Dear Netherzone, thank you for your feedback on the page of Ana Mesquita (artist) - I believe I understood your views on the quality of the page although I disagree with some of the harsher comments - Portugal is a small country and the artistic scene has been enriched by many women artists that pursue less traditional forms of visual arts and privilege collaboration with other artists in multimedia formats - and Ana Mesquita is one of them.
I fear that my lack of experience in writing for Wikipedia while following best-practices may have colored the approach to this page - but wish to press on and write this page better and move on to write other pages - I live in Portugal and in Norway and am interested in furthering the visibility of artists and scientists of both countries in an environment that is, often, rather English-centric both in culture and in language.
English is presently both the "official language of internet" and the official language of several countries (USA and UK, etc.) which tends to create a slightly negative bias on the perception of cultural relevance of non-English artists and scientists. It is a problem that I hope to mitigate in my humble way, article by article.
The 2023 picture is from the Abel Fest in Köthen, celebrating the tercentenary of Carl Friedrich Abel, a viol virtuoso, composer and concert organiser in London (together with Bach's youngest son), born on 22 December 1723 in Köthen, where the new catalogue of his works was introduced, - my story today. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:56, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for liking what I saw and wanted to tell! - I have endured the attitude that looks like censoring to me - keeping facts about opera away from the Main page, arguing that opera singers only do there job - for years, and see some light, that it may change, thanks to comments like yours. You can comment in the DYK nom for Anna Nekhames (they are always on the talk page, and also on my user page.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:29, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The reviewer found nothing interesting? Speaking as a fellow editor, who knows nothing about opera other than what I've learned from you (and the few performances I've seen) the original hook that began with this: that coloratura soprano Anna Nekhames performed first in the Bolshoi Theatre's children's chorus immediately drew me in. Why? Precisely because I was unfamiliar with the term, coloratura soprano. As a inquisitive person I wanted to learn more. Secondly because I had no idea that the Bolshoi Theatre had a children's chorus. A hook not only draws in those who are familiar, but more importantly (at least to my way of thinking) draws in readers who are NOT familiar with a subject. The value in this IMO is that it shares knowledge, which is a fundamental goal of the encyclopedia. One reviewer's personal opinion of what constitutes "interestingness" should not have such influence over what appears on the main page. I'm so sorry that your valuable and well-crafted contributions have been undergoing such subjective scrutiny. Keep on doing what you are doing, Gerda. You are amazing, and appreciated! Netherzone (talk) 23:40, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, feel understood! Same thing for Tamara Milashkina. - Taking tons of pictures, 23 chosen for 23 Jan, 6 uploaded, too tired for more - on my talk you see that it's the birthday of Mozart and our conductor ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:04, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hey there @Scope creep, no worries at all. I considered your comment very seriously because I think you have excellent judgement. The AfD turned out well, and I learned some things about rap music in Iran. See you around! Netherzone (talk) 16:21, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi
Thank you for your suggestions to improve this article and make it more reflective of the Wikipedia style of presentation. I believe I have done this now and hope it is now sufficiently robust to warrant publication. Many thanks for your assistance. Zaccwm (talk) 16:29, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Zaccwm, thank you for your message. I will have a look at it when I find a moment. Could you please use the draft talk page for communications regarding the draft rather than my user talk page? That way, the conversation will be seen by other reviewers and editors who have seen the draft. Thanks! Netherzone (talk) 16:38, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was familiar with User:L'Origine du monde from about 2015 and decided to spend some time today figuring out what they did to receive an indefinite block and it seems a lot of it had to do with their conduct on this article and its talk page. I was wondering since you spend some time in 2023 cleaning up the article whether the tag about having a "closely connected" editor can be removed. If you were referring to L'Origine du monde, they are blocked now and won't be editing it any longer and I assume you removed the inappropriate content. I'm not proxying for L'Origine du monde, I haven't had content with them since their first indefinite block years ago. But since I was reviewing the article as part of my search for information, I was wondering if you believed the tag was still appropriate. If "yes", then so be it but since you are more familiar with the page than I am, I thought you were the best person to ask. Many thanks! LizRead!Talk!02:06, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Liz, thank you for reaching out about the A&L article. It has been a while, and I can't remember if did a final check of the article but will do so today. That interchange in 2023 with L'OdM was challenging, and I would never think you would be proxying. Thanks for the heads up - I will let you know about the maintenance tag here or on the article talk page once I do a read thru this morning. Netherzone (talk) 13:50, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Liz, I did a final pass, and cleaned up a bit of material that gave undue weight to an occasional member of the collective. The editor who added it, Aradicus77 was blocked for promo/advertising. It looks fine now - COI template has been removed. Thanks again for your reminder, I appreciate it. Netherzone (talk) 14:27, 18 February 2024 (UTC) Courtesy ping LizNetherzone (talk) 14:20, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tell Charles01 who wrote it, - I just fixed things for the Main page. Did you click on "look"? A few images telling more than thousand words. The few new pics are of the most stunning coastline of La Palma, only I had some camera setting wrong, - I borrowed them from a friend. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:21, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was sad to hear about @Vami IV. I did not know them well, but remember them from Women in Red, and seeing them around in general. We both worked on Saline Valley salt tram which was one of @Possibly's short articles that was later featured on the main page. Vami IV did a lot of good work for the encyclopedia, and will be missed by many in the community. I'm sorry for your loss, Gerda. Netherzone (talk) 16:52, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I want to ask which improvements the rejected English draft ROLF LAVEN require to get published?
His German-wikipedia is confirmed: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolf_Laven
An English-wikipedia is urgent, since Rolf Laven was nominated for an international prize in the USA.
Hello, and thank you for you for reaching out. I'm sorry to have to tell you that it is not acceptable at this time, and I don't think it would survive deletion, but here's some thoughts on improvements. I noticed the German language version was already deleted once, but then recreated and heavily edited by the artist themself. The English draft relies on his education and memberships, and contains a lot of name-dropping of famous people, none of which contributes to notability. At this time, it doesn't yet meet the criteria for a notable artist nor academic WP:NPROF (no citations of his work on Google Scholar nor Scopus), and based on the sourcing does not meet the general notability guidelines as all the sources are primary (or a name-check) except one, which is more about a program for school children than about his own work. EN-WP needs independent sources (not connected to the person) that provide in-depth significant coverage, published in reliable sources. Also if his work is held in the permanent collections of notable museums or national galleries, that would help.
