Talk:Yasuke/Archive 9

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Thomas Lockley's First Papers

It’s been a long time. I had no intention of coming, but I saw something interesting so I brought it. I'll be back soon.

The Story of Yasuke: Nobunaga's African Retainer. 桜文論叢. 2016. 91. 89-127

It was said that Thomas Lockley's paper had been removed from Nihon University's website and could not be viewed, but some Japanese people noticed that the file remained on the server, only the link to the file had disappeared. . It seems that it could be viewed by simply rewriting the URL.
Thomas Lockley claims that this is a thesis, but half of it is an introduction to Japanese history, and the other half is Lockley's speculation and wishful thinking, with almost no academic discussion. There was a story about Naoto in a few sections above, and what he pointed out was true.

https://www.publication.law.nihon-u.ac.jp/pdf/treatise/treatise_91/all.pdf

We read primary documents and we all know that there is only one mention of Yasuke in Ietada's diary, right? Along with Nobunaga was Yasuke, and it is said that he was a large, black man.
However, Thomas Lockley claims that there are two references to Yasuke. The references state that Matsudaira Ietada was jealous of Yasuke's good treatment. Although he states that the references were taken from the Ietada Diary, he does not give any specifics, such as which page he quoted from or which day in the diary he used. This cannot be confirmed.
It states that it cites multiple other documents, but when Naoto investigated, it was reported that some of the cited documents did not include the content. If you don't want to see Naoto's text, please look it up yourself.
Naoto's writing is very aggressive, but please bear with me. I said it before, right? There are some Japanese people who are very angry about this incident. He is a typical example.

https://japanese-with-naoto.com/2024/10/02/did-black-people-own-japnese-slaves/
https://japanese-with-naoto.com/2024/10/09/did-yasuke-wield-nobunagas-sword/

It is probably easier for you than me to check the source material and how accurate the content is.
If multiple contents that are not stated in the original source are found, it would mean that Thomas Lockley's peer-reviewed paper is unreliable and Nihon University's peer review was not working properly.
What bothers me the most is that in this paper, Lockley Thomas completely ignores how to write a paper, such as not writing a page when quoting from a source, or writing a story from his own imagination. How can he teach a class at Nihon University?

By the way, someone mentioned the other day that a book by a Korean scholar examining Thomas Lockley's claims will be published soon. It will be released soon.

https://naude.eu/page-3/
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DJ2KJJ9Y Tanukisann (talk) 16:33, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

I can't comment on the quality of the 'Japanese by Naoto' articles or Thomas Lockley's earlier works, as I haven't looked into them, but I highly doubt that Alaric Naudé's self-published book would be an acceptable source here, as per WP:RS. Guinsardrhineford0079 (talk) 17:05, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

As everyone says, Alaric NAUDÉ books are self-published. No news sites have responded to this so far. Therefore, it cannot be used as is. I noticed that too when I was told. I thought it would be published by some publisher.

However, you can research the literature and enrich your articles based on the content pointed out in this book. For example, let's look at this information.

The African Samurai claims that the Shincho-kōki was printed ten years after Nobunaga's death, but that is false information.It can be seen that Hoan-Shincho-kōki corresponds to this, and Thomas Lockley cannot distinguish between them. This makes Thomas Lockley's claim even less credible. This book is based on Shincho-kōki, but it is a book for the masses, with many fictional stories added that are not in the original.

Here is a document from 1634. The name of the material is Sōkenkōbukan. Japanese:総見公武鑑

During the Edo period in Japan, encyclopedias of names of people who were subordinates of famous people such as Nobunaga and Hideyoshi were often created.

The documents contain the names of Nobunaga's direct subordinates. Not only famous vassals but also pages are listed, but Yasuke's name is not included. This confirms that Yasuke was not a samurai, or that he was a low-ranking person who did not need to be written as a document.

You may not be very interested in it, but there is the name of Ranmaru Mori, and there is also the name of Shinsuke Mōri, who defeated Yoshimoto Imagawa.

https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/1015270/1/45 To the left of this. Continues to right side of page 50.

