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Archive 1

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Starbucks suspending Halloween promotions untill the 1st of November?

This doesn't make sense as Halloween promotions always finish when Halloween ends. The article should simply say cancelled. 217.43.58.239 (talk) 06:15, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done--Belbury (talk) 11:17, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2022

Please change the infobox from df=yes to mf=yes combined with the usage of (start date and age) instead of just (start date), because i can't edited it due to semi-protected socks. For example (start date and age/2022/10/29/mf=yes). 180.254.169.174 (talk) 09:24, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done for "df=yes to mf=yes".  Not done for changing from {{Start date}} to {{Start date and age}} per Template:Infobox event. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 09:26, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

addition to international response section

Following can be added: India's Foreign Minister S Jaishankar echoed the sentiment and expressed condolences to the victims' families. "We stand in solidarity with the Republic of Korea during this difficult time," Jaishankar wrote. [Already available reference no.38 on article [1] can be used as source] alternatively [2] can be used. Ankraj giri (talk) 12:50, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done. Sarrail (talk) 13:29, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Italy's Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni states on her Twitter account: "Our thoughts are with the victims of the tragedy that occurred in Seoul and with their families. Italy is close to the Korean people at this time of great pain and deep sadness."

<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 Done Sarrail (talk) 13:47, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Proposal to put this in the News Section of the Main Page

Given that this occurred very recently and is significant, I suggest that this event be put in the "In the News" section of the main page once there is sufficient detail in the article. SkinOfHooman (talk) 17:43, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

SkinOfHooman, you could nominate it, but perhaps we should improve the article first? — Nythar (💬-🎃) 18:00, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

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Google Street View of the site

Although the lane on which the incident occurred is very narrow, good views of it can be found on Google Street View, one from the north looking down, the other from the major Itaewon-ro avenue looking north. Abductive (reasoning) 20:23, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

I believe Google Street View images can't be used on Wikipedia because they're proprietary to Alphabet. Ypna (talk) 20:47, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
I mention it here on the talk page for editors to familiarize themselves with the scene. It may be helpful to them when trying to describe the site and the event. For example, the photo currently in the article is very close to the site. Abductive (reasoning) 20:51, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
Due to wartime map laws, Google Maps is awful for South Korea. Their street view is 4 years out of date and missing several streets around the area. Naver Maps (SK-native site) is much better, and has very modern street view (such as inclusion of Troubador and Wakiki visible in the clips.
https://map.naver.com/v5/?c=14136829.5459002,4513930.7102082,20,0,0,3,dha&p=q7PdEWaIluKyhrjNwoicZQ,97.22,0,80,Float Phillycj 00:30, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Celebrity and candies

"Local media groups said people crowded into a bar because of a rumor that an unidentified celebrity was present, or that drug-laced candies were being distributed in clubs."

Of course, journalists try now to find the reason for the sudden crowd and maybe asked some passengers, but it is probably nothing more than that. Very unlikely that a celebrity rumor spreads and causes such a crowd. Probably, if you ask 100 person why they were there, you get 50 different answers. --Christian140 (talk) 08:59, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Research Process and Methodology - FA22 - Sect 200 - Thu

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 September 2022 and 8 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): JayHTCVPN (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by JayHTCVPN (talk) 14:26, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Investigation section

In the Investigation section, the text "Authorities did not immediately release what had caused the crush, but the chief of the Yongsan-gu Fire Department, Choi Seong-bum, said it was a presumed stampede and that many individuals fell." is very similar to the text in the reference at https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/29/asia/south-korea-halloween-cardiac-arrest-intl/index.html , which says "Authorities are still investigating what caused the incident, but Choi Seong-bum, chief of the Yongsan-gu Fire Department, said it was a “presumed stampede” and that many people fell, injuring at least 82." I don't know how to fix it, or to indicate that "presumed stampede" is a quote from the fire chief. Cauldron bubble (talk) 20:28, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

How are 4,000 people missing?

How do more than 4,000 people go missing in the middle of a metropolitan city with millions of people? AwkwrdPrtMskrt (talk) 14:58, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

There are thousands of people who were collapsed in the crowd crush. The figures for deaths and injuries are those that we already know of, and there are presumably many more. SkinOfHooman (talk) 17:22, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
Latest reports say
  • Fatalities: 154
  • Seriously injured:33
  • Slightly injured: 116
Now, No missing persons.

