Talk:Siege of Gaza City

Inclusion of al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades and National Resistance Brigades as belligerents

Hello all, the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades and the National Resistance Brigades of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine are significant belligerents in the Siege of Gaza City, which warrants their inclusion in the infobox.

Please see the below quotes from the Institute for the Study of War's Iran Updates, indicating that these groups have engaged Israeli forces in and around Gaza City since the beginning of the siege:

November 5th
...the Al Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade said they targeted Israeli vehicles in northwestern Gaza on November 5.
The National Resistance Brigades—the military wing of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine—mortared Israeli forces and fired anti-tank rockets at advancing Israeli vehicles southeast of Zaytoun neighborhood and south of Gaza City on November 5.
The Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades also mortared Israeli vehicles entering the al Samouni area near Zaytoun.
...the al Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades mortared advancing Israeli forces east of Juhor ad Dik, which is close to where Israeli forces entered the central Gaza Strip at the beginning of the ground operation.

November 9th
The National Resistance Brigades—the militant wing of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP)—claimed an RPG attack on an IDF personnel carrier northwest of Gaza city.
The al Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades—the self-declared militant wing of Fatah—similarly claimed to fire mortars at Israeli forces in the northwestern Gaza Strip.[13]

November 11th
The al Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades—the self-claimed militant wing of Fatah—mortared IDF soldiers in al Nasr neighborhood on November 11.

Thank you and best wishes SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 18:47, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

@SaintPaulOfTarsus: I agree it should include all the groups involved, but that needs citations?

al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades are only in the West Bank, as far as i know? Do you have a reference for them being involved in Gaza? They might be doing something in the West Bank in support, but that doesn't really count as belligerents in the siege itself. Do you have a citation for them doing the attack in al Nasr?

Kita2b Abu Ali PFLP are definitely involved. They are constantly announcing that they are shelling the neighboring settlements in retaliation, a bizarre thing to claim if they are not? and one of the refugee camp airstrikes even seemed to be aimed at one of them

I think the national resistance brigades DFLP were in 7 October attacks so probably are too.

Irtapil (talk) 17:03, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Support: it should be included as Hamas has repeatedly stated so as well as the IDF emphasizing that they have been involved Scarlet Strange (talk) 06:11, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Is it not a battle?

Israeli troops have already advanced into the city itself, even capturing the Hamas parliament building. Should the page not be called the "Battle of Gaza City"? President Loki (talk) 23:32, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

that is weird, the parliament building i saw photos of allegedly hadn't been used in years? Irtapil (talk) 16:48, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose it is a siege as stated by numerous reliable sources. Scarlet Strange (talk) 06:09, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

“24 vehicles destroyed”

Israel never mentioned this at any point and the claim itself is uncited. It should be removed or clarified Wordbearer88 (talk) 23:27, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Citation added. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1^{(The Garage)} 01:10, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Needs a source and possibly a qualifier. Al Qassam very often make claims of what has been "damaged or destroyed" and i suspect "damaged or…" might often cover the majority in those figures. Irtapil (talk) 16:47, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Support: We should ensure that all information is citied and not done by original research Scarlet Strange (talk) 06:09, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 10 December 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 03:30, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

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Siege of Gaza City → Battle of Gaza City (2023) – I think it makes sense to rename this article to Battle of Gaza City or Battle of Gaza (2023). There has been widespread fighting within the city for a while already, and Israeli forces control a large amount of the city. The Battle of Khan Yunis, which is the other major battle in this war is called a battle, and I believe this article should follow suit President Loki (talk) 07:09, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose – Several secondary reliable sources call this a siege.

