Talk:Manny Pacquiao

allegations

Rarely belong in a BLP, and the misuse of Wikipedia's voice to present them is beyond the pale. If they are important, they must be presented per WP:NPOV, and not use Wikipedia's voice for the allegations made. Wikipedia is not a tabloid celebrity gossip site. Collect (talk) 15:08, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

There is zero proof whatsoever that Pacquiao has ever used performance-enhancing drugs. It is important to realize that Pacquiao is a high-profile figure, so naturally there will be people who are desperate for media attention who will gossip and speculate about him. "Special drinks", Teddy Atlas' eyes, and questionable emails are not evidence of steroid use -- they are nothing more than rumors. The allegations are baseless and do not belong on this article. Songisjust (talk) 09:49, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Songisjust is a sock account. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 10:51, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

There are a variety of problems with the section but the opinions generally seem to be attributed. Can you please be specific about which ones you are concerned with?--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 21:39, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

From a distance, I fail to understand why the contentious material cannot first be discussed at length here, rather than a handful of editors impulsively restoring it all the time. Isn't that the whole point of WP, to first gain consensus on disputed content, and only then add it back to the article?—not the other way around. I have no "horse in this race" (neither a Pacquiao fan nor interested in the allegations), but having done routine maintenance on the article over the past year, the conduct of a few editors is getting very annoying. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:46, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

BLP noticeboard

User:Collect has decided to remove all the content on PED allegations. (despite it being based on reliable/verifiable sources and having consensus) - that's kinda okay, because that's how BRD works. However, he also contributed to a report on the BLP noticeboard but didn't think it would be a good idea to inform anyone else involved, so that we could contribute towards the discussion on that noticeboard, which doesn't really seem like the most good faith effort to gain consensus. So, here is the link Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Manny_Pacquiao in case anyone here wishes to contribute. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:08, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Note that contentious material which has been removed from any BLP REQUIRES a positive consensus for re-insertion as a bare minimum. Name-calling and attacks on editors do not constitute seeking a consensus. By the way, I did not create the BLP/N report, and implying that it is wrong to post on an existing report without re-notifying every editor is not only not required, it would be considered a violation of WP:CANVASS in the first place. Collect (talk) 13:12, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, do you have any idea what WP:CANVASS is about? If you try to get a discussion to go your way by informing your buddies about it, then you are in breach of WP:CANVASS.

WP:CANVASS specifically states "An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion can place a message at any of the following" and then lists "The talk page of one or more directly related articles." as one of the places that would not be considered to be canvassing. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 13:45, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

I only have a bit over 45,000 edits now. Anytime a person who is not the originator of a new discussion on a noticeboard then notifies any group of editors, it is quite likely to be a violation of WP:CANVASS. The person you ought to have asked as the person who started the discussion in this case. I had no obligation when I posted on a proper noticeboard in an already existing section to then notify any editor or editors that I had done so. Clearer? Collect (talk) 19:19, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

"* On the user talk pages of concerned editors. Examples include:

• • Editors who have made substantial edits to the topic or article

etc.."

so, yeah - it's really clear that you should have informed people and no, it wouldn't have been canvassing. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 08:10, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

suggestion:

Because of a fear of blood drainage,[92][93] especially close to a bout, the steroid allegation began when Pacquiao turned down a random blood test arrangement when in negotiations for the Mayweather bout in 2010.[94] The allegations by Mayweather ended in a lawsuit from Pacquiao that was settled with compensation by Mayweather out of court.[95]

to:

Pacquiao declined a random blood test arrangement when in negotiations for the Mayweather bout in 2010.[94] Mayweather alleged that this was likely due to steroid use, which led to a lawsuit by Pacquiao. That lawsuit resulted in compensation by Mayweather out of court.[95]

"Blood drainage" is used quite weirdly in the current version as part of an adverbial prepositional phrase, is undefined, and adds nothing to the simple statement of fact.

Opinions? Collect (talk) 18:26, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

blood extraction? needles? blood tests? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 12:49, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

I like the change. Prose is better and it's much more straightforward. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:37, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Does it state within the sources Pacquiao's supposed fear of needles? That should be mentioned as the reason for why he declined the test, otherwise the reader may be left wondering. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 15:41, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

The term "blood drainage" seems wonderfully inapt and quite useless. Mayweather appears to have made an accusation and the lawsuit was about that allegation. And Mayweather paid. That is all that really belongs in a BLP where the net result was that it was Mayweather who ended up with problems. Collect (talk) 17:45, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

As far as I recall, I've read both that he's scared of needles and that he feels weakened after having blood taken. The feeling weak excuse was the reason that I saw the most. I will see if there is a nice source.

