Jump to content

Talk:Persecution of Christians by the Islamic State

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Requested move 25 December 2017

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved (non-admin closure).  sami  talk 23:09, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Genocide of Christians by ISIL → Persecution of Christians by ISIL – Unfortunately, the article has become to describe "what could have happened" instead of actual overview of the events. Indeed ISIL showed actual religious persecution and genocidal intentions towards Christian population in the Middle East and North Africa, but there were no actual massive casualties, but rather massive expulsions and to some degree intimidation and persecution. In my opinion "persecution" is the best descriptor of what actions of ISIL towards Christian populations (perhaps "genocidal persecution", but still not "genocide" per definition).GreyShark (dibra) 07:12, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - i have to note that the article was originally named Persecution of Christians by ISIL (between late 2015 to early 2016), until moved to current title in March 2016 without discussion.GreyShark (dibra) 07:22, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as not meeting with the definition of 'genocide'. There was no WP:CONSENSUS for the move, and it took place during major refactoring and moves of articles surrounding the subject of genocide. Yes, there were some populist allusions to being 'genocide' in the media at the time, but tabloid sensationalism is not the domain of scholarly RS on the subject... which is what an encyclopaedic resource like Wikipedia should reflect. Essentially, the article is WP:NOTNEWS (and old news at that). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:02, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 18 April 2019

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Calidum 15:55, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]


Persecution of Christians by ISIL → Persecution of Christians by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant – WP:PRECISION per WP:CONSISTENCY with Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. Not evident all readers are informed about the abbreviation. PPEMES (talk) 12:10, 18 April 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. SITH (talk) 18:08, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 21 June 2021

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Persecution of Christians by ISIL → Genocide of Christians by ISIL – The prior move requests (including archives for November 2015 and April 2016) did not receive much input. Additionally, since then, there has been a shift in how scholars and governments have classified the mass killings of Christians by ISIS. I believe that a an examination of academic sources would justify the change in the name. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 05:52, 21 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment by nom. Peer-reviewed academic pieces not only state that genocide has occurred, but also that there is widespread acknowledgement of the occurrence of genocide against Christians in Iraq and Syria.
  • A 2017 peer-reviewed piece states that Assyrians, Chaldeans, and Syriacs now encounter an Iraqi boundary that is exclusionary and enforced by violence, marginalization, and displacement. For the first time in a decade, there is now a pervasive acknowledgement that this community is at risk of disappearance, and ISIL has been recognized as committing genocide.
  • Another 2017 peer-reviewed piece states that In Syria and Iraq religious persecution erupted on a genocidal scale, not in an overcrowded prison cell. When ISIS (or Islamic State, or ISIL) launched itself from Syria into Iraq in 2014, the terrorist organization announced its intent to carry out a systematic, theologically and politically driven elimination of Christians on its way to establishing a global caliphate.
  • A 2021 peer-reviewed piece states that ISIS did engage in genocide against Christians as well as other ethno-sectarian minorities.
Outside of the peer-reviewed realm, there are two other noteworthy items I believe could be useful for discussion. The first is a 2015 joint letter from the International Association of Genocide Scholars that describe the situation as a genocide. The second is a 2016 Knights of Columbus report that contains an extensive documentation of the genocidal intent, genocidal acts committed, and effects on the population. And, for what it's worth, both the EU Parliament and the United States have declared it a genocide. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 05:52, 21 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The view that the persecution amounts to genocide should be covered in the article but I just don't agree that it's the WP:COMMONNAME for this event. For example, Google Scholar results are significantly higher for ISIS persecution of Christians[1] than ISIS genocide of Christians[2] If we're going to use a WP:POVTITLE declaring it to be a genocide, it's required by the article titles policy that one can demonstrate usage in a significant majority of English-language sources. (t · c) buidhe 03:45, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • support per nomination, and per the nominator's later detailed comment. —usernamekiran (talk) 21:05, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - call a spade a spade Red Slash 04:12, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 15 February 2023