After accident, Many parents and friends who can't communicate Itawon visitors reported a missing person to Police station and so on.

Real missing person is not 4,024. 4,024 is the number of registration of missing person from parents, friends. Footwiks (talk) 05:59, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Int'l leader's condolences

The condolences are probably the least important aspect of this situation; it's not helpful to keep adding names to the article given the cite overkill tag. When will we stop? Dora the Axe-plorer (explore) 00:23, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Dang, that's a lot of citations. I'd suggest finding a source with the most notable people offering their condolences. Sarrail (talk) 00:39, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
That section is an absolute crock. It contributes NOTHING to the understanding of the incident. I'm inclined to delete the useless list and replace it with one sentence. WWGB (talk) 07:56, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Agree. It also brings the responsibility to track every country, whether they expressed or not. Starwanderung (talk) 09:31, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
minus Removed. Please ensure editorial consensus before adding anything similar. WWGB (talk) 10:23, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Thank you. I wanted it removed but wasn't sure if everyone had the same idea. Dora the Axe-plorer (explore) 10:43, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

I disagree with the removal. The lack of the international response is like watering this global shocking event from its extremely large scale to a limited scope that exists locally NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 12:12, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

The lack of reference about the global mourning for the victims from the international community, might be perceived as a minimizer of the real impact of the tragedy globally. The introduction should include a sentence highlighting the shock and sorrow the event has caused all over the world, with the reaction of the main world leaders and the international community, because of the high number of the victims and their pre-eminently young age. Thank you. Born free and equal (talk) 13:04, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Please beware, we didn't need a international reaction there, as the stampede only happen locally (that should only include local response only) despite being gather international attentions. Some IP remove the sentence about that. 180.254.169.174 (talk) 13:14, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

I disagree with the removal. It would make sense if there were only local deaths and it was only reported locally, but there are a number of foreign deaths that occurred and many tourists were also involved. Its also been posted about by a number of individuals that are not only South Korean.Leaky.Solar (talk) 15:28, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

As a comment, someone added International Responses as its own section. I've made it a sub-section of Responses for now. Leaky.Solar (talk) 21:00, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

I disagree with the removal as well. The international reaction section is completely lacking any reference about the impact and shock the event had in the international community. The news were reported by media throughout the world followed by messages of mourning from the main world leaders. Only making a list of quotes by a few leaders is pointless, deceiving and perceived as a minimizer, if not preceded by contextualization of the global impact of the tragedy, due to the high number of victims and their young age. If not, there's also then the responsibility of quoting every head of state without missing anyone, as another user pointed out. A sentence like this, for example: "The news of the tragedy were reported by media all over the globe, that saw the shock of the international community due to the high number of victims and their pre-eminently young age, followed by messages of mourning from the main world leaders" Or so, Thank you. Born free and equal (talk) 09:41, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Most internatiinal tributes say something like "the President of Foobar sent his condolences to the people of South Korea". Wtf is significant about such comments, usually sent by an underling in the foreign office? WWGB (talk) 09:50, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
You are minimizing the impact of the tragedy globally. Everybody all over the world were following the tragic unfold of the events and expressed condolences.
The event had an impact globally of shock, because of the high number of victims and the young age of them.
News about the crowd crush were on every mass media.
Where is all this? 87.8.12.26 (talk) 11:41, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
I think you are overplaying the global impact. Sure, it was reported in international media, but "everybody all over the world" and "an impact globally" and "on every mass media"? Just how have you come to this position? The article already reports "Other leaders expressed sympathies with the people of South Korea". Really, what more needs to be said? WWGB (talk) 11:50, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

International responses

Might I suggest prioritising describing the responses of countries who had victims in the disaster, for instance Norway which is only mentioned by name in a list of other countries. This seems a good way to prioritise a handful of countries who responded to the disaster? 2A02:C7C:C48F:5C00:EC96:924A:DF90:C924 (talk) 20:55, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Reported missing persons count discrepancy

The 2 sources on the article contradict each other on the number of missing persons as of October 30. The first states 4,024 [3], which is written on the Wiki article. The second source, assuming an accurate Google translation from Korean, states 355 missing.[4] Another source I found from The Korea Times, also published October 30, states 355 too.[5] Does anyone know why such a large discrepancy in the reported figure exists? Saucysalsa30 (talk) 03:20, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Latest reports say
  • Fatalities: 154
  • Seriously injured:33
  • Slightly injured: 116
Now, No missing persons.

