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A few points

First of all, some of the English language sources that I've reviewed do not state that ONLY Hezbollah militants were injured. Secondly, the "Background" section contains multiple past attacks involving Hezbollah, Lebanon and Israel, while many of the sources have nothing to do with the pager explosions (not including the defense official issue). This is likely a violation of WP:SYNTH, where editors try to connect multiple events together because they believe the events are related even when no reliable source made a connection. Nythar (💬-🍀) 15:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is currently no indication that the car explosion in Syria had anything to do with the pager explosions in Lebanon. Nythar (💬-🍀) 15:20, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with both. 1. This is isolated to lebanon and 2. apparently Iran's ambassador was also wounded, along with civilians.Sportsnut24 (talk) 03:23, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Death of a child

  • Aside from the fact that civilians were injured, we also know that a girl was killed[1]. But this keeps getting removed. Why? VR (Please ping on reply) 17:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • ABC News says[2] "killing at least nine people – including an 8-year-old girl -- and wounding several thousand, officials said." So it doesn't seem like only a Hezbollah claim.
    • We also have: "The 10-year-old daughter of a Hezbollah member was killed in Lebanon's east when his pager exploded on Tuesday, her family and a source close to the group said. "A 10-year-old girl was martyred in the Bekaa Valley after her father's pager exploded while he was next to her," her relatives told AFP."" So we seem to have sufficient confirmation.VR (Please ping on reply) 20:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • AP confirmed the death of an 8-year-old girl: At least 9 people killed in pager explosions
  • I see claims above of 8-year old, 9-year old, and 10-year old, with no reliable source. There's not enough substance here to put it in the article.
How is AP now a reliable source? VR (Please ping on reply) 04:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If sources agree that a child died and disagree on the age, it is still enough to include. --Super Goku V (talk) 20:29, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it can be mentioned even if we can't confirm her age. Just say, "a girl aged 8–10". Lewisguile (talk) 11:54, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 17 September 2024

