Jump to content

Talk:Normans/Archive 1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

Norwegians(A Northmen's fief in France being known as Normandy)

Wiglaf thinks that Normans are just anybody who lived in Normandy. I have explained that Norwegians gave the name to Normandy, regardless of who lived there. This is a debate that goes back to French and German ideals of identity. The French believe that Bretons are French, but the Germans believe that Bretons are Bretons and French are French. This is the sense of the discussion that has been going on between Wiglaf and myself, but I am not sure he gets it yet. Both Saxon and Dane constituent parts of England have considered themselves to be their own individual and specific breed, but they registered as English for official functions. The reason being, is that said folks could not claim to be citizens of Saxony or Denmark. The Wessex and Danelaw regions had been subsumed within England, but there is a sense of provincial attachments to ancestry within the framework of the state. For instance; New France, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, New England, New Netherland, New Sweden and New Spain were named after their chief colonists and yet there were many more people who had been involved in it all. Even within Wiglaf's own country of Sweden, it is named for the Svear and not the Geats. There are Finnic and Gothic people in Svealand, but Svealand is named for the Swedes and not the Finns or Goths. I wonder how this can be a serious problem with academics, although know it is common to the lay person. The Seine Valley had been plundered and attacked by many Scandinavian peoples, but only the Northmen(Norrmen) of Norway were populated there enough to warrant a name after their population size and involvement. William the Conqueror and all his English descendents have ancestry through his paternal line to the fjordlands of Norway, not Denmark in any recognisable capacity. It is orthdoxically accepted that the Danelaw was a Danish venture, although there were Norse and Swedes present in the conquest among the Irish Sea in the royalties of East Anglia and Jorvik. Nevertheless, it was called "Danelaw" for very good reasons. How many Danes made it to a Mediterranean Crusade, compared to the Norwegians? Both Norse/Normans made it to Normandy and Sicily, with marriage ties to the Norman kings of England. Where was Danish power in 954 and 1066 but on the side of the Danish and English?

Do you know how long it has taken for the English of Saxon and Danish descent to be represented by their own kind? Since 1066 and later addition in the failure of both Sweyn Estridson and Canute IV of Denmark, only upon the Houses of Windsor and Mountbatten(or Mountbatten-Windsor) has this been corrected for the residential ethnic population. It is a mistake to blur the orientation and loyalty of peoples in such circumstances, which is why I am severely offended that Wiglaf and a few others have chosen to rebuff the logical conclusion about the primary Norwegian element of Normandy. Surely there is merit to this type of discussion: The House of Oldenburg derives from Ruestringen being a fief of the exiled and first Christian King of Denmark who was baptised in Mainz; Harald Klak and granted by Emperor Louis the Pious in 826. After this occurance, Saint Ansgar led his first mission to Denmark and this is how the Church of Denmark had its earliest roots. This was also the first official political relationship between the Danes and Saxons, preceding the Danish colonisation and takeover of England by 25 years at least. Why had the Anglo-Saxons and Danes bonded together in face of mutual foes such as the Kings of Dublin, Kings of Norway and the Duke of Normandy if they were not all Norwegians rallied against them? Anglo-Saxons and Danes had a common origin on and around Jutland, but none of this applied between them and the Norse whose origins lied with the Swedes via the Ynglings. The House of Olaf was no favoured by the Danish. Now I know that some editors aer merciless pussyfooters about identifying things which are controversially labeled trivial. I ask such people to provide evidence of why they should keep certain clarifiable subjects in a state of limbo and that they should forever remain a mystery to the lay reader. I have been asked to repeat my sources by Wiglaf, but he had not given his sources which could refute my purpose in declaring what I do. So "come all ye faithful" block-addicts and revert-spree warriors, because you know the pleasure of adrenalin and testosterone competitions. Talk:Viking#Upholding_Controversial_Discrepencies TheUnforgiven 20:55, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

This is not true, just because name look a like, dosent it make them norwegians. Theres is alot of sources that the founder og Normandy is from Denmark. Just like Dudo states. Some place names in Normandy are from Skaane, Sweden. And there is founds from Normandy in Denmark. So i don´t think that Normans were pure Norwegians. Most of the Normans were Natives.

Disambig status

I don't feel that it's a POV-problem or anything, but redirecting Norman straight here doesn't feel obvious to me. Charlie Norman and Norman, Oklahoma are of course not terribly notable, but Norman language seems just as obvious and relevant to reach when searching for "Norman".