Please know that there is no need for "urgency" - at all. It's better to wait until there are enough good sources available than a "race to the finish line" to get an article published. The draft won't expire for six months, (which can be extended). See if there are other sources available that others have written about him, or wait until those become available in reliable sources before resubmitting. Sorry if this is disappointing news, but hope it has been helpful. Netherzone (talk) 16:19, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ha! and thanks, I've always wanted one of those. I fluctuate between using reply-link and direct editing on AfD's and forget that I still need to sign if I'm not using reply-link. Thanx for the reminder. Netherzone (talk) 02:00, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi! In this edit summary[1] you say "Take it to the talk page to discuss with other editors before making this change again." and I wonder what the reason for reverting is because none is actually given in the summary. I'm not seeing the policy or guideline based argument for reverting, please explain. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello and thanks for reaching out, Horse Eye. I see you have reverted my edits. My edits restored the article to a stable version, but it seems you disagree. I won't be reverting your revert, and will be archiving this discussion shortly. Thanks for keeping a keen eye on things, Netherzone (talk) 16:00, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
especially when I discovered that I had a book she wrote in my library but have been hampered by not being able to sign on to wikipedia on my computer and being in the middle of an taxing medical situation. However at some point I hope to add a few more references. carptrash aka 2600:8800:590F:8600:D8BB:215:7B50:975F (talk) 05:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @Carptrash, I'm so sorry to hear you are in the midst of a medical situation. I hope it resolves soon. It was interesting to read your article on Blanche Grant, those dynamic, independent Northern New Mexico creative women were a force of nature! Let me know if there's anything I can help out with while you navigate your computer & health issues. You can post things here or on article talk if you would like me to help make improvements, or look anything up in the Wikipedia Library. All the best, Netherzone (talk) 13:13, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Carptrash, hope you are doing better with the medical situation. I wanted to let you know I did a little work on Blanche Grant today, nothing major. Added a pix of one of her paintings and a bit more content so readers can understand her style of representation; and cropped the image of her and friends at Howard Pyle's studio to remove the frame. It also did not seem to need an infobox for the group photo so I removed that formatting. If there's a specific reason why you wanted the infobox just let me know and I'll restore it. Be well, and hope you are able to sign on and see this. Netherzone (talk) 22:44, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's an odd situation. I've never seen AfD participation where someone keep refactoring their comments over and over like that, it's hard to keep track of what they are trying communicate from moment to moment as it keeps changing. They have been editing on WP since at least 2010 under another username(s). But the contributions of that account haven't gone back nearly that far. Their first AUTOBIO was deleted in 2010. Then recreated by UPE in 2015, now the newest is apparently MEAT. I can't quite figure out what is going on but it is clear after 14 years, they don't seem to understand the purpose of an encyclopedia. Netherzone (talk) 01:28, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, the refactoring is somewhat annoying, but not as big as the other issues. Should the matter be raised to a noticeboard? It seems like you've already tried discussing with the user at their talk page, during which you said you think this needs admin eyes, and I don't see signs of real behavioral progress since then. cc @WomenArtistUpdates and Star Mississippi:Left guide (talk) 01:54, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the ping Left guide and NZ. While I am getting the WP:NOTHERE vibes loud and clear, maybe we should see what happens over the weekend. It appears that something has finally gotten through, as the editor is now trying to erase the traces of COI on their user page, and off wiki accounts. I have no objections to admin eyes, but I worry that I have lost objectivity on the matter. Best, --WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 17:21, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
poking in*
Sorry, I was offline for a few days and am still not fully back. Short of semi'ing the AfD, I don't see an option. Things seem to have quieted down though. I appreciated that those canvassed were trying to make a case, even if the genre isn't notable, but it was disruptive. I didn't see the refactoring, but will try to keep an eye out when back if discussion isn't closed. Thanks for flag and sorry for leaving you hanging on my Talk @Left guideStarMississippi02:47, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @Netherzone, I received a notification that you had left me a message on my talk page this afternoon, but I do not see any new messages there. I am reaching out to see if you left me a message there, and I am missing it. Thank you for your guidance, and I apologize for the refactoring. Scribe1791 (talk) 01:23, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wanted to apologize for my contributions to the Geoglyphs article. I thought it was a good idea because of their importance to the plot of Tears of the Kingdom, but I did not consider that the main focus of the article was archaeology and earth art, not their use in fiction. 73.79.229.7 (talk) 13:38, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No worries whatsoever, and no need for an apology! Feel free to add relevant content to the video game article to improve it. But please make sure to add the sources. Happy editing! Netherzone (talk) 13:46, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All this, I'm afraid, underlines my growing impression that wikipedia lacks the necessary signposts, the clarity of guidelines, the essential transparency and sufficient safeguards to be a safe place for me to work. David Tornheim helpfully reassured me that the trolling I faced was not unusual. While that is comforting, it is also a warning.
I certainly did not want to scare them off. I wonder if there was another more diplomatic way to both make the editor feel safe -and- warn him/her about the concerns described in WP:BAIT.
I have seen far too many new editors come here mistakenly believing they can make a fix to an article to correct something that to them seems blatantly obvious it should be permissible to do, and then they don't understand the push back to their change and the seemingly bizarre policy reasons given. They can down in flames because they truly believe that the change they want to make is most definitely right, and they have no idea how their edits of complaint against an experienced user--one who strongly disagrees--might be used against them at WP:AN/I to unfair advantage as described in WP:BAIT. It seemed to me that things were headed that way, so ARoseWolf and I both tried to encourage -and- warn the new editor. I am curious how you (and anyone else listening here) might have handled it differently when we first encountered the dispute. This seems like a good case in point for the challenges of keeping new editors. --David Tornheim (talk) 02:39, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Such a shame to lose Jon. I am not sure what we could have done further. We were trying to support them as a new user that faced, what I feel, the worst possible situation a new user could face, not completely the other user's fault, but also try to offer constructive instruction to keep them from facing those issues again. I wasn't focused on the multiple user's on the same IP as much as talking about not having more than one user on the named account they were using and also address editing while logged out. I think Netherzone also touched on that in their response. Either way this was a decision Jon made and we just move on. David I think you did a wonderful thing explaining the situation as you did and offering support for them. Don't be too hard on yourself that Jon chose not to stick around. Thank you, Netherzone, for your statement on Jon's talk page. --ARoseWolf12:10, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please don’t be too hard on yourselves, @David Tornheim and @ARoseWolf. You both are amazing and kind. Everyone came to the discussion in their own way using different communication styles. The same way that all of us have different modes and styles for learning and building knowledge. Both Jon and ThaddeusSholto (who has since disappeared) had reasons for their positions.
As a brand new editor, Jon doesn’t know the ropes here, and what are the “hot buttons” or words to avoid. It’s the image that is racist and pornographic, not the editor, something that you both understood and recognized and tried to communicate – focus on content not contributors. But we all know that can be hard to do when we are upset, and both editors were upset for different reasons.
If you two had not stepped in when you did to quell the slow-moving edit war things would have escalated. WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and WP:NOTCENSORED can be hard to understand as a new editor. I think the “encouragements-and-warnings” were fine.
The underlying problem is that Wikipedia does not have a cohesive, integrative “Instruction Manual” or “Operating Manual.” WP’s policies, guidelines (behavioral and content), essays, MOS, and cryptic acronyms are scattered all over the place like little bits of paper or sticky notes.
My gut feeling is that Jon will be back, I certainly hope so, as it seems he has a lot to offer the project. I was impressed with the sources he brought to the talk page discussion. The photo hit a significant nerve with him, and understandably so. When I first saw it my impressions went from curiosity and puzzlement, to cringing, to deep sadness, to moral outrage, but tried to keep these emotions in check so as not to escalate matters. The vulnerability of the young girl in the image is painfully tragic in relation to the powers of empire building and cultural domination she was subjected to.
Speaking for myself, sometimes when I’m really upset all that is needed is someone to simply listen, not to tell me what to do or not do. Believe me, I can be stubborn when I think I’m right, but usually I just want to feel understood – not agreed with – but listened to and understood.
We were all beginners, and in a sense we still are, thankfully.