To be fair, there have been other notable public figures stating that Manny was a cheat, not just Mayweather - there certainly doesn't need to be any OR regarding why it's plausible or not that he is a cheat - however, when someone famous makes a pretty unambiguous statement, we certainly can quote or paraphrase them. (direct/attributed quotes would be ideal)Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:30, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

BLP issues

Seeing that both ANI and the BLP noticeboard have shown NO major concerns about the controversy section, most of the editors who were removing it have been confirmed as sock accounts, and therefore indef blocked and that the controversy section has been present for a long time (therefore being the stable version, supported by consensus) we should restore the controversy section as soon as the article is no longer protected. Of course discussions should still take place regarding how to improve it. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:33, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

The fact is that WP:BLP does not say "if only a few people raise the concerns, then the concerns do not exist." The concerns were raised. Your recourse is to have an RfC to find a strong consensus for inclusion of the removed material, not to state "the opposition is small, therefore the concerns are irrelevant." Start the RfC. And I suggest that I am not a sock of anyone at all, and that sort of claim is a wonderful example of bad faith. Simple. Collect (talk) 12:57, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

I would support an RfC for the Controversy section, but a separate one may be needed for the "greatest of all time" issue in the lead section, which began all this hysteria. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 13:28, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm just hoping the "greatest of all time" drama has calmed down. Although it wasn't what I initially thought was best, the current content in the lede is good. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 13:56, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Collect 1st point. One the BLP noticeboard, let's list who raised concerns. Well, firstly you did. And also User:Songisjust raised concerns - however they are an indef blocked sock, so their opinion is worth nothing. Then you had - SaskatchewanSenator , who stated "the opinions generally seem to be attributed" and asked you "Can you please be specific about the material presented in Wikipedia's voice that you are concerned with" - which you failed to do and of course you had me, I was waiting for your "sheaf of allegations clearly presented in Wikipedia's voice" which you never provided information on. So in short, apart from you and an indef blocked sock, no one on the BLP noticeboard thought there was any BLP issue, and from that we can come to the conclusion that there are zero BLP issues with that article and proceed with reverting it back to the stable previous version.

2nd point. Who said you were a sock? Did they file an SPI? I will be happy to go to your SPI and state that while I consider you to be a highly disruptive editor with a track record of TEN BLOCKS !!!! I don't think you're a sock puppet. Don't worry bro, I've got your back on this one, buddy. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 14:20, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

The concern was raised at WP:BLPN by another person. Note I did not start that section, nor did I start the report at WP:ANI. Naue7 opened that section. HampsteadLord was also involved in those discussions. As was Eggishorn Collect (talk) 16:14, 15 September 2017 (UTC) Collect (talk) 18:48, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

STSC and I also removed the potentially libellous material and gave explanantions. --Hillbillyholiday (talk) 18:12, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

BLP noticeboard has not confirmed that any of the content was a BLP issue. Hillbillyholiday please confirm why you think the content removed was libelous. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 11:48, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

You might want to read this discussion as well. --John (talk) 20:23, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Indeed. Where is that RfC, hmm? Enough with the sock accusations and re-addition of contentious content until we have one started. This is basic stuff on WP. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:28, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Start an RFC then? Comments like "an editor who refuses to even start an RfC" and "Where is that RfC, hmm?" are kinda funny, when you consider that anyone can start an RFC. You want one? Start one. I personally, see it as a waste of time as when it was posted on ANI and on BLP noticeboard, no one seemed to think it's a BLP issue. Well no one apart from some indef blocked socks, a disruptive editor with 10+ blocks and an editor currently on a one month block based on his actions on this article.Spacecowboy420 (talk) 11:57, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

I started the discussion on the noticeboard and am none of the above. Naue7 (talk) 16:35, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

On which noticeboard, Naue7 ? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:13, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Spacecowboy420 The Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Naue7 (talk) 21:18, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Bible Quote

