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It wouldn't be the first time, any editor(s) converted articles (or article titles) from english to another language :( [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 18:59, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
It wouldn't be the first time, any editor(s) converted articles (or article titles) from english to another language :( [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] ([[User talk:GoodDay|talk]]) 18:59, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}
{{archive bottom}}
*[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSlHnSzFLBw When Hungarian translators go wrong]. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 10:06, 19 November 2019 (UTC) (And see also [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxj_qrhM_k4].) (And especially also [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/6262709/Hitler-Downfall-parodies-25-worth-watching.html].)
== JohnReed 1917 ==
== JohnReed 1917 ==
Revision as of 10:13, 19 November 2019
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Lazy-restless caught my attention after he had made this comment, and his history on Wikipedia shows that he has been trying to push a WP:FRINGE theory, which claims that Muhammad is a messiah of Hinduism. So far it is clear that Lazy-restless has no idea what is WP:RS, WP:SPS, WP:FRINGE and WP:BATTLE.
I just looked a bit more through their editing history. That, and their latest edits/comments suggest someone clueless about the Vedas, when Bhagavat Purana was written, etc. That is not the problem here though, as we don't expect editors to be experts in the subject or field they are contributing. The problem is the repeated disregard for our content guidelines, repeated use of questionable and fringe sources in topic areas that are sensitive/controversial/provocative. Possibly a WP:NOTHERE who should move their attention to subjects/topics other than Indian religions, broadly construed. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:07, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Proposed topic ban
Another problem with this user's edits seems to be quotation farming.[2] I support a topic ban from religion since the problem is wider than just Hindu-Muslim relations subject. Aman Kumar Goel(Talk)18:52, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That is problematic. I favor a warning, rather than a topic ban as an incremental step to let them learn / reform.@Lazy-restless: Why this recent massive WP:QUOTEFARM-ing of primary sources here, without a cite to any WP:RS? Would you be willing to self-revert please, and instead focus on summarizing scholarly sources such as this. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:31, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Topic ban from religion and from sexuality indefinitely,[updated] or even block. I've dealt with this user before and they are a pusher of fringe viewpoints. For example, here, after misinterpreting a scientific study, he said All your edit attempts based on sexuality and orientation seems pseudointellectual to me. and pointed to some preacher's blog as justification. In this talk page discussion he wants to use centuries old Christian sermons as sources, and he points to a YouTube video and claims the articles, either theoritical or informative, about homosexuality in English wikipedia tend to be too much influenced by homosexuality-friendly western notion's point of view.
The AfDs and other evidence above show he has been doing this for years. The first AfD is from 2014. (He used to be "Sharif uddin".) He's also made a bunch of edits to LGBT in Islam which I never had time to look over. It's clear that he does push fringe theories, and that this is an ongoing pattern of behavior which he is not stopping despite what others say. He's already had the chance to reform and has not. In my experience such users often succeed in placing their poorly sourced POV content in a few places where it remains for years, because those places weren't scrutinized, so we need to prevent any further damage from him continuing to do so. -Crossroads- (talk) 17:38, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've updated my proposed topic ban to include sexuality and to be indefinite based on the evidence below and on thinking it over. Since this has been ongoing for so long, and they have over and over again, many times, been admonished by others and yet not changed their overall behavior, I see no benefit from this being temporary. It just means he can then resume the behavior with the possibility no one will notice and more damage can be done, and that someone must put forth effort to notice and to bring him back here. -Crossroads- (talk) 17:08, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Topic ban from sexuality and from religion. Lazy-restless is one of our more problematic editors, on both religious and sexual topics. He, for example, will add a bunch of text that shouldn't be added, disregard WP:due, repeatedly commit copyright violations, engage in WP:Synthesis, misrepresent sources, and edit war. His talk page extensively documents these and other problems, as seen here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here. These examples span years. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:46, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support a time-limited topic ban per Flyer22 Reborn, say 1 to 3 months (I have struck out my earlier "favor warning" preference, in light of the evidence presented and their continued more-of-the-same editing without responding to my question above); if they repeat after the sanctioned period, recommend indef. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:20, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The problems with this editor continue, as their edits to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion prove, and to Islah, which they turned into a quotefarm. Other indicators of their inability to work on a collaborative project is a total lack of edit summaries. They seem to have a really, really hard time with copyright, and it's funny to see how many times they were warned for messing with various sexuality templates. Finally, of course, they never bothered to show up here to discuss matters, and as it turns out they've been warned many a time, and blocked three times for various kinds of uncollaborativeness. So, I propose we have had enough of this, and I am going to block indefinitely for a combination of disruptive editing, refusal to communicate, original research, edit warring, and, in the end, incompetence. Drmies (talk) 03:10, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Despite all of the one-sided personal attacks, WP:HOUNDING, badgering and bad faith that has been occurring against me in the discussion, I have remained calm and civil throughout. There's not much I can do about what another user chooses to type. Not sure why the above is phrased in plural form using the word "colleagues", as I have not engaged in any personal attacks, hounding, badgering or name-calling whatsoever that require "getting a handle on". Hopefully the user who has solely been engaging in these activities against me will calm down. North America100007:29, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The problem there is that User:Northamerica1000 is engaged in a sustained exercise of gaming the system, which includes:
systematic and repeated misrepresentation of other editors
repeatedly citing as guidance a page which they themselves asked not be a guideline
using sneaky and stealthy editing techniques to hide severe POV-pushing
refusing offers to collaborate on RFCs to resolve susbstantive issues
repeatedly posting demonstrable falsehoods across multiple discussions (the most of extreme of which led me finally decided to call a spade a spade, and explicitly call them "either a liar or an idiot")
That MFD is yet another venue for a sustained baiting exercise by NA1K, who has deployed similar techniques many times before. The pattern is that NA1K engages in a sustained pattern of verbosely posting faleshoods, deceptions and failures of reasoning; and then howls "personal attack! hounding!" when called out on their lies and idiocy.
I stand by my description of NA1K as either a liar or an idiot, or both.
I have never before seen on Wikipedia any admin attempt to game system as brazenly as NA1K has here:
call for a Wikipedia guideline to be delisted, and downgraded to a failed proposal
then cite that same failed proposal in defence of POV-pushing, ... and when challenged on that duplicity, dig deeper trying pompous word-play to create a synonym for "guideline": schema for advisement
This is not social media. We are here to build an encyclopedia. That is an intellectual process which requires both honesty and integrity, and the ability to engage in rational discussion. NA1K's conduct repeatedly reveals some sort of severe deficiency of that combination, and it reached its peak at the Transport MFD. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 14:23, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As seen above we really need a stop to the harassment and attacks. Hard for the rest of us to move forward when we have an admin going out of there way to be disputive and block any conversation about the topic.--Moxy🍁15:10, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Moxy, the admin going out of there way to be disputive and block any conversation about the topic is NA1K.
NA1K has repeatedly refused my requests to collaborate on RFCs to resolve the issues. That's the only blocking of any conversation.
The disruption is NA1K's attempts to game the system, which includes: their sneaky list additions, their stealthy conversions of portals to a "black box" format, their persistent failure to consult or even notify WikiProjects, their creation of massively POV lists, ... and most brazenly, their attempt to cite as a guideline a page which they themself had demanded by de-listed as a guideline. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 15:21, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above response makes it clear to me BHG has no intention of stopping the personal attacks, so long as they believe that they are justified in their position. WaltCip (talk) 15:30, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am concerned Brown is not aware of what others are seeing for the past few months. There have been numerous RFC attempts to help to define portals and there content by third parties all ending because of Brown's involvement. In many cases out right attacks on the proposers based on Brown's POV of a perceived bias of the questions being discussed.--Moxy🍁16:29, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, like that RFC where Moxy made a thoroughly bad faith proposal to delete all portals, knowing that such a crude binary would be rejected, all just so they could claim misrepresent it as the community deciding not to delete portals?
Of course I denounced Moxy for that attempt to game the system. It was a shabby stunt, which rightly failed. WP:RFC says that RFCs should be framed around a neutral question, preferably agreed by both sides ... and the portal crew has doe far too much of these pointy RFCs. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 22:44, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't tolerate violations of WP:NPA, nor should anyone. BHG is harassing and personally attacking Northamerica1000, and should be given a short-term block for that. And given their behavior in this incident and others, I think a topic ban is in order. ɱ(talk)05:16, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A central RfC to decide the objective criteria for closure of moribund or dormant portals and setting clear expectations for the level of activity required to keep a portal alive, allowing for removal of cruft with less drama and forestalling third-party gaming.
Addendum: Also a process for gaining consensus before creating a new portal, as uncontrolled creation seems to have been a large part of the root cause.
A moratorium on portal deletions pending the central RfC.
Lemme try to get this clear, Guy. Are you proposing a topic ban on me because I have been "uncivil" to an admin who has been, as you acknowledge, gaming the system, and who has repeatedly refused my requests to collaborate on opening RFCs to resolve the issues? --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 13:42, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Guy, it is never a good look to create a false equivalence between an editor who is sytematically gaming the system, and the editor who challenges the misconduct. That approach stacks the field in favour of the gamer.
Note that in this case, as in previous encounters with NA!K, I gave them ample opportunity to stop their gaming. I have also proposed RFCs to resolve the substantive issues, which NA1K has repeatedly refused. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 14:29, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know about false equivalence. But your behaviour has been horrible from the tiny amount I've seen when it's made it to ANI. I mean saying Northamerica1000 has "low intelligence" is just one example of how terrible your behaviour has been. Nothing that Northamerica1000 has done can justify your behaviour. Nor can anything you, or anyone else has done, justify their behaviour of course but you can't defend your terrible behaviour just by saying the other side has been worse. If you don't want people to support a topic ban of you for your terrible behaviour, don't behave so poorly. Nil Einne (talk) 15:35, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Nil Einne, there is a real, substantive problem here: NA1K's sustained Dunning–Kruger effect conduct. If we are actually here to build an encyclopedia, we need to find ways of dealing with that, and stopping the damage which it causes, rather than just expressing outrage at possibly excessive directness in noting it as they try to deal with the problems which it causes. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 19:45, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Even if your incivility towards NA1k is acceptable, which it isn't, you've been extremely uncivil to many other editors, including myself. I couldn't possibly care if people agree with you on what to do with portals. Hell, I probably agree with you on most of it. This is about your behavior, which is entirely unacceptable and demonstrates a strong lack of compliance with community civility and conduct standards, both for editors and administrators, and your failure to recognize that you are at fault worries me. This is not to say that NA1k is faultless; there are also issues with his conduct, hence why I support all proposals by JzG, but you need to recognize that incivility is not a proper response to perceived "gaming the system", especially as your immaturity and improper commentary causes constructive and good-faith editors unnecessary distress while attempting to contribute to the encyclopedia. Your constant harsh hostility towards editors who disagree with you is not a trait of someone I trust as an administrator, and as there is no community desysop procedure on this project (even if there were, there likely isn't consensus to reshelf your mop) I believe a topic ban is the next best thing. Regards, Vermont (talk) 19:13, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Any proposal that wants a moratorium on portal deletions should also be have a moratorium on portal creations. I'll look over this never-ending portal nightmare in terms of ongoing editor behaviour later Nosebagbear (talk) 12:27, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If this proposal isn't enacted (and I'm not sure it goes far enough in terms of either number of editors or response to their behaviour, but it's a start) the whole mess needs taking to arbcom. I allowed myself to get bullied out of most portal discussions months ago and absolutely nothing about the behaviour of the usual suspects seems to have improved since. Thryduulf (talk) 13:44, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If you want an extreme example of bad behaviour, one of the best examples was Thryduulf's sustained efforts to demand one-by-scrutiny of the 4,200 spam portals created by TTH and his acolytes. That was a blatant attempt to rig the system in favour of spam, by demanding that the commmunity put in far more time deleting the spam than TTH put into creating it. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 14:55, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Dmehus: by "spam" portal" I mean: the navbox-cloned automated portals created en masse by TTH + acolytes, which added no value over the navboxes from which they were derived.
TTH created them at sustained speeds of up to one per minute, some of them just for the heck of it, and lamented their inability to produce them faster. Most of this portalspam was deleted in April in two mass deletions of similar portals (one, and two), with overwhelming consensus of a very high turnout. The rest were deleted in a series of follow-up nominations,and the template used to ceate them was deleted at TFD Oct 25. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 19:34, 10 November 2019 (UTC)\[reply]
BrownHairedGirl, Ah, okay, I don't necessarily agree that navbox contents can't make a portal, but we need to evaluate it on a case-by-case basis, I think. Some obvious navboxes related to companies should be just that: template navboxes. Others, it is less clear.--Doug MehusT·C19:48, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support #1 let's see what the community can acomplish when we are free to have productive talks. Let's see if we can stop the loss of cotent editors for a few months see if it improves moving forward on a scope of an RFC on portals.--Moxy🍁15:24, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support all (including the single addendum) Maybe other editors need to be sanctioned as well, but I just had to look at this thread and the one above to be reminded that it's reasonable to sanction those 2 editors. Nil Einne (talk) 15:39, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Reluctant support I'm not convinced this is fair (I think the problem is that there is bullying on the playground, and this proposal solves this by sending the bully and one of their victims away from the playground), but it would work for the moment, and is better than the inaction we had in the last couple of rounds of discussing these editors. I'd suggest to start the ArbCom case once the next ArbCom is up and running. —Kusma (t·c) 15:49, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support #1 - I have noticed in particular the battleground behavior by BrownHairedGirl which include edits like: [3]Moxy, as usual you are wrong on nearly every point., [4]As KK87 knows, [5]you and other portal fans have made that argument before. It is focused more on the editor implying that they should know by now that .... whatever, I am frankly shocked by the conduct. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:36, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Reluctant support of all: As Kusma says, I can't help but feel that this is better than no action, but it's not ideal, either. Let us not let the perfect be the enemy of the good: it's time to put this matter to bed, and, absent ArbCom action, let's see what the community can do. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤)17:20, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Strongest possible oppose: There are many, many, many other people involved in the "portal wars", and silencing just two prominent users? This will only further escalate the conflict. ToThAc (talk) 15:20, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I support this (or any) effort to lay down some specific rules governing how and when these processes should be carried out. Right now it is more or less the wild west in terms of portals, with arbitrary and ad hoc reasoning going into arguments both for and against them. I think part of the problem is that MfD is a little-attended forum relative to other XfD namespaces, so perhaps portal deletion discussions should be moved to AfD. I was involved in the creation of MfD, and it was originally intended for things in project space and user space, not for reader-facing content. All that said, there are unquestionably some very poorly conceived portals that should be deleted, but perhaps that task should be temporarily put in the hands of a different slice of the community. bd2412T15:26, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support the idea of taking this to ARBCOM: I've been watching this unfold since around the end of August and it has devolved to a point where I'm almost certain that writing each act of incivility on the same Word document would end up with a several thousand word essay. -Yeetcetera@me bro15:39, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support the idea of taking this to ARBCOM ...lets get other admins involved in a wider tlak. Because the integrity of admiship is being questioned at this point. --Moxy🍁15:52, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support taking this to arbcom. Its clear that the community has repeatedly failed to resolve this matter. I don't know whether it can wait until January (as suggested somewhere) though, I'd prefer to take it there before it degenerates further. Thryduulf (talk) 16:02, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
SupportJzG's proposal to take this to ArbCom. Question: So, basically, can ArbCom be used to take any proposal that repeatedly fails to gain consensus? I thought they only dealt with editor discipline. I think Wikipedia needs some adult supervision, so this is encouraging. I'd even support giving bureaucrats and ArbCom Clerks expanded powers of veto to override consensus where it's clear so-called "school war" voting blocks are stymieing otherwise sound, rationale, policy- and circumstance-based arguments. Doug MehusT·C16:25, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
They'll only look at the user-conduct side; they have the authority to decide that one or more of the parties is acting unreasonably and have the authority to topic-ban them, but they have no authority to determine content so can't rule on whether portals are a good thing or how the creation and deletion processes should work. To act as a final binding decision-maker primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve is the official definition of their scope if you want chapter-and-verse. ‑ Iridescent16:29, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Iridescent, Ah, that's too bad. I wonder if there would be community consensus for expanded powers for ArbCom—to determine consensus on its own in a very limited set of contingent circumstances? Doug MehusT·C17:01, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think there would, rightly, be strong oppposition to ArbCom's remit being extended to make content decisions. (As an aside, ArbCom can't "determine consensus on its own" by definition, because a unilateral decision by ArbCom would not be consensus). Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:12, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Boing! said Zebedee, So I'm confused then, why is JzG proposing an RfC agenda to take to ArbCom to have approved? If not what he's proposing, what is he proposing? Certainly he's not proposing to take Northamerica1000 to ArbCom for sanction is he, particularly in light of the compelling diffs Northamerica1000 posted showing admin BrownHairedGirl apparently engaging in both bad faith and personal attacks against NA1K? I have to say, this ANI troubles me greatly...I always held administrators in such high regard, as all-knowing, impartial, and above-the-fray, but these events seem to demonstrate to me that they, at times, engage in the same sort of shenanigans of editors brought to ANI. Doug MehusT·C17:17, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There are two separate things being proposed here, an RfC for community discussion and consensus, and a referral to ArbCom to examine the bahaviour of the combatants. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:24, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sub-colloquy re timeline and comments by Northamerica1000
Comment from Northamerica1000 (talk·contribs) – I want to be crystal clear here, so I encourage all to please consider the timeline below and check the links.
At the MfD discussion for the Transport portal, BrownHairedGirl (talk·contribs) has accused me of gaming the system, stating in part, "NA1K is wholly unrepentant about continuing to relay for guidance on a former guideline WP:POG which was delisted with their support; and now seeks discussions to "update" a page whose status is solely a "failed proposal". This is one of the worst case I have seen of trying to gaming the system".
Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but my intention in stating that discussion could occur at the POG talk page was that potential future portal criteria could be discussed there. Another option that I didn't mention would be to discuss potential portal criteria matters at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Portals.
In the thread above on this noticeboard titled "When will it end", Moxy posted a link to the Transport portal MfD discussion.
The proposal here written by JzG regarding potential sanctions against me appears to be based upon BHG's proclamation at the Transport portal MfD discussion, or at last it did before others chimed in after JzG posted it, while I was typing this out in the meantime.
First and foremost, at the MfD discussion, I have not engaged in any personal attacks, hounding, badgering or name-calling whatsoever. Rather, I have remained calm and civil throughout the discussion. I have also not engaged in any gaming. Meantime, on this very ANI page, BHG has continued their personal attacks against me, stating in the "When will it end" section, "I stand by my description of NA1K as either a liar or an idiot, or both." (diff). This is a reprehensible personal attack, right on this ANI page.
BHG has repeatedly engaged in the exact same highly similar behaviors that they so vehemently oppose at the Transport portal MfD discussion, over a significant period of time. Ironically, BHG themself has set a precedent for referral to the former Portal/Guidelines (WP:POG) page, now a failed proposal page, at various MfD discussions. I certainly have not engaged in any gaming; the user and other users have routinely refer to POG in MfD discussions, after it was downgraded from the status of being a guideline page. Very importantly, note that the commentary listed below occurred after POG was downgraded. BHG's comments denoted below all occurred in October-November 2019.
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Karachi – BHG stated: "The portal was never properly built, and it has basically been abandoned since construction was halted. It has only 15 selected articles (and no separate set of biogs), which is less than even the risibly low bare minimum of 20 set by the former guideline WP:POG. All those pages were created in 2008, since when they have had only trivial technical changes, such as punctuation and disambiguation." — Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
This is a classic deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. My words are very clear, and were chosen carefully.
I did was very clear that POG is a former guideline, and I cited it to explicitly stress the folly of that guideline.
NA!K is trying to conflate this with their efforts to cite POG as guidance on how to act, which is the exact opposite of what I did. NA1K actually claimed that POG has current value, which I explicitly did not. And NA1K actually claimed that the wording of POG somehow endorsed their choice to create a massively POV list of articles, which r does not. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 01:22, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Bremen – BHG stated: "The set of only 9 articles is less than half the risibly low minimum of 20 set by the former guideline WP:POG. It includes no recognised content (i.e. FA-class or GA-class), and there is little scope for doing so because few such articles exist." — Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
Another deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. My words are very clear, and were chosen carefully.
I did was very clear that POG is a former guideline, and I cited it to explicitly stress the folly of that guideline.
NA!K is trying to conflate this with their efforts to cite POG as guidance on how to act, which is the exact opposite of what I did. NA1K actually claimed that POG has current value, which I explicitly did not. And NA1K actually claimed that the wording of POG somehow endorsed their choice to create a massively POV list of articles, which r does not. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 01:24, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Paralympic Games – BHG stated: "So after 9 years, this portal has only 8 articles, which is a trivially small set, less than half of the risibly small minimum of 20 which set by the former guideline WP:POG. And all of them are abandoned. There is no sign of nay maintainer, let alone the multiple maintainers needed to avoid the "key man" risk." — Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
Yet another deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. My words are very clear, and were chosen carefully.
I was very clear that POG is a former guideline, and I cited it to explicitly stress the folly of that guideline.
NA1K is trying to conflate this with their efforts to cite POG as guidance on how to act, which is the exact opposite of what I did. NA1K actually claimed that POG has current value, which I explicitly did not. And NA1K actually claimed that the wording of POG somehow endorsed their choice to create a massively POV list of articles, which r does not.
Either NA1K does not understand the difference between my statements to the fact that the portal was created under former crap guideline and their own statemnets that their actions are justified by following that crap guideline ... or they do understand, and are actively trying to smear me. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 01:34, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Islamabad – BHG stated: "WP:POG was right about some things, including that portals need both multiple maintainers and supporting WikiProjects. In this case we have only one inexperienced editor interested in maintenance, and WP:WikiProject Islamabad is inactive. That's a recipe for continued failure." — Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
Yet another deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. My words are very clear, and were chosen carefully.
I did not claim that POG is a active guideline, or that in NA1K's pompous words a schema for advisement. I offered my explicitly personal view that in this instance, it was right ... but I did not claim that it represents a current consensus.
NA1K is trying to conflate this with their efforts to cite POG as guidance on how to act, which is the exact opposite of what I did. NA1K actually claimed that POG has current value, which I explicitly did not. And NA1K actually claimed that the wording of POG somehow endorsed their choice to create a massively POV list of articles, which r does not.
Either NA1K does not understand the difference between my statement on the value of the former guideline and their own attempt to use it as a shield against their POV-pushing ... or they do understand, and are actively trying to smear me. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 01:34, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Washington (state) – BHG stated: "A mere 11 selected articles+bogs is a pathetically small set, barely half the risibly low minimum of 20 set by the former guideline WP:POG, and nowhere remotely near big enough to provide a decent sample of the topic." — Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
Yet another deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. My words are very clear, and were chosen carefully.
I did was very clear that POG is a former guideline, and I cited it to explicitly stress the folly of that guideline "risibly".
NA1K is trying to conflate this with their efforts to cite POG as guidance on how to act, which is the exact opposite of what I did. NA1K actually claimed that POG has current value, which I explicitly did not. And NA1K actually claimed that the wording of POG somehow endorsed their choice to create a massively POV list of articles, which r does not.
Either NA1K does not understand the difference between my statements to the fact that the portal was created under former crap guideline and their own statements that their actions are justified by following that crap guideline ... or they do understand, and are actively trying to smear me. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 01:43, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:1940s – BHG stated: "The portal was created[1] in September 2016 with only selected article and one biog. More were added in 2017, bring to the tally to 5 articles plus 5 biogs. That total of ten is only half the risibly low minimum of twenty set in the former guideline WP:POG. The selection is also grossly unbalanced: all 5 topics listed in Portal:1940s/Selected article are military, and 3 of the 5 are predominantly about the United States ." — Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
Yet another deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. My words are very clear, and were chosen carefully.
I did was very clear that POG is a former guideline, and I cited it to explicitly stress the folly of that guideline "risibly".
NA1K is trying to conflate this with their efforts to cite POG as guidance on how to act, which is the exact opposite of what I did. NA1K actually claimed that POG has current value, which I explicitly did not. And NA1K actually claimed that the wording of POG somehow endorsed their choice to create a massively POV list of articles, which r does not.
Either NA1K does not understand the difference between my statements to the fact that the portal was created under former crap guideline and their own statements that their actions are justified by following that crap guideline ... or they do understand, and are actively trying to smear me. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 01:43, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:South Carolina – BHG stated: "Two articles and two biogs is Perfectly good portal?????? Really??? Am I missing some sort of sarcasm or comedy here? Even POG set a minimum of twenty articles, which itself was risibly low." — Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
Yet another deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. My words are very clear, and were chosen carefully.
I did was very clear that POG is a former guideline, and I cited it to explicitly stress the folly of that guideline: "risibly".
NA1K is trying to conflate this with their efforts to cite POG as guidance on how to act, which is the exact opposite of what I did. NA1K actually claimed that POG has current value, which I explicitly did not. And NA1K actually claimed that the wording of POG somehow endorsed their choice to create a massively POV list of articles, which r does not.
Either NA1K does not understand the difference between my statements to the fact that the portal was created under former crap guideline and their own statements that their actions are justified by following that crap guideline ... or they do understand, and are actively trying to smear me. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 01:43, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:North Carolina – BHG stated: "A mere one selected article makes a Perfectly good portal?????? Really??? Am I missing some sort of sarcasm or comedy here? Even POG set a minimum of twenty articles, which itself was risibly low." — Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
Yet another deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. My words are very clear, and were chosen carefully.
I did was very clear that POG is a former guideline, and I cited it to explicitly stress the folly of that guideline: "risibly".
NA1K is trying to conflate this with their efforts to cite POG as guidance on how to act, which is the exact opposite of what I did. NA1K actually claimed that POG has current value, which I explicitly did not. And NA1K actually claimed that the wording of POG somehow endorsed their choice to create a massively POV list of articles, which r does not.
Either NA1K does not understand the difference between my statements to the fact that the portal was created under former crap guideline and their own statements that their actions are justified by following that crap guideline ... or they do understand, and are actively trying to smear me. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 01:43, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Statistics – BHG stated: "This total of 13 topics is little over half the risibly low bare minimum of 20 recommended by the former guideline WP:POG, which has now been downgraded to an information page." and "Since late 2006, WP:POG had warned editors "Do not expect other editors to maintain a portal you create", but that warning was not heeded here." — Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
Yet another deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. My words are very clear, and were chosen carefully.
I was very clear that POG is a former guideline, and I cited it to explicitly stress the folly of that guideline "risibly".
NA1K snipped the sceond snetence from my cescription of the history of the portal. I also carefully worded that comment about "maintain a portal you create" to stress that I was referring to the guidance as it applied at that time when the portal was created. The standing guidance when the portal was created had not been followed. It did not in any claim that POG is a current guideline.
NA1K is trying to conflate this with their efforts to cite POG as current guidance on how to act, which is the exact opposite of what I did. NA1K actually claimed that POG has current value, which I explicitly did not. And NA1K actually claimed that the wording of POG somehow endorsed their choice to create a massively POV list of articles, which it does not.
Either NA1K does not understand the difference between my statements to the fact that the portal was created under former crap guideline and their own statements that their actions are justified by following that crap guideline ... or they do understand, and are actively trying to smear me. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 01:43, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Elbe–Weser triangle – BHG stated: "WP:POG has been downgraded to an info page, but its guidance in this respect was excellent: "the portal should be associated with a WikiProject (or have editors with sufficient interest) to help ensure a supply of new material for the portal and maintain the portal". This portal lacks both the supply and the maintainers." — Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
Yet another deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. My words are very clear, and were chosen carefully.
I was very clear that POG is a former guideline, and I did not in any way claim that it has any current force.
NA1K is trying to conflate this with their efforts to cite POG as guidance on how to act, which is the exact opposite of what I did. NA1K actually claimed that POG has current value, which I explicitly did not. And NA1K actually claimed that the wording of POG somehow endorsed their choice to create a massively POV list of articles, which r does not.
Either NA1K does not understand the difference between my statement of my view of the value of some words in the former guideline and their own statements that their actions in after its delisting creating a POV page are justified by following that crap guideline ... or they do understand, and are actively trying to smear me. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 01:55, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, of note is that Robert McClenon (talk·contribs), who appears to be a wiki-friend of BHG's, has also engaged in the same behaviors in various MfD discussions, using a copy-paste rationale that synthesizes aspects of POG relative to WP:COMMONSENSE, after POG was downgraded from being a guideline page, which is quoted below with diffs. It is alarming and hypocritical that BHG has not criticized this user whatsoever about this, only me.
diff, diff, diff, diff, diff and diff – "The intended Portal Guidelines were never approved by a consensus of the Wikipedia community, and we have never had real portal guidelines. We should therefore use common sense, which is discussed in Wikipedia in the essay section Use Common Sense and in the article common sense. The portal guidelines were an effort to codify common sense about portals, and we should still use common sense. It is still a matter of common sense that portals should be about broad subject areas that will attract large numbers of viewers and will attract portal maintainers. (There never was an actual guideline referring to broad subject areas, and the abstract argument that a topic is a broad subject area is both a handwave and meaningless.) Common sense imposes at least a three-part test for portals to satisfy common sense: (1) a broad subject area, demonstrated a posteriori by a breadth of selected articles (not only by an a priori claim that a topic is broad) (the number of articles in appropriate categories is an indication of potential breadth of coverage, but actual breadth of coverage should be required); (2) a large number of viewers, preferably at least 100 a day, but any portal with fewer than 25 a day can be considered to have failed; (3) portal maintenance, (a) with at least two maintainers to provide backup, with a maintenance plan indicating how the portal will be maintained (b) the absence of any errors indicating lack of maintenance (including failure to list dates of death in biographies). Some indication of how any selected articles were selected (e.g., Featured Article or Good Article status, selection by categories, etc.) is also desirable. Any portal that does not pass these common-sense tests is not useful as a navigation tool, for showcasing, or otherwise" — Northamerica1000 16:40, 10 November 2019 — continues after insertion below
Yet another deceitful, manipulative misrepresentation by NA1K. @Robert McClenon explicitly stated his personal view that some parts of POG reflect commonsense. Robert is entitled to state his own view, and he clearly takes responsibility for that view. He has not attempted to claim that POG has current force as a schema for advisement, and he has not in way emulated NA1K's disgraceful attempt to claim currency for POG as a device to justify creation of a POV portal. This is an attempt by NA1K to smear me and Robert McClenon by misrepresentation. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 01:55, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As I have stated above, BHG and others have engaged in the exact same highly similar behaviors that BHG has so vehemently opposed at the Transport portal discussion. The user is not holding themself to the same standards that they impose on others; rather, they are applying double standards based upon their own selective and subjective criteria. North America100016:40, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Section break for sub-colloquy
Comment – I dislike how BHG has interjected their commentary within the comment I posted above, and ask that they or someone else please move their commentary into its own separate post. The interjection of commentary within my comment has served to dilute my message, turning it into a long wall of text that is less likely to be read and considered as fully by others compared to the original state it was in when I posted it. I prefer my posts to remain as I posted them, rather than being modified in this manner. North America100002:05, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
NA1K, you posted as wall of text a series of deceitful misrepresentations of me, which you clearly intended to create through sheer volume of misrepresentation a mountain of "evidence" in support of your false claim that I had acted like you. I have posted in each case an individual response, and taken care to retain attribution.
You should not have interleaved your comments within NA1K's comment in the first place, per WP:TPO (this is explicitly mentioned in the documentation of {{Interrupted}}, the template you used to mark your insertions). To then thumb your nose in response to a polite request from NA1K not to do this is so brazenly disrespectful it boggles the mind to see it coming from an administrator. Colin M (talk) 03:02, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Colin M – The inappropriate interspersal of commentary within my comment equates to an entitled rationale of, "I don't like your comment, so I am therefore allowed to modify it any way I'd like, because I say so". This is certainly against the advisement of WP:TPO. I don't like this at all; it's obviously totally off base and highly inappropriate. It turned my comment into a long wall of text that is now disjointed, interspersed with loaded adjectives such as "deceitful" and "manipulative", inappropriately changing its meaning. It is also very concerning that the user has ultimately posted comments below their very own verbatim comments in this strange manner, which bizarrely reads almost as though if they are referring to their own comments denoted in the list as deceitful and manipulative. My premise to the discussions list exists above them, not within the list. My text in the discussions list consists solely of a link to a discussion and " – BHG stated:". That's all. This is not deceitful or manipulative whatsoever. It seems that the user is intentionally working to disruptively dilute and obscure my post by bludgeoning it in this manner, intentionally and disrespectfully tampering with it to make it more ambiguous for other users to read, while interspersing negativity within it, changing its meaning. This is a disrespect to me as well as to the readers of this page. The fact that the user has chosen to reject a perfectly reasonable request to format their commentary properly and in accordance with WP:TPO, and the reasons they have provided for not doing so, only further supports the notion that this disruption as I have described is intentional, for the reasons described herein. Furthermore, since this ANI discussion involves the user and myself and elements of them interfering with my edits and actions in a battleground manner, they should especially not be posting within my commentary in this manner at the very ANI discussion about these matters. It seems that the user just cannot resist interfering with my activity on English Wikipedia. Per all of this, it is my request that someone please WP:REFACTOR the user's posts into one post, as per the directives at WP:TPO. North America100020:23, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Reply That long charge-sheet against me by NA1K is simply more evidence that NA1K is either incompetent or mendacious, or both:
In each of the instances which NA1K sets out, I noted that POG is a former guideline. I did not seek to uphold it as guide to ongoing conduct; on the contrary, I repeatedly and explicitly described it as risible.
By contrast, what NA1K did was to repeatedly justify their actions as being in accordance with POG, ... and did so to justify their creation of a massively POV list. In other words, NA1K used a non-guideline as their shield again breaching a core policy.
Why sort of person tries to claim that these are the same thing? Is NA1K too incompetent to distinguish between those two uses? Or are they consciously lying?
Whatever reasons applies, NA1K's statement that BHG engaged in the exact same behaviors is completely false. How on earth can we build an enclyopedia when discussions are repeatedly polluted with such counter-factual nonsense? --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 18:07, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Northamerica1000, My proposal was based on the current dispute, not any one person's version of it. The fact that both of you think I am siding with the other is pretty clear evidence of this. I'm siding with neither, I am just sick of the drama and looking for a way to advance it that doesn't end up in desysopping and bans for people whose work I admire in every other area. Guy (help!) 17:27, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
JzG, I support Guy's comment above. Both are otherwise great admins. It seems the crux of the matter is one's view of Portals and the other's, which views them less favourably. I personally think Portals are a great idea, but am confident they're under-utilized because they're so hard to find. We just deleted a Star Trek portal for Pete's sake—despite there being a lot of Star Trek articles.Doug MehusT·C17:44, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Some questions for JzG – Since you have devised your proposal based upon the MfD discussion for Portal:Transport, relative to the information I posted in my comment above, do you still feel that I have somehow gamed the system, or is your proposal simply based upon BHG having proclaimed it as their opinion at the discussion? I have not engaged in any gaming whatsoever, and as I have stated, others, including BHG themself, have engaged in the exact same highly similar behaviors of referring to POG in MfD discussion in various manners after it was demoted from being a guideline page. Nobody else at the discussion has agreed with BHG's viewpoint of gaming, and most are in agreement with my contention that the portal should be retained and improved.
Also, I have not engaged in any battleground behavior there whatsoever. After being continuously personally attacked there, I never responded in kind. I have posted no personal attacks and have harassed nobody there. Rather, I have calmly and civilly presented my point of views in a functional, collegial manner. Also, notice how I posted my comments in a manner to separate myself from BHG, because it is clear that they were angry, and it is not my intention to provoke them. Could you please cite any specific commentary there that I have posted that you perceive as battleground behavior, since you are basing your proposal upon the discussion? When a user is constantly personally attacked in a discussion, should they just not respond, or should they defend their honor and reputation, and try to better explain their position using civil, calm commentary as I have done? In my view, people have a right to stand up for themselves in a civil manner. I worry that any sort of response to BHG's anger, regardless of how civil and well-intended, could be misinterpreted as battleground behavior when it is not, particularly when users may skim the discussion, rather than reading it in-depth. Conversely to the barrage of attacks that have been posted against me at the discussion, I have remained on-topic about the portal and its content there, and have not personalized the discussion in a negative manner whatsoever.
Please don't take this the wrong way, and I am aware that you are not siding with anybody, but some specific examples from the MfD discussion would be helpful in terms of qualifying your proposed sanctions against me, since it is what the proposal is based upon. North America100019:12, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
More reality inversion from NA1K. Mo, it was nothighly similar. It was the complete opposite.
I repeatedly referred to a former guideline as risible.
NA1K cited a failed proposal as a schema for advisement which justified their breach of the core policy of NPOV.
I repeat my earlier observation that only an idiot or a liar would try to equate those opposite actions. This little exchange is an excellent example of why NA1K's conduct is so toxic. NA1K repeats and repeats a patently false assertion which smears another editor and then whines at huge length that they are being bullied and badgered by requests that they desist from the absurd smears and reconnect to reality.
More personal attacks above from BHG, qualified by gross semantic nitpicking of phrases and words that are naturally open to various interpretations. I even struck part of my commentary in hopes to appease the user, so they would hopeully calm down, but to no avail. The user disagrees per their own interpretation, so they then engage in more name calling, proclaiming and labeling another user as a "liar" on a public noticeboard, in bold, of course, to make it stand out more. More of the same unfortunate smear campaign behavior that the user appears unable to resist from performing. The user feels that it is okay to quickly and eagerly engage in ad hominem behavior, rather than responding functionally, such as saying something such as, "I feel that this is inaccurate". All the while, the user does not address the overall gist of the original comment that was posted.
I mentioned WP:POG at the Transport portal MfD discussion in the context of article additions that were performed to the portal. I did not refer to it as a guideline page there, I referred to it in terms of the recommendations that exist there (e.g. where I stated in the discussion, "I simply updated the page in accordance with POG's recommendations.") (bold emphasis mine). I urge readers to read my entire post there, so matters are kept in context. Also, the Wikipedia talk:Portal/Guidelines page is still active, with an active RfC occurring there as I post this.
As I stated in my post above, other users have continued to utilize the sentiments of POG in MfD discussions, after it was demoted as a guideline page, such as continuing to qualify deletion as per the points in the lead of POG, stating that portals should be about broad topical areas, should attract large numbers of interested readers, and portal maintainers.
For example, at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:1940s, which occurred after POG was demoted, BHG based part of their nomination for deletion by stating, "That total of ten is only half the risibly low minimum of twenty set in the former guideline WP:POG", referring to a deficient number of articles. The user was directly referring to the recommendations of POG in an MfD discussion as a means to assess the portal, utilizing those recommendations to qualify deletion. I utilized the recommendations of POG at the Transport portal MfD discussion in regards to additions that were performed to it, referring to an increased number of articles, also as a means to assess the portal. Both actions involved the utilization of POG's minimum article count recommendation, just for different purposes.
These are not opposite actions, they are similar actions that both involve sentiments of POG's minimum article count recommendation. That the user used the word "risibly" in their nomination in reference to POG's article count minimum is of no consequence; the user utilized sentiments of POG's article count as a qualifier for deletion after POG was demoted. While deletion and retention are opposite in nature, utilizing POG's article count recommendation in various manners is not. The article count recommendation has been utilized in both ways, for deletion or retention, but both uses involves the same action, the utilization of the same general concept, just in different contexts. It's like purchasing cooking oil, which can be used for cooking or to fuel some types of motor vehicles. The action of obtaining the cooking oil is the same, but it is used for different purposes.
Since BHG and other users are opining for deletion based in part upon the recommendations of POG after its demotion, it is only fair for users to have an option to opine for portal retention based upon said recommendations as well. It's a two-way street, not a one-way street where its recommendations can only be utilized in the context of deletion. While POG is not a guideline page anymore, in my opinion, people will still rely upon it for advisement. Despite its demotion, it's one of the only pages that provides any sort of direct portal criteria for people to consider. What else should be used in place of it? North America100000:28, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
NA1K's response continues to actively try to distort my words.
There is world of a difference difference between:
My observations that a portal did not meet even the risbly low criteria of the guideline which applied when it was last developed
NA1K's description of the guideline as still a guideline (by using pompous words which amount to a synonym for guideline), and relying on that former guidance after its demotion which they had requested, in order to crate a massively POV portal.
This is all a smokescreen by NA1K to distract from the fact that NA1K:
sneakily created a massively POV list.
cited in justification a former guideline which did not require the actions they took (POG desribed a technique for making a list. It did not advise editors to suspend judgement about core policies such as NPOV, and it did not require or advise NA1K to use only one of the >20 transport-related projects)
failed to notify any interested parties of their actions
NA1K writes it's one of the only pages that provides any sort of direct portal criteria for people to consider. What else should be used in place of it?.
This is absurd, and massively hypocritcal. NA1K specifically advocated delisting the guideline. They could have requested amendmnents to it, but instaed they supported delisting.
The resulting state of having no guideline is therefore exactly what NA1K wanted ... so why on earth is NA1K now complaining that there is no guideline? You got what you asked for, NA1K.
Also, as NA1K well knows, I have been asking for weeks (since the ANI thread on my reversions) for collaboration to develop RFCs for guidance on these various issues. I have posted that request at least a dozen times, several of which have pinged NA1K (e.g. [6]), and I have several times set out some of the issues which I woyukd I like to reslved by RFC, e.g. [7]
NA1K has not supported any of those repeated requests for RFC ... but is instead insisting that they are right to rely on the guideline which they themself got delisted.
This is classic gaming the system. If NA1K wants guidelines, then they can propose that POG be reinstated ... or, as I would prefer, they work collaboratively to develop new guidance, initially in the 3 major issues in dispute.
Instead, NA1K is tryig to take advantage of the vacuum which they created, by misrepresenting the former guidance as still having currency.
Comment – Above, BHG stated: This is absurd, and massively hypocritcal and so why on earth is NA1K now complaining that there is no guideline?.
My post above consists of observations, not complaints. It is unclear why you are asking yet again about why I was for WP:POG being delisted. I have already addressed this matter at Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Schleswig-Holstein (2nd nomination) earlier, which you then responded to in a later comment that finished with an intro stating the phrase "Na1k=Liar." (diff1, diff2), so you are obviously already aware of the response I provided. It is you who is being dishonest, because you act as though if you are entirely unaware of matters that I have already stated my opinion upon, and to which you have already responded. Did you not remember when you added my user name and the word "liar" in bold? Your personal attack there should be redacted, and you should learn to at least try to be more respectful of others. Your consistent battleground mentality and behavior is incongruent with building an encyclopedia. Other editors would have already been blocked for such long-term, ongoing harassment.
I encourage all readers to please read my post on 10 November 2019 (UTC) at the Portal:Schleswig-Holstein MfD discussion page (diff), where I stated (in part):
I have not cited the WP:POG page as a guideline. I opposed it being utilized as a formal guideline page per principle, because its lead was decided upon by one user in a unilateral manner and a WP:CONSENSUS never existed for it to be an official guideline page. Your theories about why I opposed it as a guideline page has nothing to do with this MfD discussion, and is also incorrect.
For more information, please see this VP discussion which was closed on 26 September 2019 (UTC) and includes the detailed rationale I provided regarding POG relative to its demotion.
So what are the real reasons for why you are acting like you're unaware of my opinion about POG and its demotion? Is it so you can repeat your interrogation here in attempts to further smear my reputation? It certainly appears to be that way. Please cease from asking the same questions over and over again on multiple pages when I have already answered them. If you are unable to remember things I have previously stated, you could consider denoting them in some manner. It is wasting my time, time I'd rather spend performing functional activities, rather than responding continuously to your identical interrogations on multiple pages, whereby if I don't respond, you then imply that I haven't addressed the matter, when the response has already been provided elsewhere. Please stop your constant repetitious badgering and WP:HOUNDING, because it is disturbing my enjoyment of Wikipedia, and likely that of others as well. North America100017:51, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – Above, BHG stated, A good faith editor would now agree that there are substantive issues which need resolution at RFC. Will you do that, NA1K?.
As worded, the statement implies that I would exist as a "bad faith" editor if I decline to draft an RfC or collaborate with the user in doing so. Of course, this is a poor preface to begin with when suggesting activities for other users to work on, and equates to complying with a request to perform specific work or otherwise face a potential of being declared as a "bad faith" user. Furthermore, the user's ongoing name calling against me and smearing of my name across various Wikipedia pages inhibits me from wanting to work with them. It is patronizing for the user to request that I perform work on an RfC after the behavior they have exhibited against me.
It is unrealistic and illogical for the user to expect a user who has repeatedly been called a "liar" by them, in bold, across various discussions, including in this ANI discussion, to then have an interest in working with them. The user has not been behaving in a collegial manner, and then requests collaboration for an RfC, which requires collegial behavior. The user's past behavior creates doubt regarding the feasibility of working with them, as well as in their intentions in requesting collaboration. If BHG were to perform the good-faith act of redacting each and every instance across Wikipedia, including in this ANI discussion, where they have engaged in such name calling with the words "liar", lies", "lying", etc., only then would I begin to consider working with them on an RfC. Even if this were to occur, I naturally reserve the right to choose for myself what I spend my time working on. North America100022:12, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
JzG, No, sorry, I've only recently started following WP:ANI and, to be honest, I don't like that I see here, by admins and editors alike. I think I should unfollow this page. It's almost as bad as the RfA/RfB "ritual hazings" to which S Marshall so aptly and concisely put it.--Doug MehusT·C17:35, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Procedural Note: There's too many edit conflicts...but can someone move this my struck vote above and the next three support votes at the same hierarchical level above NA1K's comment, so his comment is back together again? Doug MehusT·C18:01, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support #1 – This has been a one-sided matter, in which BHG has engaged in an ongoing smear campaign against me and other users over months of time, intentionally working to malign my character and reputation and that of others on English Wikipedia.
BHG has also attacked me again very recently, both directly here on this ANI page on 10 November 2019 (UTC) (diff – "I stand by my description of NA1K as either a liar or an idiot, or both.") and on 10 November 2019 (UTC) (diff – "'NA1K=Liar".)
I urge others to please refer to and read pages from the extensive list of links provided at Administrators' noticeboard/Archive311 § Civility issues with User:BrownHairedGirl (from August 2019), where Vermont took the time to provide many diffs that demonstrate BHG's ongoing pattern of the performance of hounding, bullying, personal attacks, name calling and harassment. This serves to provide additional context demonstrating that BHG's poor conduct has been an ongoing matter. In addition to Vermont's links posted at that discussion, below are more links from that discussion that I posted there, to serve as an addendum, further establishing the pattern that BHG has been exhibiting:
User talk:BrownHairedGirl/Archive/Archive 047 § Discussions about portals – 12 April 2019: BHG shames me, and then pings me to the discussion afterward. I replied, and also requested at that time that they "please at least consider toning down on the "us versus them" stances (e.g. above: "shamefully... (et al.), "you portal defenders", etc.) and try to understand that Wikipedia consists of many diverse individuals that have many diverse viewpoints."
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Portals/Archive 9 § Collaboration – Country and major geographical Portals - 28 April 2019: I posted a good faith request for some portal improvements at the portal Wikiproject, a project "dedicated to developing and maintaining portals and portal tools." BHG then proceeded to take over the thread in a barrage of shaming and blaming against me, to the point of preventing anyone from potentially responding. Now, BHG could have brought their concerns to my talk page, but instead, chose to engage in smearing my reputation. Furthermore, there is no shame in seeking collaboration to improve Wikipedia content, nor should there be.
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Portals § Request for improvement: Portal:Northern Ireland – 1 August 2019: Another good faith request seeking improvements, which has realized some positive responses, is met with long tirades of anger and shaming toward me and other users by BHG. It appears that any discussion about portals outside of MfD is considered by the user to be gaming the system somehow. Portals can be discussed outside of MfD.
