Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation
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AFC backlog
[edit]![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/66/AFC_unreviewed_draft_statistics.svg/400px-AFC_unreviewed_draft_statistics.svg.png)
Random article sample sizes
[edit]![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Number_of_sentences_per_article_at_the_English_Wikipedia.png/220px-Number_of_sentences_per_article_at_the_English_Wikipedia.png)
Fun fact: The most common number of sentences in a Wikipedia article is two.
Half of articles have between 5 and 29 sentences. More than 10% of them have just one or two sentences (usually two). WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:29, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- Well that depressingly low! KylieTastic (talk) 11:25, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Given how many complaints I see about "all those mass-created one-sentence substubs", these numbers are actually higher than I expected, but maybe my perspective is being skewed by the discussion about Wikipedia:Notability (species), because species articles skew a bit more heavily on the short side (25% have exactly two sentences). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:11, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
- Would it be useful to have more information along these lines? @BilledMammal has kindly created a sample article set, and we've been looking at what it can tell us about Wikipedia's current content.
- For example: the 50% of articles in the middle (i.e., from the 25th percentile to the 75th percentile) have these ranges:
- 123–782 words
- 5–29 sentences
- 2–9 refs
- 12–46 links
- Each of these numbers is being calculated separately, so there's not necessarily a single article that has (e.g.,) 338 words + 13 sentences + 4 refs + 23 wikilinks to other articles; it's that when you look at refs alone, regardless of anything else, half the articles have between two and nine refs (with a median of 4). Also, these are refs that the query can currently detect, so it's likely including a few explanatory footnotes and makes no attempt at identifying whether the sources are reliable, independent, etc. It also misses citations that don't use <ref> tags/other detectable elements. And a slightly different group has 5–29 sentences, and a slightly different set has 2–9 refs, etc. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:04, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Assigning WikiProjects to Articles
[edit]When I accept an arti0cle, the script asks me to assign it to WikiProjects. Sometimes the originator has already assigned WikiProjects to it in draft. Sometimes I know what WikiProjects the new article should be assigned to. But sometimes I am simply not familiar with the WikiProjects in the area. If I am not familiar with the categories in the area, as I usually am not, I tag the article with {{Improve categories}}, and gnomes are requested to assist by assigning the categories. Will the category gnomes also assign WikiProjects? Is there a way to tag a new article to request WikiProject assistance by gnomes? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:20, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Probably. Some (even here) would argue that tagging WikiProjects is unnecessary, and some are insistent that every page needs to be assigned to a WikiProject. If you can't think of who would want to be "assigned" a draft, don't feel obligated. There aren't any temples to request a WikiProject or to add a project template, but there are some people who relentlessly (or in the case of Ser Amantio, using an unregistered bot account) add WikiProjects, so it will likely be picked up by someone. Primefac (talk) 18:22, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Somewhat related - the AFCH script isn't playing nice with the new format of the wikiproject talk page banners and is generating a lot of ugly errors if multiple wikiprojects are added. If there isn't a ticket open for this on phab already, someone ought to start one. -- asilvering (talk) 18:51, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Does one of these tickets describe the issue? https://github.com/wikimedia-gadgets/afc-helper/labels/draft-talk-page-wikitext –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think it's this one: [1]. Here's an example of it from one I accepted recently. -- asilvering (talk) 19:20, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's the primary one, but I will say that all of those are inter-connected issues that have cropped up over the years as the banner format and ideology has changed. I suspect a fix for one will likely include fixes for most if not all of them. Primefac (talk) 19:48, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Posted this as a separate thread... and only then read the above convo. When the submit wizard adds WikiProject tags to the draft talk page, these seem to be newly causing red error messages, see eg. Draft talk:Tony To Chin. The message asks for the banner shell to be added, and the ratings to be applied to the shell. I vaguely remember seeing somewhere that this was changing, so it could be the wizard needs updating to comply with whatever the new practice is? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:23, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- See Module talk:WikiProject banner § Warnings. I personally disagree with this change, and am fighting it. You are welcome to participate (or not) in the discussion, but just note that I am not necessarily advocating anyone do so (and they should probably mention that they were pointed to that discussion by me).
- That being said, yes, there is a ticket to update the wizard (along with a half-dozen other WPBS-related updates), see the link by Novem above. Primefac (talk) 11:41, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
- We really do need this project either to update the obsolete script or to stop using it. You have been given fair warning and plenty of notice about the changes in the assessment process... — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- I started an update tonight. It's located here. Comments welcome. I'll leave it open for a few days for code review. Please ping me in a few days to remind me to merge and deploy it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:25, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm glad this is being worked on. In the meantime, I think it crosses a line for MSGJ to be reverting the AFCH edits that produce these warnings (see Talk:Thomas F. Baumert for instance). Warnings are warnings, someone needs to fix them not revert them and sweep them under the rug. It is fine to feed the gnomes while this gets sorted. If the reviewer doesn't do the cleanup after a revert like this, information they added to the article during the accept is likely lost. ~Kvng (talk) 13:43, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed, removing valid projects and details because they are not in the current preferred formatting is ridiculous and if a new user did this they would be getting warnings for vandalism or disruptive editing. The new warnings do make it ugly as, but removing rather than fixing is disruptive that than constructive. WP:PIQA is about having a single assessment, it does not give any validity to remove other information in those banners. Surprised though that a bot had not come along and fixed up before the revert anyway. KylieTastic (talk) 14:22, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- It looks like Qwerfjkl (bot) was approved to do these fixups, but looking in it's logs I can not see it doing it anymore. I only checked a few 1000 edits, I tried an edit summary search for "Task 26" but keep getting 502 bad gateway. Qwerfjkl should this be running, and should it have fixed up the AFCH tools bad formatting before it annoyed MSGJ? KylieTastic (talk) 14:50, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed, removing valid projects and details because they are not in the current preferred formatting is ridiculous and if a new user did this they would be getting warnings for vandalism or disruptive editing. The new warnings do make it ugly as, but removing rather than fixing is disruptive that than constructive. WP:PIQA is about having a single assessment, it does not give any validity to remove other information in those banners. Surprised though that a bot had not come along and fixed up before the revert anyway. KylieTastic (talk) 14:22, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'm glad this is being worked on. In the meantime, I think it crosses a line for MSGJ to be reverting the AFCH edits that produce these warnings (see Talk:Thomas F. Baumert for instance). Warnings are warnings, someone needs to fix them not revert them and sweep them under the rug. It is fine to feed the gnomes while this gets sorted. If the reviewer doesn't do the cleanup after a revert like this, information they added to the article during the accept is likely lost. ~Kvng (talk) 13:43, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- I started an update tonight. It's located here. Comments welcome. I'll leave it open for a few days for code review. Please ping me in a few days to remind me to merge and deploy it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:25, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- We really do need this project either to update the obsolete script or to stop using it. You have been given fair warning and plenty of notice about the changes in the assessment process... — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think it's this one: [1]. Here's an example of it from one I accepted recently. -- asilvering (talk) 19:20, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Does one of these tickets describe the issue? https://github.com/wikimedia-gadgets/afc-helper/labels/draft-talk-page-wikitext –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- Somewhat related - the AFCH script isn't playing nice with the new format of the wikiproject talk page banners and is generating a lot of ugly errors if multiple wikiprojects are added. If there isn't a ticket open for this on phab already, someone ought to start one. -- asilvering (talk) 18:51, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
- ┌──────────────────────────────┘
KylieTastic, Cewbot runs on these pages (pinging operator kanashimi). — Qwerfjkltalk 15:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC)- Thanks Qwerfjkl, if so that bot appears to be active adjusting those so probably just backlogged. Can you update User:Qwerfjkl (bot) page to show Task 26 as inactive. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 16:15, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
AFCH WikiProject banner patch is deployed
[edit]Seconds ago I went ahead and deployed an AFCH patch that fixes 6 outstanding bugs related to the wikitext that AFCH writes to draft talk pages. These bugs all involved how AFCH wrote WikiProject banner code. Details can be found here. This patch will take effect in 10 minutes after the gadget cache clears.
Please keep an eye on your draft talk diffs for a couple days for any problems. This was a complete rewrite of that part of the code, so new bugs may spring up. I would appreciate it if you could report diffs of bugs here. This is also a good time for me to work on these types of bugs while I have this particular code top of mind.
This patch should hopefully resolve the problems MSGJ is encountering. Thanks all. –Novem Linguae (talk) 13:00, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Good work Novem Linguae. I have been having quick looks at the code changes but not done a full review. It appears to be working so far example. KylieTastic (talk) KylieTastic (talk) 13:59, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm, there's a blank |class= in that diff. Let's see if this fixes it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:11, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes it did - see this KylieTastic (talk) 14:19, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm, there's a blank |class= in that diff. Let's see if this fixes it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:11, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- This is looking great. Thanks for your work on this — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:09, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- You're a hero. -- asilvering (talk) 15:46, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
|1=, moving up the WPAFC banner, OKA
[edit]- Hey Utopes. I see you adding |1= to some of the talk pages, and moving up the WPAFC banner on some of the talk pages. Are these edits necessary? If I am missing something let me know. I can always code AFCH to do these edits for you, if it is worth the effort. But it's my understanding that |1= isn't needed, and the order of WPAFC isn't too important. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:14, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Force of habit a bit, I've always had WPAFC as the first banner on a talk page among all the WikiProject banners (as that's often the most "relevant" towards the lifecycle of the draft-to-article). It felt (and still feels as of now) odd to see a WPAFC banner tucked between two other banners for content/material-related WikiProjs. So I've always ensured it's listed first, as it contains vital info about the status of the page when it was a draft, and useful for audits and etc. If that's not built into the gadget, that'd be a personal recommendation of mine to incorporate.