After accident, Many parents and friends who can't communicate Itawon visitors reported a missing person to Police station and so on.

Real missing person is not 4,024 or 355. 4,024 or 355 is the number of registration of missing person from parents, friends. In my opinion, Criterion or just mistake cause large discrepancy.

Footwiks (talk) 05:42, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Yeah, agreed. I think for the sake of consistency on the article regarding the missing person reports from October 30, either 4,024 should be kept, or both 4,024 or 355 mentioned, seeing as the cited sources contradict each other. I'll denote both for now. Someone with better sourcing can change it. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 00:18, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

MOS:NUMNOTES

Please stop reverting the number corrections. There is nothing wrong with "hyphenating" numbers. Twenty-six is always twenty-six when it is spelled out. "Twenty six" is never correct. The MOS is clear. Read it. We don't mix spelled-out numbers and figures nearby (same sentence is certainly nearby): "Comparable values nearby one another should be all spelled out or all in figures, even if one of the numbers would normally be written differently: patients' ages were five, seven, and thirty-two or ages were 5, 7, and 32, but not ages were five, seven, and 32." Holy (talk) 18:29, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

In the sentence "Four victims were teenagers, ninety-six people were in their twenties, thirty-two people were in their thirties, nine were in their forties, and thirteen have yet to be identified" we have to use spelled-out numbers because the sentence starts with a number. You can't start the sentence with 4 and then use 96, 32, 9, and 13 in the rest of the sentence. Alternatively, you could recast the sentence so that it doesn't start with a number. Then we would be free to use figures throughout the sentence. But we can't use a mixture of spelled-out numbers and figures! Holy (talk) 18:34, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

proposal to add Lee Ji Han as one of the identified victims

The guy from produce 101, Lee Ji han, was identified among the victims and he is technically the most notable among the hundreds of victims who unfortunately died that fateful night. It would be fair at least to not just relegate him as a mere statistical death since some big names of the Korean entertainment industry including G dragon, offered condolences and paid respects to Mr Lee. I respectfully propose that his name be made an exception and he be named, as a sign of condolences for him in light of his passing.

https://www.straitstimes.com/life/entertainment/k-drama-actor-lee-ji-han-24-from-produce-101-killed-in-itaewon-halloween-crush

https://cnalifestyle.channelnewsasia.com/entertainment/seoul-itaewon-crowd-crush-stampede-lee-ji-han-produce-101-g-dragon-dindin-337376

https://www.allkpop.com/article/2022/10/late-actor-lee-jihan-was-going-to-be-in-the-upcoming-mbc-drama-series

https://www.soompi.com/article/1552092wpp/former-produce-101-season-2-contestant-lee-ji-han-confirmed-to-have-passed-away-in-itaewon

https://mustsharenews.com/lee-ji-han-seoul-stampede/

https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/lee-jihan-dead-seoul-crowd-1235163456/

https://www.nme.com/artists/lee-ji-han NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 12:10, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