2024 Lebanon pager explosions → 2024 Lebanon–Syria pager explosions – Reports on pager explosions in Syria with multiple confirmed deaths: Times of Israel Prodrummer619 (talk) 16:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – It appears that most sources are focusing on Lebanon as this was the primary site of the explosion, with significantly less in Syria. Nice4What (talk · contribs) – (Thanks ♥) 18:04, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support – while most explosions were in Lebanon, that there were explosions in Syria is still very important politically. RedAuburn (talk) 18:10, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – it appears the overwhelming majority of injuries took place inside Lebanon. Reliable sources report 3,000 injuries in Lebanon, and only 14 in Syria (BBC). These numbers may change, but as it stands this seems primarily a Lebanese event – which is exactly how it's being discussed and headlined in most reliable sources. Including Syria in the infobox and lead is enough, IMHO. GhostOfNoMan 18:18, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral – I would propose a rename to 2024 Hezbollah pager explosions (or similar), since that seems to be the central association between the explosions. Nearly half of those killed were in Syria. Here's an example of the BBC using the name "Hezbollah pager explosions" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz04m913m49o Eastwood Park and strabane (talk) 18:38, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I tend to agree with GhostOfNoMan; the overwhelming majority of this incident happened within Lebanon. Whizkin (talk) 18:49, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It should be renamed 2024 Hezbollah pager explosions because it were Hezbollah's pagers that exploded (not restricting geographic range). MathKnight 19:01, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good idea Whizkin (talk) 04:56, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I very much support this. DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 07:40, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support 2024 Hezbollah pager explosions, per MathKnight and Eastwood Park and strabane. - Sebbog13 (talk) 14:51, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Although the majority of the explosions occurred in Lebanon, the number of explosions in Syria was more than a handful (so far it's in the double-digits), and (as of this writing) the death toll in Syria is similar to the death toll in Lebanon. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 19:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Changing my !vote in light of recent developments: to rename to Coordinated attacks on Hezbollah's mobile communication systems.
  1. No need to disambiguate with the year, since it's so unique
  2. Covers both the pagers and walkie talkies
  3. Covers all geographic locations of the explosions.
The Mountain of Eden (talk) 18:26, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - There are relatively fewer mentions of explosions in Syria in the media and the target remains Lebanese Hezbollah (not to be confused with Iraqi Hezbollah). The fact that Lebanese Hezbollah has a presence in Syria and as such some pager explosions also happened in Syria, is insignificant and likely a coincidence caused by the explosions being indiscriminate. RisingTzar (talk) 19:48, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose for this proposed title; the overwhelming majority of the pagers were in Lebanon, as RS coverage has proven. I strongly support this article's move to the title of 2024 Lebanon pagers attack; this is a state-terrorist attack, not an "explosion." Makeandtoss (talk) 20:00, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Makeandtoss Apart from Twitter who else is calling it a state-terrorist attack? Prodrummer619 (talk) 20:05, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Scholars will eventually describe it for what it is, a state-terrorist attack. Aside from the description, the proposed title of 2024 Lebanon pagers attack is currently supported by RS: [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] Makeandtoss (talk) 20:16, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:CRYSTALBALL. We don’t go off of what you or anyone here thinks will “eventually” happen. If you’re going to continue calling it a “terrorist attack” here that shows you don’t want to contribute in good faith but only to push your POV. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 20:42, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No one said we will or we should; I clearly and explicitly differentiated between the descriptor (terrorist attack), and the title (attack); the latter is the topic of discussion here. As for the lack of assumption of good faith and the ad hominem, I will not respond to that. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:02, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am wary of titles with the word 'attack' in them because it is not always clear if the subject was attacked, or was doing the attacking; explosions rings more like the former. Havradim leaf a message 14:44, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See my comment below, where I suggest using both terms. Havradim leaf a message 02:34, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here are more RS that use the word "attack": Guardian,Axios, WSJ.VR (Please ping on reply) 07:23, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose proposed title, would support a title similar to 2024 Hezbollah pager explosions to remove the country (since it occurred in at least 2 countries) as recommended above, but there’s unlikely to be enough emphasis on that proposed title here to prevent another RM from being necessary for that title specifically. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 20:44, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support this. DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 07:42, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose and second other proposals to rename this to 2024 Hezbollah pager explosions. While there were explosions in Syria and Iraq, this batch of pagers were ordered specifically for Hezbollah operations and handed out to Hezbollah members annd involved officials.
