Jump to content

Talk:Danilo Cavalcante

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


See also

[edit]

Just out of curiosity, why is the see also section there (and on the linked article too, I guess)? The two articles seem to have no relation. Maximus Pinpoint (talk) 14:33, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why did you remove Lázaro Barbosa de Sousa? These cases are not directly related, but their cinematographic escapes are comparable. He is being called "novo Lazaro" by many reliable sources: R7, Metropoles] 187.101.164.83 (talk) 15:55, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't - search my username in the log and I never touched it. I'm trying to find who did, however, to revert it. Maximus Pinpoint (talk) 16:27, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Name

[edit]

The article is named "Danilo Cavalcante"; however, the overwhelming majority of reliable English-language sources use the "Danelo" spelling, with most sources that are using the "Danilo" spelling being Portuguese-language. Given that, per WP:UCRN, shouldn't the "Danelo" spelling be used for the article title? P1(talk / contributions) 15:34, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Should a fake name be used instead of his real name? 2804:388:411A:9335:1:0:2DBB:8641 (talk) 15:39, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, the US' press has written his name wrongly. The correct way is "Danilo". Kascyo hey 16:02, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We go by common usage in reliable sources on Wikipedia, not by what is “correct”. Until reliable English language sources use Danilo, we need to reflect their usage: Danelo. —В²C ☎ 16:27, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Born2cycle Despite the usage of "Danelo" by some sources, Brazilian newspapers use his original name and they should be considered. Kascyo hey 18:54, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Kascyo: The policy at WP:UCRN specifically notes that the name used by "a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources" should be used. The Brazilian newspapers using the "Danilo" spelling are primarily Portuguese-language. P1(talk / contributions) 19:00, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
can we not just have the American spelling as the page name and then redirect “Danilo Cavalcante” to this page as well? I understand the idea of wanting to keep the accurate Brazilian spelling however the vast majority of people who followed this case or knew anything about it only ever saw his name as “Danelo” in all official documents and news reports. Parisfink (talk) 05:42, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is one of the silliest arguments I've ever seen on Wikipeia. His legal first name is Danilo not Danelo. A redirect already exists to account for this error. We shouldn't blindly follow a WP policy when it makes no sense for the situation. What we should do instead is to change the policy to deal with situations such as this. Lechonero (talk) 15:17, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You're right. It is flabbergasting to see users from a self-entitled encyclopedia, which should attempt to be reliable and accurate, defending an obvious misspelling like this. 187.101.164.83 (talk) 15:44, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah it might make sense if a different writing system is used like Cyrillic because there are various ways and standards to transcribe and transliterate them into the Latin alphabet, but for a name that is already written in the same writing system it really doesn't make sense to just copy a misspelling just because newspapers didn't bother to get the name right. Nakonana (talk) 22:25, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 13 September 2023

