Talk:Israel–Hamas war/Archive 1

Archive 1

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Archive 5

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 October 2023 (2)

}} 114.122.70.153 (talk) 15:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

•  Done and  Not done; there's not really a request here to do. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:44, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

(Closed) Merge

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

It is suggested that this article be merged into the October 2023 Gaza−Israel conflict. Ainty Painty (talk) 09:54, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Strong support Braganza (talk) 09:58, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) PFLP Confirms Involvement

new account so I cannot update but this tweet links to the original - much longer - link directly from the PFLP website. https://twitter.com/d_j_frost/status/1710560684113629304?s=46&t=d4TkjxnSxVvggrJTlng4Pw Milksubstitutor (talk) 10:17, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Israel has officially declared war

. 105.101.70.113 (talk) 14:10, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Yeah it's been noted in the article - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 14:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Singapore

Can someone add a part in the "Reactions" section to include SIngapore's condemnation? See here for source. S5A-0043^Talk 14:20, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done Thank you. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 14:31, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 October 2023

Add Polish Foreign Minister response, Zbigniew Rau, in support of Israel in condemning in the strongest terms the attacks performed by Hamas.

1. Relevant Tweet [[1]] 80.7.65.14 (talk) 14:52, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done Thank you. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 14:59, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Slovak Republic

Minister of Defence [2] and Deputy Minister of Ministry of Defence [3] had expressed support to Israel. BlackShadowG (talk) 15:04, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 15:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

link

perhaps the link for the mention of "rockets" in the first paragraph should link to Missiles, as of right now it links to rockets(as in ones used for space) JustSomeGuy4361 (talk) 15:31, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:34, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Infobox image removal

@Forest576: Why have you removed two of the images from the infobox? I don't really see a good explanation in the edit summaries. Please self-revert. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:38, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Image is stolen from Al Jazeera (File:Tank captured by palestinians.png). Forest576 (talk) 15:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The other one was already deleted from commons. Forest576 (talk) 15:41, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I really should have caught that. Again, my apologies. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:44, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Ah. My apologies. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:41, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Operation Al-Aqsa Flood which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 08:24, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The result of the move request was: redirected to this article. [4] - Fuzheado | Talk 14:59, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Aftermath?

Why is there an Aftermath section? This is ongoing. Also it kind of feels like it's written by AI 85.65.187.175 (talk) 10:07, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

it has been removed Abo Yemen✉ 10:57, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

What is the official name of the operation

New account so I can't edit this but we know the Israelis are calling their "response" Iron Swords. Maybe for now call it the name that Palestinian militant groups are referring to as opposed to "Hamas attack on Israel".

You know, for the neutrality that wikipedia is so famous for! Bingusbungus12345 (talk) 08:03, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

there already is a discussion to merge the two articles so this is pointless SignedInteger (talk) 08:04, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

not really, actually. I still don't see a neutral article title. Bingusbungus12345 (talk) 09:28, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Start an RM for a different title if the current one is seen as not neutral, seems OK atm. Selfstudier (talk) 09:53, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Hamas calls it Operation Al-Aqsa Flood. AmericanBaath (talk) 00:23, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Merge?

@Slgrandson: Edward-Woodrow • talk 13:04, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

"Expressed restraint" is not proper English

You can say "called for restraint" or "urged the parties to show restraint", but not "expressed restraint".

