User talk:Trappist the monk/Archive 25

Date regexes - Flaw fix

Hello! I managed to find time to continue (and hopefully conclude) Smallem's update about dates.

I shortened the seasons according to your advice and I started creating the case sensitive regexes about Jan & Mar. I've currently done 2 tables of those. The comments are in Albanian but I believe the tables are self explanatory. Can you give it a look and tell me if it looks like I'm on the right path? - Klein Muçi (talk) 18:23, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

For date ranges, it doesn't make much sense to check:

|access-date= – cs1|2 emits a date error message

|archive-date= – accepted but date ranges don't make sense here

|doi-broken-date= – accepted but date ranges don't make sense here

|lay-date= – deprecated and will become unsupported at a future module update

|pmc-embargo-date= – cs1|2 emits a date error message

For your #dMv-dMv > #Marsi, shouldn't you support dd Mar YYYY – dd Jan YYYY and dd Mar YYYY – dd Feb YYYY where the second dates are in a different year from the first dates? Same applies to #Mdv-Mdv → dMv-dMv > #Marsi.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 18:53, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm confused... When you say "it doesn't make much sense to check", what do you mean exactly? I haven't done much any changes specifically to those regexes beside removing the "nocase" parameter. I just copy-pasted those from the general date regexes list. I think you already checked that list some days ago and said that everything was fine.

Also in regard to shouldn't you support dd Mar YYYY – dd Jan YYYY and dd Mar YYYY – dd Feb YYYY where the second dates are in a different year from the first dates... What do you mean exactly? x2 I removed dates such as March - January because you said they weren't real in real life. Again, you checked those lists and said everything was fine.

I hope I've completely misunderstood your comment today because otherwise there is a high chance I'll have to completely rewrite the general date regex list again to re-add what took me days to remove. :/ - Klein Muçi (talk) 21:47, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

It is better for smallem to avoid 'fixing' stuff that shouldn't be fixed. A date that looks like: 1 December 2002 – 1 January 2003 is a valid date range. But, that valid date range is not allowed in |access-date= and |pmc-embargo-date=; cs1|2 will return an error. That valid date range is accepted by cs1|2 when used in |archive-date= and |doi-broken-date=. But, that valid date range is nonsensical in those parameters because |archive-date= identifies the specific date of an archive snapshot and similarly, |doi-broken-date= identifies the specific date that a |doi= value has been discovered to be dead. No need to fix the value assigned to |lay-date= because that parameter is deprecated and will become unsupported.

In dmy-dmy and mdy-mdy dates, each y part of those date range pairs must be different; 1 December 2002 – 1 January 2003 is valid, 1 January 2002 – 1 December 2002 is not (but 1 January – 1 December 2002 is). The year in the second date of a dmy-dmy pair must be different from and later that the year in the first date of the pair. For this reason, 1 March 2002 – 1 January 2003 and 1 March 2002 – 1 February 2003 are valid dates.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:20, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

So this table includes parameters that it shouldn't include and is missing regexes for valid ranges? - Klein Muçi (talk) 22:29, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Yep.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:33, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

But if that's so, what did you mean in this discussion when you asked Why do you have a Feb-precedes-Jan regex? Feb–Jan is an invalid date because date order left-to-right is earliest-to-latest; in the real world, February follows January. Auto date translation is only applied to valid dates.

And when you said a bit later Invalid dates are not auto-translated. in the same discussion?

Apparently I should re-add all those date regexes again now and this will take way longer than I expected... - Klein Muçi (talk) 22:52, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

All but one of the pastebin links in that discussion have expired and the one that has not is about seasons so I have no reference point to say why I wrote that. If I was writing about d-dmy dates or dm-dmy dates then my statement was correct. If I was writing about dmy-dmy then... obviously not.

Date ranges in |archive-date= and |doi-broken-date= are valid in the sense that cs1|2 does not emit an error message for those dates and so will auto-translate them. If there were an article that has |archive-date=1 December 2002 – 1 January 2003, that date range will get auto-translated and the article will end up in the autotranslated category. If that same article also has |access-date=1 December 2002 – 1 January 2003, it won't be auto-translated, but (as currently written) smallem will translate both |archive-date= and |access-date= – both of them needlessly because both should be fixed by replacing the date ranges with single-point dates.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:28, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Okay then. I'll redo the regexes keeping your new advices in mind. Hopefully I'll get it right this time. Sorry for bothering you. I thought this would have been easier but it turned out to be way harder than I expected. - Klein Muçi (talk) 02:06, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

I managed to find an old version of the regex file in another PC. I have here all the date regexes, unchanged. Can you give me 1 general list of all the needed changes in them? I'm starting to think maybe I should keep them unchanged though. I keep making errors with them even at the current state. The changes would further complicate code maintenance. :/ - Klein Muçi (talk) 16:52, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

#dMv-dMv > #Gjatë – these seem correct except for the extraneous parameters: |access-date=, |archive-date=, |doi-broken-date=, |lay-date=, |pmc-embargo-date=

#dMv-dMv > #Shkurt – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

#Mdv-Mdv → dMv-dMv > #Gjatë – extraneous parameters and missing month conversions because of the whole-date to whole-date in another year issue

#Mdv-Mdv → dMv-dMv > #Shkurt – extraneous parameters and missing month conversions

#dM-dMv > #Gjatë – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

>#dM-dMv > #Shkurt – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

#Md-Mdv→ dM-dMv > #Gjatë – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

#Md-Mdv→ dM-dMv > #Shkurt – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

#Md-dv → d-dMv > #Gjatë – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

#Md-dv → d-dMv > #Shkurt – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

#Mv-Mv > #Gjatë – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

#Mv-Mv > #Shkurt – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

#M-Mv > #Gjatë – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

>#M-Mv > #Shkurt – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

#d-dMv > #Gjatë – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

#d-dMv > #Shkurt – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

#dMv > #Gjatë – seem correct

#dMv > #Shkurt – seem correct

#Mdv → dMv > #Gjatë – seem correct

#Mdv → dMv > #Shkurt – seem correct

#Mv > #Gjatë – seem correct

#Mv > #Shkurt – seem correct

#Sv-v – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

#Sv4-v2 – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

#Sv4-v2 > #Stinët (1) – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

#Sv4-v2 > #Tremujorët – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

#Sv4-v2 > #Festat – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

#Sv4-v2 > #Stinët (2) – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

#Sv4-v2 > #Stinët (3) – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

Rregullim i formatit të datave – seem correct except for the extraneous parameters

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:52, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Done. I think. Everything all right before I continue with the [Jj]an/[Mm]ar case? - Klein Muçi (talk) 18:58, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

It would appear so.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:23, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

So how will the case sensitive Jan/Mar regexes look like?

Like this:

(r"(\{\{\s*cit[aeio][^\}]*\|\s*(?:publication\-|air\-?)?date\s*=\s*)(\d{1,2}) +Jan +(\d{4}) +[\-–] +(\d{1,2}) +Jan +(\d{4})", r"\1\2 jan \3 – \4 jan \5")

Or like this:

(r"(\{\{\s*cit[aeio][^\}]*\|\s*(?:publication\-|air\-?)?date\s*=\s*)(\d{1,2}) +[Jj]an +(\d{4}) +[\-–] +(\d{1,2}) +[Jj]an +(\d{4})", r"\1\2 jan \3 – \4 jan \5") - Klein Muçi (talk) 22:23, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

You want to match 'Jan' but not 'jan', right? [Jj]an will match both 'Jan' and 'jan' so that must not be what you want.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:38, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Finished, I think. Does everything look alright to you? - Klein Muçi (talk) 00:30, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

A cursory glance suggests that it looks correct. I'll take a closer look tomorrow.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:42, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

#dMv – Feb is extraneous

#Mdv → dMv – Feb is extraneous

#M-Mv – incomplete

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:42, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Very attentive. Thank you! Now? - Klein Muçi (talk) 14:01, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

can you please use more informative edit summaries, and have a human check your work?

It seems like these (bot? automated?) edits are pretty careless. For example, this edit (titled the entirely uniformative "cite repair") changed "cite journal" -> "cite web" and deleted important details about the source of the paper. It was a bit improper at the start as this was a conference paper not a journal paper (I'm trying to figure out if the paper was published in the book of the conference proceedings) but eliminating all of the metadata about the editors and the conference in favor of calling this a "research gate" web link is a clear regression. –jacobolus (t) 20:42, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Wholly manual edit. Not careless. I got to Mathematics by way of Category:CS1 maint: multiple names: editors list – the rule is one name per name-holding parameter. The article was in that category because of this template:

{{cite journal
 | title=Abstract Cognition and the Nature of Mathematical Proof
 | first=Inês | last=Hipólito | date=August 2015
 | journal=Realism, Relativism, Constructivism
 | editor=Kanzia, Mitterer, and Neges
 | publication-place=Austria | publisher=de Gruyter
 | url=https://www.researchgate.net/publication/280654540_Abstract_Cognition_and_the_Nature_of_Mathematical_Proof
 | access-date=2022-11-05 }}

The template was added to Mathematics by Editor Praemonitus at this edit. When fixing cs1|2 templates, all I have to work from is what is in the en.wiki article and what I can find when I follow various |url=, |doi=, or other links.

At https://www.researchgate.net/publication/280654540 there is no mention of 'journal' (the word appears twice on that page but those are for unrelated articles). Nor is there mention of 'conference'. I chose to make it into a {{cite web}} because I presumed (because of WP:SAYWHEREYOUREADIT) that the ResearchGate source is the source that Editor Praemonitus consulted before adding the {{cite journal}} template to the article. Further, the 'metadata' at https://www.researchgate.net/publication/280654540 is a bit conflicting: two publishers are mentioned: 'Ontos Verlag' and 'de Gruyter'; two dates: 'August 2015' and '2015'. ResearchGate clearly identifies the source as a book so the use of {{cite journal}} is inappropriate; Realism, Relativism, Constructivism is labeled as 'Edition' and does not appear to be a scholarly or academic journal so again, use of {{cite journal}} is inappropriate. Generally, |publisher= and |publication-place= are not included in {{cite journal}} templates so I deleted them; |publication-place= is sometimes useful if/when it is necessary to disambiguate one scholarly or academic journal from another same-named journal (for the most part, the need for that is rare). From what little that I knew about the cited source, it seemed better to cite the source using {{cite web}} than to mis-cite it as a journal.

You and Editor Praemonitus have since significantly improved that citation so, all-in-all, what I did was not a bad thing since it drew your ire (and attention).