Amayorov (talk) 09:41, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support 2024 Hezbollah wireless device explosions or 2024 Hezbollah communication device explosions per the recent developments. Arab News The Guardian Prodrummer619 (talk) 14:51, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But few sources are calling it "wireless device explosions", they are instead referring to the second wave as "walkie-talkies"[12] or "handheld radios"[13]. Maybe September 2024 Lebanon explosions?VR (Please ping on reply) 15:23, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are now reports of solar systems exploding[14] in homes.VR (Please ping on reply) 17:17, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support new title; "2024 Hezbollah pager explosions" It's clear these attacks are targeting a group and not a country. Completely Random Guy (talk) 15:29, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Explosions of different devices (mostly communication devices) are now being reported. It might be ideal to wait until the reports are more concrete, as I think one page covering both incidents would make more sense, and a different title would be needed to accurately reflect the subject. Mooonswimmer 15:41, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It occurred on a larger scale in Lebanon and was directed at Hezbollah, which is headquartered there. EpicAdventurer (talk) 16:27, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose and it should instead be renamed to 2024 Lebanon pager attack Lebanon electronics attack (with or without year), as WP:RS are stating that Israel was the active perpetrator of this attack. Using the word explosions in the article title is akin to renaming the September 11 attacks article to "September 11 explosions." JasonMacker (talk) 16:39, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think your suggestion is better than mine and I have updated my comment to reflect that.--JasonMacker (talk) 19:01, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think Lebanon electronics attack seems like the best title at this time.VR (Please ping on reply) 19:39, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed Kowal2701 (talk) 21:10, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
मल्ल and Vice regent, this title leaves out Syria. Anyway, the countries of Lebanon and Syria per se were not the intended targets, although that is where the attacks occurred. Your title is a bit ambiguous, as though Lebanon could be the one conducting the electronics attack against another party. I could see maybe Attacks on Hezbollah electronic device users (see the redirect Attacks on Hezbollah leaders). 'Hezbollah' casts a wide net, including fighters, politicians, party members and social workers, whether the latter groups were specifically targeted or not. I believe all reliable sources mention the Hezbollah angle in their reporting. Havradim leaf a message 21:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Though a little wordy, this seems to be the best suggestion so far. Arcturus95 (talk) 22:30, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its not about who the target was - which is disputed anyway - but about where it happened. Can you take a look at WP:NCWWW? It suggests we name an event by "when, where, what" happened. There "where" is primarily Lebanon.VR (Please ping on reply) 23:20, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Leaving out Syria in the article's title is fine. Vietnam war leaves out the fact that the war also took place in Cambodia. The goal of the article title is simply to refer to the primary location of the subject, and in this case its Lebanon. JasonMacker (talk) 00:04, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
After re-reading WP:NCWWW, I think Lebanon exploding electronic device attacks might be appropriate. Attacks without some mention of explosions — a term that is highly mentioned in sources — seems a bit vague. Electronic devices do not simply attack people, so exploding in the title is a useful term for this highly unusual and unlikely to be repeated in Lebanon anytime soon event, per WP:CRYSTAL. Electronic covers solar panels, which as of now seem to have been involved (otherwise, mobile device would be better). See the following sources:
Havradim leaf a message 00:58, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I think @Kind Tennis Fan's title is perfect. FloridaMan21 22:28, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: our naming convention WP:NCWWW suggests we name things according to "when, where and what", although sometimes we can drop the "when" if not needed. In this case, the "where" is either "Lebanon" or "Lebanon-Syria" and this is simply undisputed. Replacing the where with "Hezbollah" is problematic for a few reasons:
    • If there was a target, then the intended target of the first round of explosions alone is disputed (see Talk:2024 Lebanon pager explosions#Target below). No one officially claimed responsibility. In the second round of explosions, it becomes even more tenuous to say the solar panel explosions were targeted against Hezbollah.
    • Multiple RS have reported that the explosions were not targeted but "indiscriminate"[24][25][26].
    • "Hezbollah device explosions" is ambiguous, as if Hezbollah was the perpetrator, which is false.VR (Please ping on reply) 23:30, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, location is preferred precisely because having an organisation name is always ambiguous as to whether it it subject or object. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:17, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose proposed title, but support 2024 Hezbollah pager explosions, which is still the WP:COMMONNAME in the media as of right now. Removing the year is an exception rather than the norm per the naming convention WP:NCWWW, and we lack the historical perspective mentioned in the guideline to have the year removed. Usually we try to keep the year unless the event can easily be described without it, which only a handful of articles for well known world events usually end up qualifying for. Pilaz (talk) 00:15, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    But WP:NCWWW, the policy you quote, says we should use the place, which would indicate either "Lebanon" or "Lebanon-Syria".VR (Please ping on reply) 00:49, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Very minor spillover of operatives in Syria doesn't justify a name change.Spilia4 (talk) 00:37, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose this, but also support the alternative of a move to 2024 Hezbollah pager explosions — The Anome (talk) 03:11, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • We can dodge the Lebanon vs. Syria question by specifying "Hezbollah" since that was the target, regardless of which country the victims were in. Since the second wave of the attack involved other mobile devices, I suggest changing "pager" to "mobile device." We don't need a year in the title because it's a unique event. If it happens again we can add a year to disambiguate. Perhaps Hezbollah mobile device explosions would be most accurate. Jehochman Talk 03:34, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: The current title is perfectly adequate at this stage, and reflects the natural and recognisable language that people will be searching for. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:20, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: We want people to easily find the page, right? Keep it succinct. There's a case for using the word 'attack' in lieu of explosions. Oathed (talk) 05:30, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose:, but support 2024 Hezbollah pager explosions as was suggested by others. Hogo-2020 (talk) 06:46, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: I don't think the title should include other areas since Lebanon was the major target. Had an overview of the comments and realized some users are suggesting to include Hezbollah in the title which I oppose. To prove it, I made a quick search without including Lebanon in my keywords and the result is indicating that the tile with Lebanon is the WP:COMMONNAME in the media. --Mhhossein talk 09:11, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment pager is outdated. Oppose inclusion of Syria as it appears Lebanon is primarily affected. Borgenland (talk) 09:16, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Timeline of explosions

