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Archive 1

Dark elves

In some mythologies there are also dark elves, sometimes known as Drow, which are wicked and evil. Elves are enemies of the goblins.

In what mythologies, outside of AD&D? AD&D is a gaming system, not a source of legitimate folklore. In much actual folklore, there is little distinction between elves, goblins, trolls, and other gremlins; they're all various kinds of little gremlins, or occasionally big gremlins, with (I think) no fixed speciation (as it were), as there is in Tolkien's works or those derivative of them. --LMS

While the term Drow may well be specific to D&D, I am quite sure that dark elves appear in other mythologies.
--71.193.137.200 05:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I have seen references to "dark elves" in books on Norse mythology.As for the name Drow, I have never heard of it. Your are quite correct that elves, goblins, trolls, etc blend together. I suspect that many are regional variants, e.g., trolls may be the Norwegian version of elves. Poor scholarship and migration of peoples have probably confused once-separate traditions. -- hajhouse
There is infact an entire article here on wikipedia devoted to dark elves, and they do feature in the norse mythos.
"Dark elves (Old Norse: Dökkálfar, sometimes called the Svartálfar)"
You can read the article here at Dark elves.--Nyimen 09:50, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

No, it is true that the "races" blend together. However, they are not regional variants. In the old days, a Scandinavian farmer distinguished between a variety of creatures, such as tomte, troll, Nixie, wight, elf, etc. The difference was that they represented different ideas. The Tomte lived at the farm and helped the farmer during the night. The Troll was the danger that lurked in the forest or in the mountain. The Nixie was the danger that dwelt in rivers and lakes, the wights was a general name for different spritits in nature, and the elves were females that could bee seen dancing over bogs, in the evening, when the mist rose. The Huldra was the female that seduced men who walked in the forest, etc. etc. Wiglaf

In norse mythology there also were dark elves called svartalfar. Ausir 20:56, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

In Norse mythology, the elves are regarded as the alfs and dwell in Alfheim, or the realm of the light elves. As recognized in J.R.R. Tolkien's literary masterpiece The Lord of the Rings, the elves are seen as tall and beautiful beings that are far superior to Men in lore, architecture, song, and magic. They too will have apart in Ragnarok as they fight their evil counterparts, the dark elves who dwell in the underground world of Svartalfheim. 

                                           Sal Della Villa- June 4, 2004

Could Elves be a Norse interpretation from the same source that gave the Biblical Angel??

In the book of Genesis in the Old Testament it speaks how fallen angel took wives from the daughters of the sons of man. There is also reference to giants as a result of this. Later there is also reference to angels in the appearance of a most attractive of men that go into the city of Sodom and Gomorrah to get Abram’s relative lot out.

In the Bible there are good Angels who act as messengers and workers of God and there are also fallen Angels that tempt mankind to turn against the ways made by God.

Could good elves and bad elves be a Nordic corruption of tales originating from the same source as the beliefs found in the Middle East? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 (talk) 13:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


Elves and Trolls...

There is a distinct difference between Elves and Trolls.

Elves in Norse Mythology are portrayed as fair to behold, slim and possessed of magical powers. A troll, or Grendel, is a large brutish creature with a love of human flesh.

In folklore Elves are portrayed as Pixies and are still generally better-looking then trolls. Personally, an Elf is Tolkien's representation, as are Trolls or Grendels. The 'Elves' and the shoe-maker are nothing more than pixies.

No offence to anyone, but these different races have only been merged and confused by people telling stories, folk who are not altogether interested in the true source. It's much like Chinese Whispers, where a little of the truth changes with each retelling.

When we're talking about fiction and folklore, every source is a true source. The shoe-maker elves and similar diminutive, industrious elf traditions (Santa's elves come to mind) actually have a lot more to do with Norse elves than English pixies. Likewise, Norse trolls varied between dwarf and giant, mischievous and evil. -- Perey 04:25, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree, elves are nothing like trolls. However, 'a Grendel' isn't a race but a name. Grendel is an *Orcné (Orcnéas being more than one). User: Doctor Hesselius

Why was the distinction between elven and elfen deleted? it explained very well the difference between, the human sized tolkien-esque elves and the small pixie-ish elfs of folklore--Myron Mumbles (talk) 03:34, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

The Drow.

The Drow are chiefly in Dungeons and Dragons and do not appear in any myth or religion. They were based loosely on the concept of a Dark Elf... or Evil Elf.

They live underground, have black skin and white hair, practising torture frequantly.

See Drow for connections to real folklore, both in name and form. -- Perey 16:50, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)


Is an elf with its head between its legs a goblin?

Orcs from may films like lord of the rings are infact dead elfs who have been tortured before death it was the quickets way to get blood firsty warriors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JaMiEGrAnT08 (talk • contribs) 22:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Paolini?

This view is shared by Christopher Paolini "Eragon" who also believed in the Norse elves and has written about elves in his book.

Is this of particular significance? It seems like a poorly-written "me too" inclusion of someone's favoured author. Recommend that someone familiar with Paolini revises it, expands it to explain why Paolini's not just another author who's "written about elves", or deletes it entirely if need be.

Everybody has a prefrance of their"elf." However, I have seen very little where sites where a elf was there and it didn't have green skin, strong, slender body, swift, and magical. However, since these are imaginary, it is pretty hard to tell. The only thing we can acually include in this topic is origin of the word, and, what some of the common "forms" poeple like to think of them as. In short, there can be an infinite amount of "elves" since they live on in our minds, not in the forest. Heck, one can imagine one had a telephone morphed into them for a hand, green skin, lives in the forest, have a computer for a right arm, and call it an elf. Why? Simple. As different as most people think elves are, they all live in forests and are magical and strong, with the exception of the "Drow" elves. They live underground and hate all things living and good, which is why they often kill each other, simply for the fact they hate everything living. If an elf DID exist, you know where the drow went. That's right. At each other's throats with a big blade in their hands.

I have Paolini's eragon right next to me, according to the description of an elf he gave, he gave one of the most common. Green skin, young looking, slender bodies, strong, able to do magic, and, OLD. According to the most common legends, they live hundreds of years. Hundreds. Although, they look over 900 years youngerXD

'Green Skin' is not the most common form of Elven/Elfin appearance and it's not (that I know of) the most common depiction of an Elf. Heathen Germanic Elves/Elfs where certainly not 'Green Skinned' and not necessarily 'slender' (they are described as beautiful but I don't think I have seen their weight mentioned). Which 'legend' states they live 'Hundreds' of years? In Norse Mythology they are much like lesser Vanir and thus are probably immortal. Where does it say that they look 'over 900s younger'....they look infinitely younger probably (being immortal), but it doesn't state this in any genuine legend I have read. Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 15:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Other

Less popular sources talk of a battle between the elves and other mystical creatures. Elves in these stories are often depicted as small defensless beings living in trees. They are forced to this new habitat by loss of battle between the gnomes and pixies. Also in this tale pixies are described as fearsome beings with claws and blades at the tips of there wings.

To the Wiki Commons page. --Kross 06:42, Mar 26, 2005 (UTC)

I just wanted to say that I very much appreciated this article; while there may be room for improvement, as it stands it's an excellent piece of work.


Just A Comment

This article is fantastic. I've begun research on a fantasy world that I am creating for a series of novels, and this article has set me on track as far as Elves are concerned. I have a number of books on Elves set to arrive at a later date for more in-depth research, but this article, again, has set me off with a great start. - Matt S.

I agree; this article really is quite good. Harkenbane 10:57, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree as well, as a lover of all mythology this one of wikipedias best articles on a mythical being.--Myron Mumbles (talk) 03:37, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

The Shoemaker and the Elves

I removed this section from German folklore:

The Brothers Grimm fairy tale The Shoemaker & the Elves is probably the most famous original elf tale. The elves are only one foot tall in this story, naked, and like to work on shoes, as leprechauns do. When the shoemaker rewards their work with little clothes, the elves are so delighted, that they run away and are never seen again. (This tale is echoed in J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter stories: see below.)