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. It is clear that the original spelling used by a number of sources reflected an error made by the authorities, and that error has now been rectified both by those authorities and those reporting on the case. I do not see any point in leaving this request open any longer, especially given some of the unnecessary comments. Black Kite (talk) 07:25, 18 September 2023 (UTC) Black Kite (talk) 07:25, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Danilo Cavalcante → Danelo Cavalcante – WP:COMMONNAME. Virtually all reliable English sources are using the “e“ spelling. That “i” might be “correct” is irrelevant. В²C ☎ 16:46, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Washington Post also explains that US press adopted "Danelo", ignoring the correct spelling: "Authorities and media in the United States have rendered his first name as Danelo". Kascyo hey 19:09, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Update: Changed my !vote to a weak oppose per P1's findings below. CycloneYoris talk! 07:24, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For reference: Spellings used by major English-language news sources:
  • Danelo: Associated Press, Reuters, NY Times, Wall Street Journal, LA Times, NBC News, NPR, BBC News, The Guardian, Fox News, Philadelphia Inquirer, all four major Philadelphia-area TV stations
  • Danilo: Washington Post, CNN
I'd definitely say that's a significant majority using "Danelo". P1(talk / contributions) 23:00, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Could you please provide a link for each of these articles you mention? CycloneYoris talk! 02:05, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sure!
Danelo: AP, Reuters, NYT, WSJ, LA Times, NBC News, NPR, BBC, The Guardian, Fox News, Philadelphia Inquirer, (local tv: Fox 29, NBC10, CBS 3 News Philadelphia, 6abc)
Danilo: Washington Post, CNN P1(talk / contributions) 04:06, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I've now changed my !vote to a weak oppose, since I still think the name is misspelled. CycloneYoris talk! 07:24, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. This is clearly a misspelling, not the accurate name which should be adopted by a reliable encyclopedia. Although WP:COMMONNAME states that the commonly recognizable names should be preferred, a bunch of newspapers doesn't have the power to suddenly chances a person's name. "Danilo" still meets WP:CRITERIA for recognizability, because this spelling has been adopted by Brazilian press and by some major American newspapers, such as CNN and The Washington Post. MikutoH (talk) 01:26, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further thoughts: Most of the "oppose" responses thus far focus on the fact that "Danilo" is the "correct" spelling. That seems likely to be the case, although, crucially, there is no way to verify that. And that's the key issue here. Counterintuitive though it may initially seem, the goal of Wikipedia is not to be "correct" or "true" (see WP:CORRECT and WP:VNT). Rather, it's to be verifiable. We accomplish this by citing reliable, independent sources. In the case of names, this can get a little hairy when multiple names have been used for a subject, as we've seen here. To reconcile in these cases, we've made the decision to always base this upon which name is used in "a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources." In this case, that's pretty indisputably "Danelo." Are there independent, reliable English-language sources using the "Danilo" spelling? Yes. However, they're pretty clearly in the minority. P1(talk / contributions) 02:05, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No way to verify that? Where did you take this from? RodRabelo7 (talk) 08:23, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If “Danilo” being “correct” was verifiable, we’d have a source verifying it. But we don’t have such a source. That’s where P1 gets it from. What is verifiable is that for this topic the “Danelo” spelling is more commonly used in reliable English sources. В²C ☎ 13:34, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Pennsylvania Department of Corrections record of his detention use "DANELO" SOUZA CAVALCANTE as did press releases by the Pennsylvania State Police, U.S Marshalls, and his original court cases. Short of seeing his immigration papers legally he seems to be "Danelo" in the states. Ryan92084 (talk) 14:21, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
sources
DoC search CAVALCANTE
PSP just one of many
U.S. Marshalls just one of many
2020 Traffic docket
2021 Magisterial docket
2021 Common Pleas docket
