Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Boxing/Archive 11

This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:WikiProject Boxing. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 5

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Archive 9

Archive 10

Archive 11

WBA, WBC, IBF, WBO world champions pages

Hello, I was wondering if it would be better to change the column "Date" to "Duration of reign" in the WBA, WBC, IBF & WBO list of world champions' pages, to match the List of IBO world champions page. I find by having only the date of assumption of title (in the WBA, WBC, IBF & WBO examples), instead of the entire reign? gives the mistaken appearance that many of the WBA, WBC, IBF & WBO champions' reigned for only 'one' day. GoodDay (talk) GoodDay (talk) 17:06, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Highly agree. Date by itself forces the reader to have to glance up and down constantly to find out the span of the reign from the next titleholder's row. The IBO list has the right format. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 17:15, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

T'would make more sense. Duration of reign seems more relevant than date of win in those lengthy lists. Would it be worth trimming the dates down to just the years, except in the current year or when a reign ended the same year it was won, we can include months? The full dates have always annoyed my eyeballs. – ².O.^Boxing 19:21, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Not a good idea as they're surely meant to be exhaustive lists. To find out the date when a boxer won a title, a reader shouldn't have to navigate to their corresponding article and scroll down to the succession box. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:38, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

That's a fair point. Sorry eyeballs. – ².O.^Boxing 21:23, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

To lessen clutter, one can adopt the abbreviation style, for the months. Use (for example) "Feb 7, 2019 – Feb 7, 2021". GoodDay (talk) 22:18, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

I do like abbreviated months in tables, but seeing as you've started I'm fine with them spelled out. Saves you going back over the ones you've already done. – ².O.^Boxing 23:29, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

It's going to take a few days to bring'em all in line with the IBO champions page. Indeed the WBA champions page is a nightmare of sorts, due to its history & adoption of having concurrent (i.e Super/Regular) champions in each division. GoodDay (talk) 16:45, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

It appears that @Blizzythesnowman: opposes my implementation, concerning the 'reign' dates. GoodDay (talk) 19:39, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

@Squared.Circle.Boxing: & @Mac Dreamstate:, gonna need your advice here. Shall I continue making the proposed changes or throw in the towel. GoodDay (talk) 19:54, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Blizzy needs to come here and voice his opposition. The more look at it, this format looks poor. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:59, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

I have no problems if majority agrees with the new format. It was an old format that I followed when I was editing all of those pages 2 years ago. BlizzyBlizz (talk) 20:01, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Completed

WBA, WBC, IBF, WBO & Ring Magazine champions lists, are completed. GoodDay (talk) 04:06, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Exhibition records

It wasn't mentioned in the above RFC but I think it's safe to say the exclusion of upcoming fights extends to exhibition records, per the same rationale; they're not guaranteed to happen and the record table is a record of what has happened, not what might. Pinging @GhaziTwaissi: as we've had a revert or two on the matter. – ².O.^Boxing 12:21, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely that should be the case. Lack of common sense if they think a different guideline applies. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 18:52, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Unexplained abbreviation(s)

Not everyone who reads an article about a boxer knows all the abbreviations. For example, in the article on Dmitry Bivol, there is a box column with his fights. A lot of them have "UD" in a column called "type"(a general word that is used with some sort of specific meaning). The article nowhere explains what "UD" means. It should be explained in some way, e.g., in a footnote or maybe a mouse-over. Kdammers (talk) 18:08, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

MOS:ACRO1STUSE gives two options; link UD on the first occurrence in the record table or spell it out with the acronym in parenthesis in the prose. The latter is something I've done in a bunch of articles (see Jack Catterall), and I think fewer links is better when it comes to tables, so I prefer that option. – ².O.^Boxing 01:54, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Aren't the tooltips sufficient? They begin from the bottom of the table. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 10:19, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

ACRO1STUSE seems to suggest no, To save space in small spaces, acronyms do not need to be written out in full...When not written out in full on the first use on a page, an acronym should be linked. For usage of the tooltip it says, Upon later re-use in a long article, the template {{abbr}} can be used to provide a mouse-over tooltip. ².O.^Boxing 20:44, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Then perhaps a key, like they do at F1 articles. Long ago I had one in mind whilst compiling the MOS, but template:abbr was the quickest to implement at the time. Anything to avoid spelling out the result acronyms in the table—I've never liked the MOS:MMA way of doing it. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 21:11, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