Peter Isotalo 10:33, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

The test is to look at the "what links here". If there are a bunch of articles that link that shouldnt... If not, then this is the primary meaning. Or, create an article Norman (disambiguation). Stbalbach 14:08, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
This seems as somewhat backwards thinking. Our own links can always be corrected and do not seem all that relevant. The issue is where people searching for "Norman" should wind up.
Peter Isotalo 18:10, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

General comment

Does it strike anyone as odd that this talk page is about twice as large as the article on the Normans? For such an important group of people, I find this article lacking in many areas. The part on Italy, Sicily and the Mediterranean is, well, let's be honest, it's not quite up to standard. Sicily was invaded by the Normans in 1061 (5 years before the more famous invasion), it took 30 years to overcome the Saracens completely in what is a pretty small island. At the height of the Norman Kingdom of Sicily (yes it reached incredible heights) the population of Palermo was around 300,000 (that of Rome was 30,000) and the tax revenues of Palermo alone dwarfed those of all of Norman England. Also, the Kingdom of Sicily actually included half the Italian peninsular - it was a sizeable, politically influential and incredibly affluent kingdom. But does this article give a sense of the relative importance of the two kingdoms? or the many relationships they forged? No, there is no sense of that at all. Am I being POV? My name ends in a vowel - I guess I must be! Sorry lads, this needs extra work! --pippudoz - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 06:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Expansion

This article needs some expansion (all sections) and a little cleaning up. I'll do what I can. Srnec 05:45, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Source?

In the list of sources is included: Muhlbergher, Stephen, Medieval England. First, I assme this is meant to be Steven Muhlberger, professor at Nipissing? (Note mangled spelling.) If so, I'm not familiar with this title by him -- nor is it included in the publications list at his own home page at [1] -- nor in the Library of Congress catalog. Can the original poster or anyone else substantiate this title? --Michael K. Smith 03:06, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Crusades

We need a section on Norman involvement in the Crusades. Srnec 04:41, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Using the word nationalist

To Comanche cph: Your edit summary (rv user:Inge ´s nationalist edit. There is no sources telling about Norwegians went to Normandy. And there is not found one single item in norway from normandy.) is to say the least a bit pussling. I would like to remind you that you have already been blocked once for using the word nationalist to describe fellow wikipedians. When it comes to your statement regarding the lack of sources telling about Norwegians in Normandy I am even more pussled as we have been engaging in a long strenous debate regarding a source stating that the founder of Normandy was Norwegian. Inge 13:31, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no sources telling about that norwegians in Normandy OR France. The "hrolf gange" theory IS remarked. But that's an hole anorther story. That's has nothing to do with this issue.

Please tell me. What source do you have for write there was norwegians in Normandy. Please don't rewrite history without sources. --Comanche cph 13:57, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


Are you telling me that you don't recognise the Rolf-Ganger source when it comes to this article? We all know you don't like that one, but still you have to accept it even in articles other than Rollo of Normandy. If you won't accept that source as sufficient for claiming a Norwegian precense in Normandy I don't see the point in giving you the attention or satisfaction of debating this same issue over and over again. Inge 14:10, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I have always acepted the icelandic hrolf ganger as a theory. But i really don't wanna take thatdiscussion up with you again.

But what has hrolf ganger to do with what the population in normandy was? I ask you again. Witch sources do you have for your rewrite? and why do you write "OR"?

This seems like a new pro-norwegian history rewrite from user:Inge. --Comanche cph 14:17, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Do you still think that the Icelandic saga states that Hrolf Ganger was from Iceland? It does in fact state he was from Norway. Please take a read through of the previous debates we have had and save us all some time. Inge 14:30, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Inge, he fled from Iceland and was a jarl(or son of a jarl -cant remember). He was born in norway as it tells. I really don't care, if we say norway or iceland. But sorry that i wrote Iceland and not Norway as there he was born, according to the theory. But please don't change the subject.

Now i ask you for the third time, after still not have getting any answer:

Witch sources do you have for your rewrite? And why do you write "OR"? --Comanche cph 15:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Still waiting for answar from Inge. --Comanche cph 09:34, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes that's probably right. But Norse doesn't mean Norwegians. And this is a historian from 1952. There is different sources and founds who point at Danish.

