Talk:Imane Khelif/Archive 4

Archive 1

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Archive 3

Archive 4

Facts from the IBA

Why is the letter from the IBA on the 2 boxers in question not referenced in this Wikipedia entry (https://www.iba.sport/news/iba-clarifies-the-facts-the-letter-to-the-ioc-regarding-two-ineligible-boxers-was-sent-and-acknowledged/)? Both boxers tested positive for XY chromosomes in two different, independent tests. The first was conducted in Turkey, the second in India. Only after the second tests were both disqualified, because the IBA only allows humans with XX chromosomes to take part in the female categories. The letter stating this result was acknowledged at least by Imane. Both boxers were given the chance to appeal to the CAS in Switzerland, but neither decides to pursue this. Nothing has changed in their status. They are ineligible to take part in IBA sanctioned events including the world championships. All of these facts should be stated in the article. Lechia (talk) 01:11, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

A) That is a primary source. Refer to WP:BLPPRIMARY. B) The IBA is discredited. TarnishedPath^talk 01:53, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

If the letter is to be mentioned, maybe the thing to say is (per the timeline in that letter), the "rule" that was used by IBA to disqualify the 2 boxers in March 2023 wasn't in effect before May 2023. Certainly contributes to understanding why IBA is considered unfit to run an Olympic sport Jonnosan (talk) 03:56, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

No, we shouldn't mention it at all on the basis of the letter itself. We should be very careful with sources here particularly as there are diagnosis or speculation about the medical conditions of a living person which intersect with the GENSEX contentious topic area. TarnishedPath^talk 04:31, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Medical opinion

Followers of this talk page will know I've only supported the idea of including medical test results, and lab reports (which are primary sources) if they have been reported by a reliable source. Up until today, I don't think I've seen a reliable source giving answers about this material. We saw a report by Alan Abrahamson, who is certainly an excellent sports reporter, but his material was only ever published on his blog, which has no editorial oversight, and therefore isn't a reliable source.

Today I notice this report in the Sydney Morning Herald which is certainly a reliable source, with remarks from what seems to be a first-rate primary source, being Dr Ioannis Filippatos, an obstetrician and gynaecologist of 30 years. Dr Filippatos is president of the European Boxing Confederation.

With regards to our subject, Filippatos is quoted as saying:

“I’m trying to say the medical results from the laboratory say this boxer is man. We’re trying now to find out why it happened like that. We’re not against Khelif. Our problem is that we have two blood exams with chromosomes of a man. This is not my answer, it’s the answer from the laboratory."

Here we have a qualified medical specialist, examining the lab results that have been discussed on this talk page, and making a clear statement, that the subject has given "two blood exams with chromosomes of a man." This is reported in a reliable source, namely, the Sydney Morning Herald. I believe this material is significant to the understanding of the subject and should be included. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 01:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC) sock strike

This is the unsubstantiated claim that was made by Filippatos during the IBA's shambolic press conference in which Umar Kremlev called Thomas Bach a "sodomite". M.Bitton (talk) 02:01, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

To wit, earlier in this article, the very same doctor is quoted in the very same press conference as saying: "They have high levels of testosterone, like a man...They have men’s level of testosterone. We don’t know if they were born a man – we don’t have anything to confirm [that]." So it certainly is not a clear statement, given that Filippatos obviously thinks that having XY chromosomes is equivalent to having been "born a man". Not to mention, the article itself calls the press conference in question "farcical"; to deliberately leave out this context and present this article as lending any credibility to Filippatos or the IBA is...well, it strains AGF. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 03:12, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

"The President of the European Boxing Confederation is unreliable because he said something I found offensive." Okay but no 2600:1700:76F1:E8A0:CF48:292E:86A5:C21 (talk) 18:49, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

If we have assertions in the field of medicine we're going to need WP:MEDRS sources for that. An expert merely parroting an unreliable primary source does not cut it. TarnishedPath^talk 04:57, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

WP:MEDRS has nothing to do with claims about a persons medical history, diseases, or genetic conditions. We don't cite WP:MEDRS sources to discuss Cheech Marin having been born with a cleft lip, or Michael J. Fox having Parkinsons.

