This page is an archive and its contents should be preserved in their current form;
any comments regarding this page should be directed to Wikipedia talk:In the news. Thanks.
Afghan President Hamid Karzai denounces a large-scale drug raid in which U.S. forces and Russian drug agents took part, calling it a violation of Afghan sovereignty, even though Afghan police participated. (Los Angeles Times)
Six New Zealanders return home after breaking Israel's blockade of Gaza claiming to have delivered medical aid and a message of international solidarity. (Newstalk ZB)
The election has taken place after being delayed since 2005. Not sure at this point if there will be a second round. Grsz1121:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should wait for the results before determining whether or not to post this; if there is a run-off, then I don't think that the blurb will be notable enough for ITN. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)02:48, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As soon as something is updated I'll put it up. I'm happy to bold Roussef's article if that's easier to update in the short-term. It defies convention a bit but this should go up ASAP.--Mkativerata (talk) 23:08, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posting Not ideal - it's a very short update and another sentence to the lead would be good - but it's good enough not to hold up a clearly newsworthy event. --Mkativerata (talk) 23:33, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Very notable overtake, seeing Woods' status as a golfer and his recent controversy. However, many sources are saying that Westwood is not officially first until tomorrow, so it would be wise to wait. Better sources: [2], and [3]. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)19:53, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose We already have at least four golf stories every year: leadership potentially changes weekly (although in reality much more rarely): title is a relatively recent innovation. Kevin McE (talk) 20:09, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tiger Woods has been at the top since 2005. You cannot say with a straight face that leadership in golf changes frequently. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)21:04, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Three of the opposes here are based on the logic that the rankings change 'weekly'. That's not inaccurate per se but the number one spot hasn't changed since 2005.--Johnsemlak (talk) 21:33, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We don't post changes in tennis ranking or FIFA ranking and so on. We just post the most prominent results, the rest are calculations. --Tone21:42, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Let me clarify my opinion. I oppose because he didn't win some major championship at this time, and the ranking is purely an opinion on paper. Grsz1121:44, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support The first change in number one in five years is clearly notable whether or not people didn't see it coming. Just because we already have four golf items doesn't mean this one has to be excluded. --PlasmaTwa221:55, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wanted to support this, but the news here is that Woods is not number 1 anymore, not that the other guy got it. And this sort of news doesn't quite work: it is like saying Usain Bolt lost the 100m world record, and that does not work for #1. Nergaal (talk) 18:38, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It might be a bit late now, but I support this one. This is the first time the golf no.1 has changed in five years - that's clearly notable. As for the comment above about Usain Bolt, I'd say a new 100m world record would be notable enough for ITN as well. Robofish (talk) 18:17, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support because this switching of golf's number one position ends a record breaking streak of weeks at the top of the rankings by a golfer. Ks0stm(T•C•G)18:47, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article is mostly a list of his works--it doesn't give enough information about his notability for me to support, though he may in fact be very notable. Oppose for now.--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:29, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, one of the country's most respected and successful writers. De ontdekking van de Hemel was voted "Best Dutch Book Ever" in 2007. Since his last book was published only 9 years ago, I'd say this is probably of great interest to many readers. Nightw09:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. We posted the opening, fine, but I don't think we need to post the closing as well. These Expos aren't that big a deal in the general scale of things. Physchim62(talk)17:48, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Slight oppose: I agree the fact that it was a record-breaking expo is very significant to mention, but mention it a second time for this reason? I'm not so sure. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)19:57, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. The closing itself is a non-event, but the record does raise some interest. However 'Chinese people flock to event showing off China to the world' is hardly surprising. Modest Geniustalk00:48, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, I should add, that my support is contingent on the article's expansion. I think that's to be expected in these types of current events. It just happened--there really isn't anything to add to the article yet. I think is reasonable to anticipate that as more information comes out the event's notability will become apparent.--Johnsemlak (talk) 11:10, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Only fifteen injuries and no deaths. The occurrences of such events in a hotbed area such as Turkey should be implicit, and thus more attention should be given to particularly extraordinary events.--WaltCip (talk) 18:46, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. As stated, no deaths were recorded, but this is still Istanbul and it had the potential to cause massive damage. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)02:40, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posted. Rough consensus, decent article and nearly 23 hours since last update.
Belated oppose Turkey isn't exactly the stable European nation, and very miniscule effect (no deaths, limited injuries). I'm sure there was a multi-car accident in the United States with more injuries today. Grsz1101:57, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Remove. Consensus should not be subjective. There either is or is not consensus; there's no middle ground. There is no consensus to post this story.--WaltCip (talk) 05:57, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
4.5 suports + nom versus 3.5 oppose votes does not look like consensus to me. Considering the Bagdad entry will be put up soon, can we get rid of this one? Nergaal (talk) 21:11, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Um, that actually does sound like consensus, at least for ITN purposes. I see 4.5 supports (nom + 3 supports + 1 weak support [0.5]) and 2.5 opposes (1 strong oppose [you can't make your vote "count" more] + 1 oppose + 1 weak support [0.5]). Further, given that you and John have suggested that Turkey is rampant with terrorism, there are ample grounds to ignore your remarks. Turkey, and especially Istanbul, is not very frequently subjected to terrorism. Further, the attack occurred in Taksim Square, which is the equivalent of a bombing in Times Square or Leicester Square. This was a bombing at a major square in the center of a major world city that isn't normally subjected to terrorism. Further, this news item was the top story on news sites around the world on Saturday. No, the Baghdad bombings should not replace this one. They are unrelated. They didn't happen in the same city, country, or continent. Cut the orientalism. -- tariqabjotu22:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, and I'm assuming the admin who posted the item can't see the future. Therefore, I didn't count Grsz11's oppose or Night w's support. -- tariqabjotu00:15, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How many English speakers does Istanbul have? Sorry, I meant to ask: how many orders of magnitude less English speakers are there in Istanbul versus London? Nergaal (talk) 03:50, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yemeni authorities arrest two women in relation to the attack and search for other people of interest. (Al Jazeera)(AP)
President of AfghanistanHamid Karzai reprimands Russia after its forces enter the country without permission and "violate Afghan sovereignty" in a joint mission with United States agents. Karzai orders an investigation. (Al Jazeera)(BBC)
Turkey's national security council adds Israeli activity in the Middle East, "online terror" and global warming to a document listing potential threats, while removing Armenia, Bulgaria, Georgia, Iran and Syria from the same list. The document also calls for a Middle East without nuclear weapons. (Ynetnews)
The prime ministers of China and Japan meet in Vietnam amid a diplomatic disagreement, with Hillary Clinton of the United States wading into the dispute during a speech. (Al Jazeera)
Two men are sentenced to life imprisonment for the killing of a Rwandan journalist who had allegedly uncovered evidence that the Rwandan government was behind the attempted murder of an ex-army general. (IOL)
In an interview with Al-Hayat later quoted by Israeli television, senior Hamas official Mahmoud al-Zahar calls a "rebel" against Hamas policy anyone who fires rockets from Gaza into Israel. (Haaretz)
Oppose we already have waaay too many announcements on football varieties that are not played... with the feet. In this case especially, either of those two sports are really played only in 1-0.5 countries in the world, so calling it "international rules" is misleading (probably as much as calling NBA campions as world champions even after losing to the EuroLeague champions). Nergaal (talk) 04:27, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose not a proper sport, something improvised for one week per year. There is less talk of it in Australia than state league transfers etc. Nobody trains for it properly. Not shown live on TV, negligible media coverage YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:33, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The page could use some work, but a volcanic eruption is certainly a major event. > 30 deaths already and the *actual * eruption hasn't started yet. ...Can we put this one on sleeper? ResMar02:50, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose until the eruption actually takes place; and even then, if low causalities and damages are reported, I would still oppose. Nergaal (talk) 04:30, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support we usually post the first event in a competition that has the potential to grow really well (as was with the case of Youth Olympics); this looks like could catch on since it is more engaging. Nergaal (talk) 04:32, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Because that wasn't a matter of guessing. That was an event sponsored by the IOC, and was sure to take off. Sure, it was a little WP:CRYSTAL, but there was definitely more reason to ignore it than this. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)02:37, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Seems misleading, as all I can find is a willingness to ban geoengineering, but not an actual imposition. Find a source for the claim, please. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)16:28, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. While it is very interesting, the ban states that "no climate-related geo-engineering activities that may affect biodiversity take place, until there is an adequate scientific basis on which to justify such activities". So I think it is limited to a point where it isn't completely forbidden, especially if our planet ever needs that kind of drastic solution. So I'm neutral on this one in terms of notability. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)00:55, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am confused to as what is this actually supposed to mean. Is China safe now from being obliged to take care of its trash it is spitting in the atmosphere? Unless a clear article on this is created, it can't go on the main page. Nergaal (talk) 04:45, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not against posting beauty pageants (are they really less trivial than sports events?) but I'd support doing so only based on evidence of notability sufficient for ITN (viewing figures, global interest, coverage, etc) My first check was the BBC News website and the BBC Entertainment section--I found no mention of it on either place. WP says that Miss Universe is the most publicized global beauty pageant, so I'd say we should post only that. also, I believe Miss World was not posted last year.1--Johnsemlak (talk) 05:36, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In August this year Miss Universe wasn't posted, with similar arguments to above being used in opposition, though there was considerable support as well. Beauty pageants seems to be a bit divisive.--Johnsemlak (talk) 08:22, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The SMH reckons Miss World "annually rakes in a global television audience of about a billion viewers". I'm amazed - I thought it had stopped in the 70s. I'm instinctively opposed (per Courcelles), but remain open to other arguments. TFOWR09:12, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I got the impression it was "a typical year's viewing figures". It surprised me, too. I don't know anyone who watches Miss World, but I maybe know the wrong people ;-) TFOWR09:45, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This looks like lazy journalism copying a promotional claim. Regarding something else, the SMH story (actually an AFP story they copied) quotes a page on the official site [5] in the paragraph after their "about a billion viewers" claim. Elsewhere the quoted page says "viewing audience of over 1 billion". Event organizers often claim very exaggerated world wide viewer figures. They conveniently omit to break it down by country and there are no serious sources for world wide figures so it's hard to directly prove they are full of BS. It seems they sometimes just add the whole television owning population of countries showing the event. See also List of most-watched television broadcasts#World. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:28, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, as Miss Universe was not posted, I see no reason why to post Miss World, as the two pageants are more or less similar. --Tone11:40, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Supportiff this, rather than Miss Universe, is considered the top "event": I suspect that opinion on that depends on the broadcasting rights held by the source enquired. If we can compare it with a sport, this is (for the purposes of this support) the top event of genuinely world-wide competition. That judgement is subjective does not prevent our publishing of sports like gymnastics. Those of us in the politically correct west might think that this is a throwback to the 1970s, but it is massive in many parts of the world, and, as I often argue, it is good that ITN reaches beyond the scope of US/UK newspaper headlines. Kevin McE (talk) 13:52, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Becoming the 60th winner of the biggest beauty pageant in the world is a notable event, just like if someone had won the gold medal at 100 meters at the Olympics etc etc.--BabbaQ (talk) 15:46, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Not notable winner, and this pageant doesn't seem to be in the international interest, per my quick news search (BBC, The Times, WaPo, Yahoo). EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)16:13, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Its veiwed by about a billion people every year its estimated so it is of public interest. But you might be right that overall news media nowadays dont have even the biggest beauty pageant in the worlds winner as a huge story. But yes their is public interest anyway.--BabbaQ (talk) 16:16, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
@KevinMcE--the Miss Universe article claims that Miss Universe, not Miss World, is the premier competition, but if you read the source they reference it's mainly based in TV ratings in the US, I think. @BabbaQ--the 'one billion viewers' claim is likely exaggerated, though it may very well have a large global audience--Johnsemlak (talk) 16:46, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's not a good idea IMO. Those are two different pageants. Besides, it's only the women's events that get big publicity. --Tone18:54, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, but won't the combination of the two 60th editions of different pageants for girls and for boys look nice and interesting in the newsbox? ;) And, afterall, the second event was even won by old Arnie once long ago, while there are no comparable stars among the winners of the first event ;) GreyHoodTalk19:21, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support whatever happened to NPOV. why are women flaunting their beauty any less important than college dropout guys wrestling, running behind a stupid ball, trying to hit a ball into a hole or trying to swim across a channel faster than the next guy. do any of those activities solve world hunger or any other serious issue which a beauty pageant doesn't ??? Again it is clear that this is a globally widely watched event with major interest worldwide so it is a worthy ITN item. a billion viewers is reported by multiple RS [9][10]. I know in India ( which has produced 5 miss worlds) these are insanely popular. we should not bring our own value judgements into this.--Wikireader41 (talk) 19:08, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
as long as their are a billion people watching such "low events" I think we are obligated to drop so low to discuss this ;). though my girlfried would rather watch well muscled guys with average IQ of 48 kick a ball into a rectangular target.--Wikireader41 (talk) 20:20, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, I'm not. Shakira's butt is far more notable in terms of its coverage in secondary sources and its influence on modern popular culture than the 2010 Miss World meat market "competition". Physchim62(talk)21:05, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Btw, what is so notable about Shakira's butt? (I am not a pop fun and just don't know anything about this) And why there is no article called Shakira's butt if it has so much influence on the world culture? ;) GreyHoodTalk21:13, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If a billion people watched Shakira's or anybody else's butt simultaneously I would strongly support putting it on ITN ( along with a picture of the butt)--Wikireader41 (talk) 20:50, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do you mean my suggestion? It is really nice if you do, and the newsline may be indeed very nice if the suggestion gets further support. GreyHoodTalk20:52, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And this is not even a vote, its a forum to express opinions on which articles to put on ITN. That it is in a oppose, support style can be misleading.--BabbaQ (talk) 22:33, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I havent put this "story" up for ITN that was someone else. And you need to get your facts straight before accusing people of something they havent done. peace.--BabbaQ (talk) 10:27, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on a who really cares basis. I know someone who won Miss Teen Kansas and went on to compete at Miss Teen USA, and that wasn't even mentioned in the local newspaper. If a girl winning Miss Teen Kansas doesn't make the local paper, why should the winner of this competition be posted here? (At least, that's the thought process in my head attm). But, I have to agree with Nergaal here, I would totally support that version of Miss Universe. =) Ks0stm(T•C•G)06:11, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose. Agree with Courcelles. This kind of thing is not news; it's like Entertainment Tonight. Nobody cares. Nightw09:35, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Israeli soldiers fire tear gas and sound grenades to shut down rallies across the West Bank held to protest an annexation of land by Israel. The events are attended by Norwegian politicians Torunn Kanutte Husvik and Stine Renate Håheim. (Ma'an News Agency)
At least nine Mexican police officers in the state of Jalisco are shot dead during an ambush with drug cartels, continuing a recent wave of violence connected to the Mexican Drug War. (BBC News)
Saboteurs attack an oil pipeline in Nigeria's Niger Delta, shutting in 4,000 barrels a day of crude oil production. (Reuters)(AFP)
Al-Shabaab militants take control of a town on the border between Somalia, Ethiopia and Kenya from pro-government forces, following fighting that displaced 60,000 people. (AHN)
Security alert in the United Kingdom and United States:
Law enforcement authorities in the UK and the US are on high alert after suspicious packages are found on flights arriving from Yemen. A similar package is discovered in Dubai. (BBC News)(CNN)
Wikimedia, the owner of online encyclopedia Wikipedia, plans to open its first non-US office in India as it seeks to take advantage of the country's open Internet culture, the group tells AFP. (Deccan Chronicle)
TeliaSonera, through its Nepal subsidiary Ncell, announces that a series of eight 3G wireless transmitters have been installed along the trail to base camps on Mount Everest, with coverage reaching the summit. (BBC News)
A British man is sentenced to 18 weeks in prison for posting malicious and abusive messages on Facebook memorial sites, including the page for deceased reality TV star Jade Goody. (BBC News)
An American judge has ruled that a six-year-old may be sued for negligence after crashing into an elderly woman while riding a bicycle at age four.(BBC)
Archeologists in South Africa's Blombos Cave discover evidence of early humans using Pressure flaking to make Stone tools in 73,000 BCE more than 55,000 years earlier than previously believed.
I do it myself but the article is behind a Paywall and I Am attending a Conference this weekend. Blombos Cave would probably the most important as its the where the discovery was made. Stone tools would be secondary but i think when i looked at it ealier it did not mention dates of origins for the first tools. Pressure flaking is more about the technique I dont think it had dates either. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 22:23, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I support the item as it has been presented here but can we have a non-paywall source that details the significance other than the Fox News one?--Johnsemlak (talk) 03:12, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support (once article updated). Johnsemlak's source is OK for me (no paywall), C628's is OK as well. Blombos Cave seems like the likely candidate for bolding; it has been updated but not (as far as I can see) with stone tools/pressure flaking info. Disclaimer: I Am Not An Anthropologist/Archaeologist - smarter folk than what I am may be better equipped to comment on article updates.TFOWR08:58, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support when the update is there. The discovery was published in a respected journal so it meets my criteria. --Tone11:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, significant event in our understanding of the Stone Age and our predecessors. I also added stuff to Blombos Cave, but not to anything else. I will make the same disclaimer as TFOWR--I've very little knowledge about this, so if I've made a mistake in my writing, please do correct it. C628 (talk) 17:17, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On this one, at this time, I think I'll have to weakly oppose. While it is a significant eruption, at this point, there do not appear to be any deaths or massive amounts of damage from the eruptions (based on the source provided), so it doesn't really qualify as a "major natural disaster" in my opinion. Ks0stm(T•C•G)15:11, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can see, Klyuchevskaya Sopka hasn't erupted yet, but an aviation advisory has been issued. I'd suggest we hold off on Klyuchevskaya Sopka until it erupts again (it erupted earlier this year). Both articles need to be updated. TFOWR09:02, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to suggest 2010 cargo plane bomb plot for nomination. It is a major news item (top story on BBC news) and I recently finished creating the article. The headline could talk about the attempted bombing of the cargo planes, or the arrest of the Yemeni medical student, whichever you guys think would be more relevant to our readers. Let me know what you think. – Novem Lingvae (talk) 04:44, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose we have more than enough terrorism on ITN as it is, just with posting the successful attacks, without posting failed events that might not even have been attacks in the first place. In addition, it's far from clear what sort of "added value" Wikipedia can provide to this story: reposting general speculation about motives etc, is still just speculation. Physchim62(talk)17:52, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. The article is really coming along. We're up to 19 sources now and a number of different editors have collaborated on the article's development. I would suggest that we make a decision soon, while the contents of the article is still considered a current event. – Novem Lingvae (talk) 03:42, 1 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
China's top legislature adopts a decision to appoint Vice President Xi Jinping as vice chairman of the Central Military Commission (CMC) of the People's Republic of China. (Xinhua)
Oppose as not a sufficiently significant death for ITN. The current state of his article is a good indication that his life wasn't so grounbreakingly significant as to warrant the posting of his death at old age.--Mkativerata (talk) 01:05, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support clearly a notable achievement for the Chinese - I presume its the first #1 supercomputer outside the US for a long while - maybe since the Manchester Mark 1. I've added a reference for the speed too. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 23:27, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support haha, China is taking over the world. Last time non-US held the record were the Japanese in 2002; USSR in 1984, and UK in the 50's. Nergaal (talk) 23:42, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The table's not been changed, but theres a line above it that says "As of October 28, 2010, the Chinese "Tianhe-IA" boasts the worlds fastest speed at 2.507 petaflops" and the timeline's been updated. Not sure if that's enough, but I'd oppose messing with the table, since it reflects what the complete list is currently as published; it'll get changed when the next one comes out in November. C628 (talk) 01:49, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That does not matter. Until the TOP500 list is out, we do not know whether Tianhe is the fastest, and therefore do not list it as a fact in ITN. Just like we do not report "Candidate XY will win the election", even if it was based on a 90% poll. —bender235 (talk) 12:54, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
but this isnt an election. the supercomputer power cant just go down in november because CPU's didnt get enough votes in the TOP500... lol. right now its the fastest super computer and i believe thats a confirmed fact. -- Ashish-g5514:42, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, but there is a (very slight) chance that some other supercomputer reports a higher Rmax until the November TOP500 list is out. There are at least two supercomputers that are scheduled to reach 10+ petaFLOPS in 2011 (SGI's Pleiades, and IBM Sequoia). —bender235 (talk) 15:14, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I posted this on WP:ERRORS too; I wasn't sure where it fit better. "The TOP500 article that's linked lists Tianhe-I as 7th place. While it will be the fastest supercomputer next time they update their list, it isn't currently. Maybe the blurb isn't incorrect, then, but linking the TOP500 article, which disagrees with the blurb, is certainly bad form." Makeemlighter (talk) 05:02, 30 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support pending article improvements and update. It looks like a developing tropical disturbance may be headed for Haiti. ~AH1(TCU)01:03, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Several people are injured in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir during protests marking the anniversary of the arrival of Indian forces in the region in 1947. (AFP)(Hindustan Times)
Clashes between pro-government forces and al-Shabaab militants in southern Somalia kill 17 people. (Press TV)
A United States drone attack kills three in Pakistan. (AFP)
At least three people are killed in an explosion in Baghdad, Iraq. (CNN)
Israeli Police send seven hundred officers to the Arab town of Umm al-Fahm ahead of a march by right wing activists on the twentieth anniversary of the murder of RabbiMeir Kahane and use tear gas to stop violent clashes between the activists and Arabs. (CNN)
Three labour activists are sentenced to up to nine years in prison in Vietnam for distributing anti-government leaflets and going on strike. (Straits Times)
Weak oppose its has significant repercussions on two levels. One is the Legal angle where this a rather odd intepretation of DMCA for the judge to make and that will have legal repurcussions down the road for many websites. Secondly if you notice 4Chan and the hacker culture are going nuts with several DDOS attacks in the last 24 hours on a dozen music industry sites. But my main reason to oppose its this case its not in its climax and still has conplexities to sort out that would probably be better for ITN than lime wire shutting down. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 18:02, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. MickMacNee's rationale is not valid here. Limewire was the most-used P2P program on the internet, boasting over 50 million members who downloaded copyrighted music. The RIAA will be seeking lots of compensation in a court battle scheduled for January 2011. It's getting buzz from the BBC, Reuters, AP, and NYT (though Lime Wire LLC is based in New York, so NYT is a given, but nonetheless). For those reasons, I support. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)19:40, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support He was not only the president-consort of Argentina, he had a very active role as a senator and on the Peronist Party, and almost more influence than the president. Fixman (talk!)14:21, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is impossible to add more news for now. Later, during the day there will be condolencies, ceremonies, etc. So it would be updated during the day. I don't know which tag are you referring to, nor what does it means. The news is important nevertheless, be it a line or two. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 16:42, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support the original mention, not the second one. "In office" may be misleading, and there have been already cases of foreign newspapers that reported Kirchner incorrectly as the current President of Argentina (this whole thing of a president taking orders from her husband nearly as if he was still president, has definitely very few antecedents, if any, out of monarchic governments of some centuries ago). He's "in office" as deputee and UNASUR secretary, but why confuse an already confusing thing. MBelgrano (talk) 16:54, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've already selected the most important woutes as of now, I copied them, translated them, and sourced them. This is an ongoing event, so it would be impossible to give a definitive format by now. Most current events with multiple reactions do work like this in Wikipedia. This is not a reason for not posting. Moreover, posting will lead a lot of editors to improve the job. --IANVS (talk) 19:35, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Help: I request help to edit the reactions section according to standards, as noted above by an admin. I'm off after 7hs work. Bye, --IANVS (talk) 20:38, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why not just post it, FFS? Overwhelming support, article in acceptable shape; or are we going to spend our time naval-gazing like the timewasters on the LHS of the Main Page? Physchim62(talk)21:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support immediate posting. Further adjustments can be made later and a new article can be opened if the section grows large enough. The article as it stands is more than acceptable, in my opinion. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 21:53, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support; world's longest-serving very long-serving monarch, and, since he was emir of the kingdom for 24 years before it joined the UAE, that does indeed make him a very long serving head of a (former) independent state as well. --Golbez (talk) 13:47, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Administrator note as of right now, the article still says "As of July 2010, Sheikh Saqr is reported to be dying.", so we're obviously going to need an update before this can be posted. Courcelles14:43, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The King is Dead! Long Live the King! I should correct one inaccuracy made here: he was not the world's longest-reigning monarch (Rama IX, who ascended 2 years before, is most commonly cited as holding that honour, although that is technically incorrect also). We should also mention his official successor, Saud bin Saqr al Qasimi, as recognised by the federal government. Nightw15:42, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well if you're talking about the electric power needed to function then the five pillars should be: Oil, Coal, Natural Gas, Hydrodynamic and Nuclear :) Cwill151 (talk) 18:52, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
He was also one of the founders of the UAE, and pretty much shaped the country into what it is today. He turned his people from poor fishermen into wealthy businessmen. He's a hero in the Arab world. Not to mention that he has served one of the longest terms in a constitutional office in modern history. His death is also getting international media coverage, and many foreign leaders have sent their condolences. Nightw18:31, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In which case why isn't he in the list? I accept that the list is incomplete, but there are a decent number of Middle Eastern Politicians on the list. Additionally he's not the leader of the two most important Emirates - Dubai or Abu Dhabi. Besides its not exactly hard to make your country rich when its tiny and has huge amounts of oil. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, per Golbez's note. I think the ITN is way too strict on its inclusion standards. When you have stricter standards than the New York Times, I think it's being taken too seriously. It wouldn't hurt to have stories more current on the front page. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)19:50, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Night w and because 1948 until 2010 is surely long enough? Events are also being cancelled. 40 days of mourning, the disruption of normal radio programming and a possible "fight over succession" as well. --candle•wicke23:14, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose. This guy was a leader of a non-country that even now has a population less than that of Laval, Quebec (a Montreal suburb). Compare him to Kenny Guinn, a recent governor of Nevada, an Anglosphere state with 10 times the population of the emirate who was in power only a few years ago and died in July. If I were to propose Guinn's death for ITN, I'd be shouted down like an ACLU member at a Bible Belt city council meeting. Not that I would, because only the extraordinarily notable should have their deaths on ITN. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:45, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support. I don't think it's up to editors to subjectively determine whether an individual is notable or not. In Wikipedia, we generally use external reliable sources to determine notability. Sheikh Saqr's death has been reported by, among others, The Daily Telegraph, The Guardian, Reuters, CNN, BBC News, The Wall Street Journal and The Financial Times. Not only was he the second longest-reigning monarch in the world at the time of his death, but it also seems from this list that he is one of the longest-reigning Muslim monarchs in history (although I have yet to find a reliable source stating this). With regards to the above comments about Ras al-Khaimah's tiny population, it should be noted that it is—according to The Daily Telegraph—a "Gulf emirate whose stability is vital to Western interests" and "a strategic western ally that sits on the Straits of Hormuz". Sheikh Saqr's death has precipitated a succession crisis since his newly enthroned son is accused by his brother of having turned the emirate into a major transit point for goods smuggled into Iran. This means that Saqr's death could have serious geopolitical implications. --BomBom (talk) 00:34, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Published in peer reviewed magazine. Got to be more important than discovery of dinosaurs, that we seem to put forward almost automatically. Article very new (I've added some basic intro hurredly to have something for those reading the proposal, but refs and prose should be included and improved before the blurb goes up). Kevin McE (talk) 08:42, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think they are far enough inland to be safe from the cyclone. As far as I have read, the monkeys' opinion of the new flag remains unsolicited. Kevin McE (talk) 09:12, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Only superficially is it not of Intenrational significance. France is Major World power, it internal politics effect the world way more than most countries. This has been the subject of near continuous riots over this for a week and will likely strongly effect the next election cycle thus the world politics. The protest over this bill have shut down the economy in france which effect the global economy. The opposition for to this bill makes the tea parties reaction to the health care bill look extremely tame and insignificant. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 18:10, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
