Talk:Samus Aran/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

The Woman Behind the Visor

The Metroid Database has a new feature chronicling the development of Samus Aran as a character:

The Woman Behind the Visor (retrieved November 8, 2008)

I'm not entirely sure where in the article we can cite this, so I'll just leave this link here for anyone who can. Abodos (talk) 21:18, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

We certainly wouldn't be able to use it as a citation anywhere, since the Metroid Database is a fansite, and so not a reliable source under Wikipedia definition. At most, we could add a link for this in the External Links section, but there's already a thorough profile of Samus courtesy of IGN, so I don't see much of a need. Arrowned (talk) 23:12, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

How Old do you think Samus is?

I'd say mid-to-late twenties, but that's just my guess. I know that none of the games directly states her age, but I'm just asking to get your opinions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.157.91.25 (talk) 09:24, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

The fact is, she appears differently in different games. In fact, I would say she looks older in MP1 than MP3. Not to mention that the time between games is never given. It's impossible to tell for sure, but she clearly can't be more than early thirties.--_ZXCVBNM 07:41, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

There's also the fact that this is a fictional universe, and one that takes place in a seemingly futuristic environment. It's highly possible that human lifespans are different in the Metroid setting. On top of that, Samus is not completely human anymore; she's hybridized with Chozo blood (and Metroid blood as of Fusion), and we have no idea what the suit does to her physicality.

I would say that she is around mid to late twenties. She was born during or after the year 2000 AD, and the series takes place around 20X5. This means the game could be anywhere from 2015 to 2095, but I do t think it would make sense at all for her to be 95. She is probably about twenty to twenty-five years old in the first Metroid for the Nintendo Entertainment System, and closer to twenty-five or thirty by the end of the timeline. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Castlevania Boy (talk • contribs) 22:25, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

In a nutshell, real world logic need not apply. King Zeal (talk) 13:19, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I hate to be a party pooper, but this is a question better suited for a discussion forum. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 16:30, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

-Agreed. Despite this being a very interesting question, it has nothing to do with improving the article. 70.243.34.104 (talk) 18:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

We're not 100% sure what her age might be, but many officials say that Samus Aran is 25 years old. She joined the Federation Military at age 15-17 (Other M and Manga)

If you're thinking of adding her age in the info box, don't do it. It's not a necessary inclusion. Good question tho! GeekFreak98 (talk) 13:30, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

"Appearances" Section?

Looking at the section, it seems like the list of summaries of her appearances in every Metroid game don't jive well with the article. Maybe it would be better if the section just summarized her roles throughout the series in prose, and let the actual game articles summarize the plot.--_ZXCVBNM 19:16, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

It should be probably be done something like Master Chief (Halo) (an FA), although that was promoted in 2007; Gravemind (a GA) is more recent. Gary King (talk) 19:37, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone have references for the unreferenced information?

To begin with, does anyone got references for the ton of unreferenced information in this article? Gary King (talk) 07:28, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Jennifer Hale voices Samus in the Prime trilogy?

User:Kung Fu Man pointed me to this video (also at here) of an interview with Jennifer Hale, who apparently voiced Samus in the Prime trilogy. There is no mention of her in this article, so that should perhaps be corrected, preferably with some reliable sources. Could someone also remind me as to when Samus actually says anything in the Prime trilogy, as I thought she was a non-speaking role? Gary King (talk) 16:43, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Heh, she voiced Samus, but only for the various grunts and miscellaneous sound effects. AFAIK, Samus only speaks in the 2D games, particularly Metroid Fusion.--_ZXCVBNM 21:41, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

For the record, reliable sources are very hard to find for this. The article originally did mention Jennifer Hale, but this conversation on the Jennifer Hale talk page back in October explains why we removed it, and also the ridiculous extent I went looking for proper sources without finding anything legitimate. Maybe you'll be able to find something with three months having passed (or perhaps you just have better Google-fu than I do), but I'm not holding out much luck. Unless the argument can be made of a Youtube video being reliable, which IIRC, is a very sticky subject. Arrowned (talk) 02:41, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for the insight. I was definitely not aware of the previous conversations on this. Gary King (talk) 03:29, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I've used the UltraNeko video interview from her website as a reference using the proper cite interview format. -Sesu Prime (talk) 06:06, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
You may want to look here to see what I have to say on this topic. -Sesu Prime (talk) 02:56, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

-This is kinda like Link's voice in Legend of Zelda. 70.243.34.104 (talk) 18:23, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

She talks in OM, so who voices her there? 75.157.115.154 (talk) 04:16, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Some gal named Jessica Martin. sesuprime 20:12, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Metroid: Other M

Do you think there should be a picture of Samus's face when it is released? Wyndia (talk) 23:23, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but I don't see a reason to wait for the release of the game. I've always thought an image of Samus' face would be beneficial to the article, but I suppose one could have argued that seeing her face wasn't really necessary to understanding the character, as it was typically only shown for a few seconds at the very end of the games. But since Other M seems to feature Samus' face extensively throughout the game, it has become a major part of the character, so I think it really is necessary now.

The Zero Suit has become her most recognizable form outside of the Power Suit, so I nominate this still I took from the third (and most recent) Other M trailer to be included in the article. This would bring the fair-use image count to three, but I think that's justified because each image will be serving a very deliberate purpose toward informing readers about the character. Thoughts? -sesuPRIME 12:18, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

What is the rationale that you intend on using for it, what caption will you give it, and which section will you put it in? Gary King (talk) 17:51, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

The fair-use rationale will explain that seeing her face is essential to having a thorough understanding of the character. Neither of the two images currently in the article really show what the character looks like. Is she designed to look cute or sexy? Even ugly? Does she have big anime eyes? Does she look like an 18 year-old? Or more like 40? All of this information is completely lost without an image of her face.

A caption like "Samus, as she appears in a cutscene from Metroid: Other M" is all I can come up with right now, but something that ties more directly into the section text would work better. And finally, I think "Fictional biography" would be the most fitting section for the new image, then the NES screenshot could be moved to "Sexuality" (seems appropriate since it shows the defining moment she was revealed to be female). Thoughts on all this? -sesuPRIME 01:49, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Go ahead and do it. Personally I would prefer to include the image, but if and when this article gets to FAC, we'll have to see what they say. Gary King (talk) 02:26, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

 Done - I think it'll be fine; Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask have three fair-use images each and they've been FAs for as long as I can remember. And we'll be able to add a more descriptive caption when the game is released and we know the context of that scene. Cheers! -sesuPRIME 03:29, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

The Other M teaser trailer shows Samus when she was a teenager, with short hair. Should we include a shot of her when she was younger? And the "Sexuality" tag should be changed to something else: it kinda makes it sound like the section is discussing her sexual orientation rather than how she's "a woman in a man's world" and Nintendo's pin-up girl. 75.157.115.154 (talk) 04:14, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I think her "present day" look is the one we should continue using as it's more widely recognized and more relevant to the series as a whole. I see what you mean about the "Sexuality" header though. Maybe "Femininity" would work better? sesuprime 20:12, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

She definitely has more masculine qualities than feminine ones. The Sexuality header is technically accurate per the dictionary definition: "The condition of being characterized and distinguished by sex." Gary King (talk) 03:41, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

True, "Sexuality" isn't incorrectly used, but it can be misleading. According to Wiktionary, it can also mean "sexual activity", "the concern with, or interest in sexual activity", "sexual potency" and, of course, "sexual orientation". While it works, it's less than ideal. How about using "Femininity and masculinity" or "Femininity versus masculinity", or just "Masculinity"? sesuprime 13:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

If I am reading a section in this article entitled "Masculinity", it better be because the section reveals that she's secretly a man ;) The "Sexuality" section talks about how she is considered a sex object, how she is a breakthrough character for females, how she is one of the sexiest video game characters, etc. So I think the title is an accurate one. Gary King (talk) 17:38, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Haha, you have a point there. Cheers. sesuprime 04:14, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

It's kinda hard to be a "breakthrough character for females" if you are "considered a sex object". It just seems like objectification to me. Still, she does fall under the category of the sterotypical "36-24-36-plus woman", like most female video game characters do, though her physique changes from game to game: in Corruption, her figure looks more realistic than in Brawl or Other M. Perhaps "Gender Role" or something similar would make a better title for the "Sexuality" section, as in modern society "sexuality" is more widly recognized as having other connotations than "The condition of being characterized and distinguished by sex." 75.157.120.15 (talk) 18:58, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

under sexuality...

"Heidi Dangelmaier, a computer science graduate from Princeton University, conducted research on developing interactive titles for game manufacturers before pursuing a business in which she works with manufacturers to expand video games to target girls more. In an article for The Washington Post, she remarks that she was unhappy with what she considered a halfhearted attempt to include girls in the audience for video games. Dangelmaier said of Samus and Capcom's Cammy video game character: "That's not a woman, that's a drag queen. [...] Does she have the right contours? Sensibilities? Sense? Probably she's quite brutal. I don't think this is a role model for women or something we would aspire to be. [...] You're going to find some girls who like these games, but generally they know they're being left out."

Why is that bit included? it should be deleted. who cares what this woman said? it has little if not nothing to do with the actual Samus character at all, her personality, or her sexuality. Men could oogle at anything, and will, so what? The character of Samus is pretty much the adoptive mother to an alien life form thought only capable of destruction for crying out loud! The article should be about things like that, and not quotes from people who've never played the games that completely contradict the strong AND compassionate woman character that she is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Magicbologna (talk • contribs) 16:30, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

just because some is transgendered doesnt meqn they are less of whatever gender they identify as transwomen are women and the female representation is still highly aware. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AKA X (talk • contribs) 12:47, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Nintendo hasn't verified Samus' sexuality yet and it's best kept to not acknowledge her sexuality yet until Nintendo officially states it. GeekFreak98 (talk) 14:49, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Replace infobox image?