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Closing this on a purely procedural as no consensus - this popped up at AN/RFC as a still open discussion. It's been stale for nearly two years, things have likely moved on for now so I'm closing this one. Steven Crossin ^{Help resolve disputes!} 17:09, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

---

I removed the rather slanted "bible" section as being violative of WP:BLP and have been reverted by a new editor here. Again, when such a section is removed, WP:CONSENSUS requires a positive consensus for such "material". Anyone is free to start the RfC, but this iterated violation of Wikipedia policy is harmful to Wikipedia itself. Collect (talk) 14:27, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Nah, it's all relevant and cited. You shouldn't remove it just because you don't like it. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 14:56, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with the section the edit summary states "noting this is what was initially misascribed to the person" but when you actually read the source it says how the quote was once attributed to him before and the story was retracted but this was another instance. Many reliable sources have reported on this as fact.[1][2][3] Naue7 (talk) 16:30, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

I agree, it's well supported. Thanks for finding those other sources.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 18:33, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Seems well-sourced Collect There are many similar "slanted" sections in BLPs which are discussed and retained. I see no reason to do an RfC unless you can bring up more specific policy/BLP issues. Jim1138 (talk) 23:46, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

User Collect is right in seeking consensus. "Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion - The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content" per WP:ONUS. - STSC (talk) 02:25, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

It seems only fair that we follow Wikipedia guidelines and I guess no matter if WP:ONUS and other policies supports inclusion or removal of content, we have to abide by them. Although the bible section is correctly sourced, we have to decided if we are giving undue weight to one aspect of the article. As per WP:UNDUE and to quote Jimbo Wales:

"If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts; If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents; If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, it does not belong on Wikipedia, regardless of whether it is true or you can prove it, except perhaps in some ancillary article."

So, that seems very clear. If it is a majority or significant minority, we should be able to provide sources and then it is suitable for inclusion in the article. If we can't find those sources, then it is not suitable for inclusion. I will look for some sources and my success or failure should make this easy to deal with. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:58, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Sorry - the material is of WP:UNDUE weight, and the fact that an editor has engaged in edit war for its inclusion rather that follow the strictures of an RfC, makes me more against its inclusion than ever. Collect (talk) 12:53, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Well, according to your opinion - it's undue weight. However, according to the guidelines set up by Jimbo Wales - it isn't undue weight.

Also, we decide if content should be included on an article, based on the merits of the content, not based on the merits of the editor who adds it or their previous edits. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 13:08, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Collect as per WP:UNDUE "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources" - what part of that makes this content unsuitable for the article? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 13:25, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Have you managed all this time to never notice how RfCs work? Learn, please. Collect (talk) 17:17, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Sources:

La Times, Ny Daily, BBC, FoxSports, The Guardian, Rolling Stone. I guess those sources are reliable enough and plentiful enough to make the content suitable for inclusion. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 09:27, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

• Include It's relevant (especially for a senator, not only a boxer), well-sourced and nowhere near UNDUE. I'm also deeply unimpressed with the tag-team behaviour going on here to get SpaceCowboy blocked. This is not a BLP issue that might warrant such a reaction, it's far too well sourced for that. At most it's a minor question of UNDUE. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:34, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
• Exclude Wikipedia is not a tabloid. There's nothing encyclopedic about talking about what someone uploaded to instagram and then deleted. It does not add anything to the main point, already well conveyed, about Pacquiao's views on LGBT issues. Mr Ernie (talk) 10:16, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Neither is the Guardian a tabloid. Is it now OK to call for the murder of some people, provided that it's only on Instagram? Or if you delete it quickly afterwards? How is that a "tabloid" matter? Andy Dingley (talk) 10:31, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Take your issue up at the article about the Bible then. And please don't throw loaded questions at me. Mr Ernie (talk) 10:37, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

Exclude As we could also then state that every single fundamentalist who believed in inerrancy of the Bible has that position, and put it in their BLPs. And that every Orthodox Jew prays "Lord, I thank thee that I was not born a woman.” or similar material which is not fair to the subject of a BLP. The ascription of a Bible quote as though it were the specific literal belief peculiar to that person and stated as such by that person is violative of the principle of "do no harm" stated by Wikipedia. [4] It is not a call for the murder of some people and thus using it as such is violative of WP:BLP entirely. Collect (talk) 13:13, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

• Weak straw man argument.