Incidentally, the same goes for Odabukan, which starts on the left side of page 44 and continues on the right side of page 45. Japanese:織田武鑑

Yasuke's name does not appear in this document either.

These are two different documents, so there is some overlap in content.

Finally, these are included in a book published in 1939. It is housed in the Diet Library of Japan and can be viewed online. Tanukisann (talk) 12:21, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Naoto makes some errors. He says the missionaries were already banned in Yasuke´s time. I think the first anti-Christian edict was in 1587, after Yasuke´s service had ended. The sources Lockley cites might be useful. Here is a link to a book discussing Yasuke, slavery and samurai https://www.google.de/books/edition/The_Book_of_Bushido/mjUtEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=yasuke+bushido&pg=PT71&printsec=frontcover In general, I am not sure how proving that Lockley is a bad scholar effects the article. He isn’t a trained historian and his first paper isn’t very well written. Most of his theories aren’t in this article. Most of the one in this article are at least linked to the source. The servants bit is still a mystery. So really, Naoto doesn’t help us. Tinynanorobots (talk) 17:34, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you, and I don't think we should use all of the information written by Naoto or Alaric Naudé. Every piece of information has some correct and some incorrect parts. Of course, you cannot write information that cannot be used as is, but if you check the source of the information, the literature that was the source of the information may be useful. As you say, the first ban on missionaries in Japan was issued in 1987. At that time, forced conversion to Christianity and slave trade were not permitted, but individuals were allowed to convert of their own free will. Spain, which had shown its intention to invade Japan through religion, was oppressed, but the Jesuits were exempt. Tanukisann (talk) 15:43, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

• 1587

Re the Spain, it's ironic that Spain wants to invade Japan through religion despite Portugal being far more active in Japan than Spain ever was. And was discovered her first before Spain84.54.70.44 (talk) 05:13, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I got the numbers wrong. Not 9 but 5. I feel pathetic myself.

Many people criticize Lockley, but this is mainly due to two reasons. The first is that while he claims to be a researcher of history, he spreads a false history to the world that is based on his own delusions and what he wants to say. The second is that Lockley's claims are the basis for the arguments of people in the West today who make various claims, such as that Yasuke was a samurai. If Thomas Lockley had not claimed that Yasuke was a samurai, and if he had not written that hiring black slaves was popular in Japan, he would probably be living a quiet life by now. However, he would not have achieved his current status as a history expert if he had not written these things.

British David Atkinson makes the following claim.

He agreed with Thomas Lockley's claim that blacks were employed in Kyushu, and argued against those who denied that this was the case, that slaves were brought along the Silk Road. He ignores the fact that the Silk Road was no longer in use at the time.

He says that the samurai system had not yet been fully developed in Japan, so there were no samurai during the Sengoku period, and that Oda Nobunaga was a bushi, not a samurai. He says that Yasuke could not have been a samurai, so such a story is a ridiculous one told by people who are ignorant of history, and so on. He ignores the fact that the position of samurai has existed since the Heian period several hundred years ago.

It is because of people like this that the influence of the false history that has spread is so great that we cannot dispel it unless we work harder, which is why the voices of criticism continue.

Some people overseas claim that there have been black descendants in Japan since ancient times, and that all samurai are of black descent. This is also a ridiculous story. But there is even a paper on it. This has nothing to do with Thomas Lockley, but it has come up as a topic from time to time, as it must be denied. Source1 Source2 Tanukisann (talk) 17:38, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I just received a message from a kind person, so I'm writing this just in case.

Thomas Lockley himself admits that he wrote the book by prioritizing his own imagination, rather than the sources. 1

Changing the harshness of David Atkinson's comments would mean changing what he meant to say. 2

Or should I have added that David Atkins, addressing those who denied that it was fashionable to hire slaves in Kyushu, demanded that evidence be produced and was criticized by many as proof of the devil? 3 4

Should I have added that they claimed the slaves were transported along the Silk Road? 5

The theory that the ancestors of the samurai were black is confirmed to have been proposed by Alexander Francis Chamberlain of Canada in 1910 and W. E. B. DuBois of the United States in 1915. It is unclear how such a theory came about. 6

Perhaps people don't realize it. Many westerners talk about diversity and DEI, but that it is often at the expense of Asia, where the white and black communities are prioritized to do so. I personally don't want to speak or get involved in ethnic matters, but the problems that started with Yasuke and Assassin's Creed have reached that point.