Now that Nintendo has released some proper Other M artwork of Samus in the Varia Suit, it seems like an appropriate time to update the infobox image. Or this image might work better overall since it can also replace the closeup of her face, cutting the article's fair-use image count from three to two. Thoughts? sesuprime 04:36, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

So... Yes? No? sesuprime 22:47, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

seems like a good idea Magicbologna (talk) 14:40, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think the second one should be used, the half-profile angle makes it kind of difficult to properly present Samus' look (the human form even more than the Power Suit incarnation). Although I consider the other Other M screenshot only a slight improvement, being just a face shot and so on... I would give it a wait till the game comes out, maybe it will provide some more appropriate images. Prime Blue (talk) 23:04, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

I have to disagree completely, I think that second image Sesu Prime linked to is perfect for the page. I would hardly call it obscured or "difficult to present" It's way better then the second picture that is on the page now, and could easily replace both of them, if there is a concern about image count. It's a good picture that would look nice on the page showing Samus in both forms. Magicbologna (talk) 02:42, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, a portrait-type pose would be best for both the Varia and unsuited images, I guess I'm just eager to see the infobox updated with some Other M artwork, but there's no harm in waiting. I also agree that the article's second image isn't the greatest, but I felt the article was in desperate need of her exposed face from Other M (see above) and there aren't too many clear shots of her unsuited "present day" look in the trailers. sesuprime 06:35, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Stallion Free from NeoGAF has uploaded clean Other M screenshots. It might not be super glossy as it does not come from an FMV, but I think this full frontal shot of her in-game Zero Suit model is better than what we currently have, and a clearer indication of her looks than the render. If it's purely a quantity issue, I'd rather see the revelation one go: The section talks about sex appeal and gender roles, and also mentions the Zero Suit. Given that that representation of her probably comes second in importance after the Power Suit version, I find it more relevant. Prime Blue (talk) 22:14, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Its all wrong

history of metroid that you put on the wiki is completely wrong, you've made a lot of unnecessary trips! history is simply: Metroid-Samus zebes goes on to destroy the pirates. metroid 2-Samus must destroy metroid sr388 on the pirates were divided into two groups, one went on heels (to study phazon) and the other is back on zebes (for rebuilding), and you save a baby Metroid Samus it brings with it. Metroid 3 (Super Metroid)-steals the only metroid ridley, Samus rescued from the pirates and multiply, Samus top zebes pirates and destroyed once and for all. metroid 4 (Metroid Fusion) Samus top-sr388 and is infected by x, in this chapter Samus discovers that the Fed had kept the metroid, the Finn this chapter seems that Metroid will be extinguished once and for all, but Actually there were many others on other planets. Metroid Prime 1, 2 and 3-history to know, because you've written, and with the death of Dark Samus ending the latest chapter in metroid. Metroid Prime Hunters "does not have a specific position in the history of the saga's first reference to show that your history is wrong and Ridley, Ridley fact you have these changes:-meta-ridley ridlei-omega-ridley and strangely after becoming ridley Omega Ridley returns to be in super metroid and this is not the same-in metroid fusion ridley is normal and frozen in my history instead:-ridley ridley-back-again super metroid ridley frozen in cast-meta-ridley ridley my omega makes more sense the second reference is that all first analyzing the scans can be seen that often speaks of when Samus destroyed zebes. also in super metroid and metroid fusion and two never speak of phason in the summaries of the adventures of Samus. for metroid hunters did not understand the criterion by which you have placed. In short you have the big stoner and you do not understand why you have changed throughout history that Nintendo had delivered in the right order. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.7.167 (talk) 19:04, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

What? Chronologically, the Prime series takes place between the 1st and second Metroid games, and Other M takes place between Super Metroid and Fusion. Is that the order in which the games were developed? No. Like the Legend of Zelda series, the games are not developed in chronological order, and newer games are being made that take place before, between, and even during existing titles. That is why phazon isn't mentioned in the games following the Prime series. 75.157.120.15 (talk) 19:04, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Portion of Metroid: Other M Iwata Asks

[1] It discusses Samus. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 02:56, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Is Samus her given name or her surname?

Do we ever learn that? Serendi^podous 19:39, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I think that Aran is her surname. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 18:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Wow, her full name is Samus Aran. And I thought I had an Irish name.

The reason for Samus leaving the GFP should be expanded a little.

I'm not saying any info is wrong, but as far as I know, Nintendo hasn't stated that a single specific event shown in any media is the sole reason for her leaving the GFP. Obviously what was shown in Other M is the most known history in USA as to why Samus could have left the GFP, but the manga that was made as her official history shows a completely different event before fastforwarding to her as a bounty hunter. In the manga, she is last seen as part of the GFP when the Space Pirates make an attack on Zebes. At the end of chapter 5, before Samus leaves for Zebes, she is told that the army will make a massive attack on the planet in 48 hours, during which Samus and her two GFP friends and partners go with her to the planet to save the chozo before the army's attack. At the end of chapter 12, the GFP arrived at the planet after it was too late to save some of the chozo, including Old Bird and Gray Voice. They were the two main chozo who raised her as well as Gray Voice being the one whose chozo DNA was integrated into her, Adam was her closest human father figure, but Gray Voice raised her. These two chozo are the ones shown with Samus when obtaining the gravity suit in Zero Mission, so they can't just be disregarded since they are even in at least one game. At the end of chapter 12 she promises to him (after he sacrificed himself fighting Ridley) that she would continue to fight and called him "Father." Then chapter 13 goes to a few years afterwards, with her as a bounty hunter.

Like I said, Nintendo hasn't stated the exact reason for her leaving (although it is greatly implied in Other M), but regardless, this event in the manga is another HUGE event in her history that could be the reason she left the GFP. Either one of these could be the sole reason, or one could have happened shortly before or after the other, either way, I think what happened in chapters 6 through 12 in the manga (the space pirate attack on Zebes) should be mentioned in her biography. At the very least, the sentence about her leaving the GFP because of the event with Adam's brother should make note of this event as well and say that either or both could be why she left.68.81.162.70 (talk) 21:52, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

HE IS IN SUPER SMASH BROS BRAWL. IT IS A SUIT! HALFORDS! BY AMMAR! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.232.57 (talk) 20:23, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

A couple concerns

One is that it never addresses the the Zero Suit in terms of critical commentary, and I'm sure that such commentary exists due to its appearance in Brawl; and the other is a lack of development info concerning her role in Metroid: Other M. Here are some links: [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 22:07, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

PTSD

According to a psychiatrist and a veteran soldier, both who reviewed the cutscene in Metroid: Other M where Ridley confronts her, Samus has Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. Should this be included in the article? 142.26.194.190 (talk) 21:07, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Other M may or may not be canon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Castlevania Boy (talk • contribs) 22:27, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Are there sources for this? Is this notable? — KieferSkunk (talk) — 07:12, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Pelé

Samus’ name is based on Edson Arantes do Nascimento, the soccer player better known as Pelé:

“Even the name of the protagonist could be put together in this manner, and if I wanted to give someone a strange name, I could refer to Pelé’s name.” - Hiroji Kiyotake

“Kiyotake, If you check if Pelé’s real name was ‘Samus Arantes,’ that’s a little incorrect. He’s called ‘Something’ Arantes Nascimento, and only ‘Aran’ matches. (Laughs)” - Yoshio Sakamoto

Source — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lampiaio (talk • contribs) 21:55, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Samus Aran/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

Article does not comply with MoS fiction. The Manual of Style says fictional elements should not be described from an in-universe perspective. The entire fictional biography section needs to be rewritten or removed. –IsaacAA (talk) 20:54, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

It's essentially a Plot section, just like what you would find in a movie or video game article. It's the only part of an article that is mostly written in-universe; even then, as recommended by the guidelines, it's suggested that the article ground the section in the real world. Well, this section already does, by mentioning the games and in which game some of the facts come from, etc. Gary King (talk · scripts) 01:16, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Then it should be listed by the works of fiction it draws from, for example if the first two paragraphs are the plot of the manga, it should be mentioned, preferably as a subsection called "depiction in manga" or similar, and not a fictional biography. –IsaacAA (talk) 03:41, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay; the article will probably need more time for someone to work on it than a GAR will allow, then. Gary King (talk · scripts) 05:01, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I rewrote "Fictional Biography" as "Description", is it OK now? igordebraga ≠ 13:22, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, seems to be in compliance with the MoS Writing about fiction section except for the use of past tense. Thank you very much. –IsaacAA (talk) 08:11, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Character Decline

I tried to add her decline in he character development but it was deleted, but if you go on the site http://second-truth.blogspot.com/2010/09/samus-is-slowly-shrinking.html you will see why I attempted to make that edit. --203.206.73.28 (talk) 11:08, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

It wouldn't surprise me if the next game of her will be the last, because the ratings will drop so low that the franchise will likely be stabbed in the back in the near future. --203.206.73.28 (talk) 11:08, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:RS. --Niemti (talk) 12:28, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Feminist Backlash

As I stated before after the release of the next instalment she would be chickified to death and the developers will be forced to pull the plug on the franchise. This will cause a major outrage amongst the feminist organisation and they would claim all males are in favour of reducing heroines to damsel in distresses and state that all male players are chauvinist and future games with a male lead role will be banned if not then boycotted. Any female lead will also be denied even if they are not faux action girls or equalised because they find everything misogynistic and nothing misandric. I tried to add the backlash to her reception but it was deleated. Can anyone tell me why? --124.148.98.197 (talk) 11:00, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, where is this coming from? Do you have a source for all of this? If so, it'd be best to provide it. If this is just your personal editorial/speculation/essay, then it's being removed due to being original research, which is not acceptable on Wikipedia. Sergecross73 msg me 13:39, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Both the critics and the players believe that her character has declined. The aim of Metroid Other M wasn't to empower women but rather weaken them for simply because they thought chickifacation sells. --124.148.98.197 (talk) 14:39, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

You'll need to provide reliable sources that back up what you're saying, or it will be continued to be removed. (For example, a link to an IGN or Eurogamer article that discusses the decline in character.) Also, it'd probably help if you use real, or more common words; I don't believe "chickification" is a real word, and as such, people are probably going to be even more likely to challenge the information. Sergecross73 msg me 15:02, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't make up the word, I adopted its meaning from TV Tropes. There are many who agree with me on Youtube but that site wouldn't be considered a reliable source either. --124.148.98.197 (talk) 15:23, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

You are correct, random users on Youtube don't qualify as a reliable source. If it's any consolation, there's some information already in the article that is similar, I believe, to what you're getting at.

G4 TV's Abbie Heppe considered a portrayal of Samus as "sexist"; she wrote that she "cannot possibly wield the amount of power she possesses unless directed to by a man", and found that her anxiety attack cannot be reconciled with her previous portrayals.[37]

If you find a reliable source that supports what you're saying, (though like I said, this is already close as it is), you'd probably want to model your additions to be similar to this. Sergecross73 msg me 15:31, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Try to find more sources like the G4 TV one. I think you have a great point, and accusations of sexism are probably rooted in reality. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:54, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Douse Second Truth that I provided in the above section count because I tried to add her character decline on the Damsel in distress pages but it was deleted several times. I tried to discuss it but a user said it was a personal view but I said it was general views both from the writers perspective and the viewers perspective and so far I have received no response. --58.7.111.155 (talk) 10:08, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Have you read everything I just said in this section here? Because it sounds like the exact same thing I just explained. You need reliable sources to back up what you say. If you're talking about this edit, it was removed because it was written like a personal essay, without any sources to back up what is said.

