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V·T·E

Japanese calendar

Hello! Is there a preferred way or even a template to write old (pre 1873) Japanese dates ("3rd month of 1823" for instance). bamse (talk) 01:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

This subject was discussed in September 2008 here; and since this time, I have been slowly converting the dates in the Japanese era name articles. At the time, I construed this to be the basis of a style-setting agreement, but that may have been been a mistake.

As far as I am concerned, the preferred format is:

Gregorian calendar date followed by Japanese era name in parenthesis and italicized.
As I understand it, the preferred format for the nengō is:
nengō + [cardinal number (year)] + comma + [ordinal number and the word "day"] of the [ordinal number and the word "month"]

Example:

  • December 16, 1707 (Hōei 4, 23nd day of the 11th month)<:!--NengoCalc 宝永四年十一月二十三日 -->: An eruption of Mt. Fuji; the cinders and ash fell like rain in Izu, Kai, Sagami, and Musashi.
  • 1708 (Hōei 5): The shogunate introduces new copper coins into circulation; and each coin is marked with the Hōei nengō name (Hōei Tsubo).
  • April 28, 1708 (Hōei 5, 8th day of the 3rd month)<:!-- NengoCalc 宝永三年三月八日 -->: There was a great fire in Kyoto.
As in the example above, I usually create a hyperlink for the first reference to a specific nengō. When the Gregorian-month+day+year or Nengō-year+day+month is provided by the cited source, I conventionally provide a NengoCalc conversion for the missing mirror-date. As in the example above, I usually verify the conversion by posting hidden text with NengoCalc + the written date from the conversion template.

My opinion represents no definitive answer to this inquiry, but it does become a small step in a process of establishing an explicit Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) format. --Tenmei (talk) 03:04, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Gosei

Is there a better way to handle the disambiguation?

Also, WP:Use English causes me to worry that Gosei (meditation) might not be optimal? Is this one of those rare cases in which non-English is better? --Tenmei (talk) 20:54, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Seems like no single one of the articles mentioned on the disambig page is preferable to the term, so I'd leave it as is. Maybe change Gosei (game) to Gosei (competition) or something? I'm not convinced the meditation one is notable enough to have its own article; perhaps it should be merged into a naval academy article.
Side question - do we really need articles for each nikkei generation? Like, are we eventually going to have a 十四世 or something higher? Seems like it could just be rolled into the Nikkei article. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 23:49, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Annyong -- A different question is this: Do the parsed Nikkei articles precede or follow real world trends?

Reliable sources seem to support the counterintuitive relevance of articles about Yonsei and Gosei, despite assimilation and acculturation. In other words, when published sources propel article growth, we are moving in the right direction, e.g.,

  • tertiary sources report more than one demographic study which tracks the fifth-generation Nipo-Brasileiros of Brazil and the Peruano-Japonés of Peru
  • published acknowledgment of the Gosei demographic in a Nikkei context
Our good judgment is the product of a number of factors. --Tenmei (talk) 05:50, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Assistance with translation, please

An editor has used http://dspace.lib.kanazawa-u.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2297/17987/1/dayori17.pdf as a reference in E E Speight for a a marriage and child. Pages 6-7 are the relevant pages. I can see enough in English in the illustrations to recognise that this is likely to be about E E Speight, but cannot read Japanese at all.

Might someone be able to translate the relevant section for me, perhaps placing the translation in the article's talk page? WIthout such a translation the article's accuracy is in doubt. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 15:56, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I just skimmed through the thing, but there doesn't seem to be a "personal life" section, just sections on his history as educator and a description of some of the books he wrote. Besides, "Hide" is a male name... TomorrowTime (talk) 16:29, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
It's an inappropriate edit. There's no mention about Speight's marriages at all on the linked pages. So I reverted the editor's edit. I found something interesting. The reviewer seems to be the editor. Oda Mari (talk) 18:32, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm grateful. Sometimes something can look valid and be wholly invalid. None of the machine translators I tried would even attempt the pdf, so I'm glad I thought of asking here. Thank you both for your help. If you have any further time I'd appreciate a translation on a personal basis since I have an off wikipedia interest in the gentleman's history. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 19:42, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Lists of dramas.