Let me add that I equally think its a shame that ThaddeusSholto has disappeared and truly hope it was not directly related to this issue. I wish them wholeness where ever they are. Thaddeus was not wrong to initially revert for the reasons they gave. That's all despite feeling the same emotions you did, Netherzone. Then I saw the exchange and I was more appalled by the exchange, not who was involved. In the end there were more reasons to remove the picture under policy than keep and consensus came the right conclusion.
"Speaking for myself, sometimes when I’m really upset all that is needed is someone to simply listen, not to tell me what to do or not do. Believe me, I can be stubborn when I think I’m right, but usually I just want to feel understood – not agreed with – but listened to and understood." You took a page from my book. lol This is me, 100%. In fact I will generally come around and even ask for advice knowing we disagree, I don't simply want others to agree with me. Having different viewpoints and the details of your journey to your conclusions, this happens even when we do agree, is what I want to absorb because I am still a beginner and I desire to learn. I am thankful for you both. You truly enrich my life. --ARoseWolf17:01, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking for myself, sometimes when I’m really upset all that is needed is someone to simply listen, not to tell me what to do or not do. Those words resonate with me too. Beautifully written. Thanks so much to both of you for your kind words.--David Tornheim (talk) 19:02, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You brought up this in one of Greg responses. I'm running into similar suspicion here Talk:Canadian_AIDS_Society. One of the responses come as 100% AI on GPTZero, but comes up as human in ZeroZPT and other search engines. I ran it through a check, because the response just felt rather superficially wordy and hollow. Do you think one is more accurate or are they all questionable? Graywalls (talk) 20:24, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also came up with 100% AI on one of the messages I scanned with GPTZero on that link. Intuitively the long responses seem machine generated, but on the other hand, the editor could simply have that sort of communication style. I don't know which search tool/engine is best. You might want to ask at Wikipedia:WikiProject AI Cleanup? Netherzone (talk) 20:56, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Roadside shrine in Santa Fe, NM, commemorating the life of Chris Abeyta, a local musician, poet and educator.I love the photo of the cat with the red hydrant, also the spring (fountain) with the tiny shrine in a niche. I have a thing for roadside shrines, have many photos. Here's one I shot a couple years ago. Thank you for inspiring me! Netherzone (talk) 20:34, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Gerda, and happy Easter to you. Loved looking at your most recent photos, esp. those of the Monte Palace Tropical Garden. Makes me want to go there! Ever onward.... Netherzone (talk) 00:19, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe I resolved your concerns and so removed the tag. If you disagree, please let me know and explain why. Thanks! JDtoBee (talk) 15:46, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@JDtoBee, the article still reads promotionally, not in an encyclopedic tone. Encyclopedia articles should not be written in a way that boasts about a person's "greatness". Biographic rticles should simply cover, in summary style, the most important highlights of a per life. It very much seems like the article was created as an autobiography. I'm also wondering if you might have a connection to the subject of the article. It's difficult for connected editors to be totally neutral. Netherzone (talk) 16:05, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article is written in the same fashion as that one, I believe. If you disagree, please provide some specific examples so I can fix. The only boasting about greatness that was in the article was in quotes not added by me and I removed them. Listing accomplishments from external sources is not the same as boasting and all articles on distinguished professors explain accomplishments.
I am a student in the field but am not directly connected. I am planning to work on other entries related to the field this is just the first one I began working on. I also did not create this entry I have just worked on revising it. I am perhaps defensive about the field, but mostly I am defensive about my work on this being attacked by you without you providing any specific explanations so that I can fix and improve. JDtoBee (talk) 16:19, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@JDtoBee, No one is attacking you. Please continue your questions on the article talk page, where it belongs, not here. I will be replacing the maintenance tag until the issues are resolved. This thread will be archived shortly. Netherzone (talk) 18:11, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I hope you are well. I just postponed deleting a lot of drafts created by Doncram, as I always do when I come across them in my CSD G13 patrolling. I noticed that you had edited many of them, marking them as "promising drafts".
My question for you is do you know whether there are editors currently working on finishing up these unfinished drafts? I'm happy to postpone deleting them now but I'm thinking about in another six months, November 2024 or 2025. If there aren't editors spending time taking care of projects that were unfinished when he passed, I question indefinitely postponing their deletion. I considered posting this message on his User talk page but I don't know if many of his fellow editors have that page still Watchlisted and I thought directing my question to an individual was more likely to get a response. Or is there an active WikiProject which would be a suitable place to inquire? Thanks for any information or thoughts you can offer. Take care. LizRead!Talk!20:38, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Liz, thank you for reaching out. I saw that you made a blank edit to Draft:David Back Log House and Farm earlier today to save it from deletion, so I started to make some improvements and added it to my To Do list in my sandbox. It's on the NRHP, and it's a notable site. I saw on my watchlist some other drafts marked as promising.
I guess I got a little gun shy about moving deceased editors drafts to article space after George Ho got upset about it, when I and others were saving DGG's drafts from deletion after he died. It seems George felt that I was trying to bypass the reviewers at AfC (I was not), I was simply trying to help out as I had done after Possibly died.
I have autopatrolled rights, so I thought it was OK. See [[2]] It's been years since I've used AfC. I've created over 200 articles and none of them have been deleted. There is a huge backlog at AfC and NPP.
Liz, in your opinion is it OK for me to improve Doncram's drafts based on reliable sources and move them directly to article space? I have a clear understanding of Wiki-notability criteria. Thanks, I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Netherzone (talk) 21:44, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I left you a message on the cobblestone house draft's talk page. I could read the source, but there was only one sentence about it.
I'll move the two drafts this evening. Am now working on Draft:Rice, Arizona - I found a good source that has a lot of interesting historical facts about Rice. The town went thru a few name changes so at first I thought it should be redirected to San Carlos, Arizona however if I find another in-depth source I think it will pass notability. Netherzone (talk) 02:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ha! You are quick on the keyboard! I saw that you just submitted the Grant Road and the David Back Log House drafts. Thanks! Netherzone (talk) 02:24, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think we E/Ced on one of them.
Grant Road credit probably could have gone to you. I was on auto given them to Doncram. Thanks for the help on Cobblestone. That one is going to be a challenge but I think we can clean it up to a good little stub. Ping me if you need anything on Rice, happy to help. StarMississippi02:33, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Star Mississippi, I just resubmitted Draft:Rice, Arizona, it had been declined once. I made significant improvements and also found a lot of historical photos of Rice when it was an active settlement. I think it passes notability for a former settlement based on the current sourcing. When you find a moment, could you please have a look? Netherzone (talk) 16:51, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for thinking of me. I'm not a fan of giant locomotive lists and don't think they are encyclopedic. The area of preserved locomotives, specifically steam locomotives, attracts a high proportion of disruptive editors (usually children, or people who act like children anyway). I try to steer clear and have removed almost all such articles from my watchlist. Getting kind of tired of fighting sockmasters in this area, just put this one away last month and currently fighting another (getting eyes at SPI these days is near impossible, sadly).