France is a Major World Power? Sorry, I have to log off now, I'm about to have a five hour laughing fit. MickMacNee (talk)
Financially it is World power being number 5 in World wide GPD, and militarily as well. Though their military is not as dickish Bold as the United States and the Brits. It is a world power Stereotypes aside The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 20:33, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. The linked article says very little about the passage of the bill, and the protest section appears to not have been updated significantly in a week. Nergaal (talk) 19:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's important that the blurb mention that the minimum retirement age is going from 60 to 62. They'll now have to wait until age 67 (up from 65) to retire with a full government pension. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:48, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The death toll from Cyclone Giri making landfall in Burma rises to 27 with 15 people missing; aid agencies dispute the military government's figures. (Al Jazeera)
An active (and feared) volcano erupts in Java, Indonesia, killing at least 18 people. Not as many casualties as the earthquake, but still significant. We may get two Indonesia stories unless we post a combination blurb. ~AH1(TCU)21:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment putting them together will automatically suggest they are linked. As an encyclopedia we really should not do that unless they are actually linked (i dont see evidence in article atleast) even if the media is. -- Ashish-g5503:06, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Aziz was the public face and defacto deputy leader of Saddam's evil regime. He notably escaped the death sentence in two earlier trials, but not now apparently. MickMacNee (talk) 17:54, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support per the above, but no one else still alive of the deck of 55 cards. Passing of sentence, not enactment or exhaustion of appeal process, is our usual trigger for posting outcome of trials. Kevin McE (talk) 18:49, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm. Who knew that ITN editors were such a bunch of bloodthirsty bastards? The nomination was the sentencing of course, which is normally enough. MickMacNee (talk) 16:34, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What kind of nonsense is that? 'If he doesn't get killed, then he must not have been sentenced to death?' What a load of utter bollocks. MickMacNee (talk)
Oppose - While this octopus had a short lived bit of fame, interest in his exploits died around the end of the World Cup. Additionally at two years and nine months of age, he was well past the expected lifespan for his species. --Allen3talk11:02, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: nore notable than most octopodes, I agree, but a million miles short of ITNworthy. Daft publicity stunt during silly season, if such a thing had been publicised during pre-Wikipedia tournaments I doubt that an article would ever have been made. Kevin McE (talk) 11:05, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But his death is getting worldwide coverage: check out these Spanish newspapers [17][18]... Oh, well, let's get serious. Oppose, and I'm off out for octopus tapas (with venison, if possible)! Physchim62(talk)12:16, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Venison isn't common on Spanish menus, and they didn't have in the tapas bar that's three (vertical) metres from where I edit WP. However, their pulpo a la gallega was excellent as always (didn't dare ask for it a la alemana)! Physchim62(talk)12:59, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Cited article says "Sony announced that Chinese-made Walkman cassette players will still be exported to North American, European, and Asian markets", so headline claim seems overstated. Kevin McE (talk) 09:58, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Erm. Excuse me...I am trying hard not to rant... The largest living animal in Britain has just been killed; shot. It's all over the front page of all the major British newspapers. The article is being improved as we speak. This is not local interest, nor is it of 'low significance'. Please reconsider. Chzz ► 02:39, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Sad as it is, it's a single wild animal, and it appears to have been shot legally. There's no major significance here, and UK media coverage does not establish sufficient importance for ITN. This is one of those trivia-type stories that generates a lot of coverage without actually meaning anything. Definitely take it to WP:DYK though. Modest Geniustalk02:45, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It has already generated massive media coverage, since the story broke a few hours ago. It is not trivia. There are complex questions regarding hunting licence, recent legislation, and so forth. It has significant international coverage already. It's significant internationally for hunting, species preservation, conservation, gun laws, animal sanctuary, and so forth. I do not understand how you can consider the death of the largest animal in Britain to be of "no major significance". I wish I could show you a photograph of a British news-stand right now. In a few hours, most Britains will be looking at a picture of the animal, on the front-page of their newspaper, over breakfast. It is in BBC headline news on terrestrial televison. Chzz ► 03:27, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think you're understanding the objections. Balloon boy was all over the US news, but it would never be featured here, for its far too trivial and insignificant, no matter how much the media wants to fuss over it. Grsz1104:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do you mean this October 15 ITN ("A worldwide media circus...") and [this October 17 ITN ("The sheriff in Fort Collins, ...") I can't seem to find the discussion of those entries. A little help? I do understand the need to select by some sort of significance, but I do not see a clearly delineated, publicly discussed and reached-by-consensus sieve process to be applied uniformly (#papers, #people affected, #countries - what are the criteria?). Where is that? The phrase "In the News" seems to imply that broad coverage should help. To my talk page ... away! --Lexein (talk) 06:49, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not exactly. The "requirement" is for a blurb, and, frankly, I'd cheerfully waive that if there was a blurb here. So long as there's support, an update, and a blurb I'll post a story. WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY, etc. TFOWR16:20, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And now that I've actually read the background... Stephen's quite correct: those listings are from P:CE, which are transcluded here at WP:ITN/C. The ITN candidates are below the P:CE listings. TFOWR16:24, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for helping. IMO the source of transclusions should be visible. Example: "15 October 2009 (2009-10-15) (Thursday)(transcluded from P:CE)edithistorywatch". As an aside, correct-but-unhelpful should not be how things are done. --Lexein (talk) 18:11, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - there's been no official declaration of legality, only the word "appears", and a statement by an non-independent bystander. I thought a legal kill had to be tagged or reported; there's been no evidence of the hunter claiming the kill. So even if it's legal, it's by no means settled. --Lexein (talk) 06:49, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
An individual specimen of a wild animal, apparently legally killed, about which only one article prior to its death is cited on an article that did not exist until after it died; a local paper story picked up more than a week later by national media. Closer to AfD than ITN. Kevin McE (talk) 10:09, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Already dropped off the front pages of UK newspaper websites, no particular interest elsewhere that I can see. Newspapers rerun news agency stories, and news agencies prepare stories for them; that's all that's happened here. Physchim62(talk)13:08, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Withdrawn as a candidate by nominator Clearly I misunderstand what is meant by 'In The News', and my views on educational, informative and above-all encyclopaedic content are at odds with opinions above. I will merely note the fact that, since submission, this has been the #1 or #2 'most read' story on the BBC News website, I will refrain from any further comment, in accordance with WP:STICK and WP:FUCK. Thank you all for consideration and comments; I apologise for the time wasted for those who feel it inappropriate. Chzz ► 15:40, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it was a good read on page 3 of my daily newpaper today. Still, it's not often you see a good old fashioned STICKFUCK on Wikipedia, so kudos for that. MickMacNee (talk) 16:42, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The British oil firm sells its interests in four Gulf of Mexico oil wells to Japanese firm Marubeni, in a wider cash-raising effort that aims to raise 30 billion dollars for compensations related to the oil spill. (BBC News)
A Dutch aid worker, along with an Afghan driver, are kidnapped on a highway while traveling to Kunduz Province, Afghanistan. (BBC News)
U.S. SenatorJohn Kerry of Massachusetts claims the government of Sudan – which has been subject to U.S. sanctions since 1997 – has assured him it will hold a referendum on independence for the south. (BBC)(Xinhua)
The EU activates its Rapid Border Intervention Teams for the first time since its creation in 2007 to stem illegal immigration at the Greek border. (BBC News)
Voters in Piran, Slovenia elect Ghanaian-born Peter Bossman as its mayor, the first time a person of African descent has been elected mayor in any Slovenian cities and towns. (BBC News)
UEFA President Michel Platini proposes a goal-line referee's assistant rather than goal-line technology which he says would lead to "Playstation Football", despite controversial decisions in 2010 World Cup matches. (BBC Sports)
The European football rulemaking body has called for proof to substantiate corruption allegations leveled against the Euro 2012 bidding process. (BBC Sports)
I have to say I hadn't heard of him. I'm going to oppose for now on the basis that the story is buried rather un-prominently in the BBC Entertainment section.--Johnsemlak (talk) 16:33, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I remember a couple of tracks, and I'm sorry to hear the news of the death of a relatively young man, but he is a long way down the hierarchy of modern singers. Kevin McE (talk) 17:33, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how the strength comparison should affect anything. If anything, a stronger strom killing less people? I think it's a bit early, would support only when a more stable/final toll is announced. That death toll is going to be very changeable. StrPby (talk) 15:00, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
50 deaths is already pretty notable. Also 1000 homes destroyed, 5000 left homeless, and hundreds missing. Article is in decent shape. Support.--Johnsemlak (talk) 15:19, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose unless the death toll goes close to 200. We post too many tropical cyclones. If 7 motorsport updates per year are too many, then having every tropical cyclone with 50 deaths is waaay too much. Nergaal (talk) 04:39, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support. This is the strongest cyclone on record to hit Myanmar, and 70% of a major town of over 20,000 people was confirmed destroyed. At least 84 people were killed and the death toll is rising. Early reports stated that 100 fishermen were missing, and that was just in Bangladeshi waters. ~AH1(TCU)21:50, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Not a major spectator sport, except during the Olympics. I recognize a lot of people like and/or participate in gymnastics, but we have to limit sports results to those that have the most interest. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:28, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support if it is the highest level of gymnastics. Not really interested in gymnastics but can't think of any reason to leave it out completely, especially if it is followed in many countries. "Mitchell, Bouhail make gymnastics history" also sounds promising. --candle•wicke03:51, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Rythmic Gymnastic championships finished on 26 September: not sure where that came from. Same editor got confused between the two different styles of Gymnastics last year, and ended up supporting this one then. Kevin McE (talk) 08:40, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, these different gymnastics types seem to be my bane. When I checked Russian media sites I saw headlines for Russia winning gold in Rhythmic Gymnastics and I assumed it had been recent. It is a big deal here--get's a bit more press that Artistic Gymnastics (or 'Sport Gymnastics' as the Russians call it.)--Johnsemlak (talk) 10:47, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I broadly support this event as per Kevin McE and YellowMonkey but recent precedent at ITN seems to not favor this kind of item. I'd point to the 2010 FIBA World Championship for Women and the 2010 FIVB Men's World Championship as similar examples--top competitions of sports with broad world-wide participation but limited media interest. Sporting events with less broad participation but strong media interest get more support here (I'm not necessarily criticizing that, though I would favor posting all the examples above). The current state of the article is also a prohibition, though fixable. In this case, it might be notable that the most prestigious gymnastics competition is really the Olympics.--Johnsemlak (talk) 14:51, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Israeli commandos fired 308 live bullets at the MV Mavi Marmara to repel passengers who attacked them with lethal weapons",says Israel's top general as he testifies before a state-appointed inquest into May's Gaza flotilla raid. (The Irish Times)
Nobel-winning economist Christopher Pissarides states that Britain's Finance Minister George Osborne is exaggerating the possibility of a crisis and unnecessarily risking the country's economic recovery with his deep spending cuts. (Reuters via Arab News)
Britain's privacy watchdog is to investigate Google once again, charging it with gathering personal information from private wi-fi networks. Google admits collecting details such as passwords and e-mails. (BBC)
Chinese Vice Premier Wang Qishan welcomes U.S. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner to the port of Qingdao as the United States objects to what it labels the "artificial" value of China's own currency, the yuan. (BBC)
2010 strikes in France: Further, larger strikes are planned against government attempts to increase the age of retirement for the country's workers. (The Observer)
Mayors from near Naples reject a government proposal to indefinitely freeze the opening of a new regional waste dump, requesting that the plan be permanently abandoned. People peacefully demonstrate against the plan in Terzigno. (BBC)(The Guardian)(Reuters via Arab News)
Darfur's rebel Justice and Equality Movement says it is ready to start discussions with international mediators in Qatar, but was not yet prepared to re-join full peace negotiations, saying Sudan's government had broken a ceasefire (Reuters Africa)
A campaign led by Peter Tatchell is to legally challenge Britain's ban on same-sex marriage and heterosexual civil partnerships; eight couples are to file applications for the illegal ceremonies. (The Observer)
Three U.S. citizens are to stand trial on charges of spying in Iran after illegally entering the country. (Tehran Times)
Israel's military police investigates an air raid that killed at least 21 members of a single family and injured 19 others during the 2008-2009 Gaza War. (Haaretz)(AFP via Google)
The Supreme Court of Iraq orders the country's parliament back to work, ruling that the self-declared absence of politicians is unconstitutional. (BBC)(Xinhua)
Former UK Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher is reported to be a "lot brighter" following her hospitalisation with the influenza that disrupted her 85th birthday reception. (Press Association)
And also that "only one person dead" has been the subject of a number of episodes of the Swedish crime show Efterlyst and numerous news stories. Also the case has becomed very notable because that the shooter only shoots people with dark skinn like John Ausonius in the early 1990s.--BabbaQ (talk) 20:14, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I might support the capture of the individual depending the merits of the case at the time of capture but right now no. Merely reporting possible multi-day shooting spree in progress does not merit ITN recognition yet. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 20:35, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK but police has already established that it is the same man who shot the deadly shot against the dead Swedish girl and atleast five other of the shootings so.--BabbaQ (talk) 20:36, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Malmo Shootings gets abot 70 hits on Google News. I've gotta conclude that's pretty low interest in this, at least outside Scandinavia. I also agree that one death in a crime is simply not ITN material normally.--Johnsemlak (talk) 20:49, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder if we would have this "Local story" discussion and "only one death" discussion had this been an American case or British.. I doubt it. But anyway.--BabbaQ (talk) 20:55, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BabbaQ, I'm quite certain that such a case would receive substantial opposition at ITN if the victim were American or British. Certainly, shootings are commonplace in the US. While less so in the UK, there's still over 600 homocides per year. We can't post them all at ITN. Yes, this incident may have unique circumstances but it doesn't have enough interest to merit ITN inclusion IMO.--Johnsemlak (talk) 21:03, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the Unabomber took exactly three lives, and that was one of the biggest news stories throughout the 80s and 90s. Whether you oppose or support this entry, I would appreciate if commenters refrained from simplistic arguments presupposing that the notability of a crime story is a simple equation based only on the number of casualties. The world isn't that simple; there are more factors involved than that. Lampman (talk) 21:39, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, local story, one (unfortunate) death, not really any lasting impact. More pedantically, can you not use bullets to support/oppose? f o x21:13, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That was me: sorry if it was inappropriate but although it had been well observed in the previous format, it seemed redundant, and was largely ignored since the change in layout with a ToC and each proposal having its own level 4 (although it would be more logical for it to be level 3) heading. Bullet-points were still not suggested, but note how below it is the default assumption of editors, as per the example of comparable !polling of opinions like AfD pages. And the formatting of the "Sample candidate discussion" section above seems to have been abandoned in practice, so it seemed churlish for a rubric to insist on it. Kevin McE (talk) 22:18, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
50 people are injured in Bangladesh protests attacked army camps, set a jeep on fire and damaged two other vehicles during the clashes in Roopganj, a sub-district of Narayanganj near Dhaka. (Tha Indian)
There are clashes on the streets of Conakry after the second round of voting in the Guinean presidential election, due on 24 October, is deferred for the third time. (BBC)
2010 strikes in France: French unions challenge a back-to-work order in court, one day after the senate voted in favour of increasing their retirement age. (Al Jazeera)
Residents of Naples are repelled by the police force while expressing their ire over a government plan to open a huge garbage dump on the edge of town. (Al Jazeera)
Disasters and accidents
At least one person is killed and thousands more are affected after Cyclone Giri makes landfall in western Burma. (Al Jazeera)
The death toll from Typhoon Megi in Taiwan has reached as least eleven with at least 23 people from two Chinese tour groups missing. It has now made landfall in China's Fujian province. (CNN)(Reuters)
Bishops from across the Middle East urge Israel to end its occupation of Palestinian territories at the end of a two-week-long meeting at the Vatican. (The New York Times)
The opposition Social Democrats are awarded control of the Czech senate by the people in mid-term elections, giving them the chance to oppose right-wing government attempts to cut the wages of workers, stop them sending more troops to Afghanistan and make government reforms "socially more tolerable". (BBC)(AFP via France24)[permanent dead link]
The Chinese government announces it will review a new language policy promoting mandarin as the sole language of instruction in universities following protests by Tibetan students across the country. (The Hindu)
Tentative support – not sure if we should really have two deaths on T:ITN, given the nomination of David Thompson's death below. Arguably a sitting head of government's more notable than an athlete, but given he's the defending Pan-American champion, definitely would merit inclusion. Strange Passerby (talk • c • status) 02:27, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BBC: "The opposition Social Democrats have won control of the Czech senate in mid-term elections, allowing them to slow government plans to cut spending."
Oppose. I'm familiar with the Czech Republic, and I can tell you no one cares about the Senate there. The House can override the Senate with an absolute majority (that is, a majority of all delegates rather than a majority of delegates voting). This is not like in the U.S., where the Senate is equal in power (and in some ways, more powerful) than the House. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:18, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Yeah, then watch the US mid-term elections get dozens of supporters for ITN *rolls eyes*. When people say that Wikipedia is an American wiki, they aren't damn kidding. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)21:37, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Im nominating this story because it has becomed a main story in Norwegian media, it has also reached international headlines on different websites. Also an historic factor involved.--BabbaQ (talk) 20:12, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, no one have claimed that Mariann will ever discover the cure for cancer. But that doesnt change the fact that she can do great things in other areas in life. Like this one above.--BabbaQ (talk) 23:10, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Bahraini parliamentary election, 2010 takes place today. I'm nominating this as is right by WP:ITN/R, and because it will probably get nominated anyway. But I think it should be noted that this is for the lower house, and that the upper house (and the Cabinet) are directly appointed by the King, so whether elections are significant here, I'll leave up for consideration. Nightw14:16, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note that we can (IMO should) post this as death + change in head of government. The change in HoG itself would have been worthy of nomination, even without the death. Physchim62(talk)00:56, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Article as a whole needs more expansion before it can go up, IMO...the summary of Thompson's whole life is relatively short. SpencerT♦C01:10, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support upon article expansion. These events like elections or HoG changes have become sensitive lately. Barbados has a population of 250,000, which I have to say makes it a fairly non-notable state. Still, general WP ITN policy is to report the death of a sitting head of state and the appointment of another. I suggest we keep the blurb as short as possible.--Johnsemlak (talk) 08:12, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support: this shift is a formal recognition (albeit small in %) of change of balance of world economies. However, the article does not cite any outcomes of the summit. Crnorizec (talk) 23:04, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We should probably also mention the joint communique in which the members committed not to engage in a currency-devaluation war, even if it did not include Tim Geithner's proposal to limit trade surpluses and deficits. I think that's what most people were looking forward to out of the G-20 meeting. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:59, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Question: If the G20 finance ministers have agreed to change the IMF rules (note these are two separate bodies), when will they actually take affect? And is that a mere formality? Modest Geniustalk18:17, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I know, the Ministers of Finance and Heads of the Central Banks are usually appointed to control the IMF members' quotas (btw I've inserted the news into this section of the IMF article). The G20 finance ministers control the majority of quotas in the IMF and that's why all major decisions depend on the G20. When the reform actually will be implemented is unclear for me, perhaps during or just after the summit in November. And I'm not sure that the moment of the final implementation of the reform will make headlines, so better post it now or never. GreyHoodTalk20:00, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. If it is at the G20 summit in November, I'd be more inclined to post it then, on the general principle that we should report actual actions rather than announcements of intent (regardless of when the media reports on it). Modest Geniustalk20:21, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the final effects of the reform may actually be seen in practice only when IMF will next time take some major decision that requires voting, something like giving a credit to a country that needs IMF support. I'm not sure that the date of any such decision-making meeting has been set already. Anyway, what is important here is not the time when these 6% will be formally and in practice shifted, but the fact that developed nations finally recognised that the role and significance of developing nations and emerging markets have risen during the ongoing world financial crisis, something that had been failed to be done in Pittsburg Summit last year when they started to talk about 5%, not 6% shift. And the recognition of this important fact has taken place on October 23, not later. GreyHoodTalk21:40, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would be in favor of putting it now. We post world records in athletics when they are broken, not when they are ratified by IAAF. The decision is taken now, and the change will happen. The latter is a bureaucracy that nobody will really care then. Nergaal (talk) 22:04, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. The proposed news item seems to be supported, the banner has turned red, and there are almost no any other candidates that are not widely opposed. GreyHoodTalk20:23, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Several people are attacked in Uganda after a newspaper publishes the names and addresses of homosexuals. (BBC)
Files on the death of Britishbiological weapons inspector David Kelly, which had previously been kept secret by the British government for 7 years, are released, stating that his wounds were typical of "self-inflicted injury". (The Telegraph)(RTÉ)
Google says that its Street View cars collected more information than it previously admitted including e-mails, passwords and URLs and that it would change its privacy practices. (Reuters)
If it is indeed cat 5 (not like shown in the article, cat 4), and some significant number of deaths occur, I would be ok. Otherwise oppose. Nergaal (talk) 19:38, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This is likely the deadliest disaster in Haiti since the earthquake, and the first cholera outbreak in the country in a century. Article? ~AH1(TCU)18:53, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
2010 Haitian cholera outbreak currently redirects to the subsection of the Earth quake article called "October Cholera Outbreak." Since Haiti is third world condition information is only trickling out rather than overloading as it might if this had happened in the industrial world. it might be a day or two before we can spin it out into its own article but its big for sure The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 19:37, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How big and when was the previous outbreak of cholera (in other parts of the world)? Is this outbreak somewhat the norm in the 3rd world?. Nergaal (talk) 19:39, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
i see 2 para with 6 refs. is there anything else stopping this from going up? i know its short article but we pass smaller updates. its a major world news atm -- Ashish-g5515:35, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support in principle, but I'm really not happy with such a short stub. We do indeed post shorter updates, but only when there's a substantial article to go with them. At the moment the article really doesn't say much. Modest Geniustalk20:23, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, substantial claims of war crimes, foreign involvement, previously unknown/unconfirmed stuff, what have you. On the other hand, the article is in less than ideal shape. Also, about the blurb above, I'm not aware of another release of logs from the Iraq War, only the Afghanistan War. C628 (talk) 01:53, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, per above, plus it's being headlined by many news organisations only hours after it was released. Obviously notable for admission. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)02:50, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posting Is the article perfect? No. Is it better updated than most things we post? Yes, and more attention should help it grow faster. Courcelles07:11, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Belgian woman Els Clottemans is sentenced to 30 years imprisonment for murdering her love rival Els Van Doren by sabotaging her parachute so neither it nor a safety chute would open during a November 18, 2006 parachute jump. (Fox News)
Thousands of people protest in Buenos Aires, the capital of Argentina, after a left-wing activist is killed in a dispute between two labor unions. (BBC)
This has been dominating the news in Canada this week. A colonel in the Canadian military (highest rank behind general) pleaded guilty on Monday to charges (murder, rape, burglary) related to being a serial homicidal sex maniac. Today, he was sentenced to two life sentences plus 102 years. I know we don't ordinarily put murders on ITN, but the fact that this guy was so high-ranking (he ran one of Canada's most-important military bases) has made this a major national story with some international coverage. According to the Montreal Gazette: "Williams has appeared in leading national newspapers or news websites in the United States, the United Kingdom, Germany, Australia, Russia, Italy, France, Spain, South Africa, Brazil, India, Mexico, and more. In both the New York Times and the London Daily Mirror, a full 1,100 words were devoted to the killer colonel's confession, while Italy's La Repubblica published a photo gallery of the pictures Williams took of himself wearing women's underwear and lingerie." ([25]) -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:54, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support this is on the front page of BBC right now. This is a MAJOR news story here in Canada; it is not everyday such a high ranking person does something like this and it has completely rocked the Canadian Forces and everyone else involved. --PlasmaTwa201:28, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Err, it's not on the BBC front page for me, it's hidden under World -> US & Canada. Remember the BBC customises its indexes based on IP geolocation. As for the story itself, I can't decide whether to oppose based on tabloid-ness and lack of general significance, or be swayed by the media attention. I oppose, having thought about it a bit. Modest Geniustalk01:34, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How is this only tabloid interest? This is without a doubt the biggest news story in Canada in years and he's been called one of the worst offenders in Canadian history. This isn't exactly the latest Paris Hilton news. Saying this is not significant at all shows a complete lack of knowledge when it comes to Canadian news. --PlasmaTwa202:58, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
oppose I am not convinced. If only we allowed fair use images on the main page. I would like to see how some on would react to those lingerie pix on there ;-) The Resident Anthropologist (talk)
Oppose A random criminal with no wide impact. It's not as though it caused a giant hullabaloo eg Vatican Child abuse coverups, or reports of a culture of bullying/corruption in the army or police. Just a "kinky burglar" says the article. A colonel is not as rare or powerful as people might think as there are lots of ranks of generals, eg the person doing the daily briefings for the US Amry during the Iraq invasion in 2003 was a brigadier general. YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 03:50, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Why do people write as if "tabloid interest" and "wide coverage" are somehow mutually incompatible. Anything that is featured in the tabloids thereby already has "wide coverage" in the biggest selling papers, and therefore will be acknowledged at least, even if the coverage is less prurient, on broadcast and internet media who do not wish to appear aloof. Importance, not coverage: the public interest, not what interests the public. And on those grounds, oppose. Kevin McE (talk) 06:03, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose firstly the article on Myanmar is called Burma so you'll be exposing a Wiki politics issue (you're talking about the country changing its name from A to B, when the countries article is called C). Secondly because it doesn't seem like a particularly major change. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:06, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also its no big secret or controversy surrounding the Burma/Myanmar issue...Its like with USA sometimes its called the US, USA or the United States or the United States of America.--BabbaQ (talk) 21:12, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The new flag was just adopted. I say wait until the new Congress (elected on 7 November) opens, which will mark the new constitution and new flag. Grsz1121:13, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't get it. Nothing changes in the internal politics. Nobody seems to understand the point of this change. The situation is the same. It almost sounds like NK threatening to do another test: whoring for international attention? Or doing this to try to give their population something to contemplate about. Unless there is a proven reason/motivation behind this with some actual implications, this is even less notable than an election. Oppose. Nergaal (talk) 21:14, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I only asking,, if lets say Norway was to change their countries name then would it be notable and be put on the ITN section, we all know that would happen. So why is it any different with Myanmar...? --BabbaQ (talk) 21:17, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If "Norway" changed to "Acmeland" - maybe. If "Kingdom of Norway" changed to "Glorious Kingdom of Norway" - probably not. And that's what we're looking at here: "Union of Myanmar" becoming "Republic of the Union of Myanmar". The junta have stuck "Republic of the" at the beginning. It's not something I can get terribly excited about. TFOWR21:21, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While this is the kind of thing that interests me, I wonder if it interests many of our other readers. There's a certain geek/cruft aspect to this. Certainly if France or Canada were to change its flag, there would be some reader interest, but I just don't think the BurMyanmarese flag is something that that many people would care about. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:02, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Historic national change. However, if Cyclone Giri is posted then we may end up having two simultaneous Myanmar/Burma related stories. The long-running article name dispute is irrelavent, and can be discussed in the meantime. ~AH1(TCU)18:56, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good enough for me - at least the image is of the correct flag now! ;-) If you (or anyone) suggests a blurb I'll post it. TFOWR15:12, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posted. I've left out the name change and national anthem as they're not mentioned anywhere in the Burma article, the Politics of Burma article or the Flag of Burma article. If someone wants to update one or other of the articles the blurb could be expanded. I've not done the image as I'm short on time and dropping by Wikipedia as time permits. It should be a good image, however - I can't see the Wikileaks story (current top ITN item) having any relevant image. TFOWR16:40, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, but only if a reference to the actual Nature paper is added to the article. This is a significant new milestone, has been confirmed via spectroscopy (not just a photometric redshift), and the peer-reviewed paper has been published. Modest Geniustalk18:43, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That is about as uninformative as a photo could possibly be: difficult to imagine that there is not a picture of one of the other blurbs that would not be more suitable. Kevin McE (talk) 16:55, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's a rather nasty crop of a press release JPG, which makes it look really bad. We could probably get a much better version by downloading the original TIFF (or even working from the FITS files). And the fact that it's a tiny faint dot is kinda the point! Modest Geniustalk17:08, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
2010 Belgian love triangle skydiving murder trial
Belgian woman Els Clottemans is sentenced to 30 years imprisonment for murdering her love rival Els Van Doren by sabotaging her parachute.
