Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People

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General Level 1 Level 2 Level 3 Level 4 Level 5

Level 5 Subpages

People History and geography Society STEM

Introduction

The purpose of this discussion page is to select 50,000 topics for which Wikipedia should have high-quality articles.

Any article currently on this list may be challenged. The discussion is open to the following rules:

Voting count table (>60%)
P = passes F = fails		opposing votes
P = passes F = fails		0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
0	supporting votes	–	–	–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F
1		–	–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
2		–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
3		–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
4		P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
5		P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F
6		P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F
7		P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F
8		P	P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F
9		P	P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F

Before being closed, a Level 5 proposal must:
1. Run for at least 15 days; AND
2. Allow at least 7 days after the most recent vote; AND
3. Have at least 4 participants.
For a proposal to be implemented on the Level 5 list:
1. It must have over 60% support (see table); AND
2. It must have at least 4 support votes !votes.
For proposed additions from August 2024 onwards, the nominator should list (and possibly link to) at least one potential section in the level 5 vital articles list for the article to be added to. Supporters can also help in this regard.

For reference, the following times apply for today:

15 days ago is: 22:49, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
7 days ago is: 22:49, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

The following link represent all current Level 5 Vital articles that are classified as people:

Add Norman Granz

Founder of Verve Records and manager of Ella Fitzgerald 4.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 11:10, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"the most successful impresario in the history of jazz" Makkool (talk) 09:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Sam Gilliam

He seems somewhat important. I am not an art scholar.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:57, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:57, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

3 interwikis suggest that he was not influential. The Blue Rider 11:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per aboveMakkool (talk) 09:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Move the troubadours, trouvères, and Minnesägner to musicians

I feel like these guys should be listed under musicians. Unlike the Greek lyricists like Sappho, we do have some of the original music that their poems were set to. (Admittedly, it's a small "some"—only about 12% according to the troubadours page—and I don't think the people I'm about to request to be moved are among those whose musical compositions survived.) However, I don't know where exactly they should be placed. I personally lean towards putting them under Western art music (either under Medieval and Renaissance composers, or even a new section like how ragtime or soundtrack composers have their own list) but I'm fine putting them in the songwriters section with Carl Michael Bellman and Stephen Foster.

Here are the people I want to move, plus two more that I'm just throwing in because they're either a troubadour, trouvère, or a Minnesinger:

Bertran de Born 5 (troubadour)
Chrétien de Troyes 4 (trovère; personally his chivalric romances firmly keeps him in the writers page)
Arnaut Daniel 5 (troubadour)
Wolfram von Eschenbach 5 (Minnesigner; he seems more important as a poet in general)
Rutebeuf 5 (trovère)
Tannhäuser 5 (Minnesigner)
William IX, Duke of Aquitaine 5 (troubadour)

Under Western art music (Medieval and Renaissance)

Support (except for Chrétien and von Eschenbach). SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support (except for Chrétien and von Eschenbach). Makkool (talk) 11:05, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator, same exceptions. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:43, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Under Western art music (new section)

Under songwriters

Keep under poets

Discuss

Chretien is Level 4, so moving him should be decided on the Level 4 talk page. Makkool (talk) 11:05, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Leochares

Page's pretty bare.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:46, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

@SailorGardevoir, Makkool, and Starship.paint: While I will admit that stubs are typically less vital, there are exceptions to that, and this sculptor is one. He worked on the Mausoleum at Halicarnassus 5, he created the Diana of Versailles (should probably be vital judging by its article), and he made several other popular sculptures. He is therefore vital enough to make the list, and you make a better argument for improving his article than removing it from the list. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:50, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@QuicoleJR: - I'm not convinced that there is indeed enough information on him out there to make a comprehensive biography rather than a stub. starship .paint (RUN) 14:08, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are some decent results on Google Books and Google Scholar for anyone with the time and resources needed. A bad Brittanica article should not be the deciding factor for someone's vitality. Just because we don't have much in our article or Brittanica's doesn't mean he didn't have lasting importance. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@QuicoleJR: the onus is on you to prove with links that there is detailed coverage of him, simply asserting is not good enough. starship .paint (RUN) 14:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Moving discussion here for ease of reading. I'll see if I can find some links in a few minutes. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:21, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Although, I will just say that I think that the person is vital even without finding extra sources for expanding the article. He makes valid claims to vitality, and that should be enough. I don't see how article size factors in to it, and there are plenty of better targets for removal. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:23, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is my personal opinion that since the vital article project is intended to establish important articles that should be improved, if there are articles on a person/object that cannot be improved to a high quality because there is simply not enough information about the person/object out there, then we should not list them as vital. You would probably disagree. starship .paint (RUN) 15:39, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think your opinion is valid. I am willing to retract my Oppose for now, since I have other things I care more about. However, I will put this on my to-do list and will propose adding it back to the list if I am able to destub it. Does this work for you? QuicoleJR (talk) 15:52, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@QuicoleJR: - what I would be looking for is for someone, anyone to prove that there's enough information out there to satisfy FA requirements (it does not require that the article be updated). starship .paint (RUN) 16:11, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Smokey Robinson

For once, I’m going to make an addition proposal. We have The Miracles 5 on here, but this is definitely a case of a member being vital in their own right. Not only was he the main songwriter and producer for the group (who were called Smokey Robinson and the Miracles from 1965 to 1972), he was also the main songwriter and producer for The Temptations 5, the vice president of Motown, and he received his Hollywood Walk of Fame 5 star and Rock and Roll Hall of Fame 5 induction before the rest of the group.

Support

Oppose

Discuss

Move Mikael Agricola 5 to linguists

He is more a vital to the encyclopedia as the founder of Finnish literary language, than as one of many Protestant reformators in Kingdom of Sweden. Makkool (talk) 18:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:23, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 16:57, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Steve Albini

Well-known producer known for producing albums from Pixies (band) 5, Fugazi 5, Nirvana (band) 4, PJ Harvey 5, etc. He recently passed away (a couple hours from this message) but I was surprised to know he wasn't on this list yet despite his contributions. 49p (talk) 19:35, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

49p (talk) 19:37, 8 May 2024 (UTC), per nom[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Falls a little short in my opinion.Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:28, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not well-known enough, more of an alternative figure. Makkool (talk) 18:04, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

He is not notable enough as a musician and I am not sure where the bar is for producers. What producers do we have listed?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:52, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We have "Music producers, songwriters and businesspeople." This list is hard to compare because most of these people are known to be executives, rather than being known as producers/engineers.

The ones who are close to Albini that we have are Alan Parsons 5 who was "assistant engineer" on Abbey Road and main engineer for The Dark Side of the Moon and known for performing as the Alan Parsons Project. Trevor Horn 5 is a producer known for his work in Yes (band) and is called "the man who invented the eighties" per his page. Other producers we have are King Tubby 5, Quincy Jones 5, and Rick Rubin 5 which are all much similar (known for working with well-known artists, except with the case of Tubby where he's more known for popularizing dub music)

So I think the bar is either producing well known albums or making a impact on a known genre. I say given Albini's work in albums like Surfer Rosa, In Utero, Pod (The Breeders album), and Rid of Me he seems to fit. A fair argument you can make to not include Albini is most of these artists worked with "extremely" well known artists (Parsons worked with The Beatles and Pink Floyd, which is probably like a tier down from bands like The Pixies or Nirvana (band).) 49p (talk) 00:28, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nirvana's final album is pretty big, but I am on the fence.-~~

English football adjustments

Swap Gary Lineker 5 for Jimmy Greaves

Greaves is the top scorer in the history of English top-tier football, he was apart of England's 66' FIFA World Cup triumph and he his often regarded as one of (if not the best) English domestic player during the 20th Century. Whilst Lineker's career is outstanding, it is a shoulder below that of Greaves' legacy; and if not Greaves, many more modern careers have since surpassed Lineker's. It could be argued that Harry Kane (England's top scorer), Manual Neuer (his generation's greatest keeper), Modrić /Benzema /Iniesta /Kaka or Suárez, all deserve places ahead of Lineker, and the list goes on... Idiosincrático (talk) 22:04, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nominator Idiosincrático (talk) 22:04, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:16, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Swap Malcolm Allison for Herbert Chapman

PASSED

Swapped 4-0. Phikia (talk) 08:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Chapman was one of the most revolutionary English managers during the early 20th century and I was surprised he wasn't already included. He is mostly responsible in England for floodlights at football matches, shirt numbers, physiotherapists in player management and several other traditions and practices. His tenure at both Huddersfield and Arsenal is regarded as one of the finest periods in the history of each club. Chapman's Arsenal team from the early 1930s is still revered as one of the greatest in English football history. Whereas for Allison, I really couldn't tell you much about him, mostly because I simply don't know him; but it is easy to see how Chapman's legacy as a manager dwarfs that of Allisons. Idiosincrático (talk) 07:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nominator Idiosincrático (talk) 07:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:16, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. Phikia (talk) 04:42, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Hassan al-Banna

Founder of the Muslim Brotherhood 5. His ideas shaped the modern discourse on the intersection of Islam and politics.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 15:34, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:37, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Move Meir Kahane

Usually I would just do a bold move, but I have no idea where to put him. All I know is I don't feel like his current position (under religious figures) is the best place to put him. Yes, his Zionism was on the religious side and he was an ordained rabbi, but his beliefs at its very core was ultranationalist. Now I personally am in favor of putting him under rebels, but he was elected, and we have been moving those type of guys to politicians. I also get the rationale of placing him under terrorists.