These are not Elves, they are Heinzelmännchen, which is translated as "elf" into English. If it absolutely has to be mentioned in the article, it would be more appropriate under English folklore, since that is the only folklore where they are Elves.--Wiglaf 4 July 2005 16:18 (UTC)

May I propose that the paragraph is reinserted at the bottom of the section as:
In the Brothers Grimm fairy tale Der Schuhmacher und die Heinzelmännchen, a group of naked, one foot tall beings called Heinzelmännchen help a shoemaker in his work. When he rewards their work with little clothes, they are so delighted, that they run away and are never seen again. Even though Heinzelmännchen are akin to beings such as kobolds and dwarves, the tale has been translated to English as The Shoemaker & the Elves, and is echoed in J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter stories: see below.)
Moreover, we have the problem with the nisser being described as elves, although if anything, they are descendants from Norse dwarves and landvaettir. As they are the Nordic equivalents to Santa's elves, I believe that they deserve a notice and a link, though, as long as they are not classified as elves. And by the way: where do the Santa-elves come from?
I also found out that H. C. Andersen's fairy tale The Goblin and the Huckster (Danish: Nissen hos Spekhøkeren) in German is Das Heinzelmännchen bei dem Krämer.
Andersen has also written about an alf in The Elf of the Rose (Rosen-Alfen) and about elvere in The Elfin Hill (Elverhøi). Should probably be mentioned. --Salleman 4 July 2005 18:06 (UTC)
Go for it! :)--Wiglaf 4 July 2005 19:55 (UTC)

Removed from Elves at Christmas

I, on my side, removed the following from the Elves at Christmas section:

However, the elf legends are in fact, even older than Saint Nicholas, the bishop on whom Santa Claus was originally based. (One modern fantasy shows Santa's Elves as being the children whom Saint Nicholas resurrected after they had been murdered. By this miracle, they became immortal, never growing older.)

According to the Santa Claus article "In some images of the early 20th century, Santa was depicted as personally making his toys by hand in a small workshop like a craftsman. Eventually, the idea emerged that he had numerous elves responsible for making the toys"

As for the remark in parenthesis, it would be nice to know in what modern fantasy. --Salleman 5 July 2005 00:21 (UTC)

"In Dutch founded New York City, the traditions concerning Sinterklaas (now Santa Claus) continued, even though the black Peters sometime during the 19th century were converted to elves."

Deleted it because it is impossible. Before 1945 the Saint operated solo or with one servant (That's traditionally Dutch), furthermore the name Pete was not given to this figure before 1891. His appearance can be fixed to 1850. Before that he seems to have been a rather hard to identify character. Theodore W.

Revision to Fantasy Elves

Just changed the wording of the introductory paragraph to the fantasy elves, as most of it was redundant (the lengthy sentence on hobs and brownies having already been dealt with in the article). I did remove the reference to fairies, as "fairy" does not exclusively mean "pillywiggin" (insect-winged flower fairy). If you want to revert it, be my guest, but remember that the image of insect-winged fairies used in this article is becoming increasingly different than that of the fairy article, in which many different types of faeries are being mentioned (including, but not limited to, the elf equivalents in western Europe). -Iro

I made some rewording of your edit. I think you deleted some good prose. --Salleman 17:44, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Moving content to subarticles

There is no limit to the production of elves in popular culture. I think this article should focus on traditional elves, and I have created two subarticles for people to add their favourite elves in.--Wiglaf 17:45, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Etymology

I don't know who contributed this bit,

Although there has been debate, the words elf, álf and their relatives almost certainly come from the same Indo-European root *albh as the Latin albus (white).

but it is reasonably correct (it really is disputed, tho').

I have enough material at hand to expanded this by a sentence or two. Essentially, it can be related to a Vedic word for 'divine workman' and perhaps an Old Church Slavonic term for 'worker'. My own private theory is that this was name for a people who brought metal-working into the PIE lands (miners burrowing in the ground, the shiny metal they made (copper, perhaps gold, silver), even the shinyness of the glow of the forge fire.

But this is not the place for an exercise in Indo-European reconstruction. In all of the elf articles, I see there is etymological information, and this might be nicely combined into a daughter article. This article is long as it is. --FourthAve 04:16, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Well the guideline for a good article is that it should contain a section on etymology. It would be a great idea if you could write a subarticle on the etymology of elf and then link to it from the various articles (where you keep a line on the etymology).--Wiglaf 06:59, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Why are the German names originated in the Englisch names? "German: Elb (m) Elbe (f), Elben; Alb (m) "incubus"; [b]from [/b]the English: Elf (m), Elfe (f), Elfen "fairies"." Wouldn´t it make more sense the other way around, because England is an island, which had to be settled from the continent at some point.

The "Elves in popular culture" article

This article really should be re-incorporated back into the main Elf article. Why should a section entitled "Elves in popular culture" be entirely devoted to elves in RPGs?

I've deleted the RPG paragraphs. They're all already in the "Elves in Popular culture" article anyway. I think, rather than looking at modern fantasy fiction or roleplay, a discussion of elves in popular culture should examine how they've manifested in everyday life. I've started a replacement paragraph but it needs work.

Serendipitous 11:11, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Pointed Ears

What about modern mythical creatures based on Elves? Straczynski's Minbari are based on Tolkien's elves, so there's clearly a lineage, and the Vulcans of Star Trek do have a passing elf connection. Spock is even called an "elf" in jest. Of course, Spock's appearance was more consciously drawn from Christian depictions of the devil. The pointed ears of elves seem to appear in very late literature, and the pointed ears seem to be common to all folkloric creatures. According to late folklore tradition, the pointed ears indicate the lack of a soul (as only humans had them). Satan's pointed ears, from the 4th century CE, were probably meant to recall an ass, however, not unlike the cursed King Midas of Hellenic tradition.

There's a lot of discussion about elf size and color, but not much on the ears, which are such a distinctive feature from at least the 19th century on. Someone out there must know where this tradition originates. Do ancient depictions of Norse demigods sport them? (I doubt it.) --- i think tolkiens comment on them having leaf shaped ears is where the pointed ear thing started 63.3.21.1 (talk) 03:23, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Elves, not Christmas

I removed the following passages from the article:

In the Netherlands, Saint Nicholas (Sinterklaas) has traditionally been held to live in Spain and be helped by a Moorish servant called the "Black Pete(r)" (Zwarte Pieten).
In the Nordic countries Santa is instead helped by nisser, dwarflike, bearded wights, dressed in red and gray. Traditionally it was believed that one such being lived on every farm and protected it from mishaps. On Christmas Eve, one must give him a bowl of porridge or rice pudding to reward him for his work. Stories were told of how the nisse might otherwise take his revenge for not getting porridge by killing a goat.
In Iceland, from December 12 until Christmas Eve, the thirteen Yule lads (jólasveinar) visit homes, a lad each day for 13 days, and play tricks on the children, as well as leaving presents for them. They first appeared in the 17th century and are reportedly the sons of Grýla and Leppalúði, two trolls with a taste for human children. However, the tradition is by some thought to be of pre-Christian origin, as it has much in common with the celebrations of Saint Lucy in Norway and Sweden on December 13. [1]

None of these have anything to do with elves, but are about Santa's helpers. While elves are associated with this role in the US, UK and Canada, this does not merit the inclusion of non-elf-related Santa-helpers in other countries.