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:54, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Another careless edit: [1]. Please set url-status=dead if you're linking to a dead URL. Any time someone's directly linking to an archive.org link, it's probably because the original URL is dead, but you could take the time to check. Apocheir (talk) 00:31, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Not careless; intentional. See the template documentation for |url-status=. Keeping |url-status=dead is not necessary because dead as a value does not change how cs1|2 templates are rendered. Compare these three examples:

without |url-status=:

{{cite book |title=Title |url=//example.com |archive-url=//archive.org |archive-date=2022-11-07}}

Title. Archived from the original on 2022-11-07. – |title= links to the url in |archive-url=

with |url-status=dead:

{{cite book |title=Title |url=//example.com |archive-url=//archive.org |archive-date=2022-11-07 |url-status=dead}}

Title. Archived from the original on 2022-11-07. – |title= links to the url in |archive-url=

with |url-status=live:

{{cite book |title=Title |url=//example.com |archive-url=//archive.org |archive-date=2022-11-07 |url-status=live}}

Title. Archived from the original on 2022-11-07. – |title= links to the url in |url=

Adding |url-status=dead at any time is just adding clutter to the citation. Mimicking, your example:

without |url-status=:

{{cite journal |title=Title |journal=Journal |url=//archive.org}}

"Title". Journal.

with |url-status=dead:

{{cite journal |title=Title |journal=Journal |url=//archive.org |url-status=dead}}

"Title". Journal.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)

If you have enabled maintenance message display, you will see that the {{cite journal}} example with |url-status=dead has a maintenance message: {{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link). Otherwise the with-and-without renderings are exactly the same because |url-status=dead serves no purpose.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 01:08, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

High use

Hi Trappist the monk! In regard to your revert at Template:Cite wikisource/doc, I had removed the HU from the sandbox last September, because all it said was "many pages" and did not give the transclusion count for the root template. This all led to a discussion on my talk page, which led to ongoing improvements to the HU template's support module at Module:Transclusion count. Now when the bare HU template is used, the transclusion count of the root page appears instead of the transclusion count of the sandbox page itself ("many pages"). In addition, editor Jonesey95 is massaging the wording at Module:High-use/sandbox to clarify the application when on sandbox pages. I will stop replacing the removal code with the bare {{High-use}} template until Jonesey95's code goes live, and when that happens we will want the HU template on the sandbox pages so that editors will be reminded of the high-use nature of the root template while making suggested changes in the sandbox. Thank you for catching me though, because I was jumping the gun a little. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 15:15, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Roger that, I'll add to your talk page sometime today.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:53, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

CS1 maint: url-status

Moved to User talk:Bearcat § Category:CS1 maint: url-status‎‎

One discussion in one place.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:28, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

CS1 parameters

Moved to Talk:Tower of London § CS1-Parameters

One discussion in one place please.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:38, 22 November 2022 (UTC) Hi Trappist, do you agree with this editor’s stance here? Looking at this discussion, MJL’s close suggests “In the meantime, any editor should feel free to manually or semi-automatically change unhyphenated parameters into their hyphenated forms while they're doing something else on a page”. There is further discussion below the close, a request of a close review (continued elsewhere) however I have not sighted any material which negates the close. Your thoughts please? I also placed a note here re one of your edits, not sure if you have seen it. Neils51 (talk) 08:32, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

|url-status=dead

Hi Trappist the monk. I've noticed you removing |url-status=dead in a couple of places. Is it no longer required? I thought the behaviour was to point to the live version until it was marked dead, did that change or was I wrong to begin with? -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 14:24, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

|url-status=dead has never been required. When a cs1|2 template has |archive-url=, the value in |url= is presumed to be dead. It has been ever thus. Examples; these two renderings are exactly the same:

{{cite book |title=Title |url=//example.com |archive-url=//archive.org |archive-date=2022-11-27}}

Title. Archived from the original on 2022-11-27.

{{cite book |title=Title |url=//example.com |archive-url=//archive.org |archive-date=2022-11-27 |url-status=dead}}

Title. Archived from the original on 2022-11-27.

To link |title= to a live |url= when the template has |archive-url=, set |url-status=live

{{cite book |title=Title |url=//example.com |archive-url=//archive.org |archive-date=2022-11-27 |url-status=live}}

Title. Archived from the original on 2022-11-27.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:25, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Trappist, somehow I had that back to front in my head. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 15:41, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

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Nomination for deletion of Module:Template parameter doc

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Categories - CS1 foreign language sources

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T324888

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T324889

Hello Trappist! Can you help me clarify something in regard to category naming related to the aforementioned category?

In SqWiki we have

• Kategoria:Vetitë CS1: Burime në anglishte amerikane (en-US);
• Kategoria:Vetitë CS1: Burime në anglishte amerikane (en-us)

The second one is apparently correct according to the module because that's where articles get categorized while the first one remains empty. But we have renamed all categories of the type code-code to follow the paradigm of the first one (code-CODE). Can you tell me more about what's the mechanism at work here? Is one case more correct than the other or is that a matter of preference? Where are changes as this done if anywhere?

Thank you in advance! - Klein Muçi (talk) 12:36, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

sq:Kategoria:Vetitë CS1: Burime në anglishte amerikane (en-us) is the correct form (language tags in the cs1|2 category names are always lowercase). This because MediaWiki language tags do not follow the same rules as IETF language tags so all lowercase provides consistency across all category names regardless of the language tag.

I notice that you have sq:Kategoria:Vetitë CS1: Burime në anglishte amerikane (en) which is incorrect because tag en in {{#language:en|sq}} returns anglisht.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:22, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! Fixed them. I wonder if this list is now "correct", meaning I've created all the needed subcategories. - Klein Muçi (talk) 13:37, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Since you were wondering if sq:Kategoria:Vetitë CS1: Burime në gjuhë të huaj is correct, I spent some time checking Category:CS1 foreign language sources. I deleted five extraneous categories and added notes to Category:CS1 Dari-language sources (fa-af) and Category:CS1 Montenegrin-language sources (sr-me). I also tweaked Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration/sandbox so that it properly categorizes Valencian (Category:CS1 Valencian-language sources (ca) is wrong; should be Category:CS1 Valencian-language sources (ca-valencia)).

As part of this, I noticed that MediaWiki supports prs (preferred) and fa-af for Dari language and cnr (preferred) and sr-me for Montenegrin language so I added notes to Category:CS1 Dari-language sources (fa-af) and Category:CS1 Montenegrin-language sources (sr-me).

I also noticed that MediaWiki supports sr-ec and sr-el. These are supposed to mean:

{{#language:sr-ec|en}} → Serbian (Cyrillic script)

{{#language:sr-el|en}} → Serbian (Latin script)

That seems to me to be non-sensical. Taken at face value as IETF language tags, sr-ec would mean Serbian as spoken in Ecuador (perhaps that's reasonable) but sr-el is erroneous because el is not a valid ISO 3166 region subtag. So, the c and l apparently mean Cyrillic and Latin script; no idea what the e is supposed to mean. I'll file a bug report at phabricator (for whatever that's worth)

So, for the most part, Category:CS1 foreign language sources is mostly correct so you might check your sq:Kategoria:Vetitë CS1: Burime në gjuhë të huaj against it.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:01, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

sigh Looks like I'll have to check that category again then for the sixth time or so. Maybe after your fixes this will be the last time. At least for a while. I appreciate your work a lot, I'm just not that excited because opening ~200 categories one by one, checking their Wikidata links to find the Albanian homologues and doing the needed fixes there and after finishing everything replicating the whole changes in SqQuote as well is so monotonous. But, what to do? These are the kinds of problems when you work globally with big groups of categories, templates, etc. I still shiver a bit when I think that somewhere in EnWiki there are ~90k biology related templates that need to be transported globally somehow. - Klein Muçi (talk) 17:39, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

I started the comparison process 3 times and all those times I messed up. Would it be possible to devise a kind of automatic or semi-automatic tool that compares only the language codes between the 2 categories (that part is identic between languages) and tells me what is missing from where? - Klein Muçi (talk) 23:01, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi auto by copy pasting the category lists into notepad++ or some other text editor with regex?

For the en.wiki category list:

1. remove the sort-key letters ('A', 'B', etc)

   find: [\r\n]+[A-Z]([\r\n]+)

   replace: $1

2. extract language tags:

   find: *CS1.+\-language sources \(([^\)]+)[^\r\n]*

   replace: $1

For the sq.wiki category list:

1. find: *Vetitë CS1: Burime në[^\(]+\(([^\)]+)[^\r\n]*

   replace: $1

Copy each list into a column in a spreadsheet; alpha sort, and compare.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:44, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the detailed steps! Unfortunately I'm stuck at the first regex. It doesn't find anything. Could it be that it is set up wrong? Klein Muçi (talk) 17:08, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

If I copy Category:CS1 foreign language sources#Subcategories to notepad++ my list begins:

A

CS1 Afar-language sources (aa)‎ (empty)

...

CS1 Azerbaijani-language sources (az)‎ (3,866 P)

B

CS1 Bashkir-language sources (ba)‎ (18 P)

...

The regex in step 1 finds the B and removes it (the A isn't found because A is at the top of the page so no preceding newline). You did remember to tell your text editor to use search mode regex, right?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:33, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, yes but I'm stupid. I removed the keys manually and was hoping to extract language tags with that regex. I had totally missed the fact that you had also given me a regex for that. That's why it couldn't find anything. Eyes have been opened. Klein Muçi (talk) 17:43, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

I was able to conclude the work with the categories. This is a bit messy because you need to struggle to keep them synchronized. Even after all the detailed steps and after I had the comparison done, it was still the fact that EnWiki doesn't recognize English versions as foreign languages and SqWiki doesn't recognize Albanian as a foreign language. But... What to do? For now you can call this discussion finished. - Klein Muçi (talk) 18:24, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

URLs in cite book location fields

Hi, was just looking for your opinion on urls being the published location field of cite book templates after coming across a couple of articles linking to the websites of online publishers. Personally I'd vote never having urls in the location field but I understand you're the CS1 expert so I'll defer to your opinion. Mesidast (talk) 23:50, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

{{cite book}} (and all other cs1|2 templates) accept urls only in url-holding parameters (parameters that include '-url' in the parameter name), the insource locator parameters (|page(s)=, |at=, |quote-page(s)=), and |id=. A url in any other parameter should cause cs1|2 templates to emit an External link in |<parameter>= error message.

If you are finding urls in |location= in cs1|2 templates that are not showing an error message, I would like to know where you are seeing that so that I can investigate and fix that problem.

Trappist the monk (talk) 13:07, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Found the article through the number in location field category actually. I imagine it managed to sneak through the external link check since all the links started with "www." and not "https:". This is the edit of me removing them Mesidast (talk) 11:04, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Trappist the monk!

Happy New Year!

Trappist the monk,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
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Re: Module:Canada NTS

I am now adding Wikidata entries for all of the map sheet names in the data module. This is now possible because of the work I undertook over the last nine months to add the entire Canadian Geographical Names Database to Wikidata. --  Denelson83  04:29, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Is this about the discussion we had at User talk:Trappist the monk/Archive 23 § Module:Canada NTS?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:31, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

@Trappist the monk: Yes, it is. Sorry I did not respond immediately, but I was busy with this very task.  Denelson83  04:49, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

References comparison

Hey Trappist! I was thinking something and wasn't sure who to ask beside you. As EnWiki grows evermore resilient in dealing with cite/ref errors and as my homewiki grows evermore dependent on using Content Translation Tool to provide new content, the chance to encounter cite template errors shrinks down because they tend to get fixed in the original article before they have "a chance to spread globally". However there are many cases when a translated article may still be holding on the error while on the original article the error has been fixed (for example, a missing title has been provided in the original article while it is still missing on the "new" one).

