Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement
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See also: Logged AE sanctions
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For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}.
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IntrepidContributor
[edit]This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning IntrepidContributor
[edit]- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Levivich (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:35, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- IntrepidContributor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:ARBPIA
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- Sep 7 16:55 - first revert
- Sep 7 17:41 - second revert
- User talk:IntrepidContributor#1RR - declined to self-rv
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- 24hr 3RR block on 10/15/22 [1]
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- alerted Aug 18
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
I think this account is almost certainly a sock. Compare their timecard/edit history with Wierzba (Wierzba xtools) and IsraPara2 (IsraPara2 xtools) (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Wierzba). IntrepidContributor, AFAICT, had never edited in ARBPIA in its first round of activity (7/22 - 2/23). The account was mostly inactive between 2/23 until August 17, 2024, when they started getting involved in ARBPIA for the first time. Aug 16, 2024, is when the AE against O.maximov closed with a warning (Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive338#O.maximov). IntrepidContributor has only made 30 edits since Aug 17, almost all focused on fighting the "Gaza genocide" move. O.maximov was later blocked as a sock at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Icewhiz#27 August 2024. I could go file at SPI, and this account was on my list of SPIs-to-file, but it would save a bunch of paperwork if reviewing admin could just {{Checkuser needed}} here to see if these accounts are a technical match, which I expect they will be. If you want more behavioral evidence before requesting a CU, or if you want me to file a separate SPI, let me know. Thanks, Levivich (talk) 18:35, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
I mainly edit the Russian and Ukrianian wikis...
Special:CentralAuth/IntrepidContributor says 0 edits to ruwiki or ukwiki. Perhaps they edit there with another account? Levivich (talk) 18:55, 7 September 2024 (UTC)- So if I understand correctly, AE is not well-suited for multi-party disputes, but it looks at all parties? Levivich (talk) 06:17, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- SFR:
it turns out we have multiple editors involved here that have !voted with no procedural objections in RMs opened within days after earlier RMs closing, or been part of opening such RMs
Diffs/links for this incredible claim? Levivich (talk) 14:05, 10 September 2024 (UTC)- Damn, SFR. That first RM was just about the disambiguator. It said "It is intended without prejudice against any other discussions or requested moves such as regarding changing the "Israel–Hamas war" wording." That's why the second RM was OK in that instance. Not comparable to this case. Your analysis is very similar to BM's in that you're overlooking massive differences. Can't believe this. Levivich (talk) 14:31, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- SFR, please re-ping those arbs and explain your earlier accusation was false in light of what I've written above. Levivich (talk) 14:40, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Oh no, SFR, your second example doesn't support your statement in multiple ways: it wasn't multiple editors, and anyway, in your second example, the first RM ended in "not moved" and explicitly suggested further discussion: "This close is without prejudice to opening a further discussion". You just made the same mistake twice, comparing RMs that explicitly said no prejudice to another RM. I went over this in detail on BM's talk page. You need to fix what you wrote, not double down on it. Levivich (talk) 15:10, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Damn, SFR. That first RM was just about the disambiguator. It said "It is intended without prejudice against any other discussions or requested moves such as regarding changing the "Israel–Hamas war" wording." That's why the second RM was OK in that instance. Not comparable to this case. Your analysis is very similar to BM's in that you're overlooking massive differences. Can't believe this. Levivich (talk) 14:31, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- FWIW I'm 100% going to appeal this to AN, TBANs or not. Reopening the RM was massively disruptive. I don't believe the community will decide that it was OK to launch that RM or that the right thing to do was to let it run. AE got this one wrong. Levivich (talk) 14:17, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- FWIW, separate from asking at AN whether shutting down the RM was the right thing to do, I'm also probably going to ask ARCA to take another look at the whole "1RR doesn't apply" thing again. If that's the scope of 1RR, it at least needs to be documented somewhere, because right now every 1RR talk page notice says 1RR applies to "this article" which everyone will understand means the talk page too, and WP:1RR says it's the same as 3RR, which explicitly applies on all pages. (Also it doesn't make much sense to exempt talk pages anyway.) Levivich (talk) 14:56, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @BK: never closed, just deleted. I deleted it, then Self, then SN, then Self un-deleted it after this AE, and it's since run. Surely no one will touch it now (except an admin). I have no problem with "should have been been closed instead of just deleted," if that's the procedure I'll follow it, but I have a big problem with what happened here, that it's just been allows to run. We went from non-disruptive (me shutting it down) to disruptive (it running), IMO.
- BTW could you please tell me: I suggested two masters above, and your answer about CU mentioned one of them. Is it also "unrelated" as to the other (o.max/"icewhiz")? Levivich (talk) 14:37, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks @Barkeep49, I will do so. Levivich (talk) 17:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Valereee @Starship.paint, idk if this is the one you're referring to, but the May 3 RM that ended up at "Gaza genocide" had a move review that ended Aug 22. The new RM (that brought us here) was opened Sep 7, 16 days later. Levivich (talk) 15:34, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Gee I don't know why more people don't bring AE cases. What could possibly be stopping them? 😂 Levivich (talk) 13:40, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @SFR: Battleground for Levivich? What are you talking about? Levivich (talk) 00:20, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- There is nothing uncivil in my message to BM; it was direct, but polite. What BM has been doing -- using my AE reports as an opportunity to complain about Selfstudier, which has now happened multiple times -- is the "battleground" behavior here. Levivich (talk) 01:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- @BK: it's no more intimidating than "You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you disrupt Wikipedia.". Levivich (talk) 13:14, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe it's a cultural thing but I really don't see anything uncivil or otherwise problematic about the phrase "we're going to have a problem if you don't cut the crap" (essentially what I said). I think that's substantially nicer than saying "you may be blocked" and especially saying it in bold, or leaving any template. Please keep in mind that I'm talking to someone who I've known and worked with for years. Frankly, I think I should be able to talk to my long time colleagues kind of however I want, kind of without being judged by "outsiders," meaning by people who I haven't worked with for years. If BM has a problem with me or something I said to him, he'll tell me, as I told him when I had a problem with him (this wasn't my first complaint on his talk page, hence why it's phrased as a final warning). I don't think it's an admin's place to quibble about the particular language used between long time collaborators. It's not like I dropped f-bombs or made threats of harm or something serious like that. Just because I didn't phrase something the way you would have, doesn't mean it deserves a warning. Levivich (talk) 17:09, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Seraphim: this isn't about just commenting on my AE threads. You'll notice many people have commented on my AE threads, and many of those comments have raised issues with editors other than the editors I was reporting. I only left such a message for one editor, and there's a reason for that. It's because I don't have any problem with people commenting on my AE threads, of course I know that the entire community is welcome to comment on any noticeboard threads I start, and of course I know that other editors' conduct may be examined at any given noticeboard thread (including my own conduct). That message was about one person, doing one very particular thing, multiple times, over an extended period of time. This wasn't even my first message about it, but my previous messages went unheeded, so I told him we're going to have a problem -- meaning, I'm going to report your conduct and ask for sanctions -- if he doesn't stop. I think it's frankly a good thing to warn people like this, rather than just reporting him. When I have problems with users, I almost always go straight to their talk page and tell them directly, before I seek any admin involvement. That's a good thing to do, not a bad thing. Levivich (talk) 23:31, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe it's a cultural thing but I really don't see anything uncivil or otherwise problematic about the phrase "we're going to have a problem if you don't cut the crap" (essentially what I said). I think that's substantially nicer than saying "you may be blocked" and especially saying it in bold, or leaving any template. Please keep in mind that I'm talking to someone who I've known and worked with for years. Frankly, I think I should be able to talk to my long time colleagues kind of however I want, kind of without being judged by "outsiders," meaning by people who I haven't worked with for years. If BM has a problem with me or something I said to him, he'll tell me, as I told him when I had a problem with him (this wasn't my first complaint on his talk page, hence why it's phrased as a final warning). I don't think it's an admin's place to quibble about the particular language used between long time collaborators. It's not like I dropped f-bombs or made threats of harm or something serious like that. Just because I didn't phrase something the way you would have, doesn't mean it deserves a warning. Levivich (talk) 17:09, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Valereee, sure:
- Recent history begins at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive336#Nishidani. BM and I both participated there. It was closed with "Further action related to anything here will need a separate report." Both BM and I have filed multiple separate reports since then.
- Me, Aug 5: "Please don't put me in the position of taking you to AE along with the other editor..." "The other editor" was User:3E1...
- BM, Aug 10: At the 3E1.. AE, BM nevertheless comments that Selfstudier should be warned also.
- Me: Didn't complain at that time, at least not that I remember.
- BM, Aug 16: At a different AE report I filed, BM again alleges edit warring by Self.
- Me, Aug 16, at AE: "To everyone: if you have a problem with another editor, please file your own report (at AE, ARCA, RFAR, ANI, or wherever). Don't use my report as an opportunity to bring attention to an unrelated grievance between other people."
- BM, Aug 19-27 at ARCA: BM's comments, including User:BilledMammal/ARBPIA discussion statistics, again focused on Self
- Me, Aug 29 at ARCA: "...complaints about other editors should be brought separately..."
- BM, Sep 8: At this AE report about IntrepidContributor, BM comments, again alleging misconduct by Self.
- Me, Sep 8: User talk:BilledMammal#We're going to have a problem
- Levivich (talk) 16:54, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- @SFR: Battleground for Levivich? What are you talking about? Levivich (talk) 00:20, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- Special:Diff/1244541208
Discussion concerning IntrepidContributor
[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by IntrepidContributor
[edit]As I mentioned to Levivich on my talk page, 1RR does not apply to talk pages and fixing TPO violations. The diffs provided show me reverting the improper removal of an editor's post on a talk page. Their entire complaint here seems to be more about their suspicion that I am a sock of another account. I mainly edit the Russian and Ukrianian wikis and I have never heard of those editors I am accused of being. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:44, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Selfstudier, if you didn't like WikiFouf's RM, you could have voted against it instead of deleting it. Removing the proposal is a TPO violation and a third editor doing it doesn't make it right. There was an RfC and no moratorium was agreed on page name move requests [2], so you should not be obstructing an uninvolved editor from a good faith attempt. IntrepidContributor (talk) 19:51, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49 there have been a number of editors who have objected to the page title since the last RM, and the MR that was closed a month after it. The RM discussion itself was very tight and should have been closed as no consensus, leaving the page name as Gaza genocide allegation or accusation. The MR brought up the fact that at 30 on 30, with three choices of names, the closer should have weighted it according to the similarity in two names Gaza genocide allegation or Gaza genocide accusation. But I don't think this is the right venue to arguing the case for the a new move request, and that should be left to the community. IntrepidContributor (talk) 17:21, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Selfstudier
[edit]Regardless of the 1R problem, this is straightforwardly disruptive behavior. There was a well attended recently concluded RM that in addition went through MR and nothing has changed since. Rather than specifying anything new, the presented nomination is chock full of personal opinions such as I wholeheartedly believe that "Gaza genocide" is a premature title and does more harm than good, risking the erosion of public confidence in Wikipedia for a wide swath of the population
and regurgitates everything that was already discussed in the recent RM. Yes there are editors that actively dislike the current title, that is not a sufficient reason to go through all this again.Selfstudier (talk) 18:48, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
Ample opportunity to engage was given to reported editor here and here, instead they chose to edit war and only then the matter was raised here, all within a couple hours, no-one having responded to the RM in the interim. This seems to me, in all the circumstances, to be a proper approach, BM attempt to muddy the water with irrelevant "otherstuff" argumentation notwithstanding. Selfstudier (talk) 16:16, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
I have reverted the revert by a third editor and the RM is now running. Selfstudier (talk) 02:50, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
@ScottishFinnishRadish: Not that it has anything to do with this case but seconding what Levivich says and that's not the first time you have taken out of context "otherstuff" to bolster your argument together with naming me in the process. Quite wrongly in my view. Selfstudier (talk) 14:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by TarnishedPath
[edit]Given that there was an RM which was closed on 3 July 2024, endorsed at a move review 22 August 2024 and that there have been three RMs on the article this year, the filling of another RM so soon after the last one had been endorsed by a move review by WikiFouf was disruptive. IntrepidContributor restoring it not just once, but twice, is even more disruptive regardless of whether 1RR applies to talk pages or not. TarnishedPathtalk 11:22, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
@Berchanhimez per WP:TAGTEAM: Tag teaming (sometimes also called an editorial camp or gang, factionalism, or a travelling circus) is a controversial form of meatpuppetry in which editors coordinate their actions to circumvent the normal process of consensus
.
