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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

Faggot v. Fag

My sense is that the term "fag" is not taken by my gay friends as being offensive, whereas "faggot" is more often taken as an insult. Do others here have the same experience with the two words, and if so, should that be added into the article? Aristophanes68 (talk) 15:35, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Ditto on the comment above and on the Southpark section below. The least this article could do is mention that popular use of this word is not necessarily derogatory against homosexuals (and in some cases not derogatory at all, see for instance the use of the terms oldfag and newfag on 4chan). --188.220.101.10 (talk) 20:13, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Southpark

Matt and Trey have tried to change the meaning of 'fag'. Prepare for the edit wars. Just source the SP episode from an acceptable source, which will be out tomorrow. Alatari (talk) 03:36, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

The Southpark meaning does not count it's from popular culture and Fag/faggot always mean homosexual or a gay man and it has nothing to do with bikers even if they were making fun of GLADD in that episode. <unsigned>

Definition Fag (Fâg) noun. 1. An Extremely annoying, inconsiderate person most commonly associated with Harley Riders. 2. A person who owns or frequently rides a Harley. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.115.29 (talk) 16:48, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I fully think that the South Park episode is a sign of the times, not just something that Matt and Trey came up with. When someone from the 30 and under age group uses the word fag, it does not always refer to a gay person. When will a non-gay meaning be acceptable? Is there a number of publications that have to reference it? Does it, like in the episode, need to be changed in the dictionary? For at least the next few years "fag" will sometimes be used in reference to gay people, but it doesn't always mean gay. Of course, for that matter, the same thing could be said about the word "gay," but that's a different article. --Rhodesgomer (talk) 21:35, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I think that this should be definetly included in the Cultural Refrence / Popculture section of the article.(84.188.230.136 (talk) 22:12, 6 November 2009 (UTC))

In the South Park Episode "The F Word", the four boys Kyle, Stan, Cartman and Kennie are trying to change the meaning of the word Fag into:

"Fag n. 1. An extremely annoying, inconsiderate person most commonly associated with Harley riders. 2. A person who own or frequently rides a Harley."

In which they eventually succeed. Furthermore, in the episode, a person who is thinking of buying a Harley is considerd Bikecurious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.217.249.28 (talk) 22:05, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I completely agree with the above statement. I amcompletely agains the insults of homosexuals but popular culture views faggot as a term for An extremely annoying, inconsiderate person most commonly associated with Harley riders.--Apples4apples (talk) 06:13, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

an extrimly noying person randomly related to riding a harley —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.191.189.41 (talk) 10:34, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I merged the above two sections on South Park. Also, why is the South park definition not included? This episode has gotten the highest ratings this season. GLAD has come out against it publicly, demonstrating the controversy of redefining it. These points should be significant enough for people to not undo a South Park edit.--Nielad (talk) 23:44, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm seeing it used in on-line in Eve Online or WoW as an insult along the meaning of 'lamer asshole' or 'unaccomplished idiot'. Doesn't seem to mean gay in those uses. Need sources but word usage historians are years behind. Alatari (talk) 00:15, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Why is there STILL no mentioning of the SP episode??? What's wrong with you guys? 84.188.190.190 (talk) 20:40, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

It's silly to me that there is no mention of the South Park episode in this article and it's locked down so nobody can add it. Are we just going to pretend like it didn't happen? Close our eyes, stick our fingers in our ears and say, "LA! LA! LA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"? Clearly this is the most significant reference in pop culture - it mentions the word history and etymology and how the word has CHANGED throughout history. I cannot comprehend why people would be against having pejorative expand meaning beyond a specific subset of people - do you WANT to have derogatory words just for you?

