that discussion, I'd think the place is WT:Article Rescue Squadron (and then perhaps a RFC?) I'm not really sure why we are having this discussion here. If there's an issue, it's long-standing. Nfitz (talk) 05:22, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  As much as I think that's the right outcome, and the very likely one regardless, an RfC would certainly be needed, though I'm not sure where. But not here. An established Wikiproject can't be killed off in 3 hours at ANI. Iridescent is wise in these matters -- what's the right forum? EEng 05:41, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  WP:VPR is really the most logical space for such a discussion: this is definitely something that should be weighed by the community at large, and hosting on the project talk page is less likely to accomplish broad involvement and obviously would influence the balance of perspectives, insofar as the question presented is the net value/appropriateness of the project itself. Obviously the project should be notified (and notification of particular users with an ongoing interest in the project should not be regarded as canvassing, imo) and there's no harm in adding a WP:CD listing even if it goes somewhere highly visible, but this is more or less exactly the type of issue that WP:VP is meant to be a forum for. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 05:53, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  Or maybe Wikipedia:Wikiprojects for Deletion?. EEng 06:00, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  Given this growing consensus (see SNOWBALL) can we wrap up this ANI quicker and move it to an RfC or noticeboard where a proper discussion and vote on deletion can be done. Or do we need to wait for this to close? Seems a bit of a waste for everyone to blow off steam here and then have to rehash the discussion in a week’s time? Vladimir.copic (talk) 12:45, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• While I tend to be a deletionist these days, ARS' mission is a noble one and I would oppose shutting down that forum. However, the conduct of some of their members should be scrutinized by the community, perhaps ArbCom, as it violates AGF and other policies, creating useless noise (for example, with votes that routinely cite sources based on Google hits, ignoring WP:SIGCOV and so on). Resucing articles is great, but trying to torpedo AFDs through a thinly veiled violation of WP:AFDNOTAVOTE is much less so (again, to be clear, I don't think most of the members of this project are guilty of such an attitude, but there are some vocal bad apples that need reining in). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:26, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  Doesn’t matter when the the project is dominated by four very vocal bad apples. Dronebogus (talk) 11:40, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  Hmmm, I can only think of one editor there who displays bad jugdgement and battleground behavior again and again. But I think this is a matter for ArbCom, not ANI. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:37, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  Although I agree that the problem has become too intractable for the community to deal with, or want to deal with, I worry that enough sitting arbs have had tangles with the ARS members in the past and will need to recuse themselves, leaving only ARS-sympathetic arbs left to vote. Reyk _YO! 12:41, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  Isn’t that just MORE of a reason to torch ARS? And Piotrus, would you mind “naming names” about who you are referring to? Dronebogus (talk) 12:47, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  @Dronebogus I dislike naming names per WP:ASPERSIONS, but I would be willing to provide exhaustive evidence regarding the editor I am concerned with if an ArbCom regarding practices of RS members is accepted. I will also add that the behavior of this editor has been subject to several prior discussions at AN and ANI, all of which led to more or less 'no consensus' as to what can be done; hence I believe ArbCom is the only way forward. I further predict that this discussion here will be closed as 'no consensus' either. If anyone wants to see something done rather than pointless talk, please file a motion at ArbCom. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:12, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  That's a bridge to cross when we case is proposed. I don't think that a bit of 'tangling' should bias ArbCom, but we will see. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:13, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• Compilation of problems with ARS members judgement - The following is largely based off comments I just made on the ARS rescue list (didn't realize this discussion was open): I repeatedly find myself questioning the use of the Article Keep Squadron. Some of the articles listed here are indeed worth being kept, but I get the feeling sometimes that this project tries its best to challenge the notion at WP:ARTN that "no amount of improvements to the Wikipedia content will suddenly make the subject notable". Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Attack on HMS Invincible is probably one of the worst examples. Some ARS editors would rather support copyright violations and make outright lies than risk losing an AfD, see Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2021 October 5#File:Lena Horne with Tuskegee airmen.png. It also stings when one does more research into the sources than the ARS regulars and comes to a very different conclusion, such as at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pretty Nose (2nd nomination), where two ARS members asserted without evidence the subject played a commanding role in a historic battle (still no evidence of that) and a third advocated outright ignoring the notability policy. See Talk:Mac Ross#Birth for questionable research practices of an ARS member trying to acquire confidential birth records over the phone from a county registrar. Here we have an ARS member withdrawing their keep vote in favor of paid promo article (alongside many a sock) Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Iman Farzin only because it was "pointless" to oppose the snowing consensus, not because they could admit they were wrong. Here we have an ARS member suggesting we use blogs as sources: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/William Mahlon Davis. Here we have an ARS member suggesting sources which do not discuss the topic at hand: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Piedmont bioregion. Here we have an ARS member show a complete lack of understanding of the purpose and importance of WP:VERIFY: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Willie H. Fuller. Even if these are all good faith mistakes (some I have a hard time believing are), I seriously question the judgment of ARS more than I think I should for a project ostensibly dedicated to improving articles, not just retaining them. -Indy beetle (talk) 08:48, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  Iman Farzin, William Mahlon Davis, and Attack on HMS Invincible had 7&6=thirteen show up and no one else. Piedmont bioregion had Andrew as the only one to show up and vote keep. The ARS was not even notified about File:Lena_Horne_with_Tuskegee_airmen.png. Working on a different article, Lightburst argued about its removal, I noticed this, went there, and commented. Turns out an old photograph from World War 2 was in fact not a copyright violation. Someone referenced it to a book, but obviously the person used a historical photograph. On 21:18, 5 October 2021 you nominated it for deletion and at 06:37, 6 October 2021 you agreed it was fine. Then you state above that "Some ARS editors would rather support copyright violations and make outright lies than risk losing an AfD". Ridiculous misrepresentation of what happened. Dream Focus 09:25, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  Couple of things here, DreamFocus. Perhaps its subjective, but I do consider the multiple ARS members acting poorly across different pages connected by the single thread of ARS listing to be an ARS problem. Also, I entirely reject the notion that I misrepresented the Horne photo situation. Lightburst uploaded the photo as a way to shore up the Willie H. Fuller article, which was at AfD at the time. Thus this is an ARS related matter. Lightburst repeatedly lied to assert it was a US Gov photo and wrote in the description "Military promotional photo" (I'm bolding to show I stand by it) despite no sources indicating that. After repeatedly re-adding this licensing template but meeting opposition from myself and Mztourist they changed to a different rationale (see revision history) saying it was PD-US-no notice. They repeated in the file discussion I opened that it was "clearly a military promotional/propaganda photo published freely" (again without evidence) and that it was "published in the United States between 1926 and 1977" despite the only sources they provided showing it being published in the 2010s. It was only after a lot of back and forth that Lighburst found a source which showed it was published in 1945 (and in a newspaper at that, no evidence it was as US Gov photo). The only plausible reason for them not providing it earlier is that they were making assertions about the rights status of the photo without actually knowing what the status of the photo was beforehand. This seems to be a part of ARS' MO of throwing enough shit at the wall in the desperate hope some of it will stick, which is a terrible way to write articles. It's why an ARS-involved deletion discussion like the ones for Attack on the HMS Invincible, William Mahlon Davis, and Willie H. Fuller involves other editors reminding ARS members that blogs and self-published sources (Find-a-Grave) are not reliable sources. ARS seems to only encourage this behavior. I will say for your part, I have found you to be the most responsible of the ARS regulars. -Indy beetle (talk) 09:55, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I have only had two meaningful interactions with the ARS, here and here (which continued here).

1. Talk:Livestock guardian dog#Merger proposal, 7&6=thirteen posted an emotive notice on the ARS rescue list [13] and ... Lightburst [14] and Dream Focus [15] arrived to oppose, neither offered any reliable sources or policy based rationale, just opposes. This was the article at the time, aside from the clear unreliability of many of the sources NONE of them even mention the article’s subject, not even in passing. What resulted was hours of wasted editing hours over months (including having to run an absolutely ridiculous RFC).
2. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ratonero Murciano de Huerta, again 7&6=thirteen posted a notice on the ARS rescue list [16]. Dutifully Lightburst arrived to oppose [17] and what followed was the pair tag teaming to cram as many UGC and SPS as Google would spew forth as well as clear equivocation and non sequitur claims. Finally a non-ARS member presented two RS to the discussion and it was withdrawn. But ... then 7&6 posted again rescue list [18] about attempts to remove the utter garbage from the kept page and within three hours Lightburst reappears [19] and more drama ensues. Again, hours of wasted effort over a month.

Was the ARS founded with noble aims? Yes. Has it been hijacked by a core group who use it to subvert Wikipedia’s processes and etiquette? Absolutely. Should it be disbanded? Yes. Cavalryman (talk) 10:59, 25 October 2021 (UTC).

• I did not attend the Ratonero Murciano de Huerta AfD so no canvassing there again. But just look at the outcome – the nominator withdrew after conceding that the topic was notable. So, the ARS rescue of that topic was correct and was vindicated. The fault there was bringing it to AfD in the first place. See WP:POT again. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:55, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• So you tried to delete a perfect valid article, others showed up to argue with you, and you then withdrew your nomination. Elsewhere you insisted without evidence that "mountain dog" only referred to Livestock guardian dog, and that any species with "mountain dog" in its name must be a livestock guardian dog. I'm still uncertain if this is accurate or not, and would like someone with a college textbook or link to a website of a recognized authority on this subject to state. What you link to only shows part of the discussion, most of it was below the section linked to. Dream Focus 11:58, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I think this discussion should include Arse's dePRODding behaviour. They routinely and unapolagetically remove PRODs without discussion or explanation because ARSe. This has meant that it is more and more difficult to remove the dross that sometimes appears as an article. I have been obliged to apologise to Good Faith participants at AfD for even bringing some crappy article that needs to vanish from the face of the project. The arrogance of the Gang of Four is exlemplified in this diff, from this very discussion. They're correct of course, I've seen this discussion here quite a few times over the years, and seen the results. Perhaps this'll end with another "+ Sound of Crickets +" close, it wouldn't surprise me.

On the whole, from what I've seen, the Gang of Four seem to edit acceptably in their respective areas, and the ideals of the Project are attractive. When acting on project matters they have corrupted the ideals. I'm not certain that just killing off the project is the answer. A more acceptable answer to this may well be a community imposed lifetime Topic Ban for the Gang of Four from deletion discussion, construed like something incredibly broad, thus removing the opportunity for them to continue this disruptive behaviour, and continue contributing positively. Just a (real) suggestion that I want to run up the flagpole and see how it flies. -Roxy the sceptical dog. wooF 13:48, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I have also noticed their dePROD'ing behavior. Mutliple times I have PRODed pages that were clearly non-notable, only for someone (normally Andrew) to dePROD with no good rationale. Generally I abandon my attempt after this because I have neither the time nor experience to bring articles to AfD. --SilverTiger12 (talk) 14:02, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• You are referring to one guy who people argue about deproding things regularly. I can't recall having deprodded anything except recently an article for the co-creator of a game that sold 30 million copies and had done other notable work in the game industry, and I deprodded an article I created which is now at AFD but others said it should be kept, only the nominator saying to delete it. I did not post to ask for help at the ARS either time, nor did anyone else from there show up to participate. This whole gang of four nonsense needs to stop. The overwhelming majority of edits we do are separate entirely. Dream Focus 14:13, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Ahem. BusterD (talk) 14:46, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I agree ARS is a form of canvassing. Listing an article there draws the attention of editors for "influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way". Agree with what was said above by valereee and others - they collaborate to "win" by any means and then disappear without actually improving the article. MB 16:12, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: In ANI, Democracy is two wolves and one sheep voting on what's for dinner. I am loathe to come into this forum. Regarding the "four very vocal bad apples" that the OP has mentioned... 7&6 is one of the best editors I know, just ask him how many DYKs he has had. Recently I collaborated with him on several articles. El C thinks he is snarly? If being snarly was a disqualifying factor on the project many of you would be out based on this thread alone. And AndrewD keeps the PROD process honest, and pardon me... if I read it right in the OP's opening statement - AD jokey? Really? I am not sure there is anyone who knows more about the history of this project. Dream Focus - to my knowledge has never showed up to an AfD to blindly ivote. DF follows the "Lists" AfDs - and so do I. I like navigation tools. I often collegially follow editors I admire - many more than just these three "bad apples".

I come across many articles that I do not think deserve deletion while deletion sorting - and some with zero WP:BEFORE work like this. I am not sure why some editors marry themselves to the first notion they have. In other words, I have been a part of AfDs where a good editor will withdraw their nomination after we improve the article. Sadly, some noms like MZTourist treat it like a win or lose batter. Cavalryman has done this as well - in one of his own examples above, he eviscerated an article that survived his own AfD nomination - I moved on and it remains a stub because that is what Cavalryman preferred.

I read above where Buster thinks we should have a "Deletion squad"? where in WP:5P is that idea represented? And Indy Beetle...tsk tsk. I once heard a lawyer say someone was a liar, and he was much more diplomatic than you...he said they were "less than truthful". Sadly- the only reason you wanted the photo deleted was because it added notability to Willie H. Fuller - you remain married to the idea that Fuller should be deleted. The photo was a military promotional photo depicting Fuller with a famous singer on her USO tour. Calling me a liar in bold is probably a PA. But no worries, if the PA is about an ARS member there is no such civility expectation. It is however in WP:5P4 for all of the other non-ars editors.

I just returned from a one year absence and found several Tuskegee Airmen nominated for deletion. So maybe my post on ARS was a bit testy. Also...Thanks Piotrus! I know I have been on the other side of a few AfDs with you, so it is big of you to say what you did. In conclusion, four editors cannot make something notable and many of you in this thread are not AGF. FYI: 91 articles were AfDd Saturday, 72 articles Sunday, and 59 already today. Not even including files, templates, prods, modules, and portals. My AfD ivotes may be an inconvenient truth for some of you so I post it here. I am not married to a "keep" ivote as some of you have said.

Spoiler: the two wolves will vote to eat the sheep for dinner - every time. Lightburst (talk) 19:01, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• @Lightburst: Can you please provide a source that it was a "military" photo? We're still waiting. The only thing we uncovered is that it was published in newspapers and syndicated by the Associated Press. If you feel I've lodged a personal attack, please open an ANI about my behavior. I'm confident in my actions, and I don't think they need a revolving set of explanations until we find one that coincidentally suits my purposes. -Indy beetle (talk) 19:19, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

It is a moot point. Dead horse material now. Anyway your PA is not ANI worthy. I enjoyed collaborating with you on another Tuskegee Airman - I thought we collaberated anyway. You never responded to my post on your TP. Lightburst (talk) 19:28, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes I think we worked together smoothly on that one. Sorry about the lack of response, I think something came up in RL when I read it and it shortly thereafter slipped my mind. -Indy beetle (talk) 00:33, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

It is clear that many people are concerned. Is the concern about canvassing, or is the concern about a Gang of Four editors who are each disliked individually? User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 20:05, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Those are the only two choices? Levivich 20:08, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Remember your conjugation. One editor you don't like is "ignoring consensus", a few editors you don't like is "canvassing". User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 20:13, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• Another Example I stumbled on at ARS last year. List of accidental electric shocks on railways in Romania was put up for AfD. I think the title tells you all you need to know about the article. Of course dreamfocus swoops in with a KEEP using arguments you are told to avoid. Two days later they list the article on ARS asking if anyone has any sources for this topic. From this sequence, it is hard to believe any WP:BEFORE was done before the initial vote on the AfD and if it was done it didn't yield any results. This really tests the limits of assuming good faith. In my opinion this is an issue both with individual editors and with the ARS platform which encourages and supports this kind of behaviour. Vladimir.copic (talk) 23:24, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  So I posted on the ARS Anyone know of any government reports or other sources giving significant coverage of this problem? for this as well as the same time another request for List of train surfing injuries and deaths saying the exact same thing. We have a lot of articles like this at Category:Lists_of_railway_accidents_and_incidents. One article was deleted, the other was not. Different editors then showed up to these two AFD afterwards. This should prove there is no canvassing since you don't see us all "swoop in with a KEEP argument". If they saw one request then they saw the one under it made at the same time, but they didn't show up at both to participate, they looked over the situation and decided for themselves. Dream Focus 00:10, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  The point is that I can only deduce from this sequence of edits that you either voted keep before you had done a WP:BEFORE or voted keep after you had done a WP:BEFORE that had not turned up any sources. Both are as bad as each other. This isn't about canvassing but about the way the squadron participate in AfDs. The determination to argue for keep is made before any research into the topic is done. Vladimir.copic (talk) 00:28, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  This should prove there is no canvassing since you don't see us all "swoop in with a KEEP argument". – Even the Article Rescue Squadron knows a lost cause when they see one. EEng 01:35, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  And yet all of us go alone into AFDs at times where everyone else has posted Delete, and we post Keep if we believe it should be kept, lost cause or not. A regular member post a request, and no one else shows up to participate, that happening quite often. Everyone thinks on their own, don't always agree on things, and never just show up to vote because someone else did. Dream Focus 01:45, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  You still haven't addressed my concern. Oh well. Vladimir.copic (talk) 02:02, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• The last time I think I ever got involved in or looked at an AFD in depth and felt the decision was wrong, really goes in line with what the user who brought this problem about AFD up. The article was just saved because of so called reliable sources, when those sources they called reliable were really YouTube videos from the subject of the article itself, news site where users registered users have the ability to upload their own article, and a video game blog. Somehow, it seems another AfD only turned the page into a redirect, and the content of the article with its unreliable sourced content has been copied to the redirect page target. I think there should be some form of balance of power added, where a SysOp ArbConm has the final word on the outcome. I never heard of a SysOp ArbCom going against rules. Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 01:43, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Truth in Labeling

This thread is labeled "Wikipedia:Article Rescue Squadron is getting problematic". I think that implies that something is new, or that something was different in the past. The Article Rescue Squadron was controversial between 2007 and 2009, as is evidenced by the record of previous attempts to delete it. Has there been a golden age in between when it wasn't problematic? I don't think so. Maybe "WP:ARS is still problematic" is more accurate. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:57, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Possible Actions

I see three-and-one-half possible actions at this point. First, there has been discussion, that has made it clear that the ARS has been controversial for at least fourteen years and will continue to be controversial. We can close this thread with no conclusion. Disposition one-and-one-half is that we can continue this discussion for another week or two weeks, and restate what has already been stated, and annoy a few more editors, and then close this thread. Second, a sixth Miscellany for Deletion nomination can be made. My own guess is that it will result in No Consensus, but that is only my guess. Third, this is a dispute that divides the community, and that the community has not resolved in fourteen years. We can ask the ArbCom to open a full case concerning the Article Rescue Squadron, and concerning its proponents and its opponents. My own guess is that such a case will result in a few editors on both "sides" being either warned or sanctioned, and that it will leave the community divided, because the community consists of many different editors with various different philosophies. That might just be another way of closing this dispute with no consensus.

So my recommendation is to close this thread with no conclusion, but other opinions may vary (as they also do in deletion discussions). Robert McClenon (talk) 15:57, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• I say close this thread, take it to deletion again (the 5th time was me jumping the gun so you should probably ignore it) and if that results in no consensus then take it to ArbCom. We need to stop sweeping this under the rug and shrugging, that’s what’s helped foster the toxic, holier-than-thou attitude the main participants have towards delete voters and deletion in general. Dronebogus (talk) 16:10, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
• I agree close the thread, with no opinion about outcome per sensible User:Robert McClenon. If User:Dronebogus wants to be the latest to hunt white whales, more power to them. BusterD (talk) 16:36, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
• WP:MFD is definitely the wrong venue, as it is for deleting pages and when we shut projects down, we don't delete the pages, we mark them historical. Arbcom isn't going to decide whether or not ARS should continue to exist. They can investigate the conduct of specific users, but they can't decide whether or not we have a specific WikiProject. And even still, I think they'd decline because we have yet to have a "gang of four" ANI (individuals have been brought to ANI, but never the group, AFAIK), so this doesn't clear the "community can't handle it" hurdle yet, until there's at least one community thread about it. The options, in my view, are (1) focus on specific editors with an ANI report seeking TBANs of some sort, or (2) focus on ARS as a whole with an RFC to mark it historical. (I'm not sure which one is better.) Personally I see no reason to rush to close this; let editors discuss so long as they want to discuss. We are still getting new comments from new editors at this time. Levivich 16:40, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
• I'd have thought the best action is to sanction individual editors if they are violating guidelines. Looking at the project itself, there's enough non-controversial articles there leading to article improvements. Even if an article is deleted, I don't see trying to improve it first is a terrible thing. Personally I've improved articles during, and then failed to "vote" Keep because it's not there. Nfitz (talk) 00:14, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
• I wasn't going to comment in this thread at all, but I have to note the futility of supposing that anything is going to be done here. I've certainly had my run-ins with members of the ARS (several of them, as I expected beforehand that they would, turned out to oppose in my RFA, with DF saying that "I don't really think this person is a good editor"), and I remember well the bad old days of Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles/A Nobody and Ikip/Okip and Benjiboi. My impression is that now there are only a few ARS hangers-on who behave problematically at AfDs and that their membership in ARS isn't the real problem. Anyone who repeatedly advances in AfDs "sources" that reflect unexamined, irrelevant Google hits or are otherwise inappropriate for use in the articles themselves, or who repeatedly !vote in AfDs without a justification in policy, should be brought up for sanctions here or in some suitable venue. If we can weed out the bad apples, there's no need to jettison the barrel. Deor (talk) 21:16, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

I see I was not on the project much when your RFA came up. But I always look at article creation and AfD stats. I state my criteria as: Admins exist to protect content and content creators. If you demonstred that with your edits, I would have been a yes. There is one at DRV now where several admins say they do not care who argues a rationale - they will apply their own interpretation. The thread may be as long as this one, and going nowhere. But the thread exists to refute what you said above. I am more concerned with delete ivoters who say "I am not going to look at the article". Bring me the sources and list them here. And The RFA is another perceived slight from 7 years ago. Lightburst (talk) 21:24, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

It escapes me how some DRV "exists to refute" what I said, but I don't expect uniform coherence around these AN venues, as a rule. Deor (talk) 21:59, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

@Deor: @Deor: (sorry that was not a good link) Forewarn - mind numbing read. Read the XfD and the review to get a a lesson in "doesn't matter what is said by anyone in AfD." Or at least that is my take. Wikipedia:Deletion review#List of Nobel laureates by university affiliation Lightburst (talk) 22:22, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Close attempt

• I've undone a decidedly precipitate close of this thread. [20] While it's clear that resolution of this problem will have to take place elsewhere, right now people are contributing their ideas and opinions here, and there's no reason it shouldn't continue, at least for a while. EEng 19:10, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  EEng, I disagree with the revert. When it's clear that resolution will have to take place elsewhere, discussion should be pushed there as soon as possible. Given that several editors here were calling for a close, I do not think you should have acted unilaterally in reverting it (the most extreme form of challenging a close, compared to commenting beneath it or at my talk). I won't reinstate it myself right now, but if other editors feel that the close is warranted, I think they would be justified to put it back. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 20:16, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  • When it's clear that resolution will have to take place elsewhere, discussion should be pushed there as soon as possible
  • several editors here were calling for a close – "Several editors" don't constitute a steering committee.
  • I do not think you should have acted unilaterally – It was you who acted unilaterally. People were still actively commenting, including some calling for action here at ANI against individual editors, and other discussing what the right venue would be.
  • challenging a close – A close is a reasoned evaluation of a discussion that has run its course, not someone deciding for the rest of us that we've discussed enough.
  • commenting beneath it or at my talk – No need to waste time discussing whether others are allowed to discuss. But I've commented at your talk page now, as requested: [21].
  • I won't reinstate it myself right now – Saved me the trouble of reverting again.
  • if other editors feel that the close is warranted, I think they would be justified to put it back – The bias in a collaborative project is decidedly in favor of continued discussion over squelching.

  EEng 01:40, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  Closing a discussion is not necessary squelching it; in this case, my aim was precisely the opposite—to, as I said in it, help facilitate further follow-up resolution efforts. I'd point you to an essay I wrote a while ago, WP:Settle the process first. In this case, keeping the discussion would be an invitation to argue about process and venues rather than the underlying issue. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 02:07, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  It's incredible you're still trying to debate this. Your intentions were good but you shouldn't have done it. To be honest you're getting to be a bit more worried about process and rules than maybe is helpful; see User_talk:EEng#Template_editor_right. EEng 05:54, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  Oh, my dear Lord! [22] EEng 18:47, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• Some of this might spin down to actions taken against individuals. -Indy beetle (talk) 19:20, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
• I am copying the contents of Sdkb's attempt at a close here. Even as this discussion continues, I feel it will be helpful for participants or uninvolved readers to see an assessment of the conversation so far:

Despite being open for only a day or so, this discussion has already drawn substantial input and taken a clear direction, so I am closing it to help facilitate further follow-up resolution efforts.

Participants here have found consensus that the current operation of WP:ARS violates the canvassing guideline, and that the behavior of many of its main participants has been detrimental to the encyclopedia. However, there is no consensus on a particular remedy, with many participants expressing the view that ANI is not a venue in which a decision to deprecate or restructure a WikiProject should be made.

Given this, the next step should be to begin a discussion at a different venue. There was agreement that MfD would not be the appropriate venue but limited discussion about what would be appropriate; as a bartender's close, I would suggest a CENT-listed discussion at WP:VPR as a reasonable neutral venue. Ideas for reform raised here that could be considered, among others, include deprecating the project, enforcing a requirement that editors who bring an AfD/DRV discussion to ARS notify the source discussion of that action, prohibiting ARS members from !voting in AfDs brought to the project (limiting its focus to improving articles), etc.

Some editors here argued that the problems derive more from the current members than intrinsically from the project. ANI is the appropriate venue for discussing behavioral issues about individual editors, and those may be brought up in future individual-focused threads if they continue. (non-admin closure) {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 18:17, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Text above pasted here by Firefangledfeathers (talk) 20:04, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Great summary as a help to further discussion. Not a good justification for cutting off discussion. EEng 01:43, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• Support suggestion that editors coming in from ARS can only improve articles, not vote. That would be huge. Like literally I'd join ARS if that were the rule. —valereee (talk) 20:17, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• Good close attempt, shame it wasn't allowed to stick. As more opinion is apparently wanted, the Robert McClenon analyses looks mostly spot on, though it may be more accurate to say the rescue squad has always been controversial, rather than problematic. For me its the deletion process that is inherently conflict prone. Theres always going to be folk objecting to the destruction of other peoples hard work, dissolving the ARS would not change this. See here for how deletionists have been viewed by journalists New York Times, the Guardian and various other reliable sources. Reyk's correct the ARS is now mostly moribund. Despite retaining several extremely impressive active members, the projects is a pale shadow of the mighty force it was back in the naughties. I see no need for action. But if there is to be an RfC, I'd suggest it should be neutrally framed. I.e a simple "What do about the ARS?" Option B could be to dissolve the project, while option A should be to commend it, or at least the most active members, such as the Colonel (Andrew D), Dream, Lightburst and 7&6=thirteen . Their scholarship, helpfulness, and coolness is most impressive, even in the face of mockery and talk of confronting them at London wikimeets , etc etc. (Yes I did read that 7&6=thirteen added some low quality sources to the Daniella van Graas page back in 2019. So the thing is 7&6 had less than 1,000 edits back then. They've since much improved and fully merit being mentioned alongside editors like Dream & the Colonel.) FeydHuxtable (talk) 20:25, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
  • The fact that you, a member of the Squad, are bringing up articles from over a decade ago to justify your project’s now-increasingly-undeniable purpose as a partisan interest group dedicated to waging war on “deletionists” is a stronger argument for dismantling the ARS than I could ever come up with. Singling out and demonizing an entire group of editors, and maintaining an organization (no matter how moribund) dedicated to WP:HOUNDING them for their perceived “attacks” on the encyclopedia, is absolutely contrary to the spirit of the entire Wikimedia Project. Shameful. Dronebogus (talk) 21:00, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

You have probably added enough hyperbole to the thread. i would ask you to do actual research instead of assuming facts not in evidence. Lightburst (talk) 21:15, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Interesting coming from someone who never refuted the accusation that they lied about an image source to strengthen their position. Dronebogus (talk) 21:23, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

You do know what military propaganda is? Put Elvis in uniform, take photos. Bring big star (Lena Horne)to the military base, take photos. Rise repeat. Putting the wrong FUR on a photo is not catastrophic anyway, I had no intent to mislead anyone. We regularly change the WP:FUR. The point is it is a public domain photo and those who favored deletion wanted it deleted so it could not portray Willie Fuller in the article. I know that is an inconvenient truth, but that is the timeline. The photo was removed from the Fuller article, but not from the Horne. That should tell you all you need to know. Inconvenient truth. - Not the Al Gore stuff. Lightburst (talk) 21:37, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Show us the evidence instead of acting like we’re so stupid as to not know what propaganda is. Dronebogus (talk) 21:43, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

User:FeydHuxtable 7&6's coolness was totally on display here: [23]. Mztourist (talk)

No, I wanted it deleted because you had failed to demonstrate WP:BURDEN in your upload to prove it was PD. I care about article quality and the integrity of Wikipedia. -Indy beetle (talk) 00:36, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I doubt many long term editors see it in terms of waging war on deletionists, and sorry if it seemed I was demonising them. Even as an editor with quite hard core inclusionist views, I see quality control and even some content deletion as essential functions. There's always going to be some friction between those performing said functions and those more focused on content retention. I dont see how dissolving the squad will substantially change that, though it would end a long established vehicle for article improvement. FeydHuxtable (talk) 21:30, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I wish all members of ARS had your humility and clearheadedness. Sorry if I overreacted a little myself. If more squad members behaved like you, perhaps it could be reformed. But right now it just seems like a canvassing club for a small band of smug, superior inclusionists. Dronebogus (talk) 21:34, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I thought the close was fine and think this discussion should be moved to where actions can be taken if consensus allows. Can’t see the point in keeping open a discussion where people can air their gripes without action being taken. Vladimir.copic (talk) 20:49, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

• I propose to close this thread and open a new ANI against the four most active members of ARS (Andrew, Thirteen, DF, and Lightburst). The project (and its associated problems) is currently centered on them, and if you remove them from the equation it wouldn’t be hard to unceremoniously shut it down and file it as “historical”. Dronebogus (talk) 21:13, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  Perhaps list the past 100 things on the Rescue list, and a chart showing how many of us participated in each one, and the results of the AFD. Or getting stats showing the last AFDs each of us participated in, and what percentage of them were on the Rescue list. Most of the ones I find myself in aren't. If you want to make a case you need evidence. But the evidence will clearly show we do not all regularly show up at the AFDs on the rescue list. You can find random examples here and there from years apart to try to mislead people of course. Dream Focus 21:33, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  right? I do not think Dronebogus has done his research. Seems to be interested in demonizing and frantically lobbying. from what I have read above, after you started the fire Dronebogus, you can just sit back and watch your work. A good pyro always watches their work. No more accelerant needed. Lightburst (talk) 21:44, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  Is that all you are capable of? petty insults, agreeing with your ARS buddies, and the Chewbacca Defense? Dronebogus (talk) 21:53, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  Wake me up when you are done attacking and disparaging. I am building the encyclopedia.What are you doing? Do some research - everything is available, every edit, every interaction. Lightburst (talk) 21:59, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

  • Not every editor feels their worth is determined by making as many pages as humanly possible. I’m sorry if adding links, PRODing articles about strip malls and organizing anime and manga related files on commons isn’t glamorous enough for you. In any case your insufferably dismissive, passive-aggressive behavior during this discussion is arguably bad enough for a ANI of its own. Dronebogus (talk) 22:05, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Can you two cut it out? jp×g 00:36, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

My apologies. Dronebogus (talk) 08:47, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

LB did not edit Nov 2020-Aug 2021, but here are some AFDs from the past year in which AD, DF, and 7&6 !voted. I invite editors to pick some at random and see (1) whether they all voted the same way, (2) whether they all voted keep, and (3) whether these were all tagged with the ARS template.

List of AFDs w/3

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Adelita (turtle)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alec Sutherland
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alexander Skinner (surgeon)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Andrew Gower (5th nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bob Lampert
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chandos Hoskyns (British soldier)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chinook Display Team
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Detecting Earth from distant star-based systems
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ED-209
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/George M. Campbell
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gun serial number
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Harold John Ellison
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Harry F. Bauer
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Imperial Guard (comics) (2nd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jack Schlossberg (2nd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jerry Palmer
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John C. England
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Ely (surgeon)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Raymond Evelyn Stansfeld (2nd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John T. Eversole
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fictional counties (4th nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of living Medal of Honor recipients
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of military disasters (4th nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of people who are left-handed
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of people who died on the toilet
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mac Ross
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Maurice D. Jester
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Native Plants Journal
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Snoopy's siblings
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/William B. Ault
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Willie H. Fuller
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zero waste agriculture

Levivich 00:32, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

The first one listed https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Adelita_(turtle) shows Andrew voted Keep, the next day I said Merge, then after others found reliable sources giving it significant coverage I changed my vote to keep. We don't just show up and yell Keep for no reason or always agree with one another. What about the ones from that time period where it was just two of us or only one of us? Seems like a sampling that would project a misleading conclusion. Dream Focus 00:41, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

It seems to me like it'd be easier to look at their AfD statistics (where this information is all aggregated automatically). Here, for Lightburst for example, we can see that in their last 167 !votes (of 2547 AfD edits in total), they made 118 keeps/speedy keeps, and 49 deletes/speedy deletes/merges/userfies/redirects, which is about a 70% to 30% ratio. Per my analysis of all AfDs since 2005, the historical average is that around 16% of AfDs are kept. If you voted 70/30 completely at random on every AfD, you'd expect to have 11.2% of your keep !votes close keep, 4.8% of your delete !votes close keep, 58.1% of your keep !votes close delete, and 24.9% of your delete !votes close delete: ergo 36.1% of your !votes would align with the final decision. However, Lightburst's match rate is 65%, which is twice that. This implies, at the very least, that they are not just spamming "keep" on everything. Whether or not all of these people form a complete voting bloc is, well... people tend to do that. jp×g 03:51, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Here's a list from the same time period of some AFDs in which only 2 out of 3 participated. Again, see if you kind find any where the two votes are different.

List of AFDs w/2

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Air Canada Flight 018 Stowaway incident
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alex M. Diachenko
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alexander K. Tyree
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/American IronHorse
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/AqBurkitt
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arthur V. Ely
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bert C. Edmonds
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bibliography of Greece
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Big John (dinosaur)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bolt (fabric)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bunyan Randolph Cooner
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Case study in psychology
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cheese sandwich
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Conrad Bangkok
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cultural depictions of Philadelphia
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Damon M. Cummings
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David Atkins (Royal Navy officer)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Deborah Andollo
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Disha Ravi
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dog & Bull
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eco-terrorism in fiction
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Edward C. Daly
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Edward Henry Allen
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Eugene Blair
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fiction based on World War II
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Frederick Curtice Davis
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Frederick Cushing Cross Jr.
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/George Campbell (1827-1904)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/George L. Knox II
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gibraltar in popular culture
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gus George Bebas
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Harold Jensen Christopher
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Harry L. Corl
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heads Up (video game)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heavy equipment modelling
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Herbert A. Calcaterra
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hilan Ebert
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Horace A. Bass Jr.
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Howard Franklin Clark
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hubert Paul Chatelain
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hybrid roller coaster (2nd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Institute for Social Ecology
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Invitational education
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/J. Douglas Blackwood
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jealousy in art
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Drayton Baker
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Joseph Doherty
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John R. Borum
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John R. Craig
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Raymond Evelyn Stansfeld
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John S. Blue
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jones (third baseman)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kenneth W. Durant
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kristoffer Domeij
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Landspeeder
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Larry Harris (U.S. Marine)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of bombs (2nd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of common World War II infantry weapons
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of controversial deaths in the military
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of current longest-ruling non-royal national leaders
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of deaths due to COVID-19
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Easter eggs in Tesla products
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Egyptian inventions and discoveries
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fantasy worlds
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of feature film series with two entries
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of female supervillains (4th nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Fields Medal winners by university affiliation
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of films set around Easter
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of international common standards
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of largest nebulae
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of male detective characters
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of modern production plug-in electric vehicles
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of most expensive and valuable assets
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Mountain Dew flavors and varieties
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Nobel laureates by university affiliation
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of notable surviving veterans of World War II (2nd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of oldest living state leaders
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of peace activists
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of stock characters in military fiction
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of surviving veterans of the Spanish Civil War (2nd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of tallest buildings in Augusta, Georgia
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of tallest pyramids
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of U.S. flagged cruise ships
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of United States-themed superheroes
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of vampire traits in folklore and fiction (2nd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of weapons in the American Civil War
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lists of Ancient Roman governors
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lubi-Lubi
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mango (Saturday Night Live) (2nd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mark Hanna Crouter
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Melissa VanFleet
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Milo Evarts
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mr. Game & Watch
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paul H. Carr (2nd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paul Hunn (2nd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pegity
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Performance (textiles)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Piedmont bioregion
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Priyanka Joshi
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Reginald V. Smith
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Robert Boyd Brazier
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Robert E. Brister
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rocket (comics)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Russell M. Cox
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Satronia Smith Hunt
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stereotypes of Germans
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thomas J. Bray
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Timothy J. Edens (3rd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tom Rees (airman)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tom's Ice Cream Bowl
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Trose Emmett Donaldson
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/W. Mark Lanier (2nd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wikimedia movement
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Willard Keith
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/William Finnic Cates
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/William W. Creamer

There are some that are not "keep" !votes (like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of controversial deaths in the military and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of most expensive and valuable assets), but I think they're the minority, and I've yet to find one where one person says "keep" and the other says "delete", although there are probably one or two out there like that. Still, I think the overall pattern of block-voting is undeniable. And that's just the past 12 months. If I were to show you 2019 and 2020, it would be much worse (I've looked already). Levivich 01:27, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• The first one I clicked on is Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Jealousy_in_art and you will notice Andrew said to keep the article, I did not, but instead posted a link to a New York Times article and asked a question about the topic. At Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_controversial_deaths_in_the_military Andrew said Delete, and I said to Draftify. List_of_most_expensive_and_valuable_assets Andrew said to Redirect it, I just asked a question and didn't vote. Dream Focus 01:34, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Hey Levivich. Glad we haven't had any negative encounters recently. Question: Doesn't is stand to reason, when an article is selected for rescue, it is because someone thought it was rescuable. Just as when someone chooses to AfD it is because they thought it was hopeless. So I will challenge anyone to renominate any that we saved. I think they are bulletproof - but maybe I am wrong. If any should not be in main space delete them. Lightburst (talk) 01:46, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• I literally only found out about this WikiProject yesterday over at the dinosaur skeleton deletion attempt, and now I found this discussion where deletionists are trying to delete the project? Surreal inside-baseball Wikipedia style. The editors who are active on the project seem to have provided a good venue for editors concerned about the assembly line of articles being put up for deletion daily (myself, I try to not venture into AfD more than a couple times a week if that, a depressing place, and taken this odd attempt to silence fellow Wikipedians probably should look at it more often), kind of but not quite like how the fringe-theory people have fashioned themselves a place to serve as a free-speech Wikipedia information forum. Only good faith solution is to just edit and let edit, leave the thing standing with no further attempt to cancel culture it, and if there isn't a similar hangout for the deletionists then there certainly should be. The two can hold a summer softball game and picnic, and get along just fine. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:03, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
  • I literally only found out about this WikiProject yesterday and you already know what the Only good faith solution is. I've been at this for three years and I don't know what the solution is. What's your secret? Levivich 05:33, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
    • Maybe new eyes on the topic, which see nothing wrong in a group of editors who recognize that way too many interesting, popular, and well sourced pages are put up on AfD. Take the dinosaur skeleton page for example (my Halloween costume problem solved), the topic and article have been expanded and clearly saved, but nope, editors still want it gone, as if it's competing for the last bit of storage space on the server. Often a group of articles from topic trees are under the ax (wanting to cancel many of the Tuskegee airman, for example, falls under the category of WP:"are you kidding me?"). So finding out that a group is around which tries to rescue pages which, even when seemingly rescued, are stilled deemed unworthy, and then the next day finding this discussion which wants to cancel that group? Like I said, new eyes. Letting long-term WikiProjects do what they set out to do is the essence of assuming good faith in fellow editors. Pointing to some potentially savable AfD pages not only doesn't seem like a bad thing, but arguably is an essential part of the greatest existing all-volunteer collaborative check-and-balance system (except for ants, who run a pretty tight ship). Randy Kryn (talk) 03:10, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
      • Calling Article Rescue Squad a Wikiproject is an extreme stretch. Literally the only thing it does is serve as a central notification system for articles that it's members want people to vote keep on. It does absolutely nothing other Wikproject do though. --Adamant1 (talk) 03:44, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
        • No, it's quite similar to other projects which focus on articles with a particular status. WP:AFC looks at articles which are drafts; WP:NPP looks at articles which are new; WP:ITN looks at articles which are in the news and so on. Andrew🐉(talk) 13:58, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
• With regards to the recent stream of tuskegee airmen nominations, the 4 discussions with substantial ARS participation were all closed as keep or no consensus. A 5th one which the participant Lightburst forgot to post on the ARS noticeboard was summarily deleted. The rest were deleted. The 'improvements' by the ARS lot in those 4 were underwhelming in the best of cases, if not an outright farce. Dream Focus would only go through the trouble of driving by each discussion and dropping the first low-effort web source (be it primary or secondary) that appeared on the search screen. Lightburst would promise SIGCOV and instead bring to the table only a roster of names, or some NOTNEWS fluff. There was one in which 7&6=thirteen invented page numbers in a book to claim that the subject had significant coverage.