- Per Template:WikiProject banner shell#Parameters, "1=" is the parameter name so if I'm making multiple edits to the banner shell I tend to throw that in there too, adds a bit of clarity towards which param is which. I find it helpful, but it might not be for everyone, which is fair. Utopes (talk / cont) 22:28, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Since the AFCH banner has always (to my knowledge) been placed at the top, I think it's probably helpful if the revised script keeps doing that, since that's where people will look for it. Won't make much of a difference for most articles, but it will for those articles that have half a dozen wikiprojects on them. -- asilvering (talk) 22:38, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds good. Just now I patched and deployed both putting WPAFC on top, and adding |1=. I also tweaked the edit summary, and {{OKA}} is now added to the banner shell. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:09, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Novem Linguae: Fwiw the "1=" bit might not be super important in the grand scheme; I'm willing to align to whatever most banner shells use (with or without the "1="). That aspect is more on the cosmetic / aesthetic side so if nobody else is putting that on there, I won't either.
- Thanks for the prompt response though, and for prioritizing WPAFC at the top of the shell! o7 Utopes (talk / cont) 23:14, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Speaking of OKA though, I think I had a situation (at Talk:Katowice Załęże railway station, particularly) where there was a WP banner (AFC), followed by a translated-page template, followed by an OKA banner. I left all of the other banners alone due to the new functionality of the gadget, but would the AFCH capture all of that into the shell, or select only from a list of "approved" banners to shell-ify? Utopes (talk / cont) 23:18, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- I spot checked about 8 articles and about half had |1=, and it made the shell more readable when the shell had a lot of parameters, so I decided to include |1=. I also checked around 5 OKA banner articles and about half had it in the shell, so I decided to write AFCH to include it in the shell from now on. The shellify algorithm grabs any template that starts with WikiProject, Football, or OKA, and I may add more to this list as needed. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- If it matters, the OKA template is a wikiproject template, as part of WP:ITW. -- asilvering (talk) 23:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Speaking of OKA though, I think I had a situation (at Talk:Katowice Załęże railway station, particularly) where there was a WP banner (AFC), followed by a translated-page template, followed by an OKA banner. I left all of the other banners alone due to the new functionality of the gadget, but would the AFCH capture all of that into the shell, or select only from a list of "approved" banners to shell-ify? Utopes (talk / cont) 23:18, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds good. Just now I patched and deployed both putting WPAFC on top, and adding |1=. I also tweaked the edit summary, and {{OKA}} is now added to the banner shell. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:09, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Since the AFCH banner has always (to my knowledge) been placed at the top, I think it's probably helpful if the revised script keeps doing that, since that's where people will look for it. Won't make much of a difference for most articles, but it will for those articles that have half a dozen wikiprojects on them. -- asilvering (talk) 22:38, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- I deployed again just now. Please keep an eye out for bugs. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:27, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Double decline notices
[edit]- I just got an odd one - double decline notices this KylieTastic (talk) 17:16, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Looks unrelated, but still always good to spot and report a bug. I went ahead and filed https://github.com/wikimedia-gadgets/afc-helper/issues/377. –Novem Linguae (talk) 18:19, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I just got an odd one - double decline notices this KylieTastic (talk) 17:16, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Auto-detected classes
[edit]- Please note that the banner shell does not like non-article classes (e.g. [2]). A genuine disambiguation page will be detected automatically and doesn't need any value in
|class=
. In this case, it was a set index article, so|class=list
was appropriate. Thanks — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:40, 2 September 2024 (UTC)- Hey @MSGJ. What change do you recommend I make? At the moment the script user can pick from the following options. Should I delete some of these? Which ones? B, C, start, stub, list, disambig, template, redirect, portal, project, NA –Novem Linguae (talk) 17:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- Could you restrict to the 9 standard grades on Wikipedia:Content assessment? I guess FA/FL/GA/A is unlikely or impossible for a new article so that leaves B, C, start, stub, list only. All the others are detected automatically — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:56, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
Done. Thanks for reporting the bug. –Novem Linguae (talk) 04:07, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Could you restrict to the 9 standard grades on Wikipedia:Content assessment? I guess FA/FL/GA/A is unlikely or impossible for a new article so that leaves B, C, start, stub, list only. All the others are detected automatically — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:56, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- Hey @MSGJ. What change do you recommend I make? At the moment the script user can pick from the following options. Should I delete some of these? Which ones? B, C, start, stub, list, disambig, template, redirect, portal, project, NA –Novem Linguae (talk) 17:29, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
- Please note that the banner shell does not like non-article classes (e.g. [2]). A genuine disambiguation page will be detected automatically and doesn't need any value in
WikiProject Musician
[edit]- Many thanks Novem! Next issue - I don't know if you can do anything to improve this. When you add Musicians (example) it auto converts to Biography with
|musician-work-group=yes
(like this). If Biography was already there, then we now have a redundant banner which needs fixing — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 17:47, 3 September 2024 (UTC)- I can't see how we can fix that as the issue was all post AFCH. We should have added the "WikiProject Biography" and the issue was first adding "WikiProject Musicians" without removing the now redundant "WikiProject Biography" (but an understandable editor issue). The main issue is with AnomieBOT that should have removed (or combined) the "WikiProject Biography" when converting the "WikiProject Musicians". Certainly should be logged as a bug but this one requires AnomieBOT to update not AFCH. Caveat: unless for some reason there is a magic parameter we can add to the first "WikiProject Biography" that makes AnomieBOT work later, but that would be obscure. 17:57, 3 September 2024 (UTC) KylieTastic (talk) 17:57, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I suppose AFCH shouldn't be placing WikiProject Musicians separately in the first place. — Qwerfjkltalk 18:37, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, my mistake I didn't notice that the update was also AFCH! Yes, so AFCH could fix the issue of conflicting WikiProjects. Although, AnomieBOT should also have been able to fix when change "WikiProject Musicians" to "WikiProject Biography" with musician-work-group=yes. KylieTastic (talk) 18:43, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- KylieTastic, well, all AnomieBOT is doing is auto-subst:ing the template. It doesn't know whether there's supposed to be multiple or not. — Qwerfjkltalk 18:53, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- That's not an AFCH issue. I wouldn't expect an AFCH reviewer to know that {{WikiProject Musicians}} is a subst-only wrapper for {{WikiProject Biography}}, and thus I see no reason to implement a change that (if I am reading this correctly) would prevent someone from attempting to do so. We do have a bot-updated list of WikiProjects which is used to suggest WikiProjects to reviewers, so hopefully this was a short-term issue that will be resolved the next time the project list is updated (assuming these are being placed due to the suggested tags by the tool). Primefac (talk) 23:54, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, I didn't see your reply just now so I wrote a patch for this here. This patch is invisible to the AFC reviewer. The reviewer can still pick WikiProject Musician and WikiProject Biography. The only difference is that AFCH with this patch would silently fix/consolidate the talk page wikicode. This is a bit of a corner case but is easy enough to fix. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:34, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Novem, the issue is that this isn't the only subst-only WikiProject banner. Genuinely out of curiosity, are you going to hard-code exceptions for every one of these templates? Primefac (talk) 00:39, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- I could only find two. But yes, I did code exceptions for both of them in the above patch. –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:06, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Eh... fair enough. If it's done and it's short that's fine, just wanting to make sure we're not coding for an exception and missing the rule (and if it's not obvious, I really do appreciate the work you put into this project; I mainly don't want to see you doing more than necessary!) Primefac (talk) 10:28, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- I could only find two. But yes, I did code exceptions for both of them in the above patch. –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:06, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Novem, the issue is that this isn't the only subst-only WikiProject banner. Genuinely out of curiosity, are you going to hard-code exceptions for every one of these templates? Primefac (talk) 00:39, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- If that list is kept up-to-date then great. I have just manually edited to remove musicians but I expect this may be overwritten by the bot. I'm wondering how the bot knows which banners are valid and which are not (Ahecht?) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:34, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- See the WikiProject_templates.json/blocklist.json needs admin or template editor perm to add. KylieTastic (talk) 07:51, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Or it could be WikiProject_templates.json/config.json as that also has a blocklist KylieTastic (talk) 07:53, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- From the code User:Ahechtbot/wikiprojects.js it looks like Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/WikiProject templates.json/config.json is the configuration it uses rather than blocklist.json KylieTastic (talk) 08:56, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Adding in an exception seems like a better (and more robust) solution than having to update the core module every time this sort of thing happens. Primefac (talk) 10:28, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds good. Looks like Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/WikiProject templates.json removed WikiProject Musicians and I removed WikiProject Sportspeople, removing these two problematic templates from being able to be selected on the accept screen of AFCH. If Ahectbot doesn't readd these in 4 hours when it makes its daily edit, we should be good. I'll go ahead and abandon my patch to help keep the code in AFCH simpler. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:28, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Novem Linguae, KylieTastic, MSGJ: I added Musicians and Sportspeople to the blocklist (which, as you figured out, is at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/WikiProject_templates.json/config.json), so the bot shouldn't re-add them on the next run in a couple of hours. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 02:54, 8 September 2024 (UTC)- @Ahecht. Does this edit need to be reverted? I thought we had decided to keep these off the list. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:21, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- No, it need to be kept to "keep these off the list". It is an edit to add them to the blocklist as the bot auto detects the wikiprojects and then uses that file to add a few that are not auto-detected (I assume as they have a / character in the names), but also removes/ignores the ones in the blocklist. KylieTastic (talk) 14:42, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Ahecht. Does this edit need to be reverted? I thought we had decided to keep these off the list. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:21, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Novem Linguae, KylieTastic, MSGJ: I added Musicians and Sportspeople to the blocklist (which, as you figured out, is at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/WikiProject_templates.json/config.json), so the bot shouldn't re-add them on the next run in a couple of hours. --Ahecht (TALK
