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Meatpuppetry/tagteaming/POV pushing/filibustering at Singapore

• Wrigleygum (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Shiok (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Warpslider (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

There are a bunch of accounts of dubious origin who are constantly tag-team filibustering any change to Singapore and are intent on keeping a puffed up version of the article which somehow magnifies the good but hides anything negative about Singapore and the government. It has been going on for months and I am very suspicious that these are meatpuppets/sockpuppets. However, the main problem here is the Status quo stonewalling and tag team edit warring to preserve their version of the article. I have been trying to deal with by opening RfCs. But I cannot open an RFC for every single sentence or phrase. At this point, these accounts (which are almost SPAs) are essentially treading WP:NOTHERE territory and are wasting a lot of time.

Possible sock/meatpuppetry/SPA activity

I first became aware of this at this RFC I started. I noticed that 2 accounts User:Panacealin and User:Warpslider

• User:Panacealin newly registered account whose first edit was to vote on the RFC
• User:Warpslider After an edit on 29 June 2010, their next edit was on 11 July 2016 where they voted on this RFC at Singapore. Someone came out of hibernation after 6 years to vote at an RFC? They also followed me to another page where they had no prior edits.

Socking/Tag Teaming

User:Shiok has previously edited Singapore (a few edits) and User:Wrigleygum was the one who originally added all the puffery. Today this sequence happened.

• by Wrigleygum 16:19, 13 November 2016
• I revert 16:21, 13 November 2016
• Wrigleygum reverts 16:28, 13 November 2016
• I revert 16:29, 13 November 2016
• Shiok reverts 16:36, 13 November 2016

I am very curious that Shiok came up all of a sudden to revert me, within a span of a few minutes? (Not sure if there is some offline collusion going on)

It is also worth looking at the this diff where Wrigleygum says here are 3 editors here who do not share your POV. Discuss or just bring it to ANI (emphasis mine). I'm not sure who are the 3 editors. At the point of revert, the discussion for this issue was going on here and at no point were there 3 editors not sharing my POV. I wonder whether this was a mistake or were there actually 3 editors? Note that, Shiok's revert happened after this and Shiok had not commented on the talk page either. I wonder where did 3 editors come from and how did Wrigleygum know there were 3 editors? Offline?

All of these accounts have a strong tendency to support each other's ideas. For example, in this current RFC Shiok posted a link and later Warpslider replied I spent some time listening to the 'Collapse of Trust in Government' video link by Shiok. It is a panel discussion at a conference on Challenges in Government. As an example of countries with high Trust by citizens, Singapore was the first country mentioned by the panel and a number of times in the discussion. This is a clear endorsement for the country and there was certainly no Singaporeans on the panel or audience.

Note that I'm not the only one who suspects socking/meatpuppetry. User:Nick-D suspected the same here on my talk page.

I had previously brought this issue to ANI. See User:Wrigleygum and issues at Singapore, although the thread was archived. I was also myself brought to ANI by another suspicious account which suddenly woke up from hibernation.

Based on the above, I am seeking a PBAN as the first step for dealing with these accounts. If these accounts are really sincere about contributing to the encyclopaedia, then it is time for them to demonstrate good faith by sticking to the talk page and not editing the article itself. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 19:08, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Curious? -> On Sunday, I had edited Singapore's lead earlier in the day so I saw that you had deleted the nicknames, wavered on reverting but stayed logged on, did other work. Previously (25-Sept-2016), I had stated my views to keep the nicknames. I was alerted when Wrigleygum posted his reply after midnight, just like you but your reaction was just 2 mins on both your reverts. So despite keeping a low profile, I took a stand. Shiok (talk) 04:48, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

At the Nickname discussion section, there is Wrigleygum and the IP editor arguing with you. The third editor referred to by Wrigley is probably myself - but if he is referring to another person, that will be 4 editors against your POV to remove. I stated here - "The nicknames should stay as it's written up in the media on a regular even daily basis and readers may wonder why our country is known by that." -Shiok (talk) 05:11, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

By posting this malice, my guess that she has exhausted her arguments at the [City-Country Nicknames debate], since she did this ANI shortly after, rather than spending her time discussing content. It expose her true character under stress. I won't spend more time than needed. Each time she plot similar stunts, I will repeat paste what I wrote at SG talk previously:

• "Lemongirl942, none of what you said above to "sow the seeds of doubt" bear witness and repetition does not make it so. Especially for WP:Consensus, you have been contradictory and bending it to suit your purpose. I think the few contributors here has actually been accommodating, or maybe intimidated. You have been talking about your experience over other editors, maybe too much it makes one feel invincible, and occasionally you should re-read Wiki principles: [Experience] - "No editor has more authority than any other, regardless of prior experience. Edit count and length of time that has passed since your first edit are only numbers"

Also, what you said recently in talk and edit summaries (I only checked for last few days) - "Stop your POV pushing, or I will make sure you get blocked", "Consider this a warning..you are pushing yourself towards a block" - sounds exactly like the examples quoted at WP:THREATEN - "On Wikipedia, personal attacks are not tolerated. In particular, it is unacceptable to threaten another that some form of action that cannot or will not likely be taken will occur. When editors make threats like these, and the environment becomes hostile, the victims, especially those who are new are scared away from Wikipedia altogether. (Note: posted at Talk:Singapore by Warpslider on 13:58, 25 October 2016 (UTC) ).

—Warpslider (talk) 06:15, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

You are POV pushing and edit warring. You are an SPA with very few contributions. You do not understand the policies. You removed the tag but didn't justify why. All of this is disruptive. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 15:24, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

This is what an established editor said to you:

"Leaving the POV tag on the article permanently is not an option. See Template:POV#When_to_remove. William Avery (talk) 16:08, 25 October 2016 (UTC)"

The Template use says: When to remove

This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. You may remove this template whenever any one of the following is true:

1.There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved.

2.It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given.

3.In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

It could have been removed with condition (3). When you put up the tag, one whole month passed without further discussion, and you continued to block all editors trying to remove it. I would say that's malicious. Wrigleygum (talk) 16:04, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

When you put up the tag, one whole month passed without further discussion, and you continued to block all editors trying to remove it. Really? That's a pretty serious allegation. Are you claiming that I didn't attempt to discuss? Are you claiming that there was no discussion on the talk page when the tag was removed? Really? I mean I see this and this RFC going on. On what grounds are you and your fellow SPAs justifying the removal? Please show your diffs. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 16:47, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

This tag was for the Step-1 section. It should have been removed after a month without discussion, else you go to the 2nd, 3rd.. points with no ending. Every article will be forever changing, you can't justify having a TAG on the article forever.Wrigleygum (talk) 18:01, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Please familiarise yourself with Wikipedia. The POV tag is about the disputed neutrality of the lead. It is supposed to stay until the lead becomes neutral. Now you said When you put up the tag, one whole month passed without further discussion, and you continued to block all editors trying to remove it Please provide diffs to support your allegation, particularly about how I continued to blocked all editors. Please also provide proof to show that I didn't attempt to discuss and that there was no discussion on the talk page relevant to the neutrality of the lead when the tag was removed? --Lemongirl942 (talk) 03:28, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Just spending another minute to say it's TGIF and I won't be back till much later. No worries, you have the crown for filibustering. Wrigleygum (talk) 07:22, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

The irony is strong here. Nice try diverting the issue Wrigleygum. I will once again request you to answer the question. You said When you put up the tag, one whole month passed without further discussion, and you continued to block all editors trying to remove it Please provide diffs to support your allegation, particularly about how I continued to block all editors. Please also provide proof to show that I didn't attempt to discuss and that there was no discussion on the talk page relevant to the neutrality of the lead at the time when the tag was removed? --Lemongirl942 (talk) 07:51, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

I see that you couldn't answer the question. That should probably tell you stuff. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 16:52, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

No, you have plenty of time, I don't. I will certainly look to document the events, wastes time to do such things but if this thread continues... I will set aside time for it. Wrigleygum (talk) 05:22, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

The thing is, you do not have diffs to support your accusations. Precisely because I did no such thing as you have accused. Now would be a good time to admit that you were wrong. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 18:28, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Timeline

• 1st RFC about Lead Section closed with a general statement - "..broad though not unanimous consensus that the lead needs to be trimmed". There was no specifics mentioned. --01:06, 25 August 2016
• LG starts POV & undue and places POV Tag - 03:26, 24 September 2016‎
• Last comment in section (only 2 editors responded) on 02:51, 25 September 2016
• Between 25 Sept — 23 Oct - no further response by editors, dormant

Note: At this point, if this was a regular RFC, the POV Tag could have been removed by reason of Template:POV#When_to_remove (see below)

• 16:08, 25 October 2016---[Avery responded on the thread] that "Leaving the POV tag on the article permanently is not an option. See Template:POV#When_to_remove."
• 05:29, 26 October 2016---Warpsider responded to Avery, citing the Template mentioned

"When to remove

- You may remove this template whenever any one of the following is true:..

3. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant."

and proceeded to remove the Tag - (See Talk.)

• (break, to continue...)

- Wrigleygum (talk) 15:08, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

OK, let's get this straight. So you are claiming that when Warpslider removed the tag on 26 October, there was no discussion going on and all discussion about any issues related to POV in the lead had become dormant. Am I correct? So when Warpslider removed the tag on 25 October, there was no discussion at all - no one had posted anything on the talk page till that time and hence, Warpslider removed the tag. And yet, if you look at the talk page history, there seems to be quite a few posts starting from 22 October. Are you seriously claiming that when Warpslider removed the tag, there was no discussion on the talk page or that the discussion had become dormant? --Lemongirl942 (talk) 09:27, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Those discussions does not matter. I have yet to finish timeline, tonight maybe. Wrigleygum (talk) 09:52, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Continued edit warring to remove the POV tag about the lead

Warpslider and Wrigleygum are now edit warring to remove the POV tag (diff1, diff2) which I placed because the parts of the lead are undue. This is precisely editing against consensus. This is despite a previous RFC was closed by Drmies as There is broad though not unanimous consensus that the lead needs to be trimmed, and that the statistics are overdone. and also a current RFC where apart from the above 3 SPAs and a dubious IP, every single experienced editor has agreed that parts of the lead were undue. I am seeing a behavioural problem here, so I am strongly suggesting a page ban. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 12:22, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Great, it continues. Now a couple of the SPAs are tag teaming to remove it. See diff. Can someone please do something? --Lemongirl942 (talk) 15:23, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

You are refusing to discuss with 3 editors who are against you putting up the Tag, violating WP:Consensus.

Yes, the RFC closing summary reads "There is broad though not unanimous consensus that the lead needs to be trimmed, and that the statistics are overdone". What to trim? It will be by Consensus correct? Does trimming refer to just the stats or everything? One editor does not determine that. Certainly not by yourself alone Wrigleygum (talk) 15:34, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I am sick and tired of discussing with a bunch of SPAs. Did you look at Template:POV#When_to_remove? Can you honestly justify any reason for removing the tag? There is already consensus that stuff in the lead is undue. Which is why I have tagged the article. Why do you continue to tag team and remove it? This is status quo stonewalling. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 15:44, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Shall we agree you are not the only one to determine what to remove? Wrigleygum (talk) 18:03, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I am not the only one to determine that the POV tag has to be removed. It requires a consensus of editors. Please note that 3 SPAs with very limited experience, doesn't equate to consensus - it's not a vote. Get the support of experienced editors who actually understand policy. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 02:03, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

It's three editors against you. So tell us about this experience you harp about. The word "Experience" does not occur a single time on WP:Consensus - do paste the relevant quote from policy that describe it here. Shiok (talk) 21:35, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

We require editors to understand consensus. It's not a vote. Consensus works on arguments based on policies and guidelines - it's not a vote. The fact that 3 SPAs (with no understand of how Wikipedia works) were opposing me, doesn't make it right. The RFC shows that there were NPOV problems in the lead. You cannot remove tags until they are fixed. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:40, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

The word "Experience" does not occur a single time on WP:Consensus - do paste the relevant quote from policy that describe it here. - Do this first, just paste the policy here, instead of making up something yourself, else you are called out as lying. Wrigleygum (talk) 17:51, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Huh? Let me explain properly. Consensus is not a vote. Nobody agrees with your view that removing the POV tags was justified at that time. I asked you to get an experienced editor to support you. You couldn't. And you are still having the same belligerent attitude. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 18:01, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

She makes up some personal 'policy' that only 'experienced' editors can have a consensus to overcome her. I note that Shiok ask her to quote a WP principle stating 'experience needed' - The word "Experience" does not occur a single time on WP:Consensus - do paste the relevant quote from policy that describe it here. No answer, yet she continues.. Wrigleygum (talk) 05:33, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

• Update: Warpslider blocked for edit warring on Singapore --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:58, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Seems @Warpslider: is no longer around, did not even attend court. Wrigleygum (talk) 05:37, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Continuous POV pushing and adding of WP:UNDUE content

Please see this edit. Wrigleygum is continuously adding undue content to the article. And refusing to drop the stick. I do not see any indication that Wrigleygum is here to improve the encyclopaedia. As such, I would recommend and indefinite block per WP:NOTHERE. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 17:33, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Dear Admins, there are a number of issues this editor is trying to lump together as edit-warring, including:

• POV tags
• removal of Educational Rankings since has been in the Singapore article for a year

She is using all manners of Notices to justify raising her malicious ANIs. Please have a read on the Talk:Singapore as a start. Will add more explanation later Wrigleygum (talk) 17:47, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

She is using all manners of Notices to justify raising her malicious ANIs. Great, continue to cast aspersions. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 18:03, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Adding points to above by wrigleygum:

• removal of any lead content which were part of 1st RFC and still in on-going discussion
• currently in 2nd RFC — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shiok (talk • contribs) 04:59, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

@Shiok: Do not alter other people's posts. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:08, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes you are right, apologies, I just mentioned that myself. Shiok (talk) 07:07, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Well, then it is a combination of tag teaming, edit warring, POV pushing and general filibustering by SPAs. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 04:34, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

No teams here. I see plenty of tag-teaming on her part on the other hand, or like just waiting in the wings to jump in when other 'buddies' are around - then taking the oppotunity to remove/edit other positive ones in the Singapore article. SPA? seems I am "almost" one in recent times, with 90% time spent engaging her nonsense, reverts, ANIs, Notices etc.

Admins, I'm avoiding exchanges with this person because it can be endless, with her regurgitating stuff that makes my eyes roll. Unless very necessary like in here.. otherwise I may end saying things that gets me banned! I think some of us likely had similar occasions. Wrigleygum (talk) 05:17, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Ah yes, another round of accusations. Go and ahead and prove your accusations Wrigleygum. We need diffs. If you spend 90% of your time engaging in my nonsense, it should be clear that you are WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopaedia. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 09:30, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Competence issues, refactoring other's talk page comments and misuse of templates by Shiok

SPA Shiok just left this message saying that I "harassed" (and apparently threatened) them by leaving a template "even when the original tag editor has not done so". Here's what happened. Shiok who is an SPA, was tagged as an SPA by another editor. But Shiok decided to remove it themself - which is not supposed to be done. I warned them on their talk page and the editor reinstated the tag. Oh and Shiok was actually warned by the editor, though they removed the warning as I had already given one. Considering that Shiok has been warned multiple times not to refactor others' comments, I am not sure if this is a competence issue and an action based on WP:CIR may be required. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 01:38, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

According to WP:SPA , it generally implies an editor with a narrow focus. However I'm not editing inappropriately and have been adding knowledge, removing vandalism. Currently, I am interested in more current Asia topics in Asean, Singapore with my background. Changes by others like in the South China Sea though was too much to follow and I rather not be confrontational. For a while I read up on history of Singapore and found some significant facts utterly wrong - i.e. no evidence our prehistory goes back to 2nd century or ancient names changed - likely some fabrication that's been there for years.

"..tagged as an SPA by another editor. But Shiok decided to remove it themself - which is not supposed to be done."

-:There are no guidelines when or who can remove the tags. Please paste the direct section link of the SPA tag removal guidelines here if wrong. Shiok (talk) 07:11, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Proposed PBAN for the above mentioned accounts at Singapore

• Support as proposer. This has been going on for too long, almost 5 months now. I didn't want to do this, but a PBAN works well here. If they are serious about improving, then they can still propose changes on the talk page. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 19:08, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

@Lemongirl942: So, umm ... two weeks and four days after you posted the above, I have to ask who are "the above mentioned accounts"? Can I non-admin close this sub-thread as not having a snowball's chance in hell having only one support after this long? Can you wait for this to get archived and open a new thread with better formatting than five separate sub-threads in non-chronological order? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:43, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

She does have a legitimate concern that Singapore SPAs are whitewashing the article. It's not her fault that uninvolved editors have not yet waded through all the wikilawyering by the SPAs. Softlavender (talk) 10:52, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I can see that. But I can also see that as the thread is now the PBAN proposal is not going to pass, and closing the whole thread with procedural "This isn't going anywhere as it stands at the moment. No prejudice against re-opening a better-formatted discussion on the same forum." so it gets archived sooner and a new one can be opened would be in the best interests of whoever has the better case to be made. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:00, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

@Hijiri88:, @Softlavender:, others - I am the editor who maintained the Singapore lead for the past year. I do have wide interests and not an SPA in the sense of narrow focus. It's all time constraint due to work. WP:SPA does say an editor with previous diversified edit history should not be labeled as such, if he focus on single subjects for extended time. When the current storm is over, I will return to other interests.

I am glad to see at least some uninvolved editors coming by to engage. If you have the time, I would in fact be grateful if you can wade through the Singapore Lead and my explanation at [Singapore's lead:Specific issues] which addresses all the major concerns. My focus was to highlight the most representative and widely written data points about Singapore. Some have said is reads better and more informative compared to other major country/city articles like NYC, London, Tokyo. But Lemongirl, the main one who is finding all means to suppress the key achievements of the country, is in denial of it.

As for 'Whitewashing', no one has used that word in Talk:Singapore - because topics like civil liberties, freedom, democracy are all in the body text, and there was no effort to suppress them. I checked that 'Wikilawyering' was used once relating to photos and we can debate that if you wish. Indeed, I hope some can wade through the lead and article with new perspective. After all the time spent here, look forward to read your comments. Wrigleygum (talk) 15:35, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Apparent attempts at censorship

The user Xtremedood (talk · contribs) seems to be engaged in a long-term agenda to censor valid information about the prophet Mohammad, and just deleted/redirected an entire page filled with references:

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Special:Contributions/Xtremedood

[1] [2] [3]

[4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13]

He has apparently also been blocked several times previously due to edit-warring. Help would be very appreciated. David A (talk) 05:16, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

• I agree these are problematical edits -- driveby removals and re-removals made without the least bit of discussion and with inaccurate edit summaries. I also believe that Xtremedood is often a problem editor who is unable to edit collaboratively, particularly not on the subject of Islam, Mohammed, or related subjects. Softlavender (talk) 07:30, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

User:Xtremedood's editing behaviour clearly demonstrates a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, making biased edits in favour of Islam and Pakistan. In just two recent scenarios, this user attempted to link a pornographic actress with Catholicism and attempted to state in an article that anyone else besides Muslims, such as Indian Hindus, use the term fakir erroneously. Digging through his contributions reveals more alarming edits. Does anyone oppose a topic ban for User:Xtremedood on articles related to religion in general, as well as articles covering India and Pakistan-related topics broadly construed? If not, he needs one, badly, as other editors are getting worn out with having to engage with this problematic editor. Jobas (talk) 18:03, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Resonating with what User:David_A mentioned above, User:Xtremedood just attempted to redirect a page about Muhammad to a distantly related article. Edits such as these are frustrating and harmful to the project. Jobas (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

The criticism article is about other peoples perspectives on the issue, and has nothing to do with the objective analysis of Prophet Muhammad's teachings about slavery. Xtremedood (talk) 03:13, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

• I Weakly support a topic ban. There is some pretty obvious POV pushing, and the user has a slightly troubling habit of quickly erasing their talk page (or the section) whenever they are given advice, a warning or have had sanctions placed against them. However, it's not entirely clear to me that they're unable or unwilling to learn to play by the rules. However, I'm open to having my mind hardened. Once I started looking through their talk page history, there's a lot of indications of a battleground mentality. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 21:49, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Hello User:MjolnirPants, I do not believe that I have demonstrated WP:BATTLE as demonstrated by my statements below. I think it is important to get both sides of the picture prior to making a decision. Xtremedood (talk) 04:48, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

• Support Topic Ban on articles relating to religion and India-Pakistan broadly construed. Despite the issues raised by User:David A in his OP, User:Xtremedood continues to edit war on these topic areas, e.g. Example One, Example Two. If this user is topic banned, their very recent history of using sockpuppets to edit war in these topic areas (see Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Xtremedood) should be taken into account and monitored. Given these facts, to respond kindly to User:MjolnirPants, it should be "entirely clear to me that they're unable or unwilling to learn to play by the rules" and should be topic banned in order to prevent further damage from being caused to the project. Jobas (talk) 15:11, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Comment - In reality, user:Jobas has an extremely pro-Christian bias. He deleted referenced materials [14], [15], [16], [17] which apparently shows a strong pro-Christian bias and which according to a consensus at the time [18], between Jobas, myself, and User:Sturmgewehr88 was considered to be a legitimate entry in the article at the time. Jobas alongside similar pro-Christian editors are far numerous on Wikipedia and their POV should not take precedence, just because they have more people. There is a clear denial of facts by Jobas and his supporters [19]. Mia Khalifa still identifies as a Catholic [20], whereas the current article makes it look as if she might have left Catholicism with ambiguous words such as "although is no longer practicing" [21].

My edits are based on fair, source-centric, and authentic information. Jobas on the other hand has committed himself to censoring sourced materials on the article List of converts to Islam from Christianity, over here [22][23], while on the other hand introducing questionable, or incorrectly sourced materials (including blogspot references) on the List of converts to Christianity from Islam, [24], [25], [26].

• As far as the Early Muslim-Meccan Conflict, I am correct in my edits as it consists of misattributed references, take a look at the references, the sources do not indicate as the author (user:Misconceptions2 states, who has a strong history of sockpuppetry and deception [27]. Also, literally zero sources refer to it by the non-NPOV name he allotted for it "Caravan Raids". I have attempted to engage in the users like David A who opposed my edit in dialogue, here [28], however they refuse to even try and validate the references and have not responded to my inquiries. The entire article is made up of misattributed sources, which do not say as Misconceptions2 states.

• As far as the Al Kudr Invasion, the article was created by the same user (user:Misconceptions2), who has the extreme history of deception and sockpuppetry. He misattributes the source, stating that the Prophet Muhammad kept the one-fifth to himself, whereas the Mubarakpuri reference does not say that. In reality, the one-fifth is in regards to a Quranic commandment, and the money was used for freeing slaves and helping orphans.

• As far as the History of Sufism is concerned. This was a disagreement between user:MezzoMezzo and I. We discussed it over here [29] like civilized people and came to a conclusion. I disagreed with the source being so old (from 1930) and how it contradicted recent studies like those of Carl Ernst and William Chittick. For example, Carl Ernst has gone as far as saying that Orientalist sources during this period (1930) should not be trusted on page 2 of [30]. Titus Burkchardt has also contradicted such data during this period in his book, Introduction to Sufi Doctrine, on page 4 [31].

• As far as the Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi Article is concerned, it was a similar disagreement with user:MezzoMezzo, where we discussed [32] like civilized people the nature of the source and came to the conclusion that the source was not about criticism. Which neither David A or Jobas participated in. The source does not state any criticisms and therefore is a misattributed source and should be deleted. See our discussion for further information on the matter.

User:David_A and user:Jobas have no foot to stand on, as Jobas's biased edits on the Mia Khalifa, List of converts to Islam from Christianity, and List of converts to Christianity from Islam shows a strong bias. Wikipedia should not be a place in which the more numerous Christian editors have say over others. Xtremedood (talk) 06:28, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

user:Jobas also never informed me that this discussion was going on. This is clearly an example of unfair editing and trying to censor my perspective. Xtremedood (talk) 03:08, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Support Topic ban--Yeah, you're not supposed to write about your perspective on Wikipedia. CerealKillerYum (talk) 14:30, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

@Xtremedood:Jobas also never informed me that this discussion was going on. This is clearly an example of unfair editing and trying to censor my perspective.

1. It was David A who opened this discussion.
2. He absolutely did notify you. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 03:41, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes, that is correct. There is something wrong with my notifications, I have 21 of them and they are not going away. Xtremedood (talk) 04:50, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

So, in your defense against my statement that you show indications of a battleground mentality, you accused another user of being "unfair and trying to censor [your] perspective" based on zero evidence and zero effort to find said evidence? That's battleground behavior, right there. Indeed, your defense consists entirely of attacking another editor. If you're trying to convince me to change my weak support to a strong support, you're certainly on the right track. I'm not suggesting that Jobas' behavior is perfect (I haven't looked into their behavior yet), and it is possible that they may need to face sanctions as well, but that is an entirely separate issue from your own behavior.

By the way, there is a link at the top right of the notification drop-down that says "Mark all as read" which you can click on to dismiss your existing notifications. Furthermore (though it is sometimes buggy), clicking on an individual notification should mark it as read. Finally, if you have viewed all of your notifications (by opening the drop down), the icon will be grey, even as it shows the number of notifications, instead of red, which means you have new notifications. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 16:26, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

I believe my record of attempting to engage in and engaging in dialogue for matters pertaining to misattributed sources shows that I am not operating upon such a mentality, but instead I am showing concern for the authenticity of the sources and the content in the sources. I have shown above that for all of the articles referenced by David A that I have a strong justification for the edits. I had invited David A to talk about the matters and for all of the links he has cited he was never a part of the dialogue.Xtremedood (talk) 01:43, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

• I Support a ban, for much the same reasons as Jobas and MjolnirPants. The user appears completely unrepentant and relentless in pursuit of an agenda, with several past rule-violation incidents. David A (talk) 06:45, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

I have invited you to discuss the issue [33], however, you never (not even once) have engaged in dialogue about the issue. We also had discussions about the other articles you have referenced [34], [35] and you have not even once joined in the conversation. Xtremedood (talk) 12:00, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Note to admins: As any decision-making body or person, whether in courts or in the legal field takes in to consideration the mental health of both the complainant and defendant, it should be noted that David A self-identifies as autistic, OCD and ADD on his profile [36]. Attention to the details is critical to this issue and while I have demonstrated sound rationale for my edits, citing clear misattribution of sources as the primary cause, I have not heard from any of the other editors about actually verifying what the sources say. Xtremedood (talk) 12:00, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

I have not engaged in dialogue because I am not expertised regarding the subject matters, and am also technically on vacation at the moment. I have however, noticed repeated attempts to remove information, with highly similar patterns in terms of viewpoint-pushing.

