Talk:Normans/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Why using the past tense?

Considering that I consider myself ethnically Norman, and I come from an Hiberno-Norman family, why does this article say we no longer exist since the 13th Century?202.70.51.189 (talk) 20:42, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

The Normans were a people from medieval northern France, deriving to a large extent their aristocratic origins from Scandinavia (the name is adapted from the name "Northmen" or "Norsemen"). They played a major political, military and cultural role in the northern and Mediterranean parts of medieval Europe and the Near East, eg. the colonisation (and naming) of Normandy, the "Norman Conquest" of England, the establishment of states in Sicily and southern Italy, and the crusades.

I understand medieval normandy is important to Anglo-Saxon but shouldn't the first part of the article simply say the Normans are the residents of Normandy, comprised of the two French regions and the channel islands? As far as I remember, being myself partly a Norman family (from Normandy) this people isn't extinct. Matthieu 11:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

The Normans are extinct. The modern people of Normandy are Frenchmen plain and simple. Their distinctly Norman identity is primarily or solely cultural now. This article discusses not just a culture but a people and, dare we say, a nation, ethnicity, and "race". This identity was more or less gone by the thirteenth century. Srnec 04:31, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

You can't have had any conversations with Norman-speakers recently, then. And thanks for drawing my attention to the fact of my extinction which, as a Norman, had escaped me ;-) Man vyi 06:32, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, why do you say we are extinct? We are very much alive and kicking and very aware of our heritage. Normandy is only part of the picture. To describe all Normans from Normandy as being only French is also a little naive. Norman language has nothing to do with it. I am currently a native English speaker.202.70.51.189 (talk) 20:42, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Conversations with Norman speakers would be irrelevant to this. If we take Norman to mean "one born in or living in Normandy", then there are still Normans of course. But these are not the Normans this article deals with. I am not aware of any genetic testing done on this and I am slightly sceptical of the accuracy of such testings, but I doubt that people born in or living Normandy are any more likely than Englishmen to have Norman ancestry. How much ancestry does one need to have in order to be a Norman? Or how recent must one's Norman ancestors be to be considered a Norman? Norman identity today is different from the Norman identity this article deals with. That is what is extinct, irrespective of whether there are people identifying as Normans today. You are probably no more Norman in the sense of this article than I am. Srnec 17:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Genetics can not be used as a criterion for ethnic or national identity. That is an extremely outdated idea.--Barend 17:33, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

And of course other articles such as English people, Welsh people, and Briton, do not assume arbitrary historical cut-off dates. Perhaps we should disambiguate Norman people, if there's a demand? Man vyi 17:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I never claimed that nationality was genetic, but ethnicity is. You either are a Slav or you're not. I can choose to remain Canadian or to identify as Canadian, but whether I recognise it or not, I have Croat blood in me. "Genetics" is simply ancestry. And ancestry is ethnicity. Any other definition is, in my opinion, nonsense. Ethnicity may be unimportant to one's identity (it counts for little in mine), but it is not arbitrary or voluntary.

The fact is that the people who are called Normans and who conquered England in 1066 and Sicily in 1061-90 were not Normans in the modern sense of the word. I should probably find a source that says so, but I have seen it more than once stated that the Normans ceased to be a distinct people in the late twelfth/early thirteenth century. Perhaps disambiguation is needed here, because I think there are two distinct concepts covered by "Normans", just as "Britons" can refer to the modern English or British or to the ancient Celtic peoples that are now represented mainly by the Welsh. The concepts are very distinct and the Norman case isn't much different. Srnec 21:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

You very succinctly describe what I consider an outdated idea. Ethnicity is not genetic. The idea of the "blood in" people is a romantic idea, but nothing more. The Normans who conquered England would, genetically, be the descendants of Scandinavians (who in turn might be descended from Scandinavians or from thralls captured in the British Isles, the Baltic or other places), of Franks, of Romans, of Gaulish Celts, and possibly other people. But they identified themselves as Normans. Therefore they were an ethnicity. I am not taking sides as to whether or not the Norman ethnicity became extinct. But if it did, it wasn't because the "blood line was watered down", or whatever. It would have been because being Norman ceased to be a part of people's identity. --Barend 23:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the issue here is identity and that is not dependent on the blood in one's veins. However, that individuals have a genetic makeup is true. This is determined by their ancestry. Ancestry is not chosen, nor is ethnicity. If I decide to self-identify as ethnically Chinese, am I ethnically Chinese? Even though I have no known Chinese ancestors? I may chose to become a Chinese citizen and partake extensively of Chinese culture and even identify myself as "Chinese". That would make sense. What makes no sense is to claim that I am an ethnic Chinese with no evidence of Chinese ancestors. Ancestry, family, blood, genes, ethnicity is all one aspect of identity and an unchosen one at that. I repeat, this does not mean that such an "identity" will be recognised or even known in all cases, but thanks to modern biology it is always knowable (and that testifies to its existence).