I must say, that's a pretty cool template. Not quite sure about using it for boxing though. I'd prefer to spell it out with the acronym in parenthesis on first use, then use acronyms throughout the article. We'd also keep the tooltips with that option, which I think are handy, even though they don't work on my mobile device. My least preferred option would be linking them in the table. And let's agree to just ignore how MMA do things lol (no offence, folks). – ².O.^Boxing 11:07, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Another RfC on capitalization of all our articles

I thought this was a done deal back in this 2022 RFC but obviously not. A handful of editors did another rfc with no sports projects input at all. And it's being challenged because we just noticed it. This could affect almost every single tennis and Olympic article we have, and goodness know how many other sports. Some may have already been moved it you weren't watching the article. And not just the article titles will be affected but all the player bios that link to the articles. Sure the links would be piped to the right place if thousands of articles moved, but if the wording in a bio still said 2023 Wimbledon Championships – Men's singles or Swimming at the 2020 Summer Olympics – Men's 200 metre backstroke that would likely need to be changed by hand. There is also talk of removing the ndash completely.

Perhaps this is what sports projects want and perhaps not. Either way I certainly don't want projects ill-informed as the last RfC was handled. Express your thoughts at the following rfc. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:48, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

RfC on readding upcoming fights in professional boxing record tables

I understand this change was caused by the adding of fights with no official announcements, however it is misleading and has lead to actual fight articles being poor in quality. For example, Spence vs Crawford was one of the most anticipated fights of this generation and the quality of the article was appalling. In some instances, some important fight articles, like Fulton vs Inoue, haven’t been made due to fight articles typically being accessed and created through the record table. Moreso, it is misleading because it leads people reading Wikipedia to believe that said fighter has no upcoming fight. BoxRec displays this well and it is one of the main authorities of boxing record-keeping. Therefore, I request a discussion to add back upcoming fights to record tables. As per, choices are to Support or Oppose. Cheers. Faren29 (talk) 16:10, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Comment – Wikipedia is not BoxRec or a news ticker; it's an encyclopaedia. Opening a new RfC just months after a clear consensus on the previous one is in very bad faith: WP:CCC, "proposing to change a recently established consensus can be disruptive." Quite frankly this is an insult after all the effort it took. You had all the time in the world to participate in the original RfC but you ignored it. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 18:30, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Spare the dramatics. Opening a new RfC shortly after the previous one has closed is only bad faith if it’s quite clearly just a desperate attempt to revert a change that one doesn’t like. This has caused a serious issue and needs to be rectified. My take in the original discussion would’ve had no bearing on the verdict because a consensus was already pretty clear. Faren29 (talk) 18:18, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Well there's an admission of futility if anything. "Spare the dramatics" – way to deflect. "quite clearly just a desperate attempt to revert a change that one doesn’t like" – which is what this is. "My take in the original discussion would’ve had no bearing on the verdict because a consensus was already pretty clear" – way to prove my point. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 22:31, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

(Here from a notification at WP:NOT) Can I just say you question reads like the start of a discussion, rather than an RFC question. It's certainly not WP:RFCBRIEF. Maybe discussing this with other editors will come to a satisfactory compromise, rather than jumping to the RFC stage. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 21:04, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

The clear answer is no, per WP:NOT#CRYSTAL and WP:NOT#DATABASE and WP:NOT#SOCIAL. WP does not try to predict the future, and is not a ticket-sales or event-planning venue, nor a social-networking site for listing upcoming (you hope) events. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:15, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
Strong no per WP:CRYSTALBALL, Wikipedia is not meant to predict events/outcomes that may or may not occur in the future. I disagree with the statement that "[w]hen Fury vs Usyk inevitably happens and the fight article is poor because the fight isn't displayed on the table, that's going to be a very poor look". There is nothing stopping an editor from adding it in after the event in question has taken place, once a WP:RELIABLE source provides coverage of it. It is arguably an even worse look for Wikipedia if the information is added to the article, and the event doesn't happen. Grumpylawnchair (talk) 01:13, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
- Comment – "It is arguably an even worse look for Wikipedia if the information is added to the article, and the event doesn't happen"; this was exactly the case prior to the previous RfC. Fights were being added to record tables often with just a speculative month, or a "confirmed" date by all manner of interested parties (boxers themselves, promoters, TV networks, venue organisers, etc.), only to fall apart because of routine injuries or financial terms unable to be hashed out.