There is no sources or founds of Norwegians in. So what is this rewrite based on? Only user:Inge may know that, since it's this user who has wrote it. --Comanche cph 18:13, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how you expect to be taken seriously when you admit that Hrolf Ganger (which is most likely the founder of Normandy) was from Norway and still state that there are no sources for Norwegians being in Normandy. Inge 18:24, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


"don't see how you expect to be taken seriously when you admit that Hrolf Ganger (which is most likely the founder of Normandy) was from Norway"

First of all this "edit of yours" has nothing to do with the Gange hrolf. And this is not "most likely". And if it was him, there is still no sources for norwegians. The Hrolf Gange theory you talk about by the Icelandic historian, tells that he was banished from Norway by the king (don't remember the name). And lived in Iceland.

"and still state that there are no sources for Norwegians being in Normandy."

But what are the sources??? Then tell me!! And why did you wrote "OR"?? And how many times do i need to repeat myself? --Comanche cph 18:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This is it. Just say it. There are no sources for this rewrite of your. I revert it back as it was. Thanks. --Comanche cph 17:48, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

If you read this article you will find a source stating that Norwegians were present in Normandy. Inge 19:16, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

What are the sources??? Why do you link to Rollo? I guess you are pointing to the the Hrolf gange theory.

I repeat again: The Hrolf Gange=Rollo theory you pointing to, tells that he was BANISHED from Norway by the king there. Therefore he lived in Iceland, and sailed from Iceland. -as THAT Icelandic theory tells about. -But why pointing Rollo? This article is not about Rollo, but about the Normans general. So i ask again. What are the sources for Norwegians there?

Please don't keep rewriting articles on wikipedia, if you don't know the sources. --Comanche cph 22:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

We can have a agrement like this?: .....population of Neustria and Danish Vikings (some possible from other parts of Scandinavia), who began....

--Comanche cph 23:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

In general I am in favour of seeking compromise on wikipedia. But in the case of user comanche cph I am in doubt whether it is not best to ignore him. He has shown over and over again that he has very little knowledge about the topics he are debating. He behaves as some strange sort of Danish nationalist, who seem convinced that all Norwegian and Icelandic users on wikipedia are part of some great conspiracy to rob Denmark of its proper place in medieval history. I can't see myself why it should be very important for anyone whether Rollo and the vikings in Normandie in general were from present day Denmark or Norway, at a time when the very idea of Denmark or Norway was hazy at best, and there was very little difference between Danes and Norwegians, and I expect very few other wikipedians care much either. What we care for is to have wikipedia present the facts, as closely as possible, according to the scholarly consensus. And the scholarly consensus is that the vikings in Normandie came from Scandinavia, probably both Denmark and Norway. --Barend 18:15, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
As someone who often writes about Sicilian history, I have to confess that it matters little to me which part of Scandinavia they came from (predominantly). They were of Viking and/or Norse descent (which for me is a good enough description) and within a century they were thoroughly latinised and christian. That pretty much sums it up. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 23:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

No matter who is or is called a nationalist. We need to have a source for Norwegians was Normans to. As far i have known. Norwegians settled Ireland, Scotland and Iceland. While Danes settled England and France. To Barend and Inge: You can't just claim your Guessing here. --80.196.116.38 12:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear anonymous user. It is not true that it is merely myself and Inge who are trying to put Danish and Norwegian in the article. In fact, comanche cph is the only one who has so far tried to remove Norwegian. If he, or you, want the article to say that all the Normans came from Denmark, then you will have to find a source saying that. Our sources for saying there were Norwegians among the normans have been exhaustively discussed on the discussion page for Rollo of Normandy. However, since, as I said, it matters very little whether they came from Denmark or Norway, at a time when the very notion of "Denmark" or "Norway" was hazy at best, I have now written that they came from "Scandinavia". This should be a compromise we all can live with. --Barend 07:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


This is NOT Hrolf Gange. Look at what the Hrolf Gange Theory you pointing to say. I have wrote it two times now, if you didnt know it. He was a guy who was banished from Norway and lived in Iceland. This article is not about ONE guy! In the fact you are the only one to out Norwegian in anywhere without source. We HAVE sources that the majority was Danes. We have NO facts for Norwegians. The old sources and writings about Danes, from the Bayeux tapestry, (Harold klak king of Jutland came with men to Normandy). That the Danes from Danelagen fled to Normandy. Anglo coins found in Denmark. Far biggest transport ships found in Denmark, used for trading primarily in Normandy say historians. You Norwegians say it doesnt matter where they was from. But i can see it matter for you to write who was Norwegians in Norway article. And you keep changing it back to Norwegians, while there is NO SOURCE for it.