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved BilledMammal (talk) 04:00, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Genocide of Christians by the Islamic State → Persecution of Christians by the Islamic State – This article is currently misappropriating statements by the EU, US and UK calling the persecution of "Yazidis, Christians and other religious minorities" by the Islamic State in Iraq "genocide", and using them to support the notion, in a somewhat WP:SYNTH-like manner, that the Islamic State's treatment of Christians can also, independently, be termed a 'genocide'. This is not correct. The international recognition of 'genocide' from the EU, US and UK, applies to the religious minorities as a collective, and does not allow for itemized genocide designations. The previous move appears to have overlooked this rather vital detail. The only bodies calling the persecution of Christians by the Islamic State in isolation a genocide are religious leaders who are not independent and in a position to determine such terminology. The case for the related Yazidi article Genocide of Yazidis by the Islamic State is slightly different in that there are also separate statements from the likes of OCHA [3] declaring the persecution of Yazidis a 'genocide' in its own right - something that is not, AFAIK, the case here. As for the EU, US and UK statements used here pertaining to the collective genocide of religious minorities, these would be more appropriately used to create an overarching Genocide of religious minorities by the Islamic State article. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:49, 15 February 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 11:27, 23 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - It isn't a genocide of Christians alone per se because they are not be exclusively targeted, it is all non-muslims being targeted, hence the nom is correct in that it is a "persecution of Christians", but a genocide of religious minorities. Estar8806 (talk) 03:42, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - The European Parliament resolution states "religious and ethnic minorities, such as Christian (Chaldean/Syriac/Assyrian, Melkite and Armenian), Yazidi, Turkmens, Shabak, Kaka’i, Sabae-Mandean, Kurdish and Shi’a communities, as well as many Arabs and Sunni Muslims, have been targeted by the so-called ‘ISIS/Daesh’; whereas many have been killed, slaughtered, beaten, subjected to extortion, abducted and tortured..." Genocidal violence by ISIS took place against Christians, against Yazidis, against Shia Muslims, and against many other ethnic, religious and/or ethnoreligious minorities. It violates WP:SYNTH to assume that ISIS was targeting ALL religious minorities just because they were religious minorities. There is no religion called "religious minorities" that was targeted by ISIS. ISIS knew who they were targeting and they targeted specific groups of people. (And when I say "genocide", I am referring to the conclusions that various governments and courts arrived at.) Therefore, it is a fact that ISIS perpetrated the genocides of Chaldean, Syriac, Assyrian, Melkite, and Armenian Christians, of Yazidis, of Turkmens, of Shabaks, of Kaka'is, of Mandeans, of Kurds, and of Shia Muslims. If you are, for example, a Syriac Christian, and you're talking to someone about the genocide of your specific group of people, you would say "ISIS is responsible for the genocide of Syriac Christians". If you were trying to be specific, you wouldn't say "ISIS is responsible for the genocides of (name multiple religious groups here)". Because it would be inappropriate synthesis to assume that ISIS targeted religious minorities just because they were minorities, I arrive at the conclusion that yes, it is appropriate to say that ISIS perpetrated a genocide of, specifically, Christians. Remember, genocidal violence took place against multiple different groups of people; they are not all the same people. Nythar (💬-❄️) 03:44, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The material you have cited just hammers home the point that it is a collective designation. Islamic State targeted every community composed of individuals that were not Arab Sunni Muslims. As I mentioned, the most fitting article for this would be one providing an overview of the genocide. As you state, Islamic State targeted Christians, Yazidis, Turkmens, Shabaks, Kaka'is, Mandeans, Kurds and Shia Muslims. To create individual genocide articles for each of these would simply be to create eight WP:POVFORKs. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:29, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Iskandar323: I think the number of words I wrote above diluted my point. I was saying that it isn't incorrect for someone to refer to the mass murder of their specific group as "genocide" without having to name all the other groups who were also subject to mass murder. Firstly, it is synthesis to assume that ISIS targeted "every community composed of individuals that were not Arab Sunni Muslims", but I want us for a moment to assume that's the case. Let's assume that the attacks by ISIS against all these groups of people are one genocide only (not exactly sure how that works, but let's assume that's the case). It still isn't wrong to say "genocide was perpetrated against Armenian Christians" or "genocide was perpetrated against Kurds" without needing to name all the other groups. So I do not think it is synthesis for an article to say the attacks were "genocide of Christians" because, as I show in my example, saying this doesn't indicate they're each separate genocides. It's just specific to the group of people whom the article focuses on. It doesn't mean there were a dozen genocides even though they're only recognized as one, as you're saying. — Nythar (💬-❄️) 09:11, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    First off, stop accusing me of SYNTH, as it is not AGF at all. What I have stated is that the EU, US and UK statements all refer to the persecution of "Yazidis, Christians and other religious minorities" collectively, but that these sources are being used to underline the notion of a Christian-specific genocide, where no source actually defines it as such. That is the true SYNTH here - and note that this is directed at the article, not at you are anyone else specifically. If you dispute this, you are welcome to provide the reliable sources that discuss a 'Christian genocide' outside of the context of other groups. Simple as that. Secondly, 'genocide' is an extremely strong word and one that Wikipedia should only be used when extremely rigorously sourced, not diminished for use in this that and every POVFORK that editors create. Secondly, for lack of a better analogy, many homosexuals were sent to concentration camps by Nazi Germany and form part of the demographic of victims of the Holocaust, but the relevant article on that is Persecution of homosexuals in Nazi Germany, not Genocide of homosexuals in Nazi Germany, or, if you want a religious group parallel, its is Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses in Nazi Germany, not Genocide of Jehovah's Witnesses in Nazi Germany. Etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:38, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Iskandar323: You haven't addressed anything that I said above. Okay, I'll address your points this time:
    "stop accusing me of SYNTH, as it is not AGF at all."
    I did not accuse you of SYNTH; I said it is synthesis to assume this or that.
    "many homosexuals were sent to concentration camps by Nazi Germany and form part of the demographic of victims of the Holocaust"
    The article The Holocaust states "The Holocaust ... was the genocide of European Jews during World War II" and "The Holocaust is understood as being primarily the genocide of the Jews, but during the Holocaust era (1933–1945), systematic mass-killings of other population groups occurred." It doesn't state that the persecution of homosexuals in Nazi Germany is specifically part of The Holocaust itself, which is usually understood to mean the genocide of European Jews during WWII. Also, these killings by ISIS have been recognized as genocide. I'd like to know where anyone determined that the persecution of homosexuals by Nazi Germany was a genocide.
    "these sources are being used to underline the notion of a Christian-specific genocide"
    Have you not read what I wrote above? A statement such as "genocide was perpetrated against Christians" without mentioning other groups doesn't mean it was a Christian-specific genocide. It just means "we're focusing on the topic of the genocidal violence against Christians." It's not SYNTH to name an article as such; it's just more specific to the topic. It doesn't mean genocide was only perpetrated against Christians, or that there were multiple different genocides. Isn't this simple to understand? Tell me if I'm wrong. And if you think there should be an article about all the genocidal violence perpetrated by ISIS and the FORKs then subsequently deleted, that's a completely different subject and is for you to decide. Here we're deciding what this article's title should be. That's the only focus of my replies. — Nythar (💬-❄️) 10:09, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I think you're wrong. Placing genocide in the title implies that the Islamic State's persecution of Christians can, in-of-itself, be referred to as genocide, when it cannot and no reliable source that I have yet seen actually does - hence it is synth-like, because it goes beyond what the sources actually assert. As for the other stuff, take for example the fact that "Besides Jews, the Germans murdered near 2,400,000 Poles, 3,000,000 Ukrainians, 1,593,000 Russians, and 1,400,000 Byelorussians" [4], and then ask yourself why articles titled Genocide of Poles in Nazi Germany do not exist (here's the closest), and mull on how, possibly, the bar for calling an individual persecution a genocide, is a rather high one. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:38, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Per nomination. Inconclusive as to whether ISIL's persecution of Christians reached the criteria bar for genocide as per Reliable, academic sources or international resolutions. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 04:42, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Pure splitting of hairs. The EU, UK and US have clearly labelled the killings of religious minorities as genocide. That obviously means that the killings of any group within this are also genocide. We alos have Genocide of Yazidis by the Islamic State and could have similar articles on any of the others. The terminology is correct. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:19, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Necrothesp: It most certainly is not hair-splitting. In the opening comment I specifically noted the exception of the Yazidis - for which there have been various separate, independent investigations and conclusions on the matter, such as from the UN. Separately, there have also been convictions, e.g. [5]. The bar for declaring 'genocide' is necessarily high, and here neither the UN nor any major human rights groups have applied that term specifically to 'Christians', not least because 'Christians' is not an ethnicity or easily delineated, contiguous community across Syria and Iraq; there are various Christian communities coming from various bachgrounds. In the EU resolution itself, it states "religious and ethnic minorities, such as Christian (Chaldean/Syriac/Assyrian, Melkite and Armenian), Yazidi, Turkmens, Shabak, Kaka’i, Sabae-Mandean, Kurdish and Shi’a communities, as well as many Arabs and Sunni Muslims... - so that is five different Christian communities mentioned there alone, alongside at least seven other ethnic and religious minority groups. Based on the logic that each of these mentions in this collective EU statement is a separate genocide, Wikipedia would have to have a dozen distinct 'Islamic State' genocides. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:56, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    And if you look at the article itself, you will see it is not even about a discrete period of persecution, but has sections mixing events in Libya in 2015 and Egypt in 2018 with event in Iraq/Syria in 2014/2015. Also, the 'Northern Iraq (2014)' section primarily details Christians fleeing in the face of the threat of conversion, taxation or violence, which is clearly ethnic cleansing, but no mention of 'genocide' is made - not until the 'reactions' section, where we have political statements from Hillary Clinton and individual European parliamentarians. There is then a figure in the infobox of 1,000 dead, repeated nowhere else in the article, and sourced to an audio transcript from a radio program. Unlike in the Yazidi article there are no peer-reviewed journal sources confirming any of this. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:19, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Wikipedia would have to have a dozen distinct 'Islamic State' genocides. And why should it not have? -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:23, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Is that apart from it not being well supported and clearly subject to WP:ECREE? Iskandar323 (talk) 13:30, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per the nominator's rationale. While I understand the complexities involved, the term "genocide" does have a specific meaning and connotation. Things like killing, beating, torturing, or taking other oppressive measures against a group are terrible, but they're not necessarily genocide. Likewise, conducting kidnappings for ransom isn't genocide. Insofar as the article demonstrably covers a wide range of acts of persecution against Christians by the IS that are not actually genocide, the proposed title is more accurate and is preferable. ╠╣uw [talk] 20:30, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The 2021 RM above looks dubious to me. It was demonstrated that some sources refer to this using the "genocide" term, but in no way was it demonstrated that this title is compliant with WP:COMMONNAME. Indeed, the most substantive !vote was in the Oppose, which cited evidence that "persecution" remains the most frequently used term when referring to it. I'm not negating the seriousness of this at all, but our naming decisions are driven by sourcing, not by WP:IDONTLIKEIT style arguments, or editors views on "calling a spade a spade".  — Amakuru (talk) 08:19, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Amakuru, doesn't seem the sources support genocide. Galobtter (pingó mió) 01:04, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Retrieved from "https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Talk:Persecution_of_Christians_by_the_Islamic_State&oldid=1252606869"