I guess you want to tell me not to come again, so I'm leaving. Tanukisann (talk) 14:30, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Has tanukisann retired? What a pity. He was a valuable Japanese who used to come here.

The English version of wikipedia is now being edited by Westerners who don't know anything about the East, who feel like they know the East and create Westernized materials, and then edit articles based on what they have read and feel like they know the East.

The best example of this would be Thomas Lockley.

Some Japanese once came to me and said that Yasuke is not a samurai because he does not have a family name, but did you guys take their opinion seriously?

In the West, the family name is only an identifier, but in the East, it is very significant.

Hideyoshi wanted a high official rank, but of the surnames he had, Kinoshita was of low rank, so he could not receive a high official rank. Hashiba was self-made and has no meaning. Taira is a self-proclaimed name.

Since a family name of high status was required to receive the highest official rank, Hideyoshi adopted a person with a high status family name and received the Fujiwara family name, and was finally able to receive the highest official rank.

The surname is very important, which is why the Japanese are making the point, but did anyone, including the current Britannica article, Atkins and López-Vera, even mention it that much?

To be clear, the current Britannica article has a bad reputation among the Japanese for being false and wrong. 140.227.46.9 (talk) 02:08, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Maybe you should look up Yayōsu. The foreign born samurai without a surname. Tippytoemuppet (talk) 08:12, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I think this is veering into WP:NOTAFORUM territory. Which is to say that it is off-topic. Unless this is somehow related to a proposed change in the article, then it is off-topic. The definition of a samurai and the importance of samurai names would be relevant to the Samurai page, if you have a RS on that, please share it there. In English, the word samurai is used very generically. A lot of historians use it to refer to all Japanese warriors. Especially in books for a non-academic audience. I am sorry, I don’t have time to look up all your links. Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:43, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes I wonder.

You guys say that as far as the Naoto text is concerned, it was written by a layman and is useless. It is true that they are not peer-reviewed and cannot be used as a source of information. But not only that, you are denigrating him entirely on the grounds that he is critical of Thomas Lockley.

Alaric Naudé's own publications cannot be used directly per se, but it should be possible to check the secondary sources described in them. However, no one is willing to look at that either, on the grounds that it too is critical of Thomas Lockley.

On the other hand, they are amateurs when it comes to history, they fabricate sources, and they give credence to Thomas Lockley's imaginatively created claims with a mindset that ignores the basics of Japan and China at the time and replaces them with modern Western thinking. You guys do not even make personal attacks against him. That would be a double standard.

Now, since there is no use in just complaining, I will describe the matter that Fujita wrote about his visit to Echizen on May 14, 1581.

The Japanese version of wikipedia has more information.

[37] a b c 藤田 2005, pp. 7–8.

It is said that Yasuke was the first Negro to visit Kyoto. There is no record of another black person being brought to Kyoto after Yasuke was given to Nobunaga. Therefore, Fujita speculates that the black man who accompanied him to Echizen must have been Yasuke and describes him. Therefore, the Japanese version is described as Fujita's assertion, not as official information based on documents. 140.227.46.9 (talk) 02:49, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

I think most people just aren’t going to buy Naude's book, and double-checking the sources would probably require knowledge of Eastern languages and access to documents. I wouldn’t say that Naude's book is unusable. I will wait for a professional review before forming an opinion on that. The main thing that separates him from Lockley, is that Lockley isn’t self-published. Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:57, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I've read Alaric Naudé's books. He uses linguistics and sociolinguistics to investigate the character of Yasuke.

