User talk:EEng

Wikipedia Must Be The Saddest Place on Earth

I have had EEng's talk and userpage on my Watchlist for two months because they are the most fun places on Wikipedia.

—Softlavender[1]

Beware! This user's talk page is patrolled by talk page stalkers.

Typical stalkers

It has been 3607 days since a userbox was last urgently removed from this page based on a three-hour "consensus" at ANI.

The ANI pileon juggernaut rolls on, heedless

When users do something that administrators don't like, but when the users not only disagree but have the temerity to object to the sanctions levied against them by administrators, is this an unacceptable dissent against the powers-that-be that must, always, be quashed by any means necessary?

I'm probably hyperbolizing here, but I think this is how the issue appears to the EEng's of the world. And some, at least, of the EEng's of the world are here to help build the encyclopedia. We say "The free encyclopedia that anyone can edit", not "The benevolent dictatorship encyclopedia that docile and compliant rule-followers can edit as long as they remember their place and are always properly respectful towards ADMINISTRATORS." So, please, if that's not the message you want to send, just let these userboxes go. And if you want to boot a user off the project for not being here to help build the encyclopedia, please do it for a more substantive reason than that the user refuses to say "Uncle" when confronted by admins.

—Steve Summit (talk) 19:46, 6 February 2015 (UTC) ^[2]

Imposing a block

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

And finally, to each admin who says, "Well, I wouldn't have blocked, but I don't feel like overturning it": what you're condoning is a situation in which every editor is at the mercy of the least restrained, most trigger-happy admin who happens to stumble into any given situation. Don't you see how corrosive that is? It's like all these recent US police shootings: no matter how blatantly revolting an officer's actions were, the monolithic reply is "It was by the book. Case closed." This [admin] was way out of line from the beginning in deleting multiple editors' posts (as someone suggested, hatting would have made complete sense, and troubled me not at all) and when called on it above, he gives a middle-finger-raised LOL. No wonder so many see haughty arrogance in much of the admin corps around here.

—EEng 05:38, 16 January 2015 (UTC) ^[3]

And let me be clear: I have no problem with 97% of admins, who do noble work in return for (generally) either no recognition or shitloads of grief, only occasionally punctuated by thanks. But the other 3%‍—‌whoa, boy, watch out!

—EEng 20:02, 6 February 2015 (UTC) ^[4]

Reversion of my edit on Gage

I've always been curious about people who revert things rather than simply adding a tag. Reversion is for cases where one fancies themselves an expert on the subject, and is pretty sure the addition is wrong or unsourcable. But this is not such a case. But the tamping iron burial is a very commonly known bit of data about Gage, and obviously your bookshelf lacks John Fleishman's book on Phineas Gage where the burial of the rod with Gage, and recovery of them both by Dr. J.D.B Stillman is mentioned on page 59 (Shattuck takes them both east that December, to Harlow). You can actually find the text if you google "Phineas Gage burial". No, I didn't add the ref. I'll leave it for you do to, as penance for doing things wrong on Wikipedia. Don't revert other people's stuff unless you're sure you know what you're doing. SBHarris 22:07, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

This book doesnt appear in Worldcat, or either of the two university libraries I can quickly check directly, however it is on Amazon[5] and reading lists[6]. I've found the book in Google books as sbharris mentions, and the text of p 59 reads:

With her son-in-law and the major of San Francisco, who happens to be a physician, standing by as witnesses, Phineas's coffin is unrecovered and carried to a shed. There, Dr. J. D. B. Stillman, a local surgeon, removes the skull. The huge fracture on the forehead is unmistakable. Dr. Stillman removes something else from the coffin-the tamping iron that Phineas carried everywhere, even to his grave.

John Vandenberg ^(chat) 00:28, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Though I regret that you were offended, I believe that my action in reverting your edit was fully justified. If you will be so kind as to wait a few days, I will follow up with a full explanation. In the meantime, unless you object, I think it would be best to if I transfer this discussion the article's talk page. EEng (talk) 16:06, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

No, go ahead and transfer what you like. SBHarris 20:59, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I've summarised this discussion at Talk:Phineas_Gage#Burial_of_the_rod. --John Vandenberg ^(chat) 11:22, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Gentlemen, I've posted a complete followup at Talk:Phineas_Gage#Burial_of_the_rod. (Jayvb, thanks for transferring and summarizing the discussion.) EEng (talk) 23:57, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I've quickly reviewed your post, and agree we shouldnt reproduce this as if it was fact if the historical record and accounts closer to the event did not mention it. I'll keep watching. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 00:54, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Jayvb, thanks again for your interest. I would like to bow out of this discussion, and wonder if you might intercede to calm things down should the other party insist on continuing despite there being no new evidence on the table. (And that might be best done, should it be needed, on the article's talk page for all to see.) Hey, and thanks for cleaning up the references.EEng (talk) 03:01, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

The discussion will calm down as it focuses on what sources are available, and what they say. Sbharris has mentioned some that will be worth finding and checking. If it is often mentioned in reliable sources that the rod was buried with the body, we should mention this in the article while also describing the level of disputation of this fact. Doing this will help readers know that we havent simply omitted it - i.e. we know, and we warn readers to not state it as fact without checking the cited sources. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 05:13, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Discussion continued at Talk:Phineas_Gage#Burial of the rod.

Lowell House

• Per your question on your edit summary, I guess I will stop you. Please stop vandalizing the Lowell House article. Alanraywiki (talk) 03:24, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Gracious! Don't get a knot in your knickers! The question was rhetorical and did not require a reply. l admit that mischieviousness got the best of me, but in all modesty, even including my overwrought condemnation of these unhappy spreaders of ill tidings the article was immeasurable improved for the concurrent shrinkage of verbosity, steadying of tenses, crookeds made straight, and rough places plain.

For those who may be wondering, Mr. Alanraywiki was giving me a well-deserved scolding for my insertion of the following text into the article on Harvard's Lowell House:

“ At Lowell, the bells were usually rung on Sundays from 1:00 to 1:15 pm by a group of Lowell residents known as the Klappermeisters. But some Klappermeisters were drunk with power, and putting heedless self-indulgence ahead of the welfare of their sleep-starved fellow scholars, would initiate their infernal clanging much, much earlier than the officially appointed hour on that sanctified day of rest; these wicked souls were hated and reviled by each and every creature unfortunate enough to suffer within the radius of action of these sonic torture machines, and thereafter had trouble getting help with their chemistry homework, even unto the twelfth generation. ”

Vandalizing was not really the right word. It was more like creative writing run amok. Let's try to keep Wikipedia more serious, okay? Thanks, Alanraywiki (talk) 01:30, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Newly discovered Daguerreotype

EEng, nice job cleaning up my initial, humble effort at reporting the newly discovered Daguerreotype. The LA Times has also reported the discovery, available on their website. I have a copy of the journal article if you'd like to see it. The discovery caused quite a stir on 16 July 2009. The discoverer's website was overwhelmed and they quickly upgraded to a better server. Their experience is reported on their Flickr page.Danaxtell (talk) 04:14, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I have regretfully reported your edit warring

See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:EEng_reported_by_User:Gavia_immer_.28Result:_.29. I do not like to have done this, because you have undoubtedly improved the Phineas Gage article, but I don't believe this can be resolved until you acknowledge that no one else sees a copyright issue with this image. Please add comments you wish at the link I've provided. — Gavia immer (talk) 06:06, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Please can we keep the image off the article, and have a discussion about this? I would hate to loose EEng because he was blocked for preventing what he believed to be a copyright violation. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 07:04, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Final warning: if this is a copyvio, I'm sure other people will remove it. EEng doesn't need to break WP:3RR for wiki's sake. Anything else that looks like a 3RR vio will result in a block William M. Connolley (talk) 18:03, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Re [7]. Nonetheless, the warning stands. You're not a one-man crusade against copyvio William M. Connolley (talk) 18:23, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Re [8]. This isn't a court. Don't expect a formal process. WP:BURO William M. Connolley (talk) 09:17, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Lobotomy

Hi,

I've been expanding the lobotomy entry a little bit and, as it's really the first wikipedia entry that I've done and I see that you've done some editing of the page previously, I was wondering if you could perhaps have look over the page to see if the changes that I've introduced so far are ok? Thanks Freekra (talk) 20:51, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I've added some commentary on Talk which I hope you'll consider constructive. I've got some deadlines over the next 4 weeks so I won't be able to do much more than cormment for now, however. But keep at it, please. EEng (talk) 05:18, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks EEng. Very useful. Freekra (talk) 12:09, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Chebyshev's inequality

Hi! I have restored some of the material you removed from Chebyshev's inequality. I think it is relevant and important, as I explained in the edit summary. If you think otherwise, let's discuss it on the talk page. BTW, I think it would create a more productive atmosphere if you avoided words like "bizarre" and "unilluminating" when referring to other people's contributions. Best wishes, --Zvika (talk) 06:38, 30 December 2009 (UTC) I was rude, and I apologize. But the idea that there's "nothing tighter" than the C. bound is a tricky one, and the exposition of that example, as it stands, indeed has serious problems. The spirit will probably move me in a week or two to see what I can do. EEng (talk) 01:39, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, saying that a bound is tight is a rigorous mathematical statement. It means that there exists situations in which the bound is obtained with equality. The practical implication is that the bound cannot be improved unless further assumptions are introduced. This seems to me more or less what is said in the article. --Zvika (talk) 07:17, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

That the article makes a "rigorous mathematical statement" ... "more or less" pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. Again I apologize for my rudeness, and someday (soon?) I'll make a change and I hope you'll see what I mean. EEng (talk) 03:30, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Phineas Gage

Thanks for the invitation. I'll try to take a look at it soon. Do you intend to try a GAC?--Garrondo (talk) 14:52, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't know much about all this rating stuff, but if you think that makes sense why not? As you know Gage has been in the news a lot in the last six months and the article gets a lot of traffic. EEng (talk) 16:08, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Well; it is more complicated than that. If you post it at WP:GAC a reviewer would make comments and say if it fullfills GA criteria or not. It will probably be a better idea after some editors review it.--Garrondo (talk) 16:16, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

That's why I was asking you first, I guess! EEng (talk) 17:40, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the article. It is great to have a free article from McMillan summarizing his point of view, instead of having to buy his book. I'll try to read it if I have time (as you say time is what always lacks :-) ). Nevertheless it still seems more of the same. We already know what McMillan thinks, but the problem is that from my point of view it is probably far from consensus among experts. Bests.--Garrondo (talk) 07:01, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Abraham Zapruder

Hi. Thanks for your work there. I think 'unfortunately' is a little POV there; would you mind elaborating your reasons at the talk page please? --John (talk) 03:54, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Discussion continued at Talk:Abraham Zapruder.

Lee Harvey Oswald

I'm in awe of your copy editing, it's a real object lesson in how to take sentences that seem ok, but then transform them into something much more fluid and logical. Even though you make it seem easy, I'm sure it takes a lot of time. I think it's an amazing skill and I'm studying your changes closely to try and learn as much from them as I can. Thank you. Alistair Stevenson (talk) 23:36, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Aw, shucks! (blush) The article was (fairly) well organized, and competent at the sentence level, but too much fat -- unimportant details like Ruth Paine drove Marnina from city X to Y, then later drove her from A to B -- OK, we know Ruth was a family friend and friends do such things -- the interested reader could find out details from the refs. Amazing how much tighter things get when you cut even small amounts of stuff like that, which then allows even whole paragraphs to collapse into a single (albeit somewhat more complex) sentence. Again, just for the record for anyone else listening, I have no interest in getting involved in controversy over LHO and JFK -- my intent is strictly to copyedit the article as it stands, neither adding nor omitting anything substantive. Having received no accusatory condemnations from impassioned assassination theorists of whatever stripe, I guess I've succeeded in doing that so far. Thanks for taking the time to compliment. EEng (talk) 12:38, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Gentry McCreary Sr

Thank you for taking the time to explain to me what needs to be done I have given up and asked someone else to pick up where I left off when it comes to placing Mr. McCreary into history for all of his accomplishment.... Your time was very much appreciated —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dapub12 (talk • contribs) 08:38, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for nothing

Well I asked you for some advice, but hey, you couldn't be bothered to do that. Just deleted the request. I'm guessing this is what Wikipedia is like - unhelpful people who delight in being obstructive. You know, I think there are better places to be on the web. Can't really trust anything on here now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WyrmUK (talk • contribs) 20:14, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

You are mistaken. I transferred your query to the article's talk page, where everyone interested could see it and participate, and answered it there. The basic thrust, however, was that you seem to misunderstand the concept of notability as it's used on Wikipedia. Basically, no matter how competent a firm is and valued by its customers, it there are no significant, independent, third-party sources that have said anything about it, there's no way there can be an article on it, even if it's indeed notable.

Unfortunately your query, and my answer, are invisible now because they evaporated along with the article when the article was deleted. Once an article goes into the deletion-debate process, you have to keep tabs on what's going on or when you come back it may be gone. Where an article is of significant length and perhaps can be saved through extensive rewrite, you can write to an admin (I forget just how) and ask for the old raw text back so you can work on it privately to add notability evidence and so on, then restore the article. But I don't think that makes sense in this case.

I'm sorry your early experience here wasn't pleasant. But when people talk about this or that policy, such as for notability, you have to take the time to read the applicable policy so you can participate effectively in the discussion. (And in the present case, you have to check back soon enough that the debate isn't over, and the article deleted, by the next time you show up.) Just saying over and over that a company must be notable because otherwise a customer wouldn't associate itself with that company isn't going to work. EEng (talk) 21:58, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

AfD participation

While Milowent's remark about the baby Jesus in your heart is at best rather rude, and his argument about poorly-sourced articles being kept is more OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, I think he's right about one thing. It has been my experience as well that responding prolifically to others in an AfD proves to be usually if not always unproductive. If you've found otherwise, you've been lucky! Шизомби (Sz) (talk) 20:59, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

No, I haven't found otherwise -- I just haven't been involved in AfDs until recently, and I think I'll go back soon to staying uninvolved. There's a peculiar combination of forces at work in AfD that's simultaneously laughable and unpleasant. Thanks for the advice. EEng (talk) 14:50, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Re: Broken Springs

Hi, EEng. Just a note to say that while I understand your frustration and in part share it, it's still important to keep it in check. It's not that I'm Spock, it's just that I've found that on those occasions when I've given free rein to my irritation, it has has always proved counterproductive.

The other thing thing to consider is that article-rescuers like MichaelQSchmidt do very valuable work. I don't pretend to understand them, but as they are generally friendly, I prefer to look on them as an exotic tribe whose customs I can't comprehend. Going into contortions to make what look to people like you and me like utterly implausible arguments in favour of keeping forgettable articles is simply the flipside of their dedication, one of the by-products of their outlook. But the yeoman's work they do in trying to save these articles is sometimes astonishing, frequently quixotic, but always deserving of respect. They tend to take an AfD as a personal challenge, and very frequently turn out pretty good articles in response to that challenge. On other occasions they do an enormous amount of work only to see the article deleted anyway. And then they do it again.

In my opinion, in this case, it wouldn't matter how much the article is improved, because the problem isn't the quality of the article (which isn't a reason for deletion anyway): the subject doesn't meet WP:GNG. It's also ARTSPAM. But, barring some sudden change, the AfD is going to end up in a no consensus anyway -- so there's no point in getting your knickers in a twist. Cheers! -- Rrburke (talk) 16:46, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

As you'll see above at User_talk:EEng#AfD_Participation I've already sworn off AfDs; I'll now redouble my determination. But now that you're here, could you take a look at [9] and see if you can help somehow? EEng (talk) 06:25, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Samuel Eliot Morison

Hi, I have done a translation from Spanish to English of the reference for the above article. I am unable, through inexperience, to place it within the article references but I have left it to be copied and pasted on the 'request for translation' page. Best. Richard Avery (talk) 17:10, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Much appreciated. This is exactly the kind of collaboration and pooling of talents that makes Wikipedia such a wonderful experiment. EEng (talk) 15:46, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Will do (Flow Notation System for rap)

I figured it's widely known enough to be on wikipedia (The flow notation system), but if it seems to be that private, I'll go ahead and put it on wikibooks under music theory like you said. Thanks for the suggestion. edit: it appears wikibooks isn't public like wikipedia? I've never heard of it before, sorry. Arightwizard (talk) 20:57, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Most things that arrive at deletion debates really don't belong on Wikipedia, but this is something that I think does belong here, just not yet. To be on WP it has to have been written up in a "reliable source", among other things, and that just hasn't happened yet that I can see.

Wikibooks is like Wikipedia in that "anyone can edit." But I don't know whether they will take it either -- don't know what their rules are. Their mission is to develop teaching materials and "how-to" stuff, and since FNS seems to be a tool for helping write rap lyrics, it seems like something that might fit there -- again, unless it's too new. I just spent a few minutes over there and I have to say I found it confusing. Why don't you post a query at [10] -- describe a bit about the FNS, provide links to the blogs and so on with details, and ask for help finding if/how it can be used on Wikibooks. I don't think Wikibooks has nearly as many people involved as on Wikipedia, so you may need to be very patient. And if the answer is that FNS is too new to be included, try not to be too disappointed.

Also, I don't know if your account here on WP will also work on Wikibooks -- if not, just add your question by editing as an IP editor for now. There's a way to make your WP account work all over the various Wiki projects but I don't know how it works. Good luck.

EEng (talk) 22:47, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

P.S. One other thing: be careful about copyright. I doubt the system itself (the particular uses of X O and so on) is copyrighted, but be very careful that your description of the system is in your own words. Once you get a response to your original question, ask that before you start actually contributing over there. Also, you better save a copy of the WP article on your own computer now, before it's deleted, so you can use it as a starting point as you write something for Wikibooks. And finally, if you have come to agree that the WP article needs to be deleted, so say at the AfD debate to save everyone trouble.

Strange rant

FIRST : do not offend me if you don't want to be banned . My country villa is NOT A STUPID HOTEL but a holiday rental in Garfagnana. THIRD: I'm starting to build in the site lots of informations about places to visit and things to do.... It's a big effort because I'm writing in 3 languages ... There's nothing similar for Garfagnana territory ...So why couldn't I insert links not to my holiday rental but to the info pages ??? It's not SPAM ..... There's quite nothing about Castelnuovo Garfagnana ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aleguasp (talk • contribs) 20:15, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

You don't live in Garfagnana . How do you pretend to know about that area more than a person who lives there ? Don't you think to be a bit arrogant ? I found many links on wikipedia pages that are a mix of educational and commercial ....Nobody have never erased those pages . Is wikipedia yours , maybe ?

Note to the curious: I've been away for about six months and was welcomed back by the above. I did figure out what this Aleguasp person is frothing about, though it has nothing to do with me. [11] EEng (talk) 23:33, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Being Tallest is Unhealthy

There are FACTS, and then there are opinions. Here are some FACTS:

• http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/List_of_tallest_people
• http://www.oneinchpunch.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/worlds-tallest-man.jpg
• http://www.elekta.com/healthcare_international_press_release_20071092.php

Fact: the tallest persons in medical history all died at an age below the median life expectancy for their cohort age group.

Now, if you choose to be uninformed, that's one thing. But to make fun of others who are right, and then to convince others that they are right when they are in fact wrong, is to spread misinformation. I do realize the goal of Wikipedia is not "truth" but "verifiability." However, it should be clear that living to 8 feet tall is not something that has generally been desirable.

• http://www.oneinchpunch.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/worlds-tallest-man.jpg

Unless, of course, you think the attention is worth the drawbacks. It should also be clear that there is a distinction between being "tall" and being the "tallest." No one says being 6 foot 2 inches is bad. So, enough with the jokes and take some time to respect other people's viewpoints. You may learn something. Ryoung122 22:56, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Ryoung122:

• I've removed some of the excess line breaks from your message (above, apparently responding to [12]).
• I didn't say that "being tallest" is healthy (or perhaps you mean healthful). Someone said, "In fact, since it's unhealthy, researchers try to limit height," to which I responded by inquiring, "Just where and by whom -- and on whom -- are these creeepy-sounding research efforts, which 'try to limit height,' being carried out?"
• Despite what appears to be an attempt to evade your topic ban by not mentioning longevity explicitly, it seems to me you are likely in violation of your topic ban and I've brought that to the attention [13] of someone who's dealt with you before.
• Kudos for hitting the trifecta of Wikipedia egotism: an indefinite topic ban [14], a deleted vanity bio [15], even -- and this is a first in my experience -- a deleted vanity category [16].
• I've addressed the above to you only as a mattter of form -- in fact it's primarily for the benefit of third parties. Based on a review of your behavior over the years, I'm saying in advance that I will likely not respond to anything further you address to me.

EEng (talk) 06:41, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Are you here on Wikipedia to make positive contributions, or make ethnic jokes, as you did this week? And none of what you mention above is a fair or on-topic rebuttal or what I said about the category of "tallest" people, which, by the way, doesn't really fit under the category that I'm not supposed to be contributing to. As for me, it's not a trifecta of egotism: no, the problem is Wikipedia is edited by persons who are not knowledgeable about the subjects they edit. Far from being a "vanity" article, my own article probably should exist, based on outside sources. It's only because Wikipedia caters to the lowest common denominator ("anyone can edit") that it does not, since I have clearly been established as notable. Check out Who's Who in America 2012. I won't see your name in there, but you can find me.

I'm surprised you mentioned your response was for the benefit of others...clearly, it's not. It's for the benefit of YOU. You turned what should have been a discussion about facts into a "me against you" personal issue. That's called a red herring strategy: change the subject instead of admitting you are wrong and made a mistake. As many on Wikipedia allow their own egos to get in the way of the purpose of collaborative, objective, encyclopedic editing, so instead of addressing the FACT that you were doubly wrong in making fun of others for something they said that turned out to be correct (i.e., wrong to make fun and wrong to not research the issue before adding your opinion). Have a nice day.

Ryoung122 14:33, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

FYI, see the last thread on my talkpage. I'll be on an iPhone for several hours, I'll respond when I get a full keyboard. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 15:50, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Blade: You're talking about this? Honestly, I don't think any response to him is needed or even desirable. If you want to engage him don't let me stop you, but don't think you need to do it to defend me. His behavior (past and present) speaks for itself. EEng (talk) 19:24, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Just wanted you to be aware it was going on, as your name was mentioned. Merely a courtesy I extend to people if their names come up on my talkpage. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:52, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

And I do appreciate it. We CYBERBULLIES have to stick together, after all, if we're to maintain our stranglehold on those who struggle to bring light and truth to Wikepedia. By the way, a paper you may enjoy: [17]. EEng (talk) 22:55, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

You have officially made my day now. Thanks!!!! The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 23:15, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Enjoy it while you can, as we will no doubt pay many times over for it. EEng (talk) 01:11, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

"Far from being a 'vanity' article, my own article probably should exist, based on outside sources. It's only because Wikipedia caters to the lowest common denominator ('anyone can edit') that it does not, since I have clearly been established as notable. Check out Who's Who in America 2012. I won't see your name in there, but you can find me." Just have to say since I accidently discovered this thread since it was right above the one I started on this talk page, I have never, EVER, encountered WikiEgo such as this. If this person did have an article, I would ensure this paragraph was included. ~Pesco^{So say•we all} 18:32, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Edits to Wikipedia:India_Education_Program/Analysis/WMF_interviews

Hi EEng, please refrain from adding unhelpful and erroneous edits like this to pages in which we are trying to engage in a productive and thoughtful analysis of what went wrong in our pilot program. I appreciate the humor in your addition, but this is a very serious subject, and I ask that you treat it with the respect it deserves in the future. Thanks. -- LiAnna Davis (WMF) (talk) 16:37, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Humor doesn't imply disrespect, nor does it detract in any way from productive and thoughtful analysis -- it might even add to it. At least I read the thing [18]. Of course, I would never dream of doing what I did on an article page (as opposed to a project page) but I'd be lying if I said I won't do it again in a similar situation. I see in other discussion (e.g. point 1 of [19]) concerns over WMF staff's grasp of how things are really done on WP, and I think this may be an example. EEng (talk) 02:04, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Malcolm X

Please see the following as a reason to believe "white supremacists" was the rumor and not just "whites".

The black community in Lansing disputed the cause of death, believing there was circumstantial evidence of assault. His family had frequently been harassed by the Black Legion, a white supremacist group that his father accused of burning down their home in 1929. Some blacks believed the Black Legion was responsible for Earl Little's death. One of the adults at the funeral told eight-year-old Philbert Little that his father had been hit from behind and shoved under the streetcar.[15]

Glennconti (talk) 03:36, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

You're right; I've restored your change. EEng (talk) 07:02, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Herb Caen

Kudos for your work on the Herb Cain article. Dlabtot (talk) 01:03, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Why, thank you, kind sir or madam. I actually tear up a bit sometimes when I think that he's actually gone. It's amazing -- he started with the Chronicle when my mother was 8 years old

If you search for <!-- in the raw text you'll find notes on ways the article can be improved -- it particularly could use more material on the unique feel of HC's work, and on tributes from others. The NYT obit, SFGate piece, and Pulitzer award must certainly have choice bits that can be mined -- also there's in interview with HC himself cited somewhere. Why not take a stab in your abundant spare time.

EEng (talk) 03:36, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

P.S. Two items -- paraphrased from memory -- which I particularly remember and have only halfheartedly tried to find (though I suspect the bulk of Caen's text is under the Chron's tight lock and key):

• [Early 70s, last item of the day's column -- typical zinger ending a HC column] FREUDIAN SLIP OF THE WEEK AWARD Hubert Humphrey, recalling the wonders of the LBJ Administration to The Tomorrow Show's Tom Snyder: "At least we didn't wash our dirty Lyndon in public!"
• ...Sign posted in the anatomy lab at Stanford Medical School: "Students -- use only half of brain!"

Fundamental science

I understand your concern about the intelligibility of the entry. A more productive approach would be to edit the confusing text rather than to write "huh!" I would encourage you to improve upon the current text and remove the "huh".Iss246 (talk) 13:39, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

If you understand my concern about the intelligibility of

Fundamental science, in contrast to applied science, is defined as a fundamental knowledge it develops.

then you should have understood my tagging that passage with ''{{huh}}'' [20] and, in consequence, should have known better than to revert that tag with the edit summary "removed vandalism" [21]. Certainly had I any idea what that sentence was struggling to express, I would have rewritten it. But I hadn't, so I couldn't, and the ''{{huh}}'' -- which (it just now occurs to me) you may not realize is valid Wikipedia markup for [clarification needed]) -- should stay in hopes some better mind than mine will be attracted to the problem of decrypting not only that particular passage but the entire mishmash of fractured grammar and repetitive vagary which is the surrounding article,

A review of your edits over time suggests you are a valuable contributor who nonetheless has an unfortunate tendency toward labeling as vandalism others' apparently well-meant edits you happen to disagree with or don't understand. I think this is well illustrated in your discussion [22] with another editor about his adding a link somewhere which you found unhelpful; you labeled his addition vandalism, and he or she rightly objected. In the ensuing discussion you wrote

The point is so many people make bad additions to Wikipedia. I like to undo vandalism and generally protect Wikipedia from bad additions. That is not wasting time. You are the one who wastes time with your minutiae. I want to make Wikipedia better. Maybe what you did is not vandalism in the sense that a writer enters a curse word in a Wikipedia entry. But patronizing users does not make Wikipedia better.

When another editor makes what you judge to be a "bad addition" -- indeed does anything not manifestly in bad faith -- it is not only "not vandalism in the sense of adding a curse word" (as you say above), it's not vandalism at all, because WP:VAND defines vandalism as "a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia". So in future, before typing vandalism in an edit summary please be sure this narrow definition actually applies.

EEng (talk) 19:27, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I have about 6000 edits. Often I edit and edit and edit until a sentence or paragraph comes out intelligibly. The first editorial change is only a step in the direction of improving the sentence. It often takes several steps. Occasionally I make a bad edit; so what. Who hasn't? The exclamation "Huh" looked like vandalism, and not a technical term. I would not have dreamed it to be a Wikipedia markup. Maybe it isn't vandalism but it looks like vandalism.

I think you had to go searching through my past edits to find the disagreement you came up with in order give me a "gotcha". That is pathetic. That is what a scheming politician does to his or her opponent, searching through reams of statements the opponent made to find a misstatement somewhere in the haystack. I reversed plenty of vandalism in the meantime. Maybe you had the time to comb through 6000 edits to arrive at your "gotcha". And I started at least 20 Wikipedia pages from scratch. But you choose to concentrate on minutiae. It is you with your searching through the haystack to find fault who is the minutiae person. Moreover the issue of your "gotcha", if I can remember it was, from my standpoint, more about patronizing readers than about minutiae. I have done a good deal of constructive work on Wikipedia. I prefer not to comb through your past edits to find a mistake.

I also think it is far better to do one of two things than to write "huh" even if "huh" is a markup: (a) work on improving the sentence, even a little; (b) write in the Talk page to discuss the intelligibility of the text.

Iss246 (talk) 20:06, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

The following markup term would be less ambiguous than "huh": , a markup term that is more familiar to me, and easily understood by contributors.

Iss246 (talk) 23:46, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Do you honestly not realize that you're digging yourself deeper? The tag {{citation needed}} is not a substitute for {{huh}}, because one renders as (which is not what I meant) and the other as (which is). My use of it was exactly in keeping with its purpose, and therefore not subject to your review.

In contrast, your labeling of others' well-meant efforts as vandalism is not only offensive but contrary to WP:VAND, and therefore a fair topic of discussion. This is a bad habit you've manifested for a long time -- searching the string vandal in your talk and contributions pages makes this clear in just a minute or two.

That you seem to think this required some great exertion on my part -- that you haven't mastered WP:INDENT [23] -- that you think it's OK (see above) to jump to the conclusion that markup with which you're unfamiliar must be vandalism -- that you insist on posting identical responses in multiple places because you don't grasp how others will otherwise know you've commented [24] -- all suggest that you not only have much still to learn about Wikipedia (we all do) but that you don't realize that you have much still to learn. Since psychology is an interest of yours you should already be familiar with the Dunning-Kruger effect.

I've encouraged you -- as others have before -- to give the vandalism accusations a rest, and you have responded -- as you have before -- by contrasting your lofty and rarefied contributions with others' "minutiae". You flatter yourself. No one cares about your 6000 edits and 20 articles (and you especially should stay away from such statistics, given that you needed 16 edits to do this). We each contribute in our own way but since you force the issue, there's some evidence that my work is far from the fluffy minutiae you comfort yourself by imagining it to be: [25] [26][27][28].

You're riding for a fall. Stop crying vandalism where it's not clearly warranted.

EEng (talk) 01:35, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

People do care about starting articles on interesting and relevant topics in psychology. The Dunning-Kruger effect does not apply here.

YES, I needed 16 edits; I am taking on faith your count because I trust that you looked into the matter. My approach is to write and change and write and change. When I look at an edit I entered I am usually not satisfied, and return to it. In fact, it took me 8 edits (uncharacteristically I went back and counted the number of edits) to work on the bit in fundamental science you identified. I did not have the wherewithal to continue with my effort to locate an apt citation although I was on the trail of one; I simply stopped in order to participate in this colloquy. I am still not happy with my edits on the fundamental science entry. I think the entry should have more detail, including examples from, say, physics and mechanical engineering.

I can understand your upset at my having identified the "huh" as vandalism. I'm sorry for that. I did not recognize the term as a marker. I am much more accustomed to the marker because it spells out exactly what is needed.Iss246 (talk) 14:12, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Your impersonation of a clueless Wikipedia editor has been mildly enjoyable until now, but the amusement is beginning to wear thin. Nonetheless I'll continue to play along and pretend you actually think what you posted above substantively engages my earlier comments.

• Honestly, I would expect someone who teaches graduate-level statistics [29] (which was getting harder and harder for me to believe until I realized it's probably "stats for psych") to steer clear of claims so directly falsifiable by a single numerical datum, to wit 15 -- as in: over the last 30 days, the 20 started-by-you articles average a mere 15 page visits per day per article -- hardly a sign these are articles people "do care about." This is not what I was referring to when I said "Nobody cares about your 6000 edits and 20 articles" -- my point originally was that quality, not quantity, of contribution is what matters -- but then you just had to respond with an unsupported assertion begging to be refuted, didn't you?
• Interestingly, although the denial I have determined myself not to be an example of Dunning-Kruger is normally a nullity (because it could just as well be spoken by a D-K sufferer who, by definition, does not realize it, as by someone who genuinely is competent), in the special case of someone who claims expertise in psychology that same denial actually confirms the very thing it attempts to deny -- that is, that the speaker in fact is an example of D-K.

• Why? Because a psychologist who doesn't realize that I have determined myself not to be an example of D-K is a nullity clearly doesn't understand an important concept in his own field (D-K), thereby showing himself to be actually suffering from it! Delicious, isn't it?
• Adapting from Dr. John H. Watson, M.D., Late Indian Army: Talent instantly recognizes genius, but mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself.

• Please learn to indent your comments per WP:INDENT, so that others needn't constantly adjust your posts to keep the thread of discussion clear, as I have had to do for all your posts to date in what you call "this colloquy". (Good SAT word, that, though too bad it doesn't apply here -- you better check a good dictionary before word-dropping it again. It occurs to me that you may have meant it satirically, but since the entirety of your side of the exchange so far may very well be satire -- it's hard to tell -- this would be satire within satire which is just too much for me to untangle.)
• Please start using the <preview> button instead of saving zillions of tiny changes, which clutter up revision histories and make it very annoying for others to follow the sequence of changes. You should not be clicking <save> until you've arrived at text which (a) as an absolute minimum, would be OK to leave as the standing version of the page should e.g. you be suddenly called away to some emergency before making further changes, and (b) ideally, is better (more complete, improved references, nothing removed which needs to be added back) than the existing version.
• Please stop using edit as an edit summary. To summarize an edit by saying edit is meaningless.
• Please review WP:TM. You seem to think is some kind of Swiss Army Knife for inline tagging. It's not. Surely you can appreciate the spectrum running from

• {{cn}}=="This needs a source for verification" to
• {{clarify}}=="This seems comprehensible, but deserves to be expressed more clearly" to
• {{huh}}=="I can't even figure out what this is trying to say."

(Although {{clarify}} and {{huh}}) both render as in what the reader sees, they send usefully different messages to other editors.)