Im nominating this article and news as it has reached beyond Belgium with the news of Cottemans being sentencef was reported on Fox News in the states and Sky News on the UK. Also mentioned in papers trough out Europe. A special case overall. --BabbaQ (talk) 16:47, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The two rival presidential candidates in Guinea agree to go ahead with a presidential run-off on Sunday amid the replacement of the head of the election commission. (BBC)
I'm nominating this as a separate item from the defence cuts below, as it's unclear whether people are supporting/opposing the defence cuts alone or the larger story today. To repeat my argument below, Support the story on today's spending cuts pending an updated article. The biggest budget cuts in decades (edit: biggest since WWII), and the cutting of half a million jobs, is pretty noteworthy. (If a corporaton announced that many cuts, would we post that?). It's not just getting reported in the US (top of the NYTimes btw), it's also top story at Al Jazeera, reported in Le Monde and Toronto's Globe and Mail. If this happened in the US there would be overwhelming support. We've reported several domestic US stories, such as the Don't Ask... ruling. This seems to be notable enough. Plus, we can combine this story and the previous defense cuts announcement, which certainly affects foreign policy.--Johnsemlak (talk) 18:06, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. The nuclear aspect - a 25% reduction by a nuclear power, and a permanent member of the UN Security Council - makes this an international story. Support. TFOWR20:17, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, major implications for the UK, especially the defense cuts, which also has worldwide repercussions due to the size of the UK armed forces. C628 (talk) 00:25, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to join Fox on the fence. He wasn't exactly young, nor was in perfect health according to our article, but he was head of state of a nuclear power. I wouldn't mind seeing this go up if the article were adequately updated considering it's a slow news day, but I'm not brimming with enthusiasm either. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:13, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, but if we want a Pakistan story, the one below about them having been found to be involved in the 2008 attacks on India might be good. Ks0stm(T•C•G)15:43, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
He was president for 4 years, equal to a single term in many countries. That's not a short time in politics. I can't say how significant he was--the presidency of Pakistan has evolved over the years--but as I understand he was the country's commander in chief.--Johnsemlak (talk) 16:41, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Being a Jimmy Carter type figure is not an ITN death criteria. i'm not sure of how much impact he had on pakistan's politics but the above comparison is not a valid by any means (atleast for ITN inclusion) -- Ashish-g5520:03, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose we have millions of Pakistan stories and this guy doesn't seem particularly exciting - Pakistan punches far above its population weight on WP:ITN. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:41, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support since being a president for four years is long enough (isn't that the same length as the United States?) and he seems to have been one of the presidents to have served longest in Pakistan in recent times. I don't know how any president of a country can be described as "insignificant" in its politics. Being forced out of office in a national uprising does sound quite significant actually. The article also states: "He was the first Balouch President of Pakistan". The BBC states that he helped found the party which is now in government there. He also resigned as president. He then founded another party and led it through a successful election campaign as recently as 2002. Are these enough reasons? --candle•wicke01:06, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - as morally frustrating as it is, it was just one death of a not-really-that-notable person. Presumably the election will be up sometime next year, anyway. f o x08:37, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
PM Cameron has announced an 8% cut in military spending. This is probably the biggest domestic issue in Britain this year (I'm American so I can't be quite positive). And it's getting some attention here in the colonies. DCT•C00:25, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It was announced on Tuesday because there's an even bigger announcement coming on Wednesday! Neutral for the moment, but the two announcements should be taken together as one story. Physchim62(talk)00:35, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll wait and see what the news is today but if it's the largest series of cuts 'in decades', I would likely support provided there's a suitable article. There is no firm rule against domestic news items and this one seems awfully significant. Plus, the military cuts are already affecting the UK's foreign relations, so it's not really just a 'local' story even now.--Johnsemlak (talk) 04:32, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As to the specific area of military cuts, it has already dropped out of UK TV news headlines today, in place of speculation about cuts in other areas. Kevin McE (talk) 07:25, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, including today's announcements, unless something really unpredictable happens (selling the royal family to Pixar, Volkswagon to take over running the NHS, mass slaughter of the financially unproductive...). We've given coverage to the fact of the world recession, each govt will have a response to that which will include some cutbacks. We don't need to give details of each country's response, whether it is Tahiti, UK, or US. Kevin McE (talk) 06:01, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - the fourth-largest military in the world just had nearly a tenth of their budget cut while plans to scrap their flagship aircraft carrier were significantly accelerated, and a retooling of the military towards Afghan-style wars will be undertaken. Definitely internationally significant. Ed[talk][majestic titan]06:35, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Most countries are having to tighten their belts and I fail to see why cuts in the UK (and specifically in the military) are more notable than anywhere else. I suspect that come later today, when full details are announced of cuts, it will be public sector job cuts that will be making the news... --Daviessimo (talk) 06:55, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - biggest domestic issue this year? Not even close. Trivial news filler. Important now, perhaps, but not in a week. f o x08:15, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. It probably is the biggest domestic news in the UK this year, but it's still domestic news. Many other countries are slashing budgets to deal with the recession, so, from a global perspective, it's not significant. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:54, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This is not even the biggest story in the UK this month. It's only making the US news because you finally realised your coalition 'partner' was only bringing a pea shooter to the party, and is about to cut that super weapon in half due to your fucked up ideas about what makes a good mortgage deal or not. MickMacNee (talk) 15:28, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support the story on today's spending cuts pending an updated article. The biggest budget cuts in decades (does anyone have a more precise time-frame that that?), and the cutting of half a million jobs, is pretty noteworthy. (If Ford announced that many cuts, would we post that?). It's not just getting reported in the US (top of the NYTimes btw), it's also top story at Al Jazeera, reported in Le Monde and Toronto's Globe and Mail. If this happened in the US there would be overwhelming support. We've reported several domestic US stories, such as the Don't Ask... ruling. This seems to be notable enough. It's far more notable than the guy who won some motorcycle races or the Canadian GC.--Johnsemlak (talk) 16:57, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, we'd post it if Ford suddenly cut half a million jobs because that would mean Ford had suddenly gone out of business, taking with it 300,000 more employees than it actually has. If, however, Ford announced cutting 8% of its work force? Meh. --Golbez (talk) 19:40, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, mounting tensions and turmoil, death toll has also risen. Yes, these target killings are part of the 2010 Karachi riots as there are politically and ethnic-motivated factors behind the attacks. Mar4d (talk) 09:01, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think I get where Grsz11 was coming from, assuming that the third largest city in Canada must be small. But it's still nearly a million people. Sure, that would place it somewhere around 10th in the USA... I oppose simply because a municipal election is rarely national or international news, no matter who it is. In fact, by not harping on the fact that he's Muslim, we would be doing a service by not kowtowing to what I presume is a reactionary media reporting on it from outside Calgary. Would we include the first Buddhist, or Baha'i, or Zoroastrian, or what not to win an election in Canada? No? Then why are Muslims different? --Golbez (talk) 14:15, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. For cities the size of Canada, it would frankly have to be first martian becomes Mayor. This isn't even 1/20th the size of London, or even Scotland hilariously enough. MickMacNee (talk) 15:40, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Especially since it's 1/5th the size of Scotland, bringing MickMacNee's entire comment into question. (Also, the only cities the size of Canada are Tokyo and Sao Paulo! ;)) --Golbez (talk) 21:20, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. It's an indicator of significant progress, but we can't post every first homosexual/ethnic minority/religious minority leader of every place. I might support for a capital city or a city that's otherwise very important or very well-known internationally but I'm afraid Calgary (as decent-a-city as I'm sure it is) is just not on that level of significance. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:13, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose not because Calgary isn't an important city, but because Canada doesn't suffer from the same anti-Muslim problems as the States does. This isn't a groundbreaking story here like it would be if it happened in the States. --PlasmaTwa205:38, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Very Strong Support for this one. An official conclusion that a major terrorist offensive against a sovereign nation was directly (Not tangentially) aided and financed by another sovereign nation is major international news a la Bay of Pigs, 1979 Soviet Coup in Afghanistan, Etc. This, while war is still extremely unlikely, gives India legal Casus Belli. Cwill151 (talk) 03:00, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Seeing as everything above this seems to have (so far, at least) been for the most part roundly opposed, perhaps this could be posted, since it has no major objections and the timer is red? Not sure how to word the blurb though... Ks0stm(T•C•G)18:44, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
=P What I seem to be doing is confusing previously released material with the information in this current report. Give me a sec, I'll update the article with at least the fact that the new report was released. Ks0stm(T•C•G)19:05, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I updated with the very basics ("An Indian report was released in October 2010 concluding that Pakistan's intelligence agency had aided in the 2008 attacks, providing funding for reconnaissance missions in Mumbai.") and the Fox News AP article as the ref...as for a more detailed update, someone better than me at prose synthesis will have to expand. Ks0stm(T•C•G)19:14, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I added some more prose, too. I'm a bit "edited out": if someone suggests a blurb I'll post, but I'm going to grab a cup of tea before I try thinking about words again ;-) TFOWR19:54, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose unless something big comes out of this. Terrorists attacks are not uncommon in Chechnia and I am not convinced a separate article is required. Btw 6 people dying of which 3 are terrorists does not shout ITN worthy. Nergaal (talk) 09:20, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
High profile attacks like this are uncommon in Chechnya these days. The violence has reduced a lot in the last few years. The situation is different in neighbouring republics like Ingushetia. Attacking the parliament is about as high profile as you can get, although this one directly involved only 3-4 terrorists. Offliner (talk) 09:39, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. An attack on a national Parliament is an internationally notable event. Well, more than a routine election in nowhereiziistan anyway. MickMacNee (talk) 10:41, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hm. On the one hand, most people would know that it's in Russia, just as we would state that someone became Governor of California, not Governor of California, United States. On the other hand, I'm sure some people will say that, by omitting Russia, we're somehow recognizing a Chechen independence that does not exist either on paper or in fact. --Golbez (talk) 13:35, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Iraq War: Amid increasing uncertainty about the timing of the release of the next batch of classified documents by WikiLeaks, the U.S. military assembles a 120-member team to search its database for clues in preparation for the publication event. (The New Zealand Herald)(BBC)
China releases the Tibetan writer, Kalsang Tsultrim, who was arrested in China earlier this year for what China termed a "political error". (MSN)[permanent dead link]
American olympic gold medalist LaShawn Merritt is suspended 21 months for doping. (BBC)
Foreclosure crisis
In response to the Foreclosure crisis of 2010, Bank of America freezes and then later resumes foreclosure activities in 23 states with judicial foreclosure review, JP Morgan, Citigroup, and Wells Fargo also temporarily hault foreclosure proceedings in some or all states.
Just started this article. I was shocked to find no information about it on wikipedia. Obviously one of the biggest news stories in the USA the last two weeks. CoolMike (talk) 23:10, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wanted to add that even though the article is in really rough shape, the event is especially news-worthy and would very likely be greatly improved by being linked from the front page. CoolMike (talk) 01:02, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We currently have stories on a storm in the Philippines, strikes in France, and a tunnel in Switzerland. You didn't oppose those. DCT•C02:10, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
and the only one I supported was the supertyphoon. agree the strikes in France are more local in impact than this story but then that one is in Europe and this one is in the USA ;)--Wikireader41 (talk) 02:32, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. The various doubts about the legality of foreclosures in the U.S. have made it into the news on the opposite side of the Atlantic, but I'm still not clear about what the ITN story is. Are we saying that lots of people are having their mortgages foreclosed? In which case, no big deal, what do you expect in the worst recession for thirty-odd years? Or are we saying that lots of people are having their mortgages foreclosed wrongly? In which case, we're just dealing with allegations, and allegations which will no doubt end up before the courts of all fifty States. I find it hard to see an ITN story in here, but I'm willing to be convinced. Physchim62(talk)02:40, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Good points. I would say that the in the news story is really three parts. First, recent and serious allegations were made against very large banks, including Bank of America, one of the largest financial institutions on the planet. The allegations themselves are noteworthy in this case becuase under a common interpretation discusssed in various news papers, radio reports, and TV news reports, they amount to allegations of surprisingly widespread fraud (one or two sources claim 90% of forclosures are missing proper documentation). However, I understand that a report of allegations probably should not be a front-page ITN news story. The second news story, which I think is much more ITN worthy, is the temporary and voluntary suspension of foreclosure procedings from four very large US banks, following a month where 100,000 new forclosures were initiated (in itself a record in the US). I think this should probably be the ITN headline, ie: "Citigroup, Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and JPMorgan partially suspend foreclosure procedings in the US in response to allegations of misconduct known as the 2010 US Foreclosure crisis." I suppose the third option would be to discuss the "Robo-signing" controvesy more directly. A google search will show you that the robo-signing controversy has gotten very significant press coverage as well. That being said, I think I like the middle option the best. I really wish I had more time to write up a much better article. I think perhaps we should change the name to something like "2010 US Forclosure crisis". Also, someone should take a stab at filling out the section "voluntary suspension of forclosures" which I have left blank. If I get some time I will fill it in. As it stands I am still at work and it is 11pm my time. CoolMike (talk) 02:56, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also note that Bank of America is listed by Forbes as the third largest company (of any kind) in the world. Citigroup probably isn't far behind, and Wells Fargo and JPMorgan are also huge. Additionally, some news sources and experts have placed the possible cost of the crisis to these banks at greater than 100 billion dollars. Other experts claim the cost will be in the low billions dollars (comparitively small change). Remember again that the fall of just a handful of banks was a bellweather of the worldwide economic collapse of the late 2000's and I have found at least one source that claims this could be the beginning of a double-dip recession. Who can say how big of a deal this really is? Certainly the Y2K bug was noteworthy and newsworthy, even if it didn't cuase any worldwide or even national problems. Anyhow, Cheers! CoolMike (talk) 23:04, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not blatently criminal: seems more like sheer incompetence to me. If a bank can't foreclose on a domestic mortgage correctly, then what can it do? Even then, while it is shocking incompetence, it is hardly world record financial incompetence – the Icelanders will hold that "honour" for a long time, I think. Physchim62(talk)23:13, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Additional Comments Note sure how much commenting is appropriate as I am the originator of the suggestion. However, I wanted to attach some links that discuss the potentially massive impact of this scandal. This article discusses the possibility of this causing a double dip recession: [dip]. This article was posted just an hour ago and discusses possible criminal charges that are being discussed in Washington: [charges]. Finally, here is a very short article about how the crisis is starting to hurt the rest of the housing market. [market]. I only wish I had a little bit more time to edit the article in question. It badly needs work. CoolMike (talk) 23:14, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Technical point. From what I can gather, the decision to suspend foreclosures happened two weeks ago [36]. If that's true, the story is out-of-timescale for ITN. Physchim62(talk)23:19, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support in theory. This is a major financial story with global implications. However, it's one of those things, like the subprime mortgage crisis itself, that is a long-running thing rather than a single event. Bank of America's action alone doesn't seem like an ITN-type entry, but how else can we frame this? -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:22, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for the moment. As it stands, the story is a round peg trying to fit into the square hole that is ITN. I'll certainly reconsider if there are any big developments (e.g. one of the big mortgage lenders needing to be rescued). Physchim62(talk)23:36, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think if there was a single big development to this story so far, it was the announcement of the investigation by the 50 state attorneys general of the U.S. But I don't think there was an article at that time. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:40, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm with CoolMike when he suggests that the story was the suspension of foreclosures by the big mortgage lenders; onfortunately, it slipped under our radar at the time. It would also have been a story if the President had forced a suspension of foreclosures, but he didn't. So my feeling is that we should wait for the next big development (I've a feeling that this story will run for quite a while), and use the time to improve the article. Physchim62(talk)00:06, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This might be fair enough. I will take the time to try and improve the article for now. I will resubmit the article for ITN if there is any substantial legal action taken against the banks (for example, if criminal charges get filed). Also, it looks as if there is a chance President Obama will step in and make it news-worthy again by addressing congress on the issue or calling for new legislation or something like that. Its a shame that we missed this thing. I actually started the article after trying to learn about the crisis. I actually navigated to the english wikipedia main page, expecting to see a link to the appropriate article in the "ITN" section of the main page. I have to admit I was a little confused when nothing showed up there. CoolMike (talk) 14:49, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I've tried to understand wtf this new 'crisis' is all about about five times now, and I still have no idea. You aren't going to convince anyone who doesn't already know in a one line blurb, so it's a no from me. MickMacNee (talk) 15:44, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Basically, during the financial crisis of the past few years, a lot of Americans have lost their homes. In order for the economy to come back, the housing market has to get going again. But the resale of those foreclosed homes has gotten messed up because the banks failed to process the foreclosures properly. This was the lead story on two of the four U.S. network newscasts tonight (the other two had Clarence Thomas's wife asking Anita Hill for an apology). So I think it's still fresh enough to go on ITN. Perhaps we can use the following blurb:
A foreclosure crisis jeopardizes the revival of the U.S. housing market.