Diff – 1 August 2019: A user asks BHG on their talk page to tone down their personal attacks against me. Diff - BHG then replies with more personal attacks against me. Diff - Then, another user also states that BHG should attempt to tone matters down.
Diff – 14 August, 2019, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Portals: Same pattern, another long wall of text that in part attacks and smears me personally on a public noticeboard.
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Grenada – Attacks anyone who may potentially discuss the portal in a manner contrary to their opinion. See "Expect portalista opposition."...(et al.). I have not contributed to this discussion.
– I have attempted at times to discuss matters with BHG in a functional manner in various discussions, but the user has continued to attack for months, often responding with great walls of badgering, hurtful and angry text, against myself and many other users. Despite all of this, I have remained calm, civil and objective, and have never posted personal attacks. I have also performed absolutely no gaming of the system anywhere. I have done no wrong. North America100017:47, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Reply. There isn't a venue where all those discussions can be examined properly, but I stand what I wrote in those discussions. They all show variants on the same pattern of NA1K engaging in mendacious and/or incompetent conduct, and then whining about being called out on it.
The problem is that NA1K is fundamentally well-intentioned, but is either incapable of conducting rational discussions, or unwilling to do so. They repeatedly post the same falsehoods, and are impervious to reason. That is why I assert that they are either a liar or incompetent, or both.
Two examples (I don't have time for diff-farming now):
Across multiple discussions, NA1K repeatedly, cited an incomplete sentence from POG, snipping off the part of the sentence which contradicted their case. The full sentence, with a strikeout through the art which NA!K systematically omitted is "Please bear in mind that portals should be about broad subject areas, which are likely to attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers". NA1K persisted in doing so even when they were pointed to the full sentence. That is deceptive and dishonest behaviour, which NA1K repeated across multiple discussions. It is one of the reasons why I call NA1K mendacious, but I also accept the possibility of an alternative explanation: that NA1K is too stupid to recognise the dishonesty involved.
In discussions about pageviews of portals, every other editor posted daily averages. NA1K repeatedly replied with a higher number, which was the total pageviews for a different timefame, creating an apples-and-oranges comparison. This was mendacious use of statistics. Subsequent discussion revealed that NA!K was actually substantively incompetent, and made absurd claims such as that an average is a statistic whereas the addition of data across a timeframe is not a statistic. After much discussion, NA1K did eventually agree to stop using simple statistics in this misleading way, but a huge amount of drama was created through their stupidity.
NA!K's contributions to portal debates have been full of this sort of mix of stupidity and mendacity. That is a large part of why portals debates have become so antagonistic, because challenging the stupidity and mendacity inevitably involves personal criticism of NA1K.
These problems with NA1K are longstanding, and were noted at NA1K's two RFAs, e.g.
Candidates need to demonstrate that they have that particular brand of clue that is required of administrators
in my experience this user doesn't deal well with disagreements. He just talks over the top of people and doesn't listen to them. -- which is exactly what NA1K has done at multiple portal MFDs
When we tried to explain notability guidelines, deletion policy, and WP:NOT then he changed his focus to telling others why we were wrong instead of addressing us and discussing it. He doesn't listen. Then when we had the discussion about canvassing at ARS, he was doing the same thing. He didn't want to understand canvassing policy, he wanted to exonerate ARS. This "I want to win" behavior is dangerous to Wikipedia and certainly not helpful in an admin
I do not believe that NA is a proper reader of consensus. Tparis points out lawyering, canvassing, and not listening, and that is my experience also
... suggests that you aren't so much interested in administering Wikipedia's policies and guidelines as you are in saving articles -- exatly the smare issue as at poratl MFDs
Tactics as a member of ARS were highly questionable, inluding canvassing and dumping long lists of useless sources which he clearly did not take the time to read or evaluate -- again, similar to NA1K's conduct with portals, where they have made long indiscriminate lists. See e.g. my analysis at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Transport and Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Ghana.
What I've seen from them in article space is impressive in terms of zeal and sheer number of edits, but I am less than impressed with their judgment in the matter of evaluating sources--for instance -- the same lack of judgement has been displayed ven in the simper task of their creation of article lists for portals
Issue with judgement are clear here
Judgement is clearly an issue, reflected in the huge number of edits as well as elsewhere, as is the possibility of hat collecting
Like other opposes, I am concerned with Northamerica1000's judgment.
the concerns about judgment ring true to me
past behavior has led me to have serious concerns about NA1k's judgment, especially w/r/t deletion related issues
The core problem here is that in the case of NA1K, the community has failed to act on long-standing concerns about their lack of competence. This has led NA1K to repeatedly extend themselves well beyond their very limited competence, which has exacerbated the Dunning–Kruger effect demonstrated by NA1K's repeated inability or unwillingness to abandon even simple falsehoods and follies.
The use of a comma in Please bear in mind that portals should be about broad subject areas, which are likely to attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers. makes the portion that follows it non-restrictive. Which is to say, it can be omitted without changing the truth-conditional meaning of the sentence. i.e. The sentence could be rewritten as "Please bear in mind that portals should be about broad subject areas (broad subject areas are likely to attract large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers)." Omitting this non-essential clause requires neither malicious intent nor incompotence.
I think you may have acquired a distorted view of what are just ordinary disagreements between rational editors. When you reframe these as "correct editor vs. obviously stupid/evil editor", it makes any kind of movement toward consensus impossible. This is why WP:AGF is so important. Colin M (talk) 01:29, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Colin M, I disagree with your assessment of that as non-restrictive. Wikipedia guidance pages are not written with such legalistic precision, and the clear intent of the sentence as a whole is that the goal is to create portals with "large numbers of interested readers and portal maintainers". AFAICs, the the essential meaning of the thought is disturbed by the clarification of the goal, so in my view the relative clause is restrictive.
It also seems to me to be a breach of commonsense to suggest that a portal is viable if it is unread and has rotted because it has no maintainers.
I can respect your different interpretation, while disagreeing with it. That is usually the sort of point on which there is reasoned disagreement, and possibly an RFC to establish consensus for a clarification ... but my complaint about NA1K's omission is that in discussion where those very problems of readership and maintenance were being discussed, they repeatedly acted as if those other words simply did not exist. That is the deceit, and it is the systematic omission which impeded consensus. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 03:13, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support for #1 BHG is violating WP:HARASS through examples like: this, this, and this. What is even more concerning is that BHG is an admin, a privilege that is meant to be a role model for examplar Wikipedia behavior. NA1K is a victim of harassment from someone who does not learn from their previous mistakes. It is unbelievable that an admin can be this disrespectful of their peers. AmericanAir88(talk)19:06, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I put that on my userpage back when NorthA was considering retirement. I wanted to remind the public of the good and benefit they are to encyclopedia. It is not bias, it is the truth. Also why did you leave out "Please do not retire, we as a community support you"? Are you trying to shorten it to make me look worse? I am clearly stating my opinion based on the evidence and sides given. I am not a yes-man to NA1K, I am an individual human who wants to improve the encyclopedia and stand for what is right. AmericanAir88(talk)19:23, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
While this can be seen as a potential WP:COI or w/e the reasoning, the provided diffs with things such as NA1K is either an idiot or a liar or both is concerning. This is focusing on the editor rather than the debate. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:25, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
AmericanAir88, Agree completely. That's what troubles me the most is the harassment and incivility of another administrator. I thought admins were supposed to be above this sort of thing. That does not mean they are not infallible, but BHG's apparent reluctance to see where she erred is what troubles me most. Someone said above there is no consensus as to desysoping procedures, which is also problematic if ArbCom is the only solution. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the Bureaucrats have discretionary authority to desysop an admin under limited circumstances. Doug MehusT·C19:29, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
AmericanAir88 writes NA1K is a victim of harassment from someone who does not learn from their previous mistakes, and provides three diffs: this, this, and this..
Those three diffs are of edits where I provide evidence to show that NA1K was systematically lying in order to WP:GAME the system and thereby disrupt consensus-forming processes. That is not harasssment.
It seems that AmericanAir88 is appalled by an editor being called a liar, but entirely unconcerned about the fact that the admin NA1K has lying in order WP:GAME the system,and that NA1K did so in support of a massive beach of WP:NPOV. That says a lot about the priorities of AmericanAir88, and not in good way. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 01:05, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am not appalled by an editor being called a liar, I am appalled that someone of admin status, like yourself thinks they can treat their peers this way. It is not just these examples I provided, you have been proved to harass other users and make untrue claims such as calling NA1K a "liar". I see no violation of WP:NPOV on NA1K's end and only see it on yours. You target this user, you not only target them: You harass and obsess over them. I'm not here to argue, I am here to state that NA1K is not in the wrong and I am shocked by the amount of disrespect you have given me and other editors. AmericanAir88(talk)01:09, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@AmericanAir88: I called NA1K a liar because they were lying. I stand by that assertion, and have provided evidence to support it, which you sadly choose to ignore.
I am appalled that someone of admin status, like NA1K, treats their peers so badly by lying to them repeatedly. Their repeated deceit is incompatible with adminship.
And I do not target this user. I respond to their repeated lies.
@BrownHairedGirl: Like I said above, I am not here to argue. I can pull evidence from plenty of previous discussions and your edit summaries as evidence that you are harassing and targeting users. Accusation is not the way to hold a discussion and you are personally accusing NA1K of something they had no intention of doing. Also, how would you know where NA1K lives and if they are making UNDUE edits? Your claim of NA1K having UNDUE edits and a violating NPOV is you trying to start trouble. Again, I do not want to argue and I want to be civil. However, I believe you are harassing and being disrespectful to editors and you need to be held accountable for your actions. AmericanAir88(talk)02:26, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@AmericanAir88:: User:Northamerica1000 carries a userbox which says this user lives in the United States of America. I relied on that statement. Is that unreasonable?
It is strange that you dismiss this evidence of bias as me trying to start trouble. If you genuinely want to be civil, that ABF dismissal of my noting a breach of core policy is an perverse way to go about it.
NA1K has had plenty of opportunity to express good faith by saying something to the effect of "oops! yes, that was unintended, but not acceptable. My bad. Needs a fix before it goes live". Instead they have been saying variants of 'former guideline made me do it', which is not true, and 'set of articles made me do it', which is also untrue.
As to accusation ... NA1K posted to the MFD 14 hours before I did, accusing me of making a series of rapid, drive-by edits. NA1K neglected to acknowledge the reason for my revert and instead complained that I had made difficult to update portals. From the info which NA1K belatedly posted at the MFD, I found that the concern over the effects of a hidden article list was justified: NA1K's hidden article list is a POV violation.
If you do not want to argue, why critcise me accusation, but say nothing to say about NA1K opening the discussion with an accusation against me about a revert I made for reasons are justified by the facts? NA1K's massively-POV list would have been spotted promptly if had been visible on the face of the portal. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 03:52, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all portals and topic-ban all Wikipedia editors from ever discussing portals again. It's the only way to be sure. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:10, 10 November 2019 (UTC) (Not entirely serious, but it would be an improvement over this continued warring.)[reply]
Support 2 way iban Support Guy's proposals #3,#4 & #5 - most especially proposal 3, which I'd ideally like to be a no fault iban. While on a much bigger scale, this reminds me of the feud between Dream & Hijiri88 – both excellent editors in different ways, but months of drama followed once they began interacting. The iban they had in Jan seems to have been effective in ending the feud. It was later clarified that both could continue to post in project spaces like ARS, both could post on AFDs etc, they just needed to not talk about each other. Hence Im not sure we need to ban either of them from Portals at this stage, and Id prefer the ban to be no fault. FeydHuxtable (talk) 20:48, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support #1. As an involved editor my opinion may be predictable, but BHG's behaviour is unacceptable and cannot be allowed to continue. The diffs quoted clearly show which contributors are conducting themselves in a civil manner, and that this is not a symmetrical dispute with both sides equally at fault. It would be very unfair to also sanction an editor whose only crime is to be selected repeatedly as a target for abuse. Certes (talk) 22:40, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sadly, it was entirely predictable that Certes would pile on to support NA1K's diff-farming exercise of mendacity. NA1K created a pile of diffs to "prove" that I had done [need quotation to verify] as NA1K ... yet in reality, the substance of it is that I did almost the exact opposite. The diffs show that I repeatedly noted that the former guideline had been risible; by contrast NA1K cited the guideline as justification for breaching a core policy.
Certes's endorsement of NA1K's reality inversion is a large factor in why portal disputes have become so toxic. NA1K's mendacity and incompetence has persisted because it is repeatedly endorsed by NA1K's cheerleaders and enablers such as Certes, who if they had sufficient competence and integrity would long ago have been asking NA1K to desist.
The fact that Certes's chooses even now to endorse NA1K's lies and smear tactics is just evidence that Certes also needs restraint.
I am heartily sick of accused of "bullying", "harassment" etc for calling out this co-ordinated campaign of mendacity. This project is supposed to be about building a encyclopedia where verifiability is a core policy, and the anti-truth antics of the likes of NA1K in support of their prolific incompetence should have no place in it. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 23:08, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Where is your evidence for this? Sadly, it was entirely predictable that Certes would pile on Are you suggesting that this editor came here to target you? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:13, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The issue needs to go to arbcom, where evidence will be properly presented and personal attacks will be subject to clerking. The disorderly proceedings here make portals look good. Andrew D. (talk) 00:02, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't between two editors though anymore, it is clear from those supporting that BHG has rubbed a number of editors the wrong way. She may be right with her arguments, but in no way does that excuse the poor behavior presented. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:10, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose topic bans and interaction bans. Support an RfC that results in the creation of guidelines for portals. I've closed a lot of the MfD's on these portals, and while some of the discussions have been heated, I haven't seen any that have risen to the level that would justify a topic ban or interaction ban for either of these editors. Having an actual agreed-upon guideline would calm down the whole situation, as it wouldn't require the constant stream of individual portal MfD's, which seem to be causing friction on both sides. ‑Scottywong| [communicate] ||01:59, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Scottywong: I have very limited involvement in XfD and don't close discussions but wow, are regular accusations that the other editor is lying or an idiot, or deceitful or being deceptive or making sneaky changes or has low intelligence or whatever else really a level that is normal enough not to justify a topic ban or interaction ban? (Yes I've concentrated on one of the editor's here, because the other editor's problems are more complicated.) Nil Einne (talk) 02:36, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
While I would agree that these discussions could be more civil, I also understand that this is a difficult topic and passions run high on both sides. I think that BHG has some valid points, but also agree that those points could be expressed in a more civil manner. My opinion is that this is a relatively minor problem, that should be resolvable without resorting to extreme measures like banning these editors from participating in anything related to portals. In short, I agree that there is a problem, I disagree that items #1-3 in this proposal contain the right solution to that problem. ‑Scottywong| [squeal] ||02:58, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My view is that clearly these haven't and most likely can't be resolved without extreme measures. It's been several months. And yet we still have this sort of terrible behaviour. Further, while I'm sure many will attest I often make long posts, I can help but notice every time one of these threads opens on ANI it's soon filled with very very long back and forths mostly (although far from exclusively) between Northamerica1000 and BrownHairedGirl which partly drown other discussions. It's hard for me to imagine how there's any simple solution, or that it's a minor problem which IMO partly explains why we're still here months later.
And on the topic of the personal attacks, while I've just told another editor that sometimes they need to put stuff said about them they disagree with aside, there is also a limit. IMO these attacks seem to have well breached that limit especially since they are persistent, and I find it very disappointing if we don't treat them that way. It can't be easy to work with someone when they keep saying you have a low intelligence, are a liar etc and I don't think we should expect editors to do so. As I've said before, it's possible to say someone lacks the competence to edit in a certain area without needing to say they have a low intelligence. There comes a point where we have to say enough is enough, and IMO we're well past that.
A particular problem which BrownHairedGirl doesn't seem to understand is that her attacks are not only angering those she is opposing, they are angering those like me who don't give a fuck about portals. She may have some valid points, but they're often not coming across because she is so terrible at making them.
And ironically her own words IMO provide a rationale for why it's fair to take action. She lacks the WP:Competence to be able to edit in this area without editing in such away she just puts every off by what she says. I don't know why, and I don't think it matters. I definitely don't think there's any reason to think it has anything to do with her intelligence. But IMO based on the available evidence, it would be best if she is forced aside from the area for the betterment of wikipedia. I'm sure there are others who can argue her PoV, and they'll probably do it far more successfully when BHG hasn't managed to turn everyone against her "side" by her behaviour. (I'm not saying this is a good thing, but I think we have to be realistic that when one of the most outspoken supporters of a PoV is coming across so poorly, it's difficult for that not to colour people's perceptions.)
Frankly since I only really know about these from when they make them to AN//I, I would be fine just banning any mention of portals on one of the noticeboards for a year and letting them fight it out elsewhere. But I know that's not fair to those involved, nor will it actually solve the problem since someone still has to deal with all the MfDs and other problems that arise.
Support #1 - This has become disruptive to the project. There is no rush regarding deleting these portals. How is the project harmed if we leave them be? If an ordinary editor had behaved in this manner would we be here debating? Lets give portals a break. They will still be here in 6 months. Lightburst (talk) 02:16, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Specifically in regard to BHG's conduct, I've created a page listing a few highly uncivil quotes written by BHG in this ANI section. (User:Vermont/BHGANI) I've left my opinions above, although I hope that her blatant incivility in this section, towards multiple editors, sways those on the fence. Vermont (talk) 04:12, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support #1-5 - In anything but the least contentious areas, 1,000s and 100,000s of edits indicate a ferocity beyond natural limits, and naturally induces panic. On this date, an armistice must be declared in the portal wars, enforced upon the resisting combatants. An RfC and guideline (maybe call it a charter?) must guide future developments in the portal area. Excess does not recognize itself, as surely seen in either TTH or BHG. Shenme (talk) 04:14, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose ArbCom is the best venue for these disputes to be resolved as much as possible, which have been intractable in all other venues for many months. I am strongly against punishing @BrownHairedGirl in any way for her remarkable and selfless work cleaning up the portal mess created by others. My personal experience with her as an editor has been informative. We first interacted at CfD and clashed because I didn't know what I was doing there and she called it out, but I had the fortitude to understand I had screwed up in my votes, corrected them, and apologized to her. Our wiki-relationship has had its ups and downs since (yeah, I called her a troll before, which I bet portal fans never realized from our interactions at MfD), but overall, she has been very gracious editing and collaborating with me despite heated clashes and unkind words in the past.
It would be absurd to topic ban her from portals or take away her adminship when the two principal issues at play here are: the swarms of unread junk portals a handful of editors randomly defend for reasons none can articulate and NA1K's ridiculous actions, neither of which are her fault. She's spent well over 1,000 hours over the last seven months cleaning up an enormous mess others created, so please give it a rest that she is in any way the problem in portal-land, which was a 15-year joyride in a candy store that responsible adults have been cleaning up. Newshunter12 (talk) 05:19, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support #2, #3, and #4 if the community thinks that it can resolve this. User:BrownHairedGirl is right on all of the technical issues, and has been trying to pull together an RFC, but has faced opposition from the supporters of portals. However, it is clear that these two editors cannot get along and really do need to be interaction banned. BHG is mostly right that the arguments advanced by User:Northamerica1000 are inconsistent and incorrect, but should not be characterizing them as lies. However, it would be better to let ArbCom handle the matter first, and then see what can be done on content. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:50, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
ArbCom is necessary here, I'm afraid. My frustration with this conflict stems largely from BHG, who - the best and most recent example is here - has continually attempted to block any improvement of portals by saying that we need to have RfCs to determine portal structure and content, while voting to delete almost all portals in spite of a total lack of policy or guidelines on which portals should be kept or deleted. It's a continuous double standard and it's bringing a battleground mentality to an already very contentious area, and it's ending up being incredibly difficult for editors like myself who just want to contribute to the project constructively. I don't see any way forward without ArbCom. SportingFlyerT·C06:53, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support #1 BHG’s conduct has frankly been reprehensible. Other options should be examined, even desysoping or a recall. This is not acceptable behavior from anyone, let alone an admin. ToaNidhiki0516:27, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support #1 BHG's repeated personal attacks need to stop and it is clear that she won't stop voluntarily. I am strongly against taking this matter before the current iteration of ArbCom. They've mishandled too many other situations to be trusted with this one. Lepricavark (talk) 21:02, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose sanctions, support RfC per ScottyWong and BF. Also, I doubt an Arbcom case would be helpful. What's needed is a guideline. – Levivich00:00, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So, BHG recently wrote on her talk page: "So sustained incivility directed at me is fine, but my incivility in response is unacceptable? Wow." To me, this demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of our civility policies, and the place of an administrator as someone who should respond to incivility with maturity and rationality rather than mirroring those who they percieve as uncivil. I believe their level of incivility is significantly worse than anything I've seen from NA1k, although even assuming that NA1k was uncivil, BHG's thought that it's perfectly justifiable to respond in turn is worrying. Thoughts? Vermont (talk) 02:36, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My thought is how wrong I was to assume that my replies to Vermont on my talk page were part of a discussion with an editor who was making a good faith effort to talk civilly about a disagreement. I could and possibly should have halted the discussion when Vermont opened by making false assertions based on their failure to to do 30 seconds of checking before posting, but I foolishly AGfed that there was no malicious intent.
Vermont has already disregarded my request to stay off my talk, and their post here indicates that their aim in the discussion seem to have been to take a quote out of context and weaponise it.
You told me I would be welcome to comment on your talk page if I retracted the statements that I copied from you. I specifically retracted them. Stop trying to pretend I'm at fault here. I left a response to you, using your exact wording which you rudely used to describe NA1k. You told me it is "spectacular rudeness" and uncivil, which it is, and when faced with the fact that you wrote it, you reverted my edit and kicked me off your talk page. As I explained, my intention was solely to show to you how rude you are to people who you disagree with, and that you should stop. And no, that quote was not taken out of context; you recognized your replies to NA1k and others are uncivil, but you don't yet recognize how your incivility is against policy. Vermont (talk) 03:00, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Considering past comments, I could reasonably predict a decent-length wall of text that skirts around the whole bit about her writing rude comments to people and focuses on attacking me for asking her to be civil. Vermont (talk) 03:03, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Vermont, I used the phrase "word soup" to describe a tautologous phrase conveyed no meaning. You abused it to describe a lengthy, reasoned reply, and you have confirmed that your intent as to provoke.
That's cheap trolling, and I have no time for it.
Your statement now that your intention was only to provoke me into something you could cite as rudeness is proof of absolutely nothing other than your own bad faith abuse of my openness to discussion. Your conduct was an uncivil attempt to play disruptive games. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 04:14, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You are not allowed to be uncivil to people, I am not allowed to be uncivil to people, NA1k is not allowed to be uncivil to people, no one is allowed to be uncivil to people. You have no right whatsoever to look at someone else's argument, one which they may have spent much more than 10 minutes on, and discount it as junk while regarding your own argument as reasoned and correct. Of course you think you're right, everyone thinks they're right, but that gives you no special priviledge to insult other people while believing you're immune to the 4th pillar of our community. And now you've called me a troll, bad-faith, uncivil, and disruptive, for quoting your words back to you. The people who you used those terms on, Na1k and others, how do you think they felt? Do they not have every right that you do to contribute in an environment free of insult? What about when you called me incompetent in an effort to discount my attempts at an argument at MfD? It's necessary that you recognize your actions in applying rude and uncivil terms against other people, which you recognize are rude and uncivil, is not okay. What if I had called you incompetent, a word which you've used on numerous occasions in discourse? You have no special pass to be uncivil, whether it be because you think you're right, an administrator, or anything else. Incivility is what causes editors to leave our community, and you're doing nothing but perpetuating it with the double-standard I've outlined here. Vermont (talk) 10:46, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose any sanction against BHG unless someone can produce statistics showing that a majority of the portals she has nominated for deletion end up being kept after community discussion. When I stopped participating in the MfDs, BHG's track record was very good—uninvolved editors supported her arguments. Then the pushback started from those that like glitter. Sorry if I missed it, but has anyone ever tried addressing BHG's accusations concerning NA1K beyond exclaiming how naughty the words are? Obviously BHG has become frustrated but that would be due to lack of engagement with the underlying issue. Solving the portal issue based on who can be nice while engaged in a battle won't work. Johnuniq (talk) 03:08, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That seems backwards. Shouldn't the real question be whether or not her accusations have ever been proven? Generally, one doesn't need to fall back on rhetoric and insults when a good case can be made without them. Lepricavark (talk) 03:37, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Has anyone asked BHG what she is getting at? Has any response been analyzed? My point is that simplistic hand waving is not suitable when there is such obvious conflict over an important issue (should there be limits regarding what portals are created?). BHG is known to be a good and civil editor so the background that has led to the current situation calls for investigation. Johnuniq (talk) 05:55, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:Johnuniq, User:Lepricavark - The statistics that I have been recording on portals do not include who nominated them, but the large majority of the portals that have been nominated for deletion have been deleted, and I am not aware of any portals that were nominated by User:BrownHairedGirl that have not been deleted. Her nominations continue to be detailed and well-researched. Yes, I have "asked BHG what she is getting at". What she is getting at is that User:Northamerica1000 is making unilateral changes to portals in order to improve them to prevent their deletion, but that BHG thinks that the changes do not improve the portals enough to warrant keeping them, and that BHG thinks that NA1k's changes are arbitrary and introduce systemic bias and have other disadvantages. BHG has also objected to the very large number of portals for which NA1k had self-designated as a portal maintainer (at one time as high as 42, although nearly all of those have now been dropped). No one has raised any technical issues that I know of about what BHG has said, except that she has been very uncivil. Johnuniq is correct that the only real criticism of BHG is precisely that her words are naughty, but no one really is answering whether the portals are crud or whether NA1k is making sneaky changes to the portals. My own conclusion is that what NA1k is doing to the portals is something of an improvement, but not enough to warrant keeping them, and that it is being sneaky, and it is introducing systemic bias. That is my analysis, anyway. Robert McClenon (talk) 08:26, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Robert McClenon: It's unfortunate that you are dismissing repeated, rank incivility as mere naughty words. It's also unfortunate that you and Johnuniq can review the above thread, full of BHG posting massive walls of text and attacking the good faith of anyone who disagrees with her, and wonder why people (aside from you, Robert) aren't asking her what she means. However, if were are content to set aside BHG's repeated abuse so that we can launch further accusations of sneakiness at NA1K, then on what basis should we do so? How has he been sneaky (which is an accusation of deliberate bad faith on his part)? And don't refer me to any of BHG's comments. I have no intention of wading through any of her grandiose haystacks hunting for the mythical needle of substance. Lepricavark (talk) 14:30, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:Lepricavark - I was quoting User:Johnuniq when I referred to "naughty words", and recognize that that choice of words minimizes User:BrownHairedGirl's incivility. I am also aware that her incivility diverts attention from the fact that she is almost always right on the facts about portals, and that, because she is insulting other editors, is being ignored on the technical merits. I know why BHG is saying and doing what she is doing. She is being right, but so uncivil and unpleasant that she is being ignored. I don't know why User:Northamerica1000 thinks that it is necessary to save as many portals as possible. I have repeatedly asked the advocates of portals what the purpose of portals is, and I usually don't understand their answers, so that I think that portals must have some mystical appeal to some editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:09, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:Lepricavark - I didn't say that User:Northamerica1000 was being sneaky or acting in bad faith. I said that NA1k was making unilateral changes to large numbers of portals to prevent their deletion, often during or immediately before a deletion discussion, but was introducing systemic bias in the process, and had been designating themselves as a portal maintainer for a very large number of portals, and then backed off from that load. User:BrownHairedGirl characterized making all of those changes as sneaky, and that is because the changes are not documented or explained. BHG said that NA1k was acting in bad faith. I have said that NA1k is doing things that are inconsistent and that are not explained. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:40, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Robert McClenon: this is a quote from you, with emphasis added: My own conclusion is that what NA1k is doing to the portals is something of an improvement, but not enough to warrant keeping them, and that it is being sneaky, and it is introducing systemic bias. That is my analysis, anyway. That comment reads differently from your most recent comment. At any rate, we have one admin repeatedly attacking the competence of another admin. They can't both be right and we can't just ignore it at this point. We've reached the stage where either NA1K really is incompetent and should be dealt with accordingly or BHG has made repeated, unsubstantiated personal attacks and should be dealt with accordingly. And I really don't believe that NA1K is incompetent. Lepricavark (talk) 18:53, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is pretty much getting to the nub of the argument here. BHG is making personal attacks and failing to assume good faith, whereas NA1K is making improvements to pages that are nominated for deletion (of course without making them perfect in the limited time available). The first flies in the face of policy, but the second is normal good practice. There is no equivalence between their behaviours. I say this as someone who would be happy to see portals disappear completely, but that is totally irrelevant to discussion of behavioural issues. Indeed one of the reasons that I have declined to state my opinion in any discussion about portals is that anyone who doesn't agree 100% with what BHG says gets flamed, and I prefer not to have to deal with such issues in the limited time that I have to edit Wikipedia between my postgraduate study and looking after my grandson. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:10, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:Lepricavark - Oops. I misquoted myself. No, User:Northamerica1000 is not acting in bad faith. They believe that what they are doing is for the good of the encyclopedia. Yes, they are doing it behind the scenes, without consultation, which can reasonably be characterized as sneaky, and is being characterized that way by User:BrownHairedGirl. They both are doing what they are doing for what they see as the good of the encyclopedia. BHG is right on the merits that the portals are crud and that NA1k is making minimal improvements to them that do not warrant keeping them. BHG is also being so uncivil that she is distracting from the technical correctness of her argument. Yes, no, this should have stopped in the past. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:56, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support All. When half of a long discussion at ANI is taken up by the two editors continuing their battleground behaviour against each other you something needs to be done. Arbcom isn't a stupid idea either, but lets at least get this one underway to start with. AIRcorn(talk)06:24, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Johnuniq above any sanction against BHG unless someone can produce statistics showing that a majority of the portals she has nominated for deletion end up being kept after community discussion. BHG says above that an editor created (portals) at sustained speeds of up to one per minute, some of them just for the heck of it, and lamented their inability to produce them faster. Most of this portalspam was deleted in April in two mass deletions of similar portals (one, and two), with overwhelming consensus of a very high turnout. I participated in those discussions back then and thought that was the end of it. I can't believe this is still going on. Those portals were junk, BHG worked very hard to clear up the disgraceful mess, she should be commended, not sanctioned.Smeat75 (talk) 21:00, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The mass creation of portals was almost entirely reverted in April 2019. The vast majority of the portals nominated for deletion since then were much older. Certes (talk) 12:04, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
AS I just noted at that MFD[8], if and when any topic ban is implemented, I will respect it, as I hope other editors will also respect any bans. But no decision has yet been made. The other party to that discussion is NA1K, for whom a topic ban has also been proposed. Since that ANI discussion opened, NA1K has started three portals MFDs: MFD:Portal:Schleswig-Holstein, MFD:Portal:Geography of Kenya and MFD:Portal:UK waterways. If you want some sort of moratorium pending resolution of the ANI, then you should feel free to propose it, but it seems to me that what you are doing here is to make a partisan prejudgemnet of the outcome
My apologies, I was unaware or had forgotten about the other new portal discussions since this thread opened. I generally feel that all parties should take this thread seriously. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:41, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support the proposed topic and interaction bans. It's possible that portal-related disputes will eventually end up at Arbcom, but the community should make an effort to address the problems first. Oppose a suspension of portal deletion discussions, as there have been multiple instances of portals that merited deletion under any plausible standards. The problem is not that some portals are being deleted; it is the behavior of some participants in the portal deletion (and other portal-related) discussions. As far as having another portal-related RfC goes, that hardly seems to require the endorsement of ANI. --RL0919 (talk) 16:49, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose interaction bans and topic bans. A moratorium only makes sense if it's both on creation and deletion. The need for hundreds of separate deletion discussions is a direct consequence of the conclusion of WP:ENDPORTALS (see also Wikipedia:The Problems with Portals for some more links) and it's not BrownHairedGirl's fault, while other users have chosen to repeatedly filibuster the individual examination of portals. I am skeptical about the idea that yet another wide RfC might reach any useful conclusion; it's only a way to waste more time and produce more hard feelings. If there is a concern about consistent criteria for deletion, I would suggest to appoint a working group to divide all the remaining portals in a few dozens groups of portals in similar situations, and then open group deletions in short succession, giving 1-3 months to discuss all the remaining portals. This would allow a larger participation without forcing people to follow small discussions for months or pile on in big drama shows. Nemo17:05, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If so, what should be the criteria that define an active portal
Miniumum number of active editors?
Minimum number of edits per month?
Update frequency (i.e. number of updates rather than number of edits per update)?
Article updates?
Page views?
Absolute or relative to something else (e.g. main topic page)?
Should we have an anti-gaming criterion?
Updates by editors who do little other than portal updates across multiple topics?
Updates by editors new to the portal, that a reasonable person would perceive as gaming (WP:CLUE)?
What should be the removal process?
XfD, PROD, CSD?
How to prevent "school wars" style voting blocks?
Are there any arguments (other than activity) that are or are not normally relevant to whether a portal should or should not be deleted?
Should there be a bar to creation?
Should there be a review period for newly related portals, e.g. after 12 months, with a low-bureaucracy removal period if they have not survived the initial enthusiasm?
Should there be a bar to nomination for deletion?
Nominations by editors who do little to no constructive work on portals?
Nominations by editors who do little to no work in the topic area?
Nominations by editors who have nominated this or similar portals before?
Nominations who are engaged in a dispute about the contents of the portal?
Nominations by editors who have made significant changes to the portal recently?
What does "recently" mean?
Repeated nominations of the same portal?
Number of concurrent nominations?
Should deletion nominations that fail to advance a reason specific to the individual portal(s) nominated be speedily kept?
Should we continue to link and reference portals from the banner on the Main Page?
In general, should we increase, decrease, or keep-the-same the prominence of portals across the wiki, from the perspective of directing users there?
Thank you for the assumption of bad faith. These are simply questions that should be answered by the RfC, I fully expect that the answer to many of them will be that the restriction is not needed but it is important that comparable restrictions for both sides are discussed by the community. Thryduulf (talk) 14:56, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thryduulf, the bad faith did not need to be assumed. It is structurally bound into your suggestion that only the creators of a particular type of page should be allowed to propose its deletion, because that rigs the field in favour of the creators. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 15:13, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I fully support Guy's proposal. I'm sick and tired of... well, this. At this point, anyone looking for proof that the portal crusade has gotten out of hand in terms of incivility and bad faith need only look up. WaltCip (talk) 15:07, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've added two more questions about the prominence of portals (one on the Main Page, one more general.) A lot of people seem to be discussing that aspect, and I think we might want to consider whether it is useful or helpful to direct users to portals. I'm extremely skeptical about some of the suggestions to try and revive portals by making them more visible - they've been prominent for a long time, and don't seem to be accomplishing what they were intended for going by the relatively low views and participation. This makes it hard to see why we should be sending users there in their current state. The suggestions to make them even more prominent seem like a solution looking for a problem - all indications seem to be that most users don't need or want portals, and that they're generally just an unnecessary bit of cruft and complication. We can leave the active ones around for the people who use them while sunsetting the general push to make them a major part of the wiki (which, I think, we can all agree had failed, and which it seems hard to justify doubling down on.) --Aquillion (talk) 11:46, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – As discourse at this overall ANI discussion involves portals and users have expressed some significant interest in portals herein, below is a neutrally-worded, non-partisan notification (as per WP:APPNOTE) regarding a request for comment I have devised.
A request for comment regarding the use of direct transclusion in portals and the newer portal transclusion templates is occurring at the Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) page, here.
I am shocked. In the last month I have made numerous proposals to have an RFC on these matters, and have repeatedly asked NA1K to work with me to create a neutrally-constructed RFC to resolve them. NA1K has consistently failed to take up that offer.
Now NA1K has opened an RFC without any attempt at the prior consultation which I have repeatedly offered ... and did not even have the courtesy to notify me of the RFC, despite being very well aware that I have been the major critic of NAIK's ideas.
The RFC which NA1K has opened is appallingly badly structured, because its two questions do not in any way indicate he existence the key issue which I have raised both in my reverts and in many subsequent discussions: the fact that the methods used by NA1K leave the portal with no visible, linked list of the articles used in the portal. This issue is also not mentioned in the lengthy post by NA1K in reply to the nomination, which uses first mover advantage to frame the discussion.
There is absolutely no remotely plausible way in which NA1K could be unaware of this issue. They have been a party to discussions about it at:
ANI last month, where NA1K posted repeatedly about several dozens of reverts I had made, in all of which my edit summary noted sneaky addition of dozens of articles which are neither listed anywhere visible nor disclosed in edit summaries, let alone discussed (e.g. [10])
NA1K has ignore my repeated requests for collaboration, and has instead opened an RFC which they have framed in a way so as tho exclude the key issue in dispute. They have both omitted any mention of my concern, and also omitted from their list of examples cases such as Portal:Wind power, which combines the use of transclusions with a visible list.
This RFC is the complete of opposite of the RFC principle of neutrally framing the issues to seek community comment. On the contrary, it is an attempted stitchup: an attempt to force a decision to be made by considering only the technical issues, while excluding the scrutiny-and-content-quality issue which I have repeatedly raised. So far, it appears to be playing out just as NA1K hoped: their partisan proposal and partisan description of the issues is receiving overwhelming support.
Given the protracted nature of the dispute behind this RFC, and the fact I have made repeated offers to collaborate with NA1K on drafting such an RFC, I cannot see any way in which a competent editor (let alone a competent admin) acting in good faith could have created an RFC which excludes the key point in dispute. WP:GAME says that "Gaming the system means deliberately using Wikipedia policies and guidelines in bad faith to thwart the aims of Wikipedia".
That is what NA1K has done here. It is just the latest instance of the multiple ways in such NA1K has sought to game Wikiedia's consensus-based decision-making processes, and which have led to me to use very harsh and direct terms about their misconduct. My language in response to this has been the subject the of severe criticism; but it has been in response to a long, long pattern of such gaming conduct by NA1K, who has now escalated their antics by blatantly manipulating the RFC process to secure retrospective consensus for the attempt at creating a WP:FAITACCOMPLI for their very poor-quality list-making which they obscured by technical means.
Right now, I see NA1K's gaming of the system raised to a whole new level. As a result, I am feeling more disillusioned about the whole nature of Wikipedia than I have felt in the near 14 years since I started editing here.
I had not previously been persuaded that the huge time-sink of an ArbCom case would be useful. But this latest action by NA1K is a new extreme, and I am shocked that NA1K feels entitled to so brazenly try to game the system while this ANI discussion is open. So I now believe that only an ArbCom case can properly examine the extraordinary scale and scope of NA1K's gaming of en.wp's processes ... but I am unsure whether I have the energy or will to spend weeks diff-farming to challenge the appalling conduct which I am seeing. I just feel physically sick that the wonderful, glorious ideal of a free, verifiable NPOV encyclopedia built by good-faith collaboration can be undermined by NA1K's sustained manipulative conduct, and that so many editors above seem willing to endorse it. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 02:19, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:BrownHairedGirl, he notified no one, except for the above template as well as notices at several places in Wikipedia space, and is is obliged to notify no one. Opening an RFC is not "appalling conduct" or "gaming the system"; it's the way we attempt to form a new consensus. They're typically open for a month, so there's no rush for you to voice your opinion. Please take a wikibreak; if Wikipedia is making you physically ill it's time to stop. — Diannaa🍁 (talk) 02:45, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh. @Diannaa, please read the whole of my post, where I note the cunningly partisan framing of the RFC by excluding the key issue in dispute. For some reason, you have sadly chosen to overlook all the substance of my post, and focus only a minor point. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 02:56, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Diannaa, it would have been helpful if you had explained why you believe that was appropriate for NA1K to spend a month ignoring requests to collaborate on an RFC, and then unilaterally frame an RFC to produce the answer which NA1K wants by excluding the key point of dispute. I would genuinely value your explanation, because from where I am sitting after 13 years as an en.ep and nearly 40 adult years involved in political decision-making processes, this looks to me just like the sort of stunt pulled by manipulative political operators, and nothing at all like the sort of collaborative consensus-building which is at the core of what I have always understood to be Wikipedia's principles.
For anyone just joining us, reading through the RfC is a perfect microcosm of this conflict. As I write, the RfC is currently 12 users for, 0 against, and 1 procedural close for "gaming the system" from the user above. This is a perfect example of how this user has tried to WP:OWN the entire portal discussion and is content to turn it into a battleground when necessary. The difference here is that portal discussions aren't as well attended, see the talk page of Portal:Australia where everyone had agreed on a way forward except for this user, who said an RfC was needed to make any changes. When an RfC was opened up, this user claimed it needed to be closed. When combined with a recent personal attack on the RfC's creator here, I don't see why we're continuing to put up with this sort of behaviour as a community. SportingFlyerT·C04:34, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
For anyone just joining us, reading SF's comment above is a perfect microcosm of the problem here.
SF doesn't actually engage with the substantive issue, or address the fact that the RFC has been designed to game the system by excluding a key issue from the headline question. Instead, SF follows the well-trodden portal-fan path of attacking the messenger without even mentioning the substance. This attack-the-critic rather than discuss-the-criticism approach has been a regular of portal discussions since the first debates back in February about speedily deleting the portalspam. If this whole matter ever gets to RFC, and if I have the energy to participate, I will be able to produce many dozens of diffs of similar conduct by a group of editors. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 06:15, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
BrownHairedGirl, if you want there to be an accessible list of all articles that could be transcluded, that could be an outcome of the current RFC, which I think only exists because you have repeatedly asked for RFCs. The "substantive issue" here is tiny and can be fixed in less than three minutes per portal thanks to user:Certes who coded the showall parameter. —Kusma (t·c) 08:55, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Kusma: there are actually many possible ways to resolve this, and as I have repeatedly pointed out a solution already existed in the shape of Portal:Wind power, which since Sept 2018 has combined transclusion with display of a visible list. NA1K doesn't even mention that.
But the fact remains that as you acknowledge I have been asking for a month for an RFC on that issue ... and NA1K has chosen to open an RFC on the technical issues which dictate that outcome, without even mentioning why the debate started. NA1K even goes so far as to provide a list of discussions which they carefully selected to omit the many discussions in which I raised that issue of a visible, linked list to facilitate scrutiny. Once again, NA1K is being sly, cunning and deceitfully selective instead of being open and collaborative.
That rigging of the debate's framing and of its list of previous discussions is the sort of deceitful, manipulative conduct which I have seen too many times in low politics, and it is completely contrary to the collaborative principles which are at core of Wikipedia's values. It is gaming the system, and I am utterly disgusted to see NA1K being supported in this sort of manipulative conduct. I didn't join Wikipedia to participate in the sort of manipulative scheming that I have seen so many times in so many political scenarios. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 09:31, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
BrownHairedGirl, again, this issue is fairly minor and not worth getting all that worked up about. A narrow reading of the RFC makes it completely pointless, as there has never been anybody who said transclusion from article space should be outlawed. As usual in RFCs, people have been trying to make it more useful by expanding the question into other directions: should other means of excerpting be outlawed, and should random transclusion be accompanied by a list? If you could focus on collaborating with the other people in the discussion instead of on NA1k and his behaviour, you could possibly even get consensus for a position of "random transclusion should usually be accompanied by a list". As an aside, the method used on Portal:Wind power only works well for portals with a reasonably narrow focus, and lacks a display of all possible transclusions (which is helpful for troubleshooting and for figuring out whether the entries are appropriate or not). —Kusma (t·c) 10:43, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Kusma: aaargh! if you could focus on collaborating
I do think it's a bit bold to start another RFC while we're already discussing much broader and comprehensive RFCs (especially since the outcome of those will probably be important enough to change the context of anything else.) That said, if you think that that RFC doesn't touch the locus of dispute at all, I would suggest starting your own that does - presuming they're genuinely separate issues, or only tangentially-connected ones, then it wouldn't really break anything to have RFCs for both at the same time. If their outcomes turn out to cause problems in a way that can't be reconciled, we might need a third RFC to split the difference. Really, though, it would probably be ideal to put a hold on RFCs until the much bigger comprehensive one described above happens, and to put other questions in that rather than starting a totally new RFC for them. Part of the problem here is that we've had a ton of RFCs and processes with different wording and sometimes-ambiguous outcomes, and nobody agrees on what they all mean. --Aquillion (talk) 18:53, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Evidence NA1k is not gaming the system
I want to highlight the fact BHG's concern is a relatively minor one, and an issue which was talked through at Portal_talk:Australia#Comments_and_analysis_by_BHG. I think the key diffs were here here (my proposal) and here (NA1k). I'm including these because my proposal demonstrates just how minor these adjustments are, that NA1k has agreed with them, and that specifically, NA1k has already agreed with the proposal BHG has made. NA1k was even the user who pinged Certes, the creator of the template, to see how easy it would be to edit the template to make the changes BHG requested! I don't think there's any question NA1k is NOT "gaming the system" with this RfC. They are not trying to push any specific viewpoint at the RfC which differs in any sort of material way from BHG's. The only potential criticism of NA1k is that they didn't accept BHG's offer to work together to propose the RfC, but I can hardly blame NA1k for not seeking BHG's input given the level of animosity between the two. The RfC has only been proposed because BHG threatened to continue blocking any progress on portals until a community consensus existed, even though local consensus had been established at that point!
The primary issue here isn't that BHG's points are invalid about portals - we do need to establish rules for portals - but that the way this particular user has behaved towards that process has been severely disruptive and full of personal attacks. We're now at a point where the first RfC is being solidly supported in spite of the fact NA1k, the user and administrator who suggested it, is a sneakylow competence editor who is also apparently either a liar, idiot, or both, which I think further demonstrates the level of disruption here. SportingFlyerT·C11:08, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
SF, I'll unpick that.
Note that the key issue in the October ANI was that I had reverted a few dozen portals to a version where there was a visible, linked list of articles, which allow the scrutiny that was impeded by NA1K's edit. You say that NA1K has accepted that; but at no point in that Australia discussion does NA1K explicitly accept that point. The closest they get to it is their post of 09:10, 18 October they ask about feasibility, which is a different issue, and state I don't think portal improvements such as this should entirely hinge upon whether or not a template is able to be changed, and that otherwise portals should remain unimproved. There are other ways to get the exact same result. So they are still trying to knock this back to being a technical issue rather than a key component.
In that Australia discussion I made the very point that Per WP:MULTI they should be decided in a central discussion, and per WP:LOCALCON they should seek broad community consensus through a properly advertised RFC. Sadly, the portal platoon is stubbornly resisting these basic principles of en.wp consensus-building, and instead is trying to keep these choices off the radar and hidden away as local discussions on individual pages. Yet you are now trying to tell me that fact an RFC has been opened proves how wrong I was to ask that there be an RFC.
That need for scrutiny has been amply illustrated at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Transport, where belated scrutiny after NA1K finally created a visible linked list showed that they had actually crated a massive breach of NPOV. It took five days after POV issue that was noted before NA1K belatedly acknowledged that they had indeed beached NPOV, tho the form of word used carefully avoided accepting any responsibility for that, by describing the edits in a passive voice.[12]
If, as you claim, NA1k has already agreed with the proposal BHG has made, why was there absolutely no mention of that point in the RFC? If it was accepted, then it should be been mentioned as a requirement for the templates. But it wasn't.
If, as you claim, NA1K is not a low competence editor:
why didn't NA1K explicitly state anywhere that they had accepted my point about a visible list?
if they had accepted it, why did they launch an RFC without noting that it needed to be achieved?
