Talk:Muhajir (Pakistan)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

The Muhajir was reorganized to create new pages for different Muhajir groups whose description was included in the main Muhajir page. - User:Siddiqui 15:35, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

General Musharaf is Punjabi Origin

Some one keeps on changing General Musharaf as Urdu speaking but the reality is he is of Punjabi origin because his family were settled down in Gaujrawala and His grandfather served in the Punjabi army unit. You can do a research yourself about his real identity. He is not Urdu speaking but his wife Sehba Musharaf is and he does not support MQM because he is Urdu speaking or something that is just misconception that needs to be fixed.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mohammadkidwai (talk • contribs) 08:45, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Quesytion: Then why he associate himslef with urdu-speaking community. Is he ashamed of his punjabi origns? He has claimed himslef Muhajirs many times in media and in his book "in line of fire". His roots are in Dehli. Their family migrated to dehli from Saudia arabia according to claim he make in his biography.

"My grandfather was landlord in paniput" (In line of fire page 13). I was told that my fore fathers have migrated from Saudia few generations ago".

Answer: Dehli also used to part of Punjab but General Musharaf was only born there. His true origin is from Gujrawala Punjab and he projects himself as Punjabi instead of Muhajir. Infact I have felt that many Pakistanis feel offended by this term "Muhajir" so I am not surprised that why people prefer to be called Punjabi or Pashtun other than Muhajir. General Musharaf is viewed as Muhajir by some people due to the reason that his wife is Urdu speaking. Even former prime minister Shaukat Aziz is punjabi speaking. Many people were also projecting him as Muhajir before that. Musharaf never lived in Saudi Arabia he lived in Turkey but his roots are from Punjab. "After Musharraf's grandfather, Qazi Mohtashimuddin, retired as the commissioner of undivided Punjab he bought Neharwali Haveli in the old walled city of Delhi where Musharraf was born"

REQUEST HAAATH JOR KEH

I think we should get rid of this page. We do not want any sort of Muhajireen ansaaar representation. This Muhajir "Gaaali" is worst than anything.Please I request you to remove this page. There are no Muhajirs in Pakistan and those who migrated to Pakistan are history now. We are the second and third generations of Pakistan and we are native Pakistanis not any Urdu speaking Muhajirs so why do we have to listen to Altaf Hussain who is paid by the Indian government to run a mafia in Pakistan. This man sits in the UK and spreads violence in Pakistan. All money of the Karachi people goes to him in the form of Bhatta(illicit Mafia/Gangster tax) and he is just fooling around the people of Pakistan. Pakistanis are literate now and there are hardly very few Paindoos who still believe in Punjabi Pashtun Muhajir wageera so we must act independently now and must reject thugs like Altaf hussain and his followers. Pakistan is our country and we must love this country and should not follow such people who travels all the way to India and to address people that Pakistan should never have been created or things like that. Please once again get rid of this page and everything related to the MQM. Thanks alot. (:— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mohammadkidwai (talk • contribs) 01:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

tell that to Mohajir's themselves, many of whome treat native Pakistani's, the people who allowed them to come to their lands, as backwards. They have lived in Pakistan for over 60 years, used it for all its resources, exploited and treated the native people badly, and talk badly about the country and its people at every given opportunity. After 60 years in the country I have yet to meet a single Mohajir who can speak a single native language of Pakistan. Many also, are not happy in Pakistan and act like a 5th column, Pakistan should begina repatriating them back to their native india and return those non-Muslim Pakistani Mohajirs (who fled to india) back in their stead because they were technically and still are real Pakistani's. Pakistan was and is for everyone but if there was no muhajirs so there was no pakistan and remember altaf husain is the only leader who speaks for us so please be kind. We gave you baggers and nude people a country and you disrespecting us.

REQUEST

Please do not edit this page if you are not a Muhajir or an indian muslim— Preceding unsigned comment added by Madman 0014 (talk • contribs) 16:24, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Why?So that it stays as a Muhajir or Indian Muslim POV?How stupid.Nadirali 03:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)Nadirali

I think that's wiki discrimination.... I find this discussion absurd while I do agree with the person that mentioned that the title should be Urdu speaking rather than Muhajir Urdu.

I agree. Not every Urdu Speaker refers to themselves and others a Muhajir. Some person had put in Zia ul Haq, Nawaz Sharif, Imran Khan, Saleem Malik etc. These are not Urdu speakers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.70.230.42 (talk) 16:31, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

MQM hold in Pakistan

How long Muhajir term is going to be imposed on the Pakistani people who once migrated to Pakistan. I think as long as people are afraid to speak out against Non Muhajir community in Karachi. Karachities are brainwashed my anti MQM thugs to hold a Muhajir identity and to act like victims but many intelligent Karachities nowadays are considering this fact that they are not Muhajirs any more and this illiteracy should end by now and they should stop supporting anti MQM and their thugs.

Mistake

Indian Muslims are not the same as Pakistani Muslims. Indian Muslim are the nationals of the India and we should be careful while making such distinctions because Indian Muslims represent their own country India whether they speak Urdu, Punjabi or any other language.

I agree. People like Dilip Kumar (Pashtun) and Mohammad Rafi (Punjabi) chose India as their country, not Pakistan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.70.230.42 (talk) 14:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

urdu is language of Pakistan becouse of muhajirs and MQM.

Do not edit? Why Not?

This is Wikipedia. Anyone who can contribute without bias can edit its content to improve accuracy.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.154.245 (talk) 12:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

true

do not vandalise this page

who removed the Massacre of Alighar ?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.29.194.169 (talk) 12:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Muhajir as a word in Urdu does not refer to Urdu speaker Muhajirs from India. I think the Urdu get this word from Arabic and it has same meaning as in Arabic. As the ethnic group is concerned this word is not just used for Urdu speakers it is also used for other Muhajrs in north of Pakistan. As I am from Sialkot, Pakistan and there local peoples used to refer my elders who migrated from India in 1947 as Muhajir. And all of them speaks Punjabi. Faraz Ahmad— Preceding undated comment added 00:39, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Consistency

There is no consistency in this article. It is very difficult to describe who a mohajir is in Pakistan. If this page is referring to 'Urdu-speaking' Mohajirs, then the following people should not be on this list: Waheed Murad (Punjabi), Abdul Sattar Edhi (Memon), Moin Akhtar (Memon).— Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.70.230.42 (talk) 19:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Who is changing "aligarh incident". I was in Karachi in 1986 and we all know that afghans and pashtuns did it after "operation sohrab goth" of Jonejo government. I can refer lot of news link for that incident.

Addition of more celebrities

I added the following people in the list of Mohajir celebrities:

I have removed Quaid-e-Azam Mohammed ali Jinna's name from the list as he was born in Karachi Sindh and his family lived there well before partition. so by any means he is not a mohajir as he did not immigrate after 1947.

"Jinnah was the eldest of seven children born to Mithibai and Jinnahbhai Poonja. His father, Jinnahbhai (1857–1901), was a prosperous Gujarati merchant who had moved to Sindh from Kathiawar, Gujarat shortly before Jinnah's birth.[4][5]"

He was just like most of us who are born in karachi but their parent(grand) migrated from North India. So thats makes him a Muhajir. His parents and fore fathers don't belong to Karachi. He spent most of his life in Bombay. At time of partition he was settled in Bombay and he migrated from Bombay along with his sister Fatima Jinnah.

Moinuddin Haider, Ishrat-ul-Ebad Khan, Azeem Ahmed Tariq, Mirza Aslam Beg, Aamir Liaquat Hussain, Mushahid Hussain, Nasir Aslam Zahid, Mir Khalil-ur-Rehman, Mir Shakil-ur-Rehman, Israr Ahmed, Jon Elia, Jamiluddin Aali, Amanat Ali Khan, Shafqat Amanat Ali, Ali Noor, Ali Hamza, Syed Kamal, Santosh Kumar, Darpan, and Aziz Mian.User:Mkhan32 6:27, 8 November 2006

Urdu Speakers and MQM

I have heard that Muhajir Urdu speakers think that Pakistan should never been created. I think these statement are quite harsh and especially when it comes out from Altaf Hussain it should be noted carefully because our forefathers gave their lives for Pakistan. Athltaf Hussain is not the voice of Muhajirs and Muhajir community needs to address this because such remarks are the reason that Muhajir communities are not not seen loyal to Pakistan. Let us compare Pashtun Muhajirs why they are called patriotic Pakistanis and not Urdu speakers. Karachi is not a province of Pakistan and staying in majority in Karachi is not going to help either. We do not need a separate identity. We do not need to be called Urdu speaking or from UP. We are going to have our generation after generation here so the title of Urdu speaking will be ended some day so its better that we should become merged with these communities so no one can single us out.