On the oppose side there is the 2023 docket for his escape Ryan92084 (talk) 14:40, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Major outlets like CNN are switching to Danilo, as this discrepancy is now widely known, with Danilo posited as the "correct" spelling. Also, why is the US media supposed to be the standard we use? No evidence that other English-speaking media are using the misspelling. At the very least, it's too soon to decide this. Moncrief (talk) 03:29, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I agree with the previous comments that the correct name should be used. In addition, as previously mentioned by others, major news outlets are using the correct spelling. While others have cited reliable sources using the wrong name, it is still at the end of the day the wrong name and should be the proper spelling in this article. Jurisdicta (talk) 04:44, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • More info from nom. When Cavalcante escaped Brazil he reportedly went to Puerto Rico first, where he obtained a fake ID before coming to the US. Apparently that ID had the “Danelo” spelling, and he’s been “Danelo” ever since. So that is “correct”.
The case was suspended when Cavalcante fled to the United States, Pinto Alamy previously said. He added that Cavalcante, whose first name is listed as "Danilo" in his native country's records, lived on a farm and was an agricultural worker in Brazil.
Cavalcante first went to Puerto Rico, where he got a fake ID, according to the Philadelphia Inquirer. He eventually moved to Chester County in southeast Pennsylvania because he had a sister and friends who were living in the area, the outlet reported. USA Today
В²C ☎ 14:50, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Where did you learn that the fake ID has the other spelling? I can't see it in any of the sources you cited and it's definitely not in the part you quoted. Nil Einne (talk) 23:56, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, certainly a spelling mistake is correct. Is that a joke? 2804:388:411A:9335:1:0:2DBB:8641 (talk) 15:18, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If that is now his official and most commonly used name in the US, yes, yes it is correct. Not a joke at all. It's quite common for spelling "mistakes" to be made when immigrants enter the country. Guess what? The "mistake" becomes part of their name. В²C ☎ 16:02, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes this happened frequently at Ellis Island in the early 1900s but it's a form of cultural insensitivity so why continue that ignorant practice here on WP? Lechonero (talk) 22:08, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose. I understand there may be COMMONNAME concerns related to this change, but "Danelo" isn't this man's correct name. Makes sense as a redirect (along the lines of "Fausto Carmona" for those who know their baseball), but not the article name. DarkSide830 (talk) 16:50, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose. Supporters of the move seem to think there's some sort of ambiguity or language adaptation with the spelling of his name. This is not true. The initial documents about him came out with a clerical error that other media adopted and propagated. His name is Danilo as attested by all sources in Portuguese and a few sources in English that were careful enough not to propagate the initial error. This is absolutely not a matter of interpretation but of perpetuating a mistake. Rkieferbaum (talk) 19:25, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
He’s not from an English language speaking country though. It should be the name he goes by or is on his birth certificate 2600:4041:5B06:F000:3C1F:8518:B852:E2C4 (talk) 19:25, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This should be enough to speedily close this discussion. "Danilo or Danelo? US authorities fix spelling of the name of Brazilian captured after escaping from prison. For weeks, official documents, police and the US press referred to Danilo Cavalcante, the Brazilian lifer who had escaped from prison, as Danelo. He was found on Wednesday (13) after 14 days on the run." source. Rkieferbaum (talk) 19:39, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    globo.com? I'm not even clicking on that one. В²C ☎ 04:40, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    That’s really racist, sadly. But doesn’t surprise me at all. 2804:388:411D:31ED:1:0:37FC:A3EC (talk) 11:28, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Born2cycle: it's "only" Brazil's biggest TV network. You'd think people would at least familiarize theirselves a little bit with the typical sources covering a subject before making comments like this one... Rkieferbaum (talk) 11:33, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    We use ENGLISH language reliable sources on en.wp to decide WP:COMMONNAME. You'd think people would at least familiarize themselves a little bit with WP policy and guidelines before making comments like this one... В²C ☎ 14:23, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Born2cycle: how is that relevant? Danelo isn't an alternate spelling of the name, it's a clerical error already corrected. It's like a fugitive named John went to Brazil, the police published a warrant for Jonh, and people went around wasting people's time about how Jonh is just an alternate and legitimate spelling of the name. It was just an error that's already been corrected as shown multiple times here through multiple reliable sources. YOU familiarize yourself with WP policies, particularly the one that says sources in other languages are acceptable, before going around insisting