You need source if you wanna rewrite this! http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Normans&diff=27008966&oldid=26282705 --Comanche cph 10:28, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

If you wanna claim that Norwegians was Normans to. You will have to cite sources. --Comanche cph 11:33, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Again: Sources have been sited. If you don't want to axcept that is fine, but you still have to follow the rules. Inge 11:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Where!? Please you know as much as me that there is no sources for your claiming. --Comanche cph 11:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

This map from History of Danish pretty much tells it to. Who was where. Norway first apopted Danish language in the Kalmar union(500 to 1000 years later). --Comanche cph 16:49, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

This is the approximate extent of Old Norse and related languages in the early 10th century. The red area is the distribution of the dialect Old West Norse; the orange area is the spread of the dialect Old East Norse. The pink area is Old Gutnish and the green area is the extent of the other Germanic languages with which Old Norse still retained some mutual intelligibility.

I would recommend that user comanche cph try to get some knowledge about medieval history before he starts writing about things he obviously knows nothing about. Although it has all been said thousands of time before, here we go again:
- Comanche's representation of the story of Gange Rolf is wrong. Neither Historia Norvegiae nor Snorri Sturluson say anything about Gange Rolf going to Iceland. Comanche has obviously never even read any of these sources, as he keeps misrepresenting them.
- Norway did not adopt Danish language in the Kalmar union. I am not sure what point comanche is trying to make here, but he is wrong, anyway. The Kalmar union in 1397 did not change the language of Norway. It is, however, a fact that the old norse language, spoken throughout both Norway and Denmark during the viking age, was commonly referred to as donsk tunga (Danish tongue) - as you can see in the article on old Norse language.
- Comanche tries to make it seem as if it is Inge and myself who are trying to change this article, when in fact, what is happening is that it is comanche who is trying to change the article to claim that all the vikings in Normandie were Danish, a claim which is unverifiable, and goes against several sources and the general consensus on the question.
- I applaud the extreme patience being shown by Inge in trying to reach a compromise with comanche, but I must say I am not sure whether a user so obviously lacking in knowledge about the topic he is arguing about deserves the effort. --Barend 18:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

This Barend say is fake

Barend and Inge have NO SOURCE for claiming that Norwegians was a part of the population in Normandy.

No matter what Barend say about Hrolf Ganger. Is that the only one out of two teory's about Rollo of Normandy, while the other and older from Normandy tells about a Dane. The funny thing with this is this article is not about Rollo. So Barend and Inge try to use the single Hrolf Ganger teory as a source for Norwegians was Normans to. :D I repeat: That unrelated source Barend pointing to. Tells that the guy was Banished from Norway. -That is the one and only source he/they will use for Norwegians was a part of the Norman population.

"- Norway did not adopt Danish language in the Kalmar union. I am not sure what point comanche is trying to make here, but he is wrong, anyway. The Kalmar union in 1397 did not change the language of Norway. It is, however, a fact that the old Norse language, spoken throughout both Norway and Denmark during the viking age, was commonly referred to as donsk tunga (Danish tongue) - as you can see in the article on old Norse language."

" Norway did not adopt Danish language" Maybe you should check up a little on History of Norway.

These qoute's is from Norwegian language. In short; Books in Norway was Danish doing the kalmar union.

"from 1536 Norway was subordinated under the Kingdom of Denmark. Danish became the commonly written language among Norway's literate class. Spoken Danish was gradually adopted by the urban elite, first at formal occasions, and gradually a more relaxed variety was adopted in everyday speech." and "The name of the Danish language in Norway was a topic of hot dispute through the 19th century. Its proponents claimed that it was a language common to Norway and Denmark, and no more Danish than Norwegian. The proponents of Landsmål thought that the Danish character of the language should not be concealed. In 1899 the neutral name Riksmål was adopted, meaning national language like Landsmål. The name "Riksmål" is sometimes interpreted as "state language", but this meaning is secondary at best, refer Danish rigsmål from where the name was borrowed."

Quote Barend: "It is, however, a fact that the old Norse language, spoken throughout both Norway and Denmark during the viking age, was commonly referred to as donsk tunga (Danish tongue) - as you can see in the article on old Norse language."