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 October 2023

updates have said that more Palestinians have been killed DBakampaka (talk) 08:07, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 08:56, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 October 2023 (2)

Italy is protecting jewish areas too 158.148.105.15 (talk) 09:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. 84.250.15.152 (talk) 10:03, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Name

I suggest we name this war, or at least the initial attack the Palestinian Offensive 2023. Wikiman38 (talk) 03:34, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

There are extensive discussions on the name of the article above. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 03:35, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done - See extended discussion in the current requested move. - Fuzheado | Talk 08:28, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Infobox

Surely ‘operation al-Aqsa flood’ would be a better title to the infobox than ‘Palestinian attack on Israel’, as it’s more specific? 81.106.115.150 (talk) 11:32, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes but this article also mentions Israel's operation too. Abo Yemen✉ 11:44, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Duplicate

ElijahPepe keeps recreating a duplicate at 2023 Gaza war. Admins, notice this, please. Triggerhippie4 (talk) 13:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

This article is now up for the deletion process, so arguments against its existence should be taken there and no further redirects should occur until it is closed. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 13:42, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Should be redirected here, not deleted. It's a valid search term. FunkMonk (talk) 13:46, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Link: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2023 Gaza war. Triggerhippie4 (talk) 13:53, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Israel has now officially declared war. Name should remain. 24.20.147.65 (talk) 13:55, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I have speedy closed that deletion request so that 2023 Gaza war redirects to this article. - Fuzheado | Talk 14:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

• Here's a stub which also seems to be unneeded: Stand-off in Be'eri and Ofakim FunkMonk (talk) 19:13, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Civilian/Combatant casualties/injuries?

Is there an accurate representation for how many combatants have been injured/killed? I think it would be a far more accurate representation for those who are curious as to how the war is going, which we now cant quite get a good sight on.

[Reply by zoryz_]

This information is almost certainly not available yet. This is still a highly fluid conflict. Perhaps the sides will make announcements with the numbers of combatants and civilians at some point, but we must wait. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 14:38, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

From what I understand, reports from the Palestinian side didn't specify how many victims were civilians or terrorists. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 14:39, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Map

Hi Stowgull, not sure if you intentionally added it back but IMO the map is pretty pointless: we have limited knowledge of the territorial gains and the actual border is ridiculously low quality with no details on checkpoints, roads, etc. – Isochrone (T) 14:55, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I've removed the map. The map itself isn't well-sourced (the Commons page doesn't really have a good list of sources), and we should avoid placing unverifiable information in the infobox of an article. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:07, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

If anything, a new, verifiable map should really be made from the UN OCHA map or using the relevant OCHA GIS data. – Isochrone (T) 15:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Also see #Map of alleged territory seized by Hamas where I suggested using the existing Israel-Palestine map template for a map - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 18:05, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@Isochrone That was unintentional. Was just trying to correct the capitalization. Stowgull (talk) 15:10, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Flag

I don't know why the flags were removed from the Reaction section, it just makes it more difficult to identify countries. BlackShadowG (talk) 14:59, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Magnolia677 (talk · contribs) appears to have removed them. Their edit summaries cited WP:OL and WP:DECOR. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 15:04, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

My understanding is that it's somewhat standard to not have flags there, but I'm having trouble finding that in MOS:FLAG. My guess is that it's to do with MOS:NOICONS. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:04, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Then we’re gonna need a way better solution than the current format because right now this is very unhelpful and confusing in my opinion. S5A-0043^Talk 15:06, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

MOS:NOICONS only banned the use of flags in prose, this section is in list format. BlackShadowG (talk) 15:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The icons serve no navigational function, and country names are not linked. Magnolia677 (talk) 15:12, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

they do Abo Yemen✉ 16:06, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

They do serve a navigational function, they're visual identifiers. Much faster to spot a flag than to comb through words. Killuminator (talk) 16:14, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@Killuminator exactly Abo Yemen✉ 16:18, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