This being said, I agree that this particular doctors claims are WP:UNDUE. If his claims are true, eventually, it will be verified by other sources -- and I suspect that specific sporting organizations will adjudicate their policies as they see fit. But invoking WP:MEDRS simply because one of only a few accredited institutions didn't do a proper peer-reviewed study about this individual, which is what I understand what the spirit of MEDRS as a policy requires, seems like a stretch. If I'm wrong here, can please point me to where WP:MEDRS makes requirements around reliable sources making claims of any genetic conditions on BLPs? Kcmastrpc (talk) 14:11, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the perspective on WP:MEDRS, @TarnishedPath and @Kcmastrpc. Seems clear that it's a guideline for articles dedicated to a medical topic.

@Writ Keeper and @M.Bitton, about the press conference, I guess there's a kind of tragic-comedy to its lack of order, but that really isn't relevant here.

The only things that matter are whether there's a reliable source providing information about the subject, and if the primary source being referred to by that reliable source has some kind of medical authority.

I completely concur that this doctor, being Dr Filippatos, is making no declaration about whether the subject is male or female, or even whether the subject should compete in the female category or not; only that blood samples from the subject indicate XY chromosomes.

That appears to be noteworthy and appears to come from a reliable source. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 23:49, 14 August 2024 (UTC) sock strike

Unsubstantiated claims made in the middle of a shit show in which the shady IBA was meant to provide some evidence are neither reliable nor noteworthy. M.Bitton (talk) 00:06, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Wait, just to be clear this: ...it's a guideline for articles dedicated to a medical topic. < is not accurate. The topic of the article isn't the important part, it's the nature of the statement that determines whether or not MEDRS is needed.

A MEDRS source isn't necessarily needed for stating if she does or doesn't have any given medical condition. What is needed is an abundance of super high quality sources and/or a statement from Imane herself, because personal medical information is the type of thing that can do a whole lot of WP:HARM. A MEDRS source would be needed for any claims about a medical condition (i.e. in a "She has X which means Y" setting, MEDRS may be needed for the Y part).

I do agree with this claim being UNDUE though, and I don't think it meets the bar for inclusion in this case. CambrianCrab (talk) 00:07, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

The IBA is not a reliable source. Any mere parroting of their claims is not significant. TarnishedPath^talk 01:04, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Dr Ioannis Filippatos is an IBA employee according to the EBC's website (https://eubcboxing.org/presidents/). This makes him a WP:COISOURCE. Flounder fillet (talk) 01:52, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I encourage calm.

Wiki editors don't make decisions about content depending on how serene a particular press conference was.

We decide using reliable sources.

The Sydney Morning Herald is a reliable source.

The content of its article is relevant and should be taken into account. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 10:13, 16 August 2024 (UTC) sock strike

Yes, the Sydney Morning Herald is a reliable source, therefore, we know that Dr Filippatos said that, and that the fact that he said that was covered by the media. We also know that Dr Filippatos is an IBA employee, so this information is just "doctor agrees with one of his employers". This does not merit inclusion unless more coverage of the IBA's POV is WP:DUE. Flounder fillet (talk) 15:17, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, I assure you that my original reply is very calm, at least in English (warranty void if text translated). Flounder fillet (talk) 15:26, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

There's no WP policy that suggests a medical opinion should be discounted if a person works for a particular organisation.

