Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cycling/Archive 17

This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:WikiProject Cycling. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

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Archive 17

Indentation

Hello all. Recently the indentation style we use for our major wins and major results section have been changed on a few articles due to "MOS:INDENT, MOS:INDENTGAP, and MOS:DLIST, colons as indentation cause accessibility issues. Should be formatted as an alternate list or with another indentation method."

The articles are Edward Klabiński & Fabio Jakobsen.

To combat the now cluttered look I tried to use

Example of plainlist
Wikitext	Renders as
{{plainlist \| * White rose * Yellow rose * Pink rose * Red rose }}	White rose Yellow rose Pink rose Red rose

However there is no way to indent the lines of results underneath the years.

Does anyone know how we should be creating the lists in major results?

Cheers, Paulpat99 (talk) 18:04, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

This seems to work:

White rose
Yellow rose
Pink rose
Red rose

Cheers, EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 20:46, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

I was more meaning a way to get it as such:

2012

1st Overall TDF

1st Stage 1

Is there a way with plain list to have multiple indents?

Cheers, Paulpat99 (talk) 20:54, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

It's not exactly the same, but it's something:

2012

1st Overall TDF

1st Stage 1
2nd Stage 2

3rd Overall Giro

1st Stage 5
2nd Stage 6

10th Overall something else

Regards, EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 11:26, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Classic Brugge-De Panne category

The article Classic Brugge–De Panne was moved in 2021 to reflect the renaming of the race. The eponymous category remains at Category:Three Days of Bruges–De Panne and I am thinking of raising a speedy request to move the category in line with the base article but wanted to check here first in case there is some convention which the cycling project follows of retaining previous names for categories. Am I OK to go ahead and make the request? Bcp67 (talk) 08:04, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments

Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Wikipedia:Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a |class= parameter to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass {{WPBannerMeta}} a new |QUALITY_CRITERIA=custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:57, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Requesting cycling team template edits

Is there an easy way to request changes to cycling team name templates? It's very hard to use them on race pages when the UCI code isn't used (e.g an older code is used instead) and the 2023 team name isn't used. Turini2 (talk) 13:21, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

@Turini2 When you Template:Cycling Data its easy to show the designation corresponding to a certain year. For example if you are editing an article of 2005 just add "|2005" when using template: cycling data. And you can use the current or and older UCI code. For example, using the code EFE (Education First) for 2005 {{UCI team code|EFE|2005}} will return TIAA–CREF. I hope this answer to your problem. Rpo.castro (talk) 17:26, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

@Rpo.castro Sorry, I meant fixing/updating the codes. For example, St. Michel–Mavic–Auber93 {ct|AUB women|2023} is broken, and other team names need updating. The UCI code that the team uses sometimes doesn't work. For example Team Jayco–AlUla (women's team) use JAY, but the code that works is {ct|BEX women|2023} Turini2 (talk) 13:05, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Examples of articles I'm looking to fix include 2023 Omloop Het Nieuwsblad (women's race) and 2023 Strade Bianche Donne, along with any of the UCI Women's Teams in 2023. Turini2 (talk) 13:08, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

@Turini2 Anyone can update the cycling data templates.

{ct|JAY women|2023} is working just fine with me. Check a misspell and try again. But even if it wasn't you just had to move it from BEX women to JAY women (its how you change UCI code for ct template).

{ct|AUB women|2023} isn't updated. There isn't yet the designation for 2023. If you use a year that isn't listen, the template will return the designation on the team article.

But updating the cycling data its easy. Just edit, add the new year and new designation. If you don't feel confident doing that you can leave that request on talk page or message me in my talk page and I'll do it. Rpo.castro (talk) 13:35, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Preferred name: Fangio or other

There's a merge proposal for AD Renting (cycling team), Fangio (cycling team) and Tulip Computers (cycling team), but some uncertainty as the to preferred name. Fangio is the original and longest-lived team name; AD Renting is the older page on the wiki (of these 3), and Tulip Computers was the last name used. So, preferences welcome at Talk:AD Renting (cycling team)#Proposed merge of Fangio and Tulip Computers cycling teams into ADR cycling team. Klbrain (talk) 17:47, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Help to de-orphan cycling team article

Greetings, article NRL Racing Development Cycling Team (California) was tagged as orphan in 2011. Unable to find any related cycling articles, so asking for help here. Regards, JoeNMLC (talk) 17:20, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Done - JoeNMLC (talk) 15:27, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

For cycling Results table - what is NH?