  Anecdotes aside, the most common features here were (1) Lightburst's mountains of routine coverage, passing mentions, and wikilawyering; (2) the ubiquitous "Keep per ATD and PRESERVE", without any regard for what is actually being preserved; and (3) single-line vote-stacking, such as that of FeydHuxtable here--"Keep, unconvinced by the delete analyses" (not that you'd ever be convinced otherwise, of course). No method, nothing useful, a waste everyone's time. Avilich (talk) 02:20, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

It's crazy that inventing pages of a reference out of whole cloth is just being treated as another wacky antic of ARS and not a serious problem in its own right. ApLundell (talk) 05:51, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• Suggestion while the idea "that editors coming in from ARS can only improve articles, not vote" sounds appealing I don't see how it would work in practice. How could you tell if someone other than the poster at ARS is coming in from ARS? That won't solve the canvassing concern as an inclusionist will post a page at ARS and then the rest of the gang will vote in the AFD. Better to just shut down ARS, which is described as "moribund" anyway and watch what happens at AFDs. If there are concerns about the behavior of people at AFDs then those can be addressed by individual ANI cases. As can be seen above already, the Gang of Four/Five/Six are throwing out various examples of how they don't all !vote the same. Let's remove the canvassing forum of ARS and take a clean slate view of AFD participation. Mztourist (talk) 03:36, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Fully Support Let's move this discussion to the appropriate place with some teeth. We don't need this discussion to continue ad nauseam. There seems to be pretty strong consensus that this should be put to bed one way or the other. Vladimir.copic (talk) 04:50, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• Support It's clear there is a consensus that action needs to be taken, but also that this isn't the right place to do it. So the discussion should be moved to where it can be resolved instead of continuing here endlessly. --Adamant1 (talk) 05:00, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
• Support closing the thread without consensus; this seems increasingly less like an opportunity to reach a conclusion about a difficult issue and more like a trainwreck. BusterD, El_C, valereee, Black Kite, and Levivich seem to be of the opinion that ARS has some serious issues. Dronebogus and Vladimir.copic aggressively posit that ARS should be destroyed; Roxy the dog doesn't seem to have expressed any specific opinion about policy, but has called people "arseholes". Mztourist and Indy beetle, who also support the shutdown of the ARS, both !voted "delete" in several recent high-profile AfDs around which this dispute seems to be vaguely centered. Other participants, on the anti-"shut down ARS" side, include Andrew , 7&6 and Lightburst, who (if I recall correctly) !voted "keep" in those same AfDs. However, Dream Focus, Ritchie333, David Fuchs, Rhododendrites, Masem, Nfitz, GreenC, Piotrus and FeydHuxtable seem to feel that there is not a major issue with the ARS that justifies shutting it down... I have trouble looking at this mess of a thread and seeing consensus on any point other than "it's not going anywhere productive". jp×g 05:41, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  Definitely add me to the "shut it down" faction. The unquestioning, uncompromising belief that every grain of sand on the beach deserves its own Wikipedia article is an embarrassment to the project and a drain on its resources. List of accidental electric shocks on railways in Romania -- you must be joking. EEng 06:36, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  Awwww, I wanted to join this project as a Editor. Then that would make me an ARSE. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 06:54, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  I'm not sure if I'm qualified to comment here -- we might need some sort of an expert on jokes that weren't funny. But I guess it's hard to connect this with what's going on here -- sure, it might be dumb for people to think we need an article about every grain of sand on the beach, but are there currently people refusing to compromise on it? jp×g 07:35, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  I'd say advocacy for keeping List of accidental electric shocks on railways in Romania is a pretty clear signal that reasonable compromise isn't possible. EEng 02:35, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

• My perception of this whole thing is somewhat informed by a 4-year wiki-break I took while real-world stuff left me with little free time. I have never been in either the inclusionist or deletionist camp, in fact my AFD record is pretty much 50:50 with about 84% accuracy. Those who know me know I rarely tack WP:PERNOM or KEEP per !votes onto the end of discussions that are foregone conclusions. Before my wiki-break I constantly butted heads with ARS members, especially over their appetite for what I called "diplomati-spam" (pure WP:OR articles about bilateral relations between countries with nothing more than incidental interactions like having leaders attend the same dinner one time). One of the creators took refuge under the wing of the ARS and absolutely used it as a mechanism for protecting the articles he "owned". Having the ARS arrive at an AFD discussion had an immediately chilling effect; nominations had an almost zero chance of succeeding once the ARS template had been added to a discussion. Editors need only mention the ARS and then sit back and watch as a flurry of !keep !votes miraculously appeared; testament (of course!) to the critical nature of the article in question. Fast-forward 4 years, and the tables have absolutely turned. Now we have admins protecting deletionists who spam AFD logs with nominations with no hint of WP:BEFORE. We have deletion nominators complaining about !keep !voters who "don't do enough to improve articles", despite that being their job, again per WP:BEFORE. We have admins closing AFDs with statements that would clearly have been better as contributions, but apparently super-voting is now tolerated. And we have admittedly deletion-driven ("spam fighting") guidelines stretched to the point of Dalí-like surrealism so that they can be applied as broadly as possible in a thinly-veiled effort to delete anything that certain cliques don't like. And in other cases guidelines are applied so narrowly as to not allow inclusion of anything (with novel interpretations that include assertions not even mentioned in said guidelines). The more things change, the more they stay the same. Four years ago I probably would have encouraged the neutering of the ARS, but the pendulum has already swung way the other way and I see no value in doing so now. St★lwart¹¹¹ 08:42, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

It's not the job of the nominators to improve articles. Nor is it the job of the keep voters to either. AfD isn't cleanup or whatever. The only reason improving articles has came up in this discussion is because ARS members have repeatedly said that it's what the forum exists for. Despite the overwhelming evidence that it isn't improving anything. Otherwise, I doubt most people would care. Let alone use it as a talking point. I know I wouldn't. --Adamant1 (talk) 09:05, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. This isn’t about whatever this is, it’s about whether the ARS is a disruptive/unhelpful organization. Dronebogus (talk) 09:10, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

AFD is not cleanup because WP:BEFORE presumes that any possible clean-up has happened by the time someone arrives at AFD. AFD is also not clean-up because it shouldn't be used to delete articles about notable things that simply require some work. Again, because WP:BEFORE encourages people to do that work... you know... before. Its absolutely the nominator's job; we couldn't be more clear about that.

And okay, then I don't believe that in the current context of AFD they are disruptive. Certainly not to the extent they were in the "bad old days". And whether or not they are unhelpful is irrelevant. We don't take action against those who are unhelpful, otherwise we'd lose half the admin corps (hell, we don't even take action against those admins that are disruptive).

Ironically, your best chance of having the ARS deleted is to declare them an organisation, claim they fail WP:NCORP, and be done with it. St★lwart¹¹¹ 09:36, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

What you said is an oxymoron. If a "nominator" could do the work to get a clearly notable article up to the notability standards before nominating it, then there wouldn't be reason to bring it to AfD in first place and we wouldn't even know about it. --Adamant1 (talk) 10:04, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, there would be no reason to bring it to AFD. That's the point of WP:BEFORE. St★lwart¹¹¹ 10:45, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Doing a WP:BEFORE isn't a magic wand that makes quality sources miraculously materialize. Sometimes (really most of the time) they just don't exist. Which is why people who brow beat nominators about it tend to subsequently provide garbage references as evidence that a WP:BEFORE wasn't done. --Adamant1 (talk) 11:00, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Not a magic wand, no, but it is a requirement. A significant portion of the time, nominations are based on a lack of in-article sources, decade-old tags, or a misunderstanding of a particular SRD. In a small number of cases (very small) its actually a question of sources or source quality and WP:BEFORE isn't an issue. In my experience, WP:BEFORE is most often cited when none has been done and a discussion is on its way to a WP:SNOW close. St★lwart¹¹¹ 11:31, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

So your saying ARS members are acting dishonest and repeatedly providing inadequate sources when they could just find quality ones instead? Weird position since I thought you were defending them, but OK. --Adamant1 (talk) 11:47, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Let me just correct a misconception here: we've actually had discussions about whether BEFORE is strictly mandatory. Consensus was that, although it's considered good practice, it's not strictly obligatory. The reasons have generally boiled down to BEFORE being too often used to attack nominators, and the impossibility of telling just how thorough a search has been. The AFD I linked above? The crappy sources dumped into that discussion and presented as evidence the nom didn't do their due diligence are the sort of red herrings a conscientious nominator would have found and dismissed as obviously irrelevant. This sort of thing happens all the time and it's why nobody really flogs BEFORE anymore unless the nominator has been genuinely negligent or you want a reason to kick him in the teeth for nominating garbage you want kept but can't otherwise defend. Reyk _YO! 11:43, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Okay, as an example: we recently had a slew of seemingly rapid-fire nominations. So rapid-fire, in fact, that mere minutes (literally, 1-2 minutes) had passed between one nomination and the next. It turns out the nominator (a well-known deletionist) was running through a category of articles historically tagged as being of questionable notability. All of them were tagged 10+ years ago. They said so. Most of them were about notable things. Most were WP:SNOW kept. But that editor's idea of category clean-up was to just rapid-fire nominate them for deletion. There wasn't enough time to open Google, let alone do a search; they clearly hadn't done a WP:BEFORE search. In fact, they openly admitted as much. And yet in those discussions we still had the same bloc of deletionists show up and drop off a drive-by WP:PERNOM !votes. And those who pointed out that WP:BEFORE clearly hadn't been done were attacked and ironically told to stop making personal attacks (because apparently pointing out disingenuous and disruptive behaviour is a personal attack if the person doing those things is a popular deletionist). One of those people was blocked by an admin who found the most tenuous of reasons to tie it to something else. Another desperately tried to relist nominations by the same person (despite consensus being clear, and a lack of WP:BEFORE also being clear), presumably in the hope enough drive-by per-noms would provide justification for deletion. St★lwart¹¹¹ 12:04, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Sounds like the process worked fine and as intended if the articles were speedy kept. Articles that shouldn't be deleted weren't deleted. So what? I don't really see what the issue there is. Also, a drive-by PERNOM vote that will be ignored by the closer has way less of a negative impact on the project then someone verbally harassing a nominator based on a hunch and then being dishonest about references. They aren't even comparable. --Adamant1 (talk) 12:17, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

The point is that without groups like the ARS, there is a much higher liklihood that disruptive nominations like those will stand, there will be nobody to do the nominator's job for them, the nomination will be supported by a flock of PERNOM deletionists, and the article will be deleted. That nominator has been active for years; if that nominator's recent track-record is anything to go by, plenty of articles that shouldn't have been deleted, have been deleted. Nominating something for deletion, and thereby claiming to have completed WP:BEFORE checks, is also being dishonest about references. St★lwart¹¹¹ 12:33, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I's seriously bizarre how the pro ARS people act like it's existence is the only thing keeping the AfD process from spiraling into deletionist chaos or similar doomsday nonsense. There's plenty of other keep voters out there besides the four ARS members that are currently active and it's not like they can't still participate in AfDs if its depreciated. None of your problems hinge on there being a central forum to canvass people from. --Adamant1 (talk) 12:51, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I think we agree there. St★lwart¹¹¹ 13:42, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

If this is about Boleyn's rash of ill-advised nominations and Hullaballoo Wolfowitz's block for calling her a misogynist, I'd argue said block isn't tangential or a stretch at all. Someone making even the most silly and wrongheaded nomination isn't a licence to call them any name you like. And no, I don't believe previous blocks for screaming abuse at people is a tenuous connection. Reyk _YO! 13:54, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Then you know it was a three year campaign, not a "rash". And you know he referred to "systematic misogyny", because a female-led band was nominated for deletion simply because it hadn't been worked on. And you know it changed the make-up of that discussion, to justify relisting rather than closing as SNOW and tacking another onto an already woeful record. Its the same from both "sides", and has been for years. St★lwart¹¹¹ 14:10, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• Stalwart clearly has a point. As a fresh example of out-of-control deletionism, here's another nomination of a FA for deletion. I attended another AfD for an FA the other day and so nominating FAs for deletion is now the new normal. Andrew🐉(talk) 15:25, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  If all ARS members were blocked or banned, the result would be 0 AfDs of featured articles turning out differently. --JBL (talk) 22:11, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

True. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:15, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• Many articles are improved. Sometimes stubs have been turned into much larger articles. Textile performance for example went from this [24] at 4 thousand bytes when nominated for deletoin to 78 thousand bytes now. It then got put on the main page of Wikipedia. Wikipedia_talk:Article_Rescue_Squadron_–_Rescue_list#DYK_for_Textile_performance. The edit history [25] shows 7&6=thirteen did a lot of work on it, as did others. There are many examples of that. Probably need to collect them and post them somewhere. If someone had a bot to check file size of an article when it was nominated and when the AFD ended, that'd be useful. I don't remember how many articles worked on by any of us ended up on the front page of Wikipedia. Be good to compile a list of that as well. Dream Focus 09:44, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Sometimes articles are improved by ARS. But a higher percentage of the time that's not the case and the whole thing always comes with a ton of unnecessary drama. That said, I do think the project would have value if it didn't focus on AfDs and put it's time purely into "article improvement" instead, but at this point it seems like the main contributors to ARS are just in it to right great wrongs or whatever though. Which doesn't serve anyone. Even if articles are occasionally made better by way of the nonsense. --Adamant1 (talk) 10:04, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• I’ve noticed a lot of the complaints seem to be focused around Lightburst and Thirteen’s recent behavior. DF and Andrew can be obnoxious sometimes but generally they’re a bit better behaved in my experience. Perhaps we should just open an ANI about them and divert this away from a wiki-political brawl about who’s more “evil” this week. Dronebogus (talk) 09:13, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  I think that it would be a good idea to focus on the one or two most problematic members. --JBL (talk) 22:13, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• As an additional data point, I looked to see what was listed on WT:ARS and came across Laura Hoffmann and my immediate thought was "what makes soccerway.com and worldfootball.net reliable sources?" and "why do we need three citations to cite Laura Hoffmann (born 12 August 1991) is a German footballer who plays as a defender for SpVg Berghoven" and "why shouldn't we create an article on the team first?" The AfD closed as keep, but not a single editor who advocated keeping did any work on the article, so people like me coming to the article fresh get no benefit whatsoever. If this is the best the ARS can manage, I think serious consideration should be given to marking it historical, given its reputation seems to cancel out any theoretical benefit. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:15, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  That wasn't put on the rescue list, nor do I see anyone from the article rescue squadron there. With such a large number of articles sent to AFD each day, a lot will be kept for various reasons, you can't just blame every article you don't like on us. Dream Focus 09:27, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• I partly agree with Stalwart's analysis but, like other participants, I question its relevance. AfD culture has changed slightly, and for the better. But what he interprets as favoritism towards deletionism I see as just a just a bit more balance. Not like the bad old days when you'd make a detailed, well thought out argument for deletion and closing admins would flick you aside contemptuously in favour of throwing themselves worshipfully at the feet of any keep voter who wandered by to assert they like the article and that the nominator is an asshat. The personal attacks have been a constant feature of ARS methodology from the beginning. In this discussion for instance we have the ARS calling Dronebogus an arsonist, which sounds uncomfortably like the "nazi book-burning" rhetoric of a decade ago. Elsewhere I have drawn attention to the ARS calling people racists and shills and been dismayed at the effort and persistence it took to get the admin corps to even acknowledge the problem, much less act on it. I don't know if this reticence was the result of favouritism, or just an understandable reluctance to become the targets of a vengeful ARS screech campaign themselves.

Now, regarding the abuse of WP:BEFORE as a cudgel to beat nominators with, we have here an example of an ARS editor dumping a load of bogus sources into the discussion. Inspection showed them to be a lot of bilge- some of them little more than partial text matches to the title. He then goes on to claim you're not allowed to question this dreck unless you've already done WP:BEFORE to his satisfaction (and he'll always decide you haven't). Note the strategy here: dumping garbage non-sources into a discussion is "proof" that the nominator didn't WP:BEFORE, and not having sufficiently grovelled at the holy altar of BEFORE means you're not allowed to scrutinise the garbage non-sources. Reyk _YO! 09:57, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Oh, it may be entirely irrelevant. But that's kinda the point. This discussion would have been useful 10 years ago, or even 5 years ago. But the deletionists now have as much to be sorry for as the comparatively powerless inclusionists. St★lwart¹¹¹ 10:59, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Pardon? If you're claiming delete !voters are guilty of misconduct on par with organising voting blocks, falsifying sources, and calling people racists or nazis, I'd like to see some evidence of that. Reyk _YO! 11:11, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I absolutely am. Spend 20 mins at AFD. St★lwart¹¹¹ 11:43, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I spend plenty of time at AfD and I haven't seen the behaviour you describe. I think you are talking out of your ass. Again, if you're going to make allegations like this, show evidence. Reyk _YO! 11:48, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I genuinely believe you haven't seen it. I can't see a single AFD that you have contributed to which was started by the editor in my example above, since early 2020. If that causes you to believe I'm talking out of my ass, so be it. St★lwart¹¹¹ 12:15, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

User:Stalwart111 Provide diffs to show us what you're referring to. Mztourist (talk) 15:24, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I provided a detailed account of that editor's 3-year campaign above. St★lwart¹¹¹ 22:37, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

If I may jump in, as an irregular AfD contributor and having no particular affiliation to either camp, here are few samples of "rabid deletionist" modus operandi: Škabo (2nd nomination) (2020), Albin Gutman (2020), Zoran Terzić (2017). Granted, neither is particularly new, but from my limited experience the phenomenon is real. I'm not accusing anyone of colusion, but the "deletionist camp" seems to consist of people rather actively monitoring AfDs and WP:PERNOMing without investing a single bit of energy into research. No such user (talk) 13:47, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Just to provide a bit of background here, that last one was the result of a user creating thousands and thousands and thousands of badly sourced and often inaccurate articles about mostly living people and then, when the scale of the problem was identified, he used a sock account to give these very crappy articles a seal of approval. All this had to be checked and it was a huge amount of work. A surprisingly small number of those articles ended up, on inspection, being suitable for the Encyclopedia and that seems to have been one of them. This is not a good example of "deletionists" being careless; quite the opposite in fact. I don't think this has much to do with the topic, which was derailed by silly and unconvincing "they're ad bad as each other"-- as though occasionally sloppy nominations or a few perfunctory "delete per nom" votes are as disruptive as screaming "NAZI" at people, or presenting sources at AfD while lying about what's in them. Reyk _YO! 14:20, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Wow it's almost as if limited experience is not enough experience to draw any conclusions about a "deletionist camp"... Levivich 14:25, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

• Who called Dronebogus an "arsonist"? The ARS isn't a living entity. Mention the specific editor you have a problem with. If most of their AFD work is done elsewhere besides what few articles are on the ARS list, then getting rid of the ARS wouldn't change that at all. I see where Dronebogus called me "obnoxious" above, and he has made additional insults for days now. Dream Focus 10:04, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  • Lightburst called me an arsonist. Dronebogus (talk) 10:08, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• The example of Laura Hoffmann is grotesque as that has just about nothing to do with the ARS. To see people arguing and canvassing about women footballers, the projects to visit are Women in Red (Mass deletion nomination of 14 women Footballer) and WikiProject Football (Accusations of deliberate misogyny). Are you going to close down those projects too? The page that actually needs shutting down is ANI – this discussion is a sprawling, uncivil mess and the quality of such evidence is appalling. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:16, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

With Accusations of deliberate misogyny the comment was "If anyone can find Dutch language sources the articles can saved from deletion." Whereas, in ARS you asked for "reinforcement and support." Are you seriously going to act like those are the same thing? --Adamant1 (talk) 10:25, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I like thematic comments and so, in that cherry-picked case, chose military words to fit the military theme. But my comments vary considerably as I don't like monotony. Looking back at the first of Levivich's examples above, Adelita (turtle), my ARS entry was "This was a US project in the 1990s but my access to US press coverage from that era is not so good. Perhaps a US-based editor could help." So, sometimes I try a thematic hook, sometimes I make a specific suggestion. YMMV. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:50, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Ah, it was a just a harmless thematic comment to fit military theme...Right...Kind of like "If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire the A-Team." I guess your a crypto-canvasser. "No, no...I wasn't trying to enlist people to vote in the AfD or saying ARS can save the article. I was just citing a quote from the A-Team song." --Adamant1 (talk) 11:12, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

"In 2007, a crackpot Wikipedia editor unit was sent to ANI by an administrator court for an AfD they didn't start. These men promptly appealed from a maximum indefinite block to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by Arbcom, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire... the Article Rescue Squadron." Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:24, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

We should explain that the topic in question was B. A. Baracus. The puzzling thing in that case was that just about nobody turned up to the discussion – yet again the canvassing claim is refuted. And there was some weirdness about the nominator that Jclemens handled. "I aint got time for your jibba jabba!" Andrew🐉(talk) 11:51, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I pity the fool who sent that to AfD. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:55, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• I went there but didn't comment in the AFD. I did add a reference to the article itself that I found after looking around for sources. [26] So no canvassing or vote stacking. Sometimes I improve the article, this time only slightly, without participating in the AFD. Dream Focus 12:17, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• Andrew Davidson, Here is a diff of the article being mentioned on the project page. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:47, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  That was a request on the talk page, asking for access to a particular German language source. What's the problem? Andrew🐉(talk) 10:52, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Speaking as someone who is often on the "opposite" side of the ARS "voting block", I am not particularly concerned about it (or canvassing). As long a the closing editors remember that WP:AFDNOTAVOTE, vote stacking one way or another is a minor problem. What matters is the quality of arguments, and their tone. My only recommendation regarding ARS is that it should be obligatory for ARS members to add a delsort notification to the discussion they are participating (saying that 'this discussion has been listed in the ARS deletion list' or such). I am not concerned about 'many votes'. If they are good quality arguments, that's great. If they are low quality, they should be discarded. What I am however concerned is about behavior of individual editors, as I believe at least one prominent ARS member has long ago given up on AGF, and is de facto spamming numerous AFDs with WP:GOOGLEHIT-based keeps, and doing so in a WP:BATTLEFIELD-manner, attacking nominators and so on. But as AN(I) in the past has failed to sanction that editor (who has been reported here several times, with a rough 'no consensus' ending each time), I believe nothing short of an ArbCom will have any chance of ameliorating the problem. Again, I repeat: the problem is not ARS, which is a noble initiative providing a useful level of scrutiny, the problem is the radicalization of its members, or perhaps just one vocal individual, who believe(s) that time-wasting google hit laundry lists, mixed with bad faith commentary about evil deletionists, is the way to 'save' articles. I will also add that this type of problematic behavior is often displayed on articles which are not listed at ARS, nor do they attract the attention of more than a single ARS member, but on the off chance I am wrong I believe ArbCom which would analyze the behavior of most active ARS members would be in order - but that ArbCom should not focus on CANVASS concerns, but on AGF/BATTLEGROUND/POINTless voting with GOOGLEHIT-like results, and judge whether some ARS members should not be topic banned from commenting in AfDs/PRODs/etc. If ARS would go, it would be simply unfair, as I think 'deletionists' can still monitor various DELSORT lists - but we would be taking away the main DELSORT list that 'inclusionists' have. Let them organize, just enforce that they behave like responsible members of the projects, not warriors for the holy cause. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:36, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• Complaining about Google is utterly absurd because every AfD contains search links to Google and the participants are expected to use them; especially the nominator. Per WP:CONRED, "The minimum search expected is a normal Google search, a Google Books search, a Google News search, and a Google News archive search; Google Scholar is suggested for academic subjects." The problem is that, in many cases, it appears that such a thorough search is not done but nominators are rarely sanctioned for this. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:01, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  The converse is also true though. e.g. at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Wikimedia_movement you pasted the titles of 12 sources. After putting in the effort to get access to the first 6 (some were rather obscure to access so I'm not sure even you had accessed them) it turned out 4 didn't even contain the phrase, and some didn't even contain 'movement'. The other two were written by WMF staffers. The next 6 seemed equally dubious, but I didn't spend time going through those. You didn't respond to defend your listing of any of these sources. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:19, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• When searching, it's best not to require exact hits on precise phrases because a concept may often be described in different ways using different words. That's the difference between an encyclopedia and a dictionary, as explained by WP:DICDEF: "In Wikipedia, things are grouped into articles based on what they are, not what they are called by. In a dictionary, things are grouped by what they are called by, not what they are." The Wikimedia movement is a rather fuzzy cloud of projects and people using many languages and those sources seemed relevant to this concept. And this issue is not what's meant by WP:GOOGLEHITS, which is the use of search counts rather than specific sources. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:49, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  So are you saying that you've checked that in each of those 12 titles you listed, the concept of a Wikimedia movement is defined such that the source is relevant to the AfD, but in different words (not using 'movement')? Such that if I asked you to list out the pages of each source where that's done, at the time, you would've been able to do so? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:43, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fomalhaut in fiction Andrew built his argument on a source he called "detailed", that after closer examination proved to be a) in Chinese and b) off topic. That's not "googlehits" - it was a single "hit" one of the lowest possible denominator. What excuse for this "argument" can be found here? I'd love to hear it. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 21:16, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  Wow. Just had a read through that AfD. Seeing things like that really test the limits of asssuming good faith and unfortunately lead me to suspect WP:NOTHERE. Vladimir.copic (talk) 22:34, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• As explained by Conrad and countless others, "It’s only those who do nothing that make no mistakes". Busy editors cannot therefore be expected to have a 100% record. Piotrus nominates numerous articles for deletion, claiming that they are not notable. Naturally, they are occasionally mistaken – see Toto (Oz) for an egregious example. If editors are not able to challenge and contest such assertions, then these errors will slip through. The process requires both sides of the argument to be presented and thrashed out. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:29, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

  Let's avoid straw mans. Nobody is saying deletion nominations cannot be challenged. But challenges - just like nominations themselves - should follow a bare minimum standard. That includes a BEFORE that should go beyond google hits. If you list a source, you should verify yourself it contains a relevant discussion that passes SIGCOV and such, or otherwise preface such a comment with a disclaimer (i.e. saying that you were not able to or had no time to access the full text or such). Please do tell us what led you call an off-topic, Chinese paper a "detailed source" in the Fomalhaut discussion? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:48, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Dorothy and Toto meet a straw man

• Here's a nice picture of Toto (Oz) with a straw man (right). Naturally, editors prefer to cherry-pick examples which make them look good but so it goes. See WP:SAUCE. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:32, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

• This looks like every other ARS-related thread that makes it to a noticeboard: a mishmash of problems with ARS, problems framed as being about ARS that are actually about individuals, debates over canvassing, examples of lousy !votes, examples of lousy nominations, examples of terrible articles, examples of good articles... it doesn't go anywhere. You might say "ArbCom is the next step for a long-term intractable problem" but here's the thing: there isn't evidence it's intractable. These threads so often close with "propose sanctions about individuals" but where have those threads been tried? I vaguely remember some threads about individual members, but focused on e.g. personal attacks, hounding, etc. which isn't always a good fit. Where are the "X is a net negative in deletion discussions. here are a bunch of diffs. I propose a topic ban on pages related to deletion, which includes ARS" threads? If successful, we can see what ARS can do without that person. If it fails, then at least we can say it's been tried (and been tried recently -- I'm sure there are a couple of those deep in the archives). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:56, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Some of the examples here of 'over-canvassing' are exaggerated. It does happen, but simply asking for help finding a foreign language source isn't canvassing. Yes, there's issues with ARS. But there's also some value. Nfitz (talk) 19:49, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

IMO The canvassing could largely be dealt with if there was a requirement that Template:Rescue list be posted at the AfDs that they are involved in. Changing the wording in their guide to "improving" things instead of "saving" them would probably help. In the meantime it's pretty clear that particular members should be dealt with at ArbCom or something. Outside of that I don't think a few bad apples should lead to getting rid of the project unless they aren't dealt with, but I assume ARS and AfDs would be fine without their participation if ArbCom sanctions them. I'd probably join ARS myself if there wasn't the seedier influences. I bet a lot of other people would. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:08, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Seedier!? As it happens, that takes us to the latest entry at WP:RESCUE: Seed-counting machine. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:47, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

• I guess it's a bit of a jumble because the canvassing issues really do have their locus at ARS but the other problems-- the decade-long history of falsifying sources and trolling deletion nominators-- are probably concerns with individuals. I'd hope the Arbitration Committee would be able to look past this obfuscation though. Reyk _YO! 11:51, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

• The length of this thread is a little mind-boggling in a tl;dr sorta way, but based on my experiences as an NPP/AfC reviewer, I tend to support saving articles (unless they're purely promotional or paid editing/blatant business promotion). WP cannot be the sum of all knowledge if we're deleting articles that actually are notable, even though they may not be extensively covered in mainstream media. I invite the confused to take an NPP training course. We need help with the backlog! Oh, and of special note, WP is supposed to be the sum of all knowledge, so I'll leave this little tidbit and run for cover. . Happy editing! Atsme 💬 📧 04:08, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

• COMMENT: "Information is not knowledge" - Frank Zappa.

Based on the above discussion, it appears to me that a structural problem exists on the English Wikipedia, and that this is a serious matter which the community is unable to resolve. The matter therefore needs to be escalated to WP:ARBCOM for adjudication. William Harris (talk) 07:02, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

• • No, I think it’s largely just a poorly conceived and semi-disruptive but mostly just annoying project, two disruptive/uncivil users, and a couple of others who need to be slapped with a trout for being smug and/or writing moderately dumb and confusing A-Team references. Dronebogus (talk) 14:57, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

That is your perception, and you are very entitled to bear it. That is not what would be presented to ARBCOM for resolution. William Harris (talk) 07:38, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Break

• I’d also like to state that my view of ARS has softened slightly upon seeing recent nominations focus on more reasonable topics like “seed counting machine” and the featured “armament of Iowa-class battleships”, instead of just “here’s a WP:RUN OF THE MILL soldier, here’s a pointless trivia list, here’s fancruft, TO ARMS AND MOLON LABE” Dronebogus (talk) 15:06, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
  • That's only because they're under the microscope. Once the heat's off it'll be about a week and a half before it's back to asserting nominators are morons and/or bigots and dropping in google hits to books where two out of three words in the article title can be found somewhere in the text. Reyk _YO! 15:29, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
    • Just look through all past activity in the past year or so. I haven't changed how I do things at all. If you have a problem with specific editors, then list them and stop grouping everyone together. As I said, most of the AFDs each of us participate in, are not part of the Rescue squardon. Do they behave differently in the ARS then they do elsewhere? Dream Focus 15:35, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
      • most of the AFDs each of us participate in, are not part of the Rescue squardon I don't think thats true. At least since September when LB came back, most of the AfDs you participate in are also participated in by at least one other ARS regular. If I'm wrong, let's see the list of AFDs you've participated in since Sep in which no other ARS member participated in. (I think this is true before Sep, too, but there are so many AFDs that I don't have time to run it down.) Levivich 16:12, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
        • A quick look through my contributions and searching for the word deletion shows things. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Inverness Athletic F.C. Seasons I voted delete in. Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_works_by_Edward_Robert_Hughes, an article I created was nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Star Wars Theory, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of video games featuring Mario, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of pregnancy novels I cast no vote in since I wasn't certain of this sort of thing just made a comment, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of water parks in the Americas, and many others. That's just a quick glance. You could probably count how many AFDs I've been in, and its far higher than how many articles were tagged for help at the Rescue list. Dream Focus 16:18, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
          • I didn't say tagged for help at the Rescue list. I said in which no other ARS member participated in. No moving goalposts please. You participate in the same AFDs even when they're not tagged. In fact I think it was shown above that only half are tagged. I've posted lists above where two or three of you have participated. Let's see a list where only you participated without the others. Just over the last 60 days, there aren't that many. But the ones in which you are alone are a distinct minority compared with the ones where at least one other member of the canvassing club is there. "Tagged" is a red herring because ARS doesn't always tag them. (Also, I still am waiting for even one example of an AfD where one of you voted keep and another delete. Not redirect or draftify or merge, just straight keep/delete disagreement. I believe this has never happened with the Gang of Four in the last three years, since I've been here. If it has, maybe only once or twice out of hundreds of block-voted AFDs. Prove me wrong.) Also make your examples from before this thread was opened. Showing me examples from while this thread has been running is a joke (as your links were above), and not the funny kind. Levivich 16:38, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
            • I checked before posting those, the others not in them, just me. Dream Focus 16:45, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Come on DF. Here's what you posted just now:

1. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Inverness Athletic F.C. Seasons - this AfD was launched today. After this ANI thread. When you're all on your best behavior of course.
2. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of works by Edward Robert Hughes - started after this thread
3. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Star Wars Theory - two ARS regulars (DF and GreenC) both voting keep
4. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of video games featuring Mario - ok that's one
5. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of pregnancy novels - no ARS members voted on this one, though you commented (not sure what that proves since there are no votes from ARS)
6. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of water parks in the Americas - two ARS regulars (DF and LB) both voted keep

So yeah that's one in which you voted that no other ARS members voted. One. Levivich 17:13, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

• Well whatever. I didn't look closely enough. Don't really care. You got bots apparently already to search for names. Just search for one name, then count that compared to the ones you found with more than one name. Dream Focus 17:19, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

  That... that's what I did. I'm not saying you're intentionally lying, but when you say that you vote on AFDs alone, that just isn't true. If that's your perception of things, it's a misperception. Go ahead and look through your own AfD votes just since Sep 2021 when LB returned and you'll see that in almost all of them there are at least two of you. That's why everyone says you block vote. Don't deny it, because the records are easy to check. Just stop doing it. Levivich 17:28, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

  Show evidence and stop making baseless accusations here. I know I was editing for years before LB joined Wikipedia. Many of us follow the list Wikiproject. If you could search for all AFD I've been in that aren't list, and then somehow check for others, then you'd be able to determine what the truth is here. Otherwise you just seem to be saying what you want to believe is true. I remember for years I'd was very active in the articles for manga and Anime, following that Wikiproject's list of things at AFD, and don't recall ever seeing any of the others there. I exported articles with their entire history over to the manga fandom to save threatened ones quite often. Dream Focus 17:40, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

  Meh, DF and I both follow Lists delsort. We all edit and follow our interests. The guy is allowed to ivote wherever he decides. This thread is a mishmash of grievances, some of them have no merit. ARS has no membership, it has no affiliations. It exists to feritt out one - maybe two articles in a week. The rest of the time we edit in our areas of interest. Just like you do, and everyone else. Lightburst (talk) 17:42, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

  Some of them do indeed have no merit, but quite a lot of them do. "ARS has no membership" - do you take the community for idiots? Black Kite (talk) 17:47, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

  He never noticed Wikipedia:Article_Rescue_Squadron/Members and never signed it. But having your name on a list doesn't matter, people show up regardless. Dream Focus 17:49, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

  Thanks DF - cool that people made statements when they signed up - I read yours too. For clarity I should probably put my name in there. I see User:Ritchie333 joined in 2012 and said this: Semi-regular dumpster diver saving articles from deletion via CSD or AfD with numerous resulting DYK credits, particular expertise on geography and bands. And I especially like what USER:DGG said when he joined in 2007: The key is balance, and willingnesss to improve articles--if everyone participated in one Afd and fixed one article and found one hopeless article to delete, we could really improve WP. I am going to sign up and say this:

  The first rule of ARS is you do not talk about ARS. The second rule is you do not talk about ARS.

  Lightburst (talk) 18:31, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

While it's true I did sign up to the ARS early in my serious wiki-career (2012 onwards), I did also quickly disengage from the project in June 2012 when I realised it was counter-productive and could happily rescue articles without being an active part of it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:39, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

User:Ritchie333 I have always considered you to be a fair arbiter on the project. The record will show that I trust your judgement. I almost always agree with you on RFA also. I was a bit shocked to see your comments in this thread above, but I gave them appropriate weight based on my opinion of your body of work. I was chuckling about the A-Team pop-culture ref. Not ass-kissing but keeping it real. I still see value in the ARS project, I sometime disagree with things posted there, and many times I post a stinker up there and nobody shows to help. This long thread is an example of long memories and perceived slights. AfD naturally brings drama based on the fact that someone's creation is thought to be unworthy of main space. I understand that. Too many nominators are married to the thesis in their nomination. For an example of a nominator that is not married to the thesis - see Seed-counting machine the nominator is presently adding to the article. It is how things should work. Lightburst (talk) 19:50, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

For me, I think the point at which I thought the ARS jumped the shark was at or around Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pizza cheese when Milowent yelled at someone, calling them a "pizza cheese jihadist" and later "I'm done with you pizza cheese heathens. I can't argue for 7 days non-stop about whether pizza cheese is independently notable as shown by myriad sources. Famous Evil Deletionist Tarc actually !voted to keep above, so I don't think I can say any more". That's just ... bonkers. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:21, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

@Ritchie333: bahahaha. Donny Osmond comes to mind. and Pizza- Do the right thing. put some extra moozarella on that MF and Sh*& Lightburst (talk) 21:31, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

• Show evidence and stop making baseless accusations here. Are you kidding me? Scroll up, I posted two lists of AFDs. Levivich 17:52, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

  Levivich You're wasting your time. There has never been, even in years past where a number of members were blocked and banned for disruption, any admission from the core ARS members that anything they do many possibly be wrong. Black Kite (talk) 18:40, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

• If the articles they or anyone tries to improve are improvable to the point of being acceptable they will be kept; if not, they will be deleted. Anyone who thinks we should be more deletionist in an area can influence decisions just as much as anyone in the ARS. . If people show up at AfDs and make no substantial statement about how the article meets (or doesn't meet) policy, their !votes will not be taken into serious consideration. Anyone participating in that project will soon learn what is worth working on. Looking at Wikipedia:Article Rescue Squadron – Rescue list, some are saved; some are deleted, some are merged--just as would be expected.

