Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages/Archive 17

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common term for Japanese and Chinese?

Is there a common term that can apply to both Japanese language and Chinese language? {{Nihongo}} has been forked to {{Hanyu}}. Forking is considered bad. The only differences that I have found are:

Nihongo → Hanyu

Japanese → Chinese

romaji → pinyin

ja → zh

Hepburn → Pinyin

I want to unfork this template by creating common code. To do that it would be nice to have a term to serve as a variable name that can mean either Japanese or Chinese. I can use romanized to replace both of romaji and pinyin. I'm pretty sure that I can hack some sort of term chijap or japchi that will serve, but if there is already an existing term, I'd prefer to use that.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:39, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

CJK? – Uanfala (talk) 18:06, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

I thought about that but so far there is no 'K'...

—Trappist the monk (talk) 18:34, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

CJK would show we support the inclusion of K, just no need so far. — kwami (talk) 09:35, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Aye, it would. But really, if we need to add more languages (in this discussion Greek has been mentioned) then a more universal solution (discuss that elsewhere) is needed.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:23, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Whatever you settle on, just never abbreviate Japan(ese) to "jap". Nardog (talk) 10:26, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for that. For the nonce, jpnchi, a portmanteau of the ISO 639-2 tags for Japanese and Chinese languages.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:23, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

How are the trio Chinese, Japanese, Korean special in this regard? Comparable to

Tokyo Tower (東京タワー, Tōkyō tawā)

for a Greek topic we are no less likely to want to display

Colossus of Rhodes (Κολοσσὸς Ῥόδιος, Kolossòs Ródios)

So why a template just for Japanese and why a template just for CJ or just for CJK? Largoplazo (talk) 11:51, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

My interest in this discussion is to find a common term for Japanese and Chinese because those are the only two languages that have {{nihongo}}-like templates. If there is interest in creating a more universal template that mimics {{nihongo}}, we can talk about that elsewhere.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:23, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to be so specific in what you're looking for. If someone does fork off a Greek template like the Japanese and Chinese ones, will you seek a common name that specifically refers to the trio Chinese, Japanese, Greek but expressly not a general term applicable to all scripts/languages? You won't find one, and even if you did, it would fall apart the instant somebody else forked off an Armenian variant. So forget creating a template that needlessly boxes its use into a very specific pair of languages and go with a generic term that has the potential to cover any language/script combination. And I'm discussing this here because this is in response to you. Largoplazo (talk) 14:41, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Why are you so angry? Did I kick your puppy? Until your post, as far as I know, no one had ever voiced a desire for a {{nihongo}}-like template for another language. As far as I know, the forking of Module:Nihongo to Module:Hanyu was not discussed, it just happened. As I said before, if there is a desire for a more generic solution, we can talk about that. But this discussion is not the right place because a discussion about a generic solution is likely to be long and rambling.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:06, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

I said nothing angry, so I don't know what you're going on about now. Now, can you explain why it's an appropriate place to artificially choose two languages to merge together into one template based solely on the circumstances of the moment but not a place to respond to that by saying it isn't a good idea to lock ourselves in by the very specific happenstance and that it would be better to create a generic solution? This isn't WikiProject Japanese and Chinese, it's WikiProject Languages, so I can't imagine in what sense you believe this isn't the right place. Largoplazo (talk) 15:25, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

To me, everything that you have written in this discussion has overtones of anger, of combativeness. I came here to ask one question. The answer is, apparently, there is no common term for those two languages.

I have never said that WT:LANG is not the proper place to discuss a generic solution to the {{nihongo-for-all}} template if such is desired. I have said that this discussion is not the right place (emphasis added).