Is there any tool that can check for such changes and provide help globally? Basically compare "identic" references in homologue languages and copy what may be missing in the "less updated" version. Many times I "get asked" by error warnings to provide information about sources which neither did I use, nor can I find easily in my country because those were auto-imported from EnWiki. In these cases, it could be easier to go to the homologue article in EnWiki (or whatever the "original" language was) and copy-paste the solution from there instead of searching in the Big Sea of Goo-gle. Maybe a tool that you know exists that can do such a task easier? - Klein Muçi (talk) 13:21, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

If you know the source article – you must if you know that the source article has been 'fixed' – then isn't it a simple case of finding the 'fixed' citation in the source article by Ctrl-F?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:16, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Well, yes but you have to do that many times for a single article and there are many articles waiting for you in a CS1 maint category. :P - Klein Muçi (talk) 14:24, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

List of fossil bird genera edits question in Citation bot

I was trying to ask a question. if you could please redirect it to the proper section, that'd be great, since I don't know where to put it or what to do with it.2600:1700:B570:3BD0:9191:EB6D:913A:8F51 (talk) 01:25, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

The proper place to discuss anything about a wikipedia article is on that article's talk page. In this case, that would be at Talk:List of fossil bird genera.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 01:34, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

A free TOC

Hello from el.wiktionary, thank you for all your help in the previous years. Would you be interested in creating a module for a Table of Contents, free for editors to handle? The idea came to me, for ToCs suitable for wiktionary pages with 2 or more language-sections, where a desired result might look like this (or this in eng: I am not admin in en.wikt, and cannot do much there).
The goal is: to reconstruct TOC as a fully numbered (1.2.1, 1, 2.2.) <ol> in a <table>, so that editors can make easily various styles, toclimits, csses and/or new columns at any desired <li level>.
I know nothing about Lua, css and codes, so please forgive my ignorance: the wikt:el:Module:toc-test (function wikt:el:Template:toc-test#make_table lacks the crucial link.numbering _2, _3 for repetition-of-headings, and I cannot make it (function main)
instead of ==header== (start_level .. header .. end_level)
to become <li id or.. =2>header</li>
If you are ever interested in this subject, and create such a free TOC, it would be great! Thank you for your attention. Sarri.greek (talk) 23:31, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm sure I could hack something but this project doesn't particularly appeal to me. Sorry to disapoint.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:08, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Articles with Abkhazian-language sources (ab)

A tag has been placed on Category:Articles with Abkhazian-language sources (ab) indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:06, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

A barnstar for your efforts

		The Cleanup Barnstar
		Awarded for your unending efforts in tidying up citations in articles. Awarded by Cdjp1 (talk) 1 March 2023

Cdjp1 (talk) 11:19, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

broken template

Template:Infobox papal document appears to be broken. An error reads:

Error: [undefined] Error: {{Lang}}: no text (help): unrecognized language tag: Error: language: {{{language of title}}} not found (help) Error: unrecognized language tag: Error: language: {{{language of title}}} not found

Veverve (talk) 00:26, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

On {{Infobox papal document/sandbox}} yes; on {{Infobox papal document}} no (at least not yet). Explanation at Template talk:Infobox papal document § Template:Language with name/for.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:49, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Unusual language name

Hello, Trappist the Monk!

You are aware of Smallem and the module you've set up that Smallem uses to get its language regexes. I just updated its list of regexes using that and noticed that the script didn't work. When checking what was causing this error, it showed that this line was breaking the overall syntax:

(r"(\{\{\s*cit[aeio][^\}]*\|\s*language\s*=\s*)"У"\ диалектинде\ \(Кытай\)(\s*[\|\}])", r"\1wuu\2"),

This is because of the "y" part. Can you identify what language is that exactly and why does it have an unusual name? Is that a bug? - Klein Muçi (talk) 12:04, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Wuu Chinese in Kyrgyz. Unicode CLDR has that language name at https://unicode-org.github.io/cldr-staging/charts/latest/delta/ky.html#W. Media Wiki agrees:

{{#language:wuu|ky}} → "У" диалектинде (Кытай)

I've tweaked sq:Module:smallem to escape the " characters so that it returns:

(r"(\{\{\s*cit[aeio][^\}]*\|\s*language\s*=\s*)\"У\"\ диалектинде\ \(Кытай\)(\s*[\|\}])", r"\1wuu\2")

This regex works at regex101.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:44, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

And it works for Smallem too. Thank you! - Klein Muçi (talk) 19:19, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Any idea if this is a legitimate change or not? Link - Klein Muçi (talk) 19:49, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

I doubt it. ca is Catalan, a European language; cay is Cayuga, a North American first-nation language. While possible, I suspicion that a source about the Renaissance would not be written in a NA first-nation language...

—Trappist the monk (talk) 20:08, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, but they're both ISO codes. Smallem only converts long language names into ISO codes. First time I see this behavior happening. It must be a bug somewhere in a regex line. - Klein Muçi (talk) 20:22, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Found the culprit.

(r"(\{\{\s*cit[aeio][^\}]*\|\s*language\s*=\s*)Ca(\s*[\|\}])", r"\1cay\2")

This is a false positive (and the first of this kind I've stumbled upon). Any idea if any remedies exist for these cases? Maybe a test can be devised in the module so that such ambiguities get skipped? Also, how does Mediawiki even handle such cases? How does it know if Ca is being used to mean the language name (in whatever language is that) or the ISO code? I'm guessing it depends on what project they are used. - Klein Muçi (talk) 00:21, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Some clue to which language has 'Ca' as a language name may be detectable from the regexes around the 'Ca' → 'cay' regex. At en.wiki we have ga for Irish and Ga language (gaa) so no doubt other similar code/name similarities exist in other languages.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 01:11, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of that. Can a test like what I proposed be devised to skip languages that happen to be ISO codes? Or maybe, if that appears too hard, just skip 2-3 letter language names? That should suffice, no? - Klein Muçi (talk) 01:39, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Maybe a CS1 prop-cat can be used to categorize pages that use such ambiguities? Or do you think that's not needed? - Klein Muçi (talk) 01:51, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

I have hacked sq:Module:smallem so that is skips lowercase language names that are valid language tags but where the language tag does not refer to itself:

lowercase language name 'tiv' matches language tag 'tiv'; tag tiv is the tag for language name Tiv; no skip

lowercase language name 'ga' matches language tag 'ga'; tag ga is the tag for language name Irish; skip

example at sq:Përdoruesi:Trappist the monk/sandbox

—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:23, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Even better than what I asked for! Just one question: Why does the skip message mention the project's name instead of that of the language? (E.g. en.wiki instead of English) - Klein Muçi (talk) 13:43, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Because sq:Module:smallem only works with lists of languages associated with the wikis listed in the interwiki map (more-or-less those listed at List of Wikipedias) which have an interwiki prefix ('en' here, 'sq' there) that is found in MediaWiki's English list of supported languages. For example, there is no Ga-language wikipedia (prefix gaa) even though MediaWiki has support for language tag gaa ({{#language:gaa}} → Ga). There are currently 344 interwikis that Module:smallem has to work through. MediaWiki currently lists 938 languages. Why bother processing those languages that are not associated with some sort of wiki?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:40, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough I suppose. Thank you again! :) - Klein Muçi (talk) 15:07, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Regex help

This (r"<ref(\sname=\"[^\"]*\")?>\s*(\{\{\s*cit[aeio][^\|}]*\}\})+\s*<\/ref>", r""), works in regex101 to catch and remove empty citations. Tried it with citations from here.

However Smallem doesn't do anything to that article no matter how many times it activates. It has done so in the past if you check the history. Any idea what might be going on? - Klein Muçi (talk) 08:51, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Are you running this regex as a case-sensitive or case-insensitive search? If case-sensitive, then change [c] to [Cc]. Nothing else seems to jump out at me.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Case insensitive. I'll try to run deeper tests exactly on that page and maybe see what's going on. :/ - Klein Muçi (talk) 16:26, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

I forced Smallem to target only that page with that specific change and it worked: Diff

Then I forced Smallem to target only that page with all fixes and it stopped working. Then I gradually removed all the changes until I removed the changes that temporarily change the brackets:

(r"\{\{((?!\s*(?:Cite[_\-\s]*(?=arxiv|AV media|AV media notes|biorxiv|book|CiteSeerX|conference|encyclopa?edia|interview|Journal|Magazine|mailing ?list|map|newsgroup|(?:News(?!group|paper))|podcast|press release|report|serial|sign|speech|ssrn|techreport|thesis|Web)|Citation(?=\s*\|)))[^\{\}]*)\}\}", r"__0P3N__\1__CL0S3__"),

(r"([^\{])\{([^\{])", r"\1__L_CURLY__\2"),

(r"([^\}])\}([^\}])", r"\1__R_CURLY__\2"),

Then it worked again.

Any idea now what might be happening? - Klein Muçi (talk) 19:27, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

If your empty citation regex is inside the hide-templates regexes, it is obvious why it doesn't work. The first hide-templates regex converts {{Cito}} to __0P3N__Cito web__CL0S3__; that doesn't match your empty citation regex. You might 'fix' the hide-templates regex by changing (?:Cite to (?:Cit[eo]; don't know if that is a robust fix. Or, move the empty citation regex after the unhide-templates regexes.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:32, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Everything is inside the hide-templates regexes. That makes me wonder if other problems may be coming from this beside the one I just found out. For example, these 3 regexes for removing invisible characters:

(r"(\{\{\s*cit[aeio][^\}]*)(?:\u0080|\u0081|\u0085|\u0093|\u0094|\u0096|\u0098|\u0099|\u009C|\u009E)", r"\1"),

(r"(\{\{\s*cit[aeio][^\}]*)(?:\u0009|\u000A|\u000D|\u00A0|\u200A)", r"\1 "),

(r"(\{\{\s*cit[aeio][^\}]*)\u00AD", r"\1-"),

They, along with other regexes (like the one fixing the extra text in PMC, JFM, MR parameters, the one changing obsolete parameters in new ones, etc.) are all located inside the hide-templates regexes.

Maybe I should change to (?:Cit[aeio] instead like every other regex Smallem uses? - Klein Muçi (talk) 07:48, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

The hide-templates regexes only hide the canonical forms of the cs1|2 templates; wrappers and redirects are hidden (the list to include redirects etc would be prohibitively long). The empty citation regex does not need to be inside the hide-templates regexes. The invisible character and other regexes that you mentioned should work fine for the canonical cs1|2 templates inside the hide-template regexes because those templates aren't hidden.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:37, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Okie-dokie! TY! - Klein Muçi (talk) 20:34, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Splitting discussion for Clitoris

An article that you have edited or that may interest you, (Clitoris), has content that I have proposed to be removed and moved to another article, (Human clitoris). If you are interested, please visit the discussion. Thank you. Peaceray (talk) 05:40, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

CS1 parameter aliases

Hello there!

Can you tell me in which page of the CS1|2 module suite we can set up local aliases for citation templates' parameters? Like making titulli be a correct version for the title, together for title, etc. - Klein Muçi (talk) 12:16, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Two modules Moduli:Citation/CS1/Whitelist and Moduli:Citation/CS1/Configuration:

In ~/Whitelist there are several tables: basic_arguments, numbered_arguments, limited_basic_arguments, limited_numbered_arguments, preprint_arguments, and unique_arguments. |title= is found in basic_arguments and limited_basic_arguments. At the bottom of those tables add ['titulli'] = true,; repeat for all other parameters that you want to alias. If the Albanian alias of an English parameter is the same as the English, omit it – do not make duplicates in the same table.