Although there are parts of him that are criticizing Thomas Lockley, he is only criticizing the fact that when researching Yasuke, he does not have an appropriate distance from the subject of his research, and that he makes up various theories. Alaric Naudé acknowledges the parts where Thomas Lockley did proper research. He does not deny everything.

According to Alaric Naudé, he collected materials in Japanese, which was used in Japan where Yasuke was active, Portuguese, which was used by missionaries, Chinese, which is the central language of East Asia, and Korean, which is located between China and Japan, but the best materials were in Japanese and Portuguese.

The materials in English are Westernized and are almost useless. It's only used to explain the times and world situation. In other words, as long as we collect materials in English, we will not be able to obtain proper information about Yasuke. The insistence on using English materials is probably one of the reasons why many Japanese people who read the article are not satisfied with it.

This book is a self-published work, but it uses a lot of material. There is no way that the current way of editing articles, which relies on English materials without trying to understand Japanese history and common sense, will be able to convince Japanese people who are familiar with history. 153.236.158.180 (talk) 16:23, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources used to explain the history of the slave trade in Europe and how it was not prevalent in Kyushu, Japan.

• Kollman, P. (2024). Catholic Missions and African Responses I: 1450–1800. In The Palgrave Handbook of Christianity in Africa from Apostolic Times to the Present (pp. 193-205). Cham: Springer International Publishing.
• Da Gama, V. (2009). Em nome de Deus: the journal of the first voyage of Vasco da Gama to India, 1497-1499. In Em nome de Deus: The Journal of the First Voyage of Vasco da Gama to India, 1497-1499. Brill.
• Russell, P. E. (2019). Prince Henry the Navigator. In The European Opportunity (pp. 100-129).
• Routledge. Schwaller, J. F. (2016). Manila-Acapulco Galleon Trade. The Spanish Empire: A Historical Encyclopedia [2 volumes], 95.
• Cartwright, M. (2021). Macau Portuguesa. traduzido em português por Joana Mota. World History Encyclopedia em português, 21.Subrahmanyam, S. (1993). The Portuguese Empire in Asia, 1500-1700: A Political and Economic History. Longman.
• Chan, K. S. (2008). Foreign trade, commercial policies and the political economy of the Song and Ming dynasties of China. Australian Economic History Review, 48(1), 68-90.Sakamaki, S. (1964). Ryukyu and Southeast Asia. The Journal of *Asian Studies, 23(3), 383–389. doi:10.2307/2050757
• Goodman, G. K. (1955). The Dutch Impact on Japan (1640-1853). University of Michigan.
• Fróis, L. (1585). História de Japam.
• Ramesh, S., & Ramesh, S. (2020). The Tokugawa Period (1600–1868): Isolation and Change. China's Economic Rise: Lessons from Japan’s Political Economy, 101-133.
• Naoko, I. (2013). Wei Zhiyan and the Subversion of the Sakoku. Offshore Asia: Maritime Interactions in East Asia before Steamships, 236-58.

153.236.158.180 (talk) 16:23, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Regarding Yasuke's visit to Japan. While he says this is only speculation, he admits that Lockley's Mozambique theory is more likely.

• Fróis, L. (1585). História de Japam

153.236.158.180 (talk) 16:24, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

In the West, names are given based on family ties, but in the East, names indicate status or position.

Furthermore, the source uses the explanation that the name Yasuke is a form similar to that of a low-ranking servant or a childhood name, and not the form of a samurai.

It was also pointed out that his name was not included in the list of Oda's vassals.