  • "most notable among the victims" has no status, as he fails WP:NACTOR, an unsuccessful contestant in a reality television program. No reason to elevate him above all the other victims and single him out for naming. WWGB (talk) 12:18, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
    • comment@WWGB. as evidence, see SilkAir Flight 185#In popular culture. The Singaporean singer JJ Lin had a friend Xu Chue Fern who was one of the victims killed in the plane crash and one of his songs Practice Love was dedicated in memory of her. Her lack of notability other than her connection to Lin still allowed her to be included as one of the named victims of the disaster. This can be a precedent to allow the inclusion of Lee Ji Han as one of the identified fatalities in the stampede.
OK, then come back here when a song is released about Lee! We do not do "a sign of condolences". WWGB (talk) 12:26, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
@WWGB I do not wish to argue. I am not going to spark some edit war here but I feel that this info is relevant here. Even if it is not included, this is going to be included eventually into the article for the drama he appeared in (the one with Kim Jung Hyun and Lim Soo Hyang) once it is created. You are equally entitled to your opinion just as myself do, but I hope that you do not get the wrong meaning from my words. I wish to be wrong about this but the exclamation mark in your message is quite worrying here. --NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 13:16, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
@NelsonLee20042020: Policy requires that the person be notable to be named, unless there is overriding consensus on the talk page. (If more details are needed, see here for the relevant Village pump proposal.) The main problem is that your support to include this appears to be flawed. The possible fact that they are the most notable person who passed does not currently overcome policy regarding notability. Just because notable figures are offering condolences to this person, it does not guarantee that they should be named. Another article naming a victim because of a song being dedicated to them does not mean that a precedent has been set and, therefore, does not requires us to name this victim in this article. Finally, even if it ends up correct that their name will appear on Wikipedia due to a drama they appeared in, it still has no bearing here as that would be for that article and not for this article. I understand that you want to have their name appear here, but the reasoning behind why we should specifically include them is currently lacking. This does not mean that you should stop trying, but it does mean that you might want to think again about the reasons you have given so far. --Super Goku V (talk) 23:22, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
I suggests the need of separate article about Lee ji-han, because he has not yet created at Wikipedia. 125.167.57.106 (talk) 22:55, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Mostly opposed: So far, the reasons and sources provided by the user who proposed this have not been convincing. The only thing that is preventing me from being completely opposed is that some more notable sources have written articles about the passing of Lee Ji Han, specifically CBS News, CNN, Yahoo!, Variety. --Super Goku V (talk) 00:12, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
After the accident, Lee is regarded as a notable person in South Korea and Korean Wikipedia. He might be notable before the accident. Ghorosu (talk) 02:20, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
I can agree that he might have been notable beforehand, but I think it hasn't been proven yet with regards to us. Currently, the main sources about him in English were about his death, so it might be tricky to prove notability. Still, it might be possible. (I will say that the Korean Wikipedia is unlikely to be helpful, with the only reason for that being that the article there is a stub.) --Super Goku V (talk) 12:00, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Split Crush section

Hello all, the Crush section contains two dominant thematics :

  1. people massing up leading to a "crush" where people fall
  2. Emergency responses with ambulances coming, and overall efforts to pull people out, triage and CPR them

Also, since it seems better to the article structure to have 2 sections relative to these 2 dominant descriptions and issues, I just split back the section is two. Yug (talk) 🐲 15:16, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

"Vicenarians"? Really?

Under “Victims”, User:Rattatast changed “young adults” to “vicenarians”, saying it was a “more precise term”.[6] I reverted it, saying that the term is unfamilar to most people, and that I couldn’t find a single source saying “vicenarians”.[7] Rattatast promptly restored it, saying “it shouldn’t matter what term the media uses.”[8] Actually, we ARE supposed to reflect what Reliable Sources say. A Google News search finds not a single source using this word in connection with the incident. It is a real word, one of a sequence, but you never hear those terms used for anyone younger than say an octagenarian. “Vicenarians” is still in the article. I think "young adults" should be restored as per sources. What do others think? MelanieN (talk) 23:02, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

@MelanieN I agree with using young adults. You can't get more specific if you don't know the specifics. Besides we should consider readability over fancy looking vocabulary. Roostery123 (talk) 23:05, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Oops, I was mistaken about it still being in the article. The article now reads "Most of the dead were in their teens or twenties." I am OK with that. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:09, 30 October 2022 (UTC) ...And yet based on this report from the authorities - "Four victims were teenagers, 95 people were in their 20s, 32 people in their 30s, nine in their 40s and 13 have yet to be identified" - it is inaccurate to say most were in their teens or twenties. It looks like most were in their 20s and 30s. Now what? -- MelanieN (talk) 23:13, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