One could convert this into an actual tabular list rather than the current WP:PROSELINE that we've got. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:16, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Most of the reaction section is undue, with the listed reactions being largely based on primary sources, i.e. twitter posts, with no secondary sources establishing weight. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:23, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@Iskandar323: This is a reasonable point. Is this a practice that is typically followed on other pages with global "reactions" sections? Is there no presupposition of notability if, let's say, the UN makes a statement? Just curious. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 16:44, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Beyond sourcing, when there are hundreds are reactions, some sort of prioritisation is necessary. A statement by the UN secretary general would be meaningful - a statement just put out by the press office might not be, unless covered in secondary sources for some reason. Serious interview-sources statements by country leaders are also pretty worthy of mention, but this doesn't particularly apply to tweets, which more often than not are just generic words scripted by aides. The next level down are foreign minister statements, which again can be worthy of mention with the same provisos (tweets are again the lowest common denominator), and below that are all the generic foreign ministry statements, which are often little more valuable than your average press release material. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:56, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Makes sense. I will do some vetting of the tweets to see if they've been picked up in RS (or if there are better sources instead). --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 17:00, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@Iskandar323: How's this: We start to hide (<!-- -->) countries where there are no secondary RS. We can delete them later if no sources emerge later. Figure it's easier than removing and then re-adding later. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 17:06, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

instead of hiding how about just marking them with a [Better source needed] Abo Yemen✉ 17:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Duh, that's a better intermediate step. Yes, let's do that. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 17:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

the flags section has been split to List of international reactions to the October 2023 Gaza−Israel conflict Abo Yemen✉ 17:35, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Taliban

An Russian Telegram Channel wrote, that the Taliban supports Hamas. Link: https://t.me/c/1650319399/1/1993585 لهثسن (talk) 15:01, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, but this appears to be a private Telegram channel. (I can't even see the message without joining the channel.) If you can find a news article from a mainstream source mentioning this information, I'd be happy to add it. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 15:06, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Flag map of the conflict

based on https://liveuamap.com/ i made a flag map of the war. 47.204.53.161 (talk) 15:09, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

See #Map above. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Info box: add Iran to the "diplomatic support" for the palestinian groups

should we add a "diplomatic support" to the infobox for the palestinian side? because Iran is the only country that out right support the palestinian groups, and it shows america on the Israeli side. just my thoughts

Proposed infobox

October 2023 Gaza−Israel conflict Part of the Gaza–Israel conflict File:Israeli casulties Oct 2023.webp File:Tank captured by palestinians.png Clockwise from top: Israeli casualties during Operation Al-Aqsa Flood, Palestinians celebrating the capture of an Israeli tank, Palestinian attacks on Israeli base, Rocket impact on a car in Rishon LeZion Date 7 October 2023 – present Location Israel and Gaza Strip, Palestine Status Ongoing Belligerents Palestine Hamas PIJ PFLP DFLP File:Lion's Den Emblem.png Lions' Den Diplomatic support: Iran Israel Diplomatic support: United States Commanders and leaders Mohammed Al-Daif Abu Obaida Isaac Herzog Benjamin Netanyahu Yoav Galant Herzi Halevi Kobi Shabtai Units involved Al-Qassam Brigades Al-Quds Brigades Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades National Resistance Brigades Israel Defense Forces Israel Police Strength 1,000 Casualties and losses 198 Palestinians killed, 1,610 injured 100+ Israelis killed, 908 injured, 53 captured 17 Nepalis captured by Hamas, 7 Nepalis injured References

Durranistan (talk) 15:12, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

It's not part of convention for such infobox. Attempts to do so have been reverted. Borgenland (talk) 15:14, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

• @Abo Yemen: I've noticed that you removed part of a diplomatic support section from the infobox on the basis that never in wikipedia have i seen a "diplomatic support" section. You seem to only have done this on the Palestinian side in the infobox; your edit left intact a "diplomatic support" note involving the United States on the Israeli side of the infobox. Why delete the one on the basis that you've never seen it before while leaving the other one? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:13, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Diplomatic support does not go in an infobox. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 15:20, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Is there a reason for this? I believe I've seen it in infoboxes before. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:29, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Infobox is for active military support only (eg Belarus in the Russian invasion of Ukraine) ChaotıċEnby(talk) 15:58, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Let me rephrase. Is there some discussion that came to community consensus on that conclusion? I'm not aware of any, though I'd be happy to take a look at links if you'd be willing to provide them. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 17:35, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  "Diplomatic support" is mentioned in the infobox for Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. It used to be on Soviet–Afghan War as well. AmericanBaath (talk) 00:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