We are agreed that the source is reliable. I see no controversy in having the doctor's view on the subject's chromosomes and testosterone levels reported. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 11:54, 18 August 2024 (UTC) sock strike

If you do add this to the article remember that per WP:COISOURCE you have to make it clear that Dr Filippatos is an IBA employee. Flounder fillet (talk) 18:57, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Why? MatthewDalhousie (talk) 21:55, 18 August 2024 (UTC) sock strike

See WP:NIS, WP:COISOURCE. Flounder fillet (talk) 17:47, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated medical claims do not belong in a BLP article. M.Bitton (talk) 19:08, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Dr Filippatos completed his clinical training in Chicago and Cambridge. He is Senior Consulting Editor for JACC-HF. He has published over 500 peer-reviewed papers. He is in the Thomson Reuters list of Highly Cited Researchers. The doctor has seen the lab reports and is more than qualified to give an informed opinion. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 21:55, 18 August 2024 (UTC) sock strike

That doesn't change the fact that the claim is unsubstantiated (the doctor, an employee of the IBA, is simply repeating the IBA's claims without providing any evidence). M.Bitton (talk) 22:42, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

The article indicates that the doctor has received the results. Which is what doctors do. They receive results from lab testing, and they articulate those results. We expect doctors to be able to do that. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 03:09, 19 August 2024 (UTC) sock strike

Yes but the real problem is that including this in the article doesn't push the POV that certain editors upthread would prefer to be expressed. 2A00:23EE:2638:64D9:402B:E8A5:FE90:91D (talk) 18:23, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Not all doctors are created equal. We wouldn't accept Peter Duesberg's word on HIV/AIDS, for example. The mere fact that someone is a doctor does not absolve them of other RS considerations. WP:RS says: Articles should be based on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. In this case, Filippatos fails the "independent" criterion; he is (or was) a direct employee of one of the parties in the dispute (the IBA) and so cannot be trusted as a reliable source, since he has a conflict of interest that favors the IBA. That doesn't go away just because he has a doctorate. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:34, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Really interesting perspective @Writ Keeper. I 100% agree with your first three sentences. The key is publication.

I like what you've pointed out about the discredited German. That's an authority we don't use, not because he's a member of this or that professional association, but because publishers won't publish him.

Filippatos has published over 500 peer-reviewed papers. There are no questions about his abilities to assess medical questions (except here on this talk page.)

Wiki isn't about the popularity of an idea, or whether a person articulating that idea is in fashion or not.

And so we still have a reliable source, with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, who have published a primary source who, likewise, has an unblemished record for being factual. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 22:48, 19 August 2024 (UTC) sock strike

Sorry, @Writ Keeper, just wanted to set down a marker, that this is not going to be the place where wiki foments some massive gang-up conspiracy against a respected academic physician. If you do have evidence of some journal refusing to publish, or a forced retraction, would very much want to see evidence set out here. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 22:56, 19 August 2024 (UTC) sock strike

The group controlling this talk page appears to consistently employ weak arguments and questionable interpretations of Wikipedia policies to block the inclusion of any information that might suggest the IBA test has validity or was conducted for reasons beyond conspiratorial motives. 172.56.228.5 (talk) 00:21, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

There is no compelling evidence that the IBA actually performed any tests of anything. --JBL (talk) 00:55, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Again.

We have a reliable source, being the Sydney Morning Herald, reporting on the findings of a qualified doctor, who is a respected, published authority. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 01:41, 20 August 2024 (UTC) sock strike

While I broadly share your perspective on what should be included in the article, is this a case of mistaken identity? As far as I can tell, Gerasimos Filippatos (the JACC-HF senior editor you mention) and Ioannis Filippatos (the EUBC president) are two separate people. TracingWoodgrains (talk) 01:45, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this certainly seems to be true; thanks. Foolish of me to take claims at face value. MatthewDalhousie: you appear to be talking about a completely different person than the one cited in the Sydney Morning Herald. I don't see any published research papers by Ionnadis Filippatos.