Response to MickMacNee (above) The idea isn't to convince anyone of anything. I simply find the whole thing fascinating. Also, I was hoping that a stint on the front page would help jump-start the article and get it into good shape. I think the article should be on par with other important ITN articles we have all seen in the past. Think about how the wikipedia article on the earthquake in haiti became such an important and well regarded resource for people interested in the aftermath. I remember reading a news article that stated something to the effect that for all intents and puposes that article was the clearinghouse for up to date information on the subject (or something to that effect). Anyhow, to repeat, the idea isn't to convince anyone that this is a real problem, the idea is to report what all of the other news stations and papers are reporting on and present the facts as they are presented in verifiable sources. Leave the rest up to the reader. CoolMike (talk) 16:03, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Didn't we include Contador because he won this year's Tour de France? Merritt has been on suspension for a year - all they did today was tell him when his suspension would end...the 21 month ban includes "time served". Unless they strip Merritt of his Olympic medals, I oppose. --Smashvilletalk22:14, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Suspension was placed in April. And Contador won the Tour three times, with the suspension coming two months after the most recent win. Grsz1122:30, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now - article is not updated and has an empty section. Wait until impacts come in - simply being at its strength isn't notable for ITN. Would support if it causes major damage, which it likely will, but as MG said, WP:NOTCRYSTAL. Also seems too unstable at this time as sections are still undergoing expansion. Strange Passerby (talk • c • status) 15:56, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support later on after it owns the Philippines, as it is currently forecasted to do...also support even if, hopefully, no lives are lost as a result. Ks0stm(T•C•G)19:15, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I usually look the other way when these get nominated, as I'm no big fan of tropical storm stories, but the biggest tropical cyclone in more than 30 years has to be worth an ITN piece (that needs to be in the article before it can go in the blurb, BTW). Physchim62(talk)23:09, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support but wait until it is closer to landfall. It shouldn't get posted now, then get bumped off, then potentially renommed because of the damage. Nergaal (talk) 01:36, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I support posting it at landfall. It's apparently one of the biggest storms to hit land ever. Also support saying bad-ass storm in the blurb :) (my apologies to anyone who doesn't find that funny).--Johnsemlak (talk) 04:44, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just a note, the term 'category 5' and 'super tyhpoon' are terms used by the US Dept of Defense's Joint Typhoon Warning Center and not by the Japanese Meteorological Agency, which is the official warning center for the West Pacific. - CWY2190(talk • contributions) 14:30, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Suggested blurb: Typhoon Megi, (Juan) becomes the ninth most intense tropical cyclone on record as it makes landfall in Isabela Province, in the Philippines, killing 2 people and causing severe damage. - I know the media is reporting the deaths slightly higher but im think its best we keep to the official death toll as reported by the Philippine NDCC.Jason Rees (talk) 14:44, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, I think that's way too long. If it's killed only two people, let's focus on its intensity. Also, why the ", (Juan)"? If it has two different names, use one or the other, but both is unnecessary. Strange Passerby (talk • c • status) 14:47, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, this has been posted so WP:ERRORS would be a better bet for this conversation now. However, and coincidentally, I've just removed the second instance of "make landfall". TFOWR15:20, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(ECx2) Its actually 9th in the world as the template on LOTMITC is only for the WPAC, im currently writing one for the whole world (though the only change is Hurricane Wilma is added to the world one in 8th place).Jason Rees (talk) 15:25, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support implementing the death toll so far (at least 20) and the evacuations in South China (where it's expected to make landfall next, but now only as TS). Future noms should make sure they remember that category 8 super typhoons currently DO NOT EXIST. ~AH1(TCU)00:24, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Seems notable enough as she's the first Australian saint. Also interesting in that she had been excommunicated by the Church but later reinstated, maybe that could be included in the blurb if necessary. Strange Passerby (talk • c • status) 08:52, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Significantly updated, first for Australia, of interest internationally. I'm agnostic, but isn't this a great ITN for a Sunday? :-) TFOWR09:52, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No image, because I'm an image-idiot and I'll break something - obviously smarted folk than what I am can add the image later. Image idiocy issues aside, last-minute thoughts on posting welcomed. Everyone happy with ALT0 as the blurb? (incidentally: BBC and The Age say five others. I've changed "alongside" to "along with" - "alongside" makes it sound as if they were all standing next to each other at the Vatican...) TFOWR12:59, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posted. TFOWR, the image thing is easy—if it's a Commons image, just copy it to your computer, upload it locally, copy the tags from Commons and add {{c-uploaded}} or {{m-cropped}}, then change the image on ITN (which is cascade protected, so you don't have to worry about protecting it). I would, but it's taken me nearly 10 minutes just to load this page. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:37, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll give it a try. It's mostly the protection that concerns me, and the possibility of being slapped with a large aquatic animal by an editor with a greek alphabetical username... TFOWR13:42, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I could do with some sanity-checking: the "(pictured)" right before the m-dash looks wrong. I suspect protection is fine - I took a belt-and-braces approach and fully-protected the image, so with cascading protection as well I suspect I'm safe from fish. TFOWR14:00, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There wouldn't happen to be a article we could link to that lists all the saints that were canonised today? It seems strange that we only link to one of them. --PlasmaTwa215:27, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thousands of saints have been named over a period of two thousand years, so canonization is still a relatively rare event. There are over 1.1 billion Catholics in the world, the majority of whom could be described as 'devout' to some degree. 'Only devout Catholics' is a pretty large group. --Johnsemlak (talk) 18:35, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are many meanings and applications of the word saint: we should not use one of them restrictively on the front page. That is to favour a particular POV, as Orthodox Christians, Anglicans, Protestants, Mormons, Jews, Hindus or Buddhists, as well as Catholics taking the wider definition into account, might disagree that "Mary MacKillop is the first Australian saint": she could of course be described as the "first Australian so recognised". Kevin McE (talk) 06:22, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The current blurb does specify that the Pope canonized McKillop, which identifies this as a Catholic matter and I think addresses that concern somewhat, though probably inadequately. The word canonize is also specifically Catholic. It's a valid concern though. The tricky thing is there's no firm difference as far as I'm aware between Catholic saints and Orthodox saints or other branches of Christianity. However, the issue of saint's outside Christianity I think is stretching the meaning of 'saint' and IMO is an unnecessary concern.--Johnsemlak (talk) 08:11, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
2010 strikes in France: Thousands of students join millions more people on the streets of France for a fifth day of protests against government pension reform plans; Paris-Charles de Gaulle Airport is running out of fuel amid calls by the government for people "not to panic". (BBC)(Al Jazeera)
China mounts a diplomatic campaign to block the publication of a U.N. report that claims that Chinese ammunition has been shipped into Darfur in the past year in violation of U.N. sanctions. (The Washington Post)(Bor Globe)
Zambia investigates an incident in which managers at a Chinese-run mine allegedly shot and wounded at least 11 miners who had objected to their working conditions. (Zambia Post)(BBC)
Politics and elections
44 people are arrested regarding poll-related violence in the second phase of the panchayat elections in Uttar Pradesh, India. (DNA)
The #18-ranked Wisconsin Badgers defeated the previously unbeaten #1-ranked Ohio State Buckeyes by a score of 31-18 in Madison, Wisconsin. The victory provided a spark for the Badgers' season, which culminated in a 2010 Big Ten Conference championship, ending a decade-long championship drought, and a Rose Bowl appearance on January 1, 2011 in Pasadena, California. The victory would go on to become a defining transition moment for Wisconsin football, as the program again established itself as a perennial Big Ten powerhouse. The Badgers would go on to win three consecutive Big Ten Championships, extend its postseason bowl streak, and produce many nationally-recognized players (including multiple Heisman Trophy finalists) in the coming years. The 2010 team featured many future NFL players, including future NFL MVP runner-up and Defensive Player of the YearJ. J. Watt, 2010 Outland Trophy winner Gabe Carimi, Lance Kendricks, Kevin Zeitler, Rick Wagner, and Brad "B52" Nortman, among others. [38]
I'm kind of on the fence. It is a little obscure, but it's impressive at the same time. I'd suggest waiting until the Expo closes at the end of the month, and then considering posting? TFOWR10:05, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. So what? We can't go posting every attendance record, especially since the Expos have a tendency to keep getting bigger. We already featured the opening. Modest Geniustalk15:58, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Seems to be a bit of a slow news day so I thought I'd throw this up. It seems the French have been on strike for 5 days with more strikes planned. Around 900,000 people have been taking part in mass protests and oil refineries have been affected, leading to panic buying and fuel shortages. I'm not aware of an article, but I expect there'll be a general article somewhere. BBCHJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:50, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. BBC figures: Saturday 16 October: 825,000 - 3 million, Tuesday 12 October: 1.2m - 3.5 million, Saturday 2 October: 899.000 - 3 million, Thursday 23 September: 997,000 - 3 million, Tuesday 7 September: 1.2m - 2.7 million . That's a lot on any one of those days, never mind five. Tuesday is expected to be day six. All the country's refineries affected with most already shut down, 10% of filling stations running out of petrol, schools shut, Marseille's port full of rubbish... this is clearly not an ordinary protest. --candle•wicke02:38, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral (and trying not to let my opinion that this is a stupid thing to strike about affect my judgement). These are certainly big strikes, but with fresh rounds of austerity measures coming up worldwide there are bound to be many more in the near future. Modest Geniustalk15:59, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding is that these strikes consist of several, separate days with the most recent being last Tuesday (12 October) and Saturday (16 October). The next day is tomorrow. There seems to be consensus to post this; however, would it be worth holding off until tomorrow? Candlewicke, your blurb suggests that there are strikes right now - am I misreading the situation? Either way, I'd suggest that the blurb should reflect that the strikes have been ongoing since early September. TFOWR12:01, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think today's events have been added to the article, but there have been riots in the streets and CDG, Europe's second-busiest airport, has seen major disruption. We've posted smaller events in smaller countries before and this kind of thing is very rare for a G8 economy. It's gone beyond the typical French tendency to go on strike. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:23, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posting shortly. Shout now if you have any problems with:
Strikes continue in France as millions of people demonstrate against government attempts to raise the retirement and pension ages.
Oppose I'm sure he was very notable but his death at 85 isn't significant. Nothing against this nom specifically, that's just what I say for almost all old-age deaths suggested here. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:20, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Significant mathematician and populariser of mathematics. I don't really like the current one-sentence Death section - it should either be incorporated into the other prose or expanded. Modest Geniustalk20:25, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support. A death at the age of 85 from pancreatic cancer is not really unexpected, but this gentleman was significant in a field that is under-represented on ITN and the articles is in decent shape though, as MG says, the death section will need some work. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:29, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support He did groundbreaking work with fractals and is very well known, I think. But the article's death section itself needs some more work. /ƒETCHCOMMS/20:37, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
MPs called for a "wide-ranging and independent inquiry" after G4S agents restrain and suffocate Jimmy Mubenga during his deportation from England. (The Guardian)
This was suggested a week ago, but it was clear the sale wouldn't be complete for some time. It is now complete, after a week of some pretty well-covered drama involving the club in the relegation zone1, mired in debt and just one day away from administration or bankruptcy. The sale was initially blocked by court cases in London and Texas, before finally proceeding. Liverpool is, according to WP, the most successful English football club and this takeover has happened in quite dramatic circumstances. Plus, the sale of a top sports club is certainly not an everyday occurrence. --Johnsemlak (talk) 03:52, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, covered internationally (was lead story on BBC World News and third story on CNN International when it went through, for example) and if ITN did Kraft taking over Cadbury, this isn't dissimilar. Strange Passerby (talk • c • status) 04:16, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Just to clarify a couple of things... Firstly, Liverpool's poor start to the season doesn't really have anything to do with the takeover. Liverpool had more players at the world cup than any other English side and is feeling the effects of having no squad depth. Secondly, the sale of Cadbury was for £12bn - this sale is for £300m. This is reflective of the fact that Cadbury's primary function is to make money, whereas Liverpool's primary function is to win things - realistically the two are not comparable. Thirdly, while the parent company Kop Holdings was in debt (to the tune of £280m) Liverpool itself was entirely solvent. As such, even if the club had gone into administration it would have been easily sold on as a whole and there was never any risk of bankruptcy and a winding up order. The problem for Hicks and Gillett was that RBS was unwilling to extend credit facilities for the debt likely because RBS is effectively state owned and the debt meant Liverpool was effectively owned by RBS, which is an apparent conflict of interest. Finally, the actions of H&G in twice taking the issue to court were nothing more than a stalling tactic. NESV had long said they would withdraw their offer if the club went into administration (because the looming prospect of a nine point reduction would leave Liverpool on -3 points for the season). To quote Lord Justic Floyd "The owners' behaviour conclusively demonstrates just how incorrigible they are... They are absolutely determined to stop this transaction in its tracks and they have no lawful justification for behaving in this way". My own feeling is the media attention has only occurred because of the actions of H&G and their constant attempts to block the sale. Thus, if this were to be posted, I would suggest the focus should illustrate that issue:
Daviessimo, I don't disagree with anything you say, but I'll just point out that LFC's slow start, while not related to the takeover, does add to the drama of the situation by creating an (exaggerated) picture of a club in crisis and now possibly being rescued by a new owner. Regarding administration, you're of course correct that the club itself wasn't in danger but as you point out the club faced a real threat of a nine-point penalty if Kop Holdings became insolvent. Anyway, I support the blurb.--Johnsemlak (talk) 10:01, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, as a UK based football fan (and if Mkativerata thinks Liverpool are mediocre, he should considre the history of my lot). A change in ownership of a medium sized business is not ITN material. Professional sports clubs are to the business world what celebrities are to the human population: they gain media attention beyond their relevance or worth. Kevin McE (talk) 10:27, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. The story has generated a huge amount of international interest for an event which is essentially irrelevant outside of English football. The football fans here in Barça country have been asking me what on Earth is going on with Liverpool. But the single paragraph in the Liverpool F.C. article doesn't even begin to explain the story. I'd find it hard to support without much more encyclopedic material, probaby as a separate article to avoid WP:UNDUE problems in the main club article. Physchim62(talk)11:31, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My point precisely: it is essentially irrelevant outside of not only English football, but outside one English football club. Coverage is totally disproportionate to importance. This is essentially a business story, but because the business involved is in the football industry, its publicity is grossly inflated. Just like John Terry and Wayne Bridge's spat earlier this year (which luckily got nowhere near ITN, although it was all over the UK news and I suspect was featured elsewhere too) was essentially a domestic issue, but their profile lead to blanket coverage of it. Kevin McE (talk) 12:57, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose (trying to remain neutral!) - if the deal hadn't gone through I'd be all for putting this up (there wouldn't BE a Liverpool any longer) but since it has it's really just another day at the office. I imagine anyone not following Liverpool will not even notice anything has changed. f o x12:25, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This has very much been in the international news all week, and for good reason, because while most other top clubs have indeed changed ownership/majority shareholding in the last few years, none has been done so in quite the hilarious farce like way this one has. And while all true English football fans know Liverpool are a spent force who have been dining out on past glories for decades, there are enough people around the world and in the media who still believe they are a top club, to justify this as an ITN entry on interest grounds alone. It might even educate a few Boston based Yanks about their owner's new toy which is about to drain their baseball budget. MickMacNee (talk) 13:13, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, even as a football fan, this is hardly an important event—I don't care how much coverage it gets. Agreeing with Kevin on that one. Nightw13:59, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments like 'Coverage is disproportionate to importance' or 'no matter how much coverage it gets' seem to not be NPOV to me. Coverage is coverage; are we to judge people on being interested in something they shouldn't be interested in? One of ITN's criteria is stories of 'wide interest in WP's readers' and the takeover certainly meets that. It's relevant beyond LFC and English football and I know that because of the interest it's getting. Also, I see this kind of sports story far more interesting that the normal, routine stories of' x-competitor defeats y-competitor to win z-competition.' These stories are posted in ITN all the time and frankly many of them are of no great significance.--Johnsemlak (talk) 09:23, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't follow your logic. What exactly is the significance of changing ownership, except that it changes their chance of winning one of those competitions? Because if the competitions aren't notable then the ownership certainly isn't. Modest Geniustalk16:02, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'd say the takeover is more significant that several lesser sports that get covered on ITN, for a start, many of which are only popular in one or a few countries while this event is being reported worldwide (in part because the club has fans worldwide). I would certainly agree that a change of ownership of a club itself is not particularly notable but LFC's takeover by NESV was a week-long drama that was reported intensely worldwide.--Johnsemlak (talk) 18:40, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If we cannot distinguish between the fact of coverage and the importance of the issue, we have no excuse not to post all sorts of celebrity and reality tv nonsense. I hope that Johnmsemlak is not suggesting that diswcussion on talk pages should be subject to NPOV rules: that would severely limit debate. Kevin McE (talk) 21:09, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's fair to equate the sale of LFC to reality tv nonsense. It's a sports story--we cover sports on ITN all the time. IMO (though certainly others disagree) it's as notable as many previous sports stories posted. I'm not saying coverage should be a sole indicator of notability but coverage is perfectly valid evidence of interest in a story, and evidence of widespread coverage is often used by ITN contributers. I apologize for suggesting that NPOV not be allowed in debate, though I think it's reasonable to expect reasons for or against to be as NPOV as possible.--Johnsemlak (talk) 04:37, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Cancer almost unheard of for 99.99999% of geological history
Mankind's number three killer is a post-Industrial Revolution disease – and that's not because of past lifespans.
Oppose Study based on negative evidence "suggests" cancer is a modern disease because even children get it nowadays? The scientific holes are huge - for instance, in the past childhood mortality from other causes was phenomenal - is it possible only very healthy children, unlikely to get cancer, survived other diseases. The headline claim is not an actual discovery, but an hypothesis.μηδείς (talk) 21:11, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support. The study is based on studies of hundreds of remains as well as literature. This is pretty sensational. __meco (talk) 21:43, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Going on the press reports, this is pure sensationalism. If the direct quotations in the Daily Telegraph article are to be believed, then the study scientists don't even know much about the different causes of cancer; this leads me to doubt that their interpretation of mummified remains is objective. Even discounting my opinion on that point, the study is entirely based on negative evidence, which is a very weak basis for such a claim. Physchim62(talk)22:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
weak oppose the basic premise that "modern lifestyles" ( overeating, smoking, living longer, women having less number of babies etc) have led to a dramatic increase in cancer incidence is probably right. but comparing cancer rates in mummies to people is just junk science--Wikireader41 (talk) 02:46, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Ancient people usually died of something else before cancer could get them. How is this new or surprising? Seems to be attracting overinflated media attention that the study does not itself indulge in. Quoth the abstract: 'A striking rarity of malignancies in ancient physical remains might indicate that cancer was rare in antiquity'. Note the sober language and key 'might'. Modest Geniustalk15:22, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ahmaedenijad wraps up visit to Lebanon
per the statement below which also had 2 supports vs. 1 oppose (excl. nom). Certainly notable, controversial, and newsworth in int'l coverage, particularly under the circumstances(Lihaas (talk) 07:51, 15 October 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Oppose very antagonistic move, but not an international incident or any other significance. Routine head of State to neighboring country and ally.There is some heat in the oven but the kitchen is not on fire The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 17:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the visit itself was very routine and didn't lead to anything groundbreaking. No more important than a state visit by Obama, which I doubt would make it on ITN. --PlasmaTwa218:41, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The pope's visit to the UK went up, and that was far less controversial than this one.
And its not "routine" its a first like the Pope's with far more controversy in the circumstances of this year, exspecially. )see the first nom. below.(Lihaas (talk) 03:01, 16 October 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Support, the Pope was posted after all. There is lots of coverage in the international media. TIME seems to consider it an important event. Iranian media even uses the word "notable". --candle•wicke11:08, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Then what is a "run-off-the-mill" visit, if this seems to be characterised as such?
Did you know the head of the Anglican Church travels abroad? He is in India right now. And the Aga Khan. And the Dalai Lama? I suppose these are not "run-off-the-mill" visits.(Lihaas (talk) 03:45, 18 October 2010 (UTC));[reply]
Comment: Epochal feat of civil engineering. The articles and links will need to be updated once the tunnel is ceremonially completed this morning UTC. Sandstein 08:58, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support we don't post this kind of thing often (the last time being the Wuhan-Guangzhou railway??) and it is an important achievement - especially if its the world's longest. PS as its Europe it should be railway not railroad :p. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:15, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Broken through now. Longest transport tunnel is more accurate, as 'rail' implies there might be a longer road tunnel out there. Although it would be good to keep the description as a railway tunnel in there aswell. MickMacNee (talk) 12:29, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
ITN is about what is in the news right now, so I really don't understand the oppose votes. By this logic we should post climate change news only after 2050, because that's when the major impact will be felt. Offliner (talk) 14:29, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
support its a world record. we can post it again in 7 years when it opens. dont need to limit items that happen once in a decade... -- Ashish-g5514:32, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On June 10, the plurality win of the VVD (People's Party for Freedom and Democracy) was featured in the In the news section [39]. But the fact that a minority government coalition of People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD) and Christian Democratic Appeal (CDA) is made possible with the support of the Party for Freedom (PVV) of Geert Wilders is newsworthy on its own. A support treaty was signed by VVD, CDA and PVV. Perhaps the hook should be phrased differently to reflect this. – JamesBrownIsDead (talk) 17:10, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. We posted the election (actually, I was the admin who posted it as it happens) and, correct me if I'm wrong, but, as far as I can see, this is just the result of the election. The only thing that seems to have happened is the haggling to form a working government, which is pretty routine when it comes to coalition governments which, in turn, are not uncommon in Europe. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:10, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The support treaty is controversial to some [40][41], not in the last place since PVV party leader Geert Wilders is currently being prosecuted for several counts of inciting hatred and discrimination against muslims: Trial of Geert Wilders. – James (talk) 22:18, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In the past, we have routinely posted changes of head of government in parliamentary systems: the exact moment we post them has depended on the constitutional details of the country involved. I'm well aware that there's less enthusiasm for these "routine" politics stories now than in the past. I'll still support, because the Netherlands would qualify on most peoples definitions of an "important" country, and because of the time it has taken to form the government after the elections. Physchim62(talk)23:15, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a massive time period, it usually takes over a month. I'm neutral, because although we already featured the election and therefore would not normally post it, the Geert Wilders connection is attracting attention. Modest Geniustalk15:28, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Six people, including an Iraqi Interior Ministry official and four members of a leading political bloc, die in multiple explosions throughout Baghdad apparently targeting members of former prime Minister Ayad Allawi's al-Iraqiya political coalition; four were killed in a roadside bomb and three others were wounded. (CNN)
A new border gate opens on the divided island of Cyprus, providing a seventh crossing point between the Turkish-controlled TRNC and the southern part of the country. (TRT)
Rights groups in Indonesia welcome the striking down of a Suharto-era law banning books that were deemed to be "offensive" or a "threat to public order". (AP)(Jakarta Post)(BBC)
Oppose, per the previous agreement that we would only post both opening & closing ceremonies for the olympics, and opening ceremonies only for the other major athletics events. Modest Geniustalk19:54, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I would otherwise support, with this being the English Wikipedia and these games being pretty much *the Games* of the Anglosphere. But if there was a previous consensus, then I guess it's better not to post this one, and bring up the discussion again sometime before Glasgow. Nightw03:27, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A very large chunk of the Anglosphere disagrees. --Golbez (talk) 12:39, 15 October 2010 (UTD)
I think a large part of the Anglosphere that the games represent would agree that these games represent a lower class of competition than the Olympics and other events that are open to athletes from the world over. Oppose--Johnsemlak (talk) 14:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Procedural Weak Oppose Not that i dont think this should be a headline but the rinderpest article as a rather nasty Expert tag on it and lack significant amount of sources for one its size The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 16:11, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Sounds significant, and I will take it on good faith that the international media is at least treating this with a significant level of interest, in the absence of supporting diffs. Blurb should probably mention it is related to measles. MickMacNee (talk) 16:15, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support for the story, but the article still needs some work doing on it. I'm not too worried about the expert tag, as there is no discussion of which section would cause problems (and the tag dates from 2008, so we're not going to get any from the original tagger). I think a good, sourced update would suffice to remove it. Physchim62(talk)18:32, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you ask me, a two-year-old drive-by tagging is a prime target for removal, but that's not to say the article is perfect. Still, a decent update with some good sources should be enough to dispose of the tag and post this and hopefully the exposure from being on ITN will motivate someone to work on it. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:45, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Anton Abele becomes Swedens youngest ever MP for the parliament. This is not the first time Abele is the focus of european media, he won an MTV Award in 2007 for his work against street violence. He also started a huge facebook group against street violence and gathered 10.000 people for a anti-street violence protest in Stockholm a few weeks after the death of Riccardo Campogiani. He was also mentioned during the Swedish kings annual speech. etc.--BabbaQ (talk) 14:42, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would not personally agree with that, this news is todays biggest news in Sweden. And a historic one as he is the youngest ever MP in the country.--BabbaQ (talk) 15:59, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The UK's first Green MP didn't go up, and the first Australian aboriginial member of their upper house didn't either IIRC, so what's different about this guy? 'todays biggest news in Sweden' is not very pursausive, there are quite a few English speaking nations here, and we obviously can't post all of their top stories of the day on ITN. MickMacNee (talk) 16:10, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By that I guess you mean had it been an "english news story" it would have been perhaps more appropriate to have on ITN. Every news story on ITN cant be about english politicians or people overall och happenings.--BabbaQ (talk) 16:12, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose From the source it appears he wasn't even elected, just appointed to fill a vacant spot. The young man is notable, but this isn't ITN-worthy. Grsz1116:12, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
4 Marines are killed in Helmand Province, Afghanistan when a roadside IED ambushes a convoy. Lance Corporals Joseph Rodewald, 22, Phillip Vinnedge, 19, Victor Dew, 20, and Cpl. Justin Cain, 22. (Orange County Register)
The US government rules out a moratorium on foreclosures. The moratorium would help millions expected to lose their homes, but may also hurt the housing market. (Reuters)(MSNBC)
Chinese PremierWen Jiabao calls for reform of China's political system in the lead-up to a four-day annual policy meeting of Communist Party leaders. (AP via Yahoo!)
Kyrgyzstan elections
Moved from future events by Cargoking with this edit
Amidst the global imbroglio concerning Iran, Mahmoud Ahmedenijad, who is no stranger to cotnroversy, visits Lebanon. botht he united States and israel have reacted adversely to the visit, as well as some sections of Lebanon with others responding very positively (both christian and muslims). Its a 2 days visit and he lands in the next few hours. Lebanon has been filled with controversy and doubts of stability recently which also add to the importance of this. It is not "just another bilateral visit" akin to clinton in bosnia or somethign of the sort. This also follows the 2010 Adaisseh incident. (blurb in the section above)
Weak support. I don't usually like this sort of foreign relations story, as I find visits between countries very routine. However, this particular visit is getting quite a bit of media attention around the world, so that would make makes it ITN-worthy for me if the background material and updated article are there. Physchim62(talk)14:58, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two explosions occur in the southern Yemeni city of Aden, killing one person and injuring several others. The Al-Qaeda offshoot in the country also states its intention to establish a "new army" to overthrow the President. (BBC)(Al Jazeera)(Voice of Russia)
A federal judge has enjoined the Pentagon from kicking gay people out of the military. Although the final word on this matter is probably years away, this is the first time uncloseted gay people can serve in the U.S. military. This is currently the top non-Chilean-miner story in the U.S. media and throws another wrinkle into the upcoming elections. It should go without saying that a lot of readers are interested in this. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:44, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support A civil court granting an injunction against enforcing government policy seems a fairly rare thing to me, and the issue in hand is very widely reported around the world. Physchim62(talk)01:24, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I don't know what will happen down the road; however, I think the nominal significance of overturning don't ask don't tell is worth recognizing. The article could use more than a one sentence update though. Dragons flight (talk) 01:33, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Physchim. And sure, it may get to the Supreme Court, but an appeal by the Justice Department isn't guaranteed. And any potential SCOTUS case would be years from now. ~DCWe Can Work It Out01:49, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Blurb entirely unclear for those who have not been party to the ongoing case as to whether the blind eye will no longer be turned, or the prohibition on homosexuals in the armed forces is to lifted. Kevin McE (talk) 21:15, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Belated support. When this was previously discussed, I assumed that there would be a sizeable gap between the first and last miners being rescued, but at the rate the rescuing is going I'd be up for keeping this posted until the rescue is completed. TFOWR10:58, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm disappointed at the week response here. Amsterdam has just had another confrontation of 800 people, one person ending up in hospital with a fractured skull and a demonstration of 600 in Nijmegen.