• Last, but most important: I appreciate the apology, and hope this is the end of your unwarranted vandalism accusations. A good rule (though not one I can say I always follow -- but then I don't have people taking me to task about inappropriate vandalism charges) might be to never use the word vandalism if there's any other way to express your objection e.g. "rv incomprehensible addition", "rv unsourced dubious claim", "rm over linking".
• Fun time's over -- please make your next response a serious one. Or just stop accusing people of vandalism who haven't vandalized. That's the only thing this entire conversation is about, except of course the various smokescreens you keep raising about "minutiae" and so on.

Good luck. This tape will self-destruct in five seconds. EEng (talk) 06:37, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Fred Rogers

Nice to meet you, EEng. It's always good to find intelligent life at a television-related article. I do see your point about excess detail in the lede, and there's no doubt that for many readers just learning that the sweater is at the Smithsonian will convey the gist of it well enough. However, let's consider those readers who know little or nothing about the Smithsonian. Saying the sweater is "on display at the Smithsonian Institution" is just imprecise enough to mislead to those readers because it implies that the Institution is a place, or at least is associated with a place, when it's actually a government agency that administers a variety of places. One might say with equal validity that a certain sculpture is on display at the National Park Service or that the Pietà is on display at the Roman Catholic Church. Such analogies may seem like a stretch, since it's unlikely anyone would say those things, but that's because they know better; in the case of the Smithsonian, the misconceptions are rampant. In my experience, a large number of Americans, as well as innumerable non-Americans, equate the Smithsonian with a museum or group of museums on the National Mall in Washington, and I think the current wording might perpetuates such misconceptions. I could be wrong. Rivertorch (talk) 05:53, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe your Pieta and Honest Abe examples are comparable -- if you ask a carabinieri (in Italian, of course) for directions to "the Catholic Church" no doubt you'll get a puzzled look, but if you ask a DC denizen "Where's the Smithsonian" he'll point you in the right direction, not deliver a lecture on the ambiguity of your inquiry. It's nice to gently enhance the reader's understanding of such distinctions where possible, but not at the expense of stultification. The lead's P.S.Q. (pedantic stultification quotient) should be kept especically low, and I don't see any way to import the specific location into the lead without it seeming strained. It's in the later photo caption, though, and there it seems fine.

BTW I dislike the term lede as often used by WP editors. it smacks of pretension (present company excepted of course), especially because it's an import from journalism referring to a somewhat different way of structuring an article than is (or should be) used here. EEng (talk) 08:29, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

I do have journalism in my checkered past, so I hope you'll forgive my spelling of the word. My rationale nowadays is that avoiding homographs whenever possible precludes ambiguity, even when misunderstanding is unlikely. Eccentric? Probably.

Asked "Where's the Smithsonian", a DC denizen is likely to ask you to clarify exactly what you're looking for. If he fails to do this, the odds of ending up where you meant to go are less than overwhelming. In any event, your most recent edit elegantly sidesteps the pitfall. Nice job. Rivertorch (talk) 10:59, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

In the context of writing -- thus putting aside dance lessons, Der Fuehrer, London dogs-in-the-park-must-be-on admonitions, and your dentist's x-ray apron (oomph! this thing weighs a TON) -- lead is a general term for the opening of any written work. But lede is newspaper jargon (the spelling, they say, to avoid ambiguity between lead = story opening vs. lead = what a clumsy printer's devil might pi -- not sure I buy this) for an opening in the specific style peculiar to newspapers. But newspaper-style leads/ledes are not appropriate for WP articles, and so neither is lede.

BTW, did you see my changes to the, er, lead of Smithsonian?

I not only saw, I commented above. Am I writing in invisible pixels today or did I set it on my Linotype by mistake? (And no, my checkered past does not extend back quite that far, thanks very much). Rivertorch (talk) 20:07, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

You're not trying to gaslight me, are you? Either I'm losing losing my mind, or you are (losing your mind that is, not mine -- though if you happen to find my mind I'd appreciate its return) -- or maybe both (though let's not push the panic button just yet). I'm talking about this diff (which includes further changes made just now, actually). Now, um, did you refer to that change above somewhere? EEng (talk) 23:49, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Oops! You typed "Smithsonian" and I read it as "Fred Rogers"—a common mistake, I believe. (Mutters to self: "Now where did I put that mind of mine?) The edit looks spiffy, and so do the subsequent ones. I didn't look too closely. My watchlist groweth long. Rivertorch (talk) 09:52, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Maybe a nice rest in the countryside. Nice meeting you. EEng (talk) 16:03, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Genealogy databases

Hello, I thought an earlier post of yours about the use of Ancestry.com was truly excellent, and I have cited it here [30]. If you are interested, you might want to take a look at the RSN discussion yourself and contribute your own thoughts. I am sure they would be helpful. Slp1 (talk) 13:11, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Barnstar of (ploop) --oh NO it fell in the water!

	Barnstar of (ploop) --oh NO it fell in the water!
	for the wise and humorous "combative injurues" --> "combat injurues" edit Cramyourspam (talk) 05:03, 3 Oct 2012 (UTC)

Thank you

for rescuing the formatting of my recent post at WT:MoS 16:43, 29 December 2012 (UTC) This comment by editor Kevin McE, who has somehow figured a way to timestamp his post without his name appearing -- neat trick!

You're very kind, in light of the quality of the rescue effort -- start with [31] and follow "Next edit" from there a few times to see what I mean. EEng (talk) 16:52, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Harvard daze

Moving the conversation here, where there might be fewer eavesdroppers than on my own page. I am sorry you have had to resort to "shouting" to elicit a response from me. My long silence is certainly not because of anything you said. Other responsibilities, general overload and frequent crises preclude my doing much more than dabble in editing on WP for now. A more constant and concentrated collaboration remains a distant hope. Thank you for understanding, and please do feel appreciated, jokes and all (or perhaps especially).

An interest in the Cavendish area helped bring me to the Phineas Gage article long before I was aware of your connection with it. I always regarded it as a thoroughgoing, well-organized, high quality job, in addition to telling a remarkable story. Cheers for now, Hertz1888 (talk) 01:43, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Good thinking, Chief! Activate the Cone of Silence <whirrrrr CLICK!> I'd like to talk with you sometime... I SAID... I'D LIKE TO TALK... i SAID... I'D LIKE TO TALK WITH YOU SOMETIME ABOUT YOUR INTEREST IN CAVENDISH. EEng (talk) 03:31, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

thanks

I left without saying anything due to personal reasons and also a lot of burnt out sensation. Right now I am not really sure if I will stay for long or this will be only temporal until I fix a bit the multiple sclerosis article. Nevertheless to hear from a lot of people that still remember me has been a great experience of coming back. I am sure many things will have changed here in wikipedia and the med-project in all this time. I will try to catch up and ask for help if needed...--Garrondo (talk) 20:33, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

You were very much missed; I had the awful idea you'd been hit by a car or something. Sounds like it would be best if you just stuck narrowly to the MS article so as to not let yourself get overburdened at first. Feel free to ask for help. EEng (talk) 21:45, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Admin-wannabee sockpuppet poseur warns that talkpage humor constitutes vandalism!

Thank you for your contributions, but we are trying to write an encyclopedia here, so please keep your edits factual and neutral. Our readers are looking for serious articles and will not find joke edits amusing. Remember that Wikipedia is a widely used reference tool, so we have to take what we do here seriously. If you'd like to experiment with editing, use the sandbox to get started. Thank you. Please do not continue to engage on talking on Lockley's talk page, thank you. (This was sent from my iPhone, sorry for any errors) Binko71100 (talk) 00:37, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

As explained at User talk:Lockley, you don't know what you're talking about, either in the matter of my interactions with Lockley, or in the question of whether redirects should be tagged as orphans. Your participation has served to muddle the facts and give Lockley the idea he's be wronged somehow. Take more time to understand what's going on before wading in -- perhaps if you were using a full-sized device you'd be more able to get the "big picture" of the situation. EEng (talk) 21:25, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Please stop introducing jokes into articles/talk pages. Wikipedia is a serious encyclopedia, and contributions of this type are considered vandalism. Continuing to add jokes and other disruptive content into articles/user and talk pages may lead to you being blocked from editing or lead to other consequences. Sorry if this warning template didn't make sense, but this is for your yet continuing improper/rude humor, not for anything having to do with redirects and such. Binko71100 (talk) 02:35, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I believe it was Sam Butler that wrote,

Man is the only animal that laughs and has a state legislature.

Were he alive today, he's have written instead,

Man is the only animal that laughs and has Wikipedia admins.

(The above is not meant to impugn all admins -- the vast majority of whom comport themselves with grace, good humor, and sound judgment -- but merely those such as you.) You modified [32] the warning template (which warns against jokes in articles) to make it look like humor in discussions is also forbidden. While it is frequently recommended -- and properly so -- that care be exercised when employing humor in discussions, if you think anyone is going to support your laughable (get it -- laughable?) idea that humor in discussions is an actual no-no, then you need your head examined.

(For the record I have once or twice let temptation get the best of me and made a joke edit to an article -- e.g. [33] -- but that's not what's going in here.)

EEng (talk) 18:11, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

(I'll come right out and say it...) You're a sockpuppet, aren't you, Binko71100?

Wait a minute, Binko! You're not even an admin! You have 130 edits; you registered two weeks ago and immediately created a faked user page [34] and started (Special:Contributions/Binko71100) issuing ban warnings, and within 45 minutes of your own account's creation set up the userpage (revid 532065406) of another new account -- only 2 minutes after that other account was created [35] and before that account's very first edit (revid 532065177, and see Special:Contributions/Sullivanriley) -- and then quickly changed that account's userpage [36] to a little stub that doesn't reveal that you're the one who initially created it. That account made just enough edits to be autoconfirmed.

Then suddenly you're an instructor in the Antivandalism Academy [37], you're congratulating Lockley on his great work [38], and soon he's consulting you [39] about me, and of course you give him unconditional support (though completely erroneous advice) [40] followed by the bizarre warnings to me above.

So, who are you really?

EEng (talk) 20:07, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I have absolutely no relation to any Wikimedia accounts besides this one and one with my IP address (I first began editing in 2008 sometime) that I used to use quite often before creating this account. By 'ban hammer,' I meant requesting bans of repetitive vandals. Lockley was just someone doing a nice job with the New Pages queue and a friend of mine suggested he deserved a barnstar. A week or so later, this issue came about. I wasn't worried about redirects, I was worried about your history of demeaning and rude jokes on other user talk pages. Talk page or article, doesn't matter. Mean/inappropriate things are unacceptable. As for Sullivanriley, I was both testing as well as welcoming the user, as I hadn't been active in a month or so. Just what I have to say, sorry for the late response, as I have a life, you know. - Binko71100 (talk) 04:57, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Some followup

Hmmmm... And how did you come to know of Sullivanriley's existence, two minutes after that account had been created and apparently before it had made even a single edit? Also, I'd be interested to know how you and Baldy Bill became friends, given that he was almost entirely dormant since his account was created abt 2 years ago, until he suddenly became active about 2 months ago? EEng (talk) 19:04, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

As you should know, there is a log of new users, as well as a display showing when new accounts are created in Recent Changes. Baldy_Bill and I became friends because we both frequently work on the new pages queue and the defcon measurement going with it. Soon we began to just converse with eachother and collaborate naturally. -- Binko71100 (talk) 03:42, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

No, I didn't know. I'm satisfied that (on the evidence here, at least) that you're neither a sockpuppet nor a puppetmaster and assuming that's correct, I'm sorry to have troubled you. Please try to be less strident. EEng (talk) 13:44, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Haha, I guess I do appreciate your humor, although it can get out of hand :D. Anyways, take care. -- Binko71100 (talk) 16:37, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Privacy and no disclosure

Privacy is important on Wikipedia. If you wish to publish you university address and telephone number on your user page your are free to do so. But be aware that not everyone who uses this site is sane, and it is not appropriate for others to make any comment or allusion about another users's personal information that has not been disclosed by that user. I don't care (and I doubt any others do care about which university if any you attend), but to start to see why this can be a problem spend some time reading WP:ANI and you will soon read vitriol on that page of a similar type that you see with university dons (too Oxbridge for you?) competing for the same funding. The trouble is that if an editor starts to edit controversial pages then information about them could be a matter of life and death (they may after be Liverpool FC supporters[41]). But in all seriousness ponder on this example. -- PBS (talk) 12:18, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

You needn't explain to me why privacy is worthy of protection (whether on WP or elsewhere) and you'll get no argument from me that some here are not playing with a full deck. But that doesn't have anything to do with it, because -- don't you get it yet? -- Lockley didn't make allusion to my personal information. He made a series of jokes in which I actively participated [42]. He violated neither the letter nor the spirit of WP:PRIVACY. It's conceivable you didn't grasp that in the moment, but what you nonetheless should have grasped -- and what absolutely cannot have escaped your discerning by now -- is that I am perfectly capable of handling such a situation myself [43]. And please no lectures [44] about how humor can be misunderstood. Everything can be misunderstood, and I happen to believe that frequent exposure to humor (which draws its power from tensions among competing views of things) sharpens the critical faculties, and thereby aids discussion. Please give the sermonizing a rest now. EEng (talk) 18:16, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

From a new friend

The Whiffenpoofs poised to perform the Fantasies of Victimization of 1912

EEng, shockingly, I find I quite like you. The change came when I began to put your comments in the voice of Seth Green's character in Party Monster. It's no insult. He's mesmerizing. And when I imagine Seth Green's voice saying the phrases "Naturally I thought Lockley was behind this at first" and "be careful not to feed Lockley's fantasy of victimization" in the same breath, it makes a lot more sense. Now do let's leave each other alone for awhile if you can stand it.--Lockley (talk) 02:35, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I never saw PM and have only just now checked it out. Your comparison to me took on a disturbing quality when I read, ...which details his friendship with Alig, that later fell apart as Alig's drug addiction worsened, and ended after he murdered Angel Melendez and went to prison, until I realized that the Seth Green character is the friend, not the murderer. EEng (talk) 22:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I get that hate-turns-to-love thing a lot, though usually it takes years. I'm assuming you've alredy seen [45]. Shall we now, together, tell PBS to go soak his or her head? What a schoolmarm! It's like Atilla the Hun has appeared to dispense justice on my behalf. Saints preserve us! EEng (talk) 02:49, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Be more careful who you hang out with -- that Binky guy's up to no good.

P.P.S. Pull any more of that Yale shit and I'll have you boiled in oil.

okay, got it, no more Yalie stuff. --Lockley (talk) 03:17, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Honestly, Lockley, I'd have thought, in this day and age, that you'd know better than to make fun of Poofs [46]. EEng (talk) 22:28, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Spreading sunshine and happiness everywhere

You recently removed my section that I posted here...Wikipedia_talk:No_personal_attacks. My section was not off-topic. It offered specific suggestions regarding how the article might be improved. Please undo your edit. Thanks. --Xerographica (talk) 10:27, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Your text

Hey Rich, if you truly believe that these are personal attacks, then why not improve this article by updating it to match your preferences?

is not an attempt to improve the policy page, but rather a taunt to another editor. I will not restore it. But go ahead and do it yourself, if you wish; you're just digging yourself deeper. EEng (talk) 10:33, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

According to the relevant Wikipedia policy...was it a personal attack when I asked you to stop being disruptive? --Xerographica (talk) 10:52, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

(Sorry, missed your post until now...) Answer: I don't know and I don't care -- didn't bother me in context. Just please stop being a jerk all over the place. EEng (talk) 11:42, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Soft hyphens

They weren't mistakenly removed; that was intentional. See my previous edit summary which stated: "Undid revision 537758394 by EEng (talk); the remainder of the article does not use soft hyphens".

1. Unless you know of a provision of the MOS that requires them, it's odd to have only the one part of an article using them when I've never seen them used elsewhere.
2. They break up the text in the edit window, in the middle of words, making it harder for others to decipher what words.
3. They are of limited utility. Yes, they tell a browser where it could break a word for hyphenation at the end of a line, but the body of the article lacks such a feature, making the quote horribly inconsistent.

Under the principle of consistency, please either add soft hyphens to the rest of the text of the article, or please leave them removed. Imzadi 1979 → 17:42, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

See my edit summary, subsequent to yours quoted above:

doesn't matter whether the rest of the article uses s-hyphens -- because quote box doesn't justify (can you figure out how to do that?) wordbreaks are esp. useful here.

The pullquote is selfconsciously highfalutin, incorporating superabundant multisyllabic bombastic verbosity. Combining this with no justification in the quotebox -- and here I repeat that I would be much obliged if you can tell me how to enable such justification -- and the result is an sightly ragged righthand margins (depending on screen size and magnification). & shy; fixes that, and improving what the reader sees outweighs the beauty or consistency what the reader doesn't see i.e. the markup.

I didn't add & shy; elsewhere because I don't see offhand where it would do any good. Your suggestion to "add soft hyphens to the rest of the text," just to mollify some vengeful god of consistency, directly contradicts your other complaint, that & shy; makes source text hard to read. (And that's not an argument in the present case, BTW, because the pullquote is verbatim and subject to little or no editing anyway.)

Markup is there to be used, and here it is put to its intended purpose. If you want to add more throughout the article, go ahead -- though it will have little or no effect on the rendered text -- but do not remove those already there which serve a purpose.

EEng (talk) 23:39, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Would you mind explaining your position on soft hyphens here? --bender235 (talk) 07:33, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I took the soft hyphens out of 3 articles that had many hundreds each. They do much more harm than good, according to the consensus at the discussion linked above. Probably we should say so in the MOS. Dicklyon (talk) 15:34, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Doubting Thomas

I think my "current manic burst of energy has spent itself", also on Girdle of Thomas. So please feel free. Johnbod (talk) 02:06, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, why don't you go up to your room and loosen that girdle. Ooof! Doesn't that feel better? EEng (talk) 04:02, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Precious

guarded logic
Thank you for quality articles such as John Harvard statue, developed with care for detail and explicit edit summaries, revealing "the idea of the three lies is at best a fourth", and other math, - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:48, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

A year ago, you were the 463rd recipient of my PumpkinSky Prize, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:12, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Greetings

Widener Stacks Reading Room as final exams approach.

Greetings, EEng. I hear springtime in [name of university location redacted for security reasons] is a splendid spectacle and I do hope you're enjoying the hell out of it, getting full value out of your tuition, and making those lifelong connections. Or, alternative to all that, digging your couch. --Lockley (talk) 04:03, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps you misunderestimate my earthly tenure -- my lifelong connections were made long ago. Sadly, the most cherished of those (see Andrew Gleason) ended a while back. EEng (talk) 06:03, 18 May 2013 (UTC) P.S. Probably pointed you to this before, but if not... you may enjoy Sacred Cod. Comments invited.

Discussion re what one editor considers a personal attack, and another does not

If you don't like the section header, then delete the whole section. Don't edit my comments.

Struck-out hatnote was added by PinkAmpersand

Sorry, but section headers have visibility and prominence (e.g. in TOC) disconnected from their content and should needn't be allowed to represent your opinion only. For the record, PinkAmpersand's orginal section header was Personal attack EEng (talk) 04:42, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I won't do you the disrespect of templating you, so, let me say simply this: I don't really care how bad of a guy Qworty was, or how much he deserves to be banned. (My own opposition is simply because I think a ban to be slightly overkill... however, a lot of users I highly respect disagree with me, and I don't plan on lobbying this.) He could be the epitome with everything that's wrong with Wikipedia and I still wouldn't feel any differently about what you said. You should know better than this, and in my opinion the first admin who saw what you wrote should have indeffed you on the spot until you were willing to agree to never say anything like that again. Not, mind you, because I think you're some contemptible troll, but because blocks exist to prevent disruption to the project, and what you said was clearly and unabashedly disruptive, calculated with the maximum intent to insult. I really don't like making enemies here, so I'd be very happy if this were the last time I felt compelled to call you out for something. — PinkAmpers&^{(Je vous invite à me parler)} 06:46, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

For those who may be wondering, PinkAmpersand is referring to a comment of mine [47] in the ANI discussion on banning User:Qworty. That comment was:

Ban this revolting intellectually masturbating narcissist so he can enter the final phase of his career i.e. teaching high school English or freshman composition while fantasizing about the literary glory that should have been his. "It’s time to get over the Internet. It’s time to get over ourselves." [48] Whatever the fuck that means, you dumbass. EEng (talk) 04:59, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

PinkAmpersand and another editor objected to that post on BLP and NPA grounds, and removed it from the discussion. I would have restored it, with the following comments, but for the fact that the ANI discussion is now closed. My response is the following.

BLP doesn't come into this since no one could possibly interpret my comments as assertions of fact rather than my own interpretation of his behavior; meanwhile NPA must be applied in light of the fact that in a ban discussion we are, inevitably, discussing not content but the contributor. (NPA: "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence." -- such evidence is present in spades in this case.)

My words distilled the feelings of betrayal and embarrassment Qworty's behavior aroused in me and, I am confident, in other editors. Because such feelings were a predictable consequence of the eventual exposure of Qworty's behavior, expressing them sheds light on the heedless disruptiveness of Qworty's longterm determination to engage in such behavior, and was therefore an appropriate contribution to the discussion about whether to chuck this jerk out on his ass.

However, in light of your concerns I'll rephrase as follows:

Ban this difficult selfabsorbed person (whose behavior raises significant WP:NOTHERE issues), perhaps redicting him to more effective outlets for his talents and allowing him to reflect on his contributions toward improving the lot of his fellow man. I find his recent userpage comments unhelpful in terms of explaining his longterm behavior.

Finally, PinkAmpersand, since you dislike making enemies (as you say), you might think twice before taking on the role of Wikipedia scold. If (as, again, you say) you think a ban for Qworty is overkill then your judgment about editor behavior and appropriate responses to it is seriously flawed.

EEng (talk)

I understand that you were very angry, and perhaps understandably so, but I don't think that "he had it coming" is an appropriate defense for gross incivility. Your comments were practically the definition of a personal attack, and the fact that you refuse to admit that disturbs me far more than the fact that you said them in the first place (which could otherwise be written off as a "crime of passion"). There is no backing in policy for your "predictable consequence" argument; rather, NPA tells us

The prohibition against personal attacks applies equally to all Wikipedians. It is as unacceptable to attack a user with a history of foolish or boorish behavior, one who is blocked, or one who has been subject to action by the Arbitration Committee, as it is to attack any other user.

Furthermore, the amount of "serious evidence" (which I agree existed) is immaterial, seeing as your comments were entirely about his personal real-world life.

This is all a moot point now, more or less, but if you're unable to acknowledge the wrongness of your own actions, instead choosing to wikilawyer your way out of it, I must say that I hope you change your ways soon, before you wind up getting yourself blocked for disruptive editing. (Also, how fucking dare you use my !vote to suggest I'm not fit to criticize you? That's practically a PA in itself—deflecting criticism with ad hominem arguments.) Anyways, I'll be disengaging now. Bye. Hope I've given you some food for thought. — PinkAmpers&^{(Je vous invite à me parler)} 03:37, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

The fact that you have failed utterly to understand what I wrote, which had nothing to do with "he had it coming", disturbs me far more than the fact of your starting this fuss (which could otherwise be written off as a "kneejerk reaction"). To make it easy for you I'll highlight the nub again:

expressing [such feelings] sheds light on the heedless disruptiveness of Qworty's longterm determination to engage in such behavior, and was therefore an appropriate contribution to the discussion.

I'm happy to repeat that your idea that Qworty shouldn't be banned brings into serious question your ideas about editor behavior and the appropriate response to them. And juxtaposing your more recent suggestion that I should be indeffed makes your poor judgment even more manifest.

Just so you know, by the way, I'm not saying any of the above because I think you're some contemptible troll, either.

EEng (talk) 04:42, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Nomination of Phineas Gage for Good Article status

Hi, this is a note to let you know that an article you appear to have put a lot of work into, Phineas Gage, has been nominated for GA status. You may wish to monitor the talk page (but I imagine you do already) for any reviewer comments. Thanks. CurlyLoop (talk) 19:07, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Sandom Fracas

Dear EEng, great quote from the EB: Plutarch relates, that before this, upon some of Cato's friends expressing their surprise, that while many persons without merit or reputation had statues, he had none, he answered, "I had much rather it should be asked why the people have not erected a statue to Cato, than why they have."

The problem here is that I didn't create this statue; someone else did. I am merely trying to scrape the pigeon excrement off the shoulders.

This all started when someone called me and said they had seen a strange COI notice on the W entry about me. When I went to look, I also saw the COI and tried to engage with Wikipedia's editors to find out why and how it got there. Do you really believe I would make this stuff up about my 12-year-old? Really? I mean, come on!!!!

Nor am I in any way, shape or form worried that the media may see the Talk Page attendant to the Article Page about me. On the contrary, I am in the process of writing an article about this entire affair which I will make sure you get a copy of, if I ever find the time to finish it. Plus, the final chapter of this sage has yet to be written.

However, I did enjoy your Plutarch, in all seriousness. Having spent 7 years of my youth learning Latin (and some Greek), I have a great fondness for the classics. Here is one you may enjoy; it's one of the dicta from the boarding school in the UK that I attended called . . . oh, wait, that information was expunged from the Early Life part of my article. LOL!

Ok, I'll tell you: Winchester College. The saying is, "Aut disce, aut discede. Manet sors tertia -- Caedi."

Cheers, EEng. Sandom (talk) 04:07, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, I'll just have to run that by my Harvard roommate -- he prepped at [elite boarding school] of course -- who naturally was a Rhodes Scholar after graduating summa in a double major combining classics with [other impressive field of concentration]. One time at master's tea just before high table, one of many Nobel laureates who graced our Senior Common Room made a most amusing quip...

Do you honestly not see how immodest you appear dropping lines such as Having spent 7 years of my youth learning Latin (and some Greek)? (All that stuff about my roommate and so on is real, BTW, but I don't trot it out at the drop of a hat -- except when in the private company of elites such as ourselves, of course.)

I sincerely hope you didn't make up the stuff about your daughter, but I have no way of knowing. Certainly many, many people have done such things in similar circumstances. I urge you, for the sake of your daughter, to just withdraw. Drop it. Stop looking at the article. Ask you friends not to look at it and certainly not to talk to you about it. Just forget it.

EEng (talk) 04:59, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

J.G., the article was created by an IP editor on April 8, 2005, and read as follows at creation:

"Often referred to as the "father of Internet (interactive) advertising," J. G. Sandom founded the world’s first interactive advertising agency, Einstein and Sandom Interactive (EASI), in 1984. It grew to become the largest digital marketing services firm when it was purchased by DMB&B (MacManus Group) in 1994. Sandom continued to manage EASI on behalf of DMB&B through 1996.

From January 1997 through October 1999, Sandom served as Director of Interactive at OgilvyOne Worldwide, where he grew the company from a loss of $2MM to an estimated $100MM in revenues in 30 months, and from 12 “permalancers” to 650 digital marketing specialists worldwide; named “Number One Interactive Ad Agency” – 1999, by Ad Age magazine.

From November 1999 through 2001, Sandom served as President and CEO, and then Vice Chairman of RappDigital Worldwide, the interactive arm of direct marketing/direct response agency giant Rapp Collins Worldwide, an Omnicom Company. Within a year of inception, RappDigital became one of the nation’s “Top Ten” interactive ad agencies, according to Ad Age magazine.

Sandom is also the author of six novels including Gospel Truths and The Hunting Club (Doubleday); the latter was optioned by Warner Bros. for theatrical development. He is currently working on a new novel, The Unresolved, for Penguin/Dutton/NAL."

J.G., do you have any idea who wrote that? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:44, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Jim, what's an IP editor? And I believe you're wrong about the creation date of the Article. I thought it was older. But who knows. That was a long time ago. I can barely remember what I had for dinner yesterday. The article you quote above has several errors in it. “Top Ten” should read "Top Twenty", The Hunting Club was from Bantam - A Crime Line book (not Doubleday, which is, I believe, a sister house), and The Unresolved was a Dutton Children's pub (not a Penguin or NAL book, although they're both sister houses too, I believe . . . but don't quote me on that; they're all consolidated now and there are precious few independents left). Sandom (talk) 05:09, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Sandom, please take my advice. Don't ever look at your article again. Go immediately silent in all these discussions, except for a one-sentence bowing out. It will be better that way. EEng (talk) 05:14, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Malcolm X

Thanks! I needed a laugh after a determined attack last night by trolling, vandalizing sockpuppets on my user and talk pages. That's the way to convert a Jew to Christianity, huh? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:34, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Jim Leavelle

Thanks for your help with the caption in the Jim Leavelle article. Have a good day! - Thanks, Hoshie 22:00, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Moving Phineas' notes

I see you have started to move these too. It is well past my bedtime now and I was interrupted for a little while so I will let you carry on otherwise there will be edit conflicts. We should end up with the definitions in "lift order" (same order as they appear in the display - that is not essential for the mechanism to work but it is another way of making life easy for editors). --Mirokado (talk) 23:04, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your demonstrating how to do this. I saw it once somewhere but later could not locate how to do it. I won't bother worrying about lift order during move -- too stressful -- but we can always reorder later. Thanks again! EEng (talk) 23:08, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

June 2013

This is a personal attack. Please don't make any more edit summaries like that. The issue you are edit-warring over is extremely trivial, and you are wrong on the MoS issue, but it's ok that you're wrong on MoS. It's definitely not ok to make personal remarks in your edit summaries. Really, please don't do that again. --John (talk) 21:56, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Oh please. You must be joking. EEng (talk) 22:35, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

No, I am not joking. --John (talk) 05:54, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Look, I appreciate that you think you're keeping me on the straight and narrow, but I stand by my statement, and to underscore that I'll amplify it here: the editor who used to call himself Malleus Fatuorum recently changed his "name" to Eric Corbett; however, I believe it would have been a service to the project had he, instead, changed his name to Malevolent Fatuous, because that would let editors know up front what they might be in for when he appears in any new situation. EEng (talk) 06:05, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Then you are not only behaving in a way that our community norms explicitly find unacceptable, but you are being rather unfair to Eric. You asked him here to get involved in the article, you then disagreed with some (fairly innocuous) edits he made, and now you're throwing out insults to him. Does that seem fair to you? --John (talk) 10:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

More of the same

Please stop assuming ownership of articles. Behavior such as this is regarded as disruptive and could lead to edit wars and personal attacks, and is a violation of Wikipedia policy. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. --John (talk) 17:30, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Please stop ignoring edit summaries explaining clearly why changes are being made, and reverting said changes with your own edit summaries making misleading or false reference to prior policy or discussions. Behavior such as this wastes the time of editors who actually know what they're doing. If you continue, you risk appearing even more clueless than you already do. EEng (talk) 17:36, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

"Editors who know what they're doing" is a category that clearly doesn't include you EEng. Eric Corbett 17:38, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

And less still you Eric.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:59, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

In your opinion. Which frankly isn't worth much. Eric Corbett 18:00, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. See BRD for how this is done. You can post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. --John (talk) 18:07, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Will you PLEASE look at the content of the changes you're reverting? You're obviously not paying attention to what the changes actually are, but just reverting as a knee-jerk reaction. EEng (talk) 18:18, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Phineas Gage GA

I've failed the article. User:Eric Corbett has stated on his talkpage that if the article is passed he will take it to GAR which basically means that he has now made it his personal mission to make life hell for anyone who doesn't agree that he is the sole authority to be followed regarding article writing and formatting. I don't wish that for anyone and therefore see no other choice than to fail. This is an immense shame because the article is great and you have done a great job and Wikipedia should be be ashamed of the way you have been thanked for your volunteer work here. I am very sorry it went like this. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:59, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd like you to reconsider. As I said before this doesn't cause me any stress because (a) crap like whether et al. and so on go in italics doesn't really matter and (b) from a review of his edit history, it seems like Malevolent Fatuous (you do know who I'm talking about, right?) gets into stuff like this all the time and always self-destructs, or gets blocked, or holds his breath until he's blue in the face, or whatever. And as for John, well, he means well.

Many good people have put a lot of effort into this so far; sooner or later the article will be re-nominated, and then again there will be a flurry of attention by everyone and his brother, and again we'll have to go through this stuff. So unless there's a deadline I'd prefer we continue.

Anyway, I don't see where MF said he'll "take it to GAR" -- all I see are comments saying stuff like "we're involved in a GAR" i.e. the normal peer review that's part of the GA process. Did I miss something? Anyway, I don't have any fear of any "higher scrutiny".

If you'll reactivate the process, we can evaluate where we are. One thing to remember is that much or most of the stuff being argued about isn't even on the GA checklist. So, what do you think?

EEng (talk) 23:26, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I am glad it didn't cause you stress, it did to me. Eric said he would take it to GAR at his talkpage. You are of course right in your assessment of his usual behavior pattern. I think it would have to be renominated to take up the review again. You are right that none of this is on the GA checklist. If I re-nominate it I can't review it myself. If you do it I can, or if you like someone else can do it. I'll look at it tomorrow with fresh eyes. Let me know what you think.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:32, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Let me suggest that in the meantime you just revert your own closing with an edit summary something like "Now not so sure I want to close, want to think about it". If you don't do something like that right away then it will need a new nomination and, I'm guessing, you have to wait a while before doing that. And then, as I said, we'll have to deal with a new influx of knowitalls. EEng (talk) 00:22, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry but the closing cannot be reverted once the GA-Bot has updated the GA nominations page and logged the fail into the article history.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:26, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Why don't you post at the Talk of the nom page if someone knows how to undo that manually. I'd be surprised if there isn't. I hate to press but I really don't want to lost the momentum, and since you're the reviewer you're the only one in a position to ask. I'd really appreciate it. EEng (talk) 01:39, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

OK, I'll try. Sorry for the hassle.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 01:56, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I tried but I don't think it is going to happen. You could renominate it right away and we'll take it from there. I would prefer not to review it at a second review, but if you prefer that I do it I will.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:12, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Hey, why didn't I think of this? -- you can just renominate it (I don't think I should). EEng (talk) 03:20, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I couldn't do that, since it would imply that I am responsible for carrying out the response to the review, which I am neither capable or willing to do. I think User:CurlyLoop will be willing to renominate, and Pyrotec who is a competent and experienced reviewer whose reviews I have myself enjoyed has expressed a willingness to take over the review when he finishes two other ones. I apologize for botching this. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 13:19, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

And because you earned this

		The Invisible Barnstar
		Anyone who is brave enough at trying to whack back my verbosity has more than earned this. Your work is truly appreciated. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 06:11, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Let the record reflect that I never asked for this. [49] EEng (talk) 06:27, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Well damn I was finally sifting through the barnstar list to see the most exact, appropriate one today and I've been preempted. If I gave another one, would it come off as excessive? MezzoMezzo (talk) 11:18, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

If we're still talking about Genie, honestly I've hardly done anything really. I started a copyedit thinking Blade was nearly done, but turns out it was just a momentary pause on his part. I think the next step will be the possible split that was discussed a few weeks ago. After that happens (or doesn't) I'll swoop in with my trademark red pencil and overcomplex Brownian sentences. EEng (talk) 11:51, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

P.S. If you're in the market for another article to get involved with, I'd appreciate your taking a look at Phineas Gage. There have been a lot of formatting and layout changes recently, and images added. And there are some special technical problems on which I'm hoping we can get comment from others. There's some discussion on the Talk Talk:Phineas Gage#technical_stuff but it's a bit out of date. Wanna jump in? EEng (talk) 11:51, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

That's a splendid idea and I look forward to User:The Blade of the Northern Lights responding to the request for hours of contributions which was totally directed at him. ;) MezzoMezzo (talk) 12:01, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I should have some time tomorrow, and I'd be more than happy to have a look at things. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:49, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh goody. Thanks to you both. EEng (talk) 21:57, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

You're right

I'll stop replying. Sometimes, I know I'm being goaded and still can't stop rising to the bait. Thank you for your reminder. Unless there are problematic edits to articles (as opposed to talk pages) the matter merits no further response. Feeding the beast is an apt metaphor.