Where's your evidence for coordinated meatpupperty? If you don't have any you need to retract your personal attacks/aspersions. TarnishedPathtalk 07:13, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
I'd like to draw admin attention to IntrepidContributor's comment at Special:Diff/1244972583, in which they engage in personal attacks and aspersion casting against every editor who has voted for a procedural close in the RM at Talk:Gaza genocide/Archive 5#Requested move 7 September 2024 by stating that they are all engaging in "POV pushing or stonewalling". TarnishedPathtalk 09:59, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
I'd further like to draw admin attention to IntrepidContributor's WP:CANVASSING of editors to Talk:Gaza genocide/Archive 5#Requested move 7 September 2024 at Special:Diff/1244837374. When I drew their attention to the fact that they'd engaged in canvassing at Special:Diff/1244979886 and that they should ping all involved editors to remedy their breach of behaviour guidelines they responded at Special:Diff/1244988992 by stating that I should remedy their breach for them. TarnishedPathtalk 12:49, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Editors constantly making personal attacks and accusations of bad behaviour without providing the slightest bit of evidence is getting rather tiring. It needs to stop. SFR floated the idea of giving short term topic bans to any editor who had done so and at this point I say go for it. Scorch the earth. TarnishedPathtalk 05:02, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
@BilledMammal if you're going to imply hypocrisy in voting in support of a RM which was opened not long after another was closed and then voting procedural close in another RM in similar circumstances you need to demonstrate that editors were aware of that. I certainly wasn't aware of the prior RM for the Israel-Hamas war article and can't be expected to have known given that my contributions to the PIA area is sporadic. What you present shows nothing unless there is something more. TarnishedPathtalk 05:37, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal, I don't think it's an absolutely wild suggestion that a lot of editors wouldn't have read each and every comment in such a large discussion. TarnishedPathtalk 05:56, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal and why would they have been more likely to read the first comment than the comments further down near where they placed their !vote? TarnishedPathtalk 06:01, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal, what you state to be general isn't universal. It's being debated because you are implying the motives of other editors and I happen to be one of those editors. TarnishedPathtalk 06:38, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal and why would they have been more likely to read the first comment than the comments further down near where they placed their !vote? TarnishedPathtalk 06:01, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by BilledMammal
[edit]First, there was a consensus against a moratorium on that page.
Second, it was recently established that involved editors shouldn't be shutting down/closing formal discussions that they disagreed with, and should instead go to an admin when the discussion is problematic. I note that one of the parties that shut down this discussion, Selfstudier, participated in that discussion, and so should have been aware of that.
Third, Selfstudier previously objected to involved closes in relation to RM's on that page. As part of that, they were warned against reverting closures, and told to go to an admin in the future.
In general, I think the editors closing this discussion, but especially Selfstudier who has been involved in these issues before and appears to be espousing a double standard, have behaved far below what we expect of editors in a contentious topic. BilledMammal (talk) 12:17, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- Given the recent comment by David A, particularly their second sentence, I want to call out the obvious POV pushing that is occurring here.
- In this AE, we have a number of editors objecting to opening an RM proposing moving the article to a less definitive title just two months after the previous was closed in favour of the title they supported.
- However, that RM was opened just a month after a previous RM was closed against moving the article to a more definitive title.
- These same editors had no objection to that RM, and some such as David A were instrumental in opening it.
- Effectively, these editors are saying that discussions that propose a change in favour of their POV are allowed, while discussions against their POV are not - and they are using tag-team unilateral involved closures and AE to try to enforce this.
- Such behaviour is a violation of half a dozen policies and I believe AE needs to act against it. BilledMammal (talk) 00:49, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @David A: Off topic, but I don’t have a position on the reliability of +972, and I don’t express one in the discussion you linked. I also don’t seek to remove all references to Al Jazeera, although I do question its reliability. BilledMammal (talk) 07:25, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- For the editors asking for an example of editors who objected to this move request, but had no objection to others opened within a similar period:
- Talk:Israel–Hamas war/Archive 34#Requested move 23 December 2023 was closed on January 4, and the close was finalized on January 10, with a consensus for "Israel-Hamas war".
- Talk:Israel–Hamas war/Archive 40#Requested move 23 January 2024, which proposed moving the article to "Israel-Gaza war" was opened 19 or 13 days later, depending on where you are counting from. Of the editors objecting to the move request under discussion here:
- Selfstudier (talk · contribs) supported a move on 23 January 2024
- David A (talk · contribs) supported a move on 31 January 2024
- Levivich (talk · contribs) supported a move on 6 February 2024, with their first comment on 24 January 2024
- TarnishedPath (talk · contribs) supported a move on 16 February 2024
- Other editors in this discussion participated in that RM, but as I haven't interpreted their comments as objecting to this move request I haven't included them in this list. There are also a large number of editors who objected to this RM on procedural grounds within the RM, but supported that RM without any objection; I also haven't considered them for this list. BilledMammal (talk) 05:23, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @TarnishedPath: The first line of the first !vote in the 23 January 2024 RM (mine, for the record) said
there was a consensus for "Israel-Hamas war" less than two weeks ago.
- Unless these editors aren't reading any of the discussion before !voting, they would have been aware.
- In addition, Selfstudier was indisputably aware of the prior discussion - they participated in an objection to the close of the 23 December 2023 RM. BilledMammal (talk) 05:50, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @TarnishedPath: They wouldn't have needed to read
each and every comment
; only the first line of the first comment. BilledMammal (talk) 05:58, 11 September 2024 (UTC)- @TarnishedPath: I'm surprised this is even being debated. In a general context, it is well established that for various reasons comments at the top of a discussion are far more likely to be read than comments at the bottom - and in a Wikipedia context editors need to go to the top of a discussion to click "edit source", not the bottom. BilledMammal (talk) 06:09, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @TarnishedPath: They wouldn't have needed to read
- @TarnishedPath: The first line of the first !vote in the 23 January 2024 RM (mine, for the record) said
- Speaking for myself, while I felt it was inappropriate, it also didn't bother me, being very minor compared to much of what we see in this topic area.
- If it had come from someone with a history of incivility I might have taken an issue with it, but up until recently I have never seen any problems with Levivich's behavior and so am happy to dismiss this as a one off. BilledMammal (talk) 00:16, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- Levivich, I'm quite confused by most of those diffs you provide.
- What is the relevance of the ARCA discussion, for example? And what is the relevance of this request? As far as I can remember, the behavior you were asking me to stop was my objections to/reverts of your involved closures of discussions at the article under discussion here, not raising issues with other involved editors?
- Regardless, you don't need to worry about me participating in your AE discussions any more. I've got a few things to wrap up and then I'm going to retire from Wikipedia, tired of the incivility, hostility, and POV pushing, and in my time remaining the only AE discussions I plan to participate in are ones I will open if the ARBCOM case does not proceed. BilledMammal (talk) 17:12, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by WikiFouf
[edit]@Selfstudier That's really a bad-faith interpretation. You don't have to agree with the reasoning, but don't pretend like I didn't detail why I think that A) the title is premature and, B) it can erode confidence in WP's neutrality. I don't cite new sources, yes, but that's the whole point : I reviewed all of the sources we do have right now and I disagree with the verdict that 'Gaza genocide' is reflective of the wording used by available reliable sources. Hence why I launched the RM, and encouraged people go through the sources table. I'm not trying to be "disruptive". WikiFouf (talk) 12:28, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Sean.hoyland
[edit]It seems likely that ongoing efforts to change the title of the Gaza Genocide (which includes less polite efforts like this) are explained in part by the attention/canvassing occurring off-wiki on social media sites etc. I don't know (or care) whether the concerns are legitimate policy-based concerns, but what also seems likely is that this attention is not dependent on the number or details of the RMs, it is dependent on the result of the RM not being the current title. Unless an RM is guaranteed to result in a change to the title that supporters of Israel find satisfactory, I'm not sure there is any point in having it. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:23, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Also, out in the real world, interest in this Gaza Genocide article formed about 1000th of a percent of what people looked at last month in English Wikipedia (amounting to over 10 billion views), so the article title issue does not appear to be an urgent or significant issue from a global statistical perspective. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:54, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Just like targeting the title of the Gaza Genocide article is not likely to stop until the correct outcome is obtained, the targeting of Selfstudier is not likely to stop until the correct outcome is obtained, in my view. I find this concerning, not because of anyone's opinions on the Israel-Palestine conflict, but because by my estimation, since the start of 2022, around 1800 of Selfstudier's edits (and probably more) are directly related to implementing/enforcing ArbCom remedies including ARBECR, notifying new users, handling edit requests and creating edit notices. So, this particular user, the topic area's top (non-sock) contributor by edit count (normally a positive thing, but apparently a negative thing in PIA), spent over 12% of their revisions on essentially policing the largely unprotected topic area. For me, it's to be expected that editors will ignore this aspect of an editor they perceive as an obstacle or opponent of some kind, but if admins ignore it the AE process starts to resemble an autoimmune disorder. Sean.hoyland (talk) 15:37, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Regarding "I think there is a strong case that Levivich should be prohibited from bringing users to AE until a case on those issues is held at ArbCom."
- I don't think this idea has any utility.
- Like it or not, Levivich is one of the topic area's countermeasures to ongoing disruptive activity. They are part of PIA's immune system.
- The statement can therefore be re-expressed as "There is a strong case to disable one of the countermeasures to ongoing disruptive activity in the topic area."
If an editor sees what they regard as disruptive behavior or policy non-compliance in the topic area they should be able to report it here at AE. ArbCom is not going to be able to solve many of the systemic problems in the topic area because the on-site effects are produced by external factors, off-site things they have little to no control over, like whether a person decides to evade a ban, or engage in/respond to canvassing efforts, or allow their personal views to take priority over policy compliance etc. And there is no obvious misalignment between Levivich's stated objectives in their reports and the objectives described by policy and existing ArbCom remedies. They have a much higher resolution view of the state of the topic area than ArbCom is likely to ever have. Sean.hoyland (talk) 06:46, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- "immense disruption on this noticeboard (and elsewhere)" - this is not what I see. I see an editor documenting what they regard as inconsistencies between actions and rules.
- "It begs the question why Levivich is bringing editors to this venue when others are not thinking to do so." - This is easily explained by friction and a number of other factors. I could bring numerous editors to AE and SPI, and yet I don't, because, for me, the cost/benefit ratio makes it too expensive. There aren't many editors willing to put in the work required to gather evidence and present a case.
Sean.hoyland (talk) 08:29, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by xDanielx
[edit]A new RM might arguably be appropriate now that the closely related RM for the parent, Palestinian genocide accusation → Palestinian genocide, was unsuccessful. In any case, if editors feel it's too hasty, they should request a speedy closure by an uninvolved party, or possibly snowball close it if there's a clear consensus that it's too hasty (which seems unlikely given the consensus against a moratorium). It's really inappropriate for two highly involved editors to simply delete a good-faith RM they don't agree with. — xDanielx T/C\R 17:10, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by David A
[edit]I do not think that Levivich or Selfstudier should receive any punishment. People who disapprove of the current page title keep forcing us to vote over and over and over regarding the same topic, with very brief breaks in-between, until they get their desired result.
It is to demand too much from Levivich and Selfstudier to expect them to know exactly where to draw the line regarding what is or is not allowed in every possible development in this regard.
Also, they are knowledgeable, constructive, and well-behaved editors. Putting them on restraining order for such a limited reason would cause longterm damage to the overall wellbeing of the pages concerning this topic. David A (talk) 19:12, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
In response to accusations by BilledMammal, there does not exist any coordination between myself and other Wikipedia members. We are merely people from different parts of this world who seem to share a humanitarian concern for the unnecessary loss of innocent lives, particularly children, and going by the United Nations recent voting records regarding the currently ongoing military actions by the government of Israel, the vast majority of the population of humanity strongly disapprove of them, so statistically speaking there should logically be a much greater shortage of people in Wikipedia who agree than those who disagree.