"Most of the dead were in their teens or twenties" would be WP:SYNTH then. Sungodtemple (talk) 00:26, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Maybe so, but not by us. That is what all the newspapers said during the first 24 hours. Now that we have more precise information, maybe we should remove it. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:30, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
I've removed it. Some1 (talk) 02:33, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
  • The word "vicenarian" isn't even in the online Oxford English Dictionary - which already contains words like "Covid", "influencer", and "side hustle". Unless the meaning of the word is obvious, we should avoid using those that are so rare that they aren't in the OED. It's not like 20-year olds are a new development. Nfitz (talk) 17:02, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Looks like the wording of that paragraph has been settled. We may need to adjust the numbers slightly as more information come in, but I think the current format and structure is fine. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:26, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Does it matter if a word is popular or obscure? At least it accurately describes the subject. Rattatast (talk) 21:45, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Yes it does matter User:Rattatast. WP:MOS tell us in WP:VOCAB to "Avoid words and phrases that give the impression of straining for formality, that are unnecessarily regional, or that are not widely accepted". I'm struggling to find a major dictionary that even includes "vicenarian" - if it's not in the OED (and surely many if not most of the words in the OED should not be used here!) and there's much more common and accessible language, then we should use that. How is "vicenarian" not florid? Nfitz (talk) 19:44, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Research Process and Methodology - FA22 - Sect 201 - Thu

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 September 2022 and 8 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Cw3956 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Cw3956 (talk) 04:34, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Propose to rename this to 2022 Itaewon Halloween crowd crush