To politicians

SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:14, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To rebels

To terrorists

Assuming we even keep terrorists as a subsection (which is inherently controversial and contested), as he is mentioned within the first paragraph alone as having been convicted on terrorism charges, and has an entire section entitled "terrorism and convictions". His term in the Knesset was a pretty small part of his overall career and during that time he arguably lacked institutional influence that others would normally have as he was boycotted by all other members. Iostn (talk) 21:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep under religious figures

Discuss

Move Ch'oe Ch'i-wŏn

Although we got a lot of reformers on here, their activities are at least tied to their religion. I don't think that's the cause for Ch'oe, especially since during the time he was active, he was a Confucianist, not a Buddhist. I prefer moving him to the politicians page, but since he was apparently a philosopher, I'll leave that option out as well. (We do have people in that page who were government officials.)

To politicians

SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:06, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To philosophers

Keep

Discuss

Add Baba Farid

Another person to make up for my recent proposals, although he seems to be just as important as a literature figure as he is a religious one, so I'll throw in that option as well. Seems pretty important amongst not just the Muslim population of Punjab, but for Punjabis in general.

Support (under Sufism)

SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:30, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 15:42, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support (under poets)

Oppose

Discuss

Moving entries from "rebels" to "terrorists"

"Terrorists" is always going to be controversial as a subsection, but as long as its there, it makes sense to list people there if they are described as "terrorist" by their own articles.

I think it used to suffer as a section when there was a subsection quota, which encouraged filling it in quite an arbitrary way to reach a certain number of articles, while others were listed in different places regardless of wherever it made much sense.

For this reason I will propose moving the following articles currently listed with "rebels, revolutionaries and activists":

Carlos the Jackal 5 - described as committing "terrorist bombings" in the first sentence alone, and then directlty afterwards described as "one of the most notorious political terrorists of his era".
Ayman al-Zawahiri 5 - lede doesn't actually use the word "terrorist", but it still remains strewn throughout the rest of the article, and as he was the second leader of Al-Qaeda 5, it doesn't make much sense to separate him from Osama bin Laden 4 listing-wise.
Jihadi John 5 - "A group of his hostages nicknamed him "John" since he was part of a four-person terrorist cell"
Abu Musab al-Zarqawi 5 - "ran a terrorist training camp in Afghanistan"

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:55, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:50, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 13:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Related proposal: Move Dylann Roof 5 from "murder" to "terrorism"

I would normally do myself but again, "terrorism" in inherently controversial as a label and ill-defined.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:55, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:50, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, but I am not sure he should be listed in the first place. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Remove outright

_pbp 00:51, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Swap: Remove Jamshid bin Abdullah of Zanzibar, add Ali Hassan Mwinyi and Samia Suluhu Hassan

At the present time, Zanzibar has two articles, including Jamshid, who fails the lettuce test of less than a year in office. Its successor nation, Tanzania, has sixty million people but only one article. Mwinyi served as president for 10 years and enacted a series of post-Nyerere reforms. Hassan is the country's first female president. Mwinyi and Hassan have significantly more interwikis than Jamshid. _pbp 22:23, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Leung Chun-ying

As with Tu above, Hong Kong is bloated with six post-1945 leaders, including five post-1997 leaders. Of the leaders of Hong Kong, he seems the least vital. _pbp 22:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 22:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Don't really see how he's the least vital, he seems to mark an important milestone re: the erosion of Hong Kong's autonomy.

Discussion

Massive shift of politicians from early modern to post-classical without consensus

It used to be the split between post-classical and early modern was somewhere between 1400 and 1453. Now it's 1500, meaning quite a few Renaissance figures are listed in post-classical when ANY historian worth his salt would have them in early modern. Dozens, perhaps over 100 figures were moved, and I'm not only concerned about the WP:RANDY aspect of this, I'm also concerned that moving that many figures should have only been done with a consensus. _pbp 17:21, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Who did it? The Blue Rider

20:06, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was SailorGardevoir _pbp 10:41, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SailorGardevoir: The Blue Rider

11:25, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It used to be the split between post-classical and early modern was somewhere between 1400 and 1453. - based on what? This should have been noted somewhere on the vital list page. Thing is, Post-classical history says until 1500 CE, and early modern period says it starts about 1500. So what should be the year for the split? starship .paint (RUN) 14:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. If the leaders/politicians page explicitly had a different timeline structure, then by all means revert it. However, so long as we have a generic four period structure as we do for most of the other pages (Ancient, Post-classical, Early modern, and Late modern), we need to stick with what our own articles on those periods state are the years they lasted. And if anyone has an issue with this, please go to this discussion, because I do think we need a clear answer for this. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:10, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Hun Manet

Cambodia's current leader, I know he hasn't served a full year yet but him being the first new leader in 37 years makes him vital IMO. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 04:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

I don't really see why we are priotizing him over other new leaders especially when his accesion doesn't seem to herald any significant change in Cambodia. Iostn (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unlikely to be seen as vital in 20 years' time. J 947 ‡ ^edits 05:39, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Add serial killer Pedro Rodrigues Filho

Per his cultural influence in Brazil, and this list needs less US bias. Also inspired the protagonist of Dexter (TV series) 5.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:50, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add to Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/People/Miscellaneous#Murder,_serial_killing,_mass_murder. starship .paint (RUN) 12:39, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Woo Bum-kon incident 5

NO CONSENSUS

Not removed 2-0. I'll move it instead to History as the article is framed as an event now. Makkool (talk) 17:17, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article was moved from Woo Bum-kon and rescoped to be event-based and not a biography. It is now no longer fit for its section which is of criminal biographies. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:45, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

This just brings up the question: does it really make much difference how the article is framed, if its still focused solely through the lens of its perpertrator (and I'm not sure if that page should've been even moved to start with, if reliable sources are just naming the events strictly through that lens anyway)? For example, if we list a murder case of someone who is only known for being the victim of that particularly murder case, should that be under the victims section? Iostn (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Georgette Heyer

My previous removal nominations, as well as the ones still to come, should make enough room to add this woman. She has had a major impact on the Romance novel 4 genre, having a major role in popularizing the historical romance subgenre and creating a new subgenre of that. 40 of her books currently have their own articles. 24 interwikis, rated Top-Importance by WikiProject Romance and WikiProject Women writers.

Support

As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:04, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 16:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:12, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Kevin Poulsen 5

Not actually that important as a hacker (he is currently listed under "computer crimes") and his subsequent journalism career which he is actually more notable for itself doesn't seem to be enough to make the cut (he is simply a "contributing editor", and has been involved a few major/majorish cases mentioned but that's it)

Support

Nom Iostn (talk) 16:59, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 15:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:33, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add John Barrowman or swap with Mike Farrell 5

Barrowman is a quite significant scottish actor and being LGBTQ he would help diversify the list. I offer a swap given that the list of entertainers is over the quota. I suggest Farrell as Barrowman has 12 more interwikis than him and Farrell only really has one significant role being MASH. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 06:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

As nominator. I also vote for the swap. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 06:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support swap Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Ibn Muqla to Persian artists

Per Brittanica, this 9th century Persian calligrapher invented naskh (script), tawqi and thuluth, and was thrice vizier of the Abbasid Caliphate. starship .paint (RUN) 07:00, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

as nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 11:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Discussion - standard for a V5 actor?

If I may suggest, we can establish a standard for V5 actors by naming actors that do meet this level of vitality, and comparing the rest of the entries on the list to this group. If the other entries are not on this level, they should be removed. I have listed 10 relatively modern English-speaking actors below, of various nationalities. How does everyone feel about this list? Do these 10 set a good enough standard? Is there any one of these 10 that are not on the others' level?

starship .paint (RUN) 01:52, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Iostn, OlifanofmrTennant, Makkool, Tabu Makiadi, and Aurangzebra: - who participated in an actors' discussion above. starship .paint (RUN) 01:54, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Starship.paint: I would swap Downey with someone else maybe George Clooney 5. I I think removals should happen and a standered set. This seems to be exclusively film actors and not stage or television. For stage Derek Jacobi 5 and maybe Michael Hordern 5?
I have made a list of TV actors
1. Neil Patrick Harris 5
2. Andy Griffith 5
3. Bryan Cranston 5
4. Mr. T 5
5. William Hartnell 5
6. George Takei 5
7. Ed Asner 5
8. James Hong 5
9. Kelsey Grammer 5
10. Peter Dinklage 5 or David Tennant 5
I think these 10 fit. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 05:32, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@OlifanofmrTennant: - I am not as familiar about TV or stage actors. I listed Downey as due to him possibly being the highest-grossing lead actor of all time. Though, Clooney is fine as well. Not sure about Takei though, surely he is outshined by Leonard Nimoy 5 or William Shatner 5? starship .paint (RUN) 07:38, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Starship.paint: Oh I didn't know the about Downey. I would be willing to swap Takei out for Nimoy or Shatner Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 15:25, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Starship.paint I generally like this list. However, I think I would remove Keanu Reeves and Arnold Schwarzenegger. I think the 'golden' standard list should include actors who are both popular in the mainstream and have won a substantial amount of acting awards over their career. Reeves and Schwarzenegger achieve the first criteria but not the second. I would possibly consider replacing them with Denzel Washington 5 or Samuel L. Jackson 5 (in fact, I would take both of them on this list over most of the current inclusions). Aurangzebra (talk) 02:49, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree on Reeves and Schwarzenegger. Schwarzenegger has more prestigious awards as an bodybuilder than as an actor. So we could list him in athletes like Jet Li for martial arts. Reeves has been in popular movies, but he might not reach the acting acclaim criteria. Makkool (talk) 11:39, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say Schwarzenegger is still much more culturally influential as an actor than as a bodybuilder. A limitation of awards, no single proxy for vitality is infallible.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 12:37, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Aurangzebra, Makkool, LaukkuTheGreit, and OlifanofmrTennant: - well, as a sidestep of an acting award, Schwarzenegger won an election to become Governor of California in 2003, having never held public office before, and having retired from bodybuilding in 1980. What led him to win is left as an exercise for the reader. starship .paint (RUN) 12:59, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But if we are looking for a gold standard to compare our actors to, wouldn't it not make sense to include him then? How would he compare him to other actors if we have to factor in his political career? Aurangzebra (talk) 16:24, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd feel better about these lists if the WHY accompanied the WHO. (Related, since I see William Hartnell and David Tennant listed, is playing Doctor Who a mark of VA5?) _pbp 02:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tennant has been pretty prolific outside of Doctor Who. I wasn’t completely sure for the tenth entry that’s why I listed two. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 02:56, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And another question: is the "standard" the MOST VITAL that didn't make VA4, or is it the MEDIAN vitality of VA5-not-VA4? 02:58, 31 May 2024 (UTC) _pbp 02:58, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Purplebackpack89:, I'll explain my rational, I tried to create a diverse list.