- Sounds good. Looks like Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/WikiProject templates.json removed WikiProject Musicians and I removed WikiProject Sportspeople, removing these two problematic templates from being able to be selected on the accept screen of AFCH. If Ahectbot doesn't readd these in 4 hours when it makes its daily edit, we should be good. I'll go ahead and abandon my patch to help keep the code in AFCH simpler. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:28, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Adding in an exception seems like a better (and more robust) solution than having to update the core module every time this sort of thing happens. Primefac (talk) 10:28, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- From the code User:Ahechtbot/wikiprojects.js it looks like Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/WikiProject templates.json/config.json is the configuration it uses rather than blocklist.json KylieTastic (talk) 08:56, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Or it could be WikiProject_templates.json/config.json as that also has a blocklist KylieTastic (talk) 07:53, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- See the WikiProject_templates.json/blocklist.json needs admin or template editor perm to add. KylieTastic (talk) 07:51, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, I didn't see your reply just now so I wrote a patch for this here. This patch is invisible to the AFC reviewer. The reviewer can still pick WikiProject Musician and WikiProject Biography. The only difference is that AFCH with this patch would silently fix/consolidate the talk page wikicode. This is a bit of a corner case but is easy enough to fix. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:34, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- That's not an AFCH issue. I wouldn't expect an AFCH reviewer to know that {{WikiProject Musicians}} is a subst-only wrapper for {{WikiProject Biography}}, and thus I see no reason to implement a change that (if I am reading this correctly) would prevent someone from attempting to do so. We do have a bot-updated list of WikiProjects which is used to suggest WikiProjects to reviewers, so hopefully this was a short-term issue that will be resolved the next time the project list is updated (assuming these are being placed due to the suggested tags by the tool). Primefac (talk) 23:54, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- KylieTastic, well, all AnomieBOT is doing is auto-subst:ing the template. It doesn't know whether there's supposed to be multiple or not. — Qwerfjkltalk 18:53, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, my mistake I didn't notice that the update was also AFCH! Yes, so AFCH could fix the issue of conflicting WikiProjects. Although, AnomieBOT should also have been able to fix when change "WikiProject Musicians" to "WikiProject Biography" with musician-work-group=yes. KylieTastic (talk) 18:43, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I suppose AFCH shouldn't be placing WikiProject Musicians separately in the first place. — Qwerfjkltalk 18:37, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- I can't see how we can fix that as the issue was all post AFCH. We should have added the "WikiProject Biography" and the issue was first adding "WikiProject Musicians" without removing the now redundant "WikiProject Biography" (but an understandable editor issue). The main issue is with AnomieBOT that should have removed (or combined) the "WikiProject Biography" when converting the "WikiProject Musicians". Certainly should be logged as a bug but this one requires AnomieBOT to update not AFCH. Caveat: unless for some reason there is a magic parameter we can add to the first "WikiProject Biography" that makes AnomieBOT work later, but that would be obscure. 17:57, 3 September 2024 (UTC) KylieTastic (talk) 17:57, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
- Many thanks Novem! Next issue - I don't know if you can do anything to improve this. When you add Musicians (example) it auto converts to Biography with
Category
[edit]Category:AfC submissions by date/21 August 2024 has not been created at timè of writing — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- It has been created at time of viewing. Primefac (talk) 11:59, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- These are normally created by EarwigBot a couple of days in advance, but the bot appears to have halted as it has not edited since the 17th. KylieTastic (talk) 12:27, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've created User talk:The Earwig#EarwigBot might be down to hopefully alert the bot owner. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:51, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Fixed. Bot is back up. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
- I've created User talk:The Earwig#EarwigBot might be down to hopefully alert the bot owner. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:51, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
Detecting CV without Earwig
[edit]Earwig's Copyvio Detector had been crippled for several weeks now due to an issue with Google credit. How are you all getting your CV checks done? I've been running Earwig with the Use Search Engine option unchecked but is that good enough? ~Kvng (talk) 22:22, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, that's what I've been doing for the last couple weeks while the tool is getting worked on. I've also been manually copying and pasting strings of text into my search engine if I'm suspicious of a copyright violation that the tool hasn't picked up. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 23:14, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
AfC stats
[edit]Is there a way to see how many articles I've accepted/declined? I'm pretty sure I saw a website with that sort of data, but I've lost it.
Additionally, is there a way to see how the drafts backlog has shifted over time (through a graph)?
(Unrelated, but I think a backlog drive should be organized soon-ish. Just feels right.) LR.127 (talk) 19:48, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- If you're on WP:AFCP you can click the "reviews" link next to your name. NPR and Admins can also view their stats by going to https://apersonbot.toolforge.org/afchistory/?user=XYZ where XYZ is their username. We have had various backlog stats over the years but currently graphs is out of commission and we do not have anything running currently. Primefac (talk) 19:56, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
- As for a drive, a couple of months ago I might have suggested one, also, when we were hovering (IIRC) around the 3.5-4K mark. Since then, we've been slowly but consistently coming down, and now are at < 2.5K, which is okay, IMO. (If anything, we could benefit from a quality assurance initiative of some sort, to check how well we're all adhering to the 'rules'.) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 05:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- We're not getting yelled at (right now anyway) for either declining too many or accepting too much, so that's one QA metric to go by. Primefac (talk) 10:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Unfortunately the weekly stats stopped getting updated (because of the graphs issue) so I can't even do a manual graph to show the history trend. KylieTastic (talk) 11:10, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- At NPP, we got our backlog graph back up and running, by making our own bot and maybe also doing some data scraping using a Toolforge webservice. I also found Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Backlog chart/daily, which looks like a good format to plug into a bot, and which was turned off a few months ago but can be easily turned back on by editing User:MusikBot/CategoryCounter/Run. I'll talk to some tech people and see what I can do. Please ping me in a week if a nudge is needed :) –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:40, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Part 1 of getting our AFC backlog graph back is complete. @MPGuy2824 setup an off-wiki tool to track the # of unreviewed drafts each day, and this data can be consumed by a bot. https://npptech.toolforge.org/npp/data.php?type=unreviewedDrafts. Now I think @DreamRimmer is going to work on part 2 of this, getting a bot to place a backlog graph image and to update it frequently. This is similar to their BaranBOT task 3 so hopefully it won't be too much trouble. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:29, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- At NPP, we got our backlog graph back up and running, by making our own bot and maybe also doing some data scraping using a Toolforge webservice. I also found Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Backlog chart/daily, which looks like a good format to plug into a bot, and which was turned off a few months ago but can be easily turned back on by editing User:MusikBot/CategoryCounter/Run. I'll talk to some tech people and see what I can do. Please ping me in a week if a nudge is needed :) –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:40, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- As for a drive, a couple of months ago I might have suggested one, also, when we were hovering (IIRC) around the 3.5-4K mark. Since then, we've been slowly but consistently coming down, and now are at < 2.5K, which is okay, IMO. (If anything, we could benefit from a quality assurance initiative of some sort, to check how well we're all adhering to the 'rules'.) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 05:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
BRFA filed – DreamRimmer (talk) 16:09, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
Problem with terminology
[edit]At the Teahouse, a colleague recently gave the advice: "Rejected means stop, don't go on. Declined means it might be accepted with revision."
I'd love to know which dictionary makes this distinction. Or does it just exist in the minds of AfC reviewers? If so, please pick better terms, as the confusion between the two phrases quoted is a frequent cause of confusion among new editors commenting at The Teahouse and Help Desk. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:18, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- We've been using this wording since rejection was brought in to use in 2018. Yes, there is sometimes confusion about the terms, but it is easy enough to clarify as you just indicated above. Personally speaking, I find a much greater distinction between rejection and declination, where the former is a hard "you done fucked up" and the latter is more of a polite thing. Of course, this comes as a native English speaker; anecdotally most of the confusion seems to come from ESL speakers (and even more anecdotally, from India).
- As a minor point, coming in and insulting us straight off the bat is a really good way for us to get defensive; there are better ways to start a discussion. Primefac (talk) 11:46, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Actually, to answer your asinine question, Merriam Webster gives:
decline often implies courteous refusal especially of offers or invitations.
reject implies a peremptory refusal by sending away or discarding.
