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Coordinate error

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{{geodata-check}}

The following coordinate fixes are needed for


—121.54.54.46 (talk) 05:27, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. I've emended the coordinates. Deor (talk) 08:47, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 12 May 2020

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

– Have talked about this on Wikipedia talk:Tambayan Philippines#Train station names again, but by personal experience, the most common written forms of the station names use a capitalized "Station". RS have mixed usage, but uses with "Station" in caps are more common, and appears to be the de facto standard in Philippine English. "X station" is the most common usage for these stations (and for all others in the Philippines). Philippine train station names suffer from a lack of standardization: there are some discussions previously on WT:TAMBAY but those haven't set a standard, and only articles of stations around Metro Manila and suburbs got renamed, yet with different naming schemes.

For Tutuban station, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC: "Tutuban station" would normally refer to the PNR station, so no disamb is needed. - TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 21:34, 12 May 2020 (UTC) —Relisted. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 02:38, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Survey 1

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Survey responses before this request was altered
Looks like you've missed the Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles#Train station names, which asks for a capitalized "Station" suffix for train station article names. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 06:46, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good example of the sort of "local consensus" that needs to be fixed to conform to the wider WP style consensus. Dicklyon (talk) 15:51, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Either that or its a good example of the wider consensus being sufficiently flexible that it is able to accommodate differences in usage in different regions, in the same way it copes with things like "Colour"/"Color" and "Transport"/"Transportation". I haven't looked to see which it is, but from your comment it appears you haven't either, and this is not the first time you've attempted to impose a style without reference to what the sources actually say. Thryduulf (talk) 11:03, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
To second Thryduulf, we shouldn't try to force some rule if it's wouldn't be appropriate for the context. If you read WP:LOCALCONSENSUS carefully, don't you see the clause that allows a subcommunity to impose some rule if they can prove it can co-exist with the wider consensus?
By the way, the scheme for Japanese stations is based on a government guideline for English translations of their native names, but I don't know well if that's also what most English-language sources use, but having read previous threads, I agree things must be changed for that. -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 18:00, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Never. Either it's in ALL CAPS or others will stand to what is grammatically correct. {{u|Koressha}} {interact|ambags} 07:43, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
With regard to "drafting a WP:NC for Philippine train station articles", I think it is not best for it to be imposed without it being part of a Wikiproject. I'd rather see a successful dedicated Wikiproject that efficiently states which standards and WP rules to apply for our railways than continually see arguments hither and thither in general. {{u|Koressha}} {interact|ambags} 07:50, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support an examination of the sources for a selection of these stations shows that the predominant usage is to capitalise "Station" when treating it as a proper noun (e.g. "Naga Station" vs "the Naga station"). Sources are inconsistent with regards the word "railway" with neither inclusion nor exclusion predominating. Thryduulf (talk) 09:51, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Thryduulf: In case we would like to have uniformity (i.e. station names of lines 1, 2, and 3 will follow suit), what would be your thoughts? {{u|Koressha}} {interact|ambags} 10:19, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, station names on the same system should all follow the same format (where necessary disambiguation permits). Thryduulf (talk) 10:48, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Thryduulf: I'd like to know what sources you are referring to regarding the capitalized "Station". {{u|Koressha}} {interact|ambags} 14:02, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The sources found by googling for the station names excluding Wikipedia (and anything else irrelevant, e.g. one of them I was getting lots of hits for jewellery). Thryduulf (talk) 14:40, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's also the same thing User:Howard the Duck has done to prove my argument back on the Tambayan talk. If the majority of RS (including Phil. gov't ones) do capitalize "Station" as a name suffix, then that form is the basis of the common name for all train stations in the Philippines (something we can include in the Philippines-specific Manual of Style or a separate NC page). As the nominator, I support move of all to title case names--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 23:27, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Title Case usages slightly outnumber Sentence case usages, but only just. It's not conclusive to say that "Dela Rosa Station" is WP:NC over "Dela Rosa station", just "Dela Rosa", "Dela Rosa PNR station", or even "Dela Rosa railway station". Howard the Duck (talk) 06:35, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's not what I'm seeing. When the word station is included when referring to the station by it's name (not just the station in its location) it is capitalised. The word "station" is sometimes omitted when context is clear, but that doesn't mean "Station" is not part of the proper name any more than e.g. dropping the "International" part of "Ashford International" when context is clear means that "International" is not part of the station's name. Thryduulf (talk) 10:58, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ashford International? Seriously? What country is this RM about? This is what I said earlier:

:FWIW, usages among WP:RS slightly leans towards Sentence case vs. Title Case, but only just for the LRT station at Blumentritt: Blumentritt Station, Blumentritt Station, Blumentritt station, Blumentritt station, Blumentritt station. Usage varies even on the same source. Howard the Duck (talk) 18:13, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Take note that this is for Blumentritt LRT station. I picked that since the name is unique, and personally the name "Blumentritt" has primarily meant the LRT station more than the Blumentritt railway station below it, and the street it was named after (which is generally not that heavily trafficked except in its westernmost end where the rail stations are). I actually said Sentence case outnumbers Title Case for Blumentritt but I suspect for other stations Title Case slighty outnumbers Sentence case; I haven't dug deeper enough though.
Also if there's ambiguity in identically-named stations in the Philippines, I'd actually recommend use "LRT", "MRT" and "PNR" as a natural disambiguation, instead of the currently used parenthetical form like "Blumentritt station (Line 1)". If people disambiguate between the EDSA stations, it's "EDSA LRT station" and "EDSA PNR station". Howard the Duck (talk) 13:13, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Let me check out Tutuban station, the primary topic of this RM:
  • Tutuban Station
    1. PNA, this also consistently uses Title Case when referring to other stations in the article.
    2. PDI, this also consistently uses Title Case when referring to other stations in the article.
    3. Standard, this also consistently uses Title Case when referring to other stations in the article.
    4. PNA
    5. Top Gear
  • Tutuban station
    1. PDI, this also consistently uses Sentence case when referring to other stations in the article.
    2. PDI
    3. PDI
    4. Rappler
    5. Gulf News
    6. Yahoo News
    7. PDI
    8. GMA
    9. UNTV, this article consistently uses Sentence case for names of other station aside from Tutuban.
  • Both usages in the same article
    1. PNA, mostly uses Title Case, one instance of Sentence case for "Tutuban station".
So, I got lazy and guess this should be representative enough. It does look like state media (PNA) prefers Title Case. Actual WP:RS are split, with more usages of Sentence case over Title Case. Again, this is just on "Tutuban station" and on the first 10 or so results in Google News search. Howard the Duck (talk) 13:41, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Toss-up or so? Again, to my experience, the title case form (without disambs) is the usual Pinoy way of writing train station names, even in our native languages. You can consider having "LRT/MRT station/Station" for those served by LRT-1 and 2, and MRT-3 (and MRT-7) as well, but for practicality and consistency's sake, I think we name train stations with X Station/station with the proper disamb (by system, operator, province, city/municipality), regardless if it's of the LRT and MRT lines in Metro Manila, or the grand old PNR, or any future rapid transit or mainline system to come.
So for the Blumentritt example you've provided, for the LRT one, I agree we name it just as "Blumentritt Station" as the LRT station is its primary topic, and from there, we put a disamb on the PNR station (which is listed for renaming here). We also have a discussion on renaming Metro Manila rapid transit lines, so that'll influence the disambiguation to use for the LRT/MRT ones. -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 17:17, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Toss up, leaning on Sentence case for 2 stations, one of which is the flagship station. WP:RS does reflect actual usage. As the RM is to move away from Sentence case to Title Case, there should be actual convincing reason that Title Case is indeed WP:NC.
Disambiguating identically named stations should be based on how the train lines are actually named in Wikipedia. Disambiguating as "(Line 3)" is in bad form as the train line isn't located in Line 3 nor is it how the line is actually named IRL. Howard the Duck (talk) 02:42, 15 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The evidence that Philippine station names should be treated differently from the rest of the world (except Japan) is marginal, and not compelling enough to warrant a mass page move. However, we should consider using "station" or "railway station" consistently throughout. Certes (talk) 15:32, 16 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Of the two, I can compromise with "station". I see why PNR stations got named with "X railway station" in the first place because of the "Railways" in the PNR's full name, but if the common name argument is considered, the format should have been the "X station" everyone's favoring. That also should've been the case for LRT and MRT, which were named "X LRT/MRT station".
By the way, I'm considering making those written in title case redirects.-TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 23:08, 16 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I know how bad our train stations are named here, but if I'm to compromise, I go with the "X station" format. -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 23:08, 16 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Survey 2

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Note. Please add new supports and opposes below based upon this newly altered request that was changed by the nominator at 23:47, 16 May 2020. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 02:47, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Hiwilms: I would still insist the PNR station is the primary topic of Tutuban station, so why keep the disamb that got added when it should have not? Better put a disamb for the LRT Line 2 station ("Tutuban station (LRT)", and the NSCR one ("Tutuban station (North-South Commuter Railway)"), not on the existing one that is the obvious WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.-TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 08:40, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think this would really apply to station articles like these. I think there should be disambiguation for these three stations, especially that they are not housed on a single building/structure and they are owned by two different operators. HiwilmsTalk 10:00, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But not until those stations are built, and by the way, Tutuban station's WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is still the PNR station, so I'm still wondering how the disamb made its way into the name after we discussed train station names in WT:TAMBAY. Also pinging in RioHondo and Sky Harbor for comments. -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 17:11, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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Note: I have notified WikiProject Trains of this discussion. - Certes (talk) 22:41, 12 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
A couple of technical points: 5th Avenue station is a disambiguation page. You may wish to consider moving 5th Avenue station (PNR) instead. Also, Buendia station redirects to Buendia station (Line 3). Certes (talk) 23:28, 12 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Just a note, I propose renaming this (Tutuban station) as simply Tutuban, without a parenthetical disamb, as this is the only station with that name and the present one is the primary topic. There's another Tutuban Station under construction to the south (to serve electric-powered commuter trains), but this focuses on the present station that replaced the heritage one converted into a mall (which the new one will be around). --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 00:30, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Since this is also an issue by the Tambayan Philippines community, I think we invite local users for their opinions on this. Pinging in: @Sky Harbor:, @Howard the Duck:, @RioHondo:, @Korean Rail Fan:, @Koressha: @Hiwilms:, @Hariboneagle927:. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 06:46, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment We are aware of the dire lack unified of standards in Philippine transit, let alone railways. We must define our own; hence, 1) may I quote:

We use sentence case for the title — "station" in lowercase; [sic] ...disambiguate articles properly, "Santa Rosa station (PNR)".
— User:Hiwilms 06:29, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

If we can all agree that the sentence case should be in lowercase, and this is what we would refer to as grammatically correct, then might as well support the RM. 2) If this is widely used in other countries (as Dicklyon said re: the MOS:CAPS basic scheme and WP:USSTATION and WP:UKSTATION, then so be it; overseas Filipinos might benefit from this as well. 3) Our stations are not run by Japan; hence we can choose which MOS or rules to follow. If all else fails, WP:IAF. 4) Lastly, maybe it would be better to establish this and a few other standards as well in a WikiProject? {{u|Koressha}} {interact|ambags} 07:19, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But most titles are currently in sentence case (lowercase "station"), and this RM proposes to change them to title case (uppercase "Station"). Certes (talk) 11:16, 13 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@LSGH: Have read this RM thread of a South Korea train station which included a station in Japan, as well as other RMs involving renaming of stations in Korea and elsewhere with titles in sentence case, I now agree that train station names, regardless of where country they are in or what the signs say, should be normally sentence case. Nevertheless, we're still seeing controversial moves, such as with Seoul's central train station. --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 02:26, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that Japan is an odd outlier and ought to be fixed. Keep in mind too that there are exceptions, where Station is an inherent part of a name, like "Union Station" in various places. My look at sources suggests that Seoul Station may be such an exception; not sure. Dicklyon (talk) 05:16, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I saw the recent set of moves that involved stations in Korea. I was inclining to support the most recent move back to using uppercase for a handful of railway stations (while agreeing to using lowercase for most others), but only to note that these railway stations are often shared with subway stations, where the use of station is the norm. As for Japan, some others say that there were government-issued guidelines that became the basis for the long-standing MOS convention there. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 15:31, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Dicklyon: For Japanese train stations, agree with making them follow the project-wide guidelines, with possible exceptions at least for large central intermodal stations, especially those in the center of large cities (e.g. Tokyo and Shinjuku). For Seoul Station, same thing as above (can do the same as well for large central stations of other cities). Be bold and discuss that with the Japanese and Korean regional WikiProjects.TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 00:01, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not ready to take on Japan yet, as their local consensus will probably involve a fight to try to straighten out. Korea seems to be settled now, except for what the exceptions might be, and I'm open to hearing more about those. The US is nicely settled for station (without much help from me), but is a holdout for "Line" and sometimes other things (like subway, branch, tunnel) where caps are clearly not well supported by sources. For example , we have probably a few thousand articles with "New York City Subway" even though the MTA that runs that system mostly does not cap "subway" in that expression. But the subway fans didn't want to hear that; if it's capped on the map title, that's good enough for them. That's not a battle I can win, even with the backing of the handful of editors who regularly support going along with MOS guidance. Until there are more editors who care about the MOS, there will be some of these rogue styles. Dicklyon (talk) 03:09, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps we have to 1) identify the proper naming convention (yet we are here in 'Station' vs 'station') that is and would be more correct to the Filipino's knowledge on grammar and usage. Then 2) for instances like "Pacita Main Gate", we can consider the colloquial usage (how do local commuters call it, is it "Pacita station" or "Pacita MG station"? 3) Disambs in parentheses are not a problem (as echoed above) iff there is another station of the same name. 4) If an exception really has to be considered, then might as well respect that. Regardless, things are subject to change which is why we constantly edit over time. Pinging in other members who might chime in: @Raku Hachijo and BicolExpressHunter: and quick question, is "5th Avenue station (PNR)" a more common name than "C-3 station"? {{ping|Koressha}} {interact|ambags} 10:23, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Koressha: I'm from the far south of Manila, so I don't know which one between 5th Avenue and C-3 is preferred for that station's name. Now let's see if we can get one who's from the area to respond. Raku Hachijo (talk) 01:53, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah it's alright; the question is for anyone in this thread, though what you can say re: 'Station' or 'station' is why I tagged other editors like you. It surely will count. {{ping|Koressha}} {interact|ambags} 02:09, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
5th Avenue station is 5th Avenue. Station code is "5TH" as seen on a Rappler article on PNR's punctuality. HiwilmsTalk 06:39, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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