The sources come from the information from the games, books and comics. --58.7.111.155 (talk) 10:27, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

lol --Niemti (talk) 10:50, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Those are WP:PRIMARY sources. While those are good at sourcing information (for example, gameplay plot) putting it in reception is inappropriate. Thanks CyanGardevoir ^{(used EDIT!)} 01:01, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Not only that, but surely, while the games/books/comics may provide information, there's no way they provided the literal value judgements that the IP was throwing out there. It's not like Nintendo licensed a comic that literally comes out and says "We're going to portray Samus in a more sexist light" or something. Those were WP:OR conclusions... Sergecross73 msg me 02:36, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

The chronicles of her character decline were probably unintentional before Metroid Fusion but after the realese of MF they deliberately brought her down since the franchise has recived major critism since 2002. Alomst like how The Simpsons characters were deliberately brought down in 1998 at the begining of the first episode of season 9 since the DVDs beyond the eigth season aren't in print. --120.151.106.44 (talk) 04:03, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I believe the next Metroid will downgrade her character even further in which she is removed from the spotlight and a is replaced by a male who rescues her similar to Peach or Zelda. The ratings will be so poor that it would end the franchise completely and permanently. --58.7.138.14 (talk) 10:46, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Would you all kindly stop using this talk page as a forum for original reaearch and your POV feelings, and notice the section just below it? Thanks. --Niemti (talk) 10:55, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I just fell like I'm being targeted at being labelled a The chronicles of her character decline were probably unintentional before Metroid Fusion but after the realese of MF they deliberately brought her down since the franchise has recived major critism since 2002. Alomst like how The Simpsons characters were deliberately brought down in 1998 at the begining of the first episode of season 9 since the DVDs beyond the eigth season aren't in print. --120.151.106.44 (talk) 04:03, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I believe the next Metroid will downgrade her character even further in which she is removed from the spotlight and a is replaced by a male who rescues her similar to Peach or Zelda. The ratings will be so poor that it would end the franchise completely and permanently. --58.7.138.14 (talk) 10:46, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Would you all kindly stop using this talk page as a forum for original reaearch and your POV feelings, and notice the section just below it? Thanks. --Niemti (talk) 10:55, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I will stop now I just feel targeted for being called a chauvinist because I happen to be a male. I have posted those sources in the reference section but I couldn't get them to be numbered can someone else number them along with the rest. --58.7.138.14 (talk) 11:13, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Although I agree with Niemi about not using this talk for personal speculation, I have to add something in about this, especially to shoot down people who complain she's being feminized beyond help. This also has to do with what someone mentioned above about her having PTSD, it may not have been stated in the series, but it's too obvious to anyone that understands her history and what PTSD is. Ridley killed everyone on her home planet, parents included, the core event to her PTSD. In the manga, during her first encounter with Ridley while she is still in the GFP, she has an anxiety attack, but after this she overcomes it and becomes able to fight him. And while she has fought with him many times, each time she had seen him at least once before actually fighting him, and after each encounter Ridley disappears (never actually killed, like in Prime 1 he falls into the crater). Fastforward to Super Metroid, she finally kills Ridley, Ridley is finally ACTUALLY DEAD, no ifs ands or buts. Fastforward to Other M, Ridley is back from the dead this time, and while he did make a few appearances, it was in other forms, so Samus didn't even know he was back. He just suddenly appears right in front of her, not to mention his really sinister looking appearance, anyone in her situation and with her history would have another anxiety attack. But like how she was able to fight him previously, she's quickly able to fight against him again.

Also, anyone trying to say she's being feminized because of her situation with Adam, just grow up. She lost her first two father figures (biological human and adoptive Chozo parent), her third father figure was Adam. And while she may not have agreed with him, anyone with love for their parent wouldn't be thrilled to see them sacrifice themself the way he did. Also about her following his orders even though she's a bounty hunter, she is constantly contracted with the GFP (like a mercenary more than a bounty hunter), and given that she lives in the Federation, why would anyone go into a space station with guns blazing in front of a Commander from the GFP. I'm one of the apparent few people that see her getting more depth to her character rather than being feminized. Although they did royally screw up her physical proportions in Other M (standing shorter than the men outside the Power Suit and taller than them when in it), but that has nothing to do with her personality.69.248.33.85 (talk) 05:04, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

A few more sources that you might use for Reception

• http://www.empireonline.com/features/50-greatest-video-game-characters/default.asp?film=26
• http://www.gamefront.com/the-greatest-boobs-in-video-game-history-gallery/
• http://www.ugo.com/games/paging-uwe-boll-video-game-characters-who-need-their-own-movies
• http://www.ugo.com/games/swimsuit-samus
• http://www.ugo.com/games/video-game-hotties

--Niemti (talk) 09:02, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

So, how do you like the brand new Reception section?

--Niemti (talk) 18:10, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and these links above are already used. --Niemti (talk) 18:11, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I think some copy edit might be needed (grammar, flow). --Niemti (talk) 18:19, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Also are these huge enormous quotes in the references really necessary? --Niemti (talk) 18:23, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I guess not. --Niemti (talk) 07:57, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Sex Appeal

Can the sex appeal paragraph be moved closer to the bottom? --Dswiggy (talk) 03:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I would like to argue for its complete removal, or editing down to a single sentence which is incorporated into another paragraph. Who cares how often some publication rated her "Hottest Babe in Gaming"? Her appearance of being attractive was kind of basic character design for female characters at the time of her creation, and further emphasis on her looks are either unintentional by the devs or (in some cases) something they worked against. But most of all, it's a MASSIVE chunk of text that does nothing to explain anything worthwhile about the character or anything really solid about her reception - it's just a wad of references to creepy articles by people crowing that she's super hot. It grants nothing to the article or the explanation of the character as a whole. MakinBaconPancakes (talk) 21:05, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I know that her first name is pronounced /sæ'məs/ or at least that is what I felt I heard from the Super Smash Brothers Brawl character select screen. I read on the Yahoo Answers link that her last name was pronounced in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. Does anyone know a what part of that game says her last name?--Ephert (talk) 22:25, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Going by the Japanese katakana spelling, the pronunciation should be 'Samus', similar to the pronunciation in Spanish or Italian. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:43, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

@Wakuran: And what does that mean in IPA? Glades12 (talk) 12:46, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Samus a Robot?

I heard Samus was a robot, are you guys sure this is correct? I mean robots can't really have genders. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.211.144.113 (talk) 02:39, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

To my knowledge, she is a woman in a suit. But compare gynoid. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 10:38, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Categorization?

There seems to be some . . . unusual, or at least unverified categorization in the article. It's been a long time since I've played all of the Metroid games, but erotic dancer, bisexual, prostitute, and arguably cyborg don't fit. She's been genetically modified and wears a powered-armor suit, but she doesn't seem to be cybernetically enhanced. At the very least, I'm not seeing any in-line reference in the article to these classifications. Supersonic Dude (talk) 18:51, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Sounds like for a few of those, someone decided to be super creepy and misogynistic. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 03:31, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Cyborg was probably added in good faith. The others are just bizarre. Tezero (talk) 23:38, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

This and the previous entry were probably resulting from people 'misreading' the status screens and how the upgrades seem to point at her muscles, the accidental implication being that she's installing that hardware in herself. You see those sorts of cutaways in cyberpunk mostly (ala syndicate), so perhaps whomever put the Metroid status screens together was unaware of the gynoid/cyborg implications. IIRC all her 'superhuman ability' relates to genetic modification. So in-game those are actually pointing at her suit. On that other note, there's nothing misogynistic about women in odd professions. In fact I would be willing to bet it's someone who performed attempting to 'claim' the character (as that current person below is doing for trans). The 'bisexual' bit kind of tips it off. It's a very Otherkin-y thing to do the kids are into these days. If they can't find a fictional character to 'relate' to, they say a famous one is actually one of them. (See also: Steven Universe fandom and the "Lars is a Trans-man" headcanon.) Ihadurca Il Imella (talk) 04:50, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

She and Solid Snake have romantic feelings for one another in Smash Ultimate.

Image

The Zero Suit image, while one of the more criticized examples of Samus, is an awkward pose. Speaking of Zero Suit, it raises a question of whether we should split Zero Suit Samus out of this article. I have seen some design discussion specifically about ZSS, and ZSS' involvement in this article introduces very diametrically opposed reception. While armoured Samus receives mostly positive reception, Zero Suit Samus receives generally negative reception (or positive reception about her sexuality). Thoughts on splitting if the justification can be met? - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 01:25, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It's the same character in the same series, so there is no need at all to split them. JDDJS (talk) 16:02, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Well that's not entirely true, to be quite honest. After all, Clark Kent exists. This is clearly not to the same level as Clark Kent versus Superman, but at the very least it discredits the idea of the reason to split being that they are the same entity. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 03:30, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Good point, but as you said it's nearly the same level as Clark Kent. The article is at a decent length right now. While I wouldn't want to classify it as too short, I'd sooner classify as that instead of too long. So there is currently no need for a split right now. If the article continues to expand, a split might become justified, but as it is right now, there is simply not enough content to justify a split. JDDJS (talk) 05:59, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Discussion on whether Samus is transgender

I tried adding the proper info on Samus being a transwoman, but apparently some reactionaries probably found out and now are not only vandalizing the article, but creating an edit war. Please revert the vandalism caused by them and then lock the article. Thank you!2602:304:CFE0:FA09:E036:C835:6DE5:C (talk) 01:22, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

"reactionaries" — are you serious? The only article that came out about this gives political reasons as the primary reasoning behind this, the first paragraph is "there’s been a lot of talk lately about the lack of women protagonists in videogames. But our problems with diversity don’t stop there. As one article recently noted, shockingly, there have only been 14 playable black women in videogame history. Gamers who aren’t cisgender white men often find themselves lacking characters they can rally behind." Are you seriously considering this a legitimate source without biases? The main reasoning for writing this article is to stick it to a strawman of a industry entirely dominated by "cisgender white men." TussilagoFanfara (talk) 11:54, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Samus as a transwoman? Where did you get that from? GamerPro64 01:23, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

There were no sources on the page about it either. Shouldn't that be a priority? --Aldude999 (talk) 01:26, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes. Unless you have a source, a reliable source, I would consider these edits vandalism and unproductive. GamerPro64 01:27, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

http://www.themarysue.com/metroids-samus-aran-transgender-woman/ It should work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:304:CFE0:FA09:E036:C835:6DE5:C (talk) 01:29, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Reads like poorly researched fanfiction, is a blog post (contributors) on a non-reputable biased source, and is directly counter to official sources. Samus is not a transwoman, no matter what some demagogue's fanfiction says. Also, "Transmisogynist" is not a real word. KiTA (talk) 01:43, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Transmisogynist is, in fact, a word: see this Wiktionary entry. It derives from a relatively newly-coined but well established term, Transmisogyny. (This doesn't in any way contradict your primary assertion, of course.) 208.85.32.249 (talk) 02:22, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Thank you for providing a source but The Mary Sue is considered a situation source in the Video Game projects. And I'm not really seeing any evidence of Samus being trans. Unless an actual member of Nintendo confirms this we shouldn't use this source or say she is trans. GamerPro64 01:35, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

A newly written article is the furthest from a reliable source. Until this is verified by the original creator it should not be considered reliable. Evanx11 (talk) 01:33, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

The page has no references from anyone it quotes, no official word, no videos, or written statements. Just curious if there's anything like that out there? It just doesn't seem sufficient to me is all. --Aldude999 (talk) 01:35, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

It will never have any official word. The developers haven't said anything conclusive, and the MarySue article is pure speculation based on a conclusion that had little evidence and only biased thinking. Until the devs give a definitive answer to the question, it should be assumed that Samus is female.