This isn't someone who just happens to believe such a position, or even an internet nobody shouting into a bucket. This is someone with international prominence, putting forward such a view to a wide audience. Then retracting it, then doing it again. They did it in such a way that media around the world commented upon it. So that even Nike reacted to it, by withdrawing their promotional contract.

This is both sourced, and significant. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:40, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

His views about LGBT issues are already in the article. The Bible quote thing apparently happened after Nike dropped him. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:45, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

"The thing" is about what happened both before and after the Nike drop.

Why are his LGBT views in the article at all if it's a blockable BLP offence (see: Spacecowboy420 (talk · contribs)) to even mention them? If we cover this at all, and we ought to, then we ought to cover it fully (including the contested addition here), as is supported by multiple international sources. The piece that's unsourced at present is, "Pacquiao is openly supportive of LGBT activism", which is just as much under BLP as anything. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:31, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

FYI, "administrators can impose sanctions for edits... that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies". - STSC (talk) 12:16, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

The text that was removed did not say that Mr. Pacquiao called for the murder of some people. It said that he posted some Bible verses.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 23:24, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

• Exclude - Manny had deleted whatever comment on his instagram account, that's the end of the matter. The trivial incident has no encyclopedic value at all. STSC (talk) 16:15, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

• Include All of these reliable sources (and I'll add one more ) from the USA, UK and the Philippines thought that Mr. Pacquiao posting the bible verses was significant enough to write articles on it and that it contributes to understanding his opinions on homosexuality. I agree with the sources.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 23:24, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
• Include Obviously relevant and notable for a major public figure to make such statements. Deleting something from Instagram, doesn't make it never have happened. I'm a little surprised that people consider a senator stating that gays should be put to death, to be a trivial matter. Obviously, it isn't trivial. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 08:02, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Manny did not state that gays should be put to death. The fuss about something deleted in a social media is absolutely trivial. STSC (talk) 16:24, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes, he did.

He literally posted the following, "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." claiming Biblical authority behind it. It doesn't matter whether he used his own words or quoted the Bible, he posted, literally, "They are to be put to death" This is clear, this is sourced. Why are we blocking editors for including it in this article? Andy Dingley (talk) 16:37, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

• Include as these remarks has significance in proportion to Pacquiao's religious views, to which he's also well-known. Slightlymad 10:43, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
• Include, per rationales of User:Andy Dingley and User:Slightlymad. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:11, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

STSC "Manny did not state that gays should be put to death. The fuss about something deleted in a social media is absolutely trivial." - I'm confused. He didn't post it, but he deleted it anyway (despite not having posted it?). And his social media post was trivial anyway. (even though he didn't post anything?) - but on a more serious note (as I have previously stated) to have a world famous sportsman, celebrity and senator stating that gays should be put to death, on public media is not a trivial matter. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:49, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

That would seem to be the legal fallacy of 'riding two horses'. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:51, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

He only posted a quote from the Bible, he didn't say those words. He has since deleted it. This trivial incident on a social media has no encyclopedic value, there's no need to make a meal out of it. STSC (talk) 09:50, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you think advocating murder is "trivial".

It was not seen as a trivial incident internationally, as evidenced by international press reporting it thus. That is our standard for significance on WP, thus we should see it as significant too. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:41, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Our standard here is WP:NOTNEWS. And to describe the Holy Bible quote as "advocating murder" is just being hysterical. STSC (talk) 15:27, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfC: Manny Pacquiao steroid allegations

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There are a number of issues here. There is clear consensus that "the speculation regarding Pacquiao's lack of stoppages since 2009, and the 'juicy' quotes from Roach, Atlas and Malignaggi, absolutely must go"Text largely from Mac Dreamstate. The !vote is somewhat split on the issue of covering the Olympic-style drug-testing proposal, the refusal, the accusations by Mayweather Sr. and the like. No clear reasons were given for excluding that material--that the lawsuit happened is not gossip. I can find no reason to exclude those issues as long as they are A) well-sourced to highly reliable sources (which appears to be trivial) and B) there is no reasonable reading of the text would lead one to believe that we are claiming or even implying he has in fact used performance-enhancing drugs. Hobit (talk) 05:07, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

---

Should the steroid allegations paragraph be included, excluded, or reworded? – Nihlus (talk) 18:52, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Since the edit warring is getting out of hand, the discussions at BLPN and ANI have not gotten anywhere, and protection has not worked, I am opening this RfC to establish community consensus on the controversies regarding Manny Pacquiao one at a time. The issue is whether or not this topic should be covered at all, so please make your decisions based on the entirety of the content below. If consensus is to reword, further discussion will take place after the RfC is closed.