- So yes, there is a lexicological difference. Primefac (talk) 11:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- You're welcome to quote the insult you imagine I made, but meanwhile, I didn't say there was no difference in dictionary definitions; I asked which dictionary made the distinction which I quoted. I note you have no source for that. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- You know as well as I do that such a thing doesn't exist; the words are different, and have been used to mean different things by this WikiProject for six years now. The fact that one user has come up with (in my opinion) a short and simple way of remembering those differences does not mean they are wrong. Primefac (talk) 12:47, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- "used to mean different things by this WikiProject" Indeed. This is exactly the problem which I seek to resolve. You've already acknowledged that "there is sometimes confusion", and that there is cultural bias in the jargon being used. You have advanced no argument (except, perhaps one equating to "we have always done it this way") why the status quo offers more benefits than does fixing the issue. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:52, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- That's mostly because I wasn't trying; that is not how you phrased your initial post and not what you appeared to be looking for. Primefac (talk) 12:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- "used to mean different things by this WikiProject" Indeed. This is exactly the problem which I seek to resolve. You've already acknowledged that "there is sometimes confusion", and that there is cultural bias in the jargon being used. You have advanced no argument (except, perhaps one equating to "we have always done it this way") why the status quo offers more benefits than does fixing the issue. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:52, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- You know as well as I do that such a thing doesn't exist; the words are different, and have been used to mean different things by this WikiProject for six years now. The fact that one user has come up with (in my opinion) a short and simple way of remembering those differences does not mean they are wrong. Primefac (talk) 12:47, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- You're welcome to quote the insult you imagine I made, but meanwhile, I didn't say there was no difference in dictionary definitions; I asked which dictionary made the distinction which I quoted. I note you have no source for that. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Actually, to answer your asinine question, Merriam Webster gives:
- Primefac, I think asinine is too strong a word, although your defensive response is understandable. User:Pigsonthewing, it seems like the confusion is on your end because you don't quite grasp the AFC process and terminologies. Instead of asking for clarification or seeking help to understand the terms, you jumped to conclusions with your question, implying that the phrases in question only exist in the minds of AFC reviewers. Really?To clarify, "rejection" as it was already explained by Primefac, applies to drafts that are not notable and will not be for the time being, or falls under WP:WWIN to thr sight of God and man, and it's given no option for resubmission except in rare cases of re-review. "Decline" means the draft fails to meet the WP:AFCSTANDARDS. Perhaps, hed suggest that the decline message should exclude Teahouse as where to ai question about the decline to avoid all this confusion, as some editors from there seem to misinterpret AFC wording and try to favor unintentionally non-notable drafts in the name of fighting for new cheated editors. Next time, please ask questions instead of making assumptions or final conclusions. Cheers! Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 12:24, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- There is no confusion on my part, and no assumptions. I fully understand the process; having both submitted articles via AfC and reviewed and rejected and published others' submissions. The confusion is experienced - frequently experienced, as I said - by the people to whom I referred; not least the individual to whom the quoted advice was given. But thank you for confirming my point, that the distinction is internal to AfC. That, no doubt, is why it is often misunderstood by people new to it, and why less ambiguous phraseology will benefit all concerned. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC).
- If you have an alternate suggestion, I'm all ears (and yes, this is a genuine statement, not sarcasm). Primefac (talk) 12:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Find an alternate phrase instead of "Declined"; one which actually relates to what is being done - maybe "Referred for further work". I'm not precious about the exact phrase, nor clear whether a single-word verb is needed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- This comes up semi-regularly but I've not yet seen a suggestion that gets more approval that the status-quo. "Referred for further work" along with similar suggestion is often criticised for suggesting that with further work it will get accepted which is often not true. Declined (or its replacement) has to say that it may or may not be acceptable with more work. Note that the notice posted on the submitters page does not even mention the word decline. The message on the submission does though but explains the issue - people just don't/won't read what it says. A lot of the time submitters ask why a submission was "rejected" when it was declined and I think regardless of what wording is used for a declined draft they will still see, and refer to it, as a rejection, which is what happened in this case. KylieTastic (talk) 13:45, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
"This comes up semi-regularly"
I'm not surprised. As I say, the confusion occurs frequently."criticised for suggesting that with further work it will get accepted"
Is there ever a case where an article is "declined" without a prose comment suggesting or implying that further work should be done? If not, the objection seems spurious."Declined (or its replacement) has to say that it may or may not be acceptable"
Isn't that the job of the prose component? The word "Declined" does not say that."A lot of the time submitters ask why a submission was "rejected" when it was declined"
This again reiterates my point - to most people, the two words are close synonyms. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:05, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think there's too much wrong with the terminology. Yes, it may be that it's no immediately obvious to a newbie, but then neither is the difference between 'page' and 'article', or that between AfC and AfD, or any number of terms of the trade. Until the meaning is explained to you, and then it's usually clear; it's called learning the ropes. Of the million things one needs to learn about Wikipedia, I don't see this one as a biggie. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 14:00, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- This comes up semi-regularly but I've not yet seen a suggestion that gets more approval that the status-quo. "Referred for further work" along with similar suggestion is often criticised for suggesting that with further work it will get accepted which is often not true. Declined (or its replacement) has to say that it may or may not be acceptable with more work. Note that the notice posted on the submitters page does not even mention the word decline. The message on the submission does though but explains the issue - people just don't/won't read what it says. A lot of the time submitters ask why a submission was "rejected" when it was declined and I think regardless of what wording is used for a declined draft they will still see, and refer to it, as a rejection, which is what happened in this case. KylieTastic (talk) 13:45, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- Find an alternate phrase instead of "Declined"; one which actually relates to what is being done - maybe "Referred for further work". I'm not precious about the exact phrase, nor clear whether a single-word verb is needed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- If you have an alternate suggestion, I'm all ears (and yes, this is a genuine statement, not sarcasm). Primefac (talk) 12:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
- There is no confusion on my part, and no assumptions. I fully understand the process; having both submitted articles via AfC and reviewed and rejected and published others' submissions. The confusion is experienced - frequently experienced, as I said - by the people to whom I referred; not least the individual to whom the quoted advice was given. But thank you for confirming my point, that the distinction is internal to AfC. That, no doubt, is why it is often misunderstood by people new to it, and why less ambiguous phraseology will benefit all concerned. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC).
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/AFC-Logo_Decline.svg/50px-AFC-Logo_Decline.svg.png)
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/Dialog-STOP.svg/50px-Dialog-STOP.svg.png)
- I have taken the liberty of improving the iconography on the reject talk page message to use the same more emphatic stop icon used on the draft page. This should help especially if this is an ESL issue. ~Kvng (talk) 15:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
In the two days since I raised the matter here, I have seen at east three more editors, at the Teahouse or Help Desk, who are confused by this issue. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:13, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Got any ideas for new terms? I can't think of anything better than decline and reject. Could change the two terms to "fix and resubmit" and "do not resubmit", but then those don't work well as nouns. "Your articles for creation submission has been tagged as 'do not resubmit'" is a bit of a mouthful. –Novem Linguae (talk) 13:24, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
""Got any ideas for new terms?
- Yes, answered above. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)- Is your proposal to change declined to "Referred for further work"? What do you propose changing rejected to? –Novem Linguae (talk) 03:58, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- Separately, I suggest unchecking Teahouse for editors whose drafts have been reviewed and declined/rejected. What they always ask is about their draft's review and ways to improve it. Both AFC helpdesk and Teahouse should re-examine the draft and corresponding decline or reject messages when providing feedback right? @Pigsonthewing, I understand your point, but my concern is that we need to focus on constructive guidance, such as giving additional sources, ways to delete peacock-promotional language, etc., rather than simply knowing whether a draft was rejected or declined. In this context, 'decline' is a more suitable term for not accepting a submission, whereas 'reject' comes across as more absolute and dismissive, implying 'this can never be accepted'. On another note, reject gives no room for resubmission while decline does, hence if one says their draft was rejected but actually, was declined, it isn't a problem. What they need is how to go further. It can then be a different case if it was actually rejected, then tell the editor that there is no room for resubmission with reasons. Is that a big deal? Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 13:28, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Philosophically, probably not a big deal, but I believe the concern here is that there is any confusion in the first place. I understand where Andy's coming from, but unless someone can come up with a more clear (but still as succinct) way of separating this "decline/reject" issue I think TEA helpers will just have to include the explanation in their answer. Primefac (talk) 13:37, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not so: some confusion is inevitable. The concern is that there is frequent - and avoidable - confusion. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Actually, I have a related question - how is this confusion dealt with? If someone comes to TEA with a declined draft and they say "my draft was rejected, help!" do they still receive help, or is the knee-jerk reply from the first helper "your draft was rejected you can't do anything about that"? Like... if someone says the wrong word, and the person helping them knows they used the wrong word, do they still try to give advice? Primefac (talk) 15:37, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- They get helpful advice, of course. First to clear up the confusion caused by the terminology, and then, to address the reason for the draft not being published. The former, in addition to being an unnecessary cognitive load on the new editors, is an unnecessary burden on Teahouse volunteers. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:49, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Actually, I have a related question - how is this confusion dealt with? If someone comes to TEA with a declined draft and they say "my draft was rejected, help!" do they still receive help, or is the knee-jerk reply from the first helper "your draft was rejected you can't do anything about that"? Like... if someone says the wrong word, and the person helping them knows they used the wrong word, do they still try to give advice? Primefac (talk) 15:37, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not so: some confusion is inevitable. The concern is that there is frequent - and avoidable - confusion. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
"'decline' is a more suitable term for not accepting a submission, whereas 'reject' comes across as more absolute and dismissive"