Why did the allegedly not-low-competence editor NA1K create a massive breach of NPOV which was undetected due to the lack of that visible list?
Why the allegedly not-low-competence editor NA1K rage at ANI in October at the reversion of non-transparent edits, when they now (according to SF) accept the need for that transparency, even though the need for scrutiny has been confirmed NA1K's half-hearted acknowledgement of their huge POV breach.
Enough. First, I'm absolutely astounded that you decided to make yet another personal attack against Northamerica1000 in your response. I'm also astounded that an administrator with your tenure and edit count fails to take a post which directly relates to your behaviour and turns it into a "well I was right" as if the ends justify the means.
Furthermore, every single point in your responses involves the other editor.
1. It seems as if your goal here was to hold all portals in a frozen state until an RfC was created and agreed upon. You reverted dozens of portals through a misuse of WP:BRD. (I'm not going to dig for diffs, but did you even discuss this with Northamerica1000 after they made these changes?)
2. I think this is categorically false, as demonstrated by my diff here - at no point were any of the involved parties trying to gain a local consensus in lieu of a general consensus. We were trying to gain a local consensus to immediately improve the Australia portal. You were not wrong to ask for an RfC, and you will note I proposed opening an RfC as part of the way forward. However there is nothing wrong with creating local "law" where no community-wide "law" exists, especially when the discussion has been relatively well-attended, and only one party dissents.
3. As an experienced administrator, you should have been either able to create a visible linked list or view the source without putting the burden on the other editor.
4. NA1k is under no obligation to satisfy you. You have been harassing them since at least April (that diff isn't necessarily harassment, but it's indicative of the start of this mess.) The RfC directly relates to your mass reversion of their work on portals because of their template choice. I have absolutely no idea why you chose to take the route of bulk reversion instead of using civil discourse, especially since the problem you identified was solved simply by pinging the creator of the template. You have used a gun to hammer in a nail, and yet you are standing here claiming your actions were justified because the nail currently holds the beam together, whereas we are all concerned about your choice of the gun, not at the result.
What I am in effect saying is that I am absolutely shocked an administrator of your stature has continually harassed another administrator for a period of half a year and I'm shocked you haven't been desysopped or banned. If I had chosen any one of your actions as a lonely five-digit-edit-count editor, I would have been very lucky to escape a block. If that doesn't clarify to you how seriously I'm taking your actions (as opposed to the outcomes of those actions, though one of those outcomes is this lengthy ANI thread), I don't know what will. SportingFlyerT·C04:57, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Reply to BrownHairedGirl: Northamerica1000 and you don't get along. That's obvious. And it's pretty obvious too to see why he would not be interested in working with you: the constant barrage of insulting, demeaning remarks you have directed his way. Instead of subjecting himself to more of that by attempting to work with you, he's decided to move forward on proposing changes to the way portal pages are constructed and independently opened an RFC, which is gaining support. This doesn't mean there's a cabal or a political conspiracy against you or that he's gaming the system or being sneaky; it simply means that consensus might be in favor of his proposals at this time. — Diannaa🍁 (talk) 12:14, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Diannaa, at the October ANI, I repeatedly stressed the need for RFCs. I did so many times after that closed, and I repeatedly sought collaboration to make a neutrally-framed RFC. At any point, NA1K could have said "no, I don't want to work with you", which any editor is entitled to do for whatever reason (WP:NOTCOMPULSORY). Instead the only comments they made to object to the principle of holding an an RFC ... until they decided to proceed unilaterally, and did so despite recent discussion at WT:POG where sever editors agreed on the need to define RFC questions
I get you message loud and clear: that my attempt to reach across the divide and collaborate on a neutral question was wrong, and that my choice not to act unilaterally was wrong ... but that NA1K's choice to proceed unilaterally without even acknowledging the key point in dispute was absolutely fine and dandy.
Your message is very loud and clear: that I should have acted unilaterally, and opened an RFC framed solely according to my priorities, and thereby gained first mover advantage. And I hate that way of working, I have been in too many work environments where that sort of stunt is pulled, and I know well how it is done ... but it's a really bad way of building consensus. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 03:22, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with the RFC proposals above is that they try resolving a problem by focusing on its symptoms rather than its causes.
The underlying causes of the problems with portals are fairly simple:
WikiPortals are functionally redundant to head articles, cross-linking, navboxes, and search. Readers don't need them and don't use them. (even the 8 portals linked from the prime place on the mainapge are massively underused compared to other mainpage items)
Nearly all WikiProjects have rationally abandoned the portals within their scope (thanks to User:Britishfinance for identifying this problem)
Most content-creating editors have also rationally abandoned portals for similar reasons.
Despite the evident functional redundancy and lack of reader interest, the community has declined either to delete all portals, or to lay down conditions for their existence.
That leaves most portals without wider scrutiny, and all of them without any guidelines
Some portals are developed or maintained by lone editors who bring demonstrable skill (e.g. Portal:Law/BD2412)
Most of the rest have become a playground in which portal enthusiasts with low general skills and no demonstrable expertise in a topic can make huge changes without scrutiny.
Portals do not require the normal intellectually-taxing editing process of discussing how to use which sources, which has left portalspace dominated by such low-skill editors. Some have technical expertise in tasks such as coding, but nearly all lack experience and skill with actual content, and lack skill both in applying policies and in discussing disagreements to reach consensus.
This low-skill group has found a comfortable niche in the vacuum created by the rational abandonment of portals by readers and content-creating editors. Portals are the only part of Wikipedia where they can design and maintain large reader-facing pages, with almost free rein on the content, because what little scrutiny is applied usually only comes only from within the low-skill group.
For example, Portal:Transport was one of dozens of portals rebuilt by a highly energetic but massively incompetent and serially mendacious editor, who built a hugely POV article list for the portal by a) maximising the number of articles with no regard to bias, even tho a smaller set could have been less biased; b) working off the assessment lists of only one Wikiproject, even tho there are 22 WikiProjects within the field. This level of stupidity doesn't last long in article space, where it is outnumbered by skilled editors, but it has flourished in the under-scrutinised portal space.
This low skill base of the portal crew as a whole is long-standing, and is evident in multiple ways: e.g. the failure to establish and sustain community consensus for guidelines on the nature of portals; the extraordinary flakiness of the former featured portals process, which conducted assessments with no checklist of criteria and focused overwhelmingly on presentation rather than on substantive content; the systemic failure of the portals project to assess the quality and importance of portals (most are unassassed); the ease with which they were lured into support/acquiescence with TTH's automation spree, and then for his spam; the persistence of
As has happens with content areas of Wikipedia which have become dsyfuctional walled gardens (e.g. longevity and its piles of GRG-cruft, or various types of fiction which became filled with fancruft), the portalspam episode triggered scrutiny by outsiders who have tried to trim the low quality cruft. This outside involvement has been bitterly resented by the portal fans, many of whom lack skills which would be transferable to actual encyclopedic content. For some of them, the low-quality magazine-style portals are the only area of Wikipeda where they can thrive, and they are understandably frightened and threatened by the squeeze on their ecosystem. They have responded with rage, low quality dissembling and deceptions, and with demands to exclude no-fans from scrutiny of portals.
This can be resolved only by the community resolving the core issues, roughly in this order:
Why keep portals when readers don't use them?
What precise purpose is supposed to be fulfilled by portals? These are pages which consist of a one-at-a-time display of articles from a non-prominent list of articles with no stated clear criteria. What exactly does this offer which is so important that we should keep it even thou readers don't want it?
To what extent do any portals actually fulfil that purpose?
How can a topic-based portal be sustained when the editors and WikiProjects who work on that topic have no interest in the portal?
Apart from deletion, how can we prevent under-scrutinised portals being effectively captured by incompetrent editors, as happened e.g. to Portal:Transport and Portal:Ghana, Portal:Chad
Oppose because this doesn't seem to address the core problem or, more accurately, question, either, which is why users aren't using portals. To me, they're not prominently placed on the homepage. Instead the homepage is cluttered up with useless "featured articles," "did you know" and "on this day" factoids, and featured photos. The sister projects and other areas of Wikipedia links are useful, but they're all located "below the fold." To me, the DYKs and FAs are useless wiki puffery in which editors clamour for getting their articles featured on the homepage. We waste TOO much time on DYK and FA voting instead of improving Wikipedia. The homepage should be, fundamentally, a navigation aid; not a collection of daily-changing article links. Doug MehusT·C17:29, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Dmehus, getting content on the Main Page is a fun little game that encourages some people to write better articles. It is not clear that taking away the motivation of seeing your article on the Main Page would make people volunteer more in other areas. As for your proposal of turning the Main Page into a navigation aid: we have Portal:Contents which tries that but doesn't do it well. —Kusma (t·c) 19:36, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Kusma, I agree with your comments on Portal:Contents not doing it well; it's too text heavy. I'm just saying, to me anyway, I find the Wikipedia homepage wholly irrelevant. Rarely does an interesting topic get featured I look it. In fact, of late, I've been accessing Wikipedia via the first article page that comes up (usually Canadian Tire Services or Motusbank, both now redirects to other pages). From there, I check my "Watchlist" and then check on a few WikiProjects; hence my thinking to making the Portals figure more prominently and have the FAs and DYKs take up much less "screen real estate." Doug MehusT·C19:40, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – In response to the neutral point of view concerns that have been presented regarding Portal:Transport, I have removed most, but not entirely all of the U.S.-based entries from the portal (diff). Removing all of the U.S. based portals would conversely present a non-neutral point of view of intentionally avoiding all U.S. based topics. Per this, I have also removed some U.K-related articles, because after removing the U.S.-based articles to balance it out, the portal would have been slightly slanted toward U.K. related topics.
The portal would certainly now benefit from more additions to further round it out in relation to presenting additional transport-related articles from various areas of the world. I hesitate to add any new articles to it, because at this point, article selections should be discussed on its talk page. Of course, now one could state that there are too many or not enough of one type or another type of topic present in the portal, such as it now having too many engine-related transport articles, as in articles involving transport regarding vehicles that use engines, not enough animal-powered transport articles, too many port-related and nautical-related articles, too many historical-related articles, too many articles that involve modern aspects of transport, not enough aviation-related articles, etc., and also vice-versa per these notions. Furthermore, it could be argued that some transport-related topics are presently not covered in the portal. So, if the portal is retained, I encourage talk page discussion to occur.
As I have stated at the MfD discussion, there was no intention of creating a non-neutral portal. Articles were added relative to WP:POG, where it states, "For the Selected article, Selected biography or other Selected content items, find a good number of articles, as many as you can, that could be showcased on the portal" that are "of high quality, either a featured article, a good article or one which deals with its subject substantially or comprehensively". While WP:POG is no longer a guideline page, many portals are still based upon it, and it is common sense to use high-quality articles in portals. However, I certainly understand that article selections in portals should not favor one geographic area over another, and that elements of systemic bias that may exist in various areas of English Wikipedia should not be reflected in portals.
The following is a list of articles that are used in the portal as transclusions after the above edit occurred on 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Northamerica1000's reply above contains several of the repeatedly problematic features of NA1K's conduct:
Use of the passive voice to describe their own actions: there was no intention of creating a non-neutral portal, Articles were added etc. This avoids accepting responsiblity for their actions.
Continued reliance on POG, even tho NA1K it had been delisted as a guideline, with NA1K's support. Yes, of course older edits were made in accordance with what was then tagged as a guideline ... but continued reliance on that page as a guideline for edits after it has been delisted with your enthusiastic support is not the conduct of a competent editor acting in good faith. Either it is a result of incompetence, or it is an attempt to game the system by having your cake and eating it.
NA1K now appears to accepts that the result of their edits was a breach of the core policy NPOV. But as well as using phrasing to evade responsibility for that, NA1K doesn't explain why they created such an extreme breach of NPOV. Did NA1K not bother to assess the result against NPOV? Or did they spot the problem, but not care?
NA1K has fixed some of the imbalance in this portal. But they also massively expanded the article list of dozens of other portals (I estimate about 70), and have not explained anywhere whether the same failure to uphold NPOV is a feature of any of the dozens of other lists.
@Dmehus: The en.wp main page gets an average of about ~16 million hits per day. The 8 highest-level portals are linked from the absolutely prime real estate on that page, but get only ~1500 hits per day each.
So even if we make the absurdly generous assumption assume that every hit for those portals comes from a mainpage link, that leaves us with less than one in every thousand visitors to the main page using even one of those very prominent portals.
Readers are voting with their feet, and shunning WikiPortals just as they shunned webportals as soon as better navigation tools became available in the late 1990s (powerful search, and massive cross-linking facilitated by CMSes). --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 20:27, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This still does not explain why your stopping progress on portals. Just cause you hate them is not a reason to block attempts at there improvement or to verbally rape other editors.--Moxy🍁00:15, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh. I am not stopping progress on portal. On the contrary, I have repeatedly asked NA1K to collaborate on opening RFCs to resolve key issues around how portals should be built, and that offer remains open.
Sadly, NA1K prefers to make unilateral decisions and create a widespread WP:FAITACCOMPLI, rather than build consensus. They prefer to sneakily and stealthily create a massive breach of POV, without even notifying the topical WikiProject ... and then cite in support of their efforts a guideline which was delisted with their support, which has in any case has never supported POV-pushing.
The Moxy notion of stopping progress on portals is no more than another of Moxy's bullying ways of saying that I am an evil cow for seeking transparency and consensus. It's all much the same logic as Moxy's efforts at MFD:Portal:Lighthouses to bully me into abusing my AWB tools to implement a personal preference of Moxy's for which Moxy refuses to seek consensus. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 00:51, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Why cant you look at yourself in the mirror here and see what you are doing wrong rather than going with a "everybody but me" kind of defense. Can you do a self evaluation to see why so many editors are saying the same things? you aren't at fault for arguments, you are at fault for your conduct. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:16, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
KK87, I have looked v hard. No amount of pile-on will alter my view that the structure and population of portals should be decided by consensus at RFC, rather than decided by one prolific editor trying to create a WP:FAITACCOMPLI. No amount of pile-on will alter my view that stealthily creating a black box portal with massive POV issues is a problem wrt core policy. No amount of anger from Moxy will alter my refusal to breach AWB rules.
My conduct is a mater of challenging these things. Sadly, it seems that there is much greater concern about the tone and language with which that is done than with the substantive problems, which remain unresolved. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 05:18, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@BrownHairedGirl: if you want an RfC, why didn't you just start working on one? If anyone refuses to work on you in designing the RfC then it's their own fault. By your own admission there are plenty of other "portal fans" who can work on you in making a good RfC. Provided you give Northamerica1000 and anyone else entitled to participate, the opportunity to participate, without continued name calling etc, and anyone who does participate gets equal voice, then it seems to me the community is likely to reject anyone's complaints about the RfC. (But these conditions do have to be met. For example, if you work on this in a personal sandbox and barely mention it to anyone else, don't be surprised if the community accepts that the drafting of the RfC wasn't done in a reasonable fashion given how contentious this whole thing is.) Of course if everyone else is so sick of portals that almost no one new participates in the RfC then I guess the outcome of the RfC isn't going to help, but still that doesn't seem to be your concern. From what I've seen, I imagine the more likely scenario is that the drafting of the RfC degenerates and you all won't be able to come to consensus what should be in the RfC which is why I supported all of Guy's proposals. At a minimum, I suggest you should first try to come agreement on how the final wording of the RfC should be decided that everyone is happy with. It would be good if User:Northamerica1000 explicitly agrees to participate in drafting an RfC but at the same time I can understand their reluctance to agree to something so abstract after all this time. Especially made in the middle of this highly contentious ANI. (I believe you said you made this proposal before, I don't know where and why Northamerica1000 didn't agree but IMO it's not worth discussing.) Nil Einne (talk) 09:25, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Nil Einne: I didn't start working alone on an RFC because that can look like a "please approve my draft" exercise.
I thought we were far more likely to get a productive process if the RFC evolved out of dialogue. And given the amount of disruptive unilateralism that has been happening around portals, I was trying to lead by example rather than simply creating my own fait accompli. Sadly, it seems that I was mistaken, and that the preferred modus operandi is to charge ahead unilaterally and then yell "bullying" etc when challenged. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 22:10, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@BrownHairedGirl: For clarity, I wasn't suggesting you start working alone on an RfC and then submit it for approval. I guess I didn't explain very well but I was suggesting that was the sort of thing which the community (and I don't mean those you may call "portal fans") is likely to reject such a process as flawed and is the sort of thing you shouldn't do. In fact, an RfC evolving out of dialogue was precisely what I was suggesting.
Find a place where it's suitable (as said, I think definitely no one's sand box) and mention briefly what you want to do. I have no idea if there is some sort of noticeboard that those involved in portals are likely to read, I suspect not from what I've read. In which case it would probably be fair to invite people to it using some process which isn't canvassing but ensures most who are highly interested in portals, whether generally supportive or opposed, are invited. I assume it's likely Northamerica1000 would end up invited in such a case, I would hope they would participate but if it not they would still have to accept the result of a fair process. Since you started it, it may be necessary to prod the process along by making some initial proposals and other stuff, it may not be.
Ultimately provided everyone is given a fair chance, IMO it will be hard for people to complain. But someone needs to at least initiate it. (As said, IMO the far bigger problem is what happens when you have a dispute, unfortunately I have no simple suggestions for that. A mini non advertised RfC on an RfC can sometimes help, but not always.)
My main point was there was no reason why Northamerica1000's not responding to your suggestion had to be a roadblock to developing any RfC. Nor would it mean the RfC wouldn't evolve in a fair process out of dialogue with all interested parties feedback and views taken on board fairly in it's development.
It seems to me this is the way to lead by example. And if I'm blunt, not what you've done. There's no need for anything to be unilateral or "fait accompli", but nor do you have to wait for any particular editor to respond. Especially since I believe you feel, there are plenty of our editors who's views are not that far from Northamerica1000. Continually fighting with another editor, to the extent that you are making personal insults that do not in any way advance the conversation, whatever their failings, is not in my book, leading by example.
I get that you strongly disagree with a bunch of stuff Northamerica1000 has done, but it doesn't justify what you've done, and maybe more importantly, what you've done IMO often hasn't helped anything. Personally, I think it would have been better to just ignore some of the stuff, while I haven't looked in great detail, even if the changes Northamerica1000 made were not beneficial, from what I saw none of it was so bad that it really matter so much if it was instantly reverted, let alone make such an aggressive challenge understandable even if I can understand why you weren't happy about the way it came about. Still if you wanted to challenge it, you could do so in a manner which didn't require all this, while continuing the development of the RfC with whoever else was taking part.
If you had developed a successful RfC with other interested parties, ultimately the portals NorthAmerica1000 worked on would need to comply. I think the community would rightfully reject any attempt by them to keep them in a manner which didn't comply with our guidelines simply because they just changed them when they were aware of the controversy and chose to go ahead anyway.
IIRC, I intentionally did not support any action against any editor last time this was at ANI precisely because I hoped someone would do something which would help improve the situation. From where I stand, you could have done that, but you didn't hence why we're here now and why I'm now supporting.
Again, you didn't have to do anything unilaterally or in a "fait accompli" manner. IMO you should have led by example by doing something which would hopefully help lead us out of the mess we're in now, precisely by starting a dialogue for an RfC (and whatever else). Actually, it was already a bit late by then as other than it already having IMO gone on for too long, I expect the process would have been more fraught than it needed to be since the parties clearly were quite annoyed with each other for various justified reasons which yes included what you'd said. (To be clear, I'm in no way suggesting that was the only thing, or that you didn't also have good reasons to be seriously annoyed.) But I still hope that even now, you all are able to put that aside and come up with something to put to the community and we won't know until it's tried.
Technically it could be anyone to start the process, including me. In fact having a neutral party who takes a more leading rule is often the best way to minimise problems. But I'm not interested especially given my often expressed attitude towards the portal disputes, and don't think I have the experience. And it's not clear to me anyone else is that interested. And frankly seeing all that's happened at ANI would likely put many off, and again yes this includes but is by no means exclusively referring to what you've said and done.
@Nil Einne: since we were discussing RFCs, please see the note I posted[13] below at WP:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#NA1K_is_gaming_the_system_again. Briefly, after a month of ignoring my request for an RFC, NA1K has attempted to game the system by unilaterally opening an RFC which frames the issue so as to entirely exclude the concerns which have repeatedly raised.
This is just the latest of dozens of episodes in which NA1K has tried to game the system. It has repeatedly provoked me to anger and to using harsh descriptions of the misconduct ... but this latest stunt is so blatant that it actually made me physically sick. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 02:46, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@BrownHairedGirl: I've been debating whether to post this since you're clearly quite unhappy and I don't want to add to that, but here goes. I'm not happy about the way NA1000 has handled various matters and yes I do agree that opening the RfC when there was active discussion of what to ask at an RfC is one of the things which isn't good. That's why I supported a topic ban of both of you.
But at the same time, I'm unconvinced that opening this RfC was really that big a deal. The issues you want to ask, don't seem to be greatly affected by this RfC. If the community decides to allow transclusion, it's not going to prevent us deciding to only keep portal where there is an active WikiProject supporting them. It's not even going to stop us deleting crap portals.
And this gets maybe at the heart of why I think your approach, putting aside the civility issues, doesn't seem to be ideal. I appreciate you feel that NorthAmerica1000's changes are often not an improvement. Yet you seem to acknowledge most of the portals they tried to improve were totally crap and seriously outdated before. In my opinion the changes are actually an improvement considering how poor some of the portal were before. (Okay I only looked at 2 or 3.) I'm not saying they aren't also flawed since I agree with you on some of the issues e.g. systemic bias in article selection. But of course wikipedia works by collaboration and even if NorthAmerica1000 makes mistakes, provided they're willing to accept changes by others, that's how things are supposed to work.
More to the point, from what I've seen in some of the recent MfDs one of the issues is some editors feel that they cannot properly assess the portals since what you've done has effectively blocked possible improvements. I haven't see any reason why these changes are really so damaging or harmful that they warrant such strong resistance from you.
Your primary objection seems to be in the way these changes have been carried out. In that way, the RfC, as much as I'm unhappy about how it was opened, may actually be beneficial. You and others will have the opportunity to discuss, hopefully with the involvement of others in the community, one possible (but not mandatory) way of constructing portals. If you have specific concerns about what is being proposed, then hopefully these will be considered and dealt with. Then, in future, NorthAmerica1000 or anyone else will be required to consider the result of this RfC in any changes they make.
This won't deal with your other concerns but it doesn't have to. If NorthAmerica1000 etc are given time to make the changes to portals they feel will improve them enough so that community agrees to keep them, then hopefully the MFDs will be clearer. People will feel, that those who argue the problems can be solved have been given the chance and if they've failed, then this supports the decision to delete. Or maybe their results won't be futile and the community will feel that actually it's okay to keep their portals. I don't consider either outcome bad, and don't think you should either. I do not believe there's a strong mood in the community to keep something just because someone has spent a lot of time on it, so the amount of time they spend on it is IMO not going to be a barrier towards deletions unless it results in improvements sufficient to allay any concerns.
The only risks I see is that 1) because improvements take time, it may slow down the deletion process since people will feel that it's better to give the portals some time for development before deletion. But I do not feel this is a big deal, since I do not see any big problem with those few extra weeks or months. 2) This RfC may reduce the community's appetite on portals for more discussion like that wish you propose since the community is already sick of portals. But frankly the community is IMO getting even more sick of it from these very long and challenging ANIs. Okay people at ANI are not necessarily the same people who will participate in an RfC but still, I'm not convinced that one RfC matters much.
I will add that this whole latest saga on the RfC also adds into my feeling the way you've handled this hasn't helped. As said, I don't see any reason why you needed to wait for Northamerica1000 to construct the RfC, nor that it needed to be unilateral "approve what I've done" thing. You could hopefully have involved others and made a good go at it. If you had done so weeks or even months ago, we may now have an example of the proper way to go about things and could clearly contrast it with what Northamerica1000 did. But we don't have that, all we have is that you asked Northamerica1000 to participate in making an RfC but they ignored you which is a bit better than what Northamerica1000 did, but not much. (I mean it's possible no one would have worked with you in making the RfC. In that case, you could at least demonstrate how you tried and if everyone else really refused to participate, you'd have good justification for unilateral writing an RfC.)
P.S. One of the things that tempers my concern is that IIRC, there were about 50 or so portals that NorthAmerica1000 tried to edit. This is quite a few, but it's IMO not rising to sufficient concern to warrant some sort of immediate reversion. I'd note that while I've mostly stayed out of these portal problems I did IIRC !vote to ban whoever that was that mass created portals last year because that seemed clearly out of control. Also this is only one RfC. If NorthAmerica1000 keeps opening RfCs on different issues while ignoring the RfC you and others are developing, this would also cause great concern.
User:Nil Einne - I usually agree with User:BrownHairedGirl on substantive and technical issues about portals, although I very much wish that she would be civil when she is correct. However, I think that I am less optimistic than User:BrownHairedGirl about the possibility of a useful RFC on portals. I tried publishing an RFC on what I thought would be a straightforward matter, which was ratifying the portal guidelines that were commonly assumed to be in place, for more than a decade. These were frequently cited by portal advocates as saying that portals should be about broad areas. In fact, they said more than that, so that quoting just "broad areas" missed the mark. However, even that proposal, to ratify a long-standing statement, didn't get a consensus. I would like to see a consensus on something about portals, but I am not optimistic, and I don't think that the advocates of portals know why they want portals. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:24, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
you "don't think that the advocates of portals know why they want portals"? it seems obvious to me. there are SOME portals that serve a useful purpose. "they want portals", in that they want portals as a whole to exist. Sm8900 (talk) 14:55, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
oh, just re-read your statement. ok, yes, ratifying existing guidelines shouldn't be that hard. not sure why it didn't go through. can you please provide a link? Sm8900 (talk) 15:01, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:Sm8900 Here should be a link to the RFC that has been downgraded to a failed proposal:
ok, it seems you wanted consensus, and didn't get it. ok, that still doesn't mean thaat supporters of portals "don't know what they want." Sm8900 (talk) 04:14, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Robert McClenon: I actually agree with you it's easily possible there will be no consensus. I've largely glossed over it because BHG seemed to feel that a big part of the problem was that NA1000 did not work on developing an RfC with them. If BHG develops and RfC but there's no useful result, that is unfortunate. But it actually adds to my view there's no reason to get so worked up about it. If the community doesn't share your concerns, even if it's a case of no consensus rather than a consensus against what you want, you have to accept that's how they feel and so things aren't necessarily going to go your way. Sometimes you have to let things be even if you aren't happy with the outcome. To me it seems particularly the case here, since the minimal reader involvement is an added reason why it doesn't matter much. I'm not saying we should allow anything, and if people did turn portals into a place where BLPvios, conspiracy theories, highly POV content etc flourished I would agree with a strong level of concern. But I do feel that the community would feel the same. And from what I've seen this isn't really happening at this time. There may be issues like system bias, very outdated info etc, but not much of this. Nil Einne (talk) 10:01, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. It's possible my views are somewhat influenced by my participation at the reference desks as quite a few also feel they are completely useless and should be closed down. But I do feel sometimes even though you don't like something, you have to take a step back and ask your self whether it's really that big a deal or whether it might be better to just let it be even if you're not happy about it. Nil Einne (talk) 10:08, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Nil Einne: being able to accepting that consensus is sometimes against you is a core attribute which is required to participate effectively on Wikipedia. That has happened to me many thousands of times over the last 13 years. It's how it goes.
But that's a whole different issue to gaming the system create an outcome which doesn't actually reflect the broad consensus. That dents anyone's faith in the whole basis of Wikipedia. I have never seen such sustained gaming of the system as that which NA1K indulges in. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 10:20, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I propose that this be taken to Arbcom on the basis of it being a dispute that the community is clearly unable to resolve.
I further propose that one of you who is into this sort of thing post a draft Arbcom request in your userspace and invite your opponents to comment/edit, with the goal of having an Arbcom request that is endorsed by at least some of the major players. The main request should be a NPOV question; you can lobby for what you want done in your Arbcom comment section. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:37, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Guy Macon, the problem is that ArbCom can't take on the core issue, which is: do portals have a purpose, and if so, what criteria, if any, should govern their creation, maintenance, and deletion. A bit like infoboxes, where the finding was "meh" on whether to have them or not but beatings for everyone who warred over them. Guy (help!) 17:51, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Arbcom was able to help resolve some of the intractable problems re:infoboxes; surely a case is worth considering re:portals. — Diannaa🍁 (talk) 18:01, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. All we are going to get from an RfC is the usual characters having the same argument again (as you can see from the "Support #1" votes above from the Portal supporters). This needs to go to ArbCom who can look at the behaviour of all parties dispassionately. Black Kite (talk)18:10, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your thinking - and perhaps right at the moment isn't best, but once ACE2019 has been resolved, I think the ripeness of it may have turned. — Ched (talk) 19:12, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support on the grounds this thread is way too long; it's becoming hard to reply to. The parties involved need to be separated. I prefer JzG's proposal, but would support Guy M's proposal of having some editor/admin create a draft userspace ArbCom proposal on which we could comment Doug MehusT·C19:52, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support taking to Arbcom. This has degenerated into both sides getting into escalating beligerance, and multiple attempts by the community have failed to resolve it. There's very poor behaviour on both sides that needs to be examined. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:19, 10 November 2019 (UTC) (moved from above. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:15, 10 November 2019 (UTC))[reply]
Oppose Per Guy's argument above, and per there still being reason to think a community solution would work. There's a huge amount of history and context here. Lets not take up the Arbs time & energy on this until we've at least tried a simple iban. FeydHuxtable (talk) 20:48, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support - the monumental list of portal discussions above is somewhat damming - obviously a couple were on the underlying thoughts but a number are about how the dispute has been waged and we've not resolved the problem yet. Pending ARBCOM making superceding temporary injunctions, I do still think that a 2-way IBAN and temporary TBANs for both parties to avoid first-mover advantage from the IBAN. Nosebagbear (talk) 22:00, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support sending to ArbCom, but I will note that an extended discussion of portals that began on 1 March 2019 was closed on 11 April 2019 with no consensus except for the view of many editors that the community was too divided to resolve the matter and that it should be sent to ArbCom. A case request was filed to send the issue to ArbCom, and it was declined. I said at the time that the idea that the community was a few weeks away from resolving the issue was too optimistic. The community did not resolve portal issues within a few weeks or a few months. I still think that this will have to be resolved by ArbCom, because I don't have the faith that ArbCom had in April that the community would be able to resolve the matter. But that is only my opinion. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:27, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support, as I have noted above. I think that we need to be clear, however, that there are two distinct controversies here. One is the establishment of some rules for addressing the status of content in portal space in an orderly manner. The other is the specific behaviors, actions, and accusations that have welled up recently with respect to portals. bd2412T00:47, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support although I think we should give it a few more days and see if the original proposal gain consensus. I imagine a case will take at least that long to develop anyway. If any of the original proposals gain consensus, the editor's primarily involved can consider whether they will need to take this to arbcom or whether to give it another chance with the implementation of the communities decisions. Nil Einne (talk) 02:32, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support Conduct issues make resolving this dispute hard if not impossible. The factionalism makes any community-originated sanctions unlikely. Clearly an intractable dispute that needs a structured discussion to resolve. Wug·a·po·des 02:52, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support taking this to ArbCom. The issues involved have been intractable for many months and the community has been unable to reach a resolution to poor behavior by some or the issue of swarms of clearly worthless portals still in existence that some want kept for unexplainable reasons other then WP:ILIKEIT. Newshunter12 (talk) 03:22, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support as proponent, and because there is evidence of behavioral problems in this area that the community has not been able to resolve. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:01, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support It seems the ongoing issues cannot be resolved at the community level and the community has made concerted efforts to resolve over many months. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 07:54, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Before !voting further, editors should look at the last 20 closed MfDs of portals (Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Archived debates). The standard of analysis is as good, or higher imho, than AfD (and I have plenty of AfD experience). The admins closing these portal MfDs are some of the most experienced/active uninvolved closers in WP and include: Scottywong, JJMC89, Killiondude, Jo-Jo Eumerus, and many many more. Rarely do you ever see these closers criticize the standard/quality of the arguments around portals, and at least, it is evident that a lot of hard work has been done at MfD to clean up the mess – and it is a mess. Just look at the MfD of Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Alaska, where the MfD is a long thread over an abandoned portal that is a link to the Main Article Alaska, and an article on a polar bear, and on a sea-lion, neither of which are relevant/notable enough to Alaska to be in Main Article Alaska; same with lighthouses. While the community has decided not to unilaterally delete all portals, a lot of editors have toiled away for years now, respecting this decision and addressing portals one-by-one in good-quality arguments that in almost all cases, result in a deletion by a wide range of experienced + uninvolved administrators. Some of the comments above (I am not going to name them), I find unworthy to these editors (of which lately, I include myself), who have given their time to this process. Therefore, unless the community is going to change its mind on portals (which I doubt, and ArbCom is not going to intervene on content), this process will continue. I am not going to opine on the BHG/NA1K interactions, which I do find very unpleasant and increasingly unnecessary, however, as I have said to both BHG and NA1K – two of the most productive and valuable editors in WP – if we declared a moratorium on Portal deletions for 5-years, that wouldn't change the fact that the vast majority of them (e.g. +80-90%) are going to collapse of their own accord anyway. Whatever purpose they served 10 years ago, they are now functionally obsolete to Main Article+Navboxes on one side, and WikiProject Directory on the other side. There are many examples of portals where the Main Article is indefinitely protected due to extensive vandalism (e.g. Alaska, Mesopotamia), but the portal requires no protection, as the vandals have given up on it. It would be such a shame to lose one or both of the best contributors in WP over a tool that is already far down the highway of obsolesce, and in almost all cases, will not be coming back. Britishfinance (talk) 13:27, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It means nothing that a group of very adept closing Admins did not comment on unacceptable behavior in their close. Behavior issues are addressed at the proper venues after proper complaints have been made. Authentically, kudos are in order for these closers and their skill.
Regarding arbcom - I've ivoted "support" for Arbocom intervention. I'm going by what I see in this ANI and at a recent MFD. I have to find the link for that MFD again. BHG has engaged in the same personal attacks over, over, and over again - and these are only two discussions, albeit long discussions. I am an uninvolved editor. I have not participated in any RFCs or MFDs related to any portals.
What I am seeing is BHG creating a hostile atmosphere that is anathema to the collegial type editing that Wikipedia strives for. Losing a major contributor, or more than one, is not a sound argument for giving a pass on disruptive behavior. One of the problems is, BHG's attacks overshadow issues they are trying to point out about the behavior of one or more other editors. And, as has been shown, BHG's attacks have occured in other discussions, for which links are provided in the previous section. Also, if there is ongoing factionalism in these Portal RFCs and MFDs, then that needs to be addressed as well. Steve Quinn (talk) 16:10, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is gaslighting. Misconduct by one editor does not justify gross, repeated, shameless misconduct by another editor. It's nothing to do about whether BHG is justified and has everything to do about the sort of hostile environment this creates.--WaltCip (talk) 19:53, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@WaltCip: You do have a point about potential gaslighting, so it might be better to just cite a good example.
I just now learned that there was in fact a fairly broad consensus to eliminate the subpage-based listing of portal content in favor of lead-section transclusions in a community proposal that even BHG herself supported. But even though that partially nullifies the argument that NA1k's implementation of this consensus was "sneaky", potentially unintentional gaslighters (such as myself) still appear to have the argument of NA1k repeatedly failing to justify said proposal as the basis for their actions (hence BHG's reversions were based on misunderstandings she would only just now be aware of) and implementing things clearly outside of the established consensus (such as failing to disclose why they selected the content they added to portals).
In my unbiased conclusion, I believe this is a case where one editor is creating a fait accompli whether it was their intention or not (NA1k), while the other is assuming no clue (BHG). @NA1k: I don't wish to be biased in any way, so would you care to comment on my analysis of your behavior? I'm all ears. @BHG: did NA1k ever cite the consensus here as justification for his actions a month ago? (Feel free to answer this as well, NA1k.) ToThAc (talk) 20:22, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have just read through that discussion for a second time, and I don't see any consensus emerging from it, let alone a formal closure. A lot of ideas were discussed, but I don't see any consensus being reached. I am astonished by the suggestion that I supported there any proposal for how to structure portals; my one comment in that discussion (timestamp 14:32, 29 March 2017) was to support a purge and consolidation. I did not comment on structure.
In the course of other discussions in 2019, I have supported the move towards excerpt transclusion to replace the content-forked subpages which are maintenance failure a vulnerability. I have not endorsed doing so as a "black box" model without any visible, linked list of selected articles. The best model I have seen so far is Portal:Wind power, which displays a list on the face of the page. I am not thrilled with its layout, but the transparency is there to facilitate scrutiny, and improve usability for readers who don't want the excerpts.
But this mining of two year-old discussions seems to me to a big diversion. NA1K set out to do a massive restructuring of dozens of portals. NA1K didn't cite any prior consensus for doing so. NA1K didn't post anywhere to explain their plan. NA1K didn't seek any input on whether their preferred method was actually supported, let alone specifically seek support on it. NA1K didn't notify any WikiProjects or any other stakeholders. This was a unilateral WP:FAITACCOMPLI.
In 2019, NA1K has been a prolific participant in discussions at WT:WPPORT. They commented there on many issues, and started lots of threads, so it is very hard to see any good faith explanation of why they chose not to even notify the project of what was clearly a plan for widespread restructuring, let alone seek consensus that it was a god idea both in principle and in detail. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 21:00, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
edit conflict I've updated several portals before without disclosing or needing to disclose as to why I added specific articles, though I almost always add featured content. There's not enough editors updating these to have a substantive discussion about what to include, and portals have shifted away from being a quasi-magazine to now being more of a navigational structure for quality content. Portals are currently the wild west, there's no style guide for how to improve them, and that's one of the biggest reasons why we're here - apparently any edit NA1k makes can be reverted for going "against consensus" because there is no consensus, but NA1k has made a number of constructive edits and it's tough from me as an outside party to see exactly which rules they've been breaking when no rules really exist in the first place. I've worked constructively with NA1k to bring a couple portals up to speed, including on some of these portals where the changes "weren't discussed" and the edits were constructive. NA1k to justify all their portal edits isn't required anywhere, and the fact we're discussing it at all demonstrates the battleground which we overlook. SportingFlyerT·C21:09, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
edit conflict Why does anyone believe this one editor need anyones ok to edit theses pages? As the editor even posted what was going most of the time as seen here. This has not happened as much to other editors...so why this admin -because someone thinks there an idiot is not a valid reason? --Moxy🍁21:12, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Moxy, you are getting to one of the core issues of portals - there are no regulations/rules around portals (unlike Main Articles which have full PAG). Mass-update of portals to give an artificial illusion of activity and maintainence is not what I think is meant to happen. When BHG has tried to engage with NA1K on a portal-by-portal basis (as only she could do), the mass-update approach breaks down? Beeblebrox's comments about The Portal Rescue Crew on Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Alaska are this very issue. Abandoned, artificially supported portals, give the impression to potential Alaska focused editors, that WP is a failing project. Why do this to ourselves? Britishfinance (talk) 21:58, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Moxy that diff you posted is to NA1K's sandbox. It is utterly bizarre that you seem to think that an edit to a personal sandbox is some sort of notification to other editors. (I don't sniff around other editors sandboxes, and visit them only when asked or when they appear in cleanup categories). Your diff has the opposite impact to what you intended: the fact that NA1K created such a list but apparently chose to post only in their own sandbox looks to me like evidence of an intent to be sneaky about the scale of changes they were making.
As to this has not happened as much to other editors ... that's simply because no other editor has done anything anywhere close to NA1K's mass restructuring of portals. I spotted it a whiff of it one day when I was looking at the relatedChanges to Category:All portals, and then looked at NA1K's portalspace contribs. That was when I noticed the scale of what was happening, and started the examination which led me to begin reverting. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 22:26, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Moxy: its very concerning that you choose to me berate for responding to what you actually wrote, and to falsely accuse me of not reading. The only not reading in this exchange is your failure to read your own words before attacking me.
You posted a link to a sandbox, and that is what I commented on.
Now you say it was also posted at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1020#Portal updates reverted ... but you don't seem to notice that was that thread was posted in response to my reverts (which you definitely should have noticed, because you started the thread[15] about those reverts). So what you have unintentionally achieved is to reinforce my point that NA1K did not advertise their mass takeover of portals while it was underway, and instead advertised it only after the fact.
This is yet another example of why I have said several times in other ways that you are a repeatedly disruptive factor in discussions, because you do not demonstrate remotely effective communication skills. Instead, you start exchanges like this in which you generate a lot of heat and give a strong impression of having little or no regard either for either the facts which you assert or for their significance. The repeated need to counter your streams of false and/or misplaced assertions wastes the time of other editors and drains their patience ... and then you hypocritically complain that the responses which debunk your nonsense are walls of text. I don't believe that you are consciously or intentionally trolling, but conduct like this is a technique used strategically by some clever trolls who so understand how disruptive it is. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 02:35, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support For BHG being held accountable. My proposal below was not allowed on ANI space and it contained why BHG should be desysop. At Arbcom, other experienced users can have a closer look at the reasons. It would also bring a possible resolution to this discussion. AmericanAir88(talk)20:32, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Further comment to my Oppose (above). As I said above, I think the process of portal MfDs will go on; however, unfortunately, I don't think ArbCom is going to add anything useful in that regard. Most of the major portal RfCs were split affairs, and any real consensus, outside of small RfCs which are not really meaningful (often for good reasons), was not forthcoming. RfCs carried out in the heat of this ANI will probably even be more detrimental to the longer-term resolution of the portal mess; untimately, the functional obselence of the vast majority of portals (per above), will see their own rapid deterioration continue at pace. Somebody in 10 years time, will delete most of the portals in WP (but not all), and nobody will probably care.
However, the specific issue of BHG/NA1K interactions are undoubtably very problematical. I understand the basic argument of BHG's first problem with NA1K, in that his mass-updates across many portals is not how portals are meant to work (e.g. meant to have proper topic-interested maintainers/enthusiasts), and NA1K's actions are artificially extending the time-scale of their demise (like TTH did in 2016). While I agree with BHG on her technical point, her language to NA1K is not acceptable and way off base, no question.
However, BHG also accuses NA1K of further behaviour (which she describes as "sneeky" or being a "liar"), around the technical way in which he has attempted mass-updates that mekes them hard for anybody but proficient editors like BHG to undo or spot. I don't understand this argument. If BHG is correct, then it is a different issue, and one could argue that BHG that been driven "off the cliff" (because her language is "off the cliff" in my, and I think most editors view, regardless of their view on portals), by NA1K.
Ultimately, we would either need a targeted ArbCom to look at this issue (either BHG is unacceptably/unfairly bullying NA1K, or NA1K has been doing things that he should not have been doing), OR, we get some uninvolved senior admin who understands the technical detail of portals (but is not a portal enthusiast, understandably), and what NHG is accusing NA1K of (e.g. somone like Scottywong). Anything else will be a mess in my view, and will produce no useful outcome to the project, and a huge loss of editing-power from one or both of the most productive editors on the project. We owe editors like NA1K and BHG more targeted and considered analysis, imho. Britishfinance (talk) 21:14, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, they can, but a case will have more clout if it shown that there is a strong consensus among editors that other methods of resolution have failed. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:02, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Arbcom will not and cannot investigate the underlying issues regarding portals. All Arbcom can do is count how many bad words have been used by each participant and urge the community to hold a discussion. Rather than wringing our hands over the fact that BHG has made certain accusations, an investigation of the issues should occur. Has anyone asked BHG what she is getting at? Has any response been analyzed? Johnuniq (talk) 07:08, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Johnuniq: "Has anyone asked BHG what she is getting at? Has any response been analyzed" Last time this was brought to ANI, less than a month ago, I tried to mediate a discussion on how to move forward at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1020#Talking it out. Specifically asking how they both "think we can move forward from this and de-escalate" and "What is it you both want to see happen?". As you can see from that discussion and this one, it was not a successful strategy. Wug·a·po·des 22:32, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support. BHG has made an almost record number of unsubstantiated personal attacks without any admin doing their job and blocking them (As far as I can see from the above mess, the 'death by section overload' tactic seems to be well in hand here). A normal editor or IP who repeatedly called someone else stupid (and don't think snide references to dunning-kruger make you seem more clever) would have been blocked for significant periods of time by now. Neither has any editor or admin seen fit to enforce WP:NPA which allows anyone to remove personal attacks. So if no one is going to do anything, send it to Arbcom so they can put their official stamp of approval on BHGs bad behaviour. Only in death does duty end (talk) 07:33, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support. User BHG's sustained attacks are unacceptable at this point. Many users have tried to negotiate, but to no avail. It usually ends with user BHG claiming their bullying is WP:Spade and then the insults get extended to the negotiating party until they give up and duck out. Several solutions have been proposed, most along the lines of "let us punish both sides equally", as some kind of ill-fitted compromise. Which of course is ridiculous. You don't punish both bully and victim because you are annoyed by the ruckus. I get it, nobody wants to read the tens of thousands of words that come along with portal discussions. Let ArbCom handle it then. --Hecato (talk) 10:31, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The name-calling, personal attacks and failure to assume good faith have been going on for a very long time without any admin stopping them, so Arbcom is the only resource left to us. I agree with the comments above that this isn't a case of "a plague on both your houses" but a situation where there is a clear bully and a clear victim. On the underlying content issue I would lean towards the position taken by the bully, but that doesn't excuse such behaviour. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:02, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Phil Bridger; Support. If the community is actually able to express some consensus on this, then yes, perhaps ARBCOM can help somewhat. Sm8900 (talk) 21:40, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional support: I just want to be completely clear here: I'm supporting this action only if it questions the general individualized civility of everyone participating in portal deletion discussions (myself included) as was established in this ARBCOM case, though since I wholeheartedly feel that BHG's actions aren't the only root in this conflict, I can't find myself supporting otherwise. ToThAc (talk) 23:12, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed BHG is not the only bad actor in this dispute - there are multiple editors, not all on the same side, who need removing from the topic area for bad behaviour. BHG is simply the worst individual participant. Thryduulf (talk) 01:29, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support sending to arbcom to address the behaviour and conduct of all involved parties. Arbcom will not and should not address the content issue (which is what portals in and of themselves are). Both BHG and NA1K are utterly incapable of interacting civilly with one another to the point where both of them are demonstrating behaviour that will make people question whether they should keep their sysop rights, and an interaction ban in the meantime would also be sensible. Fish+Karate16:35, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
STRONG SUPPORT. (2nd bolded comment by this user.) Sometimes, the real value of an Arbcom case, is simply to get Arbcom involved, so that they can tell everyone, "play nicely," and then intervene after that for notable examples of contentious behavior., in this case, that is a lot of what we need. Sm8900 (talk) 16:46, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support As well as reading (all of) the current discussion I have looked back at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1010#User:Buaidh (as I recall my only portal participation) and I have browsed the discussion leading up to the latter. Even restricting to these situations, I am very concerned about some very poor editor behaviour and it is important something is done. If the community cannot agree on a satisfactory (or any) action to improve things, the matter of editor conduct should be referred to Arbcom. It is important the community or Arbcom takes action on matters of conduct such as have been shown here. Thincat (talk) 19:35, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support because, in addition to what other editors have said, it takes way too long to scroll past this massive wall of text. WMSR (talk) 00:26, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Thryduulf: I have three major reasons. First, the Committee, as you may note, has already declined to accept a case on this very matter back in March; at the time, this was a question of ripeness, but it does cast a shadow on this iteration of the Committee accepting the case anew. Second, well, many of the Committee's decisions this year, for lack of better descriptors, have courted significant controversy: and, believe it or not, I'd rather this case not be taken by the Committee this year. Finally, given how close we are to Arbitration Committee elections, it would be prudent to hold off until the new Committee is seated: fresh eyes, new ideas, and all. Anyway, I hope that satisfies your curiosity. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤)11:29, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Considering that the decisions which generated "significant controversy" concerned some of the most difficult and divisive cases that have ever been faced in the history of the Committee (Fram and Antisemitism in Poland), controversy would have been inevitable no matter which way the cases were closed. Why not just come out and say how you truly feel, which is that you believe the current Committee is incompetent.--WaltCip (talk) 14:10, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support an ArbCom case to examine the conduct of everyone involved. It is definitely true that ArbCom cannot resolve the underlying issue, but part of the reason things have gotten to this point is a broad breakdown of WP:AGF and aggressive WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior on the part of several people involved in the dispute. I think a lot of problems are obvious just by skimming this page, but we need to lay all the accusations and counter-accusations to rest at some point, and at this point the finality of an ArbCom case examining all of them seems like the only way to accomplish that. --Aquillion (talk) 19:08, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Abolish Portals, please (closed)
I am going to cose this one as well, the discussion is stale for 24h, I do not see anything close to consensus to abolish portals, and whoever wants to follow up with other issues, they can be taken to the above sections--Ymblanter (talk) 07:46, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
GoodDay, I like the idea of Portals, so wouldn't support such a proposal. In fact, see above, where I've argued for featuring the portals more prominently on the homepage instead of useless (in my view) FAs and DYKs. ;) Doug MehusT·C19:42, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Agree not the time but also agree they don't work as we though they would....be it because of lack of accessibility due to mobile view limitations or the labour intensity of the old style portals making them outdated. If a few are to stick around I belive Portal:Canada can server as an example of what a portal can provide....being a showcase for featured and vital content while providing a navigation aid (cotents) and introduction to the backside of Wikipedia by way of project introduction - Wikipedia:Portal#Purposes of portals.--Moxy🍁20:01, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with portals is that their very low utility and very low readership means that most of them have been rationally abandoned by the more skilled editors who might have built them into something which adds a little more value. For similar reasons, they have also been abandoned by most active WikiProjects.