Referenced Reuters article states that the explosions lasted for an hour, not simultaneously. 12.196.187.18 (talk) 17:16, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect we'll be waiting a while for clarity given the pace of reporting, but at the moment I'm seeing reports of an initial wave of near-simultaneous explosions, followed by a smaller number of explosions occurring over roughly one hour. (It would make sense for Israel to aim for simultaneity; maintaining the element of surprise for maximum effect.) I'll review the available sources. GhostOfNoMan 18:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

lithium batteries

We're currently speculating that the lithium batteries exploded, but that's contradicted by the cited AP article which says: “A lithium ion battery fire is one thing, but I’ve never seen one explode like that. It looks like a small explosive charge” Maybe we should remove the speculation about lithium batteries. Uhoj (talk) 19:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We have a source that mentions lithium batteries as source for the explosion. Until we have information to rule this out, it should stay. PS. Reports are that the exploding pager is a "Gold Alpha Pager 924" from "Apollo Systems".[29] This device is powered by AAA batteries.[30] The compromised device would still need to work until detonated, which speaks in favor of a battery explosion. If the AAA batteries are lihium ion and compromised to e.g. be made without pressure relief vents, and to start a thermal runaway if their charging current exceeds a given threshold, then this could well lead to the observed effect. At least, this cannot be ruled out at this stage. Lklundin (talk) 19:57, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's fine to keep the news media speculation about batteries in the article at present, but no, it's impossible. All the devices exploded nearly simultaneously, with seemingly the same strength. Did everybody keep their pagers fully charged? Also, editors here should keep in mind that is is to the benefit of whoever pulled this off that plenty of misinformation floods the zone. Abductive (reasoning) 20:43, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Our article claims the pagers were also recently imported there might have been limited time to notice mild unexpected behaviour. Nil Einne (talk) 03:06, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Um, your link states that the 924 has a "lithium battery backup" that presumably would be kept fully charged by the AAA batteries. Warren Platts (talk) 11:56, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, it's looks pretty definite now according to a NYT article [31]. The pagers are from Taiwan and Israel tampered with them adding 1-2oz. of explosive material near the battery plus a switch. At 3:30pm, a message was sent out that activated the switch causing all of them to explode, according to some "anonymous US officials." They also report that cyber security experts say it probably was explosives.

For what it's worth, CNN is quoting cybersecurity experts who are doubting the lithium battery theory and are theorizing that explosives were somehow inserted into thousands of pagers. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 21:31, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]


What is the source for the battery drivel, anyway? It's shown as "citation needed" now, but if I'm not mistaken, before it was indicating the AP News article, which just doesn't mention any of that. I think it should be removed, sources get old quickly with these events. LjL (talk) 01:48, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

500 lost eyesight -- dubious

This claim that 500 people lost their eyesight has to be false. Even if 500 people did lose their eyesight, there is no way that extremely busy doctors and hospitals (150 hospitals, according to the article) could examine that many patients, assess the damage to their eyes, and report to (where, the health ministry?) that 500 people are now permanently blind, in the short time since the explosions. Moreover, it doesn't gibe with the number of deaths; there should be many more deaths or fewer lost eyes. Abductive (reasoning) 20:51, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm removing it because whether or not it is true, it is a body detail and not a lead detail. We already mention that Hezbollah members were injured; the specific need to focus on them getting blinded feels to me like gloating. Atubofsilverware (talk) 20:58, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV Background

The article currently connects the Israel-Lebanon conflict to the Israel-Hamas war in a very one-sided way. It mentions the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel, but doesn't mention the Israeli bombing of the Gaza Strip and the invasion. The statement selectively quotes the source, as the source itself says Hezbollah’s leader, Hassan Nasrallah, has stressed the armed group is ready, but not eager, for war. He says if there is a ceasefire agreed in Gaza, Hezbollah will cease fire too, immediately. Indeed in another source, "If there is a ceasefire in Gaza, we will stop without any discussion," Hezbollah's deputy leader, Sheikh Naim Kassem, said in an interview with The Associated Press at the group's political office in Beirut's southern suburbs.[32]. That article, written in July, also points out that that 37,900 Palestinians have been killed in Israel's invasion. This is probably the most salient aspect of the Israel-Hamas war.

I added the death of 40,000 Palestinians, but this too was removed. Other RS have also mentioned the Palestinian death toll when mentioning Hezbollah's rationale for fighting. For example: Hezbollah says its attacks aim to support the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, where nearly 18,000 people – most of them women and children – have been killed by Israel in two months. Al Jazeera Dec 2023 A war between the militant Palestinian group and Israeli forces that so far has killed more than 19,000 Palestinians, most of them women and children, according to Gaza's health ministry. Israel says about 1,200 people were killed in the Oct. 7 attack. After the Gaza war started, Hezbollah responded by attacking Israeli targets in northern Israel. NPR December 2023 Indeed, in a BBC interview, Hezbollah's deputy leader has referred to "Israel is increasing its aggression against civilians and killing more women and children" as his rationale for fighting.