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:54, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

You didn't simply ask "I wonder, is there a single term that comprises Chinese and Japanese?" You wrote I want to unfork this template by creating common code. To do that it would be nice to have a term to serve as a variable name that can mean either Japanese or Chinese. I wrote in direct response to that because I disagreed that it would be nice to have a term to use as the name of a template only for those two arbitrary languages. It flatly addressed what you'd written, so of course it was relevant to this section. I don't know why you read anger into that. Since you feel free to read emotions into me, I'm going to return the favor and suggest that you seem to be in an extremely defensive mood today, so sensitive that you can't tolerate any questioning of your proposition or any broadening of the scope of the discussion from your very narrow initial goal. If I'm wrong, well, now you know how it is to have somebody mysteriously attribute emotions and attitudes to you that you aren't having. Largoplazo (talk) 16:12, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

You didn't simply ask "I wonder, is there a single term that comprises Chinese and Japanese?" I did not use exactly those words, but the first sentence in the OP is: Is there a common term that can apply to both Japanese language and Chinese language? That was the question, everything else was an explanation of why I wanted to know the answer.

We all read emotion in every discussion, it is inherent in us to do so, that is why this medium is such a poor way to communicate. Clearly, we are not getting anywhere with this discussion so perhaps it would be best to abandon it?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:44, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

FWIW I don't understand why {{Nihongo}} and similar templates have persisted for so long. Its name and syntax are unclear and it makes the lead a hassle to edit. Any more forking (or merging) is a nightmare if you ask me. Nardog (talk) 00:38, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree. {{Nihongo}} and its relatives try to do too much, and are confusing. They generate both part of the text of a sentence (often the opening sentence of an article) and the parenthesized native script form. At least lang templates or {{zh}} are clearly inside the parentheses in the opening sentence. They've probably persisted so long because Japanese articles are largely in their own world, but now an editor accustomed to them wants to do the same for Chinese. Kanguole 11:22, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

JIPA would like to send us a list of their Illustrations of the IPA for us to link from our language articles -- feedback requested

Presumably in our "External links" section. I think they'd at least need to extract the ISO code, so a wiki bot could follow our existing ISO links to the proper articles. (Though those haven't been updated for years.) The information they supply would be something like the following:

Baima | Pingwu County, Sichuan Province, China | https://doi.org/10.1017/S0025100321000219 | https://www.internationalphoneticassociation.org/sites/default/files/JIPArecordings/Baima.zip

Chukchansi Yokuts | San Joaquin valley, California, USA | https://doi.org/10.1017/S0025100321000268 | https://www.internationalphoneticassociation.org/sites/default/files/JIPArecordings/Chukchansi-Yokuts.zip

Qaqet | Raunsepna, Papua New Guinea | https://doi.org/10.1017/S0025100321000359 | https://www.internationalphoneticassociation.org/sites/default/files/JIPArecordings/Qaqet.zip

Markina Basque | Markina-Xemein, Spain | https://doi.org/10.1017/S0025100322000032 | https://www.internationalphoneticassociation.org/sites/default/files/JIPArecordings/Markina-Basque.zip

For these recent examples, the sound files are freely available but the articles are behind a paywall and for sale (@ US$25). However, JIPA has an agreement with CUP that the articles become freely available after 3 years. I don't know if it would normally be a problem for WP to link to a bunch of pay articles, but we could make a "JIPA" link template that calculates the date and warns the reader it's behind a pay wall if more recent than 3 years, and then disappear.

Can we automatically extract the citation info from the DOI, or would JIPA need to include it explicitly? (We could always post a link without the date or issue, of course, it just wouldn't look very professional.)

What I'd like to be able to tell them is: (a) whether we'd be willing to links to JIPA articles while they're still commercial, and (b) what information JIPA needs to provide to us for us to program a bot to automate those links and to format them appropriately. Right now they're trying to figure out how they can even extract the ISO codes within a reasonable amount of effort.