As a result, most (tho not all) portals have become the playground of
those who like creating Rube Goldberg machines: vast forests of templates, Lua modules and sub-pages just to display an excerpt which is only marginally better than the excerpts built into the Wikimedia software. Most portals are basically just an absurdly baroque wrapper round a short list of articles which could be displayed in a few lines of [[Article1]] * [[Article2]] etc
very low-competence editors such as Moxy and esp NA1K. NA1K charges around a vast range of topic areas in which they have no demonstrable expertise or skill, making lists without clear criteria which would enable other editors to examine why those articles have been chosen over others. NA!K's competence levels are so abysmally low that they are either unable or unwilling even to acknowledge that there is a serious problem in their choice to crate a list of massive bias even on the broad topic of transport, where they populated the portal with a list where of 50% of the geographically-tied articles relate to their own country.
Even in that extreme case, when NA1K was challenged about it, they failed to do what any honest and competent editor would do: promptly acknowledge that they had screwed up really badly, and that some wholly different approach was needed.
Most of the antagonism over portals derives from their collapse into this status of a playground for the incompetent, who bitterly resent being challenged about the abysmal quality of what they create with their low skills, and are frightened that their playground is shrinking.
Propose immediate block for yet another personal attack by BrownHairedGirl against NA1k and Moxy, just above. I'm too involved in the portal dispute to do it myself, but I can't understand how this harassment and bullying has been tolerated for so long, and BHG now continues to attack and bully other editors in a thread started because she has been bullying and harassing other editors. Is the WMF right and we are a pro-bullying pro-harassment website that can't get its house in order? Even if BHG were right about portals, I can't see any excuse for this anymore. —Kusma (t·c) 20:21, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Moxy, I show great respect to editors who try to work in good faith within their skill zone. Those like you who repeatedly demonstrate bad faith and refuse to recognise your own imitations get less respect from me.
As one example, it's only a few days since you engaged in sustained bullying of me at MFD:Portal:Lighthouses because I refused to accede to your repeated insistence that I should abuse tools such as AWB in pursuit of your desire to circumvent long-stranding aspects of interface design. You were especially outraged that I insisted that I would have no part of that unless there was a clear community consensus to do so.
I do not express respect for an editor engaging in that sort of bullying and contempt for consensus ... and I have no respect at all for your blatant hypocrisy in behaving like that and then calling me all sorts of names . --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 20:51, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Not sure what your linking to when it comes to a personal attack on you at that page. But it is odd that after that talk you changed some inline-portal templates limiting accessibility for 50 percent of our readers. You can see how time and time again many are not convinced your edits related to portals are made with our readers in mind and has lead to numerous complaints about edits and behavior.--Moxy🍁21:36, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Moxy: if you had genuine concerns and wanted to know why, you could simply have come to my talk page and asked why I changed some inline-portal templates. But sine you chose to make a drama of it here, this is the answer.
My AWB setup for updating portal links after deletions does not change the portal template in use. In most cases, this works fine, but in cases where {{portal-inline}} has been used there is a problem when one portal links is replaced with two, because {{portal-inline}} takes only one portal as parameter. I usually let my AWB job do the replacement, and then cleanup the errors.
After the deletion of Portal:Indian classical music, its links needed to be replaced with links to Portal:India and Portal:Music. I used a different methodology, and manually handled those cases of {{portal-inline}}. AFAICR, I used a variety of approaches depending on context, and in some of those cases, such as [16], I used other portal templates which take more than one parameter. It depended on what seemed to be the neatest and easiest solution. In that case {{Portal bar}} seemed both easiest and neatest.
Even a moron like me would have simply used a second inline template to not hide the portal to 50 percent of our readers. Again think what is best for our readers.--Moxy🍁21:17, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Moxy, that would be your choice. I chose not increase vertical bulk, and instead to reduce it by displaying the portal links prominently in a {{Portal bar}} in (AFAICR) about 5 or 10 cases.
You have a particular personal obsession with using only {{Portal-inline}}, for reasons which you believe are important. I weighed the benefits differently. As I noted above, if you want the community to deprecate any portal template such as {{Portal bar}}, then open a TFD and seek consensus for your view. But, unless and until there is consensus to do so, {{portal bar}} remains a valid alternative, used on 74337 pages. So back off your bullying. This is just a continuation of your personal attacks on me on at MFD:Portal:Lighthouses, where you demanded that I use AWB to make changes to implement your personal preference. WP:RFC is thataway. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 21:59, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This could be what the main problem is (understanding of others intent) ...was no demand nor any attack on you at that page...as for portalbar ..that is a good choice and is one of the temples we got fixed to work in mobile view. But that was not what my example was.--Moxy🍁00:29, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
BrownHairedGirl, if you truly believe that NA1k and Mo on you to do anythinxy. perhaps its a cominication are too incompetent to edit here, you should either start attempts to ban them (I guess you know where to find the ArbCom), or you should rejoice that they spend so much time on niche low-viewership things like portals instead of in places where they could do more serious damage. It is quite difficult to disrupt the encyclopaedia using portals (again, pageviews and number of editors involved are not huge), but you have succeeded many times to blow the issue up to epic proportions by focusing on contributors instead of content. Bullying is bad and the ends do not justify the means. —Kusma (t·c) 21:06, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Kusma: I recoil at the bureaucracy of an ArbCom case. Months of diff-farming does my head in. After The Troubles case ~12 years ago, I vowed never again if I could avoid it. And my experience of ANI is that is good at simple, immediate issues, but very poor at handling cases involving prolonged issues with several people, esp if the miscreants have a vocal fan club. (Part of the flaw is structural: non-admins get equal voice in the decision-making, so its not really an admin board).
So I hoped that progress could still be made without bans, by enough outside editors getting involved to outweigh the vocal-but-incompetents. Most of the time this has worked well, but every now and then it all flares up, as it has just done over transport, or as Moxy tried to do with P:Lighthouses.
If you actually look across the range of MFDs, you can see that I have tried v hard to focus on content. I spend a lot of time researching and writing detailed researched, rationales (to the portal crew has denounced me for that: it's "intimidation", they said, because they prefer ilikeit debates).
The problems arise when the likes of NA1K arrive and post nonsense. Moxy mostly just posts garbled hot air, but NA1K specialisses in truthiness: well-written nonsense which is structured like reason, but littered with non-sequiturs and falsehoods and half-truth. A debate/discusison format is ill-equipped to deal with sustained half-truths like that, so things can kick off as NA1K responds with verbose scattergun nonsnense. You can see an example of it further up this page, where NA1K accused me of doing "exactly the same thing" as they dis, even tho I had done the exact opposite. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 22:36, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Editors who lack the skills to contribute effectively in a given area are expected to have the self-awareness to recognise their limitations and find other way of contributing. Failure to do so is disruptive.
Massive disruption has been caused, and is being caused on an ongoing basis, by the failure of those editors to work within the limits of their own competence.
There is now a persistent problem that those who challenge this disruption caused by this incompetence are accused of all sorts of wickdeness for pointing to the emperor's nakedness.
BrownHairedGirl, That's true...I do agree with this, "Massive disruption has been caused, and is being caused on an ongoing basis, by the failure of those editors to work within the limits of their own competence." I try and limit my editing to Canadian politics, corporations, and North American radio and television stations. I wonder if part of the problem may be the country-specific WikiProjects whereby editor-members are editing, on a mass scale, on topics which they have little knowledge but are colocated based on their being in the same country? Perhaps we need a re-think of WikiProjects such that we eliminate country- and geographic-specific WikiProjects? Doug MehusT·C20:58, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's not just country-specific portals that are the problem—it's just that you're seeing those because they're the ones that are potentially viable and have consequently survived deletion. TTH's portal-creation script was based on search terms and was very scattergun, and we ended up with things like Jannie de Beer in Portal:Alcoholic drinks. (I have no idea if that was a real example or not—that's just one I made up to illustrate the issue—but anyone who was there can confirm that I'm not being unfair.) ‑ Iridescent21:14, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Iridescent, True, and I don't disagree with you. I didn't realize editors were creating portals via script. I assumed most were created manually. Excuse my Pollyanna syndrome. What I meant was the WikiProjects (not Portals) contributing to the perceived, if not real, problem of editors editing beyond their topical competence. The Canada Portal is a good example of a portal (but so was the now-deleted Star Trek one). The real problem, I think, is the country WikiProjects (i.e., WikiProject Canada; WikiProject United States of America, etc.). Doug MehusT·C21:21, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Dmehus, the main problem with country WikiProjects is that they tend to be too large to have much coherence. I don't quite see how WikiProjects cause people to edit outside of their competence. Most people tend to edit topics they are interested in, and from my own experience trying to cheerlead the Germany project I can tell you it is rather hard to find people who will help with some "important" topic that they don't enjoy editing. YMMV of course. Anyway, this is off-topic and might be better at the idea lab. —Kusma (t·c) 21:34, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In 2018, a script was used to assist in creating portals, all or almost all of which have been deleted. The script has been blanked and the templates which it used have been deleted. Certes (talk) 21:44, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Thanks, Dmehus. I try to limit my editing in similar ways. My topics are politics and modern history in Ireland and the UK.
However, this has almost nothing to do with WikiProjects, which have largely abandoned portals. Most Wikiprojects as less tha active, but insofar as they are still functioning, WikiProjects do prvide a forum for steering editors away from damage.
This is about portals, where NA1K in particular has charged in and rebuilt many dozens of portals on a vast range of topics. At one stage they had even listed themself as the "maintainer" of over 42 portals, including Ghana, Free software, Guatemala, Biochemistry, Money, Djiboti, Tanks, Moldova. After repeated criticism, they removed themself as maintainer, but went on to sneakily rebuild dozens more portals on topics where they have with no demonstrable expertise. Every one of those which I have examined in detail was very poor quality work.
This is the Dunning–Kruger effect on steroids. NA1K has some bizarre delusion that the have some magic skill which gives them expertise in all these diverse topics, and doesn't learn to change course when the evidence is set out that they have screwed up yet again. Part of the reason this continues is the portal fan club, in which low-skill editors are dominant. None of them as severely deluded as NA1K, but they cheer on NA1K against what they say are the bad nasty people who "bully" NA1K by challenging the failings. So NA1K continues in a bubble. It's a dystopian group version of Randy in Boise, with lots of Randys. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 21:41, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As one of the low-skilled editors who continue to cheer portals, this was probably my favourite diff from the recent discussion on Portal talk:Australia. And I love the argument you need "expertise" in a topic to improve a portal, or, indeed, anything on the encyclopaedia. With some simple researching skills, I've added citations to many topics I've never heard of before, and portals should be even easier to update if there's an associated WikiProject. Requiring "expertise" has never been a rule anywhere on Wikipedia, and is just another example of how BHG continually moves the goalposts on portal-related discussions to ensure no progress ever happens. SportingFlyerT·C10:54, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So far as I could see then, and so far as I can see now, SF was the only Australian editor still participating in those discussions. The others were portal regulars. So I asked for notification to WP:WikiProject Australia, because This talk page is dominated by editors without connection to Australia, rather than by those with demonstrable expertise in the topic.
I note SF's derision at the notion that anyone needs any expertise in a topic to select a list of significant articles in that field. It's a very disappointing attitude, which I have never seen outside portal-space. Sure, anyone can research a particular point of detail, but selecting a representative set to give an overview clearly does require prior knowledge. Why on earth not ask?
I also note SF's claim that asking for notifications is moving the goalposts. On the contrary, a courtesy notification to parties who work on the relevant issues is common good practice across Wikipedia. SF's indignation only reinforces my point that portalspace has normalised poor practice. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 04:00, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry you find my attitude disappointing. It's not at all difficult to become competent in a topic, I'd say it's even a requirement to be able to WP:HEY an article at AfD (which is not at all difficult.) Also, it's not as if I'm looking at NA1k's contributions to the Australian portal and going "tut, tut, if only they were an Aussie they would have picked better content to feature." Requiring only Australians to edit the Australia portal makes no sense at all, especially given none of the articles added were close to being controversial. Furthermore, how is it not moving the goalposts? There's not a single rule anywhere on Wikipedia which requires competency before someone can edit an article, and especially not from good-faith editors. SportingFlyerT·C04:28, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@SportingFlyer, please do re-read what I wrote,[17] and take care not misrepresent me. My comment there is only two sentences long, so it shouldn't be confusing.
I did not suggest requiring only Australians to edit the Australia portal.
I did ask that Australian editors be notified. This was to give them opportunity to comment if they wanted to.
We've been to the PUMP about this, multiple times and recently. It's completely ineffective for this, because the people who want to keep Portals refuse to even consider changing process at all. Instead, any attempt to even propose guidelines for portals is met with accusations of "backdoor deletionism" and the whole thing grinds down to No Consensus. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite16:19, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well in my humble opinion, well constructed portals are doing their jobs by getting the views. If proposals are made they have to be careful to not lump all portals into the same category. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:49, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see a lack of willingness to change, but an overly narrow focus by both those who support portals and those who do not. There has been very little attempt to engage editors interested in the various candidate topic areas. Without support from the editors interested in a given topic, there is no chance of long-term viability for a portal on that topic. (I get why it's scary to engage: the vast majority of areas have shown no interest in portals. But there's no point in creating a portal in an area that you're not actively interested in supporting and pushing it onto a group of editors who aren't interested in the portal.) On the other hand, portal detractors seem to think it's necessary to bring up their points repeatedly because they're not being heard. But brainstorming ideas is a messy business, and people are going to discuss avenues even if you think they're going down unproductive paths based on faulty evidence. People can be wrong in discussions, and that's OK: they need the freedom to slip up to allow new ideas to bubble to the surface. isaacl (talk) 18:36, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - BHG, there is NO excuse for the continued name-calling. I don't care if the other editor is Hitler reincarnated. Stop the personal attacks. Now. This shouldn't even be up for debate. It's one of the five pillars. Be civil or leave. 50.35.82.234 (talk) 06:41, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I am not an admin and I know I do not have much say, but I am initiating this proposal. User:Toa Nidhiki05 said that other options need to be explored and I believe this to be a possible option to end the dispute. I propose we desysop BrownHairedGirl for the reasons below. No blocking or topic banning needed, just one proposal. I want to be as polite as possible. BHG, it is not personal and I do not want to argue, this is just a proposal based on previous evidence. AmericanAir88(talk)18:53, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Reasons for Desysop of BrownHairedGirl
1. Harassment. Plenty of evidence is prominent through diffs and this discussion. Targets other users. This violates WP:ADMINCOND and is against Wikipedia policy through the pilars.
2. Violation of WP:ADMINACCT. BHG does not reason properly as she erupts into poor judgement and accusations. She breaches multiple policies
3. Reverting and edit warring. Violation of WP:TOOLMISUSE by reverting other admin's edits. She reverts other users edits without consensus and does not consider WP:ALTREV and WP:ROWN.
4. Not a role model for non-admins. Administrators are meant to be examples of Wikipedias who excel in the pilars and understand all policies. They are meant to cooperate and help build an encyclopedia. BHG being able to commit activities I mention above is not what an Admin stands for or what ANY Wikipedian should be doing.
I am aware that no discussion of AA88's proposal can take place here, but I think that it is only fair to be allowed to make a one-off response to the allegations made by AmericanAir88. I have followed the same numbering scheme:
WP:Harassment is specifically restricted to "intentionally target a specific person or persons". That has not happened. Where NA1K's actions have fallen within my normal field of work, and I have seen problems, I have been outspoken about them, especially when they have been repeated. That reactive criticism is not targeting.
WP:ADMINACCT says "Administrators are accountable for their actions involving administrator tools". This is the first allegation I have seen anywhere in these discussions which even suggests that I have failed to account for my use admin tools. No evidence of of any example is provided. So far as as I can recall, my only use of admin tools in relation to portals has been in deleting subpages after the closure of an MFD.
The claim that BHG does not reason properly is perverse. I have repeatedly posted lengthy reasoned arguments, especially when I have been critical of other editors.
I stand by my judgements. A generalised accusation like that needs example of of poor judgement, but AA88 has provided none.
Reversion does not require consensus. It is part of the WP:BRD cycle. I have done a second revert only in cases where the contested edit has been restored while discusion is ongoing.
The 4th para by AA88 is just generalised assertions, without specifics. It is simply an example of the logical fallacy of proof by assertion. The closest thing I can see to a specific is the generalised allegation that I do not co-operate. That is counter-factual: most of the criticism heaped on me is because of my support for oral deletions, in support of which i have opened about 500 consensus-forming discussions. I regard to the questions of portal structure and content which led me to revert NA!K's edit, I have in the last month repeatedly asked NA1K to work with me to design neutrally-worded RFCs to resolve those issues, but NA1K has not taken up that offer. It is perverse to accuse me of non-co-operation when I have repeatedly sought that co-operation.
As an admin, you have access to the block buttons. Suppose you were attempting to mediate a dispute in which one editor repeatedly attacked the intelligence of the other editor. At what point would you consider issuing a civility block? Lepricavark (talk) 21:43, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Useless proposal, bound to waste a lot of time and create more division and hostility. Wish Floquenbeam hadn't reverted his own closing of this thread. ---Sluzzelintalk21:49, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Aidayoung inserting fringe/promotion, removing sourced content despite warnings, potential COI
Massimo Introvigne is an Italian attorney and member of a New Religious movement called Alleanza Cattolica. In 1988, Introvigne created an organization called CESNUR to lobby for the legitimacy of New Religious Movements such as Scientology.
Aidayoung (talk·contribs) has inserted and re-inserted Introvigne's material while repeatedly deleting well-sourced material critical of Introvigne. Aidayoung has used misleading edit summaries, has misrepresented a source, and their total editing history suggests an Introvigne-related conflict of interest. Recent examples of problem behavior:
Content removed by User:Drmies: "there is no good reason to take "Introvigne 2018a" seriously" & "FRINGE stuff needs to be supported by reliable, independent sources"
Additionally, User:Aidayoung may have a conflict of interest. Second and third articles edited were Massimo Introvigne and CESNUR. History shows widespread promotion of Introvigne's material across multiple articles. First denial of being Introvigne occurred in 2017. COI concerns again resurfaced in 2019:
"you included, show very strong ties between Massimo Introvigne, CESNUR and Oleg Maltsev, and between certain editors here, you included, and those three. As for you, you created the article about Oleg Maltsev, and have continued to maintain it, including through adding ever more badly sourced promotional material, and reverting attempts to clean it up, and even though you didn't create the articles about CESNUR and Introvigne, you made the first edits on those articles in 2007, and are still active on them (on multiple language versions of Wikipedia), including by removing material you see as criticising the subjects of the articles; the majority of your other edits here also appear to be on articles with a connection to Introvigne and CESNUR, most recently plugging CESNUR's "Bitter Winter" on multiple language versions of Wikipedia. Making it look as if you work for Introvigne/CESNUR."(per Thomas.W)
Feoffer should answer substantive questions raised in the CESNUR talk page eg did CESNUR defend the Solar Temple or New Acropolis, was Mr Lewis ever associated with CESNUR rather than shooting the messenger. I am obviously a scholar of new religions and for all of us CESNUR is an obvious main reference - the rest is innuendo. Aidayoung (talk) 14:16, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There are strong connections between the report above and this previous discussion here on WP:ANI, the long discussion about sources on Talk:Oleg Maltsev (psychologist) (which clearly shows that Aidayoung either doesn't understand sourcing at all, in spite of having edited here since 2007, or is deliberately trying to mislead...) and multiple discussions on User talk:Aidayoung. - Tom | Thomas.W talk16:43, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As I said elsewhere, something is going on here, but I don't know what. After months of inactivity, Aidayoung started editing Talk:Eric Roux minutes after notability issues were raised. I asked how they found this article, but never got a response. This editor seems to think that being "obviously a scholar", or having edited "hundreds" of articles on new religious movements, is relevant to improving articles... but any questions about this, or attempt to discuss COI or SOCK, are deflected as "innuendo" or "baseless accusations".
It's reasonable for this editor to be concerned with privacy issues here, but they are still accountable for their actions. This behavior cannot be dismissed as a coincidence. This editor is a SPA who has no qualms about calling CESNUR-affiliated academics "luminaries" and similar, or padding-out CESNUR, Bitter Winter, and related with tedious editorializing, promotional minutia, and peacock words. This version of Bitter Winter seems like a good example. Grayfell (talk) 03:43, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t know how one can prove a negative: how can I prove I am NOT one of the CESNUR’s directors? But this discussion is welcome as administrators should solve issues like this, and perhaps even convert “enemies” into friends or at least favor a honest dialogue. Let me be a little bit more analytical.
1. Oleg Maltsev. I wouldn’t start a war of religion about this (Oleg Maltsev’s Applied Science Association is just one among dozens of new religious movements I took an interest on, and a minor one) but I would like an administrator to look at the initial article I wrote and the article as it is now and decide which is more understandable. It is not that Maltsev is not controversial. He is. I included a part on the controversies. Now all the discussion on the controversies is in the lead. It reads: “Exponents of the anti-cult movement in Russia and Ukraine have criticized his association as a cult.[3][4][5][6]”. There is a problem here with references 3, 4, 5, and 6. None refers to Maltsev or his organization. They have been copied and pasted from the article on CESNUR and refer to controversies which happened years before Maltsev even founded his movement. These references are simply wrong as they have nothing to do with Maltsev. Also, why Maltsev is accused of being a “cult leader” is now unclear, since all the parts about its idiosyncratic, controversial theories on religion have been eliminated, with the argument that sources were not authoritative enough. This may well be, but as a result I find the article difficult to understand and not explaining to the readers why, exactly, Maltsev is accused of operating a cult. As I mentioned, I do not have strong feelings about this particular article (even if nobody likes having her work simply cancelled) and look forward to the administrators’ assessment with interest.
2. Bitter Winter. If one looks at my editing and entries I created, it appears as obvious that I am interested in religion in Eastern Asia (much more than CESNUR, which deals mostly with Western groups) I would invite the administrators to google ”Bitter Winter” and see how, despite having been founded in 2018 only, it is used as a source by many mainline media. For scholars of religious liberty issues, the most important document published yearly is the annual report of the U.S. State Department. I would respectfully suggest that administrators download the 2019 chapter on China at [18]. They will notice that Bitter Winter is the most quoted publication in the chapter on China of the report. It is mentioned 15 times. A distant second, The New York Times is quoted 7 times. If Bitter Winter is a source authoritative enough for the US State Department, perhaps it deserves entries in Wikipedia, in the different languages in which it is published. I am aware that some regard it as pro-US and anti-China and in fact I had indicated it in my original entry. IMHO the problem is not whether one agrees or disagrees with Bitter Winter, it is whether it is well-known enough to be encyclopedic.
3. Entry on CESNUR.
a. Gallagher. He wrote the introduction to an edited book where Introvigne contributed a chapter. Usually in these introductions the general editor does not only summarize the chapters but adds his or her own opinions. Maybe I should have clarified this but calling my reference to Gallagher fraudulent is grossly exaggerated.
b. The same people who regard a peer-reviewed journal like The Journal of CESNUR [19] (possibile objection: the Journal is not Elsevier-indexed; answer: the lengthy indexing process only starts two year after a Journal has started being published, and The Journal of CESNUR was launched at the end of 2019), under the responsibility of a board including some of the most well-know names in the field of the study of new religions [20] - yes, Eileen Barker and Gordon Melton are “luminaries” in the study of religious movements and Antoine Faivre is a “luminary” in the study of esotericism, which does not mean that everybody agrees with them - as a source to be deleted from Wikipedia, the go on and quote liberally articles published in 1997 and 1998 (more than twenty years ago) by the French Communist newspaper L’Humanité and the Dutch left-wing newspaper De Groene Amsterdamer in the middle of a heated political controversy about cults, as if they were the Gospel. They become key references in the article. In the CESNUR article, the article by L’Humanité is quoted twice, including in the lead. Accusing CESNUR of defending the Order of the Solar Temple, a criminal group, is a very serious accusation. In the current version, we read that CESNUR scholars have “defended... the Order of the Solar Temple (responsible for 74 deaths in mass murder-suicide),[1][2][3][4]“. CESNUR was accused of having “defended” the Order of the Solar Temple is the articles in L’Humanité and De Groene Amsterdammer. The third article, by the Swiss Broadcasting Corporation, does not mention CESNUR at all. As far asI know, the fact that an accusation has been published in a newspaper, the more so a marginal one, is not enough to accept its as a source in Wikipedia. Neither L’Humanité nor De Groene Amsterdamer offered anything as evidence for this very serious accusation. The only main article on the Solar Temple I could find published by CESNUR scholars, in a book edited by Cambridge University Press [21], does not “defend” the Solar Temple in any way and indeed deprecates its criminal activities. In the talk page, Feoffer added a quote from “Trouw”, an Evangelical Dutch magazine which intervened in the 1997 Amsterdam conference controversy (see below) to the effect that “After the second wave of suicide by members of the Solar Temple, in Cheiry, Switzerland, in 1995, Introvigne declared that they had acted on their own initiative.” Apart from the factual mistake, as the second wave of suicides occurred in France and not in Switzerland, if one reads the Cambridge UP article by Introvigne and Mayer one understands what “acted on their own initiative” means. Introvigne and Mayer dismissed the conspiracy theories that the suicides were really homicides organized by French or other secret services. Stating that the suicides came from the “own initiative” of those who committed suicide rather than from some obscure conspiracy is not a “defense” of the Solar Temple.
c. The Groene Amsterdamer and Trouw are the only sources arguing that CESNUR “defended” New Acropolis. Indeed, De Groene Amsterdamer published its article before the CESNUR conference on 1997 in Amsterdam and discovered (to its credit) that one communication, on New Acropolis, indicated in the program would have been presented by a lady who, although having a Ph.D., was also a member of New Acropolis. An Evangelical Dutch magazine, Trouw, is also mentioned. New Acropolis is fiercely anti-Christian and Trouw was obviously happy to pick up a fight with New Acropolis and, by implication, CESNUR, When Trouw however wrote (criticizing CESNUR for the incident), it also duly noted that the participation of this lady to the conference has been “cancelled” once her affiliation was revealed. De Groene Amsterdamer also mentioned a study of ex-members of New Acropolis by CESNUR director Massimo Introvigne later published by Nova Religio. For those subscribing to JSTor the article is available at [22]. Apart from having passed the peer review of a very respected journal, the article represented different attitudes of ex-members of New Acropolis through a survey, which is different from “defending” New Acropolis. My frank impression is that dropping in the lead the names of movements accused of serious crimes is simply a way to slander.
It is also the case that, as detailed in its Web site, CESNUR has organized more than thirty yearly conferences with more than 3,000 communications. IMHO, it may be interesting to mention the controversy about one single lecture, which was announced but not presented, but the emphasis on this incident is undue.
d. The Aum Shinrikyo incident. I agree it is embarrassing for the scholars involved. But I wonder whether it belongs to an entry on CESNUR, as CESNUR was not involved and the incident was mentioned in passing in a speech by Introvigne at a CESNUR conference (presented as a speech “on” the report while it just “mentions” the report: [23]. Even in its present version, the CESNUR Wikipedia entry gives the impression that in the speech Introvigne defended the report, and accepted the thesis that Aum was innocent. This is false. Here is what Introvigne said: “ A case in point is the much maligned field trip to Japan in April 1995 by a team of American experts to investigate Aum Shinrikyo after the gas attack of 20 March 1995. Their plane tickets and hotel accommodations were paid for by Aum Shinrikyo, although they received no honoraria. One scholar initially concluded that Aum Shinrikyo was being framed. Most of its leaders, he suggested, had no responsibility in the gas attack and the other crimes of which they were accused[12]. The other scholar soon prepared a paper (read in absentia at the yearly conference of CESNUR held at the University of Rome on 10-12 May 1995), in which he suggested that Aum's top leaders were not only guilty of the gas attack, but probably also part of a much larger criminal scheme, involving dealing in drugs and consorting with local organized crime. Both scholars concurred in denouncing human rights violations against hundreds of members of Aum who, unlike the leaders, were certainly neither guilty nor aware of any criminal activity. Otherwise, however, their analyses were quite different. Often cited by anti-cultists in the European debate as the ultimate evidence that scholars are hired guns for the cults, this Japanese experience proves in fact quite the opposite. The fact that two scholars, both with return tickets to Japan paid for by Aum, reached opposite conclusions on Aum's involvement in terrorist and criminal activities is strong evidence that funding from the movements may influence but does not necessarily control the results of research.”
I believe we finally agree that Professor Lewis was never a member of CESNUR.
In the talk page I was not the only one questioning whether this discussion belongs in an article about CESNUR. The trip was not sponsored by CESNUR. One CESNUR board member, J. Gordon Melton, did participate in the trip but not on behalf of CESNUR. Reader’s critical article quoted does not mention CESNUR at all. These incidents belong to the entries on Melton and Lewis rather than CESNUR.
4. Entry on Massimo Introvigne. I do not want to waste the administrator’s time but here again it is difficult not to see a consistent effort to downplay the positive sources (be they The New York Times) and emphasize obscure sources if they are negative.
5. Eric Roux. I know Eric Roux is a Scientologist but his book on Scientology is reasonably good and has had positive independent reviews. I expressed the opinion that he is noteworthy enough to have a Wikipedia entry.
6. As some critics of the so-called “pro-cult” attitude of (most) scholars of new religious movements see any positive references to CESNUR, Gordon Melton, Eileen Barker, Massimo Introvigne or even Bitter Winter as propaganda, those with a different opinion may see their systematic use of obscure sources to denigrate the same scholars and organizations as counter-propaganda. Here is precisely where administrators may come in and restore some balance.
7. I have multiple interests in life and do not edit every day nor even every month. I did not know this was a crime. I edit mostly on religion, particularly Asian. The claim that I only edit articles connected with Massimo Introvigne and CESNUR may be easily disproved by reading at my editing history, although in recent weeks I had to spend time in contesting what I see as a malicious campaign to present some serious scholars and organizations as if they were a bunch of criminals.
^Cite error: The named reference kwaad was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
Can't speak to the Maltsev or Roux issues, but Aidayoung's arguments on CESNUR boil down to the claim that the reliable sources are just plain wrong and shouldn't be saying what they're saying.
I can, however, rebut Aida's final point about having generic interest in Asian religion. Nearly all of Aidayoung's edits are to articles linked to Introvigne or his publications. While a quick glance at their editing history might initially suggest a general interest in Asian religion, if you look closely, you'll find that the attorney-turned-lobbyist Introvigne is almost invariably mentioned in the articles, if not in the text then in the citations.
This pattern of promotion holds over a period of twelve years, and tracks with Introvigne's own relatively-recent focus on Asia beginning in the mid-to-late '10s. Aidayoung's edits to Asian religions similarly only begin in 2017, a full decade after Aida's first edits to Introvigne/CESNUR. This strongly suggests Aidayoung's campaign of promotion is not independent of Introvigne. Feoffer (talk) 15:09, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion on Talk:Oleg Maltsev (psychologist) that I mentioned in my post above was also all about Massimo Introvigne, and a pure promo-piece about his friend Oleg Maltsev, sourced only to Maltsev himself, that was used as source for just about everything in that article, and that Aidayoung stubbornly insisted on re-adding, claiming that it was a reliable source since it was written by a professor and published on what she claimed is "a peer-reviewed encyclopaedia published by a reputable university", but in reality is none of that, since it's a project started by an individual at that university, and not peer-reviewed at all. - Tom | Thomas.W talk16:34, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
comment I share several of the WP:COI concerns voiced above. @Aidayoung:Bitter Winteris a CESNUR publication and your edits are clearly all related to that group in one way or another. It's not against the rules to have a narrow topic interest, but this is a niche academic discipline and your edits are overwhelmingly dedicated to promoting it. Even if you have no professional conflict of interest, your behavior is mostly indistinguishable from that of a WP:COI editor and it needs to be addressed.
Some of this may be solved by having a centralized discussion about the reliability of CESNUR at WP:RSN. If editors agree (and I suspect they will) that CESNUR is a poor source for establishing notability and a weak source for facts, then it should be much more straightfoward to address the content issues being discussed here. Nblundtalk23:05, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Aidayoung has asked us to look at their contributions, so I did. Looking at Commons:Special:Contributions/Aidayoung, Aidayoung has has first-hand familiarity with these people and subjects, as they have uploaded several "own work" photos used over the years. As with most of their edits, these photos are used for articles which have disproportionately cited Introvigne.
As just one example, about a third of the footnotes for Victory Altar (which was created in November 2017) cite this article by Introvigne. The photos uploaded by Aidayoung are the exact same photos used by Introvigne in the source, which was posted a few days before the Wikipedia article was created. By uploading these photos, Aidayoung is saying that they own the copyright to photos which had previously been used by Introvigne.
Weixinism shows the same pattern of image use, and Bnei Baruch and Oleg Maltsev (psychologist) were both similarly lopsided in how they cited sources. This behavior strongly suggests that, at minimum, Aidayoung has been working very closely with Introvigne on multiple projects. If not, they should explain this discrepancy, briefly, for WP:COPYVIO reasons, if nothing else. Grayfell (talk) 02:12, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
an undated interview, Introvigne writes (via google translate, original Italian in link):
"The Wikipedia pages in English "Massimo Introvigne" and "CESNUR" have been attacked by autonomous users and pseudonyms that Wikipedia administrators have readily identified and banned. Unfortunately they did the same with the "Massimo Introvigne" page in Russian and there it seems that the administrators are less ready to react. The interventions on Wikipedia leave traces and it is therefore possible to know that at least some of these that in wikipedian jargon are called acts of vandalism started from computers of people and locations linked to the Russian anti-cult movement and in particular to Alexander Dvorkin, who is deputy - President of the European anti-cult coordination organization FECRIS and for about twenty years has been conducting a campaign of insults against CESNUR and myself ... not very effective, since we are still here and indeed we are certainly more active than twenty years ago.
This demonstrates conclusively that Introvigne does have a _very_ active familiarity with very same two articles that Aidayoung has actively edited, beginning 12 years ago. Introvigne's comments above seem to precisely mirror Aidayoung's comments about allegedly-Russian vandalism of Introvigne and CESNUR articles. Based on this last diff, for the first time it is reasonable to believe we actually may be dealing with Introvigne himself, rather than just someone in his sprawling network with a COI.
What's even more conclusive, however, is Grayfell's above observation that Aidayoung uploaded (as OWN WORK) photos previously published by Introvigne. Feoffer (talk) 08:08, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I note that most of those who have commented here have also edited in an “anti-cult” sense previous entries. Nothing wrong about it but they have their own agenda. The point is that academic literature on new religious movements in general very often cites Introvigne and CESNUR. it would be very bad editing to write about new religious movements and ignore articles and books written by Introvigne or other CESNUR authors only because some here happens not to like them. On pictures, these are simply pictures provided by new religious movements to those who ask to illustrate sympathetic studies of them. Some of mine have been canceled for copyright issues and I have presented others as my own with the consent of the religious movements concerned to make the copyright approval process simpler. Administrators should simply look at CESNUR Web pages including encyclopedia at CESNUR.com, journal at CESNUR.net and Website at CESNUR.org, plus programs of its conferences to decide whether or not it is a well-known organization and authoritative source in the field of new religious movements, and at the WRSP encyclopedia at https://wrldrels.org/ to decide whether it is a fringe project by a lonely professor or a cooperative enterprise involving hundreds of respected scholars. I note that substantive questions about the editing on the contested entries have not been answered, despite offers to engage in a dialogue considering all aspects of the issues. I believe it is a fair conclusion that the study of new religious movements in the academia sees a conflict between a majority sympathetic to these movements and a minority hostile to them and that in the (pro-NRMs) majority texts by Introvigne, CESNUR, Bromley, Melton, etc. are regarded as authoritative. We are talking of authors published by Brill, Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press, University of California Press (editor of Nova Religio), not of newspapers published by the French Communist Party or one of the Dutch Green parties, whose anti-CESNUR diatribes of 20 years ago are obsessively referenced by some editors here... Aidayoung (talk) 15:28, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(Non-administrator comment) I just want to make sure that "I have presented others as my own with the consent of the religious movements concerned to make the copyright approval process simpler" is not overlooked, that we move to delete all uploads that this person has falsely branded as their own work in order to evade our licensing requirements. --Nat Gertler (talk) 15:45, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have started a deletion discussion at Commons, here: Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Files of user:Aidayoung (2). Looking through those images to start that discussion, I noticed that they are either glossy and professional-looking images which have almost certainly been provided for publicity purposes, or are snapshots taken on an iPhone 6. It's certainly a popular phone choice, but this is also another potential indicator that these were taken by the same person. Additionally, one of the uploads is File:Italian iPhone 2779.jpg, which was taken in Taiwan, not Italy. I don't know why any image of a person would be named that, but regardless, it's another point against this being a coincidence. Grayfell (talk) 00:27, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest I don't think Aidayoung is Introvigne, for a number of reasons, just someone working for Introvigne/CESNUR, and travelling with Introvigne. - Tom | Thomas.W talk03:17, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Aidayoung: Let me start by once again pointing out that I have never edited any "cult articles", and had also never edited any other article even remotely related to CESNUR before the previous report here at WP:ANI (linked to in my first edit in this discussion). As for the rest it's just a repeat of CESNUR's by now utterly boring standard line about every addition of anything that can be seen as negative to any article related to CESNUR, Introvigne, Oleg Maltsev or any of the other cults that Introvigne and CESNUR fraternise with, and every removal of any of the unsourced/badly sourced promotion that is repeatedly added to those articles, being linked to either communists, "green parties" or Russian anti-cultists. And no, being hosted on WSRP doesn't automagically make material a reliable source, since it's of very variable quality, and not peer-reviewed, so everything hosted there has to stand on its own, and be carefully scrutinized and evaluated. - Tom | Thomas.W talk17:17, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Each of us may have some valid points here.
I am by inclination a peaceful person and one willing to take opposite points of view into account. The fact that L’Humanitè is the journal of the French Communist Party and De Groene Amsterdamer of a small left-wing ecological Dutch party are facts. I find Wikipedia copyright practice difficult to understand and perhaps have something to learn (if a religion, being it the Catholic Church or an obscure cult, wants to provide sympathetic researchers with pictures and authorize them to use them it seems to me a good thing in a world with too much copyright hassles, but Wikipedia may disagree - other Web sites don’t).
On certain entries, again, I believe that rather than continuing a time-consuming spiral of adding-reverting-counter-reverting we should ask administrators to look at least at CESNUR and solve some issues.
I am both flattered to be identified with Introvigne and find slightly amusing that, having a significant number of staff members and research assistants, as anybody who has attended a CESNUR conference knows, he would edit Wikipedia personally - it seems other matters should keep him quite busy Aidayoung (talk) 14:17, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Aidayoung has changed their story at the Commons discussion, and is now saying that they did take these photos after all. So again, they took photos which were first used by Introvigne for article published, under copyright, by wrldrels.org and then uploaded by Aidayoung to Commons later. As I said at that discussion, either Aidayoung took photos which were personally selected and used by Introvigne in multiple articles about different religions in different countries, without any attribution to anyone else, or Aidayoung did not have the rights to upload these photos and is lying. Grayfell (talk) 21:18, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not used “by Introvigne” but used “by WRSP.” You seem unaware of how journals and large web sites such as WRSP operate. They deal with copyright issues and select pictures rather than the author of the texts. WRSP included several thousand pictures they receive from people approving of their enterprise for their huge archive. I have a right to put my pictures at free disposal of both WRSP and Wikipedia.
I should also lament here the liberal name-calling. We are all trying to improve Wikipedia in our free time. I may regards eg Scientology in a less negative way than you di but this is no reason to resort to call people “liar” or worse Aidayoung (talk) 12:47, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You said that "I have presented others as my own ... to make the copyright approval process simpler". What is this if not an admission that you are trying to game the system for your own convenience? You have told us that these photos were provided by someone else, but then later said that you took almost all of them yourself. The two which you have not claimed ownership of both conspicuously indicated a direct connection to Introvigne. The first being taken at Odessa at an event Introvigne was known to have attended, and the second which includes "Italian iPhone" in the name. In other words, it appears you are attempting to use this copyright issue to downplay obvious signs of COI involvement. The only plausible explanation for this behavior is that either you are Introvigne, or you are someone who has traveled with him to multiple countries and worked closely with him for multiple years. It doesn't really matter which, because your behavior shows that you are willing to game the system to inflate the significance of Introvigne and his associates. This is not appropriate behavior on Wikipedia. Grayfell (talk) 23:28, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I believe we are keep repeating the same stuff and perhaps we should wait for administrators to decide. I maintain that - quite apart from the fight about the CESNUR entry, where administrators should decide on substantial matters of defamation - entries I wrote on other subjects are balanced and informative and used the best available sources, which in some cases happens to be CESNUR publications or articles or books by Introvigne, who is after all a prolific author. But as I said repeating the same arguments is becoming circular and boring. I assume we all have better things to do in life. Let the administrators decide. Aidayoung (talk) 02:25, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Emory College students placing assignment tags
Patrolling recent changes, I stumbled upon a project apparently created by Emory College with the apparent aim to edit a number of articles on Wikipedia [24]. I've had a look at some of the edits. As can be expected in any college course, some are really good, other rather bad. My reason for bringing it here is that students place tags at article talk spaces, as in this example. I have doubts about this. I take it Emory College is not exceptional in any way, so if we decide that this is ok, and we soon have 1000 college courses *60 students, we'll be looking at 60.000 tags being placed. If there is a policy in place, I am not familiar with it. I must say I do not see how these tags contribute to WP in any way. Jeppiz (talk) 14:29, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's pretty standard if not invariably used. Useful too, as it directs discussion of issues to course instructors and WikiEd liaisons. Don't see where the detriment comes in? --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 14:43, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(Non-administrator comment) Such flags are useful in understanding some otherwise strange editing patterns, with new editors biting off more than they can chew or edit-warring in material because they feel that it needs to be kept in in order for them to get a good grade. --Nat Gertler (talk) 15:32, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If you edit history or art subjects you will be extremely familiar with them, and they do serve to warn other editors. In fact, amazingly often there are no edits to the article, or very minor ones. What I don't like is that the tags never get removed, & some articles already have more than one (eg Talk:Claude Monet - 2 from 2018), as this programme has been running for several years. Contrary to what Elmidae says, it is very difficult to engage the students/instructors/Wiki-Ed "experts" in useful discussion. The choice of obvious big subjects already with very good articles very often sets students up to fail, it seems to me. Johnbod (talk) 17:31, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So, do we need some sort of guidance or project page that documents this as normal and/or expected, to avoid future confusion? Guy (help!) 15:47, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And I'd add that I find these templates very useful, as it offers a contact route to point out to the teacher involved when there is a pattern of poor editing reflecting either poor teaching or poor learning! PamD16:06, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Johnbod: I apologise if we sometimes appear difficult to contact. If you ping Ian (Wiki Ed), Shalor (Wiki Ed) or Elysia (Wiki Ed) we will respond. Students don't always get how to engage on-wiki (and are sometime afraid to) but they will almost always respond to concerns funneled through their instructors.
As for working on well-developed articles - we strongly encourage students to work on stub and start class, and steer them away from B, GA and FA-class. We're still working to get better at this (last semester added a system to notify us when students edit GAs or FAs), but we actively discourage student editors from editing high quality articles. Ian (Wiki Ed) (talk)/Guettarda16:40, 13 November 2019 (UTC) (Double-signing in keeping with the rules regarding alt accounts in project space.)[reply]
I can't say that's been my experience frankly (I specified useful discussion). One typical problem is that the reviews, on which quite a lot of emphasis seems to be placed, typically are placedcon the student editor's talk page, not the article's, which effectively prevents other (more experienced) editors commenting. Plus of course that neither students nor instructors ever seem to stay on wp, so don't read comments or see edits. Johnbod (talk) 17:39, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Johnbod, sad but true. BTW, I've had students write reviews on article talk pages, only to be scolded by regulars who didn't wish for reviews by untrained editors to be placed there. In other words, sometimes you can't win. I agree that many times such reviews aren't very conducive to article improvement, but they sometimes do help those student editors become better editors. At least for that semester... Drmies (talk) 03:21, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Can I just thank everybody for the helpful replies. Despite editing for so many years, I had never come across this (perhaps I edit topics that are not interesting enough ;) ). In any case, I understand the tags and they are indeed helpful. Some of the students involved appeared to do constructive edits, some to plagiarize. As a Professor myself, I recognize both behavior very well, so nothing unusual there. Thanks again for the information. Jeppiz (talk) 16:43, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If you've never come across this reoccurring issue, then, with respect your not well placed to ask anything. Can I just request you stick to commenting on areas in which you have knowledge, and are not so fraught, and don't involve usefully guiding students. Ceoil (talk) 17:52, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Multiple reverts and WP:TE on the same content by Snooganssnoogans in which Neutrality and Snooganssnoogans repeatedly revert content inserted by Rebecca jones (and later by me) over a couple of days. I noticed on my watchlist. Then Acroterion admonished Rebecca (and me) when I agreed that the edits did look like vandalism. I used the wrong term, instead it looks like WP:TE or WP:CIRCUS. Eventually El C locked the article.
Article subsequently locked 02:35, 12 November 2019 El C
Might be useful if this article had a 1RR, it has worked well for the blockchain space at WP:GS/Crypto. Also admins can review the behavior of the involved editors and give feedback (I welcome it as well).
Thanks!