- to most people it does not, as I again addressed above. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:26, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Philosophically, probably not a big deal, but I believe the concern here is that there is any confusion in the first place. I understand where Andy's coming from, but unless someone can come up with a more clear (but still as succinct) way of separating this "decline/reject" issue I think TEA helpers will just have to include the explanation in their answer. Primefac (talk) 13:37, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- Andy, look at what I am saying: it's still not bad advising a rejected draft, it can help the editor and may not for the draft anymore. However, Teahouse is to help editors right? It serves as a general help guide to the editors to know what -and-what to do to the drat and subsequent articles. If someone says "my draft was rejected (though it was declined)", won't you help? If another says "my draft was rejected (though it was rejected)", won't you also help? At this point, I think it is not due for change because it serves as a general term out here: decline equals to reject. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 16:39, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't disagree with your former point; but the issue you discuss is not what I am talking about. Your last sentence, however, makes no sense, since AFC folk keep telling us that the two terms do have different meanings. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:51, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I was referring to what outside folk will think about: decline equals reject. I don't seem to find what you said is the best to replace. Can I see it here? Thanks. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 17:03, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- See what? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I was referring to what outside folk will think about: decline equals reject. I don't seem to find what you said is the best to replace. Can I see it here? Thanks. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 17:03, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- I don't disagree with your former point; but the issue you discuss is not what I am talking about. Your last sentence, however, makes no sense, since AFC folk keep telling us that the two terms do have different meanings. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:51, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia for Hailey Gordon
[edit]Hello, how would one go about requesting the creation of a Wikipedia page for an athlete? I’m interested in the wikipedia for Hailey Gordon- Mexico national team soccer player. 2605:C840:403:55D8:B97C:19CE:A6C:F050 (talk) 01:30, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- We don't really have an article writing service. (It's WP:RA but no one uses it.) Your best bet is to write a draft yourself using the article wizard. Before you start writing though, you should do a search for newspaper articles and/or books covering this player in depth. If such sources don't exist, then this player doesn't pass WP:GNG and won't qualify for an article. If you provide links to some sources, WP:TEAHOUSE can help with advice on whether or not this person passes GNG. Hope this helps. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:13, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Major article wizard malfunction on talk page
[edit]Adding talk page classification tags through the submission wizard adds them as plain templates without the shell, which immediately produced error messages as with this diff. Looking through recent submissions this seems to be affecting everyone. Orchastrattor (talk) 23:45, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
- cc SD0001. I think the fix is to wrap the banners in {{WikiProject Banner Shell|. I recently updated AFCH to do this. For coding simplicity, I even wrap single banners in the banner shell. –Novem Linguae (talk) 04:01, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- This is https://github.com/wikimedia-gadgets/afc-submit-wizard/issues/1 if anyone wants to implement. I'm not sure why the banners are emitting errors even when they have no class param specified. In the meantime, it looks they'll be automatically fixed by Cewbot. – SD0001 (talk) 07:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- See this discussion: despite being objected to, the change to make these errors show up still persists. Primefac (talk) 13:15, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- I imagine the goal of the error message is to reduce the # of articles in Category:WikiProject banners without banner shells that need manual cleanup. In that sense, the error message is probably working well. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:24, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- It is, but there's a bot that's sorting that stuff out. The huge error message is unnecessary, never mind the fact that it's not required (though I do recognise there is a growing consensus to use WPBS which I am happy to respect). Primefac (talk) 15:35, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- I imagine the goal of the error message is to reduce the # of articles in Category:WikiProject banners without banner shells that need manual cleanup. In that sense, the error message is probably working well. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:24, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think its because the templates automatically try to enter "draft" as their class, the diff I provided stopped showing errors once it was accepted and just moved into unclassified instead. Orchastrattor (talk) 17:32, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- See this discussion: despite being objected to, the change to make these errors show up still persists. Primefac (talk) 13:15, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- This is https://github.com/wikimedia-gadgets/afc-submit-wizard/issues/1 if anyone wants to implement. I'm not sure why the banners are emitting errors even when they have no class param specified. In the meantime, it looks they'll be automatically fixed by Cewbot. – SD0001 (talk) 07:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
A Template Foible
[edit]Please look at Draft:Comet C/2023 V4 (Camarasa-Duszanowicz) assuming it is currently unreviewed.
The bottom line in the yellow "Please review me" box says:
- "Warning: This page should probably be located at Draft:2023 V4 (Camarasa-Duszanowicz) (move)."
This has changed the word order of the (current) draft title, and removed the "/".
I'm not at all sure that this is important but it is worthy of mention.
If you happen to review the draft as well that works, too! 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 10:30, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- In other words, the / is causing it to think this is a subpage of 'Comet C'. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:43, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's a namespace check, which is supposed to be for when it's in a sandbox or other user subpage. See line 46 of Template:AfC submission/tools. Not sure the check in the draft space is strictly necessary (will think about it). Primefac (talk) 13:19, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
This is a different acceptance, and I'm happy to take your comments on it.
The draft appears to have been part of a student project that ended in April this year. No editors who edited it have been active since then. Declining it, as I did at first, was just going to see this go im six months as a G13
Since none of "the original team" appear to remain I decided to unroll a larger team - the community as whole. So I migrated the AFC comments I'd just left to the talk page and accepted it, tagging it for cleanup.
This leads me to the question I want to pose to you. Should we rip our way through the oldest drafts on this type of basis pretty much as a matter of course, pushing anything just better than the borderline up to mainspace with a detailed set of comments on what we feel needs to be done (unless we choose to do those things ourselves)?
If we took a few each every other day we'd probably not need another backlog drive! 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 20:02, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
- Since this is a likely WP:NPROF pass at AfD, I would have accepted (and tagged) it if I'd come across it, myself. But if you've got anything that looks both borderline and abandoned, and it's about anything related to women, I've had some great success posting short lists of that kind of thing at WP:WIRED. Also, many people on that project are real wizards when it comes to historical newspaper searches, so if no one there manages to find evidence of notability, I feel reasonably confident that no one else could, either. -- asilvering (talk) 22:08, 29 August 2024 (UTC)
12 pages in the unassessed AFC backlog remain up for grabs
[edit]...and from the moment of this writing, they may not be long for Wikipedia in the next how many weeks unless some action is taken. After I spent countless days grading hundreds and hundreds of articles in an ambitious, thankless one-man task--a few of which were never attended to since the early 2010s--it's time we finally discussed their chances for a change before it's too soon.
At press time, two in the backlog--Nathaniel Jenkins and Prateek Raj, both BLPs--are under scrutiny at AFD; no further comments on those. Anyway, on with the chaff we found within the wheat--listed alphabetically. (All have been tagged for {{notability}} unless otherwise noted; tag dates, and source-hunting links, are provided next to their titles.)
- 2023 World Seniors Darts Champion of Champions (April 2023) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- Abki Baar 400 Paar (June 2024; per talk page--but this might survive nonetheless) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- Alsace20 (September 2023) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- The Dream Wanderer (January 2019) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- Nanjing Week (November 2021) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- National Earthquake Hazards Reduction Program (November 2022) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- Rountree, Springfield (February 2019) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- ShipSpace (September 2016) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- Society of Classical Poets (November 2020) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- Soroush Cinema ({{local}}, April 2018) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- WDC UK Matchplay (February 2023) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
- John T. Wilson (born 1861) (October 2023) / Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
As an eventualist/incrementalist, I may be a bit sorry if they end up delisted. But these topics, diverse as they may be, do matter to someone, somewhere. So as it stands, wishing those willing to save those topics good luck--and thanks to the AFC reviewers/participants alike for all your hard work. (Feel free to leave me talk-page feedback.)
Maybe it's time I, an AFC drafter myself, took brief breaks from WP as other off-site commitments compete for my time and attention. All that grading was already overwhelming to begin with... --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 15:44, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Are these just 12 AFC accepts that have not been rated? And you are asking for us to rate them on the talk page in the banner shell? –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:41, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not yet rated, and in need of viable sources. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 22:10, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
- OK, I rated them all. Not sure if this is really an AFC matter. Some of these articles are years old. Once they pass AFC, then it's usually up to gnomes to rate them, the draft author and WP:ARS to try to save them if they're nominated for deletion, etc. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:34, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
- To clarify, I was asking for others to add reliable sources to those articles or nominate them for deletion if unsuccessful, not rate them. Hope you understood. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 00:43, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
- They've passed both AFC and NPP, so this may be outside of our scope. But I suppose it doesn't hurt to ask. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:48, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
- At the very least I was able to find a couple sources for ShipSpace. Reconrabbit 14:25, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- To clarify, I was asking for others to add reliable sources to those articles or nominate them for deletion if unsuccessful, not rate them. Hope you understood. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 00:43, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
- OK, I rated them all. Not sure if this is really an AFC matter. Some of these articles are years old. Once they pass AFC, then it's usually up to gnomes to rate them, the draft author and WP:ARS to try to save them if they're nominated for deletion, etc. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:34, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not yet rated, and in need of viable sources. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 22:10, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
Add NPP, search engine indexing in TM:AfC accept
[edit]The template that is posted on the submitter's talk page when their draft is accepted Template:AfC accept does not have a mention of the fact that an article has to be reviewed by a WP:NPPer to be indexed in search engines. I see many people coming to help forums asking about why their page doesn't appear in Google/Bing search results. It could also be demotivating to see that their article has less viewership due to them not showing up in general search engines. Ca talk to me! 07:37, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'm kinda split on this. On the one hand, you're right, and more information could be helpful. On the other hand... they can't really do anything about it, and my default reply for the last ten years helping out on IRC has been "we have no control over search engines". Is it better or worse for us to say "thanks for waiting 3 months for us to review your draft, now wait up to another 3 months for us to patrol it so it can be indexed!" Primefac (talk) 10:31, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- I would certainly be happier to learn that my article will be indexed in a forseeable timeframe rather than seemingly never. Ca talk to me! 10:43, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- I am split too, but my worry is that the new editors would start badgering WT:NPP to get their articles reviewed if WP:NPP is linked directly. – robertsky (talk) 11:06, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- My concern whenever I see this is why are they asking? I usually see it as a red flag that they are trying to use Wikipedia for promotion in some way. I would be happy to see a note saying something like "Please note we have no control over search engines" (which I admit is a bit of a lie as we do control asking them not to index some things), but I don't think we should point them to patrolling/NPP. KylieTastic (talk) 11:36, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Proposed text: "For content moderation purposes, all new articles are not indexable by search engines for up to three months while the editing community collectively review new articles, including this, for infringements of Wikipedia's core content policies. We have no control over how search engines may index the new articles beyond the 3-month hold." – robertsky (talk) 12:08, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- How about this?