@Nohat, Lingzhi.Random, M. Dingemanse, Peter Isotalo, Mahagaja, Austronesier, Maunus, WilliamThweatt, N-true, Landroving Linguist, TaivoLinguist, Anypodetos, Erutuon, Nardog, Erinius, and Uanfala: Pinging some people I happen to be familiar with; pardon for leaving anyone out. — kwami (talk) 06:53, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't see how automatic indiscriminate addition of links to illustrations would be justifiable in view of WP:ELNO. Sounds like they're effectively asking us to not only allow spam but do it for them, which is absurd. If an illustration is a source we want to cite, we cite it, but not in External links. Nardog (talk) 07:58, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

I was thinking of this as a general resource, much like our links to Glottolog or the ELP. — kwami (talk) 08:43, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't personally have a problem with incorporating automatic links to the Illustrations of the IPA articles from JIPA. They are good reliable sources that are of consistent quality and academic rigor. The paywall is a problem for me, but as a group we (WP linguist editors) don't seem to mind based on our treatment of Ethnologue, which is behind a paywall as well. We link fairly automatically to Ethnologue. I'm not a fan of the hyperlegality of WP editing and I often run afoul of some subsubsubsubsubsection of some rule that was written to prevent two particular words from occurring together consecutively, so I'll leave that issue to those with a WP law degree. But as far as good sources go, the JIPA illustrations of the IPA are as good as it gets when it comes to focused, topical high-quality sources. Incorporating their list automatically would make their citation consistent. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 08:54, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

There is no problem with linking to sources that are behind a paywall, although we should indicate that status by using the "subscription" code in the url-access field in the citation. - Donald Albury 15:17, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

These are regularly citable scholarly works with supplementary material. If they're not used in the relevant article, they can be added to "Further reading", but then of course with full bibliographical data. I don't this it's commercial ref-spamming since JIPA comes close to being a general resource (paywalled or not). –Austronesier (talk) 20:34, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Taivo, Donald and Austronesier on this. I don't see a problem with JIPA as such, as it is a respectable source. For many languages this may be one of very few reliable sources, so we would include this anyway. And for other languages to include it under further reading has nothing to do with spam. LandLing 02:25, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

I concur it's acceptable so long as it's to add {{cite journal}} (or {{citation}} if the article uses CS2) in the Further reading section (created if absent, following WP:SECTIONORDER) only if the article doesn't already cite it (or one from Handbook). Other than that, no. Nardog (talk) 02:33, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

How would we link to the supplementary material? I don't see any such parameter in the cite journal template. Would we need to add params to the template, or am I just overlooking them? — kwami (talk) 04:34, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

We don't need to. The material is linked from the webpage for each paper. Nardog (talk) 05:30, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that should work fine. We might want to mention in the citation that there's a supplement, but I don't know where to put it.

What of extracting date, volume and page numbers? Can that be extracted from the DOI somehow, or will JIPA need to supply it?

I started a practice citation at Qaqet language, so we can work out exactly how it should be formatted and what info we need. Tomorrow I'll see if doi-access will accept some script to automatically display 'free' after 3 yrs. — kwami (talk) 06:20, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Looks like that will need to be in the template, so maybe best to create a dedicated citation template for JIPA. — kwami (talk) 03:21, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I've created {{Cite JIPA}} to handle this. Qaqet language is the test page. If I enter 2019-08 as the print date, it shows free access through the DOI, and if I enter 2019-09 as the date, it doesn't. That can be manually overridden with doi-access=free if need be, though I haven't added an option for manual 'not free'. Journal etc. are automatically filled in, but can be manually overridden.

I'm waiting for JIPA to get the ISO codes sorted out (needed for the bot to know which articles to edit), then will request a bot to add the citation in a 'further reading' section as recommended above. So there's plenty of time to modify things; please comment if you have issues. — kwami (talk) 06:06, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Umm, your example from Qaqet language with |printdate=2019-08 and |printdate=2019-09:

{{cite JIPA |authors= Tabain, Marija and Hellwig, Birgit |onlinedate= 2022 |title= Qaqet |volume= |issue= |pages= 1-22 |doi= 10.1017/S0025100321000359 |doi-access= |printdate=2019-08}}