VR (Please ping on reply) 21:04, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As a side note – it was, at one point, completely incorrect about the timeline: it incorrectly suggested Hezbollah began their attacks in response to Israel's ground invasion of Gaza, when in reality Hezbollah began their attacks against Israel on 8 October, one day after Hamas' incursion, in "solidarity".
Right now, that section is essentially just a summary with the same information as the lead of Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present). Does adding death counts from Gaza really make that section more neutral? GhostOfNoMan 21:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip encompasses all Israeli attacks against Gaza on and since October 7 (check the article please). And certainly the Israeli bombing of the Gaza Strip started on Oct 7 itself. Hezbollah has repeatedly called for "solidarity" with Palestinians, including women and children, as sources show above. Omitting the death count does make the section non-neutral and just because NPOV is violated elsewhere, doesn't mean it should be violated here too.VR (Please ping on reply) 21:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hezbollah obviously weren't reacting to an invasion that hadn't begun yet. See Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip#Invasion, the invasion didn't begin on October 7 no matter what the infobox date is, hence the note attached. If the article said Hezbollah were reacting to the "Israeli invasion" that's incredibly misleading to readers. There was no invasion on the 7th or 8th. The article did say something like that when I looked earlier. Now it's a clear timeline 2A04:4A43:52BF:ECDE:782E:7BC6:9B97:57B7 (talk) 22:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is the Israeli bombing of the Gaza Strip not a prelude to the invasion? In any case, would you support the change with term "bombing" instead of "invasion"? VR (Please ping on reply) 22:35, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Still can't retcon in a death toll that didn't exist on October 8. PrimaPrime (talk) 00:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No one is trying to do that, but rather indicate a death toll that was true on the eve of the pager attack.VR (Please ping on reply) 12:22, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Which is irrelevant to the reason Hizballah began attacking Israel on October 8. PrimaPrime (talk) 15:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But its relevant to why the Israel-Hezbollah conflict continues.VR (Please ping on reply) 19:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"According to the ACLED, from 7 October 2023 to 6 September 2024, Israel attacked Lebanon 7,845 times. Hezbollah and other Lebanese forces attacked Israel 1,768 times." I can't see a rationale for putting this in the article, other than to make Israel look bad. "Attack" isn't defined, and the sentence doesn't explain why the conflict continues, or any reason for this attack. — BerryForPerpetuity (talk) 01:57, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Trim the background. All the details can be in the other article. no need for expansive "context" that triggers disupute when the real article is about yesterday's events.Sportsnut24 (talk) 03:26, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's one paragraph on the background, summarized from the main article and hardly seems excessive. And the last line's "6,124 Israeli vs. 1,258 Lebanese attacks" (yes, sourced) casts as much bad light on Israel as is necessary. Remove the tag. Moscow Mule (talk) 04:47, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Provocation

"...Hezbollah, then unprovoked, joined the conflict in support of Hamas... declaring that it would not stop attacks against Israel until Israel stops military operations and attacks in Gaza" - Does this not imply that Israel's "military operations and attacks in Gaza" provoked Hezbollah? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:27, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is very, very POV to say that attacks on Israel are unprovoked, given its 56 year long occupation of the Palestinians. Hezbollah has specifically stated its acting in solidarity with Palestinians.VR (Please ping on reply) 12:17, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we need to address provocation in Wikipedia voice because that's not our job. Our statements should be dry, free of moral judgement. We can report what each each side has said, and what other countries have said, with proper attribution. This is how disputed things can be rendered into indisputable facts. For example, "Hamas said X" is a fact when properly verified, whether or not X is true. Jehochman Talk 02:46, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. It's not our place to judge provocation, and doing so clearly violates NPOV. Acebulf (talk | contribs) 05:22, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"unprovoked" seems to have since been removed.[33] —Bagumba (talk) 07:59, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gold pager

BBC News (television, in UK) is reporting that the pagers involved (or some of them) were "Gold" brand. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

more on pager source Tule-hog (talk) 07:33, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gold Apollo AR-924 Pager

Add the model of the pager as the Gold Apollo AR-924 model of pagers. Sources for this are https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/artc-exploding-hezbollah-devices-reportedly-issued-in-recent-days https://www.wired.com/story/pager-explosion-hezbollah/ https://en.royanews.tv/news/54236 Cyrogigabyte (talk) 21:11, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Atubofsilverware (talk) 21:28, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 September 2024 (2)

Change "Golf Golf Apollo AR-924" to "Gold Apollo AR-924" Giammarco Ferrari (talk) 23:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Chomik! (talk?) 23:50, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 September 2024 (3)

Change Golf to gold. There is a spelling mistake stating "Golf Apollo AR-924" when it should be Gold Apollo AR-924 Herefordarkmode (talk) 23:47, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Chomik! (talk?) 23:49, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 September 2024 (2)