Incident occurred in Itaewon, so I don't think using the Capital of the country, Seoul, is accurate in this instance. Yienshawn (talk) 18:50, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Agreed - This happened in Itaewon specifically so it should be specified as such. "Seoul" is too broad of a term. 211.229.11.70 (talk) 18:54, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
It might be a broad term for those who are familiar with the capital and understand its various districts, but those who are not familiar will default to Seoul. Not only that, but there are more articles using Seoul without using Itaewon than the reverse. I believe that more people are finding this article by searching for Seoul than with Itaewon. --Super Goku V (talk) 21:28, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
I wish to also add on that there are 25 districts in Seoul. So for this news, most definitely it should be worded with Itaewon than using Seoul. Similar to the Chinese article as well. As per other similar news, they were all written using the district/area which the incident occurred. Yienshawn (talk) 19:09, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
No, because the vast majority of people outside S Korea haven't heard of Itaewon. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 19:20, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
Well, everyone reading this article sure has now. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:12, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
Most won't remember that. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 08:56, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
It helps to hear it spoken. We have ways of making Wikipedia talk. Anyway, are you down with Halloween crowd crush or not? InedibleHulk (talk) 09:36, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
The problem with the title you suggest is that it doesn't say where it happened. When mentioning this disaster to someone, the large majority of people would include Seoul in their first sentence. Most people outside S Korea wouldn't include Itaewon, due to it not being known by the large majority of people. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:29, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
Many English-speaking users outside of Korea use the English Wikipedia. I highly doubt much of them know Itaewon. People when they see "Seoul", they see and understand "Korea's capital". When they see "Itaewon", they might think "Korea", but don't know where. Though I feel like it needs to be Seoul or Itaewon, because "Seoul Itaewon Halloween crowd crush" is probably too long.
Ntfresll (talk) 17:16, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Itaewon is a relatively well-known neighborhood of Seoul because it was the red-light district for American soldiers back in the day, and is where foreign tourists tend to go today, along with Insa-dong and Gangnam. But I don't feel it rises to the level of recognizability to be the title. Abductive (reasoning) 20:31, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
I'll object to "2022", though, as a rather pointless detail. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:22, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
I mean it could always just redirect from "Seoul Halloween crowd crush" to "Itaewon Halloween crowd crush," too, and I think the latter is better fit considering how big Seoul is. Phrogge (talk) 00:14, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Why? Itaewon is in the centre of Seoul - unlike the Seoul Olympics, which is much further out, right on the edge of Seoul - should we rename that as the Songpa-gu Olympics? Also, I'm not sure why User:Yienshawn is saying that the Chinese version uses Itaewon - the link they provided is zh:2022年首爾梨泰院踩踏事故 - which literally includes the word "首爾" which IS Seoul (zh:首爾). Nfitz (talk) 20:19, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
Yes, and for your knowledge 梨泰園 is Itaewon… Check their history and you could see that they renamed their article from just Seoul Stampede Accident (lit. translation) to Seoul Itaewon Stanpede Incident. Yienshawn (talk) 20:27, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
If the Chinese article includes Seoul in the name, User:Yienshawn then why are you proposing to delete it from the name of this article? If anything it was already too specific. Nfitz (talk) 07:55, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
Like I said, I propose renaming it as Itaewon Halloween Crowd Crash because other similar accidents were built tailored with specific area/district which the incidents occurred. Fair enough if you wish to include Seoul in it, then it should have been Seoul Itaewon Halloween Crowd Crush. Incident happened in Itaewon specifically, which was why I proposed to renaming to Itaewon. My point is clear from the start that the incident occurred in Itaewon, and as a wikipedia page about this incident, it shouldn't be Seoul which has 25 districts in it. Refer to all the stampede articles on wiki and you can find that they were all specific about the location. And those that occurred in stadiums, temples, etc. were named specifically to the location. To further just raise two examples: Los Olivos stampede which happens in Lima, Peru. You don't see them name it as Lima Stampede. 2022 Port Harcourt stampede, you don't see them naming as 2022 River State stampede. Yienshawn (talk) 10:48, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
Port Harcourt & Seoul are cities, so that's consistent. Likewise 2014 Mumbai stampede, 2017 Turin stampede & 2017 Mumbai stampede. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 12:24, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
We call that one "1988 Summer Olympics", whole different deal. "Seoul" was on the official logos and merchandise. Harder to ignore a full-on brand than a general setting. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:30, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
Seoul is mentioned 69 times in 1988 Summer Olympics, while Songpa-gu isn't mentioned once. But we know need the district in the name?
No, not now, now I'm convinced Halloween crowd crush is precise enough. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:31, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
Even though it was a Halloween party, it occurred on the 29th, would it really be the Halloween crowd crush? Bremps (talk) 03:35, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
If you think of Halloween strictly as a date (or sterner, just the evening!), no, of course not. But if you consider the crowd itself a Halloween crowd, drawn together by its shared interest in the wider spirit of "the Halloween season", sure. Maybe, just maybe, Halloween crowd crush is unique enough to stand on its own, untied to any particular region or subregion of the Korean Peninsula (titlewise). InedibleHulk (talk) 04:36, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
Every English language report I've seen uses Seoul in the Headline(or even just South Korea) with the district being mentioned in the article. Seoul crush and variations of that seem to be the standard term — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C3:AC82:8401:557B:C75A:30B5:C958 (talk) 13:18, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
Not in this case. Many Wikipedia articles in other languages use spesific place name (in case of Chinese, Indonesian, Japanese, Cantonese, and the original Korean Wikipedia name of the article as Itaewon crowd disaster or Itaewon tragedy). In some language, they use "tragedy" regardless whether they named "Seoul" or "Itaewon" (such as Indonesian, Portuguese, and Swedish Wikipedia). 180.254.169.174 (talk) 13:54, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
Agree. This tragedy happened at a specific place and so named it specifically for better context. It is a relatively popular and famous district in Seoul. Those who have not heard of it could learn the name then. 2001:D08:1015:997F:D58B:8EB:A474:F671 (talk) 07:22, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Context is key. Considering Wikipedia's international audience, the majority of whom probably have never even been to South Korea, "Seoul Halloween crowd crush" probably makes more sense. A redirect for "Itaewon Halloween crowd crush" should also be set up so that those who are familiar with the city can also find this page. Singaporeano (talk) 15:42, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Malaysian victim

I know BBC listed that there is a Malaysian victim, but the Minister of Foreign Affairs yesterday (2 November) refuted the allegation, as reported by Bernama news agency and it was picked up by several media outlets. Some sources in English: The Edge Markets, Malay Mail, and The Star. So, I would like to suggest adding Template:Disputed inline on the Malaysian victim count. Lulusword (talk) 12:09, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Additionally, here's an article written in Malay by Utusan Malaysia that wrote a concluding statement about the validity of the original claim. Lulusword (talk) 12:19, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
According to South Korean official announcement, No Malaysian fatality. No need discussion, If South Korean Government officially announce about Malaysian fatality, then let's add.Footwiks (talk) 16:36, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
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