Back when this specific draft was discussed, I made the point (which I still stand by) that trying to list every single preserved locomotive in the United States within a single article would be impossible and futile, as the list could easily expand to thousands of entries. I also believe there is zero reason to even have such a list, as it can be fully handled by categories (e.g. Category:Preserved steam locomotives of the United States, which already exists along with subcats). Any notable locomotives will have their own article within the category, defeating the purpose of the list. The list would just be a duplication of information and one more page added to our maintenance backlogs (it would forever attract IPs adding unsourced crap and original research). Those are my thoughts. Someone else may feel differently, of course. You could try WT:TRAINS and see if anyone is interested. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 17:22, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That makes total sense. Thanks for the input and the history @Trainsandotherthings Will ask at WT:TRAINS if I get to it, but may also just let it go to G13 the next time. There are enough admins around who are willing to restore his drafts - including me - if someone makes a case for why it's needed and is willing to caretake it. And ugh yes on SPI. Makes me wish I had the tech skills to apply as clerk or CU StarMississippi12:53, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All my classing as start means is > stub, so if you think they should be higher, feel free to re-assess. This has never been an area I was involved with. StarMississippi00:37, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi! I think (but may well be wrong) that we need to keep it for attribution. If I'm wrong, it can be deleted and I'm happy to G7 it, but in the interim I redirected it. StarMississippi18:05, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wrote the vast majority of the article, the original Doncram draft was just a few sentences and the infobox. So I think it's OK to either redirect or delete the draft, since I mentioned Doncram (so he would be credited) in my edit summary when I moved over the content that I had written...so we both are attributed to the improvements to the existing article. But please do whatever you think is best! Netherzone (talk) 18:57, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, Netherzone. Please check your email; you've got mail! It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.
hope you can help me again i nthe future! i have a long list of Japanese textiles artists who im trying to compile information and publish articles on.
once i fill out Matsubara a bit more i want towrite about
柳 晋哉 who is also prominent weaver from the yanagi family (created mingei(folkart) movement) Markmcnbowe97 (talk) 03:36, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for reaching out. Good luck with your future projects on Japanese textile artists. I look forward to reading them! Don't hesitate to contact me if you have any questions. Netherzone (talk) 03:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@MaskedSinger, sorry to disappoint you but as a volunteer editor I don't do reviews on demand. The exception to this has been in the case of deceased editors, where I have worked with a team of others to help clean up any expiring drafts or unreviewed articles in user or article space. I'd suggest trusting your drafts to the normal AfC process. Netherzone (talk) 15:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Replaceable non-free use File:Rose Simpson with her work "Counterculture".png
Thanks for uploading File:Rose Simpson with her work "Counterculture".png. I noticed that this file is being used under a claim of non-free use. However, I think that the way it is being used fails the first non-free content criterion. This criterion states that files used under claims of non-free use may have no free equivalent; in other words, if the file could be adequately covered by a freely-licensed file or by text alone, then it may not be used on Wikipedia. If you believe this file is not replaceable, please:
If you have uploaded other non-free media, consider checking that you have specified how these media fully satisfy our non-free content criteria. You can find a list of description pages you have edited by clicking on this link. Note that even if you follow steps 1 and 2 above, non-free media which could be replaced by freely licensed alternatives will be deleted 2 days after this notification, per the non-free content policy. If you have any questions, please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. --Min☠︎rax«¦talk¦»12:40, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Minorax, I've been searching for a non-free image of her work for a long time (years). Have not been able to locate one. I thought this one would be OK to use because of freedom of panorama as a public art work in an outdoor setting. However, if I'm wrong about this, and if you think the use of this image violates the non-free use criteria, please go ahead and delete the image asap. Thank you for calling attention to this matter. Netherzone (talk) 13:04, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So I assume that this can be tagged as an "author's request for deletion"? Also, images of living person are generally not allowed to be tagged as fair use. --Min☠︎rax«¦talk¦»13:19, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Minorax, yes, it can be tagged as author's request for deletion. Thank you for your help, good to know that images with living people are generally not allowed. Netherzone (talk) 13:30, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Gerda, thank you, as always, for keeping in touch and sharing your stories, creations, nature, travels and meals. I always appreciate hearing from you. Netherzone (talk) 15:33, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also Gerda, just wanted you to know I added one of your images to the articles, Chalybeate and to Spring (hydrology). It's a beautiful image of a chalybeate spring (high iron mineral content in the water). And also added your image of to Levada (Madeira). I noticed that English Wikipedia is lacking in articles on the Levadas of Portugal. Netherzone (talk) 16:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Today's story is about the TFA, by sadly missed Vami_IV. In my support in 2018, I hoped to do justice to Schloss Köthen next - which I will begin today, finally, promised. Its Bachsaal was pictured to begin this year year. For more related thoughts and music, look on my talk for 1 June. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:23, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Enjoy today's story, related to my topic of the year: 300 years Bach's chorale cantatas, and the first was written for today, - listen to the music, beginning with a French overture for a chorale fantasy. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:38, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Gerda, beautiful skies, and that lobster risotto looks fantastic. Your food pix always make me hungry. The article on Alexander Lang is great. Netherzone (talk) 23:36, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Today I wanted to write a happy song story, on a friend's birthday, but instead we have the word of thunder on top of it, which would have been better on 2 June, this year's first Sunday after Trinity. The new lilypond - thanks to DanCherek - is quite impressive. As my 2 Jun story said: Bach was fired up. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Today is a feast day for which Bach composed a chorale cantata in 1724 (and we had a DYK about it in 2012). Can't believe that Jodie Devos had to die, - don't miss her video from the Opéra-Comique at the end, - story to come. The weekend brought plenty of music sung and listened to, and some of it is reflected in the last two stories! + pics of good food with good company --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:12, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know the spot where that photo was taken very well. I'll never forget the acrid smell of the plume of smoke that lasted for weeks. Do you know about Wolfgang Stahle's video? (Another German artist) who, by chance, had mounted two video cameras in his studio building, pointing towards Manhattan, long before long before the planes hit. By chance it captured the attacks. Netherzone (talk) 15:43, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. Impressive! - Just a look at music (on my talk) shows remembrance of three people who died, and creating an article or improving one is all I can do. Three are on the Main page today, and three others planned ... --— Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerda Arendt (talk • contribs)
Hypomyces lactifluorum (Lobster mushroom)