Also, I was referring to that this was not the first time that there have been attempts to overturn the recent page title move within a brief timespan, although going by my, possibly flawed, memory, most of them were by new editors to Wikipedia who did not have extended edit-confirmed rights to respond to the Gaza genocide talk page.
In addition, even from my, likely very limited, observations of BilledMammal's own activities here in Wikipedia, he has very actively participated in several attempts to remove all references by both Al Jazeera and +972 Magazine, which are the two main news organisations that report war crimes by the Israeli government. [3] [4] [5] [6]
Also, for the record, I have been subjected to death threats and multiple serious personal attacks from people who support the current military actions of the Israeli government. [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] David A (talk) 07:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal: Okay. My apologies for making a mistake regarding +972 Magazine, but as far as I am aware, disqualifying sources from being considered reliable by Wikipedia allows editors to systematically remove all of them from Wikipedia pages, which in the case of Al Jazeera would severely cripple the reporting from the Gaza war. David A (talk) 07:34, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
@BilledMammal: For the record, all that I recall of the renaming procedure is that the ongoing move discussion was extremely disorganised, lengthy, tiresome, and all over the place, so I assembled the three main titles suggested by other members that were not too long and awkward, and seemed to have good arguments and Wikipedia page title precedents backing them, and then put them to a vote by pinging all of the previous participants in the discussion, in order to help bring some order and structure to the chaos.
There was no deliberation involved beyond that I thought that all of the three alternatives were shorter and less awkward that the then current title for the page, nor did I expect the current title to get the most votes at the time. I do not recall voting in a preceding survey before the very lengthy sprawling discussion that eventually resulted in the current title, but if I did, I probably just voted for what I thought was the least bad available option at the time. David A (talk) 06:11, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @BilledMammal: Never mind. It seems like you are talking about a renaming discussion for another page. My adhd unfortunately strikes again. Anyway, I do not recall reading your own quoted comment there. I likely just voted for what seemed to be a less inappropriate title. David A (talk) 06:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
I agree with @Sean.hoyland: about that Levivich is a highly knowledgeable member who helps to bring order, structure, and fact-based resolutions to discussions, so getting rid of him would cause active harm to the parts of Wikipedia where he is active, and contrary to @Berchanhimez:'s claims, I think that the attempts to shut up editors who are highly concerned about human rights violations via this arbitration discussion seem considerably more prevalent and concerning. David A (talk) 07:33, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Berchanhimez: As far as I am aware, I have only made fact-based additions to Wikipedia, especially lots of reliable statistics, and do not think that I have made any disruptive behaviour via insults or bad editing. I used my wording as one that seemed neutral, given that there are some editors who are concerned about human rights violations in general, regardless of who is doing them, and others who seem to act in a more partisan manner regarding this topic.
- Absolute objectivity is not an inherent part of human nature. Some people just attempt to systematically hide their subjective traits whereas other are compulsively honest about them, the latter of which is a part of my type of autistic mental condition. However, that does not mean that I have ever made dishonest edits that I know of. I think that I have gone to extremes to attempt to word all my information article page Wikipedia edits in a matter-of-fact neutral manner, make certain that they use reliable sources, and to evaluate all of the available facts regarding this situation before reaching a conclusion. Just because I do have a moral system that says "Over 18,000 dead children and around 1 million starving people = not good", this does not remotely make me a disruptive editor, and I think that people without any such ethical concerns would be considerably more concerning, as a lack of conscience is also a form of bias, and of a far more socially destructive variety. Any viewpoint whatsoever is a bias. It is inherently unavoidable. David A (talk) 08:34, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
@Aquillion: That is correct, yes. There have apparently been recurring cases of public agitation against the work in this page, such as this Reddit thread and multiple negatively worded news articles that are listed at the top of the talk section of this page, with resulting cases of new and completely inexperienced editors causing considerable hostile disturbances. David A (talk) 02:49, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
For what little it may be worth, just a note that I also do not think that Levivich did anything remotely deserving of a warning due to his comment. It seemed like an attempt for honest but polite communication, not actual hostility. David A (talk) 19:28, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Bluethricecreamman
[edit]Will point out the obvious hypocrisy by BilledMammal for forgetting that opening an RM a week or so after move review closed with your team losing is anything other than POV-pushing in the process. Won’t argue against the fact that violating WP:TPO by deleting a discussion isn’t POV-pushing itself by the pro-Pal folks either… I saw the admins saying that ARBPIA states all rules are more especially enforced in this area, but maybe the request for ARBPIA5 could resolve such matters by putting in place much more explicit rules within ARBPIA instead of relying on the entire corpus of wikipedia policy? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 01:38, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @ScottishFinnishRadish - I'm fine with receiving a warning for battleground, apologies for targeting BM in an underhanded phrase, but looking at the list Ealdgyth has, if I have a warning for a single phrase in a paragraph, I would also like a warning for everyone else in that list Ealdgyth also quoted. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 23:06, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by berchanhimez
[edit]I'd like to say I'm surprised to see this. But I'm not. Levivich and other editors are continuing to try to weaponize AE to cover up their own bad activities in pushing their POV. While the last move review was closed as "endorse", the closer was quite clear that that was mostly a "no consensus to overturn (but not necessarily meaning there is a consensus that it was correct and proper)". The closure of the last RM "overturned" what was about a 3-to-2 majority (if not more) for a title other than the now-current one, but because of the actions of some editors (not necessarily here), the closer found a "majority" for the current title. Then editors (some here) bludgeoned the move review to prevent the actual problems with the close from being adequately discussed. And now they're mad that the community is being asked to opine again given the woefully improper close of the last move review that amounts to a supervote.
That all said, since AE has already been unable to take action on a recent report in the area because of the number of users involved and the cross-user issues (tag-teaming, POV pushing, potential off wiki coordination, etc), this report should simply be punted to ARCA as evidence in the already ongoing request for a new arbitration case. Specifically, this case should be used as evidence that Levivich (and others) are attempting to weaponize AE to remove people they disagree with from the topic area so their POV pushing cannot be questioned. Beyond that, the only short term action that should be taken is a prohibition on the most flagrantly abusive users (Levivich coming to mind as making multiple threads here recently) from making AE reports until the conclusion of the arbitration proceedings. If a user is truly problematic, Levivich should be able to trust that someone else can make a report. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 04:34, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- And just to be extremely clear, I disagree completely with Barkeep's message below that he does not consider threatening another user (BilledMammal) on their talk page to be evidence that should be considered here. Levivich is weaponizing AE, and is attempting to get "first mover advantage" by claiming that if they make a report on AE, their own behavior shouldn't be able to be looked at, because they made the report. Should not be allowed whatsoever. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 04:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- I will not retract anything, but I will clarify that "their" here was not solely intended as a third-person singular pronoun, but also to cover other editors with whom Levivich frequently tag-teams (whether intentional or not) on reporting editors. As SFR replied on BilledMammal's talk page, it's more than ripe to have the behavior of others involved brought up when evaluating a AE request, because the actions of others influence and inform the evaluation of the reported user. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 05:41, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Levivich has now taken to claiming that AE shouldn't review the whole circumstances of the situation when a report is made (in other words, that they want a first mover advantage), and claimed that they intend to "appeal" this even further because they think they should be able to own the topic area and have their views on a discussion taken as fact before adequate discussion, making involved closures/removals without repercussions. If this isn't more than enough evidence that Levivich is one of the biggest problems in this topic area on either side of the debate I'm not sure what would be. Textbook disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. I'll say again - if there are disruptive editors there are more than enough other people who can bring those editors to AE. But Levivich's participation in this topic area at this point and especially in AE regarding this topic area is no longer beneficial or constructive - and it's been that way for quite some time. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 03:34, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- To be extremely clear: I am fine if AE admins choose to punt this to arbcom in conjunction with the recent ARCA request for a new case in the Israel-Palestine conflict area. But do it already - stop giving the guise that anything can (or should) be done here if that's going to be the end result. I think there is a strong case that Levivich should be prohibited from bringing users to AE until a case on those issues is held at ArbCom. They are wasting administrator and other user time at this point. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 03:36, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- To Sean, I say that the mere fact he is reporting potentially valid disruption does not justify his immense disruption on this noticeboard (and elsewhere). There are plenty of other editors who can continue to bring editors to this noticeboard and discuss them without Levivich's participation/reporting of them. It begs the question why Levivich is bringing editors to this venue when others are not thinking to do so. The mere fact his complaints seem "facially valid" does not justify the disruption they cause, nor the dogpiling they bring. I haven't seen a single case they've brought recently that has been so urgent as to not be able to wait for the ARCA request to start a case. But what it does do is create a chilling effect for editors wishing to participate in this area. If you don't agree with Levivich (et al - those who agree with him and show up quickly to comment on these requests and discussions they start/opine in on talk pages) you risk being taken to AE in an attempt to silence you. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 06:59, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- @David A: Wikipedia isn't the place to "be concerned about human rights violations". We report facts, not what we want people to hear. Attempting to pass off disruption as okay because you think they're trying to be "right" is the exact sort of disruption that makes us violate our core content policies in this topic area. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 07:49, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by starship.paint (2)
[edit]berchanhimez has utterly misunderstood the situation in their claim that Levivich … is attempting to get "first mover advantage" by claiming that if they make a report on AE, their own behavior shouldn't be able to be looked at, because they made the report. Levivich’s position has been consistent. Less than a month ago, Levivich said: Don't use my [AE] report as an opportunity to bring attention to an unrelated grievance between other people. Please respect the time I put into this. Unless it's about me, or HaOfa, it doesn't really belong in this thread, it belongs in a new one.
Levivich did not mind his own conduct being examined in the same AE thread, he just wanted other editors to be examined in new AE threads. I look forward for berchanhimez's false claim to be retracted. starship.paint (RUN) 04:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
@Valereee: - the context was that the 12 January move, [13] [14] explicitly said: This RM is intended specifically to fix the incorrect year disambiguation as soon as possible: a clearly incorrect title shouldn't be left in effect long-term on a heavily viewed page. It is intended without prejudice against any other discussions or requested moves such as regarding changing the "Israel–Hamas war" wording.
This move was closed 20 January 2024. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Valereee: - you are correct. There is a May RM that ended in June and which move review ended in
July.starship.paint (RUN) 15:18, 10 September 2024 (UTC)- move review ended in August. My bad, thanks Levivich. starship.paint (RUN) 15:48, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by PhotogenicScientist
[edit]Apologies for the tangent, but I think this is worth clarifying while we're here: The applicability of 1RR to talk pages is not clear from current policy/Arbcom pages.
- Per policy (WP:EW), the three revert rule (and WP:1RR by extension) applies to all "pages",
including those in talk and project spaces.
- Per ArbCom ([15]), 1RR is meant broadly to address article content, and specific talk page 1RR "violations" were deemed to not be violations.
So, 2 questions:
- If ArbCom's standard applies to WP:ARBPIA, would that standard apply to all CTOP talk pages? And to all talk pages generally?
- If the above are true, should WP:3RR be amended to remove the explicit mention of Talk pages?
Thanks. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 16:08, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49 if that decision is binding, then can WP:3RR be summarily updated, on that basis? PhotogenicScientist (talk) 17:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49 that separation I (vaguely) understand. Though, the ArbCom 1RR sanction appears to be documented here, where "revert restrictions" links directly to the section with WP:1RR. And in that section, 1RR is explicitly defined as being analogous to 3RR with a few specific changes (none of which mention excepting Talk pages).