Peter Isotalo 18:39, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I support the removal.--Wiglaf 19:03, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Though few of us think of Santa as an elf, only as an elf employer, Santa himself has historically breen referred to as an elf. See here and here. He's also referred to as an elf in Dickins's Pickwick Papers and the poem "'Twas the night before Christmas". A Google for "Santa Claus as an elf" returns 59 pages, so it might be an interesting lead to follow up on. — J M Rice 22:17, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
I think links should be made to Nisse/Tomte, since the Santa's elves are mentioned on the same page as elves in Scandinavian culture. I put one such in the scandinavian part, but it might fit better on Santa's Elves -- Allan 00:39, 21 September 2005 (CET)
I read in a book from the 50's that scandanavian children leave porridge for the Julnisse on Christmas eve (it's that, or get pranked, kind of a sprite trick or treat). Aren't the US "elves" a sort of watered down version of Julnisse? After all, American children by tradition leave cookies for "Santa Claus". 13 May 2006

Elvis

In Elvis impersonator, Elves is suggested as a Latin plural for "Elvis impersonator" (!). --Error 15:10, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, this needs peer review!

I just removed the spurious and illegal Lord of the Rings screen shots, and now they have been restored. I don't want to start an edit war, but we've got to stop articles from being taken over by a bunch of inane fans. To you who think having screen shots from copyrighted motion pictures is legal just because there are a lot of them on Wikipedia, think again: it only means that there are a lot of idiots who try to turn articles into Fanzines. The photos are also spurious because they add absolutely nothing to the article. Stop it NOW!

This article has already been tagged for peer review. Keep it up, and it will also be tagged for for Clean-up and NPOV. — J M Rice 21:36, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

You have to work on that attitude of yours, a lot. The same thing could have been said in a much more constructive and positive way, but no one reacts well to insults, diminishing their views and contributions, and threats. While something can be arranged on the matter, you're pushing it the wrong way. Shauri 00:01, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
If you had not done the reverting, I would. Contributors who write like J M Rice are either blocked into politeness or banned. I will leave him a formal warning about no personal attacks.--Wiglaf 17:43, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

JMR's attitude aside, I do agree that it is quite pathetic to have Kate Blanchett in this article's intro, or even on Elves (Middle-earth) (which I notice has no images at all). These are "Peter Jackson's elves" at best; sure, one may be shown Elves (Middle-earth), but I really object to the tendency to treat Jackson as the 'de-facto-standard' of Tolkien illustration. Why can we not replace Blanchett with some PD Preraphaelite painting? dab (ᛏ) 13:49, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Ok, so Blanchett is "Alan Lee's elf", too. There is still a 200 year tradition of illustrating Germanic mythology, so it should be simple enough to come up with something suitable. dab (ᛏ)
OK, I give in. The image has been replaced.--Wiglaf 14:01, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I think the change is for the better, and in fact, I had suggested it myself yesterday at JMR's Talk Page. As I said above, something could be easily arranged on the matter, if proposed properly. I really like the way the article is currently illustrated, both in quality and depiction of its contents. Of course, if any of you find something better, please add it! - Shauri 22:47, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry -- I didn't mean that the "mythological" "tall high-elf" should be replaced by a little "children's tale" elf; I did like the idea conveyed by the Blanchette image, I was just saying that a similar image could be found in 19th century art. I'm not involved in this article anyway, so I'm just giving an outsider's opinion here :) dab (ᛏ) 12:48, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
If I had found such an image, there would be one. I resign from the task of finding a suitable image for this article, and hope someone else will find an image that everyone likes.--Wiglaf 12:54, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Tuatha Dé Danann

One thing I've noticed is that, in the late 20th century, there's been a marked tendency for works of fantasy literature to tie elves not to their Norse origins, but rather to the entirely unrelated Tuatha Dé Danann (aka sidhe) of Celtic folklore. Examples of this include the Shadowrun roleplaying game, Aaron Allston's Doc Sidhe, and Mercedes Lackey's "Elves on the Road" stories. I find this new connection to be very interesting--as well as somewhat counterintuitive; someone coming from reading one of those books might be confused by seeing Celtic folklore go entirely unmentioned in this entry.

I've asked a few people about how this came about and the consensus seems to be that Tolkien is (indirectly) responsible, just because he described his elves in much the same way that Irish lore described the Tuatha Dé Danann, and subsequent writers just sort of picked up on this. It would be nice if someone could research it a little and add a bit to the "Elves in Modern Fantasy" section explaining how this link came into being. --Robotech_Master 18:31, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

When I made my first edit on this article in 2003, it did indeed describe the elves as Celtic myth. I don't think that Tolkien was responsible for this. The confusion is probably based on the fact that elves and Tuatha De Dannan have certain similarities. This resemblance may not be coincidental. The Celtic Kelpie tradition appears to be borrowed from Norse mythology, and it is possible that these traditions are also related. Celtic and Germanic tribes were once in close contact in northern Germany.--Wiglaf 18:59, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Although I find it more likely that Tolkien based his elves off Norse elves rather than the Tuatha Dé Danann, his letters show he was still visiting Ireland regularly as late as 1965. Although he didn't care much for the Irish language. The only elf-like beings (That I know of) resembling Tolkien's elves are the Ljósálfar (Light Elves), or the Tuatha De Danann. The latter is only different in name. For example, the Tuatha De Danann are ageless, heroic, skilled in the arts, and usually beautiful. They can also pass between the Otherworld and this world, much like Tolkien's elves parting from the world to the Undying Lands. In The Lord Of The Rings, when the Fellowship passes in to Lorien, they note how it seemed that time had stopped, though they lingered for a while. This is much like the Irish Tír na nÓg, Land of the Young. It would seem to me that he might have based some of the characteristics of the Elves off of both the Ljósálfar and the Tuatha De Danann, although we'll likely never know. Perhaps, if that speculation is true, that would explain why more and more, Elves are being uprooted from their Norse beginnings.
But, the Tuatha De Danann are to an extent are related to the Elves of Norse mythology. The Norse Elves if I'm right, were lesser deities, to whom one might pray to for say, healing. An example would be Kormaks Saga, Kormak had wounded Thorvard. The witch Thordis advised Thorvard to allow the elves to heal him, he sacrificed a bull at the elf's mound. The Tuatha De Danann were gods in the eyes of the celts. So, they are related to each other in a way, If I have that correct. --PatrickOg 02:55, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

A slight problem

The C-Cube in the Artemis Fowl series is described as being 'obsolete underground, but fifty years ahead of the humans' development schedule' or something fairly similar. This has led me to the conclusion that fairies aren't fifty years ahead of humans, but only the C-Cube is. (Personally, I believe the fairies are around a century ahead of humans technologically) --Aerodotus 17:48, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Mythology and morals

The distinction between "light-elves" and "dark-elves" is similar to the distinction between friend and foe which is generalized into the distinction between good and evil. Ancient myths probably played a role in forming or reinforcing a moral code. The Icelandic sagas show a lot of concern for what is right and wrong. Folklore often gives advice on being wary of strangers. --Jbergquist 19:15, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Elves in modern fantasy bible reference

I have my doubt about describing Tolkien's elves as what man might have become if original sin had not happened. For two reasons:

  • This seems like an allegorical interpretation. Tolkien disliked allegory with a passion, so it is unlikely he meant it that way.
  • There is no reference to original sin (in the biblical sense, though the fall of Numenor is caused by Sauron-fed pride) in Tolkien's work (at least the part that I know) so this sentence brings two things together which are in a different frame of reference.

Anyone disagree, or should I change the sentence? - ovvldc 09:22, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I strongly agree, considering that some of Feanor's early blasphemies come closer to a representation of original sin than anything humans do.

Strongly agree—Tolkien described the temptations (and fall) of the elves as different to humans, not nonexistent. -- Perey 02:31, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Done - ovvldc 23:10, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

How do we know elves are Norse?

Given that the word elf and its cognates in other Germanic languages all go back to Proto-Germanic, what is the evidence for the claim that elves are specifically from Norse mythology as opposed to Germanic mythology? --Pfold 23:08, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

The Norse faith was a sub-branch of the larger Teutonic/Germanic faith, much as say the Catholic faith is a sub-branch of Christianity, so it is more correct to say that they are from Teutonic/Germanic Mythology. Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk)

"Elves in computer games" section.

