Talk:Normans/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Merging with culture, etc.

I don't claim to be an expert on Norman history, and no I haven't read a great deal of the sources. The points I have tried to make however are of a more generic nature which are not defeated by a simple acknowledgement by a publisher. I don't target any source here with this comment, but there is such thing as argumentum ad verecundiam if one is trying to press for a statement originating from an inadequate source. For some reason, these tend to be rife in the case of English sources on Norman history. A common theory suggests that although the Normans spoke their own French, or something Romance, that this is only because the population adopted the language whilst Normans are actually Germanic (as had been the Anglo-Saxons). In reality, this does not happen. The only legacy of a Germanic past was the name they gave to the region, and the local connotation this would have upon its citizens regardless of background. But if origin of the nation had to be dictated by origin of the demonym, then it is worth nothing that the word "France" is of Germanic origin as is the derivative "Franco-" which appears everywhere. The Franks were a Germanic race. But they spoke a Romance tongue - and this did not happen without assimilation into a Latin-speaking society. Such things have been commonplace all over the world. In Europe, the same thing happened with Bulgars (Turkic) forming a country, then becoming assimilated by Slavs, and all continuing a Slavic co-existence with neighbouring Slavs but with a Bulgarian demonym based on the name of the land. The Macedonian town of Kumanovo is so-called because it had been settled by Cumans (also Turkic), and although they were never reported to leave and today there are people in this world descended from those Cumans, it does not mean that the Macedonian Slavs and the Albanians to inhabit the town today are actually "Turkic people". We need to be careful not to fall into any traps and inadvertently create misconceptions here. Had the proto-Normans simply adopted the culture and tongue of the local French, you would have had a biracial society, Normans and French (as an example); yet two nations that speak the same language, do the same thing and have the same names (property of the language adoption) can only uphold these "differences in identity" for a limited time - as indeed was the case in the Duchy of Normandy. Likewise the idea that it may have been the French that were assimilated by the Normans is equally ludicrous, because it discards that a Frankish culture continues to exist and has evolved naturally on the territory of Normandy since before the name Normandy. I do not know the exact timeline that two nations became one, I know that once upon a time Normans and non-Normans were distinguishable and over time you were left with a culture and language that blended into the continuum of other Frankish neighbouring systems. We know the Germanic Normans and their early influence affected the local language, especially with regards pronunciation by all locals, but on the whole, this only amounts to partial borrowing (as opposed to a full borrowing when the entire word is adopted). Polish is full of German words and Bulgarian is full of Turkish words, but the two are still Slavic. So this is why we need more than a simple "Normans merged with the culture". --OJ (talk) 11:02, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Your opening statement summarizes the crux of the problem succinctly. Much, if not all, of what you describe above qualifies as WP:OR, and specifically the synthesis of published material. As such, it will be promptly reverted if you include it in the article without a reliable secondary source. Malik047 (talk) 16:02, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Dear editor, there is no WP:OR when citing generic properties, and besides, my change left your edit as you did. I merely added to it to provide information that is sourced to the hilltop. Your wording (which you appreciate I left) that a people merge with a culture is factually incorrect (and doesn't make sense), it implies a continuation of two ethnicities albeit with the same cultural properties that belonged entirely to one. --OJ (talk) 09:18, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

A more precise description would be that they began to adopt the culture in a process that would ultimately result in their full assimilation. --OJ (talk) 09:20, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

As previously noted, the science of Sociology defines the process of a people merging with a culture as cultural assimilation. Ergo, it is a well-established concept among mainstream scholars. Editors who, by their own admission, are not well informed about a subject are ill-advised to take a bellicose approach and make inroads in articles which are generally well sourced. This behavior is liable to result in edit warring. Malik047 (talk) 13:58, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

You're attacking the straw man. I didn't contest the definition within "science of sociology". What the Normans did went beyond cultural assimilation, they did exactly what the Frankish Germanic people did when among Latin speakers, what the Bulgars did when among Slavs, and what many nations have historically done. Cultural assimilation only refers to nations adopting other peoples' traditions (as Greeks, Albanians, southern Serbs, Bulgarians, etc. did with Turks during Ottoman rule - cultural assimilation yes, ethnic assimilation no.). With regards "bellicose apprach", I don't need to know the works of Shakespeare to know he couldn't have been born on February 31st. --OJ (talk) 13:02, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Your confusion appears to stem from an improper understanding of the term "Frankish". Historians broadly use "Frank" for two separate but closely related groups: Germanic tribes who inhabited the land between the Lower and Middle Rhine, and those among these Germanic tribes who later merged - culturally as well as ethnically - with the Gallo-Roman populations of Roman Gaul. The maternal heritage of the Normans stems from the latter group. Ergo, the Norman cultural & genetic make-up was as Frankish and Roman in origin as it was Norse. As things stand, your interpretation of these historical events is not supported by secondary sources, and therefore qualifies as WP:SYNTH. In the absence of a reliable secondary source which explicitly corroborates the interpretation you have laid out above, any edits aimed at advancing that interpretation in the article will be reverted. This won't be changing. Malik047 (talk) 10:39, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