It's good to have a voice of reason around.

On another matter: I'm no good at finding lost minds. But here's the Ming you were looking for:

Happy trails,
David in DC (talk) 04:00, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Remember our long-lived friend (who amazingly, seems to have actually taking his indefinite block to heart)? While this one guy is a rank amateur by comparison, similar lessons apply, especially this one: in general (sad to say) it's too much to hope that the party with whom you are engaged will be convinced; convincing those watching and listening should be your goal. Once you think you've achieved that you can fall silent, leaving your interlocutor to babble on contentedly. EEng (talk) 05:08, 31 July 2013 (UTC) CRASH! Oh dear. That thing wasn't genuine, was it? After all, a Ming is a terrible thing to waste.

Away for a while

I will be away for a while, so please don't be irritated if I don't respond to further comments re Phineas. Good luck with the article! --Mirokado (talk) 18:56, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for all and please let me know when you're back and ready to tackle all this technical minutiae again. Good luck/vacation/travels/whatever. EEng (talk) 20:41, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm back. I've not yet looked at Phineas, but I see elsewhere that you are continuing to have fun with him. --Mirokado (talk) 00:20, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

It seems that one of your first actions after "returning" was to contact me, so I'm flattered, but I wonder if you may regret it.

There's an editor who's all over WP "fixing" things and who regularly gets angry messages like this [50]. In early November he made "correcting" the Gage article a crusade. It started here (and yes, I was ANGRY) and went from there. See also [51] ("Chris's abuse of the noticeboards and community discussion pages is longstanding ... pattern of responding to any discussion that does not immediately yield the result he wants by starting a new discussion elsewhere.")

You'll be interested in this... remember those long, detailed discussions we had about formatting innovations [52]? Well, here's the thanks I (we) get: [53] (Seach the page for minefield to see the idiotic accusation -- presumably you're part of this conspiracy too. I know you warned me about being too technically daring, but you never hinted at this rabid foaming at the mouth!)

There's a very good editor who -- I hope -- will soon see the light about what's going on here. [54]. Keep your fingers crossed. I don't expect you to just believe I'm in the right about all this. Once Tryptofish gets back to me I'll be going over all of it with him, and you may want to follow and/or participate in that.

I'm guessing you don't want to get involved with the content battle -- I have no worries about how it will eventually turn out -- but if you don't mind I'd like to contact you when sanity has been restored. I have some new ideas for the reflist.

Better find some low-stress corner of WP to hang out in to compensate for all this.

EEng (talk) 07:31, 3 January 2014 (UTC) P.S. Before I forget... One of the first things you showed me -- and I was enthusiastic about it -- was how to move the notes out of the article body (where they interrup the main text) to the bottom of the article within the reflist. However, it turns out that if you do that, then it messes up calling out "sources" from within "notes". So I had to move the notes all back to the main article. Also, I got fed up with citationbot doing stupid things so I copy-pasted all the cites back to in-article templates. I don't want you to think I reversed some of your ideas just for the hell of it.

Thank you

For helpful comments here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:06, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Malcolm X

Rumiton (talk) 01:28, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Clueless editors on parade

Notice of Conflict of interest noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard regarding a possible conflict of interest incident in which you may be involved. Thank you. I brought up your removal of referenced information about cheating at Harvard University on the conflict of interest noticeboard.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 20:35, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Good luck with that -- this brings into serious question your understanding of basic WP policy. EEng (talk) 21:16, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Followup: As predicted, the response from multiple editors at COI Noticeboard was variations on What makes this a COI issue? and I see no reason to look at this as a COI issue. Better luck next time. EEng (talk) 03:26, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

cease your non-stop personal attacks

You have been here way too long for me to have to be posting this in your talk page. Your constant antics and belligerence editing the MX wikipage is not acceptable. Consider this a warning. Whatzinaname (talk) 23:31, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Multiple editors in the discussion have pointed out your dickishness, and it's not a personal attack to tell you you're being a dick if you are, in fact, being a dick. So stop being a dick. EEng (talk) 03:26, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

On the content dispute, I am in general agreement with EEng, as I believe that the reliable sources support their point. That being said, I would advise both of you to tone down all snarkish and self-indulgent comments. The dispute is over a very minor point. Tone the comments way down, please. Nothing good will come of it. Thanks. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:52, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

You're right -- I'll lower my voice. Whatsyourface, stop being a dick. EEng (talk) 04:06, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

OK, OK! That was positively the last time. Really. Cross my heart and hope to die. EEng (talk) 04:07, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

You have said this before. [55] Really, quit it, it isn't helpful. I have personally been banned for way less (in fact for nothing at all, but that's a story.) And Whatsy? You too. Starting off by effectively telling editors they are idiots and the article they have worked on is a disgrace is not a good business plan. Rumiton (talk) 04:17, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

But last time I didn't say "positively". EEng (talk) 13:18, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

An editor who starts out by calling Pulitzer Prize winning historian Manning Marable a "moron" has little credibility for complaining about personal attacks shortly thereafter. Unless one considers Marable fair game as a result of his untimely death. After all, it isn't a BLP violation, is it? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:11, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Lest anyone get the wrong idea, it's Whatshisname, not me, you're talking about. 13:18, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Point made, EEng, but you still may be tapdancing on the edge of the abyss. Rumiton (talk) 15:49, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks

for the giggle. Please go back to that thread and imagine which short posting I could barely restrain myself from responding to with "Only what I read about yo momma!" David in DC (talk) 03:49, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid I'm not able to give that my best effort. I'm way over my OSHA-established monthly limit for exposure to boldface as it is. Meanwhile, look what I'm dealing with (though before you say anything... yes, I've been rattling the cages a bit -- I don't have your powers of restraint): Talk:Orbitally Rearranged Monoatomic Elements and WP:Articles for deletion/Orbitally Rearranged Monoatomic Elements. EEng (talk) 04:05, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Next time do something meaningful, don't just revert

There is nothing on any page about the difference between the two, therefore the redirect is blatantly absurd. So instead of just trigger-happy reverting, why don;t you elucidate the rest of mankind about the difference and enrich the WP with your knowledge? Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 12:24, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

For those who are wondering, we're talking about [56].

Why so angry? Your concern with cutting out redirect (per your edit summaries) are contrary to WP:NOTBROKEN. Furthermore, in your first "cutting out" you eliminated the mention of leucotomy completely, which is inappropriate since that was Moniz' own term (at least originally). It's that elimination I was reverting. I didn't explain the difference between leucotomy and lobotomy because my knowledge doesn't extend to what that is, exactly.

As to "elucidating the rest of mankind", please check elucidate in a dictionary, as well as WP:MOSDASH for the difference between hyphens and dashes. You may want to reconsider your self-awarded evaluation, "This user can contribute with a professional level of English" [57].

EEng (talk) 15:51, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

1. I know the difference between hyphens and dashes, and yes, I inadvertently used the hyphen, accustomed to my auto-correct in Word, which I have programmed to change the hyphen followed by a space into an m-dash.
2. I know what lobotomy is, leucotomy I was not familiar with, therefore I clicked to read about. Guess what? Waste of time, as it took me to lobotomy, which - as already said - I know what it is. Therefore, quoting from the project page that you so kindly pointed me to, "It may be appropriate to make this kind of change if the hint that appears when a user hovers over the link is misleading."
3. You also claim that there is a difference between lobotomy and leucotomy. It puzzles me that in various articles worked on by hundreds of people nobody has ever had the inclination to address this issue.
4. I do contribute with a professional level of English. But my blood boils when people prefer to revert rather then fixing what they see wrong. So yes, I used "elucidate" where I meant to use "enlighten".
5. Especially when dealing with people who should know better, but just want to have the last word - very superior indeed - https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?search=%22%E2%80%8Bknown+better%22&title=Special%3ASearch and https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&profile=default&search=%22%E2%80%8Bbetter+known+%22&fulltext=Search ... big difference ...

Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 01:59, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty of numbering your points above for ease of reference.

1. You're still having trouble with hyphens vs. dashes, as seen (conveniently enough) in your point 2.

2. I am unable to apprehend what you're trying to say here. Did you only just now discover that leucotomy redirects to lobotomy? And hovering over leucotomy gives the hint Leucotomy -- redirects to Lobotomy -- Lobotomy is a neurosurgical procedure... What's misleading about that?

3. Contrary to what you say, this point has been raised: Talk:Lobotomy/Archive_1#Leucotomy_is_DIFFERENT_from_Lobotomy.

There is indeed a difference between the two, but it's difficult to explain (and in some ways has never been fully elucidated historically). I earlier pled more ignorance than actually is the case, so let me explain a bit. If you look through the article you'll see that the term leucotomy predominates until the start of the discussion of Freeman & Watts, when lobotomy starts being used instead (mostly). This corresponds to the very rough division between Moniz' use of leucotomy (for his hole-in-the-skull technique), and lobotomy for Freeman's transorbital technique, and some back-and-forth use of both terms for intermediate techniques tried by Freeman & Watts, and others, in between. Since most of the article's content deals with social and theoretical points largely independent of the particular technique, it doesn't interfere with the exposition, which is why I've never worked up the courage to tackle this in the article.

4. I didn't revert rather than fix -- the revert was the completely appropriate fix. You inapppropriately eliminated the term leucotomy [58] and I reverted, which fixed what you did. That you subsequently reasserted your "eliminate redirects" preoccupation, and I haven't reverted that as well, doesn't mean there was something else that needed fixing -- it's just what floats your boat, apparently, and I don't see any point in spoiling your fun.

5. As seen here [59], you combine significant confusion on English usage with certainty that you're right -- a deadly combination. In fact your post above also shows serious deficiencies, but it's not my purpose to embarrass you.

5. You seem to think a hit-count-search for two different word orderings shows that one phrasing is as good as another. That's ridiculous, since the issue was which phrasing is better in the specific text under discussion -- not on average in various usage situations Wikipeida-wide.

I don't have to have the last word -- you go ahead and have it instead. It may help bring your blood down from boiling point. By the way -- did you know that Aristotle thought that the brain's only function was to cool the blood? (This turns out to be true only in some people, of course.) EEng (talk) 06:10, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Units

Re [60]: same thing, right? The real question is: 48 solar hours or 48 sidereal hours? NE Ent 14:10, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Just as an hour at a fun party feels like 15 minutes while an hour at a tedious faculty meeting feels like 5 hours, an hour at ANI feels like your life is flashing before your eyes while an hour not at ANI feels like a day in the countryside. If that helps. EEng (talk) 15:07, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Costco run

I searched and searched the aisles, and they were fresh out of troll food. So, on to other ventures. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:22, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Why not bake some nice Troll House cookies? EEng (talk) 14:10, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Phineas Gage "remaining"

Like it. Ward20 (talk) 08:58, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Amazing it's taken so long -- been fretting about that sentence for ages! Strive ever upwards, O Wikipedians, be it just a word at at time! EEng (talk) 09:20, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Another clueless editor drops in to visit

Hello, I'm ChrisGualtieri. I noticed that you made a comment that didn't seem very civil, so it has been removed. Wikipedia needs people like you and me to collaborate, so it's one of our core principles to interact with one another in a polite and respectful manner. If you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:58, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Do not refactor my comments again and do not make snide personal attacks. Also, do not call editors "nazi"s, because they removed 1900 characters of this.[61] Comment on the edit not the editor. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:00, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I didn't call another editor a Nazi, but rather a MOS Nazi -- that is, an often ignorant, always arrogant, self-appointed knowitall who finds salve for his insecure ego by pretending that enforcement of increasingly minute and arbitrary rules, over consideration of what looks good and reads well, benefits the project.

As to you, do not fuck with others' comments on article talk pages, as you did -- I've restored my comments and stand by them. You made a run-on, borderline unintelligible defense of certain actions of yours; I responded with "Everything you're saying is nonsense", followed by a bullet-list explication of why everything you had said was nonsense. [62] If you don't like that, then stop posting nonsense.

As already pointed out elsewhere, you spend a great deal of time removing, and issuing warnings about, angry comments directed at you by other editors, e.g. on your talk page. Ever think about why that is?

EEng (talk) 04:44, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Warning

Making personal attacks and deliberately making up things you know nothing about to attack editors is a problem. You have a massive COI and your ownership is problematic enough, but making up lies is not acceptable. Some misunderstanding completely unrelated to your issue has no place being on the talk page and next time I will report it to an administrator because your hostile attacks of "MOS Nazi" or any type of "Nazi" unacceptable under WP:NPA. Do you understand? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:05, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

• Re next time I will report it to an administrator because your hostile attacks of "MOS Nazi" or any type of "Nazi" unacceptable under WP:NPA:

(For those playing along at home here's the edit summary [63] Chris is so up in arms about.) I could change my wording from "MOS Nazis" to "bossy schoolmarmish MOS-haunting tin-ear-for-language knowitalls" -- would you prefer that? Anyway, if you don't recognize yourself in those descriptions, what does any of this have to do with you? And if you do, then how is it a personal attack to describe you in a manner which you agree is accurate?

In any event, here's what I predict an administrator would say about all this:

• First, he or she will tell me that -- though it's understandable I was pissed off at you for making a complete mess of an article and then, when challenged, posting a list of nonsense justifications for what you'd done, but falling strangely silent when those justifications were answered -- I should have heeded the better angels of my nature and moderated my condemnation of your absurd waste of my time and your own time.
• Second, he or she will counsel you to stop being a crybaby. You fucked up the article, wouldn't admit it, and almost a month later are still sulking because you were called out for it.

• As to Making personal attacks and deliberately making up things you know nothing about to attack editors is a problem: What the fuck are you talking about? What can "making up things you know nothing about" even mean?'
• And Some misunderstanding completely unrelated to your issue has no place being on the talk page: What the fuck are you talking about here, either?
• As to massive COI and ownership... well, I'll deal with those laughable ideas on the article talk page.

Do you understand? EEng (talk) 06:39, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Question

Why are you being rude and spiteful? I'm trying to work with you - this is not your article to rule over and I'd much fancy being able to read the actual text with more than 13 characters smashed between two large images and other formatting and size issues. Why will you not discuss this civilly? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:50, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

You're confusing ownership and stewardship -- see WP:OAS. As to "formatting and size issues" (and "13 characters") please post a description of them at the article Talk, in a way others can understand what you're talking about. I suspect you've got zoom set high and/or text size (if you're using IE) set to "Largest" or something. EEng (talk) 16:13, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps you'll like this [64] better, though it has its own drawbacks. EEng (talk) 16:35, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

It is better, but your assumptions of what I am using is wrong. I'm not going to argue with you about this; it's why I've purposely avoided responding to your borderline diatribes because its not going to resolve the situation. You are emotionally and academically invested in the page and it is only out of respect for actual experts on Wikipedia (we have too few) that I don't want any dramatics. I mean no offense and I hope you understand my position. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:45, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Sure, whatever. "I'm not going to argue with you about this" -- you don't argue (or discuss) anything. What you do, as just seen, is complain vaguely ("formatting and size issues") but then never explain what you're talking about; you've been doing this for a month without making a single suggestion for anything to change. If telling yourself you're "avoiding responding to your borderline diatribes because its not going to resolve the situation" makes you feel better, fine, but the the important thing is that you've decided to move on to wasting others' time instead of mine. Call it selfish if you want. You're practically the Wikipedia poster-boy for the Dunning–Kruger effect. EEng (talk) 04:10, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

You made an improvement to the rendered page - it is not my preference, but it is better. So why would I need to reiterate or argue after its resolution? I see you have asked for clarification on my arguments - and normally I'd be happy to explain further, but you don't want to listen to me. You are an expert on Gage, while I dislike the significant conflict of interest generated by extensively using both you and your co-author's work, I respect your position. If I wanted to be a thorn in your side, trust me, I could, but we both have better things to do than indulge in dramatics. That is why I asked you stop the personal attacks, but I've realized by not responding in kind or getting upset gives more time to you to improve the content. So long as you seek to improve Wikipedia, even just this one page, I'll respect your stewardship. If you really want to make a fight, WP:COIN and a few other places would be a good proving ground to see if those "MOS Nazis" could explain in more detail why your page presents significant problems with its excessive and unnecessary usage of various templates. Your call. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:13, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

For the 100th time:

• go to the article's talk page and post a concrete suggestion or description of a problem (e.g. specifically describe the "excessive and unnecessary usage of various templates" you refer to above -- I genuinely would like to know about any potential problems);
• or go somewhere to complain about my COI, or my attacks, or whatever;
• or just go away.

But do not keep saying here that you've identified problems with the article but aren't going to explain them. It's ridiculous. EEng (talk) 21:53, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

December 2013

This is your last warning. The next time you make personal attacks on other people, as you did at Talk:Phineas Gage, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. Comment on content, not on fellow editors. This is unacceptablePer WP:WIAPA: "Criticisms of, or references to, personal behavior in an inappropriate context, like on a policy or article talk page, or in an edit summary, rather than on a user page or conflict resolution page." You have been warned three times before about this. This is your final warning about it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:28, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

January 2014

Please do not remove article improvement tags without improving the article. --John (talk) 07:56, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Article improvement tags are properly removed when they don't apply in the first place, and I note that, with essentially no changes to the article, they have been repeatedly removed by other editors. EEng (talk) 05:42, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Gage info

I've been digging around in the archives for a few hours. I've found so many copies and different stories that are not coming up in Macmillan 2000. It's messing with me. Maybe its new information, maybe its junk, but I've found several different dates and details for Gage's history and that of the immediate area... most puzzling is the sideshow matter. Which I think something is off on... and I think you know what I am talking about. Care to fill me in now? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:14, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Chris, I've never thought that you were anything but well-meaning, if terribly, terribly misguided. However, several times I've decided that trying to get you to understand how completely mixed up your ideas are was a hopeless cause. But each time I somehow decided again that maybe you could be saved. Just a minute ago I was about to hit <save> on the most scathing, sarcastic, humiliating denigration of you imaginable, and here comes this post from you. It's a sign, I guess.

I think I may regret this, but nonetheless I'm going to do it... Do you have Skype? If so I'll email you a Skype ID you can call me on. (Or email me yours.) I think things may go better if we talk like actual people, instead of character names in the Wikipedia Multiplayer Roleplaying Game. EEng (talk) 06:23, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Just realized ... I need to Skype to you because if you Skype to me you'll wake someone else up (long story). So send me either your Skype id or a phone #. What's the worst that can happen? EEng (talk) 06:30, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't use Skype. Sorry. Well, this makes all my searching pretty much useless. I did find minor mentions on things all over the place, even tracking down details on the latter Phineas Gage and his life in a somewhat successful attempt to cover the business matter. Nothing concrete. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:11, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, it's late anyway, so perhaps another time. I'm confused ... what does the link have to do with your searching? And what "later Phineas Gage" (there are lots of people named Phineas Gage, believe it or not -- some alive today)? What "business matter"? EEng (talk) 07:30, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

The paternal grandfather, Phineas Gage. Found a mention about when he operated the mill and our Phineas Gage would have been about 5 then. Also found his address and some other tidbits. I'm assuming that you know all this though. I couldn't find any mention of it in Macmillan 2000 and I spent some hours searching the Barnum details and ended up finding some minor things before finding what you already know. Or what I assume you already know. I found over two dozen newspaper reports that variously spell his name and give differing details. Perhaps on Thursday we can talk - I am still horrendously sick and I sound terrible with a bug I caught. If I knew where to look, I could make a more productive scan at the libraries, but I don't know if my efforts are needed at this point. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:17, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Um, I still a bit confused about why you're calling the paternal grandfather "the later Phineas Gage", but anyway... We have over 10,000 documents somehow related to Gage or his family or people around him or doctors / schoolteachers / ministers in places he might have been, or ... -- mostly dead ends. I used to have it all in my head but lately been concentrating on the South America aspects so my memory is a bit fuzzy on the older research.

Anyway, as I recall Grampa Phineas ran a mill -- there was a court case re a dispute over a mill pond or something. I even have his will. So whatever you're looking at could be stuff I already have, or not. Every little bit helps.

You mentioned "archives" / "library" -- Which? Where? I assume you're using an electronic database of some kind -- which one? I hope you're feeling better. EEng (talk) 21:01, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• I wrote "latter" but yeah, bad choice of words. 10k documents. Well that reduces me to probably 0 unique documents. The chroniclingamerica.loc.gov is where I found some odd mentions. One of interest.[65] I found some interesting sketches in a few places that come from the exhibition of the skull, looks like they didn't bookmark right, but I assume you found them. Was interesting because it compared the woodcut to skull side by side. I live west of you, not by much, but I do happen to be in area that was well connected and a bit preserve happy and had a booming trade at the time. It is likely that documents survived and are accessible, my own library while small has a complete set of some rare books including several from the 17th century just lying around. If I know what exactly I'd be looking for, it'd probably help turn up something. If I waited a month to get Macmillan's book, obviously I'm not afraid of a little legwork. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:25, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
  • By the way, its the way in which that article is written stands out to me. It takes very faithfully from Harlow, but the date of death is listed as May 18, 1861 which is rather bizarre. Do you happen to have a copy of that Boston Med Journal from April 1869 or that pamphlet? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:33, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
    • Googled it, "The Boston Medical and Surgical Journal, Volume 80" page 116 and 117 carries this. Now, I'm not great on interpreting this. Perhaps you can enlightening me, as this seems to be an additional statement from Harlow after the 1868 publication. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:42, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

As you've figured out the piece you linked is a reprint of a piece from the Boston Medical and Surgical Journal, which however is not (as you say) any later statement from Harlow, but just a review of Harlow (1868) (listed, BTW, here [66]). As often happens the reviewer was in a hurry -- Harlow 1868 says that on May 18 Gage "went home to his mother" and died May 21, but the review gives May 18 as the date of death instead. Stuff like that happens all the time.

If your library has 17th-century books just lying around there's something terribly, terribly wrong there. EEng (talk) 09:04, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Coffee fueled parody, at WP:talk MoS/D&N

I must thank you for one of the best (and funniest) scenarios of Wikipedia editing I've read. I'm going to be chuckling all day. The cleanup you're doing on MoS is making it actually useful, and I thank you for that as well. I should probably appreciate that more, but it doesn't make me giggle with joy. htom (talk) 15:52, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Error

I think you mistakenly clicked thank instead of undo. 8^> —sroc 💬 09:02, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, well ;P to you too, buster! But isn't yr Okt-fest example still ambiguous? Might the reader not mistakenly conclude that it lasts 1 yr + a few days? Assuming we're past that, what do you think about "Holy Week 2014 begins April 13 and ends April 19" -- conserves column width! EEng (talk) 09:11, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

True. The example looks good, although I'm not sure what "Holy Week" is or if it would ever be called "Holy Week 2014". I intentionally chose an example in the past (so it needn't change tense in due course) and that spans two months, otherwise someone might get the idea of re-writing it as "from 13 to 19 April" or something. What about "In 2013, Ramadan started 10 July and ended 7 August"? —sroc 💬 09:28, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

When faced with a term or phrase (such as Holy Week) with which I'm unfamiliar, I often think to myself, "If only there were some way to answer such questions using calculating machines... A world-wide information storage and retrieval system of some kind... Perhaps computers linked using a kind of telegraphic communication system... with a typewriter-like way entering queries... and some kind of display device by which the machine would present answers...."

Well, last night I decided to stop dreaming and start doing. Click here for a demonstration. Crude, I know, but it illustrates the general idea. I don't think there's any money in it, though. Too bad.

You're right that crossing months is better, and in the spirit of inclusionism (if that's a word) perhaps we should go with Ramadan. More comments there. EEng (talk) 16:36, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Please sign with four tildes

Please make sure you sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~). I've had to add your name on two separate occasions where you only left a time stamp (five tildes).[67][68] These conversations can be hard enough to follow as it is. Thanks. —sroc 💬 14:17, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't guarantee that I'll never err on that score again. If I do you can post a complaint at the WP:AdministratorsWrongNumberOfTildesNoticeboard. EEng (talk) 14:48, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)I hate that noticeboard. I think that every user on wikipedia has been there at least fifteen times. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 16:08, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

You must be the most desperate and lonely talk page stalker there is, to be hanging around my talkpage. EEng (talk) 06:02, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Geez, just a friendly reminder. —sroc 💬 16:25, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

I know, sroc, but think about it. As seen on this very page I've been editing for about 6 years. Likely this one-two punch of typographical irresponsibility was some fluke of fatigue or situational distraction, in which case there's little point mentioning it. Or perhaps it's a longstanding habit -- but then no doubt I've been scolded about this before over the years, and further exhortation won't help. (For the record first explanation is the correct one.) So was it really worth the trouble of posting here and pasting in two links to prove that I did it twice and me getting the little red notification and the clicking on the orange YOU HAVE NEW MESSAGES and reading what you said and responding and then my poor talk page stalker having what few brain cells he has remaining taken up by this and ... You see my point?

A far more sensible way to handle this would be to say, "Hmm... These discussions are so complicated it's a good bet EEng looks at the revision history to see what's been posted in which threads. So as I add his username to this post he signed incorrectly, I'll include a little message in the edit summary, sometin' like Hey, EEng, can ya' be a bit more careful to oount your tildes -- I got better things to do than sign your posts for you! with maybe a little wink icon.

Imagine how much less trouble that would be, though of course at the risk I might not see your message in the edit summary. But that really wouldn't be a disaster.

EEng (talk) 06:34, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot you would see the ping when I added your name on the talk page, so I thought I'd drop a brief note to make sure you saw it the second time. (I would have thought you might have paid a little more attention after the first time.) Anyway, it's not a big deal, as you say, so was this really worth another diatribe? I'd written 3 lines on this to your 16, so who's building on the molehills? A simple "Noted" or "Saw that" would have done. —sroc 💬 07:12, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Actually, my psychiatrist is away so I've run out of diatribe -- pharmacist refuses to dispense more without a prescription. EEng (talk) 07:25, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

John Harvard (clergyman)

Nothing you ever did or said regarding the use of "emigrate" or "immigrate" made any sense to me. [69] Sweetmoniker (talk) 08:43, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

---

Maybe this will make sense to you. You asserted, with palpable condescension, that immigrated from and emigrated to are blunders [70]:

There is no possible level of appropriateness to debate on this subject. One "immigrates to" and "emigrates from" Consult any grammarian source if in doubt.

Though no possible level of appropriateness to debate on doesn't recommend you as a wordsmith, I would never deny my own fallibility. Thus I double-checked and... guess what? Your prissy 7th-grade English teacher Mrs. Snodgrass was wrong, and my warm and wonderful 8th-grade teacher Mr. Dunkum was right (hi, Mr. Dunkum, wherever you are!): one may emigrate from or emigrate to or (if one prefers) immigrate from, or to, as well.

You've been offered three compelling arguments for why this cannot be but so:

• Argument logical [71]: Under your theory this sentence is verboten --

He emigrated from England to America.

because (you say) one can't emigrate to somewhere. And the following is also a no-no --

He immigrated to America from England.

because (according to you) one can't immigrate from somewhere. So, presumably, you would have this --

He emigrated from England and immigrated to America.

inflicted on the reader, and that's ridiculous. QED.

• Argument empirical general [72]: As seen here [73] examples of emigrated to are thick on the ground in the opinions of the Supreme Court of the United States, the Supreme Courts of sundry states of said United States, and the esteemed and honorable Courts Supreme (or other highest courts) of numerous other jurisdictions and sovereignties. High court justices are usually considered exemplary expositors.

And as if that's not enough, no less luminous a legal legend than the great Epaphroditus Peck quoted the digest of a Massachusetts court's opinion thus:

Refusal by an English woman, whose husband had emigrated to the United States and had obtained employment here, to follow him to this country when he reqeuested her to come and sent her money for her passage, was held to be desertion by her, it being found that she had no other reason for her refusal that reluctance to leave her native land. Franklin v. Franklin, 190 Mass. 349; 4 L.R.A. (N.S) 145. See the note to [etc etc and so on and so forth...]

Now, you're not really planning to climb into the ring with Epaphroditus Peck, are you?

• Argument empirical specifical  [74]: Emmanuel College's tablet "In Memory of John Harvard A.M." describes the man as "A member of Emmanuel College who emigrated to Massachusetts Bay...", and later describes itself as "erected by Harvard men ... in the College which fostered his beneficent spirit." Since as is well known Harvard men think they're always right, and Emmanuel men pretty much are always right, this wording (passed by both) must surely be considered dispositive.

The true difference between imm- and em- is a subtle one of emphasis and narrative point of view. These --

• John lost his best friend when Bill emigrated to America.
• Many of these new immigrants to America had left good friends behind.
• Those emigrating from France found it relatively easy to obtain exit papers; those from Germany, less so.
• American authorities scrutinized those immigrating from France less carefully than those from Germany.

-- are all fine and all subtly different, and would be irreparably crippled if twisted to fit your Procrustean bed of linguistic over-prescription.

EEng (talk) 06:14, 29 January 2014 (UTC) P.S. The link in your post above proves only that emigrate from is acceptable, not that emigrate to is unacceptable

Telegrams from near and far

The very model of a Modern Emigrantical

Mr. Dunkum would be right proud, not to mention Sir William Schwenck Gilbert. "Procrustean bed" indeed. I doff my specifical QED to you, dear EEng. – Jonesey95 (talk) 07:49, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Not everyone shares your high opinion, Mr. Jonesey (assuming you weren't being facetious). Aside from ol' CG (abovebelow) we have this effusive praise: "so snobbish and pigheaded that I could only make it through three sentences until I couldn't force myself to continue." [75] Noting, however, that it was this critic himself who wrote the bulk of my post's opening (i.e. "There is no possible level of appropriateness to debate on this subject ... Consult any grammarian source if in doubt") I must complement the gentleman on his candid self-evaluation. EEng (talk) 04:25, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I could not have been farther (further?) from Facetious, wherever that may be. Mesmerized was more like it. Gobsmacked. Enthralled. I smile enigmatically at you, and my eyes follow you about your chambers. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:02, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

My attorney will need your address for the restraining order. It would be best if you cooperate. EEng (talk) 05:54, 30 January 2014 (UTC) P.S. Many people leaving Facetious find themselves in Synecdoche (and of course when I say Synecdoche I really mean the greater Synecdoche area).

Personal attack? You decide! [Section heading not supplied by ChrisGualtieri[

Did you really... and I mean that... need to spend all that time making such a post? Its your time, but I think some of this is a bit ironic. Glad to see you are still floating about. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:45, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

How much time do you think it took me? EEng (talk) 07:16, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

In any event, it took about one Masterpiece Theatre episode. (This current post cost about 1/2 a Modern Family.) You like to mass-update article classes, I like to warn off stubbornly misinformed know-it-alls.

WARNING! Text inside constitutes, according to one editor, a personal attack!
Chief among our differences, CG, is that you seem to think that beautiful portraits (or fine Wikipedia articles) are created by dutifully coloring between lines set out for us by our betters, instead of considering what will please the eye or nourish the intellect. Perhaps you would have asked da Vinci, "Did you really need to spend all that time making such a picture?"?

EEng (talk) 04:25, 30 January 2014 (UTC) P.S. What is it that's ironic

I'd watch those personal attacks and bearing false witness because I don't tolerate such abuse sitting down. Your comment shows your ignorance and folly - but if you take such pride in burning bridges, far be it from me to tell you that you've burnt the last with I. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 00:40, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Far be it from me to tell you what I just told you.

Second on the list of differences between us is that you think everything's a personal attack. You certainly don't take anything lying down -- you get right in there and issue stern warnings! [76][77] Some of them are even "last" warnings! [78] And "bearing false witness" -- what... gonna report me for violating WP:TENCOMMANDMENTS?

Re "Far be it from me to tell you that you've burnt the last [bridge] with I"... Is that meant to be some kind of brain teaser? It's like a kid saying, "I'm not gonna tell you that mom has milk and cookies in the kitchen."

Anyway, that's "burnt the last with me," Einstein EEng (talk) 05:20, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Humor…on Wikipedia?

File:Jokey-Smurf-Gift-256.gif

This edit was a joke, right?

• ["Good, gooooood!! My plan is working puhrrrrfectly!"]

I'm not the best at recognizing humor (I'm from the Midwest).

Please accept this modest gift (to your right).

Cheers, startswithj (talk) 22:43, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. However, due to terrorist threats against local bridges, you won't mind if I x-ray it first? EEng (talk) 05:20, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Followup: you were very modest, startswithj, about your humor-detecting talents. But take heart, there's someone even more humor-impaired than you apparently imagine yourself to be, as seen in the next section. So feel yourself lucky -- as the old proverb says, "I cried because I had no WiFi, until I met a man who had no laptop." EEng (talk)

Note: The author of the below subsequently removed it. However, I'm electing to repost it here as a permanent reminder to myself of how serious can be the sufferings of those afflicted by profound humor impairment. The assertion that my phrase "terrorist threats against local bridges" -- just above, next to another editor's joking "exploding gift" gif -- actually "insinuates" that the text to which it links is a "terrorist schtick" (odd image, that -- better check your dictionary, CG) suggests a poor prognosis.