Jtbobwaysf (talk) 03:31, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I was thinking of applying 1RR to the article, may still do so once the protection expires. But, Jtbobwaysf, per WP:ONUS, why don't you wait for the RfC to conclude rather than edit war over the contested addition? El_C03:34, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You and the single-purpose account Rebecca Jones are edit-warring new content into the lead of the article. Content that multiple editors on the talk page have objected to as inappropriate for the lead. After attempting to bully (3 reverts within 24 hrs) content contested by multiple editors into the lead (!) of the article and falsely accusing others of vandalism, you now drag me here? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:44, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The OP doesn't have especially clean hands, and I've had to remind them and Rebecca Jones that disagreement isn't vandalism. I remind them again - don't cast aspersions to win an argument. Acroterion(talk)03:45, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I support 1RR being applied to this article and the user Snooganssnoogans receiving a further warning. The track record of this account shows nothing but biased editing in order to further their own personal opinions and biases. Apeholder (talk) 03:51, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Look at the history of this page and their user talk page - when they have the amount of complaints they do - at what point does it go from an "aspersion" to a legitimate concern? Apeholder (talk) 04:00, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I just reported Snoogansnoogans last week for gaming the system on reverts. They routinely do a 3RR and stop before going to 4RR, just as they have done on the article in question today. If, as their last edit summary revert says[31], that there are multiple editors that disagree with this edit, then why are they not letting those editors also do the reverts? I recommended last week Snooganssnoogans be placed on a 1RR for six months and ElC closed that and said I could take it to AN/I, etc. Well, here we are, once again, same story. The best part of this is that just before Snooganssnoogans did their last revert to 3RR, they warned another editor for edit warring on another page[32]. Oh and hey, this isn't some conspiracy theory of fake news...its all in the diffs. Snooganssnoogans may indeed be dealing with, as they claim, SPS's and or bullies (or bully--->to force something into an article, I suspect is the intended acrimonious insult) as they called me last week[33], but well, its okay I suspect if they engage in "aspersions", right?--MONGO (talk) 04:19, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I just had another editor arrive on my talkpage to complain [35]. So far I've been chiefly concerned with the application of the "vandalism" epithet to disagreement as a means of gaining the upper hand. My review of editor behavior has thus far been confined to Julian Assange, where it's mostly bickering and some WP:RGW activity. Acroterion(talk)04:34, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Administrators aren't omniscient, and I've spent much of this evening dealing with puerile image vandalism rather than conducting wide-ranging reviews of editor conduct. Until now this thread was concerned only with behavior surrounding Julian Assange, where the scope is pretty narrow. Some of this might be best raised at AE, since some of these topics are under restriction. We have content disputes with folks running right up to three reverts. I'd suggest 1RR be applied to the articles at issue. But I'm signing off for the evening. Acroterion(talk)04:50, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Snooganssnoogans's edits (like mine) were perfectly proper; new and disputed content certainly cannot go in the lead section of a biography without a consensus for it, which is of course lacking here. That's what WP:ONUS is all about. Neutralitytalk04:36, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, the information that Assange was imprisoned in Belmarsh prison was added to the lead on 2 May, so it's hardly "new". I think it's useful, but it's certainly not worth edit-warring about. I think the major behavioural issue has been created by Rebecca jones who has been constantly edit-warring and labelling other edits as "vandalism". After she repetitively did that, I made a comment on the article's talk page on 22 September and on her talk page on 24 September. Yet she has continued to do it. Jtbobwaysf and others seem to be tacitly supporting or excusing her behaviour. I think this is a case of WP:Boomerang.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:02, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No doubt some bad actions are happening all around really and ElC was correct to lock the pages down to prevent further edit warring. Is there proof others are engaging in 3RR games on multiple articles tirelessly week after week though?--MONGO (talk) 05:16, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
When one patrols hundreds (if not thousands) of controversial politics pages, one is bound to do a lot of reverting. Just in the last week, I spent time repeatedly removing content which I discovered was added by a COI PR account[36] and wasting time reverting and talking to what was obviously a yet-to-be-exposed-sockpuppet account[37]. Users such as yourself may have opted to turn a blind eye, hope that someone else will step in, and let these editors abuse the editing process. Others, such as myself, don't let editors bully bad content into articles, and sometimes part of that is doing lots of reverts (while also adhering to BRD). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 05:42, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You were absolutely bullying content into that page. You failed to adhere to BRD by repeatedly edit-warring new content into the article. I started the talk page discussion, not you. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 05:56, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for calling my good faith edits "bullying". You routinely wait till you're at 3RR to start discussion. That image was added by another editor in good faith...you just didn't like it. But instead of taking out another image of lesser quality, you just revert warred till you reached 3RR.--MONGO (talk) 06:11, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And Snoogans continuing to bully on these talk pages. Its these types of WP:OWNERSHIP focused editors that drive away other editors, especially when they are skilled and skirt to avoid violating the 3RR and the admins are too weak/afraid to sanction a clear pattern of violation. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:34, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding WP:OWNERSHIP: The case you bring to us here is a case where you edit-warred new content into the lede of a BLP, despite vociferous objections from many other editors, and reverts from other editors. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 21:23, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Just to be clear: The disputed part of the lede (that Assange's life is at risk) was added in a series of edits by Rebecca Jones on November 1 (which are hidden due to copyright violations).[38] So it is new (and the source cited is from 1 November 2019). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 05:23, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
However, when you removed the disputed part on 8 November, you also removed the rest of the sentence, which had been there since May. And that was a little heavy-handed.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:08, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and just for clarification: I only removed that part (the long-standing content) once[39], and that was that time. So entirely consistent with BRD (not that you're accusing me of anything). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 07:25, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have not comment about this specific page but Snoogan's overall editing approach works against building consensus. I agree with those who feel their edits are POV pushing. Snoogan is very good at never actually crossing the line but spending a great deal of time way to near it. One problematic example is they are happy to get into long term edit war but too often don't go to the talk page to discuss the disagreements. That applies to the case Acroterion mentioned on their talk page. Some edits are inaccurate to the source and phrased as to make the article subject more distasteful than it might otherwise be. For example this edit where a correlation is referred to as causation [[40]] or this case where the editor ignored the objections of two other editors (one being an IP editor) [[41]]. Despite a back and forth that lasted over a month Snoogan didn't raise the question at the talk page. Snoogan's is very happy to make bad faith accusations against editors who disagree with Snoogan's edits such as here where I was accused of willfully ignoring a RfC that was in the talk page archive and occurred before I edited the page for the first time.[[42]] The long term pattern of behavior was noted by @Awilley: here [[43]]. In summary, I don't think any particular edit or action of Snoogan's crosses the line but there are many cases of poor edits that look like attempts to discredit or place "half truths" (factually correct but lacking in context or mitigating details), frequent edit warring (but great car to not step over the 3RR line), and rather than using the talk page as the first place to civilly solve disagreements, they only reluctantly go to the talk page. Once at the talk page the ideas of those who oppose are dismissed without due consideration and not infrequently with uncivil comments that either assume bad faith or fail to FOC. I have trouble believing Wikipedia as a whole is better for Snoogan's edits. As such I don't think Snoogan's actions here should be viewed as a generally good editor who just was edit warring. Instead this should be a problematic editor who has practiced avoiding the line while walking along it. Springee (talk) 05:33, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is an aggrieved editor who I have clashed with repeatedly and who generally has a POV contrary to mine. In my last encounter with this editor, Springee was removing text agreed upon in a RfC on the Wall Street Journal page (I created the RfC because I do actually build consensus) about the editorial board's promotion of fringe science, including a citation to the most prominent academic book on the climate change denial movement. Despite having never read the book and despite having been pointed to the RfC, this editor repeatedly removed citations to the book, falsely claiming that the book (which he had not read) did not support the text.[44] After pointing this editor to direct quotes from the book that supported the text, the editor moved the goalposts and kept arguing against inclusion of the book. This is a good example of why editing in American politics is so dysfunctional and why it's fraught with conflicts: failure to stick with a RfC, dismissal of the best sources, and constant shifting of goalposts. The example also highlights the difference between me and others in terms of building consensus: I started a RfC to settle the content dispute in the first place... Springee violated the consensus reached in the RfC, refused to start a RfC of his own, yet kept edit-warring his preferred changes into the article. Springee, Mongo and these other editors are holding me to a standard that none of these editors adhere themselves to. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 05:53, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There is a long line of aggrieved editors with whom Snoog has edit warred.
Edit warring warnings on Snoog's talk page in last two weeks: 1, 2, 3, 4.
WP:ANEW filings in last few months: September: No violation because didn't breach 3RR; October: No violation because didn't breach 3RR; November: Report declined. quote El C: "I'm sorry, but this just isn't the venue to address these sort of potential problems. Such a venue would be AN/I, where, for example, such specialized sanctions as a six month 1RR restriction, and so on, can be proposed and implemented." [emphasis added]
I stand corrected. (Although I still don't understand, when we're talking about multiple DS areas [BLP and AP2], why a report to ANEW can't result in admin action without a 4RR. This 4RR requirement at ANEW seems prone to gaming, as seen here.) – Levivich06:18, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Levivich, if I had seen the edits at Great Leap Forward I would have blocked that IP that you claim Snoogans was edit-warring with. Removal of academic publications with a BS edit summary is vandalism (the book was published by Routledge, for crying out loud), so if there was ever a case to call for an exemption to EW, this is it: they were reverting some blatant vandalism. And if you had looked at the IP's other contributions, you would have seen they obviously have a bone to pick with the author of that book, and those edits combined with the BLP violations in the edit summaries (Acroterion, are they worth revdeleting?) are enough cause for a block. So thanks, Snooganssnoogans, for reverting that. Drmies (talk) 03:04, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly disagree. Patrolling controversial topics means one will inevitably be involved in content disputes. The fact that Snooganssnoogans hasn't violated 3RR here is instructive - being repeatedly and tendentiously hauled into 3RRNB and having those reports declined because they expressly were not violating policy is not remotely a reason to impose sanctions. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:14, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Those diffs are not examples of a "content dispute". They are examples of edit warring. There's a big difference. Content disputes happen on talk pages, not with the undo button. – Levivich06:16, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Your proposed example of Snooganssnoogans' wrongdoing, Killing of Mollie Tibbetts, is in fact an instructive example of the good work that they are doing. One of the editors they reverted, 88Dragons, was expressly a sockpuppet of a banned user; another, GlassBones, is a single-purpose account who has self-admitted that they are here to push a right-wing POV - they said on Talk:Hunter Biden that It should be obvious that the editors of Wikipedia are overwhelmingly liberal and will do nearly anything to protect the left-wing bias in all articles about political figures. These are problematic users, and reverting problematic edits by problematic users is the opposite of undesirable behavior. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:18, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Dear NorthBySouthBaranof (talk): Contrary to your fallacious statement, I did not self-admit on the Hunter Biden talk page that I edit Wikipedia to push a right wing point of view. What I take issue with is those editors who edit Wikipedia with a bias, in most cases a strong liberal bias, rather than editing from a neutral point of view. There should be no bias, liberal or conservative, in Wikipedia articles about political figures, but sadly that is not the case. The language of the Hunter Biden article, and the statements made on the Talk page by numerous editors, bear this out. GlassBones (talk) 02:03, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't do that bullshit thing where you cherry-pick one example out of several dozen and then argue that it's "instructive". I already labelled that as one of the "lesser examples". Don't pretend there isn't a problem here. – Levivich06:20, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I picked literally one article at random to investigate; I could go through each and every one of your examples and probably find many of the same patterns. There isn't a problem here. Well, actually, there is a problem - there is a problem with right-wing POV-pushing on the encyclopedia often involving defamatory claims and unreliable sources. In fact, here's another example: their reverts on Jack Posobiec involve removing clear attempts at whitewashing a fringe far-right conspiracy theorist involved in promoting the Pizzagate nonsense. The edit they reverted instead described Posobiec as a journalist and reduced the reliably-sourced factual descriptions of him to "characterized by critics and political opponents." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:25, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Just wow. So you're upset that in wiki-voice we couldn't outright call this person a "fringe far-right conspiracy theorist" and instead had to attribute it to critics?--MONGO (talk) 06:35, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You do realize that we go with what reliable sources say, right? Reliable sources factually describe him as such — it's not merely what "critics and political opponents" say. Unless you're going to argue that everything cited in the lede from ABC News to the Columbia Journalism Review, The New York Times, and Philadelphia are "critics and political opponents." If that's your argument, you're on the wrong encyclopedia project. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:40, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In the diff you showed...here seems the removal of those very same sources was done by Snooganssnoogans. He restored the link to pizzagate which is fine, but why remove the other reliable sourced things? Is the effort to merely malign the BLP? Please don't tell me I am on the wrong encyclopedia project.--MONGO (talk) 06:51, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There's a decent argument that the sources referenced are either passing mentions or cytogenetic. Anyone who supports that sort of sourcing is definitely on the wrong encyclopedia project. - Ryk72talk07:19, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In an article that is geared towards maligning and being a borderline BLP and NPOV wasteland, a few balancing positives for the sake of human decency are of course unacceptable. Apparently reliable sources are only reliable for the portions of information that support the predetermined biases, right?--MONGO (talk) 07:34, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. Let's look at Julian Assange - where Snooganssnoogans appropriately removed disputed material from the article lede (which had previously been removed by Neutrality) and directed the user to the talk page. Jtbobwaysf's attempts to force disputed material into the lede by edit-warring, despite multiple objections, in contravention of the BRD cycle, is what's actually objectionable here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:35, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Why am I going to bother responding to each when this is the weak sauce you bring? I literally couldn't even remember editing the Great Leap Forward, yet for you this is yet another example of problematic behavior... so what is it? Oh, it's where I am restoring a peer-reviewed book by one of the leading scholars on genocide when two new accounts were ludicrously claiming this scholar was not an expert on the topic just so that they could whitewash the page.[45][46] I should be rewarded for this kind of editing - it says more about you than me that you consider these to be horrible edits. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 06:30, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) It's so telling that one of the examples cited here is me removing text added by a sockuppet account with a neo-nazi-ish account name[47] who added nonsense on the Killing of Mollie Tibbetts. It's almost as if a prolific and highly active editor who patrols controversial politics pages will end up doing a lot of reverts. I'm so sad for you Levivich that this neonazi sockpuppet didn't start a spurious edit-warring noticeboard discussion so that you could lump it in there with the other spurious complaints by aggrieved editors who were not given carte blanche to force BS into Wikipedia articles in contravention to WP:BRD. I have a list of complaints against me listed on my userpage, many from fringe folks on internet forums... seeing as how you're throwing spaghetti on the wall, to see what sticks, feel free to add those to your list of complaints against me. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 06:21, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) I also have a history with Levivich. Every time someone a brings a complaint against me, no matter how meritless and weak, this editor must enter the fray calling for sanctions on me. Levivich has been on my case ever since he sought to scrub RS content from 2018 United States elections (because he personally disagreed with what the RS were saying), and the dysfunction went so far that he even brazenly removed content[48] shortly after it was approved in a RfC (started by me - because I do build consensus).[49] Ever since, he's been in every discussion where someone raises a complaint about me to argue on behalf of the filer of the meritless complaints (when those filers are inevitably boomeranged) and/or saying I'm a huge problem that needs to be dealt with. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 06:21, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Definition of edit warring: "Edit warring is a behavior, typically exemplified by the use of repeated edits to "win" a content dispute. It is different than a bold, revert, discuss (BRD) cycle. Reverting vandalism and banned users is not edit warring; at the same time, content disputes, even egregious point of view edits and other good-faith changes do not constitute vandalism. Administrators often must make a judgment call to identify edit warring when cooling disputes. Administrators currently use several measures to determine if a user is edit warring".--MONGO (talk) 06:24, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
For clarification allow me to emphasize the wording "...content disputes, even egregious point of view edits and other good-faith changes...". Yet you label such things as "bullying"...--MONGO (talk) 06:27, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As can be seen from the riveting conversation above, Snoog & Friends will inevitably argue that because Snoog was right on the content, therefore his edit warring was justified–laudable, in fact. This will continue so long as the community allows it. Put me down for supporting a 1RR restriction, of course. – Levivich06:39, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I second this. Snoogans has often engaged in edit warring, and whether or not he has engaged in constructive editing, it's at least clear to me that he engages far more in unconstructive, uncivil reverting. He's engaged in personal attacks and he reverts without discussion: as one user said before, there's a history of Snoogans discussing content disputes. While some may beg to differ, the countless reports filed against him, regardless of outcome, combined with this particular incident thread packed with activity, show that there's definitely a problem. I've tried to discuss content disputes with him, but for someone who points out failures to engage in BRD, he sure doesn't like to talk about said disputes like an adult. Snoogans says that these reports are "meritless," but then again, look who likes to edit-war, make meritless reverts, use hypocritical logic and move the goalposts. --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 07:06, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
For context, this is an editor whose unproductive edits I've reverted on Brian Kemp (a few weeks ago) and Concealed carry in the United States (earlier today). Earlier,[50] this editor falsely accused me of stalking him to those pages (despite the fact that I'm a regular editor on both and precede him on both), and then doubled down on the false claim when I pointed out the error[51]. The editor only knows me from those two disputes (and yet can't even get them right), and is still here talking about my history as if he's intimately familiar with it. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 07:20, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's laughable. First off, there's your contributions, with an extensive list of all the times you've engaged in edit-warring and content disputes. You're the one who thinks an NAS review is infallible and that all other studies are fallible. Your reverts are typically unconstructive and your lack of logic regarding academic qualification equally so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrThunderbolt1000T (talk • contribs) 08:05, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This, right here. Snoogans is out of control and he needs to be held accountable for all of the ridiculous, malicious things he does. There's insurmountable evidence. If nothing is done about this, then I'd seriously have to question Wikipedia, its stated intent and everything else. Snoogans is clearly out of line and nothing has been done, but something has to be done. --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 08:13, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"Unhinged rant" was in response to the most random unhinged rant accusing me of being in favor of the dictatorial regimes in Saudi Arabia and Jordan.[53] I was not aware that "shit" as a description of a source was prohibited here. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 08:19, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a few more from the Tucker Carlson article - 1, 2, 3, and then 1, 2, 3, 4. In general this is a big part of Snoogans editing style. I would support a 1RR or a topic ban from AMPOL2, but since that is nearly exclusively where they edit it would be a soft site ban, so would prefer something less drastic. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:34, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm another "aggrieved" editor, though I'm not a "right-wing" editor. I also had an experience with Snooganssnoogans repeatedly going right up to the 3RR line, but not crossing it (as far as I recall). For those editors arguing that Snooganssnoogans is being attacked by "right-wing" editors, note that in this case, Snoogans was actually pushing what is generally regarded as a right-wing view: arguing that high Iraqi casualty estimates in the Iraq War had been discredited. Starting in October 2017, Snoogans began aggressively "bullying" (to use Snoogans' phrase) through large-scale changes to Casualties of the Iraq War ([54][55][56]). These changes were controversial, among other things because they implicitly labeled the most widely cited studies on Iraq War Casualties as not "credible." I and a number of other editors objected, reverting some of Snoogans' changes. There were also a couple of editors who broadly supported Snoogans' changes. However, Snoogans did not obey WP:BRD, but instead repeatedly went right up to the 3RR line. Because of the unwillingness of other editors to match Snoogans revert-for-revert, Snoogans' changes remained in the article for nearly two years, without there ever being a consensus on the talk page for the large-scale changes Snoogans had made. To give one example, over the course of 5 days (9-14 July 2018), Snoogans reverted the article 11 times ([57][58][59][60][61][62][63][64][65][66][67]), undoing the edits of four different editors (myself included). During this spree of revert-warring, Snoogans also took the time to make further significant changes to the article along largely the same controversial lines ([68]), which Snoogans must have known the other four editors would object to. This is not what WP:BRD looks like.
Finally, after a DRN that went nowhere ([69]), I proposed changes to the lede on the talk page, and pinged all involved editors, including Snoogans. Two other editors, including one who had previously supported Snoogans' edits, agreed to the updated lede. I waited for three days, during which time Snoogans did not comment: [70]. I then updated the lede, as discussed on the talk page: [71]. Exactly 20 minutes later, Snoogans reverted my edit: [72]. Just to recap, Snoogans did not respond for three days to my ping, while the only other editor who had supported Snoogans agreed to the updated lede. The moment I changed the lede, though, Snoogans swooped in to revert. I asked Snoogans to self-revert ([73]), but they ignored that request, instead demanding an RfC - essentially, Snoogans was asserting the right to revert endlessly until an RfC overruled them. Snoogans' excuse for not engaging in the talk page, but instead reverting against the consensus of the other three active editors, was that "I cannot spend the rest of my life dealing with this BS" ([74]). Now, having an RfC is fine, but asserting one's sole right to control an article against all other editors until an RfC is held is not right. We finally had the RfC, and something very close to my proposed lede was accepted.
It seems that I'm not the only person who's had this sort of experience with Snooganssnoogans. Maybe this is all a right-wing conspiracy to get Snoogans, but I'm not right-wing, and in the case I describe above, Snoogans was the one arguing the right-wing position. -Thucydides411 (talk) 17:36, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I did say "the occasional far-left editor", which you are. Your recollection of the editing on the Casualities of the Iraq War page is a complete mess, and involves multiple editors supporting and opposing various versions of content over the span of a year or more. In your case, you were removing any and all peer-reviewed research from the body which called into question an inflated estimate of the number of casualties in the Iraq War (a left-wing talking point is to exaggerate the casualties of the war). Removing peer-reviewed research is not a uniquely right-wing thing to do. As I said, the occasional far-left editor sometimes does it. Besides scrubbing peer-reviewed research on that page, I primarily know this user as one who scrubs RS content on the Julian Assange, Wikileaks and Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections... because on the far-left (just like the far-right), Russia apparently did not intervene in the 2016 election. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:15, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone can go check the talk page of Casualties of the Iraq War and see that your claim about me ignoring peer-reviewed research is a bald-faced lie. I actually did a thorough literature review ([75][76]), in response to your cherry-picking of papers by one particular author. The issue is not who was right or wrong on the content question, however (although I'll note that the RfC you demanded as a condition of ending your revert-war found in my favor). The issue is that you repeatedly violated BRD and tried to revert-war your edits through, regardless of how many other editors disagreed with your edits. Ultimately, nobody was willing to revert as much as you (in the example I gave above - and there are others - you carried out 11 reverts against four editors in less than 5 days on that one article). That is not an acceptable way to edit. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:47, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A pattern of edit warring has been shown as well as a disregard for the views/concerns of other editors. Snoogans feels that they are making good edit and when they go to the talk page they are able to persuade or use RfCs to correct problems with articles. A 1RR limit doesn't prevent their making article changes nor does it prevent consensus building. However, it does prevent the pattern of reverting others without trying to discuss or build consensus. This should result in a minimal impact to good article changes and reduce the number of edit warring complaints. Springee (talk) 13:43, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Meh. Snoogs is the textbook example of being right in the wrong way. I'd like to hope we can find something other than cudgels to fix this. Guy (help!) 13:59, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support I think everyone who edits American politics has experienced Snoog's edit-warring or battleground behavior. This is a consistent problem. Just look at the above diffs. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 15:00, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The notion that 1RR would have a minimal impact on patrolling is absurd. As someone who patrols hundreds (if not thousands) of controversial American politics pages (which are rife with bad edits), it would force me to dedicate countless hours to starting talk page discussions and keeping tabs of dozens of on-going disputes without any effective way of ensuring a stable status quo version of the article... it would make it effectively impossible to patrol pages (many of which do not have other active veteran editors on them), because I cannot start a talk page discussion every time a neonazi sockpuppet adds anti-immigrant propaganda to a page (literally one of the examples of 'problematic behavior' cited against me by Levivich who has spent almost a year gathering data on me due to his vendetta against me, yet these are the examples he brings to the table)... the consequence would be to allow editors (whether they are new acounts, blatant COI accounts or regular editors who edit in a problematic way) to abuse the editing process and let bad content slide into countless articles. Three of the voters above, Springee, Mongo and Levivich have a history of edit-warring new content into articles (in violation of WP:BRD), and with me removing that content (in two cases they edit-warred changes which violated a consensus reached in a RfC[[77]][78][79][80]). Mr Ernie and Red Rock Canyon have a right-wing POV. The goal is purely to prevent one of the most active and prolific patrollers in their topic area from being able to prevent them and like-minded editors from bullying bad new changes into articles. The standards that they hold me to are standards that they themselves do not adhere to in the slightest. You would for instance never in your wildest dreams see me, a supposedly horrific edit-warrior, violate a RfC consensus, yet that is precisely what the proposer has done (and being the good editor I am I had to revert him when he did that[81][82]... 1RR would have stopped me from doing that, which is what this editor wants). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:43, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You're responsible for this. If you didn't engage in edit-warring, battleground behavior, lying and the like, this wouldn't be an issue. Because you act like American politics is your courtroom to preside over, this is why all of us are here. Why don't you become a constructive editor and stop accusing people of right-wing POV for disagreeing with your reverts? You engaged in an edit-war with me and several other users, even engaging in a personal attack because you can't accept a lede representing a body accurately. This is ridiculous. If you want to patrol American political articles, then stop being an edit warrior, a hypocrite, and a liar. Don't complain if your refusal to be civil and reasonable gets you impeded from patrolling. Everybody here has seen your battleground behavior and your edit-warring. I was 100% willing to have a civil conversation on the matter, and gave you ample time to respond, but just like you always do, your first instinct is to revert. It looks like to just about everyone here that you can't take being wrong. --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 18:07, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I was actually with you up until you started casting the aspersions. But the problem is that you are the one bullying bad new changes into articles. Take the Bill Barr page for example. Two sections you edit warred to include, the secularists blurb and the Trump hotel party blurb, do not have consensus as encyclopedic topics. That's the problem. You have a different view of what should be in articles, and one that I don't think conforms with NOTNEWS and DUE. You also edit war to include such changes, as is widely demonstrated in the diffs above. The 1RR restriction is an attempt to stop that. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:53, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Just one thing I want to clarify: I didn't spend a year gathering data on Snoog. That would be weird stalkerish-type behavior on my part. The diffs I posted here I gathered in about 20 minutes yesterday, by going back through Snoog's mainspace contribs to October 30 (two weeks). It's really easy to do: click on his contribs, filter by mainspace namespace only, and look for the repeated "undos" (the +/- bytes changed is a dead giveaway). I have done this before–IIRC in another ANI thread about six months ago, and that one was a deeper dive (I went back more than two weeks). But I have no idea what "the worst" examples of Snoog's editing are; I only can say that there are lots of recent examples of edit warring and, specifically, gaming 3RR. – Levivich16:43, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is yet another editor who sought to bully bad changes into an article with a right-wing POV. On the William Barr page, which is covered by 1RR and consensus-required (to restore challenged edits), this editor edit-warred contested content back into the article, which I reverted[83][84]. I did not file an edit-warring case against the editor (despite the blatant violation of consensus-required) nor did I revert him again. When I informed the editor that he should seek a consensus, the editor threatened to edit-war again, demonstrating the kind of attitude in which he approaches editing with[85]. Again, these editors (most of whom have right-wing POVs) do not in the slightest follow the standards that they apply to me. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:46, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You're leaving out a very important fact. These so-called "bad changes" were overwhelmingly supported by uninvolved editors when I opened up an RfC, which closed in favor of the changes that you tried to edit-war out of the article. You have a very hostile attitude and many of the editors here have said the same. Your stalwart refusal to recognize this is a cause for concern. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧19:34, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The RfC did not conclude in favor of the text that you edit-warred into the article (a misleading snippet)[86][87], but a different NPOV version of the text (a full quote which made it clear what the context was)[88]. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:53, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I’ve had conflicts with Snog before in the past but his work combatting quackery and politics agenda editing in general is solid. He was one of the major people, along with myself and others, that uncovered a sockpuppet ring on Center for Immigration Studies. He should be more careful but this is excessive. ToaNidhiki0517:30, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My editing on Center for Immigration Studies is an instructive example of the great lengths I go to to achieve consensus and to engage in discussion even when the opposing editors are obviously not making good edits and are obviously not operating in good faith. I spent upwards to two years (!) combating what was ultimately revealed to be a nest of 5-10 sockpuppets, and wasting dozens (maybe hundreds) of hours meticulously dealing with their concerns, starting RfCs, looking up the sources that they were bringing to the table (and usually always misrepresenting them), and of course also doing a lot of reverting. For most of those two years, it was up to me alone to deal with those editors. If 1RR had been in effect for me, then I would not have been able to deal with that nest of sockpuppets, and those editors would (1) have been able to insert and keep their awful content in the article and (2) would likely not have been exposed as sockpuppets. My user talk page is also full of complaints from these very same sockpuppets, which Levivich might take as evidence of what a horrible editor I am (because adding ten spurious complaints together must somehow equate one legitimate complaint, am I right?). If anyone wants to understand what editing on controversial Am Politics is like (and why reverting is often necessary), please read the Center for Immigration Studies archives, starting perhaps here[92]. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:42, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would argue the details of Snoogan's accusations against me, especially the false claim that I was reverting against the outcome of a RfC that I was aware of, but I think the above kind of drives home the point. No one is opposed to Snoogan reverting actual socks/vandalism. It's when they POV push and refuse to engage in discussion with experienced editors that things become a problem. It's worth noting that Snoogan's account has a TBAN related to spamming the material into a large number of pages at once.[[93]] In that case it was clear the material Snoog was adding was not just to patrol. The edits were seen as often POV pushing. Snoog is getting a pass on their bad behavior because they also do some good. In that case the remedy was narrow to try to lance the boil while saving the rest of the body. I think this 1RR is similar. If the edits are good, make the case and others will defend them. If they aren't and others disagree we avoid edit wars. Anything that encourages discussion vs reversion is likely a good thing. Springee (talk) 19:31, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"If the edits are good, make the case and others will defend them. If they aren't and others disagree we avoid edit wars. Anything that encourages discussion vs reversion is likely a good thing." This is coming from an editor who was edit-warring changes to content approved in a RfC literally days ago. I can't get over how brazen it is that the filer in this case is the same person who days ago literally edit-warred out consensus text, only for me and other editors having to revert it back to the consensus version (incredibly, this is also one of the examples that Levivich cites as part of my "problematic behavior": me restoring content approved in a RfC)[94][95][96][97][98]. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:03, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In those last three reverts in that string of five, you're putting a single cite into the lead. "Should we include this cite in the lead?" is an easy enough question to pose on the talk page. But by your own admission (above), you don't want to take the time to engage in content disputes the right way: As someone who patrols hundreds (if not thousands) of controversial American politics pages (which are rife with bad edits), it would force me to dedicate countless hours to starting talk page discussions and keeping tabs of dozens of on-going disputes without any effective way of ensuring a stable status quo version of the article... it would make it effectively impossible to patrol pages (many of which do not have other active veteran editors on them), because I cannot start a talk page discussion every time a neonazi sockpuppet adds anti-immigrant propaganda to a page [...] the consequence would be to allow editors (whether they are new acounts, blatant COI accounts or regular editors who edit in a problematic way) to abuse the editing process and let bad content slide into countless articles. The answer might be in patrolling fewer pages, because you're right: content disputes take time to resolve. You can't "patrol" the entire AP2 topic area. – Levivich20:29, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There's literally a weeks-old fresh RfC about the inclusion of the text and the cite. How many RfCs am I supposed to start about the same content? This is what I'm talking about when I'm saying that standards are being applied to me that none of these editors come close to adhering to: I start a RfC to resolve a content dispute, spend hours putting together a solid RfC with appropriate sourcing (academic books and articles), the content gets approved by consensus in the RfC, and then when a "good" veteran editor such as Springee decides to brazenly revert the RfC consensus on multiple occasions[99][100][101][102][103], I am suddenly supposed to start a new RfC? Also, I remind you that this is not some random editor I'm talking about: the editor who is proposing 1RR on me right here right now is the same user who just days ago brazenly violated a RfC consensus on multiple occasions. The shamelessness is absolutely stunning.Snooganssnoogans (talk) 21:16, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(1) the RfC was almost six months ago, not "weeks-old fresh"; (2) the RfC language was "fringe", not "pseudoscientific"; (3) the RfC wasn't about whether it needed a citation, or that particular citation; and (4) what you're supposed to do is discuss it at the talk page and not revert. Even if–and I want to make this next part absolutely clear–even if you're right about the content. – Levivich22:03, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you so reluctant to actually describe Springee's brazen and blatant edit-warring as edit-warring while you at the same time lambast me for restoring the RfC consensus text? I can't emphasize this point enough: the standards that are being applied to me are standards that none of these other editors come close to adhering to themselves. I'm supposed to seek and build consensus (through for example crafting RfCs), yet they have anointed themselves the powers to literally revert RfC consensus text. As for the specifics: (1) The RfC was concluded in June. (2) Pseudoscientific and fringe are the same thing, in particular in this context (and this semantic difference was not cited as a reason behind the reverts). (3) The RfC question included the citation and the discussion shows multiple editors referencing the book in support of the content. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:28, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Everyone you edit war with is also edit warring with you. Obvi. What sets you apart IMO are two things: (1) you edit war way more than anyone else I've yet seen–with 9 editors on 7 articles in the last two weeks, and more if you include the more-justifiable "lesser examples"–and (2) you steadfastly refuse to change, even a little bit. I can't get an "OK, I'll cool it" out of you (so far). Sanctions are a last resort, and "please don't edit war so much with so many other damn editors" is not really a big ask. – Levivich02:52, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I can certainly start more talk page discussions and do so earlier (and I certainly intend to do so). If you're wondering why I do not do that more often, the reason is that it's a huge time sink and every creation of a talk page discussion jointly with a revert will inevitably cut down on the amount of patrolling that can be done and the cost is simply more bad edits slipping into the encyclopedia. And it's not as if I don't start talk page discussions: This encyclopedia is littered with talk pages that contain one comment by me where I explain why I reverted content without a response in sight (these lonely comments by me fulfill a bureaucratic check mark but are in all actuality a complete waste of time). 90% of the edits I revert once or twice are just ridiculously bad edits that don't belong on the encyclopedia, and would never stand the scrutiny of a RfC (see the edit that set off this noticeboard discussion, as well as Springee's brazen and repeated removals of RfC consensus text) - having to start a talk page discussion for each one (as opposed to putting that duty on the editor who is edit-warring new content into an article) would in most cases just appear to serve the sole purpose of filling some bureaucratic check mark. Waiting on an another editor to revert the bad edit (which is often not a realistic thing to expect on poorly patrolled pages) again adds a headache, because that means I have to observe a ludicrously bad edit, let it slide for a day or more, register the edit in question with me in some way, and then come back days later to revert it. The sole effects would be to make patrolling a way more time-consuming endeavor, make it easier for bad content to get in, and let bad content sit and fester in an article for days. However, I certainly do intend to start more talk page discussions, let other editors revert bad edits instead of always instantly reverting bad edits when I see them (for example, I'm sure a dozen different editors would have ultimately reverted the edit that set off this noticeboard and reverted Springee's removal of RfC consensus text), and register edits with me which I check up on days later. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:39, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support Snoogans has engaged in recurrent edit-warring, personal attacks and battleground behavior. Snoogans usually refuses to engage in civil conversation regarding content disputes, this being Snoogans's talk page, where my message (Concealed carry in the United States) went unanswered by him for days, and he engages in personal attacks, as cited by Pudeo above, and he engaged in a personal attack against Apeholder on Apeholder's talk page. Many diffs and other evidence have been cited as to his edit-warring, battleground behavior and lying. As Levivich pointed out, Snoogans has been edit-warring and engaging in battleground behavior against some of Wikipedia's more experienced, dedicated and knowledgeable editors, disrupting the goals of Wikipedia. Snoogans is clearly acting contrary to the guidelines and just being a pain to anyone that has a different opinion. No amount of service to Wikipedia, whether true or false in its existence, justifies or excuses this behavior. I'm 100% in favor of 1RR. I would have no issue if Snoogans breached 3RR to combat vandals and trolls as he claims, but the facts show that he breaches 3RR regularly to win content disputes and to assert battleground behavior. --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 18:32, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I didn't read any part of this thread; I saw a proposal to implement 1RR and that's a yes from me. 1RR should be our standard everywhere, but here's as good a place as any to start. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:05, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've struck this - thanks to a kind email from Doug Weller I realize that the section header is not reflective of the discussion as I interpreted it. I do support applying 1RR everywhere, but that's not what this proposal is. In retrospect it was a silly thing for me to have commented on it in the first place; consider me neutral. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 01:46, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support 1RR for Snooganssnoogans for continued pattern of disruptive behavior, WP:TE, and clear evidence of WP:BATTLE here [104]. Even Snooganssnoogans recent comment on this very ANI page (below) [105] evidence the continuing WP:1AM issues. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:31, 12 November 2019 (Utc)
Comment leaning toward oppose but am confused by the. Claim of regular breaches of 3rr. You breach 3rr regularly, you get blocked frequently. I see no blocks for edit warring. What I think I do see is a political conflict being carried out by some although not all editors here. Not surprising I guess given the area. And a subject heading that looks like it's for a restriction for a topic area or at least thought to be one by at least one editor. Doug Wellertalk22:18, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Doug, 3RR is not an entitlement and you know that. Playing the game of revert warring repeatedly to that threshold is a form of gaming the system. My original thought was a site wide 1RR restriction for six months. Seems this mess will likely end up in arbcom court since this is a multifaceted behavioral situation.--MONGO (talk) 23:52, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose after further consideration and examination, especially per Aquillion and Johnuniq. I'm asking User:Snooganssnoogans to be especially careful about edit summaries in the future - taking it down a notch should avoid another long discussion like this one. Doug Wellertalk06:17, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the behaviour is pretty hostile, but there is always another editor in disputes who should hopefully recognize and stop it with a conversation. I just can’t see how this arbitrary lower limit helps. Kingsif (talk) 22:33, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support 1RR on AP2; (would also support a topic ban on AP2). Per the above diffs; which are a representative sample, not an exhaustive list. - Ryk72talk01:10, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as written. While Snooganssnoogans does need to tone it down, this is part of a larger problem in the AP2 topic area; many of his disputes are with the same group of people (who often lack clean hands themselves when it comes to revert-warring and WP:BATTLEGROUND conduct), many involve edits that ignore a consensus on the talk page, and so on. Certainly WP:3RR is not an entitlement, but it's a red-line rule because that makes it simple to enforce in complex situations; despite what some people say above, in situations that go beyond that easily-defined red line, the context does matter. Where there is extensive problematic editing on all sides, the appropriate thing to do is to go to WP:RFAR so the conduct of everyone involved can be considered in that context, rather than having everyone he's in dispute with line up to demand one-sided restrictions with no deeper analysis. --Aquillion (talk) 01:31, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I agree with "reverting problematic edits by problematic users is the opposite of undesirable behavior" by NorthBySouthBaranof above. Simplistic lists of reverts (which don't violate 3RR) are not evidence of anything other than the obvious: AP is a highly contested area where a lot of reverts occur. Johnuniq (talk) 01:54, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: Now, I've read through this, and I originally wanted to comment earlier, but I went away from my keyboard and got distracted. Anyway, Aquillion has phrased his objection far better than I could, and I would like to echo it: Snooganssnoogans does need to take it down a notch or two, but I fail to see this as the proper solution absent a deeper analysis. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤)03:04, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support 1RR in AP2 Given their long history of edit warring and battle ground behavior something needs to be done. I do not agree with the bad people on all sides argument given that Snoog is so prolific at running up to 3RR each time. Followed up by lets call it aggressive pursuit of their personal goals. I also fail to see the deeper analysis needed in this situation given the examples above from just recent weeks of a problem that has been on going for years. Short a AP2 topic ban this is the lightest step I can see going forward. Also a side note for the arguments that their reverts were justified because they felt they were right let me quote WP:EWAn editor who repeatedly restores their preferred version is edit warring, regardless of whether those edits are justifiable: "But my edits were right, so it wasn't edit warring" is no defense.PackMecEng (talk) 03:42, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support as a 1RR would rein in Snooganssnoogans' battleground approach to some extent. An enforcement of CIVIL would also be of use, per Pudeo's comment. There is no good reason for that uncollegial language. It serves only to discourage non-battleground editors from contributing to these topic areas as they will not see dealing with such behavior as a worthwhile use of their free time; this may be the purpose of the edit warring and incivility. Hrodvarsson (talk) 03:51, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support due to Snooganssnoogans constant, long-term battleground approach. Agree that he constantly gets to the 3RR limit in order to dissuade others. Does not show a collaborative approach to building the Wikipedia. XavierItzm (talk) 10:10, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose because as per usual - and this happens with both "sides" - it smacks of again trying to remove an opponent; the fact that a significant number of the support comments are from people involved in the AP area with a certain POV is telling. 171.33.201.13 (talk) 10:57, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support There is a longer pattern of tendentious "my way or no way" editing, and with the recent hostile and uncivil edit summaries, I think 1RR is justified. I already posted the incivility diffs above but here's them for easy access: [106][107][108][109][110][111][112]. Edit-warring is bad enough itself, but combining that with edit-summaries with expletives is terrible in a topic area that is already controversial enough. --Pudeo (talk) 12:41, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What do you see as the problem? Guy suggested that Snoog's editorial direction was good but the way they went about doing it was not. Let's be generous and for the moment assume that to be true. In that case we still have a clear pattern of edit warring (without crossing the 3RR line), frequent refusals to engage in talk page discussions when their edits are questions (even when pinged [[113]]) and the general civility issues [[114]]. They were tband from mass edits that were clearly not just patrolling [[115]]. They also have been frequently reported to the 3RRN. While those were seen as not a violation of 3RR since they didn't do the 4th revert, how many times do we expect editors to show up at 3RRN? All that is a problem even if we don't assume there is an issue with the content/edits they push. It's very clear that many editors are concerned This also ignores the strong bias by inserting almost exclusively negative material in Republican/conservative articles and removing similar from Democratic/left leaning articles [[116]]. When subject to a 1RR limit civility is more important since you must convince others that you are correct and seek compromise instead of bludgeoning your "preferred" version. Snoog might find that many who they think are "POV pushers" would be happy to compromise with a civil editor. Springee (talk) 14:32, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What do you see as the problem? Attempts to shoehorn an inappropriate detail, written to imply a misleading conclusion, into the lede. And then an army of the usual suspects coming out of the woodwork to silence the editor doing so, hoping they can slap enough sanctions on him to prevent any future resistance to POV-pushing. Grandpallama (talk) 19:33, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm open to considering most anything. But not that largely empty argument, especially from a relatively new account against a long-standing account that has been at the forefront of resisting POV-pushing. Grandpallama (talk) 17:48, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You accuse others of bias and POV-pushing but take on faith that snoog doesn't do the same. Also, we need to remember WP:AGF and WP:BITE. If an editor is new, an experienced editor should help them rather than attack them and drive them off. Springee (talk) 18:22, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Whom did I accuse? What do I take on faith? I've been around Wikipedia a while, and I'm relating what I've observed on articles and on the noticeboards. I observed that Snoogans fights against POV-pushing, which is generally acknowledged as a fact by the neutral editors weighing in. As for AGF, it's important, but it's also not a suicide pact when dealing with those who aren't editing in good faith, themselves. Grandpallama (talk) 20:29, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
How is one block from 3 years ago general civility issues? How is adding relevant PolitiFact ratings a bad thing? Being "frequently reported to the 3RRN" and yet not violating 3RR shows a willingness to play by the rules even on topics where tempers run high. Having a political lean, or even (gasp) a bias, is neither a crime nor a violation of Wikipedia policy. XOR'easter (talk) 16:52, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The block was one example of incivility. Others have also offered examples. Running up to the 3RR line repeatedly is not showing willingness to play by the rules. Please read wp:3RR, "The rule is not an entitlement to revert a page a specific number of times." Springee (talk) 17:03, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The civility sanction was from when I was a new editor. I called an editor who was stalking me across Wikipedia (in what an admin called a "strategy to harass" me[117]) a "sociopath". That editor, SashiRolls is actually one of the 'support' votes in this thread, and the editor has a longer list of blocks and sanctions in the last few years than any active editor in American politics. That said, the use of the word "sociopath" was of course unnecessary and unhelpful, and the civility sanction was appropriate. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:10, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Kind of you to repeat yourself without fear of being disciplined. Don't worry, if you're on 1RR in an article happenstance should bring me to, I will observe reciprocal 1RR with regard to you. I'm not looking for a leg up, just looking to keep you from going all zombie on others. I'm more attached to the "no personal attacks" sanction, but that doesn't seem like it's going to happen despite everyone shouting in the middle of the central aisle there that you should "dial it back"
