Talk:State of Palestine/Archive 20

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Edit request

This page has fringe text. In particular the early history section appears to draw pn myth uncritically.

Text to change: The Exodus from Egypt, led by Moses, is a pivotal event in Jewish history, symbolizing deliverance from slavery and the return to their ancestral homeland.

New text: (empty)

The exodus didn't happen, and thus shouldn't be presented as history.

12.75.41.36 (talk) 03:48, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Maybe, but they claim it did, thus is a pivotal moment in their history. Slatersteven (talk) 08:58, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Either way, I guess it is a misalignment issue because the primary article, The Exodus, calls it a founding myth, and this article calls it history, both using wiki-voice. This is probably not ideal. Sean.hoyland (talk) 09:14, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

So we re-word it, such as "The Exodus from Egypt, led by Moses, is a pivotal event in Jewish mythology, symbolizing deliverance from slavery and the return to their ancestral homeland.". Slatersteven (talk) 09:18, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Doug Weller's solution works for me. Sean.hoyland (talk) 09:23, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Seconded. Thanks Doug for the Gordian (k)not.Nishidani (talk) 09:35, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks folks. That editor has real CIR issues.[1]. No clue about reliable sources. Doug Weller talk 10:18, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

+1 – the pre-modern content was never relevant in the first place. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:16, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Though the lead needs fixing/aligning too now. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:18, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I suggest an edit of adding “Late Ottomam Era” as the header for the first paragraph in History. 174.247.80.69 (talk) 23:48, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 May 2024

change country to state - Palestine is not an official country. Alamanara Alababur (talk) 12:55, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

 Not done

see talk page archive. Slatersteven (talk) 12:56, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

See the article country to check your understanding of the word's meaning and usage. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:09, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

country

While the State of Palestine is factually a partially recognized country, so is China, Taiwan, Kosovo, and (the State of) Israel. Yet, the lede of none of the above articles are being written as such; they are simply "a country". I feel that the first sentence of the lede should refer to the SoP as just "a country", but a sentence further down the paragraph could include "the State's limited international recognition by just 145/193 UN member states plus the Holy See" or something like that. (?) Josethewikier (talk) 21:40, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

that is to say I request to merge the 4th paragraph of the lede into the 1st is what could work. Josethewikier (talk) 21:42, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Typo in 5th sentence

Invaison should be invasion. The Nookster (talk) 17:10, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. Slatersteven (talk) 17:13, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Updating lede sentence

As with Kosovo, the lede sentence should match in that "Palestine is a country ... with partial diplomatic recognition" as opposed to "Palestine is a partially recognized country ...". See Kosovo Etsaloto (talk) 23:07, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I second this. The sentence structure "...is a partially recognized country" implies or stresses that less than half of the countries in the world recognise Palestine, when this is far from the case (MW defines "partially" as "to some extent; in some degree"). If Taiwan (recognised by just around a dozen countries) is simply described as a "country" in the lede in its article, with its political status only mentioned at length several paragraphs down, why can't this be done for Palestine, whose diplomatic recognition is far more widespread? Yekshemesh (talk) 02:19, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 1 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Speedy close. Speedy close per SilverLocust and others. (non-admin closure) Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 02:26, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

---

State of Palestine → Palestine – WP:COMMONNAME, and because this is what is done for almost every other state on Earth, such as the Federal Republic of Germany, the Republic of China, the People’s Republic of China, the United Mexican States, and the State of Israel. MountainDew20 (talk) 02:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Furthermore, Palestine will have to be moved to Palestine (disambiguation). MountainDew20 (talk) 02:55, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Agree. State of Palestine according to pageviews.wmcloud.com is visited way more than the region and all the other things in the disambig page combined. 48JCLTALK 16:25, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: This was last discussed 4–6 weeks ago in Talk:State of Palestine/Archive 19#Requested move 18 April 2024, which was closed on 29 April as not moved (i.e., consensus not to move). SilverLocust 💬 03:16, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

@SilverLocust: Please close this RM per above. Selfstudier (talk) 08:11, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Closure requests shouldn't be directed at a particular user, but other editors can take your comment as a "• Speedy close per SilverLocust". Personally, I wait for some comments before closing a repeat request as WP:SNOW, and I generally don't close an RM after making even a neutral comment. SilverLocust 💬 08:33, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake, I mixed you up with @MountainDew20: Selfstudier (talk) 08:41, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Procedural close Per above comments, this is just a waste of editor time. Selfstudier (talk) 08:40, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Yep, discussed closed and now asked again. Close this. Slatersteven (talk) 16:27, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

• Speedy close per SilverLocust. --Aldij (talk) 16:18, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Comma splice

Im new so i might be making a mistake (sorry if i do)

"Currently, the biggest challenges to the country include the Israeli occupation, partial blockade, restrictions on movement, Israeli settlements and settler violence, as well as an overall poor security situation."