Hi - for article Matteo Jorgenson, I would like to add to table a legend/footnote to clarify what abbreviation NH is. Cheers, JoeNMLC (talk) 15:30, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Not Held recently events were not held due to the pandemic. Paulpat99 (talk) 21:39, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

@Paulpat99: - Thanks. I added legend to article.

Done JoeNMLC (talk) 14:29, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

US Bicycle Route System

I am the Adventure Cycling Association US Bicycle Route System Volunteer Coordinator. I am a volunteer with Adventure Cycling, have been working as a volunteer on the USBRS since 2004, and am not paid in any way by them or anyone else associated with the USBRS. I am a retiree and receive no income from any source other than pension, Social Security, and investments. I say this because I have been informed by Imzadi1979 that I have a conflict of interest and therefore am not permitted to edit any pages associated with the USBRS. This despite the fact that I have access to the minutes of AASHTO meetings, the USBR applications submitted by the DOTs, the historical documents associated with the USBRS and benefit in no way from providing this information to Wikipedia. Imzadi1979 informs me that the only way I can help correct, expand, and update the USBR pages is to tell somebody else what the correct information is and have them edit the pages. If someone would like to partner with me in this effort, please advise. ACAeditor (talk) 23:32, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Russian and Belarussian flags

I have looked for, but cannot find, an overarching Wikipedia policy on the presentation of flags for Russian and Belarussian flags at present. If there is one, then a reference to it would be welcome, and the conversation would be over.

In the absence of it, the question of whether or not, for example, Vlasov should have his name accompanied by a flag in articles about the current Giro or in the team listing at Bora-Hansgrohe is a valid one. The position whereby sporting organisations have decided to prohibit their flags is understood (and please do not portray me as ignorant of, nor an apologist for, Putin's actions), but their influences and purposes are different from ours. I would argue that the purpose of an encycloaedia is to provide information, and if indication of the nationality of any rider is relevant, then that is relevant for every rider. It is also incumbent on an encyclopaedia to act even handedly, without prejudice or acting on the basis of politics.

International sporting bodies are subject to political and diplomatic influences: we are not. It is no function of Wikipedia to seek to apply a sanction against Russia and Belarus. It would appear that most articles since February last year have been recorded here with the flags from these nations removed, but I would wonder whether the correctness of this course of action has ever been tested against encyclopaedic standards, which are different from compliance with UCI regulations.

Thoughts? Kevin McE (talk) 13:30, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Originally I assumed we did it because it reflected what happened at the time. But you raise a good point Wikipedia should have a Neutral point of view so the flags should represent their countries. However like others said we follow what the sources say for nationality.

I went looking for a WP Policy to show which way to go. I couldn't find one but I see that Russian/Belarusian athletes in Tennis pages e.g. 2023 Australian Open – Women's singles have a blank flag with a hat-note about them not being able to compete under their nationality. We have that same hat-note in Cycling articles, so it should reflect the world at the time. If we want to change to show their flags I think we need to have this discussion at a higher level with Wikipedia wide consensus.

Simply put the flags should stay white/blank as it shows that the athletes do not represent their countries in the sport at the moment. Paulpat99 (talk) 20:05, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

But are we saying who they represent, or simply giving information about the riders? Do what extent do they 'represent' their countries in an event such as the Giro? They do not ride in national colours (champions excepted), teams are made up of many nationalities, the national federations have no say in who rides, there is no maximmum or minimum number of riders per country; the only conclusion that can be drawn from that is that they are not there to represent their countries. Kevin McE (talk) 20:45, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Re: Draft:Lilly Yokoi

The Draft is written by an anonymous contributor and the reviewers unfamiliar with the topic suggest it isn't notable and does not pass inclusion criteria. Would you concur with this judgment or do you have access to additional sources or policies that make the draft qualify for inclusion? I got a question about this draft, am not involved in the writing or the area; this is not my strong topic area. I would greatly appreciate your advice. Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 05:38, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Gino Mäder