Though, even if we did, that's not how reliable sourcing works. The Sydney Morning Herald is not a peer-reviewed research paper. Being a doctor does not make one immune to being biased, or having conflicts of interest. And furthermore, the Sydney Morning Herald article was not citing Filippatos as an independent authority, but as an employee of the IBA who was called on to defend the governing body’s actions. It also doesn't at all endorse Filippatos's conclusions, providing a rebuttal: However, endocrinologists say sex is not as simple as males having XY chromosomes and females XX, and that people can be born with different biological arrangements. This is not a normal "reliable newspaper cites an authority on the subject", this is a "reliable newspaper covers a farcical press conference, that happens to include a person with an MD on the employee list." Filippatos's statement is not reliable for the same reason a press release from the IBA wouldn't be reliable, even if it was Filippatos who authored it. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 02:07, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

She's not a professional boxer that needs to be removed

Imane Khelif is not a pro boxer 71.168.111.149 (talk) 17:44, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

The article says, with plausible references, that she boxes professionally at least some of the time. I don't know how that interacts with her boxing in the Olympics or whether we need to change the description. What's the deal here? --DanielRigal (talk) 17:49, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

"IOC does not test athletes for gender" - what???

This phrase makes absolutely no sense. Gender is a sociological phenomenon, not a biological one; it makes as much sense to talk of a biological test for the state of being a folk singer as for gender. I'm sure that what was intended was "IOC does not perform chromosome testing on athletes," but that's not what was said. I know that the current wording is the phrase that the Washington Post used and we're just quoting it here, but the Post is just plain wrong, about an extremely basic, elementary-school-level understanding of this topic, and Wikipedia should not be perpetuating the false belief that the words "gender" and "sex" are completely interchangeable.

I did attempt to find a source to replace this citation, but unfortunately, I couldn't. It seems that this extremely basic, elementary-school-level misunderstanding is very pervasive in news reporting and our culture in general. (I can't say I'm surprised, given how often it happens that an elementary school math problem that's only confusing because it's deliberately poorly worded goes viral on social media by causing arguments among people who don't remember the order of operations.) If anyone can find a source that simply says "IOC does not perform chromosome tests on athletes," I'd recommend replacing the current incorrect wording with that correct one. Wehpudicabok (talk) 21:54, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

agreed. Also, like we have the article Sex verification in sports which is specifically about sex... we really should be using the correct terminology. doing a quick edit on one part of the article, though we probs should fix the rest. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 22:16, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I think what the statement is supposed to mean is not "IOC does not test athletes to identify their gender" but "IOC does not test athletes to verify their gender". The latter would seem to make sense and not require any head-scratching or potential WP:SYNTH (as multiple sources I checked refer to gender tests, not chromosome tests). By all means the article could be reworded to make that clearer, possibly with an alternative source that better phrases the distinction in their own words. But the reason you can't find a source to replace the citation would seem to be because you're trying to find something that the IOC have not said. JustAnotherCompanion (talk) 22:57, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

fair enough. though distinction between sex and gender is real, so news getting it wrong is frustrating Bluethricecreamman (talk) 23:20, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

"She initially appealed to the Court of Arbitration for Sport but the appeal was terminated since Khelif couldn't pay the procedural costs."