Here's my rationale for removing it:

  • It was vulnerable (if it had not already succumbed) to a mass of unneeded shoutouts for various games where their elves are unremarkable.
  • It is better done above, in the "Elves in modern fantasy" section; games are not such a special branch of fantasy regarding their treatment of elves to have their own separate heading.

Abednigo 23:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Legolas rather than Elrond?

Wouldn't Legolas be a better representation of a Tolkienesque elf? Legolas is more well known and iconic, and is completely elf rather than half-elf. Borisblue 02:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean the picture from Peter Jackson's adaption? Well, firstly, Elrond was at the time one of the greatest elf-lords in Middle-earth (except for Galadriel and perhaps Celeborn). Legolas was just a Sindarin prince of Mirkwood. What is more, Legolas does not really represent the elves so well as Elrond does, because he represents several misconceptions: Elves (in Tolkien) prefer to live in trees, and elves favor the bow. Elrond is a picture of the elf-lords remaining from the First Age, during the time that the Elves were at their "height", so to speak. Legolas is born into a generation of passing away. Elrond, what is more, though a half-elf by birth, chose to be counted among the elven kindred: therefore he was an elf. --Narfil Palùrfalas 14:00, 18 October 2006 (


Move to Elf (Christmas) reverted

I reverted this since the direction to the new article read:

Elves at Christmas see to the main page:Chirstmas Elives

The new article is a simple cut n paste, including the line "see below" in reference to Tolkien. Something clearly related to this article. I also am not sure that this section should be its own article? mceder (u t c) 15:56, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Warcraft elves

I have no biase against warcraft, but the part about warcraft elves in the modern elves section is a bit too large, going into way too much detail. I don't want to get rid of it completely, and I don't think that it should be gotten rid of completely, just used as an example many modern rogs and movies, games etc. have different races of elves. 24.77.18.71 (talk) 05:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Utterly agree, there's no need to have an overly indepth treatise into Warcraft Elves just slapped in the middle of that section. I've removed it. There's plenty about Warcraft Elves elsewhere. Phunting (talk) 15:18, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Norwegian elves - a personal view.

I must say that I quite enjoyed the article, and not the least because it is so comprehensive. However I have some misgivings, brought up in a family with at least rudimentary beliefs in the elvenpeople, the huldra, the nisse, the hillpeople (haugfolk/underjordiske) and the trolls, of course. A troll is NOT an elf, it is a big magical, stupid evil magical being. They are so large and slow that they blend into the landscape as rocks and even mountains, and they turn into rock if they are outside when the day breaks. The hillpeople are very important, they are probably initially from forefather worship - typically the haugbonde was the first farmer that broke land, and he was either buried in a mound or under the flat rock you cross to enter into the house - the dørhelle. His spirit guarded the house and the people and they sacrified to him. The nisse might be some sort of elf for all that I know, but he really resembles the haugbonde in that he is geographically blund to the farm. He is invisible or looks like a cat with pointy ears. He is sacrified to, and gets a bowl of rice porridge for christmas. He is said to look after the animals and small children, and ward against fire (like a good spirit) but can be very angry and make serious trouble if he is not fed. He is the size of a small boy. This figure has turned into Santa Claus in Scandinavia. The hillpeople as a group are really dangerous and steal children and make people insane. An unbaptized child should wear something made from silver or a cross, or silver should be placed in the crib to ward of the hillpeople. They will steal babies or replace them with their own. The hillpeople would take people into the hills or mountains and maybe let them out again if the churchbells were sounded for them.

The elves are supposed to be even more dangerous. They are much wiser and very strategic and very beautiful and could live anywhere, but, and this is important, it would be by a river - elv - in norwegian. I guess that why they are called elves? Elves are rarely kind and will generally possess or hypnotize people into doing things for them. Both the hillpeople and the elves live in parallel universes. Huldra is a hillpeople figure. When I ws a kid the Huldra was a beautiful and strong woman who could marry a christian man - when she was wed, or the churchbells sounded or she was shot over with a silver bullet then her cow's tail would fall of, and she would become a normal, though unruly woman. Today my kids are taught in school that the huldra has a hollow back, but neither of my grandmothers ever mentioned that. My personal interest is in the elven king. He is a very strange mythological figure, but I've not found much literature about him.

I would like to point out that my comments are solely based on the culture that has been handed down in my family, and not from academic studies. snefryd 00:56, 17. january 2008 (CET) —Preceding comment was added at 00:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

silk and the norse

In the saga of Hrolf Kraki a king named Helgi rapes and impregnates an elf-woman clad in silk who is the most beautiful woman he has ever seen.

The Norse, needless to say, where in north-western europe. Silk was discovered in china. How did the Norse even know about silk? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.152.217.54 (talk) 12:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Comparative Intellect

In the Elves in modern fantasy section, I have added a comment to argue the supposed mental superiority of elves over human beings. I've done this because "intelligence" is a very subjective term, therefore such a bold assertion of "mental superiority" in favor of either elves or human beings could in no way be absolute. While elves covet wisdom more than humans, humans in fantasy settings have traditionally coveted knowledge and science. Compare superior technology of humans to underdeveloped technology of the elves, and I think you'll see why I feel that the statement that elves are "stronger physically and mentally" can be disputed. (I suppose I could also launch into the assertion of elves being more beautiful with "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", but I don't feel nearly so passionate about that as I do intelligence.) Mikhajlovich (talk) 04:20, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Elves Beaned by Soccer Ball?

The paragraph near the end of the article describing an interrupted soccer game as evidence of modern Norse belief in elves is shown as needing a citation. I found only one thing on the Net that is similar at http://www.americanwaymag.com/aw/travel/feature.asp?archive_date=7/1/2005 .

Since the above describes a children's game as opposed to an adult sport team and, again, is only the same sort of anecdotal evidence, I think this assertion should either be removed or a stronger citation be added. Tredzwater (talk) 20:03, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

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pigs

pigs are ‡⅛cjgvvcxcvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvffffffffffffffffffffc —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.193.27.56 (talk) 18:45, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Archive 1

"Reality and perception" segment completely useless

The segment on elves not being objectively real but having a "social" reality is correct but... completely unnecessary. This could be said about almost *any* fictional concept, ie it's not unique to elves. I propose it should be removed Observer31 (talk) 18:07, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree. The concept is so broad it could apply equally as well to aliens or pizza-gate. Social reality may be useful in some scholarly concepts but it has no business directly under the lead. The following lines should be excised:
Where enough people have believed in the reality of elves that those beliefs then had real effects in the world, they can be understood as part of people's worldview, and as a social reality: a thing which, like the exchange value of a dollar bill or the sense of pride stirred up by a national flag, is real because of people's beliefs rather than as an objective reality. 2001:569:F015:5E00:811D:9746:D5D:7376 (talk) 23:40, 24 October 2023 (UTC)
Just to say: maybe you're right about trimming or removing this, but I wound up adding it because we do get comments here on the talk page from people who seem a bit confused about whether elves are real or not. (See under "Williams syndrome", "Fairy?" and "where there actually elves before noas ark".) And elves aren't fiction: fiction is something where the audience is not expected to believe that the content is real, whereas people did believe in the elves of medieval tradition (and in conventional Islamic theology jinn are still accorded the same reality status as God and angels). So elves are perhaps better compared to God, where the question of whether/how God is real is addressed explicitly. Alarichall (talk) 23:06, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Elfs?

Where did the idea that 'elf' can be pluralised as 'elfs' come from? I can't find it in the Oxford English Dictionary, or Dictionary.com.--90.206.198.139 (talk) 15:36, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

I wish the article would try to make clear what myths of the elves come from ordinary people, and what is made up by Snorre. For example I don't think people distinguished between 'light' and 'dark' elves.