Warning

Misappropriation and changing the context of any editors text is specifically not allowed. Do not do this EEng. You've lied and put words in my mouth and you are being abusive. Next time, I will take it to arbcom do not dare put any insinuation with terrorism to my comments. You understand?! You've insulted my work and you've lied all it one post, but then you alter my text and flow and chalk it up to some terrorist schtick. I think you owe me an apology. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:35, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

EEng (talk) 06:25, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

P.S. CG, I'd appreciate your telling me where I altered your "text and flow" or "lied and put words in [your] mouth". (Since there was no section heading I made it "Personal attack? You decide!" -- and I've now clarified that it's not your heading, if that's what's bothering you.)

Later (10:05, 2 February 2014 (UTC)): The patient exhibits a continued preoccupation with removing my post, above, quoting his earlier "warning".[79][80][81] Of course it's best for his recovery that he face the consequences of his actions, rather than run from them.

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:04, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Ah, Legobot! —sroc 💬 06:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Coals to Newcastle, I was thinking. (The link is for the benefit of others watching, not you of course.) EEng (talk) 10:11, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

A friendly note

Stop refactoring and reinserting my deleted text, you are violating the talk page guidelines. I am well within my right to remove my own comments and not have them altered, refactored or reinserted by you to mock. You are being hypocritical because you continue to refactor my text and you scream about "not fucking with my posts". Now calm down - you are only adding fuel to the fire. You've continually altered text and you edit war over nothing. You don't see me constantly bringing up your comment that almost got you indeffed for personal attacks; treat others as you want to be treated and you'll find your interactions on Wikipedia to be more pleasant. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:19, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

For those who may be wondering, we're talking about the text removed here [82], which can be seen in context here [83].'

Sorry, I missed this until now. Quoting a post of yours, giving full context, is not refactoring, whether you subsequently deleted it or not. (And in quoting it I noted that you had deleted it.) EEng (talk) 05:42, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Query

Hi EEng. Chris has raised with me the edit you made here. Would you stand by this edit and its like? I do share his concerns with the standard of your interactions. I'd prefer to sort it out with you directly, but if not I would need to go to a central noticeboard, so please consider your response carefully. --John (talk) 17:34, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

I stand by it fully. If you can explain what the hell he's talking about, including the silent shift, from the beginning of the thread to the end, in what's being demanded, please do so -- there. EEng (talk) 05:42, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Courtesy notice

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.--John (talk) 07:09, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for extending so much courtesy, but unfortunately I was up the Amazon while all this was going on. EEng (talk) 05:42, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Specific units table

Welcome back! Just a query. In these edits to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Specific units, you merged the blank "Comments" column for the bit, byte, bit per second and byte per second entries. Is there any reason you didn't do the same for other adjacent entries without comments, namely, knot and metre, or pound per square inch and tonne? —sroc 💬 22:18, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

I dunno. It seemed like too much trouble to merge all the adjacent empties (and doing so would create a lot of potential for rowspan mess-ups), so I drew the line where the entire "category" (Information) has empty comments. My motivation was to eliminate the unpleasant visual effect of all those parallel lines blocked together and that's the most important example of it. If you want to extend that to the rest, or revert my one merge, that's fine. EEng (talk) 05:42, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

I quite like the visual cleanliness, but we should be consistent — both within the table and across tables generally. It actually works well (at least on my browser: Firefox 27.0.1 for Mac OS X) to omit the final cell in a row when it's not needed; it has the same visual appearance without the messy rowspan parameters that are prone to tripping editors up. I'll give that a go but feel free to revert if it doesn't look right. —sroc 💬 12:00, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

The reason I didn't do that is that IE 11 interprets the lack of the final, empty value as "on this row, that column isn't even there" and expresses that by omitting the right-hand, final vertical line for that cell. In other word, instead of

-------------------
| val | val |     |
------+-----+------
| val | val | val |
------+-----+------
| val | val |     |
-------------------

you get

-------------
| val | val |  
------+-----+------
| val | val | val |
------+-----+------
| val | val |
-------------

(Here I'm assuming your browser renders this ascii art the same as mine does.) To me that looks a bit odd but better than all those empty cells, but I fear you may get blowback. I suggest you leave it as you have it and brace for reaction.

So you see, we're friends after all. But don't think you've heard the last of me on that stupid year-comma thing. EEng (talk) 14:14, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Ah, yes, I see the ASCII art. (How'd you do that?) My browser shows as the first case, but I feared some other browsers would show as the second case (or something else weird). Let's see what happens. (grabs popcorn) —sroc 💬 14:53, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

If the more than 50% of the characters in a block of text are hyphen, plus, or pipe, the browser detects ascii art and renders it that way.

More information
Ha ha! Just kidding! If you go back and look, each line begins with a blank. For some bizarre reason lost to history that triggers that stark monospace rendering.

EEng (talk) 15:13, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Ha! —sroc 💬 15:18, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Talk page comment

Not sure if you realise that your edit at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers inserted your reply in the middle of Makyen's comment, which I believe is poor form: your reply should be below, after Makyen's signature, to avoid confusion about who wrote what. I suggest you move your reply.

Sorry to always be harping on the negatives instead of admiring all the good stuff you've been doing! I get the sense that you sometimes seem to be in a rush to post your changes and then having to repeatedly edit again and again to patch things up, and there's always the risk that someone will revert, edit, or start a conversation while you're still perfecting your work. Maybe it would be beneficial if you tinkered in the sandbox before posting your finished product for all to enjoy, which might make us all more inclined to praise your work rather than criticise works in progress. I digress. Keep up the good work! —sroc 💬 14:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Herb C & Counterculture

Are you concerned with semantics? I was referencing the fact that HC's terms became associated with the language of the counterculture. Please share your thoughts and deeper rationale for reversion. Best wishesLearner001 (talk) 16:17, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Adding "counterculture" injects a slight hint of limitation of his language contributions. Since the two examples that immediately follow are beatnik and hippie I think the counterculture aspect is already well illustrated. EEng (talk) 16:33, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Where is the counterculture aspect well illustrated? It's not a big deal, and I'm no expert on Caen. I'm just trying to provide historical linkage for some of the terms. Learner001 (talk) 16:49, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Like I said, "the two examples that immediately follow are beatnik and hippie" -- doesn't that illustrate the counterculture aspect of Caen's language influence? EEng (talk) 17:38, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Going back to your first note, I can see the point of not doing anything that might be seen as "limiting" his much larger contributions to a few remarks. I'll come up with something and run it by you. Best wishes Learner001 (talk) 20:29, 3 May 2014 (UTC).

1 for 3

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you removed "the definite article", you added a negative byte count pointing to the unlucky number 13. And mentioned it in your edit summary. After a 133 byte edit. At 22:23. Such links are almost always unintended, since numerology is merely a special relationship between a number and some coinciding events.

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving any weird vertical spacing (should it occur), follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, InedibleHulk (talk) 03:03, May 4, 2014 (UTC)

I'm having difficulty digesting this Inedible post. EEng (talk) 03:10, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. Just thought if you'd been the type to believe in the hoo-ha, you'd have liked the heads up. I had to ask a Wikifriend to revert mine. It's an awkward request. If you run into any bad luck, hope for sevens. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:30, May 4, 2014 (UTC)

Hey, what do you know? Seven minutes between my post and your reply, and an inverted 23 here. You'll be fine. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:32, May 4, 2014 (UTC)

Believe in the hoo-hah? Please, not this again! EEng (talk) 03:42, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

But how else could Stan ever hope to land Wendy? InedibleHulk (talk) 03:56, May 4, 2014 (UTC)

This is where I begin to wish Wikipedia was WP:CENSORED. EEng (talk) 04:10, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Sorry about that. Have a good one! InedibleHulk (talk) 04:16, May 4, 2014 (UTC)

Tweaked your MOSNUM edit

Hi, I hope this is fine. Tony (talk) 06:01, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

It's fine, of course. I hope my snapping at you a while back didn't make you uneasy about dealing with me, but please consider the context. Over the last six months I've invested many hours reorganizing and massaging MOS (especially Dates & Numbers) to make it more usable and, to my amazement, have received almost no resistance. (Nor have I received much appreciation, but I can live with that.) Except in a very few places which I carefully call out, my intention is only to improve the presentation without changing the meaning. So when, in one tiny corner, I unintentionally did change the meaning, I was a bit miffed to have the C-word waved in my face as if I was trying to pull a fast one. [84] I recognized, even then, that you likely didn't mean it that way, but MOS is such an unpleasant place that I think we should all bend over backwards to keep the tone as pleasant as possible. EEng (talk) 15:14, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

No problem. The removal of that "you can" appeared to make it mandatory, which was a bit sudden (and undesirable I think', without having talked through the implications). MOS is powerful, both for on- and off-wiki English. It purports to be a professional authority, and has that capacity (probably it is that already), so it's not surprising that there's tension on a wiki. Cheers. Tony (talk) 07:00, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

I completely agree the change was inappropriate -- I just wish more consideration had been given to the fact that it was apparently unintentional.

If you really think that people are using WP MOS as a style guide outside of WP, I think we need a little disclaimer on it somewhere saying that, while anyone's free to use it of course, it has many details peculiar to the needs of WP and issues that arise there, and which may not be appropriate for general application elsewhere i.e. a camel is a horse designed by a committee. EEng (talk) 07:05, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

You have no idea how that last statement really is.... better choice of words than I used as well. I'll need to remember that for next time MOS dramas erupt over the addition of the number of auxiliary parameters or data granularity without considering the more meta aspects. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:40, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Sorry!

Reading on my iPad and did not mean to revert you! Deepest apologies! Kafka Liz (talk) 01:28, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Oh! Too bad I didn't get this sooner -- the unmanned killer drone has already been dispatched. EEng (talk) 01:33, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Luckily I was able to get the killer drone recalled. Sorry if it gave you a fright.

I'd be interested to know what you think of the article. EEng (talk) 01:35, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Poor Lizzie died of fright, but I, Kafka Jane, can give a close reading if you wish. Overall, I'd say it looks damn good. Kafka Liz (talk) 11:25, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Hey you! Comeer!

I've updated the Jack and Ed Biddle DYK. I'm willing to pass it as is, but I proposed a couple of ALTs as well. I really think that the story's about them and the hook should reflect that. Ive seen counter-examples, but I'm not sure the buried lead works in this example (now, if you get a chance, Bright Shining Lie... THAT'S how you bury a lead!) Maury Markowitz (talk) 13:10, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for taking an interest -- it had been so long I'd forgotten about this. I disagree about the hook though -- see the nom page. EEng (talk) 16:00, 29 May 2014 (UTC) P.S. From your userpage I think you may be interested in [85] if you're not already familiar with it.

DYKUpdateBot

I don't know what the rest of the thread was about, but I was referencing this: [86] Belle (talk) 12:27, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Does that mean ice cream has no bones? EEng (talk) 12:30, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Arbitrary breaks

By the way, doing that means that no-one reads the previous sections. Just saying. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:10, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

I read them. (Sorry, I couldn't resist the joke, and I know that EEng has a sense of humor.) --Tryptofish (talk) 20:20, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

pSYCHOTIC bREAK

GOODBYE, CRUEL WORLD! EEng (talk) 20:22, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

TL;dr

I just want to say how great all the previous sections were. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:23, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Blame the bot

F*****g DYKUpdateBot bot bot. See WP:NOTCENSORED. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:27, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Margaret Rodgers

While the term "secret weapon" is good in the media, it's overkill in the section about honours and accolades. There is already a quotation from Sandeman regarding her association with the media, in the relevant section of the article. The second quotation from Sandeman is not "media focussed", but can be seen in a general way. Margaret's influence went a lot further than presenting the diocese well in the media. A great deal of her influence was behind the scenes. Amandajm (talk) 06:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I have just discovered that you used the quote to create a hook. No. The positioning of that quote is an anti-climax to the archbishop's statement, whereas, without the "secret weapon" quote, Sandeman's quote complements and summarises the archbishop's statement in a manner that the archbishop himself could not do. Amandajm (talk) 10:38, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

We don't need "positions" -- it was just a suggestion. EEng (talk) 11:33, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Manistee Watch Company

Would you consider re-reviewing as there has been several ALTs submitted. I was hoping for a tick. Thanks.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 18:29, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

I'll ring the reviewer's Belle. EEng (talk) 18:38, 26 June 2014 (UTC) P.S. You are forgiven for removing the image. See [87]

You are a funny man. I missed that one all together.......--Doug Coldwell (talk) 18:48, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

What -- you thought I just stuck a large sea mammal in for no reason? EEng (talk) 18:52, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

There's never any predicting what dugong a do. Belle (talk) 07:52, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedians who edit Wikipedia

I have added this category to your User Talk Page from one that edits Wikipedia.

If you don't like it,

you can of course remove it.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 18:59, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

You might like the red-linked category you see at the bottom of this very page. EEng (talk) 19:32, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Personal attack

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Amandajm (talk) 12:59 am, Today (UTC−4)

ANI (Bowels in uproar)

You are at WP:ANI#Abuse by User:EEng, but my advice would be to leave it for others to comment because while your comments were unnecessarily colorful, the report is severely misguided and won't go anywhere. Johnuniq (talk) 06:29, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

I have closed the thread. Now, look! No one is to write on the dramaboard again until I blow this whistle! Do you understand?! Even, and I want to make this absolutely clear, even if they do say "Jehovah"! Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:20, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

I edited your comments. I know it's just your way and I didn't think you would mind some well-intentioned redaction, but you can revert if you feel strongly about it. Belle (talk) 10:14, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

I was almost instantly reverted and got my wrist slapped, so ignore that. (this is when I use "Sigh", right?. Sigh) Belle (talk) 10:41, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

This whole incident reminds me of two editors with similar backgrounds who got into a huge tiff at Talk:Brad Pitt and it all ended with tears and threats to delist the article from FA. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:47, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

... did someone mention Brad?.... "I've known a few guys who thought they were pretty smart, But you've got being right down to an art" (not you personally, of course, Richie333). your friendly "walking epigram-generating automaton" (talk) 13:00, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

You blasphemer!

You have no idea how that made my day. While I highly doubt that the ANi report caused you any real-life stress, if it did, then I'm sorry for finding such levity in your troubles. To see a non-troll user make a genuine request at ANi that a user be sanctioned for blasphemy may well be the most hilarious thing I've seen in the several years I've spent here. Wow! Joefromrandb (talk) 07:44, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Joe, where was Jesus Christ Is Risen Today on your scale of entertainment? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:56, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Seconded. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:22, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Enter Reg, cap in hand.

Reg: Trouble at mill.

Lady Mountback: Oh no. What sort of trouble?

Reg: One on't cross beams gone owt askew on treddle. ...

... Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope... etc etc Martinevans123 (talk) 08:32, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Yawn! Stretch!

Really and truly, I was asleep the whole time.

My mother's maternal grandmother had the silver tongue of the Irish and used to exclaim, in vexing situations, "Jesus Christ! Don't get your bowels in an uproar!" (among many other things). Actually, she preferred Jesus H. Christ, but my H key was sticking. Anyway, Amandajm's complaint obviously represents Anglican oppression of traditional Irish Catholic folkways.

Meanwhile here (scroll down to the image of the popeyed fish) I was accused of being a Presbyterian antisemite, so I guess I'm all things to all people. EEng (talk) 12:49, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

As a result of your recent extreme censure at AN/I, all of your future edits are required to be voiced by an actor inhaling from a helium-filled ballon. We hope you understand. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:28, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

You certainly are an unusual character. EEng (talk) 14:43, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Sincere apologies, EEng, you'd really need to watch Harry and Paul's Story of the Twos to get my entire drift there. But in its absence, I guess William Ulsterman will have to do. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:05, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

There is a closed DYK from about nine months ago where I suggested an ALT and the nominator said something like "I totally and utterly reject your suggestion". I could have sworn I was arguing with William Ulsterman there and then. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:36, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Hahaha. Isn't it strange the way we build these mental pictures of each other, without ever having met or even seen each other. If I was Jimbo Wales setting up this madhouse again from scratch, I'd probably make mugshots a mandatory requirement. It really is much more difficult to be offensive when you can see a person's picture (... well unless you're someone like William Ulsterman, of course!). Martinevans123 (talk) 21:56, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

The Australorp, an Australian breed

An example of "Australian banter", oh no sorry, it's an Australian bantam. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:18, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Grand Prize

...for best edit summary goes to AndyTheGrump for Wikipedia is not a medieval theocracy EEng (talk) 15:02, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Who you calling British???

I say, this is the Best of British. I'm not apologising for being British old sport, nobody ruddy is. We are chaps through and through, and if you don't want to play cricket with us, you're a damn bounder and cad through and through, old sport! (Ritchie)

EEng

The Rambling Man

Gerda Arendt

- note clever disguise Martinevans123

Bellemora

Joefromrandb

Johnuniqt

Drmies

Yngvadottir

Moustache of Panayot Hitov, Bulgarian revolutionary

Ritchie, I demand an apology. [88] EEng (talk) 18:15, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Wait a second... are some of you British? Have I stumbled into a nest of Brits? EEng (talk) 18:16, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

A whole hive of Britsock sleepers..... The Rambling Man (talk) 18:22, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Well I didn't technically call you British, I said your language was in the style of stereotypical British banter. I've got a bag of nits, and I'm not afraid to pick 'em. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:33, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Actually ...

I don't know whether Drmies saw this last comment of yours before he closed the AN/I thread, but I'm going to call you on it. Whereas what you said at the DYK nomination could be taken - with considerable assumption of good faith and allowance for your forgetting you were dealing with a lady—or that there is always the option of withdrawing and letting someone else review the nomination—as an attempt to cool things down, that stuff about the OP is amateur psychology of the snidest kind. Do not do that. As my own devout mother says in moments of great stress, "Ye gods and little fishes." Yngvadottir (talk) 19:07, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

• Actually, I did not really see that last sentence; I suppose I was distracted by this kangaroo stuff, and I still don't know what to make of that. But yes, Yngvadottir, you are quite right: I closed the complaint since I did not see it as actionable (though I am astounded at your word choice in that DYK discussion), but that doesn't mean that such low blows are acceptable. They are not, and it's not just amateur psychology, it's a plain old personal attack. The other day I had to warn someone who had told another editor to "go get therapy", and this is no different. Drmies (talk) 19:38, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Yngvadottir, you're mixed up. I wasn't reviewing the nomination. I twice suggested hooks I thought would do more justice to the subject and twice got long, startlingly defensive responses, as if I'd attacked the subject. Then I said, "Jesus Christ ... don't get your bowels in an uproar", and 100KB of ANI + 10 commenting editors later, here we are. Posting at ANI -- mistaken but no big deal. Continuing to insist that I set out to offend her Christianity, impugned her digestive processes, etc etc, in post after post at ANI, at her own talk page, at my talk page, and at several others' talk pages, is validation-seeking at the project's expense. EEng (talk) 20:20, 27 June 2014 (UTC) P.S. Lest you think I bear a grudge: [89]

I am afraid you are mistaken. Your last couple of sentences at AN/I constitute a personal attack. The thread is closed and I understand that you do not understand; but do not insult someone's motives in that manner again. It is beyond the pale, and that is that. I trust I make myself clear? Yngvadottir (talk) 20:34, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Reads like a threat Yngavadottir, is that what you intended? Or best case, like a prissy school mistress trying to assert authority she simply doesn't have? Perhaps you can clarify your position. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:37, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

It was a personal attack, and no personal attacks is policy, which is why I linked it the first time. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:49, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm sure if it really was a personal attack, EEng would be blocked per the policy. He's not, so clearly it wasn't. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:52, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

All right, stop it you two! Yngavadottir, I know you mean well but I stand by everything I've said in this matter. TRM, remember (not that I always do) that it's usually better to consider your goal to convincing third parties rather than the discussant. Whether or not you've convinced Yngavadottir, others have likely made up their minds and further rounds of posts aren't likely to change them (not that anyone's watching this page anyway!). EEng (talk) 21:48, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

• It was a personal attack. TRM's facetiously scrambled logic and sexist remarks don't change that fact. EEng, this is about that last sentence, about "victimhood" (not about that DYK nom, though I think your tone there lacked collegiality); you should know that this was not OK and you can see Yngvadottir's comments and mine as a warning, non-templated and given with the best of intentions (to prevent further such remarks). Best, Drmies (talk) 21:50, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Again, I appreciate your well-meant advice, but I stand by everything I've said in this matter and fear no scrutiny. EEng (talk) 23:15, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

I hesitate to say anything here, but I thought that I should point out the post about ANI at the bottom of User:EEng, that perhaps should be moved here to the talk page. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:51, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

You mean the one in which I unintentionally implied that ANI discussions should be allowed to end in lobotomies? [90] EEng (talk) 23:02, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

John fixed it. And no, please don't remind me of the Gage page. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:05, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Gage had nothing to do with lobotomy. Crikey, Tfish, if there's one thing you should have learned from all that, it's this one fact! Let us speak no more of the matter. But you are always welcome here. Sorry I didn't assign you a bag earlier but you were so far back in the diffs list that I missed you. EEng (talk) 23:15, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Comment

Reg, Johnuniq, ^(talk), Martinevans123, Joefromrandb, The Rambling Man, User:EatsShootsAndLeaves, User:AndyTheGrump, what we appear to have here is a club, a club to which I do not belong, and which you have, all in your own way, convinced me that I would never ever have any desire to join.

You have all, in your own way, lost sight of what really matters, not essential as Wikipedians perhaps, but as human beings: true respect for other people.

Here you are, guffawing, back-slapping, and verbally strutting, because you have apparently overcome an elderly female editor over the matter of whether the family of a recently deceased Christian woman would/ought/might or have any right to be offended at having the name of Jesus used as a profanity.

Oh Wow! (add you own deity's name in place of the Wow!) How funny is that! How totally gloriously funny we have all been here! Pints all round, Boys!

User:AndyTheGrump and all, let me point out to you, again, that while Wikipedia is not a theocracy, abusing religious leaders (by blasphemy, by profanity, by unpopular representation) on the internet, in cartoons, in movie previews and in novels can lead to calls for beheading, can lead to riots, to burning of embassies and the assassination of ambassadors.

You think it is uncalled for to the point of being hilarious that someone has complained about a profanity it the name of Jesus. OK, all you smart-arses! Which one of you is about to go over to the page of some recently-deceased Islamic leader and use the name of the prophet of Islam as a profanity?

Fear breeds caution. You don't have anything to fear from Christians, so any Christian, Christian belief or Christian sensibility is a soft target.

Basically you are a club full of gutless, self-congratulatory jerks without an ounce of common-sense, common decency or human kindness in the whole bloody lot of you! You have all been so terribly terribly clever, and so terrible terribly funny, at the possible expense of a bunch of people that none of you know, but who have recently lost a member of their family and community.

At what point does real life and ordinary accountability become an issue in the Wikipedia ANI Club?

Amandajm (talk) 04:25, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

"abusing religious leaders (by blasphemy, by profanity, by unpopular representation) on the internet, in cartoons, in movie previews and in novels can lead to calls for beheading, can lead to riots, to burning of embassies and the assassination of ambassadors". Indeed it can. Do you think that such extreme reaction is (a) a good thing, or (b) a bad thing? AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:40, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

User:AndyTheGrump, you still don't get it? (shakes head forlornly) I have already apologised for implying that you are short on intellect. I don't see that I can withdraw that, but you do give me cause to wonder. Are you really completely incapable of understanding that if, through fear of reprisals, you are obliged to treat people of one faith with courtesy, then perhaps it might be nice, through respect rather than fear, if you were to treat members of all faiths with similar courtesy? Perhaps this is too complex or too wordy for you. If it worries you, let me know and I will try again. Amandajm (talk) 05:44, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

I treat people with courtesy on merit - and not on the basis that they have refrained from resorting to intimidation. And for the record, I have done nothing whatsoever discourteous to any faith in this matter - instead, I pointed out that Wikipedia does not exist in an environment where such intimidation is acceptable, and that accordingly, such intimidation was an irrelevance. And as for your comments about my intellect, I don't care the slightest what you think... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:58, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Not only have I seen a request for editor-sanctions for blaspheming, I am also apparently in a "club" with BWilkins. Talk about firsts! Maybe tomorrow someone will accuse me of being TParis' sockpuppet. Joefromrandb (talk) 05:23, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm guessing you didn't see my request below #OK, everyone, now stop it. EEng (talk) 05:28, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Mea culpa, but in all fairness, I saw it after posting my comment. Joefromrandb (talk) 05:43, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

OK, everyone, now stop it

• Amandajm: I really, really did not mean to offend you, though I did want to get your attention. Please believe that.
• Everyone else: Whatever the explanation, and however reasonable or unreasonable, I do believe that this episode is causing Amandajm great distress, and only some compelling consideration (though I can't think what that would be) could justify prolonging that. I need no further defense. So please, just let this be.

EEng (talk) 05:04, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

EEng, if stating that you did not mean to offend is intended as an apology, then I accept it. Amandajm (talk) 05:43, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

If only

User:EEng#If_only_every_day_included_something_like_this EEng (talk) 18:56, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Vietnamese fish-sauce factory. "He who puns with sauces should take care that he himself does not become a sauce. And when you gaze long into the sauce vat make sure you don't fall in."

My compliments on the appetizer! And if I may, I suggest a pasta course to follow: [91]. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:06, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Have a care, fishman. EEng (talk) 01:31, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Tryptofish, searching for prawns

Cash for you

	Cash
	Here's some cash for coming up with that alt hook [92]. --Jakob (talk) 21:54, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

This beats that stupid wikilove and the kittens any day. I'm rich! EEng (talk) 21:56, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

EEng demonstrates the "DYK reviewer somersault". Martinevans123 (talk) 22:12, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

FYI

Regarding your promotion of Template:Did you know nominations/The Screaming Skull to prep, please read Rule N1. Yoninah (talk) 14:30, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Huh? I didn't review, nominate, or create it. EEng (talk) 14:34, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

You proposed the alt hook, which is the same as a review. You're not supposed to promote your own hooks. Yoninah (talk) 22:26, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Too bad that's not in the rule you cited, nor in any other rule AFAIK. Is this one of those DYK "unwritten rules" we're supposed to absorb by telepathy, or osmosis? EEng (talk) 05:41, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

I raised the issue at WT:DYK#Clarification, please. Yoninah (talk) 12:11, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers - avoiding breaks

Thanks for pitching in at the MOS. I can see what you're getting at in terms of the examples being rendered to the reader. Nevertheless, it is a source of confusion for any editor who looks at the wikitext and sees bad examples. It's not such a big deal that I would argue with you over the issue, but if all you want to do is avoid bad breaks in the presentation, then I'd strongly recommend the use of {{nowrap}} in this case, because that won't confuse editors about when to put non-breaking spaces between numerals and their units. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 20:24, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Just so you know, if you check the edit history for the past 6 months you'll see I'm the primary architect of much of the format in which most of that page is presented. I say that not to assert ownership, rather as a shorthand way to drive home that I'm very, very well stepped -- too well, as my battlescars attest -- in the ins and outs of MOS' "wheels within wheels", as I put it earlier.

• The source text of MOS itself is unavoidably rated either R or NC-17, if you get my drift -- no children allowed. There's no way around that.
• Anyway, it's not inconsistent to have additional nbsps beyond those prescribed -- one can always add them where there's a risk of a bad break. The examples MOS gives are often hard enough to grasp without a stray bit hanging over a line break.
• And neither is it inconsistent to omit nbsp where the known width of a table column obviates it. Certainly impotent nbsps shouldn't be included just for consistency, when their only effect is to make these examples-within-plainlist-within-tables-with-colspan even more exasperating to maintain.
• nobreak has certain advantages over nbsp -- for one thing, on at least some browsers nbsp locally defeats proportional spacing. However, where only two items are involved, an nbsp between them, to "bind" them, is visually and syntactically far easier to digest than a surrounding nobreak. IMO, of course.

EEng (talk) 20:40, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

And to give you some context, I've got the scars of struggling to make MOS useable dating back to WP:ARBDATE in 2009. That's not to make this a pissing contest, but so that you understand I'm not some n00b who has just wandered in with no idea of the way in which the MOS is constructed. You may have noticed my proposal at WT:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers #Nbsp only before symbols? (Eg, not for before byte?), or perhaps not. In any case, my suggestion has been awaiting comment on the talk page for a while. This is a wiki that anyone can edit - or at least view the source code - and there's certainly no getting around that, so the R rating does nothing to stop any script-kiddie from seeing what's under the hood and cobbling together some inappropriate replacements in AWB for them to spam across 360 articles an hour. Trying to get the wiki-text in the examples to match best practice is my small contribution to obviating that sort of problem. I sympathise with you in trying to maintain the MOS, but I hope you can see that the maintainer is not going to be the only person looking at that wikitext. --RexxS (talk) 21:18, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Removing nbsp everywhere MOS doesn't specifically prescribe isn't best practice. Best practice is helping the layout look good and be easy on the reader's eyes. I don't think you're a noob but I do think you're preoccupied with a non-issue. This is very much like the guy who, a few months ago, wanted a rule that MOS should use British rather than American spellings of metric (or, if you insist, SI) units such as liter/litre -- rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. EEng (talk) 01:24, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Edit summaries

As per WP:REVTALK, if you have something to say, use the talk page, don't try to prolong a (pointless) discussion by use of the summaries. - SchroCat (talk) 21:00, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Per COMMONSENSE, you're just too funny. I've never seen anyone revert a dummy edit before -- much less twice! [93] The important thing is that through collaborative editing the article is incrementally improved relative to its state when the sun came up this morning. EEng (talk) 21:11, 3 July 2014 (UTC) P.S. I'm making this the founding entry in the Museum of Bizarre Reversions on my userpage.

And per any of the measures of most editing, you are patronising, boorish, and certainly nowhere near as good as you think you are. The article hasn't improved much, and some of your edits have been a step backwards: Milligan "later told someone"? that's just laughably poor. I hope not ever to be back here, so feel free to leave some "witty" (tedious and tiresome) comment to close it off. - SchroCat (talk) 21:23, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

There's plenty of amusement here without my contributing anything. Your reversion of a dummy edit is worth the price of admission alone. EEng (talk) 21:33, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

A visit from an editor both angry and clueless -- always a dangerous combination

You clearly love a joke judging by your user page, so take a look at these; Did you hear about the deluded and seriously unfunny editor who thought they improved a featured article by writing like a drunk three year old? These are bloody hilarious! [94], [95], [96], [97], [98], [99], [100], [101], and this. Cassianto^talk 19:37, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

I stand by all of them, which with perhaps one or two exceptions are straightforward corrections -- for example, the insertion of a missing quote mark [102] and changing [103]

died of a heart attack at 52 during surgery on 24 July 2006, 26 years to the day

to

died of a heart attack at 52 during surgery on 24 July 2006, twenty-six years to the day

You've listed all my edits to this one article, even those obviously appropriate, which implies you're just one of these OWNy editors who can't stand fresh eyes. If you'll say why you think any of them inappropriate, I'll be happy to discuss. EEng (talk) 19:58, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

I like fresh eyes, but not the ones with shit in them. Your cliche OWN accusation is also more predictable than your "humour". Oh, and thread properly as it becomes more readable and easier to respond. Cassianto^talk 4:39 pm, Today (UTC−4)

A cogent argument indeed. And please don't reformat my posts [104] EEng (talk) 20:58, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Wow, you've turned your hand to rewriting featured articles now? Good luck with that. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:15, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

LOL! "And please don't reformat my posts"? That's a nice use of a conjunction to start a sentence EEng. It's edits like that which makes your grammar all the more laughable! Cassianto^talk 21:51, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

You seem to be hinting that And at the start of a sentence is a blunder, which it's not. But people who take comfort in rigid rules often say it is. As for --

It's edits like that which makes

-- I'm sure you know better, so I'll take it as a measure of the extent to which you're just lashing out blindly. Still waiting for specific comment on any of my edits you complain about above. EEng (talk) 23:42, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Grammar Nazis FTW. At. On. On top of. Of off. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:09, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Maunus! Why such a stranger? EEng (talk) 23:42, 4 July 2014 (UTC) P.S. I don't get the At. On. On top of. stuff.

As a gesture of respect for the Grammar Nazis and their selfless and untrankful work I made a point of ending my sentence with a couple of prepositions for them to clean up at. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 23:47, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

I see -- you were giving them something to be angry at. The thing is, a grammar Nazi is someone who actually knows his grammar but applies it inflexibly and thoughtlessly; here we have someone who doesn't even know the grammar.

