Talk:Thomas Baty

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Pronoun

I was just skimming the article and didnt really notice "they" referred to the subject. After confusion arose I checked the infobox or the top of the article for the info, but there is none, the usage is implied only in the introduction sentence. Would it make sense to explicitly state it before the article in italic? I think the usage is totally legitimate, I don't think it can be taken for granted though. EnTerbury (talk) 17:51, 13 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See my new topic here: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Talk:Thomas_Baty#c-Throughthemind-20240704164000-Updated_article_for_name_and_pronoun_consistency Throughthemind (talk) 16:40, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pronoun usage

I understand that many (but not all) modern non-binary people prefer to be referred to as 'they', but surely it is anachronistic to impose 'they' on Baty without knowing what his preferences were. This appears to be less a reflection of Baty's preferences than an attempt to claim Baty for the non-binary movement.

I also noticed the following inconsistent use of pronouns:

following the death of Henry Willard Denison, a US citizen who served in that position until their death in 1914.

An important person in their life was their sister, who went with them to Japan in 1916, and lived with them until her death in 1944.

Since Henry Willard Denison isn't around to make a choice of pronoun, and doesn't appear to have been non-binary, isn't it rather presumptuous to use 'their' while using 'her' for Baty's sister?

59.153.112.147 (talk) 00:13, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

These are fair points, I've reverted back to he/him pronouns as Baty never stated a preference to use they/them. Throughthemind (talk) 10:12, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See my new topic here: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Talk:Thomas_Baty#c-Throughthemind-20240704164000-Updated_article_for_name_and_pronoun_consistency Throughthemind (talk) 16:40, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 28 September 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. The participation was low and there was no explicit "oppose", so I hesitate to call it "no move". However, the raised concerns suggest that the sources mostly use "Thomas Batty" and that the proposer did not build a strong case for the move. No such user (talk) 12:32, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thomas Baty → Irene Clyde – Both Thomas Baty and Irene Clyde are used to refer to the individual. The name Thomas Baty is more commonly used when talking about their diplomatic and legal career serving the Empire of Japan, while Irene Clyde is more commonly used when talking about their contributions to the Urania magazine, science fiction, and the queer movement more broadly. As there is evidence that the individual preferred the name Irene Clyde and "longed to be a lady," and because the individual has a much stronger legacy as a queer activist and writer than as a public servant of the Empire of Japan, it would be appropriate to move the article to a page titled "Irene Clyde" out of respect for Clyde and to comply with Wikipedia's policies concerning transgender and gender non-conforming individuals. Sources: https://historicengland.org.uk/research/inclusive-heritage/lgbtq-heritage-project/activism-and-community-building/talking-back/; https://open.library.ubc.ca/soa/cIRcle/collections/ubctheses/24/items/1.0066742; https://www.jstor.org/stable/20719443?seq=4#metadata_info_tab_contents FactCheck105 (talk) 17:13, 28 September 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 21:59, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Question: Which aspects of their life are more notable and widely known? It seems that the Urania journal was published infrequently and had very low circulation and was thus not at all well known at the time of its production. (For the sake of clarity, I believe the vaguely referenced "policies" refers to MOS:GENDERID and MOS:S/HE.) —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:53, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Update: The article about Urania has been updated to correct its description of the publication frequency. It was published more often that what the article previously said, although still only 3–6 times per year. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:26, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I share the concerns of User:BarrelProof. The article's sources use mostly "Thomas Baty" and the nomination links are unconvincing. "Respect for Clyde" cannot be asserted for someone who died long ago and cannot weigh in on the issue. With "Irene Clyde" prominent in the first sentence of the article, I don't see a problem with the current title. — AjaxSmack 02:26, 6 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Updated article for name and pronoun consistency

I've come up with a compromise to try and best reflect Baty/Clyde's identity and based on how Pepperell handles it in her thesis here. I don't think there's a perfect solution, but I hope this works at least for the time being. Throughthemind (talk) 16:40, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In my view, it remains inappropriate and anachronistic to use they/them pronouns. I don't think a single Master's thesis suffices to introduce the change. How many scholarly sources use anything other than he/him? I don't think we should be rewriting articles on persons born in the 1800s to introduce pronouns they would not themselves have used. GhostOfNoMan 17:27, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And as noted, Baty never expressed any such preference. The compromise seems confusing and unnecessary. I think the article should use he/him throughout. GhostOfNoMan 17:32, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

> How many scholarly sources use anything other than he/him?