Went on a wonderful mushroom foray with friends yesterday in the mountains. There have been nice monsoon rains in the late afternoons that started early this summer, so there were many mushroom species fruiting including the mysterious and beautiful Hypomyces lactifluorum (also known as the "Lobster mushroom") which is actually two mushrooms combined in a parasite-host symbiotic relationship. A fungus grows on top of its host mushroom, usually a Russula, combining DNA and encapsulating it in a velvety lobster-colored covering. Another interesting find was Monotropa uniflora, also known as Ghost pipe. While not a mushroom it's an odd looking plant that does not contain chlorophyll, which accounts for its ghostly appearance. The wonders of nature never cease to amaze me. Netherzone (talk) 06:27, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Graywalls, now that I think about it more, it is indeed very strange that they would find a Draft out of the blue like that unless there is some sort of coordination. I found the dots.... Drafts are not visible in general Google searches are they? I wonder how many of the article creations are directly correlated to the interests and holdings of the organization.... Netherzone (talk) 15:06, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is pretty clear there is coordination (undisclosed paid or unpaid) with the MCHS, esp. with all the other area-related drafts and articles. I'll have to look back thru my browsing history to find the other mentioned above. Such a waste of time and energy dealing with this nonsense! Netherzone (talk) 22:54, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Graywalls, it was this [[[Talk:Alexander D. Henderson Jr.#Request Edit K]]], where he referred to himself in the third person in an unsigned COI edit request so that it looked like another editor made the comment. The source requested (after it was first declined) was "ProPublica" when it simply was a database entry on the ProPublica server that is based on Foundation-submitted 990s which is not the same as having an independently written article by ProPublica, yet RSP was mentioned to "back it up". I've seen this same behavior several times which has fooled newer, lesser experienced edit request helpers as well as with newer, lesser experienced editors at NPP and AfC and if I recall, even canvassing has taken place in the past. Netherzone (talk) 00:19, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
for example canvassing re: [[3]]. There are other instances of canvassing but I don't have the time (nor connection speed) to research right now. Netherzone (talk) 01:07, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Another game was removing the notability hatnote tag with a baloney edit summary Made changes by removing items that were mentioned in the comments.[4]Netherzone (talk) 03:12, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Star Mississippi:, I couldn't remember exactly where it was, but in the pre-deletion Josselyn talk, is there any mention about having a conversations or talking on the phone? I recall Greg saying something about voice communication somewhere. Graywalls (talk) 00:10, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Star Mississippi and Netherzone:, on that note, I came upon another article that appears to be yet another side branch of the Carmel-by-the-Sea walled garden. I re-directed, but expectedly, it was objected by the article's creator, so I directly sent it to AfD. Based on how I've done it, I felt this was the appropriate action for getting consensus, but should I have considered a different alternative I haven't been aware of before? Graywalls (talk) 01:56, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the AfD is fine, and agree it's part of the Carmel walled garden. Churches do not have inherent notability, they have to meet the same criteria as any other business or organization. This one is not on the NRHP. I don't know what an alternate route would be, but maybe Star does. Netherzone (talk) 02:07, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think your course of action was correct @Graywalls or at least I'd have followed the same. I'm curious how his mainspace block allowed him to contest it, but I may have missed something. I'm not weighing in as yet on the AfD as I need some time to look. I wholly trust your assessment, but due diligence and all before I !vote. StarMississippi02:40, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
AfD is the typical route for settling contested blank-and-redirect cases with established sourced articles. However, another option for a freshly-published article like this one is to procedurally move it back to draftspace as a reversion of a controversial undiscussed move by asking a page mover or filing a request at WP:RMUM, and there would need to be consensus at the draft talk to restore it to article-space. @Melcous: I know you've recently been granted page-mover rights and you've also been extensively involved in Greg's work; in future cases if someone objects to the publication of one of his drafts, would you be willing to restore it to draftspace until a consensus can be reached on the talk page? @Star Mississippi: as an admin with page-mover rights, is this something you would be willing to assist with too if requested? Left guide (talk) 02:45, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would, but as the person who opened the AN that led to his topic ban, I'm probably Involved. That said, I think this is a good course of action since newer reviewers aren't aware of the breadth of the issues with his drafts. StarMississippi03:23, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't see it... what I seem to recall is Henderson at some point said something about having a phone call about some sort of person who works at some place. Which diff? Graywalls (talk) 23:02, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Graywalls, just wanted to share this thought with you: I think it may be best to hold off on clean up efforts like AfDs, PRODS, redirects and merges until after the ANI is closed. It will help de-escalate an already tense situation. I share your frustration with the ordeal of clean up, but maybe wait a bit for the ambient temperature to drop. I will help with the efforts, know that it will not all fall on your shoulders. What do you think about this suggestion?
Also, I also noticed the newest way of misreprentating sources by altering the publisher (using internet archive to do so sometimes) or as you recently discovered NPS vs. Parks & Rec. Also I found if a book by a questionable press (or self-published) but is digitized by another press with a good name, this has been used as cover for the original publisher. Sometimes university presses digitized hundreds of books enmass at a time as they move their library holdings online rather than on paper hard copies. The digitized version may sometimes credit U of Calif. Press (for example) when the original publisher may be Podunk Press of America or whatever. Something to be cognizant of as clean up progresses. Netherzone (talk) 17:52, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for that element of your note on my talk page. I felt it needed to be thanked for here, personally, not there, somehow impersonally.
I have a firm belief in kindness, compassion, giving the least hurt, and always dealing with the behaviour, not the person, when in drama board and other "third party area" discussions. I don't say I am any sort of exemplar for this. I just try hard to deliver my message in an assertive manner which causes the least personal damage to the editor under discussion.
Sometimes that editor makes it very hard not to make direct, second person pronoun responses. I believe in the third person, which turns it from dialogue into a statement.
Thank you once more. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrentFaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 08:06, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I kind of watched the discussion on the periphery and did not comment or !vote at the discussion. It seemed consensus was becoming obvious and I felt for Greg even though I agreed with the consensus. Also it's been good to not be involved in much the last week or two. I would be remiss to not comment on the kindness several of you have showed in this instance. You obviously didn't have to and it is a very rare occurrence. I wish I could say it was not. I've known Netherzone and @Tim for some time so it does not surprise me. @Left guide I haven't known you, I don't believe, but I wanted to say how much I appreciate all of you. No matter how much we think an editors work is a wrong fit for Wikipedia, even when the community sides with us, treating them with as much respect as possible, even in the face of backlash from said editors, is hard but is noble and, I believe, one of the most virtuous acts as can be found within the community. You should all be commended for your thoughtfulness. --ARoseWolf11:39, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ARoseWolf There were several editors who chose, as you did, not to pile on. I have no idea whether that helped or hurt Greg, but I think it was a great kindness. The discussion was not a popularity contest, after all. Had it been so, well, I still like Greg, as do others. It would have made no difference to my input as I told him in a now archived personal message on his user talk page.
Thank you for reinforcing the message of kindness, perhaps especially while delivering an unpleasant message. And thank you for your comment here.
