Talk:Normans

Earl discussions

Very odd -- I posted a question, but it's gone.

Question for April -- DO you have a source for the Norman-Saxon relationship? IIRC, the differentiation was exaggerated in the 19th c. (evil French invaders vs good Englishmen), but most medievalists now agree that William and the Normans treated any Saxons who were loyal and paid their taxes on time as they treated anyone else -- with the exceptiion that their favorites sometimes got lands confiscated from previous Saxon holders. I just don't really understand how, when William came in at the end of a previous struggle for the throne, there could have been such unity...? HK

• Sorry, I was responding to the first version of your question when my browser crashed - must have done something evil. Anyhow, to answer your question... I'll throw some official sources at the question over the weekend, since that one was off the top of my head. However, I think (IIRC) the Mercian Rebellion in 1068 did stress the "Saxon-ness" of the rebels, as opposed to the "Norman-ness" of William I and company. There certainly were notable cultural differences, language being the most obvious. Politically, the situation was interesting, since the Saxons already had a feudalistic structure in place; the Normans just moved in at the top of it. They probably weren't "oppressive" any more than the Saxon lords had been... but I suspect that the difference in culture made for a great rallying-point for ambitious Saxons.

• I think of it as analogous to the situation when the English invaded Ireland. Prior to the English territorial claims, the Irish fought amongst themselves constantly (or Ulster fought against the other three provinces constantly, depending on who you listen to...) Quite a lot of Irish clans sided with the English during the various battles back and forth. Yet as the English became an identifiable class of "landlords", Irish nationalism grew into a remarkable fervor, and continues to this day. Now, Saxon nationalism does not continue to this day, so I agree that there was far greater Norman-Saxon integration than ever Anglo-Irish. Nonetheless, the identifiable differences of the Normans who made up the bulk of the "ruling class" would have been a quite significant target for Saxons to take aim at. -- April

Feudalistic structure? Sorry, but what is that when it's at home? IF you mean that Saxon lords bound followers to them with oaths, that's one thing, but it sounds like you mean something else... Otherwise, I think that the chief historians for the Rebellion are William of Jumiéges (Maybe) and Orderic Vitalis. I seem to remember Orderic as being somewhat moralistic and, despite being of Norman descent, very "pro-English." I know that, like most chroniclers of his day, muct be taken with a grain of salt. Morcar and Edwin had better reasons than "we Saxons" for rebelling -- they wanted a bigger cut!HK

• • I am not a professional historian, merely an interested amateur. But since you ask... as I recall from my college discussions, Saxon England had a hierarchy that, while not as rigid as the feudal systems which would later develop, still had many of the same relationships. See Domesday Book and Beyond: Three Essays in the Early History of England by F.W. Maitland. Thus, "feudalistic"... similar but not identical to a feudal system.

Not that Maitland is wrong, but he is largely outdated since Elizabeth Brown, Susan Reynolds, and others began refuting the existence of the feudal system. There's a general summation of present scholarship in the Feudalism article.

• • As for the Norman/Saxon division being significant... I draw your attention to the Murdrum fine. From an article by Geoff Boxell:

"Because of the high rate of homicide being suffered by the Normans and their French allies, King William legislated that all Frenchmen who settled in England after the invasion were to be in the king's peace and therefore he was their protector in an alien land. Its introduction was recognised at the time as being necessary due to the hatred of the Normans by the English and their attacks on them. The fine was a high one of 46 Marks."

I looked up Geoff Boxell. He is a novelist and amateur historian. This doesn't make him wrong, but the sources he uses are not quoted, and it is impossible to thus judge the article critically. Sources like Orderic are known to be biased, and without proper citation, how can we tell where he gets his information. Also, is he using his own translation or Chibnall's? It makes a difference.

• • You're right about Orderic Vitalis. In 1125, he wrote applauding English resistance to "William the Bastard" (Ecclesiastical Historii). But do note the distinction between "English" - meaning the pre-Norman, Saxon-dominated society - and the Normans. He saw them as distinct, opposed groups.