A sporting record, in the encyclopaedic sense, is a collection of information which has been verified to have taken place. I said it in the first RfC that it makes a mockery of WP, particularly the tenets WP:V and WP:CRYSTAL, to include upcoming information on a record table pertaining to such a volatile and shambolic sport as professional boxing. It is a stark outlier to all other major sports where world-famous scheduled events rarely go awry. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 17:55, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Am I missing something, but wasn't this already addressed & decided here Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Boxing/Archive 10#RfC on omitting upcoming fights in professional boxing record tables? RonSigPi (talk) 15:00, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Comment – It appears your problem here is more to do with the quality of fight articles, rather than the actual topic at hand. An issue that needs to be resolved, yes, but starting an RfC to revert a valid change is not the way to go. There are other ways around the problem. Quettagon (talk) 20:50, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

If the RfC starter is so concerned about the quality of boxing event articles, they seem to be forgetting or are unaware that they're welcome to start those articles themselves. I did just that with Froch–Groves and Froch–Groves II after becoming a bit frustrated about the lack of coverage for those two events. And it had nothing to do with record tables. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 22:36, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Technical decision

Technical decision, which is unsourced, came up as an example in a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Verifiability. I don't know anything about boxing, but if someone here knows where to find sources, I'm sure it would be appreciated. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:59, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

The Association of Boxing Commissions (ABC) describes it: "If an intentional foul causes an injury and the bout is allowed to continue, and the injury results in the bout being stopped in any round after the fourth (4th) round, the injured boxer will win by TECHNICAL DECISION if he is ahead on the score cards". The ABC offically oversees the commissions which oversee boxing matches, so they can be considered a credible authority. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:15, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Could you please add that information to the article? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:22, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Bob Foster

There appears to be a major mix up over when Bob Foster was born. Was it 1937, 1938 or 1942. GoodDay (talk) 06:52, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Infobox boxer

I've been looking at infoboxes from other sports and some have cool stuff we could implement. Template:Infobox baseball biography and Template:Infobox tennis biography have fields for when a player turned professional and retired, which are nice to see. For boxers, readers have to scroll all the way down to the bottom of the record table or Professional career section. Why not simply copy the fields for our purposes? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:01, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Wording of multi-weight champions/WBA titles

User:Ronten5 brings up a valid point regarding Gervonta Davis, in that it can be questioned as to whether he is a legitimate three-weight champion. There are sources which say both, but we could nonetheless try to come up with our own compromise on WP, without outright denying that a boxer won a WBA Regular "world title".

If they have won a mix of WBA Super/Regular titles, and if there is a dispute—such as in the case of Regular titlist Davis not facing his Super titlist peers—we could perhaps avoid linking to the triple champion (and upwards) articles. Just list the titles they have won, but not label them as an x-weight champion. This would apply to several boxers of the past three decades since the WBA Regular titles were introduced. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 16:38, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes let's just list the titles they won, instead of labeling them as x-weight champion. Ronten5 (talk) 23:01, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Omar Albanil

The article Omar Albanil has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Non notable boxer or businessman

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.

Thanks and God bless!

Antonio Locococoloco Martin (He he he he) 11:12, August 23, 2021 (UTC)

Boxing fight article parameters

Hi! I'd like to establish some parameters as far as notability for boxing fights. As there have been tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of boxing fights, including world championship ones, parameters should be established as to which boxing fights should have an independent article apart from being mentioned in the respective boxers' articles and which should not. The article criteria should be:

Main or co-main events on Pay Per View
- HBO
- Showtime
- Or another country's equivalent to those American channels
Fights with a proven historical context or impact (therefore Wilfredo Gomez versus Carlos Zarate, Gomez vs. Salvador Sanchez, The no Mas Fight and Jack Dempsey vs. Georges Carpentier, for example, would qualify)
Fights where a country or a continent crowned its first world boxing champion
Major organization's (IBF, WBA, WBC, WBO) unification bouts
Ring Magazine fight of the year award winning fights
- Knockout of the year
- Upset of the year
- Fight of the decade
Fights that led to major changes in boxing rules or where a major scandal took place

should qualify as notable enough or as notability establishing standards for boxing fights as events notable enough to have their articles on wikipedia. What do you all think? Thanks and God bless! Antonio Beaten by a knockout Martin (loser talk) 14:46, July 25, 2022 (UTC)