The main area of contention at the moment is the individual Tuskegee Airmen--results at AfD seem to be variable , and it would be good to have a discussion somewhere in order to get consensus on the standards to be used.

looking to see who else in the project !voted is meaningless--there are a great many members, most of who are listed to indicate their general support, but, like me, never look at their lists. As background, in 2006-7 there was very great variation in AfDs, much more than at presen; we all were still trying to find practical interpretations of the written criteria. There were at the time some editors repeatedly listing articlews for deletion until they by chance got deleted, and there was a need to encourage each other to opppose them. Most members signed up around that time. -- DGG ( talk ) 19:30, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

@DGG: Thanks DGG - I do respect your measured response, and loved your statement in there. From what I see many of the AfDs suffer from lack of participation. When I participated in FOOTY AfDs I realized there was a core that made their own local consensus on every one and ivoted without regard for the guideline. it was a loser so I stopped. I experience the same underwhelming participation in GEO articles. Usually three guys turn up and they have like minds. They are not wrong on GEO, but lately I have disagreed about notability of cemeteries. Sadly there is not a guideline for them. Many things should be deleted and I get that. Lightburst (talk) 20:13, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

If people show up at AfDs and make no substantial statement about how the article meets (or doesn't meet) policy, their !votes will not be taken into serious consideration. We like to think that, we like to say it, but in reality it doesn't happen. And when it does happen (discounting of votes leading to a close against the majority), that gets DRV'd, and those DRVs also get ARS'd, eg Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2021 October 21. Levivich 19:44, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Yeah… that isn’t exactly how !vote works. Because, y’know, who gets to decide one argument is more valid than the other in that case? A self-appointed closer? It’s based off consensus, which very much correlates with the numbers. Often you can sway the numbers with a convincing argument (given large enough participation), but in small sample sizes, eh… e: Although I agree that there are times you’ll see a closer who is willing to defy the numbers substantially, when warranted. Sometimes it’s allowed to stick. But such closers aren’t necessarily common ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:20, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Obviiously, what counts as policy-based argument can be a matter of dispute. In contested AfDs, usually we do accept a bald statement of a reason unless its part of a group of identical statements. This does give some weight to the number of people, and the dependence of afd -- and WP decisions generally-- upon the self-selection of whoever chooses to !vote is one of the weaknesses of the system, but it is difficult to think of an alternative. However, any close that says it is based upon pure vote counting where the result is clearly contrary to policy should be appealed to del rev. -- Del Rev should be getting considerably more business. DGG ( talk ) 21:54, 27 October 2021 (UTC) � DGG ( talk ) 21:54, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

• There seems to be some stress here on looking editor's history of keep versus delete versus keep votes. Depending on how one tackles AFD, that's not going to tell much. Personally (and unlike many here), I oppose anyone voting one way or another without a good series of Internet searches - 5 minutes minimum, perhaps a lot longer; I think AGF requires that much study into any AFD. There seems to be to many people who'll vote Delete, without much thought. And too many AFDs to ever look at. If I've got time to start looking at AFDs, and at first blush I think it's a delete, I'm not bothering to do enough to cast a vote. If I start researching deeper, and it's likely going to end a delete, I stop. It's only if I take a really deep dive, and conclude it's a delete, that I cast a Delete vote (more often or not, it's only iffy, and then I don't vote, or only comment). It's only when I suspect that there's something really fishy (like people who never actually existed, etc.), that I bother to research enough to do a delete. I don't find deleting a lot of stubs helps the project much. So I focus on what I think should be kept. There's no doubt then that my votes are definitely skewed keep. As I've said before - those that manage to do 30 delete votes in 20 minutes without researching them are a bigger issue. I think this has gone far enough, and should be closed. With no prejudice against future ANI discussions about individual editors (though to me, a lot of the claims above seem cherry-picked and trumped up - like minded people who follow the same lists, might well look like they are block voting - that doesn't mean they are block voting). I don't see how this is anywhere close to being ArbCom worthy at this point.Nfitz (talk) 00:14, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
• I agree with multiple editors above, one editor's actions are far more egregious than the other three listed (despite some minor disagreements I have a lot of respect one of their number), I think a detailed review of the most egregious member's conduct is warranted, either here or at a higher more structured venue. But ... this comment sums up the ARS approach, Afds are all about who shows up, and as has been shown repeatedly above canvassing undoubtedly occurs on the ARS rescue list, and then the core ARS membership frequently swamp a discussion with votes (not WP:!VOTEs). I too think this has repeatedly proven too hard for the community to resolve so ARBCOM is now likely the appropriate venue. Cavalryman (talk) 02:35, 28 October 2021 (UTC).

And further, as the core ARS membership have never admitted any fault in any of their actions they should welcome this. Cavalryman (talk) 02:37, 28 October 2021 (UTC).

Afds are all about who shows up aren't they? I just demonstrated that in Footy and GEO. If you think one, two or four guys can disrupt the project you have not followed AfD. I deletion sort so I see all the AfDs that come through. My point in saying that was clear by a full reading of the AfD. Tendentious - bludgeoning, by me too probably. And I was finally saying that was enough of our back and forth: Maybe do not cherry pick the one line, it deserves context. Your argument is nonsense if anyone reads the page

It is all about who shows up and who cares enough to research beyond- the refs are weak...delete. This kind of "yes it is..no it's not" back and forth is mind numbing ...As I said above, you and I are at loggerheads. We cannot agree to apply policy instead of an essay. And we need to wait to see who shows. That is all that matters.

Lightburst (talk) 02:59, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

• In 2019 a few editors (including myself) suggested changes to address canvassing concerns: RFC about proposed guideline amendment, Editor conduct, Inappropriate entries, Suggested template revisions. These proposals were met with personal attacks, defensiveness and a refusal to address the concerns of editors who were not ARS participants so I've tried to steer clear of the project since then. To their credit the more recent entries have been written as requests for article improvement rather than explicit requests for Keep !votes, but this discussion makes it clear that the battleground mentality is still there and legitimate concerns are still being dismissed as nonsense. Although a good idea in theory, ARS functions as a meeting place for editors who bring unnecessary drama to AfD and create work for others who must deal with their fallacious arguments and bad sourcing. Shutting down ARS would allow members to do their article improvement work without all the drama, which seems like a win-win. Editor behavior should also be addressed on an individual basis. –dlthewave ☎ 03:12, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Possible solution proposal: Should a SysOp ArbCom be the one to give the final word?

With what is being discussed and the fact that currently all of the final decisions and the outcome's actions are done by an Admin, I think it is time to place some form of higher balance of power into those to discussion boards. I propose that a SysOp ArbCom should now become the one to give the final word, and do the final action, as I never have heard of a SysOp ArbCom breaking the rules or being unjust. Although they are a type of Admin, they at least are more cautious of their actions when compared to other admins. Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 01:43, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Admins to not have the authority to supervote in the manner you are suggesting. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 01:57, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

@Pppery:If not then where should this proposal discussion be? Or are you referring to something else when you say "supervote"? Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 02:10, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

• You stated: "I never have heard of a SysOp breaking the rules or being unjust." I can't tell if you are joking or not. Dream Focus 02:04, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

@Dream Focus: I am not joking. Even if there were such incidents, then it must be a lot less often than that of admins breaking rules or being unjust. This is because the process for being a SysOp is much harder, and SysOp applicants are more scrutinized than that of Admin applicants. Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 02:10, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

A SysOP is an administrator. Wikipedia:Administrators reads at sentence one: Administrators, commonly known as admins or sysops (system operators), are Wikipedia editors who have been granted the technical ability to perform certain special actions on the English Wikipedia. Dream Focus 02:20, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

@Dream Focus: Well then, still although they are administrators, those with the title of SysOp usually do act with more caution then regular admins. Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 02:27, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Can you link to someone with that title? Are you thinking of Arbcom? Dream Focus 02:32, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

@Dream Focus: You were right, my bad, 🤦‍♂️. I mixed up a lot of user levels and privileges. Came back to Wikipedia editing after almost a year. I mixed up SysOp with CheckUser, and thought CheckUser was a different level. But yes, you got what I was looking for, ArbCom. Fixed the title of this sub-section as well. Thank you for pointing out my mistake.  :) Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 03:38, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

I think what you're looking for is Wikipedia:General_sanctions. In this case either ArbCom or the community could authorize discretionary sanctions that would allow admins to act fairly unilaterally. In that case, an admin could restrict ARS participants from !voting in AFDs, etc., crack down on continued disruptive beahvior, etc.

For what it's worth, there is a multi-pronged aspect that makes this difficult when summarizing this ANI post:

1. First, members of ARS have had serious behavior problems individually, usually hallmark tendentiousness that wastes community time. That's where the focus on individual behavior comments come in over focusing on the group.
2. The ARS group is also serving as a focusing point for that behavior, so the group itself is part of the disruptive behavior. In many ways, it is easier for the community to place restrictions on the group as a whole because of that because of how intertwined that has become.
3. Others like BusterD have mentioned how the group is very different than other Wikiprojects in that it has a stated goal of "rescuing" articles that in practice can often be at odds with policy as it isn't really a disinterested party like a noticeboard might be. Good at times, but also easily abused as we've seen in practice with includes things like votestacking, canvassing, and refbombing AFDs as I've seen described here and witnessed myself too often. There is definitely something inherent to the group that can quickly turn disruptive if not managed carefully, almost to a similar parallel to how we treat WP:COI.

That's why at this point, it does seem like it would reduce disruption for the community by enacting restrictions related to the group as a whole, which the community can do since 1 above so far hasn't been addressed very well by community discussions. Here's the options we seem to have left:

1. Delete the project through WP:MFD. There is guidance specific to Wikiprojects there, so it would be the correct venue. Part of that guidance says It is generally preferable that inactive WikiProjects not be deleted . . . That does not say must, and WP:NOTBUREAU is the overriding policy. If there is consensus on the community that the project has become a net negative sink for the community and deletion is best, then it can simply be done. If consensus is that it's a problem, but the project should be made inactive without posts allowed (essentially perma page protection), that too can be done. This would be the sixth MFD though. It could be worth a shot, but the history means the remaining choices would be valid.
2. Community imposed discretionary sanctions on ARS participants. As mentioned above, the community could hand this to admins to impose specific editing restrictions, more easily enforce blocks, bans, etc. like we do in other areas where people are expected to be on better behavior rather than doubling down. We could also just directly authorize a narrow editing restriction here that participants of the project must not !vote at AfDs, etc. There's been some discussion on that already, so someone better versed in that than me is free to directly propose a broad vs. narrow sanction in a new section that could bring this ANI to a natural close.
3. ArbCom. They can either impose discretionary sanctions themselves, propose specific remedies, or both. Considering MFD has been tried multiple times, and dealing with problematic projects is not something the community can easily do, this would be a valid time for ArbCom to take it up. Someone could try MFD one more time independently of all this, but if someone proposes a community authorized sanction and it fails at this ANI, then ArbCom would be the only choice left.

That's enough text from me, but this section does bring up the point that we're practically at the point the discretionary sanctions are the only way to handle it unless the MfD route bears some fruit after a sixth nom. KoA (talk) 06:01, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions helps with volume. There is no volume problem here, there's just no consensus of what solution to go for, and perhaps not even consensus that there's a problem. Someone needs to clearly lay out the problem from the massive wall of text above, and from there a solution can be devised. It could be that there is no problem here, it could be that the project is fundamentally flawed and needs to be disbanded, or it could be that certain participants are the problem and require individual sanctions. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:01, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions helps with volume. There is no volume problem here the recurrent issues at AFDs say otherwise, especially with the under the radar sniping, etc. (though often not really under the radar honestly), canvassing, etc. At this point though, no one should really be arguing there isn't consensus there are serious problems within the group. That's well documented already. The issue is what remedy is needed or really feasible at this point. As already described above, it's not an either or issue. There are issues with the group as a whole and issues with individuals within. Neither can be ignored at this point. KoA (talk) 18:49, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

@ProcrastinatingReader:The problem the OP raised, is a problem that has diverse points of views that sometimes are conflicting with others point of view of the problem, and that is the main problem. One person may view the problem as specific users are only causing the problem, while another person may view the problem as systemic in the AfD noticeboard itself. The only people known to be able to fix and rectify problems like these are ArbCom. However, as it was stated at multiple points in the wall of text above, this problem had been found multiple times in the past and were fixed. Nevertheless, it seems the problem just keeps coming back. Thus the only fix as I stated in the begining of this sub-section, is for ArbCom members to be the final ones to give the decisions on discussions on AfD and ARS, and also to be the ones to carry out the task decided by that final decision. This makes it unlikely for the problem to come back up again. Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 20:07, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

We need sanctions against at least one member of the project who is disrupting deletions in a WP:POINTy way, and ArbCom is the way to do it. I don't think the community at AN(I) is able to review the evidence of disruption, plus ArbCom's evidence page is a better place to present said evidence. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:25, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

This thread is more than long enough without pointless side conversations. --JBL (talk) 22:08, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
COMMENT: On what basis do editors believe that ARS is a WikiProject? William Harris (talk) 07:53, 28 October 2021 (UTC) They do call themselves the very first line on their front page. Welcome to WikiProject Article Rescue Squadron (ARS). It differs from most in that proper Wikiprojects are dedicated to improving articles in one subject area, and the ARS are neither focused on a precise subject nor on article improvement: a dedication to "keepkeepkeepkeepkeep" at all costs isn't about improvement. Reyk YO! 08:37, 28 October 2021 (UTC) Despite how they might badge and categorise themselves, they do not appear to be listed. William Harris (talk) 10:56, 28 October 2021 (UTC) A WikiProject is, really, just a group of editors with a certain shared purpose (usually the development of articles relating to a certain subject matter, but not necessarily). Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation is a WikiProject, as such. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:03, 28 October 2021 (UTC) @William Harris: Just asking, is that a valid source to find a list of WikiProjects? The webpage does not seem to be from the Wikipedia domain name. Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 21:13, 28 October 2021 (UTC) Please refer to Wikipedia:WikiProject#Finding a project, the Bambot option. Just because a page in mainspace is tagged with the category "WikiProject" does not make it a WikiProject - I can do that on my User page. William Harris (talk) 21:50, 28 October 2021 (UTC) Whether or not a bot picked up the project, they most definitely are one. Check the manual list. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 16:51, 29 October 2021 (UTC) It's also listed on the automatic list, Wikipedia:WikiProject Directory/All. Levivich 19:09, 29 October 2021 (UTC) Those two are listings are based on the category tag "WikiProject" - I can place that on my User page and have it included on those lists as well. William Harris (talk) 21:28, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Example of how it should be done

Seed-counting machine was nominated for deletion, and marked for help at the Rescue Squadron by Andrew. I, Lightburst, and 7&6=thirteen went and helped him work on it. The article's nominator, Platonk, also did some work on it. Discussions in the AFD happened on how to make improvements, no one just showing up to spam delete because of its condition at the time. The nominator then withdrew the nomination praising the "wonderful effort and a great result" of the work done on the article in the past 24 hours. I wish I had a list of how many times we've done things like this, but alas, never thought to make one. For years now this has happened. If anyone sees other examples of this, please post them here. Dream Focus 20:02, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

• "How it should be done" versus "how it's often actually done" is kind of the problem here, and how that balances in terms of disrupting the community. -Indy beetle (talk) 21:38, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

• Not to mention that examples from after this ANI and the scrutiny started are completely irrelevant. My guess is that it will be either crickets when it comes to examples from before the ANI, or if they do materialize, they will be extremely cherry picked and completely miss-characterized. Also it's a little weird that you want examples of "how it should be done" when no one from ARS thinks there's an issue with it in the first place. Including you. If that's the case wouldn't every example be of "how it should be done"? --Adamant1 (talk) 22:32, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

• As has been said repeatedly, it all depends on whoever shows up. If you have an opinion about an article, go and say something policy-based. If those who are unhappy do not even bother to appear, I do not see how they can complain about the consensus of the editors who do.

And if you see bad articles and think they won't be deleted, try to improve them. Until you've tried, how can you be certain that they're bad? The strongest arguement for deletion , is that "I tried to fix it by looking at the appropriate sources and rewriting the pifle, and I found it couldn't be done." Of course, you may encounter someone who tried harder. Either way, you'll learn how to improve articles. The people I've learned from here have been my opponents. -- DGG ( talk ) 22:56, 28 October 2021 (UTC)``

And what you're bringing up as being said repeatedly is woefully inappropriate. When editors or a group are disruptive and a timesink for the community, editors are not told to spend even more time holding them at bay while trying to deal with bludgeoning, canvassing, or battleground behavior. That is what sanctions are for so the community doesn't have to constantly show up for repeated disruption.

The whole point of this ANI is that community processes are being disrupted, and to instead paint a caricature of unhappy people not bothering to appear at AfDs is pretty insulting to those that have tried to deal with this problem. KoA (talk) 23:18, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

To which I'd add: while it's generally true that AFDs are decided by whoever shows up, if the problem is a group of editors showing up and disrupting the AFDs (e.g., non-policy-based arguments, poor sources, incivility, bludgeoning), one way to solve that problem is to have more editors show up and make policy-based arguments, as DGG suggests. This increases the amount of editor time required per AFD. Another way to solve the problem is to remove the disruption in the first place, which decreases the amount of editor time required per AFD. I think the latter is better. Levivich 23:42, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, its like editors who take an article that ended in Keep, and renominated it for deletion less than a day after the previous AFD closed. [27] Lot of time wasted because of things like that. Dream Focus 23:46, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

@Dream Focus: I wrote this somewhere else in the wall of text, but I am going to be concise here referencing it again. There was an AfD discussion that ended up in keep, even though the article was backed by very poor sources. These sources were YouTube videos made by the subject of the article, a newspaper article from a website where users are able to make article by making an account, and a gaming news blog website. What you are saying is that all decisions at AfD should be full and final and no one should put up a very poorly sourced article again in AfD relatively soon. What I just described is similar to the problems which are being described here. Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 00:00, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Note this also an example of an article nominated for deletion 38 minutes after it was created [28] then massively expanded and improved upon by members of the Article Rescue Squadron[29]. The original nominator withdrew their nomination based on the improvements made. The article was then mentioned on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 29 March 2020 Dream Focus 23:54, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/S.W Randall Toyes & Gifts, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/S.W. Randall Toyes and Giftes (2nd nomination), and Template:Did you know nominations/S.W. Randall Toyes and Giftes, are good examples of how ARS is used to push WP:PROMO. There are others like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Georgetown Bagelry and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Trevena (lawyer). But those are old now. Levivich 23:55, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

The S.W. Randall Toyes and Giftes AfD is a perfect example of why ARS and it's members are problematic and should be dealt with. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:57, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This comment is classic red herring fallacy. ARS isn't at ANI for when it has done good, but the problems it is causing. KoA (talk) 00:02, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

• My main problem here is that ARS seems immune to admitting where they were wrong about something, and deciding to not repeat it again. Most if not all ARS members have been here for years and should know better than using Find-A-Grave or blogs as sources (as one example) or should also be sure to check that the source they list (and page numbers) actually discusses the topic at hand. Even if it only happens to 1/3 of the articles they rescue, they should know better. And it seems all we're met with is WP:IDHT. -Indy beetle (talk) 02:10, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

• The OP's claim and complaint was that the ARS is all about canvassing. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/S.W Randall Toyes & Gifts is described above as the "perfect example". But notice that, even though there were back-to-back AfDs, that I didn't attend either of them. When are the complainers going to admit that they were wrong about something?

What's actually going on is that there is a fairly small pool of AfDs – about 100/day – and a similar small pool of editors who regularly attend them. Naturally, you often see the same editors again and again. For example, yesterday I took my wife to the hospital for a test. The nurse exclaimed that they had the same birthday but this is a very common coincidence. See the birthday paradox.

Andrew🐉(talk) 09:20, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I said its a perfect example of why ARS and its members are an issue. A basic reading through this ANI complaint makes it clear that canvasing isn't the only problem. Or am I wrong about that? On the "you often see the same editors again and again" thing, no you don't. Even if you did though, there's a big difference between your wife and the nurse being the same room randomly and having same birthday, versus say them being in the same place with the same birthdate because you put an add on Craiglist inviting everyone with the same birthdate as her to her birthday party. I'll leave it to you to figure out which one of those scenarios is relevant to the voting habits of ARS members and which isn't. --Adamant1 (talk) 09:44, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't disagree that canvassing is a part of the issue but I don't think deleting the forum where canvassing takes place is ultimately going to be very effective: I'm quite sure that LB is capable of checking in on Andrew's contributions or scanning the list of recent AfDs or whatever, and so are the rest of them. In my opinion, it would probably be more effective to restrict the most problematic 1 or 2 ARS members (most aggressive canvasser, but more most NPA violations / highest hostility levels) from deletion entirely (via either a TBan or a block). I mean, there's no reason it has to be either-or instead of both-and, but it would be nice not to let the other (more?) serious issue go untreated. --JBL (talk) 12:11, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Indeed. As I said before, I don't consider canvassing to be an issue here, but " NPA violations / highest hostility levels" are a major problem. Everyone and their dog should be allowed to participate in AfDs - as long as their comments are constructive, not WP:BATTLEGROUND-encouraging, toxic and/or pure noise (keep because googlehits, etc.). I'll also add that IMHO it's just a tiny number of editors who have fallen to those abusive behaviors, and it is sad to see them dragging this otherwise noble project down and giving it a bad name. Cleaning up the house is in everyone's best interest here. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:51, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Frankly, there was never anything "noble" about ARS. It was created back in the "inclusionists vs deletionists" days, when people hated each other based on the (perceived) views of what belonged on the Wiki. ARS was very much in the extreme inclusionist camp from the start, arguing to keep everything added to the wiki. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:59, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

"when people hated each other based on the (perceived) views of what belonged on the Wiki", after reading the massive wall of text in this discussion, I don't think that has changed at all, except for the fact that ARS appears to have fewer supporters from the wider community in the present. Haleth (talk) 18:56, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Or just people see a massive wall of text and ignore it. Or that the supporters got mad with all the stuff they liked getting deleted over the years, and just edit wikia/fandom now. Most of those complaining are familiar names seen arguing with us in AFDs far too often over the years. Dream Focus 20:04, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

@Dream Focus: Spot on! There are many examples of Wikipedia:Fancruft, Wikipedia:Unblockables#What_to_expect, Wikipedia:Fan_analysis, and Wikipedia:Political_dispute, occurring in AfD articles, or the article talk pages. Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 00:53, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with people contributing fan articles that don't belong here to other projects. --Adamant1 (talk) 02:48, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

• When the ARS are working constructively they can be a real force for good, but when certain members decide not be be constructive (and I do not count all four in this), they can display WP:NOTHERE tendencies. Examples have been shown above of them cite bombing articles with utterly junk “sources” then edit warring them back in when attempts are made to remove them. Or refusing to actually discuss said “sources” when attempts are made to, instead giving utterly inane responses like I disagree with your assessment and I've already expressed my opinion. Perhaps a 1RR restriction on some of the member’s edits in articles under discussion would fix this, forcing them to then engage in constructive discussion. Cavalryman (talk) 20:33, 29 October 2021 (UTC).

  An article 1RR would not address the important problems, which have to do with behavior in discussions. --JBL (talk) 20:41, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

It could be extended to the AfD discussion, if a clearly rubbish source is provided as “proof” of notability (or upon verification it is found to be misattributed), another can remove it and discussion could occur on the AfD TP. Cavalryman (talk) 20:46, 29 October 2021 (UTC).

• Cavalryman, This is why I think we need ArbCom page where we can present evidence against particular users. I, for one, haven't seen much junk refs added to an article, only junk refs (mostly offtopic or SICOV-failing google hits) added to the AfD, coupled with an attitude that's dismissive/condescending at best aimed towards the nominator, as well as occasional mass deprodding with no evidence that the deprodded read the prod summary or did any BEFORE on their own (although I'll note that this is not required, so from the strict technical sense, mass deproddings by the so-called "PROD patrol" are fine, even if a "PROD patroller" is a clear inclusionist indiscriminately deprodding anything in sight). Add to this occasion removals of notability and other maintenance templates with no edit summary either... For this, 1RR is not relevant, what is needed is some sort of topic ban. Again, it is likely we are talking here about behavior of different ARS users, which has different levels of severity and requires different sanctions (and IMHO neither of those translates into the clear need to deprecaite ARS itself). Hence, my strong belief that ArbCom is needed, to review behavior of various users. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:56, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

  We wouldn't need an Arbcom page at this stage. We'd need an AN/I about each problem user, with diffs. If AN/I can't resolve the problems, then Arbcom might be a possibility.—S Marshall T/C 12:38, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

  @S Marshall The problem is that in the past, the user I am concerned with was subject to several AN(I) discussions that IIRC were mostly inclusive, maybe with one ending with a warning for civility at best (I'd have to double check). While I could try to make the case that their behavior has kept on deteriorating into more conflict-generating, IMHO that behavior was already bad enough in the past - but AN(I) did little to put a dent in it. And now that we may want to review behavior of several more editors, plus whether the entire ARS project is not violatating some policies, I think this is big enough we need ArbCom's touch as the matter is too complex for AN(I). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:21, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Piotrus, apologies for my late response, I have been enjoying freedoms gained after the world’s longest covid lockdown. The discussion has obviously moved beyond this, but as indicated above [30] I think ARBCOM is a good idea. Further, if I were in the position of the ARS I would be seeking it, as surely they believe they will be vindicated by the process. Cavalryman (talk) 09:27, 31 October 2021 (UTC).

@S Marshall I have started such a section below for the user I find most problematic. Let's see if this solves anything. At least now that I wrote this up, my future if-needed ArbCom evidence is mostly ready to copypaste... :P _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:32, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

A concrete proposal - Topic-Ban User:Lightburst

Several people above have suggested that the problem with ARS is best addressed by dealing with the ARS members as individuals. On that principle, I would like to make the following proposal: that Lightburst be indefinitely topic-banned from participating in deletion discussions and DRVs. The thesis here is simple: Lightburst is a high-volume contributor at AfD and related venues. Setting aside the quality of their substantive contributions, Lightburst is chronically abusive and uncivil towards other participants, creating a poisonous atmosphere via their frequent personalized attacks on nominators and others. For example, in the week from October 17 to October 24 (just before this ANI thread was opened), I find the following four comments: [31] [32] [33] [34]. (In the last, one should read the link WP:SKCRIT to understand what is objectionable.) Any one of these might be excusable in isolation, but the rate and volume (one personalized attack every 2 days) should not be acceptable; yet it is easy to confirm (by repeating my experiment in other time-periods) that this is a longstanding pattern of behavior. The proposed topic ban is narrowly tailored to deal with the locus of disruption, and I believe it would go a significant way to improving the overall tenor of AfD. --JBL (talk) 01:11, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

References

• Why is [35] a problem? Are you mad his edit summary is (Star Trek beats Star Wars)? How exactly are all of these personal attacks? Can you find some better examples to make your case or is this it? Dream Focus 01:55, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  What's not a personal attack about "When a nominator has to type a 1000 word dissertation to obfuscate a deletion rationale"? The nomination rational by Mztourist was only like 400 words and seemed pretty reasonably thought out to me. I can guarantee if it was shorter that one of you would have bitched about how Mztourist didn't really think about it or research the subject before doing the nomination. --Adamant1 (talk) 04:05, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  I'd issue a warning for PA over this, but if this is the worst, I don't see grounds for a topic ban. If there is more diffs showing repeated PAs from a longer period, then we could discuss something, but this is why we need a proper ArbCom evidence page. ''Maybe'' there is something to worry about here, but the four diffs above are not enough to see it. On a sidenote, I am used to "much worse" PAs fro some other(s) ARS members. If this would lead to a TB, then more will need to be handed out, but I'll repeat that I don't find the diffs presented here sufficiento endorse it. Reviewing the three other diffs, this contains no valid AfD argument but is not otherwise offensive, just "noise". The other two diffs seem more or less fine given the context. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:29, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  As my statements says, this is not "the worst", it is what I found by looking through one week of their edits. Repeat the experiment yourself and you will find that this is chronic behavior (and doubtless you will find many worse examples than the ones above). --JBL (talk) 12:25, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Support Lightburst has been uncivil, argumentative, proffered various spurious/fringe arguments and provided dubious sources to support their position at a number of recent AFDs. Mztourist (talk) 04:17, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• Support One good example of questionable behavior is Lightburst saying "Apparently the dissenting voices must be scrubbed from the internet. Can we save the minority voices? Should we? Or must we all speak with one voice? Perhaps we can demonstrate the usefulness of WP:LISTN by organizing the dissenters?" in an Article Rescue Squad discussion from the end of 2019. I'm sure there are others. As a side note I find it semi funny that people are saying ARS isn't a canvasing platform and only cares about article improvement while it's members are trying to "organize dissenters" so their voices aren't scrubbed from the internet. In the meantime that is clearly a WP:BATTLEGROUND way to treat AfDs. The fact that it's from the end of 2019 just shows that it's a chronic problem, that is unlikely to go away on it's own. I also find the example provided by JBL to be problematic. (BTW, in case anyone asks for it, I tried to link to a diff of the comment, but it wouldn't work for some reason) --Adamant1 (talk) 05:04, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• Support In addition to the incivility, they have a history of questionable AfD !votes. Although we welcome a wide range of opinions in deletion discussions, ones that violate our policies and guidelines are never appropriate. Here are a few that I've run into recently in geography AfDs:
  • Klock's Crossing - LB argues that passing mentions in news articles [36][37] are sufficient to establish notability. This is a long-running pattern, and LB is far from the only offender, but it violates our WP:SIGCOV guideline which requires that sources "address the topic directly and in detail" and be "more than a trivial mention".
  • Akin Junction - Again presenting passing mentions as significant coverage, as well as advancing (and doubling down on) the bizarre theory that the rail junction was notable because somebody thought that a city would spring up there. Remember, WP:CRYSTALBALL is a policy.
  • Philip Linn Pioneer Cemetery - Citing WP:GEOPURP as a reason to Keep. This is entirely nonsensical since GEOPURP simply tells us which topics fall under the geography SNG, not whether or not they're notable. When this was pointed out to LB, things went downhill [38][39], with LB arguing that "We do not need sigcov based on my rationale and based on Geo". Please note that according to WP:NGEO, the only places that don't require SIGCOV are "Legally recognized, populated places"; LB is choosing not to follow that guideline.
  • Calvary Cemetery (Mt. Angel, Oregon) - Personal attack: Accused me of saying something shitty and wished me a nice day. –dlthewave ☎ 05:50, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• FWIW, Dlthewave has been pretty unforgiving since I became active on WP in 2019. I even caught a block because he kept reverting my properly attributed block quote in an article I started. I went to ElC and asked him to take a look because it was an edit war - he immediately blocked me because he said, I had reverted to my preferred version before coming to him. Then ELC called it "borderline copyvio". Welcome to the project! It is pretty difficult to start up here. Especially if you join up with the ARS - I have never seen such vitriol. Above the name calling is allowed. I even had an admin revert me when someone called me an ARShole and I removed the personal attack. I have not been on the project long despite my years, but I have contributed much to the AfDs. Regarding DLthewave I have ivoted with them 90% on GEO items. However we are on opposite sides when it comes to cemeteries - which I see as historic, permanent, man made - I called out GEO PURP as an overriding guideline stating the purpose of GEO. There is no cemetery guide. He said and I am paraphrasing: you don't know what you are talking about, go study before you participate here. Dlthewave has proposed two other GEO items in the past few days that I researched, he disagrees with me, that is how AfD works. Nothing to see here. I held no grudge for catching a block from the edit war he started, and I held no grudge from him tell me to go study the guidelines before I participate. I held no grudge against the admin who thinks it is not a PA to call me an ARShole. I held no grudge against ElC. FTR: Dlthewave had no problem with 90% of the GEO ivotes that agreed with his. If WP:CIR then we would have just a few DLthewaves participating at AfD Lightburst (talk) 23:52, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Since I am hardly an inclusionist, I'll play the devi's advocate (as I do believe there are some problems with some ARS members),. The last difs violates CIVIL and mayb a PA. It should be crosed out/refactored/lead to a minor warning. The other three arguments are debatable as to whether they are good or not, policy-wise, but I don't think we should topic ban or otherwise sanction editors who occasionally make bad arguments. Now, if someone wants to show this editor repeatedly makes weak/bad arguments that go against eventual consensus/decision, we could consider this, but for that we need many more diffs, showing this is a long-standing problem the editor has been cautioned about yet disregarded the critique, plus a simple statisticsal analysis of what % of LB's votes go against the consensus. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:34, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @Piotrus: I like to think I am a work in progress - I find myself verklempt for many reasons. Lightburst (talk) 00:27, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Support AfD needs high standards of civility or it quickly turns into a circus. This user's behavior has fallen below those standards. However I believe 1-3 months would be sufficient in this case rather than indefinite. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 06:23, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose These examples are ridiculous. None of them seem to involve the ARS or canvassing which is supposed to be the issue here. And the quality of the evidence is feeble. For example, look at #4: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Formation (bandy) The crime here is supposed to be a vague wave to WP:SKCRIT but lots of editors make vague waves at AfD all the time. And notice that Lightburst struck the comment just 3 minutes after making it! So they seem quite capable of pulling themselves up and doing better. The other point about that discussion is that there was hardly any participation by anyone, even after relisting. If editors are driven off from AfD for making hasty or light-hearted comments then the place will become a desert and the relisting will get worse. Andrew🐉(talk) 06:58, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  They aren't light-hearted comments. Allowing users to repeatedly attack nominators and voters without consequence will actually turn AfDs into deserts. Just in a way that you'd probably be fine with. Whereas, in the meantime, getting rid of a few bad apples isn't going to do jack to AfDs except make them less of a toxic cesspool. --Adamant1 (talk) 07:15, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  Example #2 about the Wikipedia Star Trek Into Darkness controversy is especially light-hearted, with cartoons and much joking. If someone is a "high-volume" poster then it is too easy to cherry-pick examples and try to frame them as problematic. For example, at another AfD, we see JBL striking a comment because someone complains that it is uncivil. You need evidence based on the full set of contributions, not a few isolated examples. And the examples chosen in this case do not show what is claimed for them. Andrew🐉(talk) 07:48, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  How come you didn't have that attitude when you voted to have me perma blocked multiple times a few months ago? There were plenty of examples of me being civil. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:04, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  Adamant1 seems to be refering to the Proposal for Adamant1. In that discussion, I did not support the proposal that they be "topic banned from all deletion discussions about schools". Instead, I presented some detailed evidence about the full range of their activity, suggested a weaker sanction and did not make a formal !vote. Q.E.D. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:15, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  You said "This shows that, before schools, they were trying to delete colleges and universities and, before that, it was hospitals. And then there are topics like Matriculation in South Africa which would generate tiresome arguments about "broadly construed". I reckon it would be better to start with all proposed and speedy deletion activity because it doesn't appear that they are doing them right and such activity is less visible than AfD", because you wanted to have me blocked and my edits reverted more broadly. Instead of being confined to deletion discussions about schools as was being proposed. That's it. No where did you say you didn't support sanctions. In the meantime a lot of my PROD and speedy deletion nominations where subsequently deleted. You never said jack about the ones that weren't being cherry picked. --Adamant1 (talk) 08:26, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  • Andrew Davidson has been a member of WP:Article Rescue Squadron since 2008, and is the subject of a TBAN proposal below. Levivich 15:18, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose only the first out of the OPs list of four diffs ( [40] [41] [42] [43] ) seems to be a clear personal attack, albeit a mild one. The rest are at worst just arguably wrong - e.g. for the 3rd I'd not have classed Sandsteinds close as a supervote. AfD's are inherently emotive, how can they not be when dozens or even hundreds of hours of other editors hard work are at stake, not to mention coverage of notable topics. If the community was better at discouraging the timewasting nomination of worthy articles - which itself can be see as highly uncivil - then there might be a case to give Lightburst a 3 month topic ban. As things are, I think a warning to be more civil is the most that is warranted. FeydHuxtable (talk) 08:35, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  All four votes make personal criticisms of nominators or other voters. This kind of personalization is poisonous to good-faith discussion. I invite you to repeat my experiment in any other week of LB's editing -- they do it routinely and have been for a long time. --JBL (talk) 13:20, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  • FeydHuxtable has been a member of WP:Article Rescue Squadron since 2009. Levivich 15:18, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support I have noticed that once Lightburst joins a deletion discussion it can quickly become rancorous. Further, they will stoop to very low levels to fake notability, for instance this and this in an article about a truely obscure Spanish terrier like dog with absolutely no known connections to the New World, pure WP:GAMEsmanship. Further these two responses to my first post above demonstrates why any objections from other core ARS members should be ignored, basically they believe the ends justify the means including every underhanded tactic available (despite the means having absolutely no bearing on the ends in that instance). Cavalryman (talk) 09:22, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Bar the first one, the four diffs provided by the OP don't appear to be personal attacks at all. Regarding the diffs supplied by dlthewave, the last comment was out of order but I don't see a problem with the other three. Bad arguments should be disregarded by the closer. We all form our own interpretation of Wikipedia's guidelines and there is no need to abide by them to the letter in every case - this is why WP:IAR exists. Thus it would be inappropriate to ban someone from participating in AfD discussions simply because they are more inclusionist than most. NemesisAT (talk) 10:02, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  "there is no need to abide by them to the letter in every case" Indeed; and if the 4 examples above came from, say, the last year, that would be a very good argument. But in fact they are four examples of personal comments that create a poisonous atmosphere that I found by looking through one week of their contributions. You should look through a different week of their contributions to confirm! --JBL (talk) 13:20, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  "Bad arguments should be disregarded by the closer" I've seen this comment many, many times from folks who make bad arguments in RfCs, AfDs, etc, but when a close actually goes against the numeric vote count they inevitably fight it tooth and nail. There's even an example in this proposal. I'm not sure whether or not I agree with Sandstein's actions there but LB is clearly saying that a close should not go against the majority !vote. –dlthewave ☎ 14:23, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  • NemesisAT is not listed at WP:Article Rescue Squadron/Members, but in their past 200 AFDs in the last four months, they've !voted "keep" 95.9% of the time [44], and has voted with ARS, for example at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Willie H. Fuller, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Big John (dinosaur), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jones (third baseman), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of stock characters in military fiction, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/George L. Knox II. Levivich 15:18, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Comment - I have expanded the title of this section to name its subject. I have deeply mixed feelings. I think that LB and the other three have been uncivil influences in AFDs and DRVs, but AFD is unfortunately often uncivil. I agree that Lightburst has been abusing Speedy Keep, using it to mean I don't like it, but I am not sure that that abuse of Speedy Keep should be sanctioned. Robert McClenon (talk) 12:01, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose No clear evidence presented proving this is a problem. Some of those who support this action against him, are familiar names seen voting opposite of him in multiple AFDs. Of course maybe they are just upset he said (Star Trek beats Star War) in his edit summary. [45] People have argued and raged against one another for that previously, among other pointless things that don't really matter. Dream Focus 12:27, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  I think it is really disappointing that you (and the other better-behaved ARS members) haven't taken the time to reach out quietly to your poorly-behaved colleagues and encouraged them to behave better; instead, you have abetted and promoted the behavior that is likely to have you all end up at ArbCom or whatever. --JBL (talk) 13:20, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  Personally, I don't like either. Also, I agree with JayBeeEll that the way ARS members have supported each others bad behavior is disappointing. Wikiproject's should be able to regulate themselves to some degree. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:02, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  • Dream Focus has been a member of WP:Article Rescue Squadron since 2009. Levivich 15:18, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support per evidence presented. Deletion discussions go into the gutter once this user participates, let's see if removing one bad apple straightens out the rest. Zaathras (talk) 13:17, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• Lightburst is persistent, his views on deletion-related matters are unique and idiosyncratic, and the sources he introduces are often an extreme stretch, but to topic-ban him for incivility is also pretty far out there. He's not even the worst member of the ARS for incivility. To tackle this issue I would recommend that we begin with topic bans for those who have been shown to fabricate source page numbers. For the rest of the ARS I would advocate (1) a restriction to only one comment per AfD and (2) a complete ban against all accusations and attacks on nominators, to include a specific restriction against invoking WP:BEFORE.—S Marshall T/C 13:33, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @S Marshall: I certainly can improve - it has been an evolution and a deep dive into acronyms and conflicting guides, policies and essays. Lightburst (talk) 00:25, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Here one finds evidence for another ARS member inventing page numbers. As for Lb himself, there are some damning accusations here, which I can't personally confirm, though other editors who commented here can. Avilich (talk) 13:57, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