In ~/Configuration add titulli to the aliases table. aliases is a table of ['<key>'] = <value>, pairs. DO NOT edit the keys. The alias values have two forms of markup. Compare these:

['Title'] = 'title',

['TitleLink'] = {'title-link', 'episode-link', 'episodelink'},

To add titulli, change the title k/v pair from

['Title'] = 'title',

to

['Title'] = {'title', 'titulli'},

To add a |title-link= alias, insert the new alias at the end of the alias list

['TitleLink'] = {'title-link', 'episode-link', 'episodelink', 'titulli-link'},

repeat for all other parameters that you want to alias. Don't forget the quote marks; don't forget the commas.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:42, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Couldn't find a more well-detailed answer. TTM for president! :P Thank you! - Klein Muçi (talk) 14:05, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

CS1 maintenance messages in Slovene Wikipedia

Hello, Trappist the monk. First, I wish to thank you for your highly valuable work on the CS1 modules.

I would kindly ask you for some advice and assistance regarding the implementation of the CS1 modules in the Slovene Wikipedia.

The issue is the following: I have copied and localized the modules, which evidently work as intended, but when 'date_name_auto_xlate_enable' is set to 'true', there are maintenance (maint) messages regarding automatically translated dates displayed on preview in more than one-third of articles (other editors have voiced complaints about that). The CS1/styles.css includes the relevant code to hide them, has the correct content model, and it has been added to Citation/CS1, but it evidently does not have the intended effect. If this is of any relevance, I have figured out that styles.css gets loaded in articles (it is listed among the used modules there), but not on Citation/CS1 (there, it is not listed among the used modules).

Could you please take a look at sl:Modul:Citation/CS1 and fix whatever needs to be fixed for the maintenance messages to be hidden on preview per default? --TadejM ^{my talk} 13:19, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

The preview message for auto-date translation is there for a reason: date translation is imperfect. The maintenance messages are emitted so that editors can correct the dates that were translated if there is a problem. You can, if you must, suppress the maintenance message by commenting out line 3091 in sl:Modul:Citation/CS1. That will suppress the maintenance message but will also prevent Modul:Citation/CS1 from populating sl:Kategorija:Vzdrževanje_CS1:_samodejni_prevod_datuma.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:40, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your prompt reply. I understand that the date translation is imperfect, but would actually prefer keeping the category and hiding the maintenance messages for all users who have not enabled them in their CSS. Most users only see them as a nuisance and don't want to deal with this. Anyway, having dates localised correctly is more important than having the maintenance category. As such, I will enable 'date_name_auto_xlate_enable' and comment out the said line. --TadejM ^{my talk} 15:01, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Update: I think I "killed" the task trying to suppress the message and separate the message from the category. The relevant category now contains 74 articles even though there should be much more, the job queue is 0 and nothing changes no matter what I do with the code. --TadejM ^{my talk} 22:03, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm not at all clear about what it is that you are telling me. What do you mean by "killed" the task? What task? Whatever you have done, the preview message Ena ali več predlog {{cite web}} ima sporočila o vzdrževanju; sporočila so lahko skrita (pomoč) is still showing up in the preview warning box and the {{cite web}}: Vzdrževanje CS1: samodejni prevod datuma (povezava) messages are rendered when user css enables them. So it looks to me like you haven't actually accomplished anything. And why are you experimenting with the live module suite. Experiments should be conducted in the sandboxen; that's why we have sandboxen...

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:34, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

It is hard to test this in sandbox with the modules of such complexity if the changes are only visible in live articles and after some time when these are updated. I think the updates have been abandoned as there were initially over 50,000 articles in this category. You're correct though that I still haven't managed to get the category applied without the message being shown. --TadejM ^{my talk} 01:34, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Nonsense. That is why we have ~/testcases pages. I commonly create example templates in my sandbox and then test against those so that I don't disrupt millions of articles while developing new code (see Special:Permalink/1149332740 as an example).

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:07, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

CS1 error on Homotherium

Hello, I'm Qwerfjkl (bot). I have automatically detected that this edit performed by you, on the page Homotherium, may have introduced referencing errors. They are as follows:

• A "missing title" error. References show this error when they do not have a title. Please edit the article to add the appropriate title parameter to the reference. (Fix | Ask for help)

Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can report it to my operator. Thanks, Qwerfjkl (bot) (talk) 14:20, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

CS1 error on X-inefficiency

Hello, I'm Qwerfjkl (bot). I have automatically detected that this edit performed by you, on the page X-inefficiency, may have introduced referencing errors. They are as follows:

• A "missing title" error. References show this error when they do not have a title. Please edit the article to add the appropriate title parameter to the reference. (Fix | Ask for help)

Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can report it to my operator. Thanks, Qwerfjkl (bot) (talk) 14:23, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Cite repair

I've no idea what I did wrong. I used a built in citation template (ref toolbar perhaps?). I've never seen that happen before. I tried several times. Thanks for fixing it. So fast! Doug Weller talk 13:59, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

So there is the lesson for you: Never trust the RefToolbar of Visual Editor automated citation fillers. They often make a hash of it; not so much themselves, but they rely on metadata that they scrape from the source website. If you do a Right click → View page source (windows; don't know about macs) at https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/25/politics/kfile-monica-crowley/index.html and search for Kaczynski, you'll find:

• authors: 'Andrew Kaczynski,Nathan McDermott',
• author: 'Andrew Kaczynski,Nathan McDermott',
• cap_author: 'Andrew Kaczynski,Nathan McDermott',
• <meta name="author" content="Andrew Kaczynski,Nathan McDermott">

there are others but I suspect that RefToolbar fetches author name(s) from one of these, particularly the last one. Because CNN have chosen to put both author names into a single container, RefToolbar attempts to shoehorn both of them into the Last name / First name fields of the News Citation (RefToolBar) form. You can inspect the results of an autofill-by-url and make adjustments. For example, to make this citation:

<ref>{{cite news |last1=Kaczynski |first1=Andrew |last2=McDermott |first2=Nathan |title=Treasury pick Monica Crowley spread Obama smears: 'Can he be both loyal to Islam and loyal to the United States?' |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/25/politics/kfile-monica-crowley/index.html |work=CNN |date=25 July 2019 |language=en}}</ref>

Kaczynski, Andrew; McDermott, Nathan (25 July 2019). "Treasury pick Monica Crowley spread Obama smears: 'Can he be both loyal to Islam and loyal to the United States?'". CNN.

I put the CNN url in the URL field and clicked the quizzing glass. When autofill was done, I clicked the green + adjacent to the First name field and then copied the various first and last names to the appropriate Last name and First name fields. I also tweaked the Title field to get rid of the {{!}} CNN Politics because that text is not part of the CNN article's title. I clicked preview to see the results and then clicked insert and done.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:28, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

CS1 error on Phrynocephalus persicus

Hello, I'm Qwerfjkl (bot). I have automatically detected that this edit performed by you, on the page Phrynocephalus persicus, may have introduced referencing errors. They are as follows:

• A "missing title" error. References show this error when they do not have a title. Please edit the article to add the appropriate title parameter to the reference. (Fix | Ask for help)

Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can report it to my operator. Thanks, Qwerfjkl (bot) (talk) 15:33, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

CS1 error on Little Dorrit (1987 film)

Hello, I'm Qwerfjkl (bot). I have automatically detected that this edit performed by you, on the page Little Dorrit (1987 film), may have introduced referencing errors. They are as follows:

• A "bare URL and missing title" error. References show this error when they do not have a title. Please edit the article to add the appropriate title parameter to the reference. (Fix | Ask for help)

Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can report it to my operator. Thanks, Qwerfjkl (bot) (talk) 14:20, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Can't ping you

Trappist, how does one go about giving you a ping in a discussion on a Talk page, as for whatever reasons, your user page does not exist? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:03, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Even though I have no user page, you can still ping me just as you would ping any other editor. An existing user page is not a prerequisite for pings.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 21:41, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Your current effort within the Jason Flom article is chill

Thanks for those minor powerful internal updates Trappist the monk.. Mia Melona (talk) 20:09, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Cardinals created by Francis

You recently removed the variable "url-status=dead" from two citations on Cardinals created by Francis, namely for these two urls:

• https://cruxnow.com/church/2015/03/20/in-rare-step-scottish-prelate-caught-in-sex-scandal-quits-as-cardinal/
• http://www.catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2018/cardinal-stats-pope-makes-college-more-international-not-much-younger.cfm

But I find both of these URLs unreachable. Are you certain that you can access them? (Perhaps you don't realize that "dead" refers to these URLs and not to the associated ones that begin https://web.archive.org ? That doesn't seem possible now that I've glanced at an archive of your talk page.)

Thanks. Rutsq (talk) 20:24, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

When a cs1|2 template has a value assigned to |archive-url=, the template assumes that the value assigned to |url= is dead. Setting |url-access=dead when a cs1|2 template has a value assigned to |archive-url= is unnecessarily redundant so I routinely remove |url-access=dead. To prove that statement, here is one of the cited sources you mention; first with and then without |url-access=dead:

{{cite news|last1=Allen Jr.|first1=John L.|title=In rare step, Scottish prelate caught in sex scandal quits as cardinal|url=http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2015/03/20/in-rare-step-scottish-prelate-caught-in-sex-scandal-quits-as-cardinal/|access-date=9 July 2018|work=Crux|date=20 March 2015|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180710041620/https://cruxnow.com/church/2015/03/20/in-rare-step-scottish-prelate-caught-in-sex-scandal-quits-as-cardinal/|archive-date=10 July 2018|url-status=dead}}

Allen Jr., John L. (20 March 2015). "In rare step, Scottish prelate caught in sex scandal quits as cardinal". Crux. Archived from the original on 10 July 2018. Retrieved 9 July 2018.

{{cite news|last1=Allen Jr.|first1=John L.|title=In rare step, Scottish prelate caught in sex scandal quits as cardinal|url=http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2015/03/20/in-rare-step-scottish-prelate-caught-in-sex-scandal-quits-as-cardinal/|access-date=9 July 2018|work=Crux|date=20 March 2015|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20180710041620/https://cruxnow.com/church/2015/03/20/in-rare-step-scottish-prelate-caught-in-sex-scandal-quits-as-cardinal/|archive-date=10 July 2018}}

Allen Jr., John L. (20 March 2015). "In rare step, Scottish prelate caught in sex scandal quits as cardinal". Crux. Archived from the original on 10 July 2018. Retrieved 9 July 2018.