Here's several:

this book uses they/them: "If they were alive today, Clyde likely would fit a framework of trans identity"[1]
this academic paper uses she/her: "During this time, Clyde established herself as an editor and author of radical feminist thought"[2]
this thesis uses she/her: "Two of Clyde’s other books—her memoir Alone in Japan (1959) and her collection of essays on gender Eve’s Sour Apples (1934)—are out of print and have not been digitised."[3]
this academic paper uses his/her: "...a footnote in the introduction refers the reader to a volume of essays by I. Clyde entitled Eve's Sour Apples, in which Baty/Clyde takes as his/her watchwords 'feminism, aristocracy and pacifism'."[4]
this thesis uses she/her: "Clyde's feminine ideal was based on her image of a Victorian woman who combined the best characteristics of both sexes — sweetness and independence."[5]
this academic paper uses she/her: "I do not put a definitive label on Irene Clyde’s gender identity. For much of her life she presented male and was known as Thomas Baty; however, she wrote under the name of Irene and was known to use she/her pronouns. In the language of the time, it would have been said that she 'lived as a man' or 'lived as a woman', depending."[6]
this thesis uses his/their: "Clyde was one of the pseudonyms used by Thomas Baty, a British citizen who lived most of his/their life as a man, though he/they often attacked the gender binary in essays published throughout the course of his/their28 life (White)."[7]
this book chapter uses his/her: "One person who might well be understood as transgendered today, but who in his/her own time understood his/her sense of self in spiritual and political terms, was the British feminist Thomas Baty, who preferred to be known as Irene Clyde."[8]

Overall, there seems to not be a consensus on how to refer to Baty. They/them is only used in a couple of sources, but she/her is used commonly at least to refer to Irene Clyde when discussing this identity.

> And as noted, Baty never expressed any such preference. The compromise seems confusing and unnecessary. I think the article should use he/him throughout.

Having looked at a few articles of historical figures where there's no consensus of what pronouns to use in an article with a historical person of uncertain gender identity, it seems that the general consensus is to remove usage of pronouns altogether:

Based on this, I propose for this article to remove the usage of pronouns all together and to use the name Thomas Baty when referring to the public persona and Irene Clyde when discussing this identity and related works (with a note for clarity). Throughthemind (talk) 19:51, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to compile those sources.

It seems they/them has some limited use, although she/her is more frequent. I haven't tried to calculate even a rough ratio for each set of pronouns, but I do believe that he/him continues to dominate in academic writing. From a very preliminary search: Journal of International Legal History, University of Oxford Bodleian Libraries, Journal of Media History, Portraits of Women in International Law, International Journal of Law in Context. It may be losing ground in more recent writing, though, and I note some sources are inconsistent or avoid pronouns entirely.

Having looked at a few articles of historical figures where there's no consensus of what pronouns to use in an article with a historical person of uncertain gender identity, it seems that the general consensus is to remove usage of pronouns altogether

Yeah, that was broadly my conclusion too when I looked for enlightenment on policy/consensus/style, earlier. It also comes up in MOS:GIDINFO#Best practices: "If consensus cannot be reached over which pronouns to use for a subject, rewriting to avoid pronouns altogether may be considered." (Although rather few articles seem to belong to the category: Category:Articles tagged for avoiding gendered pronoun usage.)

Based on this, I propose for this article to remove the usage of pronouns all together and to use the name Thomas Baty when referring to the public persona and Irene Clyde when discussing this identity and related works (with a note for clarity).

I support this. It does away with the issue nicely, in my view. GhostOfNoMan 00:19, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Great! I've updated the article to reflect this decision. Feel free to improve any wording that doesn't flow well. Throughthemind (talk) 10:14, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]