Asked and answered. Ongoing kvetching is disruptive.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This line strikes me as particularly baseless, it's not mentioned in the citation, and there is quite a lot of evidence to the contrary. CAS was a court set up by the IOC for amateur athletes, it only charges 1,000 (£900) Swiss Francs to lodge an appeal, any bills incurred by the expenses of arbiters etc. can be paid for out of your winnings. Khelif was and is a successful amateur, having won multiple large cash prizes, including the IBA Golden Belt Series in 2022 ($200,000) and Silver at the 2022 IBA World Championships ($50,000). The idea that she could not afford the $1,200 appeal in 2023 and wouldn't have been motivated to do so to continue winning these large cash prizes from the IBA is highly illogical. Snuffsaid (talk) 06:59, 29 August 2024 (UTC) Just to clarify, this IS addressed in citation #40 ( https://www.smh.com.au/sport/boxing/women-s-category-must-be-only-women-doctor-defends-iba-bans-at-farcical-press-conference-20240806-p5jzsv.html ) which states While Lin did not appeal the IBA’s decision, Khelif challenged the ruling through CAS in April 2023. The IBA paid what it claimed was its fair share of procedural costs. Three months later, CAS issued a termination order because Khelif could not fund the costs of the matter. Jonnosan (talk) 08:20, 29 August 2024 (UTC) It isn't mentioned in the first citation and I was hit by a paywall for that one, but what is THEIR source? This hasn't been widely reported elsewhere or linked to any statement Khelif made, so choosing the Sydney Morning Herald seems like quite extreme selection bias. The words "couldn't pay" are total speculation and strongly imply Khelif could not afford this process, this is very charged and misleading language. CAS is designed to support amateur athletes within their financial means and Khelif makes considerably more money than the average amateur boxer. Snuffsaid (talk) 08:48, 29 August 2024 (UTC) I couldn't comment as to why SMH was selected in this case, I can note however that per WP:RSPS There is consensus that The Sydney Morning Herald is generally reliable Jonnosan (talk) 09:49, 29 August 2024 (UTC) BTW not that it really matters but the CAS regs do state (article R64.2) that arbitration cost is paid in advance, contrary to your description above, and this advance is paid equally by both claimant and respondent. This is on top of 1000 franc fee paid by the claimaint at time of registration. Jonnosan (talk) 10:28, 29 August 2024 (UTC) In this particular case, some of the most generally reliable sources have been surprisingly unreliable, even the BBC with their erroneous comments about the two WADA-accredited labs involved. While other sections of this Wiki page seem to have a quite pronounced bias (such as the conspiratorial mention of Khelif defeating Azalia Amineva), this line in particular about Khelif being unable to afford the CAS appeal is completely unsubstantiated and speculative. It really needs changing to either "did not pay", or simply cutting entirely. The facts are the appeal was withdrawn because Khelif did not pay, the reasons she did not pay are not publicly known. Regarding arbitration costs: you cannot pay an arbiters expenses before the conclusion of the case because you quite simply do not know what those expenses will be. CAS lists examples such as travel, hotels and meals; these cannot be calculated before they have actually happened, making paying them in advance an impossibility. Again, CAS was set up by the IOC (who support Khelif) to help amateur athletes in cases such as this. It wouldn't be fit for purpose if it wasn't affordable by somebody as successful as Khelif who regularly wins medals and large cash prizes. Snuffsaid (talk) 10:34, 29 August 2024 (UTC) here is the relevant part of reg R64.2, showing how the thing you describe as being impossible is achieved... To determine the amount to be paid in advance, the CAS Court Office shall fix an estimate of the costs of arbitration, which shall be borne by the parties in accordance with Article R64.4. The advance shall be paid in equal shares by the Claimant(s)/Appellant(s) and the Respondent(s) Jonnosan (talk) 10:44, 29 August 2024 (UTC) That is the arbiters hourly rate, not their actual expenses. The arbiters fees are listed on the website. If you would like a ballpark idea of how much this costs in total, an example case (SFT 4A_692) between a US gymnast and USADA was 16,000 Swiss Francs. This is quite obviously a worthwhile endeavour if you know you are going to win, given you are reimbursed for your trouble and then in Khelif's case can also continue to win yearly cash prizes upwards of $250,000 as Khelif did in 2022. Upon winning the appeal she also would have been awarded a further $50,000 when her 2023 Silver medal was restored, not to mention $100,000 for this Olympic Gold medal she just won (the IBA pay boxers for Olympic medals, too). The idea that Khelif "could not" afford the appeal is baseless. Snuffsaid (talk) 11:00, 29 August 2024 (UTC) For clarity, SFT 4A_692 advance costs (in 2016) were 18,000 swiss francs (per party - 36,000 total), not 16,000 Anyway in summary, looks like the sitation is: one RS states she couldnt fund the arbitration costs there are no relevant reliable sources that tells us how much those costs were you believe she could in fact have funded the (currently unknown to us) arbitration costs, but (for reasons not yet disclosed), chose not to Do you know if there are any RS that give any alternative reasons for why she didnt pay the arbitration costs? Otherwise seems like it's just baseless speculation to assert the SMH article is wrong about the matter. Jonnosan (talk) 11:41, 29 August 2024 (UTC) 18,000 is correct. However the baseless speculation is that she "could not" afford it, the "reliable source" does not have a source of their own, it is fabricated and this particular article was clearly chosen for the same selection bias that runs rampant through this entire article, given the lack of any other reliable sources making this claim. Either way, the burden of proof is not on me to prove a negative, particularly because I am not suggesting to insert my own speculation on the matter that she could (easily) afford it, I am suggesting the line speculating that she couldn't afford it is removed. This would be the impartial position. Snuffsaid (talk) 11:49, 29 August 2024 (UTC) This is becoming disruptive! We have one Reliable Source that directly supports the content. Either provide a comparably reliable source that disputes it or this is just your own personal original research and you need to drop the stick and stop using Wikipedia to float personal theories per WP:NOTFORUM. DanielRigal (talk) 11:53, 29 August 2024 (UTC) The Syndey Morning Herald has no source of it's own for this line. No other reliable sources have reported this. The BBC describe it as such, notably without the added speculation: "Lin did not appeal the decision, while Khelif did take her case to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (Cas), but then withdrew the appeal." Again, I am not suggesting adding my own theory, I am suggesting removing yours. Snuffsaid (talk) 11:57, 29 August 2024 (UTC) You have not presented reliable source/s in support of your claim that SMH is engaging in baseless speculation or that its story is a fabrication. If you do have access to such reliable source/s it would be helpful for you to present them rather than engaging in unsupported assertions. TarnishedPathtalk 11:57, 29 August 2024 (UTC) The Sydney Morning Herald is a solidly WP:GREL source. You're not going to get anywhere with an argument otherwise. TarnishedPathtalk 11:51, 29 August 2024 (UTC) Are you suggesting "solidly reliable sources" never make mistakes? Because even the BBC made quite a huge one on this case regarding WADA-accreditation. The Syndey Morning Herald has no source of it's own for this line. No other reliable sources have reported this. The BBC describe it as such, notably without the added speculation: "Lin did not appeal the decision, while Khelif did take her case to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (Cas), but then withdrew the appeal." Snuffsaid (talk) 11:56, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Why did request to remove "Azalia Amineva [ru], a previously unbeaten Russian prospect" was deleted ?