As for the issues that you noted, they are not mental illnesses, just minor handicaps, and completely irrelevant to this case. They do not make me unstable or mentally defective. David A (talk) 12:28, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

To claim a user's ASD prevents them from making sound judgements is rather ridiculous. In fact, in most cases, the opposite is true (I too am autistic, and it is for me). Xtremedood is setting up a strawman's argument. Patient Zero^talk 12:33, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. The OP presented 13 very clear instances of blatant censorship and POV-pushing: article blanking, section blanking, and repeated undiscussed removal of cited material. This sort of behavior has been going on ever since he started editing a year and a half ago. I support a topic ban on articles relating to either religion or India-Pakistan, broadly construed. If admins do not wish or see their way to implementing this at present, I suggest a sanction in the form of a warning that if this behavior crops up again in any way, an immediate topic-ban or indefinite block will ensue. Softlavender (talk) 02:35, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

I have discussed those edits as being justified in accordance with WP policies, see my above comment. In your most recent edit, of Al Kudr Invasion you have utilized a misappropriation of source. I have set up a conversation here [37] to discuss it. You have readded the following statement: "He also kept a fifth of the spoils." This is not an accurate portrayal of the instance, as the one-fifth that was taken was used in accordance with the Quranic commandment 8:41, [38] which states: "And know that anything you obtain of war booty - then indeed, for Allah is one fifth of it and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and the orphans, the needy, and the [stranded] traveler, if you have believed in Allah and in that which We sent down to Our Servant on the day of criterion - the day when the two armies met. And Allah , over all things, is competent." I find it strange that you want to include reference only to Prophet Muhammad but not Allah (God), relatives, orphans, needy, and a stranded traveller? Any reason for such an edit? The Mubarakpuri source clearly states "he had set aside the usual one-fifth". Why is it that you want to mention only Prophet Muhammad but not Allah (God), relatives, orphans, needy, and a stranded traveller of the one-fifth? Wikipedia should not be the place of such anti-Islamic bias. Xtremedood (talk) 16:16, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

If I understand correctly, the issue here seems to be that you wish to remove any references that you consider to have a negative bias against Islam, and its prophet, but this is not how Wikipedia is intended to work. Wikipedia is strictly supposed to list accurately referenced facts, or statistics, regardless if these display a particular religion, ideology, opinion, or other concept in a positive or negative light. You cannot start to remove anything that you dislike, in order to deliberately try to slant public perception. David A (talk) 06:38, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

So with 5 editors in support of a ban or permanent topic ban, will it be carried out? David A (talk) 01:51, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

WP consensus is not based on votes. As of now I have not seen any solid policy related arguments for a ban. The ban seems like true censorship. My edits are based on solid rationale and do not violate WP policy. With the extreme sock-puppetry and mass mis-attribution of sources involved by the article's creator (Misconceptions2), admins should not base their decisions on votes. Also, I am the only editor who has actually tried to start and engage in discussions over here for the articles you have referenced, whereas none of the other editors here have so far even engaged in 1 single dialogue about the articles you have referenced. Xtremedood (talk) 12:44, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Regardless whether Misconceptions2 has inserted references or not, they should not be removed wholesale as long as they are accurate. And I sincerely doubt that he alone wrote all of the material that you have edited out during your time in Wikipedia. Not to mention, your block history is suspicious in itself, so you are not one in position to cast stones. David A (talk) 06:38, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Well that is exactly the point. They are not accurate, and you have made so far zero attempts to try and discuss it with me. The other materials I have removed, I have justified as being either outdated, a misrepresentation of the source(s), or WP:OR. Xtremedood (talk) 15:01, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

User:Sk8erPrince not using edit summaries when nominating articles for deletion

Sk8erPrince (talk · contribs) very rarely uses edit summaries, including not using them when nominating articles for AFD. I've asked him to at least use them when nominating articles for deletion [39], but he has not responded to my comment and has continued to not usually use edit summaries, including when nominating articles for deletion [40] [41]. For full context, mandy people, including me, find his behavior hostile and uncooperative in general (see Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2016 November 20#Nanaho_Katsuragi for a recent example). My understanding is that using edit summaries when nominating an article for deletion is not optional (WP:AFDHOW says to give edit summaries, and I've seen people blocked before for not using them). I'm hoping an admin can get him to at the very least use edit summaries when nominating articles for AFD, if not be more cooperative in general. Calathan (talk) 07:41, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Ok, first off: Is this merely about me not using edit summaries, or is it about me being "uncooperative" to a greater extent (I honestly don't see how I am uncooperative if I'm just following by the rules in pretty much every procedure I do)? WP:AFDHOW never once stated that not using edit summaries as an offense. If it did, I will be doing it. I have also deleted 29 articles thus far without using edit summaries, and nobody up until now has informed me that it is necessary... or is it? Until clarification on this so called matter (it's honestly so trivial that this discussion should be closed immediately) is addressed, I see no reason why I should be lectured by another non-admin level member. Also, I have the right to choose whether or not I'd like to reply when you post on my talk page, ie. my territory. Choosing to report me for such a teeny thing... you honestly have nothing better to do. --Sk8erPrince (talk) 08:21, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Sk8erPrince, not using edit summaries is in and of itself uncooperative. You also respond with hostility to any criticism (such as the long angry rant you gave at the deletion review I linked to). I don't see how that can be considered cooperative editing. You seem to care much more about bragging about how many articles you've gotten deleted than actually working constructively with anyone else, and basically seem to have a WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude to everything you do here. While I particularly want you to start using edit summaries so I can tell when you've nominated a page on my watch list for deletion, I'd also really like you to just stop being so hostile in general. So I guess both are issues here. Calathan (talk) 08:45, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

While I particularly want you to start using edit summaries so I can tell when you've nominated a page on my watch list for deletion

*I see, so that's how it is... basically, you want me to start using edit summaries just to make it easier for you, for your own personal convenience. In other words, Idegon is right - it's not a matter of policy, it's about wanting me to make your life easier. Yeah, no. Overturned. I have no obligation to make life easy for you. --Sk8erPrince (talk) 09:42, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Calathan, there is absolutely nothing requiring the use of edit summaries at anytime, for anything. The only thing you've provided diffs for is not using edit summaries, which although certainly a great idea, are unambiguously not required. So if you're complaining about something else, please provide diffs. John from Idegon (talk) 09:27, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

There is indeed no policy requiring edit summaries for any edit. That said there is a clear consensus expressed in guidelines and how to documents that edit summaries should be used for some types of edit. One such category is nominations for deletion, as described at WP:AFDHOW. So no, Sk8erPrince doesn't have to do this, but yes he ought to do it anyway. Perhaps he could just agree to use edit summaries for future AFDs, and then we can all move on to something more interesting? Jonathan A Jones (talk) 11:04, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

+1 - Edit summaries aren't compulsory however one should be added after every edit you make otherwise you're more prone to being reverted quicker, But it's up to Sk8, I suggest this gets speedy closed as no admin intervention is needed. –Davey2010^Talk 11:15, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Good. Nice to see that I'm getting support. Though I must say - none of my edits have been reverted as a result of not putting in any edit summaries. --Sk8erPrince (talk) 11:52, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Agreed, I'd like to see Sk8er start using edit summaries for at the very least AfD. Though I am feeling that battleground mentality in Sk8er's comment. Mr rnddude (talk) 11:25, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

@Jauerback and Sk8erPrince: I am not certain that I agree with closing the thread at this time. A request that experienced editors provide some form of edit summary for substantive edits is a reasonable one, which has been seconded by several people commenting here, and I see no meaningful explanation from Sk8erPrince for why he is declining to do so. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:26, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Can we please move on? An admin has already stipulated that it is not compulsory. Given that is true, why are you still dwelling on it? Oh wait, you're an admin, too. Well, we're not gonna continue this discussion. The end. Stop bothering me about it. It's my choice whether or not I want to use edit summaries, and honestly, if I see one more person nag me about it again, I'm reporting y'all as harassment. --Sk8erPrince (talk) 00:55, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

No, I for one agree with Newyorkbrad, this needs a bit more discussion. @Sk8erPrince: I'm entirely unsatisfied with your responses here: by not giving an edit summary mentioning nomination for deletion, you're hiding from those who have the article on their watchlist that the article has been put up for deletion, and you do actually have an obligation to edit collegially here; not doing so is called disruptive editing, and it's grounds for blocking. Your user page also displays a battleground attitude (although I was happy to note that you have not personally deleted any of the articles you claim there to have deleted, just "won" the deletion debate. Is there any way we can persuade you to use the edit summary box at least when nominating an article for deletion? Yngvadottir (talk) 01:43, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Sk8erPrince, please doublecheck where you are. This is ANI, a place where an editor comes here to complain about another editor for whatever reason. The OP and the reported user are both equally investigated in the complaint. If I were to complain about a user, my actions also come into question. To call it harrasment seriously shows that you need a refresh on policies and guidelines. Should a user question your editing, they are allowed to (re)open a discussion, whether you like it or not. It's not harrasment. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 01:49, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

This response wasn't really helpful and is bordering WP:IDHT. Our work here is to improve the encyclopaedia. Using edit summaries helps other editors to quickly get an idea about the edit, without a need to examine the edit itself. While not compulsory, it is considered good practice to leave an edit summary for each edit. I would urge you to take the advice which multiple editors are giving you here. I see that you do good work in AfDs and are a productive editor otherwise, so adding edit summaries should't hurt. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 01:59, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. Edit summaries aren't always required, but no reason has been given why they aren't being added. Hobit (talk) 03:48, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Also agreed. Edit summaries are not currently required for all edits. However, we are all volunteers here, and as someone else mentioned, most/all of us lack the ability to read minds. An edit summary (even a quick one like "typo") can help enormously when an edit pops up on a watch list and doesn't seem to make sense at first glance. Knowing why someone made the edit can go a long way toward smoothing relationships on the site (including the avoidance of potential edit wars). Help:Edit summary clearly states that "it is good practice to fill in the Edit summary field, or add to it in the case of section editing, as this helps others to understand the intention of your edit." (emphasis added) ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 19:56, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

I've undone my closure and I apologize for closing the thread as I didn't think it was going to lead to anything productive. Obviously, I was wrong in that assumption. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 11:19, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Proposal to require edit summaries

Propose that we add an editing restriction on Sk8erPrince. Specifically that he be required to use clear edit summaries that indicate what action is he is taking/proposing when initiating a deletion action. This includes but is not limited to PRODs, speedies, and AfD nominations.

Support

1. Support as nom It's at the point of being disruptive and he seems unwilling to do so on his own unless it's specifically required of him. Hobit (talk) 03:27, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
2. Support - Having read the discussion above what I didn't think about at the time of writing my comment was that the editor can easily AFD/CSD/PROD any article of their choosing and no one would ever know - That's disruptive on all forms, Although it isn't compulsory to use edit summaries it is extremely helpful and one should always be used when nominating/csding/proding any article, Unless the editor agrees to start using edit summaries for everything they do then they should be restricted for now. –Davey2010^Talk 03:39, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
3. Support - I definitely support this since Sk8erPrince seems unwilling to use edit summaries unless required to do so. I initially missed that he had nominated an article on my watch list for deletion, and only noticed that it was up for deletion because I was also watching a deletion sorting page where it got listed by someone else. Sk8erPrince, I still am completely baffled as to why you would think making things easier for other users is not a good enough reason to use edit summaries. Calathan (talk) 05:07, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
4. Support - if a vote will do anything to help. Yngvadottir (talk) 06:17, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
5. Support Wikipedia relies on collaboration. Rules cannot impose common sense, but the community can recognize when a problem exists and require minimum standards. Johnuniq (talk) 06:22, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
6. Support WP:AFDHOWTO definitely instructs users to use edit summaries. While it never clarifies if this step is optional or not, the entire process seems pretty self-explanatory to me, and it doesn't seem to leave any room for people to regard certain instructions as optional. Parsley Man (talk) 07:53, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
7. Support - Sk8er has developed a battleground mentality, they talk down to other editors who disagree with their approach without actually listening. Perhaps enforcing an edit summary requirement for them at AfD, CSD and PROD will teach them to collaborate a little better and kill some of the attitude. Mr rnddude (talk) 08:04, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
8. Support To be honest I would actually prefer that Sk8er leave edit summaries for everything. Edit summaries are always helpful. Another reason for supporting this is that it will help remind Sk8er that we do stuff by consensus here. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 08:19, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
9. Support A lack of edit summaries drives me up the wall. I am not a mind reader and cannot guess what the intent of people's edits are, and get annoyed at wasting time looking at the diffs to work it out. If I revert your edit with "not an improvement, no edit summary", it means I couldn't understand how you were trying to improve the encyclopedia, and is a cue to explain yourself more thoroughly next time. (As a bit of blatant advertising : support voters, consider adding {{User:Ritchie333/Userbox ES}} to your userpage :-) Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:03, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
10. Support - Per Ritchie333. People not using edit summaries also drives me up the wall and i often warn people for not using edit summaries when they need to. Class455 (talk) 11:14, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
11. Strong support per Mr rnddude and Ritchie. I might nick that userbox for my user page :D Patient Zero^talk 13:50, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
12. Conditional Support - Edit summaries are not always needed but are preferred. For minor edits (such as typos, adding commas or the like) we should give a pass, but for major edits (AfDs, adding/removing bulk/possibly disputed content) they should be added. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:40, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
13. Support for AFD - Speaking for myself I don't always leave an edit summary for trivial edits (unless it's to fix an issue I myself created such as broken syntax) but I think most people would be fine with that. For substantial edits like removing OR or for xdd/prods I think it's quite reasonable to request edit summaries. However I think the issue would be avoided if using the xFD tab to handle the nomination procedure as it will auto fill the summary and make the issue non existent - this may require the user to change their site optiionsSephyTheThird (talk) 16:21, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

    @SephyTheThird: Yep, but twinkle is required to do this but may change their preferences via Special:Preferences. KGirlTrucker81 ^{huh? what I'm been doing} 19:25, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

14. Support: Almost everyday I see no edit summaries in my lifetime mostly by IPs, newbies and some inexperienced editors. KGirlTrucker81 ^{huh? what I'm been doing} 19:25, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

    I think you may have misunderstood KGirlTrucker81. This restriction is only for this single editor as opposed to all editors. I do agree with you to a degree, in all fairness, but I will point out one flaw in your findings; a lot of experienced users don't use edit summaries all the time, especially when they're deemed unnecessary. I, for one, don't always use an ES when replying on a talk page, or my summaries are vague ("re" for reply, "ec" = edit conflict, "ce" = copyedit and so on and so forth). I don't think grouping IPs and new editors was a wise move on your part, either, as a lot of IP editors are experienced in editing. Patient Zero^talk 12:19, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

    Oh, I did misunderstood this a little hehehe :D KGirlTrucker81 ^{huh? what I'm been doing} 12:31, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

    Indeed - thanks for correcting my formatting, as well as responding in a civil and gracious manner. Patient Zero^talk 12:36, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

15. Support for any AFD, PROD, CSD, or related edit. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 19:59, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
16. Support. I use edit summaries for any of my edits unless it involves updating a show airing live. Even for minor typos or corrections, ce is the way for me. Any editing involving deletion or nomination should require the use of edit summaries. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 20:16, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
17. Support, because it makes all of our lives easier...TJH2018talk 21:05, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
18. Support. Good idea to impose edit summaries in special cases. Clearly improving cooperation. Polentarion Talk 22:12, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
19. Support. This statement, Yeah, no. Overturned. I have no obligation to make life easy for you, plus the fact that he talks about a "defeat" at AFD says volumes of Sk8rprince's battleground mentality. People have requested nicely that edit summaries be used and there's no real reason not to. The whole digging in of heels in refusing to use them is juvenile. We are not here to cajole you nor coddle you. If you don't like the consensus then you are free to leave. Blackmane (talk) 00:21, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
20. Support as a perfectly reasonable requirement for Sk8ter at this point. It would be asinine to force newbies to use edit summaries, but Sk8ter has 5 years and 1700 edits under his belt - this shouldn't be hard. And the restriction is appropriately narrowed to where the problem is - deletion proposals. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:48, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
21. Support as this is a reasonable request for nominations and there is no reason not to include a summary of what they did with their edits. The user also says they will be "less inclined to comply" if they are required to use edit summaries which seems to be fishing for a block. Competence is required. -- Dane2007 ^talk 04:01, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
22. Support. Given that highly disturbing "List of articles I have deleted" on his userpage, this user absolutely should have visible accountability for every even-remotely deletionist move that he makes. He's also probably gunning for a t-ban from deletions if deletion is his raison d'etre on Wikipedia. Softlavender (talk) 10:11, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

    I second that, particularly since our Deletion policy (emphasis mine) states "If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting the page." His AfD stats are not too great, particularly all those "Delete (nom) / Keep" entries. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:52, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

    With a nomination success rate of under 50% [42] I would support a ban from nominating articles for deletion at all. (excepting the usual like attack pages etc.) Jbh^Talk 17:01, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

    Jbhunley, that stat really means nothing at all and you could say the same about me; if someone was in line with consensus all the time at AFD I'd assume they were playing the game of jumping on once the result was obvious to try to manipulate the statistics, since by definition if something is at AFD the result isn't a foregone conclusion and there's room for debate. ‑ Iridescent 17:09, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

    @Iridescent: "Not all the time" is very different from having 42% of your nominations fail. (Note, my link was to nom only not to all !votes) That says to me either the editor has a very poor understanding of WP:DEL/WP:N or that they do not do a WP:BEFORE or both. Every AfD takes considerable editor time to deal with and making consistently poor nominations is disruptive. Jbh^Talk 17:19, 25 November 2016 (UTC) Added wikilink to Generic you to make my statement excruciatingly clear. Jbh^Talk 14:31, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

    Jbhunley, if you have a problem with me you can fucking well start a stand-alone discussion about it laying out your evidence, not try to hijack a thread on a different topic to attack me for my "very poor understanding of WP:DEL/WP:N". I'll note that over a decade as admin, arb, CU. OS etc, every piece of mud that could be flung at me has been flung at me, and "lack of understanding of deletion" has never been among them, making me strongly suspect that the problem is with you, not me. ‑ Iridescent 19:07, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

    @Iridescent: cool your jets. I did not make any accusations against you - except now possibly a lack of reading comprehension. The subject under discussion is Sk8trPrince and unless you have a 42% miss rate on your AfD nominations is takes a massive lack of understanding of the English language to think that the subject switched from him to you. If I ever do have a problem with your editing, and I have never seen any reason to suspect I will, I will make it very clear to you. Jbh^Talk 19:21, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

23. Support This really should be a requirement for process-oriented edits such as AfD, etc. And it's just plain collegial and helpful. The user's only justification for refusing to be helpful and collegial in this way amounts to "nyaah, nyaah, nyaah, you can't make me," which makes one think there may be more trouble in his future. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:22, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
24. Support. It's too easy for other editors to miss deletion proposals when they are not marked. And it's also important for them to be clearly visible in the article history so that we can avoid prodding things that have already gone through a prod or afd process. But I think everyone should do this, not just Sk8er. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:19, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
25. Support Everyone should be doing this. This editor has been specificly asked to and refused even going so far as to say below "That honestly makes me even more inclined to not comply...". That is simply a crappy attitude and regardless of their "Fine, I concede. I'll use edit summaries when I'm noming and adding speedy tags, as well as big edits. Can we please end the discussion already??" above, I think they need an actual, enforceable sanction or else we will see this problem again. (see aforementioned crappy attitude) Jbh^Talk 17:01, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

    @JNH: How would you like it if I called you a piece of crap, huh? WP:PERSONALATTACK right there. Your vote should be dismissed immediately. --Sk8erPrince (talk) 13:57, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

    @Sk8erPrince: I said you have a crappy attitude and your willful misinterpretation and misrepresentation of my statement is, to me, a clear confirmation of my opinion. I make no representations about your quality as a human being because I neither know nor care about your existential value only about the way you have conducted yourself - and that has been, again in my opinion, poorly. Jbh^Talk 14:16, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

    He said you had "a crappy attitude". Next time, don't jump to conclusions. Your behaviour is just getting worse. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 15:58, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

    • Note Sk8rPrince has deleted their statement earlier in this thread wherein they agreed to make use of edit summaries [43]. Their original statement is quoted in green above. Jbh^Talk 23:46, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
26. Support to help give others a sense of what is being done within edits. I know this is just focused on one user, but do feel that a lack of edit summaries in general regardless of who doesn't use them can get really irritating. Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:40, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
27. Support - I have been interacting with him for quite a while now and despite the project's best efforts it appears he cannot seem to shed his mentality that AFD is a battleground where more articles being nominated and deleted is a good thing. It doesn't help that he once nominated an article I created for deletion without even bothering to notify me (moot anyway since the AfD was quickly withdrawn). To be brutally honest, given his behavior at AfDs, I think a more appropriate action at this time is at least a temporary ban on AfD nominations. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 05:12, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
28. Support - The request for summaries advising of deletion nominations was reasonable; the response has been antagonistic and battlegroundy. "You're not the boss of me, there is no rule" really doesn't cut it for me. So let's make a specific rule to combat unreasonable, non-cooperative behavior. Carrite (talk) 14:18, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
29. Support - if guidelines don't already call for edit summaries when nominating an article, they should (with allowances for the occasional lapse, of course). Jonathunder (talk) 16:08, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Strong oppose: Serious violation of WP:NOTGETTINGIT. Previous discussion regarding the exact same concern has already been closed by Admin Jauerback, with the closing message being "Edit summaries would be nice, but they aren't required". You could try and encourage me to use them, but I could refuse on the grounds that it's not compulsory. So what I'm seeing here is y'all ganging up on me to force me to comply on something that isn't compulsory? That's WP:THREATEN right there. That honestly makes me even more inclined to not comply, more so than before, wherein I simply thought adding an edit summary is such a hassle. --Sk8erPrince (talk) 08:49, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

   Sk8erPrince, this is not a legal threat? so... WP:THREAT doesn't apply. Mr rnddude (talk) 10:21, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

   So what? I think assembling between 50-100 properly formatted citations to prepare an article through GAN is a "hassle" but I don't go onto WT:GAN decrying the process as a load of rubbish. Also, above you wrote "I have no obligation to make life easy for you" - be careful you don't get blocked, as somebody might fire that back at you as a response to your first unblock request! Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:07, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

   Sk8erPrince, I suggest that you reread policies and guidelines. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 20:23, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

2. Oppose: On the grounds that this shouldn't be a special rule applied to one editor we don't like. This should either be made policy, or this particular WP:STICK should be dropped. 206.41.25.114 (talk) 17:33, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

   Editing restrictions are imposed on editors which have shown to be disruptive in certain areas. This is not because we don't like them, this is so editors can move on without worry of others. Restrictions can also always be removed at a later date by the community. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:40, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

3. Oppose: Everyone should leave meaningful edit summaries. It would be unfortunate if one editor suffers because this is a test case. An edit summary should anticipate the questions that subsequent editors will have. Edit summaries should make plain what you have done. If you have done very little, leave an edit summary that calls attention to the tweaking you have made. If you have made an edit that you can anticipate that others may object to in whole or in part, your edit summary should allude to the change you've made, as well as a brief argument or justification for why you think your edit is called for. It is not uncommon to see useless edit summaries or no edit summaries at all. But this should be addressed project-wide and not on the backs of individual editors who may come under fire. Bus stop (talk) 02:42, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
4. I honestly don't see how not using an edit summary here is disruptive. Very few editors (at least the ones nominating manually) actually use edit summaries when adding the AfD template. ansh666 21:05, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
   • To me, it's mainly that it's hard to look at one's watchlist and tell something has been nominated. Given that AfDs are about all he does, it seems reasonable to ask that he make it easy for others to figure out when things are being nominated for deletion. Hobit (talk) 22:30, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
5. Strong Oppose As others have said, there is no requirement on edit summaries for anything. As a result, in my view it is unreasonable to apply this as an edit restriction just on @Sk8erPrince:. If this is to be a requirement it needs to be passed as a requirement on all wikipedia editors. Also he can't be said to have violated anything retrospectively since there is no such rule in place and you can't be said to have violated a proposed future rule that has not yet been enacted.
   
   It sounds as if this may be an omission in the guidelines that needs to be rectified for the most significant edits such as nominated an article for deletion. But at the moment all that can be done is to ask him as a matter of courtesy if he would be so good as to leave edit summaries to help the rest of us. He has said also "Fine, I concede. I'll use edit summaries when I'm noming and adding speedy tags, as well as big edits. Can we please end the discussion already??". [44] What more is needed? If we take this further I think it should not be as an action against any individual editor but rather as an action to change the guidelines themselves. Then after the guidelines are changed, then editors could be required to follow them.
   
   As for other allegations against him, I suggest if anyone thinks there is anything of substance to be discussed they be raised as separate actions. Too many of these ANI cases become long discourses about all percieved flaws of the user concerned, and this is not the way to administer justice. It needs to be focused on some particular issue and on this particular issue "User:Sk8erPrince not using edit summaries when nominating articles for deletion" I think there is definitely no need at all for any sanction or further action according to the guidelines. He has been asked as a courtesy to provide the edit summaries from an article that he nominates for deletion, and has agreed to do so. Case over surely. Robert Walker (talk) 21:18, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
6. Oppose sets a slippery slope and bad precedent on "it's not a rule but because I think you're breaking an imaginary rule so you'll have to follow my imaginary rule". It cannot be enforced if the "rule" is broken in the future. Plus how do you determine if it's broken? Of all the years I spent here, I learned one thing and it is that you cannot please everyone and there will always be people who have an axe to grind and enforce a really strict rule on what is ok and what is not. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 06:46, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

   The proposal is not to enforce a rule, imaginary or otherwise. The OP provides examples of unhelpful behavior (it is unhelpful to nominate an article for deletion with no edit summary), together with polite requests to improve collaboration. The responses from Sk8erPrince above are what has prompted the proposal that the editor must use an edit summary for certain actions related to deletion. Collaboration is very important for the health of the community, and that is why there is strong support for the proposal. Johnuniq (talk) 07:13, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

   Exactly. 1RR is not a rule, it's a restriction to encourage collaboration. IBANs are not rules, they are restrictions to stop inherently negative interactions. TBANs/PBANs are not rules, they are restrictions to discourage persistent disruptive editing. Similarly, this proposal is not the enforcement of a rule, but a restriction to end disruptive editing (WP:DISRUPT) and encourage a collegiate/collaborative attitude (WP:EQ). Mr rnddude (talk) 07:26, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

7. Oppose - I had originally closed this thread because edit summaries aren't required, however others felt more discussion was necessary, so I reopened it. Needless to say, I'm kind of disappointed on what this is turning into. Sk8erPrince has definitely demonstrated some attitude and battleground issues in this thread alone, but requiring him to use edit summaries does not address any of those problems. This is an absurd restriction on one user as he could easily skirt it by leaving edit summaries that don't say much of anything and then here we are back again at ANI with a thread about his "poor edit summaries". I don't envy the new closing admin as most of the arguments above seem to be people's wishes towards a project-wide change, not in regards to one user. For the record, I believe that all users should use edit summaries, but requiring them isn't worth anyone's time enforcing. We all have better things to do. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 13:19, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

   I agree. The important distinction is not between leaving edit summaries and not leaving edit summaries but rather between leaving useless edit summaries and leaving meaningful edit summaries. Edit summaries are an important part of the project. Through edit summaries we have the potential to address some of the problems that plague the community. Edit summaries should be used properly. I am opposed to requiring Sk8erPrince to use edit summaries for the reasons you mention above. Bus stop (talk) 17:17, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

   Just noting that this only requires that he mark his edits that initiate a deletion action. He appears to be not doing so to make it harder for others that watch the page to notice that it is up for deletion. This is not a general requirement to use edit summaries in all cases, just where he has been disruptive by not using them. Hobit (talk) 22:11, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

8. Very strong oppose - edit summaries are not required. Trying to impose an editing convention on other users because it's convenient for you is especially poor form. If OP wants to see when a page in their watchlist is nominated for deletion, they can enable a script to do so and not badger other users. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:24, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
9. Prinicipled oppose- given that the community has previously smiled benevolently on inclusionists repeatedly lying in edit summaries, it boggles the mind that we are now considering punishing someone for merely omitting them. Reyk _YO! 14:51, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

   Say what? Can I ask for a bit of explanation of what this accusation of lying is based on? Yngvadottir (talk) 20:40, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

   Prominent Article Rescue Squadron celebrity caught repeatedly using edit summaries that deliberately obscured what he was actually doing, as well as misrepresenting the content of sources Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Colonel_Warden- nothing done about it of course. Same guy gets caught at it again Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive743#Colonel_Warden, and not only is it excused again with many smiles and pats on the back, but it's the one guy who tried to stop the misbehaviour that got kicked in the teeth. Since being purposely deceitful in edit summaries is OK, I don't think there's any call to punish someone for leaving no edit summary at all. Reyk _YO! 22:31, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

10. Strong Oppose, while I agree that not editing with a summary, especially after being asked to do so is not good, there is nothing against policy that was violated. If you feel that editing summaries should be required, or should be required for certain types of actions, then go to Village Pump Policy and request it. To do so here is punishing someone for something that is not wrong. 🔯 Sir Joseph ^🍸(talk) 16:08, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Discussion

Is it mandatory now to use an edit summary when sending an article to AfD? I've never used one and never will. Pages of importance are on people's watchlists, plus the discussions are grouped by category at AfD for anyone interested in saving something (or backing up the deletion argument for that matter). Is this now a blockable offense? Does the AfD guidance trump WP:EDITSUMMARY? Lugnuts ^{Precious bodily fluids} 11:54, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Some editors, such as Dr. Blofeld (talk · contribs) contribute enormously to the encyclopedia without leaving much in the way of edit summaries, but even then they leave one when necessary. Let me give you a typical example here. In this case, I assume the editor wanted to trim the sentence down and improve readability, but left it in a state of awkward grammar. Since I had no idea what their actual intent was, I was forced to revert. Perhaps with an edit summary, we could have worked out something else that was even better, but that was not to happen. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:15, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Well, WP:AFDHOWTO certainly seems to imply an edit summary is necessary. I've always followed the process to the last detail every time I nominate an article for deletion, and I certainly don't have any problems with it. Of course, this is a very subjective topic. I actually think it's a very interesting subject to raise at WP:VPP, since we're now talking about it. Parsley Man (talk) 02:06, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

• Suggestion WP:TWINKLE can be turned on in preferences. It makes any XFD nomination extremely simple, all you have to do is type in your reasoning and it internally does everything else, create the page, add it to the log, inform the page creator, and yes, leave an edit summary. Why anyone wouldn't use it for nominations is beyond me. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:01, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

• I agree that WP:TWINKLE is the simple solution here. To the people opposing the overwhelming WP:CONSENSUS for Sk8erPrince to use edit summaries, in my mind it's either that or a TBan on deletions (or both), because he's become that disruptive, as all of the WikiProject members have attested. Softlavender (talk) 13:26, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

• Honestly, at this stage, whether you support or oppose, it does not matter anymore. I have already started using edit summaries for all the aforementioned categories, and also for expanding bios. However, I will say this: Any discussion that has nothing to do with edit summaries should be ceased immediately. Seriously, some of you even had the audacity to give me your unneeded comments on what I wrote on my profile. That's like, none of your beeswax. Maybe you should learn to mind your own business? And given that no consensus is needed for my willingness in using edit summaries when necessary, this discussion should also be closed down right now, given that any more comments and votes will prove to be completely substanceless. No, you didn't force me into submission; I myself have now seen the relevance in using edit summaries, and will use them appropriately, and when needed. If I'm willing to do it with my own free will, your so called restriction isn't going to affect me one bit~ --Sk8erPrince (talk) 16:53, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Here we go again with the WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude... - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:59, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Good God. This message was so unnecessary and mounts to incivility. I second Knowledgekid87 as well that Sk8erPrince is agreeing just to please the community and get over with it. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 19:12, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Cool story, bro. I'm not doing it to please the community. I'm doing it because I see the necessity in doing so, so that my AFDs could progress faster. But none of you managed to forced me into submission; try to keep that in mind. Check my latest contributions for verification if you don't believe me. And you wanna know what's unnecessary? This entire discussion. Could you remind yourself what the proposal is even about again? OH RIGHT, it's about getting me to use edit summaries. Well, since I'm using them now, your unsizeable comments and borderline aggressions don't mean anything to me. --Sk8erPrince (talk) 00:57, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Takes petulance to a whole new level, doesn't it? However, the point does stand. Does a discussion concerning an editing restriction or sanction stay open if the editor in question has acquiesced, however petulantly or childishly, to abide by the community requirement that is under discussion? Blackmane (talk) 00:59, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Please do me a favor and stop bending around the facts. The FACT of the matter is, using edit summaries are not required. So what's this talk about abiding by "community requirements"? It's not even a requirement in the first place. As non-mandatory as it is, given that I now see how using them is speeding up my AFDs, I'm sure as hell gonna use them, of course. Also, I contest to your claim that I was "acquiesced" to the proposal. So you're saying y'all forced me into submmision? Blatant BS. Nobody could force me to do anything - not now, not ever. I'm doing it out of my own free will. Try to get that through your thick skull. --Sk8erPrince (talk) 01:27, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