I can understand that we should not support MQM as they are violent, but what is wrong with fighting for identity and rights. It is not us but Ayub Khan who started discrimnation against Muhajirs because educated Muhajirs were a threat for his illegal rule. Sindhis in India are not forced to give up their identity then why us? I think we just need to change strategy and should unite Sindhis, Baluchis and other ethinic minority groups and should fights for our rights with them. We will not get respect in plate. We can call ourself urdu speaking sindhis but urdu is always our part of identity.

Born Pakistanis or Native Pakistanis

Second and third generation of Pakistanis are 100% born Pakistanis and should not be referred as Muhajirs.Muhajir is not an ethnic group in Pakistan. I think a person who is born in whatever province in Pakistan should be referred from that specific province. Karachi is located in the Sindh province and therefore a person born in Karachi should be called as Sindhi Pakistani instead of Karachi Muhajir.or else should be called urdus of sindh

Yes, all those Pashtuns (Pashto speaking plus the muhajirs who claim to be) , Muhajirs, Punjabis in Karachi and all over sindh are considered Sindhis? Yes, your totally correct (Y). As for Balochis and Brahuis in Sindh, yeah, they've been in Sindh for along time :/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.173.174.134 (talk) 04:40, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Recent Vandalism

Some totally ignorant and extremly biased ...... has recently totally vandalised this page but I have rectified his/her non-sense stupidity. Guys if u don't know how to write on an encyclopedia then plz abstain from doing so. Also this page is exclusively for the Urdu speaking Muhajirs of Pakistan. It should not be mistaken with the punjabi immigrants from East Punjab and Kashmir after 1947. Personally I think that this page title can be changed to the Native Urdu speakers of Pakistan as the second generation and third generation ( including me) are native Pakistanis, Who are born and bred here. As many think of Mohajirs as solely and exclusively the native Urdu speakers so the present title can also be maintained.

Also some guys here are continously trying to malign the Urdu speaking community of Pakistan. Posing themselves as native Urdu speakers they are actually extremly against the Urdu speakers of Pakistan. The Urdu speaking community has already suffered a lot at the hands of all other ethnicities of Pakistan, the army and of course greatly by the MQM and its cheif also. We can't tolerate more vandalism and betrayal now, but our centuries old refined culture and values binds us to respect even the rude behaviours of other people. Realton 15:48, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

There are also some guys who are trying to edit this page according to MQM ideology, by pasting separate links for MQM and other stuff. This is not a page for MQM to paste so many web links, You can do it on the relevant pages. So I have deleted all the MQM links and have pasted only the official website link in the "External Links" section. Realton 14:27, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

So people are trying to edit it according to MQM views so? is that unacceptable after all MQM dose represent a sizable population of Pakistan and most of the population of Karachi so they do have to voice thir views as do you and every one else on all issues Pakistani, its time w all learned to talk and listen to each other. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.163.113.121 (talk) 06:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Answer to the Recent Vandalism

I think majority of Pakistanis care about Pakistan as a united country and there are some people who want to divide Pakistanis in terms of groupings like Urdu Speaking Muhajirs , Punjabi speaking Muhajirs or Pashtu speaking Muhajirs. The national language of Pakistan is Urdu and Mogul Empire used to speak Persian not Urdu. The mingling of Persian became Urdu. Pakistanis should feel proud that Urdu is the national language of Pakistan not because Urdu was once spoken in India. The sympathizers of India should understand this carefully that Pakistan had three wars with India and India is still an open enemy of Pakistan. —Preceding unsigned

New pages should be created for other Immigrant groups of Pakistan

I want to request any sensible and unbiased wikipedian to please create separate pages for the immigrant Punjabis from East Punjab and also the Kashmiri immigrants. Some guys are getting confused as they are taking this page as a whole for all of the immigrants after 1947.This page is exclusively for the immigrant population and their descendants who speak the Urdu language as native or mother tongue.Realton 16:47, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding this Page

Urdu is the national language of Pakistan and all Pakistanis speak this language. There are no specific Urdu speakers in Pakistan. Punjabis are the largest majority in Pakistan and yet they also speak Urdu so this page is for all immigrants of Pakistan. Language is not a barrier in this case.

Clarification

The above comments just demonstrate the stupidity of the author who has made them. He is incapable of grasping the widely identified - and thus, correct - definition of Muhajir vis-a-vis Pakistan's various ethnic groups. For what it's worth, East Punjabi migrants don't identify with the term Muhajir. Moreover, the user above is also adding names to the list of notable Muhajirs who were born within the borders of what constitutes modern day Pakistan, before the division of the Subcontinent and don't even belong to communities identifying themselves as Muhajirs. In other cases, he is listing the names of individuals whose families did not even shift to Pakistan following the Partition, because they already resided within the borders of the newly formed state; more importantly, these same individuals belong to communities that don't identify with the term Muhajir (i.e. their roots lie within the regions comprising the state of Pakistan).

Further Clarification

I would call it as the fact of reality rather than the stupidity. Muhajir is not a recognized term used in Pakistan and does not represent any ethnic group in Pakistan. Urdu is a national language of Pakistan which is being spoken by all the Pakistanis in Pakistan whether he/she is a Pashtun, Baloch, Sindhi or even Punjabi. Let us not forget that there are four provinces in Pakistan and Urdu is the mother tongue of Pakistani nationals. My author friend does not know himself who he is referring as the Muhajir in the first place. Are we talking about Punjabi Muhajirs, Pashtun Muhajirs, Begali Muhajirs, Persian or Urdu Muhajir or even Kashmiri Muhajirs. They all migrated to Pakistan after the partition. Imran Khan Niazi is a Pashtun Muhajir whose family migrated from Afghanistan. Nawaz Sharif is a Kashmiri Muhajir whose both parents migrated from India and were Kashmiri Muslims.General Zia-ul-Haq is a Punjabi Mujahir who was born in Jalandhar, India, in 1924 and Jalandhar is not located within the borders of Pakistan. It’s part of the Indian territory. Thus there are no specific Urdu speaking communities in Pakistan since we all speak the same language Urdu and whether some communities identify themselves as Urdu speaking Muhajirs or not does not affect the true definition of the word Muhajir because it represents all Muhajirs of Pakistan equally.

What About Bangladeshis?

Were there any significant numbers of "Muhajirs" who went to Bangladesh, but who were not Bengalis themselves? Le Anh-Huy 22:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC) 22:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC) 22:06, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes there were, and we need to place these people somewhere on Wiki. Ratibgreat (talk) 16:45, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

What About Arab Muhajirs?

Are we considering those Arab Muhajirs who are the main reason that majority of Hindus and Sikhs became Muslims?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mohammadkidwai (talk • contribs) 18:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

What ignorant nonsense is this? Arab conquerers no longer exist in South Asia!...and "Pakistan" was mainly Hindu and Buddhist!...before the Islamic invasions....Sikhs are new! Le Anh-Huy 10:33, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Arab Muhajir Muslims are in the majority still. My family name is still the same and is still known as one of the famous tribes in Gaza and South Asian Muslims should be thankful to our forefathers who converted them to Islam. Without these Arabic Muslim scholars majority of Pakistanis would have been either Hindus or Sikhs. Many Arab Muhajirs in Pakistan originally belong to Syria, Palestine, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

What kind of self-hating propaganda is that? Anyone can take any family name; it is no longer relevant to talk about "origina" when it comes to converted peoples. You speak about Hindus and Sikhs as if they are a nuissance. That is pathetically self-hating of you...they are you! If anything, we should be thankful they haven't converted to Islam! Le Anh-Huy (talk) 15:49, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

The majority of muslim Pakistanis who are sindhi, punjabi and urdu speaking have roots from pre-islamic hindu or rigvedic clans, Pashtun clans/tribes and Turkic tribes/clans. Only a few come from Arabs. If any Pakistani muslim claims pre-islamic rigvedic heritage, he is not of putative arab descent like being an Awan, Queresh, Sayyed or sheikh, and most Pakistanis are non-arab, of Indo-Aryan and Iranic heritage.