There are thousands of squatters in the Netherlands, and they have a long history there. The protests have been featured on mainstream news.BBC NewsAT5MSNBC
So are we now reaching the stage where we trade off one western European head injury against 40 eastern European deaths? It gets mainstream news coverage because there is a TV camera nearby, not because it has any great importance. Kevin McE (talk) 20:36, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not re-add items which are already being discussed under another date. Simply bumping things up isn't going to make people change their mind; in fact it's rather counter-productive. Please continue discussion in the section below. Modest Geniustalk22:32, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Will you drop the bloody stick and leave that horse the hell alone? I've done everything I possibly can for that nomination and simply because it's on ITN/R doesn't mean it magically goes up. There was no consensus last time I looked as to whether to post it now or at the end of the tournament. If you're that bothered about it, go to the talk page and try to drum up some interest like I did. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:20, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't get your point. Mine was a reply to Fox, giving an example how ITNR is not really useful in determining if the item goes up. Nergaal (talk) 02:59, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Since we post so many elections, I thought this one would be of more notability than some of the national ones. Colombia, Germany, India and South Africa got elected. Nergaal (talk) 18:09, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: in the past, I think we've usually posted the election: there are plenty of similar events that happen on January 1, so I'm not sure it's a good idea to overload that date with politics. Physchim62(talk)01:26, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The example cited by Grsz was the worst in the country for about 30 years if memory serves. That's the kind of thing that gives it enhanced notability over just a few deaths. While those deaths are tragic, I tend to think we rely too much on death toll as a measure of significance for incidents that are otherwise insignificant. Simion, is there something notable about his accident other than the number of people killed? If there is, I might support since the article is in reasonable shape. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:23, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be amazed if that were even a remotely true stat, certainly not if we are not pretending that Ukraine did not have a railway system before indepenence. I would say we are closer to the 'worst since the last time' territory here. Domestic news. MickMacNee (talk) 17:07, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but that source also says "Road and railway accidents are common in Ukraine, where the roads are in poor condition, vehicles are poorly maintained, and drivers and passengers routinely disregard safety and traffic rules." I'm standing by my oppose, at least for now. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:54, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Then shouldn't the worst accident in a country with bad routes most certainly be posted? It would be different if we were talking about a couple of casualties. If we routinely saw Ukraine incidents here with a handful, dozen deaths, it would be different, and we could easily reject those. Grsz1118:00, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
HJ Mitchell I don't understand your logic, I'm afraid. I think you meant to justify the posting of the Petarukan train crash by the fact that it was its country's worst accident in thirty years. Surely, the worst train disaster in Ukraine's history (now 19 years), with a similar death toll, merits inclusion by that logic.--Johnsemlak (talk) 18:04, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Having looked in the archive, the only argument offered for posting the Petarukan train collision were variations of 'it was serious', 'worst since 1987', and 'these always get posted'. So, how about we ignore repetition of those types of arguments for this candidate as simply the classic example of a other crap was posted argument, and actually come up with an actual reason as to why a 'serious'/'most deadly since' type of road/rail crash is of significant and widespread enough international interest enough to post on the Main Page. Given the handwringing over this general issue going on on the talk page right now, it seems absurd to give these sorts of incidents the red carpet treatment. And btw, the Romanian crash item was posted with only two poeple arguing for it, one of whom was the nominator, so I think we can strike that as meaning anything. MickMacNee (talk) 18:34, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I objected to the lack of criteria on what makes this kind of deadly incidents notable some time ago. We had a similar accident involving a bus and a train in Slovakia, with 11 casualties, which made it in the ITN, for no other particular reason. So let us finish the discussion on this and come up with some more reliable guidelines. Otherwise, people get frustrated because it seems that geography, ethnicity, religion, and/or other unreasonable criteria contribute to the editorial policy... Crnorizec (talk) 22:07, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weeak Support: as per the above and the criteria that we've had in place so far. Although, I agree that this is not a notable event. Crnorizec (talk) 22:09, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral. In principle I think we have too many of this sort of incident, but we have indeed posted less-serious ones in the past. I agree with Crnorizec that we need better guidelines on such incidents. Modest Geniustalk22:36, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, so the appeal for some new arguments fell on deaf ears. Never mind. We can gloss over why this repeat posting of such tragedies is internationaly significant or worthy of a place on the Main Page I guess, pending a meta discussion. So, for reasons of clarity on this specific nom, has anyone actually cleared up whether it is the worst road accident in Ukraine's history, or the worst rail accident in Ukraine's history, or god forbid, both? Or does it even matter? Of course, being both wouldn't be that surprising, seeing as we seem to be taking the phrase 'Ukraine's history' literally. Where does that stop being a realistic measure btw? Ukraine is one of 12 mostly large states whose history only goes back 19 years, so how often do people really think this sort of stat is going to come up? Does it also have to be above a hard limit of death too? 10 people say? Not to mention the existence of even younger states like Slovakia (which has 3,662 km of railways btw). MickMacNee (talk) 14:04, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Interestingly, the tag on its talk page says A news item involving this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "In the news" column on August 3, 2010. --BorgQueen (talk) 10:48, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The differences are hardly significant to its nearest known relative, different paw pads shape, jaw shape etc. I read it and thought, so what? The only news here is that unsurprisingly, there are still great big unexplored regions of this planet. And I'm sure others will too. Give me the discovery of a whole design of dinosaur anyday over this, save the living animal discoveries for sharks with laser beams attached to their heads. MickMacNee (talk) 14:07, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The first election since the constitutional referendum ad the uprising that overthrew the leadership (forcing the prez into exile in belarus) was won by a party that threatened to roll-back the the referendum and bring him back.Lihaas (talk) 03:29, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wait! It's certainly a notable development, but perhaps it'd be better to wait until they actually vote Bakiyev back in to power. Otunbaeva is still overseeing the government until the Prime Ministry is restored. So instead of posting these results and then posting the election of the PM, I think it's better to just post the latter. Nightw13:07, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Futile Oppose. There's obviously no point, given the bizarre outcome of the recent poll on the talk page, but meh. It simply cannot be logically possible that Wikipedia considers the routine politics of a country like Kyrgyzstan is more worthy of notice to the front page readership than for example the first experimental observation of Hawking radiation, or any other item that just dissappears off this page for lack of affirmative action or even interest, whereas this election ticker stuff is given the red carpet treatment. I bet most readers have never even heard of Kyrgyzstan, let alone pick it out on a map, and anyone who have or could, will certainly know who Stephen Hawking is. MickMacNee (talk) 14:17, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's what confused me. We can expect people to figure out what that is, but geography is apparently more difficult? I would wager more people have heard of Kyrgyzstan than of Hawking radiation. You just said we shouldn't include Kyrgyzstan because 'most people can't even pick it out on the map', but if I went outside right now and asked everyone I saw what they thought of Hawking radiation, they would not know what I was talking about. Same could apply to Kyrgyzstan. Which is why we don't do things here based on the Jaywalking test, we do them based on other factors. So my main complaint was your assertion that, because many people won't know what Kyrgyzstan is, based on that alone we shouldn't post it, when that ran counter to your example of Hawking radiation. You say it cannot be logically possible, I question your logic. --Golbez (talk) 16:41, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(And note that I'm not supporting this, while I would have supported Hawking radiation; however, I took issue with your statement) --Golbez (talk) 16:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My point is more accurately put as: Who has heard of Stephen Hawking/Kyrgyzstan, and who can place Kyrgyzstan on a map/tell you what Hawking radiation is. Two different levels, but both demonstrate the relative differences. MickMacNee (talk) 17:04, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per MM. Considering that now we stopped posting the champion in MotoGP I have no idea why Kyrghistan should be up there. Nergaal (talk) 15:45, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, is that what the world has come to? Some guy riding a motorcycle is more important than a national election? Besides which, nobody has said we're not posting the MotoGP winner, so don't imply otherwise. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support pending a full update. The article looks good so far, and the election resulted in a change of government, hardly 'routine politics'. And Kyrgyzstan is a decent sized country, it's not like this is San Marino.--Johnsemlak (talk) 16:55, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Changes of government through elections is very much an example of routine politics, assuming even that the electoral organisation in this former Soviet republic is not corrupt/incompetent. Changes in government through revolution is non-routine politics. MickMacNee (talk) 17:04, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strongest possible oppose I struck down my oppose and changed it to this. Kyrgyzstan is not a notable country by any measure: 5mil population means is outside top 100; location: Asian steppe; resources: gas only. As for motorcycling, I am going to assume that since I am the only vote yet, that one will probably not get posted before it will get bumped off due to the age of the news. Nergaal (talk) 18:20, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support it's not a city state and central Asia is under-represented in the world's media. Hawking radiation should have been posted too and I'd be OK if this election wasn't on ITN/R. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:15, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support; I don't really see how whether we posted some other articles should influence the decision on this one. (For what it's worth, I'd prefer we had posted Hawking radiation, too.) —Nightstallion08:05, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I'd like to point out that editors slapping random "strongest possible oppose" votes when they unadmittedly don't know anything about this item, and bringing up entirely unrelated items (i.e., Motor racing, Stephen Hawking) to cite as precedents for why this one should not be posted, is unproductive and incredibly juvenile. Get over it.
For the uneducated, this is a remarkable election from a state that has been without a constitutional government for 6 months since a coup d'état that we posted on ITN. That coup has been overturned by a democratic vote—that's not "routine politics" by any definition.
Regardless of any of that, the story is receiving wide international coverage and elections are on WP:ITN/R. So opposing is meaningless, unless there are any special considerations to take into account. In this case, as I said above, what should be considered is whether to post it now, or when a Prime Minister is re-elected. Until then, the interim government is still in power. Nightw09:01, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You do know what the word 'futile' means right? I mean, I may or may not be 'uneducated', but I'm pretty sure I know my words and stuff. It's a protest vote, 'get over it'. MickMacNee (talk) 13:53, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My comment was not directed at you alone. But your "protest vote" was made with obviously no prior knowledge of the item in question—as you blindly argued that this was "routine politics"—and was therefore ill-placed. Nightw14:18, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was aware of it, not least because it is in the nominator's rationale. But the fact of the matter is, we already posted the coup, and this blurb is still a routine election posting, coup or no coup, which is why everybody is invoking ITN/R. MickMacNee (talk) 17:07, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article seems ready and there's plenty of support, plus its ITNR. I'd like that there are significant international repercussions here. Kyrgyzstan hosts a NATO base for operations in Afghanistan. A change of government in Kyrgyzstan will certainly have a bearing on that base's future. --Johnsemlak (talk) 17:18, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This disaster has received little coverage due to the remote location, but unfortunately the aftermath seems to be getting worse. Scanlan (talk) 00:48, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support: acknowledge the importance of the event, reject the mass media criteria of whether there was a TV crew available to film it. Kevin McE (talk) 18:24, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article says the disaster happened on the 6th, which would be much too late to post now even if the article were in good enough shape. It could get on if we had a blurb reflecting a more recent and the article were expanded and updated. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:35, 14 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Indian Army says that nearly 40 militants have been killed by security forces during 25 infiltration attempts in Indian-controlled Kashmir from across the border in the last two months. (China Daily)
Oppose Announcing a Probe is significant but not quite ITN, If it comes back with a significant findings (If it comes back with anything at all) then we might bring it up again. Beurcratic probes happen frequently on all different levels so this is procedure and not surprisingThe Resident Anthropologist (talk) 00:02, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose. The outcome of the investigation might (or might not) change U.S. tactics in hostage rescues, but won't have much of an effect on public policy in general. Physchim62(talk)00:51, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral/weak oppose. While this probably isn't significant enough for ITN, it's not exactly run of the mill, either. There have been public statements from the British PM and foreign secretary and a two-star American general is leading the investigation, so it's clearly being taken seriously on a diplomatic level. Probably notable, but not enough for ITN. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:43, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - the oppose side claims that this not an uncommon scenario. But in fact it is, how many other aid workers in the last 6 months have recieved this extensive coverage not only by english media but by worldwide media. To say oppose on the grouns that its not uncommon what happened to Linda and the aftermath of it is simply not true.--BabbaQ (talk) 20:04, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose she was 83; the article says She had been in poor health since a fall. Nothing surprising, and we've had much bigger names who died without getting on the ITN. Nergaal (talk) 19:44, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Everyone with an article is notable, and I agree we shouldn't post every notable person's death. But this transcends that: she was a leader in her field, an international icon. I'd expect Kiri Te Kanawa's death to be posted; this is no different. TFOWR20:24, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone care to expand (and possibly rewrite) the information on here death? The rest of the article looks like it could do with tidying up, but the two sentences about her death read much like a news release. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:34, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support Look at what Pavarotti said about her etc. And they said this when she was in fine form, so it wasn't just puffery as part of the condolence. per TFOWR, Johnsemlak, physchim YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 00:13, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A Greek policeman was convicted of murder and sentenced to life imprisonment for the shooting of 15-year-old Alexandros Grigoropoulos in Athens that sparked the 2008 Greek riots. [46] I would say it is significant enough for ITN... --BorgQueen (talk) 12:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral. I thought about nominating this when I saw it, because the riots were big (and ITN-featured), but there was something that didn't quite click with me. Is it significant as a follow-up to something that happened two years ago? A policeman convicted of murder seems a bit routine to me – every country has a police force (often several), and no country has found the perfect method to exclude the brutal elements that are attracted by the power they could wield over their fellow citizens (some countries don't bother to try, but that's another story, and it's not Greece). And it seems normal that a policeman who murders, where that can be proven, should be treated the same as any other murderer (i.e., harshly). I'm fine on posting or not, especially as it it getting a respectable amount of coverage, but its only borderline for me as a follow-up story. Physchim62(talk)00:45, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All three articles could do with an update, as well - they all mention the Nobel Prize in the lead, but there's very little else. I'll take a look at Christopher A. Pissarides now, if someone wants to take on one or tweo of the others? TFOWR11:38, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The articles would be in a better shape as soon as possible. The link I've cited above should be the best until other reports with a prose within will be announced.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 11:45, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm also opposed. This is a precursor to SpaceShipTwo, which will take passengers up starting next year and glide from 80,000 feet. That will be news. The Enterprise just went a few thousand feet above commercial jetliners [47]. Not news.--Chaser (talk) 02:21, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. As I've said every time one of these Virgin Galactic items turns up, we should wait for the first suborbital flight (unless there's some disaster). A run-of-the-mill test flight, which breaks no new ground, doesn't cut it. Modest Geniustalk22:49, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The blurb is nice, though "clinched" may be a little POV for the MP. The article is in reasonable shape, but the stuff on this event needs tidying up, sourcing and possibly expanding a little. Also, should we post today or when the tournament ends? And FWiW, more detailed nominations have a better chance of getting up because people understand what's being nominated. Nominators shouldn;t assume that everyone knows what they're talking about. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:43, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Winning is the important part. It is less important when the season ends. Anyways, in championships, the winners are usually awarded the trophy when they clinch it, not at the end of the championship. Nergaal (talk) 03:08, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support posting now - Not sure what the issue is. The championship is won when it is no longer mathematically possible for the championship leader to be overtaken. Waiting till the season ends would be a very odd thing to do, because the news would be old by then... --Daviessimo (talk) 05:35, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Not enough reader interest. In order to keep ITN from becoming a sports ticker, only sports items of widespread reader interest should be posted. Volleyball is not a major spectator sport in any country with a lot of English Wikipedia readers. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:14, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support World Championship of a genuinely international, established, professional sport. Show me where interest to Anglophones features in our criteria. Surely ITN exists to generate reader interest in the articles, not merely to service pre-existent interest. If I already knew all about the event and wanted to look up info on it, I would not access it via the Main page. If all we do is repeat what the vast majority of readers will come across in their mainstream mass media, what is the point of ITN? Kevin McE (talk) 07:13, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Read the first sentence of the criteria: "The In the news (ITN) section on the Main Page serves to showcase articles that have been substantially updated to reflect recent or current events of wide interest to the encyclopaedia's readers." There may be countries where volleyball is a major spectator sport -- I don't know of any, but they may exist. But those countries, if they do exist, don't make up a large enough chunk of the English Wikipedia's readers to meet this criterion. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 15:03, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll admit that I wasn't aware of that: it was changed in January without any prior discussion, and fundamentally changes the thrust of ITN. I'll be raising it at WT:ITN immediately, because it is pointless, IMHO, to have a ITN section that simply mimics the content of mainstream news. Kevin McE (talk) 21:37, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think we need to consider that lack of hype doesn't necessarily mean lack of interest or lack of significance. Volleyball may not be a popular spectator sport to put on ESPN, but it is a very widely played sport globally and in all English-speaking countries. Knowledge of the game and its rules is commonplace. It's not like Cricket or American Football where many en.wiki readers don't even know the sport's rules. Given the prominence of the sport, I think it's reasonable to post the world championship of volleyball, which is played once every four years. That's not too much volleyball for ITN (en. or otherwise). We're discussing posting up to 5 marathons annually on ITN, I think we can post one men's volleyball result every four years. I certainly think this is more significant than say, the no hitter thrown a few days ago, even if it get's less press coverage in certain quarters. So I'll happily post my support, assuming the article is expanded.--Johnsemlak (talk) 20:07, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The article contains next to no prose, neither the nomination nor the article explain the significance of the tournament and we have had a lot of sport on ITN lately, with even more being discussed elsewhere on this page. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:48, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Whole lot more interesting than chess or Aussie football. A widely contested championship (almost everybody has a team, even if they aren't that good). U.S. finished sixth, Australia was one of the 24 competitors, Cameroon advanced to the second round. <---English speakers. Grsz1121:50, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But that's the thing -- the U.S. played in this tournament, yet 99.5 out of 100 Americans probably had no idea it was going on! Volleyball is indeed a major participatory sport, but it is not a major spectator sport, thus relatively few people (in our readership) are interested in it compared to, say, American football, which has far fewer participants but far more fans. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:09, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support considering we posted Aussie football, this should go up as it has more viewership (volleyball is also the most widely played sport at amateur level). Nergaal (talk) 21:56, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But Aussie footy is big down there. Voleyball, to the best of my knowledge, is widely played, but not "big" anywhere. Is there anywhere that it's as big as football is in Europe or American "football", baseball or even ice hockey or basketball are in North America? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:48, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But we post tons of mariginal sports. Where is chess widely popular as a spectator sport? That is the argument now isn't it? Grsz1102:21, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Take a look at the ITNR and you will see that there are plenty of sports with limited notoriety in general. Yes, Gaelic football is big, but who cares outside a few people in Ireland? Being a champion in volleyball is more prestigious than winning the trophy in gaelic football. Nergaal (talk) 03:10, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Kevin, it's ridiculous to say volleyball's world championship might not be of wide interest to WP viewers just because it's not on cable tv in the US. Also, this is the one time in four years that men's volleyball will be featured on ITN. That's hardly overkill for a a pretty major team sport. All this said, the article still needs some expansion.--Johnsemlak (talk) 13:27, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Four people are killed and over 36 injured as violence mars the first phase of 3-tier Panchayat elections across Uttar Pradesh which registered an 80 per cent turnout in India. (Chennai)
The United States fires four missiles in Shewa district about 40 kilometres northeast of the region's main town of Miramshah, North Waziristan, Pakistan, killing seven and destroying two cars, as the country increases its attacks on the tribal area. (BBC)(Dawn)
17 people are killed and 6 are seriously injured after a passenger coach collides with a cement tanker truck between Hefei, capital of the eastern Anhui province, and Nanjing, capital of neighboring Jiangsu province. (SINA)
Liu's wife is reportedly allowed to meet her husband, who is said to have wept and dedicated his Nobel Peace Prize to the "martyrs" of the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989. (BBC)
The Israeli cabinet approves a bill requiring all non-Jews taking Israeli citizenship to swear loyalty to Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state". (Al Jazeera)(Ynet News)
Voters in Kyrgyzstan go to the polls for a parliamentary election amid concerns about a possible renewal of tensions between ethnic groups. With 50 percent of the vote counted, the Ata-Zhurt party has received the most votes so far but no party is close to achieving a majority. (The Guardian)(BBC), (BBC)
Dutch Squatting Ban. The Netherlands has a long history of tolerance. The new minority government which is anti-immigration has illegalised squatting which has caused a lot of chaos here in Amsterdam. Apart from the anarchist riot 1 week ago where people were fighting police, there's been protests everyday of about 1000 people.See Here for daily videos of protests. I think it's newsworthy to add an item to the front page saying like "Unrest continues in Amsterdam after a ban on squatting by a minority coalition of parties including the pro-business VVD and leader of the PPV, Geert Wilders as a means to combat immigration." Genjix (talk) 23:24, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose Weeklong Daily protest of 1000 people? thats Definitely impressive but I am unclear to whether We have an article or What the significance is. I am open to being Swayed but inclincation intially is to oppose.The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 23:40, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose The squatting ban is not an initiative of the upcoming minority government with PVV backing (it is not even installed yet!), it's an initiative of the CDA-Labour-ChristianUnion cabinet. It has nothing to do with tolerance IMO. Squatting was allowed because of housing problems, not because of tolerance. Fentener van Vlissingen (talk) 23:59, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose He is notable, that's why he has an article, but in my view he was not so groundbreakingly significant as to warrant the posting of his death from natural causes. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:31, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
no just commenting that I know of many Grammy winners but none other with 21 kids ;-). it may enhance his notability some but still not enough to get him on ITN IMO--Wikireader41 (talk) 23:44, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Do we really need five marathons a year on ITN? It's not like marathoning is a major spectator sport. We only have one American-football game on ITN a year, and that's probably the second-most-popular spectator sport among English Wikipedia readers behind soccer. This U.S. item isn't even on the front page of Yahoo Sports' U.S. page. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:19, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's getting closer to being postable. I added tables for the top competitors in the field, might still need a bit more prose if anyone else wants to help (I might've given myself arthritis typing out the tables). ~DCWe Can Work It Out04:45, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
'Support'. Marathon running is one of the largest participant sports. It may take place in the US but it is a World Marathon Major, making it a world event.24.16.148.194 (talk) 04:52, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have to admit 5 marathons a year seems like a bit much. IIRC I supported the Boston Marathon earlier this year, but that's the oldest US marathon. The Chicago marathon may be technically equal but I think it isn't as iconic as the NY or Boston marathons.--Johnsemlak (talk) 14:46, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Is there any country where this was considered a big enough event to receive widespread media play, that is, on the front page of at least sports sections of newspapers? -- Mwalcoff (talk) 15:05, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Posted. The article is very respectable and the consensus seems to be weakly in favour of posting. As an aside, how often do we get to discuss a Kenyan and a Russian in a blurb about an event that took place in an American city? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:54, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Broadcaster forced to resign over rude remarks? Seems pretty minor to me, esp since he only had ~100,000 listeners. We didn't feature the Jonathan Ross / Russell Brand affair (IIRC), and that was much bigger. Modest Geniustalk13:51, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support, once the article has been updated (needs to be in the past tense for a start). This blurb has gone through several iterations at Future Events, but I think we should be bolding on the "are dissolved", since it's an article specifically about the event. Modest Geniustalk00:25, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Netherlands Antilles "are" I guess. That's at least the case in Dutch ("De Nederlandse Antillen is" instead of "De Nederlandse Antillen zijn" is horribly wrong) and I think English should mimic that practice. Fentener van Vlissingen (talk) 01:03, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, altho I'm pretty sure it should be "is" dissolved, since it is (or was) a single entity. You don't say "the United States are..." do you? ;) Rennell435 (talk) 07:01, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
State is the term used, but I don't think it really differs in these sense, as "countries" is used when referring to Aruba and Netherlands, and the two new ones will have the same status as the two previous. Grsz1119:55, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Slightly modified. I don't know if that's an official collective term, but I think each island should be mentioned by name. Nightw16:26, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
With regard to the last suggestion: the Netherlands Antilles are plural, so it should be "the Netherlands Antilles are dissolved". This is common practice in English and the only practice in Dutch ("De Nederlandse Antillen worden opgeheven" instead of "De Nederlandse Antillen wordt opgeheven"). Fentener van Vlissingen (talk) 19:16, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, "special municipalities" should link to link to the BES islands, so I suggest the following:
A senior Taliban commander and two other insurgents were killed in a fire fight with Nato and Afghan forces in western Badghis province's Murghab district. (Dawn)
Riot police and dogs clash with protesters as demonstrations lead to violence in England. There are injuries and 5 men are arrested in the country's largest police operation for a quarter of a century (25 years). (BBC)(The Daily Telegraph)
A drill reaches the underground chamber where the 33 trapped miners reside. Wild celebrations occur. Rescue efforts are scheduled to begin within days. (BBC)(Reuters)
More than 200 passengers are rescued, 20 of whom sustain injuries, from Baltic Sea ferry Lisco Gloria, en route from Kiel to Klaipėda, after it ignites near Fehmarn off the eastern coast of Schleswig-Holstein. There are reports of an explosion on board. (BBC)(Deutsche Welle)
International relations
The United States leads a group of non-EU developed countries in attempts to thoroughly revamp the Kyoto Protocol, blocking any possible progress in the climate negotiations currently under way in Tianjin, according to negotiator Sui Wei. (China Daily)
Law and crime
An Ecuadorean court orders the imprisonment of 12 police after last week's 2010 Ecuador crisis, with a lawyer saying they are being swept up in a "witch hunt". (Al Jazeera)
Former Oceanic Bank chief Cecilia Ibru is sentenced to six months in prison after being found guilty of committing 3 of 25 charges of fraud and mismanagement. (BBC)
The United Arab Emirates announces that it will not implement a proposed ban on all BlackBerry services due to go into effect from next year. (CNN)
Premier Wen Jiabao of the People's Republic of China denies reports that China is using its control over minerals crucial to high technology (called "rare-earth") as a bargaining chip, especially in a dispute with Japan over Japan's arrest of a Chinese fishing-boat captain (AP)
MAL Hungarian Aluminium Production and Trade Company, the company responsible for the Ajka alumina plant accident in Hungary, offers $150,000 for local authorities to help deal with the disaster while not admitting fault. (Al Jazeera)(Sky News)
Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Ma Zhaoxu remarks in a press release that the Nobel Peace Prize has been "desecrated" and this event could damage ties between the countries. (Xinhua)
TVNZBreakfast race row: New Zealand issues an apology to India's External Affairs ministry over the "gratuitous and insulting" behaviour of its now suspended broadcaster Paul Henry, who works for the government-owned corporation television network TVNZ. (Bloomberg)
I'm also kind of neutral, but the timer is a nasty colour. One of the crew, Scott Kelly, is going to be joined on the ISS by his twin-brother Mark next February - though that's obviously not an argument for this story right now. I believe that TMA-01M should have docked with the ISS by now, but I'm not seeing any news reports confirming it yet. TFOWR13:53, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article is very weak. Given that the timer is red, I wouldn't be uncomfortable posting this with a strong consensus and a weak update or a strong update and a weak consensus, but we need one or the other and the article is about 4 sentences padded out by pretty pictures and tables. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:42, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I unreservedly oppose the inclusion of any item not meeting our usual standards, no matter how red the timer becomes. I support this item's inclusion if (and only if) the article is significantly expanded. —David Levy19:50, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I too agree we should never reduce our standards just because of the colour of the timer. In fact, the timer probably shouldn't be turning red every time it gets to 25 hours - if our target time is 24, it should turn yellow at 24 and red at, say, 36. Modest Geniustalk20:36, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I prefer MG's suggestion personally, mainly because it says basically the same thing but takes up less space. We've included less intuitive links on ITN in the past, especially for disasters with the "2010 somewhere something" titles. Still, I'm not entirely happy with the "with three astronauts" part. Any suggestions for improvement? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:33, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But Expedition 25 has 6 members, only three of which were on this Soyuz flight. Plus that makes it sound like the name of the launch is Expedition 25, when it is in fact Soyuz TMA-01M. Modest Geniustalk23:03, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
MG's version also has the advantage of not over-dosing on "Soyuz TMA", which is something I tried and failed to do with mine. Agree with MG's comment re: "Expedition 25" - three of the expedition members are already on the ISS. TFOWR23:51, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why do people assume that everybody knows what they're talking about? I gathered this was a sport from the nomination, but had to read the article to learn that it was basketball. No opinion on the item, I don't know enough about basketball to judge, but nominations should explain what the event is and why it's important. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:43, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. two fairly evenly matched teams play one another in a friendly match in some sport: one of the the two teams wins by a fairly close margin, demonstrating the clos-matching of the teams when arranging the friendly game. Where is there an ITN story in this? Physchim62(talk)22:47, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You know what, support. All of the Lakers big names played and no matter how good Barça is, not many would think they could beat the holy Lakers. Grsz1100:17, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, Barça played well didn't they ;) It was a close game, and Barça ended up as the winners. They were playing under NBA rules as well, not the European rules that the Barça players are used to. Had the score been the other way round, it would still have been a close game, but I doubt it would have been nominated as an ITN story. At the end of the day, it's just a pre-season warm-up match for the Lakers, so I find it hard to see why it should appear on the Main Page. Physchim62(talk)01:34, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The relevant article update consists of the addition of the score and such (with absolutely no prose about the events of the game). Even if this was the sporting event of the century, the update doesn't come close to meeting our inclusion criteria. —David Levy01:47, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Well that's a backwards rational. Typically, opinions are based on the merit of the news, and if the article needs attention, it gets done or doesn't and isn't featured. Grsz1103:08, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Backwards? It's the most important factor. The section is intended to showcase articles written or updated to reflect recent/current events, not to report the top news.