You are stating what people have been seeing though that you could care less about the community's opinion regarding your editing. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:30, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

If the benefits of using edit summaries more often help meet my own ends, I don't see why I should be opposed to use them on the grounds that it's not mandatory. Is it really so hard for you to understand that I merely failed to see how it could benefit me before? People change, and for someone that's as flexible as me, changing sides and stances isn't hard at all. Again, we don't need this discussion to continue. It's absolutely pointless. --Sk8erPrince (talk) 01:37, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand some things. While Wikipedia has a lot of policies and guidelines which by and large every editor follows. There are also things, such as edit summaries, that are not explicitly laid out as being required. However, all of those can be trumped by a broad discussion by the wider community and whatever gains consensus, in effect, becomes a policy for that one editor. Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit but that has not prevented the community from banning editors from editing particular articles, just do a search for "Topic ban", "sanctions" or "restrictions" in the AN and ANI archives. All of those can be, and have been, levied on a single or even a group of editors. Failing that, there is the Arbitration Committee who have much broader powers to act on particular areas. The edit summary guideline may state that a summary is not required, but consensus from a wider community discussion does have the power to place a requirement on an editor to use edit summaries. Failure to abide by community imposed sanctions have resulted in sanctions as light as an indefinite topic ban to indefinite blocks and site bans. On Wikipedia, consensus overrules all. Blackmane (talk) 01:46, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't give a flying dang whether or not you manage to impose this sanction or requirement or whatever the heck you wanna call it upon me. If the end result dictates that this whachamacallit is placed onto me, then so be it. I don't care. I'm already doing what the proposal states, so your POV on the matter is useless. --Sk8erPrince (talk) 02:04, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Okay, I am reaching up to here with your attitude and I have to get it off my chest. If I get warned for civility, so be it. Will you stop with your arrogant comments? "Cool story, bro" is the most insulting thing I have been told and I have been called Nazi names. I have had enough with your condescending comments and I am reaching my limit as you are disrespecting plenty of users besides myself. This discussion is still ongoing. If you don't care, why are you still here? What I see that you're just conceding to please the outcome. You didn't give a flapping duck before and now you're agreeing? Seems far fetched to me. I am done with your insulting comments. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 02:15, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Bite me then, Canadian. If you wanna ignore the facts, then so be it. It's a FACT that recently, I've been expanding on stub articles rather than just AFDing. It's a FACT that I've started using edit summaries. If it benefits me, I'll do it. You're not me; don't go and assume my intentions and motivations for wanting to do the right thing. I'm not doing it to please anyone. Never had, never will. --Sk8erPrince (talk) 05:36, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Disruptive editing

This is a pattern, and the same WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality that has dominated some of the AfD discussions that Prince has been involved in. Here are some edits that have raised red flags with me: [45], [46], [47], [48], [49]. It is not productive, it is not collaborative, and bridges have already been burnt with multiple editors. [50], [51]. Im not saying that all of his AfDs have been unjustified, but seriously he needs to tone it down. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:57, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

As a participant in WIkiProject Anime and manga, I have to second that Sk8erPrince is very disruptive to the project. Our deletion sorting list is overwhelmed with his nominations (and many renominations), where in many of the cases it doesn't even seem like they attempted sufficient prior research into notability, and their combative attitude turned me off from participating in any of the discussions. (they're strongly focused on deleting articles rather than helping to assert the notability of them or other improvements) They do not have a history of being willing to collaborate with other editors, very contrary to Wikipedia's nature, and have been brought to ANI in the past for personal attacks. I'd like to reiterate Knowledgekid87's statement that many experienced editors have tried to reach out to them (just look at their talk page history) but they have not been receptive at all. I personally feel that deleting articles on non-notable subjects is good for Wikipedia, but Sk8erPrince's aggressive AfD crusade is not the way to go about it. Opencooper (talk) 16:11, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

I investigated the user a bit and he has displayed battleground tendacies quite often. He labels his works as victories or defeat, seems to hold a superior/inferior orientation, and I've seen him outright belittle people that disagree with him. As for what can change, the user needs to adopt a different kind of mentality when dealing with people. DragonZero (Talk · Contribs) 19:18, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

He has definitely been disruptive in many ways. I think he wants to contribute constructively to WP:ANIME and other areas, but he needs to tone down the combativeness. All of us likely have things here that irk us in one way or another, but we someone muddle through and are able to work together (mostly) peacefully. I know there are some policies and guidelines here that I think should be different, and I've participated in a number of discussions regarding them. However, in the end consensus decided how things are to be here (at least for now), and I go along with that. Sk8erPrince needs to learn to play in the great sandbox without constantly throwing sand in others' faces. Most or all of the issues could be addressed simply by extending a courteous attitude toward everyone else. Politeness goes a long way. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 20:04, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Off-topic
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I should probably mention that earlier today I removed something from his userpage that I thought could be considered offensive; though I also decided if he reverted and kicked off at me for it, I would just take it on the chin. And while "This user is strictly, unquestionably, undeniably and exclusively heterosexual" isn't directly homophobic, it does leave me with unpleasant overtones of it (after all, if you're comfortable with your sexuality be it gay, straight, bi, asexual, not a clue etc, why would you need to assert it loudly?). And a section of "Pages I've deleted myself" (which is factually wrong as he has to ask an admin to do that) isn't really what Wikipedia is about (not to mention the polar opposite of User:Ritchie333/saves) Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 22:13, 23 November 2016 (UTC) So my sexual orientation matters to the so called overall problem since when? This discussion should honestly be closed down. It's just WP:NOTGETTINGIT. Basically a closed discussion that is perpetuated. --Sk8erPrince (talk) 03:31, 24 November 2016 (UTC) Again throwing WP articles at people when you don't know what it actually means... Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 04:42, 24 November 2016 (UTC) Starting to reach levels of IDHT, more than 20 editors disagree with the close. That should tell you something. Mr rnddude (talk) 04:51, 24 November 2016 (UTC) It matters not to me, but it clearly matters to you as you have put it at the top of your userpage. I'll clarify that I find it offensive that you trivialise homosexuality into a bit of dodgy porn you like watching, and recommend reading Oscar Wilde and Alan Turing (both good articles, incidentally), from top to bottom to understand why I might feel that way. (I'd say "why don't we just discuss it over a pint?" but you don't appear to like those either). Anyway, bottom line is if you put right-wing views on your userpage, expect blowback. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:22, 24 November 2016 (UTC) if you put right-wing views on your userpage, expect blowback. - That is both dumb and bigoted. Right-wing does not equate to isms and phobes. Economic conservatism is a right-wing position, yet has nothing to do with intolerance. How absurd to clump in the economic right in to such a category. Mr rnddude (talk) 13:32, 24 November 2016 (UTC) "This user opposes smoking", "This user opposes gambling", "This user opposes alcoholism" "This user opposes drug abuse or recreational drug consumption", "This user dates for the very purpose of resulting in marriage" .... all that's missing is "This user believes the Daily Mail is the best newspaper in the world" - jeez. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:55, 24 November 2016 (UTC) What does that have to do with what is being discussed? Sounds like you're trying to antagonize a user who is already pretty riled up. Primergrey (talk) 14:07, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

• Given the diffs and so forth, I agree there is a definite problem here with belligerence, hostility, failure to do WP:BEFORE, and general disruptiveness. I'd like to re-iterate my stance that a topic-ban on deletions may be in order here. Let's see if the user can edit productively and collaboratively outside of deletion issues. If he cannot, there may be an inherent attitude problem that is a CIR issue. Softlavender (talk) 13:53, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

• Perhaps too soon for a TBAN, but, I think this statement exemplifies the failure to comply with AfD procedures; The quality of the article DOES matter; how else would I know whether or not the subject is actually notable? - By doing your due diligence (in terms of a sort of Wiki-law) and researching the topic before nominating an article for deletion. Mr rnddude (talk) 14:51, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

The thing is, if you look at his history, that's virtually all he's doing, and he's very belligerent and disruptive about it, and as Jbhunley notes far above, he has a very low success rate. At this point he does not appear to be here to build an encyclopedia, and a topic ban would allow him to demonstrate that he is, and would allow him to demonstrate that he can collaborate with other editors. Softlavender (talk) 19:45, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't disagree with you - in fact I agree with you. What I think is that given the above proposal and the fact that it barely managed to budge the editor from their position, dropping a TBAN on them would just drive them away and confirm to them their prejudice that we're a bunch of witch hunters. Seriously, their comments already describe is in basically synonymous terms. If the above proposal were to pass then it might slowly drive the point home that their approach is not the right one - if not, TBAN away. Although, philosophically, being a deletionist by definition would make you "not here to build...", but rather, "here to demolish". Not necessarily a bad thing, given that bad articles on non-notable topics are like a fungus around here, just seemingly antithetical to the stated premise - i.e. "build". Mr rnddude (talk) 20:07, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

"Low success rate"

Did I just hear you right? So being able to get rid of 30 articles myself is equivalent to low success rate? Are you kidding me? --Sk8erPrince (talk) 13:48, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

You're proving everyone's point there -- bragging that you've "been able to get rid of" articles. That's the problem. You are fixated on destruction, belligerence, and hostility instead of collaboration, cooperation, and building an encyclopedia. That mindset has caused a lot of problems. (And by the way, in terms of "success rate": When at least half of your nominations don't end up getting deleted, that means you are nominating far far too many articles, far too easily and far too quickly.) Softlavender (talk) 14:01, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yes it is. As comparison I have nominated nearly 200 articles and have a miss rate (either a keep outcome or withdrawing a nomination because people found sources I could not) of about 10% [52]. That, in my opinion, is right on the cusp of acceptability for a regular nominator and a 15% miss rate would indicate a need to reevaluate how one assesses an article for nomination. You have a miss rate of over 42% and a success rate of under 50% [53]. To me that says you do not have an adequate understanding of WP:DEL and WP:N, that you do not do a WP:BEFORE or both. An AfD takes considerable time to process and regularly making bad nominations is disruptive because of that. Before you nominate an article for AfD you should spend some effort to see if it can be saved or at least whether there are sources out there that would allow someone else to save it. Hell, just taking the time to run it through {{find sources}} will screen out many articles that are poor but should not be nominated.

Even if you are a hard core deletionist the goal is not to see how many articles you can delete but rather to identify articles which, be they non-notable, spam or whatever, do not meet Wikipedia's inclusion criteria and nominate them while not nominating articles which do. Jbh^Talk 14:58, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

It's not helpful to make a brag list of AFD's that ended up being deleted. Also it would be more helpful to learn how to use the delsort tools so that AFD's are properly categorized and Wikiprojects properly informed, as well as how to properly close a withdraw from nomination, as not following that process has caused a lot of extra work on us other editors. Also, give articles some notability tags first so people can react to that and work on them. Same with no/poor sources and cleanup-biography tags. Place those first. Let them sit for a while, and those that haven't been addressed in any timely manner (like over a year with no efforts) are more likely to get better consideration at AFD time. You can still AFD the egregious non-notables. I also agree find sources should be used a lot more as part of WP:BEFORE as well as looking at the JA wikipedia articles to see if it can be potentially transferred over if those are sourced better. Also add find sources and search under the Japanese names. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 03:42, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

What bothers me Angus is that Prince does not appear to be a new user [54]. While he only became confirmed in 2016 I see edits going back to 2012. [55] It is just hard to believe in all that time that he hasn't learned basic wiki etiquette. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:20, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Possible topic ban from nominating articles for deletion?

I absolutely hate saying this but after months of communicating with the user and despite threads of discussion over at WT:ANIME involving virtually every active member of the project, and despite occassional promises of reform, Sk8erPrince's behavior has not changed at all. The fact that he considers AfD as some kind of battleground or war where having more articles deleted is seen as a victory is contrary to Wikipedia culture. Despite our best efforts, he has simply not changed this mentality and has even reacted strongly against even good-faith attempts at reform. Having been a Wikipedia editor for more than eight years, most of which have (in addition to working on anime and manga-related articles) mostly involved new page patrolling and vandalism reversion, I understand that the deletion process is a complicated one that can take months or even years to fully comprehend, but his mentality is not appropriate at this time.

I hate that it has come to this, but I am proposing at least a temporary topic ban or restriction of some kind for Sk8erPrince for nominating articles for deletion. Reading the above discussion and having been involved in the previous discussions, I am aware that such a restriction has risks and that rather than discouraging him it might only make him feel that he is being discriminated against by the larger Wikipedia community. However, my feeling (which I have held for several months) is that such an action is ultimately necessary for the greater good of the encyclopedia. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 05:20, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

• Support topic ban from PROD, SPEEDY, and AFD - I want to see if Prince can work with others to build an encyclopedia. There are hard core deletion editors out there on Wikipedia, but this case crosses the line into vindictiveness. Prince's attitude during this ANI discussion has also been of issue with the "I could really care less" attitude. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:31, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
• Comment @Narutolovehinata5: A "topic ban or restriction of some kind for Sk8erPrince for nominating articles for deletion" is not an enforceable sanction. If there is to be a sanction it should be either something like a) a ban on nominating any articles for deletion excepting attack pages and blatant vandalism. Appealable after 6 months or b) a ban on nominating articles for WP:AFD. Appealable after 6 months. Jbh^Talk 15:43, 28 November 2016 (UTC) Last edited: 16:05, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

@Jbhunley: I was vague about the possible kind of restriction because I was thinking exactly what kind of ban/restriction to be enforced would be discussed in this discussion. But your proposal seems reasonable, although what I had in mind is quite similar to yours (a temporary ban on nominating articles for deletion except for blatant cases). Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 22:35, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5: Before people get too far into the support/oppose process I would suggest that you amend your proposal to include wording like in a or b above or something else specific which you think is appropriate. Based on the discussion and their nomination stats I would probably propose b if I were proposing something but you may have more experience with the editor which would lead you believe a broader restriction is needed.

In any case the proposed restriction needs to be spelled out clearly enough that people know what they are !voting for and so the closing admin knows what to implement. Jbh^Talk 22:47, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose- I have to agree with JbH here. A "restriction of some kind" is far too vague to be enforcable. What makes this even more irksome is that the user in question has been savagely attacked for following the rules as they're written (see recent business about NPASR) and now we're going to impose an extremely hand-wavey one? Nope. Reyk _YO! 15:51, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Reyk: The nominator has changed the scope of the proposal, and JbH has !voted "Support topic ban from PROD, SPEEDY, and AFD" lower down in this same section. Softlavender (talk) 02:28, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support until he's shown competence in the steps I've outlined above: tag notability/sources/cleanup-biography and assume good faith on editors, doing WP:BEFORE, and filing AFDs properly with a delsort, he should only AFD the egregious ones. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 18:43, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support: I was involved with a highly similar situation a few years back where we were dealing with a user who was simply ignoring policies and would not reply or even comment on their user talk page when approached by others to get them to comply. They weren't being disruptive, by the technical definition, they were simply operating by their own rules and then ignoring anyone who asked them to obey the rules, or least the etiquette, of this site. Such users can be extremely frustrating to deal with and usually need a bucket of cold water to knock them into seeing that their behavior needs to change. -O.R.^Comms 21:58, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

• Support topic ban from PROD, SPEEDY, and AFD. The editor just doesn't get it, and as is very clear on this ANI, still doesn't get it. Let's see if he can edit productively and collaboratively outside of those parameters. Softlavender (talk) 03:26, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Ok, keep lying yourself and deny the facts all ya want, then. We can do this all day. I have been doing other sorts of editing besides AFDing, and that's a fact. --Sk8erPrince (talk) 06:03, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

• Support topic ban from PROD, SPEEDY, and AFD Though I'm now at the point I think a long-term block is a better choice, this is a good first step. The CIVIL violations found above (the struck text) combined with the text that he's just removed rather than struck make me believe this editor is a net negative. Hobit (talk) 17:04, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support topic ban from PROD, SPEEDY, and AFD I also agree with Hobit that a long term block may be more appropriate. Based on the belligerence expressed by the editor throughout this ANI and the continuing "you can't make me do nothin'" attitude I expect we may very well be back here shortly discussing a long or indefinite block. I hope Sk8erPrince proves me wrong on this but right now they are following the common path to indef as if they were on rails. Jbh^Talk 20:12, 30 November 2016 (UTC) On further consideration, I have not noticed any claims that they are being disruptive with PROD or CSD. If I missed it please let me know and I will reinstate. I do personally think Sk8erPrince should stay away from article deletion altogether for a bit but, as far as I know, they have only been disruptive because of bad AfD noms. Last edited: 14:44, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

After Jbhunley's comments

Update: Per Jbhunley's comments above, I am proposing specifically: 1. that Sk8erPrince is topic-banned from nominating any article for speedy deletion, PROD, or AfD for a period of one year, except for articles which constitute patent nonsense, vandalism, attack pages, and copyright infringing material. This ban cannot be appealed until after the sixth month; 2. that Sk8erPrince is to be mentored by one or more users regarding Wikipedia policies, guidelines and ettiqute, with the understanding that any unconstructive behavior could result in a block; while I understand that mentorship with these cases has a poor track record, it may be worth trying in this case.

The two proposals are to be voted on separately.

• Support for 1; weak support for 2 as proposer. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 22:55, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Why not just combine this with the section above? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:31, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Request to close

There are, I think, enough support/oppose opinions on the edit summary proposal for an uninvolved admin to determine consensus. If this continues much longer Sk8erPrince is, in my opinion, likely to talk themself into a self-inflicted indef with the battleground attitude so many editors have commented on. Maybe we will end up here again but we do a disservice to this editor by not closing this one way or the other, giving them time to take onboard the comments given here and hopefully allowing them to adjust their attitude without an open ended ANI hanging over them. Jbh^Talk 17:21, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

I agree that this particular matter is essentially closed. For whatever reason they have now decided to use edit summaries and indeed this can be seen through recent edits. I still think Twinkle would make things easier but that is for them to decide to use or not. Any other issues not related to this matter should be handled separately, clearly it is not productive to deal with them together.SephyTheThird (talk) 17:28, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

The problem I have is that it appears he isn't taking any of this seriously and it is all some kind of a game. With things like "No, you didn't force me into submission", and "your so called restriction isn't going to affect me one bit". - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:25, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Yeah, I tend to agree but really, what will continuing this accomplish? I think there is a consensus to require he make use of edit summaries when nominating for deletion. Personally I do not think he should be doing deletion noms, at least AfDs, but that has not really gotten, and is not likely to get this late in the thread, much input from uninvolved editors. The attitude will either resolve itself once the pressure is off from this long ANI or it will not. If it does not then an ANI, with evidence of how his attitude is a continuous issue, can be opened and sanctions examined. Right now I do not think there is really enough to call for a NOTHERE some such block but if this continues I can see them truely loosing their composure and getting blocked for it to no real purpose since the issue this ANI was opened for can be addressed now. Jbh^Talk 17:39, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

I just want to add this diff here: [56] one editor had asked him to use edit summaries. This wasn't enough, it took 20 something editors here before the message finally went through. I want this closed as well but not if nothing is learned from it or else this was a huge waste of all our time. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:44, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Oh, I just figured that I start using edit summaries by seeing the benefits in using them before y'all can force me into doing something I don't wanna do. I have this ability that many of you don't have - switching perspectives and stances to suit whichever situation or environment I'm thrown in. I don't suppose you have a problem with that? For doing the right thing? --Sk8erPrince (talk) 05:51, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

If you're asking if he's learned how to properly AFD, no he hasn't: [57] [58] and [[59] which he did this morning, still required a second editor to delsort it. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 17:29, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Delsorting is not required when you AfD. It is good to do but failing to do it is not disruptive. I have no opinion on the noms themselves since I do not know the standards for the topic. From what I see in the articles they do not seem to have enough independent reliable sources to pass WP:GNG and I do not know if the roles pass WP:NACTOR so based on a very superficial look and no web searches, that these are not inappropriate nominations. Jbh^Talk 17:49, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

But the AFD nomination itself isn't even put in the most basic of categories like people or actors/filmmakers, causing a second editor or a bot to have to guess. I agree he's picking more egregious ones now, but a lot of the previous ones in the past month that generated this complaint in the first place were not well thought out. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 18:09, 29 November 2016 (UTC).

I join in asking that this thread be closed. All the points to be made have been made. The editor has started to use edit summaries for deletion noms, albeit minimally and grudgingly. Either he will take onboard the various other suggestions that have been made, or he won't—I hope he will—but repeating them any further isn't going to help. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:07, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Nah, you have the wrong idea. I'm not using edit summaries grudgingly. I'm doing them out of my own free will to benefit myself and my AFDs. --Sk8erPrince (talk) 05:55, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

There also seems to be an emerging consensus for a topic ban but will leave that up to the closing admin. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:40, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Brad, the editor's continued belligerence, battleground mentality, and obsession with deletion are still major problems. There are proposals now running to address those issues, so it would be premature to close this ANI at this time. Softlavender (talk) 04:05, 30 November 2016 (UTC).

• Support closing of this AN/I. At this point we're traversing across the line of punitives. The last three AfDs have demonstrated competence in that they are appropriate nominations. I dont think there is now a valid reason to continue pushing for sanctions. If there are new or further problems than I could support a TBAN. Mr rnddude (talk) 04:18, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Mr rnddude, I submit that an editor who makes the following comments on this thread (in chronological order) is a highly uncooperative editor, and that that is a valid reason to continue to discuss possible further sanctions:

• I see, so this how it is... basically, you want me to start using edit summaries just to make it easier for you, for your own personal convenience. ... Yeah, no. Overturned. I have no obligation to make life easy for you.
• Well, we're not gonna continue this discussion. The end. Stop bothering me about it. It's my choice whether or not I want to use edit summaries, and honestly, if I see one more person nag me about it again, I'm reporting y'all as harassment.
• You could try and encourage me to use them, but I could refuse on the grounds that it's compulsory. So what I'm seeing here is y'all ganging up on me to force me to comply on something that isn't compulsory? That's WP:THREAT right there. That honestly makes me even more inclined to not comply, more so than before, wherein I simply thought adding an edit summary is such a hassle.
• No, you didn't force me into submission; I myself have now seen the relevance in using edit summaries, and will use them appropriately, and when needed. If I'm willing to do it with my own free will, your so called restriction isn't going to affect me one bit
• I'm not doing it to please the community. I'm doing it because I see the necessity in doing so, so that my AFDs could progress faster. But none of you managed to forced me into submission; try to keep that in mind.
• I contest to your claim that I was "acquiesced" to the proposal. So you're saying y'all forced to submit? Blatant BS. Nobody could force me to do anything - not now, not ever. I'm doing it out of my own free will. Try to get that through your thick skull.
• Is it really so hard for you to understand that I merely failed to see how it could benefit me?
• repeated here: [60]
• Bite me then, Canadian. .... I'm not doing it to please anyone. Never had, never will.
• y'all can['t] force me into doing something I don't wanna do.
• Ok, keep lying yourself and deny the facts all ya want, then. We can do this all day.

-- Softlavender (talk) 06:45, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Softlavender I understand exactly where you're coming from, and I myself am extending my good faith "to within a whisker of absurdity". I think that Sk8ers most recent edit to this page - striking all of their comments and backing off from the discussion - and their respectful response to my comment on their talk page are encouraging signs that they want to just let this go and move on. As I've said before, if disruption continues from here on out - act accordingly, but, let's give them a chance. They want to do AfD, fine no problem. They're finally willing to use edit summaries, good. They appear to be vetting their noms more thoroughly, excellent. Mr rnddude (talk) 07:08, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

You missed where they're canvassing another admin to close this thread, here. Personally, I wouldn't be averse to this discussion being closed with no action taken. As Newyorkbrad has said above, the point of this thread was to get them to use edit summaries and the threat of a restriction seems to have done the trick. Placing that restriction on them now would be punitive. They have an attitude problem, that much is clear, but any number of editors have varying degrees of abrasiveness in their day to day interactions but their productivity and contributions generally outweigh their character traits. Blackmane (talk) 13:03, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose close. There is clearly an issue. They have a battleground mentality and they have an attitude problem as pointed by Blackmane. "Bite me then Canadian."??!!! How is this in any way appropriate? I'm nearing 18 years in age, and I don't act this way. Their constant arrogant and snarky comments have gotten me up here. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 14:27, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

  @Callmemirela: It is clear he is trying to get under your skin, I would go with WP:DENY for those types of comments. Stay above the fray =). - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:36, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

  @Knowledgekid87: I should have done that earlier, but oh well. Since my last reply to them, I have had no interest in communicating with them anymore. Thanks for the advice. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 14:39, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

• Semi-support close - I don't know what keeping this open much longer will do so at this point it might be for the best to wait and see. I saw that Prince struck his edits here but he has to know that he has angered a lot of editors. This is not good for the encyclopedia, and it goes against our collaborative goals. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:46, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

• I agree with Hobit below, keep the T-ban discussion open. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:10, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

• Support I'd prefer the TBAN thing go a bit longer, but frankly it's a bit of a mess and so I'm fine with the whole thing closing if need be. Hobit (talk) 17:08, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Uncivil discourse by User:Elvey

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

When asked for sources here they respond Find someone else to harass, please. I've written a comment on the talk page. Which I don't need to quote sources to do. And you have no business demanding. Please go away. (Ditto? Willful blindness†)

When I commented "What you added does not belong in the section on "causes" and the HuffPo is not a very good source." the responded "You are being rude. "[61]

Claiming harassment were their is none IMO is not appropriate. Others thoughts? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:18, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

I have asked James to be civil - to answer several reasonable questions, but he thrice avoids answering them - three bright line violations of the WP:CIVIL policy. Instead he mines my edits for dirt, misquotes me, and brings it here to ANI. And yet I'm the one with the battleground mentality? Why the incivility, folks?

The fact is, I had already provided a source which even editor who made the comment I was responding to (Ronz) later said is high quality. From http://www.berkeleywellness.com/about-us:

Berkeley Wellness, in collaboration with the University of California, Berkeley, School of Public Health, is the leading online resource for evidence-based wellness information.

We rely on the expertise of top researchers at the University of California, as well as other physicians and scientists from around the world, to translate leading-edge research into practical advice for daily living.

The editors and editorial board of both the Wellness Letter and Berkeley Wellness review the latest research to clarify the often conflicting and superficial health information presented by the popular media. We don't promote faddish diets or other anecdote-based regimens. Nor do we repeat conventional medical advice from mainstream health organizations or pharmaceutical companies.

Again, I had already provided a source. I had started a section on a talk page specifically to engage collaboratively with other editors - to discuss a section that the subsequent discussion shows there is consensus for. I started a subsection, Talk:Dean_Ornish#What_to_call_it. Ronz often asks for sources. That's fine, if terse, when content is proposed and none has been offered or is evident as in that case. But that was not the case here. While Ronz should have noticed the source, I think I did overreact, and apologize. Given tenseness due to James' recent incivility, the election, etc, I ask for compassion and fairness. --Elvey^(t•c) 00:23, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

I was going to say, mildly uncivil, then I scrolled up and saw this reply to Alexbrn's quite reasonable request: "You ignored my question‡, again. That is not being wp:civil. Well, at least we see in your comments consistent... willful ignorance, chronic incivility, and trolling. Obviously you're not here to build an encylopedia. I will thus ignore you. Go away, please. --Elvey(t•c) 08:54, 11 November 2016 (UTC)". Apart from the blatant unjustified personal attacks, they did not seem to actually understand what Alexbrn asked for, despite a further explanation. Looks like a competance issue coupled with a basically uncivil approach to other people. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:07, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Likewise, I'd already provided sources, but Alexbrn is doing the same thing as Ronz: acting as if I haven't, and like James, acting as if WP:CIVIL doesn't apply to them. They violate WP:CIVIL, which states in part, "Editors are expected to be reasonably cooperative, ... to work within the scope of policies, and to be responsive to good-faith questions." I wonder how much, uh, off-wiki communication there is among the crowd of editors who always seem to show up with the same unverifiable personal attacks/to defend each other. --Elvey^(t•c) 00:23, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Just because you do not like the answers you get is not a violation of WP:CIVIL which from going back over your contribution history over the years appears to be your 'go to' method of disregarding editors you are in conflict with. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:52, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Please try not to beat up your spouse - Unless they are willing to commit to engaging in a civil manner, their editing privilidges may need to be removed. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:17, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

I'd already further explained and removed the comment and resolved the dispute before I ever even saw a notification of this thread. --Elvey^(t•c) 00:23, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Only in death, could you please adjust the quotation? Your message and the quote don't match up. Thanks. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 13:24, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Que? They do for me. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:28, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Lo siento. It didn't look like it to me. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 13:36, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Ah I think I know what you mean, no I wasnt linking to the specific section/comment position on the page, just the diff (as the comment can be seen at the top on the right). Regards, Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:07, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

• Of note: Elvey was community banned for 3 months beginning in February of this year for "promoting a battleground mentality" and for being "disruptive and needlessly aggressive". See discussion. Also note that Elvey has been blocked as far back as 2007 for creating a hostile editing environment, and blocked three other times for disruptive editing/personal attacks. See block log. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:56, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

• FWIW, user also apparently has an unhelpful penchant for leaving lengthy custom warning templates: [62], [63]. TimothyJosephWood 17:28, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

You violated BLP, so I warned you. I take copyright violations seriously. Snooganssnoogans repeatedly failed to, and had violated copyright. So a warning was warranted. You disagree. Why exactly? --Elvey^(t•c) 00:41, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

No one violated BLP. This was well resolved on the article talk, and amounted to a slight change of wording to be more in line with the source. The COPYVIO issue, while legitimate, was also well resolved on talk, and done so nearly a week prior to your leaving literally a page long warning for Snoogans. Neither was remotely necessary. TimothyJosephWood 01:51, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

• There has also been a lot of recent stuff at WP:AE. I can confirm from my own personal experiences all of the concerns being expressed here: example. I think we may be at the point where a site-ban may be necessary. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:01, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

I would urge administrators to enforce the section of WP:CIVIL which states, "Editors are expected ... to be responsive to good-faith questions," or remove it (or explain if I'm misunderstanding it). Either I'm mistaken or several of the diffs above show (me pointing out cases of) it being violated, frequently. It's not an essay or guideline. It's a core policy and the violations are blatant. Tryptofish has been trying to get me site-banned for ages, has their own problems, and is very closely associated with a site-banned sockpuppeteer who receives special treatment since retiring and a user who (again, violating WP:CIVIL) refused to answer when I asked him, "...Do you have any alternative accounts?" --Elvey^(t•c) 00:41, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes, and I smell bad, too.