Neil Patrick Harris was picked for How I Met Your Mother 5 as well as other shows, he has received serveral awards. He is openly gay and named one of times 100 Most Influential People in 2010.
Andy Griffith for the The Andy Griffith Show 5, he's in the Television Hall of Fame, a portion of US Highway 52 is dedicated to him.
Bryan Cranston, Malcolm in the Middle]] and Breaking Bad 5 he's receved extensive awards. In recent years he's done a lot of broadway acting,
Mr. T for The A-Team and his wrestling career, he had major role in Rocky 3. Possibly not as strong as the other entries.
William Hartnell for Doctor Who 4 and his other pretty long career.
George Takei for Star Trek 4. Takei is also a LGBT rights advicat being openly gay.

I can get too the others shortly would anyone like to propose any changes? Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 04:11, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Purplebackpack89: - for my film actors list, my hope is that it would be the median of V5. A 'just below V4' list would not be useful. starship .paint (RUN) 12:51, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let me consider this: the AFI list, the Kennedy Center Honors, and Academy Awards. Many of the people on the AFI list are VA4 and the ones that aren't are near the Top of VA5. Same deal with KCH. Academy Awards is kind of a mixed bag, because there doesn't seem to be a great correlation between winning an Academy Award in a particular year and being considered one of the greatest ever. That being said, probably the MEDIAN or average of a VA5-not-VA4 is one Academy Award. Daniel Day-Lewis has three lead actor awards, so I think he's ABOVE the median VA5-not-VA4 actor. _pbp* 16:48, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It would sound better to me to compare to lists by outside experts just as these, rather than to make a top ten yardstick ourselves. Makkool (talk) 18:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The right size?

I figure probably the right number of actors and actresses is somewhere between 300 and 400. So we have at least twice the actors and actresses as we should _pbp 19:53, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Purplebackpack89: It should presumably be split 50/50. 488 actors and 465 actresses. Both need to be cut by around half. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 01:16, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure if it should be 50-50. At least, when I looked at contemporary actresses, I don't see them being as vital as the contemporary actors. I think actors have more career longevity? Anyway, drastic cuts are needed, and anyone like Jared Leto absolutely need to go. starship .paint (RUN) 15:26, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

300 would be 5 times the amount of actors and actresses in V4, which should be just the right amount. Makkool (talk) 18:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Abdellatief Abouheif 5, Olga Brusnikina 5, and Anastasia Davydova 5

All three are stubs. Abouheif's Arabic article is a little bit longer, but he only has five interwikis. In contrast, while Brusnikina and Davydova both have at least twenty interwikis, they are all pretty stubby as much as their English article, including the Russian versions. (Roland Matthes 5 is also a stub, but he is a lot closer comparatively to start status, and he's considered the greatest backstroke swimmer of all time; for that, I'm not nominating him.)

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 07:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Hu Ronghua 5

Stub and only has 7 interwikis.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 07:36, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Xiangqi 4 might be level 4 but it is certaintly not on the same level as Chess 4 since it is only contained in one (large) country. These titles, the X, the best player of a famous sport, of Y, a niche sport, are thrown around a lot, so I don't think is meaningfull. The Blue Rider 21:52, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also the citation that support that he is often considered the Bobby Fischer of Xiangqi doesn't actually support that, the source in question just says he is the Bobby Fischer...so it doesn't support the often. The Blue Rider 22:06, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

He is considered the Bobby Fischer 4 of Xiangqi 4 (aka Chinese chess) and even had an effect on the rules of the game. Also, the article is not a stub and I have reassessed it as Start-Class. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:18, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Add Branimir of Croatia to politicians

Father of medieval Croatia

Support

Remove Guo Qiru 5, Hou Baolin 5, and Katsura Bunshi VI 5

I get the desire to be diverse, and the native versions of Hou's and especially Katsura's articles are in much better shape, but they each only have two to three interwikis.

Support

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Rock Steady Crew 5 and Crazy Legs (dancer) 5

I hate to do this, because I have heard people consider the Rock Steady Crew and Crazy Legs in particular as being very important to the development of breakdancing. But the Rock Steady Crew is in piss poor shape and only has eight interwikis, while Crazy Legs (whose article is at least decent) only has four.

Support

Reluctantly. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:43, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:34, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Will there be someone to represent breakdance or hip hop dance, if we remove them? Makkool (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove some pre-modern scientists

Last comment 2 months ago. Not removed 2-3. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:53, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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I'm just going to make a giant block request for this one. The scientists I'm about to list either have single-digit interwikis, stubs, or both. NOTE: IW = interwikis, P=Paragraphs

Agathodaemon (alchemist) 5 (2IW and 3P)
Aglaonice 5 (3P)
Ahmes 5 (1P)
Callippus 5 (4P)
Cleopatra the Physician 5 (4IW and 4P)
Du Shi 5 (8IW)
Menaechmus 5 (6P)
Pandrosion 5 (5P)
Pingala 5 (4P)
Pseudo-Democritus 5 (3IW)
Tapputi 5 (3P)
Zhang Zhongjing 5 (6P)
Adelle of the Saracens 5 (3IW and 4P)
Anthemius of Tralles 5 (6P)
Dobrodeia of Kiev 5 (4P)
Ibn Sahl (mathematician) 5 (4P)
Al-ʻIjliyyah 5 (Throwing this in because almost all of the paragraphs consists of a single sentence.)
Jia Xian 5 (9IW and 3P)
Mahāvīra (mathematician) 5 (4P)
Qin Jiushao 5 (6P)
Yang Hui 5 (6P)
Zhu Shijie 5 (5P)

Support

Oppose

Keep Mahāvīra (mathematician) and Pingala at least. J 947 ‡ ^edits 05:32, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose all on principle. These kinds of block nominations completely lack nuance and end up making some wild assumptions based on very little. Take Aglaonice, for example; her article may be relatively short and underdeveloped, but she was one of the first astronomers documented to have learned the cycle of lunar eclipses, has 37 interwikis, and has had a species of moth and a crater of Venus named after her. But the nominator wants her removed because of article quality and no other assessment? --Grnrchst (talk) 14:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The more I look at it, the worse it gets. Menaechmus, who discovered conic sections and has 29 interwikis; Tapputi, who was one of the first recorded chemists and has 24 interwikis; Zhang Zhongjing, who contributed so much to his period's medical understanding that he is held to be a sage, 23 interwikis; Anthemius of Tralles, the architect of the Hagia Sophia(!!!) and has 39 interwikis. It is astounding that these are all lumped together in a block removal proposal for no other reason than their articles aren't very long... --Grnrchst (talk) 14:43, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the above. We can't just remove biographies on the basis that they're short don't have interwikis. These articles should be based on the contribution of their respective discipline in the context of the time. The whole point of WP:VITAL isn't to document Wikipedia's best articles, but to highlight the ones which are significant in the context of history. Thus, only sound reasoning outlining specifically the contribution (or lack thereof) of each individual person should be all that is considered when removing or adding articles. I am opposed to this removal and I am opposed to this style of 'block nominations'. Idiosincrático (talk) 14:39, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

User:Grnrchst, User:Idiosincrático: OK, first off, you guys know you can easily just say "Keep so-and-so" right? Second, the entire purpose of this project is to find globally relevant articles and bring them to at least good article quality. So yes, I do think that article quality and the amount of interwikis are good indication to judge vitality. If an article have spent most of its existence of with only a handful of paragraphs, that indicates that it's not possible to improve it. If an article has only a handful of interwikis, that indicates that it's not globally relevant. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:46, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Remove some world musicians

I hate to say this because we do need a more global array of people for this project, but I am coming across a lot of musicians with single digit interwikis. I am going to do a block request for each section and list the people I want removed along with the amount of interwikis they have.

Remove some non-Western art musicians

Turgun Alimatov 5 (3)
Min Huifen 5 (2)
Daihachi Oguchi 5 (3)
Yatsuhashi Kengyo 5 (5)
Muthiah Bhagavatar 5 (4)
Buhurizade Mustafa Itri 5 (2)
Tanburi Büyük Osman Bey (0; already being discussed)

K. P. H. Notoprojo  5 (5)

Michio Miyagi  5 (8)

Swathi Thirunal Rama Varma  5 (8)

Mei Baojiu  5 (6)

Farida Parveen  5 (6)

Faramarz Payvar  5 (5)

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support all Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
remove unstruck per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Turgun Alimatov (only 116 views in the past month) and Min Huifen (96). Iostn (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Remove the unstruck, except for Muthiah Bhagavatar and Buhurizade Mustafa Itri. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:04, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose removing Muthiah Bhagavatar and Buhurizade Mustafa Itri. Iostn (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Hesitant to remove some of these, but I think the intent is to cut Artists, musicians, and composers section down to quota Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove some religious musicians

WITHDRAWN

Withdrawn by nom. Makkool (talk) 11:15, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Support

~~#SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)~~[reply]

I hereby withdraw this proposal. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Shlomo Carlebach ("the foremost Jewish religious songwriter of the 20th century") and Junoon ("Pakistan's and one of South Asia's most successful bands"), remove the rest. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Lord Kitchener (calypsonian) 5

Luckily for the Caribbean section, Kitchener is the only one with less than ten interwikis (4).