You have also been less than civil at AfD. Here is a double PA that an admin removed. But nobody is calling for your ouster or sanctions. I had already forgot about it and it was less than two weeks ago. Lightburst (talk) 00:39, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

and now he restored the PA. I have no idea why that is ok. even after an admin removed it. Lightburst (talk) 01:45, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Sure, let's go with that. See proposal #2 below.—S Marshall T/C 14:05, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Some more examples of personal attacks and accusations of bad faith from Lightburst just on the AFDs I've been involved in: [46], [47] "attack on history", claiming I'd deleted correct information [48], poisoning wells [49], adhom attacks [50], attacking closer on their Talk Page [51], accusations of bad faith on relisting [52], [53], [54] and [55], [56], [57] Mztourist (talk) 14:07, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Yes, Lightburst can bring a battleground approach to AfD. I don't think I see anything all that egregious in the diffs presented, but that doesn't make them excusable, either. The thing is, and I think this is important, he does seem to regularly improve articles when rescuing them. So I'm surprised to see him as the first concrete proposal following this thread (certainly not the ARS member who comes to my mind first when it comes to being a consistent net negative at AfD). In the case of Lightburst, I'd prefer to see something less than a total topic ban from deletion discussions. Ideally we wouldn't tban someone who regularly improves articles they try to save, and just address the battleground part. Perhaps a formal warning that personalization or a battleground approach to AfD will result in escalating blocks or something along those lines (while we're at it, how about a general announcement along those lines combined with more cracking down of bad behavior at AfD in general). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:12, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  This has come up so many times that a warning would be redundant. Otherwise, this is a limited topic ban as they would still be able to participate in article improvement in mainspace, just not the AfD itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KoA (talk • contribs) 15:28, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  @Rhododendrites: The proposed topic ban does not prevent Lightburst from improving articles that are up for AfD, just from participating in the discussion -- if they improve an article, I'm sure the AfD participants can be relied upon to notice that and take it into account. In other words, this does narrowly address the battleground part. Based on the substance of your comment, I think you should support the proposal. (Also if you want to put together a separate cogent proposal about one of the others, be my guest -- I picked the one I'm personally familiar with.) --JBL (talk) 22:19, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Support. This is actually a good middle ground in this case. The ban from AfDs, etc. would not be a ban on ARS activities when it comes to improving articles. If anything, that is how things should be done with the group. The justification for this is pretty well documented already despite denials from other ARS members when I read over the history. KoA (talk) 15:27, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• Support per above, though since there’s only like four “oppose” votes and three of them are from ARS members this is probably leaning towards a WP:SNOWBALL close. Dronebogus (talk) 15:35, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

FWIW I think it's best to leave this open for 24 hours at the very least. There may be folks who have not had the chance to weigh in, and a hasty close brings the risk of others coming forward with more information that challenges the outcome. –dlthewave ☎ 16:48, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't agree with your numbers. I know I didn't use the word "oppose" in bold, but, read what I wrote.—S Marshall T/C 17:44, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Sorry for my tardiness, it is quite a thing to wake up to. Apologies, I took a year off of editing on the project, and may have had some rust. But I will speak to the edits in the nomination. In one of Jaybeel's examples #38 -I struck that comment myself. I will AGF and assume you missed that. See here: diff Sorry if I go all over the place a bit here but I think I am mostly here because of the the MzTourist. The toursit does not assume good faith and said so both to me and to 7&6 here. I think the tourist is wrong in trying to delete multiple Tuskegee Airmen and poisoning the AfD with an adhom in the nomination. I will take responsibility for #35 and my elevated tone. I did leave that AfD. One can see how bludgeony it is in there even without me. Anyone who ivotes keep get bludgeoned. So I did leave that AfD in #35, and that is the most recent example. Maybe someone can tell me about Jaybeels objection with my saying the this in #37, it was in fact a Supervote and was overturned. Great arguments on both sides - but the consensus was keep. Maybe Jaybeel should illustrate his own response to my ivote there. Saying I made an "Thanks for illustrating the kind of utterly worthless comment (with NPA violation to boot) that any good closer will discard out of hand. ". In #36 above I was trying to be funny. Apologies if that is out of bounds. Look at the subject and I dare you not to laugh out loud. Maybe Jaybeel did not look at the article? let me summarize: Over 40,000 words were written on the article's talk page before a consensus was reached to capitalize the "I".. i am still laughing about it and may spit my coffee out again. It was the definition of pedantic. Many of the other supporters above - I understand, I have ivoted angularly to their deletion goal. I can only call them like I see them. Lately I see ivotes like this. Delete: ping me if anyone finds anything. Delete per nom. I will not call out who they were, but it happens. I won't bore anyone with the personal history I have with any of the supporters of this tban. I will just speak to my own actions, I think I bring a research first approach to AfD. I know I have over participated in some AfDs especially the Tuskegee Airmen AfDs, and so I have tried to participate less - like in the example of the Herbert V. Clark Afd. I am sorry for any disruption I may have caused and I cannot respond to all of the diffs above. I can certainly be more civil and participate less at times and I recognize that. Lightburst (talk) 16:06, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  Is it too much to ask that you spell my username correctly? --JBL (talk) 22:19, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  To be fair and in defense of Lightburst, it's a bit confusing as your signature doesn't match your username. NemesisAT (talk) 22:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  @JayBeeEll: Definitely no attempt to offend you - what NemesisAT said. Regarding your proposal thee purpose of blocks and Ibans and Tbans are to stop disruption. I am disappointed that there was an effort to swing so hard on a proposal to remove me indefinitely from AfDs. I have never been warned for behavior on AfD. I see this as punitive. I am a rational person who can change without being hit with a hammer. Which these measures are not supposed to be. We are all working for free on this great project. Sometimes it is important to remember that somehow the encyclopedia gets built in spite of arguing over whether to capitalize the letter "I". Lightburst (talk) 23:59, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  Thanks, no offense taken. As I have mentioned in response to a couple of other comments, this proposal is structured not to prevent you from building the encyclopedia (and I am happy to accept the assertions of others that you do that well). --JBL (talk) 00:23, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

  @JayBeeEll: It is very large sanction, no simpler sanction or warning has been tried. I am a logical person and can change. I truly did not understand what you meant at DRV. Turns out the guy behind me didn't either. He said Appallingly condescending and egregiously offensive comment by JBL Urselius. it is easy to take someone wrong on here. Lightburst (talk) 01:20, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

  • Lightburst added their name to WP:Article Rescue Squadron/Members on Oct 27, 2021 but has been an ARS participant since before renaming this account, having made 516 edits to WP:Article Rescue Squadron – Rescue list [58], and is the subject of this TBAN proposal. Levivich 15:18, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support. Extensive evidence of canvassing and battleground behavior on WP:AFD; clearly (as a consensus above seems to agree) Wikipedia:Article Rescue Squadron is a net negative for the project and has disrupted discussions it has gotten involved with. This comes down to the activities of its most active members, of which Lightburst is a member. And a topic ban from AFD specifically should not be a big deal - it is not a place where editors should be staking out positions on deletion policy and pouring huge amounts of time into pushing it; what it needs is experts on the specific articles being discussed, rather than factionalism. Note that Lightbursts' "defense" is to re-litigate a massive pile of AFDs, and completely ignore the WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:CANVAS issues that are the real issue here. Take some time off of AFD, contribute elsewhere - save articles before they come to AFD by improving the ones that really need improvement. --Aquillion (talk) 18:09, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• Short-term Tban there's enough tendentious comments/battleground behavior/snide remarks to justify some action. (I still don't agree there is a "canvassing" issue that needs to be addressed.) However, an indef TBAN from AFD is too much, and a "warning" will do nothing. Perhaps 1 month away from voting will correct the issues; Lightburst should be welcome to improve articles that are at AFD in that time. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 19:33, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• Support a short-term t-ban per 力. If Lightburst's ultimate aim is to save notable articles from deletion by improving their sourcing, this can still be done entirely independently of participating in xFD discussions, and showing a track record of doing so without needing to vote, debate, or argue tendentiously would be a boon to all sides. ᵹʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 19:45, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• Support, with a ban on DEPRODing as well. The closing administrator would be wise to ascertain what is the ARS voting position here, and what is the community's voting position. William Harris (talk) 20:27, 31 October 2021
• Support I think my above comments provide my reasoning. -Indy beetle (talk) 21:08, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose – a good editor and a net positive. His actions were not egregious - the most they warrant is a warning. Canceling out a participant who does the hard work at AfD (and he does it mainly by substantially IMPROVING articles) should not our goal. Indeed, his record in starting new articles is commendable. This man is an asset to the encyclopedia.
  Censoring opposing viewpoints and editing when AFDs is unbecoming of Wikipedia. All editors are created equal.
  From what I can see this editor never even had a warning for AfD behavior.
  I hesitated to raise this, as I foresee that I will be a detriment to his defense. Apparently some of you think that I am guilty as charged, notwithstanding the evidence to the contrary.
  There are those who will see this as further proof that there is an ARS cabal that should be squashed. Truth be told, ARS has 500 subsribers, and very few of them contribute. You have made a mountain out of a molehill. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 23:11, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
  • 7&6=thirteen has been a member of WP:Article Rescue Squadron since 2017 and has made 755 edits to WP:Article Rescue Squadron – Rescue list [59], and is the subject of a TBAN proposal below. Levivich 15:18, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Some of might remember an RFA that did not go well for the candidate. After the thing was crashed and the candidate was destroyed we found out the guy had a heart attack. I was a "no" ivote at that AfD and I was sad. It helps to remember there are rational people at the end of these fake names. I have never even been warned about any behavior at AfD. And now I have to watch the World Series. Lightburst (talk) 00:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Doubling down on the Chewbacca defense with a side of Shaggy dog story isn’t going to convince anyone of anything. Dronebogus (talk) 01:46, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support for indef tban. Most of the linked "personal attacks" are a pretty big stretch. What I see as an uninvolved editor is a bunch of shitty !votes at AfD and light canvassing. I don't think any of these actually rise of "personal attacks" that we block for. A lot more editors have gotten away with a lot less, and it seems like we're just trying to kill Lightburst as the sacrificial lamb and imputing all of the sins of ARS onto them. Calling the deletion of a Tuskegee airman an "attack on history" [60] is pretty strong but it's not a personal attack. Nor is accusing an admin of supervoting in a DRV, given that DRV is effectively a process to determine whether the admin did in fact supervote. [61] These NPA claims are baseless and without merit. But the AfD !votes are garbage. It's not Lightburst disagreeing with others or disagreeing how a policy should be applied; or even just misunderstanding policy. Lightburst has consistently demonstrated a pattern of !voting with complete disregard as to what policies actually mean. Unironically !voting WP:ILIKEIT and using a non-specific comic strip (xkcd presumably) as a gauge of notability [62] is useless and disruptive. So is !voting "lol". [63] So is the nonsensical citing of WP:GEOPURP as a notability criteria in and of itself at Philip Linn Pioneer Cemetary. [64] This is actively disruptive behaviour in the manner of a sovereign citizen; in the sense that Lightburst is making legitimate sounding arguments that deliberately misconstrue the wording of policy to create points that have no basis whatsoever (for the record, I am not calling Lightburst a terrorist). This is a waste of time and disruptive. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 03:16, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@Chess: Didn't ivote lol. Here is the thread: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2013 Wikipedia Star Trek Into Darkness controversy. There was a comic strip in there describing the pedantic dispute by Cartoonist Randall Munroe. Commons deleted for license. It was also funny. But regarding the AfDs - I have ivoted or otherwise participated in many, and I mostly have cogent arguments. Have a look through a few that are not selected to make me look incompetent. My cemetery rationales I outlined, sometimes a novel argument can make me people consider. In the case of GEO the same three editors go to every one and they all basically ivote the same. Arguing GEOPURP is a loser as it has distracted editors and made it seem as if I am being obtuse, I was saying the purpose of the guideline was to consider a geographical feature is any reasonably permanent or historic feature of the Earth, whether natural or artificial.. That is what I interpret a cemetery to be. We keep lakes, streams, and permanent man made structures that fit our criteria. The idea was rejected. That is how AfD works, if we all arrive there and rubber stamp the AfD we are not doing our due dilligance. I had no intent to disrupt or engage in NOTTHERE behavior. I have been in this ANI too much, but it is stressful when a long record of contributions is mischaracterized. Lightburst (talk) 03:56, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose The cited examples are at best reason to issue a warning over focusing on the content not the person, an indef topic ban without a prior warning is a very severe reaction. -- GreenC 03:28, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
  • GreenC is not listed at WP:Article Rescue Squadron/Members but has edited WP:Article Rescue Squadron – Rescue list 190 times [65] and votes with ARS, for example at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Harry F. Bauer, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alanna Devine, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/William Mahlon Davis, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mac Ross. Levivich 15:18, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose: It's quite hard to tell if the accusations being leveled here really warrant an indefinite tban -- a lot of the people commenting here are themselves quite ardent AfD warriors. But maybe they do. It is something that should be settled through an actual arbitration procedure, rather than a twenty-four hour walltext marathon, appended to the most asininely long AN/I thread in months, on Halloween. Before someone accuses me of being an "ARSEHOLE", note that I am not a member of ARS and I do not check their article lists; furthermore, I said the same thing (i.e. that defenestration was silly and unnecessary) when someone made a thread here to defenestrate Mztourist a few weeks ago. jp×g 09:52, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• User:JPxG what are you referring to in relation to me? Mztourist (talk) 10:36, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@JPxG: Thanks. I love your reasoned and researched AfD ivotes on the project. you were instrumental in several. I certainly want there to be less animosity everywhere and I have to work on myself first. It is old news but I did not want anyone to think it is invented. Here is the ARShole moniker being used in sentences, notice I twice reverted it as a PA, but the (admin who claims to have coined the term), and Serial# agreed that it was not a PA. ARSholes. People are quick to show their bonafides - and compete with each other to show their disdain for the project or the ARSholes in it. I left the project for a year shortly after that exchange. Lightburst (talk) 13:59, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Proposal #2: Topic ban for 7&6=thirteen

Based on the evidence here this user seems to have fabricated page numbers and, likely, falsified a source in an effort to prevent an article being deleted. I propose a topic ban from AfD.—S Marshall T/C 14:05, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

The article has been deleted, and I don't remember which book it was exactly, though I remember checking and confirming it myself, and I'm pretty sure Mztourist's comment about there only being 223 pages and not 386, 512 or 514 as 7&6=13 claimed is basically accurate. He could've simply been careless and not acting in bad faith, but I'm not aware of him retracting his statement afterwards; he never came back to answer the charges I explicitly laid before him at that discussion, and his contribution to that AfD, like many many others, was simply saying "the article has been improved since nomination" (really, he always says that). Avilich (talk) 14:16, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't recall the book name, but it was very clear that the pages didn't exist and as Avilich notes, 7&6=13 didn't respond to the comment. Mztourist (talk) 15:04, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Click on "search inside" and then "Display all" in the book. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:39, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Appears to be this one, which ends at page 223 or 224. He was pinged after the error was noticed; a response/clarification would've been nice. Avilich (talk) 15:15, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes that's it. Mztourist (talk) 15:24, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I used the "Search Inside" function and didn't find any results for "Reginald". Am I missing something here? –dlthewave ☎ 18:43, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I also used the "Search Inside" function and didn't find any results for "Reginald". (Is it possible that Google Books makes certain parts of the book available and unavailable across time?). William Harris (talk) 22:02, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

@William Harris: That's because everyone is looking at the wrong book. See below. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 22:08, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, you are correct. William Harris (talk) 23:31, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose This example could have been malicious or as already mentioned above it could simply be an error. The lack of response is frustrating but I don't think its grounds for a ban from participating in deletion discussions. NemesisAT (talk) 15:22, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Alone this wouldn't be grounds for a tban, but his use of ARS for canvassing (1, 2), coupled with his spamming of WP:HEY in multiple discussions (1, 2) and overall tendency to throw around keep votes just for the sake of it (as in here, to which he was canvassed), calls into question the idea that he was there to genuinely improve the article in the first place, rather than simply on an inclusionist crusade. Avilich (talk) 15:42, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• What does "spamming of WP:HEY" mean exactly? They told me not to say "No compliance" or poor compliance with WP:Before. So I don't. And if the article is improved with substantial additions of content, that's an impermissible observation now too? See here. And the deletionists and ARS worked together. Your prerestraints on my right to express my WP:Good faith opinion is a bridge too far. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 23:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  Whether ARS activities should be regarded as canvassing is disputed, per the above discussion, and I feel it is a separate issue. There is nothing wrong with citing WP:HEY and votes with poor or no reasoning, or "per nom" votes are common and certainly not a serious offense punishable by a ban from participating in deletion discussions. The proposal was on the basis of falsifying sources, and for now I don't think enough evidence has been provided for a ban to be warranted. NemesisAT (talk) 15:57, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't know where you've been all this time, but the evidence for canvassing is unequivocal and indisputable, per the discussion above and the evidence at ARS. I just showed you an example of him and the usual suspects teaming up (through ARS) to obstruct the AfD nomination of a well-meaning editor with subject-matter knowledge. He's not on trial just for misrepresenting a source; that's just the formal pretext and the tip of the iceberg. And while unproductive AfD votes are not technically grounds for blocking someone, they indicate and exacerbate this sort of behavior. Avilich (talk) 18:25, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Yes, he is on trial, if you like, for falsifying a source. That's really serious misconduct.—S Marshall T/C 19:19, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Read my comment again, I agreed with you Avilich (talk) 20:46, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

NemesisAT is not listed at WP:Article Rescue Squadron/Members, but in their past 200 AFDs in the last four months, they've !voted "keep" 95.9% of the time [66], and has voted with ARS, for example at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Willie H. Fuller, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Big John (dinosaur), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jones (third baseman), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of stock characters in military fiction, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/George L. Knox II. Levivich 15:25, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Support the falsified source was unacceptable. That together with their prior warning [67] and more recent comments such as these: [68], [69], [70] and [71] show an ongoing problem Mztourist (talk) 15:23, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I was ignoring this and hoping it would wither on the vine. I guess I was wrong.

I got a notice that I have fabricated references. Not true. It is possible that the display in google books (when you ask it to show all the references in the book) showed on screen content and pages that were inconsistent with the hard copy. Which of my 140,000 edits and 14 years of editing are you talking about? What was in it for me? I would also say that I often improve articles and sometimes vote at AFDs.

I do not ever say any more that there has been bad or no compliance with WP:Before, even when the article improvements convincingly demonstrate that fact.

There are folks participating here who have over the years expressed enmity toward me and WP:ARS. MZ:Tourist has been vocal and a deliberate disruptor at WP:ARS. You don’t like opposing views at AFD or improvement of articles. But I do not choose to respond in kind.

Apparently the only acceptable votes at AFDs are Delete or Merge. You are culling the voters; and deciding who gets to vote based on scoreboarding and outcomes. I try to improve articles and seldom vote. I choose not to blindly vote keep; and I do not participate on many articles that appear on the rescue squad page.

Reasonable minds may differ as to whether articles should be kept or culled. That there is an opposing view is a hallmark of fair debate and a catalyst for balanced consideration. And when it is posted at ARS, articles are in fact often improved. That some of you don't like the improvements or the sources is no proof of misconduct by the improving editors.

I have successfully helped rescue many articles, and then taken them on to the main page at WP:DYK. That was because I improved the articles. Conversely, when that happens, it is prima facie evidence that WP:Before was ignored or done haphazardly. I don't write that at AFDs any longer, but it is a fact. And it is not a "personal attack."

FWIW, I am not singling out the repeat deletionists who are partipating here. And I am not asking that they be banned from participaitn at AFD.

I have been affronted by the efforts of some of you to mass delete groups of articles. You know who you are. (Apparently we are not allowed to name names on defense; while these persecutors are immune.) And I will continue to oppose that kind of conduct.

The current effort at ANI is 'guilt by association' and has nothing to do with individual editors and their conduct. 7&6=thirteen (☎)

• Calling everyone you don’t like a hater deletionist doesn’t work when there’s direct evidence of misconduct on the table which you haven’t refuted. Dronebogus (talk) 15:46, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Yes making more personal attacks on me with the comment "MZ:Tourist has been vocal and a deliberate disruptor at WP:ARS. You don’t like opposing views at AFD or improvement of articles." just further strengthens the case. Mztourist (talk) 16:17, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose one of the best editors on the project. I worked with him many times and I can give a few examples of our tag teams, Bertha Boronda, Put on airs - and many more. I am quite stunned by the efforts here. He has cogent arguments at AfDs. we can all get a bit snippy in AfDs, and we do not tban people for mistakes. And as i said above MzTourist said he does not AGF regarding 7&6 here. Lightburst (talk) 16:12, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• And given my previous recent history with 7&6 as detailed in my Support above, not AGFing from them is a perfectly reasonable position to take. Mztourist (talk) 16:15, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Thanks for pointing us to Bertha Boronda where 7&6 made this comment to User:Clarityfiend in their edit summary [[72]] "precursor (you are picking fly turds our of pepper)" Mztourist (talk) 16:28, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Lightburst added their name to WP:Article Rescue Squadron/Members on Oct 27, 2021 but has been an ARS participant since before renaming this account, having made 516 edits to WP:Article Rescue Squadron – Rescue list [73], and is the subject of a TBAN proposal above. Levivich 15:25, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose He has done quite a lot of work on articles. [74] list some of them. A valuable contributor to the encyclopedia who creates valid content. If anyone has a complaint against him who isn't also constantly arguing with him in deletion discussions, please, post away. I'm curious about your opinions in this. Dream Focus 16:22, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
  • You do realize this is just a topic ban, right? We’re not kicking them off the encyclopedia. Dronebogus (talk) 16:24, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• User:Dream Focus I'm sure several Users who 7&6 edit warred with on Big John (dinosaur) five days ago would complain if they were aware of this discussion, do you want to notify them? Mztourist (talk) 16:29, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

There was no "edit war" at Big John (dinosaur). I disagreed with the editors who wanted to delete it. And I added WP:RSs, which are still in the article

And I did not come to WP:ANI to initiate a complaint. I have been importuned to intervene. And I have been lied about; so I do not want someone to take my silence as some sort of an admission of guilt. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:28, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Really? User:Hemiauchenia clearly didn't think so which is why they placed an edit war warning on your Talk Page: [75]. Mztourist (talk) 03:15, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Dream Focus has been a member of WP:Article Rescue Squadron since 2009. Levivich 15:25, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Support. Plenty of evidence of WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior on AFD, which makes the mistakes above hard to credit; likewise, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that they're WP:CANVASSing in order to "save" articles from AFD. We don't need a repeat of the old deletionist / inclusionist factionalism that used to surround AFD, and the easiest way to prevent it from recurring is with topic-bans for people who get too battleground-y there. For the people above who say that he has good edits elsewhere, sure - the whole idea behind a topic ban is that an editor's problems are confined to a specific area. They'd still be able to improve articles, just not contribute on AFD or on discussions and wikiprojects (like Wikipedia:Article Rescue Squadron) manifestly about it. And the reality is that it does seem like their contributions on those places have become combative, disruptive, and - even by the most lenient interpretation of the errors above - careless enough that it would be better if they focused their attention elsewhere. --Aquillion (talk) 18:02, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• Support per Aquillion. Dronebogus (talk) 18:18, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• Comment I'm struggling to wrap my head around the whole page numbers thing. GBooks is essentially a scan of the hard copy, which could be off by a few pages due to title pages etc, but nearly 300 pages seems implausible especially since Amazon shows 223 pages for the hardcover version. I'm also not finding any results for "Reginald" when using the Search Inside function. Even if there is some sort of mismatch, it's unclear why an experienced editor in possession of a hard copy would cite Google Books without verifying the page numbers. Admitting that you screwed up would go a long way towards building goodwill with your fellow editors. See below –dlthewave ☎ 18:41, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I did not say I was in posssession of a hard copy. That is your assumption. I can assure you I did not make this stuff up. These were all good faith edits. WP:AGF apparently has been repealed, too.

And if I erred, it was unintentional. If I screwed up, I apologize. And if I screwed up, it was undone by one of our other esteemed editors. I did not put it back that I recall. So confession may be good for the soul, but once it was undone there was no point. Other than to make you and your friends feel better.

That AFDs are sometimes overly long and positional is true.

But my comments are limited solely to the merits of the AFD and the quality of the article, the sourcing and the potential sourcing. That there are folks that have chosen to do masss deletions and ignore WP:Before is not my fault.

You ought not to make it your business to tell editors what the acceptable votes are at AFD. Nor should you be purging the voting rolls of those who choose not to grease the wheels of the oncoming train, even if the result seems predestined to you. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:13, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• How can that possibly have been an accidental error? I can't envisage any way that could have happened.—S Marshall T/C 19:17, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Update I'm convinced by Suffusion of Yellow's discovery that the page numbers were a good faith error, not an intentional misrepresentation, and I won't support a block based on that. However, the above comment about "purging voter roles" and "greasing wheels" is the troubling type of personal accusation that we see all the time from ARS participants and 7&6-thirteen would be well advised to steer clear of such comments. I'll keep an eye on this thread and may consider a "support" or "oppose" !vote depending on what evidence is brought forward. –dlthewave ☎ 12:18, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose if the evidence has been deleted, this will need to go to ARBCOM. Presumably the editor intended to refer to some book other than [76], a book with more pages and mentions of Reginald Smith. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 19:39, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• User:7&6=thirteen, did you maybe mean The Tuskegee Airmen: The Men who Changed a Nation by Charles E. Francis? Because I a find Reginald V. Smith mentioned on pages 384, 512, and 514 there. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 19:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  Even if that's the book 7&6 meant, there's nothing on those pages that supports the sentence "His wife Rogers Mae and sister Annie Marietta Smith-Randolph attended his graduation", which is what 7&6 appended the ref to. Deor (talk) 20:00, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  @Deor: But we're not talking about "fabrication" anymore, are we? The book exists, and Smith in mentioned on those pages. Maybe 7&6 just appended it to the wrong sentence. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 20:08, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  @Suffusion of Yellow: To me, adding a citation that doesn't support what it's supposedly referencing qualifies as falsification of a reference; that the referenced work exists is immaterial. The only thing supported by those pages (two lists and a caption) is that Smith graduated in 1945—which was already referenced in the article—and mere listings certainly contribute nothing to notability. Deor (talk) 20:30, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  Or, it could have been a mistake. That is, we can now envisage any way that could have happened. Deor (or any admin), do you mind undeleting the article to user or draftspace, so we can at least see who added what where, and when? It's impossible to tell from the archive.org copy. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 20:38, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  I'm sorry, but I don't recall what I was doing. I think I added several books but honestly don't recall. You edit articles, and move on. I may have mixed them up. Human error will exist in 141,000 edits. Sorry. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 20:15, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  • That's presumably the correct book given the coincidence of page numbers, but even so, the pages appear to be entirely devoid of prose, so it's not clear that this should be referenced to anything at all. I can't see the full pages, but, from what I can make of the snippets, it's just a collection of names, possibly part of some image caption or roster, or both. Avilich (talk) 20:39, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

    The subject of this thread is not "Is that an ideal reference?". I can see the full text (must be regional copyright thing...), and it is not. This sub-thread was started with the premise that 7&6 fabricated page numbers and some people have already voted to TBAN 7&6 based on that. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 20:51, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I didn't vote against anyone as of now, and I'm not even in favor of making this source affair the center of this whole deal; the overall collective behavior of ARS should still be the focus here, and evidence against individual members should be viewed with that in mind. Deor seems to disagree with you on the contents of the source, though. Avilich (talk) 21:08, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Suffusion of Yellow making a mistake is one thing, 7&6 failing to address that mistake when I pointed it out, specifically tagging them: [77] and then commenting above "I was ignoring this and hoping it would wither on the vine." shows more intractable behavior. There are also numerous examples of battleground behavior and personal attacks and incivility shown by 7&6. Mztourist (talk) 03:30, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

I haven't had a chance to fully weigh the merits of this particular topic ban proposal yet, but I will echo Mztourist that this example and related responses are a highlights of WP:TENDENTIOUS editing. While in isolation they may just seem inconvenient, but a consistent pattern is disruptive, a time sink, and often hidden either purposely or by obliviousness by claiming it wasn't so bad. At the least, there is merit here that 7&6 has individual issues related to the larger ARS problems that go beyond just simple mistakes. KoA (talk) 04:02, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Kudos to Suffusion of Yellow who has provided a reasonable explanation – that this was confusion between two sources. When working on content, some editors tend to have many tabs open as they compile information from a variety of sources. As some passages may involve more than one source, it's then easy to get them mixed up.

Confusion like this is why we have the guidance to assume good faith. Per Hanlon's razor, the general rule is that a cock-up is usually a more plausible explanation than a conspiracy when something goes wrong. See also Murphy's law.

Andrew🐉(talk) 20:47, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Andrew Davidson has been a member of WP:Article Rescue Squadron since 2008, and is the subject of a TBAN proposal below. Levivich 15:25, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Support - The page numbers thing is a problem, and if his user was willing to accept responsibility for it then why would another user need to explain their mistake? Refusal to accept responsibility is an ARS problem. Also this user’s desperate dressing up of the Attack On HMS Invincible article (deleted with solid consensus) shows they aren’t doing us as much good at AfD as they could. Since they don’t seem to show any indications of sincerely willing to improve its best they be told to move their efforts elsewhere. -Indy beetle (talk) 21:14, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose since I haven't said so explicitly above. No, I haven't looked into the greater issue, but the well has been poisoned with an accusation than can no longer be supported. Would we really be having a thread about topic-banning right now, if 7&6 had cited the correct book in the first place? Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 21:25, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Probably yes, since he was already singled out as one of the four special ARS editors above, and it's not like the problem with ARS starts or ends with wrong referencing, anyway. If you want more evidence of poor referencing habits, there was an AfD I participated not long ago in which he added refs with only image captions and no prose to support a non-trivial statement that was not otherwise properly sourced. And there's also this grotesque cite-bomb: here he seems to have simply searched the subject's name in each book, taken note of every single page number for which there was the even the most trivial of matches, and dumped everything in one place, without bothering to check if the ref actually matched with the corresponding sentence or was even adequate.

  I can believe that in each and every one of these occasions he was acting in good faith, in the sense that improvement, not disruption, was his sincere objective. But when you resort to keeping superficial appearances of notability and making the sorting-out process as difficult and nightmarish as you can, coupled with blatant canvassing (which was already acknowledged even before this vote started), then you're not being a positive element on AfD. Avilich (talk) 00:45, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@Avilich: could you explain in more detail the problem with the first diff you linked (Special:Diff/1046265521)? It looks like that diff added four citations. Which of them did you have an issue with, and why? Colin M (talk) 01:04, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

I should've mentioned that I was referring to the ones highlighted in blue specifically, though I did notice the others too. The second is a picture where the subject appears and that's it, no prose. In the first, he seems to be mentioned in a listing of individuals, possibly as part of an image caption. I can't see the whole page, but the snippet says, "Back row: (...) [subject] (...)", and doesn't appear to indicate any sort of significant prose commentary. Avilich (talk) 01:18, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't see the issue with the second cite. I'm looking at the page now, and the caption does verify part of the accompanying sentence (that Fuller was a member of class 42-G). I could see an argument that the sentence is overcited, but it's not totally obvious - e.g. if the first three (web) sources are considered to be only marginally reliable, it might be worthwhile to add "redundant" cites to published books, even if they only verify a portion of the claim. Colin M (talk) 02:12, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

It gives the partial name at most, and only because the picture is of the class to begin with. It's not clear at all that redundancy was the intent, let alone appropriate. The web sources for this specific batch of articles tended to be unreliable and user-submitted, a point which was extensively brought up in the corresponding AfDs. The correct thing would have been to simply remove them. Avilich (talk) 03:17, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@Avilich: and re the second linked diff (Special:Diff/1044077685). You say that "he seems to have simply searched the subject's name in each book... and dumped everything in one place, without bothering to check if the ref actually matched". But did you bother to check whether any of the refs didn't match? If not, this seems like simply an assumption of bad faith. Also, I think it's worth noting that the edit you linked was the first of a long series of consecutive edits made by 7&6=thirteen over the course of a day. Looking at that diff, my initial assumption was that he just swooped in and dropped a huge number of refs in the intro without improving the article in any other way. But the full diff incorporating all 53 of those edits, shows a very different story - it appears he made a lot of substantial changes throughout the article. Colin M (talk) 01:17, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

The cite bomb is still there, he just relegated it to a footnote. And yes, I did do a check. Typically all the pages in which the subject is mentioned are cited, even the indexes and captions. As for the other improvements, again, I don't think he lied or acted with malice, but what's being discussed here is his stance and conduct in AfD, not his basic competence in everyday editorial procedures. Avilich (talk) 01:38, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Support I agree the page number thing is a problem. One of many really. While Suffusion of Yellow's explanation is plausible, it's just as plausible that 7&6=thirteen never addressed it because they knew they made it up or were otherwise being miss-leading. Otherwise, they could have just dealt with it at the time when they where asked by multiple people why the page numbers were off. At his point it just seems like a post-hoc justification for bad behavior though and it's not like that's their only issue. Including other times where they were extremely lose with providing accurate sourcing. It's not that far of a stretch that someone who chronically shows zero respect for the process, guidelines, and nominators might make up page numbers or lie about what a book says. In the meantime 7&6=thirteen's dismissive and combative comments here haven't done anything to make me think it was a good faith mistake and not just an intentional BATTLEGROUND move, that they and ARS members are now trying to make excuses about and blame others for. So we are long past the opportunity to AGF about it. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Really? I guess 14 years of faithful service (presumably complete with mistakes) won't persuade you.

Let he who is without error cast the first stone.

Disappointed. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 22:56, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I was recently blocked and took a self imposed 3 month break from AfD because I couldn't handle it without acting inappropriately. I think that was the right thing to do. Both my mental health and the project are better off. So at least my case I'm coming at this from a completely none privileged perspective of what is the best option for everyone involved. You can still improve articles if you aren't involved in AfDs and likely in a much more productive way then treating AfDs like a battleground. --Adamant1 (talk) 23:08, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose, as there is a good faith explanation for the error.Jackattack1597 (talk) 23:25, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
  • No: there really isn't. Look, this is core policy stuff. WP:V requires that material that's challenged or likely to be challenged is supported by an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material. It then goes on to say The cited source must clearly support the material as presented in the article. Cite the source clearly, ideally giving page number(s). And when an editor does supply an inline citation to a reliable source, we assume that they've done it in good faith. In this case, the user cited the wrong book, and when we look at the page in the book they meant to cite, it doesn't support the material. That's utterly reckless behaviour. It means that all the citations that this user has provided at AfD need to be checked by someone who takes more care.—S Marshall T/C 00:24, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
    • So anyone who accidentally copy-pastes the wrong title, or URL, or transposes the digits of a page number, or makes any other mindless error in the course of referencing should be banned from the project? That seems like an incredibly harsh policy. Anyone could make such a mistake. I'm sure I've done so in the past, and encountered plenty of examples in the wild left by other editors - when I do, I fix them, the same way I would fix a typo or any other error. (Here is just one example I recall off the top of my head - in a GA no less! We worked on fixing the issue - it never occurred to us to seek the head of the editor that introduced it.) Colin M (talk) 00:57, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
      • But this isn't just a copy/paste error. The citation this user intended to add doesn't actually support the claim being made.—S Marshall T/C 09:26, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
        • Ah, sorry, I didn't read your comment carefully enough. (I missed the detail of it being the wrong book and inappropriate page numbers. That makes it less straightforward.) Colin M (talk) 09:37, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• See my reply to Suffusion of Yellow's oppose vote above. Good-faith or not, this is not just about a single mistake, it concerns chronic behavior. Avilich (talk) 00:55, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Jackattack1597 good faith would have been acknowledging and correcting the mistake at the time not adopting the attitude of "I was ignoring this and hoping it would wither on the vine." as 7&6 stated above. As Avilich notes and as shown by various diffs above on just my encounters with 7&6 this is chronic behavior. Mztourist (talk) 03:19, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Falsified page numbers? How many times did this happen? Links? Seems a bit detailed - and why would one, as you don't need page numbers in a reference. Nfitz (talk) 01:25, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose The proposed punishment far outweighs the supposed infraction. Anyone who does a lot of work in AfD or Wikipedia generally, it's inevitable reasons for complaint can be generated. It's a logical fallacy cherry picking], sifting through reams of edit history ignoring the positive contributions. Basically what I see here is an attempt to find an objective reason for banning, but there is nothing to see here but mistakes that could be good faith and differences of opinion over what is a reliable source. -- GreenC 03:18, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

S Marshall, While the claim of source falsification is serious, mistakes happen - I will play devil's advocate again and note that on a few occasions I've used wrong page numbers too by copy paste or typo accident. Before I vote here, I'd like to see what 7&6 has to say in their defense, and whether there is any evidence there is a pattern of low-quality or fraudelent voting. I am not prepared to endorse a topic ban based on a single wrong ref added to an article. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:02, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

It's not just a wrong page number: the citations this user intended to add don't support the claim being made. It's not a single wrong ref: it's three times in the same article.—S Marshall T/C 09:45, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@S Marshall I'll trust you on that, but did this happen in another article or several? I am still willing to AGF that when something like this happens once, in a single article, it may be some sort of unintentoonal error or misunderstanding. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:21, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• GreenC is not listed at WP:Article Rescue Squadron/Members but has edited WP:Article Rescue Squadron – Rescue list 190 times [78] and votes with ARS, for example at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Harry F. Bauer, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alanna Devine, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/William Mahlon Davis, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mac Ross. Levivich 15:25, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose a topic ban based on a single alleged error; I say "alleged" because the page in question has been deleted and hardly anybody even seems to have a solid grasp of what the hell it was (or what the book was). If this is really a big enough deal for a topic ban, surely it's a big enough deal that people should actually see the evidence (e.g. in an ArbCom case)? jp×g 09:57, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Oppose: Unless this is a consistent pattern, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. I'd rather not burn someone over what could be an honest mistake, following Hanlon's razor. I don't intend this as a general statement about their behavior at AfD. There could be other reasons necessitating intervention, but I don't think it should be based on this particular matter (again, absent further evidence of malice). – Anon423 (talk) 10:20, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Falsifying sources is indeed most serious, but as others are saying we should want several more examples before assuming it wasn't a good faith mistake. As admitted back in March I've made the mistake of adding content not supported by the source myself, no one can be perfect all the time. If anything, it's probably better for content creators to make a very occasional OR type mistake rather than erring in the other direction and sticking so close to the sources that they violate copyright. FeydHuxtable (talk) 13:38, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
  • FeydHuxtable has been a member of WP:Article Rescue Squadron since 2009. Levivich 15:25, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Well, this is proving useful, I see

Proposals to topic-ban certain editors from certain areas, mainly because they are part of a canvassing team voting en masse on AfDs, is promptly voted on en masse by said editors and their ARS fellow travellers. If you actually want to do anything about this problem, ArbCom is the only venue, for that exact reason. Black Kite (talk) 18:16, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Eh, I say give it more than a day as I have faith in our colleagues' abilities to close discussions. (And maybe we could merge these subsections into one discussion subsection?) Levivich 19:22, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• And why can't the person who closes this discussion just weigh the arguments and make a decision. If there's no consensus, that's when arbcom should enter the discussion IMO, and not before. In general, I think it just adds noise to these noticeboard threads when people throw their hands up part-way in, when proposals are still being developed, splintering the discussion to include "go to arbcom" as a viable outcome. "Go to arbcom" shouldn't be an outcome at ANI; it should be what happens when everyone tries their hardest to resolve things at ANI and fails. If a bunch of people decide it's not even worth it to try, that more or less ensures that ANI will fail. Meh. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 21:38, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

And why can't the person who closes this discussion just weigh the arguments and make a decision. WP:BLUDGEON or WP:TE illustrate why it's not always so simple. In all honesty though, that's likely backfiring here and instead creating an ample WP:ROPE situation they are putting themselves into. The issue is how much effort it takes for the community to sort through all that at AfD or here, which is where I can see Black Kite's frustration coming from. KoA (talk) 03:27, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• @Black Kite: Yes, it has produced en masse voting by said editors; but after 23 hours they're outnumbered roughly 2-to-1 in the section above concerning Lightburst. Perhaps you should add your voice there, as well. --JBL (talk) 00:04, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Best solution of all. Close this, and open a discussion about this at ArbCom noticeboard.

