Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/4/Archive 78

Archive 75

Archive 76

Archive 77

Archive 78

Remove Stratigraphic unit  5

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VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Physical sciences is at 1 article over quota. This is a sparse article on rocks that seems more suitable for V5. We already list Stratigraphy  4. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. J947 ‡ ^edits 05:52, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
3. _pbp 03:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 00:27, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
5. Makkool (talk) 14:13, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Automotive engineering  5

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Much fewer interwikis than all the other engineering articles listed there (this has 20, the second lowest has 37, the highest has 101). We're over quota in total V4 and V4 Technology. starship.paint (RUN) 08:28, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:28, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 17:15, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 00:27, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
5. Makkool (talk) 14:13, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• I wonder if Computer engineering  5 should be swapped in here? Aszx5000 (talk) 20:13, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

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Add History of Bangladesh  5 and History of the Democratic Republic of the Congo  5

Histories of two high population non-Western countries that would help reduce sysbias. Vileplume (talk) 23:09, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 23:09, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Weak support Bangladesh. See my rationale in the Oppose section. feminist🩸 (talk) 06:07, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Interstellarity (talk) 10:58, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose DRC. Both countries are relatively recent social constructs (DRC 1960; Bangladesh 1971). While Bangladesh is perhaps a middle power with significant exports of clothing, the DRC has little influence internationally. feminist🩸 (talk) 05:51, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

1. Any suggestions for compensating removals? (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 05:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Looking back at this, something like History of Kenya  5 is more vital than that of the DRC. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Remove Booting  5

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We are over quota in Level 4 and Booting  5 is nowhere near as important as other computer topics at this level. Given the rise of flash memory chips and instantaneous-booting, I am not sure that this is even a level 5 topic. Aszx5000 (talk) 09:38, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Aszx5000 (talk)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 13:15, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:24, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
4. As nom, but I still think this should be a VA, just at level 5. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 12:05, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 03:33, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Climbing  4

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I think Climbing  4 is at least Level 4. It is the head topic for the established Level 4 sub-topics of Mountaineering  4 and of Rock climbing  4, as well as other Level 5s (e.g. Sport climbing  5). It also includes the Olympic sport of climbing, which is Competition climbing, and should itself be at VA 5 (there are other climbing sub-topics which should also be VA 5). Climbing is equivalent to other Level 3 R&E topics such as Swimming  3. I think Climbing should ultimately be Level 3 but it must get to Level 4 first. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:10, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:10, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 14:53, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Interstellarity (talk) 19:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
5. I agree that this should probably be Level 3. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:30, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Remove Extensive farming  5

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VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota. This is a sparse article that does not appear important enough at this level. Compare with Intensive farming  4. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 13:48, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 23:59, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
5. Makkool (talk) 14:13, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Non-binary gender  5

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I feel this is closer to level 3 than to level 5 since it is more common these days. I think level 4 is sufficient for this article. Interstellarity (talk) 16:50, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 16:50, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Sigh, sad oppose from someone who identifies with a nonbinary gender. I would add both Third gender  5 and LGBT first. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 23:31, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Closer to level 3? A sub-type of a level 5 article? No way; strong oppose. The Blue Rider 14:58, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
3. We added LGBT to level 4 (Cewbot is screwing up presently so it does not show) and I think LGBT is sufficient at level 4 over non-binary gender which is less common. starship.paint (RUN) 12:46, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

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Remove Jute  5

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VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota. This topic on a textile does not appear important enough at this level. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:37, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:09, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 23:58, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
5. Makkool (talk) 16:08, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Domestic short-haired cat

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The article was merged into Moggy  5, which has no interwikis. The content on "domestic short-haired cat" is less than 260 words. starship.paint (RUN) 02:31, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 02:31, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Support domestic pet breeds are overrepresented at this level. Gizza (talk) 00:43, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk)
4. Without a doubt. Interstellarity (talk) 18:39, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
5. This could be removed boldly, as it's a redirect now. Makkool (talk) 14:13, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• Can we WP:BOLDly swap with Moggy? Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:06, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
  • @OhnoitsvileplumeXD: - why should we? We don't list Mongrel  5 (21 interwikis) at V4. starship.paint (RUN) 15:35, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

    @Starship.paint: Domestic short hair cat apparently has 14 interwikis, and Moggy was the article it was merged into. Have we done the same with other articles in the past, or have we removed them? I do agree that this is only a V5 concept, though. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:53, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

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Add Breathing  4

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Just added to V5. We (and many other animals) all need to do this to stay alive. Humans can't go without it for 30 minutes. This should be more common than most of the proposals on this page. starship.paint (RUN) 15:11, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 15:11, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
2. 'Support Often gets mistaken for respiration, which is level 3 I believe. The different article about moving ones chest to intake air etc, is still probably lev 4 vital separate from respiration.  Carlwev  15:39, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom Mathwriter2718 (talk) 03:07, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
4. I agree. Basic function of life. Interstellarity (talk) 19:38, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
5. 'Support --Thi (talk) 07:45, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Nirvana (band)  4 and Sex Pistols  5 (Potential swap with The Velvet Underground  5