Who is a Mojahir or not

I think defining the term is fairly simple all those who do identify them selves as mojahirs or "urdu speaking" are that after and why every one who dose not subscribe to their view becomes a bit rabid at the mention of the words" Mujahir' is beyond me after all this is supposed to be a free country or is tis a case of some people being more fre then others. Also I am queit surprised by the attitude of my brothern when thy can see discriination far away in places like phalistine etc hwoever are blind to what occours in their own country it is time to learned to listen and talk amoung ourselves without flaring up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.163.113.121 (talk) 07:03, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

How well are the mohajirs really assimilated in Pakistan

The text "After the partition in 1947 there have been many intermarriages that took place between Punjabi, Pashtun and Persian/Urdu speaking communities which is the reason that its hard to identify native Urdu speaking communities in Pakistan. Many Urdu speaking communities are so much merged with the Punjabi, Pashtun and Kashmiri communities that they do not identify them Urdu speaking at all. The second and third generations of these Pakistanis identify themselves as native Pakistanis instead of any specific communities." does not look very objective to me when compared e.g. to [1]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.251.190.230 (talk) 09:02, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Let me make it clear. In Punjab, Muhajjirs easily assimilate into those provinces, and their language easily changes to punjabi, as punjabi and urdu are close languages. Punjabis like Gujjars don't intermarry, however many punjabis do, so assimilation is easy. Inter marriage and cultural assimilation between Pashtuns has it's challenges, as Pashtuns usually tend to marry their daughters to their relative families, clans or tribes , and they think that if a non-Pashtun lady marries a Pashtun male, the Pashtun male is expected to pashtunize his spouse and the children, so in a racial sense, the male supremacy over females mindset among pashtuns sill applies when race mixing (apparently, this rule is implied in the Quran forbidding muslim women from marrying non-muslim men, but muslim women can marry non-muslim men if they live in a society where the gender supremacy gap is really small) . It usually depends on how weak the ethnic group bonds are in Pakistan. Also, dialects become so close, some people consider Urdu and Punjabi as the same language, how it's the case in Himchal pradesh where the hindi of hindus is identical to the punjabi of sikhs.

Are the Arab Muslims who settled in South Asia also called Urdu Speaking?

Many Arab Muslim scholars went to South Asia from different Arab tribes to spread Islam. They later settled in South Asia and after the partition in 1947 they migrated to Pakistan. Should these people be called as Arab Muhajirs.

There are no Arab settlers in Pakistan, except for a few in FATA. This article is about the Muhajir ethnic group pf Pakistan who are of Indian origin.

Arab settlers in Pakistan? were they from the Afghan mujaheddin? --108.173.174.134 (talk) 20:17, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Muhajir Nothing but a Vague Term

Muhajir term is quite a vague term used in today's world. It could have been encouraged by the political parties but many people are not sure what community it actually represents. Many people are still not sure who are original Urdu speaking Muhajir and who are not. If we consider Urdu speakers as the Muhajir then the both parents must be Urdu speakers not that father is Urdu speaking and mother is Punjabi/Pashtun speaking or other way round. After so many intermarriages in Pakistan it is impossible to identify native Urdu speakers in Pakistan. Some one might be the part of MQM but still it does not mean that they 100% Urdu speakers. I can guarantee you that from 1947 till now there are no specific Urdu speaking communities. This term should have taken out from the dictionary by now. Also Karachi is a known city where many people are Urdu/Pashto speaking people are found but this would really surprise many people when they will find out that they are actually Punjabi speaking communities. I have experienced that many times. I think its wise to forget about the term Muhajir because we still are getting many Afghan and Kashmiri refugees already so Muhajir term represents them better instead of the Native born Pakistanis.

You are totally mistaken when you say "I can guarantee you that from 1947 till now there are no specific Urdu speaking communities". What are you basing this on? The majority of Muhajirs in Karachi are Urdu speaking and most married within their own communities. Waqqashanafi (talk) 19:51, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Avoid Undecent Language

I have removed all comments with undecent use of language. Try to say your point of view in decent language and avoid using racial slogans as it just shows your family uprising. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boston31 (talk • contribs) 18:21, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Discrimination

I am removing the paragraph about discrimination which is unsourced and claiming that Muhajirs discriminate against other Pakistanis and the support behind this is that Musharraf is a muhajir. This is a ridiculous assertion but if someone insists on adding it, find a respectable source which says this. On the contrary, there are many sources Amnesty International which have historically claimed that Muhajirs were discriminated against well through the 1990's Inf fg (talk) 21:58, 26 March 2008 (UTC) Do Muhajirs own amnesty international? What do your want a raferandom? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.183.158.184 (talk) 12:54, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Other sections

Reading the paragraphs after the discrimination paragraph, I see they are all NPOV and ridiculous. Statements like Altaf Hussain has british citizenship and likes to create trouble in Pakistan and MQM still does not consider itself Pakistani and "no one likes Altaf Hussain" are not worthy of an encyclopedia article. Whoever added this can feel free to go to a message board and sound off on these issues and leave wiki articles aloneInf fg (talk) 22:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Mahajir or Urdu speakers are distinguished from other mahajirs/immigrants from India by the fact that they did not fit into the categories of being descended from Muslims in India of Afghan, Turk, Mughal, or Arab origins as there were already peoples of those ancestories in the North West of India, now called Pakistan. The people who are now called mahajirs are those who were initially called Hindustanis in Karachi, up to the 80's, and later as mahajirs due to MQM ( some people suggest that they should be called Baharatis as a majority of them migrated after the creation of Pakistan and the foundation of the Republic of India also called Baharat. The ancestors of these former Hindustanis are Hindus of various castes but predominantly Dalits or untouchables. This fact is attested to by various writers/scholars. Encyclopedia Pakistanica, an Urdu publication from karachi uses the above definition for mahajirs. It argues that in the land of Pakistan the Afghan, Turk and Mughal descended migrants were at home thus cannot be considered not natives whereas the Hindu descended new arrivals had travelled from their ancestral lands thus were 'foreigners' in the new state. Therefore, the article has inaccuracies at the beginning when it asserts that the mahajers are partly descended from Arabs, Afghans etc. Hence I will edit that to reflect historical fact. User: Moarrikh 16:13, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Genocide?

Partition riots cannot be called genocide. Even pogrom is a strong word Gs44631 (talk) 10:40, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Copyright problem

This article has been modified as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage). It has been reverted to remove content contributed by User:AlphaGamma1991, indefinitely blocked as a sock puppet of banned User:Siddiqui. Under various usernames, including this one, this contributor has added substantial content to Wikipedia from other sources without verifying proper licensing. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Major contributions by contributors who have been verified to have violated copyright in multiple articles may be presumptively deleted in accordance with Wikipedia:Copyright violations. My apologies to the good faith editors of this article for the setback. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 01:12, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Wrong language interwikis

Most of the language interwikis pointed to wrong articles, mainly about the first Muslims in history, the Muhajireen from Mecca. Even the Urdu interwiki ([[ur:مہاجر]]) pointed to a generic definition of the word and not to the Muhajir people. I deleted them and added [[ca:Mohajir_urdus]]. --Filius Rosadis (talk) 20:23, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Redirected orphan article "Urdu people"

I redirected Urdu people here. Some of the material belongs at Islam in India, but perhaps some would be of value here. I'll past below in case any is useful. — kwami (talk) 13:05, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

salvaged from Urdu people

For Urdu Speakers in India, see Urdu speakers.

Urdu or Urdu bolnay walay

Total population
71 million (estimated)
Regions with significant populations
Pakistan	20 million
India	51 million
Languages
Urdu
Religion
Islam

Urdu people or Urdu bolnay walay are an Indo-Aryan linguistic group from South Asia.

History==

Early History ===

Agra and Fatehpur Sikri in Uttar Pradesh were the capital cities of Akbar the Great.

Much of Uttar Pradesh formed part of the various Indo-Islamic empires (Sultanates) after 1000 CE and was ruled from their capital, Delhi. The history of UP Muslims is very the history of the Muslims in North India.