on a pointless discussion. I'm done with this topic. Rkieferbaum (talk) 15:13, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It’s not clear whether it’s a clerical error or Cavalcante uses Danelo as his official name in the US. Remember, people use all kinds of spelling variations on names. Anyway, I do know that’s not for us to figure out. We rely on reliable English sources to do that, and we follow their lead. В²C ☎ 17:50, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Born2cycle: I'd like to point out, as mentioned here, that we don't solely rely on English sources, but on reliable sources in general. A credible source has been presented which indicates that the alternate spelling was an error. I believe it would be beneficial for everyone if we could consider this and move forward. Rkieferbaum (talk) 22:11, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Don’t conflate the sources we use for article content with the sources we rely upon to choose article titles. See WP:AT and particularly WP:COMMONNAME for titles. It’s English reliable sources for choosing titles. В²C ☎ 14:53, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Born2cycle: you're obviously not interested in actually settling this matter but I'll leave this here for anyone else interested in abiding by Wikipedia policies: the preference for sources in English for article naming obviously applies when it's a matter of legitimate alternative spellings. This being English Wikipedia it's only natural that subjects be known for their name in English, when it differs from the original. This does *not* apply when a clerical error led to several (but not all) English language sources misspelling, initially, a name. The error has already been reliably and extensively established (by the AP and CNN, at least). Insisting on the move beyond that is just disrespectful of other editors' time. Rkieferbaum (talk) 15:45, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Born2cycle: ...and what about the AP, is that enough now? Rkieferbaum (talk) 22:54, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Most AP articles about this topic use Danelo. I still don’t see evidence of what spelling Cavalcante uses in English. Are all the sources just piggy-backing on top of an original error? Or is the spelling he adopted? I have no idea, but I do know it’s up to the reliable sources to figure this out. We just follow their lead. В²C ☎ 14:50, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Born2cycle: "This story was first published on Sept. 14, 2023. It was updated on Sept. 15, 2023, to correct that The Associated Press, quoting officials, misspelled the fugitive’s first name. He is Danilo Cavalcante, not Danelo Cavalcante." This is a correction published yesterday by the AP. Stop trolling. Rkieferbaum (talk) 15:27, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Born2cycle: I'll pray for you. 187.101.164.83 (talk) 15:46, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Important: CNN said: Pennsylvania authorities updated the spelling of Cavalcante’s first name to Danilo in court documents Wednesday". I guess it ends the discussion. Kascyo hey 19:38, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This proposed move should be closed now. RodRabelo7 (talk) 22:50, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I support! LOSBY2 (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Cnn can say what they want, doesn't make it accurate. Ryan92084 (talk) 23:32, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse me? RodRabelo7 (talk) 00:50, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
nothing has changed Ryan92084 (talk) 13:58, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's a strong citation. I want to see at least another one confirming the court updated their paperwork accordingly. If the NYT switches to Danilo, I'll close the proposal myself. --В²C ☎ В²C ☎ 04:44, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Born2cycle Here. You just have to search "Danilo" on the page. Kascyo hey 05:59, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why? I found it. В²C ☎ 14:13, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I see. But that just confirms the Portuguese common spelling, not that the court updated its paperwork. В²C ☎ 14:24, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Common spelling of a proper name? Jesus, what’s wrong with Unitedstatian education system? Danelo is simply wrong, period. But go ahead and keep trolling, you won’t get anything. The title will keep as it is now. 2804:388:411D:31ED:1:0:37FC:A3EC (talk) 14:43, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Danilo ia the correct spelling. I’m Brazilian. Danelo is how it’s pronounced because we pronounce “is” in Portuguese just as “es” in English. 24.164.22.147 (talk) 02:31, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed and hoping for a speedy WP:SNOW close. Moncrief (talk) 17:59, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
who can close this stuf? Only administradors? 2804:1B3:A400:FB4B:3DA8:C2F9:51CF:CA6 (talk) 18:39, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Impossible assertion