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Yes, the last thing we need is more rockers, but as you can see through this link, we don't have anyone from the alternative or punk scene. To me, this is a glaring omission, especially when it comes to alternative rock which has arguably been the main form of rock since it broke through. And no, the Velvet Underground does not count for either subgenre; alternative deserves to have someone whose music was made after the initial punk wave, while your average person is probably more likely to categorize VU as art/experimental rock than proto-punk.

For alternative, I'm just going to go with the most obvious candidate. Although R.E.M. were technically the one who demonstrated the commercial viability of alternative rock with Out of Time (they're also usually held to be one of the first alt rock band), most people consider Smells Like Teen Spirit  5 to be thing that truly pushed alternative into the mainstream. There's also the whole "voice of the generation" personality cult that surrounds Kurt Cobain  5.

For punk, I'm not going to lie; it is kind of weird to nominate a band that's usually held to only have one album. But these guys played a huge rule in both spearheading the British punk scene and in shaping punk fashion. They also possess a notoriety that none of the other punk rockers really have.

Support

1. Support both. Swap with VU if necessary. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:03, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Support addition of Nirvana. Relevant in contemporary culture. Swap with The Velvet Underground is also possible. --Thi (talk) 11:45, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Support swap of The Velvet Underground  5 for Nirvana (band)  4, as a clear improvement. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:15, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Swap VU for Nirvana Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:33, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
5. Support removal λ NegativeMP1 02:45, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
6. Support Nirvana and swap 49p (talk) 19:56, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
7. Support swap for Nirvana. Kevinishere15 (talk) 22:01, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose both additions After thinking about this for a while, I fail to see how either of these are worthy of V4. There's too much rock representation here (and at V5, for that matter) to begin with, and even with the removals recently proposed I don't think either of these acts are worthy of V4 in terms of global impact to society as a whole. Nirvana's relevancy in modern culture can basically be summarized to T-shirts and one song. And while I don't deny that they both are certainly influential, I can't see them being impactful or widespread on a similar level as Queen (band) or Elvis Presley. I think V5 is a good spot for them. λ NegativeMP1 02:45, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose Sex Pistols, we can probably use a better punk band. Ramones and the Clash are much better picks imo. 49p (talk) 19:56, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

1. @SailorGardevoir: V4 is drastically over quota, and this proposal even if fully enacted would bring the count up by one. Is there one more artist/band even outside of this genre that you would want to propose the removal of? λ NegativeMP1 02:25, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

   I've already made it clear that I'm content with swapping Joan Baez, Dolly Parton and/or Buddy Holly out for Run-DMC and Kanye West, but other than Baez no one has shown any interest in removing them. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:16, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

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Add Run-DMC  4 and Kanye West  5 (potential swap with Joan Baez  5 and Dolly Parton  4/Buddy Holly  4)

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We got to have more rappers than just Tupac Shakur. Hip-hop just celebrated its 50th anniversary last year, and it’s one of the biggest genres in the world right now. It is certainly more popular than country or (European) folk, which we decided for each genre to list three of its musicians on here (four if you count Bob Dylan and to a much lesser extent Taylor Swift). I think we need at least two more hip-hop musicians on here.

Run-DMC is probably the easiest group we can promote. They are frequently called “the Beatles of hip-hop”, and for good reason. Besides being the first rappers to have their videos played on MTV and be featured on the cover of Rolling Stone, they are also the first hip-hop act to go gold, platinum, and multi-platinum. Not only that, they are arguably single-handily responsible for transforming hip-hop from old-school to new-school, with not just their music (rejecting the disco-driven party anthems in favor of hard-edge rhymes and drum machine-heavy beats) but even with the way they dress. (Before, rappers used to wear dramatic, flashy outfits when performing. Run-DMC eschewed that with, well, regular street clothes, including most famously Adidas shoes.)

Now, I would prefer if we just add these guys, but I understand if we need to swap someone out in order to include them. Baez is probably the least vital person in country and folk. For one, we have her former boyfriend, Bob Dylan. I know he’s listed under rock, but unlike Swift who has abandoned country completely, Dylan’s music by in large still has some folk elements to it. More importantly however, she is just largely not known as a songwriter. For folk musicians, especially contemporary ones, singing your own compositions is pretty big deal, and while she has written her own material, they are not on par with those of Woody Guthrie and Joni Mitchell.