By the time of this IBA tournamnet 2023, Azalia Amineva had at least two losses : Amineva-Dolgatova 2021 and Amineva-Dolgatova 2022.Sources:

2021: Report from website of Ministry of Sport of Republic of Bashkorstan (Amineva was born there) of Russian Federation about Amineva-Dalgatova fight at Russian Women Boxing championship-2021 (in Russian) In the fight for a place in the final, the athlete from the Republic of Bashkortostan, Amineva Azalia, lost to her more experienced opponent, a native of the Republic of Dagestan, Dalgatova Saadat..' https://sport.bashkortostan.ru/presscenter/news/414309

2022: Report of Ministry of Sport of Russian Federation on Spartakiada-2022, in PDF, from official webste of Russian Boxing Federation. Russian Summer's Sports Spartakiad-2022, Amineva-Dalgatova fight as of 25 Aug 2022 is on page 15. https://admin.rusboxing.ru/media/documents/%D0%9E%D0%A2%D0%A7%D0%95%D0%A2_%D0%92%D0%A1%D0%95%D0%A0%D0%9E%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%98%D0%99%D0%A1%D0%9A%D0%90%D0%AF_%D0%A1%D0%9F%D0%90%D0%A0%D0%A2%D0%90%D0%9A%D0%98%D0%90%D0%94%D0%90_%D0%91%D0%9E%D0%9A%D0%A1_KxgT9nl.pdf 94.253.2.129 (talk) 18:47, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Its not deleted. See: Talk:Imane_Khelif/Archive_3#Please_delete_"...previously_unbeaten_Russian_prospect"_after_Azalia_Amineva_mentioning

There is a bot that archives conversations if there isn't any activity for a while. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:09, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

The IBA themselves say she was unbeaten and then there are a bunch of reliable sources which say she was undefeated. TarnishedPath^talk 22:44, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

No one of mainstream mass-media isn't reliable in specific sports, even if they ask their sports editors to check non-sport articles (if they do). Especially on cases where one needs to study history of sports events for particular boxer, especially when there are no English-sources for local boxing official events.

