User talk:Ca2james/Archive 3

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This was inappropriate

Per [1] this was an inappropriate tag (and I think the article might have been deleted before your message even posted to my user page, and certainly it was deleted before I even logged in today). It is pretty much always OK to create a draft in a userspace sandbox and that was what I did when I moved the article content to my userspace -- and I had done so BEFORE the article was deleted. Absent copyvio or a BLP violation, there is no reason content can't remain in user space... it is not in article space. So, I don't know if you have the admin mop or not, but if you do, please restore, and if you do not, then please assist in seeing that this article is restored to userspace so that myself and others can continue to improve it to a point where it may be able to be resubmitted in the future. Montanabw^(talk) 23:24, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Actually, Montanabw, it was completely appropriate. Consensus was the article was deleted. If you want to work on it, ask the closing admin to userfy it for you. Copying it into userspace because you disagree with consensus is not allowed. Don't come bitching to me because you got caught doing something you're not supposed to do. Ca2james (talk) 03:09, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

That is pretty bitey. And let's watch the language too. Just so you know, when I looked at the rules on this, Moving an article to userspace during an AfD is what is not allowed (as it is "disruptive"). The copypaste issue is an attibution question. People sandbox existing article text quite often with articles that they are rewriting, then when they have finished their work, they paste their new draft in as a bold edit... I had moved this article at least a day or two before it was deleted. Once it was moved, there was some discussion there about sourcing. Then when the original article was deleted, the more appropriate thing than a speedy tag would have been to alert me to the issue of userfying deleted articles rather than a copypaste, in which case I probably would have worked with you to grab the talk page notes I needed and then allow userfication. Also, I presume that your failure to put the notice of the speedy tag on my talk page was an inadvertent accident on your part. (The article was deleted within minutes so I would have had no recourse anyway, but still... etiquette...) Montanabw^(talk) 01:41, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

I posted the speedy deletion notification on your talk page immediately after I tagged the page for deletion. I most definitely did not fail to do this because... etiquette...

The way I saw it, you came here falsely declaring that what I'd done was inappropriate and demanding that I reverse it. Your message came across to me as demanding and arrogant. When you leave a message that comes across that way, you can expect to be bitten in return.

I didn't contact you directly instead of tagging the page, although I did consider it. I decided against it for two reasons: first, it looked to me like you were deliberately circumventing consensus by copying article over, especially since it was clear that you knew about userification and, if I recall correctly, you created it with an edit summary like "just in case", which indicated to me that you wanted to have it if it was deleted. Second, you don't come across as someone approachable who is willing to be wrong. Instead, you come across as someone who is absolutely convinced they're right and anyone who says anything different is just wrong (see the first message you left above for proof, or your accusation that I didn't post the notification on your talk page). If I'd contacted you with a nice message indicating that you weren't allowed to copy the page the way you did, would you have accepted that you'd done something wrong, or would you have argued about it? Rightly or wrongly, I figured you'd argue.

So given that it looked to me like you were deliberately choosing to circumvent consensus, and given that I judged that you would argue with me instead of working with me if I contacted you instead, I decided to tag it for speedy deletion. Tagging it for speedy deletion was a perfectly acceptable course of action. That you didn't get a chance to get those notes is unfortunate but not my fault; speedy deletion is supposed to be speedy. Ca2james (talk) 03:33, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Um, no you did not post to my talk: NeilN did: [2] you posted to my user page [3], which is a truly amateur mistake and also didn't ping to my email. (But then, we all do make mistakes, so I forgive you for that mistake in this case). I did move it "just in case" because articles can be deleted in an instant without notice when a closer chooses to do so, and you can't move an article with its history until the discussion is closed (that is considered "disruptive"), so if you want to sandbox something to work on, it's a copy and paste -- people do it all the time when sandboxing article improvements that they want to not have disrupting the current article (current example: User:Dr. Blofeld/Audrey Hepburn). As far as "you do not come across as someone approachable," you don't know until you try, do you? This is what WP:AGF is. I have about 300 talk page watchers right now, and a relatively lively page, so there are folks who beg to differ with you. Of course I might "argue," but if you actually came in with a friendly tone and evidence in the form of a link to the precise guideline such as "hey, now that the article has been deleted, I think you might need to have it userfied in your own space to preserve the history and attribution, see WP:USERFY#Foowhateverthedetailis" -- well, then you might have been amazed. I actually have been known to admit I need to do something differently or that I made a mistake. And, to be blunt, you don't precisely come across as a purveyor of sweetness and light yourself, so do remember that bit about pots, kettles, and such. Montanabw^(talk) 19:16, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Ummm, at least I did post it, even if I posted it in the wrong place by accident (which I hadn't realised, and I apologise for having done that as it most definitely wasn't deliberate), so saying I didn't post it at all is a misrepresentation of the situation. Yes, I might have been surprised if I'd said something to you instead of taking the perfectly allowable and acceptable action that I did but I decided not to take that chance. And I didn't have to. You'd have liked it, but it wasn't a requirement. I've explained my reasoning for my choices to you in an honest way that takes ownership of my own thoughts and judgements. I didn't expect you to like my statements but I did hope that you wouldn't stoop to "oh yeah? But you're bad too!!!"-type statements. I don't know what point that kind of statement is supposed to make: if it's that I'm bad so I can't comment on other people, I say that my being bad means that I can better recognise someone else who's bad. If the point is that my being bad justifies you being bad, that's faulty logic because two wrongs don't make a right. Ca2james (talk) 21:10, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