Also, the "extinction" of the Normans would have been due to the loss of identity, but that loss of identity may very well have been due to the "watering down of bloodlines" insofar as that would have required families spanning multiple ethnicities and cultures and the familial and share cultural bonds which may have helped to sustain the identity of the people could thus have been destroyed [through intermarriage]. Am I being clear? Is there still disagreement? Srnec 00:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Clarifier: I think there is simply disagreemen on what's the best definition of ethnicity to use. I self-identify as Canadian, but that is not an ethnicity in my books. Srnec 00:50, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

You are being clear, and there is still disagreement. I think we have both stated our case, and have to live with the disagreement. The question, for this article, is, as far as I can see, whether there has been a continuous sense of a Norman ethnicity (however you define it) from the time of the Normans that the current article describes, to the people who today call themselves Normans, such as Man Vyi.--Barend 18:02, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

My answer to that is "no". Srnec 20:19, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can remember, people from Normandy are still refered to as Normans, that alone answers the point. If you talk strictly about Medieval Normans why isn't there a distinct article on the topic? I totaly agree with Man Vyi, this article should be disambiguated as people landing here may come to believe there isn't single Norman (as a modern Norman) in Normandy. Matthieu 17:25, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

That does not answer the point. A resident of Rome is still called a Roman, but "the Romans" are a different people. Srnec 06:10, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

But when I type Romans in wikipedia the first thing I get is: "A thing or person of or from the city of Rome.". Although if I type Normans I land on this page who talks as if there no longer was such thing as Normans. Matthieu (talk) 12:21, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

• In terms of modern English usage, I believe it is reasonable to state that "the Normans" commonly applies to a group of people, from the approximate region of present day Normandy, known for various exploits from approximately 900AD to 1200AD. I note that there is a category "People of Normandy". It perhaps remains a reasonable question as to whether that requires an article in its own right - but I remain comfortable that this article should refer specifically to a well known epoch in European history. A new page entitled: Normans (disambiguation), might be the go. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 06:24, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

"Northmannia"? Original LATIN?

Now really, I know a bit of Latin and the first two sylabics of "...(Northmannia in its original Latin)." are English and German respectively, with a Latin suffix (ia) at the end. Wouldnt it be something along the lines of "Homini(s) Borealis"? ΤΕΡΡΑΣΙΔΙΩΣ(^Ταλκ) 20:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

This is medieval dog Latin we're talking about. And we're also talking about the place, Normandy, not the people, the Normans. The original Latin phrase was Northmannia because there was no Latin phrase preceding it, it stole its roots from Germanic. Srnec (talk) 20:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

The spelling with H is not right. The first time the word is recorded as Nortmannus (10th Century, Aimoinus Sangermanensis).Nortmannus (talk) 18:56, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Rollo

Why do you call him Hrolf, when we don't know if that really was his name?

Why do we write Danish "OR" Norwegian. When we know for sure that there was Danes, (arcording to "Bayeux tapestry", founds from Normandy in Denmark, and writing about Danish people). But don't know if there was Norwegians.

