Talk:Trials of Mana

Trials of Mana is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

Trials of Mana is part of the Mana series series, a good topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.

This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on August 2, 2020.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
April 9, 2014	Good article nominee	Listed
August 11, 2015	Good topic candidate	Promoted
January 16, 2016	Featured article candidate	Promoted

Current status: Featured article

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Name change

I understand that name changes are not always made when a game is come to be known as an old name for so long (ie Mother vs. EarthBound Beginnings). In this case however, with the significance of the localized version renaming the game and the remake doing the same, I feel that it would be best to get in front of it and adjust to what will likely come to be the more common name for a fair few people. Plus, being a Japanese name, it feels like a different situation than Mother. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 22:42, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

W-well then - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 22:46, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree- this game has been known, in Japanese and in English, as "Seiken Densetsu 3", for 24 years, with hundreds of sources calling it such- I don't think that a collection release under a different name for 1 day takes precedence over that. --Pres N 04:36, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that needed a formal Requested Move to move the page. (It wasn't Abryn who moved the page though). Hill Crest's WikiLaser! (BOOM!) 11:53, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I am a good girl who loves consensus uwu. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 19:07, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Haha, just for that, I'm going to leave it while posting at WT:VG, instead of moving it back first. --Pres N 19:59, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Trials of Mana remake article