Admins looking here should know that we are really dealing with much more than what Doc James called "uncivil discourse", although there is certainly plenty of that, too. There is a profound competence issue here (or could it somehow be very intense trolling?). What you see at the link I gave, to my talk page archive, as well as here in this ANI discussion, is Elvey consistently failing to have the slightest clue about why other editors have concerns about his editing, and then turning around and playing the victim, while accusing the other editors of pretty much what they said about him. If one looks at the details, Elvey's accusations always end up being meritless, to the point of being nonsensical. It's getting to be a time drain for the rest of us, and as I said above, we have gotten into site-ban territory. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:11, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

• Since Elvey just referred to me there, I'll make a statement. First, the subject matter here is content about industry corruption of medicine, which is a topic where Elvey kind of goes off the rails here in WP, and is directly related to their community-imposed extended block. The extended block was part of what triggered a reversal of Elvey's controversial/POINTy close on an RfC to change MEDRS.

Elvey's initial edit that this whole thing developed over, was on Oct 2, here, made to the Causes section of the Obesity article (a section for biomedical information). Their edit was about about the sugar industry paying for science that hid the cardiovascular damage that sugar does, and trying to turn attention away from contribution of sugar and diet to obesity through an academic organization called GEBN that solely emphasizes people exercising more.

On Oct 2, Doc James used the MEDRS-source from Elvey's edit elsewhere in the article in this dif, and after watching Elvey batter the talk page, on Oct 13 I implemented content about industry corruption with regard to obesity research based on Elvey's edit but with other refs in this dif in the "Society and culture" section, and added content to coronary heart disease article based on refs Elvey had brought in this dif.

I'll ask anybody to review what unfolded on the Talk page starting Oct 2 in this section: Talk:Obesity#More_diet_than_exercise.3F, with Elvey's battery/BLUDGEONing, with special mind to the following diffs: diff (with the one-word edit summary "adjusted" is inappropriate dismissive spraying of liquid. Would you be willing to give a shot at being more collaborative, Doc ?), diff (You say the refs are poor. Have you read them? Bloomberg? PBS? What are you on? AGAIN: I request that you stop removing content...), diff, and dif, with this weirdly repeated question throughout: The issue is clearly bigger than GEBN, as the disputed content shows-it's just the tip of the iceberg. Agreed?

Just today Elvey posted this proposal on Talk saying there was nothing about sugary drinks in the article, to which I responded here, providing the quote of the existing content covering that quite clearly.

There is a WP:CIR, bludgeoning thing going on here. Off the rails again with regard to industry corruption of medicine. Jytdog (talk) 09:00, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Ah, so that's why you kept refusing to answer the question. You were setting a trap. Your ability to game the system is impressive. Well played, sir, well played. I mean getting that tban imposed and then claiming you've connected adding information about health effects of sugar to the article on Obesity and a tban on COI - really, masterful gamesmanship. You win. I retire. --Elvey^(t•c) 11:04, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

At the ANI that led to their TBAN and the ANI that led to the community imposed extended block, Elvey responded by vanishing for a while - described here at the last ANI. Will probably be true to form again this time. Jytdog (talk) 12:28, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Reliable Sources/Forum shopping

All three sources appear to be WP:MEDRS violations. There are reviews on the causes. QuackGuru (talk) 00:58, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

QuackGuru:The sources (PBS and Bloomberg News) are only backing statements about patients' beliefs, so they can't be violating MEDRS. Also, you're forum shopping: You are rehashing a discussion on the talk page, where I said:

content that complies with WP:MEDINDY/BIOMEDICAL, which, I remind you, states :"What is not biomedical information?": "Statements about patients' beliefs regarding a disease or treatment" "why people choose or reject a particular treatment" "information about disease awareness campaigns", and is very reliably sourced. So follow up on the article talk page, not here, please! --Elvey^(t•c) 01:25, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

What you added appears to be about medical content not patients' beliefs. The causes section is for medical content, anyhow. I'm note sure what you mean by "forum shopping". Since you replied here then I will reply here to keep the discussion together. QuackGuru (talk) 01:29, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

User:Elvey, what is this about? QuackGuru (talk) 17:36, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Proposals

I would like to propose a WP:1RR for a year and a ban on comments on other editors motives broadly construed for User:Elvey. Others thoughts? User Elvey is also to be restricted to one account. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:17, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Doc, you are far too generous. We have an editor who has created numerous socks specifically to disrupt this Encyclopedia, been tbanned from COI and SPI, including numerous violations of those bans, and has been block numerous times for creating a contentious environment, including a recent 3 month break, for us, from their behavior. I think, at this point, enough is enough. We need to have a full on site ban. How much should the community have to endure out of this person?--Adam in MO Talk 03:16, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

I agree with AdaminMO. I'm tired of seeing his name at ANI and the complete lack of rehabilitation despite all of the previous discussions and sanctions. I think it's time for a site-ban, or at least an indef block. Softlavender (talk) 03:33, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

I would not be opposed to more restrictive measures if people feel this would not be enough. They have stated here that they are retired [64].Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:06, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

As is noted up above, Elvey's MO when faced with a sanction or Tban is to vanish for a while, so this may be more of the same (plus he hasn't posted any retired template on his account), so better to make it official I think. Softlavender (talk) 08:43, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

As per other editors, I believe the claim of retirement is meaningless, and I also believe that we have reached the point where enough is enough. I'm therefore making the following proposal. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:48, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

I just had a look through some of the diffs as someone not in any way involved in this dispute. Anyway the claim seems to be that he is being paid to edit from the University of California, San Francisco, a center of medical health care research. How is that at all credible? Surely universities don't pay their researchers to edit wikipedia. I don't see how it is a COI at all. It is also just an allegation. Nobody provided any concrete evidence at all that he is paid to edit wikipedia.

It seems to me well plausible that he is what he says he is, a retirement age medical chemist still working at his subject. There are many such. Many academics continue to work at their subject until they die well beyond retirement age. So the allegation of a COI seems far fetched to me, and I noticed that editors were divided in their opinion of whether it was a topic ban violation.

I can't see any discussion of him using socks, may have missed it but to edit from a university ip address doesn't make you a sock. And he has been a long term editor for over a decade.

The original complaint here was about uncivil discourse, and it doesn't seem right to me to relitigate past actions that have already been closed on the basis of uncivil discourse. The actual material mentioned here doesn't merit any kind of a ban I think, just a warning.

The discourse mentioned anyway in the statement of this case doesn't even seem particularly uncivil as things go here in wikipedia or indeed elsewhere too [65]. After all when someone spends a lot of time on wikipedia, it is natural for tempers to fray a bit at times. The only difference is that here every single word you say gets recorded for all time for posterity. I think we all need to develop a sense of perspective here and bit of tolerance not to jump on top of people whenever they show the slightest signs of irritation. Even if irritated frequently - it was only talk page activity and he got irritated because another editor asked him to provide a cite for something he said on a talk page. He is quite right that we don't have to provide cites for things we say on talk pages, only when added to the article. The way I read that encounter is that he knew that what he said was true, but to find the cites would involve him doing some minutes or hours of research to prove it to the other editor which he would of course do before adding to an article, but didn't feel he was required to do so on a talk page. It is understandable irritation in such a situation. I've seen far worse both on wikipedia and off wikipedia. I think that the most that's needed is a caution about uncivil behaviour. A site ban is way over excessive for uncivil behaviour in the form of momentary irritation during talk page discussions. If there is some other matter I think it needs to be brought up separately.

My main objection is that this seems to be an attempt to re-open discussions and decisions that have already been closed, and enforce stronger sanctions than were previously imposed, with nothing new added to them, all on the basis of a moment of temper on a talk page about an unrelated matter. Robert Walker (talk) 00:56, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Anyway the claim seems to be that he is being paid to edit from the University of California, San Francisco,...

Where would that be? On the Dean Ornish talk page, there's no mention I see of any such COI claim, nor even of UCSF itself -- unless you're confusing UCSF with UC Berkeley, which is an entirely separate institution with entirely different mission. And no mention of COI there, either.

So the allegation of a COI seems far fetched to me...

Unless there's an actual allegation of COI, this is, at best, irrelevant.

I can't see any discussion of him using socks...

Category:Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Elvey and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Elvey/Archive. It took me twenty seconds, but then, I'm a slow typist.

My main objection is that this seems to be an attempt to re-open discussions and decisions that have already been closed..

You appear to have confused Wikipedia and its decisions with the workings of a court of law. "Double jeopardy" is not a rule here; "past behavior being repeated", however, is a standard guideline.

A little familiarization with things would be a good start before commenting. --Calton | Talk 06:25, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Okay thanks, those are only suspected sock puppets though. It is easy to get suspected sock puppets with rotating ip addresses. Yes past behaviour repeated - but he is not repeating past behaviour, unless you are saying it is a site ban offence to get irritated on a talk page. Sorry I have just looked again at the archives, I misread what they said about COI. Pages of very complex discussion which I don't have the time to read through. It seems that the topic ban was to prevent him from engaging in COI claims against other editors rather than a COI allegation against himself. I got it back to front. What I thought was a COI allegation against him was rather a COI allegation by him against another editor [66]. But whatever the merits or otherwise, a moment of irritation or several moments of irritation on a talk page is not a reason to re-open investigation of COI or sock puppets surely or to propose a site ban. For that reason I have registered a strong oppose since that seems to be the sole reason given for re-opening the case and proposing a site ban. Robert Walker (talk) 16:37, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Okay thanks, those are only suspected sock puppets though...

From "Category:Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Elvey: "This category lists confirmed sock puppets of: Elvey"

and, from "Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Elvey/Archive:

...so I stopped reading the rest of your contrarianism. If someone can't be bothered to read a very short text or if obviously misrepresent what's there, there's really no point. --Calton | Talk 13:14, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Well there is something strange going on there. How are these edits sock puppetry? [67] and [68] - the only two edits of BlackAsSoot (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) to take one example from that list. And even "confirmed sock puppets" are not necessarily really sock puppets. With rotating ip addresses and many people who share addresses, then sock puppet investigation is prone to errors. Robert Walker (talk) 17:22, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Unless a user is taking extraordinary lengths to conceal their tracks, CheckUsers are able to link accounts to one another. CheckUser is not just a user privilege, it's also a tool that grants CheckUser admins the technical ability to look beyond just the behavioural, but also the underlying IP of the accounts in question. Blackmane (talk) 01:30, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Your attempts to rewrite reality notwithstanding, your claims about there being "only suspected sock puppets" is flatly, objectively false. Which speaks to either extraordinary carelessness regarding basic facts or an attempt to mislead, either of which gives me a reason to question your judgement here. I could throw in your attempt (back when you said you saw no mention of sockpuppetry) at a fact-free rationalization of how the sockpuppetry you didn't see could be excused. --Calton | Talk 01:50, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Proposed site ban

• I propose that Elvey be indefinitely site-banned by the community. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:48, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support This is a long time coming. --Adam in MO Talk 03:09, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support though sadly, his disruption extends to Meta and won't be affected by a site ban here. This user is unable to collaborate. --Rschen7754 03:18, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support per the above. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:52, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support. I feel that Elvey has been given more than enough rope over a long period of time. Regardless of whether his input or substantive opinions have or had any merit, his inability to collaborate or be civil or act civilly is too much of a continued liability, and per WP:CIR he must be shown the door. Softlavender (talk) 10:30, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
• Strong oppose This time around all he has been accused of is of getting irritated with another user in a talk page discussion. We need a sense of perspective here. He has not done anything that would lead to reopening of sock investigation (only suspected socks) or investigation of his tendency to engage in COI allegations against other editors. Getting irritated is not a site ban offence. I am not sure it even needs a caution, but if it does, that is all that is needed in my view (I say a bit more about this above). Robert Walker (talk) 16:14, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

• Robert Walker, I've read your comments above, and I'd like to reply. I think that it's a good thing to make sure that we are not acting rashly, so thank you for that. However, I believe that you misunderstand the reasons behind this proposal. It's not about double-jeopardy, nor is it primarily about rehashing anything about socking or COI, or about simple annoyance. It's about a long history of refusing to work with consensus in any way that even approaches good faith or at least comprehension, and of creating huge time drains for the rest of the community. (By the way, I see from your talk page that you have had a history with some of the editors here, so you did not really come here as a totally uninvolved editor, as you said above.) --Tryptofish (talk) 17:16, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

• Okay - if that is the reason I think that needs to be made clear. I think myself that the way ANI is often run at present is very confusing. People come here posting a complaint about one thing, and it then evolves to a completely different issue and along the way other allegations are made which are not countered. Then you get votes in the middle of that. I think it is quite possible that some of those who voted to support the site ban are under the impression that the ban was proposed to deal with issues of sock puppetry and COI rather than because of time drains. I don't think myself that time drains are sufficient reason for a site ban. After all time drains like that can as often be due to the accusing editors as the ones brought here. In particular I think to bring an editor here for being momentarily angry on a talk page is a time drain, we should have a sense of perspective and not bring every moment of anger to ANI. Yes you are right, I have now discovered that I had a previous interaction with one of the editors who previously also interacted with @Elvey: but they are not involved in the present discussion as yet, and they are not the reason I commented here. It was not this topic or in any way connected with it. I found this discussion by reading the ANI board. I think ANI can benefit from more comments from uninvolved editors and so I picked a couple of cases for today where I have no connection with the editor or any of the editors bringing the case and commented on them. I plan to do this occasionally as a way to help have more uninvolved editors bring their eyes to the disputes and would encourage others to do the same - I think that may help a lot. Robert Walker (talk) 17:44, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

This proposal has absolutely nothing to do with "time drains". How anyone could characterize it as that is genuinely beyond me. Softlavender (talk) 17:52, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Softlavender I assume it's based on - in part - the response from the actual proposer; and of creating huge time drains Mr rnddude (talk) 18:01, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Softlavender, I was speaking in terms of the same thing as when you said earlier: "I'm tired of seeing his name at ANI and the complete lack of rehabilitation despite all of the previous discussions and sanctions." --Tryptofish (talk) 18:12, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well the fact that that's the sole way that Robert Walker is characterizing it proves that he knows nothing about the situation [69] and should bow out of the discussion. Cluttering up ANI with wall-of-text uninformed opinions is a huge waste of everyone's time -- a time drain if there ever was one. Softlavender (talk) 18:16, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Oh, got it, thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:22, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Part of my justification for supporting is I do not see User:Elvey here reassuring us that his past behavior will stop. Or even acknowledging the concerns people are raising. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:03, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes, @Mr rnddude: thanks, I was just taking up @Tryptofish: there when they said: "It's not about double-jeopardy, nor is it primarily about rehashing anything about socking or COI, or about simple annoyance. It's about a long history of refusing to work with consensus in any way that even approaches good faith or at least comprehension, and of creating huge time drains for the rest of the community." - I was saying if that is what it is about, then strike COI and socking from the list of accusations before voting, as there has been nothing new since the last investigation. I think this should be started anew as a new ANI case if you think there is something to address. As it is now then people are voting here based on COI and sock allegations which are past closed cases here, and doing that on the basis of a user who got irritated on a talk page as the only new evidence brought to the case as a reason for a full site ban. This is not right. And as I said, time drains go both ways. The very act of bringing this user back to ANI just because they showed moments of irritation on a talk page is a time drain. If time drains should be disciplined then you need to look at the editors who bring trivial cases to ANI and discipline those if anything. Only after this habit of bringing trivial cases here then adding a string of allegations is dealt with, then we can see which editors are left that are brought here frequently with non trivial cases. You are trying to convince me to change my strong oppose vote, but sorry no you haven't convinced me at all. It remains as "strong oppose" Robert Walker (talk) 17:30, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Note: Unbolded double !vote. Softlavender (talk) 03:29, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

• Support. As others have mentioned, Elvey has already been given tons of rope, but their behavior has not improved. The history of ANI's for Elvey detailed above show a pretty robust timesink at articles and at ANI with continued battleground behavior, WP:POINTY editing, edit warring, hounding, etc. It's fair to say we're long past the end of the rope here. Kingofaces43 (talk) 22:14, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support - I have no tolerance for sockpuppetry, certainly not on the part of a long-time editor. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:14, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

• @Robert McClenon: do look at the sockpuppet claims - there is something very strange about them. Several of them have only two edits and hard to see how they can really be sock puppets. For instance these: [70] and [71] - are the only two edits of BlackAsSoot (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki). How is that sock puppetry? Also note that they are old stale claims from cases long closed if I understand right. Those are edits one from 2013 and one from 2012. The only new evidence here is of moments of anger on a talk page, nothing to do with sock puppetry. Indeed I don't understand why it was reason to bring the user to ANI at all. Robert Walker (talk) 23:31, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Reply - I fail to see what is strange about the sockpuppet evidence. I do see that the sockpuppetry occurred in 2013, but I also see that the Checkuser results were in 2013 with fresh data. It is true that I don't see a recent case of sockpuppetry, but I do see a continuing case of disruptive editing. I have filed sockpuppet investigations on the basis of only a very small number of edits. Sockpuppetry is not permitted, and is evidence of contempt for the rules of Wikipedia. Disruptive editing in 2016 is one thing. Sockpuppetry in 213 is another thing. The combination is the combination. So, no, I don't see anything strange about the sockpuppet evidence, only something improper, the sockpuppetry and the disruption. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:46, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Robert Walker, evidently you do not know how WP:CHECKUSER works; these are all confirmed and definite sockpuppets -- there is no guesswork about it. As I mentioned above, your uninformed opinions cluttering up this ANI are not helpful, and are a waste of time bordering on disruptive editing. Softlavender (talk) 03:37, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Softlavender: The checkuser tool alone cannot identify sockpuppetry; the tool can't differentiate between sockpuppetry and legit use of alternate accounts. Do you acknowledge that? I think that what @Robert McClenon: means. It's the only reasonable explanation. --Elvey^(t•c) 00:12, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Oh good grief, Elvey, this sort of dissimulation is what is getting you this site ban. Of course they were all CU-confirmed sockpuppets, not legitimate alternate accounts. Softlavender (talk) 02:13, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

User:Elvey doesn't even seem to know who is on which side. I was arguing in favor of a site ban. If he doesn't know the difference between me and Robert Walker, he doesn't know much. It is true that Checkuser as such doesn't distinguish between sockpuppets and legitimate alternate accounts, but legitimate alternate accounts must be declared. I have confidence that if the SPI admins blocked Elvey's socks, they knew that they weren't declared alternate accounts. I have no patience with sockpuppetry. I understand that Robert Walker may believe in patience with timesinks. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:40, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

• Regretful support, which I may likely change to an oppose if the user could come back and explain what the problem is and how they will avoid it in the future. Unfortunately that seems unlikely. TimothyJosephWood 03:56, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support - Based on what I see this user either just doesn't get it, or gets it but isn't doing anything to fix the problems. I don't know if the community would be open to parole or not. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:12, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support. Indefinite ban is called for due to continued battleground behavior, WP:POINTY conduct, edit warring, hounding of editors, etc. Time to show this user the door. Neutrality^talk 02:33, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support. I think this is overdue. Elvey has been persistently disruptive and the length of time this has been ongoing indicates that behavior which is inconsistent with a collaborative editing environment is unlikely to change. Deli nk (talk) 21:53, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support - This editor's persistent battleground behavior and inability to work with others far outweighs any positive contributions he has made to this project. He's been given many chances to reform. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:46, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

• NOTE: I removed a ridiculous "in-use" notice template added in this location by Elvey on 00:12, 1 December 2016 (UTC) [72]. -- Softlavender (talk) 02:20, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

I've moved a request by Elvey from a new section into a subsection of the main thread, to keep it all together. Blackmane (talk) 02:55, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

• I see the response below, six months is plenty of time to do some reflecting as I don't think much of anything is going to move the consensus needle here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:05, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support. The User:Elvey has a long history of disruption, ad hominem usage and battleground behaviour. She was instrumental in the downright vandalism of two articles last year (Carlos Castaneda & Richard de Mille) and had both pages indefinitely restricted to IP and some other registered editors, leaving her personal opinions to hold sway in said articles. Surely enough is enough - it's surprising that she has lasted so long. 92.20.180.249 (talk) 16:44, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

— 92.20.180.249 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:56, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Request

I've been asked not to retire. I request to be allowed a little peace to calm down and compose a response to the ANI entry above about me over the next day or so. I asked for some time to edit in peace but my request was promptly removed and not respected. Admin responses only, SVP.--Elvey^(t•c) 02:50, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Who has asked you not to retire? There is no such request on either your talk page or this lengthy thread. Softlavender (talk) 03:07, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm interested in reading what Elvey has to say. I don't know that it will make a difference, at this point. If Elvey wants to do a post-mortem on their career, I'd would like to read that. --Adam in MO Talk 04:47, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Maybe one of his sockpuppets sent him an email. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:42, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Although I'm no fan of sanctioning anyone without giving them an adequate opportunity to state their case, I think that we are in enough-is-enough territory. There is an obvious community consensus in favor of a site ban. Retirement means nothing, because editors un-retire all the time. And this ANI thread has been open a long time, plenty long enough for Elvey to "calm down and compose a response". And indeed there have already been plenty of his responses above. Instead of dragging this process out even longer, I would much prefer to get the inevitable over with. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:54, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Disruptive editing and BLP accusations with United States Senate election in South Dakota, 2016

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• United States Senate election in South Dakota, 2016 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

This article has had several persistent issues over the summer and continuing into this fall. On July 15th, 2016 an IP user appeared who added information about Kurt Evans to the article. ALPolitico, a highly experienced editor with political posts, cleaned up the content and made it conform more to the general style of these political encyclopedia entries. There was a lot of reverting back and forth between the various IP addresses (who identified themselves later as Kurt Evans) and ALPolitico from July 28th to August 5th. ALPolitico made another larger modification on August 11th, removing unnecessary information and adding information about Kurt Evans being a perennial candidate. The IP user reverted ALPoliticos edits stating he removed the information for an "Inadequate reason". The prior edit summary was "Cleanup; what he teaches doesn't matter; with that many previous bids, he is a perennial candidate.", which seems like an adequate reason for the changed information to me.

In Mid-August 2016 this article came to my attention during routine vandalism monitoring. I saw the large back and forth reverts going on and added the page to my watchlist. On that same day, Ymblanter semi-protected the page temporarily, which stopped the disruptive activity from the IP user directly editing the article. The IP user requested assistance at the talk page, which I answered and resolved at that time. Another request for assistance was made and an exchange continued between an outside editor and then ALPolitico, which was an unproductive exchange of accusations. A third request and a fourth request were posted. I responded to the fourth request, referring the IP to WP:OTRS at this point for a fresh take from a volunteer there to assist.

Temporary Semi-Protection was added by Ymblanter again on September 25th; CambridgeBayWeather on October 18th and temporary full protection was added as of November 22nd due to the disruptive editing after I requested indefinite semi protection. It is clear that the IP user just doesn't like what the article says about him, even though ALPolitico sourced the information that was added and maintained the general style used in these types of articles. Semi-protection has not worked because the IP comes back after it expires just to restart the dispute. I strongly believe the article should be indefinitely semi-protected and the talk page should be temporarily semi-protected for a long period of time as this activity is purely disruptive at this point.

The final talk page post before this AN/I by the IP was this. The user disagrees with the consensus formed by ALPolitico and myself about the content of the article and simply wants to keep claiming we are documenting his bid unfairly. After reviewing the sources and the edits again, I do not feel we have misweighed or misrepresented the subject in question. As the user is an IP user with changing IPs, I will leave notice of this discussion on the talk page and last used IP address. Thanks. -- Dane2007 ^talk 03:08, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

This is 2002 U.S. Senate candidate Kurt Evans. In South Dakota a candidate for statewide office "qualifies" by submitting a required number of petition signatures to the secretary of state's office. To note that someone didn't "qualify" means that he or she declared as a candidate but didn't submit the required signatures. This carries the strongly negative connotation of someone who neglected to count the cost of a campaign and raised expectations he or she couldn't meet. In nearly 30 years of political activism, I don't remember hearing any other usage of the word "qualify" in this context.

That's nearly the opposite of what happened in the case at hand. I very deliberately refrained from declaring as a candidate because I understood that I couldn't be legally recognized as such unless federal district judge Karen Schreier approved the state party's motion to allow a U.S. Senate candidacy. Schreier explicitly rejected two such motions and thereby explicitly prevented anyone from becoming a Constitution Party candidate for the U.S. Senate. Judge Schreier's final August 31 ruling is explained in considerable detail in one of the sources that "ALPolitico" and "Dane2007" have repeatedly removed for no stated reason.

I never declared as a Constitution Party candidate for this office, and I was never legally recognized as such. To say that I didn't "qualify" falsely suggests that it was possible for me to do so. In reality the Constitution Party was denied ballot access when Judge Schreier rejected the state party's motions to allow a U.S. Senate candidacy, as sourced in the Dakota Free Press articles from August 18 and September 8. "ALPolitico" and "Dane2007" have both refused to explain why they're so determined to conceal this information from Wikipedia's readers, and their actions have obviously been a huge inconvenience for me.

My IP address changes automatically, but I can be called back to this (or any other) discussion by an email to the address in the first paragraph at the top of the article's "Talk" page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.249.252.72 (talk) 05:46, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

• FWIW, this user's IP range seems to be rather active on the related article since July 2016. See here. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:59, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

This is Kurt Evans, and I freely acknowledge that each of the edits from this IP range was mine. Initially I wasn't identifying myself or posting conflict-of-interest notices because I wasn't familiar with Wikipedia protocol and didn't expect my edits to be controversial. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.249.255.25 (talk) 06:28, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

The Constitution Party of South Dakota nominated Kurt Evans for the U.S. Senate on July 9, 2016, as can be seen at their website here. As can be seen here, they went to court in an attempt to get him on the ballot. A candidate does not have to qualify to be on the ballot in order to be nominated by a party; see a recent example here. I had suggested that a short section on the litigation might have be worthwhile. However, the IP user claiming to be Kurt Evans repeatedly undid perfectly reasonable edits because he did not like them, and also engaged in personal attacks against me, as can be seen on the article's talk page; this IP user is likely also him. ALPolitico (talk) 07:07, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

This is Kurt Evans. As I clearly explained on the article's "Talk" page on September 25, the state party nominated me to become its candidate in the event that federal district judge Karen Schreier approved its motion to allow a U.S. Senate candidacy. Judge Schreier explicitly rejected two such motions and thereby explicitly prevented anyone from becoming a Constitution Party candidate for the U.S. Senate. The edits "ALPolitico" describes as "perfectly reasonable" were actually false, misleading and possibly defamatory, but I was wrong to retaliate with personal attacks, and I apologize. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.53.224.26 (talk) 07:49, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

There is nothing false, misleading, or defamatory in any edit I have made, in this article or others. ALPolitico (talk) 07:59, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

It was probably wrong to call "ALPolitico" smug, obnoxious and egomaniacal, but claims like that one are the reason. —KE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.53.224.26 (talk) 08:20, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Hey Kurt, hi!

I've only been skimming the report here so I don't really know the full detail of what's going on here. But, 2016? Seems a little far away from 2002. You're telling us that you tried to run this year, right? Has anyone tried to explain to you how we operate here? If something is going into one of our articles, it needs to be backed up with a source that's considered Reliable. Have a read of https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#What_counts_as_a_reliable_source for a bit more insight. If you can find a source (or sourcess) that we class as 'reliable', please, copy and paste it/them to here, and we'll see what we can do about putting in your info, otherwise, sorry man, but you're out of luck.