- "Your article would not be indexed on search engines until New Page Patrollers review your article or after 3 months, whichever is first. We have no control over search engines results beyond the 3-month hold." Ca talk to me! 13:04, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- The idea is to shield NPP from potential badgering from new editors, hence in my proposed text it simply reads as "editing community". My wording of simply "up to three months" is also to keep the timeline vague and to lower the expectations of a review will happen earlier than the three months. If it is indexed early, it is a bonus. – robertsky (talk) 20:12, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Any such message we add would be not applicable probably about half the time, since a lot of AFC reviewers are either autopatrolled or mark the page NPP patrolled. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:32, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- The idea is to shield NPP from potential badgering from new editors, hence in my proposed text it simply reads as "editing community". My wording of simply "up to three months" is also to keep the timeline vague and to lower the expectations of a review will happen earlier than the three months. If it is indexed early, it is a bonus. – robertsky (talk) 20:12, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- I frequently notice that drafts I've accepted into mainspace appear on search engines especially Google, before they're reviewed by NPP. However, I believe there are folks (NPPers) that nomally review newly accepted drafts, people like Slgrandson, e.t.c. And let's be clear, we do have control over search engines! We can instruct them when to index or not, and page moves also impact their results sometimes. Hahaha! Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 19:57, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Actually, not really; unpatrolled new pages cannot be indexed. See WP:NOINDEX for the full table of what can be shown/overridden and when. Primefac (talk) 19:59, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- How many times per year do you think this question is asked? In which help forums? More data may be helpful since there is a tradeoff here: reducing questions about this for tens/hundreds of editors per year, versus providing complex information to thousands or tens of thousands of editors per year. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:33, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Here is couple I found from a very quick search in WP:TEA: 2018, 2020, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2022, 2023. I am sure for every question of this type asked, ten others did not, and became confused and demotivated that their hard research isn't even seen in Google. Ca talk to me! 10:00, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
drafts are too long
[edit]Could the new authors be pointed to something like
http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Special:MyPage/sandbox?action=edit&preload=User:Gryllida/NewArticleBLPv1/preload
User:Gryllida/NewArticleBLPv1/preload, used as a preload template, for example, this
to demonstrate notability before they start a full draft? Maybe it was discussed before I did not have the capacity to check the prior discussions, sorry. Please advise. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 10:32, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- (I am helping on irc, I have not been formally reviewing for a while, though did that previously) Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 10:33, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- (If the link does not work for you because you already have a sandbox, try [3] instead) Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 10:43, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- I agree it would be better we did not get extremely long submissions aimed more about showing notability, but I don't like the limitation to be "one paragraph (80 words maximum)". I would prefer drafts to be up to Start-class rather than Stub-class, I like to see articles 200-1000 words long. However, I agree things like Draft:Tulunid Emirate do tend to sit in the !queue longer probably due to length (16,915 words) and number of sources (140) and do clog up the process. KylieTastic (talk) 11:47, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- "200-300" then? They need to not get carried away to write full page. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 11:53, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Just noting that even if a page is really long, we don't need to necessarily verify the entire draft. For a draft with 140 references, I would probably spot-check maybe 15-20 of them (10%) to see if they're reliable. If they are, then I would check to make sure everything is reasonably supported. If things are more or less supported by more or less all of the references, the page should be accepted. Primefac (talk) 14:59, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, yet long draft being written without understanding notability criteria leads to increased author frustration and reduced success rate. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 02:34, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Every so often I poke away at a userspace essay about how to get through AfC quickly, and "Article is just really heckin' long" is indeed one of the "Common reasons for delay" I list. I think it's worth letting submitting editors know that longer isn't better, but I think setting a hard limit would be obnoxious to some editors and completely prohibitive to others (like the ones DoubleGrazing describes below). -- asilvering (talk) 16:36, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, don't get me wrong, a huge draft is a daunting task (and I will admit I have skipped pages like that before) but ideally speaking we should be operating a workflow that allows for reviewing long drafts without too much extra time taken. Primefac (talk) 17:47, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, to be clear, I agree with your above comment. Myself, I'd quickly skim the whole list of sources for reliability rather than spot-checking a subset, but I'd skip over the ones that weren't obviously one way or the other unless I found that was an alarming % of the total. In the end I think that works out to the same result: draft is accepted, maybe with some maintenance tags. -- asilvering (talk) 19:05, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
userspace essay about how to get through AfC quickly
. User:Asilvering/AfCguide? Nice start. I like it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:42, 5 September 2024 (UTC)- Thanks! I'll finish it... someday. -- asilvering (talk) 04:53, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Oh, don't get me wrong, a huge draft is a daunting task (and I will admit I have skipped pages like that before) but ideally speaking we should be operating a workflow that allows for reviewing long drafts without too much extra time taken. Primefac (talk) 17:47, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Just noting that even if a page is really long, we don't need to necessarily verify the entire draft. For a draft with 140 references, I would probably spot-check maybe 15-20 of them (10%) to see if they're reliable. If they are, then I would check to make sure everything is reasonably supported. If things are more or less supported by more or less all of the references, the page should be accepted. Primefac (talk) 14:59, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- "200-300" then? They need to not get carried away to write full page. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 11:53, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- While I empathise, the problem (well, a problem) with setting a size limit is that it would make it difficult to translate a fully-fledged comprehensive article from another language version, because it would require the translator to first prepare a précis or synopsis of some sort, get that accepted, and only then replace it with the full version. This isn't a hypothetical problem, either: there are at least a couple of editors working on a stipend or similar for a foundation of some sort, who submit very long, and very heavily referenced, translations from de./ru./fr.wikis (from memory). -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 15:21, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- PS: Open Knowledge Network, that's the 'foundation' I mentioned. (See the talk page of the author of the Tulunid Emirate draft, linked to by KylieTastic, above.) Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what this is? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 15:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- "a non-profit organization dedicated to improving Wikipedia and other open platforms." See: https://oka.wiki/ KylieTastic (talk) 15:34, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- In short, it's a person who has dedicated quite a bit of his time and also money to improving cross-wiki coverage. A rare example of paid editors without COI. They've now created their own wikiproject, which is at WP:WPOKA. They tend to target GA- and FA-level articles, which is why so many of them are absurdly long.
- Note to reviewers that, since these are translations from other languages, earwig is useless on these articles if you run it in English. Make sure you run it in the language of the original page. The editors always attribute their translations correctly in edit summaries, so it's easy to find which one they've been working from. I warned them about this a ways back and I don't think I've seen a single copyvio since, but it's always worth a quick check. -- asilvering (talk) 16:29, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- "a non-profit organization dedicated to improving Wikipedia and other open platforms." See: https://oka.wiki/ KylieTastic (talk) 15:34, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- They can translate a part to demonstrate notability, and after approval they can expand it later. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 02:36, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Actually, I think this is a great suggestion; I've expanded on this in the sub-section below. Mathglot (talk) 07:37, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Besides, DoubleGrazing and Primefac, I'm not proposing to set a hard limit, only make my linked template above a new option in draft writing wizard, with a note 'for new editors, this will reduce your writing time by a factor of five or ten'. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 02:37, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- PS: Open Knowledge Network, that's the 'foundation' I mentioned. (See the talk page of the author of the Tulunid Emirate draft, linked to by KylieTastic, above.) Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what this is? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 15:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- Gryllida, I have boldly altered your OP above, in order to fix the link so it points to your preload file located at User:Gryllida/NewArticleBLPv1/preload. This change of mine is technically a TPO violation because no editor should change the comment of another, but I think it is justified in this case because I believe it represents your original intent. The problem with the link you posted, is that you included the term
Special:MyPage
in it, and that targets different pages depending who is looking at the link. For example, when I clicked it, it went to *my* userspace and tried to bring up a page there, which is surely not what you wanted. Feel free to revert my edit if you feel you need to, but I believe this change will allow other users to see the preload page you intended to link. Cheers, Mathglot (talk) 21:07, 4 September 2024 (UTC)- That looks intentional as they mentioned the link won't work if user already has a sandbox, and gave alternative link. Looks like user can click it then create a sandbox in their userspace using the template. Indagate (talk) 21:17, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- If you think so, it's fine to revert it. Mathglot (talk) 18:33, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Hi Mathglot, thank you, I've clarified. I've changed link to point to a page which doesn't exist; if sandbox exists, the preload template does nothing, which may be confusing. --Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 02:39, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- If you think so, it's fine to revert it. Mathglot (talk) 18:33, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- That looks intentional as they mentioned the link won't work if user already has a sandbox, and gave alternative link. Looks like user can click it then create a sandbox in their userspace using the template. Indagate (talk) 21:17, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
- I find this whole discussion befuddling. I have, at times, created really long drafts in the process of making a draft thorough and fully fleshed out before moving it to mainspace. I can't be the only one who does that. BD2412 T 02:45, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- BD2412, you're not. See War guilt question, rev. 1011491911 (141kb at release); Offshoots of Operation Car Wash, rev. 937805602 (172kb at release). But don't be befuddled—this is an Afc page, and the discussion is about the burden of long drafts on Afc reviewers, which is a real issue worth discussing. But it doesn't apply to you, because it is not how about long drafts should be in general, or when experienced users working outside the Afc system should release their draft or how big it should be. It's also isn't concerned with when I finally get off my duff and release my two-year old Draft:French historiography (pls ignore the Afc draft header; that is strictly a test and nothing to do with Afc or when it gets released). Hope this has satisfactorily unfuddled you. Cheers, Mathglot (talk) 05:52, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- As a supplement to this discussion, allow me to suggest WP:Database reports/Long pages/Draft. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 11:34, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
Translations: do just a part to establish notability
[edit]Regarding translations, Gryllida wrote above:
They can translate a part to demonstrate notability, and after approval they can expand it later.