I think we need to add a "Modern Use" subheading and explain that the word may or may not still be a pejorative for "homosexual". Here we could add the South Park definition and relevant arguments.Byerss (talk) 23:02, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I added it myself. -- Banjeboi 01:17, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
What you added is most definitely NOT a neutral representation of the South Park episode's argument and you seem to have missed the point entirely. The boys did not "mistake" the meaning of the word, but instead insist that the meaning has changed - as with all words of all languages - word meanings can and do change to mean whatever we want them to mean. It is humorous to me that the gay community is reacting exactly how they are depicted in the episode - claiming that any other meaning is "wrong" until it is changed in the dictionary. Byerss (talk) 23:25, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
We go by sourcing, do you have a reliable source that they weren't mistaken and insisted the meaning had change? I'm happy to amend it as the sourcing leads. -- Banjeboi 01:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
The episode itself is the source. All the kids in town had the same definition, and don't understand why the adults are using an archaic one. "Don't you people keep up with today's lingo at all?" -- Zsero (talk) 01:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Yep. The episode can be used as a primary source. Luckily Matt and Trey steam full episodes for free on thier website. The episode "The F Word" will be available in full on 12/5/2009. Byerss (talk) 02:49, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Article Locked

I wanted to add a bit in the popular culture section about how members of 4chan often refer to themselves (and everyone else) as fags, but the article is locked so I guess I'll just suggest it here and see what happens. Oogaboogacaveman (talk) 01:39, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

We need a reliable source, besides the group's own postings, that this is a notable thing as well as how it's used and intended. -- Banjeboi 04:40, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

People on Wikipedia like to remove valid content if they don't like something about it, like if they don't like the show South Park. Problem is that 90% of Usage in popular culture section is less notable than the south park episode and so should be removed if south park is removed.

Here's how it reads:

  • Some old movie mentioned it once
  • Some obscure book nobody has heard of mentioned it
  • Some obscure mention of "Barney Fag"
  • Some obscure magazine mentioned it once
  • Somebody actor on Grey's Anatomy insulted another person not on air but off air and nobody's heard of it.
  • Ann Coulter makes a comment nobody's heard of or remembers.

That's basically how it is. About the only thing more relevant are the god hates fags from Fred Phelps. The 4chan stuff is keepable only if a source is found.

The main important point of the south park episode is not the episode's content but as a source for how gay and fag are used as generic insults, which is absent from the Faggot (slang) and gay articles on wikipedia. The only place this is mentioned is in the Think Before You Speak (campaign) article and that campaign is more notable than 100% of the other usage in popular culture stuff. Are you ready for IPv6? (talk) 21:16, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

I think you got it all wrong. The modern meaning of the word fag is:

Fag (făg) n. 1. An extremely annoying, inconsiderate person most commonly associated with Harley riders. 2. A person who owns or frequently rides a Harley.

sources: http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/The_F_Word_(South_Park)

--95.209.51.161 (talk) 14:25, 8 November 2009 (UTC)Respect my authori..tah!

All culture section as well as all content is a work in process. What is blindingly obvious to you may not be so to the other millions of readers and thousands of editors. As this section still needs work it would be more helpful to add content you feel must be there are it will help our readers. Other culture references likely help other readers and yes, many people have never heard of SouthPark - indeed it's their loss but we will have to allow them to come up to speed. -- Banjeboi 00:29, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
I have to assume Matt and Trey are checking in here on the progress of their episodes effects. *waves at the two curmudgeons* Just how powerful have they become? Alatari (talk) 00:38, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

The most important part in there is that gay and faggot are used as common insults. Are you ready for IPv6? (talk) 02:42, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

A reference to South Park maybe necessary but South Park is NOT a WP:RS when it comes to dictionary definitions of words. Quit putting back in the same unacceptable material. Alatari (talk) 06:15, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
The South Park episode should surely be included and we can cite the episode itself. However we should be NPOV in our presenting the content. -- Banjeboi 03:34, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

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"primarily to refer to a gay male"

Are we going to talk about how this is not actually correct? Most people use it, as slang, to describe someone after they've done something overly selfish or just outright vulgar (e.g., that fucking fag (regardless of sexual or gender identity) threw a rock at my window for no reason). Everyone reading the main article it knows it's wrong. So when are we going to change it. This is not an LGBT thing lmao.

