Talk:Ellie (The Last of Us)

Ellie and Joel as PlayStation mascots

I'll give the PlayStation enthusiast being unrealistic, but the statement was "Ellie (and Joel) are considered newer PlayStation mascots - whether that is by the consumers or the critics should not matter because it is all about the reception - how these characters are received, and that's the information that WatchMojo delivers with its votes. TLOU being a new IP (and critically acclaimed), and PlayStation exclusive, gives defining a defining characteristic symbolically to the protagonists of these characters, and it shows with WatchMojo, and probably elsewhere. Osh33m (talk) 04:55, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

If you really want the fact to stay in the article, then you should be more accurate. "Ellie is considered a newer PlayStation mascot"? By who? Does Sony consider her a mascot? Because that's what the sentence seems to be saying. If anything, you should at least mention WatchMojo.com; take a look at the rest of the section for ways to do this. Furthermore, the mention of Joel also being considered a PlayStation mascot is unnecessary on this article. I should also mention the reference; proper formatting goes a long way.

Also, you probably shouldn't have reverted my edit on the page again until a consensus was reached here. That's what the discussion is for, after all. -- Rhain1999 ^{(talk to me)} 05:03, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

OK, I won't revert it again until we reach a consensus here. First off, I don't understand how WatchMojo is considered "unreliable", I don't think it's fair to say that. It's not as if WatchMojo reports misinformation or false data or anything like that. What they do is report popular belief - one being here, that Ellie and Joel for that matter are indeed considered mascots, probably by the fans. If it sounds better to say something like, "According to WatchMojo, Ellie and Joel are largely considered to be newer-age PlayStation mascots" then I'm all for it. I definitely want something like that in the reception section. Osh33m (talk) 05:13, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

I think it might be best to get a third opinion on this. czar, do you have time to throw in a quick thought? -- Rhain1999 ^{(talk to me)} 05:17, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

WatchMojo.com is unreliable because it has no fact-checking or editorial oversight (see its about page). A list of vetted sources is available at WP:VG/RS. Hundreds of unreliable sites have opinions about Ellie, and we don't entertain them. If you found another suitable, secondary, reliable source (preferably via the aforementioned list) that made the mascot claim, this would be a different discussion. – czar 05:22, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

But the only fact I am presenting here is that by popularity, Joel and Ellie are considered Playstation mascots. That doesn't conflict with the source WatchMojo gives, in fact, that is exactly what it is saying. Osh33m (talk) 15:12, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

WatchMojo, as a source for that fact, is not reliable. If no established sources make such a claim, its necessity in the article is unlikely. – czar 04:12, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

"WatchMojo, as a source for that fact, is not reliable" that doesn't make any sense. The fact is that Ellie and Joel are seen as PS mascots largely by the community. That is the fact WatchMojo is presenting, that's all that's being said here. I don't view it as a problem. Osh33m (talk) 20:47, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

WP only uses what sources of quality have presented as fact. Unless stated by a reliable, secondary source, the "fact" is original research and not worth mentioning in the article. Can't put it any simpler. – czar 21:21, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

You don't think the fact that ellie and joel is perceived as PS mascots in their reception is a notable thing to put on the page? Osh33m (talk) 01:07, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

It's not a fact until a WP:VG/RS reliable source says so. – czar 02:26, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Huh? the WP:VG/RS reliable source isn't going to say if "ellie and joel by reception are considered playstation mascots". That is the fact that WatchMojo provides. Osh33m (talk) 00:45, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Czar said "a WP:VG/RS reliable source", not the page in itself. If the fact isn't supported by one of the sources on the list, then it should not be included in the article. -- Rhain1999 ^{(talk to me)} 06:18, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Then perhaps the WP:VG/RS reliable source list isn't perfect. Watchmojo is not an unreliable source for the information they provide. Osh33m (talk) 21:15, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

It isn't. Feel free to suggest an addition on its talk page. I already explained how I found the site to have no reputation for reliability, fact checking, editorial oversight, or approval from peers. For what it's worth, I haven't found another reliable site that has called Ellie a "mascot". I don't think it's a valid statement, and the sources do not corroborate it. – czar 21:26, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Czar. I don't think WatchMojo meets WIkipedia's standard for being reliable either, and even if it was, I think its a undue weight problem because this doesn't seem to be a commonly held viewpoint. Sergecross73 msg me 12:38, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Surname

Should we point out that she's never revealed her surname? Ranze (talk) 03:12, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Only if a reliable, secondary source finds it important. czar 03:19, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

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Source for material

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/last-us-part-ii-ashley-johnson-navigates-grief-guilt-as-ellie-1299101

Assuming this website is considered a reliable source, there is an interview with Ashley Johnson, talking about her experience voicing the character in the new game. _Blake ^{(Talk·Edits)} 17:36, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Ellie resembling Ashley Johnson

@Rhain: I saw the Eurogamer source too, but I don't think it's conclusive.

Druckmann told IGN: "We decided to modify Ellie's model to better reflect Ashley's personality, and also resemble a slightly younger teen more fitting to the story." So Druckmann said it was to reflect Johnson's personality, not her appearance.

Straley said: "We went a little bit younger, and we think that we got a little bit more Ashley inside of there."

I think the Straley quote is open to interpretation, especially in light of Druckmann's statement. Maybe Straley meant appearance, but he might have meant personality. To me, the wording "inside of there" is more consistent with personality.