At no point have I said that you are "bad" or that I am "not bad." "Bad" doesn't enter into any of this. The issue is socially useful behavior versus actions that escalate drama to no good end. Assuming good faith is also an element of all of this. Given the actions you have engaged in across multiple areas of wikipedia (I watchlist Atsme's talk page, for example, I think that you really need to lay off of the judgment of other human beings and focus solely on article content. Your attribution of motive to other people is just not accurate (none of us are mind-readers) and, frankly, even if you were smarter than Sigmund Freud and had everyone figured out, it still would be socially ill-advised to tell them so. Montanabw^(talk) 22:30, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

You ignore my statement for days and days and days and now, after I post on your wikifriend's page, you decide you have to come here and tell me what a terrible editor I am? Is this just coincidental timing or are you here to defend your wikifriend by way of an attack on me? You said "so do remember that bit about pots, kettles, and such" and I used "bad" as a shorthand for "you don't precisely come across as a purveyor of sweetness and light yourself". Assuming good faith is definitely important here, and it's something that you didn't do when you came to my talk page, either, after I did something I'm perfectly allowed to do so it's kind of.... ironic? that you're accusing me of failing to assume good faith. I attribute no motive to anyone; I go entirely by people's behaviour towards me and others, precisely because I cannot read their minds. I don't usually tell people the way their behaviour comes across to me unless I feel like I'm being attacked or bullied. Ca2james (talk) 00:43, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

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A potential AfD that may interest you?

Since you do such a good job at AfD, I thought maybe you'd be interested in Arturo_Castro_(Guatemalan_actor) - it was created by the BLP which is confirmed here. You may decide it meets WP:GNG and not initiate an AfD - it's up to you. ^{Atsme📞📧} 16:07, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

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It's time for you to stop hounding me.

I just ran our interactions through the analyzer, and it doesn't look good for you, Ca2james. If you keep hounding me, and showing up wherever I'm editing just so you can revert or oppose, I'm going to file an interaction ban against you. Keep that in mind. You would be wise to steer clear of me. You have been warned. ^{Atsme📞📧} 00:19, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Atsme I am not hounding you and please don't threaten me. Please also stay off my Talk page. Thank you. Ca2james (talk) 00:25, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

It is not a threat - it's a warning. ^{Atsme📞📧} 00:36, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

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You were warned to stop hounding me

And now you've done it again at Matt Lauer sexual misconduct allegations. You should not have done that - ^{Atsme📞📧} 05:33, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Oh FFS, Atsme I am not hounding you, and that should be obvious to you. Now just stop. Stop trying to gaslight me. Stop falsely accusing me. Stop threatening me. And for the last and final time, stop posting on my Talk page. Go away. You are not welcome here. Ca2james (talk) 06:00, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

You should not have done that...

I really do wish you hadn't done that - did you not read the TP discussion? You just went against consensus. ^{Atsme📞📧} 04:17, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

And here I thought "Stop threatening me" and "stop gaslighting me" and "stay off my talk page" were clear and easy to understand. Clearly not, because here you are giving me implied threats - again - on my talk page - again - and gaslighting me by saying I'm going against consensus (which I am not, as anyone who can read will see) - again. YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE. STOP THREATENING ME. STOP GASLIGHTING ME. GO AWAY. I hope that's finally clear to you. Ca2james (talk)`

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Murder of James Bulger

Please do not change dmy dates to mdy on British articles, as you did here. This goes against the MoS and is not deemed positive copyediting. Further to this, you ignored a 'use dmy dates' tag. –Sb2001 10:32, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