  Some parts removed at the same time that other editors put the opposite side on. Borgenland (talk) 15:51, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  i removed both of them but someone else added it back and i didn't really focus on it. Let's add back the standard "Supported by:" Abo Yemen✉ 15:59, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Diplomatic Support in favor of Hamas

Could someone Add "Diplomatic Support" in the Palestinian section of the Template:Infobox military conflict. The countries/Organisations who Support Palestine are Hezbollah and Iran. Source (in German): https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Hamas-Attacke-erhaelt-Beifall-von-Israels-Feinden-article24447286.html لهثسن (talk) 15:15, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

See above. – Isochrone (T) 15:17, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Add Finlands response

Finnish foreign minister Elina Valtonen tweeted support for Israel, a tweet which was retweeted by the finnish government twitter page. https://x.com/elinavaltonen/status/1710561468419039583?s=20 Someone with edit perms please add this response, thank you Jukuboi (talk) 15:52, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 16:26, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

PFLP

Should "socialist PFLP" be this prominent in the article? Why socialist and not secular? There is no explanation of secular PFLP's new cooperation with Hamas. Sometimes organization ideologies and networks change after decades. If all there is is a tweet and PFLP website I hoping someone else will remove it or make it less prominent for the time being. Ben Azura (talk) 16:02, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I removed "socialist" because we don't make any special ideological note for the other Palestinian groups. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 16:37, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Add response from Portuguese President and Prime Minister

Both the Portuguese president and the Prime Minister condemned the attacks branding them as "Unacceptable". The Portuguese prime minister said: "The attacks from today against Israel are unacceptable and deserve our strong condemnation. We are sorry for the victims of these attacks, we leave a word of solidarity to their families."

Taken from the following articles in Portuguese:

https://e-global.pt/noticias/lusofonia/portugal/portugal-primeiro-ministro-condena-ataques-em-israel/

https://www.publico.pt/2023/10/07/politica/noticia/israel-marcelo-costa-condenam-ataques-inaceitaveis-nao-ha-portugueses-afectados-2065916 PedroSheridan (talk) 16:04, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 16:35, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Add Norwegian response

I can't edit the article due to its status, so I'll just put it here. The Norwegian Prime Minister, Støre, has said on Twitter [5]https://twitter.com/jonasgahrstore/status/1710621092673429700 that "Norway strongly condemns the attacks on Israeli civilians and ask that the violence stops immediately. This is a very serious situation developing. Israel has the right to defend itself against military attacks. It is important the violence does not escalate." 109.247.106.208 (talk) 12:45, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

There's an official translation in English I didn't see: [6]https://twitter.com/jonasgahrstore/status/1710620794198323432 109.247.106.208 (talk) 12:47, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Just added it! ChaotıċEnby(talk) 13:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't think it's that important what the Norwegian Prime Minister said. I wouldn't add it. 82.147.226.240 (talk) 01:10, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Why would the response of the Norwegian Prime Minister be less important than the response of other heads of state, as listed in International reactions to the October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict? Renerpho (talk) 05:56, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

This has been added to International reactions to the October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict, thanks. Renerpho (talk) 05:55, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Add Romanian response

https://twitter.com/KlausIohannis/status/1710570418753474952: Romania strongly condemns this morning rocket attacks against Israel. We stand in full solidarity with Israel in these terrible moments. Our thoughts are with the families of victims and with those who are under fire. Cristi767 (talk) 13:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree it's notable. But it would probably be better placed in the "international reactions" article instead of this. Only the superpowers and great powers deserve mention, in my opinion. KlayCax (talk) 01:14, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

This has been added to International reactions to the October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict, thanks. Renerpho (talk) 05:55, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Open air prison by HRW