So where does the norwegians come from? --Comanche cph 14:58, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I think, there are better reasons to call him Hrolfr than Rollo, that is a wrong latin form. The documents call him very often Rioulf or Rouf and later Rou, and the phonetic evolution makes sense in French. Hrolfr > Rolf > Rouf > Rou. We can call him Robert the First, because he was baptized as Robert in 911. Nortmannus (talk) 00:52, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Is it Hrolf or Rollo? However, in Jersey C.I., there is an ancient cry one gives out when a man is relieving himself in a public area, it is "Rollo, Rollo, Rollo, Forgive me for I am in pain" I take this to mean that as long as you call to the Duke (Rollo) you can be absolved from the act in question. My point is that if the Duke had been called Hrolf, then the people would have called him Hrolf. They did not, they called him Rollo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.40.237.24 (talk) 11:17, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

This is nonsense. See Clameur de Haro. Man vyi (talk) 11:54, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

True Man vyi, that's Haro not Rollo. That's well known that the name Hrolfr sounded Rou(f) in the Middle Ages in Normandy.Nortmannus (talk) 19:46, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Norman expansion map

Norman holdings from 880 AD to 1204 AD (click through thumbnails to view animation).

I've drawn an animation showing the land holdings of the Normans from 880 AD to 1204 AD. I've used articles like the Norman article itself, Norman conquest of southern Italy, Norman conquest of England, a few articles about specific cities in Ireland, and Principality of Antioch as primary sources in making this map. I've also used information from already made maps found in the aforementioned articles. Common sense was used while making this, and I of course used the most trustworthy source when I found conflicting information.

I recently inserted this into the article, but it was undone after a few hours, so I'm stuck here, since I want to avoid an edit war, but I really want people to see this map, as I've worked on it for quite some time. --Fede-lasse (talk) 21:52, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Find the appropriate image license for it if you haven't already done so by clicking here, if you do not have the correct tag this will warrant it's removal. It is evident that you put effort into the image however it does not animate until you've expanded it, furthermore you would need to provide separate references for each frame which highlights occupation of a new territory. One reference describing all of these would suffice. --Eidetic Man (talk) 23:00, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I removed the map, as I found the animation underwhelming. I also found the sourcing confusing. All in all, I thought it added little to the piece. I wouldn't object to such an illustration in general, but this one is not it. MarmadukePercy (talk) 23:14, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough, I'll find all sources. I'll get back to you when I've finished doing so. --Fede-lasse (talk) 15:45, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations very nice map! Petethewhistle (talk) 11:58, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Clean-up needed

The introduction reads like it's from some 1950s boys book about vikings, with all those NPOV adjectives thrown in. It needs a major clean-up, especially this section:

They displayed an extreme restlessness and recklessness, a love of fighting accompanied by almost foolhardy courage, and a craftiness and cunning that went hand in hand with outrageous treachery. In their expansion into other parts of Europe, the Normans compiled a record of astonishingly daring exploits in which often a mere handful of men would vanquish an enemy many times as numerous. An unequaled capacity for rapid movement across land and sea, the use of brutal violence and a precocious sense of the use and value of money were all traits that characterized the Normans.

I mean, really... Jalwikip (talk) 11:13, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Funnily enough, that was a copyvio introduced by a User:Alphasinus [1], a blocked sockpuppet who was edit warring over 'Viking'-type articles. He appears to have ruined the Norsemen article with copyvios for the time being.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 21:25, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Attributes and flags

Hey does any one know why these guys had a lion like a coat of arms? I mean when they descend from vikings and come from north why they have an African or Asian animal on the flag? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nix1129 (talk • contribs) 20:58, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

The Normans did not have any lion on their coat of arms or flags. The two or three lions (called "leopard" in French and "cat" in Norman) were added by the Plantagenets in the 12th century when they inherited of Normandy and England, because the lions were designed on Geoffrey Pantagenet's own coat of arm. The lion symbolizes strength and power in French fort comme un lion "strong as a bear".Nortmannus (talk) 23:56, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't know the answer to this question but did they use the Raven Banner or does anyone know where I can look up more stuff on the subject. daintalk   20:09, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

As far as I know the only example of a Raven Banner used by the Normans might be represented on the Bayeux Tapestry.Nortmannus (talk) 20:49, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Normans who invaded and settled England

I'm aware most inhabitants of Normandy were Celtic, with a bit of Germannic, and also that the Lords and nobles were Norse, so would this mean most of the Normans who settled England were Celtic? It seems to me to be safe to say.~ Hraegene —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.145.72.176 (talk) 02:17, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