Yes, the nature of the recent/current event is important too. In my assessment, this one has just enough merit that a solid article update might have convinced me to support its inclusion. Instead, the article contains almost no mention of the event under discussion. —David Levy06:25, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Out of four editors who have opposed here, only one even commented on the last baseball story. For someone who wears their PoV about this section of the Main Page on their very signature, and has done for months, perhaps you could be a little bit more constructive by, for example, doing simple research before making throw-away accusations. Physchim62(talk)03:21, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Given that we're just coming out of a period where we were refusing decent sports stories because there was too much sport on the template, and where ITN/R itself is under question, I would guess the answer from "us guys" is likely to be "No". The question is about as relevant as "When are you going to change your signature?" (even just to make it conform with English grammar?) Physchim62(talk)03:50, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Three things I learned today: 1) I feel like Liu Xiaobo now, 2) the NBA hasn't done well with their "where ______ happens" ad campaign and, 3) don't bet on a basketball item at ITN until the NBA Finals, but not before an FA's worth of discussion. –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 04:36, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comparing yourself to Liu because people want you to change a signature is a great touch. Seriously, the constant moaning about anti-American "bias" is utterly grating. f o x08:00, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
HTD isn't moaning about anti-American bias, but about his perceived bias against certain sports he likes (I presume), which happen to be American. I have a bit of sympathy with him there. I think basketball does seem to be a hard sell on ITN relative to its global popularity. That said I'll agree that the sig is, well, confusing.Actually I just realized the grammar isn't so bad if you look at it a certain way.--Johnsemlak (talk) 12:16, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The wording of the signature is derived from the NBA's "Where amazing happens" ad campaign, where people, instead of using the word "amazing," replace it with another word, phrase or even a sentence, which has led to plenty of parodies. –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 17:53, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Bad grammar that's been copied from somewhere else is still bad grammar. "Where amazing happens" makes no sense; at the very least it should be "Where amazing things happen", which still isn't very good. Modest Geniustalk18:25, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Did we post the European Supercup? It's a somewhat similar competition--takes place at the start of the season before teams are properly in shape; It's much less prestigious than the titles the teams won to get there; does involve the winners of two titles that were posted in ITN this year (though I disagree with posting the UEFA Cup but whatever.)--Johnsemlak (talk) 06:36, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is expected that one of the rescue bore holes attempting to reach the trapped Chilean miners, will break though in the next few hours, but it sounds like it could be one or more days before the first miner reaches ground level. So what are we going to do here? Post now, or then? Or post now, and then bump? MickMacNee (talk) 17:12, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think that there is three key events which should be reported on. 1. When the bore hole breaks through to the miners. 2. When the first miner reaches the surface and 3. When the last miner reaches the surface. So I believe that we should post at all three, or is that too much? Bjmullan (talk) 17:16, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support bore hole reaching them in itself is not that important IMO ( and would be of no importance unless followed by event #2). we definitely should post this when #2 happens. the happening of 3 would really not be that incredible ( unless of course something goes wrong and only some of the miners are rescued)--Wikireader41 (talk) 17:51, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Until what happens? Read what I wrote, which event are you talking about that won't occur until mid october? As above, do you mean breakthough, first man out, or last man out? MickMacNee (talk) 17:36, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
i think the best would be to post when the last miner comes out. many things can happen from now to that point. and the news may be off ITN by then. we wont be posting it again so its better to post it at the end when every miner is safely out. -- Ashish-g5518:07, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
this will by no doubt be on ITN. its only matter of when to post. if half the miners come out then it would be even more ITN worthy and it should be posted again (if it was already posted... fox example now) and then there will be drama about how it was already posted. so im only saying that its better to post at the end rather than middle. -- Ashish-g5518:16, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
2nd Item Only. The only event in this chain that is of any real significance is when the first miner is freed. The borehole may reach them, but there are many technical details that still lay between the miners and ground level. The capsule they are using is untested and may not work properly, there could be a cave-in at any time which could kill them before they have a chance to ascend to the surface, the borehole may not be adequately cut or sized to allow for the capsule to even be sent below to them, etc. When the first miner breaks the surface it means that the recovery system actually works and now it is only a matter of repetition in order to successfully rescue them all. The appearance of the last miner comes only as a necessary function of the first miner, in that the first miner proves that a rescue is possible and in progress. If something goes drastically wrong during the rescue of the rest of the miners then we can post that, but for now the most important part of this all is the proof of concept. Cwill151 (talk) 18:55, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Report end of rescue process (#3): we should not be putting up items in the knowledge that they will be superceded within hours, we are not a breaking news source; we report the result of events, not their ongoing status. 2nd item is equivalent to "counting starts in election in Nationia" or "Opening goal/run/points scored in World Gameball Championships" Kevin McE (talk) 19:01, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support 2nd item only, with a blurb update for 3rd item. Of course we have to wait for it to happen and article updates to be made, but the event itself will certainly be notable. Modest Geniustalk19:04, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support when they reach the miners. It was expected to be Christmas before that happened, so the rapid progress is notable imho. We should bump it or post it again either when they start lifting the miners out or when they're all out, but not both unless there are unforeseen complications. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:53, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The rescue of the miners is expacetd to take at least 36 hours but (assuming no catastrophes) no longer than 48 hours. I suggest we post when we have a reliable update (I'd like three independant sources from at least two countries on this one, because I think we'll get them easily and because there is a risk of rumour) on the article that says the first miner has been pulled up. When the last person comes out of the mine, the story will still be on the template, so we just update it. Physchim62(talk)22:53, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To make things as clear as they can be in this (very necessary) discussion: I oppose a news story for when the latest drill reaches the miners, because it will be the sixth time that has happened in a couple of months, assuming I'm not making an error of calculation. We posted the story when the miners were found, we will post the story when they come out, but I don't think we need all the intermediate stages. Physchim62(talk)23:07, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To give you an idea of the problem, I'm looking at the websites of three Spanish newspapers (the one's I usually use for Spanish language stuff). One says the "breakthrough" has already happened, the other two say the drill is still 40 metres away; two sites say the rescue will start on Tuesday, the other site says 3–8 days from now; if I look at El Mercurio, Chile's paper-of-record according to a well-known online encyclopedia, I find no information at all on their front page (suggesting that nothing significant is happening). Whatever we choose to do, we should be conservative in our approach, I feel. Physchim62(talk)02:19, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you Physchim62. Not only El Mercurio isn't showing anything interesting about the miners' rescue, the television channels and radios aren't either. Just that the B plan was resumed according to Canal 13's Teletrece, and that some artists are preparing concerts in benefit of the miners. Nothing else. Want ITN? Wait until they're all back in the surface. --Diego Grez (talk) 03:00, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to the BBC, they've reached the miners, but it expects it to be Tuesday at the earliest before they can realistically expect to start lifting the miners out. How reliable the Beeb's information is, I don't know. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:33, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support #2 (the first miner's rescue), with revision (and possibly a bump) when #3 (the last miner's rescue) occurs. I also support the inclusion of an item (or the existing item's revision, if applicable) if a catastrophe occurs at any point. All of this assumes that the article is appropriately updated, of course. —David Levy20:05, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Mutter mutter grumble... I tried to add some detail, but edit-conflicted with "another editor". Fortunately, their update was much better than mine ;-) Support, obviously. TFOWR09:20, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Could someone please change "...wins the Nobel Peace Prize" to "...is awarded the Nobel Peace Prize"? Its an award, not an achievement. —bender235 (talk) 15:16, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Six gangsters died and one soldier was injured when an army patrol clashed with suspected gang members in northeastern Mexico state Tamaulipas. (People Daily)
At least 5 people are killed due to back-to-back afternoon bombings at a vegetable market south of Baghdad. In Iskandariyah, about 30 miles (50 kilometers) south of Baghdad, also wounded at least 20 people. (AP)
An airstrike and a raid by ground troops kills 8 insurgents, including a senior Taliban leader who spearheaded attacks against Afghan security forces. (Boston Herald)
A woman was killed and 25 others were injured when the tractor-trolley they were travelling in overturned in Kashipur town of Udhamsingh Nagar district. (DNA)
Kenyan authorities announce that more than 1,000 teachers have been fired for sexually abusing girls over a 2-year period. (BBC)
Right-wing Israeli politicians push for a controversial change to the wording of the oath required to become an Israeli citizen, amending the wording so that potential citizens must promise to respect Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state". (BBC)
China issues new regulations requiring the managers of mines to accompany workers down the shafts. (BBC)(RTHK)
Zimbabwean Prime Minister Morgan Tsvangirai charges his President Robert Mugabe with violating the constitution and unilateral decision-making. Mugabe and his party fail to respond in public. (BBC)
This has implications for Croatia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Moldova and the Ukraine. We posted every significant development of the ongoing American oil spill, so why not this? Especially as it's been dumped off the Main Page so quickly due to all those Nobel Prizes, which frankly could have all been stickied rather than taking up half the template for a week. MickMacNee (talk) 02:38, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wait. If it has serious implications, it's a no-brainer, but that's not clear at the moment. Dead fish seem to be the current sign, given conflicting sources, and the contamination in the Danube is not at the "dead-fish" level. Physchim62(talk)03:22, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support it's an important development (though we didn't post all the developments of the BP Oil spill, considering that we didn't post when it was capped). Also, I like the idea that the Nobel prizes should be stickied or something, we should discuss it for next year. ~DCWe Can Work It Out03:26, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wait this is an inevitable outcome of the spill, I foresee a lot of ramifications from this over the next few months. This does not strike me to as the most important development to put in ITN when the rammifcations of it being in the river is not fully felt yet The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 13:08, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Could I ask for a citation that shows that 'tons' of ancient (1500 years or older) of artifacts valued in the millions of dollars are sold every day?--Johnsemlak (talk) 20:44, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
a large amount at public auction to be sure, but not really the extremely notable. I would of supported the discovery as an amazing find but that it sold for a high price? no not ITN worthy. Look up Artifacts and Art autction you'll see tons of Looters selling priceless artifacts and that not even metioning the black market for these things.The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 20:55, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think that it is an incredible price considering that its estimate was £200-300,000. In the same sale, the only object with a higher estimate than the helmet only fetched £277,250. The helmet is not only notable because of the price it fetched, but because 1) it was found by a metal detector (who is now a millionaire), and 2) it falls outside the scope of the 1996 Treasure Act which has caused a good deal of disquiet. The finding of the helmet, the public appeal to raise money to purchase it by a local museum, and today's sale have all been widely covered by the British media. BabelStone (talk) 21:03, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Legal sales of such artefacts are rare, and so a high price is not surprising. The fact that it exceeded the estimate is also not noteworthy, as there is such as small legal market against which to make an estimate. This is not the "culture" story we should be looking for. Physchim62(talk)21:33, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sales or finds? The latter are obviously rarer. I'd prefer a find on ITN to a sale for this sort of artwork (I think we can qualify it as that). Physchim62(talk)03:28, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The article is excellent, and as a curator of the British Museum said, it was "a find of the greatest national (and, indeed, international) significance." Everything about this item screams ITN worthiness. If anybody knows of someone who is supposedly selling this sort of item from the back of his van a few times a month, then by all means, give me his telephone number. MickMacNee (talk) 02:47, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Does anybody have any more input? I'm considering posting this because nobody has (yet) raised an argument that would torpedo this nomination altogether, but I'll leave it for a while to see if anyone else wants to weigh in. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 04:08, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
<irony>Oppose as this was obviously posted in violation of the sacrosanct Process, and contributors to this page had no chance to assess the quality of this "featured article"!</irony> Only kidding, Support, acceptable IAR in the circumstances, and certainly no harm done. Physchim62(talk)13:50, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is a very important development for one of the only 3 countries in the world which possess a nuclear triad. The Bulava is the most expensive[49] and high-profile weapons project in Russia. It has been plaqued with several failures, and the tests were put on hold for almost a year until now. The New START treaty has been in worldwide headlines recently - the Bulava program is important in this respect as well. Furthermore, it's the first successful launch in 2 years, and a very high-profile event because another failure would have had dire consequences for the program. Offliner (talk) 11:24, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Per nominator's explanation this is an important event with respect to the global security strategy game. __meco (talk) 13:01, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hungary expects to take at least a year and tens of millions of dollars to clean up what the country's environment minister describes as its worst chemical accident. (BBC)
Hungary opens a criminal investigation into the incident. (The Telegraph)
China's climate negotiatorXie Zhenhua states that the country's voluntary efforts supported by its own resources and technologies only accept "non-invasive" international consultation and analysis at the UNFCCC meeting in Tianjin, China. (China Daily)
OK, I know I'm going to sound like a total hypocrite after opposing the Liverpool item on the grounds we've had too much sports lately, but -- Roy Halladay has just thrown the second postseason no-hitter in baseball history, holding the Cincinnati Reds hitless in the first game of the 2010 National League Division Series. This is currently the No. 2 overall news story (not sports news) on the AP wire at Yahoo News and is on the top of cnn.com, nytimes.com, msnbc.com, usatoday.com, Canada's globeandmail.com, The Wall Street Journal's website, etc. We can be sure there will be updates to the NLDS article soon. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:16, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, the NYTimes article alone mentions many other instances of no-hitters/perfect games, which makes it sound fairly common and unextraordinary. The circumstances seem unusual, but not the act, and I don't think the one makes up for the other. I'm a bad American, I don't follow baseball closely, so if someone with more knowledge of this makes a compelling case for posting it, I'd be happy to reconsider. C628 (talk) 00:33, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose No-hitters are not uncommon and are less of an achievement than perfect games. As said above, the only thing that is suggested to make this no-hitter ITN-worthy is the circumstance of it being in a post-season game. I don't think that circumstances makes it sufficiently significant for ITN.--Mkativerata (talk) 00:41, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Re: C628 -- it depends on what you mean by "fairly common and unextraordinary." There are 2,430 regular-season MLB games a year and usually only a couple of no-hitters (there were a bunch this year for some reason). So it's among the rarest feats in sports -- certainly not as rare as a perfect game, which on average happens about once every six years, but quite rare nonetheless. The chances of a no-hitter in the playoffs are very, very small, considering not only the short duration of the postseason (24-41 games) but the fact that the all of the teams are quite good and therefore hard to keep hitless. That's why this has only happened once before (in 1956). -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:18, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, largely per Mkativerata and C628, but also because we have and have had a lot of sport on ITN recently and most of those items seem (to an Englishman who knows nothing about baseball and wants to keep it that way!) like greater achievements than an achievement in a single game that's more notable because it happened to occur in that game. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:59, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As soon as I saw this story in the news, I came directly here, expecting someone to explain the importance of this achievement (even though it's not the biggest pitching achievement in baseball) and make an ill-fated nomination for this to be added on ITN. I even expected that the very person nominating it would be none other than Mwalcoff. Sir, you do not disappoint. -- tariqabjotu02:09, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
pointless support it has no chance at being posted, but probably should've been considering how many cricket records have been posted this year. The old DC might make more of an effort to defend this one, but honestly I don't feel like tilting at windmills. ~DCWe Can Work It Out04:35, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, there were only two. Tendulkar becoming the first to make 200 in a single game, and Murali's 800 WR. The reason Murali's 800 was there was because he decided to retire, and his 800 tally coincided. He was already the WR-holder and that was posted in 2007. Tendulkar broke the incumbent run-tally in 2008 and that was posted. Tendulkar is extending his world record all the time, and it won't be broken for at least 10 years, if at all. His 200 may be surpassed, but since it is only relevant to a match, 210 etc probably won't be posted and nobody will ever get to 300 in one game. Murali's 800 won't be passed soon if at all; the highest current player has about 350, and he took 12 years to get 350. All this American reject stuff was because of some nom of seomthing that was not a world record; Mwalcoff even thought the 6/7th dude to achieve some 600/700 homers or something should be posted. It's just that two prolific accumulators in cricket are both around at the same time, and they've already gone past everything, and nothing will go past them for ten years either... YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 06:53, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose--No hitters aren't really that uncommon, (there have been six MLB nohitters this year) and the fact that it was in an early playoff game doesn't make it that much more significant. --Johnsemlak (talk) 13:34, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with this is that... it is the second time it has been done. Who would really care if somebody else than Bolt would become the second person to run 100m in under 9.7 seconds? Not really many, because he is the second one to do so. Nergaal (talk) 08:19, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, why not. A new language is an encyclopaedic thing and I don't remember ever having anything like this on ITN. --Tone15:27, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I gather (The USA Today ref, and others) that it was discovered in 2008, but only announced yesterday. Article is in good shape, and this is exactly what I like to see on ITN. TFOWR15:52, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I thought about nominating this yesterday, when I saw it on the BBC, but I didn't have enough material to provide background in the article. Now that other have found that material, I think this is a good ITN story. Physchim62(talk)16:33, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The discovery is what counts.. If we found a town in this country with 800-1200 people living it in and the census had missed it in all these years beleive me we could not shut up about it for years The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 20:42, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
the discovery is what counts. when was the last time a new language was discovered ?? trust me it is a lot less common than election of a mayor in a town of 800-1200. we regularly post "newly" discovered dinosaurs also if you haven't noticed.--Wikireader41 (talk) 03:07, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
India may seem back woods to us western folk but its not exactly unmapped wilderness, The fact that in this day an age a whole langauge could go unnoticed by generation of western (and more eastern trained recently) Anthropologist is really shocking. We might expect such an event in a place like Rural new guinea, the deep amazon, or even in Africa but a well devolped country like india? ItsThe Resident Anthropologist (talk) 03:13, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Red Sox owners buy Liverpool FC
ESPN, BBC. New England Sports Ventures, owners of the Boston Red Sox, are to buy the 5-time European champion football club Liverpool F.C.. If this happens (I"m not sure if there's a chance the deal won't go through; reports indicate it will happen, but apparently the current Liverpool owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett plan to resist.) This comes after weeks of very high profile press coverage of Liverpool's problems on and off the field. It's arguably the most famous English football club in the world being bought by the second most famous US baseball club. The story is getting press on both sides of the Atlantic and I'm sure elsewhere. Some people will say sports clubs get bought all the time but this isn't any football club, and it marks a very surprising and dramatic climax to a long-running struggle over the club.--Johnsemlak (talk) 14:41, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You know, I considered nominating this myself, but I didn't because it's not official. I do think it's ITN-worthy though, considering the value of the businesses here. ~DCWe Can Work It Out14:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly worthy of consideration given the iconic value of both businesses involved: we posted the Cadbury takeover on the basis of the iconic value of the company in the UK more than on the (admittedly large) cash value of the deal. I'd prefer to see something official, and I guess we're going to get that pretty quick, as the FA wants to complete things by Friday and there is a big bank deadline for the Friday after that (15 October). Physchim62(talk)15:48, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For me a significant factor is the surprise of the development; I don't think any of the news media saw a takeover like this coming; I agree we need to hold on it until it's official, or 100% definite.--Johnsemlak (talk) 15:53, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If this is significant enough to post (I'm ambivalent), I'd advise waiting until it's done and dusted - there's still some interesting legal hurdles to clear over the next ten days before they're going to be able to buy it. Are "cross-sport" ownerships like this unusual, out of interest? That might be worth noting, if so. Shimgray | talk | 19:14, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As said above, what makes this instance ITN-worthy is the intrinsic value of both the Red Sox (one of the most popular teams in America) and Liverpool (one of the most popular soccer clubs in the world). And Forbes values both clubs at over $800 million (Boston is the second highest valued baseball team, Liverpool is sixth in the world). Plus, there's been plenty of news coverage of the proposed deal. ~DCWe Can Work It Out20:03, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Although I certainly understand the reasons for the nomination, we've simply had too much sports on lately for an iffy item like this to get my support now. Anyway, this isn't a new phenomenon: The owner of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers bought Manchester United; the owner of the Denver Nuggets is the biggest owner of Arsenal; the owner of the Cleveland Browns bought Aston Villa; and Gillett used to own the Montreal Canadiens. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:41, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If I could make another pitch on the significance here--I certainly agree that the this is far from the first time that Americans (or anyone outside the UK) have acquired an EPL football club. But the key is that the takeover is happening right at a moment when Liverpool are at historic low point in their history. Aside from massive debts that threaten the future of the club (which supposedly will be erased by the proposed takeover) and bankruptcy a real possibility, Liverpool are now in the relegation zone and just last week suffered an embarrassing home loss to EPL newcomer Blackpool. If this goes through it has the potential to rescue Britain's most iconic club from disaster. (admittedly we can't speculate, but the bit about erasing LFC's debt should be definite). And just in case there's suspicion I am not a Liverpool supporter. All of that aside, we probably need to wait on this one in any event.--Johnsemlak (talk) 13:50, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To amplify the last point, the sale is conditional on a declaratory judgement in the High Court on the legality of the sale agreement, which is expected late next week. There is also likely to be an appeal against the judgement (whichever way it goes), so that will add a few more days onto the delay. We should wait until everything is sorted out legally before posting. Physchim62(talk)13:57, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support the articles of the three winners already all mention that they won the prize, and what some of their palladium-related works are. Thue | talk10:20, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Five sentences would "seal the deal" for me. I had a quick look just now, and the latter two articles only mentioned a win: they didn't mention that it was a joint award. It's maybe too early for feedback from peers etc, but if there's anything like that that's exactly what I'd like to see - responses from colleagues, etc. I suspect we could get away with less than five sentences, but I do feel more is needed. TFOWR10:30, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I feel that perfect is the enemy of the good here. The most important thing here is that ITN is showing the important news; ITN missing that is worse than people being linked to a slightly short article. As long as the article is not actively misleading, then I say post it; it will be filled in soon enough. Thue | talk10:38, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"palladium-catalyzed cross coupling reactions" is probably a bit technical for the main page ;) but each chemist has a reaction named after him which is linked from the start of the biography pages (the reaction pages are in a much better state than the bios, don't worry), so I think we have our minimum requirement of a bit of background information to the news story. Physchim62(talk)11:06, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Because we add entries, not replace. We would only replace an entry with an update about said entry. The individual Nobel Prizes are different entries. --Golbez (talk) 15:03, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note it is worrying to me that Nobel prize awards are featured in the ITN template for only 24h. I understand that there are a lot of news, but seriously, Nobel prizes should deserve a bit more... respect?! Nergaal (talk) 20:54, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not exactly. It was added here and removed here (less than two days, admittedly), but in the interim it was removed temporarily and then reinstated here. I gather there was a bit of controversy surrounding the article. TFOWR18:19, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At least 3 people are killed and 9 others receive wounds during a bomb explosion at an apartment complex in the suburbs of Bangkok. (BBC), (ABC Online)
A linkmen working for the banned ULFA is killed, while 2 other cadres reportedly escape with their lives in an encounter in Meghalaya's West Garo Hills district. (PTI)
Breakfast broadcaster Paul Henry is suspended effective immediately by TVNZ after yesterday's controversial interview with John Key. The network had previously issued a statement in support of Henry. (The New Zealand Herald)
Steven Hayes is found guilty of murdering three women of the same family in Connecticut during a home invasion in 2007, now he is facing the death sentence or life imprisonment.(Fox News)
UK Prime Minister David Cameron is forced to issue an apology to his own voters after breaking an election promise by withdrawing child benefit from 1.2 million of them. (The Guardian)
Sudan announces its timetable for January's referendum on independence for the south, with 14 November named as the first date for voter registration. (BBC)(AFP via The Sydney Morning Herald)
Support. An international incident, plus a notable sentence as he could have been convicted of treason which carries the death penalty... Cwill151 (talk) 16:51, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support. The story certainly doesn't fill me with enthusiasm that it must be on the Main Page, but I can't see any reason to forcefully oppose either. It still seems a bit run-of-the-mill: terrorist given stiff sentence because of terrorist act... Physchim62(talk)20:12, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Our article says: "Until the discovery of fraud perpetrated by Bernard Madoff, it was reported to be the largest fraud in banking history." It should certainly be significant enough for ITN then. --BorgQueen (talk) 13:33, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's OK, though - he's going to pay it back. It'll take him 120,000 years on his current salary. With interest at 0.65% per annum, he needs to pay €87,000per day. Oh, and support. Interesting case: plenty of commentators are pointing out that he was making a profit until Société Générale got scared and "an inexperienced trader" unwound Kerviel's positions. TFOWR15:06, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I'm not sure we should call it "fraud", and certainly not on the Main Page. Also, SG has said it won't be claiming damages. BLP nightmare, but if someone want's to take it on I shaln't stop them ;) Physchim62(talk)15:10, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've done a bit, and a few other editors too. The relevant paragraph now seems to cover all the pertinent parts - convicted, sentenced, intent to appeal, and sentence suspended pending appeal. Obviously it wouldn't hurt if other eyes glanced over it, though. TFOWR17:30, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. There's a little bit more that can still be added based on the reports that we have (I'm working on it ;) but not much. The accident is notable because it's the kind of thing that could (potentially) happen in a lot of places around the world – there's nothing particularly special about the alumina factory at Ajka, except that its waste pond burst, and there are hundreds (if not thousands) like it. Physchim62(talk)14:26, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's a conspiracy don't ya know... next were going to ask for the Thirteen Colonies and the Louisiana Territory back – in the state that we left them! Physchim62(talk)16:12, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BBC Last survivor of the music halls, associated with Charlie Chaplin (Chaplin's favourite clown and "If anyone's going to replace me - it's Norman Wisdom" said Chaplin) and a national hero after visiting Albania as his films were allowed there. His website crashed as news of his death broke - The Guardian "Second only to Charlie Chaplin as one of the most consistently successful British screen comics of the 20th century, he will be remembered as one of the heroes of the country’s film industry." Also stalked by children who recognised him when he went to Iran so is internationally recognisable. The Daily Telegraph. --candle•wicke01:12, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. End of the era of slapstick and one of the best at it. Dead got headline coverage on the BBC network and is still top story in their entertainment section. A hero of Chaplin and also Albania! Star of film, Broadway and television he was also given the OBE and knighted.