If they need to get info on boxer, they google it and first link will be Boxrec. Which is not accurate regarding completeness of particular boxer history. In case of Amineva, there is no record on her participation in Russian Women Boxing championship 2021, for example (I assume it is because Boxrec specializes on professional boxing events).

As for IBA, I assume "unbeaten"/"undefeated" is used as advertisement for boxer in IBA-run events. In IBA's news, there are other boxers mentioned as "undefeated internationally", "undefeated professionally" which means they could have losses in other type of official boxing events. For example,

Women’s 75kg – India’s Sanamacha Thokchom Chanu is still undefeated in the international events

https://www.iba.sport/news/the-womens-finals-have-concluded-india-finishes-on-top-with-seven-gold-medals/

While this boxer Sanamacha Thokchom Chanu had one bronze (=she lost) at Khelo India Youth Games Pune, Maharashtra, 2019-Bronze

https://boxingfederation.in/sanamacha-chanu-75kg/ 94.253.2.129 (talk) 15:23, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

If you think outlets like Reuters are unreliable for sports you need to go ask that question at WP:RS/N. Until you get consensus to that effect I'm not going to take the claim that Reuters are unreliable for sports seriously. TarnishedPath^talk 06:08, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

The way you are single-handedly throttling and controlling the narrative on this subject is highly unethical. This irrelevant line about Azalia Amineva is to fuel spurious and unsubstantiated conspiracy theories that the IBA "framed" Khelif to undo this mark on Amineva's record, with no explanation as to why Yu-ting was disqualified. This is one of a number of unsubstantiated claims you have allowed on to this page, including the one I challenged about Khelif not being able to afford the CAS appeal that you just unceremoniously closed. I created this Wikipedia account specifically because I have never before seen such a flagrantly bias Wikipedia page, and it is alarming to see the same name shutting down every challenge to the most egregious claims. Snuffsaid (talk) 12:16, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

If you think the sources are unreliable for the claims made take it to WP:RS/N. In the absence of that you should dial back the rhetoric. TarnishedPath^talk 13:00, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I cited the BBC making the same statement about Khelif withdrawing the appeal, they reported it without the speculation that the Syndey Morning Herald added about Khelif being unable to afford the costs. I am not challenging the Sydney Herald's overall reliability, this could have been an honest error, it could have been anything, but it wasn't sourced and it's impossible to find it anywhere else. So I am primarily challenging the selection bias. This has created a situation where to get rid of this particular line, somebody would have to prove a negative, as no other reputable source has reported it and you are not accepting that as evidence, so it appears you would only accept a reputable source directly challenging this throwaway line, which is highly unlikely to happen regardless of it's veracity.

In this other issue, sources are correct that Imane Khelif defeated Azalia Amineva, however people are challenging it's relevancy in regards to the disqualification, which is the section of the Wikipedia page this is listed under. Why is this here, if not to imply this was the IBA's motive for the disqualification?

Neither of these particular sentences should be on the page as they both misleading and bias. Snuffsaid (talk) 13:19, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

The BBC not stating a reason for why the appeal was withdrawn is not evidence that SMH engaged in speculation. If you're claiming that particular story is unreliable for the claim you need evidence. Don't waste my time until you have it. TarnishedPath^talk 13:29, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Again, this is asking me to prove a negative.

The evidence is that the claim isn't sourced, isn't attributed to Khelif and doesn't appear anywhere else. Not only not on the BBC, but anywhere. If you know of any other source that reported this I will happily withdraw this complaint. Until then this is clear selection bias using the only instance of an unsubstantiated claim to create a false narrative. There is no evidence whatsoever that Khelif "could not afford the procedural costs" and this line was included to dismiss the strongest piece of evidence the IBA has in it's own defence, that neither athlete appealed. Snuffsaid (talk) 13:42, 29 August 2024 (UTC)