Notice that the two renderings are identical.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 20:42, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Surya siddhanta

Recenty an anonymous user 223.228.254.232 had vandalised the wiki page of Surya siddhanta please rectify it Cvbnftkztjg (talk) 14:14, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

The place to discuss that is at Talk:Surya Siddhanta, not here. If the IP editor has vandalized the article, you may revert the edit(s). Be prepared to discuss (at the talk page) if your revert is in-turn reverted.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:20, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Active disagreement

I have added Talk:MVS#recent edit to Wikipedia:Third opinion#Active disagreements. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 12:51, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Helping the old syntax highlighter ignore unclosed br and hr tags

The developer of the old syntax highlighter finally relented and added a way for it to recognize unclosed br and hr tags. See the very end of User:Jonesey95/vector.js for the code. It has changed my life: I no longer need to add a / to br and hr tags to make the syntax highlighter work. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:56, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Not much of a fix if everyone using the highlighter has to make this addition to their personal .js so I suspect that I will continue to change these tags to the xhtml form until the fix is incorporated into the main script.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 11:26, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

My need to work with please help me

chek 2402:8100:3183:FD9:5505:8D45:77E1:D955 (talk) 04:52, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

revert to original text

Hi - just wondering why the additions i made to the rona 1892 page have not been accepted - they all related to the rona and its history

if i can do any thing to make them acceptable please let me know

thanks

Justin LeSueur

Christchurch NZ Kiwimotobecane (talk) 21:34, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Properly, an en.wiki article is a summary of material written by writers wholly independent of the subject. Such material must have been published in reliable sources with a reputation for editorial integrity; newspapers, magazines, journals, books, etc. Editors at en.wiki read those sources and write the summary providing inline citations to identify where the facts in the summary originate. Sixteen thousand bytes of text transcribed from [Albert LeSueur's] typed notes is clearly not written by an independent writer – LeSueur as owner of Rona cannot be said to be independent of Rona – nor have the typed notes been published by a reliable source. LeSueur owns the copyright to the typed notes so reproducing them here is a violation of his copyright. Remember that text published on en.wiki may be used by anyone for for any purpose so it is important to make sure that en.wiki does not ever violate an author's copyrights.

This same applies to images. For example, the photographer who made the photograph in this image owns the copyright. Yes, it is possible that the photographer as a condition of employment yielded the copyright to an employer. Yes, copyrights expire, and the laws that govern when that happens are complex and geographically specific. I don't know that you can claim to be the copyright holder. Don't be surprised if someday, someone deletes that image as a copyright violation.

See WP:COPYRIGHT (policy), WP:RELIABLE (content guide), WP:VERIFY (policy)

Did I answer your questions?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:36, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply- as the grandson of Albert Lesueur I now own the copyright of his notes as well as the images that i uploaded (the 1944 image was taken by my grandmother). I understand the need for reliable and verifiable data - i was merely trying to portray some of the history as captured by Albert LeSueur of the Rona which other people may be interested in at some stage. any thoughts on how to proceed?

regards Justin LeSueur Kiwimotobecane (talk) 04:37, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Because of your relationship to Albert Lesueur, en.wiki considers you to have a conflict of interest; see WP:COI. If you wish to make other edits to Rona (1892), it would be best for you to make edit requests on the article's talk page.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:05, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Can this be deleted?

Hi Trappist, I hope you're well. I realized that I don't need both User:Aza24/vector.js and User:Aza24/common.js, so transferred everything to the latter. Can you delete User:Aza24/vector.js? I'm not sure how to place a template requesting deletion on the page. Best – Aza24 (talk) 16:03, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

done.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:20, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! Aza24 (talk) 19:47, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Note

please check grammar on this locked page, i first noticed striking infobox error (2th of 20), also dead website

CSA Steaua București (football) 93.143.112.14 (talk) 18:20, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

The best place to discuss issues related to an article is on the article's talk page. In this case, you should raise these issues at Talk:CSA Steaua București (football).

—Trappist the monk (talk) 18:48, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

would you believe how many users dont pay attention, in cases of locals editing on english wiki (romanians for example); so i try to find experienced native speakers, sorry if you cant help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.143.112.14 (talk) 19:13, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Template:Dizionario Biografico degli Italiani

Hi Trappist. I've been trying to clean up a few SFN errors/maintenance messages. When I had a go at Cesare Caporali, Cesare Crispolti and Cesare Orsini I hit problems with the {{DBI}} template. Using the inspector it appears to be emitting a valid CITEREF, for example <cite id="CITEREFPignatti2013" class="citation book cs1 cs1-prop-foreign-lang-source">...</cite>, but it is not linked to by the reference and generates a "sfn error: no target: CITEREFPignatti2013" error. Perhaps you could have a look when you have time? I realise that this will only affect a few pages (330 according to the header) so will be a low priority issue. Thanks. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:13, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Is the help text at Category:Harv and Sfn template errors not helpful?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:04, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointer, I'm adding {{sfn whitelist}} to the affected pages and reporting {{DBI}} as requested. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 13:21, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Citation bot

I didn't realize the understanding of pretty basic parameters over there was so poor. I wonder how worried we should be about this, especially given the kind of defiant "the documentation is wrong" attitude?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  02:22, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Hasn't it been ever thus? I suppose that the 'pages' opinion is aggravated by all of the tools that use citoid and which scrape journal publisher sites for metadata. Those sites almost invariably include the article's page range so that is what ends up in {{cite journal}}. Also, some have, harking back to olden days, claimed that it is necessary to have the article's complete page range so that readers might get a copy of a journal article from Madam Librarian (or one of her menials). That may be true for really obscure journals; not so much for current and less obscure journals.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:45, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Your revert

Special:Diff/1167458625 I replaced a 2019 population estimate with the 2020 census population. Isn't this the right thing to do? Kk.urban (talk) 21:49, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Your edit looks primarily like deletion of referenced material along with the accompanying references. Your edit summary: upd does not explain the deletion. The combination of these things is typical of vandalism so I reverted you.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:02, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I removed outdated referenced material. Is it vandalism? If not, can you restore the edit? Kk.urban (talk) 22:08, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't think that I will. The stuff that you removed is at least cited and following the attached reference to a XLSX spreadsheet that supported the 2019 estimates was not difficult. The reference at the bottom of the {{US Census population}} template may support your 2020 addition along with all of the other numbers in that template but finding out where the supporting data are is sufficiently difficult to be hostile to our readers; I gave up after about ten minutes. Mayhaps you are more familiar with how the US census organize their website and can quickly locate the historical population tallies from the decennial censuses. Providing a better source for that template would certainly be a win.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:41, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I added the reference to the quickfacts page which contains the 2020 population. I'm not sure if there's a single page that will list the population from every census since 1870. There was nothing like that on the page before I edited it. Kk.urban (talk) 22:54, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Better. Thanks.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:05, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

help

Hi, could you help fix the cite errors at Musitano crime family. Thanks. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 18:56, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

You don't need me to do that. sfn error: multiple targets (2×): CITEREFSchneider2009: choose one to keep.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:05, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Folksonomy

Hello Trappist the monk, would you know if Commons:Category:Folkscanomy has to do with this article? My knowledge of the English language is far from perfect. Hence my question. Thanks. Lotje (talk) 05:13, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

The content of Category:Folkscanomy appears to me to be a rather random collection of Internet Archive book scans. If there is a connection between :Commons:Category:Folkscanomy and en:Folksonomy, it is not obvious to me what that connection is. Maybe this is a question better asked at Commons:Help desk (I notice that your question at Commons:Category talk:Folkscanomy has gone unanswered...).

—Trappist the monk (talk) 11:59, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks

I read your reply at the citation talk page and it struck me how precisely and carefully worded it was. I'd give you a Clarity Barnstar but I can't be bothered to find out if there is such a thing and also it seems that barnstars have died a slow death anyhow. Best,  Mr.choppers | ✎  13:37, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Template:Cite medRxiv/doc

Hi,

There is a CS1 error on this page that I don't know how to fix. It recently appeared on the list of CS1 errors with unsupported parameters, I believe because you moved the page, because it wasn't there before.

Ira

Ira Leviton (talk) 19:27, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Unavoidable transient due to cs1|2 module-suite update.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:33, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

"work=" invalid?

I was totally blindsided by this one as the chapter title of the book is not the work itself. I have been using 'work=" for dozens of pages now when using "cite book", how am I supposed to correct all those errors? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:50, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

|work= is an alias of the periodical parameters: |journal=, |magazine=, |newspaper=, etc. None of those have ever been valid {{cite book}} parameters – they are not documented in the {{cite book}} template documentation. For {{cite book}}, |title= gets the book's title; |chapter= or |section= get the title of the chapter or section that you are citing. If you are linking to the chapter or section then |chapter-url= or |section-url=...

—Trappist the monk (talk) 01:12, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

This is very strange as all of a sudden "{{cite book}}: |work= ignored" started appearing. When I made 5 sen coin for example, none of those markups were there. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:24, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Only all of a sudden because yesterday (my time) I updated the Module:Citation/CS1 module suite. The discussion about this issue is at Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 88 § Periodical title parameter in cite book and the announcement of the pending update is at Help talk:Citation Style 1 § module suite update 12–13 August 2023.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:28, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Knowledgekid87: The Citation Style 1 modules are updated, fixed, and enhanced on an ongoing basis. The errors were present before a few days ago, but the module code did not tag them with error messages or categories until recently. I have fixed the citation errors in that article. Many of the {{cite book}} citations were using |title= and |work= when they should have been using |chapter= and |title=. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:32, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Surya siddhanta

In the Wikipedia article of Surya siddhanta it is mentioned that It treats Sun as stationary globe around which earth and other planets orbit. But the reference doesn't even mention it. Kudiophi clopsvimbi (talk) 16:09, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

I have edited Surya Siddhanta exactly once wherein I fixed a malformed {{cite news}} template; this edit. If you believe that the article can be improved, please do so.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:42, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Reverts

I think you are mistaken, its not a chapter in a book but two separate books. Subsequently I discovered other editors have changed work to series which I have also started using Lyndaship (talk) 15:00, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

If it (you don't say which 'it') is really two books then two {{cite book}} templates are required. Amazon has a good photo of Der U-Boot-Krieg, 1939-1945: Deutsche U-Boot-Verluste von September 1939 bis Mai 1945. From the photo, it appears that this source is not two books.

For the other, German Warships 1815–1945 is the title, not the series. 'U-boats and Mine Warfare Vessels' is really the volume name or possibly the subtitle (see at Amazon) so we are both wrong about that one. mea culpa. I would choose subtitle so |title=German Warships 1815–1945: U-boats and Mine Warfare Vessels |volume=2.

Unless you object to the subtitle form, I shall delete |chapter=U-boats and Mine Warfare Vessels and change |title=German Warships 1815–1945 to |title=German Warships 1815–1945: U-boats and Mine Warfare Vessels in the pages that I have edited.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:25, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for the shortness of notification and inadequately explaining but I wanted to get your attention before you went at them full tilt. On the first book you mentioned Der U-Boot-Krieg, 1939-1945: Deutsche U-Boot-Verluste von September 1939 bis Mai 1945 if you look at the amazon link you provided you will see it its title it says 5 Bde Bd 4 ie 5 volumes book 4. The other volumes cover such things as Commanders and Knights cross winners and do appear in some articles with a different isbn. On German Warships 1815–1945 I agree with your view as to the correct title and am quite happy if you want to change those you have edited as your suggest however unless using |title = U-boats and Mine Warfare Vessels |series=German Warships 1815–1945 is totally wrong I would prefer not to change them as there are some 1600 examples. Lyndaship (talk) 16:57, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

I think that using |series= for either of these citations as you did at German submarine U-507 (diff) is totally wrong because in both cases, the main title of the source (Der U-Boot-Krieg and German Warships 1815–1945) is in |series= (originally |work=) when it should be in |title=.