The cyclist Gino Mäder, who died today after a crash during the Tour de Suisse, is nominated for Recent Deaths at then main page. Any help will be appreciated.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 22:16, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Content assessment

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Content assessment#Proposal: Reclassification of Current & Future-Classes as time parameter, which is within the scope of this WikiProject. This WikiProject received this message because it currently uses "Current" and/or "Future" class(es). There is a proposal to split these two article "classes" into a new parameter "time", in order to standardise article-rating across Wikipedia (per RfC), while also allowing simultaneous usage of quality criteria and time for interest projects. Thanks! —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 21:47, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Cycling news Reliable source? if yes, Which would be right article?

I came across following 2 news articles. Whether those amount to reliable sources and if yes, which is the right article to add info in. Bookku (talk) 13:57, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Bookku (talk) 13:57, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Cycling Weekly is owned by Future plc and their brands are considered to be reliable. Other than that, I do not know more about these sources. Cheers, Vacant0 (talk) 14:21, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

From reading the British Cycling article it seems to be a reliable source Chidgk1 (talk) 17:25, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Major RfC on capitalization of all our articles

I thought this was a done deal back in this 2022 RFC but obviously not. A handful of editors did another rfc with no sports projects input at all. And it's being challenged because we just noticed it. This could affect almost every single tennis and Olympic article we have, and goodness know how many other sports. Some may have already been moved it you weren't watching the article. And not just the article titles will be affected but all the player bios that link to the articles. Sure the links would be piped to the right place if thousands of articles moved, but if the wording in a bio still said 2023 Wimbledon Championships – Men's singles or Swimming at the 2020 Summer Olympics – Men's 200 metre backstroke that would likely need to be changed by hand. There is also talk of removing the ndash completely.

Perhaps this is what sports projects want and perhaps not. Either way I certainly don't want projects ill-informed as the last RfC was handled. Express your thoughts at the following rfc. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:39, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Tinkoff (cycling team)

Tinkoff (cycling team) has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Hog Farm _Talk 04:00, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Dahlia Palmer

Could be anybody so kind to write the article about Dahlia Palmer in English. [1] --Nicola (talk) 19:00, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Done, but it needs lots of work to expand it: Dahlia Palmer. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:41, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Bicycle and motorcycle dynamics

Bicycle and motorcycle dynamics has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:15, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Moving of Template:ct

There is a discussion taking place at Template_talk:Ct#Requested_move_30_October_2023 to move the page to another name. Just wondering if anyone wants to voice their opinions. Paulpat99 (talk) 21:00, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Note to all that Ct has been renamed to "Template:UCI team code" Turini2 (talk) 10:26, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Update: {{Ct}} is now a redirect to {{Contentious topics}}, please use {{UCI team code}} from hereon. All existing usage of {{Ct}} on mainspace were updated to {{UCI team code}} as well. – robertsky (talk) 07:03, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Walden–Wallkill Rail Trail

I have nominated Walden–Wallkill Rail Trail for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Z1720 (talk) 01:09, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Multiple consecutive wins in templates

Not sure if this has been previously discussed, but it strikes me that for consecutive wins in templates, e.g. Template:Milan–San_Remo_winners, it would be much better for several reasons (looks, sense, etc) to have these separated by a comma (Erik Zabel (2000, 2001)) than by an en-dash (Erik Zabel (2000–2001)) as at present. Anyone have any thoughts about this?. Ericoides (talk) 09:24, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I only partially agree - in the case where the number of consecutive wins is only 2. Otherwise, you will get a long list of individual years. Kiwipete (talk) 08:27, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Where the en-dash makes a list more concise, it serves a purpose; is it doesn't, it doesn't. There is no advantage in listing Pogacar's TdF wins as 2020-2021, 2024 rather than 2020, 2021, 2024; however, it is helpful to record Indurain's wins as 1991-1995. Kevin McE (talk) 17:53, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Change of concensus decision on cycling team nationalities