Imane_Khelif RFC

There's an RFC concerning how Imane_Khelif genetics and gender should be referred to in the lead at Talk:Imane_Khelif#RfC_lead. Editors are invited to participate. TarnishedPath^talk 10:47, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Daniel Hennessey (ring announcer)

Hey Can someone help me out please? I am not sure what to do next. I am pretty sure I am done. If i need to do more I can but I want to see if this is ready to be publish and how do i do that with this. for context here is this [1] [2]. Bennyaha (talk) 21:37, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Deletion of a group of articles

I've recently stumbled across a group of British boxers who I don't think are notable enough for Wikipedia pages, including Louis Norman, Thomas Essomba, Joe Maphosa, and a few other related fighters. Anyone have differing opinions on any of these fighters? I'd feel a bit bad going on deletion spree without some input. Most of these are out of date/don't follow the MOS so I'll try to update any we choose to keep around. ZenZekey (talk) 06:00, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

~~Norman (challenged for a British title) and Essomba (won a European title) would fulfil notability, but not Maphosa as he doesn't appear to have challenged for any titles.~~ Stratch that, I was going by an old edition of WP:NBOX. I would still say Essomba is worth keeping, because the European title is the highest regional achievement on the continent. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 18:56, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Appreciate the input! Essomba was the main one I was debating with myself. I'm traveling for the next couple days but when I'm back home I'll update his article and nominate the others for deletion. ZenZekey (talk) 17:05, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

2024 Olympics

For anyone in an article-creating mood, the 2024 Summer Olympics starts in 10 days and there are a number qualified boxers still missing articles, many of whom are likely notable. See here: 52 men's boxers and 39 women's boxers missing articles. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:19, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Revisiting rankings

In multiple boxer articles across Wikipedia, I have noticed and removed[3][4] the "dynamic" listings of rankings in the lead of their respective articles because a) they are often not regularly updated and more importantly (b) they are not cited to independent reliable sources outside of the ranking organisations themselves which causes WP:NOTCV and WP:UNDUE concerns. WP:LEADs are supposed to be summaries about major parts of the article. There was a previous discussion at WP:BOXING about the rankings where there didn't seem to be consensus about their inclusion in the lead.[5] I believe that if dynamic rankings are to be included anywhere, they should be in the infoboxes. Should there be a RfC about this to gain wider feedback outside the Wikiproject? Morbidthoughts (talk) 01:33, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

As far as divisional and all-time rankings go, I'd like to see the back of them. I particularly dislike BoxRec's "all-time greatest" dynamic rankings peppered everywhere. I've said it before that they're a chore to go around updating, and User:Morbidthoughts presents a good point with regards to WP:WEIGHT. Which are more credible—myriad outlets such as The Ring, TBRB, BoxRec, or ESPN; or the sanctioning bodies themselves? I think neither, really. I also would not mind getting rid of pound for pound rankings, although The Ring's rankings tend to get significant coverage whenever there's a clear world's number one. However, when it comes to TBRB and all the others being shoehorned into lead sections—who cares? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 23:08, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Imane Khelif

There are currently two RFCs at Talk:Imane Khelif. Interested editors are invited to participate at Talk:Imane Khelif/Archive 4#RfC lead and Talk:Imane Khelif/Archive 4#RfC on weight of "misinformation" in lead. TarnishedPath^talk 10:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Rocky Balboa (film)

Rocky Balboa (film) has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 20:57, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Glossary of boxing terms

I don't know enough to even start such an article; but it strikes me as a glaring hole in Wikipedia, which has such articles on several other games and sports (including, ptui!, Glossary of professional wrestling terms). There are the technical terms; and expressions which have entered everyday language include: toe the line (from bareknuckle days), saved by the bell, box into a corner, out for the count, and left/right hook in the military sense. Do any members of this WikiProject feel able to step up to the mark (another term from bareknuckle days)? Narky Blert (talk) 15:02, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Not to mention (duh) knockout and low blow. Narky Blert (talk) 16:35, 5 September 2024 (UTC)