I guess I'll start a second discussion! I also think that a remake article would be valuable, seeing as how this one is already quite proficient and how drastic a remake it is. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 22:48, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What should the remake's article title be? Trials of Mana (2020 video game)? Hill Crest's WikiLaser! (BOOM!) 23:49, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I was thinking, yeah. I'd take a crack at it but I'm a little bogged down by things. If no one else does, I will make sure to check it out when I can. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 01:09, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I like the idea of this as a separate article, especially as the development continues. It could just be put on Trials of Mana when it's created, as it will be the primary topic. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 20:38, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I dunno if I agree with that. I think it'd be appropriate for ToM to be about the original release, given its significance. If, of course, the article stays with this title. - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 20:50, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Early signs are that this article will stay at ToM, so the remake will have the be at something else... based on prior Mana precedent, I think it's likely this remake will be able to support its own article. --Pres N 21:07, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever happens, I consider how would one cite an interview made only available on video? There's an interview on Gamespot where a Square Enix representative reveals that the game's original composer is back to handle the music for the remake. The interview is here, with the reveal at the 8 minute 45 second mark. 98.206.136.4 (talk) 16:26, 15 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's not a problem; after all, some citations aren't even easily accessible (like magazine citations). - Bryn (talk) (contributions) 17:40, 15 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 7 March 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: There is consensus against moving the article back to SD3. These situations are always tricky and unique and it can be difficult to weigh the historical title used for decades versus the more recent localized English title (Earthbound Beginnings has it even worse) but this discussion makes it clear a large majority of editors have determined that at this point in time, the better title for this topic is "Trials of Mana". (non-admin closure) Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 12:21, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Trials of Mana → Seiken Densetsu 3 – This article about the 1995 Famicom game, not its 2019 rerelease, or its upcoming remake, so it should have never been moved to Trials of Mana. Looking at the sourcing used in this very article, they all continue to use the name Seiken Densetsu 3 when writing about the original release, the upcoming remake, and the collection that was released. This is after all how English sourcing has referred to it for over 20 years. More recent reliable sources continue referring to the game by this name, and use Trials of Mana to refer exclusively to the rerelease/upcoming remake. Examples of this include: Nintendo Life, Gematsu, Destructoid. From this, I think it is safe to say that the WP:COMMONNAME is still Seiken Densetsu 3. Alt (talk) 06:49, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Per the nomination. My searches and the references in the article still mostly refer to the game as Seiken Densetsu 3, because unlike Secret of Mana, it didn't release outside of Japan until the compilation came. The remake is referred to as Trials of Mana (for which an article can be created once that comes out). Jovanmilic97 (talk) 11:43, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support: If someone makes an article about the remake then the remake page can have the title Trials of Mana without any disambiguation. OceanHok (talk) 18:25, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the game is famous for not being localized so it never had a localized name. That doesnt mean we should stick with the original title because that's what people have been referring it to. Trials of Mana is still the official localized name now. And first time readers who never heard of this game will most likely get confused why wikipedia opted for the japanese title when the official english title exist: here are examples where reviewers are now referring the original game as simply trials of mana. [1][2] [3] and [4]. Granted they initiate to clarify that this was SD3 but they continue to keep the status quo of Trials.
So there are reviews now recognizing the third entry as "Trials". We should treat this similar to Story of Seasons / Harvest Moon and give it time. I believe the confusion exists because both the port and the remake were announced at the same time and there wasnt enough to clarify properly. Trials of Mana is the official name for both the port and the remake.Blue Pumpkin Pie ^Chat ^Contribs 19:23, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: This game has been given the official translated title Trials of Mana in a direct official port as part of the Collection of Mana from Square Enix themselves. It's not just the remake, but the original that's been given this name. I think the lead covers it as well as can be done. Maybe rephrase it to "known prior to 2019 as Seiken Densetsu 3" to give a timeline to players. Sidelining its official localised title isn't right. --ProtoDrake (talk) 19:33, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as per ProtoDrake's statements. Square Enix gave it the official name of Trials of Mana when they ported the original game to the Collection of Mana and the reviews have recognized it as the official title. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 08:49, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: I see both sides of the debate, but I lean towards keeping it at Trials of Mana per ProtoDrake's statement. A similar situation happened with Mother/EarthBound Beginnings a few years ago, but they differ slightly to me because the original/Japanese title isn't in English (Mother is still an English word). ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 09:52, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:USEENGLISH. Sergecross73 msg me 14:25, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support – I am convinced primarily by the sources provided by AlternateRT, which refer to Seiken Densetsu 3 as such without even mentioning its US rerelease at all. "The 1995 game" etc. Even some of the sources linked by Blue Pumpkin Pie suggest that Seiken Densetsu 3 is still the common name for the game, with lines such as "What’s Trials of Mana? It’s the new official U.S. name for Seiken Densetsu 3, the Super Nintendo sequel" and "Trials of Mana, the very first officially localised version of Seiken Densetsu 3.". This is not to mention all the historic sources we have on this game, like the Retro Gamer issue I have in my room which has "Seiken Densetsu 3" all over its front cover. To me, it seems like "Trials of Mana" is just a specific version, a specific release, of Seiken Densetsu 3. Moreover, this will help out greatly with disambiguation with the remake coming out. I don't see any reason for this article to be titled "Trials of Mana" to be honest; I personally was barely aware this English-language release of the game even existed... ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 09:21, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The sources provided have since changed the status quo and continue to refer to the game as "ToM". I dont consider it common name to initiate the distinction. And it makes sense to clarify what Trials of Mana because we've never had that game. This is the original game. It just released years later in a different console. Doesnt change the fact that Seiken Densetsu 3 = Trials of Mana. So the remake renamed as Trials of mana just adds to the confusion. Reliable sources will treat the name for both the port and the remake while wikipedia only gives it to the remake.Blue Pumpkin Pie ^Chat ^Contribs 09:47, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We don't have an article on the port. We have an article on the 1995 game. I would consider the 2019 port technically a separate topic. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 09:58, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's a bizzare statement. The very definition of a port is that it's the same game on a new platform. The 2019 release IS The 1995 game. How in the world could it be a separate topic? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 12:29, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Eh, it’s getting a bit confusing with some of the terminology and timeframes, but to clarify for them, the game received a 2019 English language basic port through the compilation release Collection of Mana, and is receiving a full blown, radically redone remake in April 2020. It’s being called Trials of Mana for both, FYI. Sergecross73 msg me 22:14, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Per WP:USEENGLISH. A Japanese name shouldn't be used when an official English name exists._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 12:50, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose move. By this point, it appears the localized name is the common name. O.N.R. ^(talk) 13:27, 10 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support SD3 was released a quarter-century ago for the Super Famicom and has never had an English title until last year. The 2020 game should either be a separate article or have a dedicated article section with its own infobox. "Trials of Mana" is not the localized title of the SF game considering it was never localized; it's the title of the remake. Moving "Seiken Densetsu 3" to "Trials of Mana" is akin to moving Final Fantasy VII to Final Fantasy VII Remake. Corporal (talk) 05:12, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Except that it's literally the localized title of the original game, released last year in the Collection of Mana. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 05:17, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I missed that the SF game WAS actually localized and released in a compilation, so most of my argument was based on a false premise :) Still not sure that it should be moved, but the remake will still need to be a separate article once there's enough information on it. Corporal (talk) 05:21, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I was pinged here a while ago but never got around to this until now. I think WP:USEENGLISH applies. JOE BRO 64 17:52, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I suggest the page would be split into two different pages, one about the original 1995 game, and the 2020 game, like how there are separate pages for the 1998 game Resident Evil 2 and its 2019 remake. Matthew Cenance (talk) 03:51, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That already happened.--69.157.252.96 (talk) 22:23, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. It is the English name, and WP:USEENGLISH applies. And the current disambiguation using with the addition of (2020 video game) for the remake works well enough. WarChild (talk) 02:37, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:NAMECHANGES: If ... reliable sources written after the name change is announced continue to use the established name, Wikipedia should continue to do so as well. As per sources provided by the nominator and noted by Maplestrip, sources written after the name change continue to use the established name Seiken Densetsu 3 for the 1995 game. Thus, we should continue to do so as well. Note to discussion closer: if this is closed as "no consensus", this article should be moved back to Seiken Densetsu 3, which had been the stable title for this article before it was unilaterally moved to its present title in June 2019, fourteen years after this article was created. feminist (talk) 10:24, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Quotes in sources

So, with the upcoming Trials of Mana re-release upon us, we'll have to figure out a way to approach the sources which contains the translated quotes and dialogue. Should we use the earlier fan translation or Square Enix's official English translations? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:41, 18 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ideally we should use the official English quotes, since that's what we use in-article for character names and the name of the game itself. --Pres N 04:50, 19 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Collection of Mana and ROMs

The international Collection of Mana release of Trials of Mana was actually localized as a SNES game. Hidden inside the Switch game's data files is a group of SNES ROM files containing the localized versions of the game. These localized ROM files will actually run if played on a SNES (using a flash cart, etc.). In other words, instead of reworking the game into a Switch game then translating that, Square actually localized the SNES ROM then put it into a SNES emulator. But I can't put this information on the main page, because I don't have a source on it. -- Myria (talk) 17:09, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's hardly relevant, because it's a pretty common practice. Also, the way you wrote the above implies that they didn't do the same for the Japanese version, which they almost certainly did. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 05:18, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]