Snyder in The Britons notes that the Normans brought in Breton nobles, who were of course Brythons and so Celts in the modern sense, while of course the inhabitants of Normandy which had been Keltiké had presumably intermarried or come under the rule of the "Norse" Normans. Contact me Ibefore it goes back to the library) if you want the Snyder reference explained. .. dave souza, talk 18:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The Normans who settled Britain were French! They spoke French (a Romance language), not a Germanic language, and possibly with the exception of some Bretons who followed them, not a Celtic language. There's no need to invoke any wooly half-racialist 18th century ethnic badge other than French, which is exactly what they and their neighbours called them. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 19:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

One should distinguish ethnicity and language. The populations of the territories incorporated into the Duchy were probably a mixture of Celtic and Germanic (Norse and Frankish) people varying in proportion across the territories - with perhaps a tendency to higher Norse concentration in coastal areas. The Norman language forged by the adoption of the prevailing Romance by Norse speakers is entirely independent as a language of administration from the ethnicity of the populations using it. Many of the Celtic Bretons in any case would have been Gallo speakers rather than Breton speakers. The linguistic frontiers, of course, at that period would have been less marked as the languages had diverged less at that period - however the later development and spread of French (and here I discount the Francien theory) tends to overlay and mask distinguishing features in the dialect continuum. Man vyi 08:47, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Totally meaningless. No evidence any Norman spoke any Germanic language in the 11th century. They and the supposedly different Gallo speakers were Franci... French. That was their only ethnicity. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 15:11, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Is anyone suggesting that Normans spoke a Germanic language in the 11th century (except of course those that may have spoken English either in England or Normandy due to the cross-Channel links)? The Norman language is certainly marked by Nordicisms - it's one of the features that distinguishes it from Gallo. Linguistics aside, I find it hard to believe in the existence of a French ethnicity in the 11th century. Man vyi 18:09, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, this is probably because you've not read any sources from that period. The Normans are the "French". You are suggesting they spoke a Germanic language by calling them Germanic; "Germanic" is a linguistic term, and is not a race.

Actually 'Germanic' though unpopular due to Anti-Germanism after the Second World War, is more than just linguistic as many on Wikipedia seem to claim, while at the same time classing 'Celtic', 'Slavic'...etc...as Ethnic groups, it's a cultural thing, an Ethnic group that combines folklore, linguistics, culture, law and even cuisine to make up it's part. It is an Ethnic group as much as all the others, Nazis being Germanic or not. For the record the Normans are not Germanic as they integrated into Romance/Mediterranean culture much like the French are not Germanic or Gallic. Ethnicity is not to be mixed up with Ancestry and Genetics...it is NOT a genetic affair. And yes 'Ethnicity' is not a race...last time I checked all ethnicities comprised of members of the Human race.

Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 16:23, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 18:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, the Normans were an ethnic mix of many different peoples going back thousands of years... Everybody is. The whole ethnic question is rather meaningless. The Normans spoke French (albeit a dialect distinct from Parisian) and were Frenchmen, as their own Domesday Book attests. Srnec 04:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

When considering a feudal period (i.e pre-nation-state) I think it's probable that allegiance was important to the people of that time rather in the way that nationality is now. My opinion FWIW is that those who owed allegiance to the King of France might have considered themselves "French" in a way that cuts across modern ideas of nationality - but then we live with a situation of competing or overlapping identities in Normandy today. Man vyi 07:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

This discussion is irrelevant beside the simple fact that the Normans of 1066 (and the following century) did not consider themselves to be 'French' and were not considered to be French by their contemporaries - insofar as the concept of being 'French' existed at all at this time. Language is not enough, is a Scotsman English? A Swiss German? Where the term 'Franci' is applied in Latin texts, it's simply an attempt to apply a label that covered the diverse people under William - Normans, Flemings, Bretons and Frenchmen (obviously Flemings and Bretons only spoke the Romanz dialects as the ancestors of French were then called as an acquired language). Bear in mind that at this time Germans were still being called 'Franks' by eastern Europeans, exclusive French ownership of the Frankish name was not yet established. 'Continental' would be a more accurate translation of Latin 'Franci' in England. The English themselves called the Normans 'Frenciscans' and distinguished them from the French who were 'Francans' - in old English a 'Norman' was a Norwegian, as is still the case in Danish and Norwegian, hence the need for another name - so the translation of Frenciscan as 'Frenchman' is also an anachronistic mistranslation, it denotes a Norman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.184.115.220 (talk) 08:41, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Diaspora

Are there reliable sources on the Norman diaspora?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 19:58, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes. Why are you asking? Ealdgyth - Talk 20:35, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Elvis Presley.