Since you appear to think that |title=German Warships 1815–1945: U-boats and Mine Warfare Vessels is an acceptable title for that source, it seems to me that |title=Der U-Boot-Krieg, 1939-1945: Deutsche U-Boot-Verluste von September 1939 bis Mai 1945 is a likewise acceptable title for the other source. The latter is a bit more complicated because |trans-title= also needs fixing (|trans-title=German U-boat losses from September 1939 to May 1945 → |trans-title=The U-Boat War, 1939-1945: German U-boat losses from September 1939 to May 1945).

This search finds about 1300 articles with |work=German Warships 1815–1945.

This search finds about 750 articles with |work=Der U-Boot-Krieg

Using awb to filter both searches for duplicates we end up with a list of about 1020 articles.

Looking for |series=German Warships 1815–1945 we add about 230 articles.

Looking for |series=Der U-Boot-Krieg we add about 300 more.

Now the total, filtered for duplicates is about 1330 articles; easily fixable with awb.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:11, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for replying in detail. The fact that both these books have a volume number makes me believe that they are indeed part of a series and therefore my edits are correct. I am therefore unwilling to change my edits unless you can show that I am wrong by policy or by obtaining consensus elsewhere. If however you decide to change them to your preferences I will not object providing the |work = parameter which was causing the CS1 error is resolved Lyndaship (talk) 09:34, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I think of a series as a group of books on related themes, like Helion's Asia@War series, not the separate volumes of a single work. One example that I have at hand is the British official "History of the Great War" (series) of which there are five volumes of "Naval Operations" (one book (work) in five volumes). One thing that I think that I differ from both of you is that I don't treat the title of the individual volume as a subtitle as I think it's clearer to use the volume field instead, forex title= Naval Operations|vol=I: To the Battle of the Falklands December 1914. I will say that I've never understood exactly what the work field meant for.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 12:32, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I've started a discussion on how to best handle subtitles for multi-volume books on Help talk:Citation Style 1 that might be of interest.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:10, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Responded at Help talk:Citation Style 1 § Subtitle locations for multi-volume books.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:03, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm perplexed. You seem to be saying one thing and doing another. On the one hand, you say that [these sources] are indeed part of a series but on the other hand you create |title= from |work= and |title=. There are about 230 articles that have |title=German Warships 1815–1945, U-boats and Mine Warfare. Random sampling of the articles in the first 20 search results shows that that |title= parameter was your work.

What you have done in those articles is what I would do except instead of a comma, I would use a colon. So, apparently we agree despite your claim to the contrary above.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:03, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Indeed I started out doing it that way but then discovered that another editor had changed |work= to |series= and I thought thats a better way of doing it so changed my AWB settings. Once I had done the remainder I intended to return to those to change them but your reverts made me leave everything in abeyance Lyndaship (talk) 16:09, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Help about fixing a citation

Hello, TTM!

Can you help me solve a rather stubborn problem? I have this article which shows the category for a missing language parameter in its citations (Gabime CS1: Mungon parametri i gjuhës). However I can't really understand where that categorization is really coming from. The references themselves don't show any language errors (only date and name ones). I thought the category was added manually but it isn't so at this point I'm not sure what my next step should be. Is there any quick way to investigate such cases, to quickly learn what template is bringing a certain category in a page? - Klein Muçi (talk) 10:53, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

This reference comes from sq:Stampa:Kombëtaret në futboll |FIFA Rank= which gets its value from sq:Stampa:FIFA World Rankings which calls sq:Moduli:SportsRankings which loads sq:Moduli:SportsRankings/data/FIFA World Rankings. In Moduli:SportsRankings/data/FIFA World Rankings at line 9 is a table data.source{}. At Line 12, add a comma and then a new line 13: language = 'xx' where 'xx' is the language tag for the source (for me, I see the source in English, might be Albanian for you). Repeat this for all of the data subpages listed at sq:Moduli:SportsRankings/doc (line numbers will vary).

In Moduli:SportsRankings at line 73 add language = data.source['language'], (be sure to include the comma)

The infobox in Kombëtarja shqiptare e futbollit has this:

| Elo Rank           = {{World Football Elo Ratings|Albania}}
| Elo max            = 32
| Elo max date       = 1946
| Elo min            = 118
| Elo min date       = Dhjetor 1994

which is the source for this reference. But, those parameters are not supported by the infobox template, the 'Check for unknown parameters' test at the bottom of the template notwithstanding.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:48, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for being able to get to the bottom of that chain of modules and templates! I made the needed changes and the error categories are no more. I'm not exactly sure what should be my course of action about the infobox. Just remove those parameters together with their values?

Some tangentially related questions out of personal curiosity (which you may choose to ignore):

1. Is that chain of modules the most efficient way to handle this subject? It looked a bit convoluted and also required changes every once in a while for the link. The average user usually tries to stay away from modules.
2. Is there a native way or a tool that can determine where a category is being transcluded from in a page?

- Klein Muçi (talk) 00:59, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

If the Elo stats are commonly used (I don't know because I couldn't care less about football) then perhaps the best thing to do is add support for them in the infobox template. I notice that the en.wiki {{Infobox national football team}} doesn't support the Elo stats but Albania national football team has the same Elo parameters as sq:Kombëtarja shqiptare e futbollit (with the same 'Check for unknown parameters' problem). There is some discussion at Template talk:Infobox national football team § History of FIFA rankings which went nowhere so far as I can see. In the template's edit history there are a series of back and forth edits finally ending 12 December 2020 with support removed per a consensus at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 137 § Removing Elo from infobox template. At en.wiki, {{World Football Elo Ratings}} is used in 235 articles which suggests that the raw data are still in the articles. That raw data should be removed and the 'Check for unknown parameters' test amended.

The chain of modules is relatively straight forward; it just seems convoluted.

I don't know of any tool, other than your own brain, that can determine which something added a category.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:53, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for all the information and help! - Klein Muçi (talk) 15:23, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Always precious

Ten years ago, you were found precious. That's what you are, always. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:26, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Naranag

some anonymous user had recently vandalised the Wikipedia article on narang Myuoh kaka roi (talk) 02:38, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I know nothing about Naranag and only visited that article with a semiautomated script to fix certain cs1|2 template errors. If you think that the article has been vandalized, revert the alleged vandalism or discuss on that article's talk page.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Module:Lang

Hi, on bnwiki, {{Langx|en|A test|translit=এ টেস্ট}} gives "English: A test". For enwiki, it makes sense, but for bnwiki it should be "English: A test, romanized: এ টেস্ট". How can i fix it? Thanks. আফতাবুজ্জামান (talk) 03:54, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Romanization, as I understand it, is conversion from one writing system (Bengali, for example) to the Roman or Latin writing system:

{{Langx|bn|এ টেস্ট|translit=A test}} → Bengali: এ টেস্ট, romanized: A test

Transcribing or transliterating 'A test' from the Latin writing system to the Bengali writing system is not Romanization.

You can tweak the test at bn:মডিউল:Lang#L-1242 to be just if is_set (args.translit) then which will cause the module to return something like this:

{{Langx|en|A test|translit=এ টেস্ট}} → ইংরেজি: A test, প্রতিবর্ণীকৃত: এ টেস্ট

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:49, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Worked. Thank you. আফতাবুজ্জামান (talk) 16:21, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

All archived web citations have errors

Hi on https://or.wikipedia.org all the archived citations are showing errors. All are archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch|Help:CS1 errors#|archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch errors. I have checked and the archive-date and the archive-url date are same. seems like some module issue as it appeared suddenly after some import. hope you can help with this.

Here is an example article https://or.wikipedia.org/wiki/ବି._ଆର._ଆମ୍ବେଦକର

https://or.wikipedia.org/wiki/ଅଶ୍ୱିନୀ_ବୈଷ୍ଣବ

I have copied same citations on English Wikipedia and it doesn't show any error. Thank you. Jnanaranjan Sahu (ଜ୍ଞାନ) ^talk 06:50, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

I've replaced archive_date_check() in or:ମଡ୍ୟୁଲ:Citation/CS1/Date validation so that the error messaging works correctly.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:06, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you @Trappist the monk. Will it be overwritten if we import the module in future? Jnanaranjan Sahu (ଜ୍ଞାନ) ^talk 09:59, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes. There is a new version in the en.wiki sandboxen that emits an augmented error message and supports internationalization. The change is discussed at Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 89 § |archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:25, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Template:harvc

Hi. Go to https://bn.wikipedia.org/wiki/ইসলাম#cite_note-66 & click on "এনসাইক্লোপিডিয়া অফ ইসলাম (২য় সংস্করণ) (২০১২)". It goes to correct place. I don't know why it also says "harvc: invalid |year=. (help) Harvc error: no target: CITEREFএনসাইক্লোপিডিয়া_অফ_ইসলাম_(২য়_সংস্করণ)২০১২ (help)". Can you help please. আফতাবুজ্জামান (talk) 18:41, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Likely because of line 91. Module:Harvc was not written with i18n in mind. You might change line 91 to:

y = mw.ustring.match (year, pattern); -- y is the year portion

You'll also have to add Bengali patterns to account for nd, n.d., and c. in the patterns table at line 81.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:27, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I did. It removed "invalid |year=" error but "Harvc error: no target: CITEREFএনসাইক্লোপিডিয়া_অফ_ইসলাম_(২য়_সংস্করণ)২০১২" still there. আফতাবুজ্জামান (talk) 20:29, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

There are probably several reasons for that:

1. bn:মডিউল:Footnotes/anchor_id_list#L-188 same sort of i18n issue as described above
2. you have renamed the cs1|2 templates. bn:মডিউল:Footnotes/anchor id list is looking for template names in the form {{cite ...}} or {{citation}} and does not recognize {{বই উদ্ধৃতি}}.
3. you are mixing Bengali with English parameter names; ~/anchor id list understands |ref={{harvid|এনসাইক্লোপিডিয়া অফ ইসলাম (২য় সংস্করণ)|২০১২}} but does not understand |সূত্র={{harvid|এনসাইক্লোপিডিয়া অফ ইসলাম (২য় সংস্করণ)|২০১২}}

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:24, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

date = rvalue:match (pattern); should be date = mw.ustring.match (rvalue, pattern);? For 2 & 3, can you help? bn:মডিউল:Footnotes/anchor_id_list#L-483 ref = template:match ('|%s*(সূত্র|ref)%s*=%s*(%b{})');? If you want, you can directly edit Bengali module. That would be great. আফতাবুজ্জামান (talk) 20:57, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, I've been distracted by real life and other stuff.

Yeah, date = mw.ustring.match (rvalue, pattern);.

Lua does not understand the regex alternation (| pipe) operator. You might rewrite line 483 like this:

ref = template:match ('|%s*ref%s*=%s*(%b{})') or mw.ustring.match (template, '|%s*সূত্র%s*=%s*(%b{})');

other assignments to ref in the vicinity of line 483 must be rewritten similarly.

Template name aliases must be listed in bn:মডিউল:Footnotes/anchor_id_list/data.