Again, he was a Norman. His mother was English, IIRC. He's writing with an axe to grind, based largely on the works of William of Julieges, who was also not especially neutral. There may have been a difference, but he may have exaggerated it...

• • From Stephen Muhlbergher's Medieval England:

"The English aristocracy of 1066, especially the middle ranks, was an old and comfortable aristocracy. The Normans, Bretons, and other Frenchmen who replaced them... were foreigners with no cultural connection to the people they ruled, and so they became even more of a military class than they might have been otherwise... The native English found their status correspondingly depressed... The geburs of 1066 became the villeins of 1086. Geburs had been free men, with some access to the public courts. They had the wergilds of free men, even if they were economically subservient. After the conquest, wergilds ceased to be used, and formerly free men with little property and heavy labor obligations found themselves to be villeins. Villeins -- a French word -- were considered unfree, and eventually were entirely excluded from the shire and hundred courts, at least when they had disputes with their lords... Sokemen and the lesser thegns also found themselves farther down the social scale..."

Couldn't find this in Muhlberger's website or his CV. I'm vaguely familiar with his work (recently read a review he'd written in the AHR), but couldn't find this in particular. Don't deny that it's true, or even what the passage says is true, but am also not at all convinced that the resentment was as clearly focused as the article now implies. Among the lower classes ( in a loose sense) of free- and partially free people, there may have been some resentment, but that's very hard to document. Among the more priveleged, there are tons of other reasons for resentment that may have less to do with Norman-Saxon cultural differences than with the fact that they'd lost lands and privileges.

I, on the other hand, would like to know how Muhlberger reconciles the international character of the higher ruling group in England with this supposed 'old and comfortable aristocracy' - just saying "especially the middle ranks" doesn't seem to cut it. What about all those Scandinavians? MichaelTinkler

• • I don't contest that this state of affairs didn't last all that long, in historical terms, with the Normans identifying themselves as Anglo-Normans and then just plain English. But for the first few generations after 1066, there does seem to have been residual ill-feeling between the cultural groups. -- April

I don't doubt that there was resentment, but at present the article reads much more like Robin Hood and Ivanhoe than what I remember from my coursework and reading. I'm just trying to avoid oversimplifications that verge on poular history ;-)HK

• • • Perfectly reasonable; I just hadn't, originally, intended to write an entire scholarly article. Perhaps we can boil down these discussions with some more sources, and present them in the article itself? The two or three lines that had been presented are woefully inadaquate, and from these discussions there's obviously quite a lot more to be said. -- April

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The 'French of Paris' was always an oddity in England. Anglo-Norman remained the standard in legal use so long as legal French survived. Anglo-Norman remained the literary standard as well for a time - Marie de France is a nice example of an author whose geographical origin is difficult if not impossible to sort out, but everyone calls her dialect Anglo-Norman. French was as regionally dialectalized as Middle English, and a preponderence of the later wave of French was west-French dialects. People had to make an effort to learn the French of Paris, which is why it is a joke for Chaucer. MichaelTinkler

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OK! I used all of the material above in an attempt to update the article. For any further discussions and refinements, I beg that those more familiar with the subject will take over! I'd especially appreciate it if people would add to the References list as appropriate - I put in those I knew about, but that's all. Hope this is a more "balanced" view. -- April

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Can anyone present any solid evidence for these alleged dukes of Normandy preceeding Rollo? All the more careful historical work I've read regards his background and ancestry as speculative, and I've never heard anyone suggest he had predecessors as duke. Loren Rosen

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The Norman Religion

The Norman Religion is based around "Family Hope" of the descendents of Eyestein who journeyed to Normandy France. What was their reason and what was the Hope? Firstly Eyestein was the Jarl of "Upsala" Sweden. His vision for his children was that they Grow Strong and Fast With Money ruling over Upsala this is all he Hoped. But in Sweden at that time how was one to procure trade of "Right" of any means to ensure percuniary profit was amassed for ones self? Was one to pray to the Gods for "Wisdom" or was one to pray to the "Family" for help? Was their any way you could step outside the "Upsala" economy in the sense that a modern economic society today could conceive? The answer is this. The King controlled all precuniary objectives. The son of a Jarl had to enlist in "Fighting" for "800" years through a "Deed" called the "Writ of Service" where by his Heart Mind and Body would be in service to the King during Life and then Death. An this was considered "fortunate" if he approved of your "Standard of Behaviour" and "Conduct" before his "Officers". However with Eyesteins childern they yearn for a "Greater" thing and that was "Hope Immaculate" because they were rich.