All three of these pages (well half of the 2005 one) have the names of people in Surname Given Name order. This should be fixed ASAP.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 22:41, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

File:E-tripartite-pact.jpg

This image is up for deletion, it seems like hogwash to delete the only photo found of this historic event.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 10:32, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

「毒花」

Tokiwa Toyoko Toyoko Tokiwa is the writer/photographer of a moderately famous book titled 『危険な毒花』. I suppose that the title really is that set of graphemes (which people are free to pronounce as they wish) and not some set of phonemes; however, we have to use rōmaji here in en:WP and I am forced to choose.

I'm lucky enough to possess a copy of my own (though mine lacks the obi). I can't see any "ruby" anywhere within it.

Google shows that 「毒花」 is not rare. Various ghits hint that the pronunciation is more likely to be ドクバナ rather than anything else. It's not in any 漢和 dictionary that I have here (I seem to have mislaid "Nelson"), and none of ドクカ, ドッカ, ドクハナ, or ドクバナ is in either of two large 国語 dictionaries that I have.

Tucker et al's large and wonderful book The History of Japanese Photography refers to the book as Kiken na adabana, in at least two places, by different authors. However, I find this very implausible: if she'd wanted adabana, surely she'd have written 徒花; and adabana aren't necessarily toxic and aren't thought of as toxic.

Comments? -- Hoary (talk) 15:31, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't want to be a smartass, but are you sure the pronunciation is not in the book? As far as I can remember, all Japanese books have a furigana-tsuki reading of the title and author on the last page (then again, almost all of my books are softcover novels, so this may be different...). As for the pronunciation - I didn't find the kanji cluster in any of my dictionaries, either, but my first intuitive pronunciation (right when I saw the kanji in the edit summary in my watchlist) was "dokuhana". Thinking a bit more about it, the "dokubana" pronunciation could be from Kansai - similar to how in Kanto they will pronounce 茨城 as "Ibaraki", where as in Kansai "Ibaragi" is the almost universal pronunciation of those kanji. Or I could be pulling all of this out of my ass... Take note, I'm not trying to assert any sort of expertise here :) TomorrowTime (talk) 16:27, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm hoping that Oda Mari shows up and schools us all in how to read that. My guess is dokka, but we'll see. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 16:48, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Actually, I just asked on IRC. Correct answer: キケン ナ ドクカ. You can verify it yourself by going to the metro library link and searching for the title of the book. You get one listing, and if you search down the page for the name of the book, you'll see the reading. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 17:37, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Here I am. It's dokubana. See [1] and [2]. The out-of-print book is so expensive! See [3] and [4]. Oda Mari (talk) 17:52, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Hmm...But NDL says dokubana too. Click "全項目を表示" on the right bottom, if you cannot see the title in katakana. Hoary, do you want me to ask Mikasa Shobo? Oda Mari (talk) 18:13, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
I think enough sources state that it's dokubana that I'd be willing to go with that. Oh well. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 18:18, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
According to OCLC, 4 universities in US hold the book. Tokiwa, Toyoko (1957). Kikenna dokubana (in Japanese). Tōkyō: Mikasa Shobō. OCLC 33621267. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |trans_title= (help)--Jjok (talk) 02:06, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

How pleasant to wake to such helpful responses. Thank you all.

TomorrowTime, of course I looked at the colophon. Yes, many Japanese books do indeed provide the reading of the kanji of the author(s) and title there; but many do not, and this is one of them. I know too little about the phonology of Japanese, but what little I do know suggests that nigori is commoner in Kantō than in Kansai, so that if told that dokuhana and dokubana were both used, one more in the one area and the other more in the other area, I'd link dokuhana with Kansai. (Mari may wish to correct me here.)

Annyong, yes, I saw that listing of キケン ナ ドクカ. I gave it very serious thought but it alone didn't convince me. (I'm more intrigued by what this publication is. I tentatively infer that it's a compilation of 縮小版; see my puzzled comment in Talk:Toyoko Tokiwa. I suppose I'll just have to toddle along to the library to take a look.)