I will admit that it took me quite a while to come up with another person to promote to Level 4. I ultimately decided to nominate Ye, but if someone thinks that there’s a better person to promote, feel free to speak up. West is usually held to be one of the hip hop musicians of all time. Maybe not as a rapper, but definitely as a producer. Six of his albums are on the latest version of Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Albums of All Time. Him beating 50 Cent on the album charts with his third album is usually held to bring end of gangsta rap-era of hip hop.

Again, I understand if we need to swap someone before we include him. Again, I don’t think country and folk needs that many people, and after Baez, Dolly Parton is probably the least vital. However, I am open to swapping West with Buddy Holly. We got plenty of rockers, and while his death is tragic, I don’t think his music or status as an icon is as revolutionary or as big as Nirvana.

Support

1. As nom. Swap with Joan Baez and Dolly Parton respectively if necessary. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:44, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support Add Run DMC. I was an occaisional college radio station DJ/contributor in these days. They are the group that commercialized rap with their first three albums that went gold, platinum and multiplatinum. Those three albums paved the way for "Licensed to Ill" and then the floodgates for Rap music.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:08, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Support addition of Run-DMC with no other changes. Baez, Parton and Holly each independently warrant level 4. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 21:29, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Support additions and removal of Joan Baez. Hip-hop has been the world's most popular music genre for over a decade, while Baez has become a bit of a cultural totem, I'm afraid. An enduring figure, but her actual music (songs, albums) is rarely celebrated compared to other V4 pop artists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Support both addition (Kanye is weak support, just due to recentism + other comparable acts), removal of Baez as well. Holly and Parton are too vital. 49p (talk) 06:45, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
6. Support Run DMC and removal of Baez. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:09, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
7. After a bit of thinking, I support the addition of Run DMC and removal of Joan Baez, but I maintain my oppose towards Kanye West. λ NegativeMP1 16:04, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
8. Support removal of Joan Baez. --Thi (talk) 08:05, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose addition of Kanye West as too recent. --Thi (talk) 14:05, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
2. I concur the comment below outside of voting that Eminem  5 is likely more worthy of V4 than Kanye West. λ NegativeMP1 20:34, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose, bites off too much. Run-DMC maybe, but Kanye is better known for antics than rap. Debate over who is the most vital rapper is far above this. Disagree offhand with all proposed removals. Hyperbolick (talk) 22:04, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

   So you're content with just having 2Pac on here? Because right now he is the only rapper we have. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:55, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

The best selling hip hop artist is Eminem  5, who also ranks higher than Ye in the Billboard and Vibe's 50 Greatest Rappers of All Time. I think he is ahead of Ye. Run DMC is significant for different reasons though as early pioneers and it's harder to compare them with contemporary rappers. Gizza (talk) 23:56, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

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Add Bilbao  5

Spain looks a bit underrepresented with only five cities compared to Poland and Ukraine getting six each. Bilbao has a metro area of over a million, more than 50% larger than Zaragoza  4 and the largest city in Northern Spain, and particularly the Basque Country (autonomous community)  4. I'd also add Lille  5, but France is already well-represented. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 08:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Bilbao is not a level 4 city, would rather add the historical Salamanca  5. The Blue Rider 14:46, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

   If Bilbao is not V4-worthy, neither is Salamanca. Bilbao has 121 interwikis compared to Salamanca's 100 and over triple Salamanca's pageviews. Salamanca is also much smaller than the other European cities excluding Syracuse, Sicily  4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 15:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

   Not sure why people love to use these metrics so much; Salamanca might not be a big city population wise but it has a strong historical, cultural and theoligical influence, contrary with Bilbao. The Blue Rider 15:35, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Move Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab  4 to the Sunni section

Setting aside on whether we should place the Sufis in their own separate section, why is he not under the Sunni section? Wahhabism is very strictly a Sunni thing.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:03, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Drainage  4 and add Storm drain

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The former article was merged into the latter. IDBLWK (talk) 13:16, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. IDBLWK (talk) 13:31, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 20:58, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. There was no consensus for such merge, I will be reverting it. The Blue Rider 23:17, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Swap: add Gaza Strip  4, remove Gaza City  5

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The territory is more important than its primary settlement.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 17:02, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 18:14, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 06:22, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:30, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
5. I think that Gaza Strip  4 has overtaken in terms of notability and vitality. Aszx5000 (talk) 10:20, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

1. Neutral, leaning support per Carlwev. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:31, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

The city is thousands of years old, the territory only came into in the 1940s. Gaza Strip is of similar importance as West Bank should we include one without the other? Should we have both or neither? And why? Was discused 11 years ago when Gaza was added [1].  Carlwev  09:20, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

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Move Fertile Crescent  4 from History to Geography

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The fertile crescent in the Near East is more a region that's relevant in geography even today, rather than a historical concept that happened in the past. The article even talks about biodiversity and climate before its history. So I'm proposing moving it away from Ancient History to Regions and country subdivisions.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 00:07, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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