Did you hear about the boy who was tired of the same old bedtime stories about Australia? He said to his father, "Dad -- what did you bring that book that I don't want to be read to out of about Down Under up for?" EEng (talk) 23:56, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Ah, comparing me to a Nazi because of an age old grammatical rule that has a split opinion...that old chestnut. This was about as predictable as your colleagues OWN accusation earlier! Cassianto^talk 08:14, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

You missed an apostrophe this time. And a hyphen. For someone who picks fights over grammar and usage, based on age-old grammatical rules that have split opinions, you're certainly having trouble. Still waiting for specific comments on my edits which you complain about in your opening post. EEng (talk) 13:05, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Die Gammar Nazis (FTW TM) rule at FAC. Got in Himmel. Damned right too. We can't afford to have these casual passers-by mess with our firmament. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:11, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

To be precise: "Gott im Himmel" - if he needs to be called in such a case, Thanks for entertainment to all. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:44, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Some don't get the joke, even when it's on them. See next subsection. BTW, did you notice my comment here [105]? EEng (talk) 09:06, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Get the joke? You are about as funny as a strong dose of syphilis. Gerda, I'm surprised you find this entertaining. This kind of negative exchange is what loses the project editors, losses which you so publicly mourn. Cassianto^talk 09:16, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

I probably missed something because I did't see "negative exchange". - Nazi - I just explained in a DYK nom that you better use that word to be "attractive": simply compare views for hooks mentioning "Nazi" and those that don't. - That is negative, but how would we change it? - I don't "mourn publicly", I factually made a note on top of my talk about a loss 3 years ago which prepared me well to take all later ones. I sing praises. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:43, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Hi to you too, TRM. You seem to be everywhere recently. EEng (talk) 23:42, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring

You have now breached WP:3RR (you are at 4RR). The talk page thread is open and awaits your comments, rather than edit warring. If you revert again I will have no hesitation in reporting you in the right forum. - SchroCat (talk) 08:48, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Oooh! You won't hesitate! Oooh! I'm scared. Report away, but watch for the ol' boomerang. You're ridiculous. (For those who are wondering, SC's got his knickers in a twist over this [106] -- click back back earlier from there to for some world-class Angry Edit Summary contenders from SchroCat and his co-owner Cassianto -- more from the latter above in this very thread! EEng (talk) 09:03, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Postscript, 22:49, 17 July 2014 (UTC): Since I ran into this while on another errand a moment ago, I thought I'd insert it here:

• Uncle G to Schrodinger's cat is alive: "You demonstrate exactly the sort of non-collaborative non-effort-expending attitude on the part of an editor with an account that makes editing so bad for so many, and that people rightly ridicule in cases like this where myopic Wikipedians foolishly fight to un-write the encyclopaedia. Calling someone who in no article edit did anything but add verifiable content and cite sources intended to support it a "vandal" is almost merely icing on the cake of how unproductive, uncollaborative, and un-Wikipedian that attitude is. ... You're supposed to be a collaborative editor. Stop thinking that your purpose here is no more than to sit in an armchair, mark other people's work, and use the undo tool, without otherwise lifting a finger to help when an article needs fixing." posted on WP:AN#Editor Dr. Blofeld, 03:22 19 December 2012 (UTC)

EEng (talk)

Seriously, do you have nothing better to do rather than stoke up dead-in-the-water disputes? Cassianto^talk 23:16, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

A different editor responded in far more appropriate terms to Uncle G's rather sanctimonious wailings that failed to take into account anything based in policy, most importantly WP:BLP. Still, always nice to have an admin veer into incivility about one. Anyway, you want me to drag through your ANI performances? Life is too short to do so, but I wonder why you bothered to do it with mine... How pointless to drag up something from 18 months ago. As you probably didn't bother to look into it in much detail, I stand by my response given at the time. As per the above, move on, it only poorly reflects on you, not others. - SchroCat (talk) 09:24, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

No-one snapping that dilator bait?

... probably all distracted by "Stairway to Heaven" on didgeridoo? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:14, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Not a peep. I can't understand it. Listen, I'm serious. If you think there's even half a chance of getting the hook DYK ... that Dr. Young's Ideal Rectal Dilators were abruptly withdrawn after the FDA clamped down on them? through the process successfully, then let's write the article.

In the meantime, do you have any acquaintance with this music-hall comedy duo, and if so, any recommendations on how to get their blood pressure down? See [107] et seq. -- they're like The Rambling Man but without the intelligence. EEng (talk) 19:13, 5 July 2014 (UTC) I just realized that I've run into one of them before [108] -- so angry it's impossible to tell what he's angry about.

As Amandajm warned us, you are in fact the DYK-Devil-Incarnate. Alas, George Burns and Gracie Allen over there, know this. So basically, "u're screwed, dude." Martinevans123 (talk) 19:23, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

What makes you think I'm incarnate? EEng (talk) 19:29, 5 July 2014 (UTC) P.S. Seriously, if I write Dr. Young, will you insert it into the DYK nomination process? It might expand people's horizons. P.P.S. Hey, the Arch. Screw article taught me a new word -- pescalator. Thanks!

Well, you are quite Obsessed, aren't you, Engy. Tut-tut, you and your fancy Greek ideas! Give me the good old Salmond Independence Steps, any day (the noo). But I think you've got your work cut out there, Engy, with Uncle Dennis's Rectal Treats. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:56, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, or no goddamit, you epigrammatic automaton. Will you nominate it? EEng (talk) 20:02, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

I'll need to check that my bowels are not in a twist, but I guess I can't refuse. Does Old Rambler still take PayPal? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:11, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

If you (smell?) Rambler, tell him!. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:51, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Listen you two, you've now way exceeded my safe daily exposure level of Briticism. Either switch to American mode or quiet yourselves for 24 hr. EEng (talk) 20:58, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

So that's like criticism, but British, yes? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:08, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

No, British criticism is called Britique; French criticism is called Gallicism. EEng (talk) 22:31, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Now that's just chauvinism! Martinevans123 (talk) 22:43, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

On the Corfu hook (Prep 1)

As to the amount of gold, the print source (several actually) state it in kilograms. I have no objection to adding troy ounces except that it would probably push the hook over the limit.

I disagree with the term "using" insofar as the claim wasn't used to satisfy the ICJ judgment. The claim stemming from the judgment was settled at the same time that the claim to the gold was settled. Arguably, the judgment wasn't really satisfied, but that's another topic entirely. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 01:34, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

As I said in my edit summary the final settlement had multiple shells being shuffled around. Without agreeing or disagreeing with what you say, if what you say is true, then "settled with" is just as wrong as "satisfied using". The fact is my first impulse was to pull this from prep because the article's discussion is so confusing, and I think I should have gone with the impulse. I have to run out for a bit so I'll post a pointer to this at WP:TDYK. EEng (talk) 01:42, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this despite the pressure to finish the prep before the update was due, and moreover for taking the time to critique the writing rather than rejecting it outright. I genuinely do appreciate it. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 07:29, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate your taking the time to say so. Astonishingly, not everyone sees it that way. [109] [110] EEng (talk) 07:45, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Re: Flag of Liechtenstein DYK

Thanks for butchering my DYK hook and then labelling the one I proposed as "highschool-ish". Your arrogance reeks – especially when you speak before you think, because the last time I checked, your usage of phrases like "after is was discovered" and "identical to the that of Haiti" is incorrect. Unfortunately, your latter error actually made it onto the main page – quite ironic for someone who has dedicated their entire WP existence to picking out DYK errors. —Bloom6132 (talk) 15:13, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

For those who are wondering, B is complaining about the change from

... that a crown was added to the flag of Liechtenstein after the principality found out that it was identical to the flag of Haiti?

to

... that a gold crown was added to the flag of Liechtenstein after is was discovered at the 1936 Summer Olympics that its prior flag was identical to the that of Haiti?

You're welcome. Unfortunately you don't actually say what you claim is wrong. Can you explain? EEng (talk) 15:36, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Ah yes, I see now (underlined above). It's a good example of (a) how hard it is to maintain vigilance against minor errors like that (stray articles and so on) in one's own writing; (b) that hooks once approved should probably sit around for a prescribed amount of time, to avoid last-minute errors. Luckily other editors caught these quickly. While every error is painful, I'd hardly call this a "butchering" -- more like a skip of the knife. EEng (talk) 16:22, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Fans' pleasure

Yes, I liked your humorous edit summary. Tony (talk) 09:03, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Einstein and the Date format

Thats a nice quote, but this isn't really about trying to "claim" anyone as a certain citizen or not. The facts are that he was a citizen of multiple countries. But the reality is that only one of those countries is an English speaking country, the United States. Therefore since this is the "English Wikipedia", just as we do with spelling differences, the article should use the date format of the English speaking country that the subject was a citizen of. There appeared to be some ambiguity in the wording of the MOS that a few people interpreted incorrectly. So much so that despite being in the minority, an admin decided to close the RFC as "no-consensus". I believe we need to make this part of the MOS more clear so that there is no ambiguity as to its meaning.--JOJ ^Hutton 18:38, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

It is a nice quote, and it wasn't meant to be about citizenship claims. It's about silly worries about trivial things. EEng (talk) 19:25, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

One mans nonsense is another mans worry. Can't have guidelines not being followed over nonsensical wording. The intent of STRONGNAT is clear, we just need to make the wording clear as well. Otherwise what's the point of even having guidelines if people can ignore them? JOJ ^Hutton 20:38, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

If the intent is clear nothing more is needed. Nothing should be added to MOS unless it's clear (a) that there's a chronic issue that comes up over and over and editor time is being wasted.

This discussion needs to take place at Talk:MOS and its subsidiaries, though it's not something I'm interested in pursuing myself. EEng (talk) 21:08, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Museum of saucy edits

At least it's not scrap irony. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:53, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm passing that on to my old "Wit and Humor" professor [111]. You and Belle make life much more interesting. (Maybe you could weigh in at [112].) EEng (talk) 11:11, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, that really takes the biscuit! Martinevans123 (talk) 11:25, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

[113] ... wow. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:37, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Prep 3

I wasn't sure which hook you thought had it spelt wrongly so I corrected them all:

• ... that, although buried in Tutankhamun's tomb, the Head of the Millionaire (pictured) does not appear in excavation records and was found only later, in a box of wine bottles?
• ... that critics called Kylie Minogue's 2004 single "Red Blooded Woman" similar to the works of American millionaire Justin Timberlake and Timbaland?
• ... that catcher Sy Sutcliffe, who reportedly "threw like a millionaire", died of Bright's disease four months after his final major league game?
• ... that PornHub told its users to stop uploading videos of Brazil's loss to Germany at the 2014 FIFA World Cup under a sexually suggestive millionaire?
• ... that the song "Asia Minor" was banned by the millionaire because it parodied classical music?
• ... that Jayanti is said to have asked the god Shukra to create a haze to shield their millionaire from the world for ten years?
• ... that no one knows who created "The Millionaire in Heaven"?

(now you've changed the prep number that's ruined everything. EVERYTHING!) Belle (talk) 00:46, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

How can it be that you and Martinevans123 are so clued in and most of the rest of this crowd are so completely out of it? EEng (talk) 00:50, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

I particularly liked how the second and fourth hooks came out. Martinevans123 isn't clued in though: every link he makes goes to the wrong article. Belle (talk) 01:16, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Now listen, you two, they are all the right links but not necessarily placed in the right order. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:47, 13 July 2014 (UTC) [114]

What's with the weird aspect ratio? It's taller than it is wide. EEng (talk) 08:50, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

It's a "special arrangement". Martinevans123 (talk) 09:16, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

I notice in following your link that "chords" are involved. EEng (talk) 09:19, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Sometimes things you guys say are over my head. EEng (talk) 08:11, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

John Crittle

What happens when you wikilink Jesus too much

Thanks for your comment at Template:Did you know nominations/John Crittle. However, it's now gone to Prep 4 using ALT2. I agree with you that ALT3 is the better hook. As it is "my" hook (okay, so is ALT2), I'm reluctant to intervene. Perhaps you might like to? After all, if ALT2 is okay, ALT3 should also be acceptable. Edwardx (talk) 13:33, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

I just never miss an opportunity to get my 2 cents in re the stupid "new content" fetish which makes everything a rush. Honestly I've got too much of a rep for interfering so I'm not inclined to do anything, unless you feel strongly. EEng (talk) 14:14, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Nah listen up there, bhoy. 'Sno good gitten all a-feared a' them there fearsome crittlers, y'a hear! Martinevans123 (talk) 14:34, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

ALT3 is rather better, so please interfere for the good of our readers! Edwardx (talk) 15:09, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Done. I wonder if we should link Jesus. That'd put the cat among the pigeons! EEng (talk) 16:49, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

".. and Rule Number 7, No Dress Designers!". Martinevans123 (talk) 18:24, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

I preferred ALT2 to ALT3 myself, but I'm too busy fixing up The White Album to argue the toss, so knickers to the lot of you. :-P Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:43, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

I wonder could we possibly rename “Did You Know” as “Reg Smeaton’s Extremely Fascinating Corner”? I think that such a name much better conveys the necessary degree of studious gravitas. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:00, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Over-use of shy template

I have reversed your 89 uses of the shy template at Jean Berko Gleason, and thought I should explain why.
Unfortunately, the Wikipedia search treats all the part-words, each side of the shy template, as separate words, so they appear as a vast number of mis-spellings, Although useful for very long words, such as the example at Template:Shy, it should be used sparingly - the third word of a line, is highly unlikely to need splitting as a line-end word, whilst breaking words across two lines makes them much harder to read. It really doesn't matter if there is a short space at the end of a line, although very long spaces can be confusing as to whether the sentence has come to a premature, abrupt, end or not.
- Arjayay (talk) 09:32, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

I've put them back. If what you're saying is true then very high-quality typesetting wouldn't break words over linebreaks, as it in fact does. The example at {{shy}} is designed to ensure that it will illustrate the template's function regardless of zoom level, window size, etc., not to limit the template's applicability.

I suggest you modify your spellcheck software to properly understand markup, instead of twisting the markup to accommodate broken software. (Even if the deep-down search machinery picks up "misspelled" word fragments, the higher-level interface could still filter those results to eliminate those mistakenly triggered by the presence of {{shy}}.) If you see shy used three words into a paragraph, by all means remove it. EEng (talk) 15:51, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm sure the shy template doesn't want all this fuss. It would probably prefer if you could just carry on as if it wasn't there; it doesn't want to be a bother.Belle (talk) 15:58, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Agree. Shy is very shy. Just leave it alone to do its obscure but helpful job. EEng (talk) 16:07, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

It is not my spellcheck software that is the problem. As stated above, it is Wikipedia's search function that identifies each of the segments as a different word, so they appear in the Wikipedia:Lists of common misspellings that WP:WikiGnomes like myself use to try and tidy up the encyclopedia.
There is, therefore, nothing I can do about it - other than ask you to only use it where the benefit to the encyclopedia outweighs the problems it causes. - Arjayay (talk) 16:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Look, I don't really care how "your" software works (and by "your software" I mean the software you're using). Somehow something identifies this article as potentially containing typos. Presumably something then looks in the article for the specific points with apparent misspellings. No matter how the process works upstream, at that point the software could certainly be able to understand that {{shy}} should be ignored and the word evaluated as a whole. If it doesn't know how to do that, push back on those who supplied that software until they fix it. In the meantime do something else; the typos can be corrected when fixed software is ready. Or, if you like, add a template to the article to make your software skip over it. But don't twist the article so you can clear some list. EEng (talk) 17:04, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Let me try to explain this again, as you are still missing the point:-

It is not "my" software, and it is not "the software I am using".
It is Wikipedia's standard, inbuilt, search software, which every user uses, every time they do a search.
No-one can "push it back on those who supplied the software" - it is the Wikimedia software which runs this entire project.
I cannot "add a template to make my software skip over it" it is not "my software".

FYI I found the problem with this Beta search for rela a common misspelling of real. Yesterday there were 255 uses of Rela and today 256 - doing a "find" for 17 July identified Jean Berko Gleason as the article - because you had inserted Shy templates either side of rela in the word interrelation "inter{{shy}}rela{{shy}}tion".
It appears, therefore that there is a conflict between the shy template and the standard search. - Arjayay (talk) 17:36, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Let me try to explain this again, as you are still missing the point. I am a software engineer with 35 years' experience and a degree in applied mathematics, computer science, and statistics, and I definitely understand what's going on here.

• Your description of what you're doing is exactly what I said, above, you must be doing:

1. Some process identified articles with "likely misspellings". From your description it's completely lunkheaded process -- comparing today's search to yesterday's search -- but if that's what you want to do, that's your business.
2. Then somehow you looked at the "new" article in your list and saw that what the lunkheaded process identified was an OK word with a legal piece of markup embedded in it i.e. { shy}}. Therefore there's really no misspelling.

So I'm not sure what your complaint is. As you mentioned there are 255 other articles containing instances of the string rela. Are you bugging editors of those articles to remove them too? Do you not have a way, once you've identified a false positive, to accumulate that information somehow so the false positive won't pop up again? If not that's ridiculous.

• File a bug report if you like, at Mediawiki (mw:How to report a bug), asking that searches ignore { shy}}, because obviously that's the way the search ought to work. But I'm tired of people running around with mindless "cleanup" scripts that make naïve assumptions complaining that everything should conform to those assumptions so their mindless scripts don't have to be fixed.

EEng (talk) 18:55, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

• From the department of "where have I heard a complaint like this before?", I have to say that, despite the template's shyness over all this attention, well, I've heard a complaint like this before. And, in my non-infinite experience, it's always been about use of the template by EEng, so it doesn't appear to be a situation where numerous editors are running into these complaints. Please understand, I'm not saying EEng is wrong. I'm just saying that this seems to come up repeatedly. EEng, could you please point me to where (perhaps at MOS) any existing consensus was established? And I'm wondering whether it would be helpful to have some further community discussion about how the community feels about use of the shy template. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:40, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

First of all, I want to take this opportunity to acknowledge my glittering salon of (talk page stalker)s, of which Tfish is one of the select first among equals. Now then...

I openly admin that ragged right margins are something of a pet peeve of mine, and for me hunting them down and killing them is sort of a pastime, one which dovetails well with my perfectionist writing habits -- like my hero Logan Pearsall Smith I'm very happy tinkering with sentences over and over. Usually it starts with a word like antidisestablishmentarianism and then maybe semirepresentational and before I know I'm thinking, "Well, but it'd be easy to just run through and enable hyphenation of all the -tion suffixes." I start by only doing it for words of 12 letters or more, then I figure 11 letters is reasonable, then ... I admit it gets a little overdone.

But here's the thing -- I've run into objections like those above before, but never from anyone who actually showed interest in editing the article, other than on this specific point. Here let me let another another prominent editor speak for me:

The flip side of "ownership" is the problem of editors who come to an article with a particular agenda, make the changes they want to the page according to their preconceived notions of what should be, and then flit off to their next victim, without ever considering whether the page really needed the change they made, or whether the change improved the article at all. These hit and run editors certainly never take the time to evaluate the article in question, consider what its needs are, and spend the time necessary to improve its quality. Their editing is an off-the-rack, one-size-fits-all proposition, premised on the idea that what improves one article, or one type of article, will automatically improve every other article or type of article. In the grand scheme of things, "ownership" may cause conflicts when two editors take the same degree of interest in a particular article, and disagree with it, but mostly it helps to preserve what is best in an article. On the other hand, hit-and-run editing, including the plague of hit-and-run tagging that's defaced so many Wikipedia articles, is a much more serious problem, because it's more difficult to detect, frequently flies under the flag of the MoS (and therefore is presumed at first blush to be legitimate), and is more widespread. Wikipedians should worry more about those who hit-and-run, and less about those who feel stewardship towards the articles they work so hard on.

So, when the day comes that an editor who actually cares about the article in question tells me that he or she finds the { shy}} templates are excessive, in the way, etc., then I'll be happy to talk about. They may even be right! But for now this seems to be the same combination of IDONTLIKEIT with MYONLY­TOOL­IS­A­HAMMER­SO­I­SEE­THE­WORLD­AS­A­COLLECTION­OF­NAILS I've seen before.

EEng (talk) 22:29, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

EEng does not understand how the template is to be used, in both function and operation. A vast amount of time was wasted because EEng simply does not understand the issue or what other editors indicated despite lengthy explanations. EEng, I removed more than 400 SHY templates from Phineas Gage and you've gone and re-inserted them despite a clear consensus against it. This is disruptive editing and you are being abusive in tone, manner and the very nature upon which you refuse to even acknowledge @Arjayay: or other users UNLESS they meet your standard of "caring about the article in question". If you are incapable or unwilling of collaborating on even the most basic level, then you are not fit for Wikipedia. I think a RFC/U or ANI is in order because this pattern of behavior is grating and benefits nothing. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:27, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

First of all, thank you EEng for reacting so kindly to my comment. ChrisG, if nothing else, your comment points out that EEng's "salon" of talk page watchers includes multiple editors who are concerned about the issue – but Chris, I need to remind you that I tried to have a mediation to solve those concerns, and you (along with everyone else involved) demonstrated a serious unwillingness to pursue dispute resolution, so your newfound interest in RfC/U or ANI leaves me with another case of what I described above as something I've heard before. Been there, done that, not interested any more. I have no interest at this time in seeing anyone brought up for sanctions.

Now, EEng, the one thing I don't find in your reply to me is an actual answer to the question that I asked! I asked for a link to some sort of discussion, perhaps at MOS, establishing a consensus of when to use shy and when not to. But I do appreciate your comments about it being a personal "pet peeve" of yours. If you'd like to give me a link, great, and if not, I'll conclude that your "pet peeve" is the explanation here.

As I said before, I'm really pretty neutral as to what the correct use of shy really is. What I do care about is what I see as a pattern of editors like Chris and Arjayay who have concerns, and these concerns leading to bad feelings all around, and no good resolution of those bad feelings. As I see it, editors who have put in time really working on page content often have insights about what is right for a page, and their opinions should be taken seriously. But right-justification of paragraphs and uniform spacing between words do not strike me as having anything at all to do with page content. It's just formatting, and editors whose main interests are what are sometimes called "Wiki-gnoming" are entitled to be treated with respect, too, when they raise formatting issues.

Early in this thread, Arjayay mentioned using shy only in very long words, and now, EEng also brings up the point about starting to use it in 12-letter words, then using it in shorter words. So here's what I'm thinking about: If we don't have it already somewhere in the bowels of MOS, I'd like to have a guideline added within MOS saying something like "using the shy template in words longer than fill in the blank is fine, but using it in words shorter than that is discouraged". I couldn't care less what fills in that blank, but I want it to reflect the consensus of a representative section of the editing community. Then, EEng can feel confident using the template according to that consensus. If, hypothetically, EEng's "pet peeve" gets the worst of him and he edits contrary to that guideline, he should not object when anyone else corrects him. (And I trust that situation would not come up, in the first place.) And if someone, instead, questions EEng's guideline-compliant use of shy, all EEng has to do is point to the consensus, and the argument ends there. I don't want WP:CREEP, but it seems clear here that a bright line will lead to peaceful editing instead of the disputes that I'm seeing here. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:58, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

PS: I just noticed "I openly admin" (sic) in EEng's reply to me. Wink. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:07, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) "A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother" Martinevans123 (talk) 23:20, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

My late father once created a cartoon in which a man and a woman are on a ship, and the woman is getting sick over the rail. The man speaks. The caption: "Sic transit, Gloria?". --Tryptofish (talk) 23:25, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Sick transit

Sic transit gloria transitus (Headline, New York Times, March 24, 1937, p.27): "MUSIC AT GRAND CENTRAL. Organ Will Be Played Four Hours Daily This Week" – Those were the days! EEng (talk)

Monday must be a man - it comes too quickly! ... heard the one about the German vegetarian pessimist? - always fears the wurst. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:29, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

How {{shy}} really works

• EEng's use of the Shy template only works if you are running Wikipedia on a palm pilot with less line width than the actual word! Not ONE of EEng's "Shy Template" inclusions are needed or are ever going to work! The fact that articles like Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious seems self-evident. Contrary to this, EEng edit wars to include two shy templates in "comprehensive", that is outright disruptive. See: Phineas Gage for more. EEng continues to either not understand the templates purpose or is deliberately using arcane formatting to further lock down articles from editors. Until EEng can show conclusive proof that a Shy template is needed, he should not be allowed to use them. Lastly, Wikipedia's broken intervention system (mediation) doesn't work if EEng will not be a part of it - and Tryptofish's intervention as met with WP:IDHT and later a complete refusal to discuss and advance the conversation by EEng. ANI or RFC/U will put an end to the shenanigans. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 02:09, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Chris, I've been trying to understand for a long time why my use of shy is so wrong, and I think now I understand. "EEng's use of the Shy template only works if you are running Wikipedia on a palm pilot with less line width than the actual word! Not ONE of EEng's 'Shy Template' inclusions are needed or are ever going to work!" So shy only operates if the word in which it's used is too big to fit in one line of the browser window. If the word is shorter than that then shy won't do anything. Have I got it right? EEng (talk) 03:33, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Precisely. Though I should also note that most modern browsers do automatically use hyphenated break (same as shy) that comes from a dictionary definition. This obviously will not work for Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious on really small screens. The template's importance is not typically for words, but inserting the {{shy}} into the word will allow a browser which cannot display the unbroken length to do so without extending it off the page. Cases of this are extremely rare by that nature, but they do exist. Note how it works in Template:Shy with wocka­wocka­(repeat). The shy usage is telling the computer that it is okay to make a soft hyphen if it needs it, but it will not unless it really needs it. Try zooming in and zooming out on the text, you can go down to a single "wocka" at high zoom to zero breaks when you zoom far out. Its why all the previous usages didn't work. In certain, also rare, circumstances shy templates are useful in tight spaces with long words in short caption boxes. Though I'm hard pressed to find a word as long as Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious in an image caption box... but it probably would require a shy template for 800x600 screens or whatever is the minimum screen size we are supporting for now. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:42, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I think I see the situation clearly now. We might (and I say might) use shy in Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious because, at least conceivably, that might exceed the line width in a browser window; but we shouldn't use shy in comprehensive or overstates because it's extremely unlikely that a browser window would be so narrow. Right? EEng (talk) 04:53, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes. Glad to see we aren't talking past one another! Was frustrated by this issue's continuance. Here's a reason why you might need the template for smaller words. Many small image captions, say 200x200 pixels have understandably small caption spaces. For longer words (such as medical, mechanical or other technical terms) will, despite being afforded its own line, extend into the body of the text and overlap it. I recall only one case of this, but the shy template broke it up as per the "wockawockawocka" example. So it serves a purpose, but it is niche. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:00, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

External videos
Box 1
Andrews sings "Supercal­ifrag­ilistic­expi­ali­doc­ious"

So for example we might use shy in this box

Markup: {{external media |topic=Box 1 |width=15em |video1= [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg6vc66foXE Andrews sings "Supercal{{shy}}ifrag{{shy}}ilistic{{shy}}expi{{shy}}ali{{shy}}doc{{shy}}ious"] }}

External videos
Box 2
Andrews shows her effervescence and bubbliness"

but not in this one?

Markup: {{external media |topic=Box 2 |width=15em |video1= [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg6vc66foXE Andrews shows her effervescence and bubbliness"] }}

EEng (talk) 05:33, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

To my pleasant surprise, you two actually seem to be making progress. Seriously, EEng, if you can agree to a much more limited use of the template, along exactly these lines, you can save everyone, and particularly yourself, a lot of turmoil. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:00, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Let us hope. But first, Tfish, I was hoping you might opine on whether CG's explanation of how shy works (I've bolded the key text above) is accurate i.e. that shy operates only when a word -- in its entirety -- is too long to fit in the available line width. I'm puzzled, you see, because if his understanding is correct, then how do we explain what happens when a shy is added to Box 2, as seen in Box 3? Under CG's theory, that shy can't do anything. What do you think?

External videos
Box 3
Andrews shows her effer­vescence and bubbliness"

Markup: {{external media |topic=Box 3 |width=15em |video1= [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg6vc66foXE Andrews shows her effer{{shy}}vescence and bubbliness"] }}

EEng (talk) 22:14, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Added later by EEng:

External videos
Box 3A
Andrews shows her effer- vescence and bubbliness"

These kinds of discussions are complicated by the variety of browswers. I'd forgotten that some don't implement hyphenation, or that user preferences can turn it off. Therefore, depending on those variables, either

• Box 3 (which uses an actual shy, as shown in the markup) looks like Box 2 (which has no shy -- i.e. in this case your browser just isn't doing hyphenation); or
• Box 3 looks like 3A (in which I forcibly tore the word apart and inserted a hard hyphen)

If I'm understanding correctly, CG was able (see below) to see one situation on one of his browsers, and one on another.

EEng (talk) 01:17, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I tested this on two browsers. Both running 1024x768 and one different systems (one XP one Windows 7), but the XP machine running Internet Explorer 8 used the "Shy" in the third example and my machine running Firefox did not. It seems that if you actually see a break, your browser may have different defining rules and its not just greater length than space in all cases. With that being said... I can live with a shy break in this circumstance. Just not sure how each browser decides what rules govern the usage of shy - but even under the same machine it seems that body text even on a small screen utilized the shy template. So much for the documentation template being clear cut! ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:45, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Anything you've said in this thread which you'd like to strike or modify? EEng (talk) 05:10, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

I just realized you altered my text again, that's shameful and violates the talk page guidelines. Seems you are intent on being disruptive - just as I informed you of the Shy template in the prior conversation, you really have selective "reading" and decide to grossly alter text as you wish. I had to pull out a machine from 15+ years ago to find an exception that is contrary to the documentation that I read from. Seems you desperately seek to make conflict or stroke your own ego because I went to try and support (with difficulty) your assumption in a manner of resolving past differences, but I guess the whole "fool me once" line is applicable. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:58, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

What are you talking about? EEng (talk) 15:00, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

• Yesterday, I was optimistic. Today, I'm disappointed. I agree with Chris that it was unhelpful for EEng to alter Chris' comments, and I'm pretty sure that's what Chris is talking about. Yesterday, when I saw the two boxes about "external video", what I thought was the following: yes, that makes good sense, because in the first box, it's helpful to hyphenate that very long word, whereas in the second box (and the third), there is nothing that really requires hyphenation. Today, I realize that EEng intended, instead, for me and others to look at the second box and think: oh, that needs hyphenating too, because the right margins look so ragged. But the problem is, what I actually thought yesterday, and continue to think today, is that the slight (in my opinion) raggedness of the right margins in the second box is so minor and trivial that I do not notice it, and do not care about it – and I see no reason to employ a template to solve such a non-existent problem. Indeed, on my reasonably large computer monitor, the second and third boxes display identically; the shy in box three does not change the display for me. So, EEng, that's my answer to your question to me. I agree with Chris, and I disagree with you. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:26, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

• First: In terms of my "altering" Chris' comment, are you referring this [115]? Oh, please. Here's what the guideline he linked says

Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page. Striking text constitutes a change in meaning, and should only be done by the user who wrote it or someone acting at their explicit request.

Cautiously editing or removing another editor's comments is sometimes allowed, but normally you should stop if there is any objection. If you make anything more than minor changes it is good practice to leave a short explanatory note such as "[possible libel removed by EEng (talk) 01:48, 21 July 2014 (UTC)]".

What I did is well within both the letter and spirit. If CG didn't like my putting some of his and my text in bold, he could just calmly say so, and I'd have found another, more awkward way to draw attention to what I wanted to draw attention to what that I was wanting to draw attention. To. We don't always need an indignant lecture. This kind of self-righteous overreaction is what runs all interactions with him off the rails sooner or later.

• Second: Please read the "added later" comment I inserted above (next to Box 3A).
• Third: No, I did not intend for you to look at Box 2 and say, "oh, that needs hyphenating too". What I wanted you to say was, "Yes, I see that hyphenation can work on words shorter than the line width." Unfortunately, because (as mentioned at Box 3A) it looks like you, Tfish, aren't seeing that because of your browser. But do you believe that some of us do see

effer-

vesence

in Box 3? Please confirm that. EEng (talk) 01:17, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

All along, I have seen the (soft) hyphen in Box 1, so whatever my browser is doing, it is allowing me to see it there. I still do not see the soft hyphen in Box 3, but of course I do see the hard hyphen in 3A. By the way, it occurs to me that the effects of hyphenation are exaggerated in 15 em boxes, as opposed to normal Wikimedia main text paragraphs. There is no need to "oh please" me. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:19, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

The title of this section is "How shy really works", and I fear we're moving on to "when to use shy" before that more fundamental question has been nailed down. [Hold a second for more... my breakfast is here.] EEng (talk) 16:43, 21 July 2014 (UTC) More later if needed -- looks like this may be getting resolved below. EEng (talk)

Enjoy your breakfast, perhaps with some fish sauce, and hopefully with no indigestion. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:16, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

A question When {{shy}} should be used

I have a question that I'd like to ask. I would obviously welcome hearing EEng's reply about it, but I'm also directing this question to Arjayay and ChrisGualtieri. Let's say, hypothetically, that future discussion (broader than what can occur here in user talk) leads to a new guideline about shy within MOS. It might say something like: if a word is greater than or equal to N letters long, the shy template is appropriate to use within the word, but if the word is fewer than N letters long, use of the shy template is discouraged. What would you consider to be an appropriate value for N? --Tryptofish (talk) 16:26, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind my retitling this section, to correspond to the section prior. Please, if you don't like that just say so and we'll work something out -- we won't need a diatribe on how shameful y behavior has been. Now then... Could we please suspend this just for a bit longer? There's a critical predicate issue (above) which has yet to be resolved. Jut for bit. EEng (talk) 16:43, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

My intended header for this subsection remains: "A question". EEng has, in effect, answered what I asked. I still would like to hear from Arjayay and ChrisGualtieri what they think about it, as I asked the question. How would the two of you define N, even though we all stipulate to the fact that EEng would see it differently? Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:06, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

So wait... are we agreeing now that these statements:

• "Shy template only works if you are running Wikipedia on a palm pilot with less line width than the actual word! Not ONE of EEng's "Shy Template" inclusions are needed or are ever going to work!"
• "shy only operates if the word in which it's used is too big to fit in one line of the browser window. If the word is shorter than that then shy won't do anything"

are untrue? EEng (talk) 17:52, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I haven't actually agreed to anything, and I'm not asking the other two editors to do that either. Please understand: determining that two editors would assign such-and-such a numerical value to N, changes nothing about Wikipedia consensus. I'm just taking the temperature here of what some editors think. I eventually expect to start an RfC that might establish a community consensus for N, but I'm not there yet. I'm still listening to what you (EEng) are saying.

For whatever one fish's opinion is worth, I'm inclined to regard both of those bulleted statements as incorrect. I tend to think that shy works, with some browser-to-browser and device-to-device variation, when the soft hyphen falls near the right margin, regardless of word length. I do not believe that your uses of shy are "never" capable of working. I do believe that you could be using it a lot less generously. I think that if the community eventually decides how generously is enough, then that will cut down on the kinds of disputes that you keep getting into. And my personal interest here has nothing to do with hyphens, but is instead about decreasing disputes. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:13, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

So, Arjayay and ChrisGualtieri, how would each of you define N if it were up to you? If it gets too difficult to get a word in edgewise here, please feel free to tell me instead at User talk:Tryptofish. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:13, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

No, let's keep it here. I'll be quiet a while. I want to hear the answers. EEng (talk) 18:22, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. I'm going to hold you to it. Really. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:27, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

It's time for everyone to move on.

I asked the question that I asked in the subsection above, and there has been plenty of time for the other two editors, both of whom have been actively making edits in the meantime, to have responded. (If I'm wrong about that, please don't hesitate to respond and tell me so.) My thanks to EEng for having put up with my comments during this discussion. I don't know, of course, why there weren't further responses. Maybe it's simply difficult to put an exact number on what I called N, and that's OK. But if it's difficult for editors who are interested enough to have come to EEng's talk and raise the issue, then I doubt that it will be practical for me to start a larger RfC and hope to get any sort of consensus, so I'm no longer planning to spend my time on that. And, otherwise, it feels to me just like when I tried to start a mediation case, and all of a sudden, the editors who were clamoring to ban EEng completely lost interest.