Collaborate with us, please? Be our companion, not our problem. (I apologise if that comes across as rude) MM (WhatIDo WHATIDO?) ^{(Now THIS... I did.)} 08:36, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

No, I'm not saying I tried to run this year. I made myself conditionally available to the state Constitution Party, but federal district judge Karen Schreier rejected its motions to allow a U.S. Senate candidacy. These are the sources I'd placed in the article. —KE

Heidelberger, Cory (August 18, 2016). "Constitution Party Still Fighting to Place Evans and Schmidt on Ballot". Dakota Free Press. Retrieved November 22, 2016. http://dakotafreepress.com/2016/08/18/constitution-party-still-fighting-to-place-evans-and-schmidt-on-ballot/

Heidelberger, Cory (September 8, 2016). "Constitution Party Definitely Not Getting Evans and Schmidt on Ballot". Dakota Free Press. Retrieved November 22, 2016. http://dakotafreepress.com/2016/09/08/constitution-party-definitely-not-getting-evans-and-schmidt-on-ballot/

For the record, I'm not sure why SineBot didn't sign the above comment. —KE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.249.253.233 (talk) 19:14, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Just awake and aware of this as I got the notification. If anybody feels the protection needs changing feel free to change it. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 14:04, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

I hate to be the WP:STICK guy, but, can someone at least point out what's wrong with his sources? MM (WhatIDo WHATIDO?) ^{(Now THIS... I did.)} 20:19, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with his sources...they just don't say what he's trying to argue while citing them. "Conditionally available" is not a term mentioned in either of those articles and the Independent Political Report has the official press release proving that Evans was the candidate for the Constitution Party. This source also has it. In the case of the sources he cites, they do prove that he failed to qualify due to the order from Judge Schreier. This did not remove him as the constitution party's candidate, however, which is why it is listed this way in the section he is contesting. Proper weight has been given to all sides of this story based on the sources available. -- Dane2007 ^talk 20:48, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

To second this, the sources are fine, they just don't say anything about a "conditional nomination," which isn't even a legal thing. His sources even have links leading back to the press release on the Constitution Party of South Dakota's website, which I listed above. He was nominated by the party. He appears to be upset about the failure to qualify (although he was upset about not being listed as being a teacher, as well as being listed as a perennial candidate at first--which I acknowledged one could debate, even if I still do not agree, since his bids were spread out, hence why I did not put it back in), as he feels that it makes him look bad or something like that, which his statements on this page seem to enforce ("This [the listing] carries the strongly negative connotation of someone who neglected to count the cost of a campaign and raised expectations he or she couldn't meet." "'ALPolitico' and 'Dane2007' have both refused to explain why they're so determined to conceal this information from Wikipedia's readers, and their actions have obviously been a huge inconvenience for me." "It was probably wrong to call "ALPolitico" smug, obnoxious and egomaniacal, but claims like that one [my factual statement that I have never added false, misleading, or defamatory information to any article] are the reason." et al, as well as the legal threats directed at Ymblanter and other incidents of that nature). I reverted his edits, including the sources he added, because the previous sources were also fine, while the additional sources added nothing new. I later added the court ruling, which a friend from another website had found and sent to me, as an additional source showing the failure to qualify. ALPolitico (talk) 00:21, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

This is Kurt Evans. I know very little about Wikipedia protocol, but I'm glad "ALPolitico" and "Dane2007" are finally willing to have this conversation, and I'd like to ask for the discussion to be kept open at least until I have time to respond (hopefully by Saturday). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.249.248.237 (talk) 09:46, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

This is Kurt Evans again. I'm not sure what "Dane2007" means when he says my sources don't say what I'm trying to say. The Dakota Free Press articles from August 18 and September 8 show that my potential candidacy was dependent on the state party's ballot-access lawsuit and that the Constitution Party was denied ballot access when its motions to allow a U.S. Senate candidacy were rejected by federal district judge Karen Schreier. That's exactly what I'm trying to say. It's true that the party's July 11 release didn't mention the fact that my potential candidacy was dependent on the lawsuit. That was misleading, and it bothered me, but I'm not sure how it's relevant when "Dane2007" admits there's nothing wrong with the Dakota Free Press sources.

"Dane 2007" seems to be simply ignoring my comments about the meaning of the word "qualify" in this context. In South Dakota a candidate for statewide office "qualifies" by submitting a required number of petition signatures to the secretary of state's office. Saying someone didn't "qualify" means that he or she declared as a candidate but didn't submit the required signatures, which is nearly the opposite of what happened in the case at hand. Saying I didn't "qualify" also falsely suggests that it was possible for me to do so.

I'm not sure what "ALPolitico" is talking about when he says I was "upset about not being listed as being a teacher." I haven't taught since before I rejoined the Constitution Party, and considering that the motions to allow my candidacy were rejected, my occupation has little if any relevance to the article, but I'm far from upset about it. I'm also not sure what "ALPolitico is talking about when he mentions "legal threats directed at Ymblanter and other incidents of that nature."

The claim by "ALPolitico" that he repeatedly removed my sources because they "added nothing new" is absurd. The information in the Dakota Free Press article from September 8, for example, couldn't possibly have been available from any previous source. His claim that "a friend from another website" sent him the link to Judge Schreier's final August 31 ruling also strikes me as highly suspicious. I'm wondering how this friend supposedly knew "ALPolitico" would be interested in the the link, as well as how the link was supposedly sent. Those documents were actually purchased and uploaded by Cory Heidelberger to serve as a sub-link for the Dakota Free Press article, which "ALPolitico" refused to properly credit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.53.225.8 (talk) 19:08, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Allow me to refresh your memory regarding the legal threat on Ymblanter's talk page. In any case, I maintain that the sources do not show what Kurt is trying to argue and will leave it up to the closer to determine that. I still believe the diff as listed in dispute is the most appropriate version of the information. -- Dane2007 ^talk 23:04, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

My friend and I often talk about unusual people and situations on the internet, including situations such as this specific one, hence how he knew I would be interested. I do not know who Cory Heidlberger is, and do not recall seeing his name mentioned in the document. Regardless, none of these sources (nor South Dakota law) say what you are claiming. ALPolitico (talk) 23:46, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Also, listing someone as "Failed to Qualify" when he or she was unsuccessful in qualifying for an office, especially if he or she was nominated for said office, as Kurt Evans was, is standard. It appears in dozens, if not hundreds, of articles. ALPolitico (talk) 23:51, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

This is Kurt Evans. In the conversation with "Ymblanter" from September 25, I asked, "Do I have to file a defamation lawsuit against Wikipedia?" In my next comment I wrote, "Wikipedia is spreading lies about me. Do I have to file a defamation lawsuit to get those lies corrected?" In the comment after that I wrote, "I don't know how Wikipedia works, and I need someone who does know how it works to help me."

That wouldn't have been a threat against "Ymblanter" even if had been a legal threat. It would have been a threat against Wikipedia. Above "ALPolitico" accuses me of legal "threats" (plural) "directed at Ymblanter" and "other incidents of that nature." Thanks to "Dane2007" for the link, but I'm still not sure what "ALPolitico" is talking about when he makes these accusations.

The explanation for my October 17 edit said the direct link to Judge Schreier's final August 31 ruling (added as a source by "ALPolitico") was "an uncredited sub-link from the September 8 Dakota Free Press article I'd posted as a reference before, which ['ALPolitico' had] arbitrarily removed for no stated reason." Now he's suggesting he didn't know that, which raises the question of whether he was even bothering to read the explanations for my edits before he undid them.

There's nothing wrong with saying someone didn't "qualify" when he or she was unsuccessful in qualifying for an office, but there's something very wrong with suggesting someone was unsuccessful in qualifying for an office when he or she never attempted to qualify because circumstances beyond his or her control made doing so impossible. The assertion by "ALPolitico" that none of these sources say what I'm claiming is absurd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.249.248.209 (talk) 05:58, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

At this point, it would be good to mention that I had to contact Wikimedia Legal and was advised not to communicate any further with any IP's who claim they are "Kurt Evans". All communication will be referred back to Wikimedia Legal. I also used to block all such IPs on the spot for legal threats and block evasion, but since apparently the IPs are dynamic only rangeblock would make sense.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:47, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Wikimedia Legal probably gave "Ymblanter" good advice considering the way he's acted. Now if they'd just tell "ALPolitico" and "Dane2007" to stop smearing me. —KE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.53.227.15 (talk) 00:48, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Where do we go from here? Is it reasonable to restore the article and semi-protect indefinitely to prevent future disruptive activity? -- Dane2007 ^talk 14:21, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

It seems to me that a reasonable next step would be for "Dane2007" to explain why he insists on sourcing to an August 15 Ballot Access News article that contains outdated and misleading information rather than to the Dakota Free Press article from September 8. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.53.226.58 (talk) 18:04, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

(The preceding comment is from me. —KE) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.53.226.58 (talk) 18:08, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

This is Kurt Evans again. By admitting that there's nothing wrong with the Dakota Free Press sources from August 18 and September 8, "Dane2007" and "ALPolitico" have implicitly admitted that the Ballot Access News article from August 15 contains outdated and misleading information. I know very little about Wikipedia protocol, but in view of the fact that "Dane 2007" and "ALPolitico" have yet to offer any explanation whatsoever of why they insist on sourcing to the Ballot Access News article, I'd like to request an additional week of temporary full protection. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.249.249.156 (talk) 17:28, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Protection has already been extended. As "ALPolitico" and I have repeatedly stated, your sources do not claim what you're trying to say in the article. Ultimately an administrator on this page will have to review and decide this as we are unable to come to a resolution on this issue and going back and forth on the same statements isn't going to get us there. -- Dane2007 ^talk 18:53, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

This is Kurt Evans. The Dakota Free Press sources from August 18 and September 8 show that my potential candidacy was dependent on the state party's ballot-access lawsuit and that the Constitution Party was denied ballot access when its motions to allow a U.S. Senate candidacy were rejected by federal district judge Karen Schreier. That's exactly what I'm trying to say, but I'm not suggesting that we ought to go "back and forth on the same statements." I'm suggesting that "Dane2007" and "ALPolitico" ought to explain why they insist on sourcing to an August 15 Ballot Access News article that contains outdated and misleading information rather than to the Dakota Free Press article from September 8. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.249.249.46 (talk) 22:52, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

I believe the protection is about to expire, and "Dane2007" appears to be the only one who's responded to my request for an additional week of temporary full protection. As I've mentioned several times, I know very little about Wikipedia protocol, but I'm wondering whether the "closer" he mentioned on Friday would be willing to at least identify himself or herself. Thank you. —KE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.249.247.177 (talk) 20:14, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

I just discovered the "Protection log" page, which seems to indicate that "CambridgeBayWeather" had extended temporary full protection to December 5 several hours before I requested the extension. I now realize that's probably what "Dane2007" meant when he wrote above that protection had already been extended. I apologize for my Wikipedilliteracy and ask everyone to disregard my previous comment. Thanks. —KE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.249.252.39 (talk) 22:38, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Good grief. It seems like the obvious solution here is to simply explain in greater detail why Kurt Evans was not on the ballot. "Failure to qualify" is clearly too vague of a term for some people to grasp - just put a sentence or two explaining why he wasn't allowed on the ballot, and decide what a good header for his subsection should be. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:44, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

I had already suggested, back in August or September, that a subsection on the litigation (or a mention of it directly under the Constitution Party header) may have been worthwhile, not to mention that it would be consistent with the format of similar information in other articles. The IP user either did not like this or did not care. Regardless, there's still no such thin as a conditional nomination. ALPolitico (talk) 03:59, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

@Someguy1221: Both "ALPolitico" and I had agreement on what was in the article to match how this situation is typically presented, and early on I even made some collaborative changes with Kurt to clean up what he contributed. Here is an example of how it was originally listed. The headers, as they are in the disputed diff, reflect accurately what happened. If you review the desired modification by Kurt, he wants to modify the entire section to state things that are not stated (WP:SYNTH) from the later sources, which is what both ALPolitico and I object to. Throw in the fact that he has violated WP:LEGAL with Ymblanter and come extremely close to violating that with me, it's hard to have any collaboration. If theres another sentence to be added and it isn't WP:SYNTH, let's work that out in my opinion, but in this entire AN/I no such proposal has been made and the WP:SYNTH additions have been what he has been defending. I hope we can come to some sort of resolution on this. Indeed, I would agree to adding the sentence as follows without changing the headers: "He failed to qualify for the ballot after a ruling by federal district judge Karen Schreier ruled the party did not follow South Dakota's requirement for participating in the primary election." -- Dane2007 ^talk 04:04, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

@Dane2007:, @ALPolitico:. Since Kurt's major problem seemed to be terminology, I found myself spending a stupid amount of time tonight reading South Dakota's election laws. OK, so please note that what follows is an attempt to follow Kurt's logic to the end, rather than to propose my personal reading of statute for inclusion in any article. The term "qualify" is not defined by South Dakota state law. The law seems to assume that anyone seeking to be a candidate, is indeed a candidate, whether or not they are on a ballot. A candidate who wishes to appear on a ballot must deliver a "certificate of nomination" to the appropriate office, which is then either certified or it is not. Candidates who appear on the ballot are "certified", not "qualified". So for all Kurt's talk of what he was or wasn't, it seems to be based in his own perceptions and expectations, rather than in any legal definitions. In other words, a newspaper article that says Kurt "was not qualified for the ballot" cannot be said to be making a factual error, because legally it doesn't mean anything! It thus appears to me entirely appropriate to just follow whatever wording that is used by reliable secondary sources, while of course explaining fully but succinctly the nuance of his situation. TLDR version: I agree with you two. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:29, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

@Someguy1221: Thanks for checking it out. Perhaps extended semi-protection or indef semi-protection on the page? -- Dane2007 ^talk 04:55, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

This is Kurt Evans. "ALPolitico" says he'd previously suggested that a subsection on the litigation may have been worthwhile. He doesn't mention that he "suggested" it in his explanation for an edit that removed any mention whatsoever of the litigation. He also keeps arguing about a "conditional nomination" as if I'd used that phrase myself. Regardless of how one labels what happened at the state party convention, federal district judge Karen Schreier explicitly ruled that no one would become a U.S. Senate candidate as a result.

Now "Dane2007" has introduced the new accusation that I'm attempting to synthesize from multiple sources. All I'm trying to say is that the Constitution Party was denied ballot access when the state party's motions to allow a U.S. Senate candidacy were rejected by Judge Schreier, which is clearly stated in the September 8 source alone (the source "Dane2007" has repeatedly removed for no stated reason). The sentence he suggests adding also misrepresents Judge Schreier's rationale for her ruling.

It still seems to me that a reasonable next step would be for "ALPolitico" and "Dane2007" to explain why they insist on sourcing to an August 15 Ballot Access News article that contains outdated and misleading information rather than to the Dakota Free Press article from September 8. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.249.251.158 (talk) 06:48, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

This is Kurt Evans again. Since "ALPolitico" and "Dane2007" are still refusing to offer any explanation whatsoever for their sourcing decisions, I'd like to address the comments of "Someguy1221" above. His contributions seem to be a good-faith effort to understand South Dakota's somewhat complex system of election laws and apply them to this situation, but I'd like to clarify a couple of points he appears to have missed.

By the time I rejoined the Constitution Party in early July, there was absolutely no provision in South Dakota law for anyone to become either "qualified" or "certified" as a U.S. Senate candidate. At that point the state party's lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of South Dakota election law was the only possible path for anyone to be legally recognized as a candidate, and therefore the only sense in which I could have hypothetically been considered a candidate is the colloquial sense.

Although there's a colloquial sense in which I'd declared that I was available to become the party's candidate if its motions for ballot access were successful, I've never made anything resembling a formal "declaration of candidacy" as that phrase is normally understood in this context. I gave no media interviews, opened no campaign website, raised no money, spent no money and did essentially none of the things typically associated with a political candidate.

I'm not seeing any obvious problems with the proposal by "Someguy1221" to "just put a sentence or two explaining why he wasn't allowed on the ballot, and decide what a good header for his subsection should be." This is a suggestion: "In a previously pending ballot-access lawsuit, the Constitution Party of South Dakota filed two motions to allow 2002 Libertarian Party nominee Kurt Evans to become the Constitution Party's 2016 U.S. Senate candidate. Federal district judge Karen Schreier rejected the respective motions on August 15 and August 31." It seems to me that "Denied ballot access" would still be the most accurate subheader for the section.

If the above information is clearly stated in the body of the article, and if the Dakota Free Press sources from August 18 and September 8 are both included, I'd also consider withdrawing my objection to the Ballot Access News article from August 15 as an additional source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.249.247.102 (talk) 01:11, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Creation of multiple unsourced articles

Bruce hughes (talk · contribs) has a history of creating unacceptable articles, and in the last week has settled into a niche, starting multiple unsourced articles listing BeeGees concert tours from the 1970s. I find it difficult to dig up sources that confirm dates and places, and wonder if these are even notable. One could template the heck out of the articles and pile warnings on the account, and the situation would be static and likely sit indefinitely. Perhaps each article will need to go through AfD, but some input regarding the editor will be appreciated, too. This isn't a terribly constructive account, and seems to be looking for something to add, period. No edit summaries or interest in explaining rationale. Thanks, 2601:188:1:AEA0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 23:33, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

• I suspect we have block evasion. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/PogiJmon/Archive for accounts with a similar interest in BeeGees arcana. Maybe Bbb23 can help, since you weighed in there. Thanks, 2601:188:1:AEA0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 01:03, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

@2601:188:1:AEA0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63: - I looked over some of the contributions from the listed users and I don't think it's a sockpuppet. The Bruce user in question can barely format a bulleted list. They have also reverted a minor formatting change on one of the BeeGees tour pages -- so I feel it's clear they have no idea about formatting or the MOS. --Jennica✿ / ^talk 05:57, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

• I PRODded a couple of them. In their current state they fail NTOUR spectacularly. I'm also worried about articles like The Bee Gees' concerts in 1967 and 1968. NTOUR is violated all over the wiki these days, with every popstar (not just K-pop) getting a list of tours, tour articles, etc., besides a separate discography, list of awards, and so on. Drmies (talk) 16:18, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Thank you, Drmies. I see you also nominated one of his articles at AfD. 2601:188:1:AEA0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 18:35, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Requesting NPA block of IP user

• 184.189.217.210 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• User talk:BatteryIncluded (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)
• User talk:184.189.217.210 (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Requesting a WP:NPA block for this IP user who's been on a series of rants today in which they've referred to me and other editors and our edits as "illogical nonsense", "people with poor reasoning skills", "cheap and lazy", "grossly incompetent", "completely incompetent", "involved users" with "political agendas", "certainly weren't competent", "utterly incompetent", and in summary "people like this should not be allowed anywhere near the moderation machinery of Wikipedia" and "do Wikipedia and its editors a favor and never ever involve yourself in a issue of sockpuppetry again, because you are no good at it." (all emphasis in original). None of these are particularly egregious on their own and I would applaud their use of a thesaurus, but it is a lengthy rant by a user who was warned recently about making personal attacks, and whose pattern of personal attacks was demonstrative in the sockpuppetry block they just came off (which was later shown to be erroneous and would have been lifted no doubt, had they not personally attacked the admin reviewing their unblock request). Considering their own political agenda and history of POV edits, it seems they don't have much interest in contributing constructively. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:40, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Have you considered the possibility that BatteryIncluded and the anon are not the same person? The whole issue seems to revolve around that accusation, which the IP vehemently denies and which was not backed up by a CU (CU denied twice), though the IP was blocked for it. If they are not the same peson, calling someone incompetent isn't nice, but a personal perception based on facts and sheer exasperation. Failing to doubt ones infallibility usually leads to no good, I know from personal experience.

Also, please provide examples of POV edits from which you conclude WP:NOTHERE. Thanks. Kleuske (talk) 16:12, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Although I was attacked by this IP user, I agree with Kleuske here that a block is not necessary. This user was angry because of the sockpuppet accusation, I hope everything will be good when they calm down. Vanjagenije (talk) 16:39, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I wrote above that their block was later shown to be erroneous, so yes, I've "considered it". There's a conversation on BatteryIncluded's talk page wherein a CheckUser confirmed that they are not related, in which I also explained why requests for CheckUser on an IP address are routinely declined. I'm not claiming infallibility but I made the only judgement I could make given the evidence that was available. When technical evidence that they are not the same user became available later (because a CheckUser elected to check, of his own accord) then it was shown that the block was wrong. BatteryIncluded's block was reset at that time and I'm not sure why the IP's wasn't lifted, but it seems that the reviewing administrator didn't consider their unblock request to be genuine.

Being frustrated about being on the wrong end of this error is entirely warranted: it's frustrating. And it's understandable from time to time a frustrated user blows off steam, and we usually ignore it. But this is not an outburst: it's a continuation of a pattern of abusive editing. You can see warnings on the IP's talk page for failing to assume good faith at Talk:Alicia Machado (presumably here) and for personal attacks apparently here. There are more personal attacks in edits here, here, and here, all of these occurring before there was a sockpuppet investigation. That pattern is part of a broader pattern of tendentious POV-pushing at Myron Ebell insisting that we must describe him as a "climate change skeptic" or "climate science denier" ([73], [74], [75]) against apparent consensus. Their comment that "Now that Trump has been elected, it doesn't much matter ... human civilization on this planet is soon over. I will still call out this sort of BS" doesn't sound a lot like an editor interested in a collaborative project based on consensus. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:25, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

This has to be one of the flimsier blocks for sockpuppetry I've seen. I'd be hard pressed to accept, based on the evidence at the SPI page, that the IP was BatteryIncluded. Having an extremem POV on climage change, regardless of whether one leans towards acceptance or denial, wouldn't be surprising and that the IP edited around the same time as BI certainly does raise eyebrows, but a comparison between the two editors' styles, at least in my mind, certainly did not say the IP is BI's sock. Blackmane (talk) 18:53, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

I disagree, naturally. Certainly climate change is a topic on which many editors have strong opinions, myself included; two editors with a similar (even extreme) POV isn't unusual at all and in fact there are several other users arguing the same side of this debate. In addition to the narrative presented at SPI, what connected these two users in my mind was:

• their tendency to repeatedly refer to opposing viewpoints as "bullshit" or a "soapbox" and vowing not to spend any more time on them ([76] [77] [78] [79] [80] [81] [82])
• engaging in blatant ad hominems ([83] [84] [85] [86])
• using this debate to lament the recent American presidential election ([87] [88]) in a tone that suggests intent to right great wrongs
• gravedancing an enforcement sanction against Zigzig20s ([89] [90] [91])

As I said, there were (and are) several other users continuing this discussion at Talk:Myron Ebell, but only these two editors have participated in this debate in this same style, at reasonably nearly the same time, and with one continuing to do so while the other is blocked. That's a strong sockpuppetry case, in my opinion. Nevertheless, technical evidence obtained after the fact has shown that to be incorrect and I'm not arguing with that: the IP is not BatteryIncluded's sockpuppet, notwithstanding my prior conclusion. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:09, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Ivanvector, I too am scratching my head at the behavior of this IP editor. Clone-like in tone to BatteryIncluded and angry at everyone, the IP made a few edits like a tornado in a trailer park, including vexatious edits towards those who had tussled with BatteryIncluded, and soon got blocked. Then a week later the IP heads to the alleged puppetmaster's talk page to introduce himself and commiserate about how they are both victims of an abusive Wikipedia administration, stating here "BTW, English isn't BI's native language, where as it's my only language -- anyone competent can tell the difference between us." How the heck do you know that? And here "if I were BatteryIncluded, it's unlikely that I would be posting this comment." Huh? Why would angry IP give a hoot about BatteryIncluded or righting a wrong on his talk page? I've never seen such a sense of justice from an ephemeral IP editor. Most just unplug their modem overnight and start fresh with a new IP in the morning. I've spent my share of time in Ducktown, Tennessee, and the quack is unmistakable. But if the glove doesn't fit, the glove doesn't fit. Magnolia677 (talk) 03:07, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

How the heck do you know that? -- By reading BatteryIncluded saying so; duh. Why would angry IP give a hoot about BatteryIncluded or righting a wrong on his talk page? -- Um, this really isn't hard to understand. I don't give a hoot about BI, but I do give a hoot about having been drawn into this, and about WP editors tossing around bogus charges based on flimsy evidence. I explained this in my "rants" at some length. And you completely missed the obvious point, which is that BI never would have posted a "series of rants" with an IP address on a page where he is being accused of using that IP address as a sockpuppet unless he wanted to be banned. My comments don't show giving a hoot about BI; quite the opposite. "I've never seen such a sense of justice from an ephemeral IP editor." -- Argumentum ad ignorantiam. And that's a ridiculous claim; ephemeral IP editors are just people ... there's no inverse correlation between using an IP address and having a sense of justice. The fact is that there are very few people with my sense of justice, so not having encountered one is irrelevant. And my sense of justice being strong and unique is another argument against my being BI, as he doesn't display it either. Only the most superficial sort of analysis -- seen both in your comment above and in the sockpuppetry "evidence" that you presented -- could make us out to be the same person. "the quack is unmistakable" -- you say, after having been proven mistaken. -- 184.189.217.210 (talk) 14:08, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

I disagree, naturally. -- Eh? It was proven by a CheckUser that I am not a sockpuppet of BatteryIncluded and someone (you, perhaps?) thanked that CheckUser for setting them straight. It is amazing that you would continue to press this idea that we are sockpuppets after a CheckUser has shot down the claim and has severely criticized the original claim and the block based on it. You write "That's a strong sockpuppetry case, in my opinion" -- this is a serious logic failure when you have in hand hard evidence that we are not sockpuppets ... your "strong sockpuppetry case" is no such thing, it is merely a case of two different people having some things in common, which is vastly different from them being the same person. What we have here is a strong case that you don't understand what makes for a case for sockpuppetry -- that's a demonstrated fact, not a "personal attack". And that was the point of my "rant", which remains entirely valid by your own words and actions. Both you and Magnolia677, who presented the entirely bogus "evidence" of sockpuppetry, are way too personally involved. You are now advising blocking me based on political views that I have expressed. That is not the Wikipedia way. Follow the lead of sensible, disinterested people like Kleuske and Vanjagenije. Back away and drop this. -- 184.189.217.210 (talk) 13:21, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

@184.189.217.210: I'm requesting that if you have something else to post, create a new post below your previous one. Going back and changing your already posted statements makes it hard for others to follow, as I have been trying the last few minutes. ^{(talk page stalker)} CrashUnderride 13:35, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Additional comments: . I will again note that, while English is not BatteryIncluded's first language, it is my only language and I am very fluent in it ... I don't need a thesaurus to write well. Ivanvector's "strong sockpuppetry case" totally ignores the significant stylistic differences between two users, while making far too much of irrelevant facts like both of us writing on the Myron Ebell talk page around the same time -- no surprise because it was within days of the U.S. election and Donald Trump's announcement that Ebell was in charge of the EPA transition team. I made these points in my "rant" but he has completely failed here to consider or present the argument made in my "rant". And Magnolia677, who presented the entirely bogus "evidence" of sockpuppetry while he himself was an active editor on the Myron Ebell page. -- 184.189.217.210 (talk) 13:46, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Anyone who considers this block request should read carefully the reasoning and points I presented in my "rants". while considering that it is now well known and has been acknowledged even by Ivanvector that I am not a sockpuppet of BatteryIncluded; that the charge was bogus, based on 'evidence" that did not remotely support it, and yet resulted in a six month ban for BatteryIncluded. As the CheckUser wrote, BatteryIncluded would have had to "acknowledge" the nonexistent sockpuppetry in order to have the ban lifted. Think for yourselves how you would characterize the people who placed that ban. Perhaps my "rant" wasn't so far off. -- 184.189.217.210 (talk) 13:51, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

whose pattern of personal attacks was demonstrative in the sockpuppetry block they just came off -- the block had nothing to do with "personal attacks", it was a block for evading a block ... based on a completely bogus charge, made by you. would have been lifted no doubt -- the block was "lifted" by expiring. had they not personally attacked the admin reviewing their unblock request -- this is a false charge, and there is no evidence whatsoever that the reviewing admin would have lifted the ban. The reviewing admin gave their reasons for not unblocking, and being personally attacked was not among them -- of course, because I had never addressed or even heard of them before their rejection of the unblock request. The claim that "no doubt" they would have lifted the ban is absurd, illogical, and has no basis in fact, like so many of your claims. And you can call that a "personal attack", but that too has no basis in logic or fact. OTOH, you have used my expressed political views as a basis for your argument for this ban, and that is a personal attack. -- 184.189.217.210 (talk) 14:23, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Also, the claim that I have made "POV edits" is nonsense ... in an attempt to improve the lede of the Myron Ebell article I changed text saying that he is a "climate change analyst" to saying that he is a climate change skeptic ... the latter is well supported by the cited sources, whereas the former is not. An edit isn't "POV" just because you have some other POV. The current lede, which does not contain anything I wrote, notes that he has been described as been described as a climate change skeptic, a climate contrarian, and a climate change denier. If you want to ban me for supposedly having a "political agenda", you had better ban everyone involved in writing that lede, and ban all those reliable sources as well. -- 184.189.217.210 (talk) 14:45, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

• I think that most users will be able to see the multiple places (including in my original post and on BatteryIncluded's talk page) where I've acknowledged that this IP user is not BatteryIncluded's sockpuppet. I've said so explicitly twice (now thrice) just in this thread. Sometimes what looks and sounds like a duck turns out to be just some guy with a duck call and a feather hat. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 21:17, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

  Most users can see that I'm not a duck (BI-like) at all, that your "strong evidence" for that was nothing of the sort, and that your block request is baseless and ill-advised. -- 184.189.217.210 (talk) 13:00, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Request rangeblock of 185.69.144.0/25

I've noticed quite a bit of vandalism/personal attacks from this IP range (at least I think 185.69.144.0/25 is the right range) recently, so much so that I think a temporary block is warranted. Some examples: [92] [93] [94] [95] [96] [97]. If a block is not possible, then could an admin please keep an eye on the range for the time being? Sro23 (talk) 00:01, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

I've blocked most of that range for 72 hours. Although I realize this is a mobile phone ISP and there is going to be some collateral damage, I think the nature of the personal attacks and the persistence of them, plus the additional disruption and edit warring, warrants the soft block. Not a long term solution, but hopefully it will help for now. -- Ed (Edgar181) 00:48, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Looks like it's your sad friend Cebr1979 getting all worked up again. Maybe your user and talk page needs ECP or semi prot. Blackmane (talk) 01:18, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

• Really? Is that them? I thought Cebr1979 was a human being. Drmies (talk) 18:54, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
• They've moved on to a new range (85.255.232.0/21). Diffs: [98][99] [100] [101] [102] [103] [104] [105] [106]. Would another rangeblock be possible? Sro23 (talk) 01:55, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

  @Sro23: I've conferred with a CheckUser, and unfortunately, there's too much collateral here to range block. I'll bop individual IPs as they pop up. Feel free to either report to WP:AIV or ping me as needed for this guy. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 06:46, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Accidentally edited a page on id.wikipedia.org without logging from my account

I am an Autopatrolled and New Page Reviewer on English Wikipedia, I have accidentally edited a page on id.wikipedia.org (https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/TelkomTelstra) without logging from my account. Is there any way to avoid such incidents or whitelist my IP address or what is the best practice for it? Kavdiamanju (talk) 05:54, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Do you mean you don't want to edit as an IP user? If yes, then I don't really think there is any way for it, other than routinely checking you are logged in at the top-right corner. Normally when you edit as an IP user it should show something like "You are not logged in. Your IP will be publicly visible..." at the top so then you know that you are editing without logging in. NgYShung ^huh? 09:46, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Not a global solution unless you can implement a global stylesheet (which some browsers will allow you to do), but for easy recognition of when you're logged in (or not), add #wpSave{background-color:#00f} to Special:MyPage/common.css. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 09:58, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

If you're using your own laptop/computer or mobile to edit, you can enable the "Keep me logged in (365 days)" when logging in. You should that if you sign out, say, on a laptop and also using your mobile, you be logged off in mobile. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 20:07, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

• Hi, Kavdiamanju, this question may perhaps be more appropriate for ID-wiki, since the interfaces could possibly be different. If you'd like to request WP:REVDEL so that your IP address in that edit would be invisible to others, please contact an administrator on that wiki (here: https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pengurus) rather than English wiki. An admin there can probably also more accurately answer your question about staying logged in and making sure you don't accidentally edit logged out. Softlavender (talk) 04:29, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Personal attack/false accusation against me in an edit summary

User:Oncenawhile has been making non-stop personal attacks against me for years, culminating in now including one in an edit summary, where he accused me of WikiHouding him after another editor and I asked him to provide reliable sources for his edit. (The edit involved inventing his own classification system for ethnoreligious groups and arbitrarily placing different groups within his own made up categories.) He did not provide a link which supported these categorizations, instead he added one which described a different categorization system and wrote "reversion of Drsmoo wikihounding across unrelated articles." [[107]]. Per my understanding, this is explicitly forbidden Help:Edit_summary#What_to_avoid_in_edit_summaries It's just the latest in a string of uncivil personal attacks he's made against me and others, the other most recent one being when he posted on my talk page that my posting was reminiscent of a Milli Vanilli song, whatever that means. https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Drsmoo&diff=744867813&oldid=738479488 Drsmoo (talk) 00:51, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

• New or innovative scholarship should not be cited to a dissertation--a dissertation might be acceptable, in certain circumstances, but I don't see those here yet. Oncenawhile, can you drop the snark? Drmies (talk) 03:32, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Hi Drmies, the link was intended to point to the section in the dissertation which summarizes existing scholarship - it walks through in a methodical fashion the various scholars which have published classification systems. I was being lazy in not explaining this properly, and/or not pulling out the underlying sources. Oncenawhile (talk) 09:32, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

I stand by my accusation of WikiHounding. The evidence is below:

• By number of all time edits: [108]: 35% of all his edits have been on pages which I have also edited within the prior 24 hours, and that figure goes up to 45% if you remove the time constraint
• By number of edits in 2016: [109]: 63% of all his edits have been on pages which I have also edited within the prior 24 hours, plus those on my talk page, and that figure goes up to 70% if you remove the time constraint
• Edit history analysis: We have had a very long running dispute on Southern Levant, ever since I reported Drsmoo for edit warring back in 2011. The dispute simmered for a long time, and began to get very heated from late April 2016, when Category:Southern_Levant was put up for deletion. Since then Drmsoo has become involved in numerous unrelated discussions across the encyclopaedia, each time his involvement came only after I had already made an edit or was involved in a discussion: [110]:

3 May 2016 joins a discussion in a thread I was involved in at Modern Hebrew, in combative opposition

10 June 2016 joins a discussion I was involved in on Zionism, in combative opposition

21 August 2016 reverts an edit of mine at Palestinians

28 August 2016 joins a discussion at Rachel's Tomb, in combative opposition, and later joins a similar discussion at Joseph's Tomb

16 October 2016 partial revert of my edits at L'Shana Haba'ah

30 October 2016 joins a discussion at Template:Graphical Overview of Jerusalem's Historical Periods, in combative opposition

19 November 2016 reverts my edit at Demographic history of Jerusalem

25 November 2016‎ partial revert of my edit at Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries

28 November 2016 reverts my edit at Ethnoreligious group

His intent is clear and it is making for a very difficult editing environment.