Later, in Mughal times, U.P. became the heartland of their vast empire; they called the place 'Hindustan', which is used to this day as the name for India in several languages. Agra and Fatehpur Sikri were the capital cities of Akbar, the great Mughal Emperor of India. At their zenith, during the rule of Aurangzeb, the Mughal Empire covered almost the entire Indian subcontinent (including present day Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangladesh), which was ruled at different times from Delhi, Agra and Allahabad.

When the Mughal Empire disintegrated, their last territory remained confined to the Doab region of Hindustan and Delhi. Other areas of Hindustan (U.P.) were now ruled by different rulers: Oudh was ruled by the Nawabs of Oudh, Rohilkhand by Afghans, Bundelkhand by the Marathas and Benaras by its own king, while Nepal controlled Kumaon-Garhwal as a part of Greater Nepal. The state's capital city of Lucknow was established by the Muslim Nawabs of Oudh in the 18th century.

Tomb of Sufi saint Shaikh Salim Chisti in Fatehpur Sikri, Uttar Pradesh

Sufis (Islamic mystics) played an important role in the spread of Islam in India. They were very successful in spreading Islam, as many aspects of Sufi belief systems and practices had their parallels in Indian philosophical literature, in particular nonviolence and monism. The Sufis' orthodox approach towards Islam made it easier for Hindus to practice. Hazrat Khawaja Muin-ud-din Chishti, Qutbuddin Bakhtiar Kaki, Nizam-ud-din Auliya, Shah Jalal, Amir Khusro, Sarkar Sabir Pak, Shekh Alla-ul-Haq Pandwi, Ashraf Jahangir Semnani, Sarkar Waris Pak, Ata Hussain Fani Chishti trained Sufis for the propagation of Islam in different parts of India. Once the Islamic Empire was established in India, Sufis invariably provided a touch of colour and beauty to what might have otherwise been rather cold and stark reigns. The Sufi movement also attracted followers from the artisan and untouchable communities; they played a crucial role in bridging the distance between Islam and the indigenous traditions. Ahmad Sirhindi, a prominent member of the Naqshbandi Sufi advocated the peaceful conversion of Hindus to Islam. Imam Ahmed Rida Khan contributed a lot by defending traditional and orthodox Islam in India by his famous work Fatawa Razvia.

Later History===

Burhan ul Mulk Sa'adat Khan

Safdarjung

As the Moghul power declined and the emperors lost their paramountcy and they became first the puppets and then the prisoners of their feudatories, a number of Muslim successor states arose, such as Awadh and the Rohillas. Of all the Muslim states and dependencies of the Mughal empire, Awadh had the newest royal family. They were descended from a Persian adventurer called Sa'adat Khan, originally from Khurasan in Persia. There were many Khurasanis in the service of the Mughals, mostly soldiers, and if successful, they could hope for rich rewards. Burhan ul Mulk Sa'adat Khan proved to be amongst the most successful of this group. In 1732, he was made governor of the province of Awadh. His original title was Nazim, which means Governor, but soon he was made Nawab. In 1740, the Nawab was called Wazir or vizier, which means Chief Minister, and thereafter he was known as the Nawab Wazir. In practice, from Sa'adat Khan onwards, the titles had been hereditary, though in theory they were in the gift of the Mughal emperor, to whom allegiance was paid. A nazar, or token tribute, was sent each year to Delhi, and members of the imperial family were treated with great deference; two of them actually lived in Lucknow after 1819, and were treated with great courtesy.

Aligarh Muslim University

By the early 19th Century, the British had established their control over what is now Uttar Pradesh.

Social system==

Some South Asian Muslims have been known to stratify their society according to Quoms. These Muslims practise a ritual-based system of social stratification. The Quoms who deal with human emissions are ranked the lowest.

It is commonly believed that Muslims in Uttar Pradesh are divided into the 'ashraf' and 'ajlaf' categories which are distinguished by ethnic origin and descent. However, a number of students making empirical studies of Muslim communities in different parts of India have found that this distinction is not really meaningful in understanding the existing pattern among the diverse social groups in any locality. It may be asked, therefore, if the 'ashraf' and 'ajlaf' categories constitute meaningful units of distinction for the study of social stratification among Indian Muslims. Technically, the ashraf are descendents of groups with foreign ancestry, while the ajlaf are those whose ancestors are said to have converted to Islam. The Ashraaf are further divided into four groupings, the Sayyid, the supposed descendants of the Prophet Mohammed, the Shaikh claiming descents from early Arab or Iranian settlers, the Mughal who claim descent from the Mughal Dynasty and finally the Pathan, who claim descents from Pashtun groups that have settled in India. Tecgnically the first two groups intermarry with each other, while the latter two intermarry. Included sometimes in the ashraf category are Muslim Rajput groups such as the Ranghar and Khanzada. A third category, arzaal are supposed to be converts from Hindu Dalit communities. The reality is more complicated, with UP Muslims identifying themselves in smaller units called biradaris, which are localized lineage groupings. For example the Qidwai Shaikh are one such localized lineage group, concentrated in Barabanki District.

Language==

The original language of the Muhajirs varied depending on the states from which they originated. The Urdu language was enforced by the elite Muslim minority who counted as less than 1% of Indian Muslims' population. It is of Indo-European origin and is similar to Hindi, albeit written with Arabic script. Urdu has historically, and in present times, only been the medium of the literature, history and journalism of South Asian Muslims living in the north of present-day India (mainly Uttar Pradesh and other parts of the Hindi-speaking belt). It has always been resisted along with Hindi in south Indian states and Bengal by all regardless of religion. At the present day it is only really spoken in the Hindi-speaking belt of India and urban areas of Pakistan. Urdu was brought to Pakistan by Urdu-speaking migrants from Uttar Pradesh and Bihar who settled in the urban areas of Sindh after partition. They formed a sizeable proportion of the Muhajir population in Pakistan. Muhajirs lobbied with success to make Urdu the official language of the whole of Pakistan, with the native languages of different states being the de facto official state languages of Pakistan. Punjabi is still by far the most widely language spoken by the majority of Pakistanis, signifying Muhajir influence on the political and cultural landscape of the country.

Demographics and distribution within India==

As per Government of India census data of 2001 total number of Urdu speakers in India were 51,536,111 (of which 51,533,954 spoke Urdu & 2,157 other dialects) which amounts to 5.01% of total population.

States of India with the largest 'Urdu Speaking' Populations are:

1. Uttar Pradesh 13,272,080
2. Bihar 9,457,548
3. Maharashtra 6,895,501
4. Andhra Pradesh 6,575,033
5. Karnataka 5,539,910
6. Jharkhand 2,324,411
7. West Bengal 1,653,739
8. Madhya Pradesh 1,186,364
9. Tamil Nadu 942,299
10. Delhi 874,333

Demographics and distribution within Pakistan==

Currently in Pakistan, around 7.5% of the population, or about 13.5 million citizens identify themselves as 'Urdu Speakers'. Of this number over 8.5 million reside in Sindh and over 4 million reside in Punjab and Islamabad. The vast majority reside in urban areas. A large number of muhajirs are educated and earn decent income, thus muhajirs are among the most highly educated and richest.

Cities with the largest approximate 'Urdu Speaking' Populations are:

1. Karachi, Sindh 6,500,000
2. Lahore, Punjab 1,000,000
3. Hyderabad, Sindh 700,000
4. Multan, Punjab 225,000
5. Rawalpindi, Punjab 175,000
6. Sukkur, Sindh 150,000
7. Bahawalpur, Punjab 125,000
8. Mirpur Khas, Sindh 125,000
9. Nawabshah, Sindh 100,000
10. Islamabad, Capital Territory 100,000
11. Sanghar, Sindh 75,000

Note: Figures are estimations based on the 1998 census of Pakistan and are rounded up to allow for slight population growth since the time of the report.

Urdu diaspora==

In addition to those in Pakistan, a significant number of 'Hindustanis' have left Pakistan and settled outside.

Regions with significant populations:

• United States 150,000
• Saudi Arabia 120,000
• Canada 80,000
• United Arab Emirates 50,000
• United Kingdom 25,000

Note: These figures are likely to include 2^nd and 3^rd generations who have been born overseas and are considered residents of their respective countries.