There is no confusion from me. Today the country called France has a name of Germanic origin while the population is a direct descendant of Latin speaking people who assimilated the Germanic people, and when encountering the Normans, it happened a second time. The "two separate groups called Frank" as you describe has no relevance to the points I raised; you acknowledge they are Germanic and that is all. I am happy with the article after my last edit, and the only SYNTH here is your fanciful theory that Normans became "Gallo-Romanlike" but continued to co-exist as a Norse people alongside the Gallo-Romans in the same way Hungarians and Serbs live among each other in Subotica. So unless you can find secondary, or even primary/tertiary sources to support your claim, your preferred version won't be returning either. Best to cut your losses and stop trying to behave like some kind of authority over the article simply because you are versed in the subject. As I said, my point is that simple that it neither requires expert knowledge nor sources. You're the one advocating that a Nordic people co-existed with a Romanic race after "cultural assimilation". --OJ (talk) 16:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Decline

The article should more clearly explain the decline of the Normans, which is barely mentioned, if at all. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 17:34, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

"Germanic ethnic group"?

Lately, an editor has seen it fit to label the Normans as a "Germanic ethnic group" in the article's opening sentence, justifying himself with the fact that the Normans are descended from Germanic Vikings. However, modern scholarship defines Germanic peoples as speakers of Germanic languages, and the Normans didn't fit this criteria in 1066, and they still don't today, which makes the "Germanic" moniker misleading if not outright wrong. Moreover, it is redundant because the opening sentence does a great job at highlighting the group's Viking ancestry without referring to linguistic groups at any point; "are an ethnic group that arose in Normandy, a northern region of France, from contact between Viking settlers and indigenous Franks and Gallo-Romans".

For this reason, I have been undoing each and every of those edits, and will keep doing so until consensus is reached. Qualcomm250 (talk) 15:47, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

In any case the beginning of the article is incorrect. It's normandy that got its name from the Normans, not the other way around. Barjimoa (talk) 18:40, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

The beginning of the article didn't claim otherwise. If you want to specify that "Normandy" is from Norman, then you should add content to the etymology section of the article. The opening paragraph is too convoluted now. Qualcomm250 (talk) 05:31, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

The article already says what's the etymology of normans, but the opening paragraph is in contrast with that because it states incorrectly that the Normans arose in Normandy. They pre-existed their arrival in Normandy. Like the Lombards pre-existed their arrival in Lombardy. This is also stated in the britannica article and the first source of this article says it as well. Barjimoa (talk) 07:38, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

• I mean that you can always edit the etymology section to specify that "Normandy" comes from Norman and not the other way around. It doesn't have its place in the opening paragraph because the opening paragraph should be as concise as possible. Qualcomm250 (talk) 15:27, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Short description and intro are factually incorrect and in contrast with the sources provided

The Normans are usually described as Frenchified Vikings, but the intro and short description of this are all about the Frenchfied-part while omitting almost everything of the Viking-part. The result is a disaster, especially when it comes to the (mis)interpretation of the sources provided.

• The Britannica source provided says that the Normans were those Vikings, or Norsemen, who settled in northern France (or the Frankish kingdom), together with their descendants. The Normans founded the duchy of Normandy and sent out expeditions of conquest and colonization to southern Italy and Sicily and to England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland.
  • Not only the intro does not mention that (instead there is a generic "a people" rather than the specific "Vikings") but the short description of this article still says that the Normans originated in Normandy. Which is absurd. Again, it would be like saying that the Lombards originated in Lombardy.

• The same Britannica source says that Normans is alternative of Nortmanni meaning Northmen
  • This is absent. The only thing there is it's a Latin term rendered as Normanni rather than Nortmanni. Why? Is Britannica wrong on this?

• There is source by Chibnall, 1999 saying that In Normandy the conquering northmen had assimilated...the indigenous Frankish and Gallo-Roman peoples
  • The Wiki intro uses it to say the exact opposite: "Through generations of mixing with the native Frankish and Gallo-Roman populations, their descendants gradually became assimilated into the Carolingian-based cultures of France." Note that this is in contrast with another statement of the Wiki article "The new Norman rulers were culturally and ethnically distinct from the old French aristocracy, most of whom traced their lineage to the Franks of the Carolingian dynasty from the days of Charlemagne in the 9th century". Which one is correct?