So I suggest that everyone should please just move on. This dispute isn't going to go anywhere. EEng, please make a good faith effort to consider using the shy template less abundantly, according to whatever is your personal best judgment in the circumstance, and please consider meeting other editors half way if they want to remove some or all of the templates. Otherwise, do whatever you want. Other editors, please find something else to complain about. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:43, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

I've been quite busy as of late, but this is fair enough - Wikipedia's biggest issue is behavior enforcement of long-standing issues that do not individually warrant sanctions. Though I am sure EEng (and many of us) are aware of the ArbCom sanctions surrounding that area. Wikipedia is a very big place and EEng is content to only do a handful of articles at best, its just EEng is not worth the time. Don't take it the wrong way, but I despise EEng's attitude and way of working - its just that finding 10-15 other people who care enough (all at once) to do something like an RFC/U is difficult. It also represents a colossal waste of man hours. We have editors on here that are notorious, but still are present because forcibly making them change their ways or removing them is a lose-lose situation. First for the process you have to go through and second for the actual good work that is lost by all parties involved to conduct that process. I explained why Meditation is bound to fail by EEng's refusal alone - and only ArbCom after lengthy month-long RFC/U is the only way to resolve it or by forcibly showing EEng the door. As long as its more headaches to deal with it in that way then simply ignoring EEng's poor behavior, the latter is the best option. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 16:52, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Given that it's difficult to reconcile "do not individually warrant sanctions" with "forcibly showing EEng the door", I'm afraid that I don't find what you said particularly helpful. When I offered mediation, it wasn't a one-sided matter of just some parties not wanting to participate. And it would have been easy enough to have set a bright-line parameter for when to use the shy template, and when not. If, for you, Chris, what works best is to truly ignore EEng, then I suggest that you do so. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:09, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

A message from a friend

EEng peeping into the world of tiny image captions

A barnstar for you!

	The "there, there" Barnstar
	Don't listen to the nasty bot.... Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 09:35, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

So that's what EEng looks like! --Tryptofish (talk) 23:00, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Have a care, fishman! EEng (talk) 03:50, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Are we talking about this: [116]? I hope you aren't threatening to push me into the fish sauce vat! --Tryptofish (talk) 20:53, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Good Humor
	This made me smile :) Gilderien Berate|List of good deeds 22:58, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Pearl's a swinger (allegedly)

I've used that about 10 times in the past 5 years and you're the first person who seems to have got it. EEng (talk) 06:36, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

We should use humour more often, DYK? Mine was also not noticed, it seems. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:22, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Funny bone: beware kids, this could happen to you if you get hooked on wikipedia! (Speaking of children.) - peda-goggles?

Sorry, I'm against humour and even humor, though I don't mind getting my funny bone tickled now and then. EEng (talk) 12:07, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

In the linked discussion, do you prefer the seriuz comments? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:19, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm wondering

...whether this page lacks dignity. EEng (talk) 14:41, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

...you're looking for the easy way out, I feel. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:56, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I worry people may misunderstand your reference unless they've seen my earlier edit summary [117] EEng (talk) 15:15, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

you and your beads, EEng. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:22, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Just because your reputation is already in the crapper. EEng (talk) 15:33, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

P.S. Article just linked contains disturbing reference to "floating ballcock". EEng (talk)

The answer is yes, it lacks dignity. As well as archiving. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:56, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Deckmyn vs Vandersteen

"Rejected" is a typo, I suppose? The template looks really strange, as if other things went wrong as well. Drmies (talk) 21:56, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Mystery solved [118] EEng (talk) 22:06, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

My wiki-meetup

I don't mind that generally as it's just banter between friends, but putting it on DYK talk where the interplay will be harder to come by (even if somebody cares to look) doesn't make DYK look very friendly to other female editors and encourages the sort of interactions from complete strangers that I'd prefer to avoid. (There, that's you told, don't make me come back with the cat). Belle (talk) 09:45, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry if I overstepped -- we wouldn't want to Belle the cat, would we? EEng (talk) 13:00, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Blinkered

http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/124517?redirectedFrom=Myopic#eid

The OED gives A. adj.

"1. Of, relating to, or affected with myopia; short-sighted, near-sighted."

but it goes on to say

"2. fig. Lacking foresight or intellectual insight; unimaginative." (first use 1894)

I was of course using it figuratively. Interestingly the OED gives as one of its quotes in support of A.1:

"1891 G. Meredith One of our Conquerors III. i. 8 Your Moralist is a myopic preacher."

So presumably the subject of the sentence really was short-sighted.

What I really meant and should have used was the figurative use of "blinkered" ("horse for courses").

-- PBS (talk) 18:54, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Of course. EEng (talk) 19:34, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Kenton Grua

Hi EEng, thank you for the c/e's and DYK gtg. Regards, GreenC 12:56, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Thumbs in infobox

Since it's the first time I see thumbs in infobox and someone to defend them, can you please elaborate a bit about it? there is an extra frame shown right in the page. Infobox person usually expects plain filename and not a template. -- Magioladitis (talk) 23:42, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I explained this in my edit summary: [119] i.e. WP:IMGSIZE provides that "syntax such as 300px simply sets a fixed image width, ignoring the user's base preference. In general, do not do this without very good reason; upright=scaling factor is preferred wherever sensible." It may be that some infoboxes allow this guideline to be met without embedding a thumbnail, but unfortunately infobox implementations are very inconsistent and this is the only way I know of that works universally; if you know of some other way by all means swap it in.

Now I have a question for you: what makes you think it's OK to remove something twice on the sole basis that you haven't seen anything like it before, especially since after the first removal its presence was carefully explained to you? EEng (talk) 00:21, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

The fact that your answer was unclear and I tried a different approach to satisfies us both. -- Magioladitis (talk) 12:19, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

It was perfectly clear and pointed you to WP:IMGSIZE, which explains clearly why upright should be used instead of px unless there's a good reason to the contrary. Your "another approach" was trying to do both at once, which is impossible and makes no sense at all. EEng (talk) 13:34, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Numbers in hooks

Hi, I noticed the change you suggested for my hook. I've been numeralizing numbers over 10 in hooks for many years according to MOS:NUMERAL. Yoninah (talk) 08:13, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

MOS:NUMERAL allows 19/nineteen and 30/thirty either way. It's a matter of taste. If you like it in numerals, that's fine -- I was just suggesting. EEng (talk) 14:44, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

July 2014

Your recent editing history at Template:Did you know/Preparation area 4 shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.
You should know better than to behave this way. Orlady (talk) 13:44, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

So should you. Honestly, can't you just let something fun and interesting, like a weird old word almost no one's seen in 200 years, live and grow? [120] EEng (talk) 13:48, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

[EC] The discussion is, as you know, occurring at Wikipedia talk:Did you know.

Your action -- introducing a word into a hook in prep that was not used in the article, is found in very few dictionaries, and was not discussed on the nomination page -- is indeed typical of the antics of some less mature Wikipedia contributors, but it is not in keeping with the established rules of DYK, except perhaps on April 1. --Orlady (talk) 13:52, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

See my prior response. EEng (talk) 13:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh dear, I see the balloon's gone up over this one. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:00, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

[At this point I'll just quote a bit of Orlady's post (above) here, adding my own bolding, since she's ludicrously determined to draw attention to her own silliness and fuss over the utterly trivial... Here goes:]

Your action -- introducing a word into a hook in prep that was not used in the article, is found in very few dictionaries, and was not discussed on the nomination page -- is indeed typical of the antics of some less mature Wikipedia contributors, but it is not in keeping with the established rules of DYK, except perhaps on April 1. --Orlady (talk) 13:52, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Where were you when your fellow less mature editors needed support for their antics? EEng (talk) 14:35, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I think we can all find out only too easily... tee-hee. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Um, something's just come up with "Article has not been created or expanded 5x or promoted to Good Article within the past 10 days" (using my DYK checker tool). Not sure what to do about that. Seems a real shame.Martinevans123 (talk) 20:14, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Um, um, what article are you talking about? EEng (talk) 20:24, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

The very lousy one, of course! Martinevans123 (talk) 21:00, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Martin, that DYKchecker tool is just a tool for use by humans. Humans aren't suppose to let the tool make decisions for them. Humans can -- and do, on a regular basis -- understand that articles are eligible for DYK if they were nominated within the specified time window. Eligibility doesn't automatically expire for nominations sitting on the noms page. --Orlady (talk) 21:22, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Martin, is your concern whether the nomination was within the idiotic 7-day limit? EEng (talk) 21:26, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes. But then I'm only human, alas. And only mostly idiotic. I'm guessing that it was indeed nominated within 7 days of its passing GA (if that was what's required). Martinevans123 (talk) 21:31, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I think the nom is timely. As you know I never pass up any opportunity to point out that the idiotic 7-day idiotic requirement is idiotically idiotic. So can you complete the review? EEng (talk) 21:36, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

All looks fine to me. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:43, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Special Barnstar
	When I left a message on the DYK talk page, I didn't expect much to come of it for at least 12 hours, but the deadly duo of EEng and Yoninah performed magnificently, I expected it would need some fixes from me, but you, Yoninah, and Belle fixed all the issues. Thank you very much for getting it done for me, I am very grateful. Best, Matty.007 07:00, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Special Barnstar
	For becoming the target of administrator Orlady. ...William 13:23, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Wow. Do you get a volume discount for the barnstars? EEng (talk) 18:49, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

WT:MOSNUM edits

I consider some of your edits (and edit summaries) non-productive and uncivil. Please respect other users and do not alter their comments. I also kindly suggest you to move your MOS change proposal to a separate topic, so that we can discuss it separately from the original question about the template. — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 06:44, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

As I hope you perceive already in the comments of others since you posted here, absolutely no one agrees with you on this. It's the MOSNUM discussion page and we're discussing MOSNUM. EEng (talk) 23:24, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I surely see that some people are more interested in your proposal than in the original specific question. So I decided to split the topics (commenting out our discussion). I hope, you do not have objections against that. — Mikhail Ryazanov (talk) 02:57, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I do object. See edit summary here [121] EEng (talk) 03:44, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

Devil fish

• "always appreciated and sometimes even efficacious": Thanks, I laughed out loud! --Tryptofish (talk) 23:28, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I hope you know it was absolutely sincere, though I think you expect more indulgence than is humanly possible. As someone said, "It is more trying to live with a saint than to be one" (you being the saint). Have you been to the museum lately? EEng (talk) 23:39, 1 August 2014 (UTC) P.S. News from the stacks.

Yes, I know that it was sincere. By the way, I'm a fish, not a saint, although I am doubtless trying, and have been told so many times by people who know me well. Don't think of it as indulgence, just as getting along with the general public. After all, this is Wikipedia, where even Randy from Boise may edit, and getting people pissed off at oneself is a much bigger waste of time than is simply holding one's tongue. (Your suggested ice cream flavor nearly sent me to the malfunctioning those facilities. And they cannot take it out through the door.) --Tryptofish (talk) 23:49, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Not sure how carefully you read the various footnotes but no malfunction -- the only toilets in the entire building, apparently, were at the Mass Ave entrance and somewhere near the main reading room. I've read much of the correspondence between the Titanic and Widener's dedication and it's amazing how intimate an operation was the design of the building. Basically Pres. Lowell and librarian Coolidge and Mrs. Widener and Mrs. Widener's architects worked out all the plans among themselves right down to the light fixtures in the stacks and the radiator valves. No committees, no signoffs, nuttin. The whole thing was designed in maybe 4 months. Another amusing thread is the combination of begging, flattery, threats, and horse-trading employed in scaring up temporary shelving for 600,000 books, between Gore's demolition and Widener's completion, in every possible nook and cranny of the university. EEng (talk) 04:56, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

"Zero tolerance" baseball

OK, it's not everyday that edit summaries on the DYK talk page make me laugh as much as I did. Thanks a bunch. :) I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 19:52, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. An unfortunate limitation of edit summaries as a medium for artistic expression is that once you've hit <enter> you're stuck. My regret here is that I didn't link to Can't Anybody Here Play This Game?. A pity. EEng (talk) 20:02, 4 August 2014 (UTC) But then Picasso (or someone) said form is liberating i.e. if I could revise it, I'd probably still be revising even now, instead of wasting my time usefully editing elsewhere on WP.

Obviously as a ninjarette (don't highlight that spellchecker, it's brilliant), I don't take three strikes to put somebody out. ("testing showed it was 1.7 times more injurious than a 30mph car crash with modern safety features". You can't argue with "testing") Belle (talk) 20:09, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Over here in the UK, we often used to play "zero tolerance rounders", but the shot-gun would always jam at just the wrong time! lol. 20:23, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Shot in the twitten...

Hi – belated thanks for suggesting a more intriguing DYK hook for Henry Michell Wagner! Also for your work at DYK in general. Your thinking was sound: twitten is such a local word that nobody outside Sussex would know it, let alone England. (There was once an article but it got redirected to alley, sadly.) Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 08:05, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

My pleasure. I mostly toil in obscurity, and it's nice to know someone out there appreciates these little adjustments. My only regret is that we couldn't say he was "shot in his twitten", which would sound even naughtier. EEng (talk) 16:36, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Good Humor
	For this God-tier pun - that is the first and probably the last papal decretal related pun I shall ever see. I'm afraid I do not have a witty responsionum :( Acather96 (click here to contact me) 20:50, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Trouble with upright

Hi, where is this showing as a problem? Many infoboxes are not expecting the full image syntax, just the image name, so some of the options are not valid. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:59, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

The syntax

|image = HarvardUniversity WidenerLibrary ExteriorFront c1915 cropped.jpg{{!}}upright=1.3

works fine at [122], but if you paste that exact text into the infobox at Eleanor_Elkins_Widener it doesn't respond to the upright parameter (try upright=3 in both articles), and thus I'm forced to use the image= {{image}} syntax you see at [123].

It's a shame because upright respect the user's size preference, which px doesn't, and I always use upright for imgs within the article, but I've struggled to get infoboxes to work with it. Any help you can give would be appreciated. EEng (talk) 22:13, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

The infoboxes are different. Widener Library uses {{Infobox library}}, but Eleanor Elkins Widener uses {{Infobox person}}. Both recognise an |image= parameter, and both push the value of that through to Module:InfoboxImage, but they do that in different ways. In particular, {{Infobox person}} has code to force |upright=1 even if you use {{!}}upright=1.3 Techniques which "hide" parameters by using {{!}} are somewhat hacky and not guaranteed to work, which is why many infoboxes (these two included) provide other parameters besides |image=, such as |image_size=|alt= etc. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:34, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

TLDR. I understand the infoboxes operate differently; I said that in the text I added to the WP:IMGSIZE. So is there, or is there not, a consistent way to use upright in infoboxes (other than |image = {{image}} or can only geeks figure out how to do it? EEng (talk) 22:46, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

P.S. Looks like this [124] works, at least for infobox person. EEng (talk) 23:00, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

No, there is no consistent method. But I really don't think that your extra note is on the right page. Wikipedia:Image use policy#Displayed image size is concerned with images in text, not images in formatted boxes. It also deals primarily with images that are specified using the full image syntax. A recent edit of yours added the {{image}} template, but boxed images can be formed using several other methods, such as the many different techniques used in infoboxes. Even between infoboxes that use a "standard" technique like Module:InfoboxImage, there is variation, as we have seen. WP:IUP is for general considerations - the place to point out quirks of the image syntax of an infobox is in the documentation for that specific infobox. --Redrose64 (talk) 07:05, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, I agree it's a bit awkward, but if we're going to encourage use of upright we need to also help them not waste time trying to apply it in certain situations where it's problematic. Give a me a day or two to think of a different approach. EEng (talk) 18:45, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

I've reverted that change you made to IUP. The evidence is that there is no problem with upright=, there is only an issue as to how specific templates implement it. -- Netoholic @ 19:38, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Our goal is to help editors use upright, and if there are cases where trying to add it will cause confusion and frustration it's our job to help editors deal with that -- it doesn't matter whether the "fault" is with upright itself or with the templates. Why not chill a bit while I do a few experiments? EEng (talk) 19:45, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

I've already fixed {{Infobox library}}. How about you chill while you experiment. Two people here have objected to your change to an official policy page... that means its your turn to establish a change to that page. -- Netoholic @ 20:11, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, except one of those two left the change in place, so maybe it's not such a big deal either way for a day or two. Calm down. Anyway, of the infoboxes under discussion library wasn't the problem -- it was person. But if it helps you sleep at night to revert, be my guest. EEng (talk) 20:17, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

As predicted. [125] EEng (talk) 20:19, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Infobox_person just needs an {{{image_upright|}}} parameter added so that the default can be overridden without resorting to hard-coded px size (ie image_size= should be deprecated). I know why they have it at upright=1 now, because most images of people are in portrait orientation. I'd say take it up on the talk page there. Let me know and I'll back you up and even provide a sandbox version if needed. -- Netoholic @ 20:31, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry if I seemed pissy and thanks for seeing past that. Look, is there something we can do to move all infoboxes toward accepting upright? Arguments like "it's hardcoded at 1 because most images of people are portrait orientation" show a complete misunderstanding of what upright is for -- see WP:IMGSIZE. There are lots of reasons for using upright <> 1, other than portrait versus landscape. Unfortunately I won't be able to help with the technical aspects (without a large investment of time to come up to speed) but if you're saying it will help for me to get the ball rolling via a post at Talk:infobox person I'll do that. EEng (talk) 20:38, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

I think the main barrier is the name of the setting being called "upright" rather than something logical like "scale". For example, I'm trying to implement it in Template:Infobox software and have met confused resistance on that talk page. I know what upright is for - to respect user preference - but the setting in the context of the confined space of an infobox does result in it being an issue of portrait vs landscape, since there is a give-and-take between making the image large enough without pushing the data in the infobox down too far, and finding the "right" default value on each particular infobox can be a challenge. -- Netoholic @ 20:48, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, I suppose if we want to be really bold we could first propose that scale be added to the general WP:EIS as a synonym for upright, and then just use scale in new applications like infoboxes, to save confusion. I don't care too much what the default scale/upright is in any given situation, just so long as it can be overridden. (BTW, though, if proof was ever needed of the insanity of many of the people tinkering in the bowels here, it's that if you specify upright with no parameter, you get the equivalent of upright=0.75 instead of upright=1. What kind of mind would come up with that?)

So what to do next? I do think it's a worthy goal to make upright generally usable -- it's amazing how completely confused people are, and angry about it Talk:Phineas_Gage/Archive_3#Image_widths. EEng (talk) 21:07, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Well it was designed to address "upright" images (ie portrait orientation) so that's probably why it defaults to .75, though its like it was a half-incomplete line of thought. Oh and if you want to see more irrational anger about image widths, check out Template talk:Infobox software#removal of hardcoded image px sizes. Its almost useless. Though there was one good thing out of that conversation, a link to mw:Requests for comment/Square bounding boxes that shows some of the issues we've talked about here might someday get addressed. -- Netoholic @ 08:33, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi EEng!

Thanks for your help on 100 prisoners problem and Jonathan Quinn Barnett. I do want to keep up the QPQ work, as it's fun. Couple of questions. First, I found some earlier history of COI submission of DYK, and found that it was connected to the history of the page where I got the idea that it might be encouraged. But these two histories merge and then don't go anywhere else. So, it seems that there is no reason for me to take the view of nominating DYK on my own new articles. Do you mind if I nominate DYK on my (hypothetical) good articles, or use WP:COOP to find uninvolved editors willing to review new COI articles for nomination? Second, we already have had a good agreement that CitizenShipper is notable and we worked out most of the content concerns that were brought up so far. Can you work with me on what concerns you have about the RS that appear and how they are used? I will help with DYK when I can. Frieda Beamy (talk) 23:19, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Tabnit

Hi, thanks for your time on this one. I've found a very detailed new source which i've added to the article, and made a suggestion on the DYK page.

Am quite keen not to misrepresent the King here, as if we cross him we will apparently "have no posterity all thy life under the sun, and no resting-place with the departed."

Oncenawhile (talk) 19:33, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's an unusual but not unknown class of risk when working in DYK -- see [126]. EEng (talk) 19:48, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

"Delusions, irresistible envy, enslavement, paralysis, or death" huh? Yep, seems to describe the life-cycle of a wikipedian pretty well. Oncenawhile (talk) 20:08, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Sad to say, but now that you point it out that's true. I'll be in touch with a new or revised hook. EEng (talk) 21:35, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Luddites

See what I mean ;-) Dondervogel 2 (talk) 22:07, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

User:EEng#A_rolling_stone_gathers_no_MOS EEng (talk) 22:11, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Hawksmoor

You didn't like the picture for this. I didn't see the problem but de gustibus non est disputandum so I have added a gallery of other choices. Enjoy. Andrew (talk) 13:45, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but I never eat in fields full of spital -- unhygienic. EEng (talk) 13:51, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Love it

That's all (in case you were mystified by a "Thanks" that was actually a "Like"). Belle (talk) 00:38, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. I'm particularly pleased because understatement is not one of my stronger modes of expression. BTW you might be amused by [127] and [128]. EEng (talk) 01:24, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

DYK for HOP Ranch

EEng, thanks for reviewing my DYK nomination. I've edited the article to address your comments and hope you can take a look. I believe I've addressed your comments. Thanks again! Dnforney (talk) 14:16, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

El Loco and Euro-Fighter coasters

I've made the changes you suggested to the articles for the 10-DYK nomination. Best, IronGargoyle (talk) 13:34, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

3RR at Phineas Gage

Please be careful about WP:3RR. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:47, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

There is currently a discussion at ANI regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is EEng and edit warring. Thank you. —Bgwhite (talk) 07:39, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Today's drama-fest will begin at 1400 hours. Refreshments and snacks will be provided for the peanut gallery.Turkish Delight also available.

Without wishing to comment on who's right and who's wrong, I threw together User:Ritchie333/Hit and run editors today, and one point I made in it is that the typical Wikipedia reader won't be too fussed about what citation templates are used in an article. I can barely master {{sfn}}, and even then it's akin to drawing a pentagram on the floor and hope the formatting doesn't cause errors or get reverted. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:17, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Not content with getting a metal bar stuck in your head, you now seem to be responsible for ruining a perfectly good ancient Turkish city! Shame on you. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:20, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

ANI is a cool place to hang out. Most people there find it so cool that's the only place they do hang out. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:23, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I have a good sense of humor, but I don't find this one funny. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:39, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I do hope you're not suggesting it's some kind of piranha pool. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:42, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

[Referring to caption at right] Dammit, I'm going out. I hate for my tickets to go to waste. Know anyone who can use them? To answer (Ritchie) your question re GA (not FA) delisting, see [129] which incidentally makes some blushworthy comments.

But seriously, I'd be very happy for you to comment on who's right and who's wrong. .

EEng (talk) 17:54, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Oppose: that's how we do things round here when asked for a comment (I know you didn't ask me to comment, but that's par for the course too) Belle (talk) 18:02, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

• Further to Ritchie: Your essay is bang on. You might want to draw on this by Beyond My Ken (you'll find it linked under Thoughts or something from his userpage):

The flip side of "ownership" is the problem of editors who come to an article with a particular agenda, make the changes they want to the page according to their preconceived notions of what should be, and then flit off to their next victim, without ever considering whether the page really needed the change they made, or whether the change improved the article at all. These hit and run editors certainly never take the time to evaluate the article in question, consider what its needs are, and spend the time necessary to improve its quality. Their editing is an off-the-rack, one-size-fits-all proposition, premised on the idea that what improves one article, or one type of article, will automatically improve every other article or type of article. In the grand scheme of things, "ownership" may cause conflicts when two editors take the same degree of interest in a particular article, and disagree with it, but mostly it helps to preserve what is best in an article. On the other hand, hit-and-run editing, including the plague of hit-and-run tagging that's defaced so many Wikipedia articles, is a much more serious problem, because it's more difficult to detect, frequently flies under the flag of the MoS (and therefore is presumed at first blush to be legitimate), and is more widespread. Wikipedians should worry more about those who hit-and-run, and less about those who feel stewardship towards the articles they work so hard on. 03:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

EEng (talk) 18:09, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

BMK's thoughts page is generally brilliant - here's another one : "Start with an article that looks like shit and reads like it was written by a high-school dropout. A hundred edits later, take another look at the article – and it still looks and reads like shit. That's because the intervening edits did useful things like replace m-dashes with n-dashes, capitalized the first letters of template names, added interwiki links, vandalized and reverted the vandalism, made sure that bold text was being used as laid down in the manual of style, removed extraneous blank lines and miscellaneous other actions which did not, in any fundamental way, improve the article." Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:20, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Thin-skinned admin blocks for criticism of himself!

See section immediately following -- so thin-skinned he even made this [130] edit! EEng (talk) 05:52, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

August 2014

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 48 hours for attempting to harass other users. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the following text below this notice: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}. However, you should read the guide to appealing blocks first.  Bgwhite (talk) 05:36, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I asked you to stop your name calling. You did the same exact thing at ANI and went on to call editors "self-satisfied roving enforcers". Disagreeing with editors is one thing, but belittling editors is another. Bgwhite (talk) 05:42, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Noting that you are blocking for comments regarding you, I'll let the great John Stuart Mill try to explain to you how ridiculous you're making yourself look:

Before quitting the subject of freedom of opinion, it is fit to take notice of those who say, that the free expression of all opinions should be permitted, on condition that the manner be temperate ... If the test be offence to those whose opinion is attacked, I think experience testifies that the offence is given whenever the attack is telling and powerful, and that every opponent who pushes them hard, and whom they find it difficult to answer, appears to them, if he shows any strong feeling on the subject, an intemperate opponent.

In other words, it stings because it's so true, you're mad because you can't think of anything to say in response, and as the person criticized you shouldn't take it upon yourself to decide whether the criticism is appropriate.

I doubt I'll appeal this since there's more use letting it stand as a 48-hour monument to your thin-skinned pettiness. Along those lines I'd appreciate it if you'd note this block in the ANI discussion -- unless you'd prefer others not see your action side by side with the "offense" that prompted it.

EEng (talk) 06:30, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

P.S. Will you be blocking Nyttend as well? After all, he called you an "amateur" [131] -- that must have stung pretty bad too. Or that mean Ritchie333, who called you "a stereotypical Wikipedian, who makes a large amount of similar changes to pages, despite having had no evidence of being previously interested in any of them" (not by name, of course, but then I didn't call you by name either -- you just seemed to know it was you that I was referring to -- funny, isn't it). Ritchie also mentioned that "One of the reasons hit and run editors have gained prominence in [the area of trivial formatting changes] is that writing the encyclopaedia has become more difficult. The quality of work has increased in some areas, which makes it harder to contribute without good knowledge in the subject matter and sources. Fiddling with the formatting seems to be a suitable alternative passtime". That must really hurt. You should definitely block Ritchie333 for that!

EEng requesting in your talk page that other people get blocked is not very nice. -- Magioladitis (talk) 07:20, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Magioladitis, if you actually think that what I wrote was a suggestion that Nyttend or Ritchie333 (or, for that matter, Beyond My Ken or BedsBookworm) be blocked, then words fail. EEng (talk) 14:26, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

But I'm not sure if blocking someone is that much nicer? I certainly wouldn't condone "personal attacks", but goodness me, compared to what I've been called on occasion, this looks like a rather mild but candid observation. Could Bgwhite be regarded as "involved" in any way here? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:52, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Martinevans123, perhaps you'll be kind enough to post a mention of this block at the ANI thread. I want it in the record there before it gets archived. Bgwhite apparently prefers to work under cover of darkness. EEng (talk) 14:26, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I have already noted there. Yes, he may be a bit of a "rover" (allegedly). But at least he doesn't go sneaking off to the dentist for some off-wiki relaxation! Martinevans123 (talk) 14:34, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Just for the record, a former member of Arbcom called this block "outrageous" [132]. EEng (talk) 02:09, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

@Bgwhite: probably does not agree with your continued snark and attacks, but I do not think changing the header to "Admin blocks for criticism of himself" is appropriate here. It does not seem to follow the talk page guidelines and I've warned you repeatedly for making gross abuses of my own text. Please stop inflaming the situation - this is getting beyond distasteful. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:59, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Please don't change words I wrote. For the record, I had edited the ANI discussion three times and not on the thread you responded too. You were responding to John and Typto's comments. The examples you gave were John's and you took a swipe at John. Your words were directed at all editors editing Gage. Other admins at the ANI page said you did a blockable offense. At least now you are directing your hate at me instead of Chris, John, Typto and everybody else. Just drop it and edit Phineas Gage‎ with Chris. Bgwhite (talk) 08:05, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Just for the record: No editor contested the blocked while it was active and no unblock has been requested. Eeng remained blocked for 48 hours. -- Magioladitis (talk) 13:02, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, missed these comments until now, and they bear responding to, just for the record.

• As already explained above I was perfectly happy to have been blocked by a thin-skinned bully like Bgwhite. And many more editors at ANI said I did not "do a blockable offense" (to use the words of an editor who has trouble writing English) and scolded Bgwhite for acting in clear violation of WP:INVOLVED.
• My words were not directed at all editors editing the Gage article, but rather a small group of self-certain editors who tag-team actual content contributors to maintain their freedom to impose nonexistent "rules" reflecting nothing but their desire to feel they're doing something useful -- regardless of whether or not they actually are.
• Magioladitis' clueless non sequiturs, showing he comprehends nothing that came before, make more obvious how blissfully insular is the mindless echo chamber of mutual cheerleading in which this group operates.

EEng (talk) 05:52, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, I disagree with that. -- Magioladitis (talk) 22:33, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

It's almost artistic -- the way in which your spare, innocent obliviousness makes my point more eloquently than I could ever hope to make it myself. EEng (talk) 05:14, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

No problem. Do you think you have to be blocked for using the expression "thin-skinned bully" or not? -- Magioladitis (talk) 09:20, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

No, I don't have to be blocked -- what a weird way you have of expressing yourself -- but if a thin-skinned bully wanted to further underscore what a thin-skinned bully he is, that would be a great way for him to do it. EEng (talk) 18:28, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

License to female

Re: DYK prep 2. I was told - by the horse people - that "female" is a term better suited to animals than women, was just invited to a project "women writers" and see that term in a category. How about "licensed women architect?" --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:04, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Take a look now. EEng (talk) 07:58, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

You deserve extra praise for edit summaries, - but not for talk page archiving ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:07, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Seen in Prep 2

Hey there, saw your tweak in prep 2 of "who undergoes" to "undergoing". It struck me that using "undergoing" makes that hook suggest that the required education is received while the person undergoes the procedure. I know that what you meant there is grammatical and a valid reading of the sentence, but I think the more natural reading of that syntax gives the confusing interpretation I suggest. What do you think? —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 08:05, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I thought of that, but dismissed the thought. I guess you're right. EEng (talk) 08:12, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

BTW, you don't need my permission to fix something I "fixed". EEng (talk) 08:21, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Just thought I'd ask in case you saw the opposite of what I had (or if I just needed to get off WP and start my morning coffee). —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 09:41, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Meter and a yard

An approximation surely close enough — for land mines, hand grenades and horseshoes. Good edit. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:59, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

What's a Meter] (see your section heading)? EEng (talk) 22:01, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Some style

"The Manual of Style is not yet an education-free zone." I love your style. Cheers. Jonathunder (talk) 18:45, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Opinion is split on that, with no middle ground -- it seems an editor can either love my style, or burn with hatred for it, with no middle ground ever. Submitted for your consideration:

• [133] vs. [134]
• [135] -- scroll back to see how that started, and be sure to continue into the next section ("Humor... on Wikipedia?").

EEng (talk) 19:56, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Not every teenage girl lets you read her diary! ("blush") Martinevans123 (talk) 20:32, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

The phrase in dispute was is remarkably small, which leads me hope the teenage girl wasn't someone he was dating -- though that would explain the autonomic hostility. EEng (talk) 22:19, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

We shall have to call you "Lupin", I fear. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:24, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Wilkins/Borges

Thanks for making improvements to The Analytical Language of John Wilkins. Part of the reason I created this one was to watch the DYK process unfold (it's an area of WP I have very little experience with) so I hope you'll entertain a newbie question: there are now a couple different hook proposals at the nomination page. What happens to determine which one is the one that sticks? Just add a comment of endorsement to the nom page itself or is there another venue for that? Thanks. --— Rhododendrites ^talk |  15:41, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The choice of hook is determined somewhat haphazardly. First, during the nom discussion often some or all-but-one get struck for one or another reason -- as the original nominator your preferences get a bit of extra weight in that. Next, the reviewer may not want to bother verifying several hooks, so may pick a smaller subset, or just one, to verify. Finally, if there are still 2 or more in play, then the "promoter" picks one to send to the main page. So if you much prefer one, or much dislike one, say so. Keep your eye on the nom page.

Sooner or later the article on Celestial Emporium should be merged in to your article, but that can wait.

I wrote a very long paper on Wilkins' Real Character and Philosophical Language about eight years ago, my thesis being that almost everything you read about Wilkins is baloney, because almost no one had access to the actual work until a facsimile was published some years ago. Foucault, who didn't read it, babbles on based on Borges, who didn't read it -- at least he admits it -- and was working from a bunch of other people who didn't read it either. Subbiondo's paper is complete nonsense -- absolutely shameful -- he makes a fool of himself. The best overall by far is Andrade [136], which you can find in a few anthologies. But if this interests you at all, there's no substitute for going through the book itself [137] -- it's amazing. Wilkins is the greatest genius and most wonderful, gentle person you never were taught about in school. This is his magnum opus, but everything he wrote is worth reading, I promise you. EEng (talk) 18:21, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip re: DYK. I'm bookmarking the link for later. It's not directly relevant to the work I'm doing now (and I have enough of it :) ), but I find these "universal language" ideas fascinating. Is that your interest or did you come to Wilkins another way? I came across Wilkins before I read Borges or Foucault, while trying to learn more about Leibniz's universal character. Unfortunately, I never got around to reading either of the primary texts (Leibniz or Wilkins), but they're on my "down the road" list... --— Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:50, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

"Too many pies, that's you problem...!"