References

Urdu speaking Bangladeshis

There are about 300,000 Urdu speaking people in Bangladesh, originally from Bihar and neighboring eastern Indian states. They migrated in 1947 for the same reasons as the rest migrated to West Pakistan in 1947 - to join Pakistan - the supposed country of the Muslims of Hindustan. Where do we put these people in? Ratibgreat (talk) 11:17, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

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East Punjabi Mohajirs in Pakistani Punjab

The funny thing , the punjabi speaking muslims from east punjab who migrated and settled in pakistani punjab in 1947 are also called mohajirs in areas like Gujranwala division. Old generations from our areas call them mohajirs or foreign even though they are punjabi speaking because of their distinct accents. My family is Punjabi speaking kashmiri butt from gujranwala and we never marry with the punjabi speaking kashmiri butt who migrated from indian punjab eventhough they speak the same language because they are not local to gujranwala and are therefore not our kins, such is the racism that exists in the hearts of native people of west punjab or pakistani punjab. I feel our people are not happy that these immigrants who came from other areas have grabbed lands and houses left by hindus and sikhs as compensations, whereas the local native people are still poor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.51.200.28 (talk) 08:54, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

References

I have tried to to use more sources such as the following books:

1) Life after partition : migration, community and strife in Sindh, 1947-1962 / Sarah Ansari. 2. The long Partition and the making of modern South Asia : refugees, boundaries, histories / Vazira Fazila-Yacoobali Zamindar. 3. A people of migrants : ethnicity, state, and religion in Karachi / Oskar Verkaaik

These are generally recognized as good sources on the Muhajir ethnic group. On the origin point, someone keeps claiming 30% of Muhajirs are of Pashtun origin. Looking at 1931 Census of UP, the last to count caste, Pathans were between 5 to 6%, I have not checked Bihar or Hyderabad, but I suspect the figure is lower. However, I am not sure the figure for Muhajirs, but it can't be more then 10%. Most Muhajirs came from urban backgrounds, and the caste system could not survive the shock of partition. But still I am sure the figure for Pashtun origin is no where as high as 35%. The surname khan among UP and Bihar Muslims can signify Rajput or Jat ancestry, as it does among Punjabis and Sindhis as well. --WALTHAM2 (talk) 23:20, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Muhajir a unique people having modern life and have a modern thinking. Is it true or not?

In Pakistan I saw only Muhajir people having there unique style and their modern living and way of talking than others and they also play a great role in the development of a Pakistan in arts,media and other professions.

quiadeazam was muhajir he born in karchi but his family is originally from gujart and live in gondal town of gujrat so he is muhajir — Preceding unsigned comment added by O9rao (talk • contribs) 12:44, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Urdumand what an absurd will it be i will hate my self to be called a urdumand it sounds more like a slang word "BHUND"

It will be soo stupid if someone calls me a urdumand,urdu speaker is better or just urdu people.Calling urdumand instead of muhajir will be like saved from fire into hell.....ASMAN SAY GIRA KHJUUR MAY ATKA.. So I believe urdu bolnay walay is the best word — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.155.134.80 (talk) 10:39, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment on page title

Hi all, the article Urdu people and Urdu speaker is redirected to this page Muhajir, The term muhajir is used in Pakistan for the people migrated from Indian subcontinent during Partition and further more, Where as the title Urdu people and Urdu speakers is not justified to redirect to Muhajir people which are particularly related to the community in Pakistan, the Urdu people have there culture, tradition etc as similar as English people, Tamil people etc, and there are much more Urdu speakers in India, Bangladesh, UAE, UK, USA etc. Thus I recommend to create a seprate article for Urdu people and Urdu speaker. Need suggestions from regular and established editors. Regards :)--Omer123hussain (talk) 02:21, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Agree. Since most people in Pakistan who speak Urdu today are not Muhajir. Ans please see section below. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.63.196.39 (talk) 19:17, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

ürdu speaking people?

I tagged this article since speakers of Punjabi, Gujarati, Bengali, Few South Indians, yet only Urdu speakers are noted. I think it should include all while still noting urdu as their primary language.

Habib Ullah Warraich best defence Production minister Pakistan ever had

Major(R) [url=]Habib ullah Warraich[/url] was born on May 5, 1943. He has been elected as MNA as a PML(Q) candidate. He holds the portfolio of Defence Production in the Federal Cabinet and was previously a Minister for State with the same portfolio. Habibullah Warraich got his graduation degree from Islamia College, Lahore in 1966. He also served in Pakistan Army from 1966-1984 where he retired on the rank of a major. He was elected as MPA Punjab Assembly for the term of 1990-1993. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.143.234.74 (talk) 08:28, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

WP:NPOV violation

One or may be more authors of this article seem to propagate their own views and write material without credible references, for example The Electoral fraud by Pakistan Peoples Party caused protests around the country in section Politics is without reference, in the same way in the section Reasons for Immigration it states the reason to be anti-Muslim Programs of India, which may be one's opinion but should not be represented as fact by Wikipedia.There are several other things like that throughout the article. Wikipedia does not take sides. Please discuss.--Ubed junejo (talk) 19:48, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Greetings! I concur that there seems to be a lot of POV pushing in this article. I started writing a response to your post here, but it started to go off in different directions, and so I posted it as a new post below. But basically my thinking on the manner (and I suspect we're in agreement) is that people who edit this article should be people who can do so dispassionately and from an NPOV, and that we're not seeing that at present, or at least not enough so. Tigercompanion25 (talk) 20:51, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Muhajir is not synonymous with Urdu Speaker

As I've edited this article in recent months, I come time and time again on edits that seem to be using "Urdu Speaker" as a synonym for "Muhajir". Not all Urdu speakers are Muhajirs (also, speaker is not a proper noun; I've even encountered the nonsense phrase "Urdu Speakic" on this article.) This makes editing the article for grammar, punctuation, or coherency difficult. Take this sentence, for instance: "Many Urdu-speaking people had higher education, Aligarh Muslim University, and civil service experience working for the British Raj and Muslim princely states". Are the Urdu-speaking people referred to here supposed to be Muhajirs? The context would suggest so, but then why not just say it? I'm tempted to just change instances of "Urdu speaker" to "Muhajir", but I'm afraid that in some cases the editor who originally wrote "Urdu speaker" was actually referring to Urdu speakers in general, rather than just Muhajirs, and so changing it to Muhajirs would actually distort it.

If you go to the Urdu article, it suggests that large numbers of Pakistanis of diverse linguistic backgrounds speak Urdu to some extent, many as a second or third language. To use "Urdu speaker" as a synonym for "Muhajir" is downright deceptive. So why do people do it? While I don't doubt that many are editing in good faith, I suspect that in some cases the motive is politics, ethnic hatred, or linguistic animus. If you can't edit the page without your edits being clouded with your personal opinions and prejudices, than you shouldn't do it. That doesn't mean you can't edit Wikipedia, but it does suggest you should be editing other articles where your POV won't come into play.

And I know that issues of ethnic and linguistic identity are always complex and vexed issues, so if there are some Muhajirs who don't accept that name or consider it an exonym, I don't at all want to suggest that I don't respect that. My principle concern here is for coherency and consistency within the article and, as the article currently stands, it could give the impression that the phrase "Urdu speaker" is being used to push a political/ethnic/linguistic agenda, rather than to convey accurate information in an encyclopedic fashion. Tigercompanion25 (talk) 20:49, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

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Copyright problem removed

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Is Muhajir a tribe of Punjabi?

Muhajirs are considered to be a ethnic tribe of Punjabis, not only who are migrated from East Punjab but, the whole Indian Muslim emigrants to Pakistan, why? because, Urdu and Punjabi are same to speak literally. many of them are called Punjabis of Karachi and Hyderabad in Pakistan, and those who settled in Punjab, they totally called Punajbis. not us but Pashtuns, Balochs, Sindhis, Brahuis are called Muhajirs a Punjabi tribe.