He is listed as French Norman, meaning that that he has Norman ancestry from France. So I was looking to see if I can link to a Norman American article, which does not exist.

This is why I asked.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 00:40, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Canada

The fact that people left from Dieppe does not make the settlement of Canada Norman. Also by the 17th C the while idea of the Normans as a distinct group is a nonsense. There is one reference to a french language book - can we have a translated text of that please as I doubt it will pass verification. --Snowded ^TALK 21:47, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the deletion. The addition is poorly sourced and far-fetched. MarmadukePercy (talk) 21:55, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

In Canada( Quebec) We all know that we have the norman accent. My ancestors were Norman. Around 20% of the entire setlers were from normandy( they lived there)..15% were from Bretagne and around 10% from Picardy. Of course The normans got big family in Quebec and, at the present day, we got a normans kind of accent. Of course its not because they left from dieppe thats make them normans. Some Statistic are available.(other soon):-) http://magene.chez-alice.fr/quebec.html (sorry its in French, i will translate it for you soon). Thank you for your patience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elviselvis (talk • contribs) 22:24, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Other statistics concerning all immigrants say 14% from Normandy, directly followed by Parisians 13%. They spoke Norman ? certainly not, people considered that French was almost as well spoken in Canada as in Paris, because almost nobody spoke regular French in France, except Paris. No, the Canadian accent is not specific of Normandy but of all the Western part of France to Poitou (nasal accent) and Canadian French uses for other phonems the typical one from regular French, not Norman.Nortmannus (talk) 14:09, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

They may be from Normandy but that does not make them Norman in the sense of the article. Quebec was settled from France, your own figures show that only a small percentage even came from Normandy. The Normans date from Rollo as a distinct entity really end with the Angevin Empire. You will need a reliable source if you want to argue for the concept being valid in the 17th C --Snowded ^TALK 22:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

No, I do not agreee with you, Norman identity was still strong in the 17th century, due to the very specific Norman law that ruled and organized the relationships between people.Nortmannus (talk) 14:09, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer, You are right about the fact that after the angevin empire been norman wasnt the same as before. But still today, you could find an important part ,in Normandy, of (normans)nationalist. What i mean is if today you still find Norman nationalist and they speak Nourman(language), in the 17th century a lot of them felt been normans first, and as french second. Even if their language was close to french. Still my grand-father told me so many time about his norman descent...At the end, even if between 20 and 30% of (french-canadien) are Normans blod related, the first settlers where Norman-French, and that influenced the cultural background of some Frech-canadien. I will bring more source soon...thanks again for your knowledge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elviselvis (talk • contribs) 01:05, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

You might want to read WP:INDENT, it makes it easier to follow a thread. I'm very happy to accept that norman-french survived in some way but that really is a separate issue from an article on the Normans. If you can find citation support there could be an argument for a paragraph at [Norman language] on its influence on the development of French in Canada, e.g. if some of the distinct words have moved across. If there is a reliable source that the culture of Québec has links to the Normans specifically then there might just be a case for a sentence here, but I would suggest it would be better at Normandy and Québec. Whatever I am afraid that your memories of the great-grandfather are not enough to justify inclusion here. I will remove the paragraph now as there is no citation support for it. If you have the references bring them here or to my talk page and I will happy to help draft something that will survive. --Snowded ^TALK 06:05, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think Québec has a specific Norman background, more than a French one. According to Histoire de l'Amérique française, G. Havard and C. Vidal, Flammarion. 14% of the immigrants were from Normandy, but does it count Perche ? (that is not Norman and the Gagnon, Cloutier, Fortin, Tremblay, etc. are from it), followed by the Parisians 13%, etc. Most of the immigrants were from the North Western part of France and were from the cities. In the 17th century France a large majority of people were farmers and it was the place were the traditionnal cultures (custums, dialects, languages, etc.) were kept. The French Americans were mostly from cities (the French farmers are the only Europeans that never immigrated to any place), were the dominating culture was already from Paris. About the language, it was said about the Canadian colony, that the visitors could almost hear as good French as in Paris, because nobody (outside the big cities) could really speak French (Parisian) in France. About the Canadian accent, it does not sound more Norman than Angevin or Saintongeais or Poitevin or Gallo, all the same nasal accents in the western part of France. The typical Norman words are rare and the phonetics does not have anything to do with the real Norman language spoken northern of the Ligne Joret that influenced more the English language than the Québec French. In fact, there is a Norman mythology in Québec because most French explorers, sailors, tradors who financed the expeditions were from Normandy and even when they were not they sometimes chose the Norman ports to sail to America (for example Champlain). Paris is closer connected with the Norman ports (Rouen, le Havre, Dieppe,...question of distance) as with the other ports of France. To conclude, it is said that the first settler was Louis Hébert 1617 and he was from PARIS (for sure he has a Norman surname). Very significant according to me. Nortmannus (talk) 19:37, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Questions