You reactionary MRA gamergators have nothing reliable to disprove the article. The Mary Sue falls under Wiki's list of sourceable websites. If Brianna Wu states that Samus is a transwoman, which she has WITH evidence, then that's what the article will include. The only way I'll stop is if the creator himself will step up and say that no she isn't. Until then, your reactionary dogpiling won't help you this time.2602:304:CFE0:FA09:E036:C835:6DE5:C (talk) 01:39, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

(Redacted)

Your vandalism has been reverted and the article is locked. Have a nice day. 69.115.224.183 (talk) 01:41, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Your lack of faith in other editors and assuming they are all "reactionary MRA gamergators" will get you nowhere but assumptions from everyone else that you are either here to troll or here to push an agenda and not collaborate. That source is considered unreliable for video game articles, from an author who is not a full time writer at the publication. I don't think the 'evidence' of the article is sufficient but that doesn't affect whether or not WP considers it reliable to use. One article from a non-reliable source about one of the most recognized female video game characters being trans is not something that is accepted as fact and requires countersourcing from the creator to prevent its inclusion. Even if this argument was made from a reliable source, unless that source directly quoted the creators saying "yes this was always the case", then it would just be a small blurb somewhere in the article saying "x speculated that Samus is trans", not inserting it all over the article as fact. Weedwacker (talk) 01:54, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Go to hell. You won't be laughing after I contact the sysops to revert your vandalism. Have a nice day, you transmisogynist fuck. 2602:304:CFE0:FA09:E036:C835:6DE5:C (talk) 01:43, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Last I checked, it is not up to anyone to disprove something exists, it lies solely on the person trying to prove they are right. I can't say I am dog on the internet, and you have to prove why I'm not. It just doesn't work that way. There was no evidence provided in the article, there was no sources, I'm just trying to figure out if there is anything else out there about this. It would really help your case. Also why are you being so hostile here? There's no reason for that. --Aldude999 (talk) 01:45, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Everyone. Please. Remain calm. This is just standard work here. Stop making this a GamerGate/SJW/MRA whatever. There is no real evidence Samus is trans. End of story. GamerPro64 01:46, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I would put forth the request that this come from an OFFICIAL source, not some blog or -- and this is important -- a reputable source such as the Guardian sorucing this article. Given the author of this fanfiction's history, "Ouroboros sourcing" (a non-credible source being cited by a credible source which is then used to take the non-credible source as fact) is a real danger. Nor should this be added as a "fan theory" as this has never been brought up in serious conversation before this extremely biased and frankly moon-logic based article. KiTA (talk) 01:50, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Even a Guardian article wouldn't be valid. This is obviously agenda pushing - and unless an official piece of the fiction says this, it isn't valid. The Mary Sue article is little more than well-publicized "head canon", to use the fan fiction vernacular. Primal Chaos (talk) 16:48, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

To make things more clear: Stop trying to change a page that tries to provide information on the most objective way possible, just so it can pander to your "empowering" ideals. Step out of the echo-chamber, conflicts is not pleasant but it enriches the mind. 186.61.80.152 (talk) 01:54, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Here's the thing, all this transgender talk was started because in an old magazine interview the graphic designer of Samus said a line that translates to "Samus isn't a woman, she's a new-half". This word is sometimes used in Japan to represent transgender people, but if we think about the country context, there is a huge transphobia going on there, there was even more 20 years ago, so it doesn't quite make sense for a developer to give "bad reputation" (not for us of course since we accept trans people, but there) to a character of a new developed game. So, what did he really mean? It is well known by everyone that played the series that she isn't completely human, she was given Chozo DNA in her training when she was young, so it makes more sense for the context of the magazine and the country that the designer was making a joke, refering to her dual state as being not a woman, but both a woman and a Chozo.

I think we should remove the transgender section of the article and ask the developers of the game what's their official answer on this issue— Preceding unsigned comment added by Comfybro2 (talk • contribs) 01:56, 2 September 2015‎

Newhalf also carries racial overtones, referring to people of mixed Japanese and non-Japanese descent. I imagine the statement was probably referring to that aspect of Samus' character rather than any comment on her gender. Somasq (talk) 02:00, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Are you sure that you aren't confusing it with ハーフ (hāfu)? TussilagoFanfara (talk) 11:43, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I've never heard newhalf used in such a way before; I'm not saying that it can't be the case, but I'd like a citation on that. While the 'half' of newhalf is derived from the same English word as a term for half-Japanese people, that doesn't mean that newhalf has the same ethnic connotations. 208.85.32.249 (talk) 02:06, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Just popping in to give my two cents. Pushing the idea that Samus has to be trans is misogynistic as it is perpetuating the false stereotype that women are weak, and thus any strong female is considered "manly." Please stop trying to push this problematic viewpoint and accept that female characters can be strong by their own merits, unless there is actually a serious and legitimate first-party source from Nintendo and/or the creators. 2602:306:834C:8450:193B:E5C1:6F4A:8D27 (talk) 01:57, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to echo GamePro's statements here: the matter is done and resolved, and additional sourcing is being asked for before any such material suggesting Samus is trans is added. Frankly I've made my thoughts clear on the Mary Sue article elsewhere, and I think this subject has come to an end for the time being.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 02:00, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

The Mary Sue is considered a reliable source for their original content, which this is. However, it's an WP:UNDUE position at this point, something that we really shouldn't include unless or until several sources repeat the same claim. Woodroar (talk) 02:02, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Lets not let this fall into the same trap the GamerGate Controversy article fell into. We need authentic, official sources for this, and not some other blogs repeating this fanfiction theory -- because otherwise in a week we'll just see several other sites using the blog post in question as a source and we'll be right back to square one. Also, does it count as "original content" when 1) it's a blog post (it's in their "contributors" section) 2) it's a unfounded theory on some other designer's character? We're not talking about TMS leading a discussion about an original character TMS created. KiTA (talk) 02:11, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

While TMS isn't really a reliable source, I agree that a real one that says she is/isn't would've made this event easier. GamerPro64 02:05, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

The Official Metroid Managa, which is cited in the Samus Aran page, follows her from birth to becoming a bounty hunter in the games. The manga is full of pictures of her as a young girl and even her father referring to her as a girl.--82.2.231.33 (talk) 14:48, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I would say, even more so than just the manga- the endings in Metroid Fusion also depict Samus, from her early childhood all the way up through her adulthood, and those depictions are clearly of a young girl. FluffyPug (talk) 17:54, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

(Redacted)

That's a pretty strong accusation and I'd think we'd all rather refrain from personal attacks. That really has no place or bearing here. Maybe for a noticeboard, but frankly I'm not seeing enough evidence to bother with that, let alone how would anyone know that ip were her's to begin with?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 02:53, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

(Redacted)

This has gone on long enough. Information concerning a fictional character's biography is obtained through the character's official description by its creator/author/owner. A blogger's headcanon does not constitute acceptable information concerning the character, regardless of the reliability of the source in question. The article has thankfully been semi-protected and further attempts to modify the article in such ways should be considered vandalism, and thus be grounds for a block. Akesgeroth (talk) 03:53, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, on this regard and hopefully as a bit of closing, the original cited guide Q&A has turned up, and the context was "Will Metroid come to the PS2? Answer: That's as likely as Samus being a newhalf!" So I think we can officially put this one to rest.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 04:11, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I've redacted all of the inappropriate speculation about the alleged actions of a living person. Editors are reminded that such speculation is inappropriate on Wikipedia. Gamaliel (talk) 12:23, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

A couple of proudly biased bloggers and activists don't get to override the intent of the author and the entirety of the established fiction, nor are they notable enough in either the fan or critical community to even be referenced. The rush to shove this into Wikipedia is an attempt to grant this ridiculousness legitimacy. This is obvious trolling meant to provoke Metroid fans as well as promote themselves in a tabloid fashion, and has no place in an encyclopedia. This is the equivalent of some random blogger on Fox News claiming that Obama might be gay on dubious evidence and those sets of single-issue editors rushing to add it to his article. Mark me as opposed to any further changes to even reference this. Primal Chaos (talk) 19:43, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 September 2015

Simple: Just block anyone from trying to add anything that claims that samus is a transgender. Seriously, the game (and the manual) only refer to samus as a male due to a translation problem. The Japanese version of the game refer to samus using a gender neutral pronoun, and since there isn't a gender neutral pronoun in english (and using "it" would make even less sense), nintendo decided to keep the minor translation problem and refer to samus as a man to avoid ruining the big surprise.

Now some "activists" (see some of Brianna Wu's posts on twitter about the matter) think that samus is a transgender (ignoring the fact that all the later titles refer to samus as a woman) due to this minor problem. Its just like that one episode of king of the hill where bobby joins some christian rock group, and hank says something like "don't you realize you are not making christianity better, you are only making rock and roll worse?". Just replace christianity with something like "acceptance of gays and transgenders" and rock and roll with "gaming".

Look, i just want to protect the integrity of the article. If you let people change the article. If you folks let people change the article to say that samus is a transgender, it will attract the people who disagree with them, and then a bunch of trolls and people who just want to cause chaos for fun into the middle of this.

I hope you guys do the right decision.

Thank you guys for your time. Cheesus Grist (talk) 03:21, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't think we're going to straight up block people because they edited the page to say its trans. Once, that's expected to be vandalism and maybe they won't do it again. If they do it more than once, then the option to block, temporary or permanently, is on the table. We're already debunked this meme that Samus is trans so if this persists then some admins are going to have a field day. GamerPro64 03:29, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

This isn't how you use a requested edit request. Weedwacker (talk) 03:31, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

 Denied Not an edit request. ~ Rob^Talk 03:57, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Trans Woman are women Cheesus stop being a Transphobic Terf please.81.156.101.133 (talk) 09:47, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Samus being Trans officially denied by Sakamoto Yoshio

From a 2004 FAQ with the director of Metroid, Super Metroid, Metroid Fusion, and most other Metroid games:

http://metroid.jp/metroid_version2/development/faq3.html

Quoting Question 21: "Question : Any chance Metroid Prime will ever come to PS2? Answer: It's about as likely as 'Samus is really newhalf (transgender / hermaphrodite / etc).' Please enjoy it on the Gamecube!"

He specifically uses the term NYU-HA-FU, NewHalf, the exact same term that the original blog cites. There we have it, an official source, the director of the original Metroid using that theory as a joke to mean 'Literally Impossible.' Can we put this one to rest? KiTA (talk) 04:19, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Another source from an IGN interview with Sakamoto Yoshio from 2010:

http://m.ign.com/articles/2010/09/07/the-origins-of-metroid

The interviewer said Yoshio Sakamoto surprised players all across the world when he revealed that "Samus is actually a woman" at the end of the first Metroid in 1986, and proceeded to ask him was Samus' gender fixed from the beginning or was it more of a spontaneous idea.