@KiharaNoukan: Your removal of sourced content is not only counterproductive to the state of the article but also in violation of 1RR. There is no reason not to include this important piece of information that belongs in the background section. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:47, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

You deleted sourced content factually stating that the Blockade of the Gaza Strip is conducted by both Israel and Egypt to insert WP:UNDUE POV calling the blockade an "open air prison." KiharaNoukan (talk) 13:55, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The HRW source I used (UN, Amnesty International, among others have made the same characterization) has called Gaza an open-air prison due to the Israeli blockade while mentioning Egyptian restrictions at Rafah border and not an Egyptian blockade; making my edit completely due and yours completely unsourced. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:04, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss Here is a very recent Reuter's article stating: "Israel, which along with Egypt maintains a tight blockade of the Gaza Strip" However, for the sake of each others' sanity and time, do you want to discuss this on the admin noticeboard page you opened up before giving me a chance to respond, or do you want to discuss this here? KiharaNoukan (talk) 14:23, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Both these things are common in sources so both should go in, properly sourced. Both are potentially POV, one because there is no comparison between the Israeli and Egyptian control and the other because it is in general, although not only, rights groups using the phrase open air prison. Selfstudier (talk) 14:42, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

While I would disagree with that characterization, given the extensively more thorough article on the blockade mentioning a dual nation blockade on line 1 of the lead indicating it to be a clearly WP:DUE short descriptor of the blockade, I don't see a problem with inserting both, with like you said, proper sourcing. "The Gaza Strip has been subject to an Israeli and Egyptian blockade since 2007, described by HRW as an 'open air prison.'" or something along those lines would work for me for consensus. KiharaNoukan (talk) 15:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Works with me, for now. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:37, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

As of this comment, an editor has already added in "economic hardship", left in the dual-nation blockade, and has recent sourcing directly connecting it to the attacks to make their additions evidently WP:DUE, I think these additions work better than my verbatim proposal, while maintaining the same content as the consensus reached. KiharaNoukan (talk) 05:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Title should be updated to include War

As Israel declared a state of war in the morning of October 7, shouldn't the title be updated to reflect the change of status from operation to war Efuture2 (talk) 16:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

A new RM can be proposed once the current RM, which includes some discussion about this, is dealt with. Selfstudier (talk) 16:10, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

see #Requested move 7 October 2023 Abo Yemen✉ 16:50, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done - Please see discussion above for the existing requested move. - Fuzheado | Talk 20:27, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Over-linking of titles

In the list of presidents and prime ministers who offered support for Israel, do we need to link each leader's title? It creates a MOS:SEAOFBLUE and isn't really necessary. Magnolia677 (talk) 16:42, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

If you BOLDly removed the links to the titles, I would not revert you. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 16:49, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Map

Perhaps it would be convenient if there was a map that showed what countries' positions were. Dl.thinker (talk) 16:46, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

A map would be very helpful here, especially if it indicated where the fighting has been. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 19:39, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Andrew012p (talk) 19:42, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Saudi Arabia as a palestine supporter?

I think the part of Saudi Arabia should be in the neutral section instead of the "Palestine support" one,since they speech was more to a peaceful solution to the war Lucasmota0975 (talk) 17:14, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

It was a bit of a mixture, I'd say keep it where it is but as its position potentially evolves, it could be changed - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 18:06, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I think it is appropriate the way it is now Stephan rostie (talk) 18:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@Lucasmota0975 I agree it should be changed to neutral. 124.123.164.140 (talk) 18:43, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

New attacks against Tel Aviv

Hamas has fired 150 rockets towards Tel Aviv

source: https://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/i/on2pog/nye-rakettangrep-mot-israel in Norwegian 158.248.72.36 (talk) 17:47, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

CNN, in English NotAGenious (talk) 18:10, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

original telegram? NotAGenious (talk) 18:13, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Support