i'm doing a histry homework i wondered could any-1 tell me what colour of hair the normans had?

Blue. 62.77.181.16 12:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Blonde, black, brown, mousey, auburn, ginger I'd imagine, much like the rest of most Northern Europeans. It wasn't their hair-colour, but the cut of it, hard short-shorn back and sides, and a general lack of facial hair (early Norman) which was distinguishable from their contemporaries. Brendandh (talk) 17:59, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Characteristics & traits

The section "Characteristics & traits" consists of nothing but longer quotes of older sources, with description of traits that seems very questionable. I deleted a long quote from Encyclopedia Brittanica, since the usage of it in such a way bordered WP:COPYVIO. The last Anna Komnene quote, which does not describe Normans, but rather one particular Norman seems more than questionable. Whether he was representative of Normans in general is unknown, and thus the connection borders on WP:SYNTH. The Goffredo Malaterra quotation as well only conveys Goffredos view on the Normans, and cannot be used in the way it is implied by the title of the section here as a general description of Normans. I would recommend that the section be deleted as unencyclopedic and not contributing anything to the article. In general I think that we should avoid sections in articles on historical peoples with anachronistic "Characteristics & traits", that is not how scholarship works in modern times. --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:04, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

The inclusion of these quotes is mandated by WP:PSTS and WP:SECONDARY. The Goffredo Malaterra & Anna Komnene quotes constitute primary sources. The Encyclopedia Britannica quote serves as a secondary source, which is explicitly required by Wikipedia policy. Per WP:PSTS: "Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors."

Per WP:PSTS, the Encyclopedia Britannica quotation is a secondary source, "needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources". Since these quotations are directly relevant to the subject and represent primary sources together with secondary sources, I see no compelling argument in favor of their exclusion. 2A02:1810:519:9E00:D824:116D:B084:DBF2 (talk) 11:20, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

No. That is definitely a textbook example of wrong usage of Wikipedia policy regarding primary and secondary sources. First of all the Encycl. Brit. is a tertiary source, and the quote does not mention the two primary sources at all, and thus cannot in any way be said to be the qualifier of them. You will need to present specific secondary sources treating those two specific sources and all the usual source criticism problems that such sources contain. As they are currently presented the two primary sources are presently being used in their own right as claims regarding "characteristics and traits" nothing else. The Encycl. Brit. quote is still a potential copyvio problem, since the one sentence of prose that precedes it is barely enough to justify the long quote. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a collection of sources, so this way of building sections with long block quotes and almost no editor prose is simply not the proper way to go about it. We do not let primary sources speak for themselves in this manner, for generalised statements, especially about such a questionable term as "characteristics" or "traits" of peoples, we do require secondary sources. --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:34, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Your objections against the inclusion of these two primary sources appear to be based on the contention that they may represent a case of original synthesis. WP:SECONDARY is a policy aimed specifically at preventing instances of such original research, or original synthesis, of primary sources. The Encyclopedia Britannica quote has been provided for precisely this purpose; as a secondary source explicitly required by WP:PSTS to prevent original synthesis of primary sources by Wikipedia editors. The Encyclopedia Britannica being a tertiary source does not alter this, as clearly outlined by WP:PSTS: "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources."