As an example, may I suggest dropping "brazen" from your quiver unless you're talking about something which can be independently verified is made of brass? 🌿 SashiRolls t · c23:42, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I'm willing to extend a fair bit of goodwill to an editor who has the endurance to deal with the constant deluge of far-right POV pushers in the AP2 area. Heavens knows I found it taxing my interest in participating in Wikipedia at all because there's always an AN/I thread, a troll always gets indeffed and then tomorrow there's a new crop of trolls. Attempts to remove a check on this troll-farm because they were a bit forceful on the revert button are not going to improve Wikipedia. They will just make it more like Conservapedia. Simonm223 (talk) 14:37, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What about the reasonable, centralist editors who have to deal with a far left POV pushing editor who is unwilling to engage in talk page discussions? The fact that so many think a 1RR is a good idea says that something is wrong. Springee (talk) 14:54, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt a whataboutist straw man is going to do much beyond get all the usual suspects who want free reign to smear anybody left of Reagan on Wikipedia riled up about how they're all "classical liberals" or some such nonsense. Simonm223 (talk) 19:10, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support- Snoogans has been gaming the system for years with the 3RR rule. What he is calling patrolling pages is actually just ensuring his preferred version of the page stays intact.If there is any actual vandalism on a page, I am confident that one of the thousands of other editors on wikipedia not named SnoogansSnoogans will catch it. Snoogans is probably one of the most biased editors on wikipedia and makes no secret about it. In fact he is proud of it, don't take my word for it, just look at his user page. From the point of view of anyone outside wikipedia, Snoogans appears to be on a mission to add negative information to BLP articles of persons with a certain point to view (presumably one that conflicts with his own personal views). Enforcing the 1RR will take away one of the tools that Snoogans uses to push his own POV into articles. Although I am supporting this restriction, I don't think it goes far enough. I would actually be in favor of a topic ban.--Rusf10 (talk) 15:38, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Rusf10, just above. Snoogans’ user page alone should be enough for any editor here to support not only a 1RR but a topic ban in AP2. This is a proud repeat violator of WP:BATTLEGROUND and should be dealt with as such per established policy. Jusdafax (talk) 16:28, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the home page I think that is a violation of WP:POLIMIC. A number of those quotes are to Wikipedia talk pages. Previous, similar lists have been removed. Springee (talk) 16:48, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is my userpage[118]. It shows clearly what it entails to edit and patrol on the topics of conspiracy theories, extremism and fringe rhetoric in American politics. It also sheds light on why the overwhelming majority of 'support' votes here are right-wing POV editors (and the occasional far-left editor - because I also fix bad editing from the left) whom I have butted heads with in the past. That you want to impose a ban on me from editing in American politics because far-left and far-right conspiracy theorists hate what I'm doing and because they seek to doxx and harass me says a lot about you. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:53, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Your home page list is a violation of WP:POLEMIC, "Users should generally not maintain in public view negative information related to others without very good reason. Negative evidence, laundry lists of wrongs, collations of diffs and criticisms related to problems, etc., should be removed, blanked, or kept privately (i.e., not on the wiki) if they will not be imminently used, and the same once no longer needed." Springee (talk) 17:03, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Snoog's statement just above, "... the overwhelming majority of 'support' votes here are right-wing POV editors ...", is an example of that battleground behavior and mentality that everyone's talking about. – Levivich17:07, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I voted in favor of 1RR, but Snoogans has a right to defend themselves when the community is proposing some restriction on their editing. -Darouet (talk) 19:15, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I highly doubt that: I see a number of editors who've endorsed above, myself included, who have tended to edit on the "left" side of the American left-right political divide. -Darouet (talk) 20:07, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I guess there are a number of voters here that rarely edit political articles (like me). This statement and some others shows Snoo's WP:1AM attitude that there is no place for. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 05:00, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Jtbobwaysf: - I am an editor in the AP2 topic are. While not everyone supporting is right-wing, in my view, pretty much all of the prominent right-wing AP2 editors are here supporting this. starship.paint (talk)07:52, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't even know what AP2 was today until I googled it and realized this was American Politics. Not my cup of tea to edit with really pushy editors, I mostly stayed in the in other eclectic areas of the wikispace. But I recognize the laws of physics and if Snoos has pushed on people across a wide range of articles eventually he will feel push back. Wikipedia has a big problem with editors driving out weekend editors, and it is editors like Snoos that do that. Certainly he can find a way to edit cooperatively in any area. I was also surprised by the way that the admins showed up on the Assange page and started threatening a POV editor (who had opposite POV as Snoos). It just struck me as a overreaction, and thus it drew my attention. Wikipedia is about shining light on things until the truth is revealed, and in this case this editor and the behavior around him certainly attracted a lot of attention and therefore, there must be an issue that needs examination (rather it is this particular editor, policy, or both). Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:03, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is about shining light on things until the truth is revealed This is absolutely not what Wikipedia is about, and is a prime example of the attempted railroading of Snoogans that is occurring here; the conclusions you're reaching also show you're not very familiar with the players or environment of AP2. Grandpallama (talk) 15:04, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Railroading is not what is happening. The proposal isn't tban from 2AP. A 1RR limit shouldn't be a problem if the changes Snoog is pushing are neutral and reasonable. The repeated problem is that Snoog frequently refuses to engaged in discussions with those who object to snoog's reversions or even snoog's content pushes. There is no reason why so many of snoog's content disputes go to 3RR before they come to the talk page. A constant refrain here is that isn't just those on one side of the divide trying to silence the other side. That is effectively saying that those editors are all acting in bad faith and ignores that they might have legitimate grievances. I don't agree when Guy says snoog is "being right" but Guy is correct with the "in the wrong way part" The fact that snoog is working "in the wrong way" is the problem. Why would more conservative editors likely object more, well look where snoog is directing their efforts, the recipients of snoog's battleground behaviors and aspersions are more likely to be on the other side. After looking at snoog's decided to follow their lead and do a web search. This link was interesting [[119]]. So of ~500 BLP snoog was involved with, they added information effectively saying the BLP subject made a false or true claim to a bit over 200 articles. For Republican articles it was 208 "false" 0 true. For Democrats it was 3 for each. With that sort of bias of interest it's not surprising that more right leaning editors would have issues with snoog's behavior vs those on the left. Again, "in the wrong way" is still "wrong". A 1RR restriction doesn't block snoog, it just forces them to spend more time discussing and reaching consensus vs driving other editors away. Springee (talk) 15:34, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"Citing" a thread from a forum made up of a small coterie of banned and otherwise disgruntled users is not particularly persuasive of anything. I mean, I suppose it's better than citing a thread from the "WikiInAction" subreddit that's literally run by Nazis and anti-Semites, but only just. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 15:41, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That is an evasive reply. There are two possibilities here, 1: the material presented in the thread is wrong and thus we can dismiss it. 2: the material presented is correct. If the material is correct it certainly indicates why one side vs the other is more likely to have been the subject of Snoog's civility issues. Springee (talk) 16:41, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This link was interesting [[120]]. So of ~500 BLP snoog was involved with, they added information effectively saying the BLP subject made a false or true claim to a bit over 200 articles. For Republican articles it was 208 "false" 0 true. For Democrats it was 3 for each. A goofily fallacious argument to make, and an example of the railroading I'm talking about. Snoogans inserted properly-sourced material into articles about right-wing BLPs, and that means that he should have 1RR, because he isn't doing the same on left-wing figures? We don't put restrictions on people just because we don't like their edits, unless their edits violate policy. Really, this entire effort is tiresome and wholly transparent. Grandpallama (talk) 17:56, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, you are wrong. It's not an air tight argument but is it really reasonable to assume that snoog is unbiased and Republican BLP subjects are actually making false claims at a ratio of 70:1. You also jumped to the conclusion that the material was RS or more specifically DUE and added in compliance with NPOV. Snoog's chosen addition to Mark Levin appears to fail that bar. We don't put restrictions on people just because we don't like their edits, unless their edits violate policy. Well you are correct but your statement doesn't match the facts on the ground. Snoog does violate policy (CIVIL, NPOV and edit warring). They are smart enough to make sure no single edit/revert war crosses the line but that doesn't mean the cumulative impact isn't problematic. Sorry, there are too many editors complaining and citing examples to just say this is a few editors who had their POV-pushing content reversed. Springee (talk) 18:22, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's clearly not an airtight argument, because it's not even a good argument. Snoogans can be incredibly biased. Editors aren't required to be NPOV--their edits are. You also didn't provide a diff (to me, at least) regarding Mark Levin, but a diff to an off-wiki site where the usual suspects are bemoaning the fact that they can't POV-push to their heart's content. Snoogans may occasionally have violated CIVIL, but 1RR doesn't make any sense in response to that. An argument is being made, poorly, for NPOV, but that argument "doesn't match the facts on the ground." You may be able to make a case for edit warring, but more neutral editors need to weigh in and agree with that, and from my read, there is far from consensus that 1RR is appropriate or is going to be enacted. The number of newer editors popping out of the ether to declare their support for such a sanction is just one of a few red flags at play here. Grandpallama (talk) 20:25, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
snoog is biased. That isn't against the rules. However, it's clear that many of their edits are not viewed by the wider community as improvements and often they are simply an effort to add negative content to articles regardless of whether the content is DUE. That isn't good editing. Neither is biting those who disagree. Look at snoog's 13:22, 6 November 2019 comment and the replies here [[121]]. The RfC is clearly against snoog's preferred content. Notice snoog's 30 Oct edit [[122]]. snoog is very certain that their preferred edit is correct yet the later RfC shows their judgement is clearly off. It's possible @Mr Ernie: is a right-wing POV pusher. Or perhaps they are concerned with things like BLP and impartial tone. Springee (talk) 20:56, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Snoogans made an edit, properly sourced. It was reverted. Snoogans took it to the talkpage, where its inclusion was rejected by consensus; Snoogans didn't attempt to reinsert it. I don't know what you think you're proving, other than that Snoogans follows policy. We don't penalize people for following policy, and we don't put 1RR restrictions on people just because we don't like their edits, which is what I said at the very beginning of my comments. Continuing to bludgeon those who are disagreeing with the lack of soundness of this proposal, when you are the proposer, is increasingly problematic. Grandpallama (talk) 21:19, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
On the talk page where their judgement has been shown to be clearly wrong. Look, you are really missing the big picture here. The issue isn't that snoog has a POV though that does have a part in the issue. The issue is that snoog edit wars, doesn't follow CIVIL rules and has lots of problematic editing behavior. Limiting them to 1RR is a clean way to avoid many of the complaints here (and I'm sure there are many more examples) while still allowing them to contribute. Just because you haven't been subject to their battleground behavior doesn't mean others are making it up. Perhaps it's just a deep state, Ukrainian ploy to get all these editors to complain about snoog. Springee (talk) 21:26, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support per diffs above and Red Rock Canyon's comment: "everyone who edits American politics has experienced Snoog's edit-warring or battleground behavior. This is a consistent problem". This edit by Springee warning Snooganssnoogans to stop "wp:bludgeon those who don't support your POV" is further evedince. UberVegan🌾19:22, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support absolutely. please don't accuse me of being a right-wing POV editor, neither am I an occasional far-left editor. User Snooganssnoogans is an edit warrior that needs restrictions.Govindaharihari (talk) 19:36, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support Snoogans's statement that "the overwhelming majority of 'support' votes here are right-wing POV editors (and the occasional far-left editor - because I also fix bad editing from the left)" is an admission of his own ideological bias. Were he authentically a neutral editor then he would receive equal opposition from both sides. JBlackCoffee52 (talk) 20:41, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Have you read that page? Because your odd interpretation of it suggests you need to revisit it. Having a bias doesn't preclude one from editing certain pages unless their bias results in POV-pushing. Snoogans is disliked by a number of editors commenting here largely because he pushes against the POV-pushing that occurs on AP2 articles. Grandpallama (talk) 15:04, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's a case of false balance. The simple fact is that when I add content that may reflect poorly on left-leaning figures and causes, there isn't a slew of editors who come out and claim that high-quality RS are unreliable (multiple editors voting 'support' in this thread do so), that peer-reviewed science is bunk, and promote whatever conspiracy theories that are popular on the left. I can add research showing that voter ID laws don't appear to have any negative impact (contrary to what Democrats say)[123] and that immigration can have adverse impacts (which goes against Democratic talking points)[124][125] without any pushback, but if I add peer-reviewed research on the positive effects of immigration and research that suggests adverse impacts of voter ID laws, then you have to deal with a cavalcade of right-wing editors who dispute the content. I mean, the editor who started the call for 1RR, Springee, literally removed RfC consensus content on multiple occasions which was based on multiple peer-reviewed studies and expert content about how a major publication engaged in climate change denial.[126][127][128][129][130]. One of the editors voting 'support' in this thread, MrThunderbolt1000T, just yesterday fought to remove text sourced to a state-of-the-art literature review by the National Academy of Sciences on Concealed carry in the United States, because apparently he personally knows the literature better.[131] Those are illustrative examples from just the last few days. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:44, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Here we go again with "state of the art," as usual. Narcissistic charm and childish hostility. You're not the judge of credibility court, bud. You're just proving the accusations of WP:BATTLEGROUND. You accuse me of "brazen falsehoods," yet you act like saying "state of the art" makes your favored paper the right paper. Your conduct is ridiculous and narcissistic. --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 01:36, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So why are you making false accusations against me? You have repeatedly, falsely claimed that I removed RfC material on multiple occasions but it was removed only once and that was before I was aware that it was added after a RfC. Rather than discussing the issue civilly you went right into actuations. I've explained why your claim is false here [[
Comment At least half a dozen of the "Supports" are from new-ish editors, at least one of which is a very obvious sock, and a couple more are from editors with long block logs in this area. I don't think this is something that ANI should be looking at. Black Kite (talk)21:11, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
^This. I suggest editors weigh this comment before casting a vote, and before closing. One account also appears to be an SPA with a strong POV in the topic area, but then again, they’re relatively new, like several others. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 23:01, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is just their way of hand waving BS. Yes everyone supporting this must be an evil so and so. You notice their only opposition to it boils down to "I like what they do". So luckily that kind of argument holds no water policy wise and is easily ignored. What matters is the clear and demonstrated pattern of edit warring, disruption, and battle ground behavior that needs to be corrected. PackMecEng (talk) 00:07, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t know what you’re talking about PacMecEng. I certainly never said anyone was “evil”, nor implied it. Or was this a comment on something else? If you aren’t speaking to me, I’m not sure I’ve been given you any cause for anything but good faith. I try to be fair and evaluate edits based on merit and adherence to policy. As far as i know, the only interaction I’ve been ever had with you, as I recall, was thanking you for an edit. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 02:40, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Levivich, I’m not sure if you weren’t addressing me, but I assume from the context you were. I certainly didn’t mean you. That should be obvious. I meant MrThunderbolt1000T. You’re obviously not a new user, so I don’t get why you’d lump yourself in that statement, nor do I get the aggression. You’re an editor in good standing, and you know I’ve appreciate your work here. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 02:40, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I run an SPA with a strong POV? That couldn't be farther from the truth. If you bothered to take a look at my contributions before making such a baseless claim, you'd see that most of my edits are focused on articles outside of AP2. The majority are grammatical fixes, not even ‘’’remotely’’’ political or capable of exhibiting POV. The two times I've had content disputes with Snoogans, I was pushing a completely neutral and fair representation of the facts. If you're going to accuse me of having a “strong POV” and having an SPA, then Snoogans should be much more of a concern to you. Me listing my political opinions isn't exhibiting a POV-pushing attitude, or being an SPA: it's literally *just stating my beliefs.* Oh, and no, I'm not “new.” I've had a Wikipedia account for four years. If I remember correctly, my first edit was to a hurricane-related article, and I don't just edit articles about hurricanes. --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 19:04, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry Symmachus Auxiliarus, that wasn't really directed at you and I didn't mean to come off as aggressive. Going back to BK's point (and other comments similar to it), even if there are half a dozen editors who are new or whose !votes should otherwise be discounted, that still leaves over a dozen editors in support. It's frustrating to see editors dismiss, for example, my concerns, because of how they feel about other editors who share my concerns. That doesn't make much sense, you know? – Levivich05:20, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
On a similar note, there's an oppose !vote from an IP address with no edits besides vandalism, using the phrase "as per usual" and claiming knowledge of the AP area. Hrodvarsson (talk) 05:29, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Looking at what started this, no, this should not result in a sanction. Snoog is the type of editor who is usually right but can be rash in the course of being right. We need editors familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines to be active on challenging articles like this, even when it makes them a target for, say SPAs, like is happening here. — Rhododendritestalk \\ 22:37, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I can't help but suspect that the amount of voting here has more to do with Snooganssnoogans' prolific editing rather than their actual level of disruption. They occasionally revert too readily (which is true of a lot of us) but they've been responsive to criticism and have shown improvements since I first interacted with them, and they've remain pretty restrained in the face of a fair bit of undeserved provocation. I don't see anything here that can't be handled with a gentle caution to dial it back a bit on the reverts and try to write for the enemy a bit more. Nblundtalk23:26, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This editor just followed me here from the talk page of a right-wing pundit where this editor is advocating that we whitewash RS content about an anti-transgender speech that the far-right pundit held.[132]Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:36, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support 1RR if not outright topic ban for Snooganssnoogans. This is not his first proverbial rodeo in this contentious area. Normally this should warrant AE topic ban of proportionate duration rather than drama boards but here we are. Their disruption exceeds contribution to this topic. ConstantPlancks (talk) 05:08, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Quite the inaccurate aspersion as the sources weren't written when I edited that article. Also an interesting definition of edit-warring considering your behaviour being discussed here. But continue ConstantPlancks (talk) 05:33, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - This hodgepodge of context-free diffs seems very weak. As for calling bullshit "bullshit", yes, that's appropriate. Sometimes bullshit should be identified as bullshit. Treating this as automatically "battleground" is completely unpersuasive. Grayfell (talk) 06:40, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Nblund and Aquillion. In addition, obviously not everyone supporting is right-wing, just that it seems that pretty much every (prominent) right-wing AP2 editor is here supporting (yes, some left-wing AP2 editors are here opposing, but fewer, it seems - and I might as well say I lean left on some areas). starship.paint (talk)07:57, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose A unilateral sanction against Snoogans isn't the solution here - maybe 1RR needs to be implemented for all editors in AP2.-- P-K3 (talk) 13:24, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. An insufficient justification for this unilateral sanction. Also, she/he is a very reasonable contributor - based on my experience of interaction with them. 1RR for the page is sufficent. My very best wishes (talk) 16:47, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support 1RR limit on Snooganssnoogans, based on my experience with this editor at Casualties of the Iraq War. I have described these experiences in detail above. Snoogans makes far too much use of the "Undo" button, often ignoring BRD. A 1RR limit would allow Snoogans to continue editing, but curtail this particular behavioral problem. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:52, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Regardless of whether you think Snoogan is justified in his battleground tactics, bear in mind that Snoogan's own position is: "As someone who patrols hundreds (if not thousands) of controversial American politics pages (which are rife with bad edits), it would force me to dedicate countless hours to starting talk page discussions and keeping tabs of dozens of on-going disputes without any effective way of ensuring a stable status quo version of the article" [[133]] Edit warring is not a substitute for spending time on talk pages. 3RR is not an entitlement or a license to edit war. This is true for anyone of any political bent, and this behavior is not OK. It's not excusable even if you agree with Snoogan's viewpoint. The imposition of a 1RR rule is enforcement of Wikipedia's most basic policies, and would encourage Snoogan to talk with other editors to reach consensus, rather than just revert them all the time. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧20:37, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
^This editor has already voted and commented in this thread. I can't get over the nerve that this editor has in lecturing me about edit-warring when the same editor violated 1RR and consensus-required on the William Barr page to add misleading content[134][135]. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 02:33, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And then I opened an RfC, and all outside editors agreed with my proposed edit, and you were the only Oppose. Again, further demonstrating that you edit war in order to keep your WP:OWN version of the article in place even when others disagree with it. "But I'm right" is not a justification for edit warring. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧14:19, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As was already pointed out, the version that was approved in the RfC is different than the version which you tried to edit-war into the article. That you feel the need to be dishonest about this is illustrative about why editing in American Politics is so dysfunctional. Here are the diffs.[136][137][138]Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:34, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I was hardly "edit warring" but my point is that you were literally the only person who was against my edit in the RfC. So please don't claim that you were doing anything other than trying to WP:OWN the article. But I suppose this is all a moot point as an admin has justifiably placed a 1RR restriction upon you. Perhaps now you'll discuss on talk pages instead of edit warring. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧14:40, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(1) the page was covered by 1RR and consensus-required, which you blatantly violated. Of course, when you edit war it can't be "edit-warring"... (2) You're intentionally conflating the text in the RfC with a different text that you were edit-warring into the article. The misleading text that you were edit-warring into the article was opposed by three editors on the talk page[139], whereas the different text that was ultimately approved[140] in a RfC was approved near-unanimously. The need to tell fibs about this does not reflect well on you. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:52, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
^I have a history with this editor on the Illegal immigration to the United States page where this user edit-warred debunked anti-immigrant propaganda and poorly sourced text into the article[141][142][143], as well as removed the best possible academic research on the subject (a recently published 642-page state-of-the-art literature review by the National Academy of Sciences[144]) with a false edit summary just because it failed to portray illegal immigrants in a horrible light.[145] If 1RR had been in place for me at the time, this editor might have succeeded in edit-warring the debunked anti-immigration propaganda into the article, and would have been able to remove a National Academy of Sciences report (which are often considered the gold standard lit reviews) from Wikipedia. That's relevant context. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:18, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The edit in question begins with A report released by the United States Department of Justice and United States Department of Homeland Security]]. He decided that the official government reports on the situation were not to be trusted, nor any reliable sources that mentioned them or anything else he disagreed with, and edit warred and argued nonstop until I and others just gave up trying to deal with him. I still believe that mentioning what the American government says on the matter is important. I'd like more people to just look at this [146] and tell me if there is a problem with Snooganssnoogans editing and how he represents what's going on. DreamFocus13:29, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Multiple fact-checkers had debunked the anti-immigrant propaganda that you added to the article, as I explained to you in detail on the talk page[147]. However, even after you were notified that you misused a primary source, and fact-checkers and RS such as PolitiFact,[148][149] NY Times[150], and FactCheck.Org[151][152] had debunked it, you still insisted that it belonged in the article. In short, you repeatedly edit-warred debunked anti-immigrant propaganda into the article, and then removed the gold standard literature review on the subject. If 1RR had been in place for me, you would have gotten away with it, and the encyclopedia would have been worse off. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:45, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, although I have to say I'm torn. On the one hand, Snoog is a dedicated and productive patroller in a difficult area, and I really think his tendency to revert isn't an expression of battleground mentality, but of a desire to see articles reflect consensus as he understands it. The fact he doesn't violate 3RR shows he knows how to color inside the lines, and when the consensus is against him, he knows how to let it go and move on. On the other hand, it'd be extremely funny to see a bunch of the people who engaged in edit wars with him successfully get him sanctioned for edit warring. The lack of self-awareness is just... *chef's kiss* peak AN/I. In all seriousness, I endorse Aquillion's rationale. If there's a problem in AP2, this is not the solution. —Rutebega (talk) 06:15, 15 November 2019 (UTC
Pudeo, but he's not haranguing the talk page (at least from what I've seen), so you could call that an effective coping strategy. If you think litigating userpage guidelines is a good use of your time, be my guest, but it doesn't interest me in the slightest. —Rutebega (talk) 15:55, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note about DS restriction, First, apologies: I did not intend to interfere with this still-ongoing community process. I crafted the unilateral sanction against Snoogans when I believed this thread had been closed with no consensus. Second: I have now revoked the sanctions based on the (nonbinding/informal) commitment Snoogans made here. While I obviously think that's good enough to merit a second chance, I don't want to interfere any more with this process other than to state what I did. (translated: @Closer, don't count this as a vote.) ~Awilley (talk)16:15, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's essentially the same rationale Snoogans gave for edit-warring at Casualties of the Iraq War: "Because I cannot spend the rest of my life dealing with this BS" ([153]). "Dealing with this BS" would have consisted of replying to three veteran editors who had agreed on a compromise text. Snoogans argues above that they need the power to frequently revert in order to deal with vandals, SPAs and POV-pushers, but in the example I'm giving here, Snoogans was undoing a compromise agreed on by three longstanding editors. Snoogans couldn't be bothered to argue against the other editors, but chose simply to hit the revert button. This is the behavior that needs to be reined in. -Thucydides411 (talk) 13:15, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(1) when I add new content (or alter existing content) and it gets reverted by a regular editor, I will start a talk page discussion and wait a few days before making the first restoration. If it gets reverted again after I restore it, I will not restore it again, unless it gets support in a RfC or through external dispute resolution. (2) when a regular editor removes or alters long-standing text, I revert this user once. If the user restores the content again, I start a talk page discussion (even if the other editor is violating BRD) and will wait a few days before restoring the status quo version. If the other editor re-adds the content into the article at that point, I start a RfC about the content, but I'm allowed to make sure that the status quo version is maintained until the new content gets approved in the RfC. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 04:31, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
It's pretty clear that Snooganssnoogans has a long list of enemies, and I'm sure they will be monitoring whether Snooganssnoogans violates their commitments above, and WP:AE can deal with it accordingly. Snooganssnoogans can hardly complain for being sanctioned if they were found to have strayed from their own self-proposed commitments. starship.paint (talk)15:00, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The arrogance of an editor and the sad state of policy at wikipedia such that an editor makes a special commitment to follow wikipedia policy (that we are all bound to follow). If we dont follow the posted rules, we get penalized. Consequences are the bedrock of rules enforcement. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 22:21, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
^Accusations of arrogance coming from an editor who edit-warred contested content into the lead of a BLP on multiple occasions despite reverts from two editors and vociferous objections from multiple editors on the talk page (and now there's a RfC that is overwhelmingly against the content that this editor was edit-warring into the lede). If we dont follow the posted rules, we get penalized. What do you propose should be your punishment for edit-warring? I can't get over just shameless and hypocritical some of these comments are. Where is your sense of awareness? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:31, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - this is way over the top and there's no basis for it. Controversial area basically over run with sock puppets and WP:TEND and you got a problem with a couple frustrated edit summaries? There's literally at least two dozen editors who are in front of Snoogans^2 in the "should be sanctioned" que. Some of them commenting here. Volunteer Marek 02:25, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support, per above comments and diffs and for example Hillary Clinton said without real evidences that Tulsi Gabbard is a Russian asset,[155] yet Snooganssnoogans removed the word "without evidence" saying it violates BLP (Hillary Clinton's biography) and also he said "Only without evidence if your head is in the sand: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/us/politics/tulsi-gabbard.html" totally violating BLP by making an original research and a provocative comment in the edit summary, "if your head is in the sand". There is also this [156].
Also saying that those who vote support are right-wing editors, well, I am probably what you call a left-wing yet I am voting support so what you said is just rubbish.
I want also to note that ever since the Democrats lost the elections to Trump, they have been accusing Russia for their lost. This behavior of the democrats led to increase of Russophobia among Americans which effectively made the English wikipedia much more Russophobic because most editors are Americans. This type of hate should not be allowed in Wikipedia and Wikipedia should remain neutral.--SharabSalam (talk) 10:29, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I rarely post here, but I feel like this comment is really inappropriate. I know things can get heated but Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Comments on the state of russophobia in the wake of the election are unrelated to the discussion at hand, and at least I feel, kind of disruptive. Darthkayak (talk) 20:54, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is despite the fact that policy requires that relevant but controversial material in the lead of a WP:BLP not be suppressed, and it is not uncommon that poor health or alleged torture under detainment be noted in biographies. Again, more eyes at the article and participation in the RfC would be helpful there. -Darouet (talk) 16:56, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As always, I strongly support more eyes at more pages (no one has started more RfCs in Am Politics editing than me in the last few years). I have no doubt at all that the community will agree with me (and the majority on the article talk page) that one opinion suggesting that the British authorities are harming or trying to kill Assange is not ledeworthy. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:24, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
At a glance, most of those sources don't even mention the part of his statements that is disputed in the lead (that his life is at risk), and even the ones that do do so in a context that has different implications than the disputed lead wording, ie. the lead wording makes it sound like he should be killed, whereas the emphasis of those sources is on psychological trauma and the fact that he is sick. --Aquillion (talk) 22:40, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In fairness, when an expert on torture says "his life is at risk", we don't suppose he's talking about the dangers of high cholesterol. If a cardiologist says "his life is at risk", we don't suppose he's talking about being tortured to death. – Levivich05:30, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I applied twice, they wouldn't let me in. They also threw me out a few times–of the Yard. So I spent a lot of time in The Pit. That's gone, though, so now I spend my time on Wikipedia. – Levivich16:47, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
But that's just jumping to conclusions. I now understand why there was such a ruckus about the text, but I think that just proves that many editors jump to conclusions. I think your examples prove the opposite to what you intend. A cardiologist is fully entitled to express opinions on any number of issues; it doesn't have to be confined to affairs of the heart. This is batshit crazy!!!--Jack Upland (talk) 08:42, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
True, but if he says someone is in danger of death it is reasonable to assume he is talking about his area of expertise. Thus wording has to be chosen to ensure no such conclusion can be drawn.Slatersteven (talk) 11:24, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is even trickier because The UN special rapporteur and "expert" on torture has, in the very same OHCHR press release, reported that Assange shows signs of psychological torture [157]:
The Special Rapporteur and his medical team visited the imprisoned Wikileaks founder in May and reported that he showed “all the symptoms typical for prolonged exposure to psychological torture” and demanded immediate measures for the protection of his health and dignity.
Despite what they would like to think, holders of Harvard graduate and professional degrees might be called "Harvard-trained", but they're not "Harvard-educated". That's for Harvard College graduates only. Sorry, John Yoo. (That still leaves Jared Kushner, but every school has its embarrassments – you can lead a horticulture but you can't make him think.) EEng21:51, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Exactly why is the article on Julian Assange considered part of American politics? Yes, he's been charged in the USA, but that's it. Is it just the whim of an admin???--Jack Upland (talk) 01:00, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I find your questions refreshing. Yes, Julian Assange is charged with espionage for leaking classified military and diplomatic documents, but thats not it: he also leaked Hillary Clinton's emails, which he got from the Russians, who hacked a US political candidate's computer to get them, and then leaked them through Assange in order to influence a presidential election. Allegedly. – Levivich01:23, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is like Six Degrees of Kevin Spacey! Any article can be linked with American politics. The Assange page can also be linked to Eastern Europe!!!--Jack Upland (talk) 01:58, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Even prior to the Podesta leaks, most of Wikileaks most prominent document dumps were related to US politics. The problems that plague AP2 are obviously present on that page, so the DS seems pretty obviousNblundtalk02:37, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So Assange is an Australian who founded an Iceland-based organisation and went into the Ecuadorian embassy to escape charges in Sweden. But, yeah, it's all about the USA!!! That's not obvious; it's batshit crazy!!!--Jack Upland (talk) 03:12, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Put all those elements in a circle around Assange and you can draw a direct link from him to any of them. That's how it works. He was an important link in the Trump/Russian interference in the American elections. -- BullRangifer (talk) 03:39, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So I was right. It is Six Degrees of Kevin Spacey. Admins are highly intelligent and could make a link between American politics and almost any article. So it is just the whim of the admin.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:48, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'd call it common sense - it's hard to argue that Assange doesn't fall into the category of "closely related people". The US is mentioned in all 4 lead paragraphs of his article, starting with "After the 2010 leaks, the United States government launched a criminal investigation into WikiLeaks. Doug Wellertalk09:17, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
While I think it's obvious that Assange is related to US politics, I do think that this illustrates why it's infeasible to just apply an automatic 1RR to the entire AP2 topic area - there's inevitably going to be some confusion about what articles fall under AP2, especially given that many people don't follow all the details of American politics; even a non-AP2-related article could suddenly have a section or paragraph that clearly relates to AP2 without warning. 1RR restrictions do absolutely require the template on the page to let people know it applies there, otherwise it's going to be a total mess. --Aquillion (talk) 13:48, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
But this discussion is about whether to establish a noticeboard, and is nothing to do with Julian Assange or 1RR restrictions (or, for that matter, any particular editor). Let's put comments in the relevant discussion, not sidetrack discussions about other issues. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:57, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Snoogansnoogan "Some_of_my_endorsements" list
Since this was mentioned by another editor I think it would be worth asking. Is Snoogansnoogan's "Some_of_my_endorsements" list [[159]] a violation of WP:POLEMIC?
The list contains a large number of quotes with links to their sources. A number of those sources are Wikipedia talk page discussions and thus quotes from other editors presented without their original context. Per POLEMIC, "Users should generally not maintain in public view negative information related to others without very good reason. Negative evidence, laundry lists of wrongs, collations of diffs and criticisms related to problems, etc., should be removed, blanked, or kept privately (i.e., not on the wiki) if they will not be imminently used, and the same once no longer needed.". The full list including the external quotes probably violates "Very divisive or offensive material not related to encyclopedia editing" since the material is about reactions to Snoog's edits, not a list of things to do or helpful links. In particular keeping a list of people you have ticked off comes across as petty rather than CIVIL. Some of this is especially troubling where Snoog is involved with a BLP. For example Mark Levin's page where Snoog takes pride in the BLP's subject's response to their edits[[160]]. Even if Snoog's edits are good for Wikipedia on the whole, this list seems petty, doesn't benefit Wikipedia on the whole and further endorses the view that Snoog looks at issues with a BATTLEGROUND POV. Springee (talk) 17:18, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
On the whole, no. Off-wiki reactions to Snoog's edits are indeed related to encyclopedia editing and are not negative information related to others. Records of on-wiki disputes can, in principle, be useful references, particularly for an editor who works on tumultuous topics. XOR'easter (talk) 17:36, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Because they're links. They point to the context from which they were taken. And so they provide a record of arguments past which might potentially be relevant for arguments in the future. XOR'easter (talk) 17:44, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"Because they're links" has not been a sufficient explanation in the past. You are really stretching to say these are "arguments" that might be useful in the future. Springee (talk) 17:52, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
How is it a stretch to say that it's in principle not a bad idea to record when people have been upset with you? Perhaps throwing on-wiki disputes in the same bucket with angry Reddit threads is in dubious taste, but that intensity of line-by-line policing of somebody's user page is itself a kind of battleground mentality that I would rather avoid. XOR'easter (talk) 17:56, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think the key point in WP:POLEMIC would be "Users should generally not maintain in public view negative information related to others without very good reason." A list of off-wiki criticisms directed against the user themselves isn't generally "related to others" in the sense meant there, I think - the list doesn't, for the most part, place much emphasis on the source of the criticisms unless they're a major news outlet or public figure; the focus is primarily on Snoog in the sense of "this is what I deal with" rather than being a WP:POLEMIC about others. And, beyond that, it does serve an important editorial purpose in establishing that Snooganssnoogans has been the target of sustained off-wiki campaigning, which matters when discussing controversies related to them - eg. if a bunch of editors (especially new editors or ones with few prior interactions with them) start repeating criticisms covered in those links without prompting, it establishes that that may not be organic. I feel it is reasonable for Snooganssnoogans to want to have those highlighted so people know they may be a factor - and I say this as someone who has been targeted by some of those outlets myself (in fact, I think I'm named in one or two of the links there; the stuff I'm describing briefly happened to me.) For me it mostly evaporated quickly because I am comparatively boring, but I can definitely see how, if it continued in a sustained manner like Snooganssnoogans seems to have had to deal with, it would be useful to have a list that I can direct people to in order to give them context. Obviously, again, most of the people commenting here aren't like that - almost everyone here has interacted with the user extensively, aside from maybe the "poop poop poop" IP. But in general that random weirdness is the sort of thing that targeted off-wiki criticism causes, and when it does happen it's useful to be able to have a list you can point to to say "oh, yeah, they may be here because of that." And making it visible reduces the need to constantly explain. --Aquillion (talk) 18:30, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I might be more sympathetic with that view if Snoog didn't take such a battleground approach to disagreements. I'm curious how many times they insulted or violated CIVIL in reply to me over the years. Even if we disagree that isn't acceptable. Also, you talk about what Snoog has dealt with, what about what they are delivering? Consider the Mark Levin example. Snoog's RfC clearly is not supporting what they want to do with the article. Why should we believe that Levin's criticism isn't valid? Can we assume Snoog would respect NPOV after being mentioned by Levin? More to the point, since this is a list, how does it not violate, "Users should generally not maintain in public view negative information related to others without very good reason. Negative evidence, laundry lists of wrongs, collations of diffs and criticisms related to problems, etc., should be removed, blanked, or kept privately (i.e., not on the wiki) if they will not be imminently used, and the same once no longer needed."? Springee (talk) 18:46, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep because it's plainly hilarious and humor is good for everyone here. On a more serious note we need to give people latitude on their user pages. Add: lastly, it's a list of clear personal attacks that Snoogans has experienced... I can't see how listing those harms others. -Darouet (talk) 19:12, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - At first I wasn't sure if the list itself was the problem. The problem is what the list represents. The fact that Snoogans maintains such a list tells you the purpose of his editing. It is done in a way to attract as much negative attention as possible. Snoogans would have you believe that everyone who criticizes him is just a "right-wing extremist", but many of the criticisms documented on the user page are completely legitimate. Like when Snoogans nominated the Peter Strzok article for deletion [161]. Strzok clearly met notability requirements, but Snoogans nominated the article anyway. Everyone should take a closer look at the list though because its not only off-wiki criticism, some of it is on-wiki. Even more problematic is that it includes quotes that admins have since redacted (which you can see on the user page, I'm not repeating any of this here, just providing links). For example, [162] & [163]. After a closer look at the extensive divisive and inappropriate content in the list, I have come to the conclusion that it needs to be removed, but even its removal will not change the underlying behavior.--Rusf10 (talk) 00:40, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Because it is just more evidence that Snoogans revels in incivility, battleground behavior, and bullying. Clearly, many editors have an issue with this editor. If there is an editor who deserves sanctions, it is Snoogans. GlassBones (talk) 03:01, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Let me get this straight: Snoogans makes note of vitriol and attacks directed at him/her by other people, and to you that means that he/she is the one who "revels in incivility, battleground behavior, and bullying"? Doesn't pass the laugh test. And please immediately disclose whether you have edited under another account or IP. I see that you have something like 30 edits under this account, of which the vast majority are following around Snoogans, trying to get him/her sanctioned, or promoting Biden-related fringe notions. We weren't born yesterday, and this project does not allow hounding. Neutralitytalk17:21, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"please immediately disclose whether you have edited under another account or IP" is not a proper question to ask anyone. People are allowed to edit as an IP and then create an account, to abandon one account for another, even to have a WP:CLEANSTART. They don't have to answer demands to self-identify. However, in this case, GlassBones has already made a voluntary disclosure, a couple of threads below. At the very least, read the whole thread before making accusatory demands of people. – Levivich18:41, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
WP:CLEANSTART states that it is "not a "license to resume editing in areas under heightened scrutiny" but "is intended for users who wish to move on to new areas having learned from the past, or who wish to set aside old disputes and poor conduct." Under GlassBones' disclosed prior account (BattleshipGray), he/she repeatedly clashed with Snoogs and multiple others in this topic area. All of this is just about the polar opposite to a clean start. Neutralitytalk20:33, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I've seen far more polemic user pages kept on the grounds that they weren't really hurting anyone. This honestly just seems petty at this point. Simonm223 (talk) 14:56, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No policy violation here, and wrong forum anyway. First of all, Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion is the proper forum. Second of all, some of the statements here are incomprehensible. Snoogans has made note of the vitriol directed at him/her by other people. Not vice versa. Somehow, we are supposed to think that this is a strike against Snoogans? The clear fact of the matter is that Snoogans has been targeted and disparaged by others, on- and off-wiki (including many sockpuppets, fringe figures, conspiracy-mongers, and the like) and he/she choose to keep track of all this. There's absolutely no policy against this, and I believe others keep similar lists in their user-space. This is not a project that I, personally, would choose to undertake (seems like a waste of time), but Snoogs is totally entitled to do it, perhaps to show that he/she won't be intimidated, or just finds it amusing. In either case, he's entitled to do so. Neutralitytalk17:21, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Other than your opinion you have made no case why my view was incorrect. It certainly is reasonable to see a list such as this as an "enemies list". However, since there doesn't seem to be consensus for removal that's that. However, if you want to step up and make your case for BOOMERANG, go for it. Springee (talk) 02:36, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Propose AP2 Topic Ban for Snooganssnoogans
WP:SNOW. There's no chance that a consensus will develop to enact this proposal. Ending this in the usual interest of stopping the ongoing bickering. --Jayron3213:15, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Altough I support the 1RR restriction above, I do not believe it goes far enough to stop Snooganssnoogans persistent gaming of the system and WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. Snooganssnoogans own user page (which is being debated above) makes the case that he has damaged Wikipedia's reputation and his contributions in the area of American Politics is a net negative. In my opinion a topic ban would be the only effective solution.--Rusf10 (talk) 20:25, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - no evidence to support this (the fact that Snoogs is attacked by fringe elements online does not mean that "he has damaged Wikipedia's reputation"—that assertion is mind-boggling), and frankly there is a strong unclean hands aspect to this proposal. Neutralitytalk20:39, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Rusf10 has an 11 year edit history with no blocks. Have they been involved with any issues with Snoog that would suggest they are proposing this out of revenge etc? Springee (talk) 20:43, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the two have repeatedly clashed, with Rusf10 often using personal terms against Snoogs. See here and here, to name a few. Snoogs' conduct toward Rusf10, in comparison, looks fairly measured. Moreover, within the last eight months or so Rusf10 has been cautioned by admins for proxying for a banned editor (by restoring or un-hatting "belligerent, unconstructive hyper-partisan" talk-page edits from the banned editor on an article talk page in the AP2 area) and has had an AP2 discretionary sanction (specifically, an "auto-boomerang" sanction) imposed "for continuing to engage in WP:Battleground behavior and WP:ABF" despite warnings, including for "the hounding nature of, and battleground behavior exhibited" in his "third AE enforcement request in a year against User:BullRangifer." In light of this history, Rusf10 is possibly the last person on the project that should be bringing these kinds of cases to the noticeboards. Neutralitytalk21:12, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Neutrality:First, of all this thread isn't about me, so stop trying to deflect because you want to get your buddy Snoogans off the hot seat. Why don't we also post Snoog's edit summaries that preceded mine? (Would that be the NEUTRAL way to present it???) On the Justin Amash article Snoog's accuses me of feeding a "disinformation campaign" and on the Nancy Pelosi article he falsely accused me of "disputing that the BBC is a RS" (I didn't even remove it as a source). Stop taking things out of context and casting aspersions by bringing up other unrelated issues. And I have one suggestion: change your username, it is very misleading, you do not even have the slightest semblance of neutrality.--Rusf10 (talk) 21:30, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is the kind of hostile, battlegrounding response that others have warned you about. And yes, when you (or another other editor) seeks to remove another editor from a topic area, of course the editor's own conduct in the topic area will be examined. Neutralitytalk21:49, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't even remotely consistent with your vote on the 1RR proposal. You discredited Rusf10 as someone with a history of battlegrounding, hostility and personal attacks, yet all the evidence presented in the 1RR proposal confirms that Snoogans has done what you accuse Rusf10 of doing. You are the last person who should be picking sides and being hypocritical. The evidence proves the majority of the allegations against Snoogans. --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 00:36, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That was not a "battlegrounding response". I am just defending myself against your personal attack in which you took my statements out of context. Please do not pretend that you are not completely biased in this area. No matter what behavior Snoogans exhibits, you always have his back. Besides taking my edit summaries out of context, you have brought up unrelated (and months old) issues. That's battleground behavior and an Ad hominem personal attack. Maybe your behavior needs to be examined (especially since you are an admin), but this is not an appropriate place to do so.--Rusf10 (talk) 22:51, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
First, of all this thread isn't about me - actually, it became (potentially) about you as soon as you started it. See WP:BOOMERANG and WP:CLEANHANDS. If the reporter has "unclean hands" (ie. they may have contributed to the dispute, disruption, or problem they're reporting, at least to some extent) it's considered appropriate to bring it up here; having your own conduct examined is always part of the risk of requesting action from WP:ANI, WP:AE, WP:RFAR, and other conduct-resolution venues. This is especially true when dealing with revert-warring, incivility, or battleground conduct, because those are situations that often come from sub-optimal conduct by both sides. The purpose of this discussion is to identify the root problem and resolve it, not just to discuss one editor. --Aquillion (talk) 12:21, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I'm sympathetic with the intent but even if that is the correct solution in the end, and I'm not certain it is, I don't see it as the obvious next step. We should be using the smallest restriction needed to address the problem. I think 1RR will address the issue without an unduly preventing Snoog from dealing with clearly bad edits as well as calling for community attention/consensus when needed. Yes, as someone who has been on the receiving end of Snoog's incivility I can see wanting to effectively tell them to go away but on principle that isn't how things should be handled. Springee (talk) 20:41, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I think XOR’easter and Neutrality have already hit the nail on the head and put it better than I could, respectively. I’m still waiting to see what other editors say before weighing in on any possible sanctions, but this is a nuclear option that isn’t needed. I’ll likewise join in the chorus saying that the notion suggested by Rusf10 that Snooganssnoogans has “hurt the reputation” of the encyclopedia is beyond ridiculous on the face of it. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 22:45, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support based on the diffs well above, not the wording of this proposal so the Tban should have a six month term. The edit warring, insulting edit summaries and commentary, battleground mentality and his already noticed inability to edit these controversial articles with a NPOV makes them a net negative in this arena.--MONGO (talk) 22:54, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support, if his WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior continues after 1RR. It's no secret that many of us here have an issue with Snoogans. The sheer volume of support for the proposed 1RR, posted diffs and other evidence are more than enough to warrant a 1RR for Snoogans. If his hostile, retaliatory behavior went any farther, I would support a full and permanent topic ban from AP2. However, I believe in giving people a chance to change their ways and become constructive Wikipedia editors if possible. Snoogans has claimed that he patrols AP2 and that he makes it a routine to revert vandalism, trolling and whitewashing, the latter two being things which he himself does. It's a known fact that Snoogans is a prominent edit-warrior and a violator of WP:BATTLEGROUND. Snoogans's behavior is troubling for a patroller: it is downright disruptive and malicious. Snoogans's claim that everyone who reverts his reverts has a right-wing POV, is enough evidence to confirm POV/bias. I will admit that I am a libertarian, thus I am right-wing, and my userpage reflects this. However, I will also admit that I apply neutrality to all my edits, and my contributions confirm this. While I'm not exactly a senior/veteran editor, and much of my edits are grammar-based, my edits regarding political articles should, to any rational person, look neutral and in good-faith. So, please believe me when I say this: I don't care if Snoogans has a political leaning or has political beliefs. If he wants to support someone in the 2020 election, that's his business. His behavior is all that I'm concerned about. His behavior is rude, uncivil, unconstructive and malicious. He's confirmed his own bias and thus provided motive for his battleground behavior and edit-warring. I'm not here to enforce a POV. I'm not here to whitewash. I'm here to help make Wikipedia better and Snoogans has interfered with the goals of Wikipedia. I'm not in favor of giving Snoogans a complete topic ban, permanent or temporary, right now. His behavior is egregious, yes, but a chance should be given for him to correct his behavior and become a constructive Wikipedia editor. 1RR should be applied, the evidence is clear on that. However, a topic ban would be, as of now, excessive as mentioned above. Instead, I propose, apply 1RR for an extended period of time to Snoogans. Afterwards, if his behavior improves, then all is well. If he commits a violation of WP:CIVIL, WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:NPOV, or any of the other violations mentioned in this incident report, at any point, then I propose that he be topic-banned from AP2 for an extended period of time, and if the former should prove fruitless, that he be topic-banned from AP2 permanently, should he engage in this behavior yet again. This kind of behavior is uncalled for, and I'm sure that many of us here just want to make Wikipedia better. When you interfere with the mission of Wikipedia, there must be consequences. Regardless of my disagreements with Snoogans, I believe that he deserves both punishment and a subsequent chance to improve. Wikipedia should expect the best of behavior from a patroller and a senior editor (let alone any editor), and if he can't exhibit that behavior, then make sure he can't antagonize others again over politics. That's all I have to say. Note: when I say "extended period of time," I'm specifically referring to six-month bans or more. --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 23:02, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"Snoogans's claim that everyone who reverts his reverts has a right-wing POV". I've never claimed this. Strike it or provide evidence for this absurd accusation. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:13, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Clarification: I was meaning to refer to your claim that every person endorsing a 1RR towards you has a right-wing POV. It's rich of you to call my accusation "absurd" when you make absurd accusations yourself.--MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 00:24, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"Clarification: I was meaning to refer to your claim that every person endorsing a 1RR towards you has a right-wing POV." That's a brazen falsehood. Two brazen falsehoods in a row. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:48, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not really "brazen"... you said the overwhelming majority of 'support' votes here are right-wing POV editors. Did you want to strike or provide evidence for that absurd accusation? – Levivich01:12, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Do you seriously not know that there is a difference between "every" and a "majority"? Or do you just feel compelled to side with every single person who rubs up against me regardless of the reason? Well, we already know the answer to that given that one of your examples of my 'problematic behavior' is when I stopped a neonazi sockpuppet. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:38, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Awilley has unilaterally given Snooganssnoogans a 1RR restriction
With no comment on the merits of any particular argument, this is simply not a valid proposal. There is no consensus to overturn the sanction, but even if there were, it would not be actionable. Pursuant to Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Appeals and modifications, AE appeals may only be made by the sanctioned user themselves, and may only be made in a designated venue, of which AN/I is not included. Please see the link for details. Snooganssnoogans can appeal at their leisure. Optics and constructive criticism aside, Discretionary Sanctions require no consensus, are unilateral, are customizable, and are directly authorized by Arbcom in the relevant subject areas. You may not like it, but that's literally all discretionary sanctions are. ~Swarm~{sting}02:51, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
With admittedly no consensus, Awilley has unilaterally restricted Snooganssnoogans with a custom restriction of their own design that includes both AP1 and BLPs, which weren't event discussed here. This is a ridiculous decision that subverts the will of the community and should be reversed immediately. ToaNidhiki0500:15, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse action - not that an admin needs my endorsement..the admins do not need to get consent from the community in order to protect the project. Lightburst (talk) 00:19, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally at a minimum you need to notify the admin that you started a thread here.