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Regardless of interwikis he is quite clearly influential in the development of calypso, and pageviews are far higher than many of the others being proposed here. Iostn (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Remove the entire klezmer sectionSwap Dave Tarras with Giora Feidman

~~I'm already requesting the removal of Josef Gusikov, but the other two (Naftule Brandwein 5 and Dave Tarras 5) also have single digit interwikis (9 and 3 respectively).~~ On second thought, I am just going to nominate Tarras for removal. To keep Brandwein from being lonely, I am also going to advocate adding Giora Feidman. I think Fiedman the only klezmer musician with double-digit interwiki figures.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support swap Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

@User:Makkool, proposal has been changed. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove some non-English pop musicians

Gong Qiuxia  5 (9)

Teng Yu-hsien  5 (7)

Boudewijn de Groot  5 (8)

Irakli Charkviani  5 (7)

Kaveret  5 (9)

Vali Rácz  5 (6)

Abrar-ul-Haq  5 (8)

Narayan Gopal  5 (9)

Aruna Lama  5 (8)

Dewa 19  5 (8)

Didi Kempot  5 (9)

Koes Plus  5 (5)

Ichirō Fujiyama  5 (6)

Michiya Mihashi  5 (8)

Pink Lady (duo)  5 (9)

The Stalin  5 (7)

Ros Serey Sothea  5 (9)

Drunken Tiger  5 (8)

Shin Joong-hyun  5 (7)

Cartola  5 (9)

Lydia Mendoza  5 (6)

Menudo (group)  5 (5)

Felipe Pinglo Alva  5 (9)

Rodrigo (musician)  5 (7)

Vikingarna (band)  5 (8)

Eraserheads  5 (6)

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep APO Hiking Society, Vital Signs and Azam Khan - remove the rest. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support removing Phyu Phyu Kyaw Thein (unclear if she is one of the most notable Burmese pop musicians), Muboraksho Mirzoshoyev and Sarantuya.
Remove unstruck, except for Khan. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:06, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose removing Azam Khan, Vital Signs, Lee Mi-ja (Trot is an important older form of Korean pop music), Awie, W. D. Amaradeva and APO Hiking Society.

Discuss

Azam Khan was voted in only three months ago. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove some African musicians

Ayinde Barrister  5 (6)

Diamond Platnumz  5 (9)

Eusèbe Jaojoby  5 (7)

Jua Cali  5 (5)

Mamady Keïta  5 (7)

Tunde King  5 (5)

Mahotella Queens  5 (8)

Thomas Mapfumo  5 (9)

Siti binti Saad  5 (9)

Tilahun Gessesse  5 (7)

Lourdes Van-Dúnem  5 (8)

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:41, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support all. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
remove unstruck per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Mahmoud Guinia, Lady Jaydee, Daniel Owino Misiani and Wazimbo. Iostn (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose removing Ayub Ogada and Le Grand Kallé. Iostn (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

General comments

I really do not understand why this is being judged using interwikis as the sole metric for measuring vitality, not to mention that bloc nominations have been criticised many times before for being hard to implement on voting. Another massive problem with this is for the "African popular music" section, where you are using interwiki links to measure vitality while African languages are notorious for being underrepresented and thus automatically have a disadvantage if you are using those to measure vitality - as can be seen by the fact that the number of those nominated for removal equals half the entire articles listed in the section. As such I'm effectively opposing all of these proposals in the current state, at least until they are being looked at individually. Iostn (talk) 10:02, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I expressed concerns for this type of viewpoint on a different proposal on a different talk page. Per WP:SYSBIAS, it is proven that Wikipedia has a general bias against developing nations and leaves their articles generally less developed. This also applies to whether or not the articles exist on other language Wikipedias. Also speaking from that viewpoint, some of these proposals would leave Western musicians, an already messy session, vastly over-represented. I can get behind using interwikis for some proposals (it made sense for stuff like the television hosts), but it just doesn't make sense her per the SYSBIAS essay. λ NegativeMP1 16:48, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Where have bloc nominations been criticised? I don't take a stand on systemic bias, but if we intend to make any progress in cutting the sections over-quota by over a hundred articles, we need to think of new ideas than having just individual nominations. Makkool (talk) 17:05, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can agree with you on that, as I do think massive cuts are needed, but my concern is more or less that we should be cautious, and interwikis may not be the best metric for 100% of nominations. λ NegativeMP1 18:11, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of country of origin, having 0 or 1 interwikis is a red flag. If you want to compensate for underrepresentation of Africans, maybe the rule of thumb should be 5 interwikis in the Third World and 10 in the First... _pbp 23:02, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Makkool, @Iostn, @User:NegativeMP1: After much thought, I decided to withdraw my nominations for mostly everyone with more than five interwikis due to the issues brought up (so just close my religious section request). I am also withdrawing my nominations for K. P. H. Notoprojo (he is probably the biggest name in gamelan), Faramarz Payvar (his Persian article kind of indicates he is a major Persian traditional musician), Koes Plus (six of their albums are on Rolling Stone Indonesia's 150 Greatest Indonesian Albums of All Time list), Menudo (one of the biggest boy bands), Jua Cali (represents genge), and Tunde King (founder of jùjú music). I'm still going to nominate those with less than five interwikis (that's still too small to be on here), along with Yatsuhashi Kengyo (stub), Awie (does not have at Rate Your Music page, although his previous band Wings does have one), Sarantuya (stub), Muboraksho Mirzoshoyev (does not have at Rate Your Music page), Christy Essien-Igbokwe (she was originally listed under the music industry figures for reasons I just can't find), and Ayub Ogada (I'm not seeing anything that makes him vital). SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've finally gone through and attempted to vote on these, but I think many of those that were withdrawn could've easily gone anyways, regardless of however many times the article has been translated. Iostn (talk) 23:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Swap Kander and Ebb 5 with John Kander and Fred Ebb

Other than four other Wikipedias, no one has bothered to write a page on the songwriter pairing itself. Kander and Ebb themselves at least have 18 and 15 interwikis respectively, however.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:05, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Bryan brothers 5 with Bob Bryan and Mike Bryan

Same thing as above, although at least the article about this pair has at least nine interwikis. (Bob and Mike themselves have 36 and 34.) Admittedly, Kander and Ebb at least makes up for that for not treating the article on their pairing as the main one.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:24, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

They are known for their doubles career and not for their individual accomplishments. Aurangzebra (talk) 13:36, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Remove Christian Samuel Weiss

Only three paragraphs.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:57, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Lakandula 5

Only four interwikis.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:13, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
~~Makkool (talk) 12:50, 23 June 2024 (UTC)~~[reply]

Oppose

Appears to be a significant pre-colonial ruler who is still commemorated today in the Philippines in the present day, interwikis are not a great way of measuring vitality for something as underrepresnted as pre-colonial historical figures in the Global South Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per above Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

PBP popular music cuts

Remove Joan Armatrading

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 19:28, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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I don't see anything at all to indicate vitality. No Grammies, no #1 single or album, nothing.

Support

_pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think she was just put on here to fill up the Caribbean section, which as I mentioned when I moved her to the general pop section, she did not fit beyond being born there. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discussion

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Remove Al Bowlly

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 19:28, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Maybe it's because his article's poorly written, but I'm not seeing enough evidence that he's VA5. Only 11 interwikis which is underwhelming for a pop figure. _pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think he's the biggest name in British dance band? But yeah, just remove him. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove The Shirelles 5

Doesn't have the acclaim of some of the other groups on here. _pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discussion

On the one hand, they recorded "Will You Love Me Tomorrow" and "Tonight's the Night". On the other hand, they were not as big as The Supremes or as critically loved as The Ronettes. Neutral overall. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove The Wiggles 5

FAILED

Not removed 1-3. Makkool (talk) 13:35, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Very little chart success in Australia and almost none outside of it. _pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

The article demonstates their influence well. Children's music is a genre where vitality doesn't translate well to chart success. We should also list some other children's music artist besides Alvin and the Chipmunks. Makkool (talk) 19:54, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per Makkool. If we're judging solely within the context of children's music, they're the biggest act of all time. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

_pbp 19:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Remove Francis II of France

Only ruled for one year. Was basically just a pawn for his mother.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:40, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

US actors removals

These were suggested above in the Casey Affleck / Jared Leto proposal, which just passed. I'll open them up for discussion, where we could also test the criteria to include an actor in V5. Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Rami Malek 5

Could he be too recent new actor where it's not clear if his career will be vital? He's an Academy Award winner though.

Support

I think there should be more than one Academy Award to be automatically vital. Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 20:59, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:07, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Forest Whitaker 5

An esteemed character actor, whose also an Academy Award winner. Although most of his acclaim is from a role in one specific film, The Last King of Scotland.

Support

I think there should be more than one Academy Award to be automatically vital. Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 21:00, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:07, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

He's a prominent black actor. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:33, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Remove Zac Efron

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 13:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Star of a hit franchise, High School Musical, and now has a career doing character roles. No major awards.

Support

No basis for vitality Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is High School Musical even vital? SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:33, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 02:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Chris Cooper

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 13:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Another esteemed character actor, who's an Academy Award winner.

Support

I think there should be more than one Academy Award to be automatically vital. Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:33, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As the person who first brought this up Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove James Franco 5

Golden Globe winner, but his career seems to have petered out because of sexual misconduct allegations.