As an aside, and in the interest of transparency, please note that Drsmoo has opened four previous ANI claims against me: [111], [112], [113], [114]

Oncenawhile (talk) 09:32, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

The above is complete and utter BS and the same percentages appear with others who frequently edit in the I/P field. It also includes places where I edited first, for example, my talk page. I have no special interest in Oncenawhile and regularly edit in the I/P field which involves disputes with multiple editors. In the last six months I've edited 63 articles and Oncenawhile has edited 157, there have been 14 overlaps, which is roughly the same ratio you'll find with anyone in the I/P field. However, essentially every time Oncenawhile is involved, he drags the discussion on into a long meaningless argument, usually filled with personal attacks (from him), endless "pinging" (from him) (a weird thing to do to someone you say is "hounding" you) and harassment (including on my talk page). This combined with the fact that I often make multiple grammar edits for every "contribution" due to not utilizing preview as often as I should leads to the BS above.

Meanwhile, Oncenawhile has been harassing me (and other editors), including on my talk page, incessantly. Including this, where when it was clear that he had no reliable sources to back up his/her edits, he started accusing me of "hounding".

Some recent examples:

• Tells me he will not assume good faith when editing

• Falsely accuses me of "plagiarizing a student website" even while my edit is fully sourced

• Posts on my talk page that my edit reminds him of "Milli Vanilli", whatever that means

• Says my policy based statements are "vacuous", and thus he will ignore them

• "you made a stupid revert about something totally irrelevant, and noone can be bothered to deal with it.”

• Calls me "pathetic"

• Accuses me of Islamophobia based on nothing

And some examples of his editing towards other editors

• "Telling NMMNG not to attack another editor is like telling a child they can't have cake. It only feeds his aggression. The best way to deal with editors like this is to ignore them."

• “I would note that the quality of your edits so far suggest you know very little about the city's history. You appear to be using this as a learning exercise, rather than a valid attempt to improve the encyclopaedia based on any pre-existing knowledge.”

• “I worry about people when they feel the need to project their own self-importance to unknown strangers. Numerous psychological studies have shown that such behaviour belies a deep lack of underlying self confidence. It probably goes without saying, but I am here for you if you ever need anyone to speak to.”

Feel free to look through my posting history or any of the examples he gave, I have never engaged in personal attacks and all my edits, including this most recent one, are policy based. Drsmoo (talk) 12:59, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Compromised account?

I've looked through Pm master's edits in the past. This leads me to believe the account is compromised. To wit:

• From 2007 - 2013 PM master made several thousand edits, all in the area of project management and related business organisational topics. Much of this was fighting spam links in business articles. They evidenced no interest in historical, Iranian, or Islamic topics.
• Yet the account became active again yesterday (after a 2 year hiatus), immediately undertook disputes in an entirely novel field, and claimed knowledge of editors and edits with which they have no prior interaction.
• The style of talk page postings in the earlier period and the recent days is entirely different.

It is clear that the person currently using the Pm master account is an experienced Wikipedian; but I do not believe it is the same person as used it until 2013.

Obviously the logs from 2013 are long gone, so a checkuser wouldn't be able to confirm this. I don't know what steps we can take. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 13:58, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

I think that this warrants investigation. A checkuser may not yield any definitive results because, as you say, the logs from 2013 would have long since expired. However, it may be possible to discern the original Pm master's probable timezone by examining the time stamps on his pre-2013 edits. It would by no means prove anything on its own, but if there's been a radical enough change between then and now, it could go a long way in affirming the possibility of a compromised account. That's assuming there isn't any other more explicit indication of it in his contributions.

In any event, the communication style and primary areas of interest are divergent enough, coupled with the sudden return to active editing following a three-year hiatus, that a compromised account seems likely. I would not be opposed to an indefinite block of Pm master until we get to the bottom of this. Kurtis ^(talk) 19:10, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

• I hesitate only because I've never dealt with a compromised account before. Maybe Stephen can have a go... Drmies (talk) 20:18, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

  Thanks Drmies, I'm not an expert by any stretch - I only catch the obvious cases like Wales vandalizing the main page. However, a calm experienced editor with an interest in software development project management suddenly diving into middle-eastern matters and accusing an respected admin of sockpuppetry in his second edit in two years is indeed compromised. I've extended your block indefinitely until identity can be reestablished. Stephen 23:06, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

• Oh that Jimbo Wales thing is TOTALLY NOT WHY I PINGED YOU STEPHAN but I appreciate the extra set of eyes--I think that makes five pairs by now. Also, I don't know if FPaS is "respected", though I appreciate their service, but you know, they've been here forever and that counts for something. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 00:57, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

User:JohnWilkinson

• JohnWilkinson (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• JohnWilkinso (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

AIV got me nowhere with this a few weeks ago, so I'll try here now that it's come up again today. User:JohnWilkinson is a bizarre SPA who keeps parroting some nonsense about how the International Boxing Organization (IBO) does not belong in the lead sections of certain articles (mainly Gennady Golovkin, plus other articles involving the IBO), and keeps removing it after a series of ranting edit summaries. He also seems to have a presence outside of WP, promoting his agenda at forums and comment sections. Examples: 1, 2.

Several such edits have been made in the past few months; multiple warnings given; a previous account for the same thing earlier in the year; and his occasional rambling at my talk page (3, 4) is annoying as hell. Example quote from the latter:

"I am writing to you as your superior in this ONE FIELD."

I mean, seriously? Discussing the matter with him won't work, as I can't make heads nor tails of what he's going on about! What's clear is that he won't stop removing the IBO from articles, which is disruptive and basically vandalism by this point. Tempted to say NOTHERE, even though others might view his edits as "misguided but good faith". Regardless, he's an absolute nutjob. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 13:56, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't see anything in either account's contribution history that is particularly out of bounds, like edit warring. There may be a WP:COI, since the user seems to have strong personal opinions about IBO. It seem like WP:DR is the best course of action. AIV is not the right venue because there's no indication that the edits were done with the intent to damage the encyclopedia.- MrX 19:54, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

He is edit warring, though, and disruptively so. Besides the continual rambling and nonsensical edit summaries, he has given no justifiable—or even decipherable—reasons to remove the IBO from those articles. More like WP:PN should apply here, as most of what he writes is the very definition of "Content that, while apparently intended to mean something, is so confusing that no reasonable person can be expected to make any sense of it." WP:DR seems like a waste of time, since he only makes the edits every few weeks and is not a regular user. Perhaps WP:EWN instead? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:07, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

So that people trying to help you don't have to trudge exhaustively through two accounts' contributions, please provide diffs showing edit warring.- MrX 23:21, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Diffs of slow-edit warring at Gennady Golovkin:

• Current edition with stable lead, and IBO included: 1
• Lead with content (IBO) persistently removed by User:JohnWilkinson – 19 Oct, 29 Oct, 18 Nov.

Mac Dreamstate (talk) 13:51, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

These edits, while repeated, aren't occurring at a high enough rate for me to justify this as active "edit warring" or that any administrative action is needed at this time. I think the best course of action is to inform the user that he needs to discuss his thoughts and rationale on the article's talk page and explain (with references and sources that support his argument) why he believes that his contributions are valid and the content modifications/removal he's been making are accurate improvements that are verifiable. He just needs to get affiliated with dispute resolution and understand the need to properly discuss disagreements like this on the article's talk page, that's all :-) ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 15:27, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Heh, so I'm on my own with this one. Fine, but I'll say this outright—I dread being obligated to interact with him in any way. Any non-admin user who calls themselves my "superior" on WP, whilst touting a fictional organisation set out to "fix" boxing, and saying things like "I can assure you..I myself am one of the "greats" in understanding modern boxing at admin levels", or leaving their damn phone number at my talk page, is not worth my time.

Let alone the walls of text I would expect to receive, like these posts from him (under the same name) on boxing forums: 1, 2. Quote from the first one: "I am AT WAR against the IBO which is the FIRST &FOREMOST MAJOR DECEIVER!" That's what I'd be opening myself up to. Just sayin'. I don't believe this paragraph violates WP:OUTING, since he himself has repeatedly posted his own name and number on WP, which seems to be covered by this RfC: "Noting undeniably obvious cross-site identity". In fact, it looks to me like WP:SOAPBOX and WP:BADPOV are at hand here—by admission he is not posting as an individual, but as an "organization" with an agenda to push.

The only reason I brought it up here is because his agenda has been persistent enough and presented in such a bizarre manner throughout the year to warrant at least a mention to someone who would notice, and because a huge amount of boxing topics are on my watchlist. If the unlucky souls at WP:DR or WP:COI think they handle him, good luck to 'em. Advice appreciated nonetheless.. Close away. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 16:50, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) Someone who posts under what looks like a real name, and even if not their real name then a screen-name they have used on other websites, is making themselves a target for outing. However, Googling other users' names and then posting the results on-wiki is never OK, even in such cases. It is not clear how Mac Dreamstate came across the above-linked forum posts, but if a search engine was involved then they should refrain from doing so again.

Mac Dreamstate, the wording of WP:OUT is interpreted as narrowly or as broadly as is seen appropriate on a case-by-case basis, and attempting to interpret anything on Wikipedia talk:Harassment as justifying posting links to off-wiki posts that do not appear to be directly related to Wikipedia (there is no canvassing involved) is not going to end well. Apparently, that policy page is extremely controversial and has gone through more than ten archive pages in the past two years, so it seems extremely unlikely that a "consensus" on the talk page that is not explicitly enshrined in the wording of the policy itself will either cause you to be blocked or prevent you from being blocked.

However, JohnWilkinson's on-wiki behaviour certainly seems disruptive, and (even if there was unprovoked Googling involved) I can definitely see this working out like scenario (1) in the diff I linked above, and I honestly have no problem with that. The outing, if that is what it is, is borderline and the lesser of two evils in this case. But (assuming the above links were discovered by Googling JohnWilkinson's username) Mac Dreamstate should also be issued with a stern warning against further behaviour of this kind.

Just my two cents.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:04, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Regarding the suggestion that I Googled his name for the purpose of outing—in my staunchest defence, I only Googled the "organisation" he touted in a WP edit summary, namely the "UWBCAFO-I". From there, I arrived at the aforementioned forum posts; note that I refrained from linking to any social media accounts. Therefore if I get a warning, it will absolutely be under assumption and without proof. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 13:27, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

That edit summary is indeed weird, and I too would have likely Googled it just to try to figure out what it meant. But posting a link to a forum thread you happened across in such a search, especially in a context like the above (clearly meant to create a negative impression of a user based on something they posted off-wiki that didn't mention their Wikipedia activity), is definitely textbook WP:OUT. Whether or not you are blocked or otherwise sanctioned for it will likely depend entirely on whether your assertion that the user is a disruptive SPA is determined to be accurate. I already pointed this out above, though. I know it's not how it's supposed to work, but WP:OUT is one of those policies where the users who violate it usually only get sanctioned if they committed it against a user who was contributing to the project or if they themselves were already on the way to a site-ban. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:08, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

That's clearer to me now. If an WP:OUT violation has occurred due to my having posted the forum links, and I get a warning or sanction for it, then I will accept that as an honest mistake I made. However, if a block ensues, then I'll definitely try challenging that through the right channels (requesting unblock via talk page, I think). Mac Dreamstate (talk) 14:34, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Hijiri88 Mac has apologized and explained how he came about the linkage. In light of JW's own statements, I would be inclined to leave it just as a warning and caution Mac to approach an administrator privately about future precieved linkages to determine if they are valid for building context of an editor's PoV or if it should be kept quiet. Hasteur (talk) 15:36, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

I would be inclined to leave it just as a warning and caution Mac to approach an administrator privately about future precieved linkages Did I imply I disagreed? :P Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:56, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

User randomly adding fictional characters to ethnic categories without any evidence from the articles or anywhere else that they're accurate additions.

Sorry if this is the wrong place. This is a new account, but I'm not new here and have been dealing with vandals since at least 2005. GoldenRainbow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), however, I have no idea how to deal with, and I can't tell if the person even is a vandal or actually believes his information is correct. What this person is doing is adding fictional characters to categories such as Category:Fictional American people of Maltese descent (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs), but the problem is there's very little evidence that they belong there in many cases. I can provide more examples, but I think his history shows that he's been making a lot of edits like these. I can't go around checking all of his edits for accuracy and reverting the bad ones, so this is more to bring the edits to someones attention because he's been doing this unnoticed for some time now. Supergahd (talk) 21:37, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

• I'm very sorry guys being so adding fictional characters to ethnic categories without evidence, I will remove some of my edits. I'm cleaning them. If I revert to nor don't remove my edits, then please take them with a grain of salt until I receive word from any studios. But still, please accept my apology. I promise that if I ever add them again, I will add an explaination to "take it with a grain of salt". I will focus on other stuff instead of TV shows and movies. This is more like a dispute than an incident. GoldenRainbow (talk) 21:52, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
  • No, wait. The problem is that you're adding the items at all. If you don't have any evidence, don't add them. The information is supposed to be accurate to the best of knowledge. You're using this site, as well as other places, like IMDB and TV Tropes, to start your own "conspiracy theories" (which is what you've admitted on another site). Leaving edit reasons is not enough, because most people are not going to see it. Knowingly spreading false information is not okay. Supergahd (talk) 20:15, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
    • Okay, I just saw his recent edits, and leaving reasons like "Take them with a grain of salt till conformation from Nelvana, his actor or the creator" shows that this guy has no clue how this is supposed to work. Someone needs to deal with him. Supergahd (talk) 20:24, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
      • Indeed - this edit from today is worrying. GoldenRainbow had previously self-reverted by way of apology, and then made three edits including this one. Incidentally, I'm not as clueless as my IP status might suggest (I've been editing with various IPs for several years) but - categories on redirect pages, are they a thing? 84.93.51.170 (talk) 20:41, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
        • I'm cleaning them up. This time is for real. I'm also adding more accurate additions based on articles. Can we close this thread, I understood Gahd's advice. GoldenRainbow (talk) 21:10, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
          • @84.93.51.170: Categories on redirects are and should be rare. But they are sometimes useful when the redirected name is a better choice than the primary name for how an article should be listed within a category. There are a few of these in Category:Triangle centers, for instance, for centers that don't have their own article but are described as part of other articles. I have no opinion on their use in GoldenRainbow's edits, though. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:22, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
            • Thanks - that makes sense. 84.93.51.170 (talk) 08:21, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Eyes needed at Pizzagate and related pages

This BLPN discussion got my attention first. Relevant pages include:

• Pizzagate (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Draft:Pizzagate (conspiracy theory) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• And any pages that link to those.

Long story short, a lot of overly-vocal conspiracy theorists with a large web presence are making all kinds of claims regarding a pizza place and associates of the Clinton campaign that go well against BLP (not to mention common decency or sanity). It'd be reeeaaaallly nice to have plenty more uninvolved admin eyes who are familiar with discretionary sanctions until it settles down and the true believers go away. I'm arguably involved by this point, having tried to fix the draft (even if it's something I'd rather not touch). Ian.thomson (talk) 09:37, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Some things needed: Multiple users in those talk pages could stand to be topic banned under discretionary sanctions. The draft will probably need page protection at some point, as this topic is going to attract some WP:SPA trolls (for example, User:PingPongIsChildRape) and sockpuppets. Ian.thomson (talk) 09:50, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

• Ugh. Can it just be MfDed or AfDed (or even SPEEDYed)? It's already a non-notable cooked-up nonsensical problem, and keeping it around or posting it live will only increase the problem. Softlavender (talk) 11:46, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

I would've just deleted the draft if I could find a valid reason to, but having fixed it, I have to say that it does (unfortunately) meet WP:GNG (for now). That also doesn't resolve the problem of the disambiguation page. I can't figure any valid reason for deleting the disambiguation page, and that'd only feed the conspiracy theorists further at any rate. However, because it's a disambiguation page, we apparently aren't allowed to cite sources explaining that the conspiracy theory is debunked and founded in alt-right delusions, inviting Pizzagate believers to come in and argue that it's inappropriate to call it a conspiracy theory without a source. The course of action I'm seeing (though I'm open to suggestions) is that the draft will be tightened down to the strictest adherence to policy, put in to article space (link to that replacing the unsourced link in the disambig page), and then at least a few uninvolved admins keep eyes on it and remember to apply discretionary sanctions authorized by Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American_politics_2. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:03, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Just as a heads up to uninvolved/non-local editors, the Pizzagate conspiracy theory is unrelated to the existing Pizzagate section, which is derived from an event in football in the UK in 2004. It might be worthwhile for an admin to protect that page to keep uninformed users from trying to tie those unrelated articles together because they happen to share the heading. Thanks! Alicb (talk) 14:55, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

The draft needs to be deleted posthaste. It can't ever become an encyclopedic article. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:41, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

I agree, this isn't The Onion. I can think up WP:FRINGE, and WP:NOT off the top of my head on why this article would never make it into mainspace. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:51, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

WP:Fringe says that our articles on fringe topics uses high quality academic and journalistic sources and is dismissive of fringe ideas. I've fixed the draft to do so. What part of WP:NOT specifically precludes us from summarizing mainstream journalistic sources' dismissal of this conspiracy theory? Ian.thomson (talk) 23:06, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

• Comment An MfD discussion has been started here: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Pizzagate (conspiracy theory). - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:07, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
• Comment It's weird, I actually heard about this and tried to search for an article here, so there's that I guess. I haven't looked into the sourcing but I can see something existing. Arkon (talk) 23:30, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

I've imposed extended confirmed protection on Pizzagate due to continued disruption. Right now regular semi-protection is doing reasonably well at Comet Ping Pong - the disambiguation page must look like a safer target for drive-by disruption. A number of editors seem to think that it's not a BLP violation if you sling accusations without naming a specific person: I've attempted to correct some of them, or at least warned them. Several admins have placed DS alerts - probably BLP notices are most appropriate. And I've done a fair amount of revision deletion: there was some bad stuff happening before more eyes started looking at it. I've only done the most blatant diffs that contain direct defamation, as opposed to defamation-by-insinuation. I think oversight suppression would be appropriate for many of the revdels. Acroterion (talk) 04:30, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

• I'm watching the relevant pages and will help where I can - I won't offer any !votes or editorial opinions anywhere in order remain WP:uninvolved. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:35, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Weird activity from Kacperf

Kacperf (talk · contribs)

This user's behaviour has me stumped. Most of it seems to be pretty benign, but some of them are pretty weird, especially interpreted in light of each other.[115][116][117][118] He also curiously thanked me for this edit.

Additionally, the first edit looks like they are also these IPs[119][120] which makes it difficult to interpret as a good-faith mistake the same user made three times, and if there aren't multiple IP trolls on WAM that makes it even worse.

Thoughts? I honestly have no idea.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:51, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

The account is new, so I believe that trolling is a strong possibility. All of the users current contributions seem a bit strange, save for the sandbox edits. I also wouldn't rule this out as a new user simply edit testing, though it's odd that they thanked you for the warning. I don't think that there are enough contributions to determine if it's a compromised account or if multiple people are using it. DarkKnight2149 17:15, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Admin comment still needed DarkKnight2149 19:32, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Rangeblock for socks

Socks of Bigshowandkane (SPI linked) are continuously blanking the user pages of previous socks. Furthermore, one of the socks has left this message on my talk (in addition to this edit summary). The IPs (they are using two kinds) are all similar to each other, so would it be possible for a rangeblock? Both me and Sjones23 requested one at the SPI, but no one has responded, so I'm bringing it here for consideration (it's getting annoying and action needs to be taken of sorts). Pinging @Sro23 and Ebyabe as they are directly involved in this as well. Also to note that I will not be notifying this user since the IPs change constantly, making notification useless. JudgeRM (talk to me) 19:54, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Comment: according to the edits presented at SPI the range is 2600:1000:b000::/42. It's part of a Verizon Wireless range. I expect there would be a lot of collateral damage on this range if it were blocked. BethNaught (talk) 20:05, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Persistent attempts at censorship, tag-teaming reverts, on page for 2014 Crimean Referendum by User:Volunteer Marek

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Volunteer Marek keeps reverting content additions to the 2014 Crimean Referendum page, ignoring Wikipedia guidelines (particularly BRD), and presenting inane, hypocritical, and obviously-thin rationale for why they're removing content. Looking at the history of Volunteer Marek, and some of the administration discussions concerning this editor, it is clear that Volunteer Marek uses their editing to cultivate a dominant representation of their personal preference, while removing opposing information, regardless of how factual and thoroughly-substantiated the information they remove is, and they coat their edits with rationale that doesn't always hold up to basic common sense, or the Wikipedia guidelines.

In particular focus for this reporting, is Volunteer Marek's persistent reverting of this section, concerning GfK poll results taken from the Crimea region in January of 2015, and published in February of 2015:

GfK, a German pollster, and the 4th largest market research organization in the world, conducted a survey in the Crimean region by telephone from Ukraine between January 16 and 22, 2015, and published their results on Feb. 4, 2015. The survey's intention was to probe the satisfaction of Crimean residents in their decision to reunify with Russia, rather than re-identify with Ukraine, and was launched with support from the Canadian government's Canada Fund for Local Initiatives. The survey expected to find Crimean dissatisfaction with the 2014 Crimean referendum, but instead discovered that 82% of Crimeans "fully endorse" Crimea's secession from Ukraine and joining the Russian federation, and that 11% of Crimeans "mostly endorse" Crimea's secession from Ukraine and joining the Russian federation, while just 7% "disapprove" of Crimea's secession from Ukraine and joining the Russian federation. The results were a surprise to the poll-organizers, who had not even conducted any polling of Sevastopol, the most pro-Russia city in Crimea. The results of the GfK survey were reported by Bloomberg, Forbes, and many others. The GfK poll results are discussed in an online video, by the poll's organizer, political scientist and Ukrainian national, Taras Berezovets.

There are 3 total reverts of this section by Volunteer Marek, with each one restored, and then citations and content added to attempt to address Volunteer Marek's concerns. Each time, Volunteer Marek came up with a more flimsy rationalization for re-reverting the updated work: Volunteer Marek revert rationalization #1: '"newcoldwar.org" is not a reliable source, neither is an opinion piece' (The "opinion piece" is a Bloomberg article reporting on the GfK survey) Volunteer Marek revert rationalization #2 (after I added direct link to the full GfK PDF report, as well as a video with the poll-organizer discussing the results): "which is a primary source. Need reliable secondary sources" Volunteer Marek revert rationalization #3 (after I added citations to Forbes, WinnipegFreePress, The Oriental, all reporting the GfK survey discovery): "The bulk of this edit is still based on vkontakt and other non reliable sources."

None of these claimed-justifications for removing the content are solid, and all seem to rely on Volunteer Marek's opinion and personal preference in simply not wanting this information to be present on the Wikipedia page. Volunteer Marek has a history of editing the 2014 Crimean Referendum page, and also other pages, in a manner which keeps pulling it towards what I think is a one-sided presentation. There was a discussion on an administrator reporting page recently (I read about a week or so ago) about issues with Volunteer Marek's conduct, in which multiple people chimed in to mention issues with Volunteer Marek's editing conduct. I'm sorry that I don't know how to find that discussion, right now.

I have had similar issue with Volunteer Marek in the 2014 Crimean Referendum page, where Volunteer Marek use revert tag-teaming with Famspear in order to circumvent the 3RR rule, in violation of BRD, which states that a 3rd-party is forbidden to join in someone else's edit-warring. In that incident, BRD was cited as the justification for edit-reverting, insisting that discussion was required prior to making edits (despite no criticism of the edits having been brought up by those claiming BRD), and despite BRD saying many times over that "BRD is never a reason for reverting":

- "BRD is not a policy, though it is an oft-cited essay. This means it is not a process that you can require other editors to follow."

- "BRD is never a reason for reverting"

- "Don't invoke BRD as your reason for reverting someone else's work"

- "BRD is not an excuse to revert any change more than once. If your reversion is met with another bold effort, then you should consider not reverting, but discussing. The talk page is open to all editors, not just bold ones."

- "Before reverting, first consider whether the original text could have been better improved in a different way or if part of the edit can be fixed to preserve some of the edit, and whether you would like to make that bold edit instead."

- "If you revert twice, then you are no longer following the BRD cycle: If your reversion is reverted, then there may be a good reason for it."

- "Some editors may invoke this process by name in the edit summary; however, BRD is never a reason for reverting."

- "BRD is not a policy, though it is an oft-cited essay. This means it is not a process that you can require other editors to follow."

- "Warning: engaging in similar behavior by reverting a contribution during an edit war could be seen as disruptive and may garner sanctions. Never continue an edit war as an uninvolved party."

- "No edit, regardless of how large it is, requires any prior discussion."

- "Don't invoke BRD as your reason for reverting someone else's work or for edit warring"

Volunteer Marek appears to me to make a lot of political edits, with the edits all aiming to move the appearance of subject-presentation towards favouring a particular perspective. And in the case of the 2014 Crimean referendum, Volunteer Marek has repeatedly undone great swaths of work without raising valid justification, while veiling their rationalization for doing so as some small personal issue. And Volunteer Marek doesn't accept when their presented criticisms are addressed in an updated edits, and instead just shifts their criticism to something else, or to make up something obviously opinionated or baseless, to form an excuse to just revert the edited work.

I would very much appreciate a review of this section of the 2014 Crimean Referendum page, and hope for a resolution to this disruptive and anti-editor behaviour. Thanks!