Some of them are indeed East Punjabis. Hopefully it will be added into the article, but with reliably sourced.76.69.44.222 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:12, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 March 2020

I am requesting a restoration of the languages in the infobox and their citations. All of these are reliably sourced and were replaced by unsourced edits--76.69.44.222 (talk) 02:11, 27 March 2020 (UTC) 76.69.44.222 (talk) 02:11, 27 March 2020 (UTC) Here are the sources in the infobox — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.44.222 (talk) 02:15, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

 Done {{replyto}} Can I Log In's (talk) page 01:54, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

 Undone: This request has been undone.  Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. {{replyto}} Can I Log In's (talk) page 15:57, 8 April 2020 (UTC); edited 16:00, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 2 October 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

---

• Muhajir people → Karachiwala
• Muhajir culture → Karachiwala culture
• List of Muhajir people → List of Karachiwala

– More relevant with current identity issues. Chateau Louis XIV (talk) 18:26, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. Your reasons for requesting this move are very vague. You're going to have to provide more justification and evidence that "Karachiwala" is the more common name for this people group. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:04, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
• Requests merged into one – Thjarkur (talk) 21:58, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose, the term does not exist in English sources at all. Can possibly be speedy closed, in any case the proposer is blocked. – Thjarkur (talk) 22:04, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Suggestion to rename article to Indian Pakistanis

When a Chinese person migrates to America, they are called Chinese Americans. When Irish people migrate to Australia, they are called Irish Australians. when Indian people migrate to the UK, they are called Indian Britons. When Italian people migrate to Canada, they are called Italian Canadians. But when Indian people migrated to Pakistan, suddenly they are called Muhajirs? The word "muhajir" is just "migrant" in Arabic (a term the Muslims of India who were migrating to the part of India that was to become Pakistan called themselves to feel like they were doing it for religious reasons - anything Arabic sounding automatically becomes pious in the eyes of most non-Arab muslims). Of course, there will be resistance against the term "Indian Pakistani" due to the decades of political propaganda in both India and Pakistan, Pakistani nationalism (trying to create an independent identity after 1947, which was a huge failure when Bangladesh happened and continues to fail in frontier regions, Kashmir, Balochistan, etc), Hindu nationalism that wants to distance itself from Muslims (Pakistanis), a false sense of Persio-Arabic descent that most Pakistanis have chosen to adopt, etc. However, this is Wikipedia and we must be impartial. We have to be factual and call something what it actually is, rather than what the nationalist propaganda or people's emotions are shouting. Waqqashanafi (talk) 20:09, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Oppose The opening already states they are multi-ethnic (doesn't it?) and there aren't any sufficient reliable sources sources going by the term "Indian Pakistani"--Sylvester Millner (talk) 01:50, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 29 August 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Muhajir (Urdu-speaking people).

The two participating editors have reached consensus. (non-admin closure) Havelock Jones (talk) 10:07, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

---

Muhajir people → Muhajir (Urdu-speaking) – Muhajir is a disambiguation page and Muhajir people is equally ambiguous. Due to the ambiguity of the title there is also discussion about the scope of the article (see above). A disambiguator would solve these problems. Muhajir (Indian migrants to Pakistan) could be an alternative target. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:44, 29 August 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. VR _talk 05:03, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Pakistan has been notified of this discussion.VR _talk 05:08, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Comment Wouldn't Muhajir (Urdu-speaking people) be a better disambiguator? I think "Indian migrants to Pakistan" is too wordy to be a good disambiguator. If moved, the resulting redirect at Muhajir people should be retargeted to Muhajir as {{R from incomplete disambiguation}}. Mdewman6 (talk) 00:10, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

That is a reasonable alternative. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:21, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• The page Muhajir people had a lot of incoming redirects and these have now ended up pointing, most of them incorrectly, to Muhajir. The list is here. Anyone interested in fixing them, Marcocapelle, Havelock Jones? (I would have done so myself, but I'm editing on an ancient device with a rickety internet connection these days). – Uanfala (talk) 12:00, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

On it. Havelock Jones (talk) 12:04, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

I think that Mohajir, Mohajirs, Muhajirs, Mujahir, Muhajirism, مہاجر, Ethnic Muhajir, Muhajir community, Mohajer people, Mohajir people, Muhajer people, Muhajir society, Muhajir diaspora community, Muhajir people, Muhajir immigrants, Muhajir migrants, Muhajir settlers, Muhajir peoples and Muhajir people correctly link to the DAB page. Feel free to correct if you know better. I have moved the others. Havelock Jones (talk) 12:26, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Conversely, see here for redirects now pointing to this article, which includes various groups of migrants from India to Pakistan. I am not sure whether all of these fall within the scope of this article, so perhaps someone could check? Havelock Jones (talk) 12:36, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

• Uanfala Marcocapelle I disagree with this rename and don't think the new title is helpful at all. It is inaccurate for one; while it's true that the vast number of "Muhajirs" in Pakistan were Urdu-speaking people, many of them came from non Urdu-speaking backgrounds (Gujaratis, Bengalis, Rajasthanis, South Indians etc.). The title in fact contradicts the article's own lead, which states Muhajirs are "Muslim immigrants, of multi-ethnic origin, and their descendants, who migrated from various regions of India...". I'm not sure if the article rename was even required in the first place, given it was longstanding and also given that there's no evidence of any other group of people who identify with this term in an ethnic connotation. And if at all it was necessary, consider Muhajir people (Pakistan) or Muhajirs (Pakistan) instead? Mar4d (talk) 10:13, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
  • I have no opinion on whether there should be a primary topic, but if there isn't one, then yeah, using the country name as a disambiguator is much better. – Uanfala (talk) 10:33, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
    • I am open to an alternative disambiguator. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:48, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
      • Procedurally, Mar4d, there should be a new move request. It seems too late to challenge the previous closure.VR _talk 06:49, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2022

Hello moderators, I shall be happy and with full heart be ready to serve my edit here, if it is approved i will be wholeheartly accepted to it. I want to add a citation link to a article. JayJok (talk) 18:52, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone may add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. —Sirdog (talk) 16:43, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 August 2022 Invalid source.

Change "100% literacy rate" to "70% literacy rate" source: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/4b6fe2dd0.pdf MJTCQ (talk) 14:48, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

 Partly done: I have opted to remove mention of the literacy rate percentage in the relevant sentence entirely as the citation within the text didn't support it. I decided to not re-phrase the entire sentence to account for both the statement of To this day Muhajirs are seen as the most educated and literate ethnic group of Pakistan, which the cited source does appear to support, with the source you have provided that states the literacy rate is 70%. I am also hesitant to use that percentage as the provided document is 14 years old. —Sirdog (talk) 16:50, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Canada

I used [2]https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/dp-pd/prof/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&Geo1=PR&Code1=01&Geo2=PR&Code2=01&Data=Count&SearchText=Canada&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=Language&TABID=1 to find out amount of muhajirs divide it by 35% Flamealpha123 (talk) 18:55, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 October 2022 (inflated numbers/difference between Muhajirs and Urdu speakers)

The number of 30 million is problematic for many reasons.

For instance it's well known that most of the Muhajirs are in Karachi, where they form around 40%.

But Karachi's total pop is 15 million, so when even not all of Karachiites are Muhajirs how can they be 30 million in the whole country, having no substantial in any other city minus "tiny" Hyderabad?

Truth is that Muhajir organization confuse speaking Urdu and being a Urdu speaker (Muhajirs):in Pakistan the census is not ethnic but linguistic, and you have millions of urban Punjabis who now have Urdu as their mother tongue, in cities such as Lahore.

So while they're "technically" Urdu speaking they're not "ethnically" Muhajir (people with roots in Hindu majority provinces of modern India such as Uttar Pradesh, Gujarat, etc)

We also have to keep in mind that Muhajirs doesn't mean migrants either, as +90% of migration came from East Punjab to West Punjab.

The same with the diaspora : when you know that 70% of the British Pakistanis have roots in Mirpur/Kashmir there's no way that 300 000 out of 1,2 million British Pakistanis are Muhajirs, they might be Urdu speakers (ethnic urban Punjabis from Lahore as I said) but not Muhajirs, who don't move to the UK en masse.

So what do I propose?

Instead of quoting ethnic organizations which will always exaggerate numbers, or dubious encyclopedias not showing their sources or relying on the said ethnic organizations, let's instead go to the academics specialized in the field.

For instance Oskar Verkaaik in "Migrants and Militants", the only academic publication entirely dedicated to Karachi.