Alas, I can't read Bengali so someone who does would be better suited to that task.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:24, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Worked. Thank you very much. আফতাবুজ্জামান (talk) 22:13, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Parsing citations for source reviewing

Hi -- I hope you don't mind a coding question; I know you're an expert on the citation templates, and I was hoping you could point me in the right direction. I use User:Lingzhi2/reviewsourcecheck-sb.js, which is a great help when doing source reviews at FAC. It identifies things like inconsistent use of publisher locations, but there are things it doesn't find, such as some cite web uses that use publisher while others use work/website (though that can be acceptable). It also has some problems. To speed up source reviewing I've been thinking about creating a short program (probably in Python, since I know it) to extract all the cite templates for a given article, parse them, and report on likely inconsistencies, and anything a source reviewer at FAC might otherwise have to check manually and tediously. For example, it might report that domain names such as nytimes.com have been used instead of website names such as The New York Times, or that some book citations are missing ISBNs. Before putting any work into it, though, I realize that I would presumably be reinventing the wheel if I wrote code to parse the templates. Do you have any thoughts about a better way to go about such a tool than parsing the wikitext with offline code? Thanks for any advice. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:28, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

All {{cite web}} templates should have |website= because |publisher= for that template is not included in the citation's metadata. That means that readers who consume an FA article's citations using reference management software (Zotero and the like) will not get the website's name.

I wrote a template {{ref info}} that perhaps does some of what you want. It doesn't attempt the things that you are describing and is, of course, limited to the standard template time and size limits... Perhaps there is something there that can give you ideas for your tool.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:40, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks; will take a look at that. Re cite web: FA standards currently allow users to use, for example, publisher instead of website if there is a consistent approach. For example, Angel Reese uses website for the website of newspapers, and otherwise uses publisher only. This is a minority approach but it's not rare. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:10, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

url-status question

Hi, your edit to Carlos Castaneda caught my attention. I thought that when we add archive-url/archive-date to a deadlink ref, we had to include url-status=dead, but I see that you removed url-status from two refs and they seem to display fine. Has url-status been deprecated, and we shouldn't add it anymore? Schazjmd (talk) 17:40, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

|url-status= is not deprecated but |url-status=dead is not needed when |url= is dead and the cs1|2 template has |archive-url=. |url-status= is a switch that tells cs1|2 which of |url= or |achive-url= should be used to link |title=. In short:

• a cs1|2 template with |archive-url= and |url-status= omitted or empty treats |url= as if it were dead so links |title= with |archive-url=; this is the default condition
• a cs1|2 template with |archive-url= and |url-status=dead treats |url= as if it were dead so links |title= with |archive-url=; in this case, |url-status=dead is superfluous
• a cs1|2 template with |archive-url= and |url-status=live treats |url= as if it were live so links |title= with |url=

|url-status=dead is not a substitute for {{dead link}}.

I think that all of this is documented at the template documentation for |url-status=. If you can see a way to make that documentation more clear, please do.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 18:04, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

When I learned about archive-url in the past, it stuck in my head that I had to include url-status but you're right, the docs clearly say it's optional. Thanks for explaining! Schazjmd (talk) 18:36, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Your "cite repair" edits keep removing url-status=dead from 404 pages

Example: special:diff/1182667822.

Can you please stop doing that? Including "url-status=dead" is much more explicit communication to human editors than just leaving url-status out entirely. It's important because the internet archive's bot (and various human editors) keep adding archive URLs to still-living pages, so the mere presence of an archive URL is not sufficient to communicate that the original page is dead, but instead what it communicates is "whoever added the archive URL was too lazy to check", which then wastes follow-up effort by other editors manually checking all of these.

–jacobolus (t) 21:58, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

See my posts at Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 93#url-status=dead (and a side-topic about language=en) and just above. |url-status=dead conveys no meaningful information; it is a control switch; nothing more. |url-status=dead is not a substitute for {{dead link}}.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:27, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

conveys no meaningful information – this is not true. url-status=dead clearly communicates that the link is dead. The complete absence of such a parameter does not communicate the same thing. You should not be removing these en masse without community consensus. –jacobolus (t) 22:47, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Have noticed the same activity on Ryan Kavanaugh, and I have to agree with Jacobolus. |url-status=dead changes the order of the original url and the archived url (if available) in citations, thus guiding the reader to the archived url if the original url is indeed dead. This is a useful parameter and it should not be removed in these cases. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 20:12, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

You are mistaken. |url-status=dead does not [change] the order of the original url and the archived url ... in citations. See these examples:

• without |url-status=:

  {{cite book |title=Title |url=https://example.com |archive-url=https://archive.org |archive-date=2023-11-01}}

  Title. Archived from the original on 2023-11-01.

• with |url-status=dead:

  {{cite book |title=Title |url=https://example.com |archive-url=https://archive.org |archive-date=2023-11-01 |url-status=dead}}

  Title. Archived from the original on 2023-11-01.

Notice that both renderings are identical.

• But, if you set |url-status=live, that does change the original- / archived-url order in the rendered citation:

  {{cite book |title=Title |url=https://example.com |archive-url=https://archive.org |archive-date=2023-11-01 |url-status=live}}

  Title. Archived from the original on 2023-11-01.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 20:51, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I guess you're right! The editor in the thread above seems to have had the same misconception. It does feel somewhat counterintuitive to only make one out of two possible parameters optional. Regardless, I appreciate the demonstration; will keep this in mind in my future editing! Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 21:12, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

The output is identical, but the communication to markup-reading human editors is different. –jacobolus (t) 23:45, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Can we skip automatically inserting "Format ISBN" templates everywhere?

Most of the time having the ISBNs at all is less helpful than other metadata for finding books, and I'd personally prefer leaving them out altogether when there's e.g. a DOI. But in any event, the difference between '9781139492287' vs. '978-1-139-49228-7' is not worth throwing the giant blob of curly braces and template name. Readers are not memorizing these DOIs or dictating them over the phone, but just clicking a hyperlink that points the same place either way. If you think ISBNs need to be presented with hyphens, that formatting should be rolled into the behavior of the citation templates. Trying to change the ISBNs across every article is a huge unnecessary distraction. –jacobolus (t) 18:10, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

The template's documentation page explicitly says Format ISBN is intended to be substituted so that the template call in wikitext is replaced with the formatted ISBN. In other words: don't leave the template around un-substituted. –jacobolus (t) 18:25, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

As I write this, {{format ISBN}} is transcluded in only a handful of articles; see Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Format ISBN. It is obvious that the templates are being substed. You have been here long enough to know that subst: does not work inside of <ref>...</ref> tags so {{Format ISBN}} relies on User:AnomieBOT/docs/TemplateSubster to do the substing. This is mentioned in the template's documentation; see Template:Format ISBN § Usage.

Because ISBNs exist outside of cs1|2 templates (primarily {{ISBN}}) it make more sense to keep {{format ISBN}} as a separate substable template than to integrate it into cs1|2.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 18:37, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

So in other words, each of these edits needs to be done twice, once by a cleanup bot? –jacobolus (t) 23:17, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Of course, but you knew that, right? So why ask? Why so angry?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 00:40, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Lua help

Hello!

Inspired by this, I have created this which ultimately produces this. This would theoretically be one of the sections in our main page but none of the other sections use Lua. Is there any way to convert the Lua module in Mediawiki syntax while retaining functionality? I tried doing that myself but failed when I was trying to make the whole box act as a link, like it currently works now. I only know how to make text or images work as links. - Klein Muçi (talk) 12:17, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Do you mean that you want to rewrite the module as a wikitext template? Why? Does lua not work at sq:Faqja kryesore?

If you mustn't use lua on sq:Faqja kryesore, you can always replace the invoke at sq:Përdoruesi:Klein Muçi/sandbox with its output: use sq:Speciale:ExpandTemplates to get the output from the invoke.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:29, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Oh thank you very much! I didn't know something like that was possible to utilize in this manner. That solves my problem.

I can always use Lua. It's just that I hadn't done so for the other sections and I was striving to have a single standard. - Klein Muçi (talk) 15:08, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Some days ago you helped me change sq:Module:Age. That was helpful. Now I tried dealing with the translation but still failed somehow. I did follow all the instructions written on the module itself however this article still has an English date. Any help on what I could be missing? - Klein Muçi (talk) 23:15, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

After a quick glance, I don't have an answer. Perhaps the best person to ask is Editor Johnuniq who is the author.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:53, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry but Module:Date (which Module:Age uses) does not support I18n. That is, the module only supports English dates. The background is that the English Wikipedia has a problem where a date like 1/4/2023 might mean 1 April 2023 (dmy) or January 4, 2023 (mdy). #time (see Help:Magic words) and Lua language functions can do a lot of clever things, but they accept 1/4/2023 as mdy which leads to errors here. Module:Date has built-in code to parse date strings but it will not accept ambiguous dates. I forget what happens at bnwiki (Bengali Wikipedia) but I seem to recall they have a wrapper that converts English dates to the local language. At bnwiki, Module:Age is bn:Module:বয়স and you could ask bn:User:আফতাবুজ্জামান to say what they do. Johnuniq (talk) 04:30, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

@Johnuniq thank you for your insight! I still believe what I'm after to be rather easy though. I just want the months translated. And the word "age". That's it. So that's 13 strings in total to be translated. (25 if we are to count shortened months as well.)

I feel like you're mostly referring to the date format which I believe it is able to be changed (Module:Age#L-33 and I already did) or in showing errors in ambiguous cases (hopefully that and not just assuming) which I'm very fine with considering a lot of dates may come from articles being translated from EnWiki or other wikis which use different date formats and thus that ambiguity needs to be checked. So, in this regard, things are good already. I just wanted the months translated but I see now table for that in the Module:Age. Maybe I should do it on Module:Date now that you mention the dependency. - Klein Muçi (talk) 11:16, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Oh, I had forgotten about the translate table. That was 4+1⁄2 years ago. Johnuniq (talk) 20:44, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

@Trappist the monk, this change you proposed me days ago solved the problems with birth dates but apparently created problems with deathdates, e.g. sq:Zenepe Pirani (check the infobox). If I reverse it, death dates show no problems but birth date problems are back. Any idea what could be going on? - Klein Muçi (talk) 11:13, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Umm, that article has this:

{{Death date and age|2021|07|05|1910|5|10}}

You said that you wanted to reverse the order of the positional parameters in the templates (see Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2023 October 26 § Module:Age - Date format). Changing the order in the module does not change the order in the templates as they are used in articles. Changing the templates must be done either manually or by bot. Rewriting the template to:

{{Death date and age|05|07|2021|10|5|1910}}

works at sq:Zenepe Pirani. Are you sure that you really want to reverse the order of the positional parameters?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:45, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Ooh... But the error message specifically says that you need to write the date as ymd and that will solve the problem. And that's where the confusion starts: The date is already in that format and it still shows an error. Apparently I should have changed the error messages to reflect the change done. Maybe now after changing the error messages things will be back to normal. I think you solved the problem. Thank you! - Klein Muçi (talk) 16:15, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

orig-year

Is orig-date recommended now? I have trouble keeping up with all of the citation changes and would rather not make a mess that other people have to clean up. Hog Farm _Talk 00:46, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, |orig-date= is the canonical form; both it and |orig-year= are acceptable. We switched to |orig-date= so that the assigned value would be semantically correct regardless of the date: whether it be year alone or a more specific date; |orig-date=5 June 1990 is more semantically correct than |orig-year=5 June 1990. |orig-date=1990 and |orig-year=1990 are both equally correct.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 01:11, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Discussion credit, without ping, without user page

Hello; you don't have a user page, but you do have a talk page. If I wanted to credit you for your comment without pinging you (as I had done here), normally I could use {{No ping}}. Since you don't have a user page, it lacks hard redirect code to your talk page. Would [[:User talk:Trappist the monk|Trappist the monk]] link to your talk page without pinging you? I've never been certain if it still pings in discussions, regardless of the colon trick, so I've replaced the template with unlinked plain text. For future reference, is what I have described above an appropriate way to credit you for your comment, or should WP:COLON include text cautioning editors to limit usage of no-ping user links regardless of their intent? — CJDOS, Sheridan, OR (talk) 18:55, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

For me, 'credit' is the wrong word; 'mention' might be better. I'm pretty sure that ping's don't work if the target page is other than the user page. I do get pings when the target is my non-existent user page so were you to write [[User:Trappist the monk]] in a new post and sign it, I would get that ping. See also the documentation at {{Reply to}}.