Its usage as a slur is well-known. How old are you? If you mean that is socially unacceptable to use the term in reference to homosexuals, then the lede can be changed to reflect its historical usage. Henry Hannon (talk) 00:06, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Canadian Broadcast Standards Council decision

On 2011-01-13, the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council, released the results of a complaint, analysis and decision on the use of the word "faggot" in "Money for Nothing" song. It was decided that the song was unacceptable to play on Canadian radio. The full text of that decision is here: http://www.cbsc.ca/english/decisions/2011/110112.php

Please append information about this decision to the section about "Money for Nothing" pradit pheytian

Update for the Television and newsmedia Section

On January 20th, 2011, TV Ontario's (TVO) The Agenda had a very tasteful and thought provoking discussion on the censorship of the word "faggot" (indeed censorship in general) which can give quite a bit of background on the topic if a reader of the article wishes to watch the podcast. The episode page can be found at: http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/index.cfm?page_id=7&bpn=779937&ts=2011-01-20%2020:00:00.0. The episode is entitled "The New 'F' Word"

Usage by youth

One author's ethnographic work on the topic from a decade ago is not worthy of so much attention as to require its own section. As it stands, this makes it seem as though use of the term "fag" by youth is somehow only a display of masculinity to establish a social pecking order among male children. That might have been generally true at the time of this author's publication (although who knows if it was universally the case even at that time? such is limitation of ethnography and yet another reason to remove or otherwise curtail/qualify this section). The Southpark example from 2009 alone speaks to another reason for usage of the term by youth: to call out something that is irritating or undesirable, without entering an on-its-face gendered meaning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RJ0053 (talk • contribs) 22:32, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

language

strong — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.17.142.234 (talk) 11:43, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Usage against lesbians/WLW

Prior to my edit, there was a sentence in the header stating that "faggot" was commonly used to refer to lesbians or "repellent males". It cited three separate sources, and I took the liberty of sifting through them to see what their consensus was on the word. The first, The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, defines faggot on page 634 as:

Used as a disparaging term for a homosexual man. [Perhaps from faggot, slang variation of FAGOT, bundle, lump, old woman.]

The link in the second reference, Dictionary of American Slang and Colloquial Expressions, doesn't actually link to the book but instead brings you to the Dictionary.com definition of the term, which defines faggot as:

Extremely Disparaging and Offensive. A contemptuous term used to refer to a male homosexual.

I downloaded the PDF of for Dictionary of American Slang and Colloquial Expressions, and it defines faggot as:

A homosexual. (Rude and derogatory)

While it doesn't specify whether or not this means male or female, the example sentence (Don't act like a faggot, Gary) uses a typically male name, and the third definition identifies it as being in reference to "repellent males". However, this is a term seemingly only used in this dictionary. It has no definition or further explanation elsewhere in the book itself or online, so I figured it should be removed.

Moving on to the final reference, Studies in Etymology and Etiology, it says that it identifies it as being in reference to lesbians on page 731. Page 731 reads as follows:

Fleissner's explanation presumably implies that Dickens meant Fag- as an allusion to the derogatory English words fag 'homosexual' and faggot 'homosexual', thus "Fagin = fag + in[vert] or fag[got] + in[vert]."

The only thing that would imply that this term could also be used against lesbians is the fact that the author never explicitly states that the definition is a homosexual man and merely says it means homosexual. However, the character being discussed here, Fagin, is a man, so it can be implied that that's what he means.

All in all, I think it makes the most sense to leave out any mentions of this term being used to refer to WLW or lesbians since little to no sources support this being the case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Benmite (talk • contribs)

Benmite, regarding your removal? See Talk:Faggot (slang)/Archive 2#Linguistics. Back then, in 2013, an editor argued that we should add that the term also refers to lesbians. One of the things I can be seen stating is the following: "Almost all dictionaries and encyclopedias on the term faggot as a slur, most literature on the term faggot as a slur, put significantly more emphasis on the term with regard to boys/men. And yet here you are trying to present it as equally, and even more so, referring to lesbian or bisexual women. The term dyke refers to them significantly more as a slur than faggot does." At some point, because of this editor, the lesbian piece was added to the lead. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 19:35, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
This edit included in my "01:42, 17 November 2013 (UTC)" post in the aforementioned discussion shows that the lead used to state the following: "Alongside its use to refer to homosexual men in particular, it may also be used as a pejorative term for a 'repellent male' or a homosexual of either gender." That was eventually tweaked to remove "a homosexual of either gender" and to simply relay "or to refer to women who are lesbian." Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 19:44, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
Thank you for responding. However, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying that my removal of the edit was unjustified or just letting me know how it got there? This message from the talk page seems to further confirm what I was saying. Benmite (talk) 22:04, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
Benmite, I was letting you know how it got there. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 23:36, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