Support

Only an Academy Award nomination. Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 02:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:27, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 21:00, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:07, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Seth Rogen 5

FAILED

Not removed 2-2. Makkool (talk) 13:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Golden Globe nominations. Has starred in popular comedies, but it might be too early to say anything about his legacy in film comedy.

Support

Support for now Makkool (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

He is way too big to be removed. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:33, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Lady Jane Grey

Unlike Empress Matilda, whose claim to the throne lasted for years, Grey's claim to the throne only lasted for nine days.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:58, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:54, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove some British Prime Ministers

These PMs only had the position for about a year or so.

Remove Spencer Compton, 1st Earl of Wilmington

Only about seventeen months.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:02, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove William Cavendish, 4th Duke of Devonshire

Only seven months.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:25, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove John Stuart, 3rd Earl of Bute

Only about eleven months.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:39, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Charles Watson-Wentworth, 2nd Marquess of Rockingham

Only has an accumulated tenure of fifteen months.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:22, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Augustus FitzRoy, 3rd Duke of Grafton

Only about fifteen months.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:45, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove William Petty, 2nd Earl of Shelburne

Only about eight months.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:13, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 07:19, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Abdel Fattah al-Burhan

Head of state of Sudan since 2019. Leads the Sudanese Armed Forces (SAF) against the Rapid Support Forces (RSF) in the ongoing War in Sudan. He also botched the Sudanese transition to democracy.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Joseph Kasa-Vubu

First President of the Democratic Republic of the Congo (from only five today), serving from 1960 to 1965. His tensions with Patrice Lumumba 4 were one of the causes of the Congo Crisis 5. Also, the DRC has 105 million people and only 4 politicians.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:12, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Friedrich Ebert

He is sometimes viewed as the world’s first social democratic head of state and one of the only three “real” Presidents of Germany from 1918 to 1945. His legacy is complex and controversial, particularly concerning the crises that led to Hitler's rise to power.

Support

As nominator. To politicians. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Georgi Plekhanov

Known as “the father of Russian Marxism”, he was undeniably an immense influence on the Bolsheviks, who gave him the rare distinction of admiring him despite his misgivings towards them.

Support

As nominator. To revolutionaries. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Sylvia Pankhurst

Arguably a more effective activist than her mother, Emmeline Pankhurst 4, her work was characterized by a commitment to what we would today call intersectionality. Focusing on class and gender, she was one of the leading European figures for decolonization and was active on three continents.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Surprised there isn't an article on the Pankhurst family Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The pre-eminent figure of the early British communist movement and very influential in soliciting allied support for Ethiopia. 34 interwikis, averages 245 page views per day. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Nadezhda Krupskaya

Russian revolutionary who played an important role in the October Revolution 5 and as an architect of the early Soviet system, particularly education and women’s rights.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 00:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Sophus Lie

Norwegian mathematician best known for his contributions to Lie algebra 5s and Lie group 5s, named after him.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 16:54, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom Mathwriter2718 (talk) 13:42, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Honoré I, Lord of Monaco

There's been rumbling around here regarding the ratio of the population of a country and the amount of leaders that we made vital. I should note that Monaco has nine people on here despite having a population of less than 40k. I'm going to nominate this guy; I'm just not seeing anything that would make him vital.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:17, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:31, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Adrian Lamo 5

Other than exposing Chelsea Manning 5, I cant really think of a reason to keep him here. He hacked a bunch of high-profile companies, but I don't think that enough to make him vital.

Support

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Tron (hacker) 5

Other than maybe his naming controversy, I don't think he's vital. We have too many phreakers in this list. I don't think he's the notable levels of John Draper 5 and I never heard of his name.

Support

49p (talk) 17:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:29, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Might I suggest swapping for Markus Hess, who was involved in a significent espionage incident? Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

His case seems big, but I'm not sure about his legacy. To be fair, I don't thinks any computer hacker's legacy are big as Kevin Mitnick

5 or even Gary McKinnon

5. Which sucks, cause I honestly never heard of this guy and he seems very talented.

I honestly think computer hackers should be reduced. It should be around the numbers of the espionage section, which has eight articles. Those eight articles are arguably important to each country's history, and I feel like hackers should be like that. 49p (talk) 17:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

fwiw, I think there should actually be more entries listed under espionage (even though in many cases there's an overlap with other fields) Iostn (talk) 18:07, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Weezer

Not sure why these guys arent listed? Weezer (Blue Album) and Pinkerton (album) are considered to one of the greatest album of 1990s. Not to mention, but Pinkerton (album) is extremely known to be influential in Emo 5 and Alternative rock 5. I even think Pinkerton is possibly enough on its own to be vital. I guess these guys are ignored because popularity ≠ vitality, but I think they have a chance here.

Support

49p (talk) 17:50, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I could also see a case for Pinkerton being vital, since it alone seems to have been decently influential, has a lot of post-release acclaim, and a perfect 100 on Metacritic. λ NegativeMP1 02:31, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:15, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose
Discuss

Add Bad Brains

Known for influencing Foo Fighters 5, Beastie Boys 5, Rage Against the Machine, Red Hot Chili Peppers 5 etc. Known for combining Reggae 4 with Hardcore punk 5 and Alternative metal. It is also known for being a Rastafari 4 band, and one of the earliest Hardcore punk 5 pioneers.

Support

49p (talk) 06:46, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Not a well-known band and some of the bands they've influenced are likely to also be removed _pbp 13:25, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean by well-known? Do you mean mainstream? Sure, but there's a bunch of bands we list that aren't really "mainstream", but defining for the genre. For bands they've influenced, I guess you're right here. However, there's pretty clear bands that are definitely vital like Guns N' Roses 5 or Nirvana (band) 4, so the claim isn't really lost.

I think Bad Brains are vital in the same reason on why we list Black Flag (band) 5, Minor Threat 5, or Dead Kennedys 5. Is there something that I'm missing to why they aren't vital? 49p (talk) 02:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Musicians and bands is very bloated right now and the bands that didn't achieve long-term success or have many chart-topping hits are either not going to be removed or not going to be added in the first place _pbp 13:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Remove Agüeybaná II and Cunhambebe

Both only have three interwikis. Wish I can think of another historical native Brazilian leader to replace the latter, but I can't. The Taíno still have Hatuey 5 though.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:59, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 07:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

We should probably have more Native American leaders, not fewer _pbp 13:24, 6 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Add Edmund Andros

Think we can have one more colonial American administrator. Rated high-importance on a lot of WikiProjects, he was the Governor of New York for nine years, the Governor of Virginia for almost six years, and the Governor of Maryland for a couple of months. But what makes him vital in my opinion is his role as the Royal Governor of the Dominion of New England, where he pissed off everyone so much that he was immediately overthrown once word of the Glorious Revolution reach the colonies.

Support

SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

I'm 50/50 on this one. Were I listing American colonial figures close to VA5 but not there (call it VA5.5 if you will), Andros is one of the omissions; so are the Calverts, James Oglethorpe and Peter Stuyvesant (the latter an interesting one because a) New York is currently the largest of the 13 former colonies, and b) Stuyvesant would be the only non-British colonial figure on the list.) This also seems to fly somewhat in the face of when, earlier this year, we removed quite a few Usonian American politicians, some of whom have as good or better claim to this spot. Those removals would also suggest against a consensus for more Usonian _pbp 03:26, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Willie O'Ree

First black National Hockey League player. Although not the first person of color in the NHL, O'Ree is widely regarded as the "Jackie Robinson of hockey".

Would be added to Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Sports figures#Wingers.

Support

As nom. B3251_(talk) 21:43, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Keir Starmer

New UK prime minister.

Support

As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 21:50, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

If he lasts into 2025... _pbp 01:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Vito Volterra

Regarded as a founder of Functional analysis 4. Known for multiple equations, including Lotka–Volterra equations 5.

Support

As nom. B3251_(talk) 02:58, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:44, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Leah Keshet with D'Arcy Wentworth Thompson

Thompson is far more notable under the topic of mathematical and theoretical biology. Well known for On Growth and Form, his work has influenced incredibly notable academics including Alan Turing 3, Claude Lévi-Strauss 4, Le Corbusier 4, and Ludwig Mies van der Rohe 4.

Support

As nom. B3251_(talk) 03:12, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:13, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:43, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Florence La Badie with Rachel McAdams

Plenty of more notable Canadian actresses. Proposing a swap with Rachel McAdams so that a modern Canadian actress can be added, which, as far as I'm aware, we don't have yet.

Support

As nom. B3251_(talk) 03:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support remove for now Makkool (talk) 11:31, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Peter Mansbridge

Broadcast journalists and commentators is pretty American/Australian-centric at the moment, with most of the 80 articles listed being from either of the two countries. There currently isn't a Canadian/Canadian-based broadcast journalist in this category and I feel that Mansbridge is probably the most notable of them. To justify the lack of interwikis, many other journalists currently listed in this category also don't have much interwikis either.

Support

As nom. B3251_(talk) 16:50, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Long career at the head of a major network, lots of awards, and the article is rated High-Importance by WikiProject Canada. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:01, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Johnny Sins

Zero explanation needed.

Support

As nom. B3251_(talk) 17:43, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seemingly very popular and prolific. 40 interwikis. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:56, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove John Kennedy Toole 5

We still have way too many modern American/Canadian writers (currently over 280) and this guy is seemingly one of the least important people still listed. Not every Pulitzer Prize in Fiction winner is vital (we already do not list all of them) and this guy has little else going for him. Two obscure books, published posthumously, with minimal influence. There are plenty of topics and people that I would rather list.