• 조진석. (2024). 백제의 한자 수용과 문서 행정 시기. 호서고고학, 38-62.
• 권인한. (2010). The Evolution of Ancient East Asian Writing Systems as Observed through Early Korean and Japanese Wooden Tablets. Korea Journal, 50(2), 124-157.
• 山田健三. (2013). 書記用語 「万葉仮名」 をめぐって. 人文科学論集. 文化コミュニケーション学科編, 47, 15-30.
• Miller, R. A. (1967). The Japanese Language.
• Seeley, C. (1991).A History of Writing in Japan.
• Friday, K. F. (2004). Samurai, warfare and the state in early medieval Japan. Routledge.
• 谷口, 名. (2000). 信長の親衛隊: 戦国覇者の多彩な人材 (中公新書 1453). 中央公論新社.
• 浅井玄卜. (1634). 総見公武鑑.
• 金子哲. (2003). 中世後期民衆のサムライ観: 戦国期の多様な侍と王権の姿: 戦国期の多様な侍と王権の姿. 동북아시아문화학회 국제학술대회 발표자료집, 39-44.
• Loveday, L. (2019). Onomastic Configurations within Japanese Shintoism. Onomastics between Sacred and Profane, 91.
• 신종대. (2018). 무사의 이름체계 연구: 메이지 전후, 무사의 실명 (實名) 과 통칭 (通稱) 을 중심으로: 메이지 전후, 무사의 실명 (實名) 과 통칭 (通稱) 을 중심으로. 동북아 문화연구, 54, 111-127.

153.236.158.180 (talk) 16:24, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Descriptions of various types of soldiers such as swords, spears, and bows.

Japanese is a difficult language, and there is no way Yasuke will be able to use it in a short time. A commander in command of soldiers requires advanced communication skills, which is impossible to achieve at an entry-level level.

He was not given a sword or a surname. Being given a wakizashi does not prove he was a samurai. If he had been given the position of a samurai rather than a servant, Gyuichi Ota and the Jesuits would have left records, but no such information exists.

In other words, he was probably just a servant who carried a weapon, and was not given the status of a samurai. Sources used in these descriptions.

• Conlan, Thomas (2003). Weapons and Fighting Techniques of the Samurai Warrior, 1200–1877 AD. Amber Books.
• Ota, G., Elisonas, J. S., & Lamers, J. P. (2011). Book I Ōta Izumi No Kami Composed This. And It Records The Life Of Lord Oda Danjō No Jō Nobunaga From Eiroku 11 [1568], The Year Of Earth Senior And The Dragon. In The Chronicle of Lord *Nobunaga (pp. 116-127). Brill
• Yazıcıoğlu, E. T. (1996). A Historical Analysis of Consumer Culture in Japan: Momoyama-Genroku (1573-1703) (Master's thesis, Bilkent Universitesi (Turkey)).
• Wakita Kyūbei (1585–1660), served under the famous warlord Maeda Toshinaga (前田 利長) who lived during the Azuchi-Momoyama period (1573–1600) and the early Edo period (1603–1868)
• Nelson, D. (2021). From Erstwhile Captive to Cultural Erudite: The Career of Korean-Born Samurai, Wakita Kyūbei. In The Power of the Dispersed (pp. 285-310). Brill.
• Tsang, C. R. (2020). War and Faith: Ikkō Ikki in Late Muromachi Japan (Vol. 288). BRILL.
• Inoguchi, T. (1997). The Japanese political system: Its basic continuity in historical perspective. Asian Journal of Political Science, 5(2), 65-77.
• 高橋 寛次 (2024) 弥助問題「本人は芸人のような立場」「日本人の不満は当然」 歴史学者・呉座氏に聞く（上） https://www.sankei.com/article/20240805-2RDCMCMKMNFYFOGXMRGPCIT2NI/

153.236.158.180 (talk) 16:26, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

It is pointed out that the content of the book written by Thomas Lockley is completely different from what is recorded.

Tracking the history of incorrect entries made on Wikipedia and reprinted on various sites such as Britannica. Sources used in these.