Insert the Wikilink to Gold Apollo AR924 Giammarco Ferrari (talk) 00:11, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Targets

Currently the infobox says the target was "Hezbollah militants". I'm not sure if this is accurate as Hezbollah is comprised of both militants and civilians (it is also a political party). Further, Hezbollah has said the attack also targeted civilians and this allegation is notable enough to have been quoted in several reliable secondary sources: ABC News, Global News, Washington Post etc. So the infobox should also say "Civilians (per Hezbollah)".VR (Please ping on reply) 21:16, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, ABC News itself is cautious on the targets[34] "It appeared that many of those hit were members of Hezbollah, but it was not immediately clear if others also carried the pagers."
Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert, the UN special coordinator for Lebanon also condemned the attack, justifying her condemnation by adding, "In accordance with international humanitarian law, she reminds all concerned actors that civilians are not a target and must be protected at all times. Even one civilian casualty is one too many"[35]. VR (Please ping on reply) 21:20, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support for saying the target is "unknown" or "either Hezbollah members or civilians" Atubofsilverware (talk) 21:34, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We shouldn't include "or civilians" based on a Hezbollah claim alone. We would need an independent source, preferably one without clear biases. — xDanielx T/C\R 05:16, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We generally include IDF claims if they have been presented in multiple reliable, secondary sources, and we should do the same thing here. WP:NPOV means we don't take sides, but explain them.VR (Please ping on reply) 05:39, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think any source has really disputed that Hezbollah was the target? Some sources seem to suggest that the attack did not specifically target Hezbollah militants, but some broader group of Hezbollah members including some civilians.
So listing the target as "Hezbollah" seems pretty uncontroversial. Hezbollah's accusation of targeting civilians lacks elaboration and seems much more dubious, but yes it's fine to mention somewhere in the body with attribution. — xDanielx T/C\R 17:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Hezbollah militants" is certainly questionable. Are we to believe only militants carry pagers? Hezbollah has teachers, medics, social workers, news crews and journalists, etc. I don't know to what extent this attack was indiscriminate (perhaps Israel intercepted communications and filtered targets, but I doubt it), but to list the target as "Hezbollah militants" right out of the gate seems wrong, to me. "Hezbollah members" is more fitting, and covers both militants and civilians. GhostOfNoMan 22:15, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, we are to believe that only militants carried a special pager. Why would a teacher or a social work need a pager, rather than using an ordinary smartphone? Perhaps if you can think of a rationale for them to need this kind of security you can change it, otherwise militants is accurate. Ariel. (talk) 04:30, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These pagers are apparently also carrier by healthcare workers: The Lebanese Health Ministry "has also urged healthcare workers and others with pagers to discard them."[36]
The Lebanese Health Minister also stated "The vast majority of the people who are presenting to the emergency rooms are in civilian clothes, so it's very difficult to discern whether they belong to a certain entity like Hezbollah or others But we are seeing among them people who are old or people who are very young, like the child who unfortunately died... and there are some of them who are healthcare workers".VR (Please ping on reply) 04:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Author Dyab Abou Jahjah pointed out that many of the pagers that exploded were not just owned by Hezbollah fighters, but civilians that are employed by Hezbollah's institutions."[37] VR (Please ping on reply) 05:07, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The evidence just keeps piling up: Mohammad Barakat, a journalist known for his strong opposition to Hezbollah...shared a clip from one of his appearances on VDL 24, where he stressed that the attack targeted not only Hezbollah members but also civilians, in an indiscriminate manner.[38]
Professor Toby Walsh of the UNSW School of Computer Science and Engineering points out that it is impossible for the IDF to track a pager, thus "It's a very indiscriminate attack, because you might put the pager down in your desk, and as we have heard from reports there were various innocent people who were injured by this". VR (Please ping on reply) 05:38, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is security camera footage public domain in Lebanon?