In this sentence I think there is a comma splice. "and settler violence, as well as an overall poor security situation." Here you say "and" but also put a comma before "as well" as shown "settler violence, as well". I suggest to edit it and make it either a semi-colon or make it a new sentence. Just noticed it and thought I'd let yall know.

Thanks. Onm21 (talk) 17:21, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done Much appreciated, but as well as an overall poor security situation isn't an independent clause, so this isn't a comma splice. Remsense诉 18:04, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 June 2024

"the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, collectively known as the Palestinian territories — within the larger region of Palestine" this is a technical and geographical inaccuracy. the 2 palestinian states (governed by different governments) are within the region of Israel. Regardless of the political opinion, this is geographically inaccurate and may be misleading. Maleuser999 (talk) 15:00, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done – incorrect, see Palestine (region). Remsense诉 15:01, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated/potentially inaccurate sentence in main summary section

The final paragraph in the introduction summary section contains a sentence which reads: "Despite these challenges, the country remains one of the most highly-educated countries in the Arab world." I am unsure by what metric this is measured, as the Wikipedia article on education in the Arab world places Palestine around the middle of the pack as well as low internationally.

Perhaps it is my misunderstanding but please review and take the action you deem necessary. 76.244.42.200 (talk) 07:41, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Education in the Arab World is poorly sourced, and the table presented there is completely unsourced (we aren't even told what parameter the ranking refers too). That said, I agree that the claim here is also unsourced and a knowledgeable editor should look into it. — kashmīrī ^TALK 08:09, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Treating your comment as an edit request to remove the relevant material on the basis that is is unsourced, I have done so. It's not in the education section or elsewhere in the article body that I can see. Selfstudier (talk) 11:13, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm glad action was taken, however now I have a different concern about the same section. There are two back-to-back sentences in the exact same place that contain grammatical errors.

"Unsolved remain the question of Palestine's borders..." – should be "remains" instead of "remain"

"Despite these challenges, the country, maintains an emerging economy, and sees frequent tourism." – need to remove extraneous commas. Should be corrected to "Despite these challenges, the country maintains an emerging economy and sees frequent tourism." 76.244.42.200 (talk) 00:30, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and made those fixes. Thank you for pointing them out - Antandrus (talk) 01:36, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Revert

This revert edit wars in the term "Proclaimed capital" in the infobox. The infoboxes for Israel and Palestine in this respect should be identical (as are their leads) as neither claim is recognized and whether Israel occupies Jerusalem has absolutely nothing whatever to do with it. Selfstudier (talk) 20:37, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 July 2024

In the "Capital" section of the Infobox, instead of saying "Jerusalem" say "East Jerusalem" as the Palestinian Liberation Organisation claims only East Jerusalem as its capital not the whole of Jerusalem. Zakary2012 (talk) 05:15, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. GrayStorm^{(Complaints Dept.|My Contribs.)} 05:40, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Lede

@Astropulse: WP:LEDE is a summary of the body and is not supposed to have any details in it. The burden to achieve consensus is on the inserter of the material per WP:ONUS, not on its remover. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:59, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Astropulse: I have reverted your revert while we discuss. Please explain your revert further, for example, the restoration of In 1917, Britain called for a Jewish nation to be created, which is actually false. Selfstudier (talk) 10:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/conflict-Palestine

it says "In 1917, in order to win Jewish support for Britain's First World War effort, the British Balfour Declaration promised the establishment of a Jewish national home in Ottoman-controlled Palestine."

National Army Museum is the British Army's central museum.

How is this false? Its already in the reference Astropulse (talk) 18:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Jewish national home is not equal to a Jewish nation. That you are not aware of this and all the arguments around it, is disturbing. Selfstudier (talk) 18:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I see. right now, i think the flow of information is not great and it was severely shortened by @Makeandtoss People should have some more context Astropulse (talk) 21:47, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Selfstudiercan you confirm your reasoning behind recent revert and why you like the current version instead of version july 12 before changes by Makeandtoss Astropulse (talk) 15:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

See my comment above. Selfstudier (talk) 15:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 July 2024

Please change For other uses of Palestine, see Palestine to For other uses of Palestine, see Palestine (disambiguation) @PadFoot2008. It currently has a link that links to the article itself after the recent moves. AG202 (talk) 15:25, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Done. Selfstudier (talk) 15:35, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Recognition recent and historical