This is funny. Of course Norway and Denmark both spoked Old Norse. Norway spoked old west Norse while Denmark spoked old East Norse. Two different language! as that link you pointing to, say. But the language's is also related to North Germanic and Germanic and Indo-European. So according to you all in Europe spoken the same language?? :D

What i'm trying to tell you. As you also can see on the articles you linking to. Is that Norway and Danish language NOT was the same language. Different rune script to.


"claim that all the vikings in Normandie were Danish, a claim which is unverifiable, and goes against several sources and the general consensus on the question."

No Normans was a mix of a population in Neustria and Danes. -As it also was written BEFORE the two Norwegians started to change this article.

"goes against several sources and the general consensus on the question"

I have asked you like 10 times. GIVE US THEN THE SEVERAL SOURCES!!! WHERE ARE THEY??? --Comanche cph 21:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you should read this Wikipedia:Cite your sources. --Comanche cph 21:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear Comanche, your last entry really reveals yor lack of knowledge of medieval history. I say again: you have not been behaving in a manor worthy of a serious response, still we have treated your entries here with as much respect as possible. But again you reveal you lack of knowledge of the subject you are trying to make authoritative statements about. Your contributions here are not positive and thus not wanted. I suggest you find something better to do with your time, such as learning about medieval history.Inge 01:48, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


I KNOW THE HISTORY. PLEASE INGE JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION WITH BOLD TEXT!!! Is it to hard for you?? maybe because you know i'm right. -

i say again. You are the one who has changed it. That's why you need source for it!

And stop talking about respect, you probably don't know what that is either. --Comanche cph 07:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Not that I think this will end the discussion, but here are sources:

--Barend 07:41, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible that kissing cousins could dislike each other so intensely? :-) πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 07:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Again you keep linking to the Hrolf Gange teory and to a privat homepage. JUST FORGET HIM. This is not about him. Now start to see if there should be any source of Norwegians in Normandy. And if you look at Normandie's own homepage you will see that they call him Rollon, not Gynge Gange Hrolf.

You probaly think that Norwegians (Nordmænn) named it to Normandie. That's why you so intensely think that Norwegians was Normans, i guess. But again you are wrong. Normandie got the name by the Franks.

You need sources if you gonna rewrite history to Norwegians was Normans to. --Comanche cph 14:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I doubt that this is likely to convince those with entrenched views but it may help to enlighten bemused bystanders. Histoire de la Normandie by Jean Mabire and Jean-Robert Ragache, Paris, 1986, ISBN 2704807035, sets out a view of multiple-sourced Viking settlement (in Chapter 3): "Il est déjà difficile de distinguer entre apports francs, saxons et scandinaves. Essayer de discerner entre les Vikings ceux qui viennent de Norvège et ceux qui arrivent du Danemark ne paraît pas facile. En fait la Normandie orientale et centrale serait plutôt d’origine anglo-danoise. Un Cauchois d’Yvetot ou un Augeron d’Orbec habitent un pays fortement marqué par l’influence de ceux qui sont partis du Jutland et ont remonté la vallée de la Seine, apres avoir vécu souvent outre-mer dans le pays du Danelaw. La Normandie occidentale serait plutôt iro-norvégienne. Un Cotentinais de Barfleur ou de Nehou s’accroche à une terre colonisée par des Vikings ayant effectué la grande boucle, parfois sur plusieurs générations, par les Shetlands, les Orcades, les Hébrides et I’Irlande. Valcanville, dans le Val de Saire, ou Digulleville, dans La Hague, évoquent leurs fondateurs Valkan ou Dikuil, noms d’origine celtique, mais qui peuvent avoir été adoptes par des Scandinaves ayant vécu dans les îles de l'Ouest. Typique reste le nom de Nial, qui a donné Néel en Cotentin, et dont l’origine est celto-norvégienne.". Basically it is suggested that eastern Normandy i.e. Haute-Normandie was primarily settled by Danes and Anglo-Danes, whereas the Cotentin was settled in greater concentration by Celto-Norwegians, mostly arrived from Ireland, as well as by Danes and Anglo-Danes. For what it's worth, and bearing in mind that Jean Mabire was a noted proponent of Normannité, people can take this as further ammunition - or should we not rather declare a ceasefire? Man vyi 15:37, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the interesting input. I think I have said all I have to say on this talk page, and I hereby withdraw to the rank of bemused bystander myself. I will continue to revert destructive edits to the article, though. --Barend 15:40, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