• This is the portrait given by the Britannica source to the Normans:Despite their eventual conversion to Christianity, their adoption of the French language, and their abandonment of sea roving for Frankish cavalry warfare in the decades following their settlement in Normandy, the Normans retained many of the traits of their piratical Viking ancestors. They displayed an extreme restlessness and recklessness, a love of fighting accompanied by almost foolhardy courage, and a craftiness and cunning that went hand in hand with outrageous treachery. In their expansion into other parts of Europe, the Normans compiled a record of astonishingly daring exploits in which often a mere handful of men would vanquish an enemy many times as numerous. An unequaled capacity for rapid movement across land and sea, the use of brutal violence, a precocious sense of the use and value of money—these are among the traits traditionally assigned to the Normans.
  • This intro fails to mention all of their traits typical of Viking expansion, giving basically zero weigth to their Norse traits. Note that this article is part of the Norse peoject, but you wouldn't be able to tell from the short description and intro.

I'll see what I can do but I keep getting misunderstood. For now, i put this here so I can redirect users to the talk page istead of making my points over and over in the edit box. Barjimoa (talk) 12:21, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

I can agree that the intro fails to take note of some possible Viking traits of the Normans. However, your edits as they appear to me completely discount their Gallicised ones.

Most of the confusion stems from what exactly is a Norman. The word "Norman" comes from Old French Normant, a word referring to all Vikings and Norsemen. But seeing as Wikipedia already has an article on Vikings and an article on Norsemen, people aren't coming to this article to read about them, therefore it is about those inhabitants of the Duchy of Normandy who eventually conquered England and Sicily. In that regard, calling them Vikings is completely counterintuitive, and in fact Britannica goes against consensus on this; it goes against Marjorie Chibnall, the author of one of the sources who clearly distinguishes between Norman and Northman in her 2001 book "The Normans"; it goes against the historian R. Allen Brown, who in his similarly named 1994 book, makes the same distinction as he posits that these Northmen became Normans as they assimilated to the local culture. This is probably why this Britannica article is only cited when referring to Rollo's pledge of allegiance to Charles III.

To summarise, it would be wrong to cite the Britannica article when discussing the Normans' origins as it is a tertiary source that goes against consensus. And including some of the defining traits that it lists would mean going against WP:NPOV; foolhardy courage, craftiness and cunning that went hand in hand with outrageous treachery, unequaled capacity. It definitely reads like a 1950's children book about Vikings as User:Jalwikip wisely noted on this talk page before. Let us favour secondary sources and the work of historians; I will be adding sources more in line with the current intro. It is true that Marjorie Chibnall's citation seems a little weak in this context, however I have just the thing. And to be honest, I don't think this article should even be part of the Norse project; I mean, Rus people isn't. I just didn't remove it out of courtesy and respect for the project.

Now, to address your other two points, Medieval Latin shows a lot of variation depending on the author, so it's perfectly possible that both forms are correct. However, most chronicles seem to refer to the Normans as gens Normannorum, without the T. Make of that what you want, it really is a non-matter either way. And the two statements aren't in conflict with each other, because Ukrainians and Russians are culturally and ethnically different despite being part of similar Rus-based cultures. Qualcomm250 (talk) 23:13, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

How can you say that my edit discounted the Gallicised part? I had only added the Norse stuff (now deleted) without removing the French part. Let's take the wording aside for a moment. The substance of what I have read (even if we exclude Britannica) is that:

• It is impossible that the "Normans arose in Normandy". So this article starts off with a sourceless sentence. I'm sorry, but I don't see how it can stay. All the sources here talking about the Normans (and it seems to me that they mean it in the narrow sense, not wider Norsemen) do use the term for describing those Vikings who settled in France and their descendants even if they don't have precisely the wording of Britannica. "Those Vikings" were the original Normans and gave the name to Normandy, and not the other way around as this intro/short-description makes one think. "Their descendants" who continued to be called Normans were Viking settlers mixed with the assimilated Franks. This intro fails to make clear the sequence.

• This intro only says that they frenchified, adopted French religion and French language. But again fails to address what Viking aspects they retained and which they abandonded, making pointless the whole intro. Sort of like "They converted to Christianity". from what? "They adopted Old French"? from what? etc. etc. And, even more importantly, the elements of contintuity are completely missing. Britannica's wording may not be fine to us but at least that article has a correct structure in dealing with the subject.