Previous discussions

• Talk:Manny Pacquiao#allegations
• Talk:Manny Pacquiao#BLP noticeboard
• Talk:Manny Pacquiao#BLP issues
• Talk:Manny Pacquiao#Bible Quote
• Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Manny Pacquiao
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Hillbillyholiday

Steroid allegations

Because of a fear of blood drainage, especially close to a bout, this allegation began when he turned down a random blood and urine drug test in 2010 when in negotiations for a Mayweather bout. Allegations by Mayweather ended in a lawsuit from Pacquiao that was settled with penalties by Mayweather out of court. In spite of multiple knockdowns and near stoppages, since the allegations Pacquiao has yet to score a knockout inside the ring. Pacquiao's trainer Freddie Roach has had suspicion of Pacquiao's former strength and conditioning coach Alex Ariza. Roach stated that Ariza had been giving Pacquiao "special drinks" without his permission. Roach also stated "One of the reasons I don't work with him [Ariza] anymore is he's a little shady. He used to give Manny a drink before workouts, and I asked him what was in the drink and he would never tell me. I told him I need to know what was in the drinks because you're giving it to my fighter." Well respected boxing aficionado Teddy Atlas has been of the belief that Pacquiao has been on steroids in the past based on what he [Atlas] sees with his eyes. saying the power is the last thing to go in a fighter, and Manny doesn't have his anymore. Atlas also mentioned on ESPN according to some sources he was told on during negotiations between a fight between Mayweather and Pacquiao on the topic of the drug test refusal that the Pacquiao camp sent emails to the Mayweather camp asking "What would the penalty be if our guy tested positive?" the second email said "If he did test positive could we keep this a secret for the benefit of boxing?" Other boxers such as Paulie Malignaggi and Bernard Hopkins have also been outspoken on this topic.

References

Survey

(Choose include, exclude, or reword below.)

• Exclude: As I said at the Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents "Steroid allegations are a very serious claim and Pacquiao has already settled a lawsuit with Floyd Mayweather regarding these claims and should definitely be removed per WP:BLP as no criminal or sporting body has ever accused him of this and as the section says "there is no definitive proof on this subject, only speculation" and WP:NOTGOSSIP." Naue7 (talk) 21:29, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
• Reword: Pacquiao's refusal of testing in 2010, the original allegations by Mayweather, and the resulting lawsuit were all an overwhelming part of why the biggest fight in history didn't take place for five years—it absolutely should be mentioned. However, the subsequent speculation regarding Pacquiao's lack of stoppages since 2009, and the "juicy" quotes from Roach, Atlas and Malignaggi, absolutely must go—they fall flagrantly foul of WP:NOTRUMOR and WP:UNDUE. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 21:49, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

What aspect of WP:NOTRUMOR are you thinking of?--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 23:42, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Oh I actually meant WP:NOTGOSSIP, specifically point #3. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 15:49, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Comment: If there is to be a Controversy section regarding PEDs and not the religious stuff, it should go into the Boxing career of Manny Pacquiao article, and not this BLP one. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 18:45, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