Mari, I'd never heard of that Yahoo dictionary. A very useful discovery. I hadn't looked up the title at NDC, I'm ashamed to say. I don't think NDC used to give readings, and I'd forgotten that they now sometimes do. The prices for the book are indeed crazy, but that's photobook-collecting fetishism for you. I don't remember what I paid, but it was certainly under one quarter of the lower of those two prices. Mikasa Shobō wasn't a familiar name and I'd lazily assumed that it had long since disappeared. I'm glad to hear that it still exists. There's quite a market for reproductions of old Japanese photobooks -- Hosoe, Fukase, Nakahira, Suzuki (Kiyoshi) and Takanashi have all been so honored -- and perhaps Kiken na dokubana could get the same treatment (even though it's not what we think of these days as a photobook).

Well, a footnote within the article now waffles on for too long about Japanese dictionaries and so forth. I should trim this and at least mention that Kiken na dokuka is one other (right? wrong?) way in which the book has been referred to. But I'm hoping that Nihonjoe will first reconsider his well-intentioned edit to the article, now the latest.

Eventually I should also check the later books by Tokiwa, but copies aren't so easy to locate.

[Danger: Digression] The received idea is that female photographers burst on the scene with Hiromix and Nagashima (both inspired by Araki) and Ninagawa. Nonsense. Tucker goes some way to dispelling this myth, but not far enough. Now 96 years old and still taking photographs, Sasamoto was prominent as a photojournalist about a decade before Tokiwa's exhibition and book; would anyone here care to develop what's now a dreary substub about her? -- Hoary (talk) 02:38, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

PS [edit clash] Thank you, Jjok. I hadn't thought of looking outside Japan. (I'd been wondering what happened to all the copies: neither the Tokyo Metropolitan Library nor the library of the Tokyo Metropolitan Museum of Photography has one, even though the colophon of my own copy says that it's 第13版 [of course 13th impression, not edition] in the space of just five weeks, suggesting that a lot were churned out.) I'm interested to see "location= Tōkyō"; we in en:WP aren't supposed to alarm our nervous readers by such spellings. -- Hoary (talk) 02:48, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

PPSes on the JPEG:

  1. The immediate prompt for my recent revision of the article was the realization that somebody had added an image to it. The image shows an obi which I thought I should link to, but "obi strip" turned out to be wretched and I therefore revised its extremes of grotesqueness and added this image. It's still horrible, but I don't have any reference work about Japanese packaging design.
  2. Although a photo or scan of just about any old (or new) book can be used to illustrate obi, the combination of obi and dust jacket on this one copy of one book is I think of unusual visual interest for Japanese script reform. I hesitate to add it there, because the article already seems carefully done, but see my comment at Talk:Japanese script reform.