Yoshio Sakamoto confirmed that the idea was brought up when the development was almost done, and is thankful to the person who brought up this idea.

This is the most update information we can get from the game producer/ writer. (talk) 08:03, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

@JeannoRPG: Um... trans women are female, so I think you should rephrase that statement. Ogress _smash! 08:21, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

@Ogress: Thank you for pointing out! I have rephrased it, sorry for the confusion. JeannoRPG (talk) 09:03, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Nintendo has made it clear that Samus is a woman: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Samusgender.png

Exhentai (talk) 10:27, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

@Exhentai: Trans women are female, so I think you should rephrase that statement. Ogress _smash! 18:32, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Contextually, it is an obvious reference to the biological possession of two X chromosomes. Language policing is not contributing to a discussion. - Primal Chaos (talk) 19:46, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

It's not language policing, because trans women are women. "Samus Aran isn't trans" =/= "Samus Aran is female, not trans". Ogress _smash! 19:53, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Ignoring obvious context of a statement to criticize words chosen instead of message conveyed is an textbook example of language policing - "any person or group crusading for a particular usage or omission within a language" - and is not contributing to a conversation but rather an attempt to derail it down a linguistic rabbit hole. My statement stands. I would ask you stop ignoring context in order to lecture editors speaking in good faith, especially since you are doing so repetitively. - Primal Chaos (talk) 20:01, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Japanese Super Metroid guide

themarysue.com In 1994, the writers of the official Japanese Super Metroid strategy guide asked Metroid’s developers if they could share any secrets about the intergalactic bounty hunter. Hirofumi Matsuoka, who helped work on the original design for Samus Aran, claimed that she “wasn’t a woman,” but instead, “ニューハーフ,” Ilkn0de (talk) 09:40, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

You're a few hours too late, that blog post (not a reliable source) already hit, was used as justification to vandalize the article, was reverted and debated. As shown above, it is not accurate -- the term had not entered common lexicon in Japan by 1994, having only been coined in 1982. In addition, Matsuoka was only one of a large group of people who designed Samus, he was not the only or primary designer. The director of the original game and most of the series specifically used "Samus is a Newhalf" as an example as something that would never happen. KiTA (talk) 10:29, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

KiTAI think you need to review what "vandalism" is according to Wikipedia, because using a reliable source (which, if you check, the Mary Sue is) to edit a page to indicate Samus Aran was a trans woman is not vandalism. The issue was a lack of consensus and discussion leading to an edit war. Ogress _smash! 19:18, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I think seeing the IP address user call us all names and then promise to call the Sysops in to punish us proved it was not editing in good faith. You can call it what you want, I personally call editing in bad faith vandalism. In addition, The Mary Sue may be a reliable source on some things, but it is not considered a reliable source by default on gaming topics.

More importantly, the source is not from The Mary Sue proper, but from their contributors section -- i.e., this is a blog post that TMS just happened to host and not a news post that TMS wrote. It is not a reliable source -- which is a moot point, because we have already found an official source that directly denies this particular fan theory. Wikipedia is not the place for someone's headcanon and fanfiction. KiTA (talk) 19:33, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Let us also review some of the other answers from this strategy guide that is being used as a source. The question was put to the dev team "What is a secret about Samus that only you know." Quite a few people did not answer. The answers they provided were:

• "KANO Makoto - Secret of Samus that only I know: You can defeat SR388's Metroid Queen by entering her mouth."
• "SAKAMOTO Yoshio - Secret of Samus that only I know: I know where Samus's beauty mark is."
• "MATSUOKA Hirofumi - Secret of Samus that only I know: Samus isn't a woman. As a matter of fact, she's actually a shemale."
• "YAMAMOTO Kenji - Secret of Samus that only I know: Spore Spawn's voice is me."
• "KIMURA Hiroyuki - Secret of Samus that only I know: 106-60-90 [Samus's Measurements]"
• "NAKAJIMA Kenji - Secret of Samus that only I know: There are a good many frames in the animations of Samus."
• "KUBOTA Isamu - Secret of Samus that only I know: Samus's designer is Mr. Tomomi [YAMANE]. It is said that Samus is in her late 20s."

Every single one of these answers are jokes. The only one that might not be an obvious joke is Kubota Isamu's answer, which states that Samus' character design was by Yamane Tomomi (who refused to answer about the secret). Indeed, the same source (which is discussing Super Metroid, aka Metroid 3) claims that Yamane Tomoyoshi (Tomomi) is Samus's character designer for the game, not Matsuoka Hirofumi, who is credited for background art. If we go back to the original NES game as well as the SNES game's credits, Hiroji Kiyotake is credited as being the original designer of Samus. In the same original NES credits, Hirofumi is credited as Game Design, not Character Design. KiTA (talk) 19:53, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

You are literally describing a content dispute, not vandalism. This kind of thing comes up constantly in regards to reliable sourcing. Ogress _smash! 19:56, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I do not think being called a "reactionary MRA gamergators" or a "transmisogynist (still not a real word!) fuck" and being told to "go to hell" counts as a mere content dispute, but hey, it's a moot point -- this fanfiction by Brianna Wu and Ellen McGrody has been been proven to have been based on an off the cuff joke by a background artist on Super Metroid that the director of most of the Metroid series used as a joke to mean "impossible." KiTA (talk) 20:07, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

For what it's worth, you can defeat the Queen Metroid in Metroid II by entering her mouth and laying bombs in her stomach. They're not all jokes (the measurements also make sense if you realise they're in metric). Sceptre ^(talk) 14:38, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I think this discussion would have been more productive if some editors (all of whom, to no-one's surprise, have an editing history all over GamerGate, and equally unsurprisingly, all on one side) could refrain from using words like "vandalism", "fanfiction", or "headcanon" to refer to an idea supported by a direct quote from a developer. This seems to me like a series of entirely unnecessary attacks on the editor(s) attempting to insert this material and on the author of the Mary Sue piece (who is, of course, a favourite bogeyman for a certain group...)

... which is not to say that that quote is not apparently a tasteless joke - but that observation alone is quite sufficient to deal with the notion that it should go into the article, and unlike the rest, is actually about the content. Pinkbeast (talk) 01:04, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Need it be reminded that TMS is a Situational source for a reason. There is nothing supporting that Samus is trans beyond what was written in that article. And if it is a tasteless joke, how would adding it into the article improve the page? GamerPro64 01:14, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Er, there's the original developer quote. Which is a tasteless joke, but if you don't realise it is, does support exactly that.

I think you may have missed the fact that I agree with you about the content. I just feel the tone taken by some editors has been inappropriate, especially where it seems more focussed on attacking the author of the Mary Sue article than on discussing the article content. Pinkbeast (talk) 01:35, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Ah. Apologizes for missing the agreement. GamerPro64 01:39, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

For those of you less familiar with game development terminology, it is not a developer quote, or a game designer quote. The quote is from a graphic designer who worked on background art for the game primarily. They were not a writer, game designer or anyone who would have creative control of the character background. This is essentially the same as a set decorator telling you a movie character was trans - they aren't even notionally in control of the character. Hence, why even if the source quote was earnest (it's not), it would still not be worthy of inclusion. - Primal Chaos (talk) 03:12, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Good point. I had missed that. It is rather consistent with the idea that a naive good-faith editor might not understand why it should not be taken seriously, no? Pinkbeast (talk) 03:46, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I find your faith in humanity and innocence inspiring, but considering Mr. IPv6 who started this mess whipped out calling us all MRA reactionaries stopping the glorious future from arising at the behest of a similar set of ideologues making a glorified blogpost, I consider this blatant POV pushing with an agenda. Either way, we can agree that it is an invalid addition. - Primal Chaos (talk) 04:46, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

"the behest of a similar set of ideologues making a glorified blogpost" is, of course, exactly the sort of attack on the authors of the article I am trying to discourage. Pinkbeast (talk) 05:52, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

It's not an "attack" to call poor research, lack of editorial vetting and admitted bias for what it is, especially in the context of what should or should not be in a encyclopedia article. In fact, those are probably the three most important criticisms you can make in this case. <zoidberg>Their blog is bad, and they should feel bad.</zoidberg> - Primal Chaos (talk) 06:15, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

No. The only really important criticism is that once we go back to the original source for the claim it is obviously wrong. Given the near-universal consensus here that that is the case, it matters not a bit if the Mary Sue article was the result of years of painstaking but misdirected research, or dictated by a figment of a fever dream. Pinkbeast (talk) 10:14, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

If one were to do years of painstaking research, it would seem logical that one would stumble across the Nintendo-created Metroid Fusion endings, which chronicle Samus' entire lifespan from infant to adult... and which, in doing so, clearly depict throughout that lifespan a biological female. We are considering the games themselves a reliable source, are we not? FluffyPug (talk) 10:56, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I imagine so (although there is an utterly tedious argument up-page about just how clear that is which I do not propose to revisit), but who cares? If we agree it's wrong it matters not one jot how it got to be wrong. Pinkbeast (talk) 15:28, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I haven't edited Wikipedia in a long while, but I used to contribute to and create video game articles in 2007/8. I Logged in to commend Pinkbeast on their level-headed and balanced assessment of the situation and on urging people to assume good faith to keep discussion civil. As I see it, there are two major issues with inclusion of The Mary Sue contributor article (or any sources it cites) as a citation for Samus Aran being a transgender woman:

1) Authority of the article's source for the claim

As has been pointed out, Matsuoka Hirofumi was a background art designer for Metroid. He was not the character designer, writer, founder, or lead designer on the project. The original, primary source links to the interviews may be considered reliable even if The Mary Sue is not, but he is not an appropriate authority on the matter. Perhaps a former programmer from Bungie will say in an interview with IGN that Master Chief wears pink panties underneath his armour. But this does not mean it should be added to the article on Master Chief. He was also answering a question on what is a "secret of Samus that only [you] know", which itself indicates that this is the idiosyncratic opinion of an individual, not agreed-upon characterisation detailed in the official design doc.

This is especially a concern when Sakamoto Yoshio, co-creator of the Metroid franchise and director of the game, actually refuted this claim in the other source cited by the very same The Mary Sue article. He denied that Samus Aran was a "new-half" - the same terminology used by Matsuoka, which is alleged to mean "transgender woman". The tone that Matsuoka had in making his comment (i.e. the context that it was a joke) is very much secondary to this concern about his reliability as an authority on the matter.

2) Reliability of the article

This is the most critical. Putting aside the issue of The Mary Sue being considered a situational source by WikiProject Video Games, and putting aside questions of the bias/agenda/professionalism of the authors, we have a very simple problem involving the policy of Verifiability: exceptional claims require exceptional sources. This claim that Samus Aran is transgender contains 3/4 of the red flags listed on the policy page, namely:

- "surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources"

- "challenged claims that are supported purely by primary [...] sources"

- "claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, or that would significantly alter mainstream assumptions"

It says this should make us extra cautious, and we should require multiple high-quality sources. We do not have this.