Why does the article lack mention of recent Norway/Ireland/Spain recognition and earlier ones by other nations ? Why is the Nakba only mentioned and not at all described ? Why are Jews occupying Palestine not listed as resident ? — ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht ^Talk/_Stalk 15:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 July 2024

Palestine is not a 'country' , it is merely a state. It is not recognized as a country by the UN, although this entry says that it is recognized as a country in this Wikipedia page. If it were a country it would be the 194th. Here is a list of countries recognized by the UN:

Source:

Here is the history:

No where here (UN page) is Palestine listed as a state:

Even Arab news source AlJazeera does not list Palestine as a 'country' :

Source:

"Yet the U.S. alone has consistently blocked the Palestinian territories from being fully recognized as a country – at least symbolically – by preventing them from becoming the 194th member state of the United Nations. Palestine does have the status of being a permanent observer at the U.N. , where it is represented by the Palestinian Authority. Being a permanent observer lets Palestine attend most meetings, but it cannot vote on any international agreements or recommendations." Charlotte240 (talk) 22:09, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — kashmīrī ^TALK 22:31, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 July 2024

change country to territory. 130.132.173.12 (talk) 21:17, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Remsense诉 21:22, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — kashmīrī ^TALK 23:05, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Non-extendedconfirmed users are excluded from the consensus forming process. It's therefore not possible for them to establish a consensus for a change before or after submitting an edit request. So, I assume Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} responses are not applicable to non-extendedconfirmed users. Sean.hoyland (talk) 04:31, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 August 2024

There is no state of Palestine. This page is propaganda and not accurate. All references to Palestine as a State or Country should be removed. There are no official borders, no government, no economy and completely dependent on others for security, food, water and energy. This is not a country or a state. Why would they be working towards recognition of a state or country if it already existed? 2601:140:8D01:2890:2998:72D2:7089:71E0 (talk) 18:47, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia bases content on published reliable sources. And as discussed in this article, and in more detail in Legal status of the State of Palestine and International recognition of the State of Palestine the consensus amongst such sources is that the international recognition it has received (e.g. as an observer state of the United Nations General Assembly etc) qualifies it as a state. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:56, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Lede

The Mandate for Palestine brought significant changes to the political and social landscape of the area, setting the stage for the conflicts and struggles that would follow. @Makeandtoss Astropulse (talk) 01:45, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

It is quite editorial. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:44, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Is that in the article? Anyway, it is true enough, I suppose, as far as it goes tho the issues predate the Mandate, eg Balfour, Zionism and there were conflicts and struggle during the Mandate too. So yeah, a bit editorial/simplistic. Selfstudier (talk) 10:20, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

what if we add just `setting the stage for the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict.` Astropulse (talk) 02:32, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

The Mandate.. which incorporated the text of the Balfour Declaration, set the stage....(https://www.un.org/unispal/history2/origins-and-evolution-of-the-palestine-problem/part-i-1917-1947/) Selfstudier (talk) 09:07, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Largest city - needs to be fixed

The infobox says the largest city in the country is Gaza City, but it is actually East Jerusalem, with 595,000 inhabitants according to the article on it, so that needs to be corrected in the infobox. 2A00:A041:3B9A:AC00:88A6:4340:9DD0:6D05 (talk) 14:58, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

where in the article does it say that? Slatersteven (talk) 15:07, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

The lead, I believe. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 22:02, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Lede problems

@Kharbaan Ghaltaan: Problems with the new lede:

1- opening paragraph should not detail religion and ethnicities, nor should the lede.

2- Too many mention of "conquests," it should just be said that this ruled after this, etc.

3- The modern Palestinian state (which doesn't exist beyond the PA, which can be described to have municipal powers at best) does not yet exist; and certainly does not exist in 1948.

4- (Christian and Muslims) is redundant

5- "rejected by the Arabs." should be replaced with "the plan was never implemented."

6- Calling the Fatah-Hamas conflict a "civil war" is an overstretch. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:00, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Regarding 1st point, look at Iraq, Lebanon and Syria, they're too like that. Because Palestine, along with these countries are similar, since they're located in the Fertile Crescent. I didn't understand the 3rd point. Pls explain or tell me what kind of sentence will be suitable. Pls don't ignore it and reply as possible Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 20:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

They should be change as well since MOS:OPEN says the opening paragraph should be kept as general as possible.