Woud go like this

Muhajir

مہاجر
A train with a group of people affected by the exchange of population during partition of India
Total population
c. 8 million
Regions with significant populations
Pakistan	7 million, including 6 million in Karachi and 1 million in Hyderabad, Sindh
Bangladesh	300,000
United States	188,983
Languages
Urdu Gujarati (Memoni) Rajesthani Other South Asian languages
Religion
Islam (100%)
Related ethnic groups
Deccani People

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:a03f:6504:1700:1826:f6b0:c58b:233 (talk) 04:39, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: The template you have provided does not appear to be formatted correctly as various countries are missing. Furthermore, if you are attempting to debate the reliability of sources currently present, that's gonna need a consensus discussion and is outside the scope of edit requests. —Sirdog (talk) 07:54, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

thanks for the response, for other countries I can accept the numbers, but I still believe that for Pakistan my numbers (backed by actual academic source, not ethnoreligious organization) are fairer, so I'd like the community to reconsider the consensus about the sources following my comments, cheers.

As Sirdog mentioned, consensus discussion is outside the scope of an edit request. It should not take place here. Actualcpscm (talk) 21:22, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

References

Requested move 19 November 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Per consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 23:42, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

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Mahajir (Pakistan) → Muhajir (Pakistan) – The whole article is using the Muhajir spelling so it doesn't make sense to use the Mahajir spelling. Also, most of the citations are using the Muhajir spelling. Flamealpha123 (talk) 17:27, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 21:43, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 30 December 2022

The fact that there is a sentence in the intro suggesting Muhajir refers to "mainly elites" is categorically false. Historically, even demonstrated in the article itself, the Muhajir experienced discrimination due to being perceived as unskilled, amongst other reasons. 86.151.106.129 (talk) 01:23, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: Please provide reliable sources to dispute this description, as there is a WP:RS describing them as 'elites' currently. Tomorrow and tomorrow (talk) 01:49, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 January 2023

MQM-p cap 51.36.220.140 (talk) 05:47, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it is not clear what change you want made. – small jars tc 12:25, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Please add 2016-present

Please add 2016-present politics Goofy Ahh (talk) 16:23, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Infobox image

The image in infobox is of a train carrying refugees from Punjab. By their attire also they look Punjabi. Are refugees from Indian Punjab to Pakistani Punjab also called Muhajir? Thanks. Jonathansammy (talk) 19:52, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Punjabis are not muhajirs. So I changed the image, good catch btw. FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 18:07, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Society Stubs

Hi I have removed to stub sub-sections from society their source code is:

=== Sports === {{Section stub|date=February 2023}} Until the 1970's, Karachi had been a historical centre for producing cricketers and hockey players for the [[Pakistan national cricket team]] and [[Pakistan men's national field hockey team|hockey team]]. Some notable sportsmen from a Muhajir background include [[Javed Miandad]].<ref>{{Cite web |last=Paracha |first=Nadeem F. |date=2013-09-19 |title=Pakistan cricket: A class, ethnic and sectarian history |url=http://www.dawn.com/news/1043800 |access-date=2023-01-29 |website=DAWN.COM |language=en}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web |last=Paracha |first=Nadeem F. |date=2021-04-11 |title=SMOKERS’ CORNER: PAKISTAN CRICKET AND ITS ETHNICITIES |url=https://www.dawn.com/news/1617560 |access-date=2023-01-29 |website=DAWN.COM |language=en}}</ref> === Health === {{Section stub|date=February 2023}} In the ethnic groups of Pakistan, the lowest prevalence of metabolic syndrome was seen in Muhajirs (32.5%).<ref>{{Cite journal |last=Faraz |first=Danish Alvi |title=Ethnic differences in metabolic syndrome among South Asians of Pakistan. |journal=Pakistan Journal of Medical Sciences |volume=27 |issue=3}}</ref> Muhajirs have a gene diversity of 0.6081, which is 0.001 less than the Pakistani average of 0.6091.<ref>{{Cite journal |last=Nuzhat |first=Akram |last2=Farooqi |first2=A |last3=Shakeel |first3=R |date=2014-03-04 |title=A model-based 'varimax' sampling strategy for a heterogeneous population. |journal=Annals of Human Biology |volume=41 |issue=2 |pages=116–126 |via=Academic Search}}</ref> The overall prevalence of proteinuria in Muhajir children 3.6%.<ref>{{Cite journal |last=Jafar |first=Tazeen H |last2=Levey |first2=Andrew S |last3=Schmid |first3=Christopher H |last4=Portman |first4=Ronald |last5=Khan |first5=Abdul Qayum |last6=Anas |first6=Rabbani |last7=Khan |first7=Iqtidar |last8=Hatcher |first8=Juanita |last9=Chaturvedi |first9=Nish |date=2005-10-25 |title=Proteinuria in South Asian children: prevalence and determinants |journal=Pediatric Nephrology |volume=20 |issue=10 |pages=1458-1465 |doi=10.1007/s00467-005-1923-8 |issn=0931-041X |via=Academic Search}}</ref>

To edit these sections copy this code to your sandbox and then improve them FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 06:04, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Recent Vandalism

I noticed that @Sylvester Millner keeps Vandalising this page such as yesterday:

• Deleted facts from the lead section
• Messed up The Feroz Ahmed citation I fixed
• Added Punjabi as A muhajir language (It is clearly stated punjabis are not muhajirs)
• Added Christianity as a religion (It is clearly stated only muslims are muhajirs)
• Reverted my merger of the linguistic groups section
• Removed Rohingya people from the linguistic group for no apparent reason
• Reverted my copyedit of the Bangladesh sub-section
• Removed the involvement of urdu-speaking people in mughal sub-section
• Removed a reliable source from line 177
• Reverted my copyedit of the 1988-2016 sub-section
• Deleted the whole Social and political views section (all sourced)
• Deleted half of Education section (all sourced)

If you have a reason for solid reason for these edits please state it here. FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 04:32, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

User:Flamealpha123, your edits in the lead are highly promotional and not supported by reliable sources, but by promotional commentary. Multiple sources cited and even linked in further reading clearly state they are in fact not an ethnicity. The sourced edit in the infobox clearly lists East Punjabis as one of the Muhajir ethnic groups. You also re-wrote the lead section making it seem like that Muhajirs can speak Gujarati, Rajesthani, Punjabi etc. rather than these being their native languages. This is misleading information and discounting them as their native language. They also don't speak Urdu natively as that's only one of their native language. Don't fill the article up with misleading information. What you've been doing is going against WP:NPOV by putting in promotional edits and misquoting sources as well as WP:Vandalism by removing reliably sourced edits and replacing them with poorly sourced and even misrepresenting sources. You have got to stop this.--Sylvester Millner (talk) 01:17, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I was talking about the edits i mentioned above such as the revert of copyedits, any reason for that? Or maybe you dont want the muhajir article looking good. FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 05:32, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

The term usually does refer to them as a "multi ethnic group of people" and may refer to East Punjabis (who migrated after partition) per multiple scholarly sources like this one:

https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/37127

But it is also an ethnic group if we're only talking about Sindh based Muhajirs who have largely adopted this identity as an "ethnic group", also according to many reliable sources.