Hoary (talk) 03:28, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

FYI. According to the link Mari gave us, Yokohama City Central Library[5] holds three (and all?) of her books including her latest work in 2001 which is only found there (I am not sure the following links work for you).
This link[6] also displays Tokyo Metropolitan Museum of Photography Library holds Kiken na Dokubana. Someone has stolen it?--Jjok (talk) 04:25, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
This is strange. I know I was sleepy last night; perhaps I accidentally typed in 常磐 rather than 常盤 or made some similar goof when I was working the OPACs. Yokohama's OPAC is impressive: using it, I'm able to derive "further reading" material (already plonked in the talk page). Thank you again, Jjok. -- Hoary (talk) 05:07, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Tomorrow Time and Hoary, that nigori in ja words is called rendaku. 覚えておきましょう。According to the ja WP, the difference of rendaku in Kanto and Kansai can be found in family names like Yamasaki in Kansai and Yamazaki in Kanto. I'm not sure, but I don't think this can be found in common nouns. "どくか/Dokuka" reading sounds impossible to me, it should be "どっか/dokka" like 作家/author is not さくか/sakuka, but さっか/sakka, I'm not a linguist though. Oda Mari (talk) 06:09, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, I was generalizing carelessly. Yes, surely it's names: as another example, a tendency for Akahoshi in Kansai and Akaboshi in Kantō. As for dokuka versus dokka, I too was thinking of sakka and so forth but surprisingly live-in native informant was certain that dokka would be less likely than dokuka (though she also thought that even the latter was less likely than dokubana). The one thing she was certain of was that it wouldn't be adabana. Now read on..... Hoary (talk) 11:40, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Jjok (in effect) prompted me to visit the library of the Tokyo Metropolitan Museum of Photography today, and there I discovered pretty authoritative evidence that the intended reading was adabana. I'll explain the reading within the article soon, and as concisely as I can. ¶ Of course I could have found out all of this for myself, without bothering you, if I'd just gone to the library and read the stuff in the first place (or indeed if I had simply believed what a fine book by the first-rate Yale University Press had told its readers). So I wasted your time. Um, I shall repay my debt to society (or anyway you in WP) by creating a stub on a publisher (and not a Japanese publisher, in order to avoid more errors). -- Hoary (talk) 11:40, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Adabana? I didn't realize there were any other readings for 毒 other than doku. Or is this one of those cases where the author invented the reading? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 14:47, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
This is the joy of kanji: people can do as they damn well please. Usually, though, they employ rubi to make it clear that this is what they're doing. Well, I've found rubi. I hope to wake up to find a good response to this; if so, I'll update and improve the article. (Meanwhile, Steidl.) -- Hoary (talk) 15:08, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for showing us interesting findings. Adabana is usually written as 徒花 (仇花)[7] and I couldn't find the usage like 毒花 in the dictionary.　Since (the part of) the book is depicting prostitutes in the Akasen era (in Hinodechō, Yokohama?), I imagined that she may intended to imply that those fruitless flowers (prostitutes) were also poisoning themselves by the occupation they had to choose and it might be the reason she wanted to use 毒 character instead of 徒 (calling them as doku(bana) that sounds malicious, is also too straightforward). Anyway, OPACs and WorldCat are necessary to be updated.--Jjok (talk) 17:12, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Morning, Jjok and all. I woke to find other mistakes of mine in the article, and I hope that this set of edits has fixed them. I had trouble finding a way to fix them that would be palatable to people who know Japanese, people who don't know Japanese but are interested, people who are enterprising and may find contradictory material in bibliographical databases and be tempted to "correct" accordingly, and people who very understandably have no interest in the tedious intricacies of Japanese script and instead want to find out about the woman's photographs already. (My solution [?] has been to relegate this stuff to longwinded footnotes.) -- Hoary (talk) 02:08, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
Aftrnoon, Hoary. 刀 is not her surname. It's a part of her given name. 刀/to 洋/yo 子/ko. She was born as 常盤 刀洋子 and uses とよ子 as her photographer's name. What does the ref. book actually say? Oda Mari (talk) 05:01, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
I found ref. See this and check other g-search results. Oda Mari (talk) 05:18, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
Duh! Of course! The reference book says that 刀洋子 is her 本名, and it's ambiguous in Matsumoto's book too. But of course you're right. Thank you! ¶ Perhaps editing articles on Japanese people is beyond my capabilities, though I'd like to think that, with NihonJoe, I've improved the article. Your direct edits to it would of course be appreciated. -- Hoary (talk) 05:52, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Kenji Suzuki can you help?

The article on former television announcer Kenji Suzuki has been tagged as an unreferenced biography of a living person since January 2009, which is the current focus month of the BLP Rescue Project. I have tried, and failed, to find any reliable sources to support this text. There's plenty of information over at ja.wikipedia but every reference there is to another Wikipedia page. I've followed a couple through to external links but drawn a blank. I've drawn a blank at the NHK website. Google search is difficult to narrow down. Nothing I can see on GNews. I've used the Japanese spelling and Google translate but I'm not getting anywhere. This need someone who can read Japanese, I think. I'm posting here in the hope that someone might be kind enough to take a look and help. If it stays unreferenced much longer, it may be nominated as an AfD.--Plad2 (talk) 09:35, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Inline notes were added, citing Library of Congress authority file and OCLC identity page. Also, a dynamic list of published works was created. --Tenmei (talk) 18:21, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for that, but we are now down to the last few for the month of January 2009, and a lot of them are Japanese. Please see the list at Wikipedia talk:Unreferenced BLP Rescue#The remainders from January 2009 and see if you can help. Once we finish them, there are still 225 unreferenced BLPs linked to this project plus 91 Anime and Manga articles that are often very hard for non-Japanese speakers to reference. Your help in referencing them is greatly appreciated. Thank you very much. The-Pope (talk) 14:51, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Selected works