Support

As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:53, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:54, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Oppose. I consider A Confederacy of Dunces 5 to be a classic (and it seems like other editors agree by including it on VA5). It is listed as the 227th greatest book of all time on the aggregator site Greatest Books [1]. We include plenty of other "one-hit wonder" authors (off a quick glance, examples include Alex Haley 5 and Kate Chopin 5) so I think it's fair we include the author of one of the staples of Southern literature. If we want to remove some authors from this list, there are so many better contenders e.g. Tucker Max 5 whose work has aged incredibly poorly and Andrew Neiderman whose two novels with Wikipedia articles have 0 interwikis. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:59, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Aurangzebra: With Haley and Chopin, they each have several stories with articles. Toole only has two. They also have significantly more recognition and awards than Toole, who only received one award. For this situation, especially considering the fact that the book was published posthumously and the fact that writers in general is well over the quota, I think it would be fine to list the book without also listing the author. BTW, thanks for the suggestion for Neiderman, I nominated him for removal below. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:20, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair opinion. I don't think I'll change my vote mainly because I feel like it doesn't make sense to a list a novel in VA5 and not also include its author but I do respect the reasoning behind the counterpoints. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:36, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

Visual artists and musicians removal

Remove Horiyoshi III

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 17:24, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Japanese tattoo artist. Made more sense when we had internal quotas, but his recognition seems regional at most.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 02:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Lev Borodulin

PASSED

Removed 5-0. Makkool (talk) 17:24, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Russian and Israeli sports photographer. His article does not assert much vitality, and the Russian version is quite short too.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. The article is barely intelligible. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Elizabeth Zimmermann 5

British-born hand-knitting teacher and designer. Relatively obscure figure. Only 2 interwikis.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Sailor Jerry 5

Another tattoo artist who probably doesn’t make the cut with the internal quotas gone.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

High pageviews, may be a niche subject relatively speaking but that indicates he's important enough to list when we don't include many tatooists anyway. Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Remove Robert Trent Jones 5

Golf course designer. I struggle to think he is among the 120 or so most important architects.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Nico

PASSED

Removed 6-0. Makkool (talk) 11:33, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I appreciate the uniqueness of her discography, but she was never very successful, critically or commercially, and accusations of racism have tarnished her cult status. Falls a little short of other 1970s folk-rock artists we don’t have, like Jackson Browne, Randy Newman, and Bob Seger, and is included within the The Velvet Underground & Nico 5 article.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
04:57, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think VU & Nico is sufficient, as she's rather niche outside of that. Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 13:07, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Daniel O'Donnell

PASSED

Removed 5-0. Makkool (talk) 17:24, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Irish country singer. Stands out for his chart consistency, but not much else.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 19:11, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Too regional in terms of success, even within the English-speaking world. Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Barry Manilow 5

We have excluded several musicians due to their lack of commercial success despite some critical recognition and influence. But what about the opposite? Let’s test this on someone whose lede admits he was “not a favorite artist of music critics”.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

His commercial success and popularity has been world-wide, and not limited to his country of origin. We shouldn't only list critical darlings. Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Remove Journey (band) 5

FAILED

Not removed 1-3. Makkool (talk) 17:24, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Similar to the above. Possible classic rock bias.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

I agree that there is likely a bias towards classic rock, but I say this one crosses the bar based on the impact of Don't Stop Believin', which has been inducted into the National Recording Registry for being culturally significant, and is also the best selling song digitally from the twentieth century in the United States. Similar bands from this time like Foreigner (band) 5, on the other hand, should be more likely candidates to be removed since they took way longer to get into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, have sold way less certified units than Journey, and don't have a song that even the government considers important. λ NegativeMP1 04:56, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per above. A popular artist on several continents, Europe and Asia too and not just North America. Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

I need more guidance as to how many bands of each genre we want to list before I vote. _pbp 15:34, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really think there's a definitive "we want this many" for each genre. But for me personally I'd only start voting to remove Journey if we decided to only have something like (for this example) 50 rock artists at V5, but before that point I'd say they should be listed before Foreigner, Boston, Chicago, and some others. λ NegativeMP1 17:08, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Vanilla Ice

PASSED

Removed 4-0. Makkool (talk) 17:24, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Similar to the above. Today, he is largely a one-hit wonder, and the claim that he introduced the genre to White audiences has been exaggerated, given that the Beastie Boys went platinum in the 1980s.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:42, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 11:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 09:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Mary Anning

“She became known internationally for her discoveries in Jurassic marine fossil beds in the cliffs along the English Channel at Lyme Regis in the county of Dorset, Southwest England. Anning's findings contributed to changes in scientific thinking about prehistoric life and the history of the Earth.”

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 13:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
J 947 ‡ ^edits 05:07, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:35, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Marguerite Perey

French physicist best known for her discovery of Francium 4.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 13:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
She discovered an element, was nominated for a Nobel prize five times, and was the first woman elected to the Académie des Sciences. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:08, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per Grnrchst. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:56, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Maria Margarethe Kirch

German astronomer who is regarded as one of the most prolific women scientists of the 18th century.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 13:0, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Nettie Stevens

American geneticist credited with discovering sex chromosomes.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 13:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Iostn (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How is she not listed? QuicoleJR (talk) 18:58, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Robert Altman

The amount of American directors is admittedly a little too high, and there are probably a few names we could take out. That said, Robert Altman should definitely be added, he's a hugely influential director whose films often show up on "greatest movies" lists, none of which are also vital at this level.

Support

as nominator. The helper5667
Support. 5 films in the top 1000 films of all time and 49th in the list of greatest directors of all time according to the critical aggregator TSPDT [2] ahead of other notable American directors we do list such as Terrence Malick 5, Quentin Tarantino 4, and the Coen brothers 5. Aurangzebra (talk) 19:52, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 12:09, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:09, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove István Fekete 5

Obscure Hungarian children's author, article does not make him seem vital enough. Writers is over quota as well.

Support

As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:10, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Magda Szabó, Antal Szerb, and Sándor Márai are better bets to join Imre Kertész 5 and Jókai as far as Hungarian writers go. J 947 ‡ ^edits 09:52, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

His book Vuk is very popular and has been translated to many languages. It might be considered an enduring classic only in its origin country, but I would still keep this to lessen Western European and US bias. Makkool (talk) 18:19, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral

Discuss

Might be worth noting that several Hungarian sources describe Fekete as the second most widely-read Hungarian author, after Mór Jókai 5.[3][4][5][6] --Grnrchst (talk) 15:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Jean Eustache 5

Seems to be most well-known for directing one acclaimed feature film, making only one other feature-length film and several little-known short films. That seems way off vital level.

Support

As nom Iostn (talk) 19:28, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 20:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

105th best director of all time according to the TSPDT aggregator [7]. We list 433 directors. With that many slots, I think everyone in the top 150-200 deserves a spot (and for the most part, we do this; I took a quick look through the list and we list almost every director above Eustache with a few exceptions such as Robert Altman proposed above). Aurangzebra (talk) 23:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would it be reasonable to list The Mother and the Whore instead, since most of his vitality seems to be linked to that film alone? Iostn (talk) 19:08, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Minimum appearances for VA5 entertainers

I propose the following bare minimums:

A film actor needs to appear in at least five films
A television actor or host needs to have done it for at least three seasons
A director needs to have directed at least five films or at least a dozen television episodes
Producers or other crew...same as directors

_pbp 20:41, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 20:45, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like a safe minimum. I don't think a vital person that has fewer than this could be listed. 49p (talk) 22:58, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

I'm not really sure that we need hard quotas for this. This is a reasonable standard by all means but there are exceptions that make sense and if there are any exceptions, there doesn't seem to be a point to codifying a quota. Two examples off the top of my head that I don't think anyone would vote to remove: Jean Vigo 5 is an extremely influential French New Wave inspiration who is considered the 44th best director of all time according to the TSPDT aggregator. He only directed 4 films (and only 1 of these was a full-length feature film). Another example is James Dean 5. He was an iconic actor and is still extremely well-known to this day but has only appeared in 3 credited roles before his untimely death. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:27, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Vitality is relative, a VA5 topic should be taken out due to voters feeling that there are 50000 more vital ones. They can be vital for a variety of reasons, and any hard prescriptive stat requirement could turn out to be prematurely thought out (even if better stats often but not always indicate more vitality).--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 06:19, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think a statistical minimum for inclusion on the list is not a good idea. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:31, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

To @Aurangzebra: and @LaukkuTheGreit:, I ask this: how many fewer entertainers should VA5 have, and what's your plan to reduce it to that number? There's consensus that entertainers are greatly bloated, esp. in proportion to VA4, but what's the plan to clean it up? _pbp 15:38, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Purplebackpack89: I actually did have an idea for this. I think the hard part about deciding who to remove is that we don't know every person listed at first glance, so we have to go out of their way to skim their Wikipedia article, assess the stats, and come up with a judgment before we decide to make a proposal. This process takes a long time. What I've explored doing (I am currently doing this with American and Canadian modern authors and I will have a batch of proposals out soon) is passing the entire list to an LLM service (I use GPT-4o through my work) and asking it to give a few paragraphs of summary on their biography, accomplishments, their legacy, and why people would consider them notable. It is surprisingly easy to see if something is a candidate for removal from these bite-sized summaries that take a few seconds to skim through. In my opinion, we should do this for all our VA5 articles (this may be easier for People as opposed to concepts), post these somewhere, and have people skim through them to get an idea of what we can remove.