This is also how the new author provided [R. Allen Brow] treats the subject, but again the Viking part has been left out: "The Normans were Vikings in origin....the connection between Normandy and its parent Scandinavia was long maintained after 911...".

It seems that there is no way out: every book/author/encyclopedia addresses the situation in these terms, so why shouldn't we? Barjimoa (talk) 09:08, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

It's only impossible that the Normans arose in Normandy insofar as the region was named after the conquering Norsemen. But if, hypothetically, we were to admit that the Normans this article refers to arose from contact between the Norse settlers and the locals, then it is perfectly possible and only becomes a matter of wording, and the issue becomes how to refer to Normandy while specifying that it was created as a fiefdom and as a region as a result of the Viking settlement, not forgetting to stress the fact that the Normans are neither Viking nor French. Let it be clear, however, that the sources do distinguish between Norman and Norseman. Chibnall's book, "The Normans", is used as a source in the article and refers to the Normans as mixed-blooded. Nowhere does she refer to the initial Norse settlers as Normans, and neither does R. Allen Brown. Not even in the example that you cited; no one is denying that the Normans have Viking origins. It's completely beside the point. If we were to admit that the Normans are a mix of Vikings, and local Franks and Gallo-Romans(which Allen Brown does in his other citation), then this statement wouldn't be any less true. You claim that every source addresses the situation in those terms, but you have yet to provide any evidence in that regard, Britannica excluded. Qualcomm250 (talk) 01:31, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

"Gallo-Germanic"

@Goodendag: you added the text "Gallo-Germanic" in the lead sentence, sourced to a YouTube video. Such videos are generally not reliable sources, and this particular one appears to be mere music that does not serve as a useful reference in this context. Per WP:BRD, I have reverted your edit and invite you to discuss your changes here. Moaz786 (talk to me or see what I've been doing) 21:59, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Clarify lead comment

"Norman adventurers played a role in founding the Kingdom of Sicily under Roger II after briefly conquering southern Italy and Malta from the Saracens and Byzantines, during an expedition on behalf of their duke, William the Conqueror, which also led to the Norman conquest of England at the historic Battle of Hastings in 1066."

How did the Norman conquests of southern Italy, Malta, and Sicily lead to the conquest of England? Fences&Windows 13:30, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

In January 2017 the article said: "Norman adventurers founded the Kingdom of Sicily under Roger II after conquering southern Italy from the Saracens and Byzantines, and an expedition on behalf of their duke, William the Conqueror, led to the Norman conquest of England at the Battle of Hastings in 1066." I think this version was better.--3knolls (talk) 19:16, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

3knolls, thanks! That's much better, I've used that wording again. Fences&Windows 13:48, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Removing this line from "Ireland section"

" Except for the native surname Fitzpatrick, a gallicisation of Mac Giolla Phádraig/Ó Maol Phádraig."

This is disputed, so I'm removing it from the article. The Dictionary of American Family names (Oxford University Press) lists both Norman and Irish origins for this surname. If you don't have access to the source, see Ancestry dot com's description, which was copied from the DAF.Jonathan f1 (talk) 02:25, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Article Opening

Hi, 3knolls.

Can you please stop trying to possess ownership of this article? I don't know what your interest is in altering the meaning of the text, but the fact that you are now lying in the edit summaries shows that this is not being done in good faith. This article has always stated that 'the Normans are/were an ethnic group'. There was no edit made on 18 September 2020. If you go back as far as 2018, it still says 'the Normans are an ethnic group'. 021120x (talk) 14:27, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, but you are wrong. Before this edit the article, regularly preceded by a hatnote, always stated «the Normans were...» : 2018, 2017, 2016, 2015, 2014 etc.--3knolls (talk) 16:49, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

There is either a misunderstanding here or a deliberate misinterpretation. The article currently says 'the Normans were inhabitants'. It previously read, 'the Normans were an ethnic group'. It used the term "ethnic group" for multiple years, which you've even validated in your diffs. The phrase 'ethnic group' was removed on 22 March 2021 without an explanation. The original wording was restored. What, exactly, is your issue with the term "ethnic group"? 021120x (talk) 21:39, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

As far as I can see, the original wording was: «The Normans were the people who gave their name to Normandy». Indeed "ethnic group" is not an accurate definition for the Normans (nor is it suitable for the Vikings), because "Norman" merely means "Norseman", and hence all the Norse formed a single ethnic group.--3knolls (talk) 05:16, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

That is the etymology of the name of their ethnic group. They arose through a syncretism of the invading Norse Vikings with the indigenous Gallo-French. They had their own culture, including their own origin myth, and own dialect (which is still spoken today) – completely distinct from the Norse. They are a specific ethnic group of people. 2018 to present 021120x (talk) 12:07, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