In 1066 Duke William took a vow which basically said: ""If I should died on this epic journey across thy way let no man understand my reason or see if I shall perish for it is too much to bear the whole idea of coming so close to certainty of greatest to look upon my life and then fail"" on the morning of advance to England so who did he pray for safe recovery of his life if all should fail. It wasnt his Ducal Realm but it was to the principality of its "Hope". Was this pray considered in any Court? Because it basically opens the question of who guides one over death. Did the Pope guide him to safety with his "Agreemento" or did the "Norse God's" guide him to their "Abandon" or was the "Religion" in Normandy sufficent to guide him against the "God" and "Lord" of Saxon England. In the end he died Horrible and was not cared for in "Burial Ritual" in Normandy. So what was the problem with the Normans and the Churches of God and the Lord if such a great King be so badly mistreated by his subjects?William I of England.

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Removal of "Normans in Russia"

(this is a new thread / discussion +)

[Dec. 1, 2004] Am I the one one who feels that the "Norman origins" part of this article is completely irrelevant and out of place? Who is Geoffrey Malaterra, and why should anyone give a damn what he thinks of the Normans? And Normans are Vikings who conquered Normandy in the 10th cent. and adopted Christianity and the customs and language of France. But not all Vikings are Normans. So Vikings that end up in KIEV are NOT Normans.

While the information on the "Varangians" may be interesting, it does not belong in a primary place in this article. The definition of what "Normans" are does not include any parallel groups, such as Vikings in Russia.

I am removing the current "The Normans in Russia" section, which reads only "See Kievan Rus' and Rus' (people)." This is not a valid section. The Kievan Rus article only mentions Normans once, in passing. "Varangians" just means "Vikings"; not all Vikings are Normans. Also replacing the irrelevant line about the " Varangians" in the opening paragraph. I am hoping the replacement will suit the author of those comments: "The Norsemen were quite similar to other Vikings, who were known as Danes in England and as Varangians in Russia. "

I would suggest that the original author of the "Varangian" material to this article could add the following to the entry for "Varangians":

" See Kievan Rus' and Rus' (people) "

I am leaving the "Geoffrey Malaterra" quote in for now: I would like to see some discussion here of what value, if any, this item adds to the encyclopedia entry for "Normans".

p.s. Can anyone explain this thing on "Norman Religion" above? It sounds like the ravings of a crazy person.

- Liberty Miller

Disney

Do you know that the origin of the name "Disney" is supposed to come from a small town in Normandy. A knight from Isigny (d'Isigny) followed William the Conqueror. And has had a successfull lignage (lineage). Gwalarn 22:16, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Map

I have some objections to the map. I think it should include about 75% of Ireland, as the invasion of Ireland in 1169 is usually considered a Norman/Anglo-Norman/Cambro-Norman invasion. Many invaders were French-speaking Normans such as Raymond le Gros. His descendents today are the Redmonds, whose surname comes from the Gaelic MacReamann (meaning son of Raymond). Other Norman names include Fitzgerald (fitz from French "fils" meaning son).

Article rename?

What is the reasoning for renameing the article? "Normans" is a more common description used throughout Wikipedia. If you look at the "Source" for the article, there is an official European Commision website on the history of the Normans, the website is called "The Normans, a European peoples". Thats about as official as it gets, this is what the people call themselves. There is much more common usage for "The Normans" than "Norman people". A redirect page could be created for "Norman people". Currently, almost all of the 100 or so links to this page use "Normans" Stbalbach 03:09, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Article renamed to "Normans". This was the original article name when it was created in 2001 (one of the oldest on Wikipedia) by JHC, who has a PhD in medieval history. There was no discussion about renameing the article, there has been no discussion in 4 years about it, and there is a strong historical and contemporary precendant to call it "Normans", and the 'What Links Here' shows %95 of Wikipedians use "Normans" and not "Norman people". Google search would support it as well. Stbalbach 18:32, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"Normans were" ????