My apologies, Sb2001. I will be more careful in the future. You do realize that the "use dmy dates" tag only appears at the top of the article? I was editing sections, not the whole article, and I didn't see the tag. I can hardly ignore something that isn't there. Ca2james (talk) 14:28, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

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Discussion about you on another editor's page

Hi there, I saw your recent talk page history and don't know if this notification is welcome, but I saw this discussion about you ongoing at an admin's page and felt you should know you were being discussed. 207.222.59.50 (talk) 20:42, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Hi User talk:207.222.59.50 and thank you for your note. I had not seen that discussion and I appreciate being notified. Thanks. Ca2james (talk) 20:53, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

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A beer for you!

Enjoy it - good work at Talk:Matt Lauer Galobtter (pingó mió) 15:20, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Galobtter!! Much appreciated! 16:05, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

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Stop stalking me

You know, you should know better by now. Stop stalking my edits. It's unacceptable. It is harassment. You need to stop. -- BrillLyle (talk) 18:21, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

BrillLyle, I'm not stalking you. I didn't know you'd worked on the article because I'm not checking whether you've been active at an article before I make an edit. If I'd known it was your article I'd have left it alone because dealing with you has been awful. I made that edit because I think there might be a BLP problem with that source which is why I removed it. Now stop jumping to conclusions and falsely accusing me, and try a little WP:AGF. Ca2james (talk) 18:31, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

@Ca2james: Right. I don't believe you. An "accident"?!? That's laughable. I am actually glad to hear that it has been as awful for you as it has been for me. At least there is that.

You continue to be a menace. You delete, that's all you do. And you don't understand basic things. You again show you don't know what you are doing when it comes to citations. The citation establishes his service.

Don't make me laugh about AGF. I tried to reach out to you and offer assistance and even collaborate and edit a page together but you didn't even acknowledge that AGF. Great job of this, truly. -- BrillLyle (talk) 18:40, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

BrillLyle you do not need to ping me on my own Talk page. I don't give a flying f*ck whether you believe me or not: you've shown that you're unwilling to even entertain the idea that you're wrong about anything and that you prefer to believe whatever narrative you've dreamed up (which includes painting editors with whom you've been in conflict as bad faith, menaces, and worse) instead of accepting the facts in front of you. You take things personally instead of looking at things objectively: in the face of questions about your edits you go on the attack. You don't focus on content, you focus on editors and that is the opposite of collaborative editing.

If this has been awful for you, it is a direct result of your own actions. I don't know why you couldn't or wouldn't focus on content and I don't care: the end result is that you have been deeply, deeply unpleasant to deal with and have made routine editing a totally unnecessary battle. It didn't have to be this way, but you chose it through your very own actions. Ca2james (talk) 18:57, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

Trust me...

... You can safely ignore the name-dropping re "I have already discussed this with people at WMF". This person has about as much credibility at WMF as Obama has at the Trump White House. EEng 02:18, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

LOL thanks for the tip EEng :) I figured if such a person existed, it would be worthwhile talking to them. Ca2james (talk) 02:23, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

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Request

Please stop stalking my edits. Again you are editing a page that (a) doesn't need your type of editing scrutiny and (b) you seem to be selectively editing content I am creating. It is stalking and harassment. Please stop. -- BrillLyle (talk) 05:20, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Oh FFS. Stop falsely accusing me of doing things I'm not doing. I've told you before: I'm not stalking your edits, or selectively editing only your precious articles. You posted about the article at WPO, and I looked at it from there. All editing, including yours, deserves scrutiny. That's part of collaborative editing. If you can't handle that, you shouldn't be editing on Wikipedia. Ca2james (talk) 05:33, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

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The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Roxy Theatre (Edmonton) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

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You wrote "I personally might tweak the citations a bit to only put that first reference just once at the end of the paragraph, as suggested by Kvng."

Only one citation verifies the entire sentence. The other two don't.

I wrote on the talk page "The other two citations only partially verify the last part of claim."

Do you think if the other citations fail verification that is okay? QuackGuru (talk) 05:10, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

QuackGuru I think you and I have different definitions of "failed verification", and that the way you're using it here in your question is akin to asking me if I've stopped beating my wife. The other two citations support information in the claim and so should be included. Citations do not have to verify an entire sentence to be validly attached to that sentence. Each citation just needs to verify something in the sentence. In a perfect world I suppose a citation would be attached to just the phrase it verified but that would clutter up text quite a lot. Such an approach woukd only be needed for particularly controversial topics and Trypophobia isn't one of them. Ca2james (talk) 03:57, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

See "The extent to which trypophobia exists is unknown,[1] but the available data suggests that having an aversion to trypophobic imagery is relatively common.[1][3][8]"

The first citation easily verifies the entire sentence. The other two do not verify the entire sentence and the other two do not verify "but the available data suggests that having an aversion to trypophobic imagery is relatively common."