For example: https://www.dawn.com/news/1100948

This article needs to be updated to include them all and specify this information Uzek (talk) 15:53, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/37127 is not reliable source, it is a mirror of an old wikipedia page FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 05:42, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Look at this https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Muhajir_(Pakistan)&oldid=1010745678 99% same as this https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/37127 FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 05:44, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Other sources exist too (on this very page). Like [3] . Plus they are already mentioned in the history section "First stage (August–November 1947)". And look at this scholarly source which talks of the term being originally used for generally all migrants, but the Punjab based ones assimilated and don't use the term anymore. [4]

Also, another is this source which speaks of the term "Muhajir" being evolved over time as an ethnic identity exclusively in Sindh, but not Punjab [5] Uzek (talk) 05:08, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

the first source (jaffrelot) you gave says only gujaratis and urdudaans are muhajirs

the second says east punjabis stopped calling themselves muhajir FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 19:41, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Oh I see what you mean. The term muhajir was used for Punjabis. Yes we can add this to the article that the punjabi migrants used the term muhajir for some time, but we cant add punjabi as a muhajir language FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 04:20, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

@Uzek: it was included and even sourced, but User:Flamealpha123 removed them as well as misrepresented a number of sources. I myself found a second source for East Punjabi Muhajirs. Unless that user justifies their edits, I am entitled to revert them.--Sylvester Millner (talk) 03:42, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

@Uzek: can you please copy and paste the changes you made to the article talk page for saving. I'll explain why I want you to save them here.--Sylvester Millner (talk) 03:24, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Do you mean changes I made to the article? If yes, then they were mostly copyedits/rewordings of existing content. And removal of non encyclopedic unsourced content. (Plus minor sentence additions here and there) Uzek (talk) 05:17, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

@Uzek: save it anyways. Because I don't want there to be confusion or conflicting edits later. If I accidentally remove what you did, then copy and paste it back rather than reverting to avoid messing the article. Can we agree to go like that?--Sylvester Millner (talk) 04:46, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Sure. I remember the changes. I don't think reverting will be necessary Uzek (talk) 17:44, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Ethnic groups

Muhajirs are a ethnic groups? Please provide citations and read any of the citations used such as brittanica or anything else FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 14:19, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

There are multiple citations, which you've been distorting. Also there are a minority of Christians amongst them.--Sylvester Millner (talk) 23:40, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Give me one citation that says MUHAJIRS ARE CHRISTIANS or anything like that. We can't just use sources referring to Indian migrants as not all are muhajirs (see ethnic definition of muhajirs). FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 05:23, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 April 2023

people who came from India to Pakistan were Refugees not migrants. 94.202.214.83 (talk) 14:11, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Actualcpscm (talk) 15:34, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Question Regarding Muhajirs being Ethnolinguistic

The description of the page it is written as "Ethnolinguistic group...", I think there are mass errors with the description Muhajirs being ethnolinguistic, @Flamealpha123 do you understand the difference between Ethnoreligious and Ethnolinguistic and have you compared them both in contrast with the history of Muhajirs since 1947? I think you don't understand why migration of Indianized Muslims from India to Pakistan happened. ⭐️ Starkex ⭐️ 📧 ✍️ 12:28, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Please read WP:NPA, before mentioning me again. As for muhajir identity being a primarily linguistic one:

• https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323833025_The_Mohajir_Identity_in_Pakistan_The_Natives%27_Perspective
• https://books.google.com.sa/books?id=W7NLEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA216&dq=muhajir+identity+linguistic&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwinm_TZ0-P-AhUMgv0HHVfmAvUQ6AF6BAgCEAI
• https://books.google.com.sa/books?id=I51EAQAAIAAJ&q=muhajir+identity+linguistic&dq=muhajir+identity+linguistic&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=1&printsec=frontcover&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwinm_TZ0-P-AhUMgv0HHVfmAvUQ6AF6BAgLEAI
• https://books.google.com.sa/books?id=t7wIEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA532&dq=muhajir+identity+linguistic&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwinm_TZ0-P-AhUMgv0HHVfmAvUQ6AF6BAgEEAI

FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 16:45, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

I never made an personal attack on you, The reason I referred to you only is because in the span of months most of the edits in the article have been done by you only. That seems really biased. ⭐️ Starkex ⭐️ 📧 ✍️ 13:56, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Biased because I want to help Wikipedia grow? And btw what is this supposed to mean? I think you don't understand why migration of Indianized Muslims from India to Pakistan happened. Is this about my edits or me? Also look at this https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Muhajir_(Pakistan)&diff=prev&oldid=1143511618 you were the one who called us a ethnolinguistic group. FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 17:19, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Article written on fanpoint view

Overall I believe strongly that i have found some biases in the article that might apply with the Wiki:NPOV, as a member of Wikipedia community i believe that it is strongly needed for the article to be reedited with a neutral point of view (NPOV) to ensure that information is presented in a way that is knowledgeable for all.

Here are some lines which i strongly believe can be of a fan's point of view:

Article title
The Muhajirs are the most educated, and affluent ethnic group in Pakistan. Because of this, they constituted a influential community in the earlier years of post-partition Pakistan.

Geographic distribution, Pakistan
The muhajir dominance of Urban sindh has led to that region being referred to as Urdu-speaking Sindh.

History
On 14 August 1947, the muhajir led Pakistan movement succeeded in creating an independent state for Indian Muslims under the banner of Pakistan.

• 1958-1970

The percentage of Muhajirs in the civil service declined while the percentage of non-muhajirs increased.

Society

• Economic status

and pay more taxes than any other ethnic group.

• Education

Muhajirs are seen as the most-educated and literate ethnic group in Pakistan. ⭐️ Starkex ⭐️ 📧 ✍️ 06:10, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Everything is cited FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 04:08, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

This reply was highly unprofessional and written from a biased view nevertheless I appreciate you're opinion, this reply explains Muhajir inferiority complexes that have existed since 1947 against every other group of Pakistan that doesn't speak Urdu.
Thanks.
⭐️ Starkex ⭐️ 📧 ✍️ 16:20, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Nice one. Most educated and richest ethnic group feeling inferior. But whatever, lets get on with this so-called Fan POV

• The Muhajirs are the most educated, and affluent ethnic group in Pakistan. Because of this, they constituted a influential community in the earlier years of post-partition Pakistan. This has been cited and is a fact, like US is the most influential country in the world. This is a plain fact. Read the rest of the article and you will understand how muhajirs were influential and btw urdu the national language of pakistan is native to only one ethnicity of Pakistan: muhajirs.
• The muhajir dominance of Urban sindh has led to that region being referred to as Urdu-speaking Sindh. I changed this slightly to this region is sometimes referred to as Urdu-speaking Sindh because of its large muhajir population
• On 14 August 1947, the muhajir led Pakistan movement succeeded in creating an independent state for Indian Muslims under the banner of Pakistan. Cited and plain fact, muhajirs dominated AIML and made pakistan.
• The percentage of Muhajirs in the civil service declined while the percentage of non-muhajirs increased. Removed this because this was irrelevant, the paragraph was talking about elections not jobs.
• and pay more taxes than any other ethnic group Cited and fact not POV

FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 06:41, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

@Starkex: I left a warning on that user's page. Not all Muhajirs speak Urdu and not all of them are Muslims and that's what's the problem with this persons edits.--Sylvester Millner (talk) 04:38, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Understanding issues

@Starkex: I also left a message User:Flamealpha123 to avoid personalization of differences. Said that, let us come to content part. Starkex, Article subsections Muhajir (Pakistan)#Economic status and Muhajir (Pakistan)#Education seem to be well cited. And summary statements in lead do not need citation if supported by citations in rest of body text. Do you have any objections on citations used in these two subsections? Bookku (talk) 09:34, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, nevertheless i appreciate you're contributions towards a neutral and knowledgeable WikiPedia. Starkex (talk) 18:13, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

The sources seem like personal commentary and not published research; therefore they are not neutral and thereby not reliable.--Sylvester Millner (talk) 23:43, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

please spe ify so they can be replaced FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 05:19, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

To me most of them appear to be scholarly sources, especially the ones in education FLA-ALP-1 (talk) 05:21, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

@ToBeFree: this discussion is another complaint against Flamalpha's edits. That user tried to mislead you into thinking this is a complaint against my edits. It's not the case at all. If you look at it properly, this is a repeat of my complaint above in the previous discussion before this one. This discussion is not endorsing Flamealpha's edits as the user tried to make you believe. Rather it is a repeating concern against their edits.--Sylvester Millner (talk) 00:00, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Extension needed

@Deepfriedokra: since you're the admin who semi-protected, I think it's a good idea to extend the semi-protection. Because between the time you protected and now, a number of accounts have edit warred. Mostly it was one promotional editor. But regardless of that user, this is an article that's edit warred enough on, so I don't think allowing the semi-protection to end is a good idea. It's better for this article to remain semi-protected for the foreseeable future. Sylvester Millner (talk) 05:40, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

2 months left in current protection -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 08:23, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

@Deepfriedokra:, do you think that's a wise thing? Maybe it should be extended, considering it's being edit warred over enough with the current protection level. I don't think it's safe to be left unprotected.--Sylvester Millner (talk) 17:57, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

@Sylvester Millner: You could request at WP:RFPP -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:29, 15 June 2023 (UTC)