There is no Palestinian state on the ground, but a Palestinian Authority. There are recognitions of the existence of the right for such a state, but that is not a state on the ground. Also PA was established in 1993. Prior to that there was no Palestinian body in the occupied territories. This sentence can just be removed "The modern Palestinian state have been in conflict since 1948, which was triggered during the British rule." Makeandtoss (talk) 20:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Looks actually good now. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:13, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

History

@Slatersteven why there's no early history section? at least a brief about non-arab/muslim history and a detailed paragraph about Muslim/Arab history of the region of Palestine?? Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 09:42, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

There is no "real history" of the state of Palestine, its is a modern invention, There may be a justification for a brief one of two lines run down and a link to Palestine (region). Slatersteven (talk) 09:47, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Herodotus would disagree. In The Histories Herodotus mentions Palestinians and Palestine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.87.143.164 (talk) 10:23, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Do RS say that they are the same entities? Slatersteven (talk) 10:28, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

As if the "secular" state of Israel is an ancient invention. All modern-nation states are modern inventions; there should definitely be a history section related to the history of the Palestinian territories. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:14, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, which is why many such articles do not have huge ancient history section. Slatersteven (talk) 10:30, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Israel does have a large ancient history section, so large that is obscures the 3,000 modern history of the Palestine region also now known as the territory of the Israeli state. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:47, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

And two wrongs do not make a right (see below). Slatersteven (talk) 10:48, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I did not claim that; that's why I have been promoting the discussion of the history of the Palestinian territories here, and the history of the Palestine region at Israel. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:49, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

The way IP history is dealt with is POV driven, I suspect. There is a History of Palestine article (which says at top "This article is about the history of the region. For the state, see History of the State of Palestine), so then there is History of Israel (which says at top "the history of the State of Israel and its historical background. For pre-modern Jewish history in the region, see History of the Jews and Judaism in the Land of Israel). So there is an article about Israel with a very large History in it and now we have a Palestine article (redirects here) and so we must have a very large history in that as well. And so on. The "top" articles should be the History of.. and summary style implemented elsewhere, methinks. No? (History of the Jews and Judaism in the Land of Israel and History of ancient Israel and Judah...hmmm) Selfstudier (talk) 10:39, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Reading your comment I came up with an idea that I do not fully support yet but I think is interesting (thinking out loud). Maybe the best solution to this unique issue is that any history of State of Palestine and Israel before 1882 is kept at the History of Palestine (as a region) article. The downside would be that both articles would not contain any pre-1882 history. Or maybe it could as a small summarizing section that is identical in both articles. [History of Israel and Judah would reorganized as a subset of the History of Palestine; History of the Jews and Judaism would be moved to "in Palestine" and reorganized as a subset of the History of Palestine] Makeandtoss (talk) 10:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

We can't discuss what to do on other articles here, maybe at the NPOV notice board or on the village pump, but not here. Slatersteven (talk) 10:55, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it affects here, why the ever expanding "history" keeps getting added everywhere, including now here, because of a perceived equivalency with Israel article. We have had the "why is there all this history here" debate at the Israel article, to no avail and the same thing will occur here.

I am tempted to try and sort it out at IsPal collaboration but think it might well turn into the usual. I think we should first try and sort out the Palestinian/Palestine side of things, do it correctly and leave the Jews/Israel people to sort out their own mess. Selfstudier (talk) 11:05, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Citation needed

Hi,
The lead sentence asserts that Palestine is a country, but the footnote has the following error:  “The named reference :17 was invoked but never defined.”  Suggest either supplying a substantiating citation, or otherwise replacing it with a Citation Needed template  —Arrandale Westmere (talk) 04:46, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 July 2024

</div Depotadore (talk) 13:53, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Charliehdb (talk) 14:03, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Add a clickable song thingy where you can play the national anthem

</div Depotadore (talk) 11:05, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd agree that the anthem audio should be added to the country's infobox, similar to other states. We already explicitly state that it's the anthem, with sources backing it up. I don't see why a clickable audio file can't be added to the infobox here. AG202 (talk) 16:49, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done PianoDan (talk) 17:06, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Better reference needed for Palestinian Statehood

The reference used to validate Palestinian Statehood (ref #19) needs to be changed because it states the exact opposite:

From "United Nations Common Country Analysis for the Occupied Palestinian Territory" states:

"The text, designations, and presentations of materials in this publication, including their respective citations, maps, and bibliography, do NOT imply the expression of ANY OPINION WHATSOEVER OR ANY OFFICIAL POSITION BY THE UNITED NATIONS concerning the legal status of any country, territory, city, or area, or of its authorities, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers or boundaries." Meson81-wiki (talk) 19:35, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Removed ref. We don't need a ref for the statehood (or country, same thing, although I prefer state myself. I guess saying the State of Palestine is a state is redundant tho). Selfstudier (talk) 19:43, 15 August 2024 (UTC)