This is a great idea. It might be hard to establish this as general practice among disparate, independent new editors (we can always try), but among one subset of editors, this is eminently doable. The OKA team of translators are organized, and if there is a consensus at Afc that this would be a good idea, something about this could be added to the OKA translator instructions, thereby reducing the load on Afc reviewers considerably for OKA translations, while simultaneously getting OKA drafts reviewed and released to mainspace faster, in many cases, much faster.
I'd like to brainstorm some suggested verbiage to add to translator instructions and would like to hear from Afc reviewers and other interested parties about this. (Note that for OKA translators there is already a section, § Don't always translate the whole article and that would be the natural place for any new suggestions about this.) Here's my first attempt:
Mathglot's trial #1: suggested translator instructions for rapid Afc review
|
---|
When preparing a draft translated from another Wikipedia for submission to Afc, especially if the original is long, consider translating the minimum necessary to pass Afc. A shorter draft has a much higher chance of being reviewed quickly, possibly within 24-48 hours. A typical minimum is three solid references to establish WP:Notability, with inline citations to match. A single paragraph, or even two, well-researched, well-cited sentences may be enough. Even very short articles with three solid sources establish WP:Notability are rarely deleted at Afd. Once released to mainspace, you can continue working on it at your leisure. Further tips: see Help:Your first article#Notability, WP:THREE, and avoid the pitfalls listed in Afc reviewer instructions steps 1–3 at WP:AFCRI. Aim to get just the minimum needed (plus a bit of safety margin, go ahead and use *four* great citations), keep it short, and that should speed approval. |
Feel free to comment, steal & modify mercilessly, or come up with your own wording. I think this could really reduce Afc's workload wrt OKA editors, while speeding throughput for them. Adding 7804j. Mathglot (talk) 07:37, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- I dont think this is a good idea, as it introduces even more process for OKA editors, and could in some cases lead to rejections of the draft. Eg, we translated many "History of Xxx" articles, which only deserve their own article if the main content is long enough. These articles would be rejected if they were submitted as stub, as they would be unjustified fork.
- (another risk is that some may perceive this as going around the COI policy which requires that all articles from paid editors be created through AfC).
- If the main concern is that AfC reviews of long articles is daunting, wouldn't a better solution be to only require from AfC reviewers to check overall notability? I think it would be easier to change the review criteria than what gets submitted 7804j (talk) 07:56, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- No; Afc procedures have evolved over a long period, and that is pretty much a non-starter, imho. As a corollary, though, consider for example, OKA translation Draft:Viticulture in Stuttgart, which has been pending review for a while. It is 25kb and has 17 citations, most of them in German; in other words, a lot for an Afc reviewer to review. What if I picked the best four sources in English, moved them into the lead (adjusting the lead as needed), and deleted everything else in the draft? That would leave a one-paragraph, seven-sentence, sourced draft with clear notability. My theory is, that in this stub form, the draft would be much more likely to get reviewed quickly, than the draft in its current state. I would be curious what Afc reviewers would think about that. (edit conflict) Mathglot (talk) 08:15, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Shortening could help a lot. I'd just computer-translate a foreign source. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 19:28, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- That reminds me, there is no way that I know of to filter new submissions by language of sources, is there? Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 19:28, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Hi @7804j it is my understanding that the proposed process is opt in. So if you are confident the "History of" requires a long submission, that's fine, you would be able to keep doing that. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 19:24, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- No; Afc procedures have evolved over a long period, and that is pretty much a non-starter, imho. As a corollary, though, consider for example, OKA translation Draft:Viticulture in Stuttgart, which has been pending review for a while. It is 25kb and has 17 citations, most of them in German; in other words, a lot for an Afc reviewer to review. What if I picked the best four sources in English, moved them into the lead (adjusting the lead as needed), and deleted everything else in the draft? That would leave a one-paragraph, seven-sentence, sourced draft with clear notability. My theory is, that in this stub form, the draft would be much more likely to get reviewed quickly, than the draft in its current state. I would be curious what Afc reviewers would think about that. (edit conflict) Mathglot (talk) 08:15, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- For an experienced editor it may be easy enough to look at a lengthy article with lots of sources, pick the bits that establish notability, skip the rest, and still weave it into a coherent draft. But we're seldom dealing with experienced editors, for obvious reasons. Many new editors, meanwhile, struggle to even understand the concept of notability, let alone objectively evaluate sources from that perspective.
- All that said, this OKA group may be an exception, so it could be worth running this by them, and if they're amenable, trying this out on a couple of drafts. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:26, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- I suspect this will confuse even the OKA editors more than it helps them. -- asilvering (talk) 19:29, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- I think both this and the above section are too complicated and too much a departure from our normal workflows. Our normal workflows are to either just write a draft and submit it and get a notability review that way, or to post a list of sources at the WP:TEAHOUSE or WP:AFCHELPDESK for help with source analysis. If we want to make a big push to have folks get source analyses before writing drafts, we should probably put it in our messaging somewhere such as in editnotices and templates. Although in the long run that may be more inefficient/complicated than just submitting a draft. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:50, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Novem Linguae:, I think I was unclear, or perhaps I do not understand your objection. I am not proposing anything different at Afc, nor proposing a new process of source analysis to be created somewhere else; so the review process, in my proposal, would remain entirely as it is now. The only difference would be to recommend that OKA users create a draft translation of no more than a few sentences with impeccable sourcing clearly establishing notability, and submit it. Then, the normal Afc processes would take over. With luck, the draft will be reviewed in a few days, and the OKA editor can pick up the article again in main space, and carry on as before, translating the rest of it. Win-win: a much easier review for the Afc reviewer, a slightly smaller backlog for all the other reviewers, and much faster throughput for the OKA editor. I do not see a downside, here. If you do, please elucidate. Mathglot (talk) 23:06, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- The one I can immediately see is that many of the OKA drafts are getting tagged with various maintenance tags by AfC reviewers and NPPers, and if they get accepted through AfC in an abbreviated form, they'll miss that second look. -- asilvering (talk) 23:11, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
The only difference would be to recommend that OKA users create a draft translation of no more than a few sentences with impeccable sourcing clearly establishing notability, and submit it
. Ah, I misunderstood. Sure, that sounds fine. Although maybe that idea should be discussed on WT:OKA as they would be the ones to benefit from it and AFC reviewers probably wouldn't need to be directly involved in the change :) –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:09, 7 September 2024 (UTC)- WT:OKA (WikiProject Okanagan) would be confused ;) it would be WT:WPOKA. However, as they are paid editors that must use AfC for new articles. So if this just get a minimal draft through AfC then expand was encouraged, the question would be is the intent of the AfC check on WP:PAY just for nobility or for the editing as a whole? Considering the strong opinions on both paid editing and AfC I can see there been strong views on both sides, so it would probably be best to bring up at WT:COI. KylieTastic (talk) 10:04, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Novem Linguae: One of these moments I wish WP comments supported upvotes--but that's besides the point of this site's ultimate mission. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 11:37, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Novem Linguae:, I think I was unclear, or perhaps I do not understand your objection. I am not proposing anything different at Afc, nor proposing a new process of source analysis to be created somewhere else; so the review process, in my proposal, would remain entirely as it is now. The only difference would be to recommend that OKA users create a draft translation of no more than a few sentences with impeccable sourcing clearly establishing notability, and submit it. Then, the normal Afc processes would take over. With luck, the draft will be reviewed in a few days, and the OKA editor can pick up the article again in main space, and carry on as before, translating the rest of it. Win-win: a much easier review for the Afc reviewer, a slightly smaller backlog for all the other reviewers, and much faster throughput for the OKA editor. I do not see a downside, here. If you do, please elucidate. Mathglot (talk) 23:06, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
Multiple rejections by same reviewer?
[edit]Is it good practice for the same reviewer to review and fail an article repeatedly? Particularly when this goes from 'not enough sources' to sources being added and it then rejected as 'just not notable'. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:56, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- That largely depends, some reviewers try never to do multiple reviews end on end, others do. I do if it's obvious fail (for example: no sources resubmitted still with no sources). Otherwise it depends on the the case, and I would always say first talk to the reviewer in question. If a article was submitted with no or very few sources it may be impossible without looking externally to tell if they are notable, if more sources are added for the second submit it may become clear that the claims about the subject are not notable. If it's the case I think it is then you did try to ask and have not got a reply. I would suggest either poke the question again (in case it was just missed or forgotten about), ask at the help desk from the button on the reject notice, or add the article in question here. I would say the issue in this presumptive case, is not the multiple reviews but the rejection. If someone else had done the first decline would you not still be asking for clarification on the reject? Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 17:07, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- Also Andy Dingley as you are an experienced editor and article creator do remember AfC is not mandatory for you (unless you've been paid to work on the article, etc.) So if you think your changes are enough for notability then you could move to main-space yourself (and remove the AfC templates etc). The reviewer or anyone else can disagree if they want and take to AfD. Another option to consider is if you move it but want a second opinion, un-patrol it (as you are autopatrolled) and let NPP have a pass at it. Regards KylieTastic (talk) 17:15, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Andy Dingley I think @KylieTastic has encapsulated the theoretical answer well.
- Having looked at the draft I believe this was an erroneous rejection. I am about to have a conversation with the reviewer to ffer guidance.