In the article about Ichimatsu Tanaka, Tanakasthename is uncomfortable with one sentence. The disputed sentence and its accompanying citation were deleted here and restored here:

Ichimatsu's published writings encompass 228 works in 326 publications in 6 languages and 2,797 library holdings.<:ref>WorldCat Identities: Tanaka, Ichimatsu 1895-1983</ref>
A credible complaint which "falls between the cracks" of wiki-policy

IMO, Tanakasthename's complaint is addressed by the first paragraph at WP:V which explains:

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth; that is, whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true.

IMO, the summary information about Ichimatsu's published works is justified by wiki-policy. One or more details may need to be "tweaked" as a result of further research, but the summary data are arguably good and sufficient as a first step in a constructive direction -- compare Talk:Ichimatsu Tanaka#Selected works.

I wonder what others think about this? --Tenmei (talk) 18:42, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

My point is simply that what you seem to understand to be "summary information about Ichimatsu's published works" is simply not that at all. When WorldCat lists these overviews, it does not attempt to sort any of the datum out. A good example: On WorldCat Identities page for Ichimatsu Tanaka, click on "French" language items on the far right. Notice that what WorldCat counts as FOUR separate works is actually only ONE. Or, to make it even clearer, take a look at this author's works sorted by title. You will notice that on the first page alone, although WorldCat lists TEN entries, these ten entries represent only SIX works. In other words, the sentence: "Ichimatsu's published writings encompass 228 works in 326 publications in 6 languages and 2,797 library holdings" is not only not true, but is also a misunderstanding of the source being cited. This is not a big deal for this one article, but this is not the first time I have seen data from WorldCat cited in this way, and this misunderstanding holds true for all of these examples. The only way to make that sentence "true" (i.e., worthwhile?) would be to rewrite it as "WorldCat Identities identifies.... works associated with this author," or something like that.
WP:V also includes, however, several sentences later:
This policy requires that all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged be attributed to a reliable, published source in the form of an inline citation, and that the source directly support the material in question.
If a source is being cited for material that is not at all supported by that source (i.e., because it is not being used/understood properly), then I see no benefit of this data being included in its current form. Tanakasthename (talk) 15:08, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
[Note: I indented the diff above. It appears that Tanakasthename may not know that it is conventional in our wiki-discussion threads to indent each new contributor's paragraphs so that the comments of serial participants can be readily distinguished. --Tenmei (talk) 17:25, 11 January 2011 (UTC)]
I understand Tanakasthename's argument and the illustrative examples are very clear. IMO, the deductive assessment drawn from those examples is not persuasive. In other words,
  • Yes, good judgment is required in the decision-making about what to include (or not include) in a dynamic list.
  • No, bad judgment was not shown by posting the disputed sentence which is accompanied by an inline citation with an embedded hyperlink.
For me, the problem is that I typically don't know how to move beyond talking past each other. For purposes of comparison and contrast, please consider this paragraph:
The number of Kenzaburo Ōe's works translated into English and other languages remains limited. His literary output includes many publications which are still only available in Japanese.<:ref>Books and Writers: Kenzaburo Ōe</ref> Kenzaburo's published writings encompass 699 works in 1,597 publications in 28 languages and 27,632 library holdings.<:ref>WorldCat Identities: Ōe, Kenzaburō 1935- </ref>
Does this alternate example help clarify the issues at hand?