BTW, I tried to post a mention of this on Volunteer Marek's Wikipedia page, but I can't access it right now. I just get a blank screen when I visit their Talk page: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/User_talk:Volunteer_Marek

A Registered Poster (talk) 20:08, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

References

Not addressing the matter of Marek's conduct, for which I admittedly lazily invoke TL;DR, I think it might be worth noting that the original poster here has according to his history here only edited in two subject areas since the middle of the year, when the account was created, and a rather smallish number of edits in total. John Carter (talk) 20:34, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

If I may ask, why might that be notable? The edits bring much information that is / was missing to the subjects, expanding their wiki pages with full substantiation through citation of usually-direct sources. Apart from Volunteer Marek, nobody has raised any issue with the edited content. And whenever Volunteer Marek's claimed issues were addressed and fully resolved, they shifted their criticism to increasingly-flimsy and hypocritical concerns, to the point that there is no question that the issue has not been so much with the content that I've added (note, "content I've added," rarely removing or modifying pre-existing content) but with a personal bias in the person initiating the reverts. I believe that if my edits are good, then they deserve to stand. And that if my edits require minor fixing to be good, then they deserve to have those minor fixes mentioned, and not the full (sometimes many hours of) works reverted, as recommended in BRD A Registered Poster (talk) 21:40, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

@A Registered Poster: If you are so concerned about your work being reverted, why have you not engaged in any discussion about your prospective edits on the article's talk page? —C.Fred (talk) 21:58, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

@C.Fred: When criticism has been mentioned, I have been able to address those criticisms and have edited the content to resolve those criticisms - and I think that common sense expects that to be the end of the matter. If there's something further to be discussed, I cannot know that because I am not a mind-reader, and I cannot start discussing on the talk page what I don't even know to exist as an issue. Wikipedia BRD says:

- BRD is not an excuse to revert any change more than once. If your reversion is met with another bold effort, then you should consider not reverting, but discussing. The talk page is open to all editors, not just bold ones.

- BRD is not a valid excuse for reverting good-faith efforts to improve a page simply because you don't like the changes.

If an editor has already reverted a work, then the work is restored and edited to address their criticisms, yet the original revert-initiating editor is persistent in reverting the edited work, each time shifting their issue-citation, then it becomes apparent that their initial concern wasn't the actual issue with the content... if each time that issue is solved, some other flimsier issue is then cited. If those latter issues were in fact the underlying issues, then they would have been mentioned first, and not after all previous issues were addressed head-on, to full resolution. This is a case of moving the goal-posts with the intention being to keep one aspect of the subject from having significant representation on the page.

Volunteer Marek's reverts have consistently ignored that their criticisms were addressed, and always moved the goal post to something more inane and opinionated, in order to revert the same information. Also, moving to revert large amounts of good-faith work rather than bringing up the select issues and allowing them to be rectified is behaviour that is not condoned by Wikipedia's guidelines in the first place:

- Before reverting, first consider whether the original text could have been better improved in a different way or if part of the edit can be fixed to preserve some of the edit, and whether you would like to make that bold edit instead. The other disputant may respond with another bold edit, or with a refinement on your improvement. The "Bold–refine" process is the ideal collaborative editing cycle. Improving pages through collaborative editing is ideal. However, if you find yourself making reversions or near-reversions, then stop editing and move to the next stage, "Discuss".

Volunteer Marek has not attempted to bring forth their issues before reverting, and has instead constantly reverted as much content as possible, citing rationale that, when addressed through edits, they make clear wasn't the their primary motivation to remove the content.

And then there is also this: "Revert an edit if it is not an improvement, and it cannot be immediately fixed by refinement. Consider reverting only when necessary. BRD does not encourage reverting, but recognizes that reverts will happen. When reverting, be specific about your reasons in the edit summary and use links if needed."'

My edits expanded their respective subject coverage, unquestionably improving their Wikipedia pages. To blanket-revert them, while citing ever-finicky rationalization for it, is outright against Wikipedia's recommended conduct, respect for other editors, their time, and effort, and the factual details of those subjects. A Registered Poster (talk) 22:20, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Editing behaviour of User:Spacecowboy420

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Spacecowboy420 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

1. On the article Korean ethnic nationalism, the user set back several versions that I edited. I explained what has been removed on the talk page. The user demands me that I have to contact the authors who added the specific parts removed. Although, Spacecowboy420 never contacts any others when he removes large parts from articles. He does not give any arguments against my edits, he just says I would have to ask other users for permission.

Side note: I asked for a third opinion and mentioned in on WikiProject Sociology

Moreover, the user added knowingly false content. He added: "Even the United States, an ally of South Korea, has expressed concern over the harsh and ubiquitous nature of South Korean racism, with the [[United States Department of Education|U.S. Department of Education]] releasing a report on the matter in 2009.<ref name=PaulJambor/>" (diff)

However, it is not an official document of the United States. Paul Jambor is an English language instructor in Korea and the article expresses his opinion and not an official government opinion. Spacecowboy420 also knew about it, since he participated in a previous discussion where a user reported the problem with the source so that it had been removed (diff). Still, he describes his edit as "awesome".

2. The user claims other users to be sockpuppet accounts without any proves.

Diffs:

• [121]
• [122]
• [123]

The edits User:Teamupsmith made on the article China–South Korea Free Trade Agreement were correct and I told Spacecowboy420 on his talk page. Still, he thinks it was okay to undo it since the user would be a "sockpuppet".

This has been an issue before, but Spacecowboy420 never responded to it. Neither Teamupsmith nor AmericanExpat are banned or blocked. --Christian140 (talk) 20:11, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Disregarding any claims about edit warring, a Google search appears to confirm Christian40's description of the Jambor paper as not being a document of the US Department of Education. Indeed, it appears not to be peer-reviewed at all, [124], and therefore is not a reliable source. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:21, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

You appear to be edit-warring against WP:BRD. If you want your contested version to prevail, gain consensus. I've restored the longstanding version as per SC - go discuss the changes in a civil fashion, please. Any more edit-warring and I'll report both of you at WP:3RRN. --Pete (talk) 22:10, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Christian140's edits are quit POV and disruptive. The editor is also edit warring on Health in South Korea. Christian140 violated WP:3RR on the article.[125]―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 22:40, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

It appears to me that you are both equally culpable in this edit war. My recommendation is to forget about this ANI complaint, head back to the talk page, and continue to follow dispute resolution. Spacecowboy is as likely to be blocked for edit warring as you are. Also remember that there is no rush. If your changes to an article are an obvious improvement, then consensus will fall on your side, eventually. It's no big deal if the wrong version persists for a while. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:45, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

1. This is a content dispute. I don't really want to waste other editor's/admins' time on something that can be dealt with on the article talk page.

2. Re. Sockpuppets. The article in question (as well as numerous other articles) have been the subject to a large amount of sock edits by a confirmed and indef blocked user. This new editor that I reverted followed exactly the same pattern and worked on the same articles as the blocked user and all of his sock puppets. It is more than fair to call it a sock account and treat it as one, seeing that quite blatantly is on. See https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Massyparcer/Archive for more details, for more details. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:30, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Note: I'm doing what I should have done straight away, and making an SPI. At least that has a chance of clearing one part of this mini-drama. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:42, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rangeblock required

Hi. I noticed an IP vandalising User talk:GiantSnowman and realised that the same editor has been attacking other editors (for example User talk:Kelisi) and edited Margaret Rhodes, but they have been using different IP adresses. Could we have a rangeblock please? Qed237 (talk) 20:39, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

You'd probably want at least 85.255.233/24 and 85.255.235/24. They're quite busy ranges and could only be blocked for a short time unless there's something seriously disruptive - IMO, semi-protection is a better option. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 20:54, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

@Zzuuzz: Okay, I dont know much about different ranges but since this was attacks against user talkpages I thought it was best with rangeblock so that other editors still can discuss. Qed237 (talk) 21:15, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

And it continues... Qed237 (talk) 12:20, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Please! Now again a new IP was blocked by User:Widr after block evasion and attacking editors. Qed237 (talk) 22:04, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

I've protected one user talk page. I assume GiantSnowman can take care of their own. The article itself is protected for the next week. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 22:14, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

It goes without saying that I dont agree. Now a lot of new editors and other IP can not speak to User:Kelisi. It is better to stop the abusing person from editing and at the moment the can still be disruptive at talkpage of User:GiantSnowman. Qed237 (talk) 22:26, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Block lots of unregistered users from everywhere, or any who post to one talk page. It's an age old conundrum, but from what I've seen there's more unregistered users editing everywhere than talk page posters. Other admins are welcome to have a different view. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 22:32, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Range block for disruptive IP editor who changes sourced content

I've reported this IP to AIV, where I suggested a range block, but it was declined without comment. The range 2A02:C7D:561D:1D00::/64 has repeatedly changed sourced content, added unsourced content, and made other disruptive edits. Examples:

• diff
• diff
• diff
• diff
• diff
• diff
• diff

If you click on the citations, you'll see the changes fail verification. In 2015, Sergecross73 left this message on the talk page of an IP editor on this range. It seems to indicate that this is a well-known editor who is engaging in block evasion, but he didn't include the username, so I don't know who it is. The edits seem to be the same, including the obsession with Sony's name: diff from 2015, diff from 2016. This seems to be the same editor as 2A02:C7D:564B:D300::/64, though that range hasn't been used since earlier this month. There's another range, 2a02:c7d:75d7:9300::/64, which was range blocked by Zzuuzz for a year on 11 September 2016 for block evasion by Callump90. The ISP is the same, but the edits don't quite match up perfectly. The 9300 IP's edits show an obsession with the BBC that doesn't seem to exist on the other ranges I've listed here. Maybe someone knows more than I do, though. Sorry for the pings, but I'd really like to get this resolved. Reporting it to AIV doesn't seem to be accomplishing anything, and I don't have enough confidence that it's Callump90 to bring it to SPI. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 06:21, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: The AIV report was not declined, it was simply wholesale removed, by Widr [126], along with three reports that had actually been responded to by admins. Widr, can you please explain your action (I'm guessing it was an oversight)? NinjaRobotPirate's report had even been endorsed by a third party [127]. -- Softlavender (talk) 08:59, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Seems to have been an oversight, yes. On the other hand, at the time the report had been sitting there for several hours without any admin touching it, making it more or less stale. ANI is usually a better venue for reports that can't be or aren't actioned withing minutes. Widr (talk) 09:23, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

• In regards to the part I was pinged about - yes, throughout 2015/early 2016, I blocked a large number of IPs by someone who also used a few user names containing the words "Zachary" and "Atlus" in them, so that's what we'd usually usually refer to him as, though he more frequently edited anonymously. He would make tons of minor changes to article that upon spot checking, had a high percentage of being wrong. (Fundamental stuff, like saying Nintendo published Disney video games and the like - undeniably not true.) Any attempts to talk to him about this usually lead to silence, with the occasional outburst of saying "Screw you, Serge!" as the dif above shows - never actually addressing any concerns or defending any actions. So we moved to blocking and reverting on-sight. Eventually, I had someone do some range blocks on him (I'm still struggle with them personally) and he seemed to go away for a bit, but if this is indeed him, then I fully encourage further blocks/range blocks. Huge WP:COMPETENCE issue. There was literally no getting through to him, and he refused to stop. Sergecross73 msg me 14:05, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

• Just recalled one of his original user names - AtlusZachary, where he (inexplicably) lists a ton of his interests on his talk page after I blocked him. They were in fact a lot of places where he'd cause trouble too, and as you can see, he did obsess over tweaking television related articles like BBC and NBC. Sergecross73 msg me 14:09, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

• The more I look into it, the more it seems to be Zachary. I saw the IP reported above making the same edits as the IP 31.52.4.146 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), which was more blatantly acting like Zachary, including getting blocked for bad edits and page moves, and having outbursts on his talk page. I'm blocking the IP for now, as he's still making edits today, but please consider implementing a range block too. Sergecross73 msg me 14:30, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

It is AtlusZachary. He's largely kept away from video game articles as of late so I've ignored him, but he's still adding unsourced garbage and incorrect information to articles after nearly 2 years. He was already range blocked once (or maybe twice) before, and he should be range blocked again. He's very persistent, I've reported well over 100 of his IP addresses in the past for blocks. --The1337gamer (talk) 18:13, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Ongoing premature edits without reliable sources

User:Aaron's The Best is a user actively engaged in editing articles concerning Australian television channels. However, on multiple occasions, he has come into conflict with WP:CRYSTALBALL and WP:RELIABLE over premature edits that he bases on unreliable sources and/or personal speculation. Such examples include the following:

1. October 2016: The renaming of the article Food Network (Australia) to SBS Food Network because, and I quote, "It's all because of SBS Viceland's name. SBS are probably doing an mistake by referring the channel (Food) without SBS in its name, but they are referring the Viceland channel WITH SBS in its name. So it looks like that's what the channel should be called", speculating a change that even now has no backing whatsoever. I questioned him on his talk page concerning this and explained the policy behind the reversion of his edits.
2. November 2016: Premature edits to the article SBS Viceland by changing the name of the channel from its then-current name (SBS 2) to the rebranded "SBS Viceland" before the rebrand occured.
3. November 2016: Premature edits to the article ABC HD (Australian TV channel) based on then-speculation concerning the network's launch of high definition simulcasting with no reliable sources to support his editing. I cautioned him on his talk page concerning this and again cited policy.
4. December 2016: The renaming of the article Prime HD to Prime7HD based on speculation concerning the network's possible future launch of high definition simulcasting with no reliable sources to support his editing.. I have cautioned him on his talk page concerning this, citing different policy in addition to that cited in previous instances.

It appears that despite my continual contact to advise him of policy and offer assistance in future, he has not taken this on board and continues to erratically edit articles in this manner. – Nick Mitchell 98 ^talk 08:50, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

I think this user has a WP:COMPETENCE problem. Despite being very new, he has carried out a large number of ill-considered page moves, as shown by the messages on his talk page. This would not be so bad if he would communicate and we could be sure he was taking the comments on board. However, he never replies, so it is hard to gauge what is going on with him. He just carries on with more of the same. A block would at least force him to engage and speak to other editors. SpinningSpark 14:22, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Hello, it's Aaron and I have listened to you. I'm pretty sorry about adding info on articles of Aussie TV channels that are actually rumours from the MediaSpy forums. Lucky that ABC HD one was confirmed a few days later by the ABC themselves. Also, I'm sorry about the Food Network move, since SBS don't refer Food Network with SBS in it's name, but they do refer Viceland with SBS in it's name! I won't add any rumours from the MediaSpy forums anymore. Thanks. Aaron's The Best (talk) 21:04, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for that Aaron. It would be helpful in future if you tried to reply to people when they contact you on your talk page. SpinningSpark 22:04, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Aaron, we are here to help. If we leave a message on your talk page concerning your edits and you do not understand, please respond so that we can help you. I think that it would be best for you to step back from moving pages for the moment so that you can learn more about the process to prevent incidents like this in future. – Nick Mitchell 98 ^talk 04:14, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

@Aaron's The Best: Just because you are occasionally vindicated in your premature edits doesn't entitle you to make so many errors. Until it's reported by the subject in a press release or covered in generally accepted reliable sources you shouldn't edit wikipedia to include information. This especially includes rumors on forums. Hasteur (talk) 15:50, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

User:Niele~enwiki reported by User:Beshogur (Result:)

Page

Qabasin (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Kurdish tribes (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Ezidkhan (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

User being reported

Niele~enwiki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user called me three times "racist" and "vandal". I think this user should get sanctions. This user must read: Wikipedia:No personal attacks article.

1. [128] "with the by anti-Kurdish racist laws in Turkey banned letter Q"
2. [129] "Undid racism-motivated vandalism of currently blocked kurdophobic and armenophobic user"
3. [130] "Undoing a rasism-inspired edit"

Beshogur (talk) 10:14, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Could also be using an IP to edit (same type of language used in edit summaries), breaking WP:3RR: [131], [132], & [133] --Darth Mike^(talk) 13:00, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Those edit summaries are pretty bad, and content-wise I'm not a fan of (for example) overly-long section titles that are clearly only included to appease nationalist readers and make reading more of a slog for the rest of us, or replacing legit variant names with what is clearly the same name spelled slightly differently. Or, for that matter, claiming that a user who has received a short block for edit-warring should therefore have their edits to other articles reverted with impunity. That said, the user has a clean block log -- would a warning be enough? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:16, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Changed my mind. "Ctrl+F"ing "block" in their contribs brought this up. No one who thinks "This user was only edit-warring with Beshogur, who has also been blocked for edit-warring in the past -- is that really all that bad?" is a valid reason to unblock someone should be allowed to continue thinking in that way and contributing to Wikipedia. Maybe if Niele had a block in their own log they would stop haranguing Beshogur about the block the latter received two weeks ago. I say block for 24 hours since it's the first time they are getting blocked (although probably not their first offense). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:27, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

• Beshogur, you are obligated to notify the user of this thread, using the red template at the top of this page. Softlavender (talk) 13:25, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and done this for Beshogur. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 13:26, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Technically, there is no obligation to use any particular template to notify someone that they are being discussed on ANI. I think what was meant was per the red/orange template at the top of the page. :P Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:29, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

I have left a warning on Niele~enwiki's talk page, as the edit summaries presented here are personal attacks and are not positive nor collaborative in regards to proper dispute resolution and interaction behavior. If this continues, this user can be blocked for disruption and repeated violations of Wikipedia's civility policy. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 13:35, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: The article was in a perfectly stable condition as this [134] for three years, until this edit on 22 August 2016 [135] by an IP changing "is a Kurdish town" to "is an Arabic town", which precipitated an edit war that has lasted up to the present moment. The edit-summaries quoted aren't great, but every single one of you is edit-warring and ethnicity- and nationality-warring, and you are all going to end up blocked if you don't collaborate and discuss and provide sources instead of edit-warring. The only editor who has even bothered posting on the article's talk page is Ferakp. You all should take a lesson from him. In essence this is a content dispute and should be settled on the talk page, with formal dispute resolution if needed. I recommend that an admin return the article to its previous stable state [136], full-protecting it, and having the editors discuss on article-talk until sourcing and WP:CONSENSUS is reached. Softlavender (talk) 13:39, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, and the OP mistook ANI for ANEW (look at the formatting). No one's hands are clean. If the OP had actually posted this on ANEW, I would agree that page protection and warnings all around was the solution. But the OP presented diffs of a bunch of edits to different articles whose edits summaries included unacceptable personal attacks and a clear misunderstanding of the nature of our blocking policy. Throwing other users' block logs in their faces is uncivil and despicable. Using other users' block logs as an excuse to revert their edits is worse still. Using other users' having been blocked for edit-warring as an excuse for edit-warring with them is just plain ridiculous. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:49, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Softlavender: I may not have been clear enough with the above. I think you have misunderstood the OP's post (through no fault of your own, mind you -- it was not formatted well). When you say "the article", it is not at first clear which of the three separate articles you are referring to. It is also clear you have not looked at the other diff I dug up of Niele saying that only users on the other "side" should be blocked for edit-warring. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:54, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

By the way: "I am reverting your edit because you have been blocked for edit-warring" seems to be this month's "theme" on ANI. Over the course of December 1, I commented in four threads, basically at random, and of those two of them involved someone doing just this.[137][138] Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:00, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't think he mistook ANI for ANEW. He simply used the format used at ANEW to report a behavioral issue (edit summaries he didn't like) at ANI. The problem is, he's going to run into a WP:BOOMERANG here because he is the one engaging in nationality-warring, ethnicity-warring, and disruptive-editing against longterm status quo without talk-page discussion, consensus, or citations. In my view, the edit-summaries are pretty accurate except for the word "vandalism"; none of them actually specifically call the other editor racist (although one says "racism motivated" and one says "racism inspired", neither of which should occur in edit-summaries), and the first one only calls the Turkish laws that banned the letter "Q" racist. Softlavender (talk) 14:11, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

I just am not seeing it. Yeah, he comes across as a nationalist, but so do his opponents. Turkish nationalism is not, in my view, as reprehensible and automatically ban-worthy as some of the other overt racism we've seen on this noticeboard over the last few months. Don't get me wrong: it's not a good ideology. But it is only as much out-of-line with Wikipedia's NPOV policy as Kurdish nationalism, Armenian nationalism and Arab nationalism. And as far as I am concerned, when it comes to edit-warring the edit-warring itself (for which he has already been blocked) is less of a concern than his opponents' constantly trying to paint the block as his edits being condemned by the admin corps on content and using it as an excuse to revert his edits. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 21:43, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

BTW (missed this): regarding none of them actually specifically call the other editor racist, the edit summaries you refer to in the following parentheses are pretty difficult to interpret as not calling the OP racist, and the other diff I dug up describes the OP as being known for vandalism based on hate toward other ethnicity in a bogus unblock request on behalf of someone who was blocked for violating his own unblock conditions, because apparently an exception should be applied for when one is edit-warring with someone who is known for vandalism based on hate toward other ethnicity. That sqid, I would not be opposed to a block or other sanction of Beshogur for any actual edit-warring or POV-pushing he has been doing in addition to a short block of Niele so he stops trying to game the system by undoing others' edits and arguing in favour of edit-warring with those editors solely based on their block logs. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:38, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Dear Ferakp, it has nothing to do with me. "Qabasin is a Kurdish town" was just based on self reports. I just changed it to "a Syrian town" because it has not any reliable sources. Even the sources you added were based on Twitter reports. Beshogur (talk) 13:52, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

"with the by anti-Kurdish racist laws in Turkey banned letter Q"

-> I called a law racist, not a person = No personal attack

"Undid racism-motivated vandalism of currently blocked kurdophobic and armenophobic user"

--> I'm calling 'actions' racism-motivated, not a person = no personal attack. Offcourse I'm morally implied to detect racism motivated edits against minorities. This should not have a place on wikipedia.

"Undoing a rasism-inspired edit".

-->I'm calling 'actions' racism-motivated, not a person = no personal attack. Offcourse I'm morally implied to detect racism motivated edits against minorities. This should not have a place on wikipedia.

Please take look at the edit-history of user Beshogur https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Beshogur&offset=&limit=5000&target=Beshogur

Everyone can look at User:Beshogur edit history and see this user is dedicating the last year of his live to target info over the minorities that are standing in the way of his pan-Turkish/neo-Ottoman ideals. You can spare a huge amount of decent Wikipedia users valuable time by blocking him indefinitely. Because after multiple blocks and dozens of warnings he will not learn to stop edit warring and he is damaging Wikipedia with his behavior. I'm distressed by so much hate from this user toward other etnicities and minorities and action should be taken ban in from wikipedia because this kind of 'hate-accounts', targeting of other etnicities should not be tolerated. It is important to detect this 'hate-phenomenon' and report it. He seems not learning out it and just keeps going on, trying to attack/block all decent wikipedia-users that stands in his way. (He already managed to block 2 wikipedia-users in the past 2 days because they where carefully when reverting someone making problematic edits)--Niele~enwiki (talk) 14:02, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

No one here wants to help either you or Beshogur with your content dispute. Please refrain from making personal attacks in edit summaries, and please read over WP:BLOCK before mentioning other users' block logs in the future. If you cannot do this, you should not be editing Wikipedia. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:17, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

He didn't mention anyone's "block log" (he called the editor "currently blocked"), nor is there any restriction on mentioning other editors' block logs (it's fairly common to do so when there are major infractions requiring administrative intervention) or the fact that they are blocked, although mentioning it about an otherwise longterm editor who is merely on a 24-hour block for edit-warring (as opposed to a blocked vandal or site-banned editor) is not advisable. Softlavender (talk) 14:47, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

@Softlavender: He didn't mention anyone's "block log" Please read others' comments before responding. This is my third time posting this diff. this [Arbitration Enforcement block] is an immense mistake and highly disproportionate [...] Pbfreespace just reverted edits of user Beshogur, that was just last week blocked for edit warring is unacceptable IDHT, KETTLE and UNCIVIL. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:03, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

He didn't use the term "block log", and that's only the second time you've posted that diff, and you didn't previously post it in conjunction with the term "block log" when you first posted it: [139]. There's also no restriction on mentioning other editor's blocks when discussing their problematic behavior. Softlavender (talk) 05:23, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

He didn't use the term "block log" I didn't say he used the term. I said he was repeatedly bringing up the OP's block log. You don't need to say "block log" to talk about someone's block log, as is evidenced by the fact that he did. that's only the second time you've posted that diff You are right, and that was apparently only the second time I posted that diff. I don't remember what exactly happened, but it's possible that I abandoned a draft comment that included it, or that this comment originally included the diff, or that I had misremembered it thus. Either way, I apologize for the mistake. you didn't previously post it in conjunction with the term "block log" when you first posted it Again, you are nitpicking the words I used. I was talking about throwing someone's block log in their face as an excuse to be allowed edit war and violate editing restrictions. My not having used the words "block log" is irrelevant. There's also no restriction on mentioning other editor's blocks when discussing their problematic behavior Yes, and? Edit summaries are not the place to discuss someone's problematic behaviour. In the context of the diff in question, he was not even supposed to be discussing the OP's problematic behaviour -- he was requesting that an exception be made to someone else's 1RR restriction/final-warning in the case of edit-warring with this one user because that user happens to have also been blocked for edit-warring. And, again, reverting someone's edits because they are currently blocked, or were at one point in the past blocked, for edit-warring shows a hilarious lack of self-awareness on Niele's part. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:17, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Calling a law racist? Hahaha so much fun. Since when became laws "racist", as far I know, Turkey is a secular, democratic country. Beshogur (talk) 14:58, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

• "Everyone can look at User:Beshogur edit history and see this user is dedicating the last year of his live to target info over the minorities that are standing in the way of his pan-Turkish/neo-Ottoman ideals." Niele~enwiki, I do agree that Beshogur's edits on Kurdish tribes and Qabasin (articles which have already been mentioned here) amount to that, but in terms of the rest of his edits, no one on ANI wants to sift through a year's worth of a user's edits to find other examples. If you would like to submit more examples, in the form of WP:DIFFs, feel free. Softlavender (talk) 14:35, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Another recent example: [140]. User Beshogur deleted the Armenian name of the town claiming that a simiar issue had been discussed on Talk:Erzurum as if on this page some solution or consensus had been reached to delete Armenian names in similar cases. In reality on Talk:Erzurum several users said that the Armenian name should be kept because of the towns Armenian history before the Armenian genocide. If this were some isolated incident I wouldn't care but in the case of user Beshogur this is part of a systematic campaign to delete information about Armenian, Kurdish, ... people on wikipedia. This is just one more example of why user Beshogur is under discussion on "User:Beshogur reported by User:Niele~enwiki (Result: )". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:77:4F27:1E56:E939:EB0D:3945:C408 (talk) 21:58, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

• Niele~enwiki, it does appear (as Darth Mike mentioned above) that you my have edited logged out to perpetuate an edit-war, using the same edit summaries, on the two articles already mentioned here: Special:Contributions/2003:77:4F1B:5796:81B5:DA58:A387:AECC, and probably also here: Special:Contributions/2003:77:4F5E:9768:A5E8:6AAD:EC76:3314. Oshwah, could you give the user a formal warning on their talk page against doing that in the future, if it seems like this was the registered account evading detection? Softlavender (talk) 15:05, 1 December 2016 (UTC); edited 15:17, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Also this one. Beshogur (talk) 15:09, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

1) I did the edits mentioned above with IP 2003:77:.... To clarify: I'm not Niele, I do not know Niele and I'm not in contact with Niele. I've been doing minor edits here and there as an IP user without having an account. By chance I ran into some anti-Kurdish vandalism by the user Beshogur and found that he is doing it systematically. I have now observed his destructive and malicious behaviour for a while by following his activity. Wikipedia should have the technical tools to separate my activities from Niele's activities. (I prefer to remain anonymous in order not to come under attack by Turkish nationalists.)

2) Though Beshogur is sometimes doing some constructive work in articles concerning Turkish history he systematically erases and distorts information about Kurdish, Armenian and Yazidi people. While I agree that comments like "racism-motivated vandalism" should be avoided, I have to say that that often exactly describes what Beshogur is doing.

3) On the discussion page "User:Beshogur reported by User:Niele~enwiki (Result: )" there is a list of some 20 examples (as Beshogur pointed out there, in maybe 5 cases he is right, but the other cases are examples of a behaviour exactly as Niele described). If one would go deeper into his edit history I'm sure one could collect 100s of such examples.

4) I find it strange that a user who calls other users "Bunch of idi...s. Beshogur (talk) 17:54, 21 November 2016 (UTC)" on User_talk:Niele~enwiki#Stop_calling_me_racist complains about users who call some of his actions "racism-motivated" if they clearly seem to be racism-motivated.

I think the behaviour of User:Beshogur should not be tolerated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:77:4F27:1E56:E939:EB0D:3945:C408 (talk) 17:34, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

• Since I was tagged to this conversation, I would like to add some things. I have to admit that some edits of Beshogur have been nationalistic and he has practiced cherry picking. It's usually difficult to make him understand that there is a talk page and reliable sources are needed to confirm his edits. That's all what I can say.Ferakp (talk) 16:01, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Sockpuppets of Niele:

1. [141] Sockpuppet 1
2. [142] Sockpuppet 2
3. [143] Sockpuppet 3
4. [144] Sockpuppet 4

Beshogur (talk) 23:17, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

As explained above I did the edits with IP 2003:77:.... and I'm not Niele. Beshogur should stop making false accusations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:77:4F27:1E56:E939:EB0D:3945:C408 (talk) 00:01, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Dear IP-hopper: Even though you geolocate to a country that is contiguous to where Niele~enwiki purportedly lives according to his userpage (last edited in 2010), you are engaging in the exact same behaviors as Niele~enwiki, with even the exact same edit summaries. Therefore, you give every appearance of being him. I therefore suggest that you either register an account, or stop targeting Beshogur's edits. Otherwise, I personally believe that you may face sanctions, per our WP:DUCK and WP:TAGTEAM guidelines. Softlavender (talk) 05:50, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

New day - new IP (but similar, again starting with 2003:77...). There is no contact or coordination with Niele whatsoever. I just saw a comment "racism-motivated vandalism" and used it as well because to me it seemed that this exactly describes what Beshogur is doing. Recently I haven't been using this term, instead writing "anti-Kurdish vandalism" or "anti-Armenian vandalism" which is more neutral but still raises awareness of what Beshogur is doing. I'm not an experienced user - please let me know which other methods are available to stop a user like Beshogur from systematically deleting content about certain groups of people. With an account there is still the problem that one user could operate several accounts, isn't it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:77:4F27:1E56:D49E:9A3B:219F:FF9C (talk) 09:25, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

I do not have sock-puppets and I never used a other account than User:Niele~enwiki and User:Niele (originating from automated multi-languages transfer). Niele is my frontname, and I'm highly valualing always using always my own real name in wikipedia. Can someone please investigate these IP-accounts and prove that this isn't me; so these baseless claims can be burried. I'm working only from a normal home-cable-account from Belgium's Telenet internet provider from the village of Alken, Belgium. Not from other locations and I don't even have a cellphone or laptop to surf from other locations.--Niele~enwiki (talk) 07:28, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Also sorry if you're not the IP users but I'm tired about that. Beshogur (talk) 11:48, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Range block needed - LTA IP editor who reverts Eik Corell

The LTA IP editor who goes around reverting Eik Corell has been active this week on multiple IPs. They seem to be able to change it and come back within 12 hours of each block.