This seems to be a pretty reliable source, and it states: «The Normans were the people of Normandy». However I'd have no objection to swapping «people» for «population», but I couldn't find any reliable sources stating that the Normans were an «ethnic group», which would have a quite different meaning.--3knolls (talk) 14:24, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Why would any sources need to write that they were an ethnic group? That they were an ethnic group is self-evident. They were not just people living in Northern France. They formed a unique subculture as they occupied that territory, where they developed their own unique dialect of Old French, religious practices, customs. That they had an ethnic identity is obvious by the simple fact that they have a name -- 'Normans' -- used to distinguish them from other groups that lived in the region.

Here's a source calling them an ethnic group [1]. I support restoring the original wording.Jonathan f1 (talk) 03:36, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Indeed the current opening maintains exactly the original wording. However, Normans didn't have a distinct own name, because they shared their name with Norsemen (conversely, Vikings did have an own name, but not even they were a distinct ethnic group). Furthermore, the source cited by you does not state "the Normans were an ethnic group", but compares the Normans with other "cultural, linguistic, or ethnic" medieval groups instead.--3knolls (talk) 06:30, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

No, the source says exactly that. "More than any other cultural, linguistic, or ethnic group in medieval Europe, the Normans inspire the question.." The phrase "more than any other" implies the Normans were a cultural, linguistic and ethnic group in Medieval Europe (and they were). If I said to you, "More than any other candidate, William received the most votes," what's that sound like to you? That William's not a candidate?

Come on, the sentence was perfectly clear.Jonathan f1 (talk) 17:16, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Britannica states Normans were members of Vikings or Norsemen, which means: Normans plus Vikings plus Norsemen formed an ethnic group. I would agree to write that an ethnic group was formed by Normans, Vikings and Norsemen, but not Normans alone, unless you would consider "Normans" as a mere synonym of "Vikings" and "Norsemen", which would imply "Vikings" and "Norsemen" redirecting to the present article.--3knolls (talk) 17:42, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm really not following you. The Vikings were Norsemen. The Normans did not form an ethnic group; the Normans were an ethnic group that formed via contact between Norse Vikings and indigenous Gallo-Romans and Franks in what is now Northern France.Jonathan f1 (talk) 21:26, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Currently this article says: "The intermingling of Norse settlers and native Franks and Gallo-Romans in Normandy produced an ethnic and cultural "Norman" identity". Why do you want to obliterate the word "cultural", if even your source states so? I would rather add the word "linguistic", if ever (Wikipedia has an article dedicated to the Norman language too). If even your source uses three adjectives ("cultural", "linguistic", "ethnic"), there is no reason for singling out "ethnic" only.--3knolls (talk) 07:05, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Having a cultural identity is a universal feature of ethnic groups. To say that a group has an 'ethnic identity' but no 'cultural identity' is incoherent [2].Jonathan f1 (talk) 18:45, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

However an ethnic identity does not necessarily imply a linguistic identity, so I would simply suggest replacing "cultural" with "linguistic".--3knolls (talk) 20:44, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

The Norman Conquest of Scotland

The Norman invasion and Conquest of Scotland is invariably under-reported - not least by modern Scottish writers who often seem to prefer that it never happened.

A reading of the wikipages on David I and and Henry I is enlightening.

Henry, son of William the Conqueror, organised the Norman invasion, but it was nominally headed by Prince David heir to the throne of Alba (the Celtic Highland Kingdom then known to English speakers as 'Scotland'). With Henry's Norman-French army David seized the crown of Alba, but set up his base in Edinburgh, in Alba's English province of Lothian.

On Henry's death a Norman civil war ensued 'the Anarchy'. The consequence was that David now King of the Albanach (known only in English as 'King of the Scots') and his Norman allies and supporters were left with an independent Anglo-Norman kingdom based in Lothian, with the old Celtic highland kingdom of Alba as a territorial rump. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.217.179 (talk) 13:01, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

The first settlers to Canada came from Normandy?

It says under the "Canada" section "The first settlers to Canada came from Normandy". Maybe the first European settlers, but wern't the Natives in Canada first? 216.99.51.165 (talk) 23:06, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

That's rubbish. The first Viking settlers in Canada were from Greenland and possibly Iceland. 50.111.0.129 (talk) 13:04, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Map

Why does the map not include the Norman conquests in France they conquered the western half of France and pretty much started the Angevin empire which was handed down to the kingdom of England86.181.82.140 (talk) 16:12, 17 August 2010 (UTC)