- So, can the WP:EW#Other revert rules section be modified to reflect the ArbCom decision? It's on a policy page, but that section starts off saying its material is from ArbCom. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 18:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Aquillion
[edit]Regarding the suggestions for mass topic bans - I do want to point out that the disruption in this topic area is ultimately coming from external sources and is the result of a broader conflicts outside of Wikipedia. While many editors are behaving in a subpar manner, that's not the root issue here; and despite their sniping, most of these editors are experienced enough to know and follow at least the basic outline of how we do things. I'm concerned that broad topic-bans could remove those experienced editors while leaving a bunch of new / inexperienced ones who would continue the same conflicts without the same knowledge of our policies and procedures. Obviously warnings and such are needed and people who don't improve or who are obviously part of the problem need to be removed, but topic-banning basically all the highly-active experienced users in a topic area that is seeing substantial external disruption is probably something to be avoided if possible. --Aquillion (talk) 15:57, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
[edit]Result concerning IntrepidContributor
[edit]- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I'll probably circle back to the substance of this report but from a CU perspective IntrepitContributor is technically
Unrelated to Wierzba. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:52, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- Turns out I circled back faster than I had anticipated. IntrepidContributor can you please address the substance of why you are restoring the RM, not just why it is/isn't 1RR, and why it is not disruptive. Namely, why a new move discussion is appropriate now given that the previous move review closed 17 days ago. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:33, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'm unimpressed with Intrepid's response, which has large elements of "I don't agree with the consensus so I'm going to try again and see if I can get my consensus." While I am sympathetic to the idea that the MR closed a month after the move discussion itself and that this is a developing situation,
the idea that consensus can change does not allow for the same point being brought up repeatedly over a short period of time and/or in multiple venues in an attempt to shift consensus
[16]. I also continue to have concerns, as I expressed in May with editors reverting formal discussions - such as moves or RfCs - in order to shut them down. Now that May discussion also clarifies that 1RR does not apply here but that doesn't mean that I don't find some behavior here troubling. I'll wait to see if any other admins post thoughts before stating what specific outcome I favor. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:34, 8 September 2024 (UTC)- @Levivich has the RM been closed? Or was the RM simply reverted so no one knew it was attempted? I was in favor of closing the RM which I note in the comment above. When Selfstudier decided to revert SN, I nearly procedurally closed it myself. If another uninvolved administrator is thinking about closing it, I would support them doing so. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:27, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Levivich I did not check the account against Icewhiz. You're welcome to ask for that to be done at SPI. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:50, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Levivich has the RM been closed? Or was the RM simply reverted so no one knew it was attempted? I was in favor of closing the RM which I note in the comment above. When Selfstudier decided to revert SN, I nearly procedurally closed it myself. If another uninvolved administrator is thinking about closing it, I would support them doing so. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:27, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @PhotogenicScientist I think this answers your questions (decided by ArbCom itself rather than AE so it is more binding). Barkeep49 (talk) 16:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- PhotogenicScientist, 1rr is an arbitration sanction, 3rr is a community policy. Two different things. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:03, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- PS: ArbCom can't make policy. It can only make decisions within its remit. Which includes this conflict and 1RR. So the decision to update the policy page is up to the community to include (or not). Barkeep49 (talk) 18:03, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Up to the community about updating that or not. So if you're interested I'd read WP:PGCHANGE about what that looks like. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:23, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'm unimpressed with Intrepid's response, which has large elements of "I don't agree with the consensus so I'm going to try again and see if I can get my consensus." While I am sympathetic to the idea that the MR closed a month after the move discussion itself and that this is a developing situation,
- First, I'm in agreement with Barkeep that the 1RR question is adequately addressed by Arbcom, and there is no violation here. This is very similar to a repeat of the May report specifically dealing with involved editors vetoing consensus establishing processes. In that report we issued a final warning for exactly what Levivich and Selfstudier did here, and it was clear that such involved closures were inappropriate. Although the RM didn't bring anything new to the table, this is not an uncommon situation in the topic area. Selfstudier supported a RM three days after the closure of a prior RM, and even if they disagreed with the RM procedurally, they should understand that editors often disagree about when another RM is appropriate. Gaza genocide has been through several recent RMs in close proximity so another, though not great, isn't so flagrantly out of process, e.g. started by a non-EC editor, that heavily involved editors should have stepped in. This should have been brought to AN or an uninvolved administrator, or at the absolute least brought up at the editor's talk page.With the unrelated result of CU we're looking at an extended-confirmed editor in good standing who opened a RM two months after the prior request that, while as Barkeep pointed out doesn't really bring anything new, isn't wildly malformed or procedurally flawed beyond repeating a two-month old discussion. Involved editors do not have veto power on discussions that they believe are occurring too close to another recent discussion, or any other formal process. This was already widely agreed upon at AE. That two editors who are taking part in a discussion about involvement and involved actions in this specific topic area would think that this reversion was acceptable is surprising to say the least. Additionally, simply believing that someone is a sockpuppet doesn't free us of WP:AGF, and contributions can not be reverted simply on suspicion of sockpuppetry.In my view the shutting down of a discussion started by an extended confirmed editor in good standing by two involved editors is more of an issue than starting an RM too soon after the last one. WP:SNOW or WP:AN exist for this situation. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:25, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- SFR: I'm not being glib here: are you saying that the "trout" noted in the closing summary was in actuality a final warning? Barkeep49 (talk) 20:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- Makeandtoss received a final warning for closing the rfc. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:36, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- OK. I understand now. I suggest a warning for IC and Selfstudier, and maybe even a narrow topic ban on closing/reverting formal discussions for Selfstudier. I don't see the same history for Levivich and I see attempts to use our processes so I don't see a need for a warning about the conduct in this complaint (which I do not consider this message a part of). Barkeep49 (talk) 20:49, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see a functional difference between a warning not to close discussions you're involved in and a topic ban. The result of doing it again is likely to be the same. so I think a warning is fine in that instance. A more sternly worded reminder that editors should not be closing or removing consensus establishing discussions when they are heavily involved might be in order, as well. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:26, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- That all makes sense to me. I do want to note the general warning will only carry so far - for instance I would not expect everyone in the topic area (even "regulars" at this forum) to see the message. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:43, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- To be honest, I don't think we should even have to give such a general warning/reminder, because that is covered in WP:CTOP and the alert pretty much every editor in ARBPIA has received or given.
Within contentious topics, you must edit carefully and constructively, refrain from disrupting the encyclopedia, and... comply with all applicable policies and guidelines; follow editorial and behavioural best practice
. This type of behavior shouldn't need a warning, because WP:INVOLVED and WP:TPG already cover it in detail, and editors must comply with all applicable policies and guidelines and follow best practices. Why are we making sure everyone gets a notification that they must do this if we're just going to warn for violating PAGs? So, I guess what I mean about a more sternly worded reminder is saying that this already prohibited behavior will be sanctioned if it occurs in the future. We don't need to hand out any more individual warnings for this, because everyone with a CTOP alert has already been put on notice. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:37, 9 September 2024 (UTC) - Barkeep49, do you have any appetite to topic ban (for 90 days or so?) everyone who cast broad aspersions in this report, or otherwise did not
edit carefully and constructively, refrain from disrupting the encyclopedia, and... comply with all applicable policies and guidelines; follow editorial and behavioural best practice.
? That might be enough time for an Arb case to get started, or some subs from the bench to make their way onto the committee. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:46, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- To be honest, I don't think we should even have to give such a general warning/reminder, because that is covered in WP:CTOP and the alert pretty much every editor in ARBPIA has received or given.
- That all makes sense to me. I do want to note the general warning will only carry so far - for instance I would not expect everyone in the topic area (even "regulars" at this forum) to see the message. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:43, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see a functional difference between a warning not to close discussions you're involved in and a topic ban. The result of doing it again is likely to be the same. so I think a warning is fine in that instance. A more sternly worded reminder that editors should not be closing or removing consensus establishing discussions when they are heavily involved might be in order, as well. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:26, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
- OK. I understand now. I suggest a warning for IC and Selfstudier, and maybe even a narrow topic ban on closing/reverting formal discussions for Selfstudier. I don't see the same history for Levivich and I see attempts to use our processes so I don't see a need for a warning about the conduct in this complaint (which I do not consider this message a part of). Barkeep49 (talk) 20:49, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- Makeandtoss received a final warning for closing the rfc. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:36, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- SFR: I'm not being glib here: are you saying that the "trout" noted in the closing summary was in actuality a final warning? Barkeep49 (talk) 20:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Aoidh, Cabayi, Guerillero, HJ Mitchell, Moneytrees, Primefac, Sdrqaz, ToBeFree, and Z1720: here we have another case where at first blush there is one issue to address that AE could probably handle, but it turns out we have multiple editors involved here that have !voted with no procedural objections in RMs opened within days after earlier RMs closing, or been part of opening such RMs. Editors from across the spectrum can't help but to show up and accuse each other of bad faith editing, to make bad faith accusations that everyone supporting an option in an RM are
People who apparently support Israel's current military actions
, to demand other editors not take part in AE proceedings, or claim that editor misbehavior in the RM and MR led to a POV issue with an article title. No one seems to think their aspersions or personal attacks are the same as the aspersions and personal attacks other people cast, and this shitshow happens pretty much every time we end up here for any but the most obvious behavioral issues with new or inexperienced editors. There aren't enough AE admins to be expected to take the brunt of the fallout from any significant action, if there is even consensus for anything. Can we maybe put the scoot on getting a case started? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)- TarnishedPath, I've pinged the few others from those discussions and given an only warning for canvassing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Levivich, Closed 19 January, New RM opened on the 24th, Selfstudier, David A Levivich. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- So there's also Closed 13 February, new RM 29 February, David A, BilledMammal.
- Both of those RMs had no prejudice towards another RM, as did the RM at the center of this report, which had a consensus against a moratorium. We're, again, looking at standard behavior in the topic area. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:59, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Also, if we're looking at the reasoning behind the move, that RM on 29 February was spurred by this, which is about as "there was no consensus for the name I wanted, but I disagree with the previous close" as it gets. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- SFR, I'd need to see the context for multiple editors involved here that have !voted with no procedural objections in RMs opened within days after earlier RMs closing. Valereee (talk) 14:40, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- I looked through this filing and the comments from other editors ... and I have to agree with SFR - the accusations are certainly piling up here. From a quick read ... the following statements stood out to me as being less than optimal (in fact, often completely useless) in helping to resolve issues:
- "Their entire complaint here seems to be more about their suspicion that I am a sock of another account"
- "attempt to muddy the water with irrelevant "otherstuff" argumentation"
- "People who apparently support Israel's current military actions"
- "and they are using tag-team unilateral involved closures and AE to try to enforce this"
- "That's really a bad-faith interpretation"
- "this is straightforwardly disruptive behavior"
- "obvious hypocrisy by BilledMammal for forgetting that opening an RM a week or so after move review closed with your team losing is anything other than POV-pushing in the process"
- "Levivich and other editors are continuing to try to weaponize AE to cover up their own bad activities in pushing their POV"
- "editors (some here) bludgeoned the move review to prevent the actual problems with the close from being adequately discussed"
- Note I didn't link these to specific editors because they are examples of the continual low-level sniping, accusations, and off-topic digressions that continually interfere with non-involved admins ability to get to the bottom of issues. I get it that the real world war is inflaming passions all around. But it doesn't help the issue here on wiki if we tolerate this sort of sniping/off-topic digressions/etc. Ideally, all editors would agree to dial things back, and at least try to pretend to pay lip-service to the ideals of editing here. Unfortunately, I think its gone on too long and I certainly can't say that I have any intention of opening myself up to actually taking action in this CT - because why should I expose myself as a target of this level of constant sniping? Why do folks think this is what editors should be acting like? I don't like the idea of treating everyone in this CT like a toddler who needs to be sent to time-out, but honestly - what other choices do non-involved admins have? The best way to discuss things is to not discuss what you think the motivations of other editors are, but rather to engage with sources and facts. None of the above examples do that - and frankly, until that type of editing goes away .. nothing will improve in the CT.