Fixed typos, but I don't think we usually use the "Sir" of knighthoods on ITN (it's there on the article, of course), because it gets a bit difficult with all the different hnorific styles. Physchim62(talk)23:33, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I can't really use the term "Internationally reknowned." While it has a factual basis, it will probably draw complaints since it soundspeacock-y, and I don't want to get involved in arguments at WP:ERRORS. We can just state the plain fact that he was a cult figure in Albania. --BorgQueen (talk) 23:53, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I meant to explain that but I was cut off by an edit conflict: the phrase an link were/are meant to be a bit tongue-in-cheek, as befits the subject of the story: he was notoriously well-known in Albania, and in Iran, where you wouldn't expect a British comedian to be known at all, but also we only tend to post obituaries of "internationally reknowned" people anyway. I've no problems if the phrase is removed, but I'm willing to playfully fight for it on WP:ERRORS if needed. Physchim62(talk)00:03, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
12 people die and 7 others receive wounds during a torch attack in Rawalpindi, Pakistan, on a convoy of more than a dozen oil tankers intended for NATO forces in Afghanistan. This follows a dispute over a NATO helicopter strike that killed 3 soldiers in Pakistan territory. (AFP via The Age)(The New York Times), (BBC)
Breakfast tech commentator Ben Gracewood quits after describing Henry's comments as "the final straw" and saying "I can't work with him". (The New Zealand Herald)
Jonathan Evans, head of Britain's MI5, gives a rare interview, disclosing details of his love for classics and calling for wider availability of Latin and Greek in schools as, he claims, they are useful for spies. (The Daily Telegraph)
The Greek government announces additional harsher austerity measures in its 2011 draft budget. (BBC)
Visa and MasterCard agreed to settle an antitrust lawsuit brought by the U.S. Department of Justice and the attorneys-general of seven states. They agreed to allow their participating merchants to steer customers toward lower-cost options. American Express will fight rather than agree to the terms, it said. (NPR)
Disasters and accidents
Indonesian Coordinating Minister for Public Welfare Affairs Agung Laksono said here on Tuesday that the massive flood in Wasior, West Papua that continuously occurred from Sunday to Monday has claimed 56 lives. (Xinhua)
3 people were killed and 5 were injured after a boiler exploded in a tannery in Hatay in the Dericiler area of Güzelburç town. The injured were taken to Mustafa Kemal University’s faculty of medicine hospital. (Today's Zaman)
An angry stand-off results from a row over the ongoing presence of dozens of United States military bases on the Japanese island of Okinawa, all of which remain through intense U.S. pressure despite protests from tens of thousands of residents. (BBC)
Federal Minister of the InteriorThomas de Maizière tells a news conference in Berlin that there is no concrete evidence of an imminent attack and "no reason to be alarmist at this time"; the Japanese government alerts its citizens to watch out for any attacks in Europe. The United States and UK have both done so in recent times. (BBC)
Israel decides to deport 1976 Nobel Peace Prize laureate Mairead Maguire, whom it has kept locked up in a detention facility since last Tuesday when she arrived to attend a conference with 5 other Nobel peace laureates. An Israeli court orders her to keep "her propaganda to herself". Israel claims it has banned her from entering its land but she says she is unaware of such a ban. (The Irish Times)(BBC)(Haaretz)
Syria issues arrest warrants for more than 30 people accused of misleading an investigation into the 2005 assassination of Lebanon's former prime minister Rafic Hariri. (Al Jazeera)
A court in Thailand rejects a request to drop charges against Viktor Bout, whom the United States suspects of attempting to sell weapons to its opponents. He was arrested by undercover United States agents in 2008 at a Bangkok hotel. (BBC)(Xinhua)
A vigil is held by Rutgers University in the United States for Tyler Clementi, who committed suicide after a roommate and another student secretly streamed online a private sexual encounter he had with a man. (AP via The Age)
The first Census of Marine Life (CoML), a 10-year major international project described as the most comprehensive study of its kind, is completed, sparking celebration among scientists. (BBC), (AFP via Google News)
BBC - "Fifa has suspended Nigeria from international competition because of government interference in the sport ... several members of the Nigeria Football Federation (NFF) were hauled before the law courts". --candle•wicke22:24, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's pretty damn ironic, since the whole controversy erupted when FIFA objected to Nigeria banning their own team after a poor world cup performance... story from July. So the punishment for illegally banning the team, is to ban the team legally. Nice. Oh and support, since it's a long time since FIFA has banned anyone (Yugoslavia may have been the last instance?).Modest Geniustalk23:18, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are also several Nobel Prizes and elections along with whatever else happens so it should be possible to separate similar events on the template? --candle•wicke00:23, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Actually, MG, it happens quite often. Kenya, Iraq and Iran have all been suspended recently, and France came close too. Too much sport and too inconequential for the main page. If this were, say, World champions Spain, I would then support. Strange Passerby (talk • c • status) 00:32, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support now because we have four sports items and should drop at least one. In the absence of a better option, I think posting this now is OK. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:01, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose posting now. If we have four sports stories, it's because we posted too many sports stories, despite knowing all weekend that we would have loads of sports stories. But you don't correct short-sightedness with more short-sightedness. Physchim62(talk)02:11, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, second largest sporting event this week in international terms, as indicated by WP hits before the weekend and various press comments. I would suggest adding "south Wales" to the blurb, as this is the first time the tournement has been held at Celtic Manor and casual readers may well not recognize the name. Physchim62(talk)15:46, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No need to support, on WP:ITNR. Article needs some prose adding though, since there's one sentence on the result and one sentence on the final day's play (merely noting the one day delay). I prefer DC's blurb. Modest Geniustalk18:13, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nobel prizes
I believe that we normally feature the Nobel prize winners, so here goes the first one:
We said that he won the prize. What more is there to update; nothing more has happened? The information about his contribution to in vitro fertilisation was already in the article. Thue | talk10:22, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How about a quotation from the Nobel citation? There should be some reaction from other scientists in the various media reports that could be used. I'd normally suggest a reaction quote from the man himself, but unfortunately it seems he's too ill to speak to the media [53]Modest Geniustalk11:09, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, provided that at the moment the only news is that he won the prize and the update is there, posting. Reactions will come a little later - it takes some time to call his colleagues and ask them for comments. --Tone12:00, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That update is a joke. Since when do we post one-line updates? According to Wikipedia:ITN#Updated_content "a five sentence update (with at minimum three references, not counting duplicates) has generally been considered more than sufficient, while a one sentence update is considered extremely questionable" ~DCWe Can Work It Out15:09, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Candidates for ITN are evaluated on two main grounds: the quality of the updated content and the significance of the developments described in the updated content. In many cases, qualities in one area can make up for deficiencies in another. For example, a highly significant event, such as the discovery of a cure for cancer, may have a sub-par update associated with it, but be posted anyway with the assumption that other editors will soon join in and improve the article." This is not like cure for cancer but similar. Our article says 4 million kids were born by his method. I dont know of anyone else who has 'fathered' so many. too bad steptoe is dead and cant get the prize.--Wikireader41 (talk) 15:17, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the news here is he won the prize. What could possibly be added would be the argumentation, but the whole article is about his work so this would be just duplication. The thing is, there will be a prize awarded every day now so if there are some other suggestions on how updates should look like in these cases, let me know. --Tone15:40, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's long-standing practice here to not post items, whatever the newsworthiness, without a suitable update. The purpose of WP:ITN is to showcase articles that have been substantially updated to reflect recent or current events of wide interest to the encyclopaedia's readers. It's reasonable to ask for the post to be removed if the article can't be updated. A Nobel prize is clearly notable enough for ITN but the update is still required. Frankly the article on Edwards isn't all that great.--Johnsemlak (talk) 15:52, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) We have these arguments every bloody year about the Nobel Prizes: I support Tone on this one. The article is updated, end of story; blindly suggesting we have to have a minimum of five sentences and three references even when such an update would be inappropriate in the circumstances is to suggest that we only exist for continuing a given WikiProcess, rather than for the benefit of the encyclopedia as a whole. It is the road that the LHS of the Main Page has gone down, and there's no reason to repeat in on the (more-viewed) RHS. If you want to add encyclopedic information to the article, there's an "Edit" tag there for that; but be careful of undue weight of discussion of the Nobel Prize over discussion of the circumstances of the discovery for which the person became notable. Physchim62(talk)15:54, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The same topic seems to come up a lot for awards. I think we need to change the definition of update for awards specifically since the only thing that changes is the fact that the award was given. Not a lot can be written for that. As long as award itself is mentioned in the article with reference then it should be good enough. It is the person and/or their work that is being featured and if those articles are in good condition then there should be no problem. This goes for nobel prizes, movie awards etc. IMO -- Ashish-g5516:20, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just to clarify my comment I am totally in agreement with Tone here. When the prize is Nobel even a single sentence update should do IMO. In most cases we do have an article on the winner already and putting it on MP can hopefully attract more editors to make it even better. These guys have waited long enough lets not make them wait any longer. As a side this was a major breakthrough (even by Nobel standards) which has helped millions of infertile women around the globe in a very direct and noticeable way.--Wikireader41 (talk) 17:46, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is only a single sentence of update with one reference, and I find that a major problem. Yada yada yada it will be updated after it goes up, but that's not the point of ITN, which is (as stated on WP:ITN): "The In the news (ITN) section on the Main Page serves to showcase articles that have been substantially updated to reflect recent or current events of wide interest to the encyclopaedia's readers." This article has not been substantially updated, and I am heavily tempted to remove it from the template right now. Single sentence updates are unacceptable in any circumstance, not matter how major something is. Oh, pardon me, I see there's 2 sentences of update now, one in the intro, and a bullet point in Honors. That's still insufficient. SpencerT♦C23:41, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't say the temporary removal was done "unlaterally" [sic], DC and BorgQueen wanted more content, and Modest supported removal. SpencerT♦C02:55, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And as to the conjecture that articles are updated once they're on ITN, I cannot say Edwards' article has received any substantial prose since being added to ITN [54]. SpencerT♦C23:45, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Agreed. OK the HUGE status of the award means we can get away with sub-standard articles (technically Edwards' failed BLP when it was posted, with four entirely unreferenced sections...) and less-comprehensive updates, but one sentence is hardly enough. TONS of material is written on the Prize as soon as it is announced; it can't be that hard to find a couple of quotes. I'm thinking of something along the lines of the updates I made to Stanislav Smirnov when he won the Fields Medal. Modest Geniustalk23:48, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I'm removing now, with the full support of posting once there is at least something besides 2 sentences essentially saying the same thing. SpencerT♦C23:51, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's much better; I think it can go back up. Thanks Candlewicke (and the Vatican, which has ironically done something useful for once, albeit at the same time as something stupid) Modest Geniustalk00:44, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, there is minimum update in the article, so, how much more do we need? I seriously doubt we'll hear comments from Vatican on this one ;-) --Tone10:54, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I added some early reactions from Geim, I couldn't find much from Novoselov at the moment, since one article has update now, posting. --Tone11:03, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Too late. There are several problems here - most importantly the awards ceremony was on 30 Sept (older than the current bottom item). There's also no prose update (just items in a list), and hilarious as they always are, I'm not sure we should be posting them anyway. Modest Geniustalk10:05, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you're right. I just tried to use the results site[56], but it looks complicated... There is no summary data structured like in the result tables on our page... Crnorizec (talk) 00:12, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In a second audio recording in 24 hours, Al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden says Muslim nations haven't done enough to support relief efforts in flood-hit Pakistan. (timesnow.tv)
Archaeologists digging at a site on the Egypt-Gaza border unearth parts of a possible hidden city which they believe is more than 2,000 years old. They encounter difficulties while excavating due to the blockade of Gaza. (Al Jazeera)
International cultural experts attack the Italian government's policy of tolerating oversized advertisements on historic Venetian sights as being "probably illegal". They say it violates the city's UNESCO ranking as a World Heritage Site. (The Observer)
Six people were killed and five injured Sunday after a wall of a factory building under construction collapsed in east China's Shandong Province. (Sina)
Five people were killed and four others were injured in a colliery explosion in southwest China's Guizhou Province. The accident was reported at Huanghegou pit in Xixiu District of Anshun City. (China Daily)
Rain-triggered floods killed four people and left two others missing Sunday in Atush city in northwest China's Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region. (Global Times)
74-year-old Prime Minister of Italy Silvio Berlusconi tells a blasphemous joke about Jews to emergency workers dealing with the 2009 L'Aquila earthquake, causing upset to the Vatican. Berlusconi describes it as "just a laugh" he "made in private, not offensive and not a sin." (The Daily Telegraph)
The United States issues a travel alert to its citizens across Europe, warning that it suspects they may become the target of a commando-style attack. (Al Jazeera)(BBC)(Channel 4 News)
Healthcare Professionals for Change, the first professional body established with the aim of improving the United Kingdom's Suicide Act 1961, is to launch its campaign to change death laws, described as "unprecedented". (The Observer)
I would support a mind game even on the ITN if the article were to be updated significantly. Right now it has only a bunch of tables in it. Nergaal (talk) 21:26, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've expanded the article, which now seems to have more reasonable content. Since the consensus has already been done here, it would be good any administrator to post it on the main page. I notice that the Olympiad has concluded today, though the main events concluded yesterday.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 16:17, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just a reminder, WRC is listed at ITNR and is probably the second most prestigious driver title (behind F1 and likely on par with Indy). Nergaal (talk) 17:31, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
1) Cancellara won four (previous record was 3?) and Loeb won 7 (previous was 4). 2) Cyclism gets multiple posts per year (and it got the Contador one just 3 days ago), while for WRC this is the only post it gets the entire year. 3) Cycling is going downhill ever since the Festina scandal. 4) not every single top cyclist goes to the World Championships (Armstrong did not go in most of his winning years). 5) Driving 100km/h through one-lane-roads through thick forests is so much cooler than time-trialing on a bike. Nergaal (talk) 17:11, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Rallying is a lot more "real" than F1, which is very sterilised with every driver doing a "perfect lap" nowadays with these miracle cars. As for cycling, at least the European police do terrorism-style raids on drug dens etc, as drug tests tend to not catch much; if other sports did this, they would catch a lot more, but I can't see China's military raiding their own athletes as their sports program is the same as military propaganda; same as GDR. As for popularity, well people always say that rugby league is going down because each year there is some alleged gang rape or sexual assault trial; well, the females keep flocking to the grounds etc... As for Armstrong, you generally need a different type of rider for one-day classics etc, and Armstrong is not really of that type YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 23:26, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know it is not the usual ITN style, but unusual circumstances demand unusual solutions. It allows co-operation rather than competition to get events mentioned. The articles get their publicity, even if the reader needs to do more work to find results (again, what is the purpose of ITN: to provide news headlines or to bring current affairs articles to prominence?). If the world rally championship is decided today, that can be added to the list, and the Ryder Cup result can be integrated into it tomorrow. I'd be perfectly happy to see the Commonwealth games separated out and given its own blurb, and I'd judge inclusion of the rallying as marginal, so no upset here if that drops out. Perhaps if elections in Brazil, Bosnia and Latvia all co-incide this weekend, a similar approach could be taken in that regard. Kevin McE (talk) 13:40, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support of the proposal. Readers can access the details (results, winners, or whatever) the articles. Perhaps on Monday we can add the Ryder Cup to the list of events reaching their conclusions.--Johnsemlak (talk) 13:46, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Call me conservative, but I don't think we should be combining unrelated events into a single blurb like that. So what if we have a lot of updates in one weekend? Keeps things ticking over, and older items still have several days on the template. Modest Geniustalk16:23, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the blurb sounds awful to me. Much better to simply pick a couple of stories (I'd go for the Commonwealth Games and the Ryder Cup) and ditch the rest. There is no WikiRight to get a story on ITN, after all. Physchim62(talk)18:13, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose yeah, coverage is higher than some, but there is a reason why it is not listed at ITNR: there are three other entries listed under basketball. The AFL/NFL are the only one for the sport, while cycling has only 1 entry a year. I would normally be neutral, but the blurb will be filled with sports in the next 24h without women's basketball. Nergaal (talk) 09:20, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And in your recourse to statistical analysis lies the essential epistemological question about the purpose of ITN that is so ill-defined: does it exist to highlight articles that have much current interest, or to increase interest in articles that have current relevance? Kevin McE (talk) 10:25, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Supportif the article is improved. I do realize there's a lot of sport on this weekend; so let's keep the blurb short. But this is the the premier event in the world of Women's basketball, and it only takes place every 4 years. That's not an overload of women's basketball. And women's basketball is one of the most popular women's sports out there (how many others get covered on ITN?). We cover the men's world championship; we should cover the women's. The fact that the US are heavy favorites right now is irrelevant--would we not post the World Cup winner if Brazil wins it again? For the record Australia, not the US, is the defending world champion. And the 'not on ITNR argument is invalid'--it's not a comprehensive list by any means. You can't say that an event not being on it is evidence that it's not notable enough. I'd prefer HTD's stats above as that kind of evidence.--Johnsemlak (talk) 10:48, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - regardless of who wins, and regardless of gender. OK, so this isn't listed at ITN/R, but basketball is a major sport, and the fact that women are playing it at an international level is interesting (I tend to think, somewhat chauvinistically, that netball is the female equivalent of basketball). The real show-stopper seems to be that there's a lot of sport on right now. Well, it happens. Sometimes there are a lot of natural disasters, sometimes there are a lot of elections. We filter on quality of article/update - and this seems to be a decent article that's been updated. TFOWR11:02, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I might want to add that basketball is enjoys far broader world popularity than rugby, golf, or Aussie rules which are all popular in geographically limited parts of the world.--Johnsemlak (talk) 11:07, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. At the risk of sounding sexist, I think we would be opening the floodgates if we started posting the highest womens' level of every sport. We have enough issues keeping a balance between different sports as it is, without doubling the number of some (but far from all) of them. Events where the mens' and womens' competitions are held at the same time and receive equal attention (e.g. tennis, athletics) should continue to have both results posted together. Those where the competitions are held separately should be seen as if it were 'just another' competition in that sport (so still posted if there's significant media attention etc). IMO this isn't sufficiently big in the basketball world to qualify without appealing to special treatment because it's for women. Modest Geniustalk16:29, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hang on here. Nobody's suggesting we post the top women's event of every major sport. Basketball is one of the most popular sports in the world, and the women's version of it has a significant following. Posting it doesn't necessitate posting woman's softball or women's rugby. That said, I think we can acknowledge that at ITN we generally feature very few women's sporting items and it wouldn't hurt to post an event that clearly has a decent level of interest (see HTD's figures--it's getting more interest than the AFL Grand Final which was already posted).--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:06, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. When people dismiss out of hand the male World Chapmionships of some sports which have wide participation and TV coverage, then pretending the women's basketball final is significant enough for ITN is a complete joke. MickMacNee (talk) 18:30, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The combined statistics for the two PDC/BDO darts World Championship finals was around 10,000, which would have been posted as a single item. It seems this is an arguement which has at best, selective importance, when it comes to 'minority' sports. MickMacNee (talk) 15:14, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Women's bball is popular and the quality and skill level is high. Obviously in general, female athletes will be slower and less powerful than the men, but in this case they are also skillful in ball-handling. Whereas in football, many top-10 women's national teams can't pass the ball cleanly more than 2-3 times in a row and the ball just flies about randomly to nowhere/empty paddock. Not here YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 23:26, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support assuming article suitably updated: there has been no clear consensus to overthrow long standing practice, and the more recent proposal at WT:ITN is to omit countries with population below 2m, which Latvia is not. Kevin McE (talk) 10:36, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral. usually I'd support, but there are also elections in Bosnia and Brazil this weekend, and we're not short of other stories to say the least. Physchim62(talk)12:03, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support per ITNR. It's also a general election in an industrialised EU member. The article obviously needs updates once the final results are known before posting. Modest Geniustalk16:31, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The world championships of a major and genuinely international sport; although we sometimes give results of a Grand Tour, the disciplines of one day classics and timetrialling are quite different, and the same world champions are rarely tour winners (there is no way that Hushovd or Cancellara will ever win a Tour de France), and we have no regular coverage of women's cycling. Cancellara's win was his fourth world title, which is unprecedented in any road discipline: I'd prefer to see that included, but it might make the blurn too long. Kevin McE (talk) 06:14, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Maybe if there was less of a logjam of sports events this weekend I'd support but whatever status this event has in the world of cycling, the popular perception is the TDF and the other grand tours are the premier cycling events of the year. That's enough cycling IMO.--Johnsemlak (talk) 10:55, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And supporting the inclusion of women in basketball, but not in cycling? My original rationale made clear that one-day racing and time-trialing are very different disciplines from a three week tour. Kevin McE (talk) 11:13, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I do think the women in cycling argument is strong. However, as a men's event, I don't support it. Yes, Cancellalara and Hushovd are not contenders to win the grand tours, but they do compete for the Green Jersey as well as stage victories in grand tours which gets indirect coverage at ITN (it will be mentioned in the articles ITN links to).--Johnsemlak (talk) 11:21, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Major competition. Agree that 20-stage races are different from one-dayers where you can't go for long attrition and everyone has to be opportunistic. The dynamics of WC, Paris-Roubaix are very ddiferent. And PR was 3-0 in April but was never posted :( YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 23:26, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The article will need some work to address (alledged) POV concerns. I don't know much on the subject, or have the time to take care of it myself currently, but I feel it really should be featured. Grsz1105:52, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The article is desperately unclear. I read the blurb on ITN/FE and thought it would be interesting, but could not be confident after reading it what the scale or frequency of recent payments was, or who have received what proportion of the payments. The proposer's figure of €150m is nowhere to be seen in the article. I'd be happy to support if the article were in a shape such that it rendered useful clear information, but I can't at the moment. Kevin McE (talk) 06:35, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional Support - obvious significance. Though note that the last tranche of €150 million is post-reunification - West Germany paid substantially more prior to reunification, and Germany paid some reparations prior to 1932. TFOWR 11:52, 3 October 2010 (UTC) Conditional support: article has POV issues as noted below by Courcelles. TFOWR13:48, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Administrator note All the support in the world is meaningless with those two orange-level tags on the article. Until they are legitimately resolved, the article can't hit the main page. Courcelles13:16, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
After briefly looking at the article and the discussion, it seems unlikely that this will be resolved quickly. In my opinion the disputed section is simply far too long.--Johnsemlak (talk) 13:41, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I certainly do hope it does get resolved. There seems to have been some work done over the last few days. However, the tag has been there since January. Also, the section Impact_on_the_German_economy is way too long and very dense--that section needs serious work.--Johnsemlak (talk) 15:04, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I'm sure he's quite notable in the physics community, but I personally don't think he's notable enough generally for his death to be on ITN. I don't think there is or should be a rule that all Nobel laureate deaths go up on ITN. I didn't support Saramago either, but you could make the case that as an author he is better known than is Charpak. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:20, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There have been 57 Nobel prize winners in the last 5 years. All Nobel prize winners will die. If the average rate of naming them is nearly one a month, then the average mortality rate will be similar. I do not believe that we will accept that rate of people being listed at ITN on these grounds, so can only conclude that "merely" being a laureate is sufficient. The recently deceased, for all that he was, I can only assume, brilliant in his field, did not impinge on the wider public consciousness, so oppose. Kevin McE (talk) 06:47, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Question While I agree with you in the sense of the subsequent frequency of postings if we added the death of a Nobel laureate to WP:ITN/R, there is also a fine line using the public consciousness as a criterion in ITN obits. The gay teen suicide below is a case where the public consciousness was very much impacted by the death but nevertheless it is not ITN material as Clementi had no notability to speak of. Isn't most of our job to separate the public reaction from events and asses them based on their overall importance and impact on the world? After all, the public psyche is based mostly on the media and we almost never accept pure media frenzy as notability. I don't know Charpak's biography, but should we not attempt to examine his candidacy in terms of his impact on the world? How did his efforts in physics affect the field/public/modern scientific understanding? If his work can be considered "notable" in his own right, then his death marks the end of further similar accomplishments and his post on ITN will reflect the loss of his potential brilliance to the world; by the transitive property therefore, notable to the wider world. Cwill151 (talk) 09:10, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am simply pointing out that in cases of death on ITN, the significance to the world is in terms of the magnitude of the loss experienced by the world in said persons death. In this case that loss can be measured by the significance of his accomplishments. I am not supporting his posting, just pointing out a potential objective measurement we can use to asses his nomination. (BTW, many scientists continue to actively participate in and support further research even during their retirement.) Cwill151 (talk) 19:08, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In response to K McE, no, although most people are awarded as old men, they did their ground-breaking research 30 years earlier at 25-35; the science prizes usually wait for a while in case the work gets debunked, unlike the Nobel when you can make a promise and get a world prize when you have no intention of keeping it. I promise to be run 100m in 9.00 in 2012, may I have my gold medal in advance sir? YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 23:26, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose deaths of NP winners are almost never notable IMO. Somebody receiving the award always is. Most people receive the award years after they did the work and most NP winners die years after they have retired and not actively involved in anything. ITN is not a place to honor people for past achievements.--Wikireader41 (talk) 11:58, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I must say, I find Wikireader's argument very convincing. I think we should be open to deaths from old age of people of outstanding notability, but I agree that the death of a NP winner is not in and of itself all that notable.--Johnsemlak (talk) 12:14, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Kwa Geok Choo has officially died. This report on her death says "her contributions to Singapore had been most significant, and pivotal to its history". She was the wife of Lee Kuan Yew, described by Wikipedia as "the first Prime Minister of the Republic of Singapore, from 1959 to 1990, and was one of the longest serving Prime Ministers in the world ... one of the most influential political figures in South-East Asia". Also, the mother of Lee Hsien Loong, the current Prime Minister of Singapore. The Belgian PM has offered his condolences, as have the Malaysian PM and President of Taiwan, if that demonstrates some international effects. The PM has interrupted his trip to the Asia-Europe Meeting (ASEM) in Brussels and returned to Singapore. "Within hours of" the death announcement, "ordinary Singaporean from all walks of life, including those living overseas, began sending in condolences and tributes on news blogs and online sites". --candle•wicke02:55, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Her husband was the founder of the nation, but I agree with HJ Mitchell that she was notable primarily by association. When Lee dies, I'll support that nomination no matter how old he is. Nightw03:23, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. As a Singaporean, I personally believe that while she has contributed greatly to the nation, she's not notable enough to be go on ITN. I agree with Night w's point, it's not significant enough I'm afraid. ANGCHENRUITalk♨08:43, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose sorry I don't think she's significant enough on her own and is just related to exceedingly notable people. When Lee Kuan Yew dies I'll definitely be strongly supporting. Whether or not you like his methods he's turned Singapore from a backwater into one of the worlds richest and best cities. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:03, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, not because of the issues of notability by association, but because the article simply doesn't indicate any notability. I have the feeling that if the wife of a hypothetical 30-year US president were to die, it would create banner headlines all over the world and be posted here (to use a real historical example, consider Eleanor Roosevelt). Actually, I think there would be significant pressure to post the death of Nancy Reagan were she to die.--Johnsemlak (talk) 13:56, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