Support should be added in the infobox. The Pentagon, the highest US military body, announced its support and readiness to provide what Israel needs. Iran expresses its full support for the Palestinians. Dl.thinker (talk) 14:27, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I removed it from the infobox earlier. At this point the support is solely diplomatic. Wouldn't "support" as a belligerent only make sense if the DOD was actually supplying materiel? --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 14:32, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Israel's military is funded by the US by default, so that would be pointless. FunkMonk (talk) 14:55, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Imagine having to pitch in the rest of Europe arming the IDF and every Eastern bloc country supplying Kalashnikovs to Hamas. Borgenland (talk) 15:02, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Someone re-added it? Doesn’t seem to have reached consensus or have a source, also seems poorly placed as it’s diplomatic support, I’m removing it if I don’t see any other reasons for it staying up Bobisland (talk) 12:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

A source has appeared in the form of a WSJ exclusive article, I have taken the liberty to re-add Iran to the infobox as supporter, citing this source. Given the WSJ's status as a highly regarded quality newspaper, and the convincing contents of the article, I believe it shouldn't be a problem to re-add Iran to the list without first hashing it out here on the talk page. --Jurryaany (talk) 22:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Israeli retaliation

At least 200 people have been killed and 1,610 wounded in the Palestinian enclave of Gaza during Israel’s retaliation after a surprise attack by Palestinian forces into Israel, the health ministry says [7] better add this to the Intro page for more context and a balance. Mujiwins (talk) 18:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done -- Jprg1966 ^(talk) 18:51, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Armenian reacation

Can someone ddd the Armenian reacation? Source:

https://newsarmenia.am/news/in_the_world/mid-armenii-shokirovany-nasiliem-mezhdu-palestintsami-i-izrailem-i-targetirovaniem-grazhdanskogo-nas/ لهثسن (talk) 18:14, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Doing... NotAGenious (talk) 18:15, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

N I withdraw - I'd like to see an official, reliable statement by the ministry. NotAGenious (talk) 18:23, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Updated casualties tolls

Reported casualties so far:

- Israel: 250 dead, 1,104 injured

- Gaza: 232 dead, 1,697 injured

source: BNOnews

https://twitter.com/bnonews/status/1710725503655596082

Stephan rostie (talk) 19:00, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done I believe BNO's Israeli numbers are off here. The number at one time was 150+ Israeli dead and 1,104 injured. Those have each now been updated to 200+ and 1,452. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 19:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Support and opposition in the lead

Should countries support/opposition be mentioned in the lead? I was under the operating assumption that generally these sorts of things should be mentioned in the leads of conflicts. But I'm not sure if that'd make this page too verbose.

@Jprg1966: reverted the addition, unknowingly, I reverted his. So I just wanted to reach some sort of consensus with him + other editors on the page. :)

Thanks! KlayCax (talk) 19:21, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Right, my main concern was that the language reflect the balance of actual opinions voiced so far. So I tried to do that with my last edit. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 19:26, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Looks good. @Jprg1966:. I don't have a strong preference for inclusion/deletion. Not sure if there's a general "rule of thumb" in conflict-type situations or whether it's up to the judgement of editors in each article. KlayCax (talk) 19:28, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I summarized it[8]. I don't think nitty gritty details are for the lead (like it doesn't matter that PA's support for the uprising happened at an "emergency meeting").VR _talk 19:55, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Title

I think the title should be changed to 2023 israeli gaza war first of all not to be confused with the 2023 may conflict and because this is way more than a "conflict" Fnfp (talk) 19:52, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done - Please see the discussion above for the existing requested move. - Fuzheado | Talk 20:27, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Talk:October_2023_Gaza−Israel_conflict#Requested_move_7_October_2023 Cwater1 (talk) 22:41, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Page move needed on a technicality

The current separator between "Gaza" and "Israel" in the name is a minus sign −, instead of an en dash –. Per MOS:DASH, an en dash is the correct character here. Would also need to be applied to the international reactions page. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 19:52, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done, can you update the redirects and text? Andre🚐 20:05, 7 October 2023 (UTC)My apologies, I accidentally moved the talk page without moving the article itself. Someone else has to do it, it's protected. Andre🚐 20:07, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

We'll need an admin for this :( ChaotıċEnby(talk) 20:10, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Yep. I was able to move the reactions page, though. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 20:15, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I moved it back to keep it consistent and get rid of the red link until the article gets moved. - RockinJack18 20:21, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

PFLP?