If so, adding a video would improve this article. FunLater (talk) 21:54, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good question. And if it's not, then we should consider adding one under WP:NFCC. Sdkb talk 22:49, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's probably a discussion about this somewhere on Commons. Sdkb talk 22:50, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:MCQ is an excellent place to ask. Plenty of knowledgeable people there. Mjroots (talk) 05:45, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I started a discussion there. FunLater (talk) 10:20, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 September 2024

I believe the explosive behind the explosion was Pentaerythritol Tetranitrate (PETN). [39]; [40]; [41]; [42]. Cyrogigabyte (talk) 00:06, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done. That may well be true, or maybe not. But the sources listed above are either speculating or are unreliable (Daily Wire in particular). Cullen328 (talk) 06:42, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Militants were being paged to warn them of the explosions

It is being reported that, following the first wave of attacks, the network was paged with the message "احذر. قد ينفجر جهازك", which translates loosely as "Beware. Your device might explode.", and moments later the device did indeed explode. Flusapochterasumesch (talk) 00:09, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To add to article

To add to this article: how many people are in critical condition due to the pager explosions. Various news sources report the number as approximately 200 or "hundreds." 98.123.38.211 (talk) 01:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV tag

@Nice4What: you removed the NPOV tag saying "NPOV issue has been resolved – background section was shortened". But the discussion regarding NPOV is still ongoing and the contested content is still in the background section, whereas the content that some want to insert is still not in the background. Furthermore there are two other NPOV discussions above on the targets and whether to include the death of a child, esp in the infobox.

Can you please self revert?VR (Please ping on reply) 05:43, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored the tag, as evidenced by ongoing NPOV issue discussions both above this section and below.VR (Please ping on reply) 12:16, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Could you remove the NPOV tag now? It seems like the issue has been resolved. Jehochman Talk 02:53, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Taiwan comment

[43]Sportsnut24 (talk) 08:12, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Already has been added. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 09:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
However, should it be shifted to the responses rection? --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 09:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's more an investigation. Albeit Taipei did comment. Sportsnut24 (talk) 11:11, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Attack

The fact that this is an Israeli attack is now confirmed by RS like CNN: Israel behind deadly pager explosions that targeted Hezbollah and injured thousands in Lebanon => "Hezbollah has vowed to respond to an Israeli attack.." and "CNN has learned the explosions were the result of a joint operation between Israel’s intelligence service, Mossad, and the Israeli military. While the Israeli military has said it will not comment on the explosions, both Lebanon and Hezbollah have blamed it for the attack." So why was attack removed from the opening sentence? Makeandtoss (talk) 09:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, pretty much all RS are treating as an attack, including the famous Israeli journalist Barak Ravid[44].VR (Please ping on reply) 12:09, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also emphasis on an Israeli attack and not just attack. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:11, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Martinevans123: There is no need for attribution, this has been accepted as fact by CNN, to cite one example. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:21, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I assume you are referring to this edit? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:30, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Martinevans123: Yes. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As this article is under "active arbitration", do I need to self-revert? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:18, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Another editor has now slightly altered it, so I will leave it as it is. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:35, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Martinevans123: There are no restrictions on self-reverting. The slight altering by the other editor did not change the presence of the redundant attribution. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:20, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's still there. So some other editor(s) must think it's useful? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:28, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Martinevans123: Not necessarily, and even if that was the case, they would have joined in on this discussion. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:29, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have no strong view. I was simply trying to improve what was there before. If you think it's unnecessary, you could remove it. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:33, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Then I will remove it given that there is no opposition. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:36, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what this had to do with the original subject of this discussion thread. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:45, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Iran

Why is the Iranian reaction under "Other governments", when its diplomatic staff were among the victims? Can a Farsi speaker please look at sources in that language, for more?

Have other countries or organisations commented on this specific aspect of the attack? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:57, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Terrorism

WP:ECR ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:28, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This should be called what it is - a terrorist bombing attack targetting civilians in a sovereign country. 2A02:A03F:63DE:5701:CA3D:574C:9F7D:AE0E (talk) 10:08, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Bombing attack" might be a little misleading? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:19, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please see MOS:TERRORIST, and provide indpeendent, reliable sources supporting this PoV. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:20, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No evidence or reason to believe the attack targetted civilians, every reason to believe it targetted Hezbollah members.
Also it's a bit of an overstatement to describe Lebanon as a "sovereign country". KronosAlight (talk) 12:23, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gold Apollo AR924 article

There's a section on this incident on Gold Apollo AR924. Please watch-list it, and see that facts and statistics are updated as necessary, when updated here. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:22, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When did the pager deliveries occur?