Did you know that ... Kim Jong-un the Supreme Commander of the Korean People's Army and beloved leader of North Korea, is so fat that he's fractured his ankles? (in fact ... "North Korean workers at the Kaesong Industrial Complex in North Korea receive Choco Pies as part of their compensation"). DYK beckons? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:10, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Wait... are you saying there's a viable (new, etc.) DYK in there? Or just trying to whet my appetite? I've mostly been tinkering hooks in prep for grammar, fmt, and plain good fun-ness. For a while I when through new noms offering modified hooks but it's too taxing, especially because of the stupid system under which noms are organized by the date the article was expanded etc., instead of simply by when the nom was posted -- so you have to search for new things among a week of old stuff. Have you been watching the idiotic discussions about whether to increase the burn rate? [138].

Listen, on PG, it would be really nice if you could participate. There's a detail of Tfish's proposal he's going to have to mock up so we can see it, but after that, when the two approaches are clear we could really use a 3O. I feel he and I are talking past each other somehow (I just don't see what problem he's solving, and there are clearly downsides to what he's proposing) so could I ping you when he and I have agreed the two approaches are being presented with crystal clarity? EEng (talk) 18:03, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

But at least you are talking?! Wow 3O!! .. is that like 3OH!3 (featuring Katy Perry) ... or maybe related to the I-THREES (as seen on Tuff Gong TV!). Martinevans123 (talk) 18:28, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Tfish and I never really had a problem. I think I pissed him off because I didn't knuckle under to the know-nothings in the interests of the greater good, as he saw it, plus I lost my temper a few times at you-know-who. EEng (talk) 18:45, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it was because you won't knuckle under to the know-somethings. But I agree we never really had a problem between us. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:35, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Anyone who says that a caption can't say "Note detached bone flap above forehead" on the grounds of a complete misinterpretation of MOS:NOTED is a know-nothing (in the sense of someone who wants to pretend that they don't know, or don't understand, something when they really do -- and just can't bear to admit it.) I think you missed the origin of all the animosity from this crew over this past year, which started with a string of discussions like [139]. This was my first exposure to the high-handed, semi-informed, hyper-rigid self-certainty of this particular breed of editor. (And note -- oops, there's that word again! -- I only made the OP and the contraption came to life all on its own!) EEng (talk) 20:59, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia, EEng, the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Even you. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:06, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

ah yes, those, lesser breeds without the Law... Martinevans123 (talk) 21:10, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring on Eleanor Elkins Widener

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Eleanor Elkins Widener. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Please be particularly aware, Wikipedia's policy on edit warring.

Also, your statements like "have consistently done more harm than good" should be addressed somewhere else. Not edit summary. Bladesmulti (talk) 13:22, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

You appear to be part of a WP:TAGTEAM#Tag_team_characteristics, specifically in the sense of two editors (for now -- I expect more will arrive shortly out of nowhere per the gnome grapevine) "Working together to circumvent the three revert rule". It's not my job to fix your others' tools, and editors don't have to put up with their time being wasted by tools that break things while attempting to make "fixes" of little or no value in the first place. As recently as a week ago [140] AWB make one of its usual boneheaded fixes, and I have no reason to believe "all issues have been addressed", as your fellow tagteamer claimed. The bots deny template is there for a reason, and this is a reason. Why don't you go do good elsewhere on the project? EEng (talk) 13:30, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

See my involvement with RSNs and RSN board. I remove unreliable sources wherever I see them. "titanic-titanic dot com" has been used on E.E. Widener, I was going to remove that inflammatory source but before I could, I failed twice as this page was having edit conflicts. I have never used a automated tool, those who do, they mostly edit those pages about which they have no idea, that means none of the content is going to be harmed. There's no proof that I have been favorable to these bots or their operator. I don't even know any of them except Bgbot19 and you are edit warring over a useless tag. Bladesmulti (talk) 13:40, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

See [141] Bladesmulti (talk) 13:55, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) My abject apologies. I've had numerous bad experiences with packs of these "fixers" tagteaming to assert utterly useless, and often format-breaking, changes, to maintain their OCD view of a "tidy" Wikipedia. It was finally suggested to me to use bots deny to avoid such trouble but, apparently, these types can't stand any threat to their hegemony and so want to remove that too. You had the bad luck to walk in on that, and I jumped to the wrong conclusion. Again, sorry.

I appreciate your attention to sourcing in the article. You may have noticed that I indicated my own concerns about titanic-titanic.com via the tag. It's used to support three points: that the valet perished, her burial place, and one of the two uncertain birthdates for her, and I think it's OK to leave those until better sources are found for those. This not being a BLP, and these statements being non-contentious, I think they could stay quite a while even tagged just , so I figure that citing a weak source (with ) at least gives someone (like you?) a place to start finding a RS that can be substituted. EEng (talk) 14:07, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

21 September 1861 is fine,[142], [143] but 21 May 1862 isn't. Bladesmulti (talk) 07:33, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

October 2014

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 72 hours for edit warring and violating the three-revert rule, as you did at Eleanor Elkins Widener. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the following text below this notice: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}. However, you should read the guide to appealing blocks first.

During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection.  Bgwhite (talk) 20:26, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

EEng (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

---

Request reason:

See the article history: [144]

• Admin Bgwhite is WP:INVOLVED, as he and I have had trouble before re this very article [145] (though I have never told him or anyone else to "fuck off") and on other articles.
• I repeatedly asked that the question be raised at the article's Talk page, per BRD. [146][147][148]
• Blocks are meant to be preventative, not punitive. Bgwhite blocked me [149] seven hours after my last edit, and after another editor had restored the article to "my" version [150]. The article continues to remain in "my" version, with no attempt to change it by anyone including WP:INVOLVED admin Bgwhite. The block serves no purpose.

EEng (talk) 09:11, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Decline reason:

Your edits weren't exempt from the rules on edit warring, because you weren't removing a copyright violation, a libelous statement, or vandalism. In this context, you were edit warring, and considering this is your second block, 72 hours is a reasonable duration. PhilKnight (talk) 07:52, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

---

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

{{unblock|1=The unblock decline did not address any of the points I raised in my request, which are, again:

• That the blocking admin acted in contravention of WP:INVOLVED, given his prior disputes with me regarding that very page and other pages.
• That the block was in no way preventative, in that it was made 7 hours after the last relevant edit to the page (during time no other admin saw fit to take action, and despite an ANEW thread being open all that time -- reinforcing the stink of INVOLVED already mentioned).

}}

Discussion

EEng it's not "your" version. Any block to bots that you added was removed exactly because it served no reason as I explained you but you kept reverting me and another editor. The nobots tag on the page is only to prevent bad typo fixing by editors who won;t understand the template you put inside a word. In fact, the template inside the word is not needed since the browser takes care (or at least should care care) of this. -- Magioladitis (talk) 09:27, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Bottom line, the template you were warring to remove was restored by another editor, after which you suddenly dropped your efforts to remove it. Whether the template has the precise same list of bots as before doesn't matter -- it lists the bots that have recently done damage to the article, which is all I was trying to maintain. (Talk page discussion might have come up with a narrower list of bots to block, if that was your concern, but you declined my repeated invitations.)

Please stop trying to prove who's right and go spend your time fixing the bugs in your scripts that are the cause of all this wasted effort. EEng (talk) 14:25, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Wow, a second block by Bgwhite. What a coincidence. Do you have any idea how user:Bladesmulti learnt of your lil spat with Magioladitis in order to revert you 11 minutes after your second revert of Magioladitis? It seems like another coincidence. Did they participate in any related discussions about the article? p.s., for future reference, 3RR is a fairly strict limit; once you hit it, you need to take a break or take the matter to talk / another venue for more people to see the dispute and help one way or another, irrespective of right or wrong, unless the article is a BLP or very clear-cut vandalism. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 16:39, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, based on my conversation with Bladesmulti in the section just above this one (#Edit_warring_on_Eleanor_Elkins_Widener) it appears he walked in on the dustup with Magioladitis quite by accident (though I think it would have been better had he stayed out of the firefight, not knowing the background).

Of course you're right about 3RR, strictly speaking, but you'll notice that seven hours after a 15-minute edit war only Magioladitis' old pal Bgwhite saw fit to issue a (72-hour!) block over such a silly matter.

It's also too bad that an unblock request sits for days with no resolution either way. I'm not ashamed to be blocked by a thin-skinned bully like Bgwhite (see #Thin-skinned_admin_blocks_for_criticism_of_himself.21 -- and even less ashamed to be blocked by him twice, since it shows his colors that much more clearly -- but naturally I'd prefer that the record reflect the WP:INVOLVED, punitive, and angry nature of his action.

For those who don't know, Magioladitis is the maintainer (or one of the maintainers) of AWB, which does a lot of good on certain types of articles (those which haven't gotten careful human attention to their formatting) but also a certain amount of bad on other articles (those which have been carefully formatted by humans, sometimes in ways outside the experience of editors like Magioladitis and Bgwhite). What seems to have upset him (or them) is that the article carried a {{bots}} template asking that AWB and certain other bots, which have made damaging "fixes" to the article in the past, spend their time elsewhere. I suspect his hacker's ego is hurt by the idea that his scripts don't have free rein to roam as they please, and his edit summaries claiming "any problems have been addressed" and "tools work after last changes I [made to?] the page" are typical of assurances heard from inexperienced programmers everywhere: "Now I'm sure my code works -- I found the last bug -- trust me!" He doesn't seem to understand that no tool is appropriate for every situation. That's only my speculation of course. EEng (talk) 18:26, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

As I wrote, with page's current state, no AWB bot will make any unwanted changes. And in fact the bots tags is completely useless there since the only possible problem is a typo fix bug. Since typo fixing is only made by human editors and it is known to be imperfect (for instance, in some cases, there are typos on purpose or "typos" are actually rare words) editors should get any edit before the save. AWB's typo fixing is more of suggestions and less strict rules. I never wrote that I guarantee that AWB does not have bugs and it won't make unwanted changes in future version of that page (or any other page). It is very likely that the entire problem was a misunderstanding but please assume good faith in the future. -- Magioladitis (talk) 21:37, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

What is the block length of 72 hours based on, exactly? If this repeated re-addition was based on some kind of lack of understanding in the part of EEng, is a 72-hour block meant to be more effective in "re-educating" him than a shorter block? Surely the link provided to User:Bgwhite's edit of 22 August shows he was very clearly WP:INVOLVED? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:51, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

I can't speak on behalf of Bgwhite but just note that the time period is the next bigger after the previous 48-hour block. I do not like if the discussion goes there. I think the best is to find a way to work altogether and I see EEng not helping on this direction. There was no reason to go for 5-6 reverts as there is not reason not to believe me that AWB won't affect the page negatively for the time being since I have tested it before removing the tag. If we all assume good faith and co-operate we will be more productive. Have you seen me making any large scale changes in any of the pages EEng works? No. Because EEng does a wonderful job, as fasr as I have seen, in finding sources. I respect their work but I would like to see a page in a state other editors can get involved too. Anyway, I do not want to open a completely new conversation about everything right now. -- Magioladitis (talk) 22:05, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

I've been feeling awful about this since it happened, and I haven't known what exactly to say until now, but I feel like there are a few things I want to say. As EEng knows, 3RR is a serious thing, and I think the final straw was that EEng made two reverts after the notice on his talk page. There was a report at WP:3RRN, and administrators pay close attention to whether or not the reverting stopped after the editor was notified. It seems to me that if Bgwhite had not made the block, some other administrator would have. (And I don't think that requests to go to talk in edit summaries of reverts make the reverts alright.) EEng, please, we need you here at Wikipedia, and you are too smart to get sucked into these edit wars. Please get a hold on the reverting, before we lose you completely. I'm really worried, and I really mean that. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:16, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Well No, Magioladitis, I must admit that I haven't really been monitoring your interactions with EEng. And I only really commented as it's been quite a while since he requested, along what appear to be very sensible lines, a review of his block. Perhaps he'll get a review after about 71 and a half hours have elapsed? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:28, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

I just looked at the list of requests for block review, and there's a backlog, with 31 such open requests right now, so I doubt that there is a personal snub here. But I have an idea. EEng, just in case you want something to do while restricted to this talk page, how about archiving old threads? Otherwise, you might be going for the world record for the longest user talk page! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:34, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

I just left a note at WP:AN about the backlog, so maybe that will get some attention. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:27, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Martinevans123 pinged me.

• Yes, I've blocked EEng before. That doesn't mean I cannot block him again. I'm not aware of any interaction I've had with him since 7th September. That was to complain that EEng is changing my messages on his talkpage, which he has since changed again (so, warning, EEng has done and may edit by messages here). The interaction before that was August 30th. I believe EEng has a fixation on me, but not the other way around.
• I was contacted by two people about EEng's edit war. They also made me aware of this thread at WP:AN3. So, if I didn't make a block, someone else reading AN3 would have.
• I've blocked three people (including EEng) in the past week for 3RR, two 72-hour blocks and a 24-hour block.

a) The other two were on the same article. One person was recently blocked for edit warring, thus I did a 72-hour block. The other person had a clean slate, thus a 24-hour block.

b) I did 72-hours for EEng because: He was recently blocked, he reverted 5 times, he reverted three different people, his was disparaging in his edit summaries ("your vague assurances are worthless") and he disregarded the instructions at {{nobots}} on how to apply the template. Remove half of these and it would still warrant 72-hour block. From WP:EW, "Where a block is appropriate, 24 hours is common for a first offense; administrators tend to issue longer blocks for repeated or aggravated violations, and will consider other factors, such as civility and previous blocks."

• Unlike what EEng said in his block appeal, the article is not currently at "his" version. This is his last version. This is the current version. They are different.
• EEng did ask the question to be raised on the talk page. However, EEng never did raise it on the talk page. On his 5th revert, he did ask this to be discussed again. After the 3rd revert, one doesn't continue to revert, they should ask the question on the talk page. EEng wasn't following what he asked of others.
• Bgwhite (talk) 22:50, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

@Bgwhite: You said: "I was contacted by two people about EEng's edit war." I don't see those contacts on your user talk page. Can you tell us anything about those contacts? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:14, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Tryptofish, both were by email. Both were sent while I was asleep. I do believe they were sent so I would block EEng. Who/What/Why is not relevant. Admins get notices all the time about somebody's alleged bad behavior. I've been sent emails and notifications multiple times the past month about EEng and not acted on it. This time, he clearly broke the rules, which is why I intervened. If EEng didn't break the rules, we wouldn't be here and that is the only thing to consider. Bgwhite (talk) 23:42, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

@Bgwhite: Thanks very much for the reply. I agree that it doesn't matter who the people were, and I have no doubt about admins getting lots of e-mails. But I think that I can safely infer that the two persons weren't merely spamming every admin they could think of. They likely contacted you because you were the blocking admin the previous time. In no way do I think that this fact affects the validity of the block, so please don't think that I am implying that. However, it does speak to how you are becoming perceived as the admin who is receptive to blocking EEng. For that reason, I recommend that you consider yourself to be "involved" in the future. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:49, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

I thought the idea behind WP:INVOLVED was that the blocking admin was, or had been, in dispute with the blocked editor in the same article? Saying "if I didn't make a block, someone else reading AN3 would have" looks a bit like saying "WP:INVOLVED doesn't apply if I can save another adnin diong the same job."? Martinevans123 (talk) 07:19, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I believe that PhilKnight's reasoning is correct. Although I've said what I said above to Bgwhite, I think that the two existing blocks walked right up to the line of INVOLVED, without actually crossing over that line. Bgwhite never edited the Widener biography page where the reverts took place. In most of the conflicts between EEng and Bgwhite, Bgwhite has been acting in an administrative role rather than as a disagreeing editor, although, just as EEng has, frankly, taunted Bgwhite, Bgwhite needs to start considering, going forward, that he is starting to be perceived as having an involved or prejudiced role. And I wish EEng would drop the review requests, because it would be asking a lot of any administrator reviewing the AN3 report to assume that, had EEng been reverted again, EEng would not have continued to revert, given what had already happened. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:46, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Unblock request was declined per WP:UNINVOLVED which reads "One important caveat is that an administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic area purely in an administrative role, or whose prior involvements are minor or obvious edits which do not speak to bias, is not involved and is not prevented from acting in an administrative capacity in relation to that editor or topic area." -- Magioladitis (talk) 15:36, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Was it? Perhaps the decline rationale should have mentioned WP:UNINVOLVED in some way? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:11, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't accept that WP:INVOLVED is a good enough reason to unblock. At most, if I accepted the involved rationale, I would take over the block myself. PhilKnight (talk) 17:28, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

A fair comment. Thanks for clarifying that your decline was not "per WP:UNINVOLVED". But I think you should give a clear answer about it, one way or the other. If you think the block is still valid, that's fair enough. But at least we will all have clarity on when it is appropriate to block and when it is not. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:35, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree with John Vandenberg's comment about going over 3RR - there are very few circumstances when that's acceptable, and this certainly wasn't one of them. In this context, I think the block is valid. PhilKnight (talk) 17:49, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I was asking for clarity about "WP:UNINVOLVED vs WP:INVOLVED". Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:51, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I think Tryptofish's comment about the block being just on the right side of the line of WP:INVOLVED is correct. PhilKnight (talk) 18:24, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Uninvolved? You must be joking

This is all quite academic at this point, but still enlightening. Magioladitis, you don't seem to have looked at the diff I supplied re INVOLVED [151] -- a discussion in which I asked (not of Bgwhite):

What purpose is served by activating it? Please answer in terms of how articles are improved by highlighting < p>, not in terms of the mechanisms of operation of these tools. EEng (talk) 11:33 am, 22 August 2014, Friday (1 month, 16 days ago) (UTC-4)

and Bgwhite jumped in out of nowhere to reply

We've been thru this before. You do not like anything about Checkwiki. You've told us to fuck off. You've called us MOS Nazis. We show where in MOS, but you've used MOS is just a guideline/policy and IAR. The funny thing is, one of the reasons Phineas Gage is not a GA is because of your idiosyncratic formatting. The very thing we've been preaching is one of things holding back your GA nomination. Eleanor Elkins Widener is already on the whitelist and won't be checked for <p> again. Bgwhite (talk) 1:35 pm, 22 August 2014, Friday (1 month, 16 days ago) (UTC-4)

(All false statements on Bgwhite's part, BTW, other than that I did refer to certain editors as "MOS Nazis", for which I later substituted "schoolmarmish know-it-alls" or something like that.) Now, does that really comport with UNINVOLVED's criterion, which reads

One important caveat is that an administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic area purely in an administrative role, or whose prior involvements are minor or obvious edits which do not speak to bias,

--? Hardly. Bgwhite lost his temper, repeatedly, and still allowed himself to act on his anger in an administrator's capacity. EEng (talk) 01:26, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Well then, I will step in here like a schoolmarmish know-it-all, and say that I stand by what I said earlier, that the block stepped up to the line of "involved" without quite crossing over it, and that Bgwhite should consider himself involved for the future. And beyond doubt, EEng has acted on his own anger as well. Which isn't worth it. Peace. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:52, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Excuse me? An admin who says to an editor "You do not like anything about [this administrator's pet project]. You've told us to fuck off. You've called us MOS Nazis" is an "administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic area purely in an administrative role, or whose prior involvements are minor or obvious edits which do not speak to bias"? Again, you must be joking. EEng (talk) 00:43, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

You and I both have better things to do than to dwell on this, but when you have called other editors MOS Nazis, even if it is later changed to something else, you should drop it for your own sake. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:12, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

The greater the extent to which one considers what I said offensive (I actually don't, per Mel Brooks) the more obvious is the INVOLVED aspect. EEng (talk) 23:43, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, EEng, just imagine it's Springtime!! Martinevans123 (talk) 20:30, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I think we can all agree that Mel Brooks was joking. Life is too short to stay angry. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:39, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh, so if Mel Brooks says it, then it's OK. Tryptocrite! EEng (talk) 23:43, 20 October 2014 (UTC) Can I be blocked for calling someone a Tryptocrite?

Well, it's better than calling me Typofish. Early in my editing career, I had a troll who insisted on calling me that. The troll is gone, and I'm still here, and it's always better to keep one's editing on the happy side. I knew Mel Brooks, and editor, you're no Mel Brooks! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:03, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm your biggest fan. And I'm just a hopeless punny fish. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:08, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Boston Society for Gentleman's Improvement

So how big a case does one need for a "phallic stalagmite"? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:51, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

What sort of Piganino are u playing? Serten (talk) 00:30, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

A schweinway, of course. 07:29, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Will you stop making puns that subsequently interfere with my sleep? EEng (talk) 07:31, 21 October 2014 (UTC) Played by Piganini, no doubt.

Sorry, don't mean to bore you. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:37, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

• In the BSfMI DYK nomination I stated my preferred hook was ALT2 because you had requested this. Please would you revert/change the result of this edit because I would prefer not to have the term you applied to me there permanently on the record. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:21, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. No offence taken. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 12:23, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Could have been worse. Instead of "BSMI" the article might have been "BDSM". EEng (talk) 12:34, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Dagmar Herzog's research about the BDM (bald deutsche Mutter, soon German mother) might have been Banned in Boston ;)

TfD

It would easy enough to make the case without ridicule, and without the negative adjectives, which verge on the personal. DGG ( talk ) 04:33, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Disagree. This is a severe and chronic WP:COMPETENCE/WP:ICANTHEARYOU situation and it's time that became clear, as large amounts of editor time are being wasted on this person, to no effect whatsoever for more than a year. [152] EEng (talk) 01:00, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Good Humor
	For For excellence in DYK puns. Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:53, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, nice pair o' buns, dude. <blush> Martinevans123 (talk) 20:01, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Ditto, you're the shiznitch, you really are. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:04, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

• I actually feel bad for the article's creator Northamerica1000, since this deprived his article of the full time in the oven it deserved. Anyone want to propose that the hook be re-run? EEng (talk) 21:51, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Hookers

File:Hooker.jpg

How far from Connecticut to DYK? Original title: "Hooker's Company reach the Connecticut"

You wrote "Proving once again that hookers don't get the respect they deserve, despite providing an important service." Were you thinking of Anthony Mitchell or something else? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:02, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Ritchie333, I'm having trouble coming up with an appropriately suggestive pun on this, perhaps because "Parramatta Eels", "Sydney Roosters", and "hookers" make a frightening combination. EEng (talk) 01:13, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

So you've got hookers here, and you posted only about adult diapers on my talk page? Be careful your computer doesn't get a virus! (I always knew there was something shadey about DYK.) --Tryptofish (talk) 19:21, 28 October 2014 (UTC) If only you knew... EEng (talk) 21:33, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks

	A barnstar for you!
	A barnstar for your ongoing efforts and work in WP:DYK-related matters on Wikipedia. NorthAmerica1000 19:56, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, I'm glad someone appreciates it. EEng (talk) 01:00, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Some thought that the hook at Template:Did you know nominations/Steak burger was too cutesy-poo per word choice in it. Either way, the Steak burger page received 9,648 page views, per Stats.grok.se for the time it was present on Main page prior to being pulled. I notice that you re-opened the DYK discussion. I have added a comment and ALT3 there. NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 15:20, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

No one thought it was too cutesy-poo except a couple of schoolmarms. Ridiculous. EEng (talk) 15:25, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

All right, but I'm going to stay neutral regarding various editor opinions about the hook that was run. People have divergent opinions. Perhaps consider adding a new hook as an ALT4 there! NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 15:30, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

There's a point beyond which opinion becomes hypersensitive idiocy. EEng (talk) 15:35, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

EEng, in my opinion you don't have a leg to stand on. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:22, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

How do you come up with this stuff? It's uncanny. EEng (talk) 16:24, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

One of my favourite Far Side cartoons. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:33, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for linking Far Side, because otherwise I wouldn't have known what that is. Anyway, here's one of my all-time favorite somethings. [153] -- sww "Secrets of the honeybee" story. One day at work they almost sent me home early because I couldn't stop bursting out laughing on conference calls with clients etc. EEng (talk) 12:50, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Hahaha, that is very funny. Although, of course, that's why they're called Bee Featers. But I must stop droning on. Time for me to buzz off, I fear. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:07, 4 November 2014 (UTC) p.s. helpful captions show how Wikipedia (any many other organisations) work

Hm. I thought they were raven feeders. (Linking raven feeders partly on the off chance you don't know about the ravens, but mostly so you can follow it to find out about Charlie's "ignominious end".) EEng (talk) 18:23, 4 November 2014 (UTC) I've often wondered which end of a raven is the ignominious one. Now we know. And see last hook here [154] -- probably we'll all end up at ANI.

We all know that Charlie will not have an ignominious end. Not if his bird has anything to do with it! Martinevans123 (talk) 18:36, 4 November 2014 (UTC) ... or maybe end up at the Tower

On another note, how would you like to review [155]? EEng (talk) 19:12, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Not while you've got 211 threads on your Talk Page. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:17, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh well, I tried. Perhaps you could give us a chapter-by-chapter plot spoiler and tell us if earth actually survives. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:37, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Please stay with the discussion if you would be so kind. This is a classic example of the spinning wheel of random DYK requirements, depending on who happens by. EEng (talk) 05:55, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

"Hungry Horseburger", anyone? See what you've done now! Martinevans123 (talk) 13:03, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for suggesting to use {{paragraph break}} on ANI. It seems that's....done it. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 00:01, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome. It's a shame how people who actually contribute content have to waste their time figuring out how to avoid being harassed by the technogeeks [156] EEng (talk) 01:40, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Right, I see now that there's quite some background to this whole p tag business -- it would appear I've been caught in heavy crossfire. Anyway, I think the 2nd (72h) block was more egregious. Rule says must blockbrz0101. 213.7.147.34 (talk) 02:11, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, your bad luck. What's weird is that you and I crossed paths with him on exactly the same trivial issue. [157] It seems he never learns. EEng (talk) 03:55, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Halloween 2014 Limited Edition Barnstar
		For your dedicated work on this year's Halloween on Wikipedia at DYK. Well done. ≈ Victuallers (talk) 11:50, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Informal tracking of the stats

Although I don't always agree with your views as expressed on the DYK talk page, I appreciate the record you are keeping of the number of nominations and approvals. Over the time you have done it, the number of unreviewed nominations has crept up from around 200 to around 300. Three hundred is the equivalent of a three week delay. Periodically I have made suggestions on the discussions page about ways of reducing the backlog but at the moment everyone seems too concerned with making sure that nothing in any way dubious/contentious gets through, especially with a peripatetic ediitor whose objective appears to be to prove reviewers are incompetent.

The chief problem seems to be that nominations exceed reviews. A requirement that every nomination (except the first five DYKs as now) required a QPQ review would solve this problem but you and others might argue that forcing people to do QPQs in this way doesn't lead to higher quality reviews. Adopting my suggestion might have the effect of reducing the number of non-creator nominations, no bad thing in view of the backlog, but on the whole might raise the standard of reviews. Few people seem to do voluntary reviews, perhaps hindered by the atmosphere of criticism. I could discuss this on the DYK talk page but nobody there seems much interested in improving the flow of nominations and decreasing the backlog. By the time it gets to the front page, a "new" article is often many weeks or months old and I think this is a shame. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:37, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for the appreciation -- this seems to be the first attempt to keep any kind of systematic record at all. I'm pleasantly surprised since, frankly, I've been anticipating someone saying, "What are you cluttering up the discussion page with those stupid stats for?"
• All other things being equal, naturally prompter reviews are better, but I really don't see why it matters, per se, that the content be super-fresh-new, or even new at all -- in fact I think the "new content" preoccupation at DYK is a phony distraction.
• I do think it's paramount that WP not be embarrassed on its main page by foolishly wrong hooks, but I also think that one editor's CONSTANT harangues and carping is very poisonous.
• I can't quite tell what you're proposing -- it seems to be "every nomination (except the first five DYKs as now) required a QPQ review would solve this problem" -- but that seems to be what we have now! Please clarify.
• I don't like the idea of requiring reviews from everyone, period, because I think the best way for someone to learn to perform a review is to first be the subject of a few reviews. Here's what I'd propose:

• First 5 noms (self-noms or not): Free [maybe this should be first 3 noms instead -- whatever...]
• Next 5 noms: One review required
• After that: Two reviews required, if there's a backlog (some details need to be worked out here, of course -- and we don't want people sitting around holding onto articles, waiting for the backlog to clear)

Either that or, if we want to have inexperienced people do reviews as QPQ starting with their very first nom, then we need some kind of mentoring or double-check by more experienced reviewers. Either way we have to ask the more-experienced to do more. I know this sounds complicated but I don't see any way to avoid this while maintaining quality. EEng (talk) 15:29, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

At the moment, every time a philanthropic nominator nominates somebody else's article, the gap between the number of reviewed and non-reviewed hooks gets bigger. I was thinking that for the first five nominations made by a new-to-DYK editor, the inexperienced DYKer would not be asked to do a review. After that, a review would be needed for every nomination, whether it was a self-nomination or a nomination by someone else. People like Oceanh who make a lot of nominations would then be required to do a lot of reviews. Nobody would be able to game the system by getting their friend to nominate their articles because the friend would then be required to do a review. The gap between the number of reviewed and non-reviewed hooks would be steady, leaving some extra reviewing work for those nominations where second opinions are needed. Anyone who chose could voluntarily do some reviewing to bring down the backlog. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:37, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Only other use on the web?

Ah yes, "spectral presentments": [158]. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:26, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Breakthrough in psychosurgery

Even when we disagree about some things, I've gotta say this is great. Notify all the right-wing bigots, the operation they are looking for has been found! --Tryptofish (talk) 20:38, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Teenagers don't realize how transparent their psyches are. You may recall my inadvertent suggestion of another potential application of invasive brain surgery, usable right here on Wikipedia. [159] EEng (talk) 20:53, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

A word from our sponsor: [160]. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:46, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

I guess it all depends upon where the "rod" is inserted. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:07, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Gilbert and George? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:14, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

x ≥ y etc

Hi, the MOSNUM examples for ≥ and ≤ appear in the table (spaced), but when it's a number by itself, is the symbol spaced thus? "If the value is > 15, the procedure is likely to succeed". Or >15? Thx. Tony (talk) 11:10, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Putting aside the question of whether and when mixing symbols and text like that is a good idea, I'd think that >, which is standing in for a word, should be spaced on both sides in your example. But that's just a guess, and in some contexts dropping the space on the right side might look better. (This is, after all, about what looks good, not some silly "correctness".) EEng (talk) 20:04, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, thanks. I've since thought that because operators (+3, −3) are unspaced on the right, that "values of >3 should", "values <3 should", etc should also be unspaced on the right, since they look to me like operators in that context. The visual fails with the "is less than" sign, unspaced, to my eyes; but maybe that's the price for consistency. This seems like a different context to the spaced one in the title here. Tony (talk) 01:50, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I'd be happy to opine on a particular situation in an actual article. EEng (talk) 02:23, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

No insults

Your insult directed at me on the DYK nomination page is not appropriate nor appreciated. I expect an apology from you to be posted on that page. HalfGig talk 11:36, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

It wasn't an insult, I wasn't talking about you (or anyone else for that matter) [161], and there's nothing to apologize for. However, the fact that you feel compelled to imagine it was directed at you is something you might want to think about. EEng (talk) 19:02, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

The fact that you don't see what is wrong with your behavior is something YOU might want to think about. HalfGig talk 20:56, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

It's OK that you misunderstood, but not OK that you can't just say, "Oh, I see, I misunderstood." For the last time: I wasn't referring to you (or, indeed, to anyone), there's nothing to apologize for, you embarrass yourself by continuing to whine about this, so please put a sock in it. As mentioned elsewhere, if you want to have the last word please do -- I'm unlikely to respond because experience shows you're unlikely to say anything new. EEng (talk) 02:34, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

It seems to me that the phrase "punkin heads" was a bad idea, whomever it referred to. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:31, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, why don't you read the thread linked in my post above, Tfish, and see that it referred to no one. As Martinevans was able to see with ease (see below) this is all in the complainant's mind. EEng (talk) 02:34, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, scary. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:48, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Seriously good advice. HalfGig, I'm guessing that you won't get that apology, but I want you to know that I think that you are in the right, insofar as how editors should treat one another. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:53, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, I think HalfGig is in the right too, as far as how editors should treat one another i.e. civilly. Unfortunately that has no relevance here, since nothing, nothing in this matter has been in any way uncivil, unless you count HalfGig continuing to make accusations about an imagined slight. EEng (talk) 02:34, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, seriously. In the crooked eye of the beholder, alas. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:01, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

User:HalfGig, I too found the grammatical ambiguity in your first hook quite amusing. I assume it was unintentional. It's unfortunate that you took EEng's poking fun at that as poking fun at you. I'm sure you're the type of editor who likes a good Luffa now and again. I'm the true pun-kin head around here. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:08, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Taking one for the team, are you, ME123? EEng (talk) 02:34, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Deletion

On Talk:St. Joseph Parish, Gowanda, New York, you've removed, perhaps accidentally, Ad Orientem's important and highly relevant comment. I was going to revert you, but I think it best for you to replace that piece. Thanks! Softlavender (talk) 05:16, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Accidental on my part, sorry -- I see Ad Orientem's restored his comments. EEng (talk) 06:46, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

No worries. I kinda figured it was a mistake. By coincidence I spent part of this morning picking myself up after tripping over my keyboard in an unrelated CSD/AfD fiasco. $#YT happens. -Ad Orientem (talk) 06:59, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Could have been worse -- could have been an ANI fiasco. See also the hatnotes at `Collapse. EEng (talk) 07:04, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Let's face it EEng, even your best articles are unnotable rubbish ... but it's now all becoming clear why that is. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:34, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

How bout this ALT?

... that architect Mihran Mesrobian (pictured), designer of many historically listed buildings, lost fifteen members of his family during the Armenian Genocide? Étienne Dolet (talk) 23:47, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Much better, IMO. Go ahead and propose it. EEng (talk) 00:20, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

For the Record

Your continued, offensive comments regarding me and my contributions here are not productive, nor helpful to me. How is it constructive to continually tear a person and his/her work down? It provides an opportunity for conflict and ugliness which should not be the aim here. Daniellagreen ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:12, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I am one of a legion of editors who have tried at length to explain to you how Wikipedia works, to no avail. My comments have been limited to the inappropriateness of much of the material you've added to articles, and to the fact that you misunderstand guidelines. EEng (talk) 19:13, 14 November 2014 (UTC) P.S. I was pretty sure you wouldn't let us down on the Godwin's Law front, and you didn't [162].