The one and only external link has been dead for some time. Remove the section altogether or can someone find a link to the article? Thanks.--Surv1v4l1st ▌Talk|Contribs▌ 01:25, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Archive.org has captured the site: [[1]]
We can add it, if we want to keep it. Gehenna1510 (talk) 04:48, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
Roger that. Thanks.--Surv1v4l1st ▌Talk|Contribs▌ 05:00, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

the article was made in 2007

which is why the links are gone. wonderful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.42.32.236 (talk) 05:40, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Broken cite in first paragraph

Hey all, I noticed there's a broken citation in the first paragraph, but not really good enough with citation formatting to know how to fix it myself. Cheers. Michaelk1811 (talk) 03:33, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

genetic sample collector

In some military training schools, a rumor is consistently spread (like an oral tradition) that this word means "gets fags" as in 'collects used cigarette filters' or other wet gene samples. In particular, the military drill associates used cigarette filters with needles and that they all need to be cleaned up before the old general arrives to inspect the premises... and perhaps collect all the samples?

Could this be a slur that non-breeding men use against men who donate or sell their body fluids to straights and lesbians for pregnancies?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.74.203.126 (talk) 04:40, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

US pejorative slang

This is an incredibly American article.

It has a short section detailing 'importation by and usage of the word within the United Kingdom' - except it really just isn't a word used much if at all as a pejorative / homophobic slur in UK culture. It is well-known, from aforementioned US media / cultural imports, but that's the point; it's known as something the Americans say.

British don't really use it, mostly because it's so confusing and weird to do so. We already (as mentioned) use 'faggot' for several innocuous things and it's a stupid-sounding word; 'fag' is universally a cigarette not a gay man in normal conversation... British teens will literally just use the direct call-out "Gay" as a pejorative and standard-strength homophobic slur (what a weird thing to be writing, by the way). If stronger is needed, they'll just add "Fucking" to something like 'queer' for best aggressive articulation of the mouth. 'Faggot' isn't harsh-sounding enough for the way Brits swear and curse.

So, look; this article is about a word which, due to awareness of Americanisms, causes problems from time to time in the UK (notably with censorship of the Christmas song 'Fairytale of new york') but this article should be far more clearly marked as being about a US slang pejorative term, as it's really not that in the UK and i just don't feel that this article reads clearly enough in that manner.

(And if you simply cite sources & examples, then yes of course you're going to very easily find all of the few dozen sensationalist examples in the media where it has been held up as a problem - and you're just going to ignore or miss the huge cultural backdrop of correct context - ie; you will get the wrong impression.) 2a00:23c7:3119:ad01:9de0:d1c8:7b0f:934d (talk) 17:01, 25 December 2022: (UTC)

Requested move 15 April 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Faggot. Faggot moved to Faggot (disambiguation). (closed by non-admin page mover) – MaterialWorks (contribs) 15:17, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Technically "performed by" me per MaterialWorks's WP:RMTR due to protection. DMacks (talk) 16:02, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Faggot (slang) → Faggot (slur) – Slur seems more accurate than slang. While the article does mention that some people have reclaimed the term, it's much more widely perceived as a slur, isn't it? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:51, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

The content of the article seems to be encompassing the term in all its slang uses, not merely as a slur. If you want to reduce the article to the US slur alone, then some content should be removed (to, say, a parent article on its other usages). Which seems to be rather pointless duplication. It seems to be more expedient to just keep it all here, and leave the title broad. Walrasiad (talk) 16:50, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
(edit conflict) We already have faggot which disambiguates the other uses. Mentioning that there are other uses in the UK seems fine as background context. As I said, the UK section mentions that this is used as a pejorative there so saying this is simply a "US slur" is inaccurate. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 16:56, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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