Talk:Iyami Aje

Requested move 2 April 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is no consensus for a move to the proposed page. (closed by non-admin page mover) qedk (t 桜 c) 13:42, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

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Iyami Aje → Aje – As the introduction says, "Iyami Aje is a Yoruba term of respect and endearment used to describe a woman of African ancestry who is considered to be an Aje..." However, the bulk of the article is actually about the concept of aje, which is mentioned 66 times. This includes the titles of books used as sources, none of which use the phrase "Iyami Aje" which is used only 11 times in the article.} We'd have to rename the dab page of course. Doug Weller talk 08:21, 2 April 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. SITH (talk) 18:46, 9 April 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. B dash (talk) 13:07, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

• Actually, this is exactly what I thought when I ran across this page some time ago, but because I didn't create it, I left it as is. But you are correct: "Iyami Aje" is clearly a praise name. Your idea is spot on. Dare I say "great minds..."? OjogbonIjinle (talk) 08:57, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose, target is a dab page, move to Aje (goddess) In ictu oculi (talk) 09:30, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
  • @In ictu oculi: that isn't a problem, just as we have Danzig (disambiguation) we can have Aje (disambiguation). That's why I pointed out we'd have to retitle the dab page. And it would be odd to call the page "goddess" when goddess isn't even discussed in the article. Doug Weller talk 15:27, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

The article is in the Category:Yoruba goddesses, but if (orisha) (Yoruba religion) is better fine. But Oppose just Aje as Aje (company) is a Peruvian beverages company. No evidence that this is only meaning of "Aje is". In ictu oculi (talk) 20:25, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

The company is AJE, not "Aje", so that's not relevant for where we move this. — kwami (talk) 22:48, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

• Support move, but to ajẹ, and rewrite the article. It's difficult to even tell what this incoherent article is about, since the lead seems to have little to do with the contents. Unless there is something particularly noteworthy about the phrase "Iyami Aje", its description belongs at Wiktionary or as a section in an article on Aje.

The concept of àṣẹ (divine power / vital force) is at ase (Yoruba), so we could do something like that. Definitely not a goddess,, "àjẹ́" is the esoteric knowledge that is hopefully described accurately in this article and translated as "witchcraft" by Christians. It can also be used for a practitioner, in which can its Christian translation is "witch". I don't know to what extent it's restricted to women. Also, the concept is presumably retained in Candomble and other Yoruba-derived religions.

Tone marks are not often used when writing Yoruba, so we could always move to ajẹ. In that case 'ase (Yoruba)' should be moved to aṣẹ. (Which I just did anyway.) Also, this should be linked from Template:Orisa-Ifá sidebar. — kwami (talk) 22:45, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

The proper orthography of the word is Àjẹ́. Yoruba is a tonal language that also has specific sounds for certain vowels and consonants; as such, the diacritical marks are essential to understanding the proper and exact meaning of words. Using the word’s proper orthography would prevent confusion, if the article is retitled. The term Àjẹ́ describes both a power and an individual (whether or god or a human being) who has that particular power. Àjẹ́ is not the equivalent of “witchcraft” or “witch”; any attempt to equate these two linguistically, politically, culturally, religiously, ethnically, spiritually different concepts and terms would be incorrect, as several sources in the article state. The desire to "anglicize" or "christianize" African terms, orthography, and concepts leads to errors, confusion, and demonization (as is the case with Àjẹ́ : "witch"; Èṣù : devil). If this Yoruba word is represented properly, as a Yoruba word, quite a bit of confusion would be eliminated.OjogbonIjinle (talk) 19:39, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Except that Yoruba orthography seldom makes use of tone marking. For example, Fagunwa's Ogboju Ọdẹ Ninu Igbo Irunmalẹ only uses tone marking sporadically, for disambiguation and for unfamiliar words, the way a Chinese or Japanese text might use ruby text/furigana. For example, 'God' is just "Ọlọrun". On the other hand, the vowels <ẹ> and <ọ> are always indicated, as it would seem are nasal vowels. I agree that the tone-marked form should be included in the lead, just as Arabic script should be included for Arabic names, but we have a large cadre here on WP who want to do away with all diacritics in article titles with the argument that this is English WP and they aren't English. It might turn out to be a difficult enough argument to include the diacritics that are consistently used in Yoruba, without trying to push through diacritics that Yoruba itself seldom bothers with. It would be different on Wiktionary, since Yoruba dictionaries do consistently indicate tone.

BTW, I agree that we should not Christianize Yoruba religions names and terms. That was just an example for those who might think that Ajẹ was a goddess. — kwami (talk) 23:27, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

It is incorrect to assert that "Yoruba orthography seldom makes use of tone marking." Sure, one can examples of lazy and/or "christianized"/"anglicized" editors and writers who do not use tone marks properly or at all. In some cases, Euro/Anglo publishing houses have demanded Yoruba be "anglicized" so that the publishing house can cut costs. Those decisions have led to great confusion and to the assumption that it doesn't matter how one says certain Yoruba words; which is wrong. But there more writers, philosophers, spiritualists, ethnographers, etc. who do use the diacritical marks properly and consistently, such as Abimbola, Bascom, Adeoye, Badejo, Adediran, Washington, Lawal, Ibitokun, Idowu, Ogunba, Oladapo, Abiodun, etc. Without proper tone marks, "Aje" (Àjẹ́, a particular power and a person endowed with that power) is indistinguishable from "Aje" (Ajé, the god of wealth and prosperity). Just because some people have done something (left out diacritical marks, for example) does not make what they have done correct or acceptable.

So many peoples, languages, and cultures have contributed and are contributing to American English, in particular, that it seems xenophobic and isolationist to try to remove diacritical marks from various languages; this would be forced anglicization which could also be considered cultural genocide. Another "cadre" could take this notion a step further and decide to do away with any people, culture, or concept that is not "English" (by that cadre's standards, of course). I guess we must ask ourselves, is the goal to spew misinformation from a cultural vacuum or to properly represent information, cultures, people, and data?OjogbonIjinle (talk) 05:48, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Wew

This article is some next-level Hotep stuff. "African women, the direct biological and spiritual progeny of Odù, are said to all inherently bear various aspects of her signature force: Àjẹ́.". Samuel M. Opeola is a crank peddling Heinrich Himmler level racialist fakelore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vocabularious (talk • contribs) 23:07, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Witch hunts

Nigeria did not become a Eurorpean possetion untill 1852, long after the witch hunts in europe were over. Given the source for this is both dead and maybe not even be an RS this concearns me. We need a better soruce for this claim. Slatersteven (talk) 10:28, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Witch trials in the early modern period#Peak of the trials: 1560–1630 vs Nigeria#Pre-colonial era which opens by saying "In the 16th century, Portuguese explorers were the first Europeans to begin important, direct trade with the peoples of southern Nigeria, at the port they named Lagos (formerly Eko) and in Calabar along the region Slave Coast." Some of the prose will need reworked to avoid synth, but quite a bit of the prose needs reworked for various reasons anyway. But, the timeline does seem legitimate.

I've seen some articles about impact of missionary activity in Africa on witch hunting- I'll see if I can find something more direct later. Darker Dreams (talk) 20:42, 21 September 2023 (UTC)