The article could also include some etymology on the word elf (I always thought of it as having to do with river, that is, elves = river people). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.126.207.212 (talk) 18:11, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

At one point it did have an extensive etymology that corroborated material from the OED (the traditional PIE derivation, meaning "brilliant white," that seems to work with the descriptions of the elves), but the etymology was (for some reason) mostly removed and the second proposed derivation was left, though it uses weasel words ("some") and is less likely (cognate of "labor," which isn't something associated with the elves until you get to much later in the tradition). I'd insert an etymology, but I don't know how to do footnote citations here. Iro (talk) 16:14, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


This is correct, "elf" is of Anglo-Saxon origin and underwent regular fricative voicing in the plural, just like "wolf" and "leaf". The form "elfs" has never been an accepted form of the plural, as shown here: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=elfs%2Celues%2Celves&year_start=1600&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3

Edited to reflect this Secondus2 (talk) 09:35, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

References?

What is "Hall 2004"? --FinnWiki (talk) 23:24, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

A significant part of the article was lost at this point and afterwards, because nobody paid attention and people just deleted vandalism instead of reverting/undoing the destructive edits. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 22:55, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

"The English word elf is from the Old English ælf or elf, in reference to a midget," In reference to a midget? Where is the reference to that ridiculous idea? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.250.227.148 (talk) 14:58, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

I just stumbled about that claim too. I believe this is vandalism. It was introduced a year ago. The problem was that it was followed by more vandalism, and ClueBot rolled back to the earlier vandalised revision. I still find it disconcerting that this patent nonsense has stood unquestioned for a year. --dab (𒁳) 10:31, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Tolkien & elf ears

"A hallmark of fantasy elves is also their long and pointed ears (a convention begun with a note of Tolkien's that the ears of elves were "leaf-shaped")." I'm sorry, but this is absurd and there's no evidence for it. Shall we list the many many illustrators of Victorian and Edwardian England, and the rest of Europe, who portrayed elves and fairies as having pointed ears? Look at any drawing by Arthur Rackham. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.88.95.123 (talk) 03:12, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. I've seen a few images of Father Christmas/Sinterklass etc depicted as elf like, with pointy ears and such, dating from well before Tolkien's fantasy was published. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurtle (talk • contribs) 22:02, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Coatrack

It's pretty obvious that this page has been hijacked by someone with a Germanic agenda, or someone who has confused etymology with meaning. Also, wikipedia is supposed to be a general encyclopaedia, not a specialist one. The over-focus on Germanic mythology rather than popular, mainstream use of the word is a mistake. More people will know Elf from World of Warcraft, Tolkien and D&D as well as European mythologies. This article should be about Elves and the Elf (germanic mythology) piped off to a different article. Davémon (talk) 15:47, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Davemon, elves are specific to Germanic mythology and do not exist in other "European mythologies". As for the popular cultural references, they all stem from the Germanic concept of elves. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:42, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
There is already an article for the elves that you are talking about, Davemon: Elves in fantasy fiction and games -- Fyrefly (talk) 17:40, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Cheers Fyrefly. What about [[2]]? Doesn't that kind of thing belong somewhere? I'm just thinking that someone who comes across the word 'Elf' probably isn't coming across a folkloric concept, but rather the popular culture one. Bloodofox is wrong, elves in popular culture largely derive from Tolkien, and Tolkien has a few more sources than just the Germanic. --Davémon (talk) 21:11, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm afraid that elves have a cultural and modern literary history far prior to Tolkien's writings. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:17, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

"Germanic Origin"

Someone utterly ignorant about the subject has redone the Elf page. They think the Norse are Germanic and from Germany. No, they're Scandinavian, and they are more related to us Slavs, than to Germans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.98.51.63 (talk) 03:40, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

See Germanic peoples. :bloodofox: (talk) 11:28, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Whatever about that, I have replaced Germanic mythology with Norse mythology, which was in older versions of this article up until July 2006 when it was removed in a (IMHO) clumsy edit by an IP and never replaced. Norse mythology is also a proper Wikipedia article and this edit brings the article into line with the German-language article of the same name. Hohenloh + 10:46, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

While the article is currently very poor and in need of a rewrite (I've tagged it), elves are by every indication beings stemming from Proto-Germanic and thus not an innovation distinct to the Norse. Your placement of Old English and German attestations under "Norse mythology" is outright wrong and has also been removed. :bloodofox: (talk) 15:34, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
The article itself says: "The earliest preserved description of elves comes from Norse mythology. In Old Norse they are called álfar (nominative singular álfr)." I am also relying on the German-language article (which appears to be in a good state). See also the comments in the "Coatrack" section above, and I also agree with Fyrefly's comments below. Hohenloh + 16:26, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Hohenloh, Old Norse is a Germanic language, and elves are attested prior in other Germanic languages. Old Norse records simply provide the most information we have about them. Otherwise, the German article is also pretty poor (even poorer than this one). The "coatrack" section above is plainly ridiculous. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:47, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Rewrite Needed

Recently I've tagged this article for a rewrite. My reasoning is that it's plagued with theory presented as fact, and one look at the reference section will dictate the core of the issue; it wasn't written with academia in hand, but rather as a semi-personal essay. However, fyrael (talk · contribs) has now twice removed the 'rewrite' tag in favor of a 'clean up' tag, stating "the article is far, far too developed already for a total rewrite to be a good idea" which I suppose we should read as 'hey, this article has been this way a long time, why bother?', despite the obvious issues. Unfortunate and counter-productive as it is, this sort of thing seems to happen when attempting to solicit others to produce a rewrite, and, as a result, I guess I'll have to leave the issue alone until I am able to sit down and produce a rewrite myself. :bloodofox: (talk) 14:10, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, as counter-productive and arrogant as you being so WP:UNCIVIL is, I'll respond anyway. I very obviously didn't mean "this article has been this way a long time, why bother?" I meant exactly what I said: that the article is much too developed for a rewrite to be necessary. The article is well-structured for the most part and has a moderate amount of reliable sources for its length. In my opinion, only mild clean up is needed and a complete rewrite would only slow down the progress toward a better article status. Let's see what consensus decides. -- Fyrefly (talk) 14:54, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Fyrael, if this is your idea of "developed", I'd hate to see your term papers—"has a moderate amount of reliable sources for its length"? Seriously? As the issues are clearly not glaring to you, I can only assume that you're not familiar with the material this article covers. This article suffers from the same issues as the dwarf and troll articles did before their rewrites; opinion and theory presented as fact from the very first lines, resulting in a severe entanglement throughoiut of theories preferred by the authors. This, combined with poor referencing, results in the need for a total rewrite. For example, while Hall's work is first-rate, his conclusions need to be presented separately from the attestations. "Consensus" is not needed for a rewrite of an article in a poor state, and it's simply a matter of someone making the time. :bloodofox: (talk) 16:33, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Let's see how many times I have to link WP:UNCIVIL before you read it and decide to stop being a child with these sad attempts at personal insults. Now, there are certainly sections with little-to-no citations used and need serious attention, but other sections are fairly well-sourced and I still think the overall structure is fine. We would probably be better off labelling individual sections with more specific clean-up tags since they have varying problems. -- Fyrefly (talk) 18:51, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
The structure isn't the problem. It's the content. And each section has the same set of problems, whether it's poor referencing or theory-as-fact. Look, I can see you're taking this personally, but I obviously don't know you, so don't. It is not a problem that you're not familiar enough with this material to have immediately spotted these issues, but your defense of the issues when they're brought up is. I will not accept defense of the state of this article as it stands on the grounds of being "developed", and nor should you if you are at all concerned about where you get your information from. I will prepare a rewrite as time permits. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:15, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm aware that you don't know me, which is what makes the attempts at personal insult so childish. I'm also plenty familiar with the material and my defense of the content is completely valid, but your arrogance has blinded you to any redeeming qualities of the article. I wish you good luck with the rewrite and I hope that at as much of it as possible is valuable enough for us to include in the article. -- Fyrefly (talk) 20:51, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I do agree with Bloodofox (talk · contribs) a rewrite is in order the above exchange starts with a difference of opinion whether a rewrite tag is in order but degrades into bickering instead of substantive discussion, so I'll start a new thread on rewrites and my own assessments. --Kiyoweap (talk) 05:52, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Shakespeare

The article refers to "his elves are almost as small as insects", yet Titania is obviously large enough to say to Bottom "Sleep thou, and I will wind thee in my arms". Any comments? Peridon (talk) 19:35, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree. This conclusion is based on a misguided cherry-picking of passages. It also appears to be a Wikipedian's conclusion, which makes it WP:SYNTH. --dab (𒁳) 10:27, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

I think this information about Elves should be allowed on this page.