It seems that this discussion about something serious is not getting anywhere on ANI. Usually when something serious is going nowhere on ANI, it is closed and the problem is brought up to ArbCom (one-level above ANI). Seriously, I do not think this discussion on ANI is going to get anywhere due to conflict of interest, as many of those with power at AfD and ARS usually are Admins. It's like we here at ANI are asking Admins to solve problems with Admins. In my opinion, even if there are Admins at ArbCom, they usually are not the ones who will have a conflict of interest. Therefore, it would be wise to close this thread, and inform ArbCom to make a discussion on their noticeboard, about the issue. That or, just move this entire Wall-o'-Monster to ArbCom. I am more keen on the first one. Aceing_Winter_Snows_Harsh_Cold (talk) 18:30, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I tend to agree with your assessment. What happens at ANI is we get a WP:CONLIMITED and many ivotes are colored by old grievances and perceived slights - evidenced by the discussion and diffs from two years ago etc. Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but ANI is for stopping an immediate disruption, and ARB is for persistent disruption. For my part I will stop all editing on the project while this is debated or arbitrated. Lightburst (talk) 19:27, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• The problem as I see it is that AfD is an adversial process which, by its nature, tends to generate conflict rather than collaboration. It has always been this way and that's why we have a long-standing article about deletionism and inclusionism in Wikipedia. I was looking at that recently and found an interesting paper based on a study of about 2 million AfDs from 2005 to 2018. You can read it for yourself but what stuck out for me were the following points:

1. "AfD participants cluster in two major groups, colloquially referred to as the ‘inclusionists’ ... and the ‘deletionists’ ..., which suggest the presence of substantial social bias in the AfD process overall."
2. "the administrators who close the discussions do have an effect on the final outcome."
3. " there are strongly polarized groups in the AfD community, and that the evolution of group structure in different cohorts of editors reflects different historical periods"
4. "In particular, we find that one group (strong deletionists) is much less susceptible to change than others."
5. "the proportion of Delete to Keep votes is roughly 68%, while for outcomes it is 77%. This suggests that delete votes are more decisive."
6. "4 main groups, roughly corresponding to the following classes of users: a) strong deletionists, b) moderate deletionists, c) moderate inclusionists and d) strong inclusionists."
7. "Editors who joined before 2007 tend to overwhelmingly belong to the more central parts of the network. These earlier cohorts are not only formed by more experienced and more active editors, but they are also the largest"
8. "Editors involved in AfD discussions adapt to a particular voting tendency early during their tenure in the AfD process. This is reminiscent of results from prior work, that found that highly active contributors are active from a very early stage. In the context of AfD discussions, this finding could potentially suggest the presence of social learning mechanisms, for example due to imitation. Also, strong deletionists seem more resistant to changing their opinions compared to other groups. More generally, an interesting open question is to determine which stable user characteristics in peer production systems are due to learning phenomena or to the presence of inherent individual traits."

So far as this discussion is concerned, the relevant point is that editors seem to form clusters on the inclusionist/deletionist spectrum. And, of course, the strong inclusionists won't tend to get along with the strong deletionists. That's all we're seeing here – a natural antagonism which is generated by the process. It's a structural, systematic issue.

Andrew🐉(talk) 19:35, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate you citing a quality source, and providing quotatiosn - if only you could do this at AfDs. Regardless, a structural, systemic issuse needs to be addressed by the community. And sometimes the solution is to change policies (like, let's say, requiring deprods to have informative edit summaries) and/or force editors who commonly disregard some policcies (like CIV, AGF, etc.) to follow them, through various sanctions. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:25, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Looking over the two proposals ArbCom might be the answer for 7&6=thirteen, but there seems to be a clear consensus to topic ban Lightburst. Either way I don't see why both proposals can't play out first though. There isn't any evidence that it's something ANI is completely unable to deal with. I'm sure the closer will consider the COIs with ARS members. As well as taking other relevant factors into account. If not, then IMO that's when ArbCom would be appropriate. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:29, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

@Adamant1: Right, that sounds legit. Cancel the opposition. I am sure you know that a good closer will weigh the arguments and not just head count. It might also be a conflict of interest for those who support my ouster who are still smarting over something from years ago. All that matters at ANI is whether there is an immediate disruption and can it be corrected. The choice should be for the least possible non punitive means of stopping the disruption. Not cancelling people without a warning. Here is an example of a PA against me at AfD an admin had to remove it because the user would not allow me to strike it. Then he added a second PA. Nobody is warning them or threatening to tban them even though they bludgeoned multiple AfDs. i think we are all on the same side, and working toward the same goal. I have owned my behavior, and I think we all should. Lightburst (talk) 01:10, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

And if you can believe it, he restored the PA. Remember it is not a PA if it insults an ARS member Lightburst (talk) 01:43, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• • Doubling (tripling?) down on your persecution complex isn’t helping your case. Dronebogus (talk) 01:49, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

For the record, his account isn't very accurate. The so-called 'personal attack' was me asking him not to be willfully ignorant after he distorted a statement of mine. The admin only deleted the conversation after I launched the second so-called 'personal attack', when I asked him to stop 'acting like an immature child' after he had repeatedly edited my own comment with my own signature. Sure, that second comment may have been an overreaction on my part, but your conduct was hardly exemplary either. Avilich (talk) 02:05, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@Avilich: I had already forgot about it until I saw your name in here today. I was shocked to see you put it back in there today. I see the AfD closed and sadly is now the permanent record. Lightburst (talk) 02:16, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Looks like my effort was called out by the closer. I found quite a few sources very quickly. I see it even changed someone's mind in there. AfD works like that. Lightburst (talk) 02:27, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@Lightburst: I went out of my way to say that the closing admin should consider other factors because I am aware that some users who are involved in this might have long-standing problems with you that might be affecting their judgement. Although, that would make sense considering how many people you've gotten into it with. I don't see that the same way as the clear bandwagoning going on by ARS members around each other though, even in crystal clear cases where the behavior was erroneous. Which IMO should be treated by the closer no differently then a nonsensical, BATTLEGROUNDish AfD vote. Neither one is "canceling" anyone. --Adamant1 (talk) 04:56, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• I strongly support this, as the current discussion was nearly unreadable a full week ago, and has now progressed into total chaos. The parties here are not remotely neutral -- sure, there is a bloc of editors who tend to vote together on AfDs, who are all agreeing here about how the ARS is fine. But there is also a bloc of editors who tend to vote together on AfDs, who are all agreeing here about how the ARS is a cancer upon the project. This is not a situation that's going to improve by two armies of editors ganging up to defend themselves and balloon out AN/I to four megabytes calling the other groups "arseholes" for another (day? week? month? who knows). jp×g 10:05, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Your being massively hyperbolic. No one has called anyone an "arsehole" in this discussion. You and Lightburst are literally the only people who have used the term. It's complete nonsense to say that only people who can have an opinion about this are people who haven't participated in deletion discussions. Realistically, no one is going to know enough about this to have an educated, experienced opinion except for other users who have participated in deletion discussions. --Adamant1 (talk) 10:24, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Search for it. It has been used as an insult in a different section of this long ongoing discussion as an insult to members of the ARS, and has been used previously elsewhere as well. Dream Focus 10:26, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• The word that has been freely used as an insult here is "arse". There's an WP:ENGVAR issue with this as it's more common in British English than American. Per the OED it means, "A person's buttocks; the bottom, the backside. Also: the anus; the rectum. ... A stupid, unpleasant, or contemptible person; a fool." So, this is clearly a personal attack. The fact that this insult has been permitted to stand tells us all we need to know about WP:ANI and the quality of this discussion. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:41, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

I did search for it. JPxG claimed "groups" where being called "arseholes." Someone said "Project Arsehole" one time at the start of the thread and the same user said "Arse's" twice later. That's all I could find outside of the usage by JPxG and Lightburst in response to it. No one aside from the single user has said it though. So no "groups" are being called "arseholes" and it's not "freely" being used as Andrew is claiming. In the meantime how much hemming and hawing have you and other ARS members done about cherry picking? Yet you've all made this much hay out of a single comment made at the start of the discussion to try and discredit the whole thing and portray yourselves as the victims. --Adamant1 (talk) 10:43, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

You also have to search for just arse. Its just Roxy the Dog doing this here as well as in past AFDs such as [79] Dream Focus 10:58, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Hhmmm, yeah that instance didn't come up when I searched for it. Still though, it's only one user and it isn't even that much of an insult since your project literally sounds like arse when it's abbreviated. "arseholes" shouldn't be said either way though, it's just juvenile, but I can see where someone might spell it "arse" because that's how it sounds. --Adamant1 (talk) 11:12, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't think it's right to minimize this. Repeatedly calling ARS members "arseholes" is a level of incivility that does constitute disruptive behaviour. Luckily this is AN/I so we can hope that a sysop has spotted this and will provide the appropriate support and direction.—S Marshall T/C 12:24, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@Adamant1, S Marshall, and Dream Focus: I linked to the ARShole moniker in the thread about me. I hesitate to bring up other folks as they will be pinged over to show their open hostility. Lightburst (talk) 14:06, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps if you all weren't so completely transparent in your bloc behavior (especially repeated defenses of straightforward civility violations), people would take you more seriously when you whine about being attacked. Or, you know, you could do what I did and put together a clear, actionable complaint. --JBL (talk) 15:26, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - ArbCom is not a noticeboard for discussions. The originator of this subtopic probably means to request that the ArbCom open a full case. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:51, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Agree with requesting a full case. The volume of the evidence that has been entered is more appropriate to the quasi-judicial proceeding of the ArbCom than to a community decision. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:51, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: In case you were wondering: as of 11:55am central time, this thread is 52,404 words 388,321 characters. Contrast with one of my favorite novels: Of Mice and Men which only has 30,000 words. Lightburst (talk) 16:58, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Proposal #3: Topic ban or other restrictions for Andrew Davidson

While I am still not convinced we can solve much here, and ArbCom might be preferable, as I was asked to present the evidence I mentioned above, here it is, coupled with the proposal to a) topic ban Andrew Davidson from AfDs, dePRODs, and removing copyediting templates, or b) at least to require him to provide an analysis of all sources he brings to AfDs (discussing what makes them reliable and containing significant coverage), to provide a similar rationale for his deprods or removal of copyediting templates. This is because I believe that his votes are repeatedly low quality, based on WP:GOOGLEHITS, that he is often uncivil in his AfDs comments, that his repeated deprods, low quality votes, and abrasive behavior have been producing a battleground atmosphere in the deletion TA, and that he has been repeatedly, and for years, been asked to behave better and to follow best practices, requests he has disregarded over several years. PS. My preference is for b) rather than a) if it is judged workable by the community (while a) is simpler but b) might be more constructive).

Item one: Prior discussion of Andrew's behavior in context of deletion and civility

December 2017 User:Everymorning (now User:IntoThinAir) proposed a topic ban for Andrew from RfAs Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive295#Andrew_Davidson_and_RFAs:_time_for_a_topic_ban? While not directly related to deletion discussion and closed with no consensus, the closer also noted that “A common theme, however, is that people regard Andrew's votes on RfA as against consensus, petty and unlikely to gain traction, and he should consider changing tact” - this is relevant given the notes about tone and incivility are similar to many latter complaints regarding his deletion comments. Note that this was the second attempt to ban him from RfA (the prior one was from January 2017 filled by User:Samwalton9 and also closed without action Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive286#Andrew_Davidson_and_RfA_-_Topic_ban_proposal; and again the issues raised were related to civility and attitude). 18 June 2018 at AN User:Zxcvbnm complained about Andrew’s behavior at AfDs. Closed as no action. Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive299#Andrew_Davidson_disruptive_editing_in_AfD 5 November 2018 User:Softlavender proposed at ANI that Andrew should be required to provide rationales for his PRODs. This has been closed as no consensus. Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive995#Proposal:_Require_Andrew_Davidson_to_provide_a_rationale_with_each_de-PROD. Same day User:Roxy the dog proposed a topic ban and block for Andrew for his deprodding without a rationale. This has been closed as no consensus as well Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive995#TBAN_and_Block_Needed . September 2020 A general complaint about Andrew's "bad faith editing" by User:Hako9 was closed with no action due to no consensus but also a note that “Andrew is advised to take seriously the feedback (and in some cases warnings) offered by many, particularly around personal attacks, in the thread.” His behavior at AfD has been criticized there, for example by User:Reyk, see Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1047#Bad_faith_editing_by_User:Andrew_Davidson. talk page warnings: [80] a discussion leading to a topic ban suggestion on Andrew's talk page in 2018 User:Adamant1 warns Andrew that “I'd support a ban if it ever came to one. It's clear that Andrew is abusing the system and wasting everyone's time by serially removing PRODs from articles that just end up getting deleted at AfD. Then instead of doing simple things multiple people have asked him to do, like leaving a changeset comment” more requests/warning to be more civil on his talk page: a complaint by User:Deacon Vorbis [81], [82], December 2020 User:Peacemaker67 complains about Andrew's behavior (civility) in the context of AfDs, nothing "You seriously need to get a grip. Afds are not a personal attack on you" [83], February 2021 he was warned by Ritchie333 that calling others a “dick” is out of line and not very constructive; pnn August 14, 2020 User:Argento Surfer asks him to stop attacking the nominator “you should stop tossing around these bad faith criticisms of "abuse".”

Item two: Andrew's AfD stats

Andrew’s Del stats accessible at https://afdstats.toolforge.org/afdstats.py?name=Andrew%2BDavidson&max=500&startdate=&altname= are are around 50% (i.e. half of his votes match up with the community). At that level, they are arguably not distinguishable from random noise. A longitudinal analysis suggests his ratio is getting steadily worse each year; and dipped below 50% last year. In my view, an experienced editor should be "correct" more than half the time, anything below this suggests his actions are not aligned with the prevailing consensus. Note that https://sigma.toolforge.org/summary.py?name=Andrew+Davidson&search=DEPROD&server=enwiki&max=500&ns= will show articles Andrew dePRODed which were not deleted (many were not followed up with an AfD due to the nominator not being aware that they were deprodded; others were redirected, often without merging). Some of those were redirected. I am not aware of how to produce a count of articles Andrew deprodded that were subsequently deleted, but I believe that number is very high. What will follow next is the analysis of various problematic cases I am aware of.

Item three: Mass deprodding of low quality articles

Item three: Andrew is habitually doing mass deprodding as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Proposed deletion patrolling. I have no issue with this project, it’s a valuable initiative just like ARS, but in my experience (judging by edit summaries and seeing who actually deprods articles I prod), Andrew is responsible for 90% if not 99% of deprods coming from this project. I am not aware of any other editor who has been doing mass deproddings on such a time scale (several years), who is not willing to compromise in any single detail (such as adding justifications to their deprods), and who is also so aggressive and ABFing towards those who prod or AFD articles. Here is a sample (starting in November 2019) of articles he dePRODed with this generic rationale, ALL of which ended up deleted. Despite being pinged and asked to explain his views in the following AfDs, he did not participate in a single one; the AfDs subsequently ended up with a strong consensus to delete: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/MUX_(The_Hardy_Boys), Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/American_Teens_Against_Crime, Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/The_Assassins_(The_Hardy_Boys), Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Blue_Wizards, Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Book_of_G'Quan, Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dilgar_War, Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/EAS_Pollux, Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/EAS_Hyperion, Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/EAS_Alexander, Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Earth–Minbari_War, Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Interstellar_Alliance_(2nd_nomination), Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Emperor_Cartagia, Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Matthew_Gideon, Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Zack_Allan, Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Morgan_Clark... There were several more that were redirected or merged following his deprod. The above list is a good illustration of how Andrew forces the community to waste time discussing uncontroversial (and cleary not meeting our modern standards) articles at AfD. As far as I remember, he deprodded every single article about the B5 TV show I or others PRODed during the cleanip of articles related to that series in late 2019, did not participate in a single resulting AfD, and each and every AfD ended up with the article being deleted (a few were redirected). Andrew could have saved everyone’s time by redirecting them himself to Babylon 5 (and if he did so, more of the content would’ve survived in the redirect’s histories; by taking the hard inclusionist stance he wasted others time and got more of the content “hard” deleted than he would have if he tried to compromise). Least someone argues that this is stale stuff from a two years ago, here are similar cases of DePRODs from last and this year - deprods of articles who are often unreferenced, and end up being deleted/redirected with little or no objection: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Tamaran, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Redeemers (comics), Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Frank_and_Helen, Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Miraz's_Castle (He participated in those two AfDs. Note that his keep vote was the single keep among other 6-7), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tisroc, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/William Manealoff, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Frank Heineman, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Flying polyp, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Monsieur Stigmonus, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Queen Taramis, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wingmen of Thanagar, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wadesdah, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zeiss (comics) (his keep is again the sole dissenting vote), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sofia Mel, [84] (sample article he deprodded that got redirected shortly afterward by another user), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Prince Nathan, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Flying machine (The War of the Worlds), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Embankment machine (The War of the Worlds), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Handling machine (The War of the Worlds)... please note this is a sample, not an exhaustive list of such incidents - the full list would be several times longer. My aim is to show this is a long-standing pattern. Please note that even if he is pinged to elaborate on his dePROD in the AfD, very often he ignores such a request entirely.

Item four: repeated concerns about not providing PROD rationales

In addition to mass deprodding, those deprods themselves are, well, mass produced and thus poorly rationalized. He has been asked numerous times to provide prod rationale and use more informative edit summaries. He will either ignore such requests or reply that DEPROD doesn’t require doing so. Over the years, numerous editors have complained about this. See User_talk:Andrew_Davidson/deletion_discussions#Osterley_Television_Centre , User_talk:Andrew_Davidson/deletion_discussions#Andrew_de_Leslie_(d._c._1352) (by User:Domdeparis), User_talk:Andrew_Davidson/deletion_discussions#Pension_hotel (by User:PamD), [85] (by User:Hijiri88), User_talk:Andrew_Davidson/deletion_discussions#Jazz_in_Africa (by User:Vmavanti), User_talk:Andrew_Davidson/deletion_discussions#World_Beer_Cup, (by User:Sitush, User_talk:Andrew_Davidson/deletion_discussions#Parks (by User:Rusf10), User_talk:Andrew_Davidson/deletion_discussions#Galileo by User:Winged Blades of Godric), [86], [87],[88], [89] (by User:Magnolia677), [90] (by User:Brigade Piron), [91] (by User:David Fuchs), [92] (by User:CommanderWaterford), [93], [94] (by User:HTGS), [95] (by User:Tautomers), [96] (by User:Sputnik13), [97] (by User:Mztourist), [98] (by User:David notMD), [99] (by User:William Harris), [https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Andrew_Davidson&diff=860123649&oldid=860042869&diffmode=source ] (by User:JRPG), by User:AssociateAffiliate [100] and User:Blue Square Thing [101], by User:DoubleGrazing [102] (note Andrew just deleted the post, this is quite common way he "replies" to such concerns, see also [103] and note the edit summary to User:AlexMullane).... Recently User:Calistemon and User:JarrahTree faced similar problem, see [104] (resulting AfD: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Monash_coal_mine - resulted in deletion at AfD, like many of the rest). That's... quite a lot, isn't it? I am sure there are more than just these, I might have missed a few. I'll highlight [105], where Andrew mocks a user who says they are experiencing significant stress and note that at User_talk:Andrew_Davidson/deletion_discussions#List_of_megaprojects_in_India User:Hijiri88 warned Andrew that “You should probably also bear in mind that while there is no broad community consensus that editors in general are required to provide a reason for deprodding, there was a pretty strong consensus here that you specifically should provide a reason when you deprod, or potentially face sanctions”.

Item five: a sample of AfD votes with no or bad rationale, including personal attacks

Some of them are jokes, rants, condescending personal attacks, etc. [106], [107], insinuation of racism in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of shopping malls in Angola (see discussion there, also User:Reyk noted this happened before), [108], . Referring to Andrew's "vote" in this AfD, User:Darkknight2149 called it " laughable and borders on obfuscation". Here another editor calls him out for being too sarcastic. This is not new behavior, in 2017 User:Chris troutman asked Andrew “Do you ever make a policy-based argument at AfD?”]. Not much has changed since, certainly not for the better. After nominators note there are no good sources, Andrew often calls their claims false, even if his sources are found wanting and don't sway the discussion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bedtime toy, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Byakhee, [109], He repeatedly called Prods or AfDs disruptive or otherwise problematic, often in a disparaging way. Another term he has used that has been criticized is “cookie-cutter nominations”. This has been criticized here and here [110] by User:Darkknight2149 votes where his sources seem google-hity, others have pointed out they are irrelevant to the discussion, likely showing Andrew did not read them, just googled something with the discussed word in title/body, and threws it into the discussion with a variation of "keep, there are sources": Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Skull Cave, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fomalhaut in fiction, etc. Here [111] User:TTN concludes that Andrew "didn't even look at the source before posting it". Similar case here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Flycatcher (comics). User:Zxcvbnm described Andrew's participation in another AfD as "trolling" In this AfD in his keep vote he calls the nomination a “drive-by”, doesn’t present any policy-based argument. User:Sandstein closed this AfD noting that [112] “I must discount all "keep" opinions because they fail to address the suggested reason for deletion (lack of coverage in reliable sources), or violate WP:NPA/WP:AGF, or both.” A few days later, on July 14 2021, User:S Marshall commented during a deletion review which was closed by Sandstein on Andrew’s behavior: “It's not OK to charge around AfD punching nominators on the nose, and I view the behaviour in that debate as totally outside Wikipedia's conduct standards. Andrew Dingley and AlgaeGraphix's contributions both demonstrate their need for some support and direction from a member of our administrative corps.” .[113].(Note: I believe S Marshal meant Andrew Davidson, not Dingley; I'll correct this sentence if I was wrong). Andrew’s response? [114] “Sandstein's supervotes are getting beyond a joke. "I must discount all "keep" opinions" is quite typical of his style which fails to observe WP:DGFA's guidance to "respect the judgment and feelings of Wikipedia participants."” Well, I believe that it would be nice if Andrew would start to respect the judgement and feelings of Wikipedia participants he so vocally criticizes in many deletion discussions.

Item six: removal of copyediting template

Lastly, a new (I think) and worrying development this year has been Andrew's removal of copyediting templates. Now, not only is he opposed to deletion of articles, but he is also opposed to tagging the as in need of fixing. February 9, 2021 he was asked by me not to remove cleanup templates (notability), endorsed by another editor, User:David Fuchs who additionally also asked him to use informative PROD summaries. Andrew never replied to either of us, removing the section without archiving it [115] Following this, he kept removes notability templates (as well as occasionally others, such as “more citations needed”, “dictionary definition” or “original research”) from articles that have no clear claim to notability with the WP:TAGBOMB edit summary, despite some of those articles not having many tags (just a single one). Here is a sample series of deprods also removing notability and other cleanup tags from July 2010, 2021: [116], [117], [118], [119], [120], [121], [122], [123]... I have asked him not to so again in July 2021 [124] to which he replied aggressively, changing my neutral section heading to “barking” [125] and attacking me with comments directed at who knows whom, like “Piotrus' edits often seem contentious”. And he kept on removing templates with the same rationale [126], [127], [128], [129], [130], [131], [132]...

I rest my case. I believe the links above show that this is a long-standing pattern of problematic behavior - from disruption to personal attacks and battleground attitude - that many editors have complained about. Can the community do something, or do we need ArbCom to step in? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:23, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Support (A) Saying that Andrew D. is intentionally disruptive is an understatement. It's hard to estimate the countless hours of wasted time people have spent having to nominate articles that normally would have remained PROD for deletion, only for them to later be deleted regardless. Not to mention the time spent refuting arguments that, on their face, seem like valid ones, but on closer inspection are clearly meritless with bait and switch sources. Just because he technically does not break the rules doesn't mean it is not having a massive chilling effect. There's a term for that, gaming the system._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 11:46, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose There are times when someone goes around rapidly proding things, he goes about deprodding all of them, some end up as valid articles that are kept, others deleted. The first thing listed at [133] right now is [134] A user without many edits prodded it and from the looks of it, it is a valid article, so deprodding was valid. Prods are meant for deletions that had no one likely to disagree. They are unfortunately misused at times. Dream Focus 11:53, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

  That's whataboutism, I am afraid - like saying "it's ok when cops shoot civilians, after all, just yesterday I saw a news piece about this cop shooting a criminal and saving some innocent person" (read: article). Nobody is denying Andrew does some good, but he also does a lot of collaterall damage at the same time. Damage that he could easily prevent by being civil, assuming good faith, and using informative deprod edit summaries/talk page comments, and by providing source analysis instead of just linking google hits results in AfDs. Some of his deprods/votes are fine, but way too many are not, and I think the amoung of those problematic comments/votes/deprods is too high to ignore. It's the case of doing more harm than good, IMHO, a net negative. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:17, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

  • Dream Focus has been a member of WP:Article Rescue Squadron since 2009. Levivich 15:28, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support 30-day topic ban from both AfD and de-prodding on grounds of many examples of gross incivility. Unlike Lightburst, I feel that this user's habitual unpleasantness does rise to the level of disruptive behaviour.—S Marshall T/C 12:07, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
  • You want to give someone who has been active (and consistently problematic) at AfD for well over a decade, with countless warnings and several blocks.... a 30 day tban? What exactly would that accomplish? — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:18, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Support some topic ban: Since I was tagged here, I will give my observations. I noticed a pattern with Andrew Davidson in the back half of 2020. Andrew has a constant track record of going into AfDs with a "protect the article at all cost" mentality and will often stretch the meanings of certain policies and criteria (or evoke them even in situations where they obviously don't apply) to justify his Keep votes. I have never seen him vote Delete on anything and this sort of thing has happened persistently over a long period of time. This behaviour has extended into obfuscation, incivility, and general attempts to mislead. I attempted to reach Andrew on his talk page and elsewhere back in August 2020 politely asking him to stop, but all he did was say "I don't know what you are talking about" and then resumed what he was already doing. I haven't spoken to him in quite a while, but the concerns raised by Piotrus are not imaginary. Darkknight2149 12:26, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• A recent example of my !voting Delete has already been provided – see List of controversial deaths in the military. That was not four years ago; it was just a few weeks ago. This demonstrates both that I'm expressing my own honest assessment of topics and that I'm not blindly following an ARS party-line. See also confirmation bias. Andrew🐉(talk) 13:05, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

  Do you legitimately think that voting delete just 1.4% of the time indicates that you are "not blindly following an ARS party-line"? Does your "honest assessment of topics" truly result in notability nearly 90% of the time? eviolite (talk) 16:41, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Again, this is an indiscriminate ragbag of issues, most of which are unrelated to the supposed issue of the ARS and canvassing. The idea seems to be that if you keep slinging enough mud then eventually something will stick. Anyway, let's start at the top with the first points. There's a misunderstanding of WP:GOOGLEHITS which I have already explained above. That essay doesn't mean that editors should not use Google to find and list sources; editors are explicitly expected to do this.

And then the first detailed item is a complaint about RfA from 2017. That's over four years ago and so is very stale. But notice that I haven't opposed anyone at RfA for years now because I decided that this was a mug's game as people just didn't listen. So, having driven off opposers who did detailed research like me, the result is that you get RfAs like the recent one for Eostrix in which you get huge numbers of supports and only one oppose until it is realised that closer inspection is required and RfA can't be trusted to get this right.

But even though opposition has been silenced, people still complain that RfA is toxic and so we have another round of reform. I have commented in that and my suggestions are being listened to — even Piotrus agreed with them.

But talking about RfA is a huge tangent from the OP's original issue and so quite off topic. This is what happens when you leave discussions open for too long — you get thread drift and a free-for-all.

Andrew🐉(talk) 12:38, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Andrew Davidson has been a member of WP:Article Rescue Squadron since 2008, and is the subject of this TBAN proposal. Levivich 15:28, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@Andrew Davidson: It has already been stated clearly by Beeblebrox and the rest of the Arbitration Committee that the discovery that Eostrix was a sockpuppet of IceWhiz was only obtainable by off-wiki evidence, and it was also clarified that no fault should be found on the nominators HJ Mitchell and Girth Summit whatsoever. So either you had a lot of convincing off-wiki evidence to prove this case to Arbcom, in which case you should have worked with Arbcom to get a ban invoked before the RfA even started, or (more likely in my opinion) you are casting unnecessary aspersions and antagonising people. I haven't decided how to vote in this sanction yet, but if you continue to make antagonising comments like these that annoy people, you're likely to find the ban proposal will reach consensus. Now please - knock it off. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:55, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Support - The only one of these I'd support. I always find it painful to support sanctions on long-term good-faith contributors. I think Andrew has done a lot for Wikipedia, but, unfortunately, I've also long been under the impression that he's a net negative at AfD. Andrew is likely to attack the nominator, use straw men and other counter-productive rhetorical devices, ignore or mischaracterize arguments, argue based on low-quality sources or just links to google, references sources that are either knowingly poor or that he hasn't actually read, an uncommon example of someone who has actually used ARS as a keep club (e.g. with jokes rather than a neutral explanation of why it merits rescuing as per ARS's own guidelines), has the worst afdstats I've seen from a long-time contributors, and has had problems with deletion going back more than a decade (prior to Piotrus's links, too, under Andrew's other account, Colonel Warden). And to be clear, my support is completely unrelated to deprodding, which I don't particularly care about. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 13:15, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Rhododendrites doesn't give any examples, so I looked for one. The most recent case where we commented together seems to be Mac Ross – one of the Tuskegee Airmen that have been the main bone of contention lately. In that case, I removed the PROD from the article. If this had not been done, it would have been deleted without discussion. I then commented briefly at the AfD, citing both a source and policy. And I improved the article by adding an image – it did not previously have one. So, I was working hard in several ways to save a topic which seemed to have good promise. In that case, Rhododendrites !voted Keep like me so I'm not quite understanding why they see me as such a villain. Are they going to take over such duties if I am banned? Or are they content to see such topics deleted without discussion? Andrew🐉(talk) 13:44, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Indeed Colonel, the fact ARS legends are getting attacked by those we've often colledgially worked shoulder to shoulder with is what makes this such a distressing thread. FeydHuxtable (talk) 13:50, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• I'm starting work at the moment (sorry, in hindsight I should've waited to post until I could respond/update accordingly), but will return to this this evening with examples and a follow-up. If you would prefer (and not anyone else), you have my permission to remove my comment above (and these replies), which I will restore later when I have more time to respond/add later. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:03, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose I agree with the OP on one point – the Colonel can be a little abrasive, and makes more point scoring type votes than is necessary. It would be good if he could make an effort to be more respectful of those with different opinions at AfD. Overall though, my view is that the Colonels contribution to AfD & prod patrol is a huge net positive; he's saved countless valuable articles from deletion, and his scholarship often elevates the debate. To address the “low quality, based on WP:GOOGLEHITS” , I can see why it might appear that the Colonel relies on professor Google , he speaks with authority on such a wide range of topics. Those of us who have had the privilege of meeting the Colonel in RL know differently – he can talk knowledgeably and spontaneously about all sorts of things, one of the rare few who warrant being called a walking encyclopaedia. And often his arguments are based on extensive printed sources from his private library, not google. I remember the first time I met him in RL at a meetup with Sue Gardener back in 2010. At the time, Deletionists were targeting London bus routes – the Colonel brought a stack of about a dozen books to the meeting, just to show the extensive coverage that London bus routes actually receive in reliable sources.
  This whole thread is starting to take on witchhunt qualities, it's starting to feel like parts of the community won't be happy until there is blood on the carpet. Even broad minded editors long respected by the ARS, such as good professor Piotr, Rhododendrites & S Marshall are pitching in. Please someone close this nightmare. FeydHuxtable (talk) 13:50, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Even broad minded editors long respected by the ARS ... are pitching in or maybe they have a legitimate concern that remains unaddressed. Levivich 14:16, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
  • It would be good if he could make an effort to be more respectful of those with different opinions at AfD. I think it is really disappointing that you (and the other like-minded but better-behaved editors) haven't taken the time to reach out quietly to your poorly-behaved colleagues and encouraged them to behave better; instead, you have abetted and promoted the problematic behavior that is the reason we are here, as you are doing above. Removing a small number of chronic caustic contributors at AfD is going to have a large positive impact on the environment there. --JBL (talk) 15:22, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

    Indeed. This is the "end justifies the means" mentality that leads to the building of groups, including voting blocks. As I said many times, the goal of ARS is noble, but some of its members have gone too far, turning AfDs into battlegrounds, with the logic that if they attack the "evil deletionists" and make them leave the project ("your kind is not welcom here!"), they'll "save" the project. Sacrifice a bit of civility in order to prevent the deletion of useful articles - I am sorry, but this is not the right way to build the project. I don't even mind the existence of the ARS voting block, and their coordination and such - as long as the end result is a constructive, polite debate. But when instead the result is a development of civility-violating behavior (understandable, after years of hard work and slow burning out and radicalization) and defending it because the editor is "on the right side" of the "inclusionists vs deletionist" debate, then this is the AN(I)/ArbCom problem to deal with :( _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:17, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

    @JayBeeEll, It's not correct to assume such quiet words have not been had. I created WP:NWZ back in 2009. In 2011, I had a long off wiki chat with the Colonel about a Deletionist we were frequently tangling with at the time (ScottyWong) , who I argued deserved our respect. The Colonel even agreed. In later discussions concerning other editors he did not - but then the Colonel is a much better scholar than myself, so it's understandable he sometimes sticks to his guns. Here's an example from just over a year back where I partly agreed with Reyk on the Colonel's AfD conduct, even suggesting he might benefit from the occasional AfD break – and that was on a thread where the Colonel was enjoying much higher support than here. Squad members and other inclusionists are always having quiet words with each other, there would be hundreds of diffs if I had time for some digging. I recall benefiting several times from good advice from Dream, when I made a vote that wasn't well grounded in policy. That said, while I agree the Colonel's conduct isn't beyond improvement, I don't agree it's majorly problematic. It's a valid perspective to see putting an article up for deletion without following WP:Before as inherently aggressive. Criticising the nom can be a good thing, even if the Colonel probably does so too frequently. On balance, I don't even agree with the assumption I'm better behaved that the Colonel - more like he's someone for me to look up to. If not for my flaw of being excessively adverse to online conflict, I'd be involved in more AfDs, even sometimes making warranted criticism of hasty nominations. Then the Colonel might not feel obliged to shoulder so much of the burden himself. Now these assumptions have been clarified, perhaps you'll consider amending your vote? FeydHuxtable (talk) 17:06, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

  • FeydHuxtable has been a member of WP:Article Rescue Squadron since 2009. Levivich 15:28, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose There is no requirement to provide a rationale for PROD removal. They're quick to add and quick to remove, that's the point. I'm uncomfortable with sanctions based on an editor's AfD stats or PROD removals because these are all within our guidelines, and editors should feel no obligation to follow the trend and likewise shouldn't feel scared to post a keep if others are voting delete or vice-versa. A ban for these reasons would send out the wrong message to other users. NemesisAT (talk) 14:04, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
  • NemesisAT is not listed at WP:Article Rescue Squadron/Members, but in their past 200 AFDs in the last four months, they've !voted "keep" 95.9% of the time [135], and has voted with ARS, for example at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Willie H. Fuller, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Big John (dinosaur), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jones (third baseman), Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of stock characters in military fiction, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/George L. Knox II. Levivich 15:28, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

    Why is this relevant? Ironically, I didn't realise the ARS existed until I saw someone complaining about them on an AfD. I usually avoid voting when articles are likely to be deleted and focus my time on those that could be kept. NemesisAT (talk) 16:39, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

    Same reason {{subst:canvassed}} exists; provides info for the closer. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:35, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

    For the sake of completeness then, Levivich votes delete/merge/redirect ~78% of the time and the OP Piotrus votes delete/merge/redirect ~90% of the time. NemesisAT (talk) 17:40, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Support (a) (that Andrew Davidson be t-banned from AfDs) on grounds of incivility. The evidence presented in items 1 and 5 shows that Andrew has a longstanding behavioral problem that contributes to the poisonous atmosphere at AfD. I think it is unfortunate that the nomination mixes this up with questions of the quality of Andrew's contributions to AfD; Andrew should be topic-banned because they treat AfD as a battleground, routinely making personalized attacks on other AfD contributors, despite many warnings (as documented above). As applied to AfDs, I do not think (b) is workable or that it would address the problem; this comment should not be taken as either support or opposition on the question of PRODs. --JBL (talk) 15:17, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose current policy on prod removal is that "You are encouraged, but not required" to explain why you are removing a prod. I can see a good case for changing that policy, at least for experienced editors. Filing an RFC and calling for a change to that policy is a legitimate way to change policy. Seeking to change policy by attacking those that follow a policy is a form of harassment and should be treated as such. ϢereSpielChequers 15:24, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

  The proposal (regrettably in my view) mixes together several different issues and several different remedies. This response relates to one area only (PRODs). (Several other commenters above have explicitly separated their comments about AfDs and civility concerns from their comments about PRODs.) --JBL (talk) 15:34, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Item seven: Extension of item one, failure to AFG about subsequent nominations
Andrew loves to complain about users supposedly "disruptively" renominating articles subsequent times, even if in some cases over a decade later. This is usually in poor faith and entirely unconstructive.

• Support I have added item seven. Besides his rote copy-paste of Google Books titles that do not necessarily mention the topic it hand, much less provide significant coverage, Andrew is regularly dismissive of the very concept of deletion, and the fact that AFD is forum for discussion, often shutting things down with a rude "My !vote stands", as if anyone thought they could change his vote in the first place. It's fine for someone to reply to a !vote for others to see without you attacking the fact they've addressed your points.

