Talk:History of the Jews in Antwerp

Jewish antwerp site seeing?

levherz@aol.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.249.166 (talk) 21:25, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

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"approximately 15000 of its residents following this religion"

@Writ Keeper:, explain your deletions. One source clearly says 15k of Antwerp's citizens follow this religion, and the other clearly says anti-Semitic attacks are on the rise. You're deleting sourced information and replaced it with nothing to back up your claims that the information was false. A clarification would be appreciated Sucker for All (talk) 16:51, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/antwerp-population says The city is also a significant center for people of the Orthodox Jewish faith, with approximately 15,000 of its residents following this religion (emphasis added); it specifies Orthodox Jewish, not all forms of Judaism. https://dbs.anumuseum.org.il/skn/en/c6/e174834/Place/Antwerp says In the early 2000's there was an increase in physical attacks on Jews and Jewish property especially by members of the Arab immigrant community of Antwerp, but it does not say that these attacks caused a decline in the Jewish population--in fact it doesn't say the Jewish population declined at all.

This is textbook synthesis, a form of (prohibited) original research where one smushes two sources together to make a statement that is not explicitly supported by either. You have a source that says A and a source that says B, but the statement that you want to add is that A happened because of B; if you want to add that, you need a source that explicitly states "B caused A". It is not enough to prove B and A; you need to prove B caused A--in this case, that the rise in attacks on Jewish people in Antwerp caused a decline in the Jewish population. (And, to be clear, I think your interpretation of the source with regard to the 15,000 figure is faulty.) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:11, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

To be clear, the exact quote of world population says people "following this religion" aka Judaism, not this denomination, which would indicate Orthodox Judaism, so I would like additional input as to whether you are misreading the statement. While "due to" might be construed as WP:SYN, it certainly is not OR, since the statements are clearly sourced. Perhaps "in light of" would be better phrasing, and I am of course willing to compromise when discussing wording. But I am alarmed that you deleted a legitimate source, with more up to date information than is currently present in the article. Here are two sources showing that Orthodox Judaism is considered a "denomination", not a religion.. https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/jewish-denominations-orthodox-judaism-1.5390932 https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-jewish-denominations/ Sucker for All (talk) 16:24, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

If you need to quibble over the definition of "denomination" vs. "religion", then you're already trying too hard to interpret meaning in the source that's not there. If we are to use that source to cite 15,000 as the population of the entire Jewish community, it should say so explicitly. As it is, it is ambiguous at best, and as such is not a good source for this statement. Do you have any others? (Also, synthesis is a subset of original research; if a statement constitutes synthesis, it is by definition original research.) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 16:53, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Not quibbling. Judaism = a religion; Orthodox Judaism = a denomination. So it does say specifically that 15000 Jews currently are in Antwerp. Sucker for All (talk) 17:13, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

That's not how English works. The antecedent to "this religion" is "Orthodox Jewish faith"; if it were "the religion as a whole" or even just "the religion", I *might* see your point, but "this religion" is very specific that it is referring back to the "Orthodox Jewish faith" that was discussed earlier in the sentence. And indeed, it would be bizarre to change the subject of the sentence in teh second clause; if the figure it gives referred to Judaism as a whole, there would be no reason to refer to specifically Orthodox Judaism in the first clause. You're making the sentence artificially disjoint.

Although generally speaking, you are of course correct that Orthodox is a denomination of Judaism, it is not incorrect to refer to "the Orthodox Jewish faith" as a religion, even if such usage is technically metonymous. Such a construction is used in the article about Orthodox Judaism (Like other traditional, non-liberal religions, Orthodox Judaism considers...); the article on Lutheranism (the first article I checked at random), which is a denomination of Christianity, uses the construction in the lede (During the Reformation, Lutheranism became the state religion...) and elsewhere. You are interpreting that statement artificially to lead to the conclusion you want. You will need a better source, that unambiguously discusses Jewish people as a whole, to support this statement. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:58, 7 September 2021 (UTC)