Sorry if I'm boring but "The Normans were the people who gave their name to Normandy" is a little offensive. I prefer "The Normans are the people who gave their name to Normandy" We exist thx!! --89.226.75.34 (talk) 23:03, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Residents of Normandy - a province of France - exist. But what historically are "the Normans" are long extinct, assimilated into the greater French nation. You have your heritage and your ancestry, but culturally and linguistically, sorry, the Viking-conqueror-settlers are ... gone.104.169.39.45 (talk) 12:07, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

"Modern residents of Normandy are just French" is repeated several times on this Talk page and it is false. Only mainland Normandy became a province of France. Insular Normandy (ie the Channel Islands) has never been a part of France, nor a part of England. Jersey people consider themselves Norman, speak a dialect of Norman, toast the Duke of Normandy and until recently "Ma Normandie" was still the national anthem. We aren't French. 93.191.203.136 (talk) 11:05, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Slightly misleading sentences added to the lead on April 9th, 2024

To the anonymous author of the following addition: "The Normans adopted the culture and language of the French, while they continued the martial tradition of their Viking ancestors as mercenaries and adventurers. In the 11th century, Normans from the duchy conquered England and Sicily."

The EB article you cite begins by defining "Normans" as the Viking settlers of Normandy and their descendants. But the term should explicitly include the larger population of Franks who continued to live in the duchy. Those also came to be known as Normans whether or not they had Viking ancestry. This omission betrays the implicit assumption of Searle's "tabula rasa" hypothesis, which indeed pervades the rest of the EB article and does not reflect the scholarly consensus.

Your juxtaposition of Viking-age settlements and 11th-century conquests is equally misleading. By reducing this extended interval to two short sentences in the very first paragraph, you are conveying the notion that Norman conquests were the continuation of an ill-defined "Viking martial tradition". In reality they must be understood within the greater context of French expansion in the High Middle Ages. This is especially apparent from the Georges Duby article referenced in the wiki. It is also illustrated by the fact that William the Conqueror's army was assembled from half a dozen French provinces, making it one of the largest French expeditions of the 11th century. Similar examples include the capture of Barbastro (1064), William's hasty return to England (1085), the siege of Tudela (1087), and the First Crusade -- all of which involved the cooperation of troops from many regions of France, including Normandy.

You've also misconstrued what the EB better describes as the characteristic traits of their "piratical Viking ancestors", namely "a love of fighting" accompanied by "cunning and outrageous treachery". To link such dispositions to the Norman-led conquest of England some 150 years later, as the EB does with a sleight of hand, is far from trivial and at best speculative. Especially when 1) most Norman barons were sedentary, landed aristocrats initially opposed to William's expedition and 2) they viewed the Conquest as a civilizing enterprise supportive of the church, not as the resurgence of Viking adventurism. As such this connection should not feature in the wiki lead where the required brevity does not allow for nuance. I have rephrased your sentence accordingly by retaining those bits from the EB article which can easily be supported by the latest authorities such as David Bates, Pierre Bouet etc.

I hope this makes sense, and I'm happy to provide additional references if necessary. But please consider engaging in thoughtful discussion rather than reverting my changes in the meantime. There's no need to turn the lead into another replica of the EB. Jouvencel (talk) 00:13, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

User:Jouvencel, your edit further expanded on "adopted the culture of the French", which is not something I am opposed to, but altogether removed the part on "the traits they retained of their Viking ancestors etc etc". You could phrase it differently or quote EB verabtim if there is a technical issue in the way I phrased it. The intro talks extensively about the the adoption of local culture, what lacks is some mention on what they kept of their ancestors.2A01:E11:17:40B0:D8DF:428C:3F9C:908D (talk) 10:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Since there are sources covering both, it should not be an issue doing so on this article as well. One does not need to exclude the other. TylerBurden (talk) 19:33, 6 November 2024 (UTC)