Would it help to emphasize the verb "to encompass"? --Tenmei (talk) 17:25, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I think the Oe example actually supports my original position that the inclusion of this data is terribly misleading, if not downright false. It is quite clear from the linked page that as many as 1/3 or more of the "699 works" are not by Oe, but are about him, which makes the sentence "Kenzaburo's published writings encompass..." a complete falsehood. The verb "encompass" is not the issue here. Tanakasthename (talk) 17:47, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
This dispute has been cross-posted at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Selected works. --Tenmei (talk) 18:48, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Tenmei, thank you for taking my concern seriously, although my concern seems to have been misconstrued in this cross-posting on "Reliable Sources." It is not the source itself that is in question. WorldCat and WorldCat Identities are entirely reliable as sources. My concern is that the data found therein has been applied to a wide variety of Wiki pages in a way that is not at all representative of the data actually found at WorldCat. I never claimed that WorldCat was misleading or false. You can clearly see just above that I call the "inclusion of this data" "misleading" and "false." It is unfortunate that my expression of concern for your handling of this data has been made to seem as if I have a concern with WorldCat itself. Tanakasthename (talk) 03:48, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Tanakasthename -- Yes, I'm predisposed to defer to any arguable point of view. Yes, your point-of-view is informed by a commitment to the highest standards of academic crediblity. Yes, we agree that an article about the life of Ichimatsu Tanaka requires this kind of closer scrutiny. Yes, the nature and quality of the sources you cite in support of your edits add gravitas to the opinions you express. Moreover, personal experience informs our recognition of the problematic caveats which are a part of the current state of WorldCat's evolving catalogue.

In other words, I do understand this context; but this also means that I am able to appreciate the difference between a plausible opinion and a solid argument. Of course, in this one article, I can easily overlook the fact that your expressed concerns are unsupported and unpersuasive. This article's edit history provides ample reason to defer to your good judgment. I intend no disrespect with quibbles about any part of your reasoning. In a sense, the easy course of action is obvious and attractive.

However, my interests in Wikipedia extends beyond this one article. In that broader context, I feel compelled to disagree mildly. These are factors in my decision to object:

  1. WorldCat identities is within the ambit of WP:RS.

    In other words, the source is reliable

  2. The sentence to which you object is properly conforming to WP:Cite.

    In other words, the reliable source is clearly cited.

  3. The numbers are an accurate reflection of the cited text.

    In other words, the disputed sentence is verifiable in the ways which are explained at WP:Verifiability.

  4. This one sentence is an edit which has complied with WP:Burden in the broader context of WP:Five Pillars.

    In other words, I've done what I'm supposed to do.

In contrast, your rejection of the sentence does not yet meet any burden of persuasion or proof. The support you offer is merely a conclusory statement which cannot be parsed in the ways demonstrated here. Do you see my point?

As nearly as I can tell, your objection focuses on something other than what the disputed sentence actually asserts. The sentence is modest, correct, verifiable, and clear; but you have deleted it anyway.

I do not recognize a good reason for removing a similar sentence from other articles -- for example, articles about the following academics have similar sentences in the "Selected works" sections:

For these reason, I feel obliged to argue for the restoration of the sentence you have removed yet again. I take your point; but is it possible that your perspective might need to be broadened? --Tenmei (talk) 21:45, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
At the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, Tanakasthename seems to explain that parsing questions about "reliable sources" is a non-issue.

IMO, the WorldCat Identities project does verifiably summarize a writer's output, not as an arithmetical sum, but in terms of a web — a network of "works" and "publications" and "languages" and "library holdings".