Further bad faith comments include this attack on a user rarely starting articles from scratch, this complaint that an editor made a nomination on behalf of another, calling it "vexatious" for having been discussed a decade earlier, this complaint calling a valid AFD "drive-by", and this attack where he literally calls me "a dog returning to his vomit" in one his useless trite quotations, this time to a Bible verse ("See also Proverbs 26:11.") Reywas92^Talk 15:27, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Adding that like Reyk below, while I have had strong disagreements with Lightburst and 13, they do not leave such a bitter taste in this process and do not reject the process itself as Andrew does. "Speedy keep" is a common refrain when a nominator would be fine with a merge or redirect and total deletion is not requested, even when he states he may agree with one of those ATD options; this obstruction of the discussion is not helpful when outside input is sought and those are valid options at AFD. His gish gallop of book titles that happen to include some of the same words as the article title without showing how they'd improve the article or show notability (or the need for a stand-alone article sometimes) – and his often sarcastic adages – are rarely useful to "rescuing" articles or promoting good discussion. With respect to PROD, one particularly reflexive and unhelpful one was this when the tag said the topic already existed at another page. Even if a merge/redirect was better, the rationale was left ignored. At least he seems to have gotten over the phase of spouting "per WP:ATD, WP:NOTCLEANUP, WP:NOTPAPER, and WP:PRESERVE" as if they were blanket bans on the concept of deletion. Reywas92^Talk 16:35, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Support indef topic ban because Andrew is probably the most blatant canvasser in the ARS with his dumb no-context “wink wink nudge nudge vote keep” jokes in place of information. A topic ban is a comparative slap on the wrist next to more serious sanctions (like total banning) but has more of a tangible effect on solving the issues at hand than just a warning (which has already been tried). He’s also persistently uncivil and a look at his stats suggests he’s a blind partyline voter. Dronebogus (talk) 15:29, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support indef topic ban from deletion related issues and maintenance tags, broadly construed. It's clear that the Colonel is not capable of working collegially in these areas. The fundamental issue is that he does not care if mainspace articles are of awful quality, contain inaccuracies, contain irrelevant or falsified sourcing, copyvios, spam, or whatever else gunk you can think of- provided it's kept and that those advocating cleanup or deletion are called names and left frustrated. He's been white-anting the encyclopedia for over a decade and people just don't want to see it. Piotrus has done a good job of presenting evidence; I'll point out a few extra diffs and links to add to the pile:
  • The mendacious approach to sourcing is by far the biggest problem. As pointed out by Rhododendrites the Colonel often presents lacklustre "sources" that don't support the claim and which he may not have even read. Piotrus has linked to a few discussions already; I'd just like to show that not only would the Colonel like to load the encyclopedia up with inaccuracies he'd also like to censor people from pointing inaccuracies out. See for instance this AfD where a dumps a bunch of irrelevant sources into the discussion and then claims @Ravenswing: isn't allowed to scrutinise them because, the Colonel's opinion, he hasn't sufficiently abased himself at the holy altar of WP:BEFORE (and the Colonel will always claim that). An earlier example of attempted censorship is this Mfd. Basically, a book previously used as a source for numerous Wikipedia articles was found to be riddled with errors and utter gibberish and the user page in question catalogues the errors and set out why that book shouldn't be used as a source. Well, pointing out inaccuracies in WP content is extremely felonious especially if it leads to articles being deleted, so this user space page had to be quashed using the most tortured interpretations of WP:NPA and WP:OR I've ever seen. Luckily nobody was deceived but I think it shows the mindset pretty clearly.
  • Maintenance tags do not have an expiration date; they do not go "stale". They expire when the problem they alert the community to has been resolved, not before. Typically the maintenance tags he removes are neither "vague" nor "stale". A recent, typical, example is this, where a BLP-sources tag was deleted. It was obvious at a glance that the article contained at least three contentious and unsourced statements regarding a living person so there's nothing vague about it. Eventually the issues were mostly dealt with by removing or properly sourcing that stuff and that is when you remove the tags- not because you find them unsightly or because you want to undermine and sabotage the maintenance tag system. As for "stale", if a previous AFD in 2009 is cause to yawn "NOTAGAIN" today I don't see how 2019 can be considered stale.
  • As for the serial deprodding, "I'm allowed to do this" stops being an effective justification when the volume and repetition of it is getting disruptive, you're obviously just trying to be obnoxious, and people have legitimate questions about your motivations. We passed that point long ago.
  • Others have mentioned the personal attacks, including Piotrus and Reywas separately noting that he's called them dogs. I've noted his love of falsely calling people racists before yet has no qualms about making actually racist remarks himself.
  • I haven't !voted on Lightburst or 13's discussions and I'm not going to. There may be concerns about hurling insults and presenting sources of dubious provenance at AfD, but if so it's clear who they're trying to emulate. Removing the Colonel from XfD broadly construed would only reduce the amount of acrimony there, and the amount of shite in the mainspace. Reyk _YO! 16:05, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support topic ban. This editor is disruptive to the PROD and AfD processes, blindly voting keep and mass contesting PRODs without any good reason. Numerous examples are included above. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 16:11, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support topic ban from all the mentioned problem areas. Leaving aside any questions of ARS canvassing and the like, Davidson is a net negative to the project in this realm—removing valid cleanup templates without any apparent significant thought or cogent argumentation, consistently poor conduct at AfD, and this has been an issue going back years and years and nothing has modified their behavior. Darkknight2149's summation of the behavior as "protect the article at all costs" is accurate, and where I think AD's behavior is clearly tendentious. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 16:19, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support A per Rhododendrites description. B isn't easily enforceable. The lashing out at AfDs, superficial refbombing, etc. are almost the norm from Andrew nowadays, and I'm surprised this wasn't the first topic ban to be proposed. I do think this needs to be both an AfD and PROD ban to truly get them to step away from the behavior issues.Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Skull_Cave is one that caught my eye awhile back. Right away, Andrew just launches into attacks like More abuse of our deletion processes directed toward nominators followed by an alphabet soup of wikilinks and misuse of sources called out by Argento Surfer here.

Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1047#Bad_faith_editing_by_User:Andrew_Davidson Closed as no conensus, but NinjaRobotPirate warned them if you post more bad faith, passive-aggressive speculation about the motives of editors, I will block you for violations of WP:CIVIL. Insinuating that someone is racist or shilling is unacceptable. and endorsed by other admins like Cullen328, BD2412 , and RickinBaltimore. This isn't a new/recent issue, and Andrew has had plenty of time to change their behavior despite multiple admin and regular editor warnings.

These AfDs below are all from mostly just looking in their AfDs through this past summer. Besides the incivility others have posted evidence on, just a lot of time-wasting, etc:

Sniping, lashing out, or straight up personal attacks at AfDs. Piotrus seems to be a common target

It's the nomination which is indiscriminate as there's no clear reason for its existence[136] Another vexatious repeat nomination. . . (result was delete)[137] The usual cut/paste, drive-by nomination. . .[138] How many fingers am I holding up? That's the number of times that this page has been dragged here to Room 101 for a Two Minutes Hate before it is dropped down the memory hole.[139] Yet another IPC drive-by which hasn't observed WP:BEFORE. Sources are easy to find. . . article deleted[140] sniping about WP:TNT, The references to TNT are in poor taste here as TNT is a toxic explosive which was used to kill many people during WW2[141]

Reference hand-waving, wasting the communities time on WP:SIGCOV, often uses superficial "appears in numerous references" comment

Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Sidney_P._Brooks Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Henry_B._Perry Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Mr._Haney Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Gevrik Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Jim_Taggart The rest is then a matter of ordinary editing not deletion per WP:ATD. responded to by The term is used exactly one time in that source, we're nowhere near passing WP:GNG.--Rusf10 (talk) 14:47, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[142] Keep A respectable scientific association. Finding sources is just a matter of looking – see WP:BEFORE and WP:NOEFFORT. responded to by Then what exactly are these sources that are supposedly so easy to find? Sandstein 12:32, 21 April 2021 (UTC) result was delete[143]

Then there's Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_songs_about_California_(2nd_nomination). This has already been discussed here and the result was keep. This fresh nomination is not policy-based and clearly doesn't pass WP:BEFORE. Per WP:DELAFD. . . responded to with The last nomination was 9 years ago. You are acting like it was two weeks ago. Consensus can change, and surviving an AfD doesn't grant an article lifetime immunity if the issues persist. --Bongwarrior (talk) 19:13, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

This is all hallmark WP:TENDENTIOUS behavior where in isolation no one is going to bother reporting or sanctioning, but the persistent behavior is apparent when you total up diffs. KoA (talk) 16:32, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Support a (presumably indefinite?) topic ban for AD per previous discussions on their WP:POINTy WP:BLUDGEONING of AFDs, rarely via constructive criticism but containing PAs of varying degrees, often but not exclusively based on their perceived lack of WP:BEFORE, something which they rarely adhere to in their presentation of 'sources' with the same exacting expectations as they require of others. ——Serial 16:40, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support a topic-ban from AFD's, as per more evidence above than should be repeated. I will also cite:

  Abuse of Speedy Keep in saying that the nominator has not offered a policy-based reason to delete, when Speedy Keep 1 is the failure to offer a reason to delete. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:47, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)Support topic ban per the evident disruptive blind-!voting of repeat AfDs brought up by Reywas92's item 7 and KoA above. The opposes above only cover the PROD concern (which personally I do not have an opinion on) or that the given items do not relate to canvassing and ARS (which is nonsense as this is a proposal against Andrew alone and not ARS in general). Andrew's above comment that he is "not blindly following an ARS party-line" is also rather telling as in fact he has had voted keep or SK nearly 90% of the time - this certainly feels like a repeat of what Darkknight2149 mentioned: that all he did was say "I don't know what you are talking about" and then resumed what he was already doing when asked to stop. eviolite (talk) 16:52, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support topic ban I supported something similar in September 2020 and the disruptive behavior has continued. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 17:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support (b) or (a) at least to require him to provide an analysis of all sources he brings to AfDs. This is the bare minimum we can ask for guys. If you provide an offline source then you're expected to have read it, to prove that notability is evidenced by those sources. All he does is blindly throw a dart expecting to hit the spot. It takes nothing from him to spam those long list of offline sources in all afds, and he knows those sources can't be dismissed without others having actually read them. Once a source is pointed out to him as having little to no association with the subject in question, he pivots to other sources or other arguments. This is a reliance on unfalsifiability. This is a massive drain on others though, when this action is repeatedly abused. Also, prima facie, based on his comments on other editors, I feel, any other person would have long been banned for personal attacks. An afd t-ban would solve the purpose by actually having him rescue articles rather than just saving them from deletion by hook or by crook. You can't say that all abortions must be stopped, but also then abandon the child once it is born. Why not save articles worth saving and let us abort the shitty ones. - hako9 (talk) 17:23, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Claudia Webbe & Socialist Campaign Group & User:Alssa1

There are several claims made about membership of the Socialist Campaign Group, there is no known reliable source for membership, none has been provided only the self-nomination of members. Given the lack of proper citation, I have qualified some of the claims only to have these reverted with no improved citation.Kitchen Knife (talk) 22:02, 25 October 2021 (UTC) The User who keeps reinstating these uncited claims is User:Alssa1 and continues to reinstate despite lack of valid citation and incorrectly cites Wikiepdia policy to justify their bullying. --Kitchen Knife (talk) 22:06, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I see we've both made an ANI for each other. I do find it odd that you're accusing me of "bullying" you. Alssa1 (talk) 22:34, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Potential WP:BOOMERANG candidate. Check Talk:Claudia_Webbe#Socialist Campaign Group for context. I did not notice any conduct violations on the part of Alssa1 except for three reverts in a row on the Claudia Webbe page.

Bad faith by Kitchen Knife: [144]

Alssa1 reminds Kitchen Knife on talk page of BRD and AGF, Kitchen Knife reverts calling Alssa1 a "bully": [145]

Kitchen Knife "talk page banning": [146]

MarshallKe (talk) 22:49, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Resinsating unsourced claims is a violation of Wikipedia standards. Doing so on the bio of a Living person is also a no no. They were asked multiple times to cite a reliable source and did not do so, if they had cited a reliable source then it could stay but they did not. This is fundamental to Wikipedia Wikipedia:Reliable sources. There was a discussion going on elsewhere there was no need for him to come onto my talk page. I did not call his reverts bullying I called his preemptive citing of Wikipedia rules and claims that not behaving he wanted could lead to banning. The claims he reinstated were and are unsubstantiated. --Kitchen Knife (talk) 23:06, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

As best I can tell, you are the one making unsourced statements. I gave you the benefit of the doubt by stating that on the article talk page instead of here, but now that you've decided to bring that here and misrepresent your sourcing disagreement with Alssa1, here we are. You were having a sourcing disagreement, which is a natural part of Wikipedia and it doesn't belong on this page. MarshallKe (talk) 23:25, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm not misrepresenting my position at all, you are the one doing that. What evidence there is, which is the full title of the group, is that the group is reserved for Labour MPs, she is no longer a Labour MP there going by the one thing the group have published about membership criteria it is unclear if she remains a member. Alssa1 has also claimed the someone who is no longer an MP is also a member. While it would not be the first time a groups name has not reflected the membership of a group, the change in status of the subject is well known and verified. I do not think that OR covers this as effectly it is starting what is already known that the MPs status has changed and this makes her status within Labour affiliated groups at best ambiguous.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 23:39, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

@Kitchen Knife: since you posted the above before I responded below I'm not sure if you're still confused but in case you are, do note as I said below that you're mistaken. What you're describing classic WP:Synthesis. If you're going to continue to edit BLPs then please better familiarise yourself with our OR policy rather than just "thinking" what it covers. If you believe information is outdated for some reason, it is up to you to find reliable sources which provide this new information. You cannot decide based on your own analysis what the situation is like now and update the article. At best, if you cannot find sources, perhaps the outdated but sourced information could be removed. But this is rarely the solution so needs to be done with care. If you cannot find sources perhaps it's because no one has noticed, perhaps it's because no one really cares about the change or perhaps it's because your OR is wrong. If it's the case no one cares, then generally we don't either. Depending on the specifics it's often perfectly possible to provide info on the older situation without making it sound like the situation must be still the same or mentioning some change which may be true but no one thinks matters so no one has mentioned. If your OR is wrong and so you're providing misleading information that's one reason OR is so harmful. As I said below, it's very difficult for you to make the claim the sources are simply outdated anyway since we have a source from after her suspension still mentioning her membership. It's in the early days I don't know what the situation is like now, again ultimately we need sources not editor's speculations. P.S. To be clear, my comment is direct exclusively at what you did in the Claudia Webbe article. How to handle the list is more complicated and not something I want to touch on. Nil Einne (talk) 19:03, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

User:Kitchen Knife

Kitchen Knife (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Kitchen Knife and I are having a discussion about the the MP Claudia Webbe and her affiliation to the Socialist Campaign Group (referred to as SCG from now on); particularly given her suspension from the Labour party. Kitchen Knife appears convinced that membership of the SCG is dependent entirely upon membership of the Labour Party, he is yet to provide a source that demonstrates this claim.

To summarise the situation.

This discussion has taken more or less civilly on the talkpage. However today the discussion took a very different turn. It began with this edit which though I can accept 'robust language' without difficulty, I do on reflection find it somewhat of a precursor to later interactions. I responded to that particular edit with: this edit. In the next edit I added some sources that would at least demonstrate that she is widely reported to be a member of the SCG despite her suspension.

After a continuing to disagree robustly, Kitchen Knife makes this edit which I think is in breach of WP:AGF.

He then makes an edit which I then revert and leave a message on his page highlighting the need to build consensus, think about WP:BRD and engage in good faith. I also make a similar remark on the article talkpage.

He then reverts my message on his talkpage and calls me "a bully", a confusing statement and also in breach of WP:AGF.

He also leaves a message on my talkpage titled "DO not comment on my page again" and calling "very rude and pompous".

He reinstates his edit again (with a bit of WP:AGF), which I then revert and leave a disruptive editing notice on his page. Which he then reverts.

Now I'm sure neither side of our disagreement has behaved perfectly, but I do find the way he's behaved to be somewhat unnecessary. Alssa1 (talk) 22:31, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

EDIT, in addition to the above there seems to a bit of pattern with his behaviour when challenged; as you can see from his archive. When challenged he does seem to go on the full-attack mode for some reason. Despite the archived instance being from almost 10 years ago, I do think it's relevant given his recent behaviour. Alssa1 (talk) 22:37, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

EDIT2, further to my previous comment, the pattern is reflected again here on relatively recent disagreement Kitchen Knife had with Mark83. It's the same thing, Kitchen Knife has an editing dispute with someone and as a result he engages in abusive behaviour (calling people "pompous" among other things), and then engaging in talk page banning. What is the best method of dealing with someone who has a long pattern of unpleasant behaviour of this nature? Alssa1 (talk) 15:49, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Alssa1 had already been reported by myself, for reinstment of unsupported claims. THis is an example of this user malicous nature.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 22:58, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

The fact that you reported someone first doesn't automatically mean you're right and doesn't serve as an example of this user malicous nature.. Even on ANI, you should remain CIVIL and avoid casting ASPERSIONS. AlexEng^(TALK) 23:15, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

I never claimed it did make me right but well done on making stuff up.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 19:36, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

To summarise the situation accurately this user has been asked multiple times to provide citations that back up the entries on the Claudia Webbe Page as no citation was forthcoming that met the Wikipedia standard the claims were qualified to indicate they were claims made by the subject. The membership list used is that of a Twitter group and the full title of the group would exclude non-members. Wikipedia:Verifiability/Removal of Uncited Material.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 23:11, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Also my edit said " she is a member of the Socialist Campaign Group of Labour MPs, it is unclear if this remains true whilst she is suspended from the PLP." stating quite clearly that the situation with the suspension made the membership status unclear.--Kitchen Knife (talk) 23:17, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

It's weird you're complaining about another editor not providing citations when you seem to be engaging in WP:OR yourself. The source [147] says "She is one of 34 members of the Socialist Campaign Group of MPs alongside Corbyn, Diane Abbott and John McDonnell.". No where does it say "She has stated" let alone "it is unclear if this remains true whilst she is suspended from the PLP". And it's a source from after (albeit very early) in the suspension so it's not even the case that it's a severely outdate source not that this would excuse adding OR. I don't know if this really needs to be here at ANI, probably WP:BLP/N would be better unless you really keep at it despite multiple editors telling you to stop. However it does seem to be that you have made a BLP violation by introducing something not mentioned by the citation provided. Indeed doing so in a way that may mislead editors into thinking it was supported. So please don't do that again, Nil Einne (talk) 04:33, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

We had two largely overlapping threads. Seems this thread was created before Alssa1 noticed the other one, unfortunate but happens. Best solution now is to merge this as a subthread of the other which I have done. Nil Einne (talk) 05:19, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I haven’t got into the detail of the dispute itself, but this user is far too quick to pull the ANI trigger and accuse people of bullying etc. The ANI thread here against me didn’t go their way so they completely ignored the advice given by others: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1070. Seems they are refreshed after a Wikipedia break and ready to cause more disruption that could be avoided by a bit of self awareness. If you’re continually in disputes, at some point you have to reflect on your own approach. Mark83 (talk) 05:55, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

To be clear my complaint is more down to Kitchen Knife's pattern of abusive behaviour when he encounters another editor he disagrees with, rather than a specific editing issue. I didn't appreciate the accusations of "bullying", being "very rude and pompous", among other things. It just seems to be totally unwarranted and not conducive to building a consensus with people; if the first thing an editor does when they're having a discussion is engaging in insults, I don't they (and Wikipedia generally) can progress as an online cooperative encyclopedia. Alssa1 (talk) 19:52, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

CIR issue from a month ago

• 919499sp (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

See this archived thread for context. The above editor's edits are indicative they do not have the "ability to read and write English well enough to avoid introducing incomprehensible text into articles and to communicate effectively". Many of their edits also keep introducing reports of "no problem reported" rail accidents (something which has been pointed out as not particularly enlightening...). I'm not sure keeping this unchecked will have any productive outcome, beyond people having to go take a look at it again and clean-up more of this editor's edit. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:07, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

919499sp (talk · contribs) has made a total of three edits to their talk:

• 21:36, 11 October 2021 "Sorry i dont know how to edit it"
• 23:27, 11 October 2021 (change a word in someone else's comment)
• 23:37, 11 October 2021 (blank the page)

Apart from the above, 919499sp has only edited articles. I plan to indefinitely block them in 24 hours unless there is a useful response or an alternative suggestion. Johnuniq (talk) 05:55, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: Given the very simple way they write and their obsession with trains, maybe it's possible that they're just on the younger side? They might just need a block for a year or so and they'll have a better grasp of the English language by then. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 16:20, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I've issued a WP:PBLOCK on the two most recent lists of rail accidents, and advised 919499sp to treat it as a de facto block for other similar lists. Talk pages remain available to suggest edits. Let's see if we can avoid an indeff here. Mjroots (talk) 17:39, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• @Mjroots: Their edit here shows they're not able to understand the instructions for an unblock... (and "I'll tell you why I was wrong if you unblock me, but I can't tell you now" is bad enough of an appeal as is). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:06, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

  Thus it is doomed to failure. Mjroots (talk) 11:59, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

  @RandomCanadian and Mjroots: This appears to be pure CIR. The user's responses have all been to the effect that they don't understand, including their first response to the partial block and the second attempt at an unblock request, which reads "So I am sorry i didnt know what is wrong but if you unblock me can you tell me whats wrong", not "I'll tell you why I was wrong if you unblock me, but I can't tell you now". Please let's try to be kind in how we talk to this editor. I'm going to try to explain at their talk page. Yngvadottir (talk) 01:57, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Legal threat by Dorierosie

Dorierosie (talk · contribs) has been editing the article about herself for nearly a decade. She was cautioned in Feb 2020 & has continued to edit it despite the conflict of interest. I imposed a partial block to ensure future compliance and pointed her to the WP:ERW (ticket:2021102510012533 email #2). She has responded with legal threats (email #3 & Special:Diff/1051963924) & has not been willing to retract them despite repeated requests to do so. I request a WP:NLT block. Cabayi (talk) 16:56, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I gotta say, I have no conflict of interest with myself [148] is peak irony. clpo13_(talk) 16:59, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@Cabayi: Their latest email to ticket:2021102510012533 seems to suggest they are willing to remove the legal threat? ~TheresNoTime ^{(to explain!)} 17:01, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

They have now said that they are going to get their publicist and entertainment lawyer to edit the article: [149]. Lavalizard101 (talk) 18:07, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Neither of whom will have any WP:COI, obvs... Narky Blert (talk) 18:28, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

This person is clearly upset and unfamiliar with Wikipedia PAGs. Maybe some of their concerns are legitimate; maybe some aren't. Either way, I think kindness and patience is the right approach here. See also WP:DOLT. AlexEng^(TALK) 18:27, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

They're not unfamiliar with the PAG they were told about WP:COI in February last year and decided to ignore it. Lavalizard101 (talk) 18:30, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Them being told about it and them (a) reading it and (b) understanding it are different things. We need to proceed with caution and understanding when it comes to the subjects of our articles, even if they are completely in the wrong. We're a human-edited encyclopedia, emphasis on the human. — THIS IS TREY MATURIN 18:33, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Regardless of anything else, blocking for the blatant attempt at chilling discussion with legal threats. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:22, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I respect our admins and the community but this seems extremely punitive, especially since she never made a direct threat. She didn't chill any discussion because there never was a discussion on the article talk page because she didn't even know how to get there. We are human beings after all. She made a comment on her own talk page out of frustration. She is clearly not a Wikipedian and I don't know if she has a desire to be one but, in my opinion, this action has chilled discussion more than anything she has said so far. --ARoseWolf 20:48, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

+1 "Legal threat" blocks (for things which often aren't anything like a legal threat) are a very popular opportunity for people to play sheriff. (Not speaking of this particular case when I say that, BTW.) EEng 21:21, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

She revealed private information about a VRT contributor on her talk page, after being asked not to. Her talk page history is full of oversight strikes - to be honest, I'm surprised she still has the ability to edit that talk page, let alone anywhere else. I'm all for showing respect and compassion to the subjects of our articles when they have issues, but we also need to consider the well-being of our contributors. She is not free to impugne them as she has been doing, or to reveal private information about them when they have the good grace to respond to her emails. Girth Summit _(blether) 21:33, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I never understood why blocking for legal threats wasn't a job for WMF Legal. If there's a legal reason to block for legal threats (like a liability reason or because the law requires it) then let the paid lawyers deal with it instead of us volunteers. For us volunteers, we should just process "legal threats" under our ordinary civility policies. I don't understand why we treat legal threats the same way we treat things like hate speech or outing (that is: with extreme prejudice). That said, in this particular case, there appears to me to be ample reason to block, not for NLT, but for other policy violations (detailed by GS above). Levivich 21:36, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

It is due to the chilling effect that legal threats have. No one would edit here if they feared that they would be sued. It's no different than hate speech in that it creates a poor editing environment. We don't need to be lawyers to protect the editing environment. 331dot (talk) 21:53, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) There’s no “legal” reason to block legal threats. It’s not particularly a WMF issue. It’s just the “chilling” effect - a subset of WP:CIVIL in many ways. DeCausa (talk) 21:59, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• And now they're spamming their talk with what are basically requests for proxy edits ("THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD READ EVEN THOUGH IM BLOCKED"); which also brings concern about them being able to understand the issues with their edits, which is as much, if usually less urgent of a problem, than the legal threats they've now been blocked for. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:37, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
  • Yeah I removed the spam the first time saying it was unneeded and got a reply which some could suggest was a bit uncivil (asking if i was Paid and worked for Wikipedia) and have removed it a second time and said it comes across as spam and possibly nothere, we shall see how they respond. Lavalizard101 (talk) 23:44, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

It is clear from their talk page that they have retracted their legal threat. As such I believe the legal threat block should be lifted, or replaced with a block referring to her other behavior. I think the block from her article should stand if they are unblocked and she should be encouraged to post on the article talk page. I also think without mentoring they are unlikely to remain unblocked. Clearly their anger level is high and I am concerned that they may make it impossible to work with the productively.

The issues they are complaining about should be looked into. It appears their concern about the wrong middle name has already been addressed. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 01:26, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

I'll let another admin handle it, but I'd also want an assurance that this user will refrain from posting personal information on Wikipedia, given that's been a recurring problem. The refusal to get the point and read basic instructions isn't helping her case, her talkpage is making my eyes bleed. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:05, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, but unblocking (while leaving the block from their article, with the already explained issue) at this time might be a valid use of WP:ROPE, and is likely to look better (i.e. make them less angry) than if we arbitrarily "re-block" them now for a different issue. If they continue despite further instructions, WP:NOTHERE and CIR are both valid reasons. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 03:08, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't volunteer to officially mentor, but also think a little rope would be good considering it was the first block (there are two log entries but the same day, one to update the other)... I left a message about the importance of using the article's talk page. A NOTHERE block is indeed close, but why not a second chance... —PaleoNeonate – 04:49, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

I think we need to take a step back here. Dorierosie has only signed up to Wikipedia because she's fed up of reading things about her that are untrue, possibly libellous, and actively harming their career. It's what I'd call a "distress purchase editor" who is only here to clear their name, with no interest whatsoever in learning policies and guidelines that are irrelevant to their goals. "I’m a 52-year-old woman and a working actress - I don’t have time for this." says everything you need to know. It's kind of like lecturing me on pipework and plumbing after I've got a leak which is flooding the kitchen - I don't care about specifics, I just want the damn thing fixed. Furthermore, as it hasn't been mentioned here, Dorierosie is using the mobile editor, which is well-known to have a poor and ineffective user interface, making a block appeal even harder (paging Suffusion of Yellow). Can you type in {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}} on a mobile app, even when you know exactly what you're doing - without looking up the template documentation? (After all, the odds that Dorierosie knows or even cares about that are approximately zero).

The only sane thing to do here is ensure that anything not compliant with WP:BLPSOURCES gets expunged from the article. I can see that Dorierosie wants her role in The Trial of the Chicago 7 documented, but it's not in that article and that's a reasonably well-written one, so I'm slightly curious as to how her role stacks up to, say Sacha Baron Cohen. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:59, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Ritchie333, I was looking at Wikipedia:Contact_us/Article_subjects, and its the usual overstuffed instructionbloat offering too much information and too many options. It starts with there are several avenues for you to discuss the issue with Wikipedia's editorial community, which is fatal right there -- we should just be giving one or two clear and simple paths to follow. I'm going to tinker with it a bit right now, but that will only be a start. Also, I'm wondering how to get more of the people who need to see it directed to it; I actually think an editnotice and/or talk page banner might actually work, since newbies are probably more likely to actually read editnotices and talk page banners. You know what else? All those banners about DYK and Wikiprojects and being the most-read article one day should be banished to the bottom of talk pages. EEng 15:37, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Well, fuck it, it's full protected. If I sandbox it, will you move it over for me when I'm done? EEng 15:38, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I can do that. I don't think that page is helpful; I'm sure the most common reason a notable person comes onto Wikipedia is because they want to correct something about themselves or are otherwise stressed about something. WP:BLPN is the place where complaints about living people get handled the best, with the widest audience. Asking them to use the talk page and avoid COI is kind of missing the entire point. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:42, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I've cut it severely, leaving a link to Wikipedia:FAQ/Article_subjects, which I've also taken a preliminary stab at. Your BLPN idea might fit in there somewhere. EEng 16:37, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Just a passing thought: Are we sure that there is enough independent coverage in reliable sources out there to sustain an article that complies with WP:BLP? The sources currently in there are an announcement, a brief mention in the blurb of a PR video, a credits listing, a tweet, a self-published blog post and a brief interview; I didn't find all that much in a quick google search either. I didn't spend much time on it though, and pop culture articles are pretty far away from my editing comfort zone, so that's not to say that there isn't any good sourcing out there, but I think it's important to ascertain whether that's the case. If the sourcing doesn't exist, it will be pretty much impossible to write an article that both complies with Wikipedia sourcing standards, and does the subject justice. --Blablubbs (talk) 13:27, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't help that trying to find sources brings back more false positives for Kate Miller-Heidke. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:16, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm just for trying to have a little compassion. She obviously doesn't intend to continue to edit here and she doesn't really care about policy because she doesn't intend to edit multiple articles. She seems to be okay with the block of her from editing the article on her. She just wants someone to help her. I'm kind of leaning the direction I see Ritchie going in. Is there even enough sourcing in the article to have an article in the first place? Having nothing might be better than having the wrong information. That may be a discussion for AfD but not here. She has already expressed the desire to have this article removed from her feed because it has apparently injured herself in some way or another. That's something we can't know the chilling affect from but we can try to understand and relate to as much as we can. --ARoseWolf 14:43, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

An AfD would likely draw more attention to the article and the subject of the article, right in the middle of her feeling hurt and angry and confused by us. What we need is a rouge admin willing to speedy it out of process, then take the flak at DR, which is a much less public and painful forum for the subject, but hell on Earth for the heroic admin who volunteers to take one for the team. — THIS IS TREY MATURIN 16:52, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

The article is now at AfD, ho hum. — THIS IS TREY MATURIN 09:06, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

• Where are the things in the article or in the history that are "untrue, possibly libellous, and actively harming their career"? I looked but can't find them. And the article is indeed problematic, as problematic as John DiMaggio and so many others--because they are BLPs of people who barely pass the GNG, if at all, but get enormous resume-style lists of all their voice work and what not, where huge-ass resumes are sourced to "sources" like this one. Is playing a "Restaurant owner" or "Blind Date #3" worth noting here? Even aside from notability, we have created for ourselves the opportunity to become a version of LinkedIn, maintained by the subjects themselves, where even the COI policy can be made to bend because merely listing more jobs or whatever isn't really promotional editing if our own editors do it in this off-hand way. Drmies (talk) 17:38, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Yoruba disruption (still)

• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1081 § Ppdallo & West Africa issues

I would really like to see this closed properly. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 15:32, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Next time propose a sanction. Saying "all I know is that something needs to change here" and not proposing any changes is going to make it difficult for an admin to close. I believe this is the plot of a "Yes, Minister" episode about the Politician's syllogism where we all end up agreeing that something must be done yet the bureaucracy of the situation results in the "something" being referred to further study until we all just forget about the issue and nothing happens. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 15:56, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

@MJL, Chess does make an excellent point. I’ve made the same error over and over again, wherein I report an incident without proposing a sanction, thus making the report hard to officially close by sysops, I believe the onus is on us to initiate a proposal. Celestina007 (talk) 16:14, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

@Celestina007 and Chess: Alright, I have re-notified Ppdallo about this issue. Let's talk WP:TBAN. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 17:43, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Close requested. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 17:49, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Now the edit warring has spread to the talk page itself, Talk:Yoruba people#Etymology Dispute and consensus. A table of sources was created, and the entries had been numbered for the sake of referencing them in the subsequent discussion. Once that had begun, one of them unilaterally rearranged and renumbered all the items, rendering the previous numeric references opaque. Those changes have now been undone and redone three times, with accusations of having deleted one user's commentary on top of the complaint over the renumbering. I think Ppadallo is the one who re-sorted and renumbered the table, creating the disruption, per Talisman-white's new entry at WP:AN3, with Ppadallo, who didn't create the table, insisting that it has to be ordered in Ppadallo's preferred way. Largoplazo (talk) 11:42, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@Largoplazo: Here I am, trying to watch Looper only to get a notification about this edit warring. If this doesn't show what I mean by this report that Ppdallo is disruptive, then I don't know what will.

For any admin out there, the report is here (permalink). –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 17:50, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Proposed T-BAN

Per the evidence laid out in the last report, and seeing that Ppdallo has failed to listen to any advice given on the matter since its opening,[150][151][152] I would like to formally proposed that Ppdallo receive a T-BAN for the topic of West Africa ethnic groups, broadly construed. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 17:53, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

• Support. As proposer. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 17:53, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
• Comment I have nowhere near the context that most of the participants in this discussion will have had, plus I'm not an admin, so I won't !vote, but at this point I draw your attention to the latest discussion, which I have found quite perplexing, at Talk:Yoruba people#Etymology Dispute and consensus, initiated by Ppdallo just over a day ago. After a bit, this appeared: That was why opened this new section and as soon as the protection on Yoruba People page is lifted i will go ahead and enforce (WP:ONUS) by reverting the Etymology section to just before you illegally made drastic edit on it, pending our resolution of the dispute in this new section. I read this not as "I will bring the article into compliance with any resolution that is reached" but somewhat closer to "I'll wait till the page is no longer protected and then I'll undo your work and return it to my version." Certainly nothing about taking into account other people's opinions as to which onus has or has not been met by any participant. Largoplazo (talk) 19:48, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Honestly? That reads a bit WP:NOTHERE to me. If they are openly saying they are going to revert to their version as soon as they are allowed to, I fully *Support a topic ban for them. RickinBaltimore (talk) 20:05, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

• Support — per analysis by MJL and RickinBaltimore. Celestina007 (talk) 21:10, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
• Support. As involved user with a brand new Ppdallo report it was just suggested I move into this voting section. Report I'm moving -Oluwatalisman (talk) 17:36, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
  

I think I should look for the suitable noticeboard to report all of you. Why do you folks so readily and selectively pick on me? Thank God there are procedures for doing things on wikipedia. Ppdallo (talk) 18:35, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

@Ppdallo: This is nothing personal. If I am being honest, I don't think you are the only one that could have done things a lot better. (Oramfe, you have been no angel in this dispute.) However, Ppdallo, you're contributions to this topic have been the most inflammatory; the most disruptive contributions I have seen.
I do not come at this from the perspective of a Nigerian as I am an Arab-American. Things like this I find personally appalling and do not conform to Wikipedia's policies on Civility. You can blame no one besides yourself and your own words for finding yourself here (again). –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 19:02, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

@ MJL are my statements any more inflammatory than the the Islamophobic and hate statements made by Oluwatalisman and Oramfe who, in addition, called a particular Tribe of people as "slaves, menial job doers, inconsequential, opportunistic vultures and willing tools"? Whoever or whatever you are does not matter here, I find your partial and selective reporting me to be even more serious than what you are accusing me of. By the way, how partial can you be on this issue when you are already involved in the dispute, by siding with Talisman and calling one of my reference as "citogenesis"?Ppdallo (talk) 19:54, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

It is what it is. I'm done responding here. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 20:45, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Support - As an involved user, the current dispute is only the most recent I (and others) have had with Ppdallo and he has shown no sign that he would make any change for the better. He had previously engaged in an edit war over a map involving the Yoruba people [153]|[154] and my reply to that here[155] and here[156]. Even accused my person of "wanton expansionism and sowing seeds of ethnic conflict in West Africa" here[157] He has been constantly engaging in edit wars on the Yoruba people across various subsections. ^User:MJL that was the context of some of the exchanges you may have seen me having with him, until I eventually had him reported over failures to heed edit warnings. How can he turn around to accuse multiple editors of readily and selectively picking on him" when he is the only common denominator with the various people? #Pointing fingers. Oramfe (talk) 19:57, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

  @Oramfe: What Ppdallo said to you is irrelevant and no excuse for comments like this where you indeed called the Fula people opportunistic vultures before immediately inquiring if the other editor in the dispute had any relation to that ethnicity (among other inappropriate things you said there). If I see something like that again, the next report will be about you.

  The reason I had not said anything sooner is (A) it was a month ago now, (B) Ppdallo's disruption is still ongoing, (C) I didn't want to overly complicate this report, and (D) I have not had a good opportunity to bring it up. Let this be your only warning to never make a comment like that again. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 20:44, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
  

@MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ this was his words (Hausas used to be slaves, domestic servants and menial job doers in old Oyo which was very cosmopolitan. Internal political rivalry destroyed Oyo-ile and the Fulanis came as the opportunistic vultures they usually present themselves to be. Hausas were inconsequential.lol.... All they did was cower in runaway refuge towns like Suleja.) Why are you covering things up? For your information i am not disrupting any Wikipedia article, rather i am doing my best to correct misinformation on articles i have knowledge on. Just check out the current dispute here and you will see.[158] I might just as well add here too that It is what it is. I'm done responding here. Ppdallo (talk) 21:37, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Support per other supporters and the blatantly inflammatory rhetoric Ppdallo has used here. A T-ban will be getting off easy, in my view. Jusdafax (talk) 20:06, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• Support - although not involved in the current debate, previous interaction with Ppdallo showed that there was no reasoning with him once he was set on a path, and the above discussion shows no change. Chaheel Riens (talk) 07:45, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

177.206.36.42, 89.172.36.162, Croats, and Serbians dispute

/* Original title was: From ip 177.206.36.42 vandalism, insulting, changing what is written in the source, accusing me of being another editor, etc. */

[[159]], [[160]]. [[161]], [[162]]. I am asking someone to return and fix the pages from the vandalism that ip is doing in edit war. Thank you 89.172.36.162 (talk) 04:24, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

He is a clearly a sock of Mikola22 [163] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.206.36.42 (talk) 04:36, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

The articles of concern are related to Serbia. I have a related RfPP report (permalink) about them which should probably be actioned.

177.206.36.42 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) claims 89.172.36.162 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is Mikola22 (talk · contribs) via the above diff. Mikola22 is topic banned from the area 89.172 has been editing.