The lead mentions that the PFLP is involved with the attacks. Which reference verifies this? Cullen328 (talk) 21:27, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The infobox appears to link to a statement on PFLP's website. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 21:46, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

That statement is a primary source and is non-specific bluster. Are they actually a part of today's attacks? Cullen328 (talk) 22:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Someone kidnapped has been identified

Shani Louk, a German citizen, who was seen unconscious in that pickup truck video was identified and reported to be missing by her relatives, as she was attending an outdoor party in Urim, Israel. source. 2A02:908:4E3:9520:DD40:507C:B7CE:F490 (talk) 21:58, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I think this is relevant

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1710757415388414307#m

A German citizen was murdered. 69.249.102.223 (talk) 22:32, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Tweets are generally considered unreliable for sourcing requirements. XeCyranium (talk) 00:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Hamas warns that they will spread the invasion through the West Bank and Jerusalem.

Due to Israel's Future Assault on Hamas (Gaza), they are now threatening to spread more through the West Bank instead of it being Gaza alone.

Source: https://www.scmp.com/news/world/middle-east/article/3237188/israel-vows-mighty-vengeance-hamas-warns-deadly-gaza-assault-will-spread-west-bank-and-jerusalem ItsMeJoeyHigi (talk) 00:33, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Fix Hyperlink

One of the commanders on the Israeli side, Johnathan Steinberg (who is KIA), has an article. These are the same person, but there is no hyperlink in this specific article to the article about Yonathan. 2601:246:5E01:30A0:B0B8:FFE1:2419:1DF3 (talk) 00:37, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Jonatan** 2601:246:5E01:30A0:B0B8:FFE1:2419:1DF3 (talk) 00:38, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@2601:246:5E01:30A0:B0B8:FFE1:2419:1DF3

Hi, the link to the existing article has been added.

Thanks. David O. Johnson (talk) 00:45, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Israeli Commanders and Leaders

Under "Commanders and Leaders", Police Commissioner Kobi Shabti is listed, while Minister of National Security Itamar Ben-Gvir is omitted. Ben-Gvir is the official in command of the Israeli police force and Shabti's superior officer. All leaders of the Israeli police, especially the Cabinet member in charge of them (Ben-Gvir), should be listed since the police is engaged in the conflict. Ben-Gvir, as Minister of National Security, is a member of Security Cabinet of Israel.

Map Image Typos

The map shows 'Netivol', this should be 'Netivot'. The location is on the East side, approximately midway up the image.

See Netivot for more info. Elderlystrawberry (talk) 02:50, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Dates

It is now 8 October. Will the article need to be reformatted to include a timeline? Borgenland (talk) 03:04, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Occupation

Article should mention that legally Gaza and the West Bank are occupied territory and that this is the opinion of pretty much the entire international community. The way the article talks about "occupation" is that it's just some Arab claim. 2001:569:57B2:4D00:C9A0:AE48:F495:2536 (talk) 03:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

death toll 300 now

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israeli-death-toll-in-hamas-onslaught-rises-to-at-least-300/ 2001:569:57B2:4D00:C9A0:AE48:F495:2536 (talk) 22:47, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

It is already over 350+

T.me/manniefabian/39497 77.248.247.89 (talk) 07:10, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

"whilst overlooking the prelude to the conflict and Israel’s deliberate targeting of civilian targets."