Just noting this was not a spur-of-the-moment decision, but a follow-through on previous warnings. I would have taken similar action on my own if I had seen the diffs provided by Levivich above outside of an AN/I thread. I waited until this closed so as to not interfere with the community process. Also note that although the scope of the sanction is wider than AP2, the sanction itself is milder than what was proposed above with special accommodations for Snoogans's work in pushing back against drive-by fringe POV pushing by socks and IPs. I'm also willing to make it more nuanced if Snoogans needs that, which is something that community-imposed sanctions don't handle very well. ~Awilley (talk)00:47, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
To me, this looks like you saw what the community decided and then decided to not only ignore it, but to expand the sanction beyond what was even considered here. I don't think it's a good look. I don't want to personally impugn your motives at all or suggest misuse of powers - this is just what it looks like to me. It doesn't seem like a good action, especially given the lengthy discussion. ToaNidhiki0500:57, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
To me, this looks like you saw what evidence was presented of Snoogans' guilt and then decided to not only ignore it, but to write something so inconsiderate of the very foundations of Wikipedia. The rules are the rules. --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 02:11, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This couldn't be a more absurd accusation. I have probably clashed with Toa Nidhiki05 on more pages than I have fingers and toes, yet both of us have in common a principled stance to stop undisclosed COI accounts and sockpuppets, and both of us have experienced on-wiki and off-wiki harassment for past work in service of that goal. Maybe Toa is able to understand what it entails to patrol controversial pages, even if his politics radically differs from mine. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 02:51, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse action When faced with an editor who does things like that, an administrator should be able to put restrictions on them to avoid future problems. DreamFocus00:28, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have a history with this editor on the Illegal immigration to the United States page where this user edit-warred debunked anti-immigrant propaganda and poorly sourced text into the article[164][165][166], as well as removed the best possible academic research on the subject (a recently published 642-page state-of-the-art literature review by the National Academy of Sciences[167]) with a false edit summary just because it failed to portray illegal immigrants in a horrible light.[168] If 1RR had been in place for me at the time, this editor might have succeeded in edit-warring the debunked anti-immigration propaganda into the article, and would have been able to remove a National Academy of Sciences report (which are often considered the gold standard lit reviews) from Wikipedia. That's relevant context. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 02:03, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse action that falls within personal admin discretion (the "D" in WP:ACDS), after much discussion has occurred between the admin and the editor involved. — JFGtalk00:37, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
??? I'm generally supportive of people using a firmer hand in AP2, but I'm not sure why I bothered trudging through that clusterf*** thread to consider the options and offer input if the conversation was going to be completely disregarded. Couldn't someone at least pretend it mattered and close the discussion with a rationale? Nblundtalk01:00, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Nblund: The discussion had been closed with no consensus. diff I see now that close has been reverted. Based on numbers alone (26 Support to 22 Oppose as of now) "no consensus" isn't out of the question, though I'd have appreciated a more thoughtful rationale from the closer myself. Anyway I'm sorry for the invalidating feelings this caused for people participating in the discussion. ~Awilley (talk)02:13, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I see, I appreciate that. I think that non-admin close was seriously ill advised. I'm not sure what the norms are around this stuff, but it seems like the community consensus (or lack of one) should supercede admin discretion here - given that we're all looking at the same diffs. At the very least that conversation needs a proper closure so that editors don't continue to waste time commenting on a moot point. I think other participating admins also questioned whether this sanction was warranted, so it seems arbitrary even under the standards of administrative discretion. Nblundtalk02:26, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Optics are not great. For an AE sanction in this still-ongoing AN/I case, this ought to have gone to WP:AE so that a consensus (or lack thereof) of uninvolved admins could be established with regards to any sanction proposals. El_C01:09, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Unilaterally subverting an ongoing community discussion seems like an invitation for more drama rather than a consensus-driven outcome which the community can live with. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:31, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The 1RR proposal had been closed as no consensus [169], which Awilley referred to in the sanctions notice [170], and I'm guessing he hadn't noticed that the discussion had been re-opened [171] prior to posting the notice. – Levivich01:50, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support. First - full disclosure - I am the editor previously known as BattleshipGray. I recently tried to log on under that name, like I have repeatedly in the past, but was unable to do so. I changed my Username to GlassBones and was able to get back in. As forSnooganssnoogans (talk, I know that I am relatively new at this, and I don't have the time to edit Wikipedia for hours nearly every day like Snoogans, but I doubt that there is any editor more deserving of sanctions than this editor. Snoogans routinely engages in edit warring, even delighting in doing so, and operates with impunity. Further, Snoogans consistently bullies other editors to make sure their point of view prevails in articles that Snoogans chooses to edit, which are many. Snoogans routinely accuses other editors of violating rules, while at the same time violating those and other rules. Snoogans also often simple hits "undo" with little if any explanation let alone justification or consensus, then bullies any editor who tries to re-insert language Snoogans removes. This editor makes it very unpleasant for any new editor, as well as many seasoned editors, which is no doubt his motivation and means of getting what he wants. GlassBones (talk) 02:23, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
^I have a history with this editor. If you check BattleshipGray's contributions[172], you'll see an editor singularly obsessed with following me around and reverting me (I'm not exaggerating - see for yourself). This editor's obsession with reverting me includes trying to mislead readers into thinking that the Bush administration was right in saying Iraq had weapons of mass destruction[173] and pushing conspiracy theories about the DNC email hack.[174]Snooganssnoogans (talk) 02:40, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Snooganssnoogans (talk, you have a history with me. Clearly, as evidenced by your talk page, your edits, and this Administrators page, you have issues with many other editors. If so many people have an issue with you, maybe you should ask yourself - is the problem with everyone else, or is the problem with the person you see in the mirror? GlassBones (talk) 02:48, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting, GlassBones. I see you did your best to insert some conservative talking points in various articles ([175]) and tried to claim that Columbia Journalism Review is not a reliable source. I hope that with your new name you also shed that foolishness, since your lack of knowledge of what RS means can lead to a topic ban from an area where this might be very relevant. I see that Doug Weller alerted you to discretionary sanctions within days after starting editing under that Battleship account, and I also see that Bishonen dropped a serious warning on the talk page of your new account. Ajwilley, you warned this editor about hounding; I'm wondering if you shouldn't consider topic-banning this editor from editing in the AP area. I don't see anything positive in their edits in that area. Drmies (talk) 02:08, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Drmies: It seems obvious to me that BattleshipGray isn't that person's first editing experience. Not sure whether that should be followed up on first. (SPI block, if necessary, is cleaner than a topic ban, I think.) ~Awilley (talk)22:40, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really know what to do about that right now, Awilley, but I do know this: Snoogans wouldn't be the first editor who is essentially baited into topic bans or blocks. Just look at how many times Volunteer Marek has been brought up on various charges, very often by trolls or inspired by trolls--he's fighting one off right now, an LTA--and so one thing leads to another. Our former colleague Malik Shabazz was harassed and then baited by a racist into overreacting. You take any editor in a contested topic area (I know it won't be you, but it might be me), you harass them some, tag-team them, pounce on a mistake--voila. I mean, the diffs that were proposed above to prove Snoogans was an inveterated edit warrior--they were lousy, and on closer inspection proved that Snoogan's was doing their NPOV job. The only way in which he was a disruptive POV edit warrior in the diffs I look at is if you believe all points of view are equal--which they aren't. "Both sides are equal"--yeah, no.
All this to say that the operations of socks, SPAs, and trolls can have serious repercussions. In this case, though, I do not believe we are dealing with a longtime troll or a sock--merely with someone whose agenda is obvious, who isn't here really to improve the project (look at their edits on Project Veritas) and who enjoys throwing a wrench into a process. I do not believe there is an orchestrated campaign against Snoogans, but I do believe he serves as a useful lighting rod for a whole bunch of editors who are simply not here for the right reasons, and I think Battleship/GlassBones is one of them.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Drmies (talk • contribs)
I agree GlassBones surely wasn't new when they created BattleshipGray either, Awilley. But I don't know who the master might be. The first suspect that comes to mind, User:Hidden Tempo, is stale, and it's hardly a duck case, so I'm not sure what use an SPI could be. But if they go on as before, a WP:NOTHERE block will surely not be far behind, without any need for an SPI. Currently, they seem slightly intimidated by the warnings, which is a good thing. Bishonen | talk00:38, 18 November 2019 (UTC).[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Awilley now negotiating side deal with Snooganssnoogans to rescind 1RR restriction that he just imposed
Just wanted to bring to everyone's attention the discussion going on at User talk:Snooganssnoogans where Awilley is now agreeing to let Snoogans off the hook in exchange for voluntary restrictions. These restrictions of course will NOT be enforcable and lets Snoogans arbitrarily decide when the 1RR applies based on whether he considers someone to be a "regular editor". This will not solve the problem. What Awilley fails to understand is that wikipedia does not need Snooganssnoogans to be able to revert multiple times to fight vandalism. If there is legit vandalism on a page, let him report it and someone else will revert it for him. I don't see why he needs to be accomodated because he sometimes reverts legit vandalism. The unacceptable behavior will not end with voluntary restrictions.--Rusf10 (talk) 14:50, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You can't on one hand cheer the unilateral imposition of sanctions by an admin when it suits you, and then on the other cry about unilateral changes to those sanctions by that admin when it doesn't suit you. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 14:58, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The 1RR was proposed not as a punishment but as a way to address a problem. If the negotiations in question address that problem then those who favored the 1RR restriction, myself included, should be content. I think Awilley is going to be sensitive to the issues raised by all sides and we should assume that snoog will make a good faith effort to adhere to their agreement. Springee (talk) 15:46, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, Awilley is trying to negotiate a deal that I find completely unacceptable. Giving Snoogans the discretion to determine who is a "regular editor" is a joke. Snoogans routinely labels editors as "fringe" and "far-right" just because he disagrees with them (and I'm not talking just about drive-by vandals, I mean established editors). He is not capable of making that judgement. And what ever restriction we ultimately end up with needs to be enforceable or otherwise we'll just end up back here at ANI.--Rusf10 (talk) 15:55, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Voluntary restrictions are still enforcable: if you have enough evidence that Snoogans has violated the terms, you can present the evidence back to Awilley or to ANI, pointing back to the terms Snoogans agreed to, and request they turn the voluntary restrictions into enforced ones. It is a reminder that we don't pass blocks or bans to punish but as to reduce disruption, and if Snoogans is agreeing to reduce the disruption they cause by exceeding 1RR where they (and all others) shouldn't, then this is fine. They should know they are on a short leash, and can't continue past behavior. --Masem (t) 17:15, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Administrators are here to protect the project and the content creators. Awilley will measure 1RR restrictions based on that criteria. If you feel that Awilley needs to be sanctioned, Swarm told you how to approach that. in addition I believe Swarm said an editor has to have "Standing" to appeal these restrictions or lack of. In other words Snooganssnoogans has standing, the rest of the editors do not. Lightburst (talk) 16:03, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am not looking for AWilley to be sanctioned. I just want everyone to be aware of what he is doing and how it is not going to work.--Rusf10 (talk) 16:07, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks,Rusf10, for letting us know. If there is anyone who deserves to be sanctioned for battleground behavior, incivility, and bullying it is Snooganssnoogans. And it is clear from Snoog's behavior that voluntary restrictions are ineffective and not enough. I am not surprised that there are backroom deals being negotiated between Awilley and this editor; many others have been sanctioned by administrators for less, but somehow Snoog is able to operate with impunity, and given plenty of rope. For whatever reason, it seems a different standard applies to Snoog than to other editors.GlassBones (talk) 20:24, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with using AE while an AN/I discussion is ongoing (and seems like it's headed toward being closed as no consensus) is that it is a technicality that effectively serves as a suprevote. El_C17:09, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. This exactly seems like a supervote considering the circumstances. Nobody is denying that admins can enforce AE actions in circumstances like this. It's more dubious whether they should. Simonm223 (talk) 17:14, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Just to point out the not-apparently-obvious: the community is free to impose (by consensus) its own restrictions and sanctions, which are not reversible by admins acting under individual authority. I don't think I want to start making suggestions about how community sanctions interact with discretionary sanctions, but it would be especially bad optics for an administrator to impose a DS that directly contradicts a preexisting community consensus. I think that is not what happened here, but I also have not been following very closely at all. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:33, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It is worth pointing out that when AWilley invoked the sanctions, the discussion had been (briefly) non-admin closured as no-consensus; they couldn't have anticipated that it would be re-opened. That said, yeah, if nothing else, this shows why it may not be advisable to invoke AE in circumstances like this, even though admins definitely have the freedom to do so. Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Procedures#Expectations_of_administrators states that Administrators do not need explicit consensus to enforce arbitration decisions and can always act unilaterally. However, when the case is not clear-cut they are encouraged, before acting, to seek input from their colleagues at arbitration enforcement. I would think that an WP:ANI discussion closed as a close, controversial no-consensus would be the iconic example of a situation where "the case is not clear-cut." Probably taking it to WP:AE would have been a better call. (Although I think that at some point WP:RFAR is the only reasonable endpoint, since there are underlying complex back-and-forth accusations that need to be untangled, and lots of WP:BATTLEGROUND conduct on all sides that needs to be examined. Not that I can imagine that ArbCom is particularly eager to get into AP3.) --Aquillion (talk) 18:01, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've said this in a couple of places already, but let me say it again here that the sanctions I imposed were not meant as a supervote or to derail a community process. It was a follow-through on previous warnings that I personally had given, and I waited until the discussion here was closed with "no consensus" before doing anything. If there had been a consensus I definitely would not have gone against that. I would also push back a bit on the implication that Arbcom would tell admins "here are some extra tools, please don't use them." The way I see it AP2 happened because the community wasn't able to resolve messy problems plaguing the topic area. Arbcom responded by delegating some of its authority, giving individual admins the explicit power to cut through gridlock. I think everybody can agree that ArbCom cases are unpleasant for everyone involved and a huge time sink. Why then would we start AP3 without first exhausting the options we currently have? One of my long-term underlying goals is to prevent AP3 by making it unnecessary. Does DS have problems? Of course. Is it too much power for individual admins? I think so. Which is why I support this (that discretionary sanctions like topic bans and edit restrictions should be able to be treated and appealed like regular blocks, able to be reversed by other individual admins). But this is probably not the best forum for discussing that kind of reform. ~Awilley (talk)19:34, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There's a ton of diffs in this extended thread that point to other editors acting more or less as badly as the accusations against Snoogs. It's hard to understand why an Admin who's voluntarily patrolling American Politics would have given Snoogs "previous warnings" and not some of the others who appear in the diffs here. It's just going to seem more plausible to many observers that the now-aborted Awilley sanction was somehow connected with Snoogs having been the subject of this no-consensus ANI. Hence the understandable concern about a supervote.
Awilley, your comments seem to be focused on justifying your own actions, whereas the comments of others are focused on good process, transparency, and what's good for the community. SPECIFICOtalk22:20, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear (since I was the one who cited the quote implying that this might have been a case where more caution was called for), I think ArbCom absolutely wanted admins to use these tools, and definitely cutting through all the debate was something they empowered admins to do - I don't think it was that bad of a call on your part (the discussion with Snoog afterwards seemed productive; it was mostly the re-opening of the ANI thread, which you couldn't have anticipated, that caused things to collide.) But they also encouraged admins to discuss first in close or controversial situations, and if that doesn't apply here - at the bottom of a massive, heavily-disputed ANI thread - then it's hard to envision a situation where it ever would. At the very least such discussions might have avoided some of the rancorous back-and-forth after the fact (we now have two fairly large discussion sections going at you from opposite directions), and probably taking enough time to talk it over would have avoided the collision with the WP:ANI thread being re-opened. I mean, I know it's silly to suggest that you could have made everyone happy - part of the reason AE is unilateral is because sometimes that isn't possible and you just need to cut through the red tape to resolve a problem - but there was at least enough time to gauge the opinions of other admins, which would have lessened the blowback when you could point to that. --Aquillion (talk) 15:41, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Aquillion:, I hesitate to consume too much space here analyzing things in the past that cannot be changed, but I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions and would reply with a couple thoughts of my own. First, there are two things that I regret: 1. I should have let the dust settle on the AN/I close before doing anything. That would have avoided a lot of this. 2. I should not have expanded the scope of the 1RR, even though I reduced the severity of the sanction. If I had to do it again I would have limited my modified 1RR sanction to top-level BLPs only and left American Politics out of it. (That also would have been more consistent with the previous warnings I had given Snoogans.) On the whether I should have opened a thread at WP:AE, let me see if I can save 1000 words with a flowchart showing when I think individual admin discretion is allowed: Proposed interplay between community consensus processes and individual admin discretionary actions In a nutshell, I think the discussion above fell into the center "no consensus" area, opening it up to multiple possible paths forward. Escalating to WP:AE was (and I suppose still is) a viable option. As I said here I chose the path of unilateral action because after 3 days of contentions divisive discussion ending in stalemate, I didn't think it would be a good use of the community's time to open the same contentious divisive discussion in another forum. A fairly foundational principle in Wikipedia is that if you see a problem and can do something to resolve it, you are allowed to do so without going through a committee. Of course there are many other considerations and exceptions and a need for caution and there's a lot of room for disagreement and equally-valid alternate approaches. El_C's approach is not wrong. I apologize for the optics here being bad, and for not being more deliberate. And I'm sorry it resulted in these two extra threads. I'm not sorry that I took administrative action, though, and aside from the too-broad scope, I don't regret the specific admin actions I took, even though they annoyed people on both sides. ~Awilley (talk)22:31, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I get what you're saying, but I feel like you left the most important part out from your flowchart (at least as far as what I was saying goes). Under what circumstances do you feel that an admin should be "encouraged before acting, to seek input from their colleagues at arbitration enforcement"? Obviously discretion applies - that's the point of the sanctions being discretionary - but it reads to me like you're saying that you would never want to seek outside input before using your discretion to impose a sanction after a no-consensus ANI outcome, because doing so will always involve taking things to another forum and protracting discussions. I can understand the desire to try for that kind of neat and tidy outcome, but because things were not clear-cut, and because you didn't seek any discussion beforehand, your efforts to not open the same contentious divisive discussion in another forum has now opened at least two separate contentious divisive discussions and had a very high chance of going to WP:AE anyway if and when discussions broke down and Snoog appealed. I feel that it was for this precise reason that ArbCom encouraged discussion before acting in unclear situations like these - I simply cannot see any reasonably-likely outcome where your unilateral actions would have resulted in less rancorous discussion than if you consulted with other administrators and got a few of them to back you first. Such discussion would probably have also addressed the problems you mentioned beforehand. --Aquillion (talk) 20:46, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Among the acceptable ways to prevent AP3 is not individual admins attempting to solve problems on their own by disrupting the formation of consensus at the dispute resolution noticeboards. DGG ( talk ) 01:56, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I’ll echo that this looks pretty bad. There was no consensus emerging, and it looks like Awilley unilaterally attempted to enforce a sanction that wasn’t forthcoming, against community consensus. I’ll state preemptively that I actually generally agree with most of Awilley’s admin actions, but this was a monumental error in judgement that I didn’t expect. This should’ve been taken to an admin board where other administrators could weigh in, especially as it was an ANI item under discussion. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 03:45, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"There was no consensus emerging, and it looks like Awilley unilaterally attempted to enforce a sanction that wasn’t forthcoming, against community consensus." I think the two underlined portions of that sentence are contradictory. ~Awilley (talk)22:31, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's true that there was no consensus for any sanction, but it's also true that there was no consensus against a sanction, either. See helpful flowchart above. – Levivich03:52, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
* Shouldn't even have got to this point. There was clearly no consensus to sanction Snoogans with a 1RR, and Awilley should just withdraw the sanction because it's clearly wrong. "I waited until the discussion here was closed with "no consensus" before doing anything" - which was then to ignore the result completely? Ridiculous. Black Kite (talk)20:10, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
For everyone's information, an editor has opened a related request here.
With respect to the ultimate priority of constructive editing at American Politics articles, I think the most troubling unresolved issue here is why an Admin who's actively volunteering to patrol the area, having presumably read all the diffs and considered the issues and interactions they portray, would single out Snoogansnoogans for a sanction. It's hard to separate this from the other issues regarding Arbcom's expectations of Admins in DS and regarding the apparent disregard for community process, even one as unruly as ANI. SPECIFICOtalk00:18, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Proposal: AP2 noticeboard
The more I look at this, the more it seems to me that friction concerning Snooganssnoogans is exposing a weakness in WP. A lot of comments above suggest that he's doing the right thing in the wrong way. Some note, accurately, that 1RR would prevent him protecting articles against attack by POV-pushers. Others note, accurately, that he has a tendency to edit-war. Ultimately 1RR would require the proliferation of discussions on Talk pages often with limited eyeballs.
I propose that, for at least the period until the end of the 2020 US election cycle, we set up an American Politics noticeboard, where editors who specialise in this topic area can raise issues in relation to articles that are subject to disruption, without leaving any editor feeling they are fighting a lone battle to protect the project, with the attendant risk of burnout. Alternatively we could set up a new WikProject for American Politics as an intersection of WikiProject Politics and WikiProject United States.
I feel that a centralised discussion area might help to prevent the current proliferation of fires around the project. This has worked reasonably well for fringe science, biographies and reliable sources. Guy (help!) 01:15, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Promoted up one level to separate from Snoogs thread, as some people are misperceiving this as an alternative to addressing Snoog's conduct, which it is not.Guy (help!) 09:43, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This solution is absolutely ludicrous. To respond to widespread evidence of Wikipedia policy violations on the part of Snoogans with "let's make a noticeboard" is just completely dismissive of the integrity of Wikipedia. I would support your proposal if it included 1RR on Snoogans, but it seems that direct evidence of his battleground attitude isn't enough: we must need the edict of a deity to condemn his conduct for what it is. It doesn't matter if 1RR would impede Snoogans from repelling POV pushers: his actions have demonstrated a clear need for punishment. He ignited the dumpster fire. Get someone else to do an impartial patrolling of AP2, since it seems Snoogans can't seem to do that. You can't help Wikipedia if you violate its policies. Are we seriously going to resort to "he can violate the rules all he wants if he catches people violating those same rules"? --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 01:45, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose- We already have talk pages for the purpose of discussing edits and Snoogans doesn't seem to like them anyway, "it would force me to dedicate countless hours to starting talk page discussions and keeping tabs of dozens of on-going disputes without any effective way of ensuring a stable status quo version of the article." [176] If there is legit vandalism, I have confidence that any one of other other editors can deal with it. Also, nothing would stop him from reporting vandalism to WP:AIV. I can assure you that Wikipedia will not collapse due to an insurmountable amount of uncontrolled vandalism just because Snoogans is under a 1RR restriction. Some have asserted that Snoogans is doing the right thing (even if he may be going about it the wrong way). He is not. He is engaging in POV-pushing edit-warring.--Rusf10 (talk) 02:06, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is a good idea, I think, regardless of whether Snooganssnoogans individually has crossed any lines or not. It's a much bigger issue. After all, American politics isn't going to get less fraught over the next year. I've wanted to solicit third opinions and ask for expert input and been flummoxed by the lack of an obviously active, well-trafficked central location to do so. Yes, we already have talk pages, which go unwatched, and we already have a WikiProject or two that are at least in the vicinity of relevant, but they may not be geared up for the particular challenges that lie ahead. None of our Noticeboards are perfect, of course, but they're not bad examples to follow. (Parenthetically, I note that it's logically possible to support creating WP:AP2N and believe that Snooganssnoogans should be put under 1RR. This is a bigger-picture question.) XOR'easter (talk) 02:47, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – I fear that such a noticeboard will end up looking like this thread, which in turn looks like a lot of AP2 talk pages. If you ask me, the structural solution is to ECP and 1RR all of AP2. – Levivich05:25, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Levivich, I rather hope the opposite will be true: interested editors will be able to collate discussion of controversial editing in a controversial area, much as we do with WP:FTN, and thus forestall the problem of individual editors burning out defending the project. Guy (help!) 10:21, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Levivich and JzG, I have myself contemplated proposing a blanket ECP across American-politics pages. I haven't yet been convinced that it's necessary — at least, not convinced enough that I was willing to start the drama-filled process of a proposal debate. XOR'easter (talk) 16:56, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Levivich's concern is reasonable, but we need that discussion to take place somewhere, ultimately, and I feel that a centralized noticeboard has more of a chance to attract outside voices and get people to calm down than limited discussion on talk pages. While this particular discussion might be particularly rancorous despite the number of people involved, I feel that in general, adding more people to a discussion helps stabilize it and calm it down, because at a certain point you get enough experienced editors who, personal views or not, know the policy and understand how a particular dispute ought to go. Also, much like WP:RSN, a centralized board might have a better chance of building up a broad consensus about recurring issues that are otherwise overlooked due to the discussion being scattered over a bunch of talk pages. We're going to have to have those potentially-ugly discussions somewhere, and I feel a dedicated noticeboard is better than scattered talkpages. Although, one caveat - does a clear WP:BLPN / WP:RSN / WP:NPOVN issue go to one of those noticeboards, or to the hypothetical WP:AP2N? There is certainly also some advantage to putting issues in front of editors who are not knee-deep in AP2. (Though in practice political disputes can get arcane and offputting enough to the point where, in my experience, only people who are already involved in the topic area really weigh in when they come up on those boards anyway.) --Aquillion (talk) 08:31, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Aquillion, A reasonable question, and one we already deal with in cases where BLP and FRINGE overlap, for example. We can post notification of BLP issues at BLPN, linking to the thread, and move threads to the board with the widest group of editors knowledgeable in the subject area. A modest amount of curation is required but past experience indicates it is not that big a problem. Guy (help!) 09:45, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Guy: it should have enough eyes to avoid becoming a walled garden, but with the expertise/specialisms that are often (ahem) lacked on this board. Those who !voted in opposition should be given the chance to speak again in light of Guy's clarification. ——SN5412919:11, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support This really is a separate issue involving a lot more than one editor. The next year in American politics is going to be the most difficult year Wikipedia (and perhaps America) has experienced so far in terms of different parties trying to manipulate our articles - and we know from what's happened on social media these "parties' are unlikely to be purely American. Neither ANI nor AE are appropriate places to discuss the issues Guy and others have suggested could be handled at the proposed noticeboard. {u|Levivich} your structural suggestion just isn't practical. Even now new pages are being created daily and the number is going to continue to grow quickly, at least that's what I see happening. No one would be able to find all the pages, let alone spend the time to ECP them, add edit notices etc, and a bot wouldn't be able to do it either. One subsidiary function of the proposed board could be to let others know about new pages. A number of issues are common across multiple articles and handling them article by article won't work. I don't know how well such a proposed board would work, but I think it would be better having one than not, and if it proves disastrous, which I doubt, we can shut it down. [[User:Rusf10, -User:MrThunderbolt1000T, your opposes seem to have been based on a misunderstanding, do you still oppose? Doug Wellertalk19:35, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Wikipedia exists in the real world, and, in the real world, more POV-pushing on the English Wikipedia is concerned with American politics that any other such broad topic. A noticeboard is a good way to deal with this issue rather than a reliance on lone editors on particular pages. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:46, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support Sure..."we don't need another noticeboard"...but the alternative is what we have today. Centralizing these issues together could do some good and I'm willing to give it a shot. Buffs (talk) 20:44, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't say dead. It's been useful and has resulted in stability being brought to, e.g., terrorism lists, Trump impeachment articles, HK protest articles. It's not the busiest board, but it's been effective at getting editor eyes rapidly on an article. – Levivich21:30, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As someone who was directly involved in the terrorism lists issue, the Current events noticeboard was definitely a valuable resource during that discussion. Simonm223 (talk) 17:03, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This is an interesting idea. I don't think anybody disagrees the topic area has problems. I don't know whether this might be a helpful solution or if it would just turn into AN/I 2.0 - another venue dedicated to endless bickering. I think there might be some structural changes that could help with that, but I'm not sure what yet. What structural elements could be put in place to ensure that a new noticeboard would aid editors in working collaboratively vs. engaging in partisan warfare? As for putting the entire topic area under ECP, I would strongly oppose that. That's too high a barrier for new editors, and yes, we occasionally get good new editors, even in controversial topic areas. A couple high profile BLPs might be good candidates for ECP, but definitely not everything. I just semi-d a couple BLPs yesterday that had zero protection...Semi-protection or even pending changes is a high enough bar for the vast majority of political articles. ~Awilley (talk)20:59, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support – Farming out these disputes to a dedicated noticeboard might help focus on recurring issues, attract better-informed participants, and relieve some of the stress on AN/I and AE venues. Or it might totally fail… In both cases it will be fun, so let's try it! — JFGtalk00:32, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support this excellent idea. This would save lots of time and be central place for these specialized discussions and issues. If a talk page template is created for this, please include a link to WP:AP/N (or whatever). -- BullRangifer (talk) 03:35, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well actually, I didn't forget about it completely. I actually check that page, but I forgot about it within the context of this proposal... I'm just going to see myself out. –MJL‐Talk‐☖05:37, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support I don't like this, and I understand the "not another noticeboard" opposition. But it would centralise discussion, it would reduce those interested missing out threads on the more obscure pages, it would place discussions under the view of a cadre of editors knowledgeable about the topic and it would reduce some cruft onto ANI more generally. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:38, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I support JzG's suggestion for a specialised AP2 noticeboard, especially because I'd like to see ANI relieved of the American politics bloat under which it now groans. Bishonen | talk20:38, 15 November 2019 (UTC).[reply]
Support Last election cycle, one super PAC used over a million USD on online-campaigning: LA Times: Be nice to Hillary Clinton online - or risk a confrontation with her super PAC. It's not like Wikipedia is immune to that kind of campaigning. For some reason, the powers that be allowed Cirt to evade his politics topic ban despite the socking becoming an open secret. We are going to need scrutiny on things like that. Right now there editors who edit American politics 14 hours a day. So if the scope is broader like this, it will be needed. Now this kind of critical discussion often needs to be held on off-site Wikipedia criticism sites because it's outside the scope of ANI and AE. --Pudeo (talk) 22:58, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm - This sure seems like something to be discussed at VP or otherwise somewhere other than as a [former] subthread of a specific ANI matter. Worth noting that the current events noticeboard has never really gotten off the ground -- as most of the AP2 issues seem to be related to [reasonably] current events, maybe people could just start using that first? — Rhododendritestalk \\ 01:40, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support as an editor with very little interest in American politics, I would welcome anything that reduces its pollution of the rest of the Project. Alexbrn (talk) 07:21, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support in principle, with details to be worked out by consensus. Please don't call it AP2 noticeboard though. Let's not perpetuate Arbcom's forking silliness. Just call it American Politics Noticeboard (WP:APN aka WP:TRIBAL).- MrX 🖋 12:31, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
MrX, fair point. Or possibly current politics, since Brexit causes all the same shit and was also the result of Russian covert operations. Guy (help!) 18:15, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A general politics noticeboard might be the best way to do it, since all political topics have similar problems, just at a lower scale outside of US + Britain due to enwiki obviously leaning towards an English audience. Also, including a wider variety of politics might reduce the danger of it turning into a pure WP:BATTLEGROUND. --Aquillion (talk) 19:27, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I partially disagree here. While this might work for the Americas and (most of) Europe, we’d be ill advised to extend this internationally, as Eastern Europe, Central Asia, the Middle East, South Asia and East Asia all have very different and complex reasons for their issues. We’d be better advised to make regional noticeboards if this proves to be a global issue. Thus far, the existing noticeboards seem to be able to handle the issues on the English Wikipedia, aside from maybe South Asia (India-Pakistan-Bangladesh). Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 04:16, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I agree with the need to relieve AN/ANI of the AP2 burden. I'm concerned that creating a specialized noticeboard for AP2 topics will make it a hotspot of disruption that will attract even fewer independent voices, and as a result will be even harder to moderate. It also offers far too easy a target for sustained disruption. JzG, are you visualizing this noticeboard as a location where sanctions may be levied? If so, you do realize you are proposing the creation of only the third venue where sanctions may be placed based on community consensus? Also, AP2 stuff is terrible, but it isn't qualitatively worse than our other political dispute areas (ARBPIA, ARBIPA, and a couple of others). A general politics noticeboard would be something I'd be a lot happier with; it also avoids giving the impression that we take American politics disruption more seriously than that in other areas. Vanamonde (Talk)21:19, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Vanamonde93, I envisage a forum where articles may be discussed. I would not expect sanctions discussions to happen there, certainly in the first instance. I would expect sanctions requests to go to the usual venues should an editor be considered sufficiently unmutual. Guy (help!) 22:02, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Well, I'd support the creation of a noticeboard to discuss content related to politics in general. There is a need for more focused dispute resolution with respect to politics. I would oppose the creation of a new noticeboard where sanctions may be levied (Thanks for clarifying that that's not what you want, JzG, but I think this proposal has taken on a life of its own) and I would also oppose anything that's AP2 specific; we don't need another locus for the frequent-flyers of this topic to argue ad nauseum among themselves; what the AP2 disputes need is incisive input from voices less familiar with the whole mess, and who are thus less likely to get lost in the weeds. Vanamonde (Talk)15:55, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support This area has been fraught with long-term problems since the wider divide of ideology in American Politics emerged, primarily traced to the doubt cast on reliable sources in mainstream culture, which is a persistent problem (even among veteran editors). This is in addition to the huge time sink of LTAs, sock puppets, POV warriors, and SPAs who seem to frequent these pages nowadays. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 04:03, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support I'm very torn on this idea. We're at the start of what I think will be the most divisive election in recent US history. Pulling the madness out off the existing boards, ANI and DRN in particular, would be helpful IF AND ONLY IF there is a solid core of admins willing to actively monitor and help defuse situations. Being aggressive about using 0RR/1RR on articles and even short blocks (2-4 hours) to stop initial disruption and get editors to discuss. My real worry is that this may help some, and then we'll have Israel-Palestine, India-Pakistan and Eastern European boards popping up and that needed core of admins gets more and more dispersed. Ravensfire (talk) 04:16, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would ask for clarification. You don’t see the problem that barely created accounts get involved into the edit war? And is everything okay with the edit summaries like "vandalism", "I repeat, vandalism"?--Nicoljaus (talk) 15:44, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I do not see any problem with the material they are edding. May be if you stop reverting everything on sight they do not need to call your edits vandalism.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:47, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Perfect. I would be grateful if in the future you will not be in such a hurry to fulfill Tempus's requests. It seems to me that three minutes between his request and your answer is a bit small for a person who is trying to figure out a situation.--Nicoljaus (talk) 16:18, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Tempus 15:00 | Ymblanter 15:03 - "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."--Nicoljaus (talk) 16:57, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the OPs complaint, there's some merit to the fact that three brand-new accounts showed up in rapid succession to repeatedly revert a single edit of his at a rather out-of-the-way article like this. That seems to me like prima facie evidence that a checkuser might want to look into any shenanigans. WP:SPA would be the correct venue for this. --Jayron3217:23, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that this is "a rather out-of-the-way article". The subject is very much in the news at the moment here in the UK, although he has no apparent connection to this country, so I suspect that he is also in the news elsewhere. This seems like yet another case of editors rushing to create an article based on primary breaking news reports rather than proper secondary sources, which inevitably leads to conflicts over which sources to believe. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:33, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am not really surprised with that, however, a valid edit was recklessly reverted by OP two three times without any reasonable explanation, and the OP, when I pointed this out, instead of providing any explanation, started to attack me. I think WP:BOOMERANG would be in order here.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:57, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
But what was really happened: I deleted this piece of text with the intentions of the murderer's lawyer, saying in the edit summary "rm excess whitewashing" [182]. It was returned without any explanation[183]. I canceled and asked for the reason in the edit summary [184]. Instead, another fresh account reverted and wrote "vandalism" [185]. This is how things really are. Once again, I humbly ask you, Blanter, to stop slandering me.--Nicoljaus (talk) 08:56, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
To summarize: you have been edit-warring in this article removing valid content. Now you are attacking the administrator who looked into the case and disagreed with you, in particular, tryiong to imply that this administrator did not use his own judgement but blindly listened to your opponent. Whereas some of your opponents turn out to be socks, and whereas they clearly used unacceptable language (which is likely explained by the fact that this is a new user, and nobody cared to explain our policies to them), I do not see how this excuses your own behavior. When you think I can take a decision which you need you go to my talk page and try to convince me to do it, but if I disagree with you, I am suddenly "slandering" you. You see, this is not the Russian W#ikipedia, where this behavior has been tolerated for years (and where in the end you apparently got an indef block anyway).--Ymblanter (talk) 09:06, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Whereas some of your opponents turn out to be socks, and whereas they clearly used unacceptable language -- Oh what I see. But in the beginning, you said something completely different: I do not see any problems with these edits. To summarize: You rushed in three minutes after Tempus' requests and started talking that I am "reverting everything on sight" and there are no "any problems". Then you continued to slander that I did not provided any explanation for my actions. If you and Tempus consider this to be valuable content, you need to explain your position on the talk page. When consensus is reached there, this information will go into the article. Everything is simple. P.S. It's not me, but Tempus walks through the talk pages of his friends admins from ru-wiki [186], [187]. Enough of this false accusations, please.--Nicoljaus (talk) 09:39, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Just to note that Nicoljaus made four reverts within 24h, already after they have opened this topic, and the text they were reverting is not vandalism and not BLP violation.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:14, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
made four reverts within 24h -- Fist: 05:56, 14 November 2019[188] and fourth: 23:48, 15 November 2019[189]. More like 42 hours than 24. Maybe you just messed up the order of numbers?--Nicoljaus (talk) 09:30, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Your singular and out-of-proportion vendetta against this editor has been noted for future reference. Thanks for sharing! --Jayron3215:00, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think I have any vendetta against this editor. In fact, everything has developed in this thread, and aspersions against me (for example, that I am a puppet of another user) have never been followed up. This is the Russian Wikipedia style: throw as much shit as you can, may be some of it sticks. This is not the first time it happens to me, and I already got used to it.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:18, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The Jacob Emden page includes a long section of text which is copied directly from an academic article:
Thus Moses Mendelssohn, founder of the Jewish Enlightenment movement, wrote to him as "your disciple, who thirsts for your words." Although Emden did not approve of the Hasidic movement which evolved during his lifetime, his books are highly regarded amongst the Hasidim. Thirty-one works were published during his lifetime, ten posthumously, while others remain in manuscript.
I think a quote of this length without attribution is probably considered plagiarism, so I put it as a block quote with appropriate reference. However, User:High Leader repeatedly reverted my edits in order to make it inline text again. How should we precede from here? (P.S. Is this the right forum for this request?) Ar2332 (talk) 08:16, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ar2332, this is indeed a right forum for this request, and I am curious what High Leader has to say to motivate their actions. Please note however that you are required to notify them of this thread. I have done it for you now, but you re expected to do it yourself in the future.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:34, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Any quotation from a source (even if public domain) needs to be properly attributed. In my opinion, a three sentence quotation does not need block quotation formatting, as long as it is attributed properly. It makes no difference whether a properly attributed quote of this length is denoted by normal quotation marks or by block quote markup. That is a matter of editorial judgment, and is not a policy issue. Cullen328Let's discuss it08:43, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
But if I understand the complaint correctly, the quote (which is btw in the lede of the article) is not attributed and not marked as quote, but just resides in the article as part of the prose. This is copyright violation, and we typically remove such quotes and revision-delete the edits.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:09, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I quoted and then cited the quote to the relevant source (which was already in the article). I don't like the big quote making up most of the lead 'graph, though. It should probably just be summarized. —[AlanM1(talk)]—07:10, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Marnie Hawes is a disclosed paid editor on behalf of perennial political candidate Rocky De La Fuente. (She used to have a userbox on her userpage disclosing that she works for Upwork, a freelance editing marketplace, but she replaced it with two boxes naming specific clients, Josh Rimer and De La Fuente. In September she created a page abour Rimer, but it was AfDed.) She has been editing De La Fuente’s page since October 1. On October 13 she was challenged and counseled on her talk page,[190] and in reply she claimed that she was editing as a volunteer.[191] However, she added a paid disclosure userbox to her user page on October 17, 2019.[192]. She continued to edit De La Fuente’s page. On October 31 I counseled her about the COI guidelines and the need to use the talk page before editing.[193] I did not realize that she had been counseled previously. She continued to edit his page directly, and has not used the talk page except to reply when her edits were challenged. On November 10 she added material directly to the article,[194] whose accuracy was challenged by another user. On November 13-14 she again added material to the De La Fuente article. [195] IMO she is not abiding by the COI guidelines which have been explained to her twice. Since I am peripherally WP:INVOLVED, I am bringing the situation here for input or action by someone uninvolved. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:29, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It is clear that everytghing short of a block has been tried. She lied om 16 October she is not paid, just to put a notice of paid editing on 17 October. She was pointed to relevant policies including WP:COI but still continued editing the article she has COI, and the edits were problematic. At the very least it should be a several days block with a very clear indication that is she continue the next block would become long-term or infinite. (I did not check the older contributiions, but I somehow assume that if she has several thousand edits some of the contributions must be good, otherwise we just block indef and be done with it).--Ymblanter (talk) 18:52, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Good thought. I checked her older contributions. She has been here since July. Her first contributions were external links and images on subjects which appear unrelated to each other; several edits were immediately deleted but were not vandalism, just determined to be inappropriate. She continued to make minor edits to a variety of articles. Starting in August and through September she used OAbot to add links to literally thousands of articles - by far the great bulk of her edits. This all appears harmless, although there is so much of it, it makes it hard to analyze the contribution history. But some activity kind of smells paid. On September 4 she drafted an article about a software company called Draft:Nascenia and spent several weeks trying to get it approved, but it was rejected several times as not notable. Also in September she successfully created an article about Rutger Hoedemaekers and unsuccessfully created an article about Josh Rimer (that one was acknowledged as paid). Just for what it's worth. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:31, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I also note these edits: [196][197] which constitute spam. It is clear that this user has engaged in blatant dishonesty and has failed to disclose all edits to which they have received payment for. Therefore I am going to terminate their editing privileges - a one-year block and a topic ban from the scope of WP:ARBAP2 as an arbitration enforcement action, and an indefinite block as a normal admin action. MER-C20:01, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Good catch! re Tashdeed. A WP:DUCK double for this editor. As for "sister": Marnie admits on the talk page that Marnie Hawes is a pseudonym and that they are actually Pakistani - and IMO almost certainly male. As for quarantining likely paid-for articles, what do you think about Draft:Nascenia? -- MelanieN (talk) 23:01, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
MER-C, Good call. I was in two minds about this and was about to revisit the articles myself. They were obvious spam, but of a slightly sophisticated kind. Guy (help!) 22:24, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Genre warrior, block evasion and personal attacks at Resident Evil 5
For over a year now a lone genre warrior has been repeatedly vandalising Resident Evil 5. The attacks typically come from a narrow IP range and have included vulgar personal attacks against both myself and my 'family'. A (now deleted) threat of violence extremely similar in language to this post [198] and specifically citing the issue of genre at Resident Evil 5 was left on my YouTube channel (I do not believe the threats are serious and that I am actually in any danger). As evidenced by that post this user is also well aware they are violating POV issues but simply does not care.
Can you please delete that edit above and permanently block that IP address?
As evidenced by my messages on their talk pages, this person has also successfully evaded blocking in the past from switching from this IP address User talk:141.136.207.27, to this one User talk:213.202.81.17.
Damien Linnane, the IPs that you link above are very stale but there are others that have edited the article. No blocks are warranted but I have semi-protected the article for a couple of weeks. In the future you should make requests for protection at WP:RFPP. — Berean Hunter(talk)22:31, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Berean Hunter...I didn't take this to page protection because I wasn't really interested in having the page protected. I was interested in having the IP address that ignored warnings yesterday to stop changing the genre temporarily blocked (especially since these edits are identical to ones that have been happening sporadically for over a year), and I was interested in having the public comments saying that my family should all die deleted.
So just to clarify, you're aware extremely vulgar and intimidating remarks have been made concerning my family, and you're not willing to delete them because it happened last year instead of recently? Damien Linnane (talk) 01:49, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hansaka99 seems to keep recreating Unawatuna Maha Vidyalaya which has been previously deleted via a deletion discussion. It was deleted on 9 November 2019 per the deletion discussion outcome, and then deleted on 11 November 2019 as a recreation. I've just requested speedy deletion as a recreation again. It seems this user has a major interest in this school, possible COI. Steven (Editor) (talk) 01:08, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Steven (Editor), after it's deleted you can make a request at WP:RFPP to request that the page be creation-protected. Of course, there's a decent chance that the deleting admin will notice that this is the third deletion of the page in the past week and will apply the protection themselves. creffett (talk) 01:54, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Creffett, I was actually contemplating about requesting page protection before posting here but then I thought the user may have an interest in explaining why they keep creating this as the multiple tags on their talk page doesn't seem to have had any effect. But why didn't I go with pp dammit haha, this can be closed but whether the user will comment here or not I don't know, we shall see, anyway thank you Steven (Editor) (talk) 02:16, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Home Lander, so I know WP:SALT but didn't know there was a notifying admin template, interesting and now wondering haha — I guess the only question would be if that template would be needed as I think the same as Creffett above, but it does ultimately depend on the deleting admin so adding that template is good. Thank you Steven (Editor) (talk) 02:55, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I tried looking for Unawatuna College and Unawatuna High (I can mega-nerd - see what I did there? - bore you about cognates at length if you want) School, but couldn't find anything that verified its existence. One would assume that a school of its purported importance would have some footprint in English. Happy to un-salt any time that or in Sinhala etc can be found. Admittedly I can understand the appeal of writing about your school: at one stage the Wikipedia page for the main administration block of one of my (four) almae matres topped the Google search for "Sydney's ugliest building". Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 03:30, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Pete and I see haha. Yeah this seems to be a problem with many schools that reside in countries where a lot of the schools don't have a significant online presence, or at least reliable online sources — most of the time it's only directory listings. But if someone is really inclined to get a school on Wikipedia, surely they could look to see if there are any reliable local sources, books or anything that can help establish its notability and provide information that can be verified. Sourcing is important, not just on here but anywhere, because how do we know what is being said is true? Anyway, "Sydney's ugliest building", oh dear oh dear hahaha Steven (Editor) (talk) 20:05, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oddly, the disruption stopped right around the time I opened this complaint. Withdrawn. ―Mandruss☎ 07:34, 17 November 2019 (UTC) Things seem to have settled down – again – and one can hope that will last awhile. Re-withdrawn. I won't make a political statement about the downside of "preventative not punitive". (Woops. I just did.) ―Mandruss☎19:42, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Phil Bridger, please note that the policy language you link to begins: "Editors are encouraged to include current and up-to-date information within its coverage, and to develop stand-alone articles on significant current events." Cullen328Let's discuss it17:43, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's the "within its coverage" that it appears that we differ in our interpretions of (and yes, pedants, I know I just ended this sentence with a preposition). I interpret that to mean events that have been covered by secondary sources, but it seems that our policies have been slowly eroded in that people accept primary sources, such as breaking news reports, as being a valid basis for encyclopedia articles. I do not like that trend, but it seems that it is not worth fighting against it. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:30, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My general read of the chronically-unresolved debate of whether to add or omit victim names in mass shootings, is that when the casualties are few, there is generally consensus to add — when the casualties are many, there is generally consensus to omit. And when it is somewhere in between, it can go either way. El_C17:59, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say that. But, falling short of an overarching guideline, an informal appreciation of this tendency could be useful, to both sides. El_C18:06, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@El C: Said tendency is a matter of opinion. I have argued that if inclusion is more likely when there are just a few victims, it's because of far lower interest and participation in the discussions. Many of those have included just a handful of editors or no discussion whatsoever. Perhaps you could point to one or two cases of few victims, high participation, and consensus to include. ―Mandruss☎18:10, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As the one who, in the last few months, applied more administrative intervention to mass shooting pages (by explicitly invoking the Gun control DS, which went to and was affirmed at ARCA) than any other admin, I view it as being the reality. I'm unsure what the reasons for this tendency are, however. El_C18:27, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@El C: Would you mind clarifying your position, if you have one, as to whether status quo ante should or should not be restored at that article? If it is restored by an admin with a clear warning in their editsum to prevent further disruption, I will happily withdraw this complaint. ―Mandruss☎18:44, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My position is that, until there is an overarching policy on victim lists in mass shooting pages, WP:ONUS should be enforced via the GC/DS, whereby inclusion should be only permitted once there is consensus for the contested material to be added. And that consensus should normally be arrived at via an RfC that is properly closed. That has been my position all along. El_C18:58, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have implemented both points of your opinion at the article, and I will withdraw this when it's clear that will be enough to stop the disruption. ―Mandruss☎19:07, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
At any event, I'm not inclined to enforce ONUS this time like I did in those other articles. It's time another admin had a go at this problematic. El_C19:11, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You want we should go easy on the new guy, boss, or let him have it like you got it in your day? Tough choice, I know, maybe even an ethical quagmire of political intrigue. You don't want your fellow man to suffer, but he has to know the convoluted truth if we're ever to break the wheel. Perhaps any old man is not the admin to liberate Mass Death City and lead Informed Consensual Community in the friendly future. I see new eyes, green eyes, eyes that will stand a thousand years and be rejoiced in song. If it comes to that, don't worry, we'll take real good care of her, nice and neutral-like, you just sit back and watch history unfold. You're welcome to step into my parlour, if I'm troubling you with the nature of my game (it's your standard web of lies but "subverted" to release truth instead). No pressure, mysterious dark horse contender, if you happen to have been watching us conspire all along. Your future, your choice! InedibleHulk(talk) 01:42, November 17, 2019 (UTC)
Re-opening. Same user, same behavior, different day.[212] The discussion has been open for only a day and a half, and it needs considerably more participation and uninvolved close. Locke Cole converted it back to non-RfC after I converted it to RfC per El C's opinion above, thereby reducing the participation to a level where they think they can claim a "growing consensus". I reiterate my request for a preventative block, since it's obvious that the complaint itself has only a temporary effect that evaporates once it's withdrawn. ―Mandruss☎21:50, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As an WP:INVOLVED editor at that article, I have posted at Locke Cole's talk page, asking why they removed the RfC tag. IMO an RFC is exactly the right approach for this article and I am inclined to re-add it, but I wanted first to give him a chance to explain himself. P.S. I did not realize that the RfC was launched at ElC's suggestion. In that case it should certainly be restored. -- MelanieN (talk) 22:39, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@MelanieN: His rationale was in his edit summary: WP:RFCBEFORE. But using RFCBEFORE as a pretense to severely limit further participation after a day and half, just so you can claim that 8-5 is a "growing consensus", is clearly bad faith in my book. Furthermore, that needs uninvolved close because, even more than most issues, we can't simply count !votes on this issue, and it's patently invalid (bad faith or incompetence, take your pick) to claim that your side has stronger arguments and impose your content on the article on that basis. ―Mandruss☎22:50, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
After discussion with Locke Cole I have restored the RfC tag. Whether it was disruptive for him to remove it remains to be decided at this report. -- MelanieN (talk) 01:04, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Update: While the discussion at that article is ongoing, Locke Cole just re-added the names to the page[213] - after implying earlier in the day that he wouldn’t do that because of the 1RR restriction.[214] This new edit was just a few hours past the 24 hour 1RR restriction. Restoring the names is the issue that Mandruss initially brought to this page. In his re-adding this second time, he cited “growing consensus on the talk page.” The current raw count is 8 to include and 5 now 7 to leave out. -- MelanieN (talk) 02:42, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Ajax Coleman - Continuous Disruptive editing after Level 4 Warning.