Kindness ought to be our normal behaviour. It shows strength to be able to be kind in the face of difficult behaviour. Hmm, that sounds like self praise. I think you know what I mean, though. Perhaps I ought to say that showing kindness does not display personal weakness. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrentFaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 11:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the contrary. Showing kindness in the face of adversity and being thoughtful in realizing on the other side of this less than ideal situation is a hurting human being exemplifies great strength. From what I saw all those I mentioned, and others not mentioned, were firm but compassionate and empathetic. Had I not seen that I probably would have commented, at the very least on the users talk page. I feel it would have been piling on to comment because you (group) had communicated the problems effectively and done so in the least hurtful way. Kindness should be SOP, a sort of default situation. But it cost me nothing to be kind in a situation where there is no friction. I am still trying to master this. --ARoseWolf12:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ARoseWolf Then you have already mastered almost all there is to master. For me the nub of it is choice of pronouns for the venue, and non inflammatory language coupled with not needing to counter every point made, lest it turn into an unwanted argument. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrentFaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 12:49, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Far from it. Particular subjects and the responses to it still irk me to reply and I need to learn to let it go, especially when I've made my view clear and nothing on Wiki is going to change. It's hard because it is a subject I deeply identify with and feel it is very much an injustice society has somewhat corrected but the mentality here does not accept the correction holding on to outdated views. It's both troubling and personally hurtful. Yet, I need to learn to let it go. --ARoseWolf16:17, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ARoseWolf Being irked is not mutually exclusive with a decent response to another human being, especially when irked. I say that you are self aware, and thus are able to choose. Thus "you have already mastered almost all there is to master." 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrentFaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 21:32, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
cc @Graywalls: If either of you two attempts to delete articles created by that one editor, either AfD or PROD, please refrain from notifying him. As someone indefinitely blocked by community consensus (which essentially means community-banned), he's not in good standing to challenge or discuss content matters, and it's not helping anybody if he's notified since it ratchets up tensions that have no relevance to the encyclopedia. Thanks. Left guide (talk) 23:48, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm 100% with you on this suggestion, @Left guide, and just left Tim a note saying the same. There is a lot of clean up ahead, and there is no deadline. I think clean up should wait a week or two or until things settle down and the block "sinks in". The currently open AfDs can proceed as normal, I agree with you that now is not the time to open additional AfDs or PRODs, and also feel the same about redirect-and-blanks, and merges. Thank you for your excellence in keeping a cool head through all of this. I appreciate you! All the best, Netherzone (talk) 23:54, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I was thinking the same thing about letting the block sink in. I'll probably focus on the building articles, since that's what I feel most interested and knowledgeable about with regards to sourcing. And thank you for the kind words and moral support, same to you. :) Left guide (talk) 23:59, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have left each of you replies on my talk page. Courtesy ping to @Left guide. I am somewhat in agreement with the points you each make. I say "somewhat" because I feel I disagree slightly with some, but cannot isolate them to comment. Perhaps you should consider it to be cautious agreement. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrentFaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 08:00, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tim, I respect you very much, I am certain that you know that, but might you please consider holding off on AfDing Gregs articles for a little while? Whether or not messages are on his talk, I'm sure he is watching the articles. Maybe think about waiting a week or two, there is no deadline for clean up. I think @Left guide is correct that it could be perceived as grave dancing. Netherzone (talk) 15:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, I wasn't referring to the act of cleaning up/deleting articles he authored as gravedancing, but rather the act of notifying him. The cleanup will happen eventually anyways and is inevitable, the notification is preventable without affecting the encyclopedia. Though I do think deletion efforts can wait for a week-ish at least. Left guide (talk) 16:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I understand that is what you were saying Left guide, thank you for clarifying. I need a break from all of this high drama, I am feeling quite depleted and exhausted from it. Netherzone (talk) 17:09, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe a discussion should be held and nominate run of the mill Carmel and Monterey buildings in a bundle as not to waste community time with numerous separate AfDs. Graywalls (talk) 01:13, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Graywalls, this is a good idea, but I still think we should wait until the ambient temperature drops. In a couple weeks maybe? I think a lot of the Carmel drafts can probably be merged or redirected and blanked, but again, I think that clean up should not take place immediately. I also was thinking that if there are any unsubmitted drafts that they might just die on the vine in 6 months. Active resubmitted drafts will still have to be dealt with. Netherzone (talk) 01:41, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Largely agree with Netherzone. One thing we can do for now is keep an eye on his talk page and filter out any "bad" news that arrives from the content side (notifications for AFDs, PRODs, declined drafts), since there's no positives and can only stir up irrelevant drama and negativity. From his point of view, it can be reasonably considered WP:GRAVEDANCING. I've been trying to do this since the sanctions were imposed, but if anyone wants to help when I'm offline it would be most appreciated. Left guide (talk) 02:54, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Left guide:, I don't agree with policing anyone's talk page and removing notification from other people's talk. Per WP:TPO, it should not be done unless it crosses the boundary into prohibited contents, except for your own page. Graywalls (talk) 21:08, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I respect and understand your viewpoint. To be honest, for everyone's benefit, it's probably pretty moot by this point since based on his recent responses he seems to have finally come around to accepting the community consensus for his block, admittedly to my pleasant surprise. Left guide (talk) 21:24, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate your optimism, but I'm not there yet especially after the response to the decline (giving credence to your initial point here) and the UTRS request. But agree with @Netherzone as well about waiting a bit. There is no rush to delete and if he sees they're well covered at a potential merger target in August 2025 perhaps there will be less drama if he's unblocked without a t-ban. StarMississippi01:58, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not a WP issue per se, but rather a Commons concern, any thoughts on what to do about all those family tree Categories on Commons? The only time I've seen something like that is in relation to royal families, or super-famous families like the Kennedy or the Rockefeller family. Netherzone (talk) 21:58, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you - "out of scope" does mention categories, and some of them might fall under the criteria of "not educationally useful; private image collections", and the criteria of "self-promotion". There are quite a few more than what was listed at the ANI. On another note, I've started adding some maintenance tags to a few of the articles I spot checked today. I still plan on holding off for a while before proposing merges or redirects or AfDs. I think it may have been you who expressed an interest in looking over some of the buildings, I could help you with that task if you like once I get back into the swing of editing. It might be a good strategy to identify some of the key walled gardens that could be worked on collaboratively. Netherzone (talk) 23:27, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah that was me; I plan to get around to that at some point. I don't mind meta-discussions like this, but I honestly need a break from directly dealing with that user's behavior and content; that ANI was incredibly exhausting, and I don't think I've fully "recovered" yet. It's nice to be able to kick back and relax with more personal interests on the encyclopedia. Left guide (talk) 23:46, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They are blocked for at least a twelvemonth. In due time, probably very soon, they will stray too far from what is allowed on their TP, and access will be rescinded by their choice because of what they place there. That draft will wither on the vine and be gone in six months.
It may be that, at one of their allowed future appeals, they regain editing rights, full or limited. Even then they will be under perpetual scrutiny. The overall objective of preventing damage to Wikipedia has been achieved.
This means that none of it except cleaning up the mess matters now. I don't believe that is a topic for discussion with them.
Only their behaviour matters at present, for that is what will see their block lifted or re-confirmed by the community at appeal time. We should not provoke them, even by accident. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrentFaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 07:35, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, yes I remember seeing that, the photo is hard to forget. I can't recall if it was AfD'd, or G11'd or just expired and restored to his user space. Or if he was called out on UPE around that time and it got stalled. Not sure what the policy is for deleting other user space drafts, but maybe NOTAWEBHOST? @Star Mississippi may know and could advise once she returns from the weekend. Netherzone (talk) 02:03, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The history of that page appears rather ordinary as far as his drafts and sandboxes go, with no AfDs or restorations to userspace, looks like it never touched mainspace. I don't know if it could get speedied given the tenure and edit count of the user. There's WP:MFD; I think briefly implicating the chronic COI/UPE issues that led to the multiple blocks and ultimate site ban which that page is part and parcel of, along with the poor-quality writing could combine for a strong deletion case at MfD. Whether or not there's a realistic chance of notability may also be a factor; what do you think about the sources? Left guide (talk) 03:19, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Left guide, Something is fishy with the draft. It was created in July 2023, just before GH got busted for UPE a few weeks later. It has all the indications of UPE - the highly promotional text that sounds like it was submitted by the client. The fact that the portrait in the info box was uploaded by GH "With the permission of David J. Marchi" proving there was coordination of some sort. It was uploaded from Marchi's LinkedIn site per the image info, and LinkedIn is where GH admitted he advertised his "services" for paid WP editing. GH then uploaded eight photos of Marchi's work with the permission of "David J. Marchi Gallery" (more coordination.) Bingo.
There is a longer fish story here too. The Marchi article had originally been created by a different editor in 2008 and speedy deleted, then recreated in 2009 and speeded again User talk:Flubbadubba#Speedy deletion of David j marchi.
Then two SPAs created an article in Sept 2013 on Marchi's former husband: Matthew Christopher Sobaski. The SPAs: Flubbadubba1956 and Vermontmountainboy (who seems to be Matthew Christopher Sobaski according to the image data). And in Oct 2013 someone with a user name very similar to David Marchi himself created a user space draft on Marchi's then-partner User:Davidmarchi/Article namespace (never published).