Elves (singular elf) love to tell stories. I'll bet you didn't know that about elves. There's probably a lot of things you didn't know about elves. Another interesting, uh, "elfism", is that there are only three jobs available to an elf. The first is making shoes at night while the old cobbler sleeps. You can bake cookies in a tree, but as you can imagine, it's dangerous having an oven in an oak tree during the dry season. But the third job, some call it, "the Show" or "the Big Dance," it's the profession that every elf aspires to. And that is to build toys in Santa's workshop.

Elves try to stick to the four main food groups: Candy, candy canes, candy corn, and syrup.

The Code of the Elves: 1. Treat everyday like Christmas. 2. There's room for everyone on the nice list. 3. The best way to spread Christmas cheer is singing loud for all to hear.

Elves generally love to make ginger bread houses, and eat cookie dough, and go ice skating, and even hold hands. They also love singing Christmas carols, and anything with Maple Syrup or sugar in it. They are great friends, and love to make toys. Most elves make over a thousand toys a day, but if they don't reach their quota, it doesn't mean they're cotton-headed ninny muggins, it just means that they might be better at doing other things, like changing the smoke detector batteries or bringing the Elf Choir down a whole octave (in a good way!). Every elf is important and unique, and one day might even help save Christmas! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.209.230.205 (talk) 00:35, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

What is the point of this? Are you attempting to demonstrate the eloquence of your writing skills for personal gratification?
In order to avoid clutter on this free, public, and essential informational service.... which is maintained through the hard work and many hours of volunteers... please only post relevant information that is useful to the article in question. Anything else (other than moderating comments) is simply sabotage. 2604:3D09:447D:8D00:C93:4A22:CAF2:98C4 (talk) 08:16, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

References not Corresponding to Citations

If this were a stub, then general references might be appropriate. However, as this is a fully-referenced article that is fairly mature, we need to be careful about using general references, especially references to recent books, because doing so is likely to appear promotional in nature. It has been suggested that the general references currently in the article "might" have been used in the base research for the article, but if such a connection is not obvious, then the reference should be part of an in-line citation, or it should be removed. Definitive works on Elves which are not cited should appear in a "Further Reading" or "External Links" section of this article (as previously suggested). Please feel free to make these edits. Otherwise, at least two of the four general references in this article should be removed completely. Thanks. Ebikeguy (talk) 23:33, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

If Alaric Hall's print publications – especially his 2004 doctoral thesis – are not highly relevant to this article, then what is? Sure, they are (relatively) recent, they are available on the web, but that speaks in favour of them, rather than against them: they are up-to-date, peer-reviewed, scholarly book sources, ffs. Why should we limit ourselves to outdated publications going as far back as Grimm when we have so much better sources to add? (In addition, after all, new research can and will supplant sources as old as Grimm.) Why should we exclude Hall 2004? Just because of the fear that we might "promote" a modern, yes, even recent scholar specialising in the subject? That's so incredibly silly that it defies belief.
Yes, he has a Wikipedia account, yes, he has edited articles, but he hasn't done that to promote himself – it wasn't him who added his stuff; but even if he had, so what? It's not against the rules, it doesn't add undue importance – it is already important! – and it helps Wikipedia. This knee-jerk reflex against "self-promotion" doesn't exactly help the problem Wikipedia has attracting experts. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:51, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
Hall's work is absolutely appropriate for this article, and when the rewrite comes, it should be well emphasized for exactly what it is; a modern scholarly work extensively tackling the subject. If nobody beats me to it, it's only a matter of time before I rewrite this article. As of now, however, reader beware—this article is currently crap. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:57, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 24 January 2012

The elf was also popularized by Enid Blyton's many children's stories. Elves, and other such magical creatures namely pixies, brownies, goblins and so forth, are often portrayed as tiny people, with pointy ears and brown skin, that live in tree holes or tree houses. Very often, Enid Blyton's stories involve children meeting and befriending these creatures, visiting them forthe very typically British meal, 'tea'. Dearboysandbas (talk) 16:46, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


Dearboysandbas (talk) 16:46, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. — Abhishek  Talk 13:55, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Name?

The "Name" heading is confusing (dumbed-down?). It should be "Etymology" of course. Oh, and W-i-k-i-p-e-d-i-a s-u-c-k-s. Thank you. 20:40, 25 September 2012 (UTC)20:40, 25 September 2012 (UTC)20:40, 25 September 2012 (UTC)20:40, 25 September 2012 (UTC)20:40, 25 September 2012 (UTC)20:40, 25 September 2012 (UTC)20:40, 25 September 2012 (UTC)~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.155.116.227 (talk)

Superstition section

I took a stab at doing a cleanup of this article, over a series of edits. I will post several topics to explain the thrust of things I did.
First off, I wanted to confine /*Mythology*/ section to content about the "race of elves" and segregate out material to do with "spirit" that cause diseases and nightmares into a the new /*Superstition*/ section. The superstitions date to Anglo-Saxon and Middle High German periods so moving them to /*Modern folklore*/ section would not be appropriate. Requesting feedback on this sectioning off. Also I tentatively subtitled /*Mythology*/ section as: "The elf as a race of supernatural beings" and /*Superstition*/ as "The elf as a spirit playing tricks", though I'm not too comfortable with the wordings, so I welcome anyone to improve them. --Kiyoweap (talk) 12:12, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Before attempting any such division, which can easily stray into WP:OR territory, I recommend taking Alaric Hall's elf-related work in hand. This is by no means a simply topic. :bloodofox: (talk) 15:24, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
I don't consider it a personal subjective judgment or WP:OR to classify mentions mythological and heroic literature under /*Mythology*/ and moving out mentions in medical books/leechbooks. It also makes no sense to class superstitions (e.g. the alp-nightmare) under /*Mythology*/ if the citation goes back to the Middle Ages, but under /*Modern folklore*/ if it was from a later folk-tale. Obviously, the new section I tentatively called /*Superstition*/ awaits to be consolidated an merged with the section.
One reason for the split is to avoid being misled into thinking Medieval England and the German alp are just like the Norse alfar, when in fact you cannot safely ascribe attributes like dwelling in Alfheim or occurring in light and dark varieties to them. Some contributor inserted the sentence: 'Middle High German tradition separates the elbe "elves" from getwerc "dwarf", which was especially misleading in that way.
A. Hall's thesis/book is useful for being comprehensive but is obviously iconoclastic; his speculations detract from other commentators, and I am against giving his opinion or his schema for organizing information any WP:UNDUE weight. --Kiyoweap (talk) 08:23, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
I should also point out that you're going to run into problems with the use of "superstition". This is not a neutral term. What you should be using is something like "folk belief" or more specific terms. :bloodofox: (talk) 15:05, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I've since continued with my edits, and there is no longer a Superstition section, as I opted to incorporate into Folklore. Having checked up on sources, I found the presentation of information misleading or wrong in many cases, though it would be too onerous for me to log everything I found and corrected in the talk page here. But by way of illustration, I could point out a number of still outstanding issues still the Norse mythology and Scandinavian folklore areas, which I didn't tamper with too much.