- As to the actual original complaint about breaking 1RR, Barkeep and SFR discussed this above. All the other stuff about possible sockpuppetry in the original complaint - that should have gone to SPI, which is the correct venue for handling possible sockpuppetry. (I note that Barkeep ruled it as the two accounts being unrelated on technical reasons) All the extraneous commentary from many other editors above ... is pretty much useless. So, we're left with - nothing. We can close this without addressing the other issues, as the one complaint that was suitable for this venue appears to have been decided as not a problem - if I'm reading the statements by Barkeep and SFR correct? While I might like to see something done about the digressions by everyone and the kitchen sink, I don't have the bandwith right now to topic ban everyone on my own admin authority nor do I care to deal with the nasty fallout I can see as likely in my future if I did such a thing. Close this and wait for the inevitable next time when we go through this same cycle again. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:04, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- There were some warnings above that Barkeep and I were roughly in consensus about, although as I asked above, do you have any appetite to topic ban (for 90 days or so?) everyone who cast broad aspersions in this report, or otherwise did not
edit carefully and constructively, refrain from disrupting the encyclopedia, and... comply with all applicable policies and guidelines; follow editorial and behavioural best practice.
? That might be enough time for an Arb case to get started, or some subs from the bench to make their way onto the committee. We can do that with a rough consensus here without having a lone admin eat the inevitable dozen hours of shit at all the appeals. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:10, 10 September 2024 (UTC)- I could get behind topic bans imposed by a consensus of admins here, although I really wish that we didn't have to treat other editors like toddlers. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:12, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- ArbCom has a procedure for temporary injunctions to handle the kind of situation described above. I am opposed to AE usurping that authority for itself. I remain open to the warning expressed above. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- No, I don't have the appetite for tbans all around. That feels punitive. Valereee (talk) 14:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @TarnishedPath, Scorch the earth usually causes a lot of collateral damage. For instance, battleground language could get caught up in it as well. Valereee (talk) 10:32, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- I could get behind topic bans imposed by a consensus of admins here, although I really wish that we didn't have to treat other editors like toddlers. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:12, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- There were some warnings above that Barkeep and I were roughly in consensus about, although as I asked above, do you have any appetite to topic ban (for 90 days or so?) everyone who cast broad aspersions in this report, or otherwise did not
- No opinion on whether this is the wrong venue for 1RR in this case, but starting a new RM that quickly simply because you disagree with the previous one is clearly disruptive, and I do think 1RR should apply here. Valereee (talk) 14:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- We could choose as AE to impose 1RR on that talk page going forward, but I don't think we can decide the previous reverts were a 1RR violation. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I get it. I missed the discussion, but I'd have said reverts on talk pages at CTs are disruptive enough, too. Not going to reopen that recent discussion. :D Valereee (talk) 15:05, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Starship, there was an RM that ended in June here that was endorsed in a move review at the end of July -- am I reading incorrectly? Valereee (talk) 15:04, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- NM, I realize you were responding to a post above, sorry! The context there was the closure itself, which actually invited another RM. Valereee (talk) 15:15, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Berchanhimez, re: It begs the question why Levivich is bringing editors to this venue when others are not thinking to do so. There's a work factor, a knowledge factor, and a risk factor that might prevent others from wanting to mess with AE. The fact someone is more willing to do it is not necessarily evidence of disruption by them. It may simply be they're the only one with both the capacity and the will. Valereee (talk) 11:06, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- We could choose as AE to impose 1RR on that talk page going forward, but I don't think we can decide the previous reverts were a 1RR violation. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- I find myself unimpressed with the behavior of several participants here. As Ealdgyth notes, the ad homimen snipes serve only to raise the temperature. Socking has been ruled out and 1RR appears to be a non-issue, which doesn't leave much that is actionable. I am opposed to TBANs at this time; it feels disproportionate to the conduct here. I would support logged warnings. The CTOP restrictions do lay out behavioral expectations, but only in the most general terms. I would make a warning explicit as to the behavior that we find to be a problem. For me, in this case, it is the venue-inappropriate sniping, but particularly the bludgeoning of a process in violation of procedural convention when the outcome is not to your liking, or alternatively the use of procedural fine points to shut down a discussion when a previous outcome was to your liking. As far as I can tell many users have engaged in this behavior, on both "sides", and it isn't acceptable in any case. That said, I want to flag a concern with my colleagues' comments above. Sometimes there isn't anything differentiating parties in a dispute, and the appropriate response is either mass sanctions or an ARBCOM referral: but sometimes a single user's behavior is very clearly actionable, because they are pushing the envelope further than any others. I don't want us to get in the habit of taking no action, or taking mass actions, simply because multiple parties have shown sub-par behavior. If we sanction one party in a dispute, the others are still free to file AE reports on each other - we are in no way obligated to deal with all the disruption at once. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- I definitely agree with the approach Vanamonde suggests in the second paragraph. Though admittedly I'm not sure who all that means would get a warning (where the 1st paragraph seems to be going). Per the
I don't want us to get in the habit of taking no action, or taking mass actions, simply because multiple parties have shown sub-par behavior. If we sanction one party in a dispute, the others are still free to file AE reports on each other
note I'd still favor logged warnings for Selfstudier and IC as an appropriate close out of this. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:53, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- I definitely agree with the approach Vanamonde suggests in the second paragraph. Though admittedly I'm not sure who all that means would get a warning (where the 1st paragraph seems to be going). Per the
- Just noting that I have closed the RM. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:53, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @ScottishFinnishRadish, Vanamonde93, Valereee, and Ealdgyth: is there any appetite for any sanction out of this report? The most concrete proposal - topic bans all around - has no support. But I do so see some consesnus that there were conduct violations here so just closing it as no action doesn't seem to reflect the consensus any better. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:02, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- Warning for starting another RM without any new reasoning shortly after the last closed. Warnings for removing the RM as an involved party, and for not discussing with the editor that stated the RM first. Warning for edit warring over the removal of the new RM. Warnings all around for battleground behavior. Lastly, a raise for us. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:27, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- I am supportive of each of those warnings. I have not made an exhaustive list of which editors raised the temperature via ad hominem commentary, but that seems to me to be deserving of a warning. I'm honestly inclined to word that last as a reminder - not logged- and apply it to all parties to this report. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:59, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- Frankly, how many times have folks here been warned for some of this? But, if that's the best we can agree on, I can support that. I really wish that warnings didn't feel totally toothless and ineffectual. Ealdgyth (talk) 22:58, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- My quick check of the log earlier this week said there hasn't been warnings about this for the people involved her I found troubling. As such I support SFR's path as well. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:42, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- No objections to warnings others think are appropriate. Valereee (talk) 12:44, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- Warning for starting another RM without any new reasoning shortly after the last closed. Warnings for removing the RM as an involved party, and for not discussing with the editor that stated the RM first. Warning for edit warring over the removal of the new RM. Warnings all around for battleground behavior. Lastly, a raise for us. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:27, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- We'll double your current salary, ScottishFinnishRadish. Other than that, I think that's a reasonable solution. Seraphimblade Talk to me 14:21, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- Just noting what David A and Aquillion are referring to above is happening currently at Talk:Zionism where multiple experienced editors, cooperating pretty well with one another, are dealing with multiple EC editors who appear to have been recruited into the article from outrage in social media and Israeli press. The article had to be full-protected for a day, and even with the talk page semi'd the disruption is ongoing from editors with thousands to tens of thousands of edits who have never edited the page before and aren't familiar with sourcing in a contentious topic. Valereee (talk) 16:36, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- So a warning for opening without any change to the status quo for WikiFouf, removing an RM when involved for Levivich and Selfstudier, edit warring for IntrepidContributor, and battleground for Berchanhimez, Bluethricecreamman, and Levivich? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:54, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
- Levivich,
Every user is expected to interact with others civilly, calmly, and in a spirit of cooperation. Do not insult, harass, or intimidate those with whom you have a disagreement. Rather, approach the matter intelligently and engage in polite discussion.
We're going to have a problem If you don't stop using my AE reports to try and get other editors in trouble., followed by a demand that someone with whom you have a disagreement stay away from a community process falls well short of expectations. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:55, 28 September 2024 (UTC)- SFR, I don't see a tersely-worded complaint on an editor's talk page as battleground. Valereee (talk) 11:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- I don't know if I would call it battleground either but I would call it an inappropriate comment as I do think it reads as intimidation. Barkeep49 (talk) 11:47, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- I went with battleground as that specifically calls out intimidation. We could just go with the ol
behavior that falls below what is expected in a contentious topic
. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:29, 29 September 2024 (UTC) - @Lev I don't know. I do read them as different. "You may be blocked" leaves some wiggle room about whether or not it happens, where as "We are going to have a problem" does not (both of course are conditional on a behavior continuing). I have a notion that this difference has mattered in some previous cases at ArbCom when an admin was in conflict with another editor. I will ponder more and (time permitting) look to see if I can find if I have recall that correct. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- I guess I'd just go with "inappropriate". It's been longstanding custom that an editor may ask someone not to comment on their user talk page (though even that has exceptions), but I know of no precedent for expecting someone not to comment on your public noticeboard postings, outside of a formal interaction ban or something like that. If you make a thread on a public noticeboard, you should expect others to make comments, and that may include people who disagree with you and people who you don't like very much. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:38, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- So a warning for opening without any change to the status quo for WikiFouf, removing an RM when involved for Levivich and Selfstudier, edit warring for IntrepidContributor, and battleground for Berchanhimez and Bluethricecreamman, and a warning for inappropriately demanding that someone not comment on their noticeboard posts for Levivich?
- There's also the question of if specific warnings like that are even needed. We could just warn all of them for behavior that falls below what is expected in a contentious topic and be done with it. I don't see a whole lot of utility in specifically wording a warning, rather than just warning specific editors to
edit carefully and constructively, refrain from disrupting the encyclopedia, and... comply with all applicable policies and guidelines; follow editorial and behavioural best practice.
ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:06, 30 September 2024 (UTC) - @Levivich, for my own understanding here and maybe others', would it be a hassle to pull the diffs of you having asked the other editor to stop doing this before? Valereee (talk) 15:40, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks. I agree with Seraphimblade that you probably can't actually stop people from using your work in ways you don't want it used. Is it inappropriate to complain to someone who has repeatedly done something you think is not cool? I mean, is it really even an inappropriate comment? Valereee (talk) 17:12, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- We're going to have a problem if you keep trying to keep people from being warned at AE.