Hmm. See that could be a source we could use. But i doubt that there was many Anglo's with Danes rather Saxons. But why and from what did that guy think there was a norwegian-celtic population in west? --Comanche cph 15:45, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


lol Barend you haven't said anything. Just klap i --Comanche cph 15:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

  • If, as seems likely, their accounts relate to the same person, he was known in the north as Hrolf the Ganger,...The saga makes him a Norwegian, but Danish scholars have sought to prove him a Dane, and more recently the cudgels have been taken up for his Swedish origin. To me the Norwegian theory seems on the whole the most probable, being based on a trustworthy saga and corroborated by other incidental evidence. Yet, however significant of Rollo's importance it may be that three great countries should each claim him as its own...it is futile to fit the inadequate evidence into one or another theory. The important fact is that Norway, Denmark, and even more distant Sweden, all contributed to the colonists who settled in Normandy under Rollo and his successors, and the achievements of the Normans thus become the common heritage of the Scandinavian race.

    Haskins, Charles Homer (1916). The Normans in European History. London: Constable. pp. p. 29. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help)

  • As they expanded their authority west from the Seine region, Rollo's successors incorporated other Viking groups which had taken up residence in the Bessin and Cotentin. These appear to have been primarily Danish, some of whom had come to France via England, where King Alfred had made a treaty with Danish settlers a generation earlier. Rollo and his group, on the other hand, had come from Norway, where Rollo was remembered in the sagas as Rolf the Ganger: 'a great Viking: he was so big that no steed could bear him, and he therefore walked wherever he went'. An eleventh-century Norman charter indicates that Rollo was known as 'Rolphus' in Normandy as well.

    Harper-Bill, Christopher (2003). A Companion to the Anglo-Norman World. Suffolk: Boydell Press. pp. p. 22. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

  • On the authority of the Heimskringla, he is supposed to have been a Norwegian, namely that Ganger-Rolf who was the exiled son of Ragnvald, earl of Möre, the trusty liegeman and comrade of King Harald Fairhair, and it is chronologically quite possible that Ganger-Rolf should have played a part in these operations in the country of the West Franks. The difficulty about this identification is that the Norman chroniclers themselves do not seem to have known the name Ganger-Rolf, or even Rolf alone, and the name that they do cite, Rollo, is better derived from ON. Hrollaugr or Hrolleif rather than from Rolf. But this in itself would not disprove the Norwegian nationality of Rollo, and as guarantee of his Danish origin there is nothing better than the always-to-be-suspected word of that very indifferent historian Dudo of St. Quentin. On the other hand, in St. Olaf's time, according to the Heimskringla, a Duke of Rouen, a descendant of Rollo, declared that he well remembered his kinship with the chiefs of Norway; while Saxo, the persistent panegyrist of the Danes and a writer to whom Dudo's book was known, makes no boast that Rollo was of Danish ancestry. It must be held, therefore, as most likely, though not proven with certainty, that Rollo was Norwegian...

    Kendrick, T.D. (1930). A History of the Vikings. New York: Charles Schribner's Sons. pp. pp. 220-1. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help)

All other sources i've found so far punt with Scandinavian or Norse Viking. Hope the above helps.EricR 17:05, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Much national pride has been involved in trying to determine, without complete success, the origin of Rollo himself—was he Danish? or Norwegian? or possibly Swedish? No document of the settlement survives, and its terms can be inferred only from later documents...in 911 Rollo, whose place of origin is not really of consequence, led a Danish army to the town of Chartres, which he besieged. The siege proved unsuccessful, and Rollo’s army suffered a major defeat.

    Logan, F. Donald (1992). The Vikings in History. London: Routledge. pp. p.134. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help)EricR 18:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

  • The bulk of the settlers were men. They came principally from Denmark, although some came from the northeast of England and others from Ireland, a conclusion suggested by a sophisticated analysis of known names...Of course, new settlers were still coming in the 930s, some of them still pagan, and at one moment in the early 940s Normandy almost reverted to paganism...