I may try doing this tonight for actors and posting it on some public repository somewhere (maybe my user page) so you can get an idea of what I'm talking about. Let me know what you think. Aurangzebra (talk) 17:18, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Go ahead and try it. Farming it out to AI may be the easiest way to do it, even if I have some philosophical objections to AI use. I wonder what AI would generate if we ask it "Top 100 American actors" or something similar _pbp 18:02, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Go ahead and try it. Farming it out to AI may be the easiest way to do it, even if I have some philosophical objections to AI use. I wonder what AI would generate if we ask it "Top 100 American actors" or something similar _pbp 19:21, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've been waiting/hoping that User:Zar2gar1 (or someone else) eventually makes the stat-based vitality estimator that has occasionally been talked about. Although VA participants, including me in my oppose vote just above, have cautioned against overreliance on stats, there is still a notable correlation; the way I envision the estimator to be used is to quickly find articles with weak or strong vitality claims, with nominators focusing more on the claims than stats.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 18:36, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Evanescence 5

Very popular, but I don't think they're a vital band. Other than Fallen, I don't see how this is vital more than missing bands like Weezer (voting here). Seems really similar to the case of why we removed Bring Me the Horizon.

Support

49p (talk) 15:41, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
After thinking about this for a bit, I agree. They had very little long term success (or at least, not enough) that would lead me to consider them one of the few hundred most important artists of all time. I'm not sure how many artists from that era would be able to remain vital, honestly. Would love to be proven wrong, though. λ NegativeMP1 17:18, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you're saying "artists from that era" as in the alternative/punk music released in 2000s, then we could probably cut some bands. For example, the punk section has bands like Fall Out Boy  5, Paramore  5 and Avril Lavigne  5 from the era. All successfully, but not really influential. The only band that would survive vitality from the era like Blink-182  5 and Green Day  5 (if they even count to be from that era). 49p (talk) 18:13, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't say Blink-182 and Green Day count as being from that era, but I agree with everything else you've said. I would remove Journey before Green Day. λ NegativeMP1 23:55, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair, I only suggested those two cause they're bands that are definitely not getting removed but was somewhere close to the era.

However when I was checking the bands listed, I noticed that we only have three "emo" bands. Paramore  5. and Fall Out Boy  5 are the few emo bands (according to the genres they are listed on Wikipedia) we currently list. They're actually more akin to a emo-adjacent pop and are much further to pop-punk than emo. The only band we actually list that can be argued that is more closer to emo than pop-punk is My Chemical Romance  5. So we actually only have a single Emo  5 band, and we can probably make a swap to put a emo band. Don't know which band could be worthy of a swap however. 49p (talk) 00:25, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If this is proposing getting rid of My Chemical Romance in favor of another emo band, I think MCR is just as important of a group as Green Day. If you're referring to getting rid of another group in favor of another emo group (so that we can have two), then sure. λ NegativeMP1 17:41, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
MCR definitely isn't getting removed. I was thinking Avril Lavigne  5 could possibly be swapped. 49p (talk) 17:57, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm working on a batch of removals right now that will probably allow us to add another emo band without sacrificing Avril. I'm 50/50 on if she's vital or not (I know that back in the day she was extremely popular in Japan and China), and we should probably get rid of some of the lesser known/important guys (particularly in the classic rock and country areas) before we start taking out the bigger acts. Nevertheless, I still agree with your comments about us having a second emo act. λ NegativeMP1 01:56, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 17:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Bikini Kill 5

I loved their debut on Kill Rock Stars in 1993, and this band is influential to Riot grrrl era of music. But I think there are better ways of showcasing feminism in music, and this band is the weakest in the section it's currently listed. I don't believe this is a case where we list less commercially successful bands like Minor Threat 5, because they are the face of Hardcore punk 5 and DIY music. Bikini Kill is prominent in a sub-genre that we don't list, and we list some feminist bands already like Pussy Riot 5.

However I could be wrong, the cause seems like they have been lauded like Pitchfork giving their compilation album The Singles a perfect 10. I just don't think there's much justification to keep this band. Feel free to disagree.

Support

49p (talk) 16:12, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, too much of a niche artist. We used to list riot grrrl as a genre, but it got removed. Makkool (talk) 17:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 21:16, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

Add John C. Bogle

Founder of the The Vanguard Group 5. Known for his different approach to investing, abstaining from short-term speculation and popularizing the index fund to working-class individuals. His approach to investment is still widely used today, namely those who followed are called "Bogleheads".

Support

49p (talk) 00:43, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

Espionage additions

Above I said that the Espionage subsection under "Miscellaneous" probably should have more than eight listings. Granted there are some that could fit under it that are also under other categories (such as Markus Wolf 5 of the Stasi) but there are others who do not.

Add Eli Cohen

Mossad agent who infiltrated the Syrian government and was later executed, and remains a famed figure in Israeli society.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

@Iostn: - I have linked the espionage section in your comment. I think it is best practice to help closers. Thank you. starship .paint (RUN) 00:43, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Chevalier d'Éon

18th century French spy who has been the subject of intrigue for centuries, remains referenced in pop culture and is seen as a figure of transgender history.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Oleg Penkovsky

Since we already have numerous high profile British and American spies for the Soviet Union listed, here is one of the most high-profile examples of the reverse happening.

Support

As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Move Mata Hari 5 to espionage

Mata Hari is currently listed under dancers, but while most of her enduring fame wouldn't have been as widespread if she wasn't a spy, she was definitely also notable as a dancer. I don't have an opinion on this so I will not vote.

Support

J 947 ‡ ^edits 06:12, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most definitely being a spy merits her being on the list more than her dancing career. Makkool (talk) 15:56, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Iostn (talk) 18:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Swap: Remove B. J. Penn and Chuck Liddell, add George Hackenschmidt

MMA is overrepresented with 15 athletes despite being a considerably younger sport than wrestling. MMA is skewed toward the recent UFC; all fifteen entries were born in the last 61 years and competed in the last 31. 40% of them are American males; of those, Penn and Liddell appear to be the least notable; having the fewest overall wins, fewest title wins, and fewest interwikis.

George Hackenschmidt was the first world heavyweight wrestling champion, and also invented the bench press _pbp 13:47, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

_pbp 14:51, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Liddell and Hackenschmidt per nom. Neutral on Penn because he seems decently important. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:21, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

Add Kai Cenat

Proposing because a couple of editors preferred adding Cenat to Web entertainers and internet personalities in my proposal to add IShowSpeed.

Support

As nom. B3251_(talk) 15:40, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 13:57, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

Add Carl Woese

Helped define Archaea 3. Described on the ranks with Charles Darwin 3, Francis Crick 4, and James Watson 4. Helped revolutionize microbiology with 16S ribosomal RNA. 33 interwikis

Support

115.188.65.157 (talk) 08:00, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

Add Thomas Cavalier-Smith

Has proposed and defined many higher taxa such as Rhizaria 4, Excavata 4, Cryptomonad 4, Chromalveolata 4, Chromista 5, Euglenozoa 4, Bikont 5, Radiolaria 5, Cercozoa 5, Opisthokonta, and Viridiplantae. 28 interwikis

Support

115.188.65.157 (talk) 08:00, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

Add Armand Duplantis, possibly remove Renaud Lavillenie

He's only 24 but he has the last 9 world records in pole vault. Keep in mind that the 6 meter barrier in pole vault was considered an impossible feat until Sergey Bubka 4 finally broke it. A pole vault of 6 meters exactly would get you a gold at every single Olympics up to and including 2012. Duplantis' world record is 6.25m. This is a full 0.09 meters over the next best record (in a sport where <0.05 meters typically separates the best pole vaulters in competition). Even if Duplantis were to retire tomorrow, he would be VA5 material since he has already established himself as the greatest pole vaulter of all time.

If we must do a swap, I propose Renaud Lavillenie who held the world record before Duplantis. I personally do ~~not~~ want to remove him since he seems to be outclassed in every way by Duplantis. His only claim to fame was that he was the intermediate world record between Bubka and Duplantis but he only has 1 Olympic gold medal and 0 golds at the world championships. 3 male pole vaulters in VA5 may be a bit much and we definitely shouldn't be removing Sergey Bubka 4 who revolutionized the sport. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:44, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

as nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:44, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 03:50, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 12:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Both. J 947 ‡ ^edits 21:02, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support add, weak support remove. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:48, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Broke an world-record, is that it? Does not seem vital. The Blue Rider 16:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He is the undisputed greatest pole vaulter of all time, he has the 9 best pole vault records of all time, he hasn't lost a pole vault competition in 5 years, and he has 2 Olympic and World golds. He is also only the 11th athlete ever to win gold at the youth, junior, and senior world championships. If you don't think that's sufficient for inclusion, then you'd have to remove half of the rest of the Athletics section too. I'm honestly not sure what else he can do at this point that would convince you to list him because he's done it all already. We list 91 Athletics athletes but even if we only listed the top 50, I believe he would merit a spot. It's also worth noting that we list Yelena Isinbayeva 5 who is his female counterpart (2 Olympic golds, 3 worlds, world record holder). Should we remove her too? Aurangzebra (talk) 17:23, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

FWIW, Lavillenie seems decidedly NOT VA5 to me. _pbp 16:38, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yea, I change my mind and agree with you. If we included every athlete who had a world record at some point, we would have hundreds and that seems to be his only claim to fame. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See also my "effect of Olympics" thread below. We may need to have a larger discussion about how many world records or medals get you on _pbp 00:56, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Were Duplantis not such a massive outlier Lavillenie would stand out. J 947 ‡ ^edits 06:03, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He just set his 10th world record: [8] for anyone who thinks maybe a double digit number of world records hits the cusp but single digits don't. Aurangzebra (talk) 10:02, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Annie Edson Taylor 5

Pretty impressive for what she done, but I'm not sure if she's that vital to be listed. She just known for going over Niagara Falls, and her unfortunate life after that.