- Is that a civil and calm request in the spirit of cooperation, as is what is required in a CTOP, or inappropriate and intimidating? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:28, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- If someone said to me "Barkeep we're going to have a problem if you keep suggesting warnings at AE" I would feel the person leaving that was not
follow[ing] editorial and behavioural best practice
. This wasn't a "stop reverting" this was more akin to "stop participating in a community process" and that ties into what spurred this complaint in the first place. But I am still hoping to have time to consider what's happened in the past. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks. I agree with Seraphimblade that you probably can't actually stop people from using your work in ways you don't want it used. Is it inappropriate to complain to someone who has repeatedly done something you think is not cool? I mean, is it really even an inappropriate comment? Valereee (talk) 17:12, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- I guess I'd just go with "inappropriate". It's been longstanding custom that an editor may ask someone not to comment on their user talk page (though even that has exceptions), but I know of no precedent for expecting someone not to comment on your public noticeboard postings, outside of a formal interaction ban or something like that. If you make a thread on a public noticeboard, you should expect others to make comments, and that may include people who disagree with you and people who you don't like very much. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:38, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- I went with battleground as that specifically calls out intimidation. We could just go with the ol
- I don't know if I would call it battleground either but I would call it an inappropriate comment as I do think it reads as intimidation. Barkeep49 (talk) 11:47, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- SFR, I don't see a tersely-worded complaint on an editor's talk page as battleground. Valereee (talk) 11:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- Levivich,
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Ecpiandy
[edit]There is no consensus for repealing the topic ban at this time, but some administrators expressed an openness to doing so in the future after there was more time editing without problems. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:51, 20 September 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by Ecpiandy[edit]I was unaware of recent Wiki rules in relation to 1RR on Palestine articles and was not actively checking my talk page; I am a long-standing good faith Wikipedia editor of more than 10 years now there won't be any more issues on articles related to this (or any) topic going forward, you can see through my historic time here I attempt to contribute to articles in a positive way. If it is possible to get a second opportunity to participate in articles relating to this topic I would be grateful; lots of the time it just for simple things like updating statistics rather than attempting to be involved in any debate. Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish (Ecpiandy appeal)[edit]I warned them for edit warring here and two days later they continued to edit war and then canvassed another editor to help them continue the edit war. Then in early August they violated their topic ban several times, which I blocked them for. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:32, 10 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 1)[edit]Statement by (involved editor 2)[edit]Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Ecpiandy[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)[edit]Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)[edit]Result of the appeal by Ecpiandy[edit]
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Colin
[edit]A consensus of administrators warns Colin against further uses of inflammatory language in this topic area. There was also a rough consensus among uninvolved administrators that there may need to be other AE requests to handle other problems raised during this discussion. Barkeep49 (talk) 20:51, 16 September 2024 (UTC) Editors in this area are reminded to assume good faith in other contributors. Amending per discussion with other involved admins. Vanamonde93 (talk) 00:44, 17 September 2024 (UTC) | ||||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||||
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Colin[edit]
Colin has severe issues regarding GENSEX topics in a UK context. Oftentimes when a source written by the British government regarding transgender topics is added, some editors will - while agreeing that the source merits inclusion in the article - nonetheless discuss its due weight and neutrality, often citing the UK govt’s record of targeted human rights abuses against trans people (as documented by the UN and the Council of Europe), as well as citing criticisms by reliable orgs against the particular source in question (the widespread MEDORG criticism of the Cass Review for instance). Colin’s response on this topic is often to come in and deliberately misrepresent anything less than total deference as a personal March 20 2024 July 2 2024 ‘You, personally, are American, so you don’t get to criticize British government sources’ along with aspersions. March 19 2024 June 4 2024 Absolute tirades against YFNS, containing pretty much everything but the kitchen sink. March 19 2024 Telling other editors to save their editorial opinions for a blog, aspersions of bigotry against the British, accusations of bad faith, accusations of editing in service of September 11 2024 Calling the use of the term “trans kids” June 22 2024 Calling everyone who shares YFNS' points April 9 2024 July 18 2024 July 4 2024 July 20 2024 Aspersions of bigotry against the British + accusations of bad faith against Hist and myself (I was saying that if someone wikilinks “Gender exploratory therapy” and it redirects to the GET section of the conversion therapy page, that’s not a bigoted edit. He considered that me making it personal for some reason? I've never been through conversion therapy) March 20 2024
Mass accusations of bad faith and bigotry against the British, aspersions of being from ( March 20 2024 April 9 2024 April 25 2024 April 21 2024 Accusations of bad faith. April 13 2024
July 23, 2024 Miscellaneous aspersions. March 20 2024July 10 2024 Personal attacks. I don't know what the best solution is. But I do know that this behavior makes it exponentially more difficult to collaborate constructively. I tried saying as much on his page on May 9th, but he quickly turned it into a discussion on our personally held views regarding transphobia in the UK which I abandoned once it was clear this wouldn't change anything.
NA
Requesting word + diff extension Edit @User:Colin YFNS uses she/they pronouns, not he/him Edit 2 For whatever it’s worth, I would like to acknowledge that my own behavior does need improvement, and it’s something that I intend to work towards. Edit 3 User:Barkeep49User:Vanamonde93 since this is proving a matter of some discussion, I’d like to note that I intended the use of single apostrophes without tq as a means of paraphrasing, not as a direct quote. Do with that info as you will.
Discussion concerning Colin[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Colin[edit]There's text in quotes and green attributed to me but that I didn't write. And it seems most times Snokalok has confused me attacking the authors of weak sources and claimed those words were directed at editors, which would be clear with careful reading in context. -- Colin°Talk 08:19, 12 September 2024 (UTC) The Cass Review was commissioned and published by NHS England. It in turn commissioned two systematic reviews by NICE and published here. Subsequently seven systematic reviews were commissioned from the York University Centre for Reviews and Disemination. Those were published here in the Archives of Disease in Childhood. These systematic reviews, which form the evidence-base for the Cass Review, have been repeatedly attacked on the basis that they are from the UK, and thus prejudged transphobic, and should be no more considered reliable than if they were published by the government of Putin's Russia: here, here and here. I have not accused any editor of xenophobia but have repeatedly complained that xenophobic comments have been made to dismiss these top tier sources. As others have noted, this happens elsewhere on Gensex topics. It seems unlikely, does it not, that this British transphobia has infected not just Dr Cass, chosen to chair an independent review as "a senior clinician with no prior involvement or fixed views in this area", but the NICE team, the eight world-class researchers at York and the editor and peer reviewers of the Archives of Disease in Childhood. This comment repeats internet disinformation that the Cass Review excluded transgender health experts. This post on YFNS talk page is in response to this post which repeats an internet conspiracy theory that the Cass Review was actually ghost-written by a secret cabal of evil gender-critical feminists in cahoots with Ron DeSantis. If only someone would tell the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges, the British Psychological Society, the Royal College of Psychiatrists, the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, the Royal College of General Practitioners, NHS England and NHS Scotland, who enthusiastically support the Cass Review and are in the process of implementing it. It seems, given some of the comments posted, I haven't been clear enough that I'm enthusiastically attacking the authors of an awful source, rather than editors. I'm more than keen to learn from the admins how I might have wiser responded to this or that post, but I don't think this venue, with its opening post of mischaracterised diffs, and quotes and green text that I didn't actually say, is a great place for that. YFNS claims I am here to provide a "knee-jerk defense of the Cass Review", and WAID notes that there's a US-politics battle to discredit the Cass Review. I'm not concerned with that battle. I'm concerned that medical matters on Wikipedia stick to the highest MEDRS sources, and don't repeat disinformation and conspiracy theories, from whatever side makes them. -- Colin°Talk 23:47, 12 September 2024 (UTC) Wrt Loki's "ridiculous and inflammatory accusation", I didn't make any of that up. It is all there in the sources YFNS cites above and in in their talk page response. The "ghostwritten" part comes from this post on my talk page by Snokalok where they describe their "side" as "This paper was put together by numerous names listed as major figures in fringe group SEGM who have expressed some wildly bigoted views on trans people in the past and have taken an active role in conservative politics, therefore it is not reliable evidence" and later refer to it as "a theoretically top MEDRS source that was ghostwritten by a fringe medical org". But they are referring to the same conspiracy theory as YFNS. There is no reliable evidence that "SEGM and Genspect were[] involved at almost every step of the process". Every step? Wrt YFNS accusation of misogynistic language, I recall YFNS told me they didn't do twitter, so may be unaware that Horton's twitter handle is "@FierceMum". Their language. I joined Wikipedia 19 years ago to edit medical articles as "someone's dad". I'm frequently reminded of the limitations of "parent" as a medical qualification. Horton is an activist, with no medical or clinical research background, whose body of research consists of interviewing their social media circle. And yet editors cite their opinion as though stronger than our systematic reviews and all the learned bodies in the UK, as though, at the very top of the MEDRS source quality pyramid, above the nine systematic reviews Cass commissioned, lies "Activist Opinion". -- Colin°Talk 09:27, 13 September 2024 (UTC) Vanamonde93 I have the greatest respect for you three admins so please take what I say in that light. Have a look at the state of the AE request when I commented more fully. I have 500 words to respond to 20 diffs from Snokalok which, as Barkeep acknowledges, are full of misquotes and characterising my words in the worst possible light. And at the bottom of the page, I have three admins making comments like "some of the diffs I've looked at concern me" and "there is a lot of poor conduct too. Unnecessarily inflammatory comments, aspersions, and the kind of generalized aspersions" and "language raises the temperature" and "need to take a look at their own behavior" and "treating it as a battleground is a problem, and us-vs-them language". Every one of these comments are undiffed, and if made by any other editor at this venue, would be met with stern warning, as Barkeep did to Licks-rocks, of "behavioral expectations (such as criticism without diffs..". Do I argue with these opinions? No, they are fair. I respond that I would be "more than keen" to have a discussion with any one of you about my tone and language, but at another venue. I was unaware that it was expected that I explicitly acknowledge my sins vs respectfully listen to what you guys have to say when you examine the diffs, which I certainly have. Of course my post to YFNS about her conspiracy theories was inappropriate in tone and language. You guys have already said as much, in a handwavy way, and I have not disputed that one bit. But Vanamonde93, I had at this point, no intention of seeking administrative action against this user, nor do I think ANI is the first step in dispute resolution or the place to resolve content disputes. If you may allow me to poke you a bit in return: I'm surprised an editor with a decade of experience thinks it is. If by "administrator attention" you believe admins are wiser than other editors, what can I say. Void is testament to the fact that a stern warning can rescue an editor from a topic ban, but there is light and day between the post I made to void and the one I made to YFNS. Did you think I can't see that and need to say it out loud like a child? If you did, I feel insulted and wonder why you think the criticisms you three have made aren't acknowledged and accepted. That simply isn't my character, which I think Barkeep, WAID and Sandy can attest to. -- Colin°Talk 19:17, 13 September 2024 (UTC) Vanamonde93, I can only repeat what I said earlier I am concerned that you think an editor of 20 years should be made to perform a little dance of contrition for everyone's amusement, in order to get a more lenient sentence. Or think this weird forum with our own little boxes to write in, and word counts that seem to have gone out the window, is a sensible place for an editor to engage meaningfully with their peers/superiors about good editing practice and improvement. If you guys think I'm a valuable editor who they'd like to work in this area, if you agree with me there are issues with quality MEDRS sources being dismissed on prejudicial grounds, that disinformation is being pushed and outrageous conspiracy theories credulously promoted, and would like an editor of my calibre to deal with that, then I already made an offer to any of you to join me somewhere else for a bit of learning and improvement. That would be a respectful response I could work with. You have other options too. If you feel this area is not a good one for my mix of strengths and weaknesses, say so as one might to a friend or colleague, and I'll heed that advice. While this particular rabbit hole has rather distracted my contributions, as a fascinating area of medical controversy, I'd be off editing elsewhere. If instead you think a logged warning is called for, and I'm not arguing it isn't a fair, if rather algorithmic, response to a review of my conduct, it will certainly be enthusiastically preventative. -- Colin°Talk 15:12, 14 September 2024 (UTC) @User:Aquillion I would like to repeat Sandy's request that I be given quotes and diffs to respond to by admins minded to give or log a warning. Barkeep, the "baseless accusations of bad faith" you mention is hard for me to deal with without specifics. I suspect there is a misunderstanding about who I'm accusing of bad faith (e.g. sources that promote disinformation and conspiracy theories). Similarly with the aspersions that SFN mentions without specific quotes. That would help me a lot. I completely get it about the tone and the temperature raising and the saying things that shouldn't have been said. Sandy's comments have been the most helpful so far and I'm committed to fixing this writing approach/style, no matter where I end up editing from now on. Finding oneself here is not easy, folks, particularly when the opening request contains claims I said things I didn't say (which remains unstruck), describes all the diffs in "the strongest possible language, in the worst possible light" and which generally "misrepresent" what occurred... and today I find an editor saying that because I have friends, who admire at least some aspect of my contributions, my head should be stuck on a spike as a warning to everyone else. Sigh. -- Colin°Talk 16:25, 15 September 2024 (UTC) Loki, as with so much of this AE, people are putting words into my mouth. "but he still said that calling children who were seeking puberty blockers for gender dysphoria ..." is not what I said. I clearly literally said "the treatment of children referred to CAMHS or GIDS-equivalent centres" and the complaint by Cass referred to "all the young people on the waiting list for services". And "referred", at the time, included self-referral, whereas now it is restricted to a referral by a clinician. Understanding this patient cohort is an significant aspect of the Cass Review, something they commissioned a systematic review to investigate. It is vital that editors on that page, and similar ones, restrain themselves to the careful terminology used in our MEDRS sources (WPATH, Cass, BMJ). -- Colin°Talk 07:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC) Vanamonde93 I'm concerned that Loki's post, which conveniently misquotes my words in the worst possible light, was made after you guys had discussed the issue of people misquoting and mischaracterising my words in the worst possible light. You can't just write this off as Colin's writing style because it extends to people treating MEDRS sources in the worst possible light, based on prejudice, disinformation and conspiracy theories they have read about in the lowest quality sources. I don't think we can say that the writing style in the Cass Review or the BMJ is to blame for editors making outrageous claims about them. At some point this is going to need examined and dealt with. -- Colin°Talk 07:49, 16 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by berchanhimez[edit]This isn't the first AE request that's been made against editors trying to follow MEDRS, and it's unlikely to be the last. There is a campaign by users for whom the ideas in the Cass Review don't support their political views, and so they are trying to get it removed from other articles (even though it's the strongest type of MEDRS - an independent systematic review) and to disparage it in its own article. Has Colin been less than ideal in his demeanor? Yes, but this is yet another example of users trying to get "first mover advantage" and remove him from this topic area so they can continue their "civil" POV pushing. The points Colin make about other editors ignoring the actual words of the document and cherrypicking sources/words to support their view are completely accurate, even if not worded ideally. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 23:39, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by SandyGeorgia[edit]
Barkeep49 and Vanamonde93 I fully get your latest posts (15:08 and 16:41) in theory, but could we examine the reality in practical terms?