• Luis Frois, S. J. The First European Description of Japan, 1585. Routledge.
• Luis Frois, "Jesuit Annual Report" (耶蘇会の日本年報), May 19, 1581.(Original)
• Ichiko, T. (市古 貞次). (1966). Soga Monogatari (曽我物語). Iwanami Shoten.
• Kagawa, S. (香川 宣阿). (1717). Intoku Taiheiki (『陰徳太平記』)
• Matsudaira, I. (松平 家忠). (1966). Ietada Nikki (『家忠日記』). Tokyo: Daiichi Shobō. Covers his journals for 17-year interval between 1575 and August 1594
• Lockley, T., & Girard, G. (2019). African samurai: The true story of Yasuke, a legendary black warrior in feudal Japan. Hanover Square Press. p. 106-107, p. 113, p. 140

153.236.158.180 (talk) 16:27, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article cites a lot of Japanese sources. Also, the book by Lockley and Girard is not considered a reliable source according to consensus. I don't know what change you are advocating for. There is also very little about the slave trade in this article. It isn't even mentioned that Yasuke might have been a slave. Lockley's arguments are also very pro Japanese. They aren't in the article, though, so it would be off-topic to discuss them here. This page is about improving the article. Thank you for the reading suggestions. Tinynanorobots (talk) 08:56, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Pop Culture "Inspired By"

There are a couple of instances listed in the Pop Culture references where fictional black samurai are described as inspired by Yasuke. I removed these, but the removal was challenged, so I would like additional opinions. I think the sources cited are just assuming that the creators were inspired by Yasuke, but also that being inspired by Yasuke is too low a standard for being listed in the article.

- Nagoriyuki in Guilty Gear Strive citing Kotaku. The Kotaku article links to wikipedia. So this might be citeogenesis. I don't think Kotaku is reliable for this claim.

-Afro Samurai, in this case the claim is sourced to CNN, a generally reliable source. However, in a human interest story, that is probably not fact checked. Most importantly, the claim contradicts interviews with Takashi Okazaki, where he describes being inspired by hip hop culture. [1]https://web.archive.org/web/20080129091528/http://www.ugo.com/ugo/html/article/?id=16499 Tinynanorobots (talk) 08:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I think the sources cited are just assuming that the creators were inspired by Yasuke

This is original research. It is not the role of editors to assume that reliable sources were "just assuming".

The Kotaku article links to wikipedia. So this might be citeogenesis. I don't think Kotaku is reliable for this claim.

The claim in Kotaku about Nagoriyuki is made in the writer's own voice. CNN and Kotaku are both reliable sources by Wikipedia standards.

Most importantly, the claim contradicts interviews with Takashi Okazaki

This does not imply it was his only inspiration. WP:SYNTH is relevant here.

but also that being inspired by Yasuke is too low a standard for being listed in the article

Not at all, especially when these are very notable works. Symphony Regalia (talk) 22:41, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

CNN says Today, Yasuke’s legacy as the world’s first African samurai is well known in Japan, spawning everything from prize-winning children’s books to a manga series titled “Afro Samurai.” Lockley's article in Britannica also says Yasuke has increasingly become the inspiration for fictional characters in novels, plays, works of art, anime, and manga based upon his life story. These include the protagonist of Okazaki Takashi’s Afro Samurai.

I disagree with Tinytinorobots that being inspired by Yasuke is too low a standard for being listed in the article, and I agree with Symphony Regalia that being inspired by hip hop culture is not inconsistent with being inspired by Yasuke (possibly via the 1968 children's book by Kurusu and Genjirō Mita). Gitz (talk) (contribs) 11:48, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay, that settles the question regarding Afro Samurai. Although the quote from Britannica seems to imply that there are parallels between the events in Yasuke's life and that of Afro Samurai, which there isn't. (Afro Samurai takes place in the future, and the protagonist is a wandering duellist). Should the claim be attributed to Lockley?

I think the Kotaku article is not reliable and will start a thread at RSN about it. Tinynanorobots (talk) 16:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

If you say that all works with black characters are the roots of Yasuke, then that's wrong. If you name a specific work and say that it's related, then there's a chance that you're right. I think it would be good to discuss the names of the works you want to include.

As for "Kurosuke," there is no problem, since the Japanese libraries have even stated that they are involved.

As for "Kurosuke," there is no problem as both the Japanese library and the author have stated that they are involved.

https://crd.ndl.go.jp/reference/entry/index.php?id=1000239775&page=ref_view 153.235.152.98 (talk) 15:39, 9 November 2024 (UTC)