Perhaps this is not known. But it seems to be a key detail in the entire story. If this is known, I think it belongs in the lead and I am somewhat baffled as to why the {when} tag has been removed, with the edit summary: "it is not needed to specify when this was discovered, because the NYT was asking around people when it happened. Remove template." Martinevans123 (talk) 12:48, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We now have: "in months prior to the explosion", which seems to add very little, i.e. any time in the 7 months between February, when the warning over cell phones was issued, and when the explosions occurred? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:50, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We now have: "which were recently imported into Lebanon", which is very similar to the previous. I assume this has not been reliably reported, but may be in the coming days. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:18, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IRGC may have been killed

Should this article be trusted? https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-820674 NesserWiki (talk) 14:05, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

JP not listed at WP:RSP and is described as centre, so probably safe. But source is Israeli Army Radio? So not too sure about that. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That was my concern in terms of neutrality.
Are the 19 IRGC deaths now included in the death toll? NesserWiki (talk) 22:30, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Solar panels, etc

I just added this to lead paragraphs, but it is not yet confirmed that any reports of solar panel or other device explosions are actually self-detonating, or just catching fire from walkie talkie explosions.[45] The fog of some people thinking this is the case is very understandable, but I'm not seeing videos of such devices exploding on their own yet in any reporting.--Milowent • hasspoken 17:55, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the mention from the lead, pending better sourcing: a single breaking news report claiming solar panels exploded isn't sufficient to say that they were targeted. Elli (talk | contribs) 19:56, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Solar panels explosion was stated by the Lebanese government official news agency:
https://www.nna-leb.gov.lb/ar/justice-law/722390/اصابة-فتاة-في-المروانية-جراء-انفجار-نظام-الطاقة-ال Stephan rostie (talk) 20:13, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Icom V82

That model was discontinued in 2014.(Rtrs) Icom has an advisory about counterfeits, calling "special attention" to the discontinued V82.(Icom) So it sounds like they bought Chinese counterfeits, which are readily available from disreputable internet sellers.[46] Pending confirmation in a WP:RS, we should reword the references to the radios more carefully. Moscow Mule (talk) 20:57, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

“I can guarantee you they were not our products,” said ... a senior sales manager for Icom’s amateur radio division, in an interview Wednesday. (AP) Moscow Mule (talk) 21:41, 18 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Addition of possible IP protected material

This edit by @Acratopotes is potentially an IP violation and also potentially slanderous (if the depicted individual survives) given no RS have positively identified the person as a Hezbollah member. I removed the image for now, but I hope that someone with more expertise can step in. https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/User:Acratopotes Dreameditsbrooklyn (talk) 01:14, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Dreameditsbrooklyn I am moving the file to another title on commons per Criterion 5 for now, and filing a CSD as well. – robertsky (talk) 02:38, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And RevDel'ed per RD2 here, [47]. – robertsky (talk) 02:54, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What exploded in the second wave

There are multiple reliable reports of other electronics explosions other than walki talkie:

Home solar panels : National News Agency (lebanese government official news agency)


Fingerprint biometric devices: BBC


cars and homes radios: Asharq News


yet,for some reason two editors removed the sourced contents purely based on personal preferences or their own OR without providing any reliable source that counters or denies these sources.

@PrimaPrime removed the content report by the lebanese government official news agency that states that explosions of home solar panels took place arguing: “ Solar water heater incident looks unrelated” (Pure OR)


While @David O. Johnson removed the report by Asharq News arguing: “Removed poorly sourced YouTube ref and related info” (probably didn’t notice that this youtube source was from Asharq news Agency)


I am pretty sure this is not how wikipedia works.

Stephan rostie (talk) 07:01, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality tag

There is a Neutrality tag that has been added to the top of the article, yet nothing here on the Talk page that is articulating what is non-neutral about the current article. If there is something specific, then a section tag or inline tag would help other editors know what the concern is. But if nothing is identified that can be addressed, then the tag should be removed. Cheers. N2e (talk) 10:49, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Timing

@Martinevans123: Why do you think the timing is so important as to be in the opening sentence? 9/11 page does not mention the timing in the first sentence or first paragraph, and MOS:OPEN highlights that the opening should be as general as possible without giving too much details. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:47, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it could find many examples of disasters' attacks where the time of day is included in the first sentence, but then WP:OSE. I'd suggest that the simultaneity of such a widespread series of explosions confers added significance to a single time. But perhaps it could be moved down slightly. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:53, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Martinevans123: I can't think of any; and MOS:OPEN states: "The first paragraph should define or identify the topic with a neutral point of view, but without being too specific". Mentioning the time of day in the hours and minutes is too specific and distracts the reader. Also MOS:FIRST: "Do not overload the first sentence by describing everything notable about the subject." I already had moved it down to the second lede paragraph. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:58, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh yes, so you did. Thanks for telling me. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:16, 19 September 2024 (UTC) p.s. the September 11 attacks didn't happen all at once, so I'm not surprised a single time is not given there.[reply]
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