• Exclude as being unproven claims by some who gain by defaming the living person. The charges are, in fact, criminal in nature, and only a strong positive consensus would be valid to include them. Collect (talk) 22:34, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
• Reword per Mac Dreamstate. Drmies (talk) 22:35, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
• Reword. It's sufficient to say Mayweather wanted Olympic-type drug-testing, and Pacquiao declined while giving whatever reasons. That's it. You can thus avoid gossip, rumors, legalities and innuendo. Include lots of footnotes so readers can get more info if they want. Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:09, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
• Reword and drastically reduce - the English is not readily understandable and too much gossip at the end. Suggest decommatize to start more clearly "Steroid allegations began when he turned down a drug test during 2010 negotiations for a Mayweather bout citing concerns about blood drainage close to a bout." And end it after a line about the lawsuit settlement -- everything else is WP:SYNTH innuendo rather than reporting on a significant BLP event in his life. Markbassett (talk) 04:37, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
• Exclude - "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources" per WP:EXTRAORDINARY. The content of "steroid allegations" is poorly sourced; sources such as Bleacher Report (it is a blog) and YouTube are quite unacceptable. STSC (talk) 15:55, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
• Reword (Summoned by bot) per Mac Dreamstrate. L3X1 (distænt write) 01:55, 29 September 2017 (UTC)
• Reword: As Mac Dreamstate explained, this issue delayed the most lucrative boxing match ever, for five years. It is essential to explain why that happened--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 23:42, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
• Exclude as this is incredibly poorly sourced and undue. As an aside this article is terrible for a BLP. It has virtually nothing on his boxing career and we should not have large dedicated controversy sections like this. I have tagged it as undue. AIRcorn (talk) 18:36, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
• Reword Summoned by a bot, I agree with mac Dreamstrate's rational - it is a notable enough topic to keep, with a rewrite. Comatmebro (talk) 22:02, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
• Reword it certainly belongs in this article as it is highly notable. Rewording in order to make the more picky editors happy, shouldn't be an issue. Oh, sorry for the late reply, I was suffering from an undeserved and incorrect block. :) Spacecowboy420 (talk) 07:59, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
• Exclude - Summoned by bot. The content is WP:UNDUE, poorly sourced, and purely speculation. If it were to be included, additional concrete reliable sources would need to be provided confirming criminal charges. Meatsgains (talk) 01:53, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Response to Meatsgains - using steroids is not illegal, so why would confirmation of criminal charges be relevant? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 07:42, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Exactly my point... I suppose I should have said "reliable sources would need to be provided confirming any criminal charges. Meatsgains (talk) 01:30, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Ah, okay - got it. So are you suggesting that all potentially negative content on all articles should be removed unless they result in criminal charges? Should we remove every single civil case and PED case from Wikipedia, as they don't result in criminal charges? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:08, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Meatsgains, can I assume that your lack of a response to my last comment, means that you agree with me? This discussion is taking far too much time and prompt responses would help to speed things up a little. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:27, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

No, that's not what I'm suggesting at all. I never said anything remotely close to "all potentially negative content on all articles should be removed unless they result in criminal charges". Come on now... And no, I don't agree with you. It's only been four days since my last response. Meatsgains (talk) 16:12, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Then what are you suggesting, considering that you based your stance on this article on "reliable sources would need to be provided confirming any criminal charges." for something that does not result in criminal charges, and that the content passes all notability, neutrality and reliability requirements? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:13, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

• Reword - It's obviously notable and as such should be in the article however as per above it does need rewriting. –Davey2010^Talk 14:50, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Of course this isn't a vote - but it would seem that there is consensus towards including the claims of PED usage, but only if they are reworded. Perhaps we should be making a draft reworded version now. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:29, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

• Note Participants in this discussion are not allowed to claim a close to the discussion. In fact, the claimed "consensus" is quite far from the clear consensus required under WP:BLP. Collect (talk) 19:23, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, but your participation here is just disrupting the entire process. You have an overwhelming majority of participants in the survey stating that the content should remain in a reworded form. The sensible step would be to do exactly that. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 06:20, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Huh? I suggest that your iterated insistence that a handful of SPA accounts make policies irrelevant is not airborne by a few miles. Collect (talk) 21:42, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

9 (reword) vs 5 (exclude) is not overwhelming. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 15:41, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Clear majority? Overwhelming majority? it all adds up to the same thing. There was a survey, people gave their opinions. The results are obvious. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 07:57, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Actually, 9 vs 5 would be "no consensus" to include and reword. STSC (talk) 10:18, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Considering that it was originally in the article, it would be "no consensus" to remove. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 10:25, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Shall I say this again: "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content" per WP:ONUS. STSC (talk) 10:30, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

I just want to repeat the advise at the top of this talk page:-

"This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (WP:BLP) policy. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article, especially if potentially libellous."