In conclusion, I think that David J Marchi wanted his own WP article but realized he and or Christopher (and their sock puppets) did not have the skills to create it, so he hired GH via LinkedIn. Then numerous UPE articles of GH were discovered shortly thereafter and this draft got stalled in GH's user space.
Hi all. Unfortunately my on wiki time is too limited to help here right now. If it doesn't get resolved by the time I'm fully back online in a couple of weeks, please do flag it for me. StarMississippi01:35, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Left guide:, Sure looks like a "client" page. I wasn't even aware. I didn't bother to look through Greg's sandbox. The plus side of just letting it be in his user space is that if the biography subject choose to find another avenue to get himself onto Wikipedia, it will make it easier to catch it. Graywalls (talk) 11:56, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea, also proof he was not being truthful when Z1720 directly asked him to list all his UPE clients and he replied Zearn, Gary Hugh Brown, Gary W. Lopez, Winston Swift Boyer, Washington Review, Nyombi Morris, Robert W. Smart, and Jin Koh. but made no mention of this one. Read Archive 12 for more insight, Archive 11 is interesting as well.
Hi @Mike Christie, sorry for the delay getting back to you. I think it is odd that The Nuggeteer would get the credit for the GA when I did the lion's share of the work on it. I'm sort of perplexed by this, but then again I don't know how the GA process works. I'll comment on the article talk page. Netherzone (talk) 08:17, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Netherzone: I'm sorry that I nominated the article without your permission, and you can be the nominator now, I'm going to work on other articles which I mostly worked on, by the way, I don't see any questions on my talk page, the thread which contains the GA nom does not have any unanswered questions, can you tell me? 🍗TheNuggeteer🍗00:35, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TheNuggeteer, thanks for the response. I had tried to start a conversation with you on your talk page, however you archived the messages I left for you, so it seemed like you were not interested in discussing the authorship matter. Netherzone (talk) 17:54, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your e-mail; I don't reply by e-mail to users. The biggest problem with the other accounts is their age.
Just like the folk at AN who have commented, I don't think you've done anything wrong. I am curious, though, which images you think are mislabeled as "own work". I looked at a bunch and didn't see that.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:12, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Bbb23, the questionable ones are these which show complete paintings by an artist: [9], [10] (Just because there are chairs in the images does not make it ok; the same way that if one were to photograph a Jackson Pollock painting with a museum bench in the picture would not make it ok.) I also wonder about this: [11], I understand that freedom of panorama can justify certain situations, but this is a photo of the artwork (not of the tree), that was used to illustrate the (now deleted) Trotter Museum-Gallery article. And possibly this: [12], and also possibly these: [13], [14], [15]. Netherzone (talk) 15:54, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The sources of those images are spelled out, and when you couple that with the shots themselves, I think it's unlikely to be copyright infringement. Now, whether the museum (for example) gave them permission to take those pictures, I have no idea, but that would be between the photographer and the museum, nothing to do with Wikipedia. I can't imagine they would be considered unauthorized derivative works, but now we're going rather far afield from the usual straightforward violation.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:59, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Bbb23, I was under the impression that if an image of a copyrighted painting or other work of art was uploaded to Commons, and if it was not your own work (in this case meaning the painting itself) there needed to be proof of permission from the copyright holder (or in this case, the museum (?) or more likely the artist's estate) - not just word of mouth - provided by email or the ticketing system. But I'm not a Commons expert, however I do care about creative artists' rights to their own work (as well as their estates). I'll remember this advice going forward, it's interesting to know. Thanks again. Netherzone (talk) 17:34, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The law has a thing called freedom of panorama, and the rules for it vary by country. Please see Commons:Copyright rules by territory/United States#Artworks and sculptures. There is no freedom of panorama for two-dimensional artwork or sculptures in the United States, or even for publicly displayed signs with text on them.Some exceptions apply. For example, in the United States, public artwork installed before 1929 is considered to be public domain, and can be photographed freely. In addition, any public artwork installed before 1978 without a copyright notice is also in the public domain. There's special templates added to the file for these kinds of exceptions (see the Commons for details). These templates are included in addition to the license template for the photograph itself. In other words, the file ends up with two license templates, one for the photograph and one for the artwork. A deletion request should be filed for each image that does not meet the freedom of panorama criterion. — Diannaa (talk) 20:03, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Diannaa, thank you for this very helpful explanation.
@Bbb23, I'm not sure if it's ok for me to comment on AN because I'm not an admin. (I know it would be ok if it were ANI). Do you recommend that I copy and paste this to AN or would the user's TP be a better forum? I don't want to escalate the matter. Netherzone (talk) 20:40, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As a general matter, non-admins post to AN all the time, nothing wrong with it. When you say you don't want to escalate it, why would you want to post it to AN? Seems to me we have a two-fold problem. The first step is to alert an administrator at Commons to the possible copyright violations. If there are any after engaging in Diannaa's analysis, then they should be deleted from Commons. It's a Commons issue as to whether the user should be sanctioned there. As for this project, if they have in fact been including copyrighted images, then that would be a matter for ANI, but I suspect there would have to have been some clear warnings to that effect before any sanctions would be imposed here; after all, I can certainly understand someone not understanding these rather complicated rules.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:47, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(talk page watcher) @Netherzone: I'm reasonably active on Commons, not an admin anywhere. In general, the best way to alert an admin there is to flag the relevant files there for some form of deletion. There is a sidebar menu item that allows this with ease. If it is not there for you I suspect you may have to enable it in Preferences.
If in any way unsure of the circumstances I suggest a full deletion discussion, some of which are discussed in detail, others of which are nodded through. Simply describe your thoughts in the deletion rationale. The admins on Commons are pretty much expert in their field.
DRs there are not the same as an FFD here, and certainly not as discussed as XfDs. There is no shame in making a mistake and nominating something incorrectly.
As a general point, prominent art in a photograph tends to be frowned upon there, as a breach of the artist's copyright. It depends whether it can be judged to be Freedom of Panorama, or an unsubtle breach of copyright.
An issue is with whether the item photographed is still "in copyright" in which case one might chose to nominate as "Missing Permission" (sidebar menu again) which places the onus on the uploader to regularise permissions via c:COM:VRT unless otherwise declined by an admin. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrentFaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 21:19, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Timtrent, thank you, as always, for your helpful thoughts and advise. I will look into the FOP issues more deeply. I am hoping the editor will correct any errors themself. I have been a long-time supporter for artists rights and the rights of artists" estates - and not just on WP - and so I do truly appreciate your guidance. Netherzone (talk) 22:30, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This may be with regard to the editor who took you to AN. I am having a discussion on their Commons talk page with regard to several (to me) obvious licencing problems there. They seem highly likely to co-operate with advice. It may be that the were simply previously unaware of the stringent requirements there. I think they will resolve this now that they are better informed 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrentFaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 08:19, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your work over on Commons, and glad to hear about the cooperation. Tim, your'e great! Yes, they may have been unaware, or were confused because they edit on two different language WP's which was why I had mentioned to them the copyright laws may differ between the two countries. I do hope that the files of the women artists' works of art get resolved. Netherzone (talk) 13:46, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It all really depends on when they died, and how long the work is in copyright in the relevant nation. One of my recent COmmons SD nominations has been challenged by an admin there, as you will see by looking at the uploader's talk page. They make a persuasive case for retention, but I feel I make a persuasive case for deletion. The discussion and closer will decide.