- Since you are a highly experienced editor, may I suggest that there is sufficient notability for it to survive in main space, and that you move it there yourself? 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 18:08, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- The problem we've got with AfC is that it's being used in a way it wasn't designed for. Instead of being a place used to improve drafts so they eventually become articles, it has become a place for conflict of interest submissions. Most AfC submitters just want to get their stuff through; most of them don't intend to become Wikipedia editors (That's how I have perceived AfC in the past three years). There are significantly more submissions than there is reviewing capacity. Reviewing a single draft, if it's supposed to be done right, requires effort worth one hour, at least (ignoring drafts that are obviously unacceptable). I agree that, in general, in an ideal AfC system, the same reviewer should not review an article multiple times. However, given the current situation, I oppose introducing such a policy. I would support a submission limit per draft, i.e., that a draft can be submitted only once in a specified time period, for example, once per week. This would force submitters to improve their drafts rather than resubmitting them with the same obvious errors.
- The particular case that you have described, Andy, would be such a situation: composing a draft without citing sources doesn't yield a Wikipedia-compliant result. Adding sources to such a draft as an "afterthought" isn't going to work, at least that's what I reckon. There is a very high chance that the sources won't support the article as they ought to, thus, the draft is having a hard time demonstrating how the sources indicate notability. The sources must be sought prior to draft creation. Therefore, rewriting large sections of the draft from scratch – not all of it but most of it – is the right thing to do. But who knows that? In my perception, COI submitters who go the fast route – and seek to avoid learning how Wikipedia works – will never know. Due to the system's submission incentivisation – not submitting a draft is equal to a 100 per cent chance at the draft not being accepted, submitting it lowers that chance – submitters will keep submitting their drafts no matter how bad the drafts are or whether or not these submitters are even aware of their drafts' quality. The result is the huge number of unreviewed submissions. Therefore, I believe that, and unfortunately so that reviewers must retain the right to decline a draft more than once. Best regards, --Johannes (Talk) (Contribs) (Articles) 18:11, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Reviewing a single draft, if it's supposed to be done right, requires effort worth one hour, at least (ignoring drafts that are obviously unacceptable).
That seems like too long to me. I think 10 or 15 minutes might be a more reasonable "worst case scenario" time. The bulk of the time spent during NPP and AFC is checking citations for GNG. If it's REFBOMBed with 100 citations, then just checking the most promising looking ones is probably acceptable, as analyzing 100 sources for GNG is probably not a reasonable thing to expect a reviewer to do. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:02, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
Accepted. Rejection reverted. I'll leave the rest of this discussion to others. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 18:21, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- Courtesy link: Draft:Logan Henderson (engineer) –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:09, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- The particular case that you have described, Andy, would be such a situation: composing a draft without citing sources doesn't yield a Wikipedia-compliant result. Adding sources to such a draft as an "afterthought" isn't going to work, at least that's what I reckon. There is a very high chance that the sources won't support the article as they ought to, thus, the draft is having a hard time demonstrating how the sources indicate notability. The sources must be sought prior to draft creation. Therefore, rewriting large sections of the draft from scratch – not all of it but most of it – is the right thing to do. But who knows that? In my perception, COI submitters who go the fast route – and seek to avoid learning how Wikipedia works – will never know. Due to the system's submission incentivisation – not submitting a draft is equal to a 100 per cent chance at the draft not being accepted, submitting it lowers that chance – submitters will keep submitting their drafts no matter how bad the drafts are or whether or not these submitters are even aware of their drafts' quality. The result is the huge number of unreviewed submissions. Therefore, I believe that, and unfortunately so that reviewers must retain the right to decline a draft more than once. Best regards, --Johannes (Talk) (Contribs) (Articles) 18:11, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- I am more than willing to reject it multiple times if it's blatantly non-notable or deficient. If it's something I personally believe but not super obvious I will usually just leave a resubmit that I don't think passes to a second opinion.
- I do think that "conflict of interest submissions" are kinda the entire point of AfC being there; we encourage people to go through AfC if they have a conflict with the subject matter to make sure it's neutral. I will still reject blatant advertisements. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 18:56, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
"conflict of interest submissions" are kinda the entire point of AfC being there
- not really; see WP:ACTRIAL and WP:ACPERM. The point was to reduce the prevalence of junk in the article space, not just COI or PAID drafts. Primefac (talk) 20:44, 8 September 2024 (UTC)- I do not see the vast proportion of those I review as being COI or Paid. The vast majority are real editors wishing to get a draft accepted. Many make a good job of it and get through first time. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 21:21, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Zxcvbnm I am willing to reject a draft once. I usually review it and accept or decline once only, and very rarely touch it again. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 21:20, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- Same. I don't think it's a good idea for the same reviewer to decline a draft multiple times, since that can lead to problems if that reviewer's standards are out of step with everyone else's, and also because it encourages submitters to keep hassling the same reviewer every time they resubmit their draft. I do accept drafts I've previously declined reasonably often. -- asilvering (talk) 22:02, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'll third that; I personally do not re-review drafts, with the only exceptions really being when something hits the back of the queue twice and I'm the only one that seems to want to deal with it (and I think that's only happened a few times over the years). Primefac (talk) 22:34, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- That's the sort of thing I'd see as a good general policy. I was wondering if there was anything concrete about it. This was not about any one specific draft, just something that came up.
- TBH, I'm not convinced this one even does demonstrate notability, although I have a few other sources to check first. But the only good archive for this stuff is physical access only and a hundred miles away.
- I wasn't going to move it to mainspace because I don't have the AfC tools and was previously warned off doing one manually. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:45, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- I think, Andy Dingley, that it ought to be framed as good advice for which there may be exceptions. Making it a rule would be too prescriptive.
- With regard to being unsure on the notability front, our standing instructions are to accept any draft which we believe has a better than 50% chance of surviving an immediate deletion process. That means we are entitled to be unsure, but only unsure.
- I accepted the draft on that basis. I feel it has a way better than 50% chance of survival. If it is sent for deletion I will remain neutral and watch with interest.
- I see "immediate" as being "in the next few days after acceptance without any significant intervening edits"
- We need to have the courage to risk being wrong, to accept borderline drafts, and to allow the community to look at such a draft and make their decision. I'm always disappointed when I have been shown to be wrong, but take that disappointment cheerfully. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 08:10, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Andy Dingley I hope you weren't 'warned off' in such a manner as to leave a nasty taste in your mouth, though it sounds as though you can still taste it.
- I'm going to make a guess. My guess is that you may have moved a draft to mainspace when you thought it ought to be there. That is a good thing, even if you were in good faith error. The request (I hope it was a request) was potentially "When you do this, please tidy the AFC artefacts from the head of the article before you declare your work done."
- I really hope it was along those lines, and hope, if it was me(!) it was as polite as that.
- AFC welcomes experienced editors finding wheat in the chaff and handling it well, with or without the toolset. The only extra things the toolset gives you when you accept a draft are pleasant "Your draft has been accepted" notes on the submitting editor's talk page, and that it does the tidying up for you, plus giving you prompts in its user interface for categories, etc etc. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 09:34, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- You can move whatever you want from draftspace to mainspace per WP:DRAFTOBJECT. Whoever warned you in the past was probably mistaken. Since you are autopatrolled though, if you are not confident that what you're moving is a notability pass, you should probably un-autopatrol it after the move to get a second set of eyes on it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:05, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- It was probably someone moaning about not removing the AFC-related templates and tags. Probably worth mentioning but this sounds more like someone complained rather than leaving a nice note. Primefac (talk) 15:59, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- In general moving AfC drafts to mainspace directly is a bad idea since the vast majority of people who do this are doing so disruptively, so it's reasonably likely someone will assume the same of you. In your case, better imo to avoid AfC entirely, and simply let NPP handle it, as @Novem Linguae explained. -- asilvering (talk) 18:32, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- Same. I don't think it's a good idea for the same reviewer to decline a draft multiple times, since that can lead to problems if that reviewer's standards are out of step with everyone else's, and also because it encourages submitters to keep hassling the same reviewer every time they resubmit their draft. I do accept drafts I've previously declined reasonably often. -- asilvering (talk) 22:02, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Probably good to just suggest that reviewers not do multiple reviews on the same article (unless the creator requests it e.g the reviewer is guiding them). Two things I've seen....one is rejections for article quality issues which are not in the AFC standard. The other (I'm an active NPP'er and just an occasional AFC reviewer) is the AFC reviewers on average play it extra "safe" which means that many AFC reviewers have a tougher standard than NPP or AFD. North8000 (talk) 18:48, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
NewPagesFeed
[edit]I was reading m:Wikiafication, an essay over at Meta opposing old WMF stuff that would've been done by the growth team nowadays. Examples included Special:NewPagesFeed, which includes AfC drafts and seems like a really useful and interactive way to browser AfC submissions! Pages can be filtered and sorted, sort of like the watchlist/recent changes. How should we incorporate links to this? The tab for submissions is squished enough already, and I can't decide where to put it. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:15, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- You propose to add Special:NewPagesFeed to Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/tabs? Seems like a great idea. How's this? –Novem Linguae (talk) 02:15, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, the problem was me attempting to make it "JS Feed" due to the page requiring JS.
Self-trout Aaron Liu (talk) 02:59, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Other than having the first sentence of the draft, does this do anything different than just browsing the AFC submission pages/cats? Primefac (talk) 12:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- It's a more intuitive interface that can filter things and generally get to a draft to review faster. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:04, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Other than having the first sentence of the draft, does this do anything different than just browsing the AFC submission pages/cats? Primefac (talk) 12:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, the problem was me attempting to make it "JS Feed" due to the page requiring JS.
Page info comment
[edit]Anyone know what the 'page info' blurb on top of the Draft:ExoSat Aerospace Industries page is? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 14:14, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Category machinations
[edit]I would have expected this to have been removed by the script when I accepted the article. {{Draftcat}} detects when the article is moved to mainspace and does the right thing so as far as readers are concerned there's no issue. ~Kvng (talk) 14:25, 10 September 2024 (UTC)