Support

49p (talk) 23:51, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. Makkool (talk) 20:27, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discussion

Effect of 2024 Olympics on VA5 sports

Armand Duplantis is being proposed to be swapped in
Katie Ledecky, Simone Biles, and several Team USA male and female basketball players already were listed
Three other names I'd suggest are Emma McKeon, Léon Marchand and Sifan Hassan. McKeon is a swimmer with a ton of medals (one of seven Olympians in any sport at least fourteen, including six golds). Marchand was the breakout hometown hero of the past games, winning four golds. Hassan has six medals, including three golds, spanning four individual distances

_pbp 19:31, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hassan yes, McKeon okay, Marchand not so sure, too early to say I think. starship .paint (RUN) 14:20, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hassan seems like an easy add, not sure about the rest but would lean a support for both. 49p (talk) 01:55, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Luc Ferry 5

No info about any kind of influence he's had over philosophy, the section he is listed as vital under. He was also Minister for Youth, National Education and Research of France for two years, but that isn't exactly a super influential position that's enough to warrent inclusion, either. I imagine most of the interwikis are from his cabinet position, and pageviews are not that high either.

Support

As nom Iostn (talk) 20:47, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Move Gilles de Rais 5 to murder (under "Miscellaneous")

Not someone who is most well-known today for his military standing

Support

As nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
definitely Aurangzebra (talk) 21:17, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Move Akira Mutō 5 to crimes against humanity (under "Miscellaneous")

This seems even more clear-cut than Gilles de Rais, since the atrocities he is responsible for seem to be the only thing making him vital.

Support

As nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 19:10, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Thierry Noir

Iconic French-born street artist, considered to be one of the forerunners of the street art movement. Known for his murals on the Berlin Wall. He seems quite vital, and all of the other street artists we list are from English-speaking countries, so inclunding him would add diversity.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:35, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Nelly 5

He's definitely popular and commercial selling, but is he really vital? It's giving the same reasons on why we removed Akon. Mid-importance on Wikiproject Hip-hop.

Support

49p (talk) 01:53, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per nom. Makkool (talk) 16:09, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. λ NegativeMP1 18:44, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Does anything that that hip-hop artists is way too over-populated? "Electronic music" gets 25 articles, "Rock and roll" only gets 20, Punk and related genres gets 26, Country gets 36 articles etc. Is there much to warrant about 50 articles for artists in hip-hop compared to others? We could cut some. 49p (talk) 01:53, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Country music does not deserve 36 artists to be listed as vital, and I'm saying this as a Texan. It is near entirely an Americentric music genre, with its popularity outside of the United States, while existent, is very small. And most of the listed artists for country were only popular before it even expanded outside of the United States, or are only popular in the United States. λ NegativeMP1 18:43, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think this makes sense. Hip hop is extremely popular, has global appeal unlike country, isn't considered a subculture/subgenre like punk, and also has an image element to it unlike electronic music where there typically are no lyrics involved and you're usually just a DJ operating on a computer (obviously there are exceptions to all of these). Rock and roll is the only odd one but that's because it specifically refers to the Chuck Berry 1950's style of rock. If we take all of rock, there are way more entries there than in hip hop. Aurangzebra (talk) 19:16, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Shireen Abu Akleh to journalists

Among the most notable journalists who have worked during the Israel-Palestine conflict, this would help reduce sysbias in that section

Support

As nom Iostn (talk) 18:21, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems important enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:02, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add New Order (band)

We have Blue Monday (New Order song) 5, but not the band linked. I feel like we probably need the band (in a case where the band isn't a one-hit wonder) with the song, or neither.

Support

Oppose

Discuss

Visual artists and musicians removal. Part 2

Remove Cardi B 5

She has released only 1 album. I like her music but I don’t think she has the trajectory to be listed yet.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I honestly thought she released at least like a couple of albums. 49p (talk) 03:10, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:09, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 19:06, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Deadmau5 5

Famous during the late 2000s/early 2010s, but not enough of a lasting influence to be vital, I would say. Some of you have expressed that our electronic musicians list is somewhat short. I am open to swapping him for someone else.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom, a topic is already open for New Order to be added so it could be "swapped" with that if no other artist is suggested. 49p (talk) 03:20, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:09, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Strong oppose. Deadmau5 is easily one of the most influential EDM musicians. The Blue Rider 00:55, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Remove Natori Shunsen 5

He doesn’t appear to be among the most significant Japanese woodblock printers, of which we already list a few.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
49p (talk) 03:20, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:09, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Francis Greenway 5

The article names several projects he worked on, but he was the architect for only a few of them, towards the end of his life. I’ve noted a considerable number of Australians who are carefully picked, and their articles are in good shape, but are not quite at the standard of vitality we are trying to establish.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
49p (talk) 03:20, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:09, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Russell Drysdale 5

Similar to the above. 9 interwikis.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
49p (talk) 03:20, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:09, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Bob Loveless 5

Knife designer. “Popularized the hollow ground drop point blade”. Just 1 interwiki.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
49p (talk) 03:20, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:09, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Lucienne Day 5

Relatively obscure British textile designer. 4 interwikis.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
49p (talk) 03:20, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:09, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 19:08, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Felipe Pinglo Alva 5

Very few page views. Even the Spanish Wikipedia has only one short article dedicated to his songs—his signature song.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
known as "father of Peruvian Musica criolla" but shows very little influence. 49p (talk) 03:20, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:09, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove F(x) (musical group) 5

I know K-Pop is huge, but we have a high number of acts from the 2010s that probably have not established vitality yet, considering how cautious we have been towards English-speaking pop stars from this period.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:15, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
49p (talk) 03:20, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 19:09, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 19:09, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Add Carlo Ginzburg

Italian historian, best known as the author of The Cheese and the Worms, which has been called "probably the most popular and widely read work of microhistory".^[1]^[2]

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:06, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

References

^ Tristano, Richard M. (1996). "Microhistory and Holy Family Parish: Some Historical Considerations". U.S. Catholic Historian. 14 (3): 26.
^ Fox-Horton, Julie (November 2015). "Review of Ginzburg, Carlo, The Cheese and the Worms: The Cosmos of a Sixteenth-Century Miller". H-Net Reviews. Retrieved May 10, 2019.

SF and fantasy writer removals

We list a lot of science fiction and fantasy writers from USA and the UK. I think we could cut some of them. I could nominate more, but let's see how these go.

Remove Jonathan Carroll 5

Not as well-known as the other ones we list: no prestigious awards like the Hugo or Nebula, or cultural significane in the shape of TV or movie adaptations.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 06:14, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
QuicoleJR (talk) 19:06, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 19:10, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 15:23, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove David Eddings 5

Author of several best-selling books, but not as vital as Terry Brooks 5 for example. The article doesn't mention any literary awards and no film adaptations.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 06:14, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Raymond E. Feist 5

Another writer of best-sellers, the other writers on the list are more vital in my opinion. No major literary awards, the Inkpot Award is handed out by the Comic-Con.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 06:14, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Piers Anthony 5

Another profilic writer, but without prestigious awards.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 06:14, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
per nom. starship .paint (RUN) 01:55, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Harry Kendall Thaw 5

"He is most notable for murdering the renowned architect Stanford White", which has been named, the "trial of the century" but that's a long list, and White is not VA5.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:49, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not important. QuicoleJR (talk) 11:38, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Sebastián Garcilaso de la Vega y Vargas 5

Lesser known explorer and conquistador. Seems to be most known as the father of Inca Garcilaso de la Vega 5.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:49, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Eugene Klein (philatelist) 5 and Walter Breen 5

How many stamp or coin collectors should we list? Six are way too many.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:49, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 02:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove André Borschberg 5

The article states he has broken a few world records, but it has been tagged for self-promotion and lacks sources.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:49, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
_pbp 02:47, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Milton A. Rothman 5

Not much claim vitality. He's a professor who founded a sci-fi convention.

Support

As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:49, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Mitt Romney 5

Seems like recentism, I think we list too many failed presidential candidates and he didn't really influence his party compared to someone like Goldwater.

Support

As nominator. Kevinishere15 (talk) 08:42, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe we are being overly inclusive of American politicians and businessmen. Mitt Romney had a lot of accomplishments, but really the reason we care about him is recency. For example, Walter Mondale was Jimmy Carters Vice President, a Senator, Minnesota Attorney General, U.S. Ambassador to Japan, and ran as the Democratic nominee against Ronald Regan in 1984. His talk page indicates that in 2021 upon his death, his was in the top 25 most viewed Wikipedia articles. His Wikipedia page is not a vital article, and I don't believe it should be. If he is not considered Vital, then Mitt Romney really shouldn't be either. If Mitt Romney IS considered vital, then the list of people who should qualify grows exponeitally.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:05, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mitt Romney is more vital than quite a few Americans listed at VA5 in fields other than politics... _pbp 00:42, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

I am of the opinion that we went too crazy with removals awhile back. Guy was governor of one state, Senator of another, a vulture capitalist and organized an Olympics _pbp 11:46, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discuss

Remove Tama Janowitz 5

Only famous for one of her books which was made into a movie, and for being part of a group with a few other writers who we list. Only one book has an article, and that book has no interwikis. This person is not vital.

Support

As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 11:53, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makkool (talk) 16:10, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Computer scientist and programmer additions

Add Dan Bricklin

The developer of Visicalc, dubbed "the father of the spreadsheet".

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 17:13, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add John Vincent Atanasoff

Credited as the inventor of the first digital computer.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 17:25, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Roger Mudd

A well-known American TV journalist. Dan Rather 5 from the same era of television is listed, and Mudd seems to be equally vital as him. Won multiple Emmy awards and the Peabody award.

Support

As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:51, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

[Tristano96-26-1] Tristano, Richard M. (1996). "Microhistory and Holy Family Parish: Some Historical Considerations". U.S. Catholic Historian. 14 (3): 26.

[2] Fox-Horton, Julie (November 2015). "Review of Ginzburg, Carlo, The Cheese and the Worms: The Cosmos of a Sixteenth-Century Miller". H-Net Reviews. Retrieved May 10, 2019.

[1]

[2]