In a few days I suggest you nominate a key one or two which cause you concern there (The John Steinbeck section, to me, is a photograph of materials still in copyright, but I make errors!) and see what happens. It's a great way to become more familiar with Commons.
Thank you Tim, you are much more experienced than I on Commons. Even as a "visual person" I still find the rules regarding image use confusing, I should probably hang out at Commons more frequently to better learn the ropes. Tnx for the info on tools and rights, good to know. Re: the uploads, I had the same thought to wait a while to see if the uploader takes care of the permissions/licensing with the paintings and mural. In general, I think that women's creative works too often get "lost" or they fall thru the cracks of history too frequently because their work is not correctly attributed (or credited at all, which is not the case here). This is one of the reasons I support these rights and the rights of their estates (if they even were able to plan for an estate.) Netherzone (talk) 15:56, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have a feeling in my water that the uploader fails to understand the basic principles of copyright, and they may fail, even with the right intentions.
With any creative work, assuming it to be notable, I believe Wikipedia should document it. But we must not infringe the artist's copyright. I dislike the doctrine of Fair Use since it is designed to infringe! As my US colleagues say, "Go figure!"
I think he has received and understood at last the difference between an "own work" and a "derivative work" and you may see the evidence of that in hs Commons editing history.
He has just nominated multiple of his own uploads for deletion, which shows great good faith. I've thanked him on Commons. It was by no means all my influence.
Tim, thank you for sharing the good news that the editor is acting in good faith. And thanks especially for the time and diplomacy you have devoted to helping out with this. Netherzone (talk) 18:42, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is always worth gong the extra mile when the editor is acting in good faith, albeit confused good faith. I am sure, however, that he is upset by this. It was a difficult emotional thing for him to do. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrentFaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 08:18, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bbb23, I think you may be misunderstanding my question. I did not want to post it to AN and did not mean to imply that. I wanted to follow correct protocol so the matter de-escalates rather than escalates. I don't read nor participate at AN so I don't know the AN protocol and whether it's OK for a non-admin who has been reported to that board post there. My question was honestly seeking your advise, and I was not seeking sanctions for anyone - I was trying to be helpful.
That is also why I had voiced my concerns on the editors talk page rather than on a drama board, and offered them several explanations of my understanding of image-use of original copyrighted art on WP and/or Commons. Please remember it was not I that opened the report at AN.
I'm glad you asked Diannaaa as her response confirms my understanding of FOP. My question to you was to simply to seek the best way to share that FOP info with the other editor - to try to be helpful. I was hoping the editor will correct any copyright errors themself, which is exactly what I suggested on the editors TP several times. Netherzone (talk) 22:21, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, Netherzone. Please check your email; you've got mail! It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.
Today I have two "musicians" on the Main page, one is also the topic of my story, watch and listen, - I like today's especially because you see him at work, hear him talk about his work and the result of his work - rare! - and a sunset if you click on places -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:33, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh wow, can't wait to read this one - love that photo of him at work. Beautiful photo to the right as well, will check out your other pix soon. Netherzone (talk) 15:37, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know you prefer this term, but WP:WALLEDGARDEN is "a set of pages or articles that link to each other, but do not have any links to or from anything outside the group", which does not describe most articles by Henderson. Thus when you and others accuse him of this, he is rightly confused as to what the heck you are talking about. -- GreenC19:37, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi GreenC, thanks for your note about your concern. You know that I have a lot of respect for you and what you do for the encyclopedia, but see the matter at hand through a different lens. Respectfully, I don't believe I am the first, and certainly not the only editor or admin to have used that term to describe the problematics of this long-term case, or other similar cases for that matter. I have to disagree with this part of your message: he is rightly confused as to what the heck you are talking about. While the case may not fit the exact word for word Wiki-definition of walled garden in the essay you linked (it does have a meaning outside of WP), the problematics were explained to the editor dozens of times. I don't think Mr. Henderson is or was "confused as heck" at all, rather that he just did not want to listen to what the community was advising - for years. Out of deference to your experience, I will try to find other words to use. Netherzone (talk) 20:37, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Netherzone, I removed his comments at Talk:Edward G. Kuster due to WP:block evasion. If you disagree, you can restore them. At some point he needs to understand he, the person, regardless of the account/IP is not welcome here at least for the next year. I don't know if you saw this on his talk page, but his ability to email was also disabled because he emailed me after I declined a draft wanting me to reconsider. S0091 (talk) 19:00, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the heads up @S0091. I had noticed the LOUT socking because two redirects to the Kuster article were undone by another editor (who I'm sure was unaware of the long-term issues). I'm not sure if the reverts to the redirects occurred before or after the LOUT activity.
It's one the worst cases of WP:IDHT I've seen and sad (and annoying) but it's clear he really does not get it. You and others tried until there was no choice but to bring it to the community, yet again. Fingers crossed he will get it at some point in the not too distant future. S0091 (talk) 19:56, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@S0091 I have formed an opinion which the policies here prevent my expressing (because it may be incorrect and thus problematic for other reasons) based upon I will not hear that, rather than IDHT. My private opinion suggests to me that there is unlikely to be a correction of his path. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrentFaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 12:43, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it was apparent the editor who did the reverts must have read the first message the IP posted (the one I copied below the second message along with an unsigned|IP template) I think the editor who responded by undoing my two redirects (of Theatre of the Golden Bough and Golden Bough Playhouse (I think I had redirected both to Kuster), did so in good faith, not knowing about the ongoing problems. I left them a note on their talk page. The second IP post looks like a "thank you" to the reversion of redirects. Bingo! Editing by proxy to an editor unfamiliar with the case .... exactly what was happening at AfC and NPP. Anyway you look at it, it's quite clear that it's logged-out block evasion. I feel certain that GentlemanGhost acted in good faith and did not understand it was a LOUTsock. Netherzone (talk) 21:32, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Timtrent, enough dots are now connected that I believe I understand what you mean. I had not previously considered what I think you are implying. Sadly, I agree that correction or reversal is unlikely. Sigh... Netherzone (talk) 21:10, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While going through Greg's article creations, I worked on Ocean Park, Santa Monica and found this user in the page history who was indef site-blocked for UPE. Had to remove some of that editor's COI/promotional sourcing. @Graywalls and Melcous: Just wanted to flag it for the three of you. Feel free to copy this to WP:COIN if more eyes might be necessary/helpful. Left guide (talk) 06:54, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Left guide, I think you rightfully spotted a UPE editor, but I do not think they are related to the other editor of concern. Check out the interaction between the two: [16]. It seems coincidental that both editors worked on Ocean Park.
I think Caraghm might have been part of a group of editors here to promote the University College Dublin and its faculty and alumni. (The editor is a UCD alum). I tried, not so successfully, to clean up a little of that promo. My guess is that the UCD held a Wikipedia edit-a-thon and some of the participants then started editing promotionally or for payment; or alternatively, the university's PR people went on a wiki-promo campaign. The IP recognized something was amiss. Netherzone (talk) 13:42, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I knew those two editors are highly unlikely to be related to each other. Sorry if I may have inadvertently implied otherwise. Left guide (talk) 13:55, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Fjnovoa (talk) 02:57, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
Done
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