Perhaps another venue is preferred? Please consider Wikipedia talk:Verifiability#Technically "verifiable" and verifiably misconstrued. --Tenmei (talk) 03:15, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Technically "verifiable" and verifiably misconstrued

The words of Tanakasthename in this sub-section heading are a credible complaint. Summarizing the issues and history of the complaint:

Tanakasthename -- Thank you for investing both time and care. Our work together is an example of successful collaborative editing. This re-drafted sentence incorporates your fine-tuning perspective:

In a statistical overview derived from writings by and about Ichimatsu Tanaka, OCLC/WorldCat encompasses roughly 200+ works in 300+ publications in 6 languages and 2000+ library holdings.<:ref>WorldCat Identities; Tanaka, Ichimatsu 1895-1983</ref>

I will take on the task of making changes in other articles with a similar sentence. --Tenmei (talk) 17:10, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

There were more than 100 articles which needed to be edited. --Tenmei (talk) 03:11, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Blood Type

How important is it to mention a Japanese person's blood type in their biographies? Must it be placed in the first paragraph of the intro?

If it's not terribly important, I'm going to move Miyuki Kanbe's blood type out of her intro and place it farther down in the article. --Uncle Ed (talk) 02:25, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I would argue that it's not necessary at all. It may be fine to include in the JA Wikipedia where that sort of knowledge is more appropriate to the people reading it, but I don't think we need it on the English Wiki. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 03:38, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

10th anniversary celebrations in Japan

Come celebrate with us! Even if you aren't in Japan, there's a bunch of other celebrations around the world listed here.

For anyone interested, there will be Wikipedia 10th Anniversary celebrations in Kyoto on January 22 and in Tokyo on February 5. Details on those pages. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 08:10, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

T. Nakajima - who is this person?

I can't find this name anywhere in Wiki.

None of these 2 pages mentions that this astronomer disovered the first Brown Dwarf (not to mention the first Menthane Dwarf). Thanks, Marasama (talk) 23:42, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

He is an assistant professor of National Astronomical Observatory of Japan.[8] He discovered a cool brown dwarf in 1995.[9] Hope this helps. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 00:20, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, Marasama (talk) 21:23, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Battle of Midway and Japanese naming conventions

In editing the article Battle of Midway, back in March 2009 I added this to the infobox:


  1. ^ Japanese names are traditionally listed as family name followed by personal name(s), for example, Yamamoto Isoroku. This convention is followed in Japanese publications and in many recent English and American publications; eg: Parshall and Tully Shattered Sword, although, for convenience, it is not followed in the main text of the article.

One editor, so far, has disagreed with me incorporating this in the infobox, and has since attempted to remove it. Now that I have read Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)#Names of modern figures (which I probably should have done in the first place) there seems to be some differences between Parshall and Tully, who have worked closely with Japanese historians, and Wikipedia Style - I also note that there is some heated debate over changes made to the MoS. Any thoughts as to whether I should leave this as is, or revert back to the "Western order of given name + family name for Western alphabet"? TiA Minorhistorian (talk) 02:33, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

As you have noted, the MoS is clear-cut on this. The heated debate you mention presumably concerns whether/when we should use macrons in Japanese names, but I don't recall ever seeing any arguments over name order in the past. In short, yes, you should revert and stick to the standard western order of given name + family name for Japanese names, unless they were born before 1868. --DAJF (talk) 04:34, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
What DJF wrote. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 05:11, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Why does WP:Japan have the given name|family name convention while WP:Korea is the opposite? This contradiction has already tripped me up once. Cla68 (talk) 05:17, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Meiji people, probably those who went abroad, started to use the given name|family name order to avoid confusion. It's not difficult to think there were lots of confusion at that time as most Westerners did not know the traditional family name|given name order. It could be said a kind of a "do-as-the-Romans-do" way or Japanese omoiyari. Oda Mari (talk) 06:10, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
No problem, I should have come here first, before making these alterations. Minorhistorian (talk) 09:17, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Cla68, Korea's naming practice is more regular than the Japanese one and family names are easily recognizable. The switched name order sounds rather odd. The same can't be said for Japanese names. --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 04:38, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Hello! List of National Treasures of Japan (crafts: others) is currently a featured list candidate and in need of more reviews. I would be very happy if somebody took the time to have a look at the article and leave comments/questions/suggestions and possibly a vote ("support" or "oppose") on the nomination page. Thanks. bamse (talk) 22:05, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

