Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Mythology task force/Archive 4

This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

WP 1.0 bot announcement

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Translation request

The Japanese article ja:日本神話 has the following sections in あらすじ:

世界の始まり

イザナギとイザナミ

アマテラスとスサノオ

出雲神話

葦原中津国平定

山幸彦と海幸彦

神武天皇

欠史八代

Could someone help translating these articles? In particular, ja:天地開闢 (日本神話), ja:国産み, ja:神産み and ja:神代七世 have Spanish translations. If someone understands Spanish, please help. Thank you. --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 00:44, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Jmyth navbox and infobox

I am copying my comments from Template talk:Jmyth navbox long. They apply equally to Template:Jmyth navbox tall and Template:Jmyth infobox.

It seems inappropriate to me to mix gods from the Shinto pantheon (Amaterasu, Susanoo, etc.) with characters from folk stories (Momotarō, Urashima Tarō; Tengu, Kappa, etc.). Yes, they all relate to Japanese "myths" in some sense of the word, but myths of very different sorts. This would be like having a European myth navbox listing Jesus, Moses, Santa Claus, and the boy who put his finger in the dike.

The category "sacred and mythical locations" is also odd. I've visited Mount Hiei and Mount Fuji, but if I had visited Yomi I would not be able to tell you about it. The first two are actual places visited by Buddhist pilgrims (among others); the latter is the mythical realm of the dead in Shinto.

Are members of this task force interested to create separate templates for religious and folkloric topics, ideally linked back to one another with a cross-reference? I'm not particularly expert in this area, but know just enough to take mild offense at the current templates. Cnilep (talk) 15:07, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree that all these non-Shinto creatures and other topics unrelated to the mythology seem out of place. The Japanese template only includes Kojiki and Nihon Shoki and the tales on the creation myth and the birth of the deities who rule the natural world. I listed these topics in my translation request above. Yokai and mukashi-banashi characters are topics of Japanese folklore, and I think more templates are needed. I'm not a member of this task force at the moment, but that's my opinion. --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 17:13, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I've mocked up a version of the 'long' box with only Shinto, Buddhism, and the 七福神 at User:Cnilep/Japanese mythology. Cnilep (talk) 22:20, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Can we find another image with a similar aspect ration for the right side fo the box to balance it? Right now, it looks very strange due to the offset created by the left image. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 04:44, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I added one; changes are welcome, or we could remove both. Cnilep (talk) 17:10, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Looks good. I added alt text to each so people can hover over the image and see what it is. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 04:52, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

The corresponding folklore box is now at User:Cnilep/Japanese folklore. Cnilep (talk) 17:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Looks good, too. I add alt text here, too. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 04:52, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I have merged my content to {{Jmyth navbox long}}, moved my folklore template to Template name space, and removed folklore content from {{Jmyth navbox tall}}. I also looked through the pages that included the navboxes, and changed about 70 from Jmyth navbox long to {{Japanese folklore long}}. I did not edit Jmyth infobox. Cnilep (talk) 15:26, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Please take a look at my {{Jmyth navbox long}} here. I added the content of the Japanese template ja:Template:日本神話 to include the creation myth, mythology from Izumo and Hyuga, and the earliest emperors.

I don't think Buddhism and the Seven Lucky Gods belong here because their origin is not related to the mythology. Ryugu-jo most often appears in the folklore, so it should be moved to the folklore template. Also, Kami is not specific enough and may be omitted. --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 06:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "related to the mythology." Are you suggesting that there is a single mythic tradition in Japan? You may also want check out the template {{Shinto}}, by the way.

Certainly the 七福神 (mostly) have origins outside of Japan, but their treatment as a group is a strictly Japanese tradition, isn't it? (As I mentioned above, I'm not expert in this area.) Similarly, Buddhism has its origins in South Asia, but its practice in Japan is in some ways regionally specific. I guess it depends on what one means by "Japanese mythology".

I think that it might be good to remove the whole "Mythical locations" heading from the current template. As Shinkansen Fan says, Ryūgū-jō is mostly referred to in secular folklore (e.g. Urashima Tarō). Tamagahara and Yomi are important concepts in Shinto, but do they need a link outside that to Shinto?

Specifically regarding Shinkasen Fan's template: I don't understand the organization. This is probably because I have limited knowledge of Shinto. Importantly, though, there is no explanation of this organization on any of the pages linked. This makes the template not very helpful to Wikipedia users who are not already expert in the subject. Also, navboxes are not supposed to contain red links, and both Izumo and Hyūga link to DAB pages and so need to be changed. Cnilep (talk) 14:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

The Japanese mythology is a series of tales about the creation of the deities and the land in time immemorial, as told in Kojiki, Nihon Shoki, and Fudoki of some provinces such as Izumo. These texts chronicle the events that took place in Takamagahara, Izumo, and Hyuga. The creation process began with the birth of the five asexual deities, Kotoamatsukami in Takamagahara followed by the twelve deities (seven generations), "Kami(no)yonanayo" (the seven generations of the divine age). Izanagi and Izanami are the seventh generation. Izanami gave birth to the land of Japan (Kuniumi) and the gods and goddesses of natural forces (Kamiumi). The Buddhist deities and the Seven Lucky Gods don't appear in the mythology because they are not ancestors or descendants of Izanagi and Izanami. Perhaps we can move the Buddhist deities to a Buddhism template. I think Shichifukujin falls into the category of folk beliefs rather than the mythology.

Both Takamagahara and Yomi are important in the mythlogy, so they should stay. I included Izumo and Hyuga as mythical locations. Susanoo descended to Izumo and Ninigi descended to Hyuga. Emperor Jimmu started his expedition to the east (Yamato) from Hyuga. There are a few other tales related to these places. The ancient provincial powers like Izumo, Hayato, and Kumaso may have their own tales, but I don't know much about them.

I made some changes to my template. As for red links, I will try translating equivalent articles and related pictures. Shinkansen Fan (talk) 13:45, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Japanese mythology articles have been selected for the Wikipedia 0.8 release

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For the Wikipedia 1.0 editorial team, SelectionBot 23:12, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Proposed expansion of scope

I have proposed possibly expanding the scope of this project, and a few others. For the purposes of centralized discussion, please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion#Possible reorganization of some related projects. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 15:58, 15 October 2010 (UTC)