This comment [163] from another editor to you pretty much sums up the situation. EEng (talk) 19:40, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

EEng, On reviewing most of your record, it seems that most and/or nearly all of the articles that you, yourself, have created have no notability. In the several that I looked at, you have anywhere from 1-5 references on them. They are not notable, yet you have been one of my top attackers here. I think that speaks for itself. You might look at your own work to improve rather than continuing to tear down that which I did. There is no credibility in someone who has multiple issues in their own writing, yet who goes to extremes to attack others. I have addressed this with you to some degree in the past, though it is necessary to bring it to light again as it is unproductive and unconstructive. You have never had one good thing to say about me or my work. I do not expect that to change, and in fact, I expect the worst abuse from you, but know that it is not appropriate or professional. Daniellagreen ^{(talk) (cont)} 21:12, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• (talk page stalker) FWIW I don't think the above comment should be dignified with a reply. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:26, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

AO, I'm afraid I'm gonna ignore your advice. Daniellagreen, what "speaks for itself" is that you think notability is determined by nose-counting references, regardless of content or quality. Other than posting unreadable, grotesquely bloated material on non-notable subjects, the entirety of your contribution to Wikipedia has been long, tiresome plaints about the mistreatment you've suffered here, each stuffed to bursting with repetitive strings of big in/un words: unprofessional, inappropriate, unprofessional, unconstructive, unprofessional, unproductive, unprofessional, unpleasant, unprofessional, unhelpful, unprofessional, unnecessary, unprofessional, unprofessional, unprofessional, unprofessional -- you're like a walking thesaurus of victimization. (And Wikipedia editing isn't a professional pursuit, BTW, so as with everything else you've got the wrong end of the stick on that.) Your constant refrain is that if everyone doesn't start treating you nicer you'll turn your back on the project and never return. But that never happens, so just how much more abuse do you intend to submit to in your quest for martyrdom? EEng (talk) 03:13, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Your talk page

Wow, you get a lot of letters! You may wish to archive your talk page periodically so it will upload for other users more quickly. Best, Yoninah (talk) 00:38, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it's that much, really, after seven years. I have a kind of "warts-and-all" philosophy, under which people should be presented with both my sterling moments of idea collaboration, and the times I was a goddam jerk. That way they know what they're dealing with. EEng (talk) 12:49, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Warts and all? I see your wonderful jet-powered Talk Page as more of a "Formula One bath-chair". Martinevans123 (talk) 14:10, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

More of a Spruce Goose I think. EEng (talk) 14:14, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Great to see you doing your bit for gender equality. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:23, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Still an unsolved problem, as I understand it. EEng (talk) 14:38, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

I think my main issue is the time for the page to load is about as fast as a Sinclair C5. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:15, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Christ, how many people are watching this page??? EEng (talk) 16:35, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh no! We're back on speed records again! Martinevans123 (talk) 16:43, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Without doubt one of the lamest edit wars ever

NPA

Please don't make a personal attack in an edit summary as you did at Wikipedia:Did you know]. Dispute resolution is made that much more difficult. Binksternet (talk) 16:29, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh, please. If he can't take it he shouldn't be dishing it out [164][165]. This guy's always angry. There's no dispute here, just his venting, so there's no dispute resolution to be made more difficult. EEng (talk) 17:45, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

It'd be best if you started a thread at the DYK talk page rather than conduct this petty feud via edit summaries. But you both already knew that. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:04, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

You having the most experience in the petty feud quarter, of course. Actaully, I was going to ask you to take over for me, since you and Bloom are always entertaining to watch. EEng (talk) 21:12, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Bravo. I've turned over a new leaf, i.e. not arguing the toss with those who will never get it, plenty of them around. But the initial advice stands, start a thread rather than attempt a puerile debate via edit summaries. That way we'll get it all out in the open and neither of you will need to feel anxious or upset. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:17, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I had noticed you were less of a curmudgeon lately. Keep up the good work. There's nothing to debate, as BMS has made the needed fix, Bloom's incomprehension notwithstanding. EEng (talk) 21:22, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I had also noticed, in that same period, that you had taken up the role of being the local asshat;) Keep up the good work! The Rambling Man (talk) 21:34, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Yours are big shoes to fill, but I'm doing my best. It's a dirty job but someone's gotta do it. EEng (talk) 21:38, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Great, now archive your talk page. It's as bloated as most of the chat at the Reference Desk or the DYK talkpage. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:01, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Love me, love my bloated talk page. EEng (talk) 22:25, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

"Aquarius! and my name is EEng!" .... "bloat, bloat on"..... Martinevans123 (talk) 22:29, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

[166] EEng (talk) 03:09, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

It's Aquarius, you numbskull, not Aquaria! Martinevans123 (talk) 21:55, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

" Gladiators.... READY!!" Martinevans123 (talk) 19:24, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

November 2014

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Template:Did you know/Queue/LocalUpdateTimes. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Please be particularly aware that Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made.
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. —Bloom6132 (talk) 21:43, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

It's more convincing when the person warning about "edit warring" isn't one of those doing the reverting. You're obviously angry about other things. [167][168] EEng (talk) 21:50, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

What a load of bollocks. Don't feed it. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:58, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

"I didn't get where I am today by telling people they might get blocked from editing!" Martinevans123 (talk) 22:00, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Notice of Edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. —Bloom6132 (talk) 22:06, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

November 2014

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 24 hours for edit warring and violating the three-revert rule, as you did at Template:Did you know/Queue/LocalUpdateTimes. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the following text below this notice: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}. However, you should read the guide to appealing blocks first.

During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection.  Jackmcbarn (talk) 23:09, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

See [169]] for what all this is about. As with earlier incidents recently (I seem to be making a habit of this [170]]) I'm pleased and gratified to be blocked at the behest of someone so transparently angry [171]. Hopefully this will allow him to cool down. EEng (talk) 23:37, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

EEng, the best thing I can think of is that a very long time ago, an unruly landlord took exception to the music the band I was in were playing, and at the end of the gig told us to not come back while turning a blind eye to a couple of drunks hurling our equipment out into the street, nearly causing injury due to a bass drum flying through the air. When 3RR wars break out, think of tales like that and remind yourself "it could be worse". Happy holidays. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:45, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Either that, or try and get your own drunken bass-drum hurling in first. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:55, 26 November 2014 (UTC) grrrr, a measly 24 hours! ... doesn't even give us enough time do undo all your dodgey Huck Phinn edits.

But whatever you do, please please don't kick the cat. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:42, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Although you can get therapy if you do. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:54, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

I continue to be astonished that this page seems worth watching to so many people. EEng (talk) 04:08, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Friendly suggestion

I suggest you revert this edit. The comment is off-topic there and makes you look petty. I don't think it contributes to a good working climate, either between the two of you, or in general. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 02:54, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate the suggestion, but decline. I'm not embarrassed to be blocked at the behest of someone like that, but I prefer that the context be on the record. EEng (talk) 03:27, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

From the Museum of Freudian Slips

About this edit summary: [172], please tell me that the spelling was intentional, and not a typo or a Freudian slip! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:53, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, sometimes a typo is just a typo, but I'm not sure it's possible to distinguish one from a F.S. without more psychotherapy than my insurance will underwrite. Not intentional, at any rate. EEng (talk) 23:45, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

"So, Sigmund Freud walks into a bra..." Martinevans123 (talk) 22:01, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

"So, Phineas Gage runs into a bar..." EEng (talk) 19:03, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Now that sounds bit hairy! Anyone fancy a Brazillian? [173]. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:12, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

I've seen that before, of course. I like where the doctor says "the bar entered a 'non-eloquent' area of the brain" -- likely Google-translate for the "silent area" – see [174]. What's really amazing about these kinds of amazing survivals is that they're not actually uncommon anymore. See Stone (1999) "Transcranial Brain Injuries Caused by Metal Rods or Pipes over the Past 150 Years". (My favorites: Case IX – "a young left-handed American Marine in a jeep accident near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania who had a gear shift driven through his head ... On follow-up examination he was free of gross deficits and was eventually dismissed from the Marine Corps because of injuries to his knee. Some years later it was learned that he did have a dyslexia and had sought the help of a nun who trained him to read" – and Case XIV – "The victim and his friend were intoxicated and attempting a 'William Tell' maneuver ... The arrow was removed by pulling it through the brain along its original trajectory ..." I always find it amusing that details such as "near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania", and the nun, are considered somehow relevant.) EEng (talk) 19:49, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Better take care if you're out drinking in downtown Boston, Mr. L. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:58, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Freud's first slip. EEng (talk) 22:25, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Poor EEng, as a young child, he was mistreated by a bot. Those nasty bots! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:56, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

More like the Primal scene, except with bots. After that I could never look at my motherboard the same way again. EEng (talk) 20:52, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Surely you mean Primal Scream? ya mutha. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:54, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Primal Screen And don't call me Shirley. EEng (talk) 17:40, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Yuk, lessons for us all

"Similarly, when a lumbermill foreman returned to work soon after a saw cut three inches into his skull from just between the eyes to behind the top of his head, his surgeon (who had removed from this wound "thirty-two pieces of bone, together with considerable sawdust") termed the case "second to none reported, save the famous case of the Wikipedia ArbCom sanctions decree", but apologized that "I cannot well gratify the desire of my professional brethren to possess the editor's skull, until he has no further use for it himself." Martinevans123 (talk) 15:16, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

creep?

You are missing my main point, which is that mosnum would become one whole lot simpler if it adopted the ISQ as default, stating exceptions as considered necessary, and not inventing new rules over and over again. Is that really instruction creep? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 19:52, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

"American way, How did it start? ... Cop kill a creep! Pow pow pow!" Martinevans123 (talk) 20:12, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

It's CREEP unless it's clear (a) that there's lots of controversy that needs settling, and (b) that ISQ indeed usually gives the answers we would want. So far I'm not even seeing (a), and (b) can't become clear without a lot more discussion, almost certainly with actual issues as examples. EEng (talk) 01:06, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

I believe the simplification is justified even without proof of controversy. I suspect that ISQ provides much of the advice on units that is now in MOSNUM, but I accept some discussion is needed for this to be accepted, which is why I keep raising it. The main exceptions would be selected use of traditional American units in American articles and traditional English units in English articles, and mosnum's insistence in using ambiguous prefixes for MB, GB etc. Not only would it result in a simpler mosnum, which would benefit Wikipedia as a whole - it would also reduce the time needed for future mosnum discussions by providing a clear starting point. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 09:33, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

You creeper, you

Was this edit summary intentional?--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 04:40, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Jeepers Creepers! EEng (talk) 05:15, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Paradise Circus, Birmingham

Your kind of hook? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 02:26, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

It's OK, but it seems like there ought to be be a better hook in there -- something like "Paradise has been condemned" or "Paradist is going to hell", but I'm drawing a blank. EEng (talk) 02:52, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, keep thinking. Mind altering substances might help? I'm too close to this, so my ideas for now aren't worth much. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 03:02, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

How about

... that parts of Paradise are to be demolished to make way for a "vibrant mixed use development"?

Sorry, I can't figure a way to work the circus back in, though it now seems likely there are, in fact, circuses in heaven. If you like this please propose it on the nom page -- past my bedtime. EEng (talk) 07:56, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

EEng, I would be pleased to propose that, but that would DSQ me as a reviewer. And it was like Herding cats to get this article up to speed and give it that tick. Maybe you or User:Gerda Arendt can propose it? Since the article would support the hook (that wouldn't evaporate), it would not involve getting another reviewer. And I could just approve it. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:20, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Assignation

Sorry about that! and thanks for fixing it. "Assignation" does look awfully funny to a non-specialist, though! --MelanieN (talk) 00:41, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, it does sound like a kind of Linnaean tryst. EEng (talk) 00:49, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Nadolig hapus

Martinevans123^{Santas Grotto} ... wishes you and yours:

"Nadolig Llawen a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda"

---

May the true spirit of Christmas bless you with warmth and peace!

"Horrible Horace" Trumbauer

Thanks. I wrote a 52-page paper on Trumbauer in high school, so I'm familiar with a lot of the scholarship. The trouble is, I can see both sides of the argument. Paul Cret was appalled when shown the Trumbauer firm's drawings for the Philadelphia Museum of Art—there were 2 style options for decorating the exterior but the interior volumes stayed the same. This went against Cret's whole philosophy of design, but made sense for a businessman like Trumbauer who had to woo clients. I will always have an abiding affection for Trumbauer, especially his Shingle-style buildings. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 17:51, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

You'll find this note interesting [175]. EEng (talk) 18:12, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. That was fun to read. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 18:16, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I hope you didn't miss the bit about the toilets [176]. And the wisecracking campus police chief [177]. And the cannibals [178]. EEng (talk) 18:54, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

The Rice cannibals anecdote is right up there with Mark Twain. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 20:48, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Mari Lwyd hapus

Martinevans123^{Ogof Myrddin o ddirgelwch} ... wishes you and yours:
" Mari Lwyd hapus"

---

All the best for 2015. Have a horse's skull on a stick and a toast tree trolley!

Mari Lwyd hapus Ogof Myrddin o ddirgelwch??? Time for a new keyboard. EEng (talk) 18:04, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Round here we use human skulls impaled on iron bars.

"Legal disclaimer: no keyboards were knowingly hurt in the construction of this New Year Greeting." Mssrs. Sue, Grabitt and Runne^{"Legal eagles to all the stars"}

These guys are even messier: Dewey Cheatham & Howe LLP -- EEng (talk)

One that "slipped through the net": [179] Martinevans123 (talk) 16:01, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Great to see that your favourite library has a Tiffany lamp to go with those roaring open fires. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:31, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Pearls before swine

Too true. Oh well, there's lots of other hooks in the sea. Yoninah (talk) 18:44, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Like I said somewhere else, it just goes to show that hookers aren't appreciated, despite providing a much-in-demand service. EEng (talk) 21:11, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Just deserts? Yoninah (talk) 11:53, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks!

Your hook for Olim L'Berlin got more hits than I've ever gotten for an article I worked on. Thanks! Yoninah (talk) 11:44, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, the brilliant move was yours, which was to make the link text Facebook photos. EEng (talk) 17:09, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

ANI Notice

Today is "National shit on EEng from a great height day". Please bring your rotten tomatoes and automated insult generators. Thankyou. Image courtesy of Ritchie333

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

• Be nice. I removed a significant amount of your verbage that had nothing to do with the AFD. If you can't be civil, don't speak up at all. seicer | talk | contribs 17:52, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure that referring to EEng's edits as crap is going to get the necessary result. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:22, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

How prescient of you (see below). In the event, it apparently didn't. So what do you think -- should I file the ritual futile unblock request? EEng (talk) 22:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

You have been blocked temporarily from editing for abuse of editing privileges. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the following text below this notice: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}. However, you should read the guide to appealing blocks first.

-- Block performed by the semi-retired drop-in admin civility enforcer.

• If you'll specify just why you blocked me, I'll consult my glittering salon of talkpage stalkers for advice on whether I should file the ritual futile appeal. EEng (talk) 22:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

ked me, I'll consult my glittering salon of talkpage stalkers for advice on whether I should file the ritual futile appeal. EEng (talk) 22:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, at least you didn't get a perm, dearie. Martine's Mobile Hair Vans123 (talk) 22:48, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

@Drmies:, @Yngvadottir: - I've just had a GA review torpedoed as a result of EEng's block, I don't suppose you've be awfully kind like you were to the Best Known For IP and consider "time served" would you? EEng, I think you've made your point in the AfD (as have I) and we should both leave it alone. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:51, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Archiving a talk page

A large pile of composted Talk Page threads can spontaneously combust if not properly managed

Not only are your DYK stories getting ever taller, but I fear your 57 miles (92 km) of Talk Page shelving is getting a bit long. Who knows, it might even constitiute a fire hazard. Kind regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:54, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

..."will you please be not crazy for just 48 hours?" ... a chance to do some serious shelf-tidying before that sprinkler kicks in? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:30, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

You always lift the spirits of those around you. Listen, will you please check your inbox/junk folder and get something useful done while I'm doing my penance here? EEng (talk) 22:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

If only I could get to the bottom of it! But, irony of ironies, it seems you "can't actually archive your page until the block is expired, because you can't edit the Archive sub-page..." or so come kindly technical chap tells us. Now there's something in need of tweaking. However will you fill your time? A trip to Cornwall never goes amis. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:38, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Here's how you do a review! None of that messy question and answer stuff. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:47, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

In fact, yes. While he was well-intentioned, I'm afraid our friend fell into what appears to be an endemic trap at GA, which is WP:Reviewing_good_articles#Imposing_your_personal_criteria. Please stay with it. I need your honest opinion on whether you can see these "image and quote" problems. If so, I'll fix them. Either way, after that I'd like to renominate and get a proper (i.e. stick-to-the-criteria) review from you. EEng (talk) 17:41, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I see that User:ChrisGualtieri has had a input. Perhaps he'd like to take on a second review? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:51, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Berkley

Did I make the right guess here: [180]? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:01, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't think so [181] though you'll need a better source than any of those -- you'd probably find it in the liner notes of one of his albums (not sure if that counts as a RS -- never thought about it). Did you get my email??? EEng (talk) 23:06, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Ah, many thanks. I was thrown by the Google translation of "Berklee" as "Berkley". My knowledge of Czech is pretty limited and I have to guess. But I can't even guess when it somes to Hebrew! Jakubovic's liner notes are often a bit scant, to say the least. Sorry no access to email at the moment, but I will check as soon as I can. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:39, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

"My knowledge of Czech is pretty limited." I had an instructor once who mentioned that he was going to have a busy term because he was taking over a sick colleague's Akkadian class "and my Akkadian is pretty rusty." I found that endlessly amusing. I mean -- how to do you stay supple in Akkadian? A sabbatical in Akkadia? And how would anyone know? If you just fake it, what are the chances you'll get found out? Glad I could help. EEng (talk) 13:29, 28 January 2015 (UTC) I was a bit pissed off when I wrote the email -- I really thought you were playing with fire at my expense -- so please see past that.

Lol. "Playing with fire"... are you joking! I'd rather try juggling with chainsaws! Martinevans123 (talk) 14:07, 28 January 2015 (UTC) p.s. he probably meant "Arcadian class". p.p.s. I have replied. Even a library needs a few coatracks, I would have thought.

Horace Trumbauer

It's a 35-year obsession. I wrote papers on him in high school and college. Thanks for your thanks. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 16:08, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Dust or not, wouldn't it be wonderful if the Roosevelt dining room still existed? And you've got to assume that growing up in such a vibrant physical environment had some effect on Teddy. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 16:13, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

My first guess is that he would have got yelled at for knocking over the crockery and keeping mice in the drawers. There's a wonderful incident in which TR, after leaving his last meeting as a Harvard Overseer, told a friend that he'd felt "like a bulldog who had strayed into a symposium of perfectly clean, white Persian cats." EEng (talk) 17:23, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

It's a lovely article. I'm glad you wrote it. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 17:05, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks (and thanks for the fixes and categories). But just wait -- it's up for WP:GA and someone's going to say there are too many quotes, and the sentences are too complex, and ... It's incredible how people who can't write have no hesitation in lecturing others on how it's done. (Just in case he's watching, I'm not talking about the reviewer I was working with recently on another article, but rather another editor who intervened.) Anyway, it really is a beautiful and touching story. This will be the 100th anniversary of his graduation and it's just occurred to me that the old alma mater should give some small recognition of that. First I have to track down that letter from the British officer, which appears to have been entirely forgotten. It won't be easy.

Let me ask you, since Trumbauer's your man... how familiar are you with his papers and so on? Are you in a position to look for a few things over the next coupla months? As it happens June is also the 100th for Widener Lib and I'd like to get that article to FA in time for that, though my limited experience with even GA is, as noted, not encouraging. At the same time I may be in a position to help improve the Trumbaer article, at least with respect to his work on Widener. EEng (talk) 17:23, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

I haven't used his papers, although I know they're at the Historical Society of Pennsylvania. I didn't do any original research, pretty much relied on what had already been written. I met (the late) Alfred Branham, who took me on a walking tour of Trumbauer buildings in Manhattan. And I have Twilight of Splendor and Rev. Frederick Platt's book. The little I know about Widener Library is from what's already been published. == BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 13:06, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Nonetheless I'm sure we'll be teaming up now and then. EEng (talk) 13:14, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Please clarify

If someone has 100 DYK credits to his name, all for articles that he himself created, and now he's nominating someone else's work, does he have to submit a QPQ? Or does he get a grace period until he has 5 DYK nominations of other people's work? Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 11:37, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm flattered, but if you're coming to me because I'm considered "the expert" then DYK -- indeed all of WP -- is doomed. Nonetheless I'll do my best to resolve this recalcitrant riddle. My interpretation of WP:Did_you_know#Eligibility_criteria (5) is that, once you have 5 credits for whatever reason, you have to start doing one review for every nom you make. So no grace period for your friend. EEng (talk) 12:22, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Yoninah (talk) 12:59, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

John Harvard (clergyman)

He was not the founder. The Colony decided to create New College. Harvard's will gave some (half?) of his estate to the endevor. In return, the colony named the college for him. Read the article. - Denimadept (talk) 05:34, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

The facts are correct as far as you state them, but you misunderstand the use of the word "founder" in the context of John Harvard. I've augmented the article to cclarify [182]. EEng (talk) 14:22, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Dispute

EE, I really don't want to get into a public dispute with you, but you're making it difficult. I have a good cite at Harvard Bridge. You can't say the same about the one at John Harvard. - Denimadept (talk) 22:42, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

You apparently didn't read my edit summary [183], and an article on a bridge article shouldn't be discussing who founded Harvard College anyway. This has been elaborately explained elsewhere as well [184], plus additional citations were added this morning which you seem to have overlooked [185]. EEng (talk) 23:02, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

ANI

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The discussion is about the topic Potentially Polemic Userbox. Thank you. --Mr. Guye (talk) 00:06, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

EEng, I'm saying this as one friend to another - leave ANI alone. Rubbing Drmies up the wrong way is likely to result in a block, possibly an indefinite one. Now, don't take that as meaning I support or want you to be blocked - I don't! But the peanut gallery at ANI generally don't tend to evaluate the pros and cons of an editor, and once you've been dragged there a few times and blocked, it's easy for said peanut gallery to think "he's not here to write an encyclopedia" and break out the banhammers. Please, just stick to articles and DYKs - whatever other disagreements we've had recently I can honestly say your work at DYK is a good thing and very much appreciated for keeping the quality of the main page upheld. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:51, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I doubt that anyone is going to blocked for rubbing me the wrong way, and I'm not going to block for it. And Ritchie, it wasn't just the peanut gallery, if that's what those folks were: ANI, as I feel I have to explain constantly, is not a forum--and so, EEng, it doesn't matter whether something takes three hours or not. It's consensus plus an admin's judgment, and in this case the admin is me. Few people dislike the forumy peanuty chatter at ANI more than I do--but I hope that there's at least one person in the room who understands that the constant reopening of threads and the persistent shit-smearing in that discussion is, in general and in the long run, what makes ANI the barrel o' crap it is. So, EEng, you made a comment, I (and a couple of others) thought it violated guidelines for talk page behavior, I removed it--and really that's all there is to it. I got no problem with you, and you can complain as much as you like as long as it's not too disruptive. Also, I don't work for Harvard either--does that help? Drmies (talk) 14:55, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

What, I should just sit around while ol' BGwhite just makes up stuff up (e.g. that I work for Harvard)? I understand what you're saying, but I feel the best thing you can do (for me, for you, and for WP) is to speak up yourself and say what you think. These people are out of control.

Thanks for the complements re DYK. I'm not mad at you re GA, but I do think you misunderstand what the standard is meant to be there, along with most everyone else at GA, which is why it seems few quality editors care about GA status for articles anymore -- articles get GA status for conforming to very cramped ideas of what articles should look (not stated in the GACR, though) with little regard for whether they're anything anyone would actually care to read. EEng (talk) 13:47, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Please accept this charming complimentary box of peanuts, kindly donated by this season's gallery sponsor. Enjoy! Martinevans123 (talk) 13:35, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

First they came for the userboxes...

Your contribution to the day's events is of course most welcome. As mentioned to Ritchie above, though, speaking up at the venue is important too almost as important. At heart this intolerance of criticism is a serious threat to the project. EEng (talk) 13:47, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

"I had one of them poleminks once, but it died." PineMartin123 (talk) 14:02, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

I think we'll just have to put Widener behind us, but on the general principle I am in pretty much agreement with your views on GAs; on more than a few occasions (eg: Talk:1988–94 British broadcasting voice restrictions/GA1) I have passed a GA with a comment like "well we've got issues with x, y and z but they're not part of the GA criteria so I'm passing anyway". IMHO the following are not required to pass GA : infoboxes, templates, categories, URLs for print sources that happen to be online, non-free images, audio files, an inline source at the end of each paragraph, links to other articles, any external links .... I could go on.

Even so, I would say this : although you generally have free reign to run your talk page as you see fit, you don't WP:OWN it. Not everyone appreciates my sense of humour either, but arguing about it isn't a particularly productive use of your time. In this instance an admin has implemented consensus from ANI to not include something on your user page and while you didn't directly revert, you have effectively stuck two fingers up at it. I think we'll draw a line under this conversation now and hope it goes away, because all it takes is one cheesed off admin to look at it and you'll be in trouble. Let's hope Martin can fatally wound the dispute with some sarcasm before we can finally kill it off with irony. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:01, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Did someone mention star chasms? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:12, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

I dare you to change the lead to "Another Brick in the Wall comprises of three songs". I double dare you. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:25, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

ouch!. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:54, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Maybe you could get me one of those shirts at discount rate, EEng? I was thinking of getting involved at ANI. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:00, 6 February 2015 (UTC) <"chortle">

This sounds suspiciously like a bribe. I am incorruptible. EEng (talk) 22:17, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Heraldry of Harvard University

It would have been nice when you did not use PAs to blemish a nominator on an article. The article was rotten, unsourced and seemed to fail WP:GNG. Thanks to your work to add all kinds of related sources the article is now just rotten and seems to fail WP;GNG. Congratulations with that achievement. The Banner talk 20:42, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

"Thanks to your work to add all kinds of related sources the article is now just rotten" -- I guess I've been confused all these years, because I thought adding relevant sources is what we're supposed to do. Anyway, the article may be rotten (and it is) but that's got nothing to do with AfD. The article was unsourced, but if you'd simply googled the article title you would have come up with several good sources immediately, and saved us all this trouble. It's not a "PA" to point out that you apparently didn't do that, as WP:BEFORE calls for you to do. You seem to be under a misapprehension about how AfD works -- articles don't pass or fail AfD, rather their subjects do, regardless of what's in the article. EEng (talk) 22:29, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

No, what you did was skip WP:RS by adding related sources. The Banner talk 23:05, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Samuel Eliot Morison was a Pulitzer Prize-winning historian. Mason Hammond was one of the real-life "Monuments Men" you may have learbed a bit about in the recent film of that title. If you're seriously suggesting they're not reliable sources then I'm afraid there's a gap between us that further discussion will be unable to bridge. EEng (talk) 23:30, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Re: Sorry if I seemed pissy...

No problem. You didn't seem ... anything.

But I believe I must apologize for bad reverting. Not that I don't like the change; in fact I do. If the sroc's change is finalized formally, I can finally act upon it. But if I acted upon it and then someone spring the same revert on me objecting the bad MOS change, then I'd be unfairly in trouble. Fleet Command (talk) 20:47, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm staying out of that one -- these date-consistency wars make my head explode. sroc's a good guy/gal BTW, in my experience, so I'm sure y'all can work it out. EEng (talk) 21:16, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Can you fill me in?

What's the problem with Robert Young (longevity claims researcher) in a nutshell? I'd like to take a crack at whatever's wrong. thanks--A21sauce (talk) 23:54, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

It's hard to explain if you don't know the background. "Longevity" has been target to an amazing amount of POV-pushing and spamming for about 10 years. RY was eventually blocked indefinitely for sockpuppetry; see [186] and also [187]. Of course none of that has anything to do with notabilty, except that you can always rely that whatever sources are offered are the most marginal, strained, thin ones you can imagine. There's an overview of the sources at User_talk:The_Blade_of_the_Northern_Lights#He.27s_baaaaack_(again). If no other sources are added in the next week or so I'll be taking it to AfD. EEng (talk) 00:52, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. What is AfD again? It's hard to find stuff quickly in Wikipedia's help desk. thanks

"Articles for Deletion", where editors discuss whether a subject meets the minimum notability criteria to have its own article -- see [188]. In rereading that, I find a post by RY which pretty much sums up the bizarre flavor of everything related to him and longevity: he describes himself as "in charge of the world's oldest people for the entire planet". Eventually he was topic-banned from longevity (see WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Longevity#Ryoung122) and later blocked indefinitely for continuing to edit in that area via sockpuppets. I believe you'll find that most editors feel that the longevity quagmire, in terms of the amount of community time spent refereeing behavioral problems, has been one of the most destructive and wasteful in WP's history. EEng (talk) 21:40, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Widener Library/GA2

I have passed the article as a GA. Could you please send the agreed amount via PayPal asap as I need to get that bottle of cooking sherry. I nearly fell asleep reading about that huge Library. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:21, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Fool! Use the secure channel! I actually did fall asleep in there once and woke up at 1 am. Oh boy do they search you good when that happens. Thanks again for the thorough review. EEng (talk) 21:28, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

I see there is a surprising link with one of your libraries here. It looks like you guys are having a bit of a chilly time at the moment? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:14, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

[189] -- you might find clicking some of the author links interesting. Last night it was 0F but it's since warmed up to 9F. No end in sight. EEng (talk) 16:04, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

That's fascinating, thanks. Winters were much colder in the UK when Danzig Dan was in charge of the weather. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:44, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Widener Library

The article Widener Library you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Widener Library for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Martinevans123 -- Martinevans123 (talk) 20:01, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Dummy edits

For those who are wondering, the following exchange regards these two edits -- the first a serious (and perfectly appropriate) one by Edoktor, and the second a followup dummy edit I made riffing off his edit summary:

[190] Edit summary (Edoktor): i and 1 are too alike

[191] Edit summary (EEng): (dummy edit) You're saying 1 and i are too?

I keep forgetting, however, about the small minority of WP editors with congenital humor impairment, and the even smaller minority who seem to want to spoil the fun for everyone else. I'm not sure, even now, if Herr Doktor gets the joke.

Please stop making dummy edits for messaging. These edits, as well as the ones required to clean up the added spacing, add unnecessary load to the servers and polute the history. Thank you. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 15:31, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Please stop dispensing hidebound, clueless scoldings. Your notion of what constitutes "load to the servers", and your idea that there's a "requirement" to "clean up" a single space added to a page as part of a dummy edit (as, unbelievably, you actually squandered server resources to do -- twice! [192][193]) are delusional. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Humor is a legitimate way of furthering the project by increasing the pleasure of (at least some of) those who edit here. If it doesn't tickle your personal funnybone, just ignore it. If, on the other hand, you don't even grasp the humor intended then there's a serious clue problem in play here. EEng (talk) 16:27, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Are you done? OK, so I missed the joke. That is no reason to repeat a nonsense edit. Edit summaries are not ment for messaging. And yes, stray spaces can cause disruption in diffs; that is why I remove them. And I resent being associated with nazis; that is personal attack! -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 18:59, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, you missed the joke. Three times. Even after your attention was called to it directly. Next time, before scolding an experienced editor with your nonsense about server load, think about whether it's you who's confused. Your continued fussing about an extra space at the end of a line shows that you have no grasp of technical issues at all.

I've restored the words Herr Doktor (in the phrase I'm not sure, even now, if Herr Doktor gets the joke) because otherwise people might think that I actually did compare you to a Nazi. It's beyond weird (paging Herr Doktor Freud!) that you seem to think that addressing you that way, after your dyspeptic lecture in direct contravention to well-known and accepted editing practice (see H:DUMMY#Methods), somehow does that.

Lighten up, smarten up, think more, scold less. EEng (talk) 19:38, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

I do not like any allusion to any German figure of authority! I can take a joke, but this truly offends me. I have made note of it on ANI. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 21:41, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

You equate all German authority figures to Nazis. Noted. EEng (talk) 22:04, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Is there any other possible implication? -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 22:17, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

My addressing you as Herr Doktor ironically combined your username Edokter with the old-time German academic tradition of showing excessive deference for degree-holders, regardless of how absurd their declamations may be. It was intended to prompt you to reconsider your high-handed posture, and as already explained has nothing to do with Nazism. It's entirely your choice to continue to insist that it does -- not to mention an affront to Germans.

I repeat: Lighten up, smarten up, think more, scold less. And stop insulting Germans. EEng (talk) 23:05, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

• (talk page stalker) I'm not sure what the Nazi reference was supposedly, but you two are bickering like an old married couple about null edit summaries... Really? Please, both of you just Let It Go and get back to important things. I know you are both much better than this. Thank you. — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 22:35, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, I'm better than this, but he keeps coming back to dig himself deeper. EEng (talk) 23:05, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

• He's better than this too, so just Let It Go because it's really not worth bickering over who got the bigger of two identical cookies. I honestly could dig through all the policies and find conflicting ones on what you two are bickering about and you are both completely right and completely wrong. You're not going to change or fix anything and this is one of those things that #NobodyCares about to put it bluntly. :) Now, get back to work! — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 23:13, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

OK, but just so it's clear, I'm gonna keep leaving the occasional dummy edit, with amusing edit summary, here and there. I refuse to be oppressed by the humorless minority! ...moved to subsection... EEng (talk) 23:56, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Just a honeymoon, I'm sure. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:38, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Who you calling a Nazi??? EEng (talk) 23:13, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

"Look out! Here comes the Master Race!!" (.... sound of tap shoes sprinkled with machine gun)....... Martinevans123 (talk)

When they made you, ME123, they broke the mold. EEng (talk) 23:23, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

... eternally, in the wiki mold, alas .Martinevans123 (talk) 23:34, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

OneClick idea

Listen, while I've got you I had an idea on one-click -- how about if it doesn't add the target page (the archive page) to your watchlist? Not a big deal but I think most would prefer that.

• It does what!? What page did it add to your watchlist? Do you have "Preferences → Watchlist → Add pages and files I edit to my watchlist" or "Preferences → Watchlist → Add pages I create and files I upload to my watchlist"? — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 00:52, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I have both those checked, but so do most people. My suggestion is that one-click ignore that setting and not add the target (archive) page to the watchlist. But now that I think about it, maybe it's not worth bothering with. EEng (talk) 01:09, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline

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