Your argument would have merit if no secondary or tertiary sources were available to provide context for these primary sources. That is not the case here. 2A02:1810:519:9E00:D824:116D:B084:DBF2 (talk) 11:59, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

They are used as WP:SYNTH in this context. I think you should perhaps read up on Wikipedia policy of primary, secondary and tertiary sources. Encyclopedia Britannica is not a secondary source, and so your argument based on policy, an argument which is in itself wrong, since your interpretation about usage in this way via block quotes and barely any editor prose to bind those quotes together is not what is implied, does not hold up. Tertiary sources cannot be used in this way, and secondary sources that are used as qualifiers for primary sources needs to explicitly mention those primary sources, especially because the primary sources contains exceptional claims.

Again, secondary and tertiary sources that are used in order to avoid novel interpretation of primary sources needs to specifically mention those sources in order to be acceptable as qualifiers in the way you claim that the Enc. Br. quote is. --Saddhiyama (talk) 12:18, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

WP:SYNTH is irrelevant in this context. I invite you to closely examine the policy you cite: Original synthesis refers specifically to novel interpretations of primary sources being made by Wikipedia editors. It is not applicable to the authors of primary sources themselves, who are being quoted directly and without further commentary. Since this misunderstanding forms the basis of your argument against the inclusion of these primary sources, your case is unsupported by relevant Wikipedia policies. 2A02:1810:519:9E00:3488:98:44AD:6A48 (talk) 15:45, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

So to summarise (since 2A02 doesn't seem inclined to discuss the actual issues at hand), the Enc. Br. quote is wrong usage of a tertiary source, the long blockquote without any qualifier is bordering on WP:COPYVIO violation (we are in essence copy-pasting Enc. Br. description to Wikipedia without any fair use rationale), the Anna Komnene quote is describing a single individual, and are describing traits not comparable to the other quotes. That leaves the Goffredo Malaterra primary source quote, which due to its shortness possibly could be kept, if it was preceded by a secondary source that mentioned his relevance in Norman historiography. In short the entire section is problematic and large portions needs to be removed while the rest can only be kept if proper secondary sources relevant to the subject are found and added. --Saddhiyama (talk) 12:32, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Please refrain from disparaging other editors, and keep this debate constructive.

The "actual issue at hand" is your contention that the usage of two primary sources in this article is unwarranted due to alleged issues of original synthesis and copyright. This has been addressed from the onset; your argument is rooted in an incorrect reading of WP:SYNTH and a questionable interpretation of WP:COPYVIO. Original synthesis specifically refers to Wikipedia editors drawing unwarranted conclusions from primary sources they use. It does not refer to the authors of these primary sources themselves, as you contended in your opening post, where you criticized the original content of these primary sources rather than how they were being used by fellow editors. You repeated this misconception shortly thereafter by referring to these primary sources as containing "exceptional claims". Secondly, the use of secondary & tertiary sources is effectively mandated by WP:PSTS, precisely to prevent any original synthesis of primary sources by Wikipedia editors. In short, your case is self-contradicting, and therefore puzzling.

After this was duly pointed out, your argumentation shifted towards a different issue: That a tertiary source such as the Britannica Encyclopedia does not qualify as a valid secondary source. In this, your argument does appear supported by relevant Wiki policies, and I will look for alternative secondary sources as time permits. Until then, this dispute is to be considered unresolved. 2A02:1810:519:9E00:3488:98:44AD:6A48 (talk) 15:45, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

There are no "alleged" WP:SYNTH issues, there are WP:SYNTH issues. I have not shifted my argumentation. The primary sources you have quoted en-masse is not acceptable as general statements about "characteristics & traits" which you infer from the title. The Anne Komnene quote is still going to be removed in a while if you fail to provide secondary sources verifiying it as a description that is normally accepted by scholars as being a description of Normans in general. The tertiary source is still going to be removed after you have had a suitable time to write some prose with general definitions that it can be used as a citation for (the quote itself is not acceptable and will need to be removed no matter what). Your misguided attempt of claiming that the tertiary source does somewhow neutralise the WP:SYNTH issues inherent in your primary source quotes is just that, a misguided attempt, and it does not adress the issues that I have pointed out repeatedly in this thread. I will give you a week to work the section into something that is not just a collection of sources, and not a violation of WP:SYNTH. Failing that it will be removed. --Saddhiyama (talk) 21:47, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

It's been conclusively demonstrated that your citation of WP:SYNTH is based on a misunderstanding of this policy guideline. WP:SYNTH refers specifically to how editors are to use primary sources. It makes no reference to the credibility of primary sources themselves, as you incorrectly assert. No commentary by editors is included with the primary sources, precluding issues of original synthesis. This has been pointed out on numerous occasions. No rebuttal has been forthcoming, merely reiterations of the original objection. You have shifted argumentation, as your opening post made no reference to issues pertaining to secondary & tertiary sources; this tangent was introduced after WP:SYNTH's lack of relevance was duly pointed out.