The WikiProject Cycling page Consensus decisions displays the following decision on cycling team nationalities:

Trade cycling teams do not represent the country in which they are registered. As such, nationality should not be implied in tables through the use of flag templates (for example {{flagicon}}, {{flagathlete}} etc). (July 2009)

Considering a newer discussion on this talk page (September 2022) the above consensus is outdated. I suggest a change of rule:

Trade cycling teams, like individual riders, have a country in which they are registered and which they might represent on championships. As such, a nationality may be shown in tables and infoboxes through the use of flag templates (for example {{flagicon}}). (September 2022)

Emmarade (talk) 15:05, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Please give an example of how a team might represent a nationality in a championship? Team UAE is, in terms of personnel and racing, no more Emirati than Newcastle United is Saudi. Kevin McE (talk) 14:44, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Team UAE is registered in UAE while Newcastle in England. Its the registration not the ownership that matters. For your purpose you should argument that Newcastle is Saudi not English, which is not, thus Team UAE represents UAE in same way Newcastle represents England. Rpo.castro (talk) 17:38, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Please read what I said before you reply to it:" Team UAE is, in terms of personnel and racing, no more Emirati..." Kevin McE (talk) 18:17, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Please read what I said before you reply it: "Team UAE is registered in UAE". Nobody cares what you think people are or look like. All that matters is their license. Your argument its just pointless, and the comparison with Newcastle ridiculous. Rpo.castro (talk) 20:42, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Nobody has doubted where they are registered: the issue is whether the place of registration has any relevance. That is the point that the consensus decision makes. Astana has at various times had Swiss and Luxembourgish registrations; in the past a number of teams that were undeniably Italian in every aspect of their identity had their registration at an office of convenience in Ireland.

The proposal to change the consensus statement claims that teams represent a country in championships: that is unfounded and, despite my challenge, no-one has tried to support it.

Red-Bull Bora are owned by an Austrian company, have their registered office in Austria, but have a German licence. And if next year they change to having an Austrian licence it will make absolutely no difference to where, when and with whom they ride.

There is no prohibition on mentioning the nationality of registration within articles: that is a statement of fact that is totally appropriate: the consensus decision applies to displaying the nationality and flag in tables of results and standings, which would imply that it is in some way a national achievement to have reached such a rank: it is about representation, not registration. Kevin McE (talk) 17:08, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

In motorsport flags are used. Is really Red Bull, a team owned by an Austrian company, but based on England with mostly english personnel representing Austria? What about Mercedes? Mostly English personnel, based on England. Is it british or German? In F1 the national anthem of the team is played, so for any purposes Red Bull is Austrian, Mercedes German. If some team decide to register in Antigua Barbuda, their national anthem will play.

In cycling this was the case in UCI Road World Championships – Men's team time trial until 2018.

I can't see any current usuage of a cycling team representing a country, because teams aren't competing anymore at world championships. But the only thing that really changed was the end of a competition, not the way we look at teams or teams registrations. On other aspect

probably the press of X country will make a fuss if a team registered in that country achieves certain results, like a belgian team winning Tour de France maybe? Of course not in same level if its an individual achievement but still. If a portuguese cycling team (I m portuguese) gets some good result, it will be in the news. Other thing when we have a race there are always news about local teams and foreign teams, naming their nationality (their license). Is this worthy of getting a flag in infoboxes? I really have pros and cons. I think it might be too much having it in the infobox because its not so relevant. A team might change registration without changing anything else, but still I can see arguments in favour. And if we want to give a nationality to a team, it has to be the license, it only can be. Rpo.castro (talk) 19:26, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

What happens in motorsport has no relevance here: as you acknowledge, team nationality is celebrated in presentations, which is not the case in cycling.

The 2012-2018 WC TTT results table shows flags: that is an exception that I am sure no-one objects to. It is very untypical though, so should not create a precedent.

Your final paragraph does little to show that you are wholeheartedly behind your argument. The case for claiming that consensus has changed, when only one person has (ambivalently) argued for a change in the 6 months since the proposal was made seems to indicate that consensus is unchanged. Kevin McE (talk) 21:15, 2 September 2024 (UTC)