In summary, the claim that Samus Aran is transgender (and The Mary Sue article making that claim) should not be included in the article at this time. The reason is that the original source for the claim does not have the authority to speak on the matter; he was contradicted by someone who does have the authority to speak on the matter; and because this is a classic example of standard Wikipedia policy on Verifiability, wherein we require multiple sources for exceptional/surprising claims. I think we should stick to these objections and not entertain any speculation about the intent of editors or TMS article writers and all other irrelevant details. clicketyclick 16:38, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Erik Kain from Forbes has now written a post on the story. I believe the controversy over Samus's gender should at the very least be mentioned in the reception section. —Flax5 13:48, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

That's more an article on SJW culture, not on this specific incident as a controversy. He uses the recent article as an example, not because it's particularly noteworthy. Unless this gains widespread coverage or persists longer than a few weeks, it should not be included here. ~ Rob^Talk 14:01, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Rob13. Forbes is also listed as a situational source: "Articles written by Forbes contributors do not have the same editorial oversight and may not be reliable. Editors are encouraged to find alternatives to contributor pieces." What you linked is a contributor blog piece, so we should try to avoid including it. And, as Rob13 mentioned, it's more about the context surrounding the article rather than the merit of the claim about Samus that the article made. We might consider including it in an article about Gamergate, but it doesn't belong here. I also agree that there's a strong possibility this whole controversy will blow over shortly, like many others. I don't think we should add to "Cultural Impact" sections whenever a contributor from the blogosphere goes on a tangent about "SJWs", Gamergate, and his personal collection of "erotic artwork". clicketyclick 17:22, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

"SJW culture" is a talking point of Gamer Gate and MRAs, can we please not lump all social justice movements they don't like under that label? What's next, are we going to just flat out start calling them "skeleton warriors"? There is no unified "SJW"; it's just "people GG/MRAs don't like". Ogress _smash! 17:27, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

That sounds like Tone Policing to me, Ogress. SJW is a common internet term used to refer to trolls, demagogues, or unhinged activists who get involved in these sort of movements and take it too far, not to any specific social justice movement. Like say, using an off color joke to justify misgendering a beloved female gaming icon and then having a complete meltdown over it when it is proven that the entire fan theory is based on incorrect information and assumptions. KiTA (talk) 19:51, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

"SJW" is admittedly an idiotic term, but it's one Erik Kain uses in the blog. I don't think Rob meant anything by it other than to neutrally refer to what the blog was talking about. But yeah, that's why I always put it in scare quotes. clicketyclick 18:07, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I'm using the term "SJW culture" to refer to incredibly tiny subsets of overall social justice movements that have radicalized to the point of becoming hateful. I would not consider any person trying to have a dialogue or take action on social justice issues in good faith to be part of "SJW culture". To be clear, that definitely describes the overwhelming majority of those that are part of social justice movements. It's also true that there is a minuscule subset that have been radicalized in dramatic ways, and that's worth talking about and having a term for. Sorry if I offended anyone; I did not intend to lump those who are working toward important social justice goals with those who have more radical and disturbing views. I have not offered my view on whether the article in question gets the definition of "SJW" right, nor do I intend to. ~ Rob^Talk 18:35, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

If you separate out one particular group with a new term, you are by definition not 'lumping in' all movements with them. I mean, some might mean it this way, but I doubt anyone is attempting to lump the Southern Poverty Law Center in with unhinged Twitter activists deliberately trolling and saying they want to 'take away the spaces' of white males she disapproves of. If anything, the term is doing you a favor. Objecting to us describing this behavior as SJW instead of such 'social justice' is akin to moderate Muslims objecting to us describing the Muslim Brotherhood as 'radical Muslims'. Kain is distinctly separating the wheat from the chafe in his article using the term. - Primal Chaos (talk) 00:29, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

You sound like Humpty-Dumpty when you say that; "Words mean what I say they mean!" Ogress _smash! 19:00, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

"SJW" is an insulting/dismissive term and really has no place here. I might consider a minuscule subset of game developers to be murder-simulator creators, but I think some people might get miffed if I started using that term on talk pages. There already exists a term to describe radicalised social justice activists: radicals. And the phrase that activist used that you cited is a joking reference to accusations that they must hate/want to kill all <insert the respective privileged group here> if they truly believe that another group is being oppressed. So, probably not as radical as you might think. Certainly none are anywhere near as radical as America's current crop of Republican presidential candidates. But I digress... clicketyclick 20:03, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I, and other people who use it as shorthand to refer to "Radical, possibly unhinged/trolling, authoritarian progressive identity politics activists," do not agree with your assessment as it being an insulting/dismissive term, just like how I disagree with Ogress using MRA (the male version of a Feminist) or GamerGate as a pejorative. However, rather than argue about the minutiae of word choices on a talk page, lets return to the original topic. Flax5 suggested that the discussion of this so called scandal on other sites suggests it may belong on this page. I disagree, under the following criteria:

• The nature of the topic will no doubt result in it being referenced in many places, especially these radical gender activist blogs as well as gaming hobby blogs, however they are not generally speaking about the supposed veracity of the claim, but rather (in the case of the radical gender activists) about the supposed scandal and supposed bigotry of those rejecting the claim or (in the case of gaming websites) pointing out the existence of radical gender activists with such a "silly" theory.
• Similar fan theories and memes do not appear in other character articles -- for example, the fan theory / meme that Squall is Dead in Final Fantasy VIII does not appear on Squall Leonheart, nor does the fan theory that Sonic and Tails are homosexual lovers appear on Sonic The Hedgehog, nor should they. Regardless of the emotion involved, as an encyclopedia we cannot pander to every fan theory that graces the dregs of social media.
• Finally, we return to the original reason why there was so much backlash against this in the first place: The claim is easily disproven by an examination of the original sources as well as going counter to 25 years of the character's history and is directly discarded by official sources.

Samus is not a newhalf, and newhalf did not mean transgender in the timeframe of the original source. Outside of a few fans and a few people with an agenda to push no one takes this claim at all seriously and we should not treat it with any more gravitas than it actually has -- that is, discussed on the talk page and rejected outright. KiTA (talk) 20:29, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

MRA and GGers self-identify as such. "SJW" is just a term invented by the former groups - who invented their own names, despite your claims that I'm using them as slurs - to characterise the people they don't like. There is a fundamental difference between these and you are deliberately obscuring it (while simultaneously inventing a straw man to pin it on). Ogress _smash! 20:44, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Untrue. There are activists on social media who use the term to refer to themselves, often on Twitter where the character limit pushes them to brevity, often with some variant such as "Social Justice Paladin." Regardless, context is important, and you clearly meant MRA and GGer above as a pejorative above, as if someone involved in the GamerGate consumer movement or a Men's Rights Activist's opinions are somehow less valid. Finally, while I may use SJW to summarize a particular form of troll on the Internet, let us not forget that this discussion started with someone above calling anyone who disagreed with some controversial edits as "transmysognistic fucks" (still not a real word -- I believe the proper phrase would be "misogynistic transphobic fucks," which would be a really good name for a German heavy metal band) -- it's hard to deny the existence of SJWs when we have a shining example of one up above. KiTA (talk) 20:52, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Quick edit: Just caught myself, I was conflating some discussion above. It was the original SJW troll who used MRA / GamerGate as a pejorative, and a different editor who insinuated being Pro GamerGate somehow discredited edits here. Your focus appears to be tone policing based on the common vernacular of "Social Justice Warrior" meaning a form of troll being invalid because certain groups you appear to disagree with, which I equally reject. KiTA (talk) 21:10, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

You clearly don't understand the difference between "embracing an insult" and "coordinated activity". There are specific group movements associated with MRAs and GG: websites that defined that term, organise actions under that title, even mascots. SJW is a catch-all term for people the former groups are targeting.

Also, your refusal to acknowledge the word "transmisogyny" is ridiculous as it is used in books and papers and also defines a useful kind of discrimination that exists. You even admit it exists, but insist we must use a different, long-winded phrase to refer to it.

Finally, you are stating someone who attacked you as a "SJW", which is kind of the point I was making about an external definition of the term. Ogress _smash! 21:01, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, much like how you insist instead of using Social Justice Warrior to summarize a form of troll who attaches themselves to progressive causes and uses identity politics as a weapon to harass people that I use the long winded term "Radical, possibly unhinged/trolling, authoritarian progressive identity politics activist." No. They're Social Justice Warriors, the term has entered the common vernacular. In addition, I must ask -- what in the world does GamerGate, MRAs, or even SJWs have to do with the topic at hand? KiTA (talk) 21:10, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I can't believe this is still going on. For Gods sake talk about this on your own respected talk pages. Not in the one for Samus. This conversation has nothing to do with the character at this point. GamerPro64 21:16, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Thank you. KiTA (talk) 21:18, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

(Edit conflict!) If you two have a personal disagreement, I think it should be moved to your personal talk pages. KiTA, just because some people embrace a term that was invented by an opposing group as an insult doesn't mean it's appropriate to call them that term here on wikipedia. It's different if the group being insulted is organised and all its members adopt the insult as their descriptor, like the French Impressionists did. But that is not the case here. Common decency dictates that if a group does not wish you to use a certain label for them because they feel it is insulting, then you don't. And if you're using it as a short form for assuming bad faith, that also doesn't belong because it causes personal bickering on talk pages. Let's also not get into arguments over inferred tone when an editor uses accepted names that groups dubbed themselves.