IPs used this week so far: 86.187.162.39 86.187.166.1 86.187.165.193 86.187.169.241

Three of the recent past discussions: here, here and here.

Thanks. -- ferret (talk) 13:22, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Which LTA is this, if you do not mind me asking? I cannot think who it is; I cannot see them at WP:LTA. Patient Zero^talk 13:25, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Apologies. I've used LTA as a general term, as this has been going on for two years or longer to my knowledge. It is not a listed LTA case. -- ferret (talk) 13:33, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Ah, easily done Ferret. Do not worry! I can see why one would class the IP as an LTA in the same way one might class the UK referendum user (long name; remember him?) as an LTA. Perhaps "troll" would be more appropriate, I guess. Patient Zero^talk 13:57, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

User now editing as 86.187.175.73. They changed their IP within an hour of last block. -- ferret (talk) 14:11, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

FYI: An edit-filter was implemented to counter these edits. More recent activity of theirs here. AccountForANI (talk) 15:01, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

The IP may be partially aware of this, as I noted variation of the "rv v" edit note being used. -- ferret (talk) 15:19, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

New IP, 86.187.170.193 -- ferret (talk) 17:18, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

I thought we had an edit filter for this. I'll ping our resident edit filter experts that I think were handling this edit filter. @Samtar:, @MusikAnimal: --Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ ^(Talk) 03:17, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

MA was the brains behind the filter, but I can see they are evading it - I'll have a look at the IPs contribs and try to update the filter -- samtar ^{talk or stalk} 13:31, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

The filter was off. I've turned it back on — MusikAnimal ^talk 16:41, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Category talk:WikiProject Law articles

Could an admin please have a look at the history of Category talk:WikiProject Law articles. An IP-hopping editor keeps adding large blocks of copied text. Some of it appears to be personal email correspondence that might need revdel for privacy reasons (it's non-English, so I'm not sure). To a lesser degree, the IPs have occasionally done the same thing on other pages, so the same revdel may be needed elsewhere as well (Talk:Fuad, Talk:Email service provider (marketing), etc.) Thanks. Deli nk (talk) 16:29, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

FWIW, I have found dozens more instances of this "spam" (I don't know what else to call it), with the oldest apparently being by Againstotrure (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) in 2008, so this has been going on for many years. See my recent edits. Perhaps an edit filter? Deli nk (talk) 17:58, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

• There was nothing but spam in the history of the talk page, so I just deleted it and restored the first two revisions. - Mike Rosoft (talk) 19:43, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
• I have cleaned up the other talk pages. - Mike Rosoft (talk) 19:55, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

User:Hob_Gadling

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Hob Gadling (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Various interruptive, abusive and uncivil behavior in the past. I registered a recent condescend and abusive comment [145] on the Skeptical Movement talkpage and deleted it. I went to Hob Gadlings's user page with the intend to provide a civility warning. There was already one, about the same talk page, from another user and about another incident. User_talk:Hob_Gadling#NPA. Hob Gadling answered the first civility warning with another accusation against me, That guy has been lying like crazy. My civility warning has been deleted as "cleaned up bullshit". [146]. I am far from playing the damsel in distress here, but it has been way too much now. And I have the impression that User:Hob Gadling is disturbing WP and various talk pages playing on a personal feud and starting to harrass me. That is far from being in line with basic policies and it starts to disrupt due process and it annoys other users as well. [147]. Polentarion Talk 19:15, 1 December 2016 (UTC) PS.: "as above" repeats the behavior according WP:Uncivil "as above"

I see the diffs, and the user was clearly being uncivil. However, you made it sound as if the personal attacks have been somewhat excessive, and you didn't provide any diffs to prove persistent harassment or that the user is disturbing Wikipedia because of a grudge against you. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but more proof may be necessary before an admin would take action. DarkKnight2149 20:19, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Action towards persistent harassment, I mean. As previously mentioned, the comments that you did provide diffs for were uncivil. DarkKnight2149 20:27, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

One about the impression of feuding: [148]. "lying again", "weasel" at Ebell.

Another about the allegation of Ebell killing people: he is okay with third-world people dying as a result of his ideas. NOw I asked him wether it meant he accused Ebell of being a Killer. Answer is an interesting question "What do you mean, killer? ... Just the thing Ebell wants to do, right? ... Do you object to Lysenko because he did what he did in the name the the Working Masses, and are all in favor of the same basic idea if it is executed in the name of Free Markets?" and "don't bother to explain it; your tales are usually not very relevant to the matter at hand.". It might be (mis)understood as refering to me - as if he accuses both me and Ebell as killers, botching science and accepting people dying due to a misguided policy then.

Further examples: multiabusive approach alluding to "brown nosing", "My experience with your behaviour on WP over the previous years tells me that it would have been a bitch to ask you questions". Honestly, I am not too sure what "brown nosing" means (and I do not want to know) or why he uses "bitch" here. It sounds like swearing and abusing between the lines.

"You were lying again", "it's not my fault you don't understand enough science...". and so on. Polentarion Talk 21:15, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

• This concerns disputes regarding Myron Ebell who heads an organization that is "focused on dispelling the myths of global warming by exposing flawed economic, scientific, and risk analysis". Hob Gadling supports reliable sources and application of WP:FRINGE, and this ANI report looks like an attempt to remove an opponent for some minor eruptions. The diffs do not show problems that require any further action, although Hob Gadling should take a break from that area for a while. Johnuniq (talk) 00:11, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
  • But do keep in mind that some of Gadling's comments were genuinely uncivil and uncalled for. DarkKnight2149 00:17, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

• • My ANI and both civility warnings were based on incidents on the Skeptical movement talk page. Those "minor eruptions" have been repeated. The author denies and deletes repeated civility warnings with derogatory comments. I provided links to the Myron Ebell talk page after User talk:Darkknight2149 asked for more diffs. Hob Gadlings comparision of a nerdy Washington lobbyist with Trofim Lysenko is far from being appropriate. Nothing allows him to attack me like that as well. Neither tone nor wording is appropriate. Polentarion Talk 05:31, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Further difflink, to give you the flavor: [149]. Hob Gadling accuses me of having used namely, "diversionary tactics (Red herring)", "misrepresentations of what other people said (Strawman)§ and "dodging and weaseling". "All we got as defense of the move was, instead of reasoning: quotes from Olav Hammer, a historian of religion who specializes in esotericism and does not like skeptics." He (quote) "decided the damage done was not bad enough". That said, the tone is repeatedly condescend and abusive, towards me and as well my sources. Hob Gadling statements are factually wrong as well - I used a much larger variety of scholarly sources (David J. Hess, a sociologist in Nashville, Asbjørn Dyrendal, a NTNU prof and coworker at skepsis.no) and internal sources, like Daniel Loxton to support the move. Hob claims I used just Hammer and claims him to dislike skeptics. Neither true nor proven nor relevant, Hammer got a public prize in Sweden for his work on why people belief in pseudoscience. Hob seems to decide on his personal views what is to be liked or disliked here. Thats not how WP works. Polentarion Talk 05:56, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

I just examined your "give you the flavor" link and it shows no problem. Please do not waste people's time—either post some actual violations of CIVIL or move on. Johnuniq (talk) 06:24, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, if anything Hob Gadling was absolutely right in his comments about Polentarion, who does appear to use such tactics when one looks back at his editing. I'm going to close this now before an Australian hunting weapon comes into play. Black Kite (talk) 12:13, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

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• Nothing personal, but can we have a moratorium on circumlocutions for boomerangs? EEng 15:22, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

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there is someone doing "pranks" - his word

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at Richard Hunt (sculptor) right now. Could someone check it out? Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 22:35, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

@Carptrash: Just request page protection at WP:RFPP. And if the user continues vandalism at other articles, consider reporting all of the IPs at WP:SPI. DarkKnight2149 22:40, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, that is what I did. Since Richard Hunt (sculptor) is a living person it seemed that something needs to be done. Carptrash (talk) 22:47, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Because this is a BLP, I've left an only warning on their talk page. The IP is registered the City College of New York, if they vandalise again, a complaint could be made to the college. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard for them track down the party responsible. Blackmane (talk) 04:46, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

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Help with creation of page

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Hello,

I am trying to create a new page at https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Access_to_Affordable_Medicine and I received a message to say that this was blocked/blacklisted and that I should contact an administrator.

Many thanks Reece — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reece.urcher.001 (talk • contribs) 23:36, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

@Reece.urcher.001: Only reports regarding incidents, such as disruptive editing, go here. Try visiting the Teahouse or WP:AN for help. DarkKnight2149 00:15, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Hold on, the OP has a legitimate complaint. Yes it might have been better for them to go to WP:AN instead of here, but a question regarding a blacklist which limits the creation of an article to admins only is certainly a reasonable topic for an administrators' noticeboard, and not everyone knows that there are two of them. How about instead of blowing off the inquiring editor, one of our admins explain to him or her why the article title is blacklisted (which it is), and what the editor can do about it, if anything.

I would suspect that one thing they could do is create their prospective article in Draft space (by going to Draft:Access to affordable medicine), write the article there, and then approach an admin about the possibility of moving it into Main space. I don't know why the title was salted -- I assume for a good reason -- but if the new draft doesn't have those problems, then an admin can do the move, thereby creating the article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:03, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Tried that, and the title is salted in Draft space as well, but the same principle should hold by creating it in Reece.urcher.001's User space. Try User:Reece.urcher.001/Access to affordable medicine. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:06, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Nope, that's blacklisted as well - shows you how little I know about salting titles. Can an admin explain the situation to Reece.urcher.001? Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:08, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

@Reece.urcher.001: I've created a blank page for you to edit at User:Reece.urcher.001/Access to affordable medicine. Please start the article and get in touch again when it has enough content to require moving. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 08:36, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

@Zzuuzz: Thank you very much for your help. I will let you know once the article is ready. -- Reece.urcher.001 ^(talk) 15:16, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

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Juanda International Airport

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Hello. An anonymous user added some destinations in the article which I have proven to be untrue or fake. I reverted the article but yet the user added the destinations again. What concerned me is that he stated this:" Kt siapa Fake information anak pelacur kayak yg paling tau aja ente Wisanto ?". That sentence is something very vulgar in Indonesian and I am really offended. I need the administrators to help me in this issue. Please check the revision history of the article for the evidence:[150]. Cheers. Calvin Wisanto (talk) 04:41, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

The IP that Wisanto is referring to is 180.244.141.76 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). I just put the message into Google Translate, and it certainly appears to be vulgar indeed. The IP seems to be talking about (ahem) child prostitution. As someone who doesn't speak Indonesian, I can't determine if it's a full on personal attack, but the user certainly aims to offend. DarkKnight2149 04:53, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

And the user just tried to remove this report twice ([151]). DarkKnight2149 04:54, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Blocked. Acroterion (talk) 05:03, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

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User:Peeta Singh

Peeta Singh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

@Peeta Singh and Filpro: Instead of at a project, I'm bringing the discussion here as my previous attempts to reply to the user by referring to policy has been of no avail. It's the same topic and it has been over a month of disruptive editing, for which the user has received ample warnings on their talk page.

The user's edits seem to be advocating for a Sikh Punjabi nationality (POV pushing) on an array of Punjab and Sikhism-related articles based on blatant WP:OR and WP:FRINGE while actively trying to omit any mentions of India, effectively trying to depict the Punjab as their own idea of a Sikh country on Wikipedia. Amongst others : [152] [153] [154] [155] [156]

The user has been notified several times that they cannot use Wikipedia to expressly state that there is a "Sikh nation" or "Sikh nationality" (on their talk page and Talk:Sikh) but they continuously proceed to make such insertions, especially in categories and BLPs. They persist to intentionally omit any mentions of the word "India/Indian" (terminology that was used in the first sentence of such articles for years) while replacing it with "Punjabi" (after an admin stating that they may not use "Sikh"), claiming it to be an ethnicity but then creating categories that declare it a nationality.

Please see Khanda (Sikh symbol), Portal:Punjab and WP:PANJ where the user is blatantly modelling a Sikh Punjabi nation and declaring the religious symbol of Sikhism to be the "emblem of Panjab". Examples of the Punjab-related templates that they have used religious symbolism on : [157] [158]

The user as also removed mentions of India from Saraiki dialect, expressly declared Gurmukhi to be a "Sikh script" in the first sentence and is now attempting to differentiate the Punjabi language from other Indo-Aryan languages by using the same classification as Persian language and removing sourced content regarding Indian culture's relation to the Punjabi language - calling it a hoax/debatable point - something they are inserting in all of the Punjab-related articles.

Their refusal to follow WP:BRD is also frustrating as they resort to an edit war instead of substantiating their additions and removals on discussion pages at first.[159] [160]

--Salma Mahmoud (talk) 12:56, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Salma Mahmoud, from day one I have sincerely tried to improve Wikipedia but some people have had a problem. I don't know why, but users associated with a particular country want to hide some information. It maybe because it challenged this new sense of nationhood they're trying to create and promote on Wikipedia.

There the term "India/Indian" is relevant I have added it myself [161] but the term is not relevant in every Punjabi and Sikh related article. Regarding Salma's accusation of "effectively trying to depict the Punjab as their own idea of a Sikh country on Wikipedia", i'm aware of 4 Punjabs on Wikipedia: Punjab, India, Punjab, Pakistan, Punjab, Pakistan, Panjab, Afghanistan and the Punjab (region). The following Portal:Punjab is for the Punjab region, a non-political region of the Punjabi people or as some assert the Punjabi nation. Reliable sources suggest that the greater Punjab region is the historic homeland of the Sikhs. If the "greater Punjab region" is the historic homeland of the Sikhs, then how does their symbol the Khanda not represent their region? It's like saying the Lion Capital of Ashoka does not represent India because it was originally placed atop the Aśoka pillar at a "religious" Buddhist site in Sarnath.

In one video, Jugraj Singh from Basics of Sikhi, a educational Sikh YouTube channel [162] briefly mentioned that the Khanda is a recent invention created to represent the Punjabi and Sikh people. I was going to email him regarding the source of this fact but didn't when I came across the news that he's been diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. I'll add that source in the Khanda article when I come across it.

I don't just go removing everything with the term "India/India". I only remove content: if the souce is not reliable, doesn't mention the topic or the link doesn't work. For example, in the Saraiki article [163], I even wrote edit summaries with reasons for my edits. Reliable sources clearly suggest that the Gurmukhi alphabet is a Sikh script, then whats the problem? The article was like this with three references [164], now it's got a list of reliable references [165]. Have I done something wrong?

User:Salma Mahmoud, check the sources of the "sourced content regarding Indian culture's relation". [166] There is a reason why I've removed it. You accuse me of advocating and POV pushing (even though i'm adding information from RS) but what are you doing? [167]

Here listen to Gurpreet Ghuggi, this is the person your trying to label an Indian. [168], [169] These are people that have dedicated their lives for Punjab, Punjabi and the Punjabism.

I'm only trying to improve Wikipedia, and if Salma or anyone else would like to watch me do so, then be my guest. [170]

Peeta Singh (talk) 15:03, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Tendentious editing and WP:NOTHERE behavior by User:Cassandrathesceptic

Cassandrathesceptic (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • nuke contribs • logs • edit filter log • block user • block log) has been wasting other users' time with tendentious discussion on Scots language-related pages for years now, and I think it's time for a resolution. Cassandra takes the point of view that Scots is a variety of English, as opposed to a language. However, she never seems to be able to come up with sources that support this point of view. Nevertheless, she has been pushing it since at least this discussion in 2013, before she registered an account. After registration, it has been much the same. Generally her comments are without citation. When she does use sources, she either doesn't explain how they relate to the discussion or just changes them so they support her point. When challenged to explain how sources support her point of view, Cassandra directs users to a 7,000 word essay on her userpage (which I have not read and frankly have no interest in reading). I don't know why Cassandra is here, but it isn't to build an encyclopedia. I think a topic ban would be appropriate. agtx 15:13, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Can you point to anywhere that she's added outright problematic content, whether talk pages comments that are offensive or otherwise driving away people, or unsourced/badly sourced/inaccurate text into articles? Depending on what's being said, a talk page comment may not need sources, and if you find her writeups (of the sort that you linked) problematic, you can just ignore them. Nyttend (talk) 16:56, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Interesting. But I'm afraid the exact reverse of Mutt Lunker's claims is the sad truth. Mutt is a serious obstacle to improvement to the Wiki articles about the Scots language and has for some years been guilty of repeated sabotage of my suggested improvements. I have spent a lot of time investigating this subject and have indeed posted those findings on my own Wikipage - and they are very well referenced. The problem is that M Lunker will not allow any unwelcome facts to appear on his beloved Scots language pages. I am staggered to read M Lunker's confession that he has not even bothered to read the evidence I have collected - but not too surprised. But if you would care to cast an eye over the material I've put together I'm confident that you or anyone else will readily accept that it is well researched and highly relevent. If you then flip over to my discussion page you will also be able to form a view about M Lunker's peculiar style. Thanks Cassandra Cassandrathesceptic (talk) 20:12, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

P.S. I should explain that I mention Mutt Lunker here rather than user AGTX since I'm assuming that this note has either been actively promoted by him by him or is an alternative identity. Cassandrathesceptic (talk) 20:33, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

They're definitely not the same user, I can tell you that much. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:39, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Cassandrathesceptic kinda foolish to accuse those two users of being the same person with no evidence whatsoever.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 00:19, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Admin attention needed at Sciences Po / Sciences Po talk

Hi there. After a violent controversy on the Sciences Po talk page and an edit war, the Sciences Po article has been fully protected. Several editors (including myself) have tried to step-in to restore a positive work dynamics, but it now becomes clear that user Launebee has a personal agenda. After 2 months (!) and a lot of energy spent trying to build consensus, we arrive at a stage in which we really need admin attention. Anybody to help? Thanks! SalimJah (talk) 15:20, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

I have asked two admins to look into this after seeing that the user in question can be reasonably assumed to be the same user who was blocked on French wikipedia for similar agenda pushing. It is quite clearly impossible to make even the simplest of improvements on that page (like adding a reflist:30em to the references section, which was not done despite a protected edit request). Perhaps Launebee is writing a thesis on media studies and is actively experimenting? I don't know exactly what the motivation is, but the result is clearly disruption. (I have been marginally "involved" in the last few days because of 2 edits: 1) responding to an RfC and 2) testing the waters with a protected edit request.) SashiRolls (talk) 21:19, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Correct and substantiated information was reverted without review.

Dear admins, please check the recent revisions of Ilias Psinakis. On my side I had provided only confirmed sources and no personal point of view. Just facts. Please, review the issue in terms of WP:COMPETENCE. Another editor, having no idea about subject of the article being threatening me all the time, even when I totally respect previous version and just make corrections to clarify the facts and add links. LanaSimba (talk) 16:43, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Without getting into your content dispute, I'd like to point out that 1) You need to notify people when you take them to ANI. You did not do this, as far as I can tell. 2) The editor you reverted is a long-term, experienced editor, so citing WP:COMPETENCE probably isn't the right thing. I'm not saying that person is innocent, I'm saying you're going to need to cite something else (harrassment? Point of view pushing? Something else?) and probably directly links to direct instances of breaking policy. You're not going to get anywhere with this as your starting off point. Sergecross73 msg me 16:50, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

[ec] The other editor was Winkelvi, by the way. I looked over the changes and have the impression that some changes were good and some not. I don't understand why he removed the birthdate from the intro (it's sourced and present elsewhere in the article, after all), but a bunch of what he removed was unhelpful. Looks like a simple content dispute that doesn't need admin intervention. Nyttend (talk) 16:52, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

A review of the complaining user's edits will show several net negatives: repeated edit warring, tendentious editing, POV pushing, WP:SPA, WP:OWN, WP:NOTHERE, WP:COMPETENCE, likely WP:COI and possible personal involvement with the article subject. A look at the article talk page and the user's talk page shows they have been asked if they are involved on a personal level with the article subject, they declined to answer. Brought to AN3 more than once for the obvious. They even opened an AN on me last month and were told, essentially, that they needed to back off from editing the article as well as editing disruptively. They've been warned by admins more than once. WP:BOOMERANG has also been suggested with this individual everytime they've come to a noticeboard because of their refusal to get it in combination with their tendency toward WP:IDHT. The article they are stuck on has been edited and re-edited numerous times by several editors over several months to remove the poorly sourced or unsourced content, fluff, peacocking, undue weight and resume-like additions they insist on adding over and over again. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:13, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Nyttend, Sergecross73 I just say that proper sourced information was deleted (as you mentioned about the date of birth) and proper sourced correction of the place of birth was reverted. What kind of policy is it? When an article after all contains wrong data... ? LanaSimba (talk) 18:25, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't fully understand what you're asking, but to recap the main ideas here:

1. WP:COMPENTENCE is the wrong thing to cite here. Its a rationale where you're basically saying someone is incapable of understanding or learning the very basics on how to edit Wikipedia. As such, it wouldn't make sense to accuse this an editor who has edited for years in multiple content areas. It's the type of things you'd say about a ten year old child who doesn't understand how to write in paragraph form yet, for example.
2. This sounds like you both just have a disagreement in whether or not content or sources are appropriate for an article. That's what we call a "content dispute". Content disputes don't belong here at ANI. When you have a disagreement over content, you start a discussion on the article talk page about solving the disagreement, and if you're still in a deadlock, you ask Wikiprojects for help, or start up a Request for Comment. In short, you need to try to "work out a compromise", not "report them for disagreeing with you". Sergecross73 msg me 19:24, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Sergecross73 Thank you for your attention. I supposed that understanding of basics of Wiki editing includes first of all knowledge and understanding of subject of the article someone is editing. Or at least possibility to read information, provided in sources. Well You are right, this is the "content dispute" in the end. But how to dispute content when any revision I made is being reverted without reading? I wrote the article from the very beginning providing all sources, never wrote a single fact from my own point of view and just feel responsible for correctness of data. May the article be summarized, but not contain wrong data, absent in any sources. And why should be deleted sourced data about the personality parents if it is a Biography? Why shouldn't be present sourced information on current projects? LanaSimba (talk) 20:00, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

1. Start up a discussion on the article talk page, and make sure Winkelvi is aware of it. (He looks active there, so he'll probably see it automatically.)
2. Make a list of every idea you wanted to add/change from that edit, and then discuss them each one, one by one. Mention what the old version was, your proposed new version, and the source that supports it.
3. Wait for a response from Winkelvi or any other participants for each idea, and give further input as needed.
4. If there is a consensus in your favor, or a compromise most agree with, make the change.
5. If there is not a consensus in your favor, you cannot make your change until if/when there is a consensus of people supporting your change. That's when you consider forming a neutral question about it at a WikiProject or a Request for Comment.
6. If there is a consensus supporting your change at this new discussion, make the change. If not, then you've probably run out of options, and should drop it for now.
7. Repeat for every individual idea there is disagreement over. Sergecross73 msg me 20:33, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Sergecross73 Thanks! I did as you wrote here. Except for that I have no desire to talk to Winklvi or argue on anything due to their dictatorial manner. Let other people argue with this person. I referred to other editors, who previously commented on the article and did contributions. I specified all data and sources. I may give more sources if needed. If any other editors may come and attentively read the versions, and give their ideas, it would be great. LanaSimba (talk) 22:16, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Users Dkendel and Ilham muhammad

Dkendel (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Ilham muhammad (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I posted to the edit warring noticeboard about this User Dkendel about 24 hours ago but no action has been taken yet. In the meantime their behavior and has escalated/had other concerns arise. So I am bringing it here.

First of all, Dkendel has been edit warring at List of Mayday episodes. He has reverted multiple times

1. 1 https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=List_of_Mayday_episodes&diff=752503032&oldid=752447155
2. 2 https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=List_of_Mayday_episodes&diff=752435497&oldid=752319185
3. 3 https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=List_of_Mayday_episodes&diff=752238584&oldid=752162761
4. 4 https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=List_of_Mayday_episodes&diff=752265688&oldid=752263872 Which was a modified version of a post that had been reverted here[171]

He has done further reverts today. This is just one example.[172]

Note- Dkendel reverted not just me, but at least three other editors. This User's only other edits, all to [[ Norwegian Long Haul]], have been reverted. Dkendel edit warred there also.

That covers the edit warring.

Today, after I updated my post to the edit warring noticeboard[173], he reverted it.[174] That makes it a case of WP:DISRUPT.

Another issue raised here[175], is that this User might be a sock of another account User Ilham muhammad. IM's last edit[176] was to List of Mayday episodes and was very similar in content to those done by Dkendel that I list up above.

The issue with Dkendel is more than edit warring. Socking may be taking place plus a violation of WP:DISRUPT, so I bring it here to ANI....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 17:52, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

OWN, editing while logged out, edit warring, and more

Could anyone take a look at Wim Naudé (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)? There's quite a lot of controversy and edit warring that is occurring. There 2 IPs in the mix are obviously either meatpuppets or the users editing while logged out. Personally, the material could be viewed as contentious, however there are references regarding it. How reliable the sources really are are debatable. Dat Guy^Talk_Contribs 18:55, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not an economist nor do I play one on TV, but other than numerous tense errors throughout the article, I don't see the problem. So two things: First, if your main concern is reliability of sources, might this be better placed at WP:RSN, and second, if your complaint is about editor behavior, you're going to need to provide specific diffs and editor names (and notify said editors) so your complaint can be dealt with. John from Idegon (talk) 22:22, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Legal threats by Dollyparton7

Legal threats submitted by Dollyparton7 (talk · contribs), same threat at multiple pages:

See:

• [177] - at User talk:BOTFIGHTER
• [178] - at Talk:The World Tomorrow (radio and television)

The threat mentions "If Wikipedia does not honor this simple request to insert the show title card photo to the article within 72 hours, as the sole copyright and trademark claimant and owner, I will be submitting a demand and takedown injunction to Wikipedia Legal for the article to be completely redacted under our United States Legal rights and governing the Digital Millennium Copyright Act".

See also the user's talk page at User talk:Dollyparton7#December 2016.

--- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:14, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

• Why is the CEO of a "church" using a pseudonym of a country music singer? —Farix (t | c) 22:33, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

I was just about to ask that myself. I'm considering issuing a {{uw-ublock-famous}}, but I'm concerned it may be counterproductive in this situation. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 22:38, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

The user's previous account was blocked. This one's apparently named after his dog. clpo13_(talk) 22:52, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

• Since God talks to these people you'd think they could get Him to tell them how to upload and license an image properly. Honestly, I'm sick and tired of this bunch thinking the world cares about their stupid title card. How many years has this been going on, anyway? EEng 22:41, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

There's no question that the latest posts are legal threats: [179] [180] Meters (talk) 22:48, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Considering [181] I have sent an email to WMF legal to clarify whether they are threatening legal action or merely a DMCA takedown notice (which wouldn't require a NLT block). Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 22:56, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Well I've blocked indef while this is all going on. "Do what I want or there will be legal action" is exactly what the legal threat policy was meant to prevent, whether or not it's an actual lawsuit. All of this over a stupid image - sheesh. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:01, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Fair enough. I was mostly taking from Wikipedia:No legal threats#Copyright (though calling their requests polite is a bit of a stretch), but this works too. Still would be nice for legal to chime in. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 23:06, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm honestly not sure what they think their complaint is, since the DMCA aspect seems backwards. They're mad at us for not including a copyrighted image. I suspect the DMCA request would be a demand to take down the entire article if they don't get their way, but I'm just speculating. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:07, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Just your usual legalistic word salad by people demanding their "United States Legal rights" and thinking they're issuing "injunctions". You have to wonder anyway about a televangelist who names his dog after a singer known for her gigantic breasts. EEng 23:11, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

EEng, they are called "breasts" and I'd appreciate a little bit of decorum here--decorum of the non-sexist kind, since she is actually quite well known as a decent singer, a business woman, a philanthropist in her community, and a contributor to a reading program in Tennessee that distributes free books to every single newborn child. Seriously. Drmies (talk) 00:43, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Just for completeness, adding links here to related active discussions at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Garnerted and Wikipedia:Files for upload#The World Tomorrow (radio and television).jpg. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 23:57, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

User:R3tr0 - NOTHERE

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Can another admin please take a look at User:R3tr0 and his edits? I'm thinking this is a pretty clear case of WP:NOTHERE but since I am involved in the pages at issue I thought it best to bring it here.

• 22:17, May 17, 2011 in response to speedy deletion of a page (deleted 7 years ago!), user deletes warning tag and incoherently rants: "fascist pigs that are controlled and on their knees, decided that revealing the truth about a now fictitiously estimated billion dollar company couldn't be provided here - so they have 'deleted with so much haste' that 4 mods wanted to shove their nose so far up whales ass they made a new logo for it."
• 11:48, December 2, 2016 - disruptive tag bombing
• 17:44, December 2, 2016 - incoherent, all-caps edit summary, edit summary "CHANGE ABSOLUTE INFORMATION WARFARE"
• 18:30, December 2, 2016 - incoherent, all-caps ranting on talk page
• 18:37, December 2, 2016 - continued tag-bombing, disregarding talk-page discussion; " history will see not all were brainwashed peons"

--Neutrality^talk 00:30, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

• Done. I agree, unfortunately. Drmies (talk) 00:40, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

• Thanks. Neutrality^talk 00:43, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.