"Each citation just needs to verify something in the sentence." contradicts verifiability policy.

See "WP:CHALLENGE": "All content must be verifiable." It does not say the content can partially fail verification or just needs to verify something in the sentence. QuackGuru (talk) 15:19, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

What do you mean, the second and third citations don't verify the second part of the sentence? I can't see the third source, but the second one specifically says It had been reported before that images with such visual properties are often described as uncomfortable by general population. ... Another experiment showed even non-trypophobic individuals are sensitive to this kind of images, some of whom find them aversive. Apparently, there is an innate aversion towards such stimuli. This completely verifies the second part of the sentence. I take it on good faith by the other editors on that page that the third source also verifies that second part of the sentence.

Because these sources do verify the second part of the sentence (ie they verify something in the sentence) and do not fail verification, there's no reason to remove them. Ca2james (talk) 02:09, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

See the part where it says "However," and "suggests"?[4] The current wording uses a synonym for however which is "but" and the current wording uses the word "suggests". The entire second part of the sentence must be verifiable using the sources presented. The content you quoted does not "completely verifies" the second part of the sentence. The content you quoted uses the word "some" for the part about aversion. The source you quoted verifies the following sentence. Some people have an aversion to trypophobic imagery. That is very different from the content in the article. I read the third source. It also fails verification for the second part of the sentence. When different sources make different claims it is best to use one source for the claim rather than add different sources that verify different claims. QuackGuru (talk) 02:33, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

It isn't necessary for the original text and the paraphrased text to correspond one-to-one; it's only necessary that the meaning of the original text be retained. Often, paraphrased text will have different sentence structure and words but still convey the same meaning as the original text. In this case, I think the second part of the disputed text is supported by this second source even though some of the words are different. You disagree; if you think that the paraphrasing can be better, why not propose some wording instead of saying that text fails verification because certain words aren't exactly the same? Ca2james (talk) 03:12, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

I can't propose some wording because there is no need to change the wording. The wording is okay. The problem is the text passes verification using the original source while the text fails verification using the other sources. We already have one citation that verifies the entire sentence. The words are not just different from each source. They use different wording such as "suggests". The other sources do not verify the current wording "but" or "suggests" and there are other differences. The differences are too great because the current wording makes a very specific claim that only one source verifies both parts of the sentence. That means the other two sources fails verification. The other sources make claims that are too different to verify the same claim. Each source conveys a different meaning and therefore do not verify the same content. QuackGuru (talk) 15:55, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

I suggested proposing alternate text because that's one of the ways to deal with text that an editor thinks is unsupported by its sources. As I say, I disagree that the sources fail verification for that claim. I think your focus on individual words misses the broader meaning or sense of the sources (similar to not seeing the forest for the trees) and therefore I find your argument unconvincing. Ca2james (talk) 16:42, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

I did not say there is a problem with the wording. I did not say all the sources fail verification. There is no editor that thinks it is unsupported by all the sources. I did explain to you the first citation verifies all the claims and the others do not verify the first as well as the second claim. The content you quoted verifies "Some people have an aversion to trypophobic imagery." That is verify different than "...but the available data suggests that having an aversion to trypophobic imagery is relatively common." All three sources verify different claims and "WP:CHALLENGE" states "All content must be verifiable." All the content is verifiable only with one source. Focusing on individual words conveys the correct and accurate meaning of each source. (similar to understanding that the sky is not always blue). Source may appear to have similar meaning but when you look closer they have very different meanings and use different types of weasel words. See "Even changing single words or certain phrases can render content from being sourced, to content that has failed verification."[5] QuackGuru (talk) 14:59, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

When attempting to justify your methods or interpretations of policy, don't link to essays you yourself have written as it misleadingly implies that you have community consensus to do whatever it is you're doing. I've already said that I disagree with and am unconvinced by your failed verification arguments for this particular text. At this point, you are repeating yourself, and if I am unconvinced by your argument the first time you make it, I will not be convinced the nth time. If you have nothing new to say on this topic, please stop talking about it here. Thanks. Ca2james (talk) 16:58, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

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