1. New York Times - "First, it keeps Hamas uncertain about Israel’s next steps. And, at least for now, it allows Israeli soldiers to maintain a siege of Gaza City, where Hamas has dug a network of underground tunnels and fortifications."
2. ABC News - Video title "Deep inside Israel's siege of Gaza"
3. AP News - "Israeli troops battling Hamas militants encircled Gaza City on Thursday".
4. Wall Street Journal - "Thousands of Palestinians are fleeing the besieged northern Gaza area, some carrying white flags or pushing wheelchairs, seeking safety from the advancing Israeli military."
5. Reuters - "In Gaza City and Jabalia refugee camp, cut off from the rest of the Gaza Strip and encircled by Israeli troops after three weeks of blockade and bombardment, residents are struggling through a siege within a siege."
6. Oxfam - "Oxfam is gravely concerned for the lives of around 500,000 Palestinians, alongside any of the more than 200 Israeli and other national hostages, currently trapped in a “siege within a siege” in northern Gaza. Israeli forces have imposed a near-complete stranglehold on Gaza City and the northern region, effectively cutting the enclave in half from the border wall to the sea"..."Gaza City is closed off".

I bolded the phrases to make it easier to see. In this case, Wikipedia has to follow what the reliable sources describe is a siege. Hence, my oppose to a rename. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 07:19, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Most of these articles are in fact over a month old (with one being a little under a month old - dated to 14 November). According to data from ISW and CTP, Israeli forces have advanced far into the city. Therefore I don't believe it makes sense to keep calling it a siege under the current circumstances. President Loki (talk) 08:11, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose: Sieges involve military encirclement and then assault. This is a more precise and specific description than "battle", so even if it were not already the de facto language in the sources, it is the most appropriate and precise description for events as well. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:48, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 6 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Siege of Gaza City → Siege of Gaza City (2023–present)
• Siege of Gaza → Siege of Gaza (332 BC)

– Per WP:MILNAME, it is necessary to disambiguate the two different sieges of gaza. Adding 'city' to the 2023 siege is not enough to make it different from the 332 BC one, because Gaza has always been a city. Moreover, if the move succeeds we should also create Siege of Gaza (Disambiguation). Basque mapping (talk) 22:54, 6 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. voorts (talk/contributions) 05:52, 15 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Polyamorph (talk) 18:51, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: redirects, such as Battle of Gaza (2023), are ineligible to be current titles in move requests. "Battle of Gaza (2023) → Battle of Gaza (2023–present)" has been removed from this request to meet that requirement. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 08:31, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

• Easy Solution — I think we have easily surpassed WP:COMMONNAME criteria for the 2023/2024 siege. So, this should be treated like the various weather events are treated. The 2023/24 siege should remain as is Siege of Gaza City and the 332 siege should be renamed “Siege of Gaza (332 BC)”. This would be similar to how we have Hurricane Katrina (2005 common-name one) and Hurricane Katrina (1981) for the lesser-known one. This is no different. Basically, this article has no change and the 332 BC article gets a date added. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 08:37, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Islam has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 19:28, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Israel has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 19:29, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 19:30, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Military history has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 19:33, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Palestine has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 19:33, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Terrorism has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 19:33, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

• Easy solution per WeatherWriter, also fits WP:CONCISE. Obviously feel free to create as many redirects as desired afterwards ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 23:36, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose moving the one from antiquity, and question the use of "siege" here: I don't think that current events support the description of a "siege", and I'm not hearing of a "siege" in the news. A siege normally refers to surrounding and harassing a fortified place (a city, a castle) that hasn't been breached/invaded to force it to surrender. That's not what's been happening; there are no walls or defenses to speak of, no barriers to hamper ingress and egress. Maybe months ago news outlets used the word "siege" carelessly, but if that was ever a reasonable metaphor, it hasn't been for a long time. I'm not here to start an argument about politics or take sides on the conflict (I'm keeping my beliefs/feelings out of this discussion). But this just doesn't seem to fit the definition of a siege, so pre-empting the title of a historical event that actually was a siege seems like a mistake. P Aculeius (talk) 11:55, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

  The dictionary definition of "siege" is: "a military operation in which enemy forces surround a town or building, cutting off essential supplies, with the aim of compelling the surrender of those inside."