In either case, as the source is open to interpretation I don't think it's sufficient grounds to plainly state that they changed Ellie to look more like Johnson. Popcornfud (talk) 13:09, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

@Popcornfud: It goes beyond just the quotes from Druckmann and Straley to me—Eurogamer explicitly says that “Straley also pointed out that Ellie's new look more closely resembles the actor that plays her, Ashley Johnson”. The direct quote that follows might be up to interpretation, but that claim from Eurogamer said, to me, that Straley confirmed to them that the change was related to Johnson’s appearance. Whether they’re referring to that quote or one that wasn’t included is unclear. Fair enough if you disagree with my reasoning, though. – Rhain ☔ 14:23, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Rhain, yeah, I did notice Eurogamer said that too, but they're just summarising that same Straley quote, and in my view potentially misinterpreting it. I think that where a source gives a paraphrased version of a quote and the original quote, and they don't necessarily match, we should prioritise the original quote. Note that I'm not saying we should say Ellie's design was not altered to match Johnson's appearance, just that we shouldn't make claims where the sources on that claim are fuzzy. Popcornfud (talk) 15:33, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Probably safer to just base it off the direct quotes, you're right. Probably not wrong either way, but more accurate to avoid the physical appearance comment if we can't see it come straight from the horse's mouth. – Rhain ☔ 22:24, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

"said that", "felt that"...

Shouldn't we avoid repetition in Character design section? −αΣn=1NDi[n][Σj∈C{i}Fji[n − 1]+Fexti[(n^−1)] 22:16, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it reads repetitively. Even if it did, elegant variation (replacing the "said that" with "stated" or whatever) wouldn't be the solution, if that's what you're suggesting. See WP:ELEVAR for my thoughts on that subject. Popcornfud (talk) 22:21, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

I was reading it before I posted this section. I think rewriting the sentences is the best solution. (FYI, I removed "said" from "stated said", which was incorrect.) −αΣn=1NDi[n][Σj∈C{i}Fji[n − 1]+Fexti[(n^−1)] 15:15, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, "stated said" was probably my fuckup, sorry. Popcornfud (talk) 16:15, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Image not displaying properly

The image of the various Ellie concept art pieces doesn't display properly for me, it's cut off. Anyone else? Popcornfud (talk) 11:52, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

@Popcornfud: It's a scrolling image, due to its size. – Rhain ☔ 12:12, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Rhain, wow, that is not obvious to me at all. Partly a problem with the UI, because there's no scrollbar or indication that it's a scrolling image. I would vote to either display the entire image (yeah it's long, but it looks fine to me in preview) or create a truncated version with only two or three iterations. Popcornfud (talk) 12:43, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

@Popcornfud: Must be device-dependent, as I see a scrollbar on my computer but not my mobile. In any case, I think you're right; the additions and changes to the article over the years have given the image more space to work with than when originally added. I've made the change. – Rhain ☔ 12:11, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Rhain, FWIW, when viewed on Chrome on my Macbook, there was no indicator that the image was scrollable. The scrollbar appears AFTER you start scrolling it, but not before, so there's nothing to make you think to try scrolling it. Popcornfud (talk) 11:29, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Weird. I get the scrollbar immediately on Chrome on my Windows. Definitely seems like a device/OS-dependent thing. – Rhain ☔ 12:00, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Surname (2)

In December, Neil Druckmann tweeted that "Ellie's last name is a homage to Ken & Roberta Williams", referring to the surname that was first—and, to date, only—mentioned in the Japanese manual of the original game. The surname remains non-canon, as it is never used in the games, and Druckmann has previously said as much—it remains a name that was only used in early development, and the only thing Druckmann's tweet reveals is where this in-development name originates.

However, there have been several attempts to include the surname based on the tweet, so I wanted to start a discussion here, as pedantic as it may be. Should the surname be added? I'd love to hear your thoughts. – Rhain ☔ 06:36, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Leave it out, it’s not important. If the tweet gets picked up by reliable secondary sources then we can reconsider. Popcornfud (talk) 08:33, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

I suggest placing this info in an efn in some way to at least avoid confusion.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 17:33, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Alleged surname

The wiki says Ellie's surname as "Williams", and gives this tweet from Neil Druckmann as their source. After a bit of Googling, I found several posts on the wiki and Reddit that alleges Ellie's surname was listed in a Japanese game manual. However, I can't find if this game manual actually exists. Should we just leave the name as-is, or should we cite the tweet for her last name? Thanks, VORTEX³⁴²⁷ (Talk!) 06:05, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Even though we know that Williams was intended to be her surname, technically the tweet from Druckmann doesn't state it explicitly, and it's never mentioned in-universe, so I'm inclined to omit it. It’s not like it's especially necessary, anyway, per the discussion above. – Rhain ☔ 06:08, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

1) I can't read.

2) If we find the manual, should we place it in an efn? VORTEX³⁴²⁷ (Talk!) 06:27, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Personally, I don't really think it's worth mentioning at all unless deemed notable by reliable secondary sources, but we can cross that bridge if we ever find the manual, I suppose. – Rhain ☔ 23:43, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 March 2023

Please remove the MASSIVE spoiler from the opening paragraph about Joel's death. All I googled was how old is Ellie and that BS came up automatically. 240B:251:D340:CE00:281C:1B87:8135:5771 (talk) 10:26, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

WP:SPOILERS. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 10:27, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Reference addition request on 15 December 2023

Hi! It seems that ND have confirmed her (previously scrapped) surname, and it is indeed Williams.

Here it is: https://www.ign.com/articles/the-last-of-us-part-2-remaster-confirms-ellies-surname-for-the-first-time-in-game

It’s from the TLOU Pt. 2 remaster for PS5, and I can’t quite add that in yet. If anyone’s available, please add it, thanks! Nicole. Oh, she's elegantly clandestine... ✨ 01:27, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 01:37, 15 December 2023 (UTC)