[edit]

The sentence "...the Brazilian has experience in hiding in the woods, as he used it as a hiding place when he committed a homicide in 2017 in the same area." cannot be correct because he didn't arrive in "the same area" until 2018. There is no location in Brazil that is "in the same area" as any location in the United States. --Haruo (talk) 16:50, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Definition of crab walk

[edit]

Is "crab walk" a commonly known term? I had never heard it before this news story. We should probably define it. —danhash (talk) 19:26, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"crab walking" is commonly known as what is defined here, i have absolutely no idea why news media outlets considered it as "crab walking" when all he did was perform a wall climb between two close walls. B3251 (talk) 22:34, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why is this subject referred to by his first name throughout the article?

[edit]

This is completely against Wikipedia naming standards. He should be referred to by his last name. Moncrief (talk) 19:37, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Because he is Brazilian and Brazilian people always use the first name. LOSBY2 (talk) 20:00, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Unless the name is from a language where patronymics are used (i.e. Icelandic), MOS:SURNAME states that an individual's surname should be used to refer to them after the first mention. Moncrief is correct, "Cavalcante" should be used throughout the article. P1(talk / contributions) 21:00, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not disregard the rules of Brazilian Portuguese, the world does not revolve around English. LOSBY2 (talk) 22:13, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is not a rule of Portuguese, that is a social preference. EytanMelech (talk) 11:22, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is not a rule of Portuguese. This is the English Wikipedia, and we have certain naming guidelines. Moncrief (talk) 18:00, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This text is written in English, of course it has to follow their standards. 2804:1B3:A400:FB4B:3DA8:C2F9:51CF:CA6 (talk) 18:42, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please someone add the video of the "crab walk"

[edit]

The video is historical and shows the problems of American prisons, please someone add the video of him escaping with the "crab walk". LOSBY2 (talk) 19:58, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It’s probably in the public domain, as its author was a mere security camera. 2804:388:411A:9335:1:0:2DBB:8641 (talk) 20:03, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Notable?

[edit]

Is he really notable? Yeah, he's been in the news A LOT, for the past week or two. But will anyone know/care about him in 5, 10, 20 years? Or even one year? Does he have any lasting impact/notability? I suspect not. But I just wanted to pose the question. Thanks. 32.209.69.132 (talk) 04:55, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

People have said that about numerous criminals and surprisingly are still being talked about to this day. Thomasthedarkenguine (talk) 06:11, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
He's really known for the escape. Not for his crimes. And certainly not for his bio. The more I think about it, this should be an article about the escape ... not about the individual. 32.209.69.132 (talk) 06:30, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I get what you're saying but he seems more notable than the neighborhood drug dealer. Thomasthedarkenguine (talk) 15:27, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have a crystal ball to say whether anyone will "know/care about him in 5, 10, 20 years" or not? 187.101.164.83 (talk) 15:50, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, in fact, I do. It's called "common sense". 32.209.69.132 (talk) 23:56, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone getting the coverage he has gotten is notable by definition. Besides, he’s notable not only for the escape, but also the (mis)spelling of his first name, lol. В²C ☎ 15:23, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Jesus. Silly. 2804:388:4104:BCFE:1:0:47F0:7C17 (talk) 19:23, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Spellcheck

[edit]

In the "Capture" section I noticed John Deere is spelled incorrectly as "John Deer". Thomasthedarkenguine (talk) 06:09, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Thomasthedarkenguine Poor guy, why have they blocked you from editing in the main space? 2804:38A:A32A:CE0A:28D7:6CBA:D423:F54A (talk) 03:56, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'd rather not answer. Thomasthedarkenguine (talk) 04:57, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Cavalcante did not crab walk

[edit]

Crab Walk: move sideways or diagonally, typically in an awkward or furtive manner. Cavalcante did not “crab walk” up the wall, that’s impossible. He climbed the wall by putting his feet on one wall and his hands on the wall across, and walked up the wall. Jackwag (talk) 21:40, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

while i agree what he performed is absolutely not the definition of 'crab walking', the fact that the "crab walk" he performed is such a large focal point of the news sources makes it difficult not to mention it in the article. B3251 (talk) 22:37, 15 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a technical definition of what a crab walk is?2804:1B3:A400:FB4B:3DA8:C2F9:51CF:CA6 (talk) 03:53, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
His technique sounds to me like what rock climbers call chimneying. An editorial footnote might be helpful, to explain the term used in the media. Narky Blert (talk) 08:27, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I added a specification in the leading section. Jackwag (talk) 21:05, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Talk:Danilo_Cavalcante&oldid=1206582981"