  It is most definitely a siege. Israeli military fighting around buildings, fighting to seize control over them and Hamas use said buildings as fortified positions to snipe at Israeli soldiers and tanks. Vladislavus76 (talk) 18:06, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Support easy solution: disambiguate the antiquity event with the date in parentheses + have the base name become a disambiguation page. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:35, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

support: We need to specify the time Thehistorianisaac (talk) 05:40, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Given Gaza was a city at all times of its history. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:42, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: There is consensus for a move of some sort, but two options have been proposed. Clarification needed on the preferred option. Polyamorph (talk) 18:51, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Support as we should specify the timeline to make it easier and to prevent the mix-up between them by lesser-known individuals Scarlet Strange (talk) 06:08, 22 January 2024 (UTC) Per WP:ARBECR. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 15:34, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose all moves and keep as is. The current setup is actually great, because there is no ambiguity between the two. The historic siege of Gaza was not a siege of Gaza City, because no such entity existed then. And the present siege of Gaza City is not a siege of the whole of Gaza. The current setup is concise and easy to follow, and there are excellent hatnotes for readers who end up in the wrong place.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:08, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose all moves and keep as is per Amakuru, the premise of the move request is wrong, there is no need to resolve any ambiguity, because there is none.Selfstudier (talk) 17:18, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Operation

"Northern Gaza Strip: The Israel Defense Force 162nd Division launched a new, division-size clearing operation in central and northern Gaza City in the past week. CTP-ISW assessed on February 3 that Palestinian fighters infiltrated southwestern Gaza City The IDF is conducting operations in the northern Gaza Strip to disrupt Hamas' attempts to reconstitute its governing authority."

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-february-5-2024 2.55.52.112 (talk) 11:25, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

More Accurace depiction of the number of casualties on each side

Under casualties it is written "unknown" on both sides. Israel has confirmed that 148 soldiers were killed and more than 8000 Hamas members were killed as well. Change "unknown" of Israel to "148 soldiers" and "unknown" of Hamas to "8000+ militants (per IDF)" Vladislavus76 (talk) 18:02, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Shadow311 (talk) 17:13, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

29 February event

The statement "Israeli forces opened fire on Palestinians waiting for food aid" is disputed by the Israeli side. Source.

"Palestinian officials said Israeli forces opened fire on the crowd, an account corroborated by eyewitnesses and doctors, who said many of the dead and the injured were brought in with bullet wounds. Israel disputed the casualty count and said people died in a stampede and not from Israeli fire — which officials described as warning shots not directed at the convoy."

"He acknowledged that IDF troops on one end of the convoy did fire at people who approached Israeli forces in a threatening manner, but he said the deaths occurred as the result of a crush at the other end of the convoy."

I propose to either include both descriptions, or to change the text to focus only on the undisputed aspects (e.g. "Israeli forces opened fire near Palestinians attempting to access food aid") Yoweiner (talk) 15:19, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Sebastian Haion and Yitzhak Hoffman

There are two Israeli commanders listed who appear to not have been especially notable in the siege, and are only written there because they were killed. Unless someone can find a source that says they had commanding roles in the siege of Gaza, I would recommend removing them from the list of Israeli commanders. The ultimate editorxyzyazz (talk) 00:17, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 April 2024

The text: "The Palestinian Civil Defence has restricted access to North Gaza, cut off from the rest of the strip by the Netzarim Corridor and is unable to conduct large scale body retrieval operations. They estimate that 10,000 civilians lie under the rubble" should be changed to: "The Palestinian Civil Defence has restricted access to North Gaza, cut off from the rest of the strip by the Netzarim Corridor and is unable to conduct large scale body retrieval operations. They estimate that 10,000 civilians lie under the rubble." 104.158.133.63 (talk) 23:10, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done I added the missing period, thanks. Jamedeus (talk) 00:35, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

[[File:|23x17px|border |alt=|link=]] Al-Quds Brigades

No flag information seems to be available for Al-Quds Brigades. Please remove the flag in the infobox. 142.117.133.114 (talk) 00:53, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Nothing on Hamas casualties

On the casualty part of the chart if appears that Hamas has suffered no casualties which is false The ultimate editorxyzyazz (talk) 17:56, 30 June 2024 (UTC)