    Ibid., p.135.EricR 18:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Sections

I would propse restructuring the article between the sections "Normans and Normandy" and "See also". The sections on the various regions of Norman influence should be put in chronological order, like so:

  • Italy
  • East
  • England
  • Wales
  • Crusades
  • Scotland
  • Ireland

I propose this here becaus it seems like a major restructuring and I don't know if putting some of the more important sections lower down on the page is the best idea. Also, as can be garnered from reading the sections, Wales could be placed before England and Crusades first of all. Srnec 18:46, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

New Assessment Criteria for Ethnic Groups articles

Hello,

WikiProject Ethnic groups has added new assessment criteria for Ethnic Groups articles.

Your article has automatically been given class=stub and reassess=yes ratings. [corrected text: --Ling.Nut 22:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)] Don't feel slighted if the article is actually far more than a stub -- at least in the beginning, all unassessed articles are being automatically assigned to these values.

-->How to assess articles

Revisions of assessment ratings can be made by assigning an appropriate value via the class parameter in the WikiProject Ethnic groups project banner {{Ethnic groups}} that is currently placed at the top of Ethnic groups articles' talk pages. Quality assessment guidelines are at the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team's assessment system page.

Please see the Project's article rating and assessment scheme for more information and the details and criteria for each rating value. A brief version can be found at Template talk:Ethnic groups. You can also enquire at the Ethnic groups Project's main discussion board for assistance.

Another way to help out that could be an enjoyable pastime is to visit Category:WikiProject Ethnic groups, find an interesting-looking article to read, and carefully assess it following those guidelines.

Thanks!
--Ling.Nut 20:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Norman piety

Re: this sentence:

The legendary piety of the Normans was exercised in religious wars long before the First Crusade carved out a Norman principality in Antioch.

Which someone changed to zeal. The sentence and paragraph only makes sense if the Normans were pious. I don't see a problem with it, a few source could be found to that end.[4][5] Granted they may have used the cover of piety to justify conquest, but then one could say the same thing about many "just wars", was there ever a truly pious conquerer? -- Stbalbach 18:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I changed it to religious zeal -- Stbalbach 01:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Normans from the Danelaw went back to England

I think the Wessex repulsion theory makes sense, in terms of pre-Norman past and the momentum that drove England to Mediterranean Europe, on the old Viking (and generally Teutonic) trail of pillaging-cum-crusading. It is essentially why the sack of Constantinople happened, is it not? Nowhere is it in the article, even as an alternative to the "straight-from-Scandinavia" theory. Penguin Books states the ex-Danelaw foundation of Normandy, while also describing some of them from the Viking outposts in Ireland. For instance, Ragnar Lodbrok is mentioned as involved in both the Siege of Paris and the Northumbrian Civil War. Penguin states that the Vikings were shit out of luck in their depredations of the British Isles, but that the Carolingians were infighting and the local counts were inept (except the Capetians, of course). This would naturally make Normandy no different to England, than Brittany is to Wales. Savignac 02:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Crappy Article

B-Class? Right. This article is TERRIBLE, and useless for the general reader. The opening paragraphs are incomprehensible. The word "historiography" does not belong in the first section of an article for general readership. And 'the name is adapted from the name "Northmen"' versus 'should not be confused with the Northmen'. What the hell? I would like a basic article explaining who they are, where they lived, where they came from, what they did, and so on. In English. Is that too much to ask? I'd write it myself except I DON'T KNOW -- that's why I'm here. I'd say more like D-Class. 216.231.46.147 (talk) 00:15, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I rewrote the lead. The rest of the article seems pretty good, though. Is there anything else that needs urgent fixing for comprehensibility? Srnec (talk) 06:26, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Map cleanup needed

The labels on the map are not in English. -- Beland (talk) 04:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Early history

It seems to me that the article has a major omission in not covering the early Norman history. Rollo is not even mentioned (what's up with that?) and there is nothing about the history of the Normans in the tenth century. Nsk92 (talk) 03:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

You are very right. This article is a patchwork; you've found some missing patches. Srnec (talk) 04:48, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Romance languages?

How did a people(s) "originating from Scandinavia" end up speaking a Romance language?! --84.249.253.201 01:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

By moving to lands where Romance was spoken. Same way people "originating from Italy" ended up speaking a Germanic language when they immigrated to New York and learned English. Srnec 01:03, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

More precisely, most people from Scandinavia were men and they married "more Danico" local women, who spoke a Romance language. Nortmannus (talk) 01:02, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

"Normand"

this is an English doc, not a Norman/d source

hey why did you removed my "Normand"?