I am going to notify Mikola22 about this just because he has been mentioned here. Still reviewing things, though. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 04:43, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I also sent a message to Mikola22. So let him respond to these accusations and insults89.172.36.162 (talk) 04:58, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Let them check if I am Mikola22, let them compare ip.I hope someone fixes this vandalism that you did from those articles. 89.172.36.162 (talk) 04:44, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

[164]177.206.36.42 (talk) 04:55, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Let them check everything , and most falsely putting false words that are not written in the source, that you have edited. Let them see all three articles you did vandalism 89.172.36.162 (talk) 05:02, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

As for me is concerned I have pointed to the fact(on administrator Peacemaker67 page)[165] that part of the information's where Croats are mentioned forcibly outside the RS changed to Serbs and no one reacted for months. I do not edit a single page except administrator Peacemaker67 page, nor am I interested in whether Serbs will remain in the place of Croats in the articles. It is the job of Wikipedia editors to control that. Otherwise, in opposite to reliable sources there are probably more of these changes but i can't fix them because i don't edit eng wiki anymore. This is what you need to do. Otherwise, if I had made such changes in my editorial career, I would have received blocks etc every day while these IP editors go unpunished. Thank you for righteousness. Mikola22 (talk) 05:12, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I see El C protected the pages we had edit war on. I wonder if this will check what is written in the edit war. I hope it won’t remain the last thing he wrote, because I didn’t want to give back anymore. I hope he will write correctly, that there will not be something left that is not true and vandalism. Please someone check out these 3 articles and decide what exactly is there. Thank you 89.172.36.162 (talk) 05:20, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I just wanted to tell if it's a protected site about leaving vandalism something that is not true and now that vandal is laughing, the administrator protected the page, and mine writes. That's what I wanted to say, someone should check the page later and correct it if it says incorrectly. So I want someone to check those three pages because they were left as ip 177.206.36.42 wrote which I say is not true, so check it out . Thank you 89.172.36.162 (talk) 05:42, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

By searching I see that it is one and the same user who changes the ip starting with 177.etc or 179.etc from Brazil, Espirito Santo City: Vitóriaevo, here is an example , [[166]], [[167]] ,here now and this changes whether someone will block it [[168]], more of this ip [[169]] , [[170]], [[171]] , etc..89.172.36.162 (talk) 07:18, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

To help you we should block this range ip as far as I could find. Although there are certainly more, it's all one and the same user. [[172]], [[173]], [[174]], [[175]], [[176]], [[177]], [[178]] It's all the same sockpuppet ,there must be more.89.172.36.162 (talk) 09:35, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

• Comment. I think 89.172 is right that 177.206.36.42 is the same user that can be found on 177.17.0.0/16 (In particular: 177.17.85.93,^[179][180] 177.17.93.255,^[181][182] 177.17.21.28,^[183][184] 177.17.17.99,^[185] and 177.17.92.231.^[186][187]) The later is notable because it exists on 177.17.88.0/21 which was CU-blocked by Drmies earlier this year. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 20:25, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Multiple incidents by User:LupangMalabo

• LupangMalabo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I don't know what this user's problem is, but their entire edit history consists of a very clear lack of understanding of how articles are created, which includes improper page moves without going through Articles for creation. I don't know what action should be taken here, but I at least need to see an admin get through to Lupang to try and guide them in the right direction. Jalen Folf (talk) 05:24, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

AFC is completely voluntary, and people shouldn't be move warring to put an article in AFC when that action has been contested. As WP:DRAFTOBJECT says: "Other editors (including the author of the page) have a right to object to moving the page. If an editor raises an objection, move the page back to mainspace, and if it is not notable, list it at AfD. A page may only be moved unilaterally to the draftspace a single time. If anyone objects, it is no longer an uncontroversial move, and the page needs to be handled through other processes, such as deletion, stubbing, tagging, etc." NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 06:27, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, and this is why I attempted to PROD EM10000 2 rather than going through the annoying effort of moving back to draftspace, and plan to do the same with other objected moves to draftspace if this keeps happening. The problem with Lupang's moves mostly comes down to a lack of knowledge of notability guidelines for each subject as well as the Articles for creation process. Also, recently, I tried pushing Lupang a second time to consider asking for advice on their editing at the teahouse, but the user continued to repeat their same editing behavior following my message. As was stated from the beginning of this thread, I do not think this editor should be blocked from editing right away, but rather be given proper warning from an established administrator and guided in the right direction. This may be a misguided editor, yes, but I don't think I've had enough encounters of this type of misguided editor to give a proper opinion on what should be done. Jalen Folf (talk) 04:06, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't think they're as clueless or misguided as they lead us to believe. Persistent disruptive editing, incoherent replies to queries or messages, etc. I think they're trolling. Itsquietuptown t • c 04:50, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Disruptive IP address editing fascism-related articles

69.121.9.199 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) has been editing articles with controversial changes that are not aligned with what mainstream sources say, such as at Fascist symbolism. After I reverted their change with an explanation asking them to discuss on the article's talkpage, they accused me of edit warring. They've also edited in a non-neutral manner at other articles, such as this edit on Jack Ciattarelli. This editor is also uncivil, including reverting a message from Drmies with the edit summary You can go f*ck yourself. They recently edit-warred on a user's talkpage archives here. The IP was previously blocked for a month for disruptive editing, but the block expired on September 26 2021. Elli (talk | contribs) 08:40, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Just noting that, in the meantime, I've partially blocked the IP from editing this page. No comment on any wider issues. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 08:51, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

The combination of aggressive incivility, hairsplitting about different flavors of fascism, and compulsion to label anything to the left of the Rotary Club as "far leftist" is familiar trope in this subject area. Blocked again, this time for three months. Acroterion (talk) 12:19, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

IP-hopping editor is changing romanizations at many articles

/* Original title was: Destructive edits */

• Special:Contributions/5.197.251.128/25

5.197.251.255 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) The essence of my claims is that someone anonymously on the English Wikipedia constantly "corrects" various transliterations in various articles, where there are texts in other languages ​​at their discretion. For example, everything from articles about Belarus, the Belarusian language (and everything that concerns Belarusian-language texts) to other articles with foreign-language texts. In particular, I am interested in the edits in the article about the Yakut language. In fact, this anonymous user has unleashed an edit war. In particular, he/she writes from IP addresses: 5.197.251.205, 5.197.251.133, 5.197.251.255, 5.197.251.157. Perhaps there are more of them, but from the style of the edits it is clearly noticeable that this is one and the same person. He removes transliterations of other users, promotes ONLY his own. Doesn't go into dialogue especially. And actually I would like to get some advice. What to do next? I would like to come to some kind of constructive.

p.s. I do not know where to write a complaint about vandal edits in the English Wikipedia.--Modun (talk) 09:34, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Everything you said is a lie. I have explained Belarusian romanization on a talk page, but you didn't respond then left for a few weeks and reverted all my edits.In fact you are the one starting edit war and inserting your opinion.We found a compromise on Yakution, but you wanted only your version, so you left for a few week and then reverted everything5.197.251.255 (talk) 10:04, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Everything?! Don't you take on a lot? I have already explained enough the shortcomings of the trinsliteration system you used. It is bulky and, to put it mildly, not comfortable. We even came to a consensus, this is what concerns the Yakut language.
At the expense of the Belarusian language and its Latin alphabet, this is a different story. The Belarusian language already has its own Latin alphabet under the name "Łacinka", and the transliteration system that you use is generally limited in terms of functions in use. In particular, it was created ONLY for transliteration of Belarusian geographical names within Belarus itself. This is written in black and white in the document itself, which approved this system.
and you, for that matter, is not the ultimate truth, so that by your own arbitrariness (and also anonymously) you can tell other Wikipedia users how to write an article. Claims, by the way, not only I have against you, but also other users!--Modun (talk) 10:19, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Lacinka is NOT romanization. Look at the romanization of the Belarusian Wikipedia page and you will see that none of the systems uses polish L.Belarusian is written in Cyrillic, so there is no point in bringing up Lacinka. And we reached a consensus in Yakutian talk page but you broked it by reverting everything. I am pretty sure you deliberately waited for some time in order to revert everything. I explained my edits, but you didn't respond. 5.197.251.255 (talk) 11:31, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

And I never wrote anywhere that Łacinka is just a romanization of the Belarusian language. Łacinka is a historically developed Belarusian Latin alphabet. And yes, if you are referring to the presence of the article "Romanization of Belarusian" in the English Wikipedia, then keep in mind that there is another article on Wikipedia "Belarusian Latin alphabet" which you are diligently trying to bypass.
By the way, I did not expect anything to make edits in the article about the Yakut language. I just accidentally noticed about the existing changes already due to the latest changes.
And as I already said, you are not the ultimate truth that you indicate at your discretion which edits are "correct" and which are "wrong." You've put a lot on yourself!
By the way, why are you editing from multiple IP addresses?--Modun (talk) 11:52, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Then why you are using anachronistic Lacinka as a romanization that no entity recognizes including Belarusian state. By the way, I have no idea why multiple accounts appear. 5.197.251.255 (talk) 12:21, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Oh really? That is, you have no idea why, at the same time interval, anonymously from IP addresses from the same country, edits are made in the same articles and on the same subject? Are you taking us for idiots? That transliteration system for the Belarusian language that you are trying in every possible way to cram into each article is used ONLY for GEOGRAPHICAL names, and only within Belarus. The Belarusian version of the article on the Belarusian Latin alphabet is written about this in black and white! In addition, the Belarusian language actually uses two spelling norms for which, in fact, there are different segments of Wikipedia, seemingly as for separate languages.--Modun (talk) 12:31, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Your last edits in the article about the Russian language, by the way, are very "constructive"--Modun (talk) 12:38, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

No, I have no idea why I switch between accounts. Seriously. And again please read on how to romanize Belarusian in Wikipedia page. Lacinka is not romanization and shouldn't be used as such and generally, it isn't used in any context. Everything should be romanized according to Wikipedia rules and again there is a Wikipedia article for that. I repeat again Lacinka is NOT romanization and shouldn't be used because it is used by no one and is anachronistic.And what a weirdo are you?Why do Russian language edits matter? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.197.251.255 (talk) 12:48, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Then that you have received a complaint for non-constructive edits, and you continue to make other non-constructive edits? Seriously?
For the Yakut language (and other Turkic languages), there are no instructions at all on how to “correctly” transliterate the language into Latin. This means that your system cannot be "correct" either. But the common Türkic alphabet is quite itself a universal transliteration system. It is quite enough for transliteration of the Turkic languages.--Modun (talk) 12:58, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

The more you two go back and forth, the less likely anyone uninvolved takes a look at this. It looks to be a content dispute from what I've seen. Also, often times IP editors have no control over when their IP changes. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:23, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the edit conflict, ScottishFinnishRadish. I hope you realize we're enemies now! El_C 13:28, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Looks like I'll have to place a block template on your talk page so you can't edit at me. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:32, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

• A couple of things. First, not sure why Modun says the IP's range isn't legit. And sort of hinting throughout that editing unregistered is somehow below registered editing, but that is not so. Also, not sure about the romanization and transliterations and so on, but I'm seeing the IP getting reverted by multiple editors when correcting language usage — with the reasoning given being official (legislated) usage. Like, on Russian language, which isn't what the sentence [and is used widely...] or the cited source [gallup.com] are saying (diff). The IP also has a point when they write in multiple edit summaries Unexplained removal, because for some reason Modun is reverting them without even bothering to write an edit summary (example diff). Regardless of who is right here, it doesn't look great. The best sources should win the day, not sheer numbers or presumed status. And browbeating a content opponent in this way is not on.

That said: IP, there are Wikiprojects that you can try to gain the consensus toward changing multiple pages to align with whatever. There are also dispute resolution requests, like Third opinion and a Request for comment. Don't call Modun a weirdo. Conduct yourself professionally in a manner befitting a collorbative project, please. El_C 13:25, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree, maybe I behaved somewhat unprofessional and I should have been more careful. But I want to note similar edits as mine were made by other users, therefore I can assume that they also have similar claims. Actually, for what I wrote here so that the other participants judge us and resolve controversial issues. In particular, the weak point of the given argument about transliteration of the Belarusian language approved by the law is that this system is limited in use. The law of the Republic of Belarus "on the approval of instructions for transliteration geographical names of the Republic of Belarus by letters of the Latin alphabet" (in Russian). I don't know the translation of the law itself into English, but from the name itself it seems clear that this transliteration is used in limited cases. In general, Łacinka differs from transliteration by only one letter. Because of what, in fact, the controversy began. Actually, neither the Constitution nor the law on the languages ​​of the Republic of Belarus gives an understanding of which writing is traditional or which writing has official support. But it is clear from history that the Belarusian language has both different scripts (Cyrillic and Latin).
By the way IP, if I wanted to resolve controversial issues myself, I could be the first to contact other users in the future.--Modun (talk) 14:54, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I've retitled this thread from "Destructive edits" to "IP-hopping editor is changing romanizations at many articles" in the effort to be more neutral. Although this IP editor may be well-intentioned they are making a high volume of changes in areas that are obscure to most people. Thus they might be inserting wrong information that won't be easily noticed. (They have made 500 edits since July 23 and many of those changes have been reverted by others). In my opinion they risk being mistaken for a vandal unless they will open a centralized discussion to get consensus for this kind of change. The Lacinka stuff in Belarusian is a well-known disagreement that has a history, for example. EdJohnston (talk) 16:19, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Actually, there is a consensus. Look at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Cyrillic) 5.197.251.255 (talk) 19:31, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Interestingly, I reread it in the whole discussion, but I still did not understand. And on what basis did you decide to expand the use of this system for non-Slavic languages? After all, they never came to a consensus?--Modun (talk) 20:42, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

As you can see there (which "is not a recommendation") for Belarusian "BGN/PCGN for Belarusian language system (1979) is to be used" and "Instruction on transliteration of Belarusian geographical names with letters of Latin script may be additionally included". Lacinka on the other hand "is not to be used". For non-Slavic languages, it states "choose a relevant standard used in recent reliable sources on the subject. Some collections of romanization systems: ALA-LC Romanization Tables, BGN/PCGN romanization systems (By the way, this is the system I have cited), UNGEGN Working Group on Romanization Systems. See also Romanization of Kyrgyz." 5.197.251.255 (talk) 06:42, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

As for the Belarusian language, it is still quite clear. But I still don't understand, but on the basis of what for the rest of the non-Slavic languages ​​only the specified system was selected and recommended? I have not found a single discussion that raised this issue. Accordingly, on the basis of what and by whom were only these systems selected? This issue was raised by user Mzajac, but the discussion did not go further in this direction.--Modun (talk) 07:36, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

The Wikipedia romanization systems for various languages were selected variously and without coordination, and based on some choices that turned out not to be the best. In my opinion, the romanization rules for Belarusian, Russian, Rusyn, and Ukrainian should be harmonized for consistency and to better serve readers, and their scope expanded beyond “naming.” Until then, we should use the Belarusian guideline at WP:CYRL, because it is not terrible and will give consistency for the one language. I haven’t reviewed any of the edits in dispute, but it sounds like the editors are starting a productive conversation. Do you think you can both agree on respecting the guideline? —Michael Z. 17:06, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

I personally can agree with respect for the leadership. But all the same, I do not agree with the general leveling in the form of a general system of romanization for almost all Cyrillic languages, because the chosen system has objective flaws that can be misleading. In particular, the Latin letter "Y" is overloaded with functions according to the system used. In particular, as many as three Cyrillic letters "ь", "й" and "и" are translated through it. A simple example in the Yakut language: in this language, letter combinations «-ыы-», «-ыа-», «-йа», «-ыйы-» are quite often observed, which are trastelled too monotonously. A simple example of transliteration of the words ыйытыы -yyytyy (question), ый - yy (moon/month), кыайыы - kyayyy (victory). And there are plenty of such controversial points in the Yakut language. Instead of resolving soporific moments, this system, on the contrary, is too misleading. Is it normal?--Modun (talk) 23:37, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

P.S. in the Belarusian language there are simultaneously valid orthography norms (some do not recognize the new orthography, therefore, the old orthograthy also exists in parallel), respectively, for these two orthographies, there are also two variants of Łacinka for the corresponding orthographies
P.s.s. I do not know how things are with other non-Slavic languages, but I suspect that approximately the same problems arise, and maybe even worse. In general, I believe that if you do not know how this system will work, then you should not start introducing it at your own discretion either.--Modun (talk) 23:50, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

I didn't make the rules. If you want you can use ALA-LC Romanization Tables, which doesn't have a given problem. In respect to Lacinka, it is written black and white that Lacinka shouldn't be used. 5.197.251.232 (talk) 09:55, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Lacinka must go to hell and be purged from the English Wikipedia.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:44, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

In every single discussion we ever had in this project, consensus was that Lacinka is never the most common name, with the exception of the discussions fully dominated by the group of hardcore Belarusian driveby editors.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:46, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

This IP has also been "correcting" romanizations of the Adyghe language, what they fail to realize is that slavic latinization does not work for Adyghe. Adigabrek^Talk 20:53, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Is there consensus for your romanization? 5.197.251.232 (talk) 10:00, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

As of today (October 30) this IP editor has resumed changing romanizations. There have been small discussions at Talk:Yakut language and Talk:Belarusians, but no discussion at all at the two pages most recently changed. In my opinion the IP should stop with these changes until they have found consensus for them. EdJohnston (talk) 21:18, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Didn't we already found a consensus? 5.197.251.232 (talk) 09:41, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Well, judging by everything that the dispute continues, we did not find a consensus. At the expense of the Belarusian language, everything is more or less clear. But now we are talking about other romanizations of non-Slavic languages--Modun (talk) 10:42, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Okay, specifically the romanization of the Yakut language. Are you satisfied with the KNAB 1995 system? And let's finally close the topic of this particular language. But all the same the question (or rather questions) is how to romanize the rest of the non-Slavic languages ​​also using the Cyrillic alphabet? These systems have not yet been developed for all languages.--Modun (talk) 14:02, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to use ALA-LC Romanization Tables (https://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/romanization/nonslav.pdf) which has unique letters for Ы and Й, and it would be according to Wikipedia rules. As to how to romanize every single non-Slavic language using Cyrillic, we should use ALA-LC Romanization Tables, BGN/PCGN romanization systems, or UNGEGN Working Group on Romanization Systems.I didn't make these rules.If you don't like it you shouldn't argue with me, but with the author of these rules. 5.197.251.232 (talk) 14:41, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

In general, do what you want. And you're right, you don't make the rules. You are just introducing confusion instead of constructively introducing your work to Wikipedia. Just notice how many times other users have canceled your edits. I still do not understand why it was necessary to break from scratch an already less worked-out system that was quite enough for transliteration.--Modun (talk) 15:36, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

User:Asbarelam

• Asbarelam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I am certain this user is not here to build an encylopedia. They make no contribution to wikipedia. they have few edits, and occasionally come back, but all of their edits are POV Karachay-Balkar nationalist edits removing things related to Circassians or replacing them as if they are Karachay-Balkar things. The edit descriptions are stuff like "typo corrected." or "corrected incorrect information." things you can expect from a typical vandal. The only thing this user has done since they joined was to remove things about Circassians. The account was dormant for a while but they have now returned and made two more edits which are, again, removing things about Circassians. I am certain this user is a chauvinist and not here to build an encyclopedia as all they ever did on Wikipedia was to remove things related to Circassians. Sincerely, Adigabrek^Talk 14:14, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

They have now started an edit war (which I won't respond to) on one of the articles where I reverted their edit, and called me a "great vandalism supporter" in the Turkish language. They are continuing their "efforts" and I do not want to engage in edit wars with them. Best wishes, Adigabrek^Talk 14:11, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree that it's very weird how they're only removing content related to Circassians and in the process using sources that are listed as unreliable. The edit summary being in Turkish is unusual, especially since this is the English Wikipedia. It's likely they're up to no good. Jurtaa (talk) 14:39, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Honestly, I might just leave it until an admin sorts it out. Multiple sources that they listed do state that the father of Ludmilla Tchérina is of Georgian origin, but one source I found states that they are of Circassian origin, so I'm not sure what to believe. The way they wrote their edit summary for this revision and their usage of unreliable sources raises too many red flags to count, so I'd say that they are very likely WP:NOTHERE. Jurtaa (talk) 18:28, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@Jurtaa: I mean the problem is not that one article, I hadn't even heard of who that person in the article is before checking their edits. The problem is that their general goal seems to be remove things about Circassians and their attitute is... not kind, at the very least. Adigabrek^Talk 19:47, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

188.149.107.101

188.149.107.101 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

How this IP has casually been doing this for a year is perplexing. Most of his/her edits (which have been reverted) have to do with pushing a fictive Kurdish or Feyli origin to various articles. It's literally gonna take an hour or two if I am going to link and explain all his/her disruptive edits, so I'll just link a few of them. Looking at the talk page of the IP, I seem to have reported him/her before, but to no avail. I can't find the original discussion though. EDIT: Found it [188]

27 October 2020 - Added unsourced claim that the family of Ruhollah Khomeini is Kurdish

27 October 2020 - Added unsourced claim that Leyla Qasim was Feyli

27 October 2020 - Added unsourced claim that Adel Murad was Feyli

29 October 2020 - Changed the (sourced) descent of Mero from Turkish to Kurdish

1 November 2020 - Added unsourced claim that Shwan Jalal is Feyli

1 November 2020 - Added unsourced claim that the Malekshahi are Feyli

24 November 2020 - Changed Luri to Feylis/Lurs

5 February 2021 - Added the Kurdish name of the Medes, an ancient kingdom that has nothing to do with Kurds and existed long before them

7 March 2021 - Changed Kurdish to Feyli

10 April 2021 - Added unsourced claim that the Zands were Kurdish dynasty

3 October 2021 - Once again attempted to claim that the Malekshahi are Feyli

4 September 2021 - Added unsourced claim Reza Shah's mother was Kurdish

4 September 2021 - Changed Persian to Persian-Kurdish

Judging by these edits, it goes without saying that the IP is clearly WP:NOTHERE --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:48, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I left the IP a warning. Please let me know if problems continue. You might do that by adding to the IP's talk with a diff or two and a brief explanation of the problem, and include a ping to me. Johnuniq (talk) 02:41, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: Please check the IP's latest edit: 16:13, 31 October 2021. I blocked the IP as they were continuing their unexplained and unsourced changes. Johnuniq (talk) 02:52, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

User:Haleth using proxies and alt accounts to harass me.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Was going to let this be, but I'm realllllly getting tired of this. User:Haleth apparently took umbrage at something I said on Discord a while back in late June, and has since been attacking my contributions. I wouldn't particularly mind, as I've plenty of watchlisted articles that do need sprucing up, except that a) this doesn't seem to be done with an aim to improving the encyclopedia, but a personal vendetta, and b) they are apparently using undisclosed alts and socks to do it. Since June, a bunch of proxy IPs have tried to start article reassessments on articles I edit, or get other people to start them, e.g. 58.187.231.180 (talk · contribs), 45.119.84.59 (talk · contribs), 125.192.15.65 (talk · contribs) and 180.195.208.219 (talk · contribs); these seem to be obvious Haleth alts as their interleaving edits and interests demonstrate (e.g. [189] or [190], where the IP is editing Haleth's own draft pages or articles minutes after or before Haleth repeatedly). I asked Haleth off-wiki to own up to his edits instead of hiding them; immediately after, an account was created solely to vandalize talk pages (I suppose the other editors targeted are a smokescreen, or else others Haleth has beef with?) Now there are new single-purpose accounts being created (User:HaloFanDude, User:HaloFanBoys) to continue the process. I'm getting rather tired of this bizarre response, and am at the point where I think some remedy is necessary. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 15:01, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

@David Fuchs: This is probably LTA MyRoyalYoung (MRY), not Haleth. I've been blocking proxy IPs and socks related to this latest spree of fictional character edits all month. He "deceased"s me regularly. -- ferret (talk) 15:10, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Joe-jobbing doesn't make much sense to me as an explanation, given this only starts after I have a disagreement with the user in question and the contributions line up as such. And starting reassessments or a focus on Halo doesn't nicely line up with MRY's interests specifically. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 15:16, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I've been blocking this proxy user all month. I am fairly certain that it's not Haleth. It's much broader than Halo, that seems to just be the overlap you're experiencing. They're editing across the entire swath of fictional characters from numerous franchises, and I've placed at least 15 blocks in relate to them including 3 other accounts. Regardless, the "deceased" attack account is a classic LTA harassment that MRY or related does periodically. I get that once or twice a month almost. Don't have much more to offer I suppose. -- ferret (talk) 15:22, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, HaloFanDude and HaloFanBoys are  Confirmed to each other, as far as I can tell  Unrelated to Haleth, suspect joe-jobbing.  No comment with respect to IP address(es). GeneralNotability (talk) 15:14, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

@GeneralNotability: Can you say anything about the technical relationship between those two and A wiseman knows everything, fictional articles sucks. (talk · contribs)/MRY? --Blablubbs (talk) 16:20, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Blablubbs, possilikely at best - similar geo, same ISP, different devices, nothing sufficiently distinctive to make a call. GeneralNotability (talk) 16:35, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Mr Fuchs, besides the evidence supplied by other admins in this discussion that the IP edits and sock accounts have nothing to do with this account, which has been registered on Wikipedia for more then 15 years, I think your brazen decision to file a vexatious ANI report against me, without any tangible SPI and CU evidence, says a lot more about your personal vendetta against me and the nonsensical basis behind your allegations. We've barely interacted, except for maybe a brusque comment or two on or off Wiki which I thought little of, but now it is quite clear that you've been nursing a personal grudge ever since. I have better things to do with my time then tag bombing articles or trying to force an article through to the GAR process, not to mention the fact that I never left a GAR tag on any article throughout my on-wiki time here and would need to research the proper procedure on how to actually do it. You also conveniently left out the fact that I responded to your Discord DM literally minutes afterwards, demanding a reasonable explanation to your wild accusations, to which you never replied to. I have passed on a screenshot of the chat log to a Discord moderator for their reference and to prove that you never bothered to confirm your suspicions or make an attempt to sort out our perceived differences. It's quite unbecoming of you, as an administrator AND a member of Arbcom, to drag me to ANI over some insubstantial allegations and your casting of aspersions at me without any credible evidence. I think a WP:BOOMERANG for you may be appropriate here. I also find it incredibly baffling that you would characterize spam edits and tag bombing to reassess a couple of mainspace Wikipedia articles to be personal harassment, but maybe some editors might think that your ownership issues over the Halo franchise topic area to be a benign quirk. Haleth (talk) 15:55, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

You profess to not nurse any hard feelings, yet you were the one complaining to other people about my comments on Discord (which is the only reason I found out about it, because another user said you were very upset about it.) I'm not sure '15-year editor couldn't possible figure out how to do a GAR' is a compelling counterclaim, and I still don't see how the likelihood of an SPI joe-jobbing a random editor for the better part of half a year for reasons unknown makes more sense than the more obvious answer that you're editing from multiple accounts and interleaving your edits (any thinking person can obfuscate the technical data.) I don't see any reason to retract my claim, since it makes far more sense in this context than the alternative. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 17:13, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

David Fuchs, you mean the time when you would openly denigrate other editors' contributions on a public Discord chat, something that you, a long time and rather prominent member of the Wikipedia community, should have known better to be not very appropriate or nice? So maybe I was unimpressed with your off-wiki conduct and your decision to publicly single me out, and I may have told someone else about it. How long ago was that? Four months ago, and "very upset" may not be very accurate since you only heard about it from someone else. Don't let that distract from the fact that you seem to know more about my editing patterns then I do yours, and right now you are the one who wouldn't drop the stick with filing a vexatious ANI even after two other admins have told you, after doing their due diligence, that I have nothing to do with the sock puppetry or disruptive edits, not to mention pointing out the logical fallacy behind how you came to that conclusion and doubling down on it. I said I have yet to do a GAR because I haven't had a compelling reason to figure out the proper procedure of doing it yet, and certainly not to pick a pointless fight with someone like you. But clearly you have every intention to pick a fight with me regardless of the evidence at hand. Haleth (talk) 18:23, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

With respect, you're basically saying that they are smart enough to know how to obfuscate the technical data, but not smart enough to separate the attack sock activity from their main account. We can go down the doublethink rabbit hole all day, of course ("well of course he's doing them close together because he knows we'll think that's too obvious"). GeneralNotability (talk) 17:21, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

i used to use that as an arugment for why “password” was a good password when I was young. LakesideMiners^{Come Talk To Me!} 17:38, 29 October 2021 (UTC) LakesideMiners^{Come Talk To Me!} 17:38, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

It used to be one of those rules in movies. (1) All monitors display text in letters 4 inches high. (2) All passwords can be easily cracked, usually by a couple of teens guessing PASSWORD, on their third attempt. Narky Blert (talk) 22:06, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I have met Haleth for a long time and he is always civil with me even on Discord. I find it ridiculous to see him as a sockpuppet when he is always busy creating new content for Wikipedia so please assume good faith.Tintor2 (talk) 23:41, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Haleth is one of the best contributors I've seen at AfD. I find it impossible to believe that they would be socking. Considering that the OP has now doubled down on their accusations, I suggest a WP:BOOMERANG. Mlb96 (talk) 01:37, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Not really sure what would justify that, beyond spite. It just needs to be closed. A concern was raised. The concern was debunked. Discussion is over, everyone move on. Sergecross73 msg me 13:50, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Inappropriate talk page message needs redacting

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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BloodIronFan (talk) just left a nasty hateful message on their talk page. May want to look into this. Waddles 🗩 🖉 21:26, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I deleted the comment, but should probably be revdel'd, and use should be indeffed. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 21:34, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Both done, with TPA revoked, because no. El_C 21:49, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Follow up. BIF created Draft:The Red Sun (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) and seemed to be working on it. Then the last edit they made before the block was to create The Red Sun (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). Should they be merged or deleted? MarnetteD|Talk 21:56, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

I deleted the article. It was an out of process copy-and-paste move of the draft. clpo13_(talk) 22:01, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for checking on this Clpo13. MarnetteD|Talk 22:04, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Babydoll9799

This editor Babydoll9799 (talk · contribs) is disruptively removing valid categories from articles and edit warring to keep them out, see edit history at Billy Balmer as an example. They are removing Category:People from District, on the basis that the bio is already categorised by both Category:Profession from City, but these categories are not mutually exclusive - if everybody was classified only by Category:Profession from City (footballer, actor etc.), there would be nobody in the Category:People from District category, and the category would be empty and pointless. But, it's not, which shows that it is a valid category.

Furthermore, edits like this violate WP:SUBCAT, and I am concerned why this user is trying to place articles in less precise categories!

A quick look at their talk page shows other users have raised similar concerns (regarding disruptive editing and edit warring) for a number of years now, and they have refused to discuss the matter with me, simply reverting and edit warring. Can somebody please take a further look? GiantSnowman 12:47, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Above person is missing my point. Please don't try to make this about myself being some kind of problem. My point is the birthplace and "People from" category. People are not actually from a district the are born in the city, IE Liverpool. The district can be noted on the individual's page and also the person can be noted on the district page.Babydoll9799 (talk) 12:55, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

The category overlap with "Footballers from Liverpool" is taken out of context. This can co-exist with "People from Liverpool". If you wish. I don't have a problem with that. Babydoll9799 (talk) 12:56, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

The other user is the one choosing to edit war. The point is, the person is from (city) Liverpool. Not West Derby. You can see by my edits that this is exactly what I have been clearing up. Babydoll9799 (talk) 12:58, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Also to say I have "refused" to discuss with him is a lie. I have not "refused". In fact you can argue that the above user has refused to understand what I have been trying to do. In view of "I am concerned why this user is trying to place articles in less precise categories! ".

The the place of birth is the city, not the district a person is from. Also I have been checking where these people are from that I have corrected and a handful are not even from the places they are supposed to be. Babydoll9799 (talk) 13:03, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

User GiantSnowman stated to me on my talk page "Please do not remove categories - a player can be in both Category:Footballers from City and Category:People from District, they are not mutually exclusive.". When stating 'People from District' this should be clarified, as the general view I get is this means the city or town; and not the inner district within the city or town. I can assure you I understand the above point from GiantSnowman and this is reflected the person is both a 'Footballer from Liverpool' and 'People from Liverpool'. West Derby is an historical township but it has been within Liverpool for some time. Babydoll9799 (talk) 13:28, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

You need to be more succinct in your comments, I don't actually have a clue what your position is - especially with edits like this (removing category) followed by this (restoring the same category 2 mins later). If Burnham can be in both Category:Politicians from Liverpool and Category:People from Aintree, why can't Billy Balmer be in both Category:Footballers from Liverpool and Category:People from West Derby? You have contradicted yourself there.

If you are saying that people can't be 'from' a district, then why do we have a long established category tree of that nature? Doesn't that tell you anything?

You did refuse to discuss, you ignored WP:BRD, you continued to remove the category despite my revert, and ignored my talk page posts. GiantSnowman 13:37, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Also no, a person cannot be in both Category:People from Liverpool and Category:Footballers from Liverpool per WP:SUBCAT. People get categorised into district and profession. I am growing increasingly concerned about your editing and competence. GiantSnowman 13:37, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Are you from Liverpool? Aintree is outside the city boundary but West Derby is within the city boundary, so a person from West Derby is from Liverpool a person from Aintree is technically, not from Liverpool. There is a wider consensus to promote Liverpool which is why I added politicians from Liverpool. But to call me wrong on another matter is just poor judgement on your part. You seem to be point scoring. Good for you. I am arguing that in the first two pages you chose to revert were a person from Toxteth and from West Derby. Their birthplace will still be Liverpool. Therefore they are from Liverpool. What more can I add? When you look at People by Districts it is Liverpool that is named not any inner district from the city. Whereas Aintree, is outside the city boundary. Babydoll9799 (talk) 13:56, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

When did I refuse to discuss this matter? I have had diaglogue with you but again and again you are not listening to what I am saying. Stop talking down to me. Listen to what I am saying. West Derby is not classified the same as Aintree. West Derby is a part of Liverpool, Aintree is just outside the boundary. Just outside, technically a person will still say they are from Liverpool but for the purpose of this the city (or district) is Liverpool not West Derby. Babydoll9799 (talk) 14:00, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

As you can see here https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Category:People_by_district_in_England Liverpool is noted so to Knowsley, just like Luton. The district is the city for the purposes of this the person is from Liverpool. Babydoll9799 (talk) 14:05, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

As you quoted "No, you are just plain wrong - the issue is we do get as specific as Category:People from District, hence why those categories exist!". You are pointing something out to me but you're not understanding why I made the corrections. Babydoll9799 (talk) 14:10, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

As stated on the header: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Category:People_by_district_in_England This category groups people by the 326 local government districts of England (32 London boroughs, 36 metropolitan boroughs, 201 non-metropolitan districts, 55 unitary authorities, the Isles of Scilly and the City of London). (See Category:People by city or town in England for people in cities and towns.) Babydoll9799 (talk) 14:12, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

You state "People get categorised into district and profession" and yet immediately prior you say no, so what is it to be? Also "I am growing increasingly concerned about your editing and competence". You again make this a personal attack on myself. When all through this I have continually imformed you what my point is. Babydoll9799 (talk) 14:24, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Your point, as expressed here, seems to be that "we don't need to be too specific like people from West Derby. The city is Liverpool". However, that completely ignores the long standing and well established categories of the Category:People from District series. This is a WP:IDONTLIKEIT argument and is therefore not valid. Like it or not, the categories exist and are in use. So, again, why have you repeatedly removed the Category:People from West Derby category when it is entirely valid? I really need a third party here to step in please, because this editor is disruptively removing valid categories from articles purely based on WP:IDONTLIKEIT. GiantSnowman 14:37, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

My partner's family always said they were from West Derby. They were also proud Liverpudlians. Both can be simultaneously true. If I was to create an article for my partner's grandfather, it could happily be placed in both "People from West Derby" and "Bakers from Liverpool" and still be correct. — THIS IS TREY MATURIN 16:44, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

• I don't think it matters what Babydoll9799 or any other editor thinks about whether a person is "from Liverpool" or "from West Derby". The only thing that matters is what reliable sources (RS) say. If the RSes say "from West Derby", then we say "Category:People from West Derby". End of discussion. If the RSes say "from West Derby" and someone is changing "Category:People from West Derby" to "Category:People from Liverpool", that's disruptive editing and should stop. However, if the RSes say "from Liverpool" and someone is changing "Category:People from West Derby" to "Category:People from Liverpool", then that's productive editing and thank you for fixing that. I'm not sure which one this is but it should be pretty straightforward to figure that out. Levivich 17:37, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@Levivich: - reliable sources confirming that Balmer was from West Derby include this and this and this. Therefore, in the absence of a Category:Footballers from West Derby (which would likely be OVERCAT in any event), the correct categories are Category:Footballers from Liverpool and Category:People from West Derby. Therefore, as you say, Babydoll9799's editing in removing Category:People from West Derby has been disruptive, has it not? GiantSnowman 18:04, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Yeah this is just classic WP:RGW editing ignoring WP:V (and our category policy and what it says about categories being supported by the body, i.e. cats must meet V)... not the first editor to take the position I know the truth, sources be damned! If this disruption continues, a sanction may be necessary to stop it. And it should be mentioned that when it comes to the birthplaces and similar biographical details of pro athletes, entertainers, and others whose professions involve advertising biographical statistics such as birthplace, there will be an "official", advertised birthplace (or height, weight, age, name, etc.) that will be easy to source (because it was advertised, e.g. footballer stats websites), and since our articles are summaries of those sources, we would list the "official", whatever it was. Even if it's actually incorrect! If someone is known for being born in West Derby then we say that, regardless of whether they were born there or not. If their birth certificate conflicted with what RSes say, we'd go with RSes, not the birth certificate. This is an issue (truth v verifiably) as old as Wikipedia, and almost all our core content policies are aimed at addressing this. Levivich 18:52, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@Levivich: perhaps therefore you would be kind enough to undo their edits at the Balmer article, given that they are unwilling to do it themselves despite admitting that they were wrong (although not for the right reasons). GiantSnowman 19:04, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

No need, helpfully @Orangemike: has restored the correct edit. Many thanks both. GiantSnowman 19:10, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@Levivich: I don't have an opinion on the main subject of this dispute, but it seems quite unlikely to me that it'd ever be correct to insist an article contain information that is known for a fact to be untrue. At the very least, it ought to be omitted -- especially in a biography. and especially especially in a BLP. jp×g 10:21, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

I find it quite laughable and insulting the way I am being talked down to by GiantSnowman.

In addition, Levivich. You are 100% disregarding the fact that West Derby in this example, is simply just a part of Liverpool. It is NOT I repeat NOT, a place where someone comes from as the place where they come from in this example is Liverpool. Of course like Trey Maturin has put it, we can come from places like West Derby. I was born in Everton. But my page would not say "People from Everton" it would say "People from Liverpool". Because the city is Liverpool my birthplace is Liverpool it is Liverpool in People by district in England.