  • I don't feel the mention of "dark elves" need to be repeated in triplicate to drive home the point, and can be deferred to the extant dark elf articles (Dökkálfar and Svartálfar).
  • It is incorrect to suggest that the elf appears in Norna-Gests þáttr. I suspect someone just read e.g. Motz, Lotte (1973). "Of Elves and Dwarves" (pdf). Arv:Tidskrift för Nordisk Folkminnesforskning. 29–30. (p.97) without citing her and came to the wrong conclusion. Olaf THINKS it might be an elf, but turns out to be Norna-gest.
  • I don't think it is fair characterization to say Olaf Geirstad-Elf was an elf. You can read snippets of Davidson's summary in her "The Road to Hel," and this Olaf is a draugr if anything.
  • Also there should be caveats written about álfablót, as Motz's paper above has done. "Undoubtedly it had one time been intended for the elves, but we do not know to which of their manifestations." She suggests in later times, álf might have only remained in name only, and the in the ritual "figure designated by it" (i.e. elves) , "had become eclipsed" (by e.g. Odin)
  • The "Elf-cross" (illustrated by a pentagram in the Scandinavian folklore section) is not strictly Scandinavian, since when look at the drude article, you learn that the "Drudenfuss" or "Drudenkreuz" is pretty much the same thing. --Kiyoweap (talk) 09:23, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The Hrafnagaldr Óðins is misquoted as saying "the álfar have skill"; that is not the gist of what it says and is misleadingly to readers. It actually says "elves understand" (Lassen tr. pdf). Grimm, who is supposedly cited here, says so too: ""älfar verstehen", and Stallybrass's translation of Grimm actually concurs as well: "âlfar have skill (understanding)" -- note the parenthesis.
  • The quote from Fjölsvinnsmál that states Loki is an elf (álfr) is questionable as well. Grimm used Rask's edition, p.110b, str. 35 "liþski alfr Loki." However, Sophus Bugge's critical edition, p.349, strophe 34 has "Liðskjálfr, Loki". The compound word seems to mean "limb-shiverer" or somesuch.--Kiyoweap (talk) 00:25, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
  • File:King Olaf and the Little People.jpg does not belong and needs to be deleted. Firstly, the story is about Olaf the Saint and not Olaf Geirstad-Alf, even though it is mistakenly featured in the article about the latter. Secondly, in the Danish ballad, Hellig-Olavs Væddefart DgF 50 which is the original source, they are not called "elves" but "trolls so small" ("De seyled offuer den Feld saa blaa; vd da løbe de Trolde saa smaa").--Kiyoweap (talk) 07:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Grimm's tripartite division of elves

I should have announced my intentions earlier, but I had taken out the following passage summarizing Grimm's view, contributed the edit on 10:23, 24 October 2009 by User:Dbachman:

The etymology connecting *alboz with albus "white" suggests an original dichotomy of "white" vs. "black" genii, corresponding to the elves vs. the dwarves which was subsequently confused.1 Thus the elves proper were named ljósálfar "light elves", contrasting with døckálfar "dark elves".2

which I thought this needed editing. For one "original dichotomy" might conflict with Grimm saying the original alb was a "light, white, good spirit" ("albs mag also ursprünglich einen lichten, weissen, guten geist" (Grimm DM, Bd. 1, S. 413, In English translation "meant first of all" is used instead of "originally"). The other thing is the way the sentences run together, it cane easily be read as if dwarfs and dark elves are the same, but it needed to be clarified that Grimm insisted on the distinction between dwarfs and dark elves, because they are mentioned side-by-side in Hrafnagaldr Óðins (Rask's edition, "Saem 92b"). The block above was moved to the Dökkálfar and Ljósálfar page, and after edits now reads as follows:

Grimm surmised that the Germanic elf was probably a "light-colored, white, good spirit" while the dwarfs may have been conceived as "black spirits" by relative comparison. But the "two classes of creatures were getting confounded" (presumably as the elves were becoming increasingly demonized due to Christianization), and there arose a need to coin the term "light-elf" (ljósálfar) to refer to the "elves proper".1a(a Stallybrass's actual phrasing in his translation was "recourse was had to composition, and the elves proper were named liosâlfar" (Vol. 2, p.444) for Grimm's "'half man durch zusammen-setzung und nannte die eigentlichen âlfar liosâlfar." Grimm 1844, Bd. 1, S.413

Well, it used to read the "original elf (German:alb)" but is now --> "Germanic elf". Most of Grimm on the light-elves and black-elves should be moved to the spinoff article, what do you think? I'm not finding any modern scholars who endorse Grimm's tripartite division. Ironically, I was led through Wilkin's article here or here into thinking Tom Shippey may be a supporter, but he absolutely lambasted Grimm, saying of him: "his solution was significantly worse than Grundtvig’s, vague and indecisive." --Kiyoweap (talk) 11:19, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Saga section added

In my series of edits on 9 October 2013, much of it was just rearranging the placement of paragraphs by previous editors for organizational purposes. Scholars discuss the "elf" and "elf-sacrifice" (álfablót) mentioned in these sagas in different context from the mythological elf. Hence a new section /*Sagas*/ to house them.

  • Olaf Geirstad-Elf - This is in a version of St. Olaf's saga, discussed in Vigfusson & Powell's Corpus Poeticum Boreale under the "Ancestral Worship" section, and by H. R. Ellis Davidson's Road to Hel under "Cult of the Dead" chapter. I have updated the target article somewhat as to this regard.
  • The poem Austrfaravísur by Sigvat the Skald is quoted in a version of St. Olaf's saga also. I'm not sure if him being a missionary for the king is quite the correct characterization, that might require fact-checking.
  • Norna-Gests þáttr is a tale from the Longest Saga of Olaf Trygvasson (Óláfs saga Tryggvasonar en mesta). I edited the article portion in regards to this tale. Norna-gest is mistaken for an elf or an andi "spirit". Cf. Anne Holtsmark's study of the Snorra Edda that explains how the Christian andlengr heaven, thorough association with andi might have led to Snorri's Andlang
  • There was reference to Álfheimr (region) which needed reattributing, and it was moved to the saga section. Davidson's lead-in to her quoting the passage from the ThV saga is: "By the time of the Fornaldar Sögur however Álfheim has become a country on the border-line of mythology, as when for example we are told in Þorsteins saga Víkingssonar (I)" (preview p.113). Her inference is, this was a geographical area with a later accretion of legend around it.--Kiyoweap (talk) 13:02, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Keebler

Keebler Cookie company should get a mention, if for no other reason than to show that Santa isn't the only employer of elves. Also, does Willy Wonka employ elves? --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 18:41, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Major Cleanup, May 1st-3rd 2014

May 1st: I'm about to start attempting a major cleanup of this article. I wrote one of the major scholarly studies on this subject, published in 2007: Elves in Anglo-Saxon England: Matters of Belief, Health, Gender and Identity, Anglo-Saxon Studies, 8 (Woodbridge: Boydell, 2007), currently available at http://www.lib gen.net/view.php?id=383363. I've mostly steered clear of this article since then for fear of overemphasising my own work, but hopefully now enough time has elapsed that I can intervene and offer a well balanced cleanup. I have written an entry for a print encyclopedia on the subject, for example ('Elves', in The Ashgate Encyclopedia of Literary and Cinematic Monsters, ed. by Jeffrey A. Weinstock (forthcoming): http://www.alarichall.org.uk/ashgate_encyclopedia_elves.pdf). If people could bear with me as I work through the article over the next day or two I would be grateful! I'll post an update here when I'm done about what I think might need more work. Alarichall (talk) 16:25, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Excellent. It's good to have you here, Alaric. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:34, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, Bloodofox! Alarichall (talk) 18:42, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Impressive work, Alaric! Haukur (talk) 15:37, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Ta! Alarichall (talk) 20:40, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

May 3rd: Okay, I'm done! I'll no doubt keep haunting the page a bit finding typos and fiddling about, but for what it's worth, my major cleanup is complete. And the page is down from 73,349 bytes to 66,636 bytes, so although it's still vast, at least it's shorter! Lingering issues:

  • I've cited my own book a lot, just because it covers a lot of stuff and I know my way around it, but hopefully not in ways that overemphasise my own arguments, but rather in ways which direct the reader to my summaries of scholarship and debates. I want to come back when I have time and the books handy and put in more references to Shippey 2005, Gunnell 2007, Purkiss 2000, and Jeremy Harte's fairies book. Together these afford a good, up to date set of opinions on the current state of scholarship.
  • I'm particularly weak on the medieval German material, so I've relied a lot on Cyril Edwards, ‘Heinrich von Morungen and the Fairy-Mistress Theme’, in Celtic and Germanic Themes in European Literature, ed. by Neil Thomas (Lewiston, N. Y.: Mellen, 1994), pp. 13–30. More learned people might want to check what I did here.
  • I didn't attempt a thoroughgoing revision of the modern Scandinavian stuff, which is still a bit of a hotch-potch. Could be worse though!
  • There's clearly a case for turning some of the sections here into separate articles and having just one much shorter summary on elves as a launch pad. The Alp section here is probably better in a lot of ways than the main article Alp (folklore). I'd welcome opinions on what would be best to do, but for now I've just left Elf as one mega-entry. Alarichall (talk) 20:40, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Congratulations on your major revision here. It's good work. DBaK (talk) 15:51, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
Thanks DBaK! I appreciate it. Alarichall (talk) 22:54, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Deletions and Reverts by Haldrik

I see that Haldrik (talk · contribs) has come out of the woodwork again and up to his usual pattern. This time he seems to be refactoring sourced text and removing portions at whim and without explanation. Last time we saw him he was around August of 2013, where he was attempting to impose all sorts of "dwarfs are medieval vampires" stuff on the dwarf article. After all sorts of abuse from Haldrik, this eventually got him [blocked for 32 hours] and we saw no more of him. I recommend an administration step in or other users simply revert him when he can't abide by policy. :bloodofox: (talk) 00:13, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Hello Haldrik (talk · contribs)! I haven't e-met you before. I've been trying to see what kinds of edits you made to the article and form my own view on how helpful they were, but it's quite hard because you don't provide summaries of the changes you make in the 'edit summary' box. I'd be grateful if you could do this for any future edits so we can work more effectively together. Thanks! Alarichall (talk) 15:10, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Mrenh Gongveal

I just created a Wiki for Mrenh Gongveal [ Khmer: ម្រេញគង្វាល ]. They are the Elves of Cambodia, and might make an interesting addition to this Elf page.
https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Mrenh_Gongveal
EarthMonkeyCreative (talk) 02:47, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

No reliable sources for this. Article creator used a self-published book and at least one source that doesn't even mention these. Doug Weller (talk) 11:29, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
I've improved the referencing at Mrenh kongveal a bit and included in the article. Alarichall (talk) 14:03, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

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Scottish 'elves'

As the article notes, by the early modern period an 'elf' is just another word for a fairy, ghost, etc. Scottish sources that talk of 'elves' are written in English, the language of the church and the towns, but they are often just translating some Gaelic term (usually sith). If anything, using Scottish evidence just confuses the topic--though perhaps rightly so. I.e., it tells you about the history of the English word, but not really about the Germanic elf, at least any more than use of 'faun' tells you about the classical concept. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 04:06, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Wow 😮 102.90.65.129 (talk) 13:34, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Clarification on "Now Agreeed Upon" in the Norse section

I'll be brief: I am having trouble to locate the listed sources for reference point number 23, "For a long time, views about elves in Old Norse mythology were defined by Snorri Sturluson's Prose Edda, which talks about svartálfar, dökkálfar and ljósálfar. However, these words are only attested in the Prose Edda and texts based on it, and it is now agreed that they reflect traditions of dwarves, demons, and angels, partly showing Snorri's 'paganisation' of a Christian cosmology learned from the Elucidarius.[23]" - the attested sources are Shippey 2005, 180-81; Hall 2007, 23-26; Gunnell 2007, 127-28; Tolley 2009, I 220 - all of which I am having issues with finding. Could we at least have something quoted from any of these that corroboartes the statement? Particulaury since the line, "The consensus of modern scholarship is that Snorri’s elves are based on angels and demons of Christian cosmology" in the explanations makes it clear that we now have some evidence that this is so - and I would dearly like to see it cited. Hackeru (talk) 17:48, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

small little — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.181.12.26 (talk) 16:27, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Apologies for not noticing this earlier. As you may have noticed by now, if you look up Hall 2007 and Gunnell 2007 in the article bibliography, you'll find links to open-access texts of those publications. Alarichall (talk) 14:02, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Williams syndrome

Williams syndrome could be added — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.95.7.104 (talk) 14:26, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

To add: Williams syndrome is a genetic disorder that causes the individual to appear "elf-like": IE, long faces and pointy ears. As per the Williams syndrome article: "The adjective "elfin" may have originated to describe the facial features of people with Williams syndrome; before Williams syndrome's scientific cause was understood, people believed that individuals with the syndrome, who have exceptionally charming and kind personalities, had extraordinary, even magical, powers. This has been proposed to be the origin of the folklore of elves, fairies and other forms of the 'good people' or 'wee folk' present in English folklore.[57]"

I think Williams syndrome should be discussed further as a theoretical basis for why individuals believed in the existence of elves.

Semi-protected edit request on 1 September 2018

Would be informative to have some pointers to Williams syndrome - https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Williams_syndrome#Society_and_culture. Sssemil (talk) 17:31, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Good point. I'm working on it! Alarichall (talk) 18:27, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
Here you go, @Sssemil: Elf#Demythologising_elves_as_people_with_illness_or_disability. How does that look? Alarichall (talk) 19:57, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
 Already done Alarichall (talk · contribs) seems to have this well in hand. NiciVampireHeart 09:33, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
Very nice 👌 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sssemil (talk • contribs) 13:36, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 January 2019

Immediately before the phrase "Thus in the US, Canada, UK, and Ireland" is the letter "e" with a citation to Hall (2014). Please remove the "e" and the citation, since we don't need a stray "e" there. 208.95.51.53 (talk) 14:54, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

 Done – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:40, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 February 2019

The caption under the image of the Beowulf manuscript mistranscribes a Tironian note et (⁊) as an ampersand (&). Could this please be corrected where the Tironian et replaces the ampersand. 2602:30A:2E70:D020:CC8A:6A96:FE2:9C9 (talk) 23:45, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Done. Alarichall (talk) 10:26, 7 February 2019 (UTC)


Semi-protected edit request on 9 September 2022

Change Medieavl to Medieval Polygnotus (talk) 07:57, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

 Done Typo fixed. see revision here A diehard editor (talk | edits) 10:06, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Semi-protected edit request on 13 January 2023

Under the section "Reality and perception":

"From a scientific viewpoint, elves are not considered objectively real. However, elves have in many times and places been believed to be real beings. Where enough people have believed in the reality of elves that those beliefs then had real effects in the world, they can be understood as part of people's worldview, and as a social reality: a thing which, like the exchange value of a dollar bill or the sense of pride stirred up by a national flag, is real because of people's beliefs rather than as an objective reality."

"Not considered" is a weasel word that imbues doubt and false balance to the factual statement that elves aren't real, and implies that they may be real but we don't wish to believe so. Likewise, the following use of "however," intentionally lends additional doubt to that claim. Unless there is factual, scientific evidence that elves may have existed, leave these out and simply write it as: "...elves are not objectively real. Elves have in..."

Giving credence by buying into the myth of elves does not impart realism, not even in the majority of minds participating in the lore. At some level, we still know that we are playing pretend in a shared fantasy. The whole sentence evoking Social Reality is a mischaracterization of that concept, which the original editor seems to have grossly misunderstood. We're better off just striking that whole sentence out, replacing it with something else. 2601:152:4F80:5B60:DC93:FD4D:22B4:7CB1 (talk) 15:18, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lemonaka (talk) 17:27, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
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