All I see happening if this closes as it stands now is the same as in three cases: GENSEX continues as contentious as it has always been, Venezuelan editors left en masse, and with the exception of Ajpolino, who hangs in there, FA content production in the medical realm ended because the real issues went unaddressed, while the whole case was framed as related to drug prices, which were never the problem. And then there's the similarity in ARBMED vs GENSEX: at ARBMED, Colin's indignation over edit-warring shone through in his tone, and yet the other party's edit warring was ignored. Here, it's Colin's indignation over really poor sourcing that has led to tone concerns. Colin doesn't edit war and Colin doesn't push a POV, and yet he is to be warned while others get first-mover advantage. I don't see how this can end well. Please reassure me you've considered these factors. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:14, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by WhatamIdoing[edit]I don't think that this is helpful. The subject is difficult. There is the expected amount of POV pushing. This AE report feels to me like an effort to "win" a content dispute by banning people who disagree with you. Consider the complaint described as "Calling the use of the term “trans kids” fringe activist-language and attributing its use to American trans activism." "Trans kids" was a term I used a current discussion about whether we need WP:INTEXT attribution for a statement that "children with comorbidities did not receive adequate psychological support". "Children with comorbidities" means kids on NHS England who have been referred for gender services and who also have autism, anxiety, depression, eating disorders, and other complex needs that are not about being trans. Some editors want this statement to be labeled as merely something "The report claimed". (I disagree; I consider it a violation of MOS:CLAIM and WP:INTEXT.) This content background is necessary to understand why Colin objected to me using "trans kids" to describe these kids: "getting a referral" isn't the same as "being trans", just like "not getting a referral" isn't the same as "not being trans". I conflated the comorbid population with the trans population. We have sources saying that at the start of the multi-year Cass Review, trans advocates agreed that not every kid who was referred was actually trans, and that this shifted during the last months so that a small portion (that'd be "Fringe", right?) of the trans advocates (otherwise known as "activists", right?) started saying that every single kid who got a referral needed medical transition (e.g., puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones) and should be expected to have a lifelong trans identity.[18] Colin asked all of us to be careful and precise, which IMO is fair. However, when you pull Colin's comment out of context, or just glance over the discussion, it can be unfairly twisted to sound transphobic. Snokalok's contribution to this discussion is to say that the Cass Review is so controversial that INTEXT attribution is appropriate even when it's saying something undisputed,[19] and to say that psychological support may be a code word for conversion therapy.[20] Overall, I do feel like there are a lot of Americans (including me) involved in an article about NHS England, and I do occasionally feel like one "side" sees it in terms of American politics. There seems to be a fear that if this report isn't criticized as heavily as possible on as many grounds as possible – we even talked about whether to mention a typo in a source that was cited in the final report[21] – then bad things will happen outside of England. This is IMO just to be expected. I believe this article will be a lot easier to write in five years. In the meantime, we have to muddle through as best we can. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:07, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by LokiTheLiar[edit]As a participant in many of these discussions, and as someone who otherwise greatly respects Colin, I'm posting here mainly to say that I agree with Snokalok's complaint. Colin especially has a bad habit of casting weird nationalistic aspersions when anyone argues that the British government or media may not be a reliable source, regardless of their evidence for this. I should also point out he does this on non-MEDRS pages as well (those diffs are both from a dispute on LGB Alliance, and they're not the only two diffs like it from that discussion), so it's definitely not just "crusty vet defending MEDRS sources against those who don't understand MEDRS". Loki (talk) 05:42, 12 September 2024 (UTC) Just wanted to say that to say this
Vanamonde93, I would like to politely suggest that you're going a little beyond assuming good faith there for Colin and consequently a little below assuming good faith for everyone he's arguing with. So for instance, I'm very aware that Colin's criticism here is technically speaking making a pretty technical argument... but he still said that calling children who were seeking puberty blockers for gender dysphoria "trans kids" is I could make similar arguments for the other things you've argued are misrepresentations, but I'd go way over the word limit and frankly I think you already get my gist. Loki (talk) 01:57, 16 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by starship.paint (3)[edit]I just read the diffs above by Loki on supposed weird nationalistic aspersions by Colin, as well as some of the context. It seems that there was a discussion where five British sources were brought in to back up a certain point. The British sources, BBC, The Daily Telegraph, The Guardian, The Independent, The Times, cover a substantial spectrum of British views, and are quite well-rated on WP:RSP (though the Telegraph was temporarily downgraded to marginally on trans issues at the time of the discussion, the rest are generally reliable). Some editors responded by seemingly rejecting British sources altogether and directly comparing them to other countries such as Russia and Hungary, and that pretty much explains Colin's responses for Loki's diffs. starship.paint (RUN) 08:39, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
@ScottishFinnishRadish: - it seems that your
@LokiTheLiar: - you highlighted YNFS' source and stated that there's every reason to think they're reliable for this information, but this source literally
@Raladic: - I am quite surprised that you consider Void if removed as hounding you when they looked at your contributions to an WP:AE complaint you literally started against them. I would expect every ‘defendant’ at AE to meticulously scrutinise the AE complaint against them, this is not cause for sanctions at all. starship.paint (RUN) 01:05, 14 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by Licks-rocks[edit]I don't much like AE discussions, and I don't tune in to the discussion at issue much anymore either, but I will say that I've grown quite annoyed at Colin's attitude towards the topic. Whenever I get involved with him in a discussion, the first thing I have to do is wade through a veritable river of small and larger misrepresentations about both what his conversational partners have said, and what the sources say. He has a bad habit of assuming the worst in other editors, and thus attacking the worst possible interpretation of their position, rather than the position those editors actually hold. I and others have called him out on this several times already [23] [24]. In addition, as visible in the diffs snokalok already provided, he is consistently extremely dismissive of anything that writes negatively about the cass review, whether that be statements from WPATH, peer reviewed papers of any kind, or anything else, and will accuse other editors of bias when they argue back. Just in this last discussion he dismissively referred to a peer reviewed analysis of language used in the cass revieuw as an "activist's opinion piece" [25][26][27] and berated me for referring to it as anything else, in doing so again repeatedly insinuating that I and YFNS don't understand how peer review works. The paper in question is peer reviewed, not in the opinion section, and consists of a literature analysis. That's just not conductive to productive discussion! And yes, he did indeed berate YFNS for colloquially using the words "trans kids" in a discussion, calling it "fringe activist language", though he later walked it back a bit. This agressive, uncompromising, and accusatory attitude is extremely tiring and grinds discussions to a complete halt.--Licks-rocks (talk) 11:43, 12 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by Void if removed[edit]Colin is the sort of editor I can only aspire to be. Methodical, precise and absolutely focused on the best possible sources - and we disagree hugely on much of GENSEX, having butted heads many, many times, but always scrupulously fairly. Cass review needs more editors like this, not fewer. After being subjected to AE myself just days ago, I find it very hard to WP:AGF at this attempt to remove an editor of Colin’s calibre. This looks like an attempt to bully and "win" content disputes. I agree completely with whatamidoing’s assessment of "trans kids" - in this specific context, it is unhelpful language, and its better to stick to the Cass Review's phrasing. There is a dispute in healthcare in this area and sticking precisely to what sources say and how they say it helps navigate, even if editors don’t personally like it. The descriptions of the other diffs are disingenuous and misrepresented, eg. the "activist rage" comment is directed not at editors, but the authors of terrible sources. The "Council of Europe" responses also I think need to be seen in the context of protracted cases of WP:IDHT, with several editors on GENSEX UK topics repeatedly attempting to use a partisan political statement from a subcommittee of the Council of Europe as a trump card against UK WP:RS, even MEDRS. See this from Snokalok as part of the chain on July 20th. In the AE request against me, Raladic used it to attack another editor, and disparage the UK legal system. It comes up time and again, in all sorts of contexts, from the same handful of editors trying to use it to exclude or question WP:RS from the UK. Bringing it up again in this AE report is somewhere between WP:IDHT and WP:RGW, and if Colin is fed up with it, he isn’t alone. I'd be glad to see a page ban for any editor repeatedly flogging this dead horse.Void if removed (talk) 13:31, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist[edit]I'll preface this with I don't believe Colin should be banned from GENSEX, and I find it funny that multiple editors have called it a POV-pushing attempt to TBAN someone when nobody has said they should be TBANNED... That being said, I think a logged civility warning and/or bludgeoning restriction are probably for the best. Perhaps also a cool off block from the topic of the Cass Review, but I'd hope that can be avoided. The tirades on my talk page were particularly tiring -
Colin also threatened Snokalok with a TBAN for noting the Cass Review's FAQ on their website is hardly WP:INDEPENDENT [30] He has then accused Loki of being in "moon landing conspiracy territory" and threatened them with a TBAN for saying the Cass review is fallible.[31] Colin has been responding to any and all criticism of the Cass review by handwaving them away as "activists" and etc, repeatedly argued to exclude criticisms of the Cass Review from its article, and generally seems to be treating it like holy writ which cannot be criticized on any basis. The Cass Review is not universally well accepted by the medical community, and in fact has been quite criticized on multiple fronts (by human rights orgs and medical orgs and LGBT RS and etc). I'd like to see a warning to treat other editors civilly and not continue insisting everywhere that the Cass Review is somehow infallible. I hope this is a wake-up call for Colin, because I think he's overall a valuable contributor to GENSEX, but am frankly sick and tired of his knee-jerk defense of the Cass Review from any and all criticism and his incivility doing so. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 18:33, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Raladic[edit]I wasn't going to comment on this, but incidentally, Colin's own latest statement in the AE report here now forced me to. This repeated attacks on Dr. Horton are reaching WP:DEFAMATION levels and may actually require WP:OVERSIGHT. Dr. Horton has several years of research experience and is an expert on transgender healthcare. You're welcome to read the draft User:Raladic/Cal Horton of their experienced and published research on the topic. It also seriously puts into question if Colin is acting in good faith on following MEDRS if he himself isn't actually able to leave his emotions in check and realize that this isn't just a random "activist" as he puts it, but an expert on transgender care who has dedicated several years of their career to it. To show how systemic this repeated denigration from Colin on this has been, admins can refer to [34] and [35] where another user (who appeared to have been an SPA to advance anti-trans points and was recently TBANNED from GENSEX) tried to repeat Colins earlier defamatory comments about Dr. Horton and those were revdeleted due to the defamatory nature by another admin. One a separate note as it appears Void if removed is still hounding my edits as they are posting a diff to a comment that is not actually in the live comment that I made to another user as I reworded it a few minutes after the diff they linked, as you can see in the archived section, so the only reason they would have this diff is if they are somehow hounding my edits. I request they remove/strike their baseless accusation of me "attacking another editor" (with a diff that's not even live as I pointed out) as I simply linked to an article on Wikipedia, which summarizes the RS view, so calling what reliable sources report an attack is baseless. Since I did point out VIR may be hounding me in the original AE report and this appears to be another case to support this, may an admin advise on this? Raladic (talk) 15:50, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Aquillion[edit]While I know that a single AE case cannot solve the problems of an entire topic area, one thing I would like administrators to keep in mind is the number of responses, above, that describe Colin's behavior as something to be emulated. This report is imperfect but the diffs above still document an extented history of WP:ASPERSIONs and a willingness to approach the topic area as a WP:BATTLEGROUND - an approach some some of the comments by others above also reflect, in a way that shows how that sort of incivility metastasizes and spreads. Colin is experienced enough to know that that isn't how editors are supposed to interact with each other. When that sort of thing isn't met with some form of formal sanction, especially when coupled with a lack of contrition or any recognition that they've done something wrong, it is taken by everyone involved as permission to raise the temperature further, which is part of how the topic area has reached its current unpleasant state. If it's necessary to create reports for other people in the topic area then do it, but in terms of purely preventative measures that might help the topic area become more bearable, statements like Statement by Tryptofish[edit]I've been quietly watching this AE thread, and did not particularly want to involve myself. I want to say right off that I have long disagreed with Colin, and I'm sure that he and his friends would regard me as someone biased against him. That said, I want to strongly endorse what Aquillion has said in his statement just above. Whatever else may or may not be going on here, and whether or not anyone else has unclean hands in making accusations against Colin, those comments are important for AE admins to consider seriously. As some have already noted, in the Medicine case, ArbCom made a finding of fact about Colin: [36]. Ultimately, it doesn't mean any less because of how the Arbs voted, because it is still part of the final decision, and Colin should know about it. And look at the first diff of the three diffs listed there by the Arbs, and what he said about me, and most importantly, the way he said it. Based on that experience, here is what I said then on the case request page: [37]. I was near to quitting Wikipedia over how it made me feel (so my reluctance to comment now isn't new). And here is the evidence I provided in that case: [38]. If you go to the second heading of March 30, and the paragraph starting "But Colin then entered the discussion, saying... ", and follow the diffs there, you'll see that the issues raised in the current AE thread have been going on a long time, with Colin issued an FoF back then, and a similar attitude continuing here, with little sign of repentance. Even if he is right on the content issues, ArbCom has correctly determined that being right isn't enough, and that principle should guide AE admins now. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:35, 15 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by Graham Beards[edit]Does anyone know on which side Colin stands with regard to the trans debate? No. This is the mark of a neutral editor. All I see is a respected editor upholding our values such as writing from a neutral point of view and being true to reliable sources against a barrage of biased edits. To say that Colin should be held to a higher standard because of his solid reputation as a valued editor, is ridiculous beyond words. Colin's debating style can come across as blunt, particularly if he disagrees with you, but he never acts in bad faith and never has. Given the false accusations posted at the top of this discussion, the OP should be given a good telling off and this report closed. Contentious topics are "contentious" and we should welcome a lively debate. I don't see anything disruptive in Collin's posts; just a well-argued case for sticking to and respecting reliable sources and not cherry-picking them to push a personal agenda. Graham Beards (talk) 15:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Colin[edit]
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BumbleBeeBelle
[edit]ECR clarified with BumbleBeeBelle. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:23, 20 September 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning BumbleBeeBelle[edit]
This user does not have 500 edits, therefore can not edit any topic in the Arab-Israeli conflict area. Not only have they violated that, they have done so in a POV way.