I and a number of other users have noticed that User:Ajax Coleman has been making a number of disruptive edits, despite numerous warnings. Many of these are major without any sort of explanation, including to a number of Billboard 200 articles. Could someone look into this? Greatly appreciate it. --IanDBeacon (talk) 18:32, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
On Wikipedia, vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a free encyclopedia, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge.
Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism. For example, edit warring over how exactly to present encyclopedic content is not vandalism. — Wikipedia:Vandalism
This is not vandalism, and the report still lacks an explanation why administrative intervention, a last resort, is required here. At very least, it should contain an explanation why the edits are disruptive. It may even have been inappropriate to use rollback for dealing with them. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:25, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Their edits don't look like vandalism, but are disruptive and they have had more than one final warning; they have no contributions to talk page discussions, and are only using edit summaries for page moves. Peter James (talk) 22:21, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Please also see this user's disruptiveedits to List of Paramount Pictures films and related. After I split the obscenely large (409,560 bytes) list into 12 sub-lists (one per decade of the studio's existence, which absolutely needed to be done), Ajax attempted to merge these into two lists (one per century) of 330,191 bytes (still way too big) and 81,552 bytes (would become way too big in a few short years).
I am sorry for what I did by editing on the changes on Billboard number-one lists without explaining. I just wanted to separate the page List of Billboard 200 number-one albums of 1963 into two distinguished the main Billboard 200 era and the Pre-Billboard 200. The page List of Billboard 200 number-one albums of 1963 will only contain number-one albums that stayed on the top spot from August 17 to December 28 while the other (new) page will contain number-one albums January 5 to August 10. Please give me a chance to edit on Wikipedia and I will do better next time.--Ajax Coleman — Special:Diff/926569293
I guess the removal of my message indicates they received it, and the note on the other user's page is a step in the right direction. Maybe "wait and see" might be a good next step. It has the feel of a new user discovering talk pages for the first time. ~Awilley (talk)22:48, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Dispute in Talk page with editor involving persistent incivility and refusal to listen
I have been (and unfortunately still am) having a dispute in the Talk page of the Horn of Africa page for a while not with another editor USER:Dalhoa about several issues. From the beginning they have approached me with, what I believe to have been, incivility (assuming my personal motivations, making accusations and attributing/assuming ill will, and a generally aggressive, hostile, and combative approach) and have persisted in doing so. I ended up compromising with them on most issues and agreeing to their preferences (in part to end the conflict, since it was going nowhere and I felt the issues to be minor enough). I had earlier began a dispute resolution request, but decided that I preferred to compromise and avoid getting a third party involved and cancelled it (hoping and believing that that the dispute was then over.). On one last issue, however (regarding the classification of a prehistoric human fossil by the scientist Chris Stringer and its inclusion in a relevant part of the page), I do not wish to do that (to simply let the other editor have their preference) and I have repeatedly explained my reasoning to them and feel that that reasoning is being ignored (although at one point it seemed that we had reached an agreement which seemed to be inexplicably retracted) and that I am again being attacked (being accused of agendas and ideologies that I do not hold — relentless accusations that to me do not make sense and that I do not understand, and which I have tried to respond to with no success). I am not sure what to do. Here is the dispute/discussion for reference:
https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Talk:Horn_of_Africa#Jebel_Irhoud_in_Morocco_obsession
and the article's edit history:
https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Horn_of_Africa&action=history
Any help is appreciated. Thank you. Skllagyook (talk) 22:30, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There had been a case request filed at DRN by the original poster here, and then they asked whether they could withdraw it, but now they have filed here. I will be closing the DRN case as pending in another forum, WP:ANI. After this case is resolved, any survivors can refile at DRN if a content dispute is remaining. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:01, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The bot that has been removing a photo in a draft...
I am here to report a bot, JJMC89 bot, who has been removing a photo on Draft:WSVW-LD. DizzyMosquitoRadio99 has been explaining that it was a free use logo for WSVW-LD, but the bot kept reverting it. Cheers! CentralTime30122:47, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
But it's not tagged as free use. It clearly has a non-free license rationale, which is not allowed in the Draft space. The bot is doing it's job correctly. The bot is clearly linking to WP:NFCC#9 which states this. -- ferret (talk) 22:50, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
First, this shouldn't be at AN/I. Second, DizzyMosquitoRadio99 has not claimed that the image is free; in fact, they explicitly claim that it is non-free. Third, it is a policy violation for either of you to add/restore a non-free image to a draft, which is clear from the bot's edit summary. — JJMC89 (T·C) 23:08, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
CentralTime301 has previously been advised about NFCC#9 and non-free content use before not too long ago both here and here. They've also received warnings from others about inappropriately filing reports at ANs and inappropriately warning other editors. There's also WP:THQ#How can I get rollback rights? where CentralTime301 queries why they's not being granted roll back rights, even though multiple requests were denied. CentralTime301 seems to be enthusiastic about trying to help out, but I'm wondering if they have enough experience at editing at this time to be focusing on issuing warnings, etc. For example, this uw seems a bit bodd, not because the other person wasn't edit warring, but because they had already been warned twice for doing so, the last time five minutes prior to CentralTime301 adding their warning. There's also User talk:DizzyMosquitoRadio99#Readding WSVW-LD logo which shows more unfamiliarity with WP:NFCC by suggesting that a draft should be moved (perhaps prematurely) to mainspace simply to stop the non-free file from being removed by the bot, which seems to be a case of putting the cart before the horse. Perhaps it would be better for CentralTime301 to focus more on editing articles and gaining experience in how policies and guideline are applied; they seem to be suffering from a case of WP:ADMINITIS in trying to increase their edit count in certain areas in the hope that they will be able to get to be allowed to use certain tools. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:01, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
CentralTime301 edits may need a closer review
I think a closer examination of CentralTime301 adding of user warnings and use of Twinkle may be warranted. If this needs to be in its own discussion thread then feel free to move it to one.
Looking at their contribution history, it does appear that "cleanup" is their primary focus. There's nothing wrong with this per se, and may editors are WP:GNOMEs; however, I think it has to be done a bit carefully and that there should be edit summaries left explaining why so that others don't have to guess as to the reason. For example, they warn RHaworth with a {{uw-delete2}}here, but then self-revert the warning two minutes later here. No edit summary was left explaining why the warning was self-reverted, but perhaps this was just a simple case of mistaking one editor for another; however, after looking at the page history for UNC-TV, RHaworth hasn't ever edited the article at all. It also is a bit odd that CentralTime301 would revert an edit to that article that Rhaworth was warned about here, but then once again self-revert almost immediately without leaving an edit sum. The time stamps show that CentralTime301 actually warned RHaworth for edit he didn't actually make before they actually tried to cleanup the the problem edit, and then promptly self-reverted their cleanup attempt.
Another example is this "rollback-like" revert here to KDHU-LD using Twinkle which undid a number of intervening edits (including some made by CentralTime301 themselves) to return the article back to a May 2019 version. No explanation given for the revert so no way to tell why it was made, or why the other IPs version was correct.
Although I've never used it, I understand that Twinkle can help clean up vandalism, etc. a bit quicker, but this edit made to "KDHU-LD" was not vandalism and the edits CentralTime301 reverted which were made by IP 107.77.169.5 to the same article also don't seem to be vandalism. It appears that in their eagerness to be recognized as a vandalism fighter by other editors and be granted certain user rights like WP:ROLLBACK that CentralTime301 might be being a bit too eager. -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:14, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Just want to clarify that warning was issued to RHworth for an edit they made to WUNC-TV which redirects to UNC-TV. RHworth redirected the page which is what apparently triggered the "uw-delete2" warning. However, there was an edit summary left stating that the page was redirected. The page had actually been set up as a redirect to the UNC-TV before CentralTime301 time tried to develop it as a separate article here, which is OK, but was then redirected. No idea whether a redirect is warranted, but it would be something better discussed on the article's talk page than issuing a user warning about. — Marchjuly (talk) 03:34, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:Ythlev mass removing native language info from articles
Without any discussion, User:Ythlev suddenly started a campaign to mass remove native language information from numerous Taiwan-related articles, in contravention to MOS:FORLANG, see [215][216][217], etc. The user refused to stop even after I asked them to do so, and instead edit warred to keep their undiscussed mass changes. While at their talk page, I noticed that Ythlev had just recently been blocked for edit warring. -Zanhe (talk) 23:39, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There is no requirement to discuss edits before there are shown to be controversial. The above user reverted a few of my edits without attempting to discuss the issue. After the user wrote on my talk page, I had stopped making new edits, but before I could respond, the user continued to edit war without intention to discuss. Ythlev (talk) 23:47, 16 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not only are your mass removals undiscussed, they are in violation of MOS:FORLANG and MOS:CHINESE. Instead of discussing the merit of your edits when I pointed this out to you (both in edit comments and on your talk page), you kept reverting all my edits that returned the articles to status quo ante, in contravention to WP:BRD. -Zanhe (talk) 00:05, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't violate jack. None of them are Chinese proper names, so not MOS:CHINESE. MOS:FORLANG says they can be included, not must. MOS:FOREIGN: "Foreign words should be used sparingly." WP:BRD: "Consider reverting only when necessary. BRD does not encourage reverting" You continued to edit-war immediately after writing of my talk page before anyone could reasonably have time to respond. Ythlev (talk) 00:15, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You had no time to respond, but had time to revert all my edits? Most of the involved articles have been reverted to your preferred versions right now (a notable exception being Cross-Strait relations, where you were reverted by TheEpTic). -Zanhe (talk) 00:31, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The probably best option is to cool down and wait. Remember, you don't have to respond immediately. Edit warring, or even attempting to discuss, at this very moment is only likely to heighten the drama. If edit warring continues, both users involved in this dispute will be blocked. UnnamedUser (insecure) (talk) 06:33, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Cute logic but the fact is that people who do mass changes and then edit war to keep them are extremely disruptive, not to mention irritating. Being bold is one thing, but Ythlev should not also be belligerent. Johnuniq (talk) 23:32, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think it actually appears now that multiple users have disagreed with Ythlev, which indicates but does not prove that the community opinion is against him. We can take the discussion to another discussion area to reach a consensus for the interpretation of policy. Even if Ythlev disagrees with the consensus, he should not go out of his way to go against it without discussing. I've seen from his talk page that he's been a particularly problematic user, so we might do something more the next time a similar incident involving Ythlev is brought here. UnnamedUser(open talk page)
I request de-adminship, due to severe abuses of power.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Having looked around, I think this should be the right place to put this, but the information is not entirely clear, so forgive me if I'm mistaken. Also, I'm not as concise as I'd like to be, so this might get a bit lengthy. Sorry about that.
On the 25:th of October, I was blocked for a week, by Bbb23. (diff1)
Why? I have no idea.
As instructed, I consulted WP:GAB to appeal.
There I was instructed that I must first know why I was banned, and should therefore ask the admin who banned me, in my talk page (with a ping, to make certain they notice). Thus I did so. I also took a look at their talk page and contributions, to try to glean some clues, as to why they would have banned me. All I found, that might be relevant, was a revert of an edit of mine (which was made very shortly before my ban), which I pointed out to be something that is verified in the templates of the article (though not in the line I added, as per MOS:CITELEAD) and quite in line with Wikipedia rules and guidelines.
According to WP:GAB, admins are expected to answer such questions. Expected to clarify their reasons ...as per Wikipedia:Administrators#Accountability. After all, if they can ban people, without any kind of explanation, then they are effectively able to abuse their power, however they like, with not a shred of accountability.
...and yet, rather than giving an answer, he instead banned me from even editing my talk page.
The actions that WP:ADMIN cites, as bad behaviour, that could lead to an admin being sanctioned and/or de-admined for, are: ""Bad faith" adminship" (which, even with the greatest of Assumption of Good Faith, this would appear to be), "Breach of basic policies (attacks, biting/civility, edit warring, privacy, etc.)" (and I'd say this clearly goes against WP:PA, WP:CIVIL, possibly WP:BITE...) as well as "Failure to communicate" (this is clearly inarguable)
After some days (five days into my seven day ban), I noticed that my IP changed, so I repeated my request for an explanation (on his talk page, this time), this time pointing out that it must be answered, and also how his subsequent behaviour was a clear example of abuse of power.
I did this after making an AfD that I had been intending to do (after checking WP:AfD) before I was banned, as well as a slightly improved version of the previously mentioned edit that was reverted, with an edit summary pointing out why it is warranted. (the diff is between my first edit, and another one that adds a slight improvement, so it's the first/previous edit summary shown, that I am refering to) Then I also made a reply, to a discussion on WP:SPEEDY.
Also, after my request/demand to Bbb23, I made a comment to JzG, who closed the above mentioned discussion, after that one reply (I had two more I was going to make, but...) based on the fact that it was brought up by someone who is banned (i.e. me). I pointed out that it was an invalid ban, with no reason given, and that closing the discussion (which no one in the discussion, appeared to have any problems with. Disagreements, yes but not problems) was, aside from seeming rather ad hominem-y, no more than going along with and strengthening said abuse of power.
I was then banned again. By User:Ched, this time. For two weeks. (he also deleted what I wrote to JzG)
For block evasion.
This I could at least understand, though I will proceed to explain my issues with it.
Again I was told I could consult WP:GAB to appeal.
Advise that, by now, ringed rather hollow.
I pinged him, telling him I had lost trust in WP:GAB, as it is clearly worthless, if admins don't follow the rules. I explain how my initial ban was utterly unexplained, and hence clearly invalid. I also point out that I hadn't intentionally broken the rules (see WP:BITE), and there is no mention of what I had done, as being against the rules, when I checked ...but it still goes against the spirit of the rule (and the rules are supposed to be principles, with the principle, the spirit of the rule, being paramount) ...but that I had a hard time having any respect for the rules, when the admins don't. I don't get why I should respect a ban, that is so obviously invalid, and breaks the rules.
Did I get an answer to that?
No.
What I got, was Bbb23 coming in again, and not only blocking me from editing on my talk page, again, but also removing everything I had managed to state, so far. (and he also removed my repeated question about why he banned me, from his talk page) Also having User_talk:Ivanvector do a range block on me, apparently.
Now that it's been more than two weeks, and I can edit again, I feel I must say this:
If the policies, rules, and guidelines of Wikipedia aren't merely a farce, then behaviour such as this, cannot be allowed to stand. Admins cannot just break the rules and be completely unaccountable.
After all, if admins can decide what rules they want to follow, and which they'll break, if they can punish editors for breaking rules, regardless of whether or not they really have (or, in the case they have, if it's that severe an infraction), without any attempt at communication first, and certainly not after...
Then the rules are essentially meaningless. All that matters, is the arbitrary and capricious whim of admins. Not the rules. "Might makes right", essentially.
That is very much at odds, with the supposed policies, purpose, aim, and goals of Wikipedia and every part of the Wikimedia Foundation.
Given all this, I fervently urge for to de-adminship of Bbb23.
I'd also argue for sanctions against every other admin I have mentioned here. You might argue that User_talk:Ivanvector merely acted in good faith, trusting the judgement of Bbb23 (and not looking into it any deeper), but the rest were informed (by me) of the issues, asked for reasons, yet refused to communicate, in any way shape or form, so I fail to see how they are not equally culpable.--213.113.121.42 (talk) 03:05, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Drmies, as you know, Wikipedia operates on Universal Coordinated Time, in which it is already tomorrow, so you are free to use your November 17 quota for blocks. But just to make it easy, because this IP has admitted throughout this discussion that they're evading a block and have already started participating in unrelated project-side content discussions, I have blocked them. IP, for your blocked account with talk page access revoked, you will need to log in to your account and then appeal to WP:UTRS. I'll also advise you of this on your user page if I can figure out what your account is, but I'm getting started here since you didn't say who you are. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 03:54, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ivanvector, you are correct. Then again, I operate not really on anyone's time schedule but my own, and I think we can all agree I've done plenty of blocking in this last stretch. If only I had blocked at least one of those two meaty men who knocked down Tua. Drmies (talk) 03:58, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Changed [ He is credited 25 confirmed kills ] to [ He is credited with 25 confirmed kills ].[222]
Changed [ was an American athlete, triple gold medal winner in 4 × 100 m relay ] to [ was an American athlete and triple gold medal winner in 4 × 100 m relay ].[223]
Changed [ nicknamed the "Midnight Express" ] to [ nicknamed The Midnight Express ].[224]
Yeah, I saw some of that the other day, but I was still suffering from Anthony22 fatigue. In my view it's past time for (1) the simpler, harsher ban I suggested last time around, which would still allow contribution in areas not directly involving article prose, or (2) indef. ―Mandruss☎06:08, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't participate in it, but I have to agree that Ninja's initial prediction was correct - this TBAN is so broad as to always be immensely tough to both comply with and implement. In any case, I'm happy to support an indef if we're carrying the discussion on or leaving it to a future admin to decide if an unblock is viable in the probably distant future. Perhaps if and when they do, a different TBAN set of criteria should be considered. Nosebagbear (talk) 11:36, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I had noticed the violations too and almost blocked on my own yesterday...the violations were pretty blatant, not even trying to respect the ban. Indef is the next logical step. It's too bad the ban was necessary, but Anthony22 was so completely unwilling to engage in solving the problem on his own that there weren't many other options. ~Awilley (talk)22:52, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
His or her (since Anthony22 claims to take offences at being assumed male) last talk page post makes it clear that Anthony22 had no intention of obeying the topic ban. Meters (talk) 22:58, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Post block behavior
Anthony22 is once again threatening to engage in sockpuppetry:
"Concerning my topic ban, I could have a large extended family and several friends who would let me edit Wikipedia on their personal devices. Would you be able to recognize my modus operandi?"[225]
He is unlikely to appeal his block (he didn't appeal the last four blocks), so I propose that his talk page access be revoked so that he no longer has a forum for his attention-seeking. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:39, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Guy Macon - that seems reasonable, if unfortunate. Based on his past editing behavior that led up to the topic ban, it does seem likely that we would be able to recognize [his] modus operandi -- a flurry of low quality grammatical tweaks and nitpicky arguments and a steadfast adherence to WP:IDHT. Omanlured (talk) 14:34, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure what if anything should be done here. IP is claiming to be the subject of the article and is deleting "lies" which are sourced. Can someone please review this and see if it warrants admin intervention? EvergreenFir(talk)06:37, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Lord Roem, good call, I've upped this to PC on the simple basis that not many people watch this article and he's been on InfoWars pushing the "russia hoax" BS so it is higher profile than might otherwise be the case. Guy (help!) 01:11, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a user who has been edit warring periodically since mid-2017 to promote herself and right great wrongs, using multiple IPsocks after the block of two registered accounts. I am calling for a formal community ban.
User:Aralia Fresia was blocked in May 2017 for BLP violations and creating inappropriate pages. Their sockpuppet account User:Lara Nicole Daskivich was created in July 2017 in order to create a user page (long since deleted as a web host violation) and after that the account was dormant until February 2018 when it was used for this edit and almost immediately blocked as a sock.
A quick look at the edit histories of the articles 57th & 9th and I Can't Stop Thinking About You show a number of IPsocks; specific diffs include [226], [227], [228] (see edit summary there), [229] (borderline revdel material for BLP violations), [230] (which claims to source the info, but doesn't), [231] (to a different article than the two that are normally targetted). She has also used IP talk pages and article talk pages as soapboxes, e.g. here and here
Back in 2018, I and others tried to explain policies such as WP:V and WP:RS to this user, for instance at the Teahouse and at User talk:174.30.11.118. This is a case of WP:CIR and WP:IDHT and the person clearly has no intention of making constructive edits, or any edits at all that don't promote herself.
The reason I ask for a community ban now is because the user has posted to User talk:63.155.97.235 (using that IP) and to User talk:Lara Nicole Daskivich (using that account) today asking to be unblocked to "get credit for some lyrics", and has yet again taken the time of good-faith users who have had to dig into the user's history in order to reply. Converting the indef block into a community ban will make things easier – I'd argue that per WP:3X she should already be considered to be de facto banned, but I don't think there have been any CU investigations since the socking has always been so blatant. --bonadeacontributionstalk12:01, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Joseph Rowe(talk·contribs·deleted contribs·logs·filter log·block user·block log)
The user is (being polite) disingenuous to an extreme. Here [[232]] the edit summery claims Guy Macon agrees with the distinction (and thus the edit), yet over at the talk page Guy Macon posted this [[233]] and Rowes defense is to say he never made the claim [[234]]. And continues to deny he ever made the claim Guy Macon supported his text [[235]]. In addition over at Talk:Conspiracy theory the users dis-ingenuousness is getting to the stage of wp:tenditious appealing to "common sense" [[236]], claiming users are just impulsively undoing his edits [[237]], Accusing users of wanting to wish to obfuscate "facts". [[238]].
I think it is clear that not only do we have a case I am not hearing this, but of agenda driven POV pushing of a very disingenuous (if not dishonest) kind.Slatersteven (talk) 12:39, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I vigorously deny being either dishonest or disingenuous. And I believe that anyone who reads my words carefully will be led, like me, to wondering whether those who accuse me of either of those things just might be motivated, not by any serious desire to protect the values of the community, but to punish me for my arguments themselves, to which they are hostile — which would itself be a form of psychological dishonesty on their part — in other words, a projection. I was absolutely not disingenuous, though perhaps I was a bit careless, in assuming that people will read what I say carefully... AND follow my own suggestion to look at the discussion on my talk page! If they had bothered to do that, it would have become abundantly clear that the editor in question is anything but a supporter of mine, but that we had managed at least to agree on the distinction I mentioned, which for me was a compromise. I didn't think I had to spell it out for careless readers, and say "... but even though they agree with the distinction, that doesn't necessarily mean they'll agree with the act of putting it into the opening remarks on the entry page, though I am hoping that the person will at least not block this compromise." Also, I confess I didn't know about the policy of notifying an editor when one discusses them. I'll do that from now on (though it happened to be unnecessary in this case, since the person in question was keeping close track of the controversy).Joseph Rowe (talk) 14:14, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Can you learn to WP:Indent please? I was wondering why on earth you were talking about yourself as being disingenuous to the extreme. I could change it myself, but I don't like messing with people's indenting since I've had a number of cases where people have incorrectly changed my indenting. Nil Einne (talk) 14:27, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I had a quick read of your response and all I can say is accusing experienced editors of dishonesty let alone psychological projection rarely ends well. I haven't really looked into the original complaint, but your response here is enough to suggest to me your editing is probably a problem. Nil Einne (talk) 14:35, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And now accusations of Tag teaming [[239]] as well as more falsehood, I cannot see where anyone called him a megalomaniac, though the indentation makes it hard to know who they are replying to.Slatersteven (talk) 15:21, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Alas, Joseph Rowe is engaging in conspiracist ideation and is accusing other editors of a conspiracy against him:
"...they don't want readers to know"
"...hidden agenda..."
"...motivated, not by any serious desire to protect the values of the community, but to punish me for my arguments."
"When a band of people get caught up in that mindset, it's called fanaticism."
"...attempt to discredit dissent by dismissing dissenters as lone deviates."
"I'm not going to stop exposing the ... well, to be very polite, the misguided mission of the little minority clique."
Finally, I noticed one thing Joseph Rowe wrote in passing:
"I suspect that at least some of these people (I don't say all) have a huge need for security, in the form of a handy polemical stick, with which to beat away uncomfortable challenges (such as those offered by film-maker Oliver Stone)"
Yes, that Oliver "JFK conspiracy deniers are in denial"[240] Stone.
Admins be advised that Joseph Rowe has been notified of the discretionary sanctions in place for pseudoscience and conspiracy related topics as seen in this edit, therefore you are free to consider using the artillery here if you need to. TomStar81 (Talk) 19:49, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Indef - https://xtools.wmflabs.org/ec/wiki.riteme.site/Joseph%20Rowe tells the whole story here. I am sure he could be helpful if he wanted to be but he tries to insert fringe-supportive material and then throws his toys out of the pram when we don't realise his peerless wisdom. It's pointless trying to educate him because that is pretty much all he has ever done: arrived to advance a POV and make a lot of noise when he fails. Guy (help!) 22:34, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Do nothing for now. Joseph Rowe has indicated on his talk page that he will be more careful about saying that other people support an edit, and I don't see any other sanctionable behavior at this time. I talked it over with all the other members of The Cabal Whose Function Is To Attempt To Discredit Any Dissent Which Is Apparently Too Much Of A Strain For Certain People To Debate By Using Only Reason And Facts (TCWFITATDADWIATMOASFCPTDBUORAF),[241] and the consensus was to do nothing for now, close this, and see what his future behavior is like per the law of holes. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:53, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Guy Macon, if you look at his few contributions, they mainly consist of two cases where he's tried to make an edit that advances a fringe agenda, been rebuffed, told everyone they are wrong about policy, and then huffed about how he is not going to waste his time explaining to everyone why they are wrong if they are not going to accept him as final arbiter. The signal to noise ratio is exceptionally low. Guy (help!) 23:54, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I was about to say the POV pushing has now opened on a new front. Ironically I would have no issue with a link to that page, but not with the blatant attempt to POV push with editorializing. I do not think this is going to go away, just move on to other articles.Slatersteven (talk) 09:42, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Long term increasing POV and OR editing of List articles re Palestine.
Sorry, but this presentation is longwinded and somewhat unintelligible. At any case, AE would be a better venue to request enforcement of ARBPIA violations. So you are welcome to do that (don't forget to observe the word limit). Thanks. El_C18:28, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have posted ANI notice at @AuH2ORepublican: user talk page.
Before 31 October, 2019 I did not edit, I was not involved with nor did I know any of the usual editors of any of the following articles. On that date I entered the discussion at List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Asia and was subsequently lead to investigate related articles.
This is not a content dispute, there are content issues arising which are being dealt with at the level of individual articles in the usual way.
Adding Palestine back in; placing in italics and without numbering as in case of other states with limited recognition (Kosovo and Taiwan)) & and states with limited international recognition (such as Kosovo, the State of Palestine and Taiwan)
While reverting vandalism, denumbered and italicized Palestine & alters inclusion criteria
Correcting ranks (if there's a 5-way tie for first, the next on the list is sixth, and only generally recognized sovereign states ranked with numbers), and conforming fonts to those of other articles that list countries (bold roman for generally recognized sovereign states, bold italics for states with limited recognition, and roman italics for dependent states
On first visit and first edit denumbered and italicized Palestine (scroll to 53 on the right) "generally recognized" is OR.
Removing Taiwan and Palestine from numbering so as to treat them the same as Kosovo and Western Sahara, the other de facto states whose sovereignty is not generally recognized internationally (but are recognized by more than a handfull of UN member states
This edit overturned 2 years of Palestine being numbered My attempted [restoration 10 Nov, 2019] was immediately reverted with "As you know from the Talk page discussion that you commence here and in a similar article, this has been discussed in numerous articles, and the consensus was that only generally recognized sovereign states are numbered. If you wish to change this, please start a RfD." which is both untrue and OR as well as ignoring the fact of prior long term consensus discussed at the talk page.
In conformity with similar Wikipedua articles, placing Palestine and Western Sahara in separate category from generally recognized sovereign states and de facto states with little or no international recognition)
"generally recognized" is OR, altered section headings to fit, conformity claim is untrue. Appears to be origin of [ANI proceeding] with novice editors.
Only generally recognized sovereign states should be number-ranked; data in CIA Factbook is limited to the WestBank, not to the State of Palestine as a whole; Western Sahara is a sovereign state (albeit with limited recognition), so its name should not be italicized
CIA Factbook lists both West Bank and Gaza, OR- no such term as "generally recognized"); amends inclusion criteria to fit.
+Following this edit, a different editor [reacted 6 October, 2019] "Palestine is recognized as a UN observer state. If Palestine isn't numbered on the list than Vatican CIty shouldn't either, because the Vatican is also only recognized as a UN observer state" reverted the [next day] with "Reverting good-faith edit. Consensus on Wikipedia, in numerous articles, is that Vatican City is a generally recognized soverein state whereas Kosovo, Palestine, Taiwan and Western Sahara are states with substantial, but not general, international recognition. If you wish to try to establish a new consensus, please discuss in the Talk page". On [14 November, 2019] I attempted a return to the prior 22 month long consensus and was reverted [the same day] with "..I now see that SelfStudier added a rank number to Palestine and that his next edit was a self-revert of a different edit. I have removed the number rank from Palestine to restore the status quo ante while the issue is discussed in Talk pages and RfCs." An RFC was established by another unrelated editor (in response to my complaint about Palestine numbering), proposing to number all entities and the discussion there is [ongoing].Content issue aside, note that the editor initially changed a long standing consensus, then when challenged, insisted that a "new" consensus be obtained and that this is a pattern not just limited to this instance.
Apart from these specific edits (and there are others similar), there are relevant (lengthy) commentaries (and there are others):
[8 May, 2018] The statement "..the State of Palestine applied for and was rejected for membership (although the UN did throw it a bone by changing its designation from "non-member observer entity" to "non-member observer state")" is noteworthy,
[11 May, 2019] "the State of Palestine (which was rejected for UN membership and is not recognized by any G7 country or by most other of the largest developed economies, but does enjoy recognition from over 100 UN members)",
[14 May, 2019] "The State of Palestine applied for membership in the UN, and its application was rejected; the UN converted the PLO's status as an "observer entity" to an "observer state" status for the State of Palestine as a consolation prize. While over 100 UN members recognize the State of Palestine as a sovereign state, these are disproportionately developing countries, and it is not recognized by any of the G7 nations, nor, indeed, by most large, developed economies. Moreover, the State of Palestine does not have a unified government that rules over its two, noncontiguous, territories (Gaza and the West Bank). I also fail to see how it complies with NPOV to treat the State of Palestine differently from the Republic of Kosovo, which has never been rejected for UN membership (nor applied for it) and whose sovereignty is recognized by over 100 UN members, including by all seven G7 countries (US, UK, Germany, Japan, France, Italy and Canada) plus Australia, Netherlands, Belgium, South Korea, Denmark, New Zealand, Austria and others, as well as by 23 out of the 28 members of the European Union. Palestine and Kosovo are very similar cases, and, if anything, Kosovo has a better claim to general international recognition than Palestine.",
There is a less obvious issue that needs explanation. It will be noted above that editor frequently refers to the limited recognition of Palestine but never to the roughly equal level of recognition of Israel. One might expect that when Palestine is "demoted" into a second or third tier of limited recognition then Israel ought to follow. Editor avoids this by redefining UN member states (which include Israel) as "generally recognized" sovereign states in a circular (as well as being OR) definition (UN states do not need any alternative definition) and only then reclassifying Palestine as some lesser recognized entity.List of states with limited recognition refers.--— Preceding unsigned comment added by Selfstudier (talk • contribs)
You don't really expect anyone to read this unsigned mess, do you? Also, you failed to notify at least one of the other editors you refer to.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:59, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I did not realize that I had to notify the editors that I had mentioned only in passing, I have now notified those two, I don't think there were any more than that. I am open to suggestions as to how it might be made less of a mess, it caused me some difficulties because it involves multiple articles and talk pages.Selfstudier (talk) 18:15, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Bbb23 It is not a mess and try to be nice with other editors, just because you are an admin doesnt mean that you can disrespect editors work like that, he obviously worked hard to write all of this. You just survived a report about abusing your adminship.
I agree with self-studier, I have been participating in some of these discussions and I think AuH2ORepublican doesnt have any sold argument and just keeps reverting. He keeps changing the goalpost and making accusations like the time he asked us "Why are we focusing on Israel?" and that this shows "bias" somehow that comment provoked me. It was obvious that time that AuH2ORepublican got no argument.--SharabSalam (talk) 16:23, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Lepss and ShursBibik are Confirmed. AkberBruh1 is Possilikely (a mix between possible and likely). Hris Asnv is Unrelated.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:46, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Need other eyes to look at new JohnReed 1917. I don't know how it works at Wikipedia for an outside media source to solicit an interview with a Wikipedia editor, let alone one they've engaged in an edit war with. The other is more COI related. Per request at WP:RFPP from @David Gerard:, I have put a 3-month Full Protection on Statue of Lenin (Seattle) to halt the edit war. So, that part of this is taken care of. My question is about JohnReed 1917 who advertises himself on his user page as a frequent contributor to Russian media or Russian-oriented media. The only Wikipedia article he's edited has been the Statue of Lenin, so it does appear he created the account specifically for that purpose. If everything is fine with that account, then it is. I just think it's good to have others take a look. Thanks. — Maile (talk) 18:43, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Three months of full protection seems like an extreme reaction to the disruption of a single WP:NOTHERE editor, who admits on his user page to being intentionally disruptive in order to find a suitable interview subject. I'd advocate unprotecting the page and blocking the editor. – Levivich19:38, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm all for an indef block per NOTHERE. JohnReed 1917's edits are not good--they're amateurish, poorly written, and the sourcing is lousy. (We get links to online dictionaries to explain the word "monument"? And one to some website, MintPress News, whose reputation is lousy? And that website should support a silly non-sequitur about what someone said who oddly linked the statue with Putin's imperialism?) Did I read correctly that they first made changes without sources to see what the response would be, and then added sources that the Ivy League would accept? (Sorry, dude, I don't accept your website links in Freshman Comp, in my average regional satellite campus.) And all this for what? A social experiment? Block em, Maile66. And no, no interview with me. Drmies (talk) 20:01, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Drmies: I hear faint echoes of, "Book em, Danno!" :-) @Levivich: and Drmies I'm for the idea of releasing the block, and indef on NOTHERE. I'll just wait a little bit and see if anyone else comments. One of my thoughts, is that this seems like advertising, trolling, or an open door to personal information about whoever would go to the links or dial the phone number. — Maile (talk) 20:15, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Maile66, I agree it looks like all three. Perhaps best to err on the side of caution and efficiency, remove the advertising, and revdel (or OS?) the personal contact information. Thank you for taking the time to mop up this mess! – Levivich20:21, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Levivich. JohnReed 1917 has come to this encylopedia with an axe to grind, a disruptive agenda, and a poor understanding of how Wikipedia works, especially in the area of referencing and what constitutes reliable sources for various assertions. For example, he cites dictionary definitions of "monument" in support of his assertion that this particular statue is a monument, rather than sources that actually call this statue a monument. He cites international treaties for changing from Communist Czechoslovakia to Czechoslovak Socialist Republic. I happen to agree with that particular change but it is a matter of editorial judgment and such citations are out of place in an article about a statue/monument in Seattle. The editor, who claims to be a journalist, is weak on certain facts, calling Fremont a suburb of Seattle for example, when it is actually a neighborhood fully within the Seattle city limits. His user page promotes his off-Wikipedia journalistic work rather then describing his plans and goals as a Wikipedia editor. His remarks on his own talk page indicate some sort of pre-planned social engineering experiment for the purpose of writing an article in some unknown publication about this incident. His writing is vague and confusing in many ways. He has not commented at all on the article talk page. I recommend a block until he agrees to adhere to policies and guidelines, improve his referencing, and engage in article talk page discussion. Cullen328Let's discuss it20:23, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I'm aware this has closed, but: 3 months of full protection is overkill, even for the most intractable content disputes. I can't frankly imagine any situation where 3 months of full protection would be warranted. Even if to let an extremely contentious RfC run, most would finish before 3 months are up. Protection should be lowered, and with all respect to Maile, admins should know to apply only the minimum protection necessary to prevent disruption. Captain EekEdits Ho Cap'n!⚓20:43, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Lewis E. Carpenter, an English teacher in Poprad originally from Issaquah, Washington, found the monumental statue lying in a scrapyard with a homeless man living inside the hollow statue.
I think envelopes might be a better word than supports here. Apparently he takes them into his bosom. Literally. EEng01:01, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I have already reported a small range of the IPv6 before in relation to these changes, but Big Enough is not the only page the person behind these IPs is targeting. Yes, I know they're the same person by both Geolocation and the pages each IP and range targets. Changes include changing release dates, changing recording dates, and adding links unconstructively (i.e. redirect loops and linking to dab pages). Most of these changes are without sources to back such claims. The user is unwilling to discuss changes when reverted and insist on enforcing their change anyway. Applicable protections and pending changes have failed to get them to stop. I have included the IP range in this report as it is almost exclusively used by the anon, but if we wanted specific ranges, they are:
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Harshil169
User:Harshil169 has repeatedly made it difficult for me and other users to collaborate on articles. In originally authoring Criticism of Swaminarayan Sect, he disregarded WP:POVFORK (here) and ignored the consensus of multiple editors (here) by reverting any changes made to the page (1, 2, 3), initiating a sockpuppeting investigation against me which was proven false (here), seeking input from the NPOV Noticeboard without notifying any of the other editors (here), and ultimately requesting a speedy deletion of the article which was denied (here). Throughout this process, he resorted to uncivil language (1, 2).
After this page was merged with the Swaminarayan Sampraday, he had reposted some of the same material that was initially removed by consensus for lack of encyclopedic value. I removed it (here), but he reverted with an ad hominem attack (here), further uncivil language (here), and a warning to topic ban me (here).
Though his user page features a ‘New User’ userbox, he has been around since 2015 and accumulated 3,000 edits as well as warnings from multiple users about his behavior on other pages (here). His page history will reveal more. I have tried to maintain good faith in this editor's intentions, but this history of contention warrants I seek the guidance of ANI on how best to proceed. Moksha88 (talk) 03:36, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I never ignored consensus which have been sorted out properly and with respect to 3O. For instance, I never reinstated question to this consensus in which I and Nizil have been involved and Sara gave 3O as uninvolved. Another thing is whenever user Moksha88 opens discussion in Swaminarayan Sampraday related articles then suddenly Apollo1203, ThaNDNman and Actionjackson comes to canvass discussion.
Recent example is this talk in which first Moksha removes content and opens discussion but never reply back and never cite particular policy about it. And then Apollo comes on the talk page and starts doing personal attack. Also, See this revert with opposite consensus, again this and then this. It is my strong feeling that they are canvassing discussion and never responds from same account. Like, ThaNDNman and Actionjackson never responded back. Therefore, I had opened SPI and checkuser checked their IP addresses by looking their duck type of behaviour. I opened SPI yesterday too and checkuser had to check it by looking same behaviour of other two editors.
Also, I had apologised whenever I made mistake and used language which can be considered offensive. See this.
I have to issue notice when I open discussion against any editor on notice board but I didn't. I just seek opinion on neutrality and I never named any editor on NPOV noticeboard. False claim!
Also, they
These type of vituperative mudslinging certainly proves there are some discussions between these users who were involved in Talk:Morari Bapu and I request to check whether any of them sent any mail to WP:Canvas the discussion or not. I am sure there may be exchange of emails between these users. For this page, I initiated WP:DS and sought WP:3O and suddenly three editors started reverting my content without considering opinion of uninvolved editor Nizil. How this can be possible? Point to be noted that they never responded to my queries and citation of policies apart from this user but they just did it in few minutes before filing this report and after 3 days of when they opened discussion while their history clearly suggests that they were active here. All other accounts became inactive suddenly and never contributed to other articles till now. I request to check their email log so it will be clear that they are canvassing discussion or not. It is fishy that all of them have objection whenever criticism or controversy related to Swaminarayan come.
What I put on my userpage is none of anyother's business. I put new user userbox because I am not aware of all policies and I am still learning. When I will be expert then I will remove it, again, this is not this user's business. --Harshil want to talk?04:20, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Harshil169's response confirms the allegations against him. I have blocked Harshil for one week for disruptive editing, including WP:NPA, retaliatory abuse of process, failure to collaborate, and accusing other editors of misconduct in content disputes. Both SPIs filed by Harshil were retaliatory and without merit. Essentially, Harshil attacks other editors with whom he disagrees in a myriad of different ways. He continues to do so here with his allegation that there is an "exchange of emails between these users" and "a request to check their email log".--Bbb23 (talk) 14:25, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have a few ongoing and past disputes with Harshil and I can validate this observation by Bbb23 that he attacks the editors he has dispute with in different ways. While the dispute was on, I myself was accused of COI by Harshil on two different pages without any evidence of COI shown on his part. Harshil should stop this offensive behavior, if he intends to edit on Wikipedia.--DBigXrayᗙ15:46, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Unsourced genre's from Tamer Gunner
This user keeps adding unsourced genre's to articles despite my repeated warnings and requests to stop. Half an hour after adding this personal plea (and 2nd final warning) to their talk page, the user continued adding unsourced genre's and shows no intent to discuss their edits either. I'd be grateful if an admin could remind them about the importance of sourcing and clear communication. Robvanvee16:31, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I want to address this very specific issue, in very specific way - succumbing to habit of creating too ambiguous and too complicated report, mixing up content and conduct and too many issues at once, have been hard to parse for admins, and got me nowhere in few previous cases. I hope that I will be able to create focused report here.
For starters, I am referring you to look specifically at article history (I won't link here, there is one above), at least form 14 November till now, and I am referring you to read edit-summaries of both editor Ceha and myself. However, although I wanted to avoid extracting some of these edit-summaries here, I strongly felt that I need to do that for better clarity in context with diffs below - I hope it won't get in a way in reviewing this report - it's important.
It would be best if you review "history" first.
14 November - I started new round of edits on page Donji Kraji (as I explained in edit-summary, and it's "important" in context of additional explanations in diffs below: removal of prose and sources without explanation let alone consensus, with regular abuse of edit-summary with accusations of 'vandalism"); than I added new round of prose through several individual edits (edit-summaries: prose per checked and appropriately interpreted existing sources, temp message more comprehensive, geo clarification, and thisprose and several additional more recent academic sources)
15 November - to which editor Ceha responded with revert (edit-summary using conspicuously similar wording as my own: removal of prose and sources without explanation let alone consensus, with regular abuse of edit-summary - to me it feels like condescension and/or ridicule (WP:Civility))
15 November - I used "undo" (edit-summary: you should restrain from blunt provocations, you have talk page for reaching consensus)
15 November - editor reverted me immediately (edit-summary: again Undid revision by santasa done without consensus - note that editor again using conspicuously similar wording to my own previous one).
I ceased. (Note: In all previous encounters editor Ceha would revert my edits with simple "vandalism" cry or "reverting vandal" and similar expressions using "vandal" as key.)
18 November - I used "undo" and restored my edits (edit-summary: prose includes legitimate historian scholarship with legitimate sources properly refed)
18 November - editor continued to revert (again repeating to my own rational from 15 November edit-summary: revision by santasa done without consensus)
18 November - I tried once more (edit-summary: if prose is legitimate historian scholarship properly referenced, consensus isn't obligatory, especially if reverts are otherwise impossible to rationalize)
18 November - editor again reverted (edit-summary, which pretty much I couldn't believe to see: please, talk page, is there any need for this?)
And here's why I couldn't believe in editor's repetition of my own rational, like "consensus" and "talk page"
Now to the Talk page:
I looked at TP and couldn't see any of his initiations, refutations and/or requests for consensus regarding my latest edits, or any edits there for that matter. However, I could see my own discussion intimation from 17-21 July, standing there with editor Ceha barely responding. To my previous attempts to establish decent discussion on everything that is going on there, and where I expressed my concerns comprehensively with evidence, editor responded with one-liners/two-liners repetitions of my own concerns and using my own words - just like in above edit-summaries. I guess it's all "black in white" there unless my mind is playing tricks with me.
Here's how that looks:
I tried to establish communication by expressing my concerns with evidence, point by point:
My initiation (17 July): diff (it's a bit extensive, since I tried to describe all my contentions and concerns, point-by-point)
After this one I simply refused to play fool in editor's game. In essence, I guess it feels as if editor expect me to ask him for permission to edit in articles and on topics which he strongly feels about, as one admin noted in close relation to this very issue.--౪ Santa ౪99°01:02, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Sorry if this isn't the right place to report this, but I've noticed a few usernames that are offensive, very long, and in German, enough so that it appears to be a pattern.
I've blocked a few additional accounts, and they're probably all the same person. They seem to be from and mainly interested in dewiki, which is a bonus. So here just report them to WP:UAA if there's any more. If there's like loads more, and they start causing trouble here, a CU might be able to do something about it. -- zzuuzz(talk)07:53, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
– Levivich 04:52, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Likely to each other, for what it's worth. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:51, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Confirmed. AkberBruh1 is 
Possilikely (a mix between possible and likely). Hris Asnv is 
Unrelated.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:46, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