I often find (as in response from Levivich here) that when someone starts kicking up a fuss then there is someone else that will tell you the claim must be sourced or show what a source says. But remember, West Derby, Toxteth, Everton, unlike say Aintree or Bootle, are part of Liverpool since the 1800's. Therefore it does not matter what you say about the source, the fact is the person is born in the late 1800's or in the 1900's then if they are from West Derby their place of birth is Liverpool. It's a fact. It's not me being disruptive or petty. Babydoll9799 (talk) 18:22, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

So from minding my own business and correcting categories to show where people are from, based on city, rather than a locality within the city, I am now being accused of being disruptive and changing articles because "WP:IDONTLIKEIT". Please stop behaving like a dead behind the eyes robot and understand it is not always black and white. And, as Trey Maturin said both can be simultaneously true. Babydoll9799 (talk) 18:33, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

To that end I admit that West Derby did not become absorbed in to Liverpool until 1895 so technically, the page in question (Billy Balmer) would be born in West Derby, Lancashire. (Now Liverpool). Babydoll9799 (talk) 18:43, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

No, you do not get it. Here on Wikipedia we do categorise by locality within the city. The sources say Balmer was from West Derby, so we categorise accordingly. You repeatedly removing the precise category for a more general category, for no reason other than you do not like it, is disruptive, and the fact that you still cannot understand that (and that you have also clearly misunderstood what Trey Maturin says), is concerning. Competency is required and you do not seem to have any. GiantSnowman 18:44, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

I find your attitude stinks. You disregard anything I have stated, insult me and insult my editing. Calling in to question competency is very low indeed. I have given several pointers to where I am editing from. I even have the humility to admit that I got it wrong with this because in 1875 West Derby was not yet absorbed in to Liverpool. But you continually offer insults and point scoring. How very admirable. Babydoll9799 (talk) 18:57, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

I have not insulted you; I have criticised your editing, as have others. You now admit you are wrong - so the criticism was appropriate - but why have you not self-reverted and restored the correct edit/information? Also you seem completely unwilling to listen or learn... GiantSnowman 19:03, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@Babydoll9799, please take some time and review our verifiability policy and category guidelines. While you're at it, you should also read up on BOLD, revert, discuss and how to use Talk pages. Wikipedia is a collaborative project, so there's no such thing as minding my own business when you're being disruptive. Woodroar (talk) 19:13, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Woodroar now on the bandwagon. So I am being disruptive am I? Rubbish. I had a point and someone disagreed we've spent the day back and forth but guess what? I am not the one crying to other people to rat me out. I admitted my error on this specific edit but that does not mean I am either wrong or disruptive. I made my points quite clear the that my point was about the city as opposed to the district within the city. I have not been disruptive I have stood my ground as someone that knows Liverpool perhaps less so Wiki. So less of the insults please. Babydoll9799 (talk) 20:08, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, you are being disruptive. Your argument boils down to "I'm from here, so I get to decide how everyone else from here is described", which is not how Wikipedia or anywhere else works. And you're edit warring to get your way. Your replies here aren't formatted correctly and others are cleaning up after you. Look, I don't know you and I'm reading about this dispute for the first time, so I'm trying to be neutral here. Please take my advice to step back and read our policies and guidelines. Woodroar (talk) 20:38, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Bingo. Babydoll9799, this is not a "bandwagon", this is consensus - multiple editors agreeing, and advising you how to edit. However, you are ignoring everyone and our policies/the sources, and viewing it as being personally targeted against you, which it is not. Please just listen to us and take on board our comments. GiantSnowman 20:45, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

I don't know anything about UK geography but I was wondering why we're seeing so many empty "People from..." categories at Category:Empty categories awaiting deletion and I guess this is why, at least for some of the categories. Right now, it looks like 24 categories have been emptied (which is not how editors are supposed to empty categories, they should be nominating them for deletion at WP:CFD). And there's a bit of edit-warring over at the Billy Balmer article. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:48, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@Liz: - yes, this editor has made lots of these kind of edits over the last few days, removing valid categories from articles, resulting in an empty category (see this and this and this as some examples beyond the ones already detailed above - I think there have been over 100 in the east 48 hours) - as well as the disruptive editing/edit warring when editors like me have challenged the behaviour. GiantSnowman 20:53, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

I am very angry at the accusations being made by GiantSnowman. Making me out to be disruptive. Bringing my edits in to question. Witch hunt comes to mind. All I have tried to do is correct the pages for where people are from in the Liverpool area as they are from Liverpool (city) not district. I have given examples and yet you're getting on my back about this. Babydoll9799 (talk) 21:05, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

But everybody here is saying that your edits were wrong and that your editing was disruptive. Do you not understand that? do you still think, after all these comments, that removing the categories is correct? GiantSnowman 08:54, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I have just noticed that this user has been canvassing, see this and this and this. They clearly do not get it and are not willing ti listen/change - their disruption will simply con tinge because they are so convinced that they are in the right and that all criticism is personal. GiantSnowman 09:01, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• My view on this is that if Babydoll continues to make these changes going forward, they ought to be blocked. The canvassing linked above is definitely poor form, but also quite obviously ineffective so it doesn't really concern me. What does concern me is these 350 edits over the past year (although about 300 of them are from the past three days) that all seem to either remove categories, or otherwise change geographical details (e.g. in infoboxes), and many are still the current revision. What are we doing about those: leaving them? Reverting them? Anyone want to go through them all and check? (I don't, and also I don't have the knowledge of UK geography to know if they're good or bad.) Personally I'd support mass reversion because about 300 of them are from the past three days. Levivich 15:47, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Given the clear issues raised here and shared by the community, I suggest a mass revert. GiantSnowman 17:42, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

+1 on the mass revert. — THIS IS TREY MATURIN 17:38, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Extensive vandalism

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ persistently vandalizes the page Opinion polling for the next Greek legislative election by constantly placing logos that are not allowed to be placed. I will ask an admin to block as it is dangerous this user as he did not do it once but 3 times this thing and it has become tedious to constantly undo either me or other users his vandalism.[191] --Derzki (talk) 18:45, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm confused as to why this article exists in the first place. It's just an aggregation of existing poll data, not an encyclopedic article. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:12, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Derzki, here's a radical idea: try speaking to this user on their talk page before escalating here (where you did no notify them per this board's instructions). El_C 19:14, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Spamming on my talk page

Hello. Throughout the last year or two, several anonymous editors have posted nonsensical messages repeatedly on my talk page. Although most of the messages have just been mildly anonying, in the history of those most recent messages, you'll find they are reverted as being spam, vandalism, or personal attacks. The latest such attempt was posted in this revision. The recurrent spamming of my talk page and/or personal attacks can be verified and corroborated in every respect by ChristensenMJ, Meters, and FormalDude. I am not sure at this point whether a request to protect my talk page would be in order, but these repeated spam messages and personal attacks are very much interferring with my capacity to get anything meaningful done here on Wikipedia outside of monitoring my talk page. Any recommendations you have for me would be appreciated. Thank you. --Jgstokes (talk) 20:11, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/GeraldFord1980. Sro23 (talk) 20:38, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Long-term trolling of your talk page by throw-away accounts justifies protecting it. Link to an unprotected talk page and you can still be contacted by unconfirmed editors (and any unwanted garbage there can be quietly ignored until you feel the urge to clean it out) Meters (talk) 20:55, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Attended to this by way of RfPP (permalink — Roxy the dog, woof alert!). Will follow up. El_C 09:27, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Two requests regarding Emigré55

First request: WP:IBAN between myself and him

Hi! Over the past few weeks the interactions between him and I have been of contentious, personal, and aggressive character so I am seeking an IBAN. Another possibility that might be suitable here is a topic ban for both of us. I cordially invite JBchrch to pitch in, they have been invaluable in mediating between us two and helped me realized when I had crossed the line when interacting with Emigre55. I know you wanted to avoid an IBAN but I just want to forget about Emigre and be done with this.

On my side

I have been disrespectful to him in multiple cases:

• diff here with my apology diff here
• diff here with my apology diff here
• possibly here
• diff here

On his side

He has been disruptive while responding to my edits in this case:

• removing better source tags without providing a better source, refusing to seek consensus,

The following diffs refer to either his general conduct in the talk page or main page of the Article on Eric Zemmour, which should be taken into context when dealing on this matter. Aggresive wikilawyering: Perhaps this characterization is not the most accurate for all the diffs and another way of qualifying the disruptiveness (as I see it) of his edits listed below, but I leave that up to others to comment.

• See here, here, here, where bringing the issue to the talk page would have been the best move, here, unnecessarily detailing WP policies, here, here, here

WP:Hounding:

• Wikipedia:Closure_requests#Talk:Éric_Zemmour#Request_for_comment_on_the_description_of_Eric_Zemmour's_ideology I am claiming hounding here as the only way I can see him finding this link is by watching my contributions. Note his wording "I noticed ..." here. If I am wrong on this point, I will quickly retract this accusation.

Second request:

I don't have a specific request, I just would like for editors reading my submission here to take into account other instances of his disruptive editing to either other users or other pages. Munci,Hemiauchenia feel free to contribute if you see it necessary. Other ANI-related discussions in the past: October of last year, October of last year, this month, August last year, September last year, Discussion in his appeal to the block given to him mentioned in previous diffs, July of this year.

Final comment:

I might have not followed the WP procedure for creating this page discussing the incident, in that case I apologize in advance as my only previous experience in ANI was with this unresolved incident (which I think got resolved after I asked for the relevant pages to be semi-protected). A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Talk 20:30, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

As to the first request:

1/ On accusation: “He has been disruptive while responding to my edits in this case:

• removing better source tags without providing a better source, (...) “''

Contrary to what is claimed with this diff, where it can also be seen that I announce it in the commentary of the diff ("→‎International relations: see following sentence and ref"), I have provided 3 citations and a source immediately after this revert, here.

• (...) refusing to seek consensus",

Contrary to what is claimed with this diff, I have not refused to seek consensus:

I have first answered her question, and stated, as precisely as I could, the reasons why I thought/think that there is “undue weight” in the § in discussions.

Furthermore, I have then, with the last sentence of my edit, asked a question: “Please, explain if you see another way to improve neutrality and also undue weight of the whole section relative to the whole article”. Question which remained unanswered by Santacruz. She then only answered: “Well, I disagree Emigré55".

It appears to me that, by only answering then that she disagreed, and not answering my questions and/or suggestions on how to reduce undue weight, she decided to leave the debate on that particular point, which was hence closed “de facto” by her without the search of a further consensus on her side.

2/ On accusation of “Aggressive wikilawyering":

• I have always tried to explain precisely what I understand from the rules, citing them and mentioning what and how is pertinent to the case or the point in discussion. E.g., here, and here again:

Particularly on « undue weight », « So, rephrasing my question could be: What to do to correct the "depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, juxtaposition of statements" of the first sub section, which is presently given an "undue weight", because of them ? », I do not understand why this can be qualified as «aggressive wikilawyering», having patiently rephrased my question and further asked how to make the article better in her opinion, following the rule as explained. Here again, I also received no answer to my question.

I have also never been «aggressive» , no example is even given on this point.

3/ On WP:HOUNDING:

I have never "joined discussions on multiple pages or topics (she) may have edit(ed) or multiple debates where (she) contribute(d), to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work". Since September, I ONLY contribute to the Eric Zemmour article, which can be easily verified.

Furthermore, the rule states that "the contribution logs can be used in the dispute resolution process to gather evidence to be presented in incidents and arbitration cases".

In my opinion, the first request is hence based on accusations against me lacking all merits.

Reading WP:HOUNDING, I noticed that it also states that "Using dispute resolution can itself constitute hounding if it involves persistently making frivolous or meritless complaints about another editor."--Emigré55 (talk) 02:16, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

As to the second request:

• WP:NPA states here: « It is as unacceptable to attack a user with a history of foolish or boorish behavior, or one who has been blocked, banned, or otherwise sanctioned, as it is to attack any other user. »
  
• Also, I do not understand what is the request, with several diff given “to be characterised” or assessed by others, what appears to me, for lack of a better word, as “cherry-picking”, or approaching this practice.
  
• If a request is not characterised, I think that this “claim” should be dismissed, as being unduly brought.

Emigré55 (talk) 07:28, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

As to the Final Comment:

Finally, I would like to add that I have introduced the sections on Zemmour's political ideas at the end of September, somewhat reorganised them, waiting for others to bring input, which did not happen. I started then, slowly, carefully, to improve and substantiate them, as they should be more important than controversies, as was and still is the case now in this article.

Since September, on an article which was/still is to a large extent (before I started patiently editing it) heavily biased, breaching neutrality as well as balance and BLP rules, not to mention lack of content on the real substance of his political and economic ideas, I have contributed 261 edits, 57,4% of all edits, or 31,4% of the article by added text.

Becoming, to my surprise, the first contributor to this article.

By contrast, A.C.Santacruz appears to have made 3 edits, and appears to rank n°36 among all 266 editors.

See statistics of the article, here:

Top 10 by edits:

Emigré55 · 261 (57.4%)
ActiveContributor2020 · 45 (9.9%)
Hemiauchenia · 36 (7.9%)
Philip Cross · 24 (5.3%)
JBchrch · 20 (4.4%)
Steve Smith · 18 (4%)
Causteau · 16 (3.5%)
MB · 15 (3.3%)
Munci · 11 (2.4%)
Xiaopo · 9 (2%)

Top 10 by added text (approximate):

Emigré55 · 45,979 (31.4%)
BrownHairedGirl · 37,083 (25.3%)
Xiaopo · 27,324 (18.7%)
ActiveContributor2020 · 10,791 (7.4%)
Munci · 7,033 (4.8%)
Steve Smith · 6,899 (4.7%)
Malaria28 · 5,513 (3.8%)
Hemiauchenia · 2,246 (1.5%)
Causteau · 1,852 (1.3%)
JBchrch · 1,656 (1.1%)

--Emigré55 (talk) 07:27, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Response to Emigré55's retorts

1. Disruptive also means to disregard other editors' explanations for their edits, such as you did here. On refusing to build consensus, such is your endless arguing ad nauseam that other editors have told you to stop WP:BLUDGEON.

2. On wikilawyering, i especially refer to the section describing it as "brandishing Wikipedia policies as a tool for defeating other Wikipedians rather than resolving a conflict or finding a mutually agreeable solution". You frequently wave the name of NPOV around to back your own claims while forgetting that we are all biased and thus need consensus to find the best way to show information on this project. In the discussion I linked about Zemmour's trials section, I proposed here to change the section from a he said/she said type structure to a chronological one in order to encourage less bias. You not only disagreed, but then disregarded my proposed solution. I realized that anything short of exactly whatever you were asking (perfect partiality suiting your bias) would not be enough for you and just left the discussion. You were, in my opinion, not suggesting solutions as much as brandishing WP:WEIGHT and WP:DUE to shut down other editors in the discussion from proposing solutions and finding common ground.

3. You justify your watching my contribution log as being useful to "dispute resolution process to gather evidence to be presented in incidents and arbitration cases". However, what dispute resolution or arbitration case are you referring to where you needed to gather evidence on my actions? Why was it necessary for you to complain against me asking for a neutral editor to judge the discussion?

4. Why are you trying to use statistics on the contribution of the article here? What does that have to do with anything? A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Talk 09:10, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

You presented your arguments in your initial 2requests/complaint. I presented then mine in response to your accusations, which, as I have shown with diffs, have no merit in my opinion.

I think there are enough arguments for an admin to make a decision, if needed.

You seem to further want to argue, with this "response" to my previous statement. I don’t think it is necessary to further argue here:

• Either on your side as you just did above, because you seem to be willing to extend the dispute to new grounds, thus escalating the dispute you started before.
• Or on my side, although I would have precise arguments to answer you, because I do not wish to fuel such escalation.

I will therefore not answer you, unless an admin finds it useful and/or asks me to do so.

Thank you for your understanding.--Emigré55 (talk) 11:53, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

A._C._Santacruz, it's inappropriate for you to link to editorial processes on the article talk page in a footnote! Those are only intended for sources and/or explanatory notes about the content. El_C 15:14, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Also, it's inappropriate to invoke that RfC for anything, seeing as it's still ongoing. You need to wait till it concludes before consensus or lack thereof can be asserted in connection to it. El_C 15:26, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Wait, I just noticed this. Your edit summary says: Edited page based on closed RfC (diff) — but it hasn't been closed. Okay, now I'm confused. El_C 15:32, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

El_C See [192] and subsequent [193]. JBchrch talk 15:47, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Eep. El_C 16:31, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I thought that since no one had talked in the RfC in 3 days, and with it being open for over a week with only one editor disagreeing w consensus on far-right it was safe enough for me to close, my bad on that. JBchrch instructed me on how to do it properly and I thus filed the closure request. I'll take into account in the future not to link talk pages on efns. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Talk 19:08, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Survey

• Oppose. As A._C._Santacruz noted, I sort of attempted to moderate the disputes between the two editors. I have ostensibly failed, but that's beyond the point. In my view, there's nothing here that reaches the intensity required for administrative action. As Arb Dennis Brown recently said at WP:AE "some heat is expected in contentious areas, and is tolerated by the community". Both editors just need to take a chill pill, and either drop the WP:STICK in relation to the disputes they are involved in, or seek WP:DR. They should both be trouted upside the head for their agressive demeanor over the last week and their consistent failure to de-escalate (maybe A._C._Santacruz should be trouted a second time for this ANI request), given some Tylenol, and sent on their way. JBchrch talk 15:44, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

JBchrch, Dennis Brown is not an arbitrator. El_C 16:33, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks El_C. Calling every admin an arb is my way of networking with the admins. JBchrch talk 17:05, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Appears unnecessary. Granted, I've only taken a cursory look, but if you were rude, but have the good sense to apologize, and the other party doesn't want a iban, and both have been rude to each other.... then go do something different for a while. I'm not trying to be overly simplistic, but maybe that should be tried first. Wikipedia has no deadline. We will get by if you don't edit in that area for a time. You have the power, use it. I say this because I do not like ibans, and my history of using the admin bit has been filled with TOPIC bans and extended mutual blocks instead, refusing to support ibans in virtually all circumstances. As an admin, my goal isn't "justice", it's about finding a solution that benefits everyone, not just you two. There are plenty of other areas that can benefit from your efforts, just go do something else for a while, will you guys? Chill out, and figure out how to get along, because an iban isn't something I'm likely to support. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 21:39, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Page protection requests for Greater Manchester articles

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I've been seeing unhelpful and opinion using changes by used https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Zynthetik#Your_edits.

They claim use of human settlement in England is bland boring and unhelpful. Calling his edits suburbs of Manchester because they border the city are correct and not in the wrong. I think other editors and admin might want to look at it.

He has been reverted multiple times but repeats the same offenses committed.

DragonofBatley (talk) 20:31, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@DragonofBatley, In summary you want the article protected right? Then you may want to visit WP:RFPP. Celestina007 (talk) 21:09, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rrmmll22 is edit-warring in violation of WP:BLP policy

See this article history: [194] A clear and unambiguous violation of WP:BLPPRIMARY. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:46, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

User:Parkjenmin

Parkjenmin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

The user is engaging an edit/move war at Sudra Kingdom and has moved the article thrice this week against consensus [195] @SpacemanSpiff notified of DS/ipa sanctions [196] The user's latest post [197] (Hindi in English) is just a hatred post (first sentence: Why do you all people have so much hate against Yadavas?) The last sentence reads that he won't be back in WP which is full of hatred. The user is clearly here for a POV push and a "cleansing". Requesting ARBIPA enforcement and moving on, even if the user self-proclaims no-return. — DaxServer (talk) 21:12, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

RegentsPark move protected the page. Might as well see if the user returns before taking further action. El_C 00:34, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Sucker for All

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Sucker for All (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This has gone on long enough. No one could be this obtuse. —valereee (talk) 21:37, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Hmmm, not a lot to go on there :) We're not all familiar with the user, we're going to need a bit of background. Pawnkingthree (talk) 21:47, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm also confused about the specific accusation. Since blocked from namespace, I have argued that Carley Shimkus and Draft:Ashley Strohmier should be wikipedia articles. All of my other edits have involved carefully reinstating relations with every user with whom I have disagreed with in the past. Sucker for All (talk) 21:50, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

(ec) your claiming that editors are misconstruing policy and that you know policy better than more experienced editors and are displaying WP:IDHT when told otherwise. Lavalizard101 (talk) 21:53, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

I literally cannot even figure out where to begin to explain. We have Draft:Ashley Strohmier, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Carley Shimkus, the circle jerk incident, Drmies fun times, previous unblock requests that show no understanding, ongoing arguments that leads should never have zero citations, you name it, it's there. I suspect we're being trolled, because no one could be this obtuse and still be able to spell. —valereee (talk) 21:58, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@Pawnkingthree I think the best thing to do is to look at the recent contributions history. This editor is in need of guidance on the concept of Wikipedia:Notability coupled with Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources but appears to be unwilling or unable to accept that guidance when given with care Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 22:00, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

The editor has had guidance on all of those things but still is arguing that press releases are evidence of notability. —valereee (talk) 22:02, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@Valereee Indeed they have. I fear it may be time to offer that guidance with a more persuasive approach. Normal dialogue appears to fail at this point. Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 22:05, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

The thing I know SfA from is History of the Jews in Antwerp and its associated talk page, where I was less than impressed. I had reverted this edit based on not-good sourcing (after they and Drmies had been engaged over similar edits to that article. The talk page discussion wasn't ideal--the edits were pretty much textbook SYNTH, and using some very idiosyncratic interpretations of the text of the source to support it. It's not the sort of thing I would consider block-worthy on its own, especially since they're not still pursuing it, but as part of a pattern, it's not a good data point. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 22:09, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

This is obvious trolling in my view; I agree no one is that obtuse. They're just pretending not to understand these policy issues. Indef and revoke tpa as an ordinary admin action to prevent further wasting of editor time. It's an WP:RBI situation IMO. Levivich 22:27, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

I disagree. Speaking as someone who isn't quite on the autism spectrum, but who has known a couple of people who said that they were, and who has followed some lengthy ANI threads, it is perfectly possible for someone to be apparently obtuse yet completely sincere. Trolling requires deliberate intent. Disruption, however, is disruption, and a timesink whatever the motive. Narky Blert (talk) 23:25, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@Narky Blert, how do we help someone who is problematic become a net positive? —valereee (talk) 23:31, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@Valereee: I wish I knew; I agree that it's the best outcome. Carrot and stick? but I'm no psychologist. A very senior and highly-respected mod on another site admitted that he'd started out as a troll, but got bored with that and decided to become a productive user instead. I could (but will not) name a WP editor who I suspect is on the spectrum who was given a helluva shock within recent memory, and now seems to be doing useful work. Narky Blert (talk) 23:45, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

• It appears that partial blocking has not worked and they are just being a timesink. They should be indef blocked site-wide until they can come up with a convincing unblock request. Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:30, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

• No one could be this obtuse. Um, have you fuckin' met me? Erm, blocked indef. See User_talk:Sucker_for_All#Indefinite_sitewide_block. El_C 23:13, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

No, we think you're rather acute. RickinBaltimore (talk) 23:20, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Word overuse alert! El_C 23:23, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Not sure we should be calling them cute. ;) —valereee (talk) 23:27, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

I think El_C is right. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 00:35, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

He's Shawshank'd us for the last time! Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 10:11, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

El_C 10:55, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

They were already indeffed from a userpage per this discussion: [198]]. Later this was expanded to article space also and it has not mitigated the disruption. Frankly if we cannot trust an editor to edit articles then the only reason to keep them here is the hopes that one day they will be trusted, but this is not seeming likely. Sadly I don't see this user justifying the time they are consuming. I support El C's action here. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 05:16, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the support, HighInBC. Sorry, what userpage are you referring to? El_C 10:53, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Sorry I misread Future Nostalgia in the block log, for some reason it seemed like a username. In fact it would be a good username... dang I already have one. HighInBC ^{Need help? Just ask.} 11:17, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Future Perfect at Sunrise we hardly knew ye! El_C 11:34, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm still wondering why someone who claims to be a Jewish man who has "integrated" himself into the Jewish community of Antwerp is also a fan of Fox News anchors and a POV editor of various right-wing topics. Glad to see them indef-blocked. Drmies (talk) 15:14, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I do not watch Fox News, but from what I know they firmly support Israel, and there was a lot of progress in foreign relations concerning Israel under Trump - which is not expected during the Biden administration. More generally, world history seen and written by Jews looks very different from what we used to learn at school.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:10, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

@Drmies: From Vlaams Belang (Belgian far-right party, probably to be situated to the right of Trump): Currently the party sees itself as strongly pro-Israel, regarding Jews and Israelis as allies against radical Islam. In Antwerp, sections of the city's large Jewish community actively support the party, as they feel threatened by the new wave of anti-Semitism from the growing Muslim population. In Europe, neofascism expresses itself mainly through islamophobia. It's very widespread, not wholly unlike the antisemitism of 1930s Europe. Scary stuff. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 20:58, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

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Chipmunkdavis

Sock doing sock things. Nothing to see here. --Blablubbs (talk) 12:34, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
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A user named Chipmunkdavis is constantly removing this edit on Mass racial violence in the United States, which included the Chinese massacre of 1871 as well as the Rock Springs massacre. This kind of erasure of history is just...something else. Their articles are literally aptly named "massacres".— Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.75.102.32 (talk • contribs) I have protected the page so that you can not continue edit-warring. The text was added by a sock of Ineedtostopforgetting and you are likely another one of their socks.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:06, 31 October 2021 (UTC) I also blocked the IP. El_C 10:50, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

User:Nyxaros

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Nyxaros keeps reverting edits on Eternals (film), and Dune (novel), using expletives to justify reverts, using insults and an aggressive tone with other editors and insulting myself. I'm not the best at english but that was a low blow and it's starting to make me feel a little unwelcome here. deity 14:00, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I've already agreed that my wording was a bit harsh in a sentence or two because you kept reverting and didn't provide a valid reason and annoyed me, and I apologize, but removing multiple sources, and adding generalizing / summarizing sentence to the lead without various references and gaining a consensus is not okay. Writing implausible edit summaries is a plus. This editor is clearly disruptive editing and is now trying to hide their actions and misrepresent the situation. ภץאคгöร 14:08, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Maybe, sure--yes, sure harsh language; Nyxaros, it's not helpful. But Triosdeity, the command of English set aside, there is no good justification for this--you're cutting The Atlantic and Time but you're letting Metacritic stand? Come on now. Masem, thanks for your continued work on that article. Drmies (talk) 15:31, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, they initially removed Metacritic too and said that I did "unexplained revert" as a reason, they seem to make similar contributions to other articles including Eternals (film). ภץאคгöร 18:26, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

@Drmies Its the Wikipedia guidelines? deity 23:50, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Apparently this user also got into an argument with another user today because of their edits. ภץאคгöร 11:03, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

You can stop stalking now. deity 11:39, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Stalking? Admins would eventually bring your edits and bad attitude here anyway. It isn't called stalking. It is called, as pointed out by @Adolphus79:, a discussion showing "final warning". How long will you continue with your baseless accusations and try to hide your actions? Aren't you the one who looked at my contributions page and followed my edits on the Dune (novel) page after the incident on Eternals (film)? Anyone can see who is the "stalker" here. ภץאคгöร 12:25, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Wow. A sock of User:Nyxaros2? Creepy... ภץאคгöร 12:50, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

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User:Gadariya Sarkar

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Gadariya Sarkar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Based on the latest post at a talk page [199] and posts on the user's own talk page and own user page, the user is clearly here for promoting [their own] caste. I don't think any encyclopaedic would ever come out from the user. — DaxServer (talk) 15:15, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Note that I had already reported as a promotion-only account to AIV. ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 15:43, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

And the posts are also hoaxes, or otherwise not credible. I endorse an indef for NOTHERE. JavaHurricane 16:57, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Blocked as WP:NOTHERE.--RegentsPark (comment) 17:18, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

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IP deletes my talk page messages

This IP has deleted my talk page message as seen here. A poor son of Adam (talk) 19:26, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

They are allowed to remove talkpage edits that are attacks or soapboxing - given your behavior, I don't blame them. Your declaration that you are using a :"fake account" draws my interest: please explain what you think you're trying to do. Acroterion (talk) 19:45, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Need Some Help With Possible Copyright Infringement Issue(s)

I had a look back through my logs the other day because I like to make sure if/when stuff reappears its not as it was when it got the axe. Going back to 28 April 2020 I found the article Carolyn Rodriguez had been recreated...and then saw that it got the axe for being a COPYVIO. I went digging and with some effort managed to trace the article back, and it seems this new version is still copyright: here is the article at the time (it was userfied) and the one with the copyright box at the top, then compare that to the current version Carolyn I. Rodriguez, and you'll see it reads remarkably similar. Moreover, if you look at the history of both articles ([200], [201]), you'll see no move log, suggesting a copy past.

A look through the contributions of the creating editor, one Microglia145 (talk · contribs), shows some of the articles s/he are creating are being created as massive text groups (some at or near 20,000 characters), which on its own doesn't prove anything (we've all had moments where working on an article meant getting it just right and then posting massive texts into the article mainspace, and that includes me too), but when you consider the above discovery and then look at the pages (like this one) one gets the feeling that perhaps they may be paraphrasing a little too closely here. Before I or anyone else takes any official action though I would like some feedback here: Am I imaging things, was this simply a case of coincidence, or does this look like an account generating material a little too close to copyright status? TomStar81 (Talk) 22:18, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• Confirmation that the user has been notified of this discussion. TomStar81 (Talk) 22:19, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• There was a bit of copying from this source which I've removed from the article, but if you're referring to the Earwig tool's 79% match to [202] (which is what that now-userfied draft was G12-tagged with), that results from matches to publication titles and the names of various awards and institutions. DanCherek (talk) 22:41, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

~~ Hi there, thank you for bringing this to my attention. I wanted to message to let you know that when I was creating pages #onedayonewoman I was writing them in Google docs and then entering them as one into a page. It was easier for me this way as I could work on it a little bit during the day on my google doc, and then finish and submit each night. I can see how this might look like copyright, but I can assure you that I spent many hours each day during 2020 making these pages for women, learning about their scientific careers as deeply as I could, and then trying to cover their notability in an honest way. I tried to cite each sentence as well to make sure that no problems occurred in terms of copyright. For Carolyn's page, my order of her awards was in the exact same chronological order as it was on Stanford's website, and this is why I got flagged for copyright in that case. When I amended that part of the page, I just removed the awards I thought were not as notable. In this case, I am not sure what else I should do and I welcome opinions and comments in terms of how to do better in the future. I am a relatively new member to the Wiki community and I am still learning and welcome advice. I do want to make sure though that the community is aware that I am not trying to commit any illegal acts, I was just trying to use my time in COVID quarantine to improve representation of women on Wikipedia. I hope this makes sense and I am so sorry to have caused concern and worry in this regard. 00:29, 1 November 2021 (UTC) Microglia145 (talk) 00:30, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

I would agree with DanCherek that this is seemingly a false positive regarding earwig. @Microglia145: You're fine; just try to avoid doing cut & paste moves per Template:Uw-c&pmove.
Regardless, I have now tagged the article to fix that. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 06:37, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

NPA issues, possible harassment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Armament of the Iowa-class battleship

Self reporting for my behavior at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Armament of the Iowa-class battleship, to include possible violations of WP:NPA, failure to abide by WP:AGF, possible WP:CIR failures, and depending on how you choose to define it harassment of Andrew Davidson (talk · contribs), Dream Focus (talk · contribs), and Dronebogus (talk · contribs). Reporting myself because I feel that editors in general and admins in particular need to be held accountable to the community, to include accountable for actions on and off the article space, or as I put in my userspace, "Be thou for the contributors." TomStar81 (Talk) 22:26, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

• No worries. Nominating an FA for deletion is not a normal process and so it's naturally uncomfortable for us all. I once took a tour of the USS Missouri and still recall being impressed by the size of the shells which were stacked up on the deck. In the good old days, people actually used to fire these things at each other so we should count our blessings. Andrew🐉(talk) 23:34, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
• There are a few other people who should be composing a mea culpa in that discussion. I note that after the first expressions of outrage, there is now a more measured discussion concerning what is appropriate for the encyclopedia according to policy. Acroterion (talk) 00:59, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• I agree the temperature looks like it's gone down a lot here, so blocking at this point wouldn't help. If it stays on the track it's on now, that's fine. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:17, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree that if you weren't such a productive editor you'd probably have been blocked for "Don't gimme this "snow keep" bullshit when its overwhelming clear none of you even bothered to read the damn thing, nor have you put any meaningful thought into your keep votes. Try again, gentlemen, and this time try not to embarrass yourselves by getting giddy over the bronze star, shall we?". I think it's pretty great on your part to want the same standards applied to all Wikipedians regardless of status and it's even more amenable to offer yourself up as a martyr for such. At the same time though you really weren't that bad during the deletion discussion itself and you seem to be overstating the gravity of your WikiSins.

I would suggest that a better method of dealing with your guilt would be writing an informal apology of some kind on the affected editors' user talk pages; rather than starting an AN/I thread & leaving the rather impersonal AN/I template. Chess (talk) (please use {{reply to|Chess}} on reply) 02:19, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@Chess: Even if they weren't "that bad" I do not want to foster a perception that I'm one of those "untouchable" or "unsanctionable" editors on site. We've seen how the community struggles to deal with people like that, and the end result is usually either omnipotent apathy (no one every does anything and thus the offender is empowered/embolden) or a catastrophic nuclear incident (along the lines of WP:FRAMGATE). Trying to reign myself in here is an effort to allow others to weigh in on the matter by acknowledging that I helped to power this thing whether I wanted to or not. In this case, if I were on the other end and bring this here, I wouldn't block, but I would demand a shot across the bow at the very least since the five pillar include AGF and civility, neither of which were demonstrated early in the discussion, and if I was on the other side I'd similar expect to be reminded that simply because its a featured article doesn't make it an untouchable article, if its afd its at afd for a reason, so reading the article and the nominator's rational (however brilliantly or poorly phrased) to understand why its there should be within the realm of common sense under the BRD method since the goal is consensus and it can't be obtained if two parties dig in and fortify. TomStar81 (Talk) 11:21, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Dtobias at Talk:Irreversible Damage

Dtobias (who signs comments as *Dan T.*) has been chronically violating WP:NOTFORUM with commentary at Talk:Irreversible Damage, and accusing other editors of bad faith. Since multiple attempts to resolve the issue has failed, I feel I have to go to ANI. Diffs follow:

The conduct I take issue with starts on October 1 with Dtobias' creation of a new section with the comment that The terminology "Assigned Female/Male At Birth" embeds the ideology this book is criticizing in the article about it. It is nonsense as an "objective" statement of fact; biological sex is not "assigned" by anybody (doctor or Sorting Hat), it is observed, often well before birth. The only exception is for extremely rare intersex conditions where the sex is ambiguous. After several replies by other users, Dtobias commented that "observed" should be used instead of "assigned" because it would make more sense. But that wouldn't accomplish the ideological objective of forcing everybody to think of it as if it's an arbitrary assignment instead of a biological fact. At this point, I replied and noted that Dtobias had been involved in previous discussion of the same issue on the same talk page and had even used the same reference to the Sorting Hat, a clear appeal to ridicule. I asked them to stop repeating the same argument and accusing unnamed editors of having an ideological objective. However, Dtobias continued to make comments that used the talk page as a forum while adding nothing constructive to the discussion, and in one comment that was relevant to the discussion put scare quotes around the term gender identity.

Around this time I left a message on Dtobias' talk page asking for a change in behavior, and after Dtobias commented a couple of days later that Anybody who uses biased terms like "TERF" and "transphobic dog whistle" has absolutely no business judging what constitutes NPOV on this subject I left another message pointing out that Dtobias' behavior was uncivil and an assumption of bad faith. Dtobias replied accusing me of applying double standards, so I explained why I didn't think a double standard was being applied, and asked a question to which they did not reply. I was subequently asked by another user to message Dtobias again, at which point Dtobias commented on my talk page and expressed an intent to stop participating in these discussions. However, just today Dtobias made another comment on the article talk page, this time linking to a self-written and tangentially relevant essay (Wikipedia:Sauce for the goose is (not) sauce for the gander) and commenting that (Incidentally, the thing that distinguishes a goose from a gander is, of course, biological sex, but it's a "transphobic dogwhistle" to say so!)

This user's WP:NOTFORUM violations, assumptions of bad faith, and general conduct at Talk:Irreversible Damage makes me doubt their ability to contribute constructively on the talk page in question. Honestly, it makes me doubt their ability to contribute constructively within the gender topic area as a whole. I apologize for my lack of concision – I tried to keep this post short but I felt some explanation was necessary. ezlev (user/tlk/ctrbs) 01:57, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Diffs in chronological order, in case my commentary above is overwhelming or unwelcome for anyone:

[203], [204], [205], [206], [207], [208], [209], [210], [211], [212] ezlev (user/tlk/ctrbs) 02:01, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Comment I don't want to read that whole talk page, and won't judge anyone without doing so. However, I will point out that arbitration enforcement might be a better venue for this complaint. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 02:06, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

  I completely agree with that. WP:AE has its purposes, and this is one of them (seeing as made Dan aware of the DS/regime almost 2 months ago now). –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 06:28, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Going to arbitration about a few possibly slightly snarky comments I made would seem to be vast overkill. *Dan T.* (talk) 02:32, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
• I'll also strongly dispute an assertion that I am unable to constructively edit in that topic, since I've avoided any edit warring there, taking things up in the talk page as I'm supposed to. It's a very ideologically charged topic, and I'm hardly the only one there who shows some leanings in their comments, but I'm not going to inject it into the actual article without consensus. *Dan T.* (talk) 02:39, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
  • I’m willing to assume a degree of good faith, but even “slightly” snarky comments are inappropriate for a highly sensitive subject, and mostly come across as an attempt to pick fights and make trans Wikipedians feel unwelcome. Dronebogus (talk) 15:48, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

User:PoWaiFung again

PoWaiFung (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hi admins, this is the second time, I'm filing this report after previously one here, as PoWaiFung clearly couldn't bother to care about following guidelines on not to overcite. I have previously tried communicating to user couple of times as mentioned in the first report filed previously, user was also informed by User:bonadea previously as only bonadea replied to the previous report. But guess what, just 5 days ago, the same thing happened again [213] by adding 32 sources reporting the same news. I believe temporary blocking should be issued to user to give them a wake up call, speaking to user doesn't yield much result and fell into deaf ears. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 04:31, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

User:S0cksonmyfeet

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S0cksonmyfeet (talk · contribs) is busy socking away and making a general nuisance of themselves. I've blocked multiple socks, but I'm now going to step away for a bit. I suspect this is a frequent offender making a return, but can't spot the pattern. If other admins can keep tracking them, I'd greatly appreciate it. -- The Anome (talk) 05:59, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@The Anome: This is Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Raxythecat. The usernames and vandalism related to chaos magic are dead giveaways. 192.76.8.77 (talk) 07:10, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

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help would be welcome

Hi I’ve been involved in a two separate debates on the talk page of The Battle at Lake Changjin involving editors who appear to lack basic knowledge of the encyclopedia’s policies. Specifically the debates I am referring to can be found here [214] and [215] For the sake of trying to not escalate the dispute unnecessarily I will not be naming the editors nor accuse them of doing anything specific as we are talking and in the process (however slowly) of trying to resolve the disputes. Having said that any input or oversight especially from experienced editors would still be welcome in order to ensure that the dispute resolving process goes as smooth as possible. I had previously requested help on the NPOV noticeboard [216] but found the response their to be lacking particularly when compared to this one so that is why I’ve come here asking for help. Thanks in advanceEstnot (talk) 07:48, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Estnot, The dispute resolution noticeboard may have been a better bet than the NPOV one. Curbon7 (talk) 07:56, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Regarding Kingdom of Wolaita

On 12 December 2020, I started to write this article on my draft, Draft:Kingdom of Wolaita. But the contributor, @Ella Lachow, ignored the WP notice and started to write the article that I am contributing to. This contributor can contribute to the existing draft page, but intentionally he/she ignored it. I need the administrators attention to this issue. - Yitbe ^A-21 09:21, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) So somebody beat you to the punch? That is what you want administrator attention for? Kleuske (talk) 10:52, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Well, as an admin, I can tell you the first thing you need is images. Is there a map image or something of that nature so we can see where it is? Also, photographs from the place would be good. And you could deal with the citation needed tags in the infobox as well as the last section concerning wars, which is presently no cited at all. Otherwise there is little we can do save but for to remind you that "he who hesitates has lost" :) TomStar81 (Talk) 11:12, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

For further clarification, unless Ella Lachow used some of the content from the draft page, there is no real reason why they had to re-use the draft page to create the article. And the draft page is so short plus partly contradicts the information in the new article so I suspect the content from the draft page wasn't used. Also if the article they created was quickly developed so it was sufficient to exist in mainspace, there's no requirement that they must use the draft space. In other words, it doesn't seem they did anything wrong. Nil Einne (talk) 11:52, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Is that article not a copyvio Earwig? That website (gijash.com) appears to be copyrighted, so it would appear, could someone confirm? Black Kite (talk) 15:08, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Looks like definite copyvio, Black Kite. I stripped out the copyvio, which doesn't leave much left. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 17:30, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

DrewWill2021 and the seventeen sandboxes

DrewWill2021 (talk · contribs) has created 17 sandboxes, most of them fake articles about alternative versions of events, songs, or films. Some of them seem plausible at first glance, but I have checked most of them and can't see that any of them is anything other than a hoax. Some examples: User:DrewWill2021/EddsWorld about an upcoming film (written by Drew Williams, screenplay by Drew Williams); User:DrewWill2021/sandbox12 about another film, also written by Drew Williams and starring Justin Bieber, Selena Gomez, and a dozen other well-known names; and a bunch of pages about made-up past or future versions of the Eurovision Song Contest and other singing competitions, e.g. User:DrewWill2021/sandbox, User:DrewWill2021/sandbox2, and User:DrewWill2021/sandbox5. Then there are some sandboxes with tables, like User:DrewWill2021/semi-final, presumably relating to some alternative version of a contest.

I asked DrewWill2021 about the sandboxes two days ago, here, but they haven't answered – they have created yet another sandbox about a fictitious film, though, and made other edits to some of their other sandboxes. They haven't been very open to discussion in the past, see Special:Diff/1041938834, and from their edits there is a bit of a language issue as well, Special:Diff/1039885971. Oh, and see also this Teahouse thread. I could tag the sandboxes per U5 and G3, but as there are so many of them, I wonder if they could be mass deleted instead. --bonadea contributions talk 13:10, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Some of the logged-out edits are worse, and there's at least one sock puppet account that added outright hoaxes to mainspace articles. I blocked indefinitely, and I'll mass-delete the sandboxes. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 15:56, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

This IP address 115.178.210.186 and other IP started 115

This IP user is always been adding an unsourced edits, keeps adding the airline and destinations at the page of Soekarno–Hatta International Airport

[217] (This is the page history of Soekarno Airport that edits)

(Below edits are 115.178.210.186 and other IP started 115) [218], [219], [220], [221], [222], [223]

I already give warning to that IP but still continue to disruptive edit.Cornerstone2.0 (talk) 16:50, 1 November 2021 (UTC)