It is now listed as "Nominations urgently needing reviews", meaning that unless it receives more reviews (one or two more should be sufficient) it is in danger of failing. So far it received 2 "support" and no "oppose" votes. Please take the time to review the list and to leave your vote. Thank you. bamse (talk) 15:53, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Tokyo Subway

There's a proposal for Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Tokyo Subway task force at the WikiProject Council. 65.93.14.196 (talk) 05:34, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Request for Help with SHINKILOW page

Thank you to all the Project Japan contributors. I would like to ask if anyone is interested in helping on the Shinkilow page: http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Shinkilow

I don't have experience setting up articles on Wiki, and so far I have gotten nothing but criticism and threats of deletion for the stub. If any of you are familiar with the Japanese music and concert scene, and are familiar with Shinkilow's work, it would be great to have someone take an interest in working on the article. Doumo! thanks. --APDEF (talk) 03:31, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I am not familiar with the Japanese music scene, but most of the issues with this article could be resolved if you provided references for the last two sentences of the article that are marked with "citation needed" (Shinkilow at the Fuji Rock Festival and in Graz). It would be good if you had independent (not Shinkilow's website) sources). I could do the technical part of adding references if necessary. Just let me know the url (or other location) of a reference for these statements. bamse (talk) 10:42, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

File:Rising sun.svg

File:Rising sun.svg has been nominated for deletion. It appears to be the Japanese Airforce roundel. `65.93.14.196 (talk) 07:02, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

If you need the correct file for an article, it's actually found at File:Japan Air Self-Defense Force roundel.svg. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 07:06, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Review help at new article

I just wrote Bloody Saturday (photograph) and I need someone familiar with the Japanese language to assess the article for accessibility, to determine whether it is B-Class. Thank you! Binksternet (talk) 00:43, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Regarding Japanese Street Fashion article

is there an article on the Japanese wikipedia that corresponds to this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.219.104 (talk) 15:50, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't think there's an article per se, but there's Category:日本のファッション, a category for it. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 17:12, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Ushio Sugawara

I don't know if this is a keeper or a tosser, but it's certainly intriguing, please have a look!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 07:23, 24 January 2011 (UTC)


Mari Nakano

Can you folks help me with Japanese language sourcing, to include her kanji? Thanks and good night!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 18:46, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I can certainly tell you that that article is hurting in terms of notability. Two primary sources and a LinkedIn account? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 18:49, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
That's helpful... anyone else?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 03:23, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
Can these two Japanese-language sources ([10], [11]) be used for this article? Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:28, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
I think so, thank you! Family name is in kanji, personal name seems to be in hiragana.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 03:50, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

"Kuratanov"

"Kuratanov" is, we are told (without sourcing of any kind), a Japanese photographer and pop culture personality. Even his own website consists of a single photo inviting you to click it -- and that's all. I'm underwhelmed, but then I don't claim to understand Japanese pop culture (softcore porn etc). Straightforward AfD fodder, or am I missing something big here? -- Hoary (talk) 02:13, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I generally agree with you on this one. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 07:36, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
全面的に同意. I found his blog via Yinling's blog. The man in black jacket seems to be him. I don't think he is notable. Oda Mari (talk) 09:18, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
I hadn't thought of looking up Yinling. Now that is a real treasure of an article. STOP! Don't think of reading it if you are sipping a beverage: laughter (I suspect unintended by the writer) may cause you to squirt your mouthful out of your nostrils. So first pause to swallow. The article is topped by the calm instruction: This article may be confusing or unclear to readers. Please help clarify the article; suggestions may be found on the talk page. Alas no suggestion is to be found on the talk page; perhaps the good members of WikiProject Japan would care to provide some. (Me, I'll start with a question: Is what Yinling has on her head a miniature replica of the famed Asahi Golden, er, thing?) -- Hoary (talk) 15:41, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
Well, for one thing the Yinling article uses an earlier version of the guy's mock Soviet nickname from which his actual name is easier to glean: "Hiraokanovsky Kuratachenko", i.e. Hiroaki Kurata. The Kuratanov article gives the first name in the nickname (in Cyrillic only) as Sergey. TomorrowTime (talk) 17:10, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
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