In summary, two consecutive days of a discourse rife with accusations has yet to result in compelling arguments in support of your position. This implies 3rd party mediation is becoming a necessity.

Beginning with your next post, I expect a clearly articulated, unambiguous rationale as to why these primary sources are allegedly unacceptable for use in the article even when a secondary source is provided for them (which constitutes your original case), together with citations of policies which 1) are directly relevant to the issue at hand and 2) unequivocally support your position in the matter. Your previous references to WP:SYNTH and WP:COPYVIO do not meet any of these criteria. Attempts to remove content from the article prior to resolution of the dispute will be reported, and this includes any removal of content past your unilaterally imposed deadline. 2A02:1810:519:9E00:E035:1E38:2742:547C (talk) 10:07, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Saddhiyama here - the quote from Anna is SYNTH because it's attempting to show that the characteristics of one person apply to the whole group. The other two quotes are not useful either. They need to go and frankly, the whole section needs to go as assigning "characterisitics and traits" to a group of people is just plain wrong. People vary and no serious scholarly source would assign such characteristics to an entire people any more. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:20, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

The disputed quotations refer explicitly to "traits", "characteristics" and "descriptions" of Normans as they existed in the era of their major conquests, and of a historical Norman leader who is being characterized relative to his contemporary Normans, among others. The section contains neither interpretations nor conclusions beyond these citations, precluding original research and synthesis. The notion that this content is in violation of WP:PSTS and WP:SYN seems fairly baseless from a policy perspective.

I've re-examined the contents of WP:PSTS, per Saddhiyama's request. At no point does the policy state primary sources must be accompanied by secondary sources at all times, or face removal. What it does state unambiguously is that secondary sources are a requirement once editors add interpretations or conclusions to primary sources. As stated, the section features no such interpretations or conclusions. There are but two bits of content he could refer to: The sentence of "The Norman's quick adaptability....", which is derived from a reliable secondary source (namely, ), and the section's title. Given that the former is in compliance with WP:PSTS, that just leaves the latter, which you alluded to as well.

It's difficult to grasp that an extensive dispute could emerge over a section title, but that appears to be what this argument has been reduced to. There is the option of altering the section's title, so that it may reflect the content of the sources more accurately, but that is the full extent of what this argument supports.

I must confess to being mistaken when I stated Saddhiyama's objection to the Britannica Encyclopedia quote is supported by policy. It is not. Since WP:PSTS makes it clear secondary sources are not required while interpretations of primary sources are excluded, the question of whether the Britannica quote is a secondary or tertiary source is irrelevant. The Britannica quotation is content cited from a reliable source (specifically, a monograph vetted by the scholarly community), and it establishes notability for the subject. There are no grounds for its removal in either WP:PSTS or WP:SYN.

At this juncture, I think we may draw the conclusion that the clause of WP:SYN Saddhiyama keeps citing, which supposedly mandates the removal of these primary sources a priori, does not exist. Indeed, his argument reaches, or implies, a conclusion not explicitly stated by WP:SYN. This is not without irony. 2A02:1810:519:9E00:A4EE:5A84:7797:50DF (talk) 09:12, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Since none of the problems pointed out here has been fixed (or even acknowledged by 2A02) I have deleted the section on account of misrepresentation of primary and tertiary sources and synth violations. --Saddhiyama (talk) 09:25, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Very sensible, thank you for taking care of that Saddhiyama. Nev1 (talk) 19:07, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

References

Recent changes...

As per Bold-Revert-Discuss, can we take this discussion to the talk page please? I'd welcome comments from both sides. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:27, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

These recent additions made by the anonymous user seem to amount to violations of both the WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE policies. The IP mentioned in one of the edit summaries that: "My undergrads read this". Take note that Wikipedia is not a place to advance theories which are not broadly supported by mainstream scholarship. Malik047 (talk) 17:49, 15 January 2016 (UTC)