This user should not be editing this space.
Discussion concerning BumbleBeeBelle[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by BumbleBeeBelle[edit]Statement by Vice_regent[edit]Alright thanks, I've started using that template.VR (Please ping on reply) 01:03, 18 September 2024 (UTC) Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning BumbleBeeBelle[edit]
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The Mountain of Eden
[edit]The Mountain of Eden is partially blocked for 2 weeks from Talk:2024 Lebanon pager explosions as a normal administrator action. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:28, 25 September 2024 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning The Mountain of Eden[edit]
Discussion concerning The Mountain of Eden[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by The Mountain of Eden[edit]This is a head scratcher. I'm not sure what I have done wrong. If I did anything wrong, I apologize. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 02:33, 25 September 2024 (UTC) I have tried on multiple occassions to refocus the conversation back to the topic at hand. [42] [43] The Mountain of Eden (talk) 02:44, 25 September 2024 (UTC) @Starship.paint: I did not realize that posting on the talk page required the same rigorous citing that is required in the article. The article has the needed references: Reuters says: " Statement by starship.paint[edit]Reading the entire discussion, I am seeing several unhelpful, possibly WP:BLP / WP:BDP / WP:NOTAFORUM posts by the Mountain of Eden without citing reliable sources. Insisting with no source that a nurse who was killed
Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning The Mountain of Eden[edit]
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EnfantDeLaVille
[edit]This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning EnfantDeLaVille
[edit]- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Vice regent (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 21:14, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- EnfantDeLaVille (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 4
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 10:36, April 2, 2024. Their 8th edit on wikipedia. It appears to misrepresent a source. I tried to discuss with them, but they didn't respond.
- 07:40, September 19, 2024. Removed material that had an entire section in the body under a misleading edit summary. I tried to discuss but they didn't respond.
- 14:07, September 20, 2024. Added material in wikivoice with two sources: one reliable but misleading quoted, the other apparently written by former IDF member. I tried to discuss with them on talk, and once again they didn't respond.
- 10:45, September 25, 2024. Restored material that gives Netanyahu's statements undue weight in the lead in an edit with a summary that misleadingly claims consensus. No consensus on talk page[44] for this.
- 16:05, September 27, 2024. Added "A day after Hamas' October 7 attacks on Israel, Even though it was unprovoked Hezbollah[3] joined the conflict in support of Hamas[4] by firing on northern Israeli towns and other Israeli positions." Two problems:
- "unprovoked" is quite POV (see discussion here).
- "A day after October 7" (i.e. October 8) Hezbollah didn't attack northern Israeli towns, nor do the sources say that it did. See explanation on this WP:V violation.
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 12:05, September 24, 2024 (see the system log linked to above).
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Repeatedly misrepresenting sources and POV-pushing. The April 2 edit was made before sanctions alert, yes, but no one should be misrepresenting sources like that.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [45]
Discussion concerning EnfantDeLaVille
[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by EnfantDeLaVille
[edit]Hi, sorry for the late reply. There are several users and bots who left me messages on the talk page. VR left me 5 messages on my talk page in 3 days. From the moment I started writing things related to Hezbollah, he started writing to me. It took me some time to build a picture of where he notifies me and answer them all. This whole thing felt a bit strange and even bothersome.
The events in Lebanon in recent months catch me at a sensitive time, and the suffering of my people from the situation in my homeland is unbearable. I apologize if I didn't reply in time. I tried to respond to everyone who wrote to me on talk pages. I'll try to look at my talk page more.EnfantDeLaVille (talk) 07:30, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Theleekycauldron can you explain what a logged warning is? I am sorry, yes reverting the last message from my talk page was a mistake. I guess it was bit too much in the recent days, I felt targeted the moment I started writing about Hezbollah, with people (mostly VR) massively tagging me and acting aggressively towards me. Now I see that the same editor who opened the case against me is trying to change Hezbollah's definition on Wikipedia to be a resistance group instead of militant group! that's just amazes me. Anyway, I promise to be more communicative in the future. EnfantDeLaVille (talk) 08:49, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by ABHammad
[edit]In all honesty, I don't see the issue here. Vice Regent is certainly one of our most serious regulars on the topic, but this is the second time this week they've rushed to AE about a new editor without a solid case, in what seems to be based mostly on different opinion. EnfantDeLaVille seems quite communicative on talk pages (I saw them participating in three discussions [46], [47], [48]). Maybe VR's taggings all around could be sometimes hard to follow? (this link VR shared doesn't seem to be a genuine attempt for discussion anyway [49]). I think Vice Regent should be reminded not to bite the newcomers and to take content disputes, what this complaint is really on about, on talk pages instead of AE. ABHammad (talk) 04:40, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'll also add that I find it extremely odd to see VR here speaking on POV-pushing while also changing Hezbollah's description from "paramilitary group" to "resistance group" in Wiki voice [50]. ABHammad (talk) 13:12, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Vice_regent, experienced editors, especially ARBPIA regulars like you, should know that conduct issues and content disputes are different and have their own places, and if you have disagreements with someone, you should take it to articles' talk pages. This is true especially when it comes to new editors, since this is not the first time you have bitten the newcomers recently, making others have to apologize on your behalf [51]. But now it seems even more troubling that you don't see how applying the term 'military-resistance organization' for Hezbollah, in wiki voice, in the article's first sentence is a blatant violation of NPOV, even if you found one source that uses this description (we actually have a name for this, its called Cherrypicking). ABHammad (talk) 14:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Vice regent
[edit]Note: I have slightly modified my report by pointing out that the first edit in my report is there because I believe it misrepresents a source, which I believe is a serious issue. VR (Please ping on reply) 11:46, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- And the pattern of reverting without discussions continues. Makeandtoss removed Hezbollah's terrorist designation from lead[52] and then started a discussion on the talk page[53]. I also moved it down. EnfantDeLaVille moved it back without any explanation (no edit summary) and without engaging on the talk page.VR (Please ping on reply) 14:21, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- ABHammad, "military-resistance organization" is verbatim from a scholarly source written by Dr Farida and that is published by Routledge. Additionally, I've made efforts to discuss on the talk page[54], have you? VR (Please ping on reply) 14:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Result concerning EnfantDeLaVille
[edit]- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- It looks like only two of these edits are after they were made aware of the CTOP designation. At first blush my largest concern is the lack of communication, which is absolutely necessary on Wikipedia, and even moreso in contentious topics. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:15, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
- @ScottishFinnishRadish: Despite EnfantDeLaVille's promise two days ago to engage constructively, today they've dismissively deleted a good-faith message about an edit of theirs. I'd recommend a logged warning for failing to communicate. @Vice regent: your initial filing implies that Hezbollah didn't attack Israel on October 8th, and while that's technically true in the sense that the Golan Heights is Syrian territory, it is still true that Hezbollah attacked a territory Israelis live in, so it's not like EnfantDeLaVille made that up out of whole cloth. I think an assumption of good faith would put that squarely at the level of a content dispute (along with most of the other diffs you've mentioned), not worth mentioning in an AE filing. It's the continued failure to communicate I'm more concerned about. Perhaps EnfantDeLaVille should scale back their editing if they feel that they have time to edit, but not time to respond to concerns about said editing. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 05:29, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- @EnfantDeLaVille: see Wikipedia:Contentious topics#Warnings :) no formal restrictions are imposed, but it'll be something to note if you ever end up back here or in another user-conduct setting. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 09:15, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- That's more or less where I'm at. Barring any objection in the next day or so I'll probably close it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:00, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Gonzafer001
[edit]Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
- Appealing user
- Gonzafer001 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 10:27, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- Sanction being appealed
- 36-hour block, logged at Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement log/2024#User_sanctions_(CT/A-I)
- Administrator imposing the sanction
- Theleekycauldron (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification of that administrator
- Aware :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 10:33, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by Gonzafer001
[edit]Please copy my appeal to the arbitration enforcement noticeboard or administrators' noticeboard. I was reverting constant vandalism on the Hasan Nassarala page
Statement by Theleekycauldron
[edit]Gonzafer001 made four reverts at Hassan Nasrallah in the span of less than 20 minutes, none of which were vandalism reverts (see 1 2 3 4), in violation of WP:1RR. I figured a 36-hour block would be pretty standard, but if there are other ideas, I'm all ears :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 10:33, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (involved editor 1)
[edit]Statement by (involved editor 2)
[edit]Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Gonzafer001
[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by GrabUp
[edit]They should have followed the WP:1RR rule instead of engaging in edit warring. They can also continue the discussion. Additionally, while it is true that Israel has alleged the death, it has not been confirmed by any neutral or reliable source; every reliable source is simply quoting the Israeli claim. I believe the temporary block is justified. GrabUp - Talk 10:35, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)
[edit]Result of the appeal by Gonzafer001
[edit]- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I normally go for a week pblock from the page they violated 1RR at, but a 36 hour block is also well within admin discretion. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:59, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- This appears to be moot, as the block has expired, but FTR I also don't find the edits you reverted to be vandalism. Wrongheaded, sure. POV-pushing, sure. At a BLP, it would be more defensible to revert edits that said the person had died than that they hadn't died, if there's any possible question. Valereee (talk) 16:00, 30 September 2024 (UTC)