...is today. The St George Illawarra Dragons are looking for their first premiership in over three decades, while the Sydney Roosters could become the first team in almost 80 years to win the premiership after finishing bottom of the ladder in the previous season. This is WP:ITN/R. We could combine the AFL and NRL posting into one post to help alleviate concerns about too much sport this weekend. --Mkativerata (talk) 00:03, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support: decent article with a lost of recent updating. Sometimes there are a lot of similar things happening - diversity is good but shouldn't prevent us putting decent articles up. TFOWR10:56, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've posted this, despite being the nominator, as there are no objections and it is ITN/R. For geographical balance in Australia, the AFL item can't sit on ITN without the NRL item. I haven't bolded any of the NRL pages.--Mkativerata (talk) 23:38, 3 October 2010 (UTC).[reply]
This was earlier nominated, with the concerns and controversies featured, but the nomination did not pass. The event begins today, and as stated in the criteria this event is inherently notable enough to be published once it begins. ANGCHENRUITalk♨08:49, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - But the item cannot be added until the article has been updated. That is the one rule that everyone on ITN is unanimously behind --Daviessimo (talk) 07:31, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support and three cheers for all the athletes living in and loving the "Giant toilet" ( with due apologies to YM from whom I plagiarized the term)--Wikireader41 (talk) 10:44, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As per this discussion, some users felt it was my POV for not including the controversies section for the ITN blurb. Honestly I felt that it was the inclusion of the news of the CWG had the support and not specifically for the controversies section. Kindly express your opinions and I will change the ITN blurb accordingly -- TinuCherian - 15:46, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I support not mentioning the controversies in the blurb. All this info can be accessed by the readers in the article with fuller context.--Johnsemlak (talk) 16:02, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fine as is: the controversies were in the news 10 days ago, and don't feature large in today's reports. Of course there are controversies (what large event does not have them?) but they are no longer the story. Kevin McE (talk) 16:05, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
support the blurb as it is. The controversy story is dead as a doornail and irrelevant at the moment. It would be complete violation of NPOV to include them at this point. Indian sanitation, hygiene, punctuality & corruption standards are what they are and not the story here.--Wikireader41 (talk) 16:44, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A four-story residential building under construction collapsed Saturday morning in Chang'an District of Xi'an City, northwest China's Shaanxi Province, killing eight workers and injuring three. (China Daily)
A film produced for the 10:10 campaign in which a teacher explodes two of her students is withdrawn due to complaints and an apology is issued. (BBC)(The Guardian)
American female television station Oxygen gives the go-ahead to a new reality show set to star American celebrity and heiress Paris Hilton; the show is to follow Hilton in the course of her daily life. (Reuters)
Around 1,500 people demonstrate peacefully in Bremen city centre against a weekend of celebrations as the 20th anniversary of German reunification approaches, discrediting police fears of large-scale riots. (Deutsche Welle)(BBC)
Druidry is recognised as religion for first time in UK
"The ancient pagan tradition (...snip...) has been formally classed as a religion under charity law for the first time in Britain, the national charity regulator said Saturday. That means Druids can receive exemptions from taxes on donations — and now have the same status as such mainstream religions as the Church of England." (AP) "Druidry is to become the first pagan practice to be given official recognition as a religion." (BBC) --BorgQueen (talk) 23:20, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. My reading of the story is that the Charity Commission for England and Wales has figured out a definition for a religion, and Druidry fits within that definition. While the result might be interesting to those who have heard of Druids, it is a simple application of the principle of religious freedom, and so not really notable. Physchim62(talk)01:02, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not really "given official recognition as a religion"; it's "classed as a religion for a specific administrative purpose". It doesn't give them any different status under the rest of the law, and if such status was debated in court, I don't think this ruling would lead to the court deciding in a different way now to the way they would have done last week. As to the meaningfulness of the ruling - well, the definition of "religion" under charitable law is famously convoluted! Shimgray | talk | 01:37, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think the proper definition of an official religion now, is whether you could sue someone under the brand new Equality Act, for preventing you from being a practising Druid or whatever. I'm pretty sure that this has even come up before in the news anyway, where someone was trying to claim time off work for official Druid observances, in the same way that the general population gets Christmas off. There was also the theory that it is decided by census returns, as in if enough people wrote down 'Jedi' it became an 'official religion', but I'm pretty sure that turned out to be an urban myth. MickMacNee (talk) 02:43, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is "in the news". If the BBC titles "Druidry is to become the first pagan practice to be given official recognition as a religion [in the UK]", it's an "In the News" item, regardless of possible distinctions like "given official recognition as a religion" vs. "classed as a religion for a specific administrative purpose" (I frankly do not see a difference between the two). Of course, the topic here is not "Druidry", it is "Druidry" (note the pipe). --dab(𒁳)13:17, 4 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
According to MIT's Technology Review, confirmation of the results will have "profound effects for cosmology and the way the universe will end"[59], while Physorg.com makes similar claims that it could have "implications on everything from the fate of black holes to how the universe may end".[60] According to The Economist of all things, "By linking the disparate fields of gravitational science, quantum mechanics and thermodynamics, Hawking radiation has become a crucial concept in theoretical physics over the past quarter of a century", and"It may even be enough to convince Sweden’s Royal Academy of Science to give Dr Hawking the Nobel prize that many think he deserves, but which a lack of experimental evidence has hitherto caused it to withhold"[61]
Sure sounds significant. Hmm... how will the world end if its confirmed? Just a question: has it been reported in mainstream newspapers or news channels? ANGCHENRUITalk♨16:08, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support per the well-written nom. The Economist is a mainstream newspaper and its endorsement makes clear the importance of this discovery: linking fields of physics and giving the Swedish Academy what they need to award Hawking the Nobel. The latter will be ITN material in itself if it happens.--Chaser (talk) 16:43, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: wow, where did this appear from? If true, this is astounding. However, I'm a little cautious, for the following reasons: 1) This isn't actually hawking radiation, but rather an analogue to it (similar to the magnetic monopoles story last year) 2) where's the huge media attention this should have garnered, particularly in the UK where the media reveres Hawking? 3) it was published a week ago. I'm just about to have a read of the paper. Modest Geniustalk17:04, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I just read the paper, and it's certainly very interesting. It uses an optical refractive-index perturbation to form an analogue of a white hole event horizon. It then demonstrates emission at wavelengths expected for Hawking-like radiation, but which cannot be explained by other emission mechanisms (it fairly convincingly excludes fluorescence and Raleigh scattering). Whether this really counts as Hawking radiation is the big question; my immediate reaction is that it doesn't, but I'm no expert here. Modest Geniustalk17:42, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If the media announcement that it will be published is too stale, it can be held for the publication date of the journal if need be. MickMacNee (talk) 19:24, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Although a very significant news, it is still very early - try googling "Hawking radiation news" and you get a lot of "if confirmed", and "may have observed", etc. Crnorizec (talk) 19:03, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
IIRC we accept these sorts of events on the basis of publication, not third party confirmation, which would require replication of the results. MickMacNee (talk) 19:24, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. The physics on this one is way beyond me personally: the comments above seem to suggest that this is a very significant dicovery, but maybe not exactly what is hyped. I'm going for a weak oppose because we will have a science-rich week next week with the Nobel Prize announcements, and so I'd like to be certain before posting another science story at the moment. Physchim62(talk)20:12, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
i thought by the nature of hawking radiation it would be impossible for humans to actually test it. i have yet to look at this paper to figure out whats going on but if this is true then it is a very important find. -- Ashish-g5520:31, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The authors specifically call their effect "Hawking radiation", even if they haven't greated a black hole, and the journal has accepted that, so I don't see that as a major problem: if ITN gets it wrong, then so will many people in a much better position to judge than we are! Physchim62(talk)20:58, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose though I personally feel bad opposing a science related story I question how many WP readers would be interested/able to understand this. It maybe better to wait till Hawking does actually get the Nobel for this.--Wikireader41 (talk) 22:41, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wait for now to see if it gets more play in the media. The project title "In the News" implies that items should be somewhat widely covered in the mainstream media. The Economist is no doubt mainstream media; however, I don't think a single mention in a single publication qualifies for ITN. If this starts getting significant coverage in newspapers, I'm all for its inclusion. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:41, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are also pieces in New Scientist[62] and Discover magazine [63]. Considering the Nobel aspect requires replication, I think expecting Hawking to get the prize next Tuesday is way off base. MickMacNee (talk) 02:28, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There's no chance of that. The nomination process alone takes many months, and there's no way they'd ever award a Nobel based on the evidence in that paper! Modest Geniustalk02:36, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. anybody who thinks that there is a finite chance of a Nobel based on that article has no clue how science works. again I don't think this is a good ITN story with widespread international interest.--Wikireader41 (talk) 03:39, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So? Other than involving the same person, what does that have to do with Hawking radiation, let alone a Nobel prize? Writing a best-selling book never won anyone a Nobel prize. Modest Geniustalk16:39, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support. While all of the above comments make excellent points regarding the notability of the publication in itself and Hawking's connection to it, I have to support on the grounds of comparative assessment. I.E. If the LHC tomorrow released a statement in which they confirmed the existence of the Higgs Boson then I sincerely doubt if there would be any opposition to immediate posting. So, the credible publication of results confirming the existence of Hawking radiation, which like the Higgs has been only mathematically theorized until now, is of the same caliber of importance. And as a sweetener A Brief History of Timeis one of the best selling physics publications of all time; therefore, the confirmation of the theories within is relevant to the same massive audience. Cwill151 (talk) 19:23, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This seems to have gone stale, but as above, it did make The Independent on Oct 4. So can we have a ruling either way please, before this drops into the archive? MickMacNee (talk) 16:31, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In the straightest sense there's 3 support to 2 oppose, and while I agree that we should have closure on this it is far from a distinct consensus and well overdue to be posted what with all of the current Nobel Prizes... I think in this case we simply missed the boat :( Cwill151 (talk) 19:04, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is WP:ITN/R. The winner should be known in about 3-4 hours. It is the third time in history that the final has been replayed because of a draw. I'm no AFL fan but I'll be nominating (the 2010 NRL Grand Final tomorrow if someone else doesn't beat me) and we have to be fair to the Victorians.--Mkativerata (talk) 04:26, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose fo both as AFL is not an international sport and to my knowledge has essentially no viewers outside Australia. Rugby league is similarly a limited recognition sport (I would support rugby union though). Nergaal (talk) 09:05, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment It's a big sports weekend: Ryder Cup, Road Cycling World Championships, opening of Commonwealth games, Aussie Rules Grand Final, World Rally Championship could be clinched... We'll need to be selective. A bit of a test of our priorities as well: if internationalism is our priority, it should be Delhi and the cycling, but with Contador already on the template, I suspect those with questionable taste in knitwear will prevail. Kevin McE (talk) 09:09, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose → Support, in agreement with the statements below. Hate Collingwood. No, seriously though, I do... The event is too domestic (should be taken off ITN/R).Nightw16:20, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support per ITNR and broadness of coverage. Although it's of limited interest, the article looks very good, certainly much better than most sport finals we post. Modest Geniustalk16:26, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Even before the advent of WP:ITN/R, it was agreed upon that the premier championship(s) of any major sport (irrespective of where it is or isn't popular) would automatically qualify for inclusion, provided that sufficient article updates occurred. Australian rules football is a major sport by any reasonable measure, and this clearly is its premier championship. I'll remind everyone that the section's purpose is to highlight articles written or substantially updated to reflect recent/current events, not to report the world's "top" news stories. Wikipedia's comprehensive coverage is something in which to take pride, not something to downplay. For the record, I've never visited Australia or seen an Australian rules football match in my life. —David Levy17:06, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support per David Levy. I've spent a night in Brisbane, and far too long at Sydney airport on far too many occasions, but this is my sport and I've not seen an AFL match yet, not even on the telly. Well, maybe the odd snippet on Rove. TFOWR20:15, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Australia is the No. 4 country by number of English Wikipedia readers, and I think enough of them will be interested in this item to make it meet the "wide interest" criterion. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:38, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. ITN/R, the other footballs are usually included if updated, nice to have a sport event from the Southern Hemisphere and agree with Modest Genius, David Levy, TFOWR and Mwalcoff. --candle•wicke01:42, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Prominent video journalist Merajuddin is hospitalised in Srinagar after being severely beaten with a baton in his neck by Kashmir police. They also beat up his son and colleague in the latest police attack on the media there. (BBC)
Following the killing of 3 Pakistani soldiers by NATO, tankers carrying supplies for NATO troops based in Afghanistan are set alight in Shikarpur, Sindh, injuring no one. (Al Jazeera)
American author Jonathan Franzen advises British fans to cease reading his latest novel Freedom as a printing error has led to the publication of an old draft of his text, with thousands of copies set to be pulped. (The Guardian)
Support. This apology is for a major historical atrocity. Please do not use astericks for support/oppose !votes. ~AH1(TCU)15:21, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose there really isn' anything noteworthy about it. Tragic, maybe, but plenty of kids commit suicide every week due to bullying. The fact that four of them happened to be gay and did it all on the same week doesn't make it any more notable. --PlasmaTwa223:34, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - The fact that over 2000 acticles have been published on various news sites, it's made national news in the USA, it hasn't remained that local because different countries have reported on it. Various celebs have issued statements on the issue which has created even moore media coverage of it. So I think the fact you over looked this and say plenty commit suicide every week, is glossing over the issue. Infact it's caused atleast 7 chat shows to do segments over the past day .. replacing there planned content. Even if you use the filter to the event that started the whole coverage it reaches a large number...RAIN..the..ONEHOTLINE23:54, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But what exactly is the news? Is it that there happened to be a few more gay-related suicides this week, or that people are outraged over the fact a guy spied on his roommate and it lead to his roommate jumping off of a bridge? Most items that are suggested on this page have recieved a good deal of converage in the media, but not everything is of the same notability, and quite frankly, celebrities speaking out against an issue usually isn't taken into criteria here on itn considering they will comment on anything. Compared to everything else we have on ITN at the moment, this is rather small (I won't even bring up the death criteria for ITN, psrt because this wouldn't pass and part because I doubt this even qualifies for it anyway). I don't see how we can post an item about how there were four gay teenagers who commited suicide in the same week; I don't see how that is news, it looks more like a random statistic. Deaths related to bullying or the internet happen all the time (For example, that one girl who was bullied into commiting suicide by a grown woman pretending to be a boy). This just isn't the kind of thing we post on ITN, but then again that is just my opinion. --PlasmaTwa200:42, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Although very, very sad and it personally makes me angry, I'm forced to oppose. Regrettably, suicides occur every day, and although this is receiving more media coverage than most, it still is too common and small-range to merit a support from me. SpencerT♦C01:34, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, not least because there does not seem to be an article to refer to, which is the whole point of ITN. Nergaal, if you are unable or unwilling to make mature contributions to the discussion, please stay away. Kevin McE (talk) 09:14, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, but it is so prevalent in the Western World that calling it notable because it has the adjective gay with it is as ridiculous as calling it lame. Nergaal (talk) 21:58, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose. Teenagers committing suicide is not news, happens all the time. Drawing artificial links between four of them just to make a point is silly. Modest Geniustalk16:31, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. A story relating to gay teen suicides would be qualified for a spot at ITN in my opinion if it was centered on some shocking findings in a government report or scientific paper that made legislators and others call for major reappraisal of current policies. __meco (talk) 17:20, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Wait. As per Meco, this item fits in with many, many other items posted on ITN. Namely, while the events themselves (suicides) appear in the media and the common psyche to be significant, they unfortunately are not in the context of a global community. However, major changes to policy, social standards, legal systems, etc that stem from them would be. Therefore, IMO it's best to shelve this one for now and report on the potential aftermath when relevant. Cwill151 (talk) 22:08, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Barack Obama has a new White House Chief of Staff, a.k.a. "the second-most powerful person in Washington," Pete Rouse. This is important, encyclopedic, timely, very much "in the news" (above the fold in The New York Times and Washington Post today and currently the No. 1 story on the AP wire) and of wide interest to many readers. Also, I believe he's the first WHCOS from a racial minority group (he's half Asian). This is the kind of story I'm talking about when I talk about getting our U.S. content above 5%. Yes, I know few people care outside of America, but enough of our readers live in America to meet the "wide interest" criterion, and being the right-hand man of the so-called Leader of the Free World certainly meets the importance criterion. And before anyone complains that it's a "domestic" item, as if that was forbidden, note that all of the other current ITN items are "domestic" save the space and sports ones. Suggested blurb:
Support the Chief of Staff is an important position. I don't think writing a paragraph about how we should post this despite it being American is relevant. This is an important government item. --PlasmaTwa222:33, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Appointed members of the executive aren't particularly significant; they're merely advisers. A White House Chief of Staff's significance waxes and wanes depending on the identity of the President and the CoS and the relationship between them. --Mkativerata (talk) 22:37, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's true, but Emanuel was a very important person in the Obama White House and we can probably assume Rouse will have a similar stature. Sorry for blabbing on above; I was just trying to be complete. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 22:39, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support I'm going to go out on a limb and weak support this, even though I would usually support presidential appointments to the Supreme Court/important military positions. But given the posting of David Lloyd Johnston, I could say (with some fact), that Rouse has more influence than Johnston. SpencerT♦C01:39, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Considering Johnston will be doing the duties of a head of state, I don`t know what you mean by that. The two positions aren`t really comparable so let`s just judge this one based on its own merits. --I am Galileo,Watch me discover!02:36, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I understands its similar to an apples to oranges comparison, but I'm reading that for the Governor General (from Governor General of Canada): "For the most part, however, the powers of the Crown are exercised on a day-to-day basis by elected and appointed individuals, leaving the governor general to perform the various ceremonial duties the sovereign otherwise carries out when in the country". So I where the governor general has mostly ceremonial duties, Rouse is like the appointed individual who exercises the powers of the crown, in terms of the definition above. Nonetheless, I understand some of the limitations of this comparison, which is why my support is "weak." SpencerT♦C03:19, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Domestic news, limited direct power, would never be posted for any country other than the US, and this is an item which is very much a classic case of the bad kind of systemic bias. Although granted, compared to the Prime Minister of Tuvalu, the American CoS is a God. But then you won't find me claiming that either item is ITN worthy. And by the by, does anyone seriously believe all currently posted items bar sports/space are 'domestic'? Really? MickMacNee (talk) 04:12, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Whatd does "the second-most powerful person in Washington" means? More powerful than Pelosi or Clinton? ... (talk) 07:50, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Exactly how far down the US pecking order of public officials do people think the rest of the world has interest in? Maybe we should (elsewhere, obviously) discuss a list of public positions whose change is to be considered ITNworthy. Kevin McE (talk) 09:28, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You have every right to oppose, but to say he will be "more or less unknown outside the District of Columbia" is out and out wrong. Lots of people outside of DC are interested in what's going on in the White House. Maybe not outside of the U.S., but outside of DC, absolutely. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:26, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I usually support more information about U.S. Supreme Court picks because they are appointed for life and have independent power. Although the WHCOS has lots of agenda-setting power, his power derives from the President's and his actions depend on the President's strategic objectives. He does not have the independent power that would make this ITN-worthy.--Chaser (talk) 16:15, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - far too local, doesn't seem like he'll have much of an interest outside the US (see Kevin's comment above). f o x22:38, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Date of launch is being kept a secret, though of course there is speculation it will launch on 1 October, coinciding with China's National Day. Or so I gleaned online (here and here). It makes sense too. At the same time, should we also include info on China's space ambitions (sending their people to the Moon by 2025 etc)? ANGCHENRUITalk♨09:20, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There's nothing remarkable about launching a second probe to do something the first one already did, and to do something that is unremarkable in the field of space exploration. MickMacNee (talk) 04:21, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We can do away with the date. The tenses were an oversight, I suppose 'announced' will be replaced with 'announces'. The announcements came in late September, which is relatively recent (see the external source I provided). ANGCHENRUITalk♨16:11, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're still linking "announces plans" to a section containing no such statement. The missing information can be added (with the external source cited), but the "as it" wording would remain inaccurate (because the announcement preceded the launch). I suggest the following blurb (suitable only after the aforementioned article update occurs):
I'm in two minds about this. It seems interesting, and I take Nergaal's point about the limited number of times similar events have occurred. On the other hand Chang'e 1 was a first, and Chang'e 3 will be a first, but Chang'e 2 is really just preparation for Chang'e 3. And I won't be able to make smart-alec comments about Apollo 11's failure to find the Bunny Girl until Chang'e 3 lands on the Moon... neutral, leaning towards oppose. TFOWR09:30, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Marginal support: unlike many space exploration stories that have recently been featured, this one is actually featuring in television news bulletins in my part of the world. A short while ago it seemed as though any space exploration story was a shoe-in Kevin McE (talk) 09:59, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not to be ... well, yes, to be crass: You're kidding, right? What on earth made you think this was something that remotely belonged on ITN? --Golbez (talk) 21:06, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The largest hot air balloon festival in the world is 100 times more interesting to readers than the Tuvalu election. Ticks all the boxes for patting people on the back for writing informative content about subjects the media doesn't care about. MickMacNee (talk) 04:24, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The current rally will end on the 3rd, and if Loeb wins, and Ogier is 3rd, then Loeb will win the championship for a record seventh time. Currently they are 1st and 3rd respectively. Nergaal (talk) 17:57, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. The article is in reasonable shape, but we have to draw the line on new fossil discoveries somewhere, and penguin feather-resistance seems an appropriate place as any. Physchim62(talk)21:26, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There have been hundreds of similar attacks in Pakistan over the last few years but this is thought to be the first incident of its kind in the southern supply route town of Shikarpur [66]. --Saqib Qayyum (talk) 08:02, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While this is not the Prime Minister, the GG is the representative for the Queen, who is officially Canada's head of state. Will occur at 12 PM EST today. --NaturalRX12:49, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, there are important powers that rest with her, like when the current prime minister wanted to prorogue Parliament (twice!), he had to ask for her permission. --NaturalRX14:14, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't object to posting a new British monarch, but that leader is the official head of state in many countries and is a household name globally. I don't think the same amount of notability transfers to the Canadian GG.--Johnsemlak (talk) 14:18, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Above, I said "de facto head of state". The Canadian Monarch is the de jure Head of State, but tends to live in London and have very little to do with Canadian affairs, delegating that role to the Governor General. Physchim62(talk)15:16, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
support powers or no powers GG is technically head of state. i would oppose if GG changed regularly but once in 5 years is good enough to post. -- Ashish-g5515:10, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment if we are going to require excruciating detail on the swearing-in ceremony as an acceptable update then that would be an idiotic update policy. Obviously the article needs updating to change tenses, but I find it an excellent background to the news story as it is: it explains how he came to be GG, which is surely what is important here. Physchim62(talk)15:26, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've done what looks like a very short update, but also includes various tense changes throughout the article: for me that's sufficient in a case like this, so I leave it to others to justify any requests for more. Physchim62(talk)18:24, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strongest support possible stepping aside from whether or not the GG can be considered Canada's head of state (which he isn't), he is still the Queen's representative in Canada and will take on duties like signing bills into law, so it is still a very important position. --PlasmaTwa216:46, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Administrator note Néstor Kirchner#Death needs tidying, copy editing and possibly expanding. Twenty minute job at most if anybody's up for it. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:13, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Administrator note as of right now, the article still says "As of July 2010, Sheikh Saqr is reported to be dying.", so we're obviously going to need an update before this can be posted. Courcelles 14:43, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Done Split 2010 eruption of Mount Merapi from Mount Merapi. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 23:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
_(cropped).jpg)
.jpg){kind=link}