STSC (talk) 10:51, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Well, thanks. I must admit that in the two seconds it takes me to scroll down, I often forget such things. BTW - advice. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 07:12, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

We have a idea where people stand on the issues. Let's try to build some consensus.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 21:17, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Sources

A few editors mentioned concerns about the sources. Like the wording of the section, all of the sources and/or citations have problems and should be improved. If people are willing to put in the effort, I think this can be accomplished. Is anyone concerned that there is anything in the proposed section that is not verifiable?--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 21:17, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Verifiable as fact? - yes, there are problems. Usable per WP:WEIGHT, yes, there are problems. Sorry but you would need much better sourcing and reasoning to re-add the stuff removed. Collect (talk) 21:40, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

It would be easier to build some consensus if we restrict this subsection to issues with the sources. WP:WEIGHT is an NPOV issue and should be discussed, but in another section. Can you please identify the things you think are not verifiable?--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 21:47, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Tag removed

I removed a tag that stated this article wasn't focused on Pacquiao's boxing career. I assume the editor who placed that tag, wasn't aware that there is another article focused on his boxing career. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 08:18, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

I was aware. Unfortunately that is not how Wikipedia works. This is an overview article for his life and career as a whole and as such should give due weight to all aspects of it. A major part of that career is his boxing. Having three paragraphs (one a long quote) for this part of his career while having multiple paragraphs and lists for his acting, political and basketball aspects (not to mention the stand alone controversy section) does not come close to giving the correct weight. If anything the wrong sections were WP:split off. If there was ever an article that warranted an Undue tag this is it. AIRcorn (talk) 08:44, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't agree 100% , but then again, I don't see it as a major issue. If it promotes discussion and consensus then it's all good. Perhaps the Arnold Schwarzenegger article is a good example of how to move ahead with this article? Spacecowboy420 (talk) 09:12, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

It would not be a bad place to start. Arnie suffers a bit from WP:Recentism, but that is pretty common here. Would definitely be an improvement. AIRcorn (talk) 09:34, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Aircorn. One option would be to undo the split and, if the article is too long, split the acting, political and basketball sections.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 20:52, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Semi-protected edit request on 26 June 2019

182.18.229.244 (talk) 04:47, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 July 2019

182.18.228.183 (talk) 00:42, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Error: Douglas defeated Tyson ...

Can someone fix this?

"Mike Tyson's defeat of James "Buster" Douglas in 1990" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.35.112.194 (talk) 20:19, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 March 2021

I want to mention his children's names. 49.149.169.194 (talk) 02:28, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

 Not done WP:BLPNAME. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 03:58, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

2022 Philippine presidential election

A6397 can we discuss why the election subsection was removed? CutePeach (talk) 10:47, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

he just lost

i changed his loss count from 7 to 8 Outrunno (talk) 05:06, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 November 2021

Could you please add under "Awards and recognitions" under "national" awards that Manny Pacquiao was made a Knight Commander in the Philippines' Order of the Knights of Rizal in 2010? 2600:8807:5449:FB00:2520:CF6F:3B6C:BE29 (talk) 20:17, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:25, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 August 2022

I just wanted to add that Manny Pacquiao was mentioned in Betty by Yung Gravy. 2600:1700:59E4:1020:49DD:87B4:AFD8:D2AF (talk) 00:40, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:54, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Origin/etymology of surname

Does his surname derive from the Cebuano word pakyaw, which means "wholesale" or "to buy or pay in bulk"? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 17:32, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 June 2023

Please add the “Professional Boxing Record” section (the one that shows all of his fights, opponents, record after each fight, method of victory, etc.), as it is absent from the page. 174.69.129.139 (talk) 04:17, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Presuming you mean the lengthy table at https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Boxing_career_of_Manny_Pacquiao#Professional_boxing_record , no. We fork things off into separate articles to keep articles from being too bloated Cannolis (talk) 21:48, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 June 2023

Pacquiao is regarded by many as one of the greatest Filipino boxers of all-time. 186.96.30.17 (talk) 03:54, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 14:08, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 July 2024

Pacquiao is a six-division world champion" 108.12.255.242 (talk) 16:33, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Note that existing sources say he is an eight-division world champion. Jamedeus (talk) 19:36, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 November 2024

In the Boxing Career -> Overview section, the last two sentences are "As there were no judge's decision. The bout ended in a draw.". This should be rewritten to "As there were no judges' decisions (or perhaps "as there was no judge's decision" if considering the overall decision), the bout ended in a draw. I.e., this should be rewritten as one sentence, there's no reason for it to be two and it doesn't read well.

To clarify:

Change "As there were no judge's decision. The bout ended in a draw."

To "As there was no judge's decision, the bout ended in a draw." TheRedshift (talk) 01:04, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

 Done, thanks. DrOrinScrivello (talk) 16:35, 18 November 2024 (UTC)