Don't you know "Normandie" ("Normandy" in English) comes from "Normand" (not "Norman" in English)? Without the (mute) "D" it would has been "Normany" (aka "Normanie") AFAIK right?.

The Normand talked in Old French (even the particular Old French "F" for "S" is used in the English translation writing), hence "Guillaume Le Conquérant" in French ("William the Conqueror" in English).

I think "Norman" (English) comes from "Normand" (Français), probably coming from "Norskmenn" (Norsk). "Guillaume Le Conquérant" is born in the Duché de Normandie (Normandy fief in France), his Christian name (birthname) is "Guillaume" not "William". Why are you ignoring the original, real names?

I don't know where "Normand"'s mute "D" comes from, can't be from "Nord" (North), because of the "man", any idea?

Your motto "Honi soit qui mal y pense" is Normand (ex: Modern French is "Honni soit qui mal y pense") JP Belmondo 17:32, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The Normans spoke Norman of course (and some still do). Wace uses Normanz for the people in the Roman de Rou. He has a fun poetic explanation of the origin of the name:
mant en engleiz et en norroiz
senefie homme en franchois;
ajoustez ensemble nort et mant,
ensemble dites donc Normant;
ce est honz de north en romanz,
de la vint le non as Normanz...
Normandie, qu'il ont peuplé,
por ceu que Normanz la peuplerent,
qui en la terre converserent.
Franchoiz dient que Normendie
ce est la gent de nort mendie,
por ceu qu'il vindrent d'autre terre
por miex avoir et por miex querre.

Translation (quick and dirty): Man in English and Norse signifies man in French; add together north and man, together you'll say then Norman; which is man of the north in Romance; from that came the name of the Normans... Normandy, that they settled, because the Normans settled it who occupied the land. The French say that Normandy is the country of mendiants of the North because they came from another land to have more and seek more.

In English, us Normans are Normans, not Normands or even Normanz. Sîncéthement, Man vyi 18:57, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

No the birth name of Guillaume le Conquérant is probably Williame, because that's the Norman phonetics of Wilhelm, that also gave Guillaume in French. Wace is probably wrong about the etymology of "Normand", it is not old English or old Norse. The old caroligian manuscripts use Nortmanni (plural) and that's Frankish.Nortmannus (talk) 01:14, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Map of Conquests

In the map at the top of the page, Malta is not highlighted in red despite being a Norman conquest (it is even mentioned in the article).

Can this be arranged?

Pcacmar (talk) 13:53, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

It's a good point, the Maltese islands are clearly visible in the enlarged viewing of the map and they should also be coloured (and perhaps even named). If someone could do that, that would be useful. It's also worth pointing out that Norman Sicily had a few possessions on the North African coastline for about half a century, it would be quite informative to have these territories marked out and the time period that they were held. πιππίνυ δ - (dica) 00:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


http://www.paradoxplace.com/Perspectives/Maps/Images/Norman%20Conquests%20by%201100s%20R.jpg is a much more accurate map, albeit in black and white —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.251.76.140 (talk) 15:30, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


Should the whole of the British Isles not be coloured red, and not only England? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.217.33.76 (talk) 00:34, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

The campaigns against the Welsh were an Anglo-Norman/English thing. The Normans didn't invade Scotland, Anglo-Normans immigrated their over time. The Irish thing was conducted by Anglo/Cambro-Normans. I think for the most part the "Normans" that settled in Wales, Ireland and Scotland came from families that were already established in England. So i think that's why the map doesn't shade those countries in.--Celtus (talk) 06:08, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps the map should be removed, after all Antioch was not a "Norman coquest" either, even less so than Wales or Ireland: which, at the least, is usually called a Norman conquest. Srnec (talk) 00:14, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
OK, i see what you mean. I guess it should be removed. Maybe someone could make a map that shows actual conquests from Normandy in one shade and 'Norman influence' (or something) in another shade.--Celtus (talk) 06:23, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that most of the British Isles (apart from a few Gaelic kingdoms in Ireland and also North Wales) should be coloured. Both Bruce and Balliol were Norman dynasties in Scotland. South Wales was invaded not long after the Normans had taken England (same with Ireland also). The ruling caste were Franco-Norman speaking and cultured until around the time of the Hundred Years War. - Yorkshirian (talk) 14:09, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Talk:Normans/Archive_1&oldid=1265027938"