Back to the issue of the article, I personally would tend to agree with you (KiTA) that the writer shown in your imgur link seems to be pushing an agenda and that the original anon editor who insulted people here was way out of line. But in the latter case, I am trying to assume the best by thinking that they were just emotionally charged from this controversial subject and took things personally, and in the former case, it's irrelevant to the question of whether the information should be included or not in this article. As long as the information is correct and the source verifiable, it doesn't matter if the author has an agenda. Unfortunately, the information is not correct, nor is the source verifiable - I think all of us here agree on that. clicketyclick 21:36, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Actually, the current topic is Flax5's suggestion -- if reference to the "controversy" should be mentioned in the article. As stated above, I disagree as most of the discourse I have seen so far is controversy about the controversy, if that makes any sense; in addition there does not seem to be a "controversy" about Samus Aran's biological gender, as shown above. KiTA (talk) 22:26, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Just thought i should point this out to avoid future controversy, Matsuoka's statement of Samus supposedly not being female is most likely more of a joke on how she was genetically modified then her being a transsexual, as he used the term newhalf. Whoever translated the interview probably didnt realize this and ended up just translating it literally. Eata3e (talk) 00:11, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Another possibility is that the intended joke in referring to Samus as a 'newhalf' was a tongue-in-cheek reference to the character changing sex from male to female late in Metroid's development; especially if this information was already delivered earlier in the strategy guide (I'm uncertain when this detail about Metroid's development was first mentioned publicly), I think this interpretation is more likely than the theory that the joke relates to Samus' non-human DNA, but obviously we'll never know for certain Matsuoka's intent without an explanation of the joke's meaning from Matsuoka (or perhaps another member of the development team). 208.85.32.249 (talk) 01:24, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

"Samus being trans" being traced back to an article on TheMarySue.com does not a source make. Neither does a mistranslation... Spoopy skeleton44 (talk) 01:10, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Closing the 'Trans' discussion

We seem to have reached a point where no one thinks the 'Samus is trans' Mary Sue blog post is worthy of the article, or passes any of the tests, as ClicketyClack has rightfully pointed out; and none of the information comes from an appropriate source. At this point, this conversation is turning into a drama magnet. We should consider it closed unless someone brings something new to the table, and leave the article semi-protected for a while just to avoid any further anonymous IP edits causing drama. - Primal Chaos (talk) 01:58, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I feel like it's only fair to point out that it does seem like Matsuoka was in fact on the part of the team tasked with developing the characters - i.e. Samus - for the original Metroid game. (See the Development section on the Metroid page where it credits Matsuoka with such, and the citation used there to support it.) It was in subsequent Metroid games where he was credited as a background artist - people seem to have erroneously lumped these later credits with his original one. Not that I'm defending the claim by Brianna Wu et al.; I'm just pointing out that one fact. Abion47 (talk) 09:06, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Good catch - I just checked the credits and you're right that he's credited on character design. However, he doesn't seem to be the one who designed Samus according to the page you linked. Also, in the credits, it's listed like this (with this spacing):

CHARACTER DESIGNED BY
KIYOTAKE

NEW MATSUOKA
SHIKAMOTO

...which suggests he didn't have a primary/lead role - enemy design perhaps. He's still contradicted by the director/co-creator/fellow character designer though. But this is an important point, so thank you for making the correction. clicketyclick 14:49, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Character design usually refers to artwork and models in game development, not laying out the story, concept or plot. The use of the term 'character design' might be confusing, but inside the industry, character design means the actual art depicting the character generated under the direction of the creator or writers. Also known as character art, whereby the artist conveys information determined by the character creator through art. - Primal Chaos (talk) 03:23, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

We're talking about a game that was released in the late 80's. I doubt that role titles were as well defined back then as they are now. There's also the confusion coming from the formatting of the credits sequence in the game itself, with weird line breaks and unclear title crediting at all. With the "CHARACTER DESIGNED BY" example that ClicketyClack gave, for example, the line break could mean a separation of primary and secondary designers as was suggested. Or maybe it means that the people after the break were working on something else entirely. Or maybe the line break was an artifact of localization that they didn't deem important enough to fix properly. It's unlikely that any sort of sense can be made about the credits at all unless Nintendo has a page on their site somewhere that lists the credits in a more clear manner. Abion47 (talk) 08:20, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

The definition of 'character design' was already established in animation and film as not being a writing but an art position. The point still stands - the title does not indicate creative control over anything but the character's looks; and at the time of the writing, it was usually the "creator" title given to the person who came up with the actual plotline and gameplay. Given he has not had any further 'creative' capacity since then, it is same to assume that is sense it is given, and how it would have been understood then and now. This isn't particularly confusing to people working within the industry, and is a term of art within it. - Primal Chaos (talk) 19:11, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

She isn’t, the Metroid Manga confirms this.

Request to identify Samus Aran as Transhuman

Transhumanism (abbreviated as H+ or h+) is an international cultural and intellectual movement with an eventual goal of fundamentally transforming the human condition by developing and making widely available technologies to greatly enhance human intellectual, physical, and psychological capacities.

Samus Aran clearly exemplifies Transhumanism with "her" biologically integrated powersuit. "She" is most often seen in the powersuit and presents "herself" most often as a human-machine hybrid. Using her powersuit technology, Samus often executes feats of strengthstrength, speed, and agility beyond human capability.

It should be noted that Samus' powersuit is biologically integrated into "her" body and cannot simply be removed. For example, in Metroid Fusion, doctors cannot remove Samus' powersuit without harming Samus .

Beyond the powersuit, Samus exploits mecahnical and biological technology to further transform beyond the human condition. (From the Metroid E-manga) using advanced Chozo technology, Samus was infused with Chozo DNA, therefor transcending human biological makeup. Additionally, in Metroid Fusion, Samus is further infused with Metroid DNA to ward off an X-parasite infection. These genetic transformations are canonical.

By labeling Samus as a human, not only are we ignoring canonical evidence to the contrary -- we are in fact marginalizing Samus' unique identity and Chozo heritage. To ignore Samus' transhuman nature not only misrepresents the identity of Samus, but does a disservice to the transhuman community at large.

I feel this topic is improtant to explore and I would please ask everyone to refrain from vandalizing the wiki page with bigoted comments claiming Samus is nothing more than a human.

132.170.193.156 (talk) 15:58, 8 September 2015 (UTC)Hiramugrant

Do you have a reliable source saying she's a transhumanism? Or something along the like? GamerPro64 16:00, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

@GamerPro64 -- Excerpts from the intro to the Metroid Fusion game:

"Samus: It then came to light that the organic components of my Power Suit had become so integrated with my system that it could not be removed while I was unconscious." -- Samus identifies "her" human-machine duality.

"Samus: They proposed using a Metroid cell to make an anti-X vaccine. It seems that the Federation had managed to preserve a cell culture from the last infant Metroid from SR388. The serum was prepared and injected without delay." --Samus explains "her" biological modifications.

"Samus: As for me, one life ended... yet I survived, reborn as something different." -- here Samus (albiet somewhat ambiguously) idetifies as something other than "her" past human self.

For a primary source, please inspect an original Metroid Fusion game cartridge. 132.170.193.156 (talk) 16:23, 8 September 2015 (UTC)Hiramugrant

I have to question those claims. Samus couldn't take off the suit because of the X-Parasite. Once that was dealt with, she could take it off normally. It's an advanced suit locked to her DNA, not a literal, biological part of her. HER DNA has recived minimal modification to allow the use of suit. That's it. "Chozo heritige" is a joke, I hope...or are you taking offense over a non-existing slight against a fictional person in a fictional universe based on nothing but ones own fantasies?

Also, what transhuman community? Transhumans don't exist yet. 212.15.184.5 (talk) 09:35, 9 September 2015 (UTC) (Some Guy)

@ SomeGuy: I think "minimal DNA modification" is subjective -- but even so, minimal DNA modification is DNA modification nonetheless. Samus has been infused with both Chozo and Metroid DNA. "Her" DNA is now distinct from normal human DNA. "Her" power suit locks onto Samus by identifying "her" non-human DNA. Clearly, the distinction "human" does not fully represent Samus. In fact, one could argue that it is Samus' non-human DNA that allows Samus to be noteworthy.

Additionally, I don't think technological dependence is a pre-requisite of transhumanism (please refer to the definition in my first post). Samus may be able to remove the suit, but "she" still uses the suit to increase strength, speed, etc. "She" also often relies on the life-support systems of the suit for "her" survival. Samus even uses the suit to regain health and vitality. 132.170.193.156 (talk) 15:37, 9 September 2015 (UTC)Hiramugrant

User's only previous edit. I don't think we need take this one very seriously. Pinkbeast (talk) 16:13, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Gotcha. GamerPro64 16:25, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Just because this user has a... specific area of interest doesn't mean their idea is wrong. I'd argue that, in a slightly-wider-than-traditional sense of transhuman, Samus does qualify as an example of a transhuman character, at least in Metroid: Fusion. Samus was subject to gene therapies and forcibly cyberized (If this term is unclear, let me know.) within the first few minutes of Metroid: Fusion. Sources cited above by the OP bear that much out. One of the central ideas of transhumanism is the integration of humans with machines. The main antagonist is a duplicate of Samus made out of a viral alien biomass, while Samus, over the course of the game, becomes more integrated with her suit. It's hard to get less subtle with your biology vs. technology themes, which are another big idea in transhumanism. This idea definitely deserves a good look, not to be tossed out based on an ad-hom. 2601:603:4201:6319:A531:1A3B:89A5:8C4B (talk) 03:07, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Unless there's a reliable source on this, we're not adding any of this in. All that's been given is Wikipedia pages and transcripts. Primary sources don't really cut it for stuff like this. GamerPro64 03:10, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

The analysis is trivial. Samus clearly parallels the definition of transhumanism. Samus is canonically transhuman in the same way Samus is canonically blonde or canonically a strong, independent character. A trait can be clearly apparent without a detailed report examining the trait.

Also, since when are primary sources dismissed? Since when are transcripts dismissed? What would you have me do, write a blog post about this and reference the blog post? (sarcasm) 132.170.193.156 (talk) 14:40, 9 September 2015 (UTC)Hiramugrant

Unless stated in secondary and primary sources that she is transhuman, we should not add the information. There are times when other definitions can be used however this needs to be heavily sourced (From a Primary Creators of the games) outside of the Game Media(Samus Franchise). TheRealVordox (talk) 06:37, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm not so much saying that they have a "specific area of interest" as that this is a bad attempt at a joke. Pinkbeast (talk) 16:17, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

References

For Future Reference

Since new users and anonymous editors don't get it: unless something is canon (i.e., in source material or stated by creator), you can't claim Samus Aran is canonically trans, male, furry, Nazi, feminist, MRA, based on a real person, lesbian, straight, three monkeys in a suit, or whatever. For example:

Samus in canon has yellow hair. She is canonically blonde.