this aside is not derived from the sources presented.Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 06:34, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

My bad bestie, it has been corrected by the girlbosses and it has been reverted The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 07:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Removal of casualties in Gaza

Daveout can you explained why you removed mention of the Israeli attack on the hospital in Gaza and the fact that it killed an Indonesian working there?[9]

If Hamas has caused similar casualties they should be mentioned too.VR _talk 04:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Indeed it was an hasty action, I should have looked the context a little closer. That's why I self reverted before you wrote this. I still think the way it's described is too wordy, as if it were trying to imply something. Anyway apologies for the inconvenience. Stay well. –Daveout(talk) 04:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks and you too.VR _talk 04:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The description of the claim (And maybe also with its claim, but that needs to be ascertained) is not accurate/correct

https://www.businessinsider.com/doctors-without-borders-hospitals-ambulances-targets-israel-hamas-gaza-2023-10 2A00:A041:1CE0:0:E813:77F3:5AD8:B10C (talk) 06:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure no Indonesian has been killed yet, the Indonesian Ministry of Foreign Affairs has confirmed that no Indonesian national has been killed

https://x.com/kemlu_ri/status/1710924285324452195?s=46 2404:8000:1024:13EA:2B8A:247D:DD6:1C8A (talk) 10:09, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Hezbollah has apparently joined in

So what to name it now? 2023 Arab Israeli War? 5th Arab Israeli War? 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:55B0:11B8:C431:F554 (talk) 05:26, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn’t go that far, since no nations are actually involved, but rather militias and popular support The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 07:15, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

No other countries have joined in so 3rd Intifada might be more fitting MysticForce07 (talk) 05:29, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Isn't Intifada specifically for a low intensity conflict in West Bank? 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:55B0:11B8:C431:F554 (talk) 05:38, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

(or rather occupied territory, which doesn't really cover Gaza anymore since they left after the Second Intifada) 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:55B0:11B8:C431:F554 (talk) 05:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

• Hezbollah fired some rockets at the Shebaa Farms, which is illegally occupied territory, but has little to do with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict itself. Hardly of any consequence, so not really significant enough for the infobox. FunkMonk (talk) 12:13, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Causality update

According to IDF spokesman the Israeli military has killed more than 400 Palestinian fighters in southern Israel and the Gaza Strip https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-it-killed-more-than-400-terrorists/ Hu741f4 (talk) 07:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I would question it, notice it refers to them collectively as “terrorists”, “times of Israel” doesn’t seem to be reliable in this case, have you seen a similar count from other media? The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 08:07, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I would suggest getting a reliable sources from a global news network. Local state/independent medias are likely to be a bit inaccurate especially during this ongoing conflict. BlueHelvetical (talk) 09:06, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

ToI is usually OK, the terrorist label is coming from the IDF. Selfstudier (talk) 09:46, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Why were PFLP and DFLP removed?

Their unit are still listed so why remove them? Genabab (talk) 09:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

If you have the citations for their involvement, then you can add them The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 09:40, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Israeli Commander Nimrod Aloni has been captured ?

Found this on twitter: https://twitter.com/MarioNawfal/status/1710602173262840257?s=20

Can anyone confirm with RS? Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:15, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Nothing to confirm. People are just spreading rumors because they think that this person looks like the IDF commander. ie it's social media self-research. Ignore it. Harizotoh9 (talk) 12:14, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

This is fake. HiyoriX (talk) 12:27, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Even the The Jewish Chronicle[10] is reporting it, though. FunkMonk (talk) 12:35, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The IDF literally published a photo of Nimrod Aloni in the meeting with the heads of the IDF yesterday. It just goes to show what a stupid, unreliable, biased propaganda tool Wikipedia has become. Hijacked by terrorists to spread fear and psychological warfare. How pathetic!

No need to be crying like a child. 「HypeBoy」^TALK 22:29, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

No, far from