Let's do an experiment (hope you're watching this page). This mention ([[User talk:CJDOS]]) should not ping you → User talk:CJDOS.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:07, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. No notification received when I logged in just now. My concern is that CJDOS stands out in plain text, while Trappist the monk blends in a bit more because the only capital letter is 'T'. Thus, why I wanted to link in-mention (highlighting via hyperlink) without pinging (excessive notification). — CJDOS, Sheridan, OR (talk) 20:28, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

"Make it so"

I hope my attempt (at Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 91#Cite journal: "no journal name supplied" seems to be a common error, surely it can be identified) to cosplay Captain Picard wasn't perceived as offensive rather than humourous. It wasn't really an order, just a polite request. I'd hate to see it fall by the wayside because I was undiplomatic? 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 18:00, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

I'll get to it, not to worry. I also want those error messages unhidden. Nothing at cs1|2 happens quickly.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 18:09, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

List of Egyptian inventions and discoveries

user haha normal is vandalising the Wikipedia page of List of Egyptian inventions and discoveries by removing sourced information. Myuoh kaka roi (talk) 17:16, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

reverted.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:51, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Cite book parameters: lord in author to avoid comma in first

Dear Trappist the monk, you are a famous Wikipedian and do heaps of excellent work for us lesser users. Please do not take it badly if I appear to criticise. Perhaps I do simply not understand what you are doing. This concerns your edit on the article 1st Irish Parliament of King Charles I on 6 November 2023. After another excellent correction of a mistake made by me, you replaced "|last=Mountmorres |first=Hervey Redmond, Viscount" with "|author=Lord Mountmorres" in the "Cite book" template of source description of the article. We lose the author's first names. The documentation at Template:Cite book states "Author: this parameter is used to hold the name of an organizational author (e.g. a committee) or the complete name (first and last) of a single person; for the latter, prefer the use of |first= and |last=.". I would guess you did this replacement to avoid the error thrown for the comma in the "first"-parameter. I feel no errors should be thrown for such commas. With many thanks and best regards, respectfully yours, Johannes Schade (talk) 15:42, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

The template links to the title page of The History of the Principal Transactions of the Irish Parliament... at https://archive.org/details/historyprincipa00soutgoog/page/n8/mode/2up. The title page names the author this way:

By the Right Hon. LORD MOUNTMORRES

The archive.org metadata for that work names the author (really two authors) as:

Mountmorres of Castlemorres, Hervey Redmond Morres, Viscount, 1745 or 6-1797; Southwell, Robert, Sir, 1635-1702

Lord Mountmorres may very well be Hervey Redmond Morres; the source itself doesn't appear to say – a text search for Hervey finds one instance at the footnote on page 30 but that Hervey is from 1171-ish so can't possibly be the 1792 Hervey suggested by the archive.org metadata. It looks like someone in the deep distant past hand-wrote something below the attribution printed on the title page. That handwritten scrawl might be 'Hervey Redmond Morres'; hard to tell because the New York Library perforations obscure the scan. Regardless, we should not trust the handwritten attribution because such notation occurs outside of any editorial oversight.

Because |last=Mountmorres |first=Hervey Redmond Morres, Viscount is not a name that is printed (by the publisher) on the title page, I used the name that the publisher did print.

Generally, rank, title, affiliations, degrees, and other such honoraria do not belong in a citation's name-list parameters.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:37, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Dear Trappist the monk, thank you very much for your careful reply. I understand your edit now. Do you imply one should always cite authors' names exactly as they appear on the book's title page? For example, should Cokayne's Complete Peerage, 1910, Vol. I, be given as:

{{Cite book|last=Cokayne |first=George Edward |author-link=George Edward Cokayne |editor-last=Gibbs |editor-first=Vicary |editor-link=Vicary Gibbs (St Albans MP) |date=1910 |title=The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant, Extinct, or Dormant |edition=2nd |volume=I |publisher=The St Catherine Press |location=London |oclc=1042385438 |url=https://archive.org/details/completepeerageo01coka/}} – Ab-Adam to Basing

or should we give the author as |author=G. E. C. since only "BY G. E. C." is printed on its title page? Admittedly, this is an extreme example. Quite often authors' first names are reduced to initials on the title page. Is it o.k. to give the full first names instead? You say "Generally, rank, title, affiliations, degrees, and other such honoraria do not belong in a citation's name-list parameters." Would this not also apply to the "Lord" in "Lord Mountmorres"? Should honoraria be omitted even if they eliminate possible confusion with others who share the same name? Is there anything about these issues in the MOS or other Wikipedia guidelines? With many, many thanks and best regards Johannes Schade (talk) 11:01, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Why did they do that? Even the 1887 edition names the editor as G. E. C. I guess I would not use |editor=G. E. C. but rather, some form of the editor's name; after all, 'George Edward Cokayne' is named as 'the original compiler of [the Peerage]' in the 1910 edition (p. 104).

I'm not aware of any hard and fast rules regarding rank, title, etc. I'm pretty sure that I've seen the topic discussed somewhere at en.wiki – it's hard to search for something specific when all you have for search terms is common words. I found one discussion on en.wiki Wikipedia talk:Citing sources/Archive 25 § Author names, titles, degrees etc. and this Vancouver style guide. We are naming the author. Ranks, titles, degrees, etc change over time; the name (generally) doesn't change.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:56, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Dear Trappist the monk, thank you again. I am glad to hear that you also would not use |author=G.E.C. That shows that we do not always need to follow precisely what is written on the title page.

I found that the Dictionary of National Biography (DNB), the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (ODNB) and the recent Dictionary of Irish Biography (DIB) have articles on Hervey Redmond Morres. The article in the ODNB only states he was a prolific writer, but the ones in the DNB and the DIB (See here) mention the The history of the principal transactions of the Irish parliament from the year 1634 to 1666 (2 vols, 1792) as his work. Does this change anything to our story?

With many thanks and best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 20:14, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

I guess I don't think so. It seems safest to me to use what is present on the title page in almost all cases. It's relatively simple for a reader plucking the book from the library shelf to make the leap from |editor=G. E. Cokayne in our citation to 'G. E. C.' on the book's title page (especially with |author-link=George Edward Cokayne as a backup). Less so, I think, to make the leap from |author=Hervey Redmond Morres in our citation to 'Lord Mountmorres' on the source's title page. An author link might help, but not to Viscount Mountmorres because there is little said there about the 2nd Viscount If you are looking for an article to improve, that is a splendid candidate. The text rapidly degenerates to the point that I lost track of who-was-who. Reminds me of Canterbury's description of French law to support Henry's claim to the French throne (Shakespeare, Henry V Act 1, scene 2) 'So that, as clear as is the summer's sun'. Of course you could write an article Hervey Redmond Morres, 2nd Viscount Mountmorres and use DNB and DIB as initial sources ...

I don't suppose that I've actually answered your question.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:40, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Dear Trappist the monk, I think you have answered my question: use what is on the title page.

One of the problems that pops up is the ordering of the references in the source list (I often have one as I like the shorted footnotes style). On that list, which usually is alphabetical by surname, should "Lord Mountmorres" go under L or under M, under Mountmorres or under Morres? Worse, should G. E. C. go under G or under C? Or should we rather order the list according to the surname in the |author-link= if there is one? or perhaps should aristocrats be ordered by their title rather than by their surname?

Besides, just to make sure we agree, I would think it should not be |author=Hervey Redmond Morres but |Last=Morres followed by |first=Hervey Redmond.

I have started going through my list of frequently used sources to correct them to show what is on the title page. I look them mup on the Internet. I do not touch library shelves that often any more. Internet Archive is the mainstay. Taking exactly what is on the title page, however, often collides with the recommendation to omit honoraria. Even you kept the "Lord" in "Lord Mountmorres" and it feels right to do so. Another example: Melville Henry Massue styles himself on the title page of the Jacobite Peerage as "Marquis of Ruvigny and Raineval".

So I corrected to:

::::::{{Cite book|author=Marquis of Ruvigny and Raineval |author-link=Melville Henry Massue |date=1904 |title=Jacobite Peerage Baronetage Knightage and Grants of Honour |publisher=T C & E C Jack |location=Edinburgh |oclc=655825906 |url=https://archive.org/details/jacobitepeerageb00ruvi/}} ::::::

I would nevertheless probably order him under Ruvigny rather than under Massue, as I think this is what he was usually called.

Are you good with French? I have similar problems with French sources that I use in the English Wikipedia.

With many thanks and best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 13:01, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I suppose that authors credited by an aristocrat's title could be sorted by the first letter of the first word of the title as given on the source's title page; so, 'L' for Lord Mountmorres and 'M' for Marquis of Ruvigny and Raineval. Or, you could assume the viewpoint of the monarch and sort these under 'M' and 'R' (Mountmorres and Ruvigny). Choose one of these and be in-article consistent. For G. E. C. I would choose 'G' because |author=G. E. C. and {{sfn|G. E. C.|1910}}.

I used |author=Hervey Redmond Morres because it was easier to write that in this discussion than to bother with |first= / |last= and because I've been doing a lot of fixing multiple author name in parameters designed for only one name for which I can sometimes use semi-automated tools to create appropriate enumerated |authorn= parameters. It is very difficult for a machine to accurately parse human names into |first= / |last= parameters. Your article, you choose how the authors names are parameterized so long as you are consistent.

Alas, I don't have French. When I need translations to English I tend to rely on https://translate.google.com/?sl=auto&tl=en

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:40, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Dear Trappist the monk. That's it for now. Changung my author names to what the title pages say will take me a long time, even if I just fix my list so that future references will be correct, without going back and fixing the old ones. Perhaps you have enough weight and influence to have something put into WP:CITE to say the author names should be used as they are on the title page, whenever possible. That would probably have kept me from going astray. I have nominatedd two GAs and one A-class without people telling me. Thanks for all the help Johannes Schade (talk) 15:10, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Never give a sucker an even break

At English units, I pasted the author list from Worldcat, went to get cup of English tea, came back to unbundle the authors= only to find you had leapt in first – just to make me look bad . And we haven't even been introduced! 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 14:37, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

You probably ought not to make a habit of that; |authors= is likely to go away.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:09, 10 November 2023 (UTC)