I hope this clears things up for you people. Why you obsess over a fictional character is beyond me. Why you even think your feelings equal, surpass, or substitute for canon is beyond me. Exhentai (talk) 12:05, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

There is really no need for this kind of incivility. Pinkbeast (talk) 16:17, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

As long as we also accept that you can't claim Samus is canonically cis as well Lathomas64 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:34, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

That is weird people were saying she was a Nazi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Castlevania Boy (talk • contribs) 22:30, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

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One of the earliest females.....not by a long shot

Leading (main) female characters in video games, 1980s, pre-NES Samus Aran: Leading (main) female characters in video games:

Magnavox Odyssey:

Female player (Simon Says, Odyssey, 1972, main character)

Apple ][:

Female player selection (Akalabeth: World of Doom, Origin, 1979, selectable)

Jenny (Jenny of the prairie, Addison Wesley, 1984, main character)

Clair (Cave Girl Clair, Addison Wesley, 1984, main character)

Lauren (Lauren of the 25th century, Addison Wesley, 1984, main character)

Chelsea (Chelsea of the south sea Islands, Addison Wesley, 1984, main character)

Arcade:

Ms. Pac-Man (Ms. Pac-Man, Bally Midway, 1981, main character)

Lady Bug (Lady Bug, Universal, 1981, main character)

Kissy and Takky (Baraduke, Namco, 1985, main characters)

Atari 2600 VCS:

Billie Sue (Wabbit, Games by Apollo, 1982, main character)

Dolphin (Dolphin, female Dolphin, Activision, 1983, main character)

Alice (Alice Adventure, Quelle, 1983, main character)

Laurie Strode (Halloween, Wizard Video Games, 1983, main character)

Blond girl (Ghost Manor, Xonox, 1983, selectable)

Leading Lady (Beat ‘em and eat ‘em, Mystique, 1983, main character)

Strawberry Shortcake (Strawberry Shortcake, Parker, 1983, main character)

Chinese Girl (Dancing Plates, Dishaster, Bit Corp.,Zimag, 1983, main character)

Inventa (handheld game & watch)

Snow White (Snow White, Inventa, 1983, main character

Sleeping Beauty (Sleeping Beauty, Inventa, 1983, main character)

Colecovison:

Anna Lee (Cabage Patch Kids, Coleco, 1984, main character)

Atari 8-bit:

Kim Kimberly (Snowball, Return to Eden, Level 9 Computing, 1983, 1984, main character)

Alexandra (Lode Runner’s Rescue, Synapse, 1985, main character)

Englishwoman (Plundered Hearts, Infocom, 1987, main character)

Sega SG-1000:

Papri (Girl’s Garden, Sega, 1984, main character)

C64:

Barbie (Barbie, Epyx, 1984, main character

Trixie Trinian (The secret of St. Brides, Audiogenic, 1985, main character)

Alter Ego female version (Alter Ego, Activision, 1986, main character)

NES:

Samus Aran (Metroid, Nintendo, 1986, main character)

So the first 'real' woman in a video game is Billy Sue (game: WABBIT, 1982) from 'Games by Apollo' on the Atari VCS 2600 console, the Guinness Book got it wrong! A correction is needed. Please, proper research required before posting such untruths. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.144.41.252 (talk) 06:20, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Can we get a better infobox image?

By 'better', I mean one that's representative of Samus' traditional appearance, the way she's appeared throughout most of the series rather than her design in Prime 3 (which is far from the newest game at this point). Are there any reasons why we couldn't use Other M artwork instead? Valjeanlafitte (talk) 22:40, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

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I noticed a mistake in the page when referring to Samus' height and weight.

The article mentions that Samus' official height from the Super Metroid handbook was a slight mistranslation, and that her aforementioned height and weight applied only to her in the suit. They cited a website released by Nintendo at around the same time as evidence. Upon investigation, the website does not seem to confirm this at all. The way the website is formatted makes any conclusion at most indecisive and at least actually in support of what was stated in the handbook. It's also worth noting that I've never seen this claim made anywhere else. RainingHavoc (talk) 23:49, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

References

The valia suit picture

Can I have the picture for de.wikipedia.org and who has make it?

• DenzlingerDenzlinger (talk) 09:33, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Kung Fu Man's edit

He ruined the infobox, we need to revert this. Can someone please message him and tell him never to do this again. GeekFreak98 (talk) 14:41, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

I just reverted Kung Fu Man's vandalism, can someone please talk to him and tell him to never do something like this again, I'll look for anymore articles to see if he has vandalized them too. GeekFreak98 (talk) 14:48, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

That's...um...not vandalism. The infobox is loaded with WP:CRUFT. You don't need all that in there to help the reader understand a character at a glance, which is the purpose of the infobox along with the lead.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 16:08, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Somebody went overboard and decided to add facts about her height, eye color, and for some reason hair color. I deleted the uneccesary information. Now I do agree with you that the infobox is too much. So here's why I'm gonna do, I'll add in universe facts about the Bounty Hunter, but not too much, I'll only add her gender, occupation, child, family, and Affiliation. I'll make sure nobody goes overboard on the infobox. (Plus your right bro, there was way too much crap in that infobox I'm sorry if I lost my temper). Now here's the thing you have to understand here, you don't have to delete her in universe information, it's missing something, you know? Every fictional character must have in universal facts.

So are you cool with me doing this, we're cool? GeekFreak98 (talk) 17:53, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

I kept her in-universe information in, but I shorten it. Thank you for informing this, I didn't know it was too much. If someone is overdoing or adding to much info in her in universe info, do not delete her in-universe info, just deleted the ones that are added. GeekFreak98 (talk) 18:23, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Delete Captain N as her significant other

We all know it's not canon, so why keep it? It's also making Samus' infobox bigger, which is too much. Imo, I think it's best to delete Captain N as her "significant other." In fact she doesn't even have one yet! So are we gonna remove Captain N from the infobox? — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeekFreak98 (talk • contribs) 15:33, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Infobox clutter

Just recently, Samus' infobox was filled with unnessecary and stupid information. Kung Fu Man deleted her in-universe information, which is bothersome and I completely understand why he did that. I brought back her in-universe information, but deleted unnessecary info about her, like her "spouse" and having way too many family members.

So to the editors reading this, please leave the infobox where is it, don't add any new info in, unless it's important. If you disobey, we'll revert and possibly report you if you continue. Thank you, Kung Fu Man for mentioning this.

Do not delete Samus' in-universe information, every fictional character should have in-universe information.

Editors and veterans of Wikipedia, I ask if you can secure this article for a while.

If your a newbie to Wikipedia and , please use sandbox.

Thank you

Special Thanks to Kung Fu Man GeekFreak98 (talk) 18:33, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

GameFreak, it still doesn't need that information. Nationality is meaningless when the character is from space, and any relationships can be covered in the article. I get you want to take charge of this article, but right now the key thing is making sure cruft and bloat don't eventually pull it down from Good Article status.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:27, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Needs another Good Article reassessment

If this article was nominated at Wikipedia:Good article nominations today, I'd quick fail it. It's incredibly below current good article standards, from everything from reference formatting to over-detail. After reading this article for the first time today, I was going to formally renominate it, but thought I'd bring this up on the talk page first to see if anyone had any comments or wanted to display a willingness to improve the article without formal re-assessment. I note of the top 10 editors to this article, nine have not edited the page since at least 2012, and the other one is permanently banned from editing. Damien Linnane (talk) 01:59, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

I would support a GAR; the reassessment in 2011 was rather slim. Numerous Metroid games have come out since then and it's been over a decade. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 02:28, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

Samus Aran

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: No consensus to delist. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:07, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Extremely bloated and out of date reception section, and inconsistent referencing, among many other issues. Consensus from both talk page and WikiProject Video games that the article no longer meets GA standards. Damien Linnane (talk) 13:11, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Delist article still needs a lot of work, update and clean up.l despite sone editors attempted to clean up. Hold. GlatorNator (ᴛ) 23:48, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Comment Not opposed to delisting, but I'd like to ask that it not be rushed to desliting. Kung Fu Man and I are working on both cleaning up the reception and finding strong reception to add, as well as addressing sourcing issues. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 00:52, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

• Hold As long as it is actively being improved. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 07:09, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
• Comment: Improvements have been very impressive so far. I also recommend holding for now. Damien Linnane (talk) 08:25, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
• @Cukie Gherkin:@Zxcvbnm:@GlatorNator: Improvements seem to have stopped. The reception section is magnitudes better, but the issue of inconsistent reference formatting remains, and there's also citation requests. If this article was nominated for GA for the first time now and I was the reviewer, I wouldn't pass it until those issues was addressed. But since it already is a GA article and improvements have been considerable, I can't say I'm overly opposed to the article retaining its status for the time being and this GAR closing. I'm happy to hear the thoughts of others. Damien Linnane (talk) 04:38, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

  Not stopped, just slowed down. I'm doing it bit by bit. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 07:43, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

  No worries, I understand. In that case I won't check in again for a while. :) Damien Linnane (talk) 07:50, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

  BTW, I took care of the citation needed tags. QuicoleJR (talk) 00:34, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

@Damien Linnane, GlatorNator, Cukie Gherkin, Zxcvbnm, and QuicoleJR: do you feel that the article has been improved sufficiently to retain GA status? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:49, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

I do not currently see any major issues that would disqualify it from being a GA. QuicoleJR (talk) 11:55, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

The only remaining issue I see is the inconsistent referencing. As mentioned, if it was a new nomination I wouldn't pass it for GA until that was addressed, but I certainly don't think that's serious enough to strip the article of its current GA status. Damien Linnane (talk) 14:00, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

There are some things I'd like to do to improve it more, such as trim the Dread plot summary (but I don't want spoilers so), but otherwise I don't think anything there is disqualifying for GA status. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 16:04, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Useless references?

I only looked at the two last references 80 and 81 and gotta say these articles are pretty stupid, sorry. Ranking Smash Characters by their own personal preferences at seemingly random conditions. I really dont know what constitutes linking the character of Samus to these garbage articles that lack common sense and any credibility behind them. Fgwhlezm vrj (talk) 03:37, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Jeez calm down buddy - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 03:44, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

? Have you read these articles ?

Borderline offensive to put someones fan fiction into Wikipedia, "buddy". Fgwhlezm vrj (talk) 03:46, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Why are you being so aggressive about this lol - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 03:47, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Because some randos are quoted on Wikipedia about a topic they know shit about. Fgwhlezm vrj (talk) 03:49, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Den of Geek is a reliable source. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 03:51, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Maybe it's time to remove them then. Again, have you read the article? It's non.

-sense basically. Fgwhlezm vrj (talk) 03:53, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Maybe it's a language barrier thing? Because I honestly have no idea what points you are making. I'm also deeply confused by you calling this factually inaccurate: "So my rules say that Zelda and Sheik have to have different entries. That means discussing Zelda without the Sheik aspect." The author doesn't claim that Zelda and Sheik are unrelated, or make any factual declarations about the two. They're just saying that they are discussing them without factoring in the other into their ranking. To me, you've not actually detailed what doesn't make sense about this article. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 03:55, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Zelda and Sheik can't transform into one another in Ultimate unlike in Melee for example. Fgwhlezm vrj (talk) 03:57, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

The article doesn't state that they do. If you check other entries, the writer is not exclusively discussing Ultimate, as this is not a ranking of characters based on their role in Ultimate. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 04:02, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, ok, this man clearly is some God-like figure on here.

First and last day on Wikipedia for me, I guess.

I will not contribute to your fetish for some random video game garbage producer, sorry, that is just pathetic. Fgwhlezm vrj (talk) 04:05, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Dawg, if your response to "actually you misunderstood the author" is to throw a fit and make personal attacks, then I suspect that you don't really fit in on Wikipedia. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 04:07, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Fgwhlezm vrj, I'd indeed encourage you to find another website to vent your anger at, because your current attitude really doesn't align with our core values on Wikipedia. Here we're encouraged to work together in a civil manner, we achieve a consensus on an article's talk page (rather than making edits that you know very well are contested), and we don't resort to personal attacks when others disagree with us. Cukie Gherkin hasn't responded in a manner atypical from what would be expected of someone on Wikipedia, given how you started this discussion, so if you don't like them I don't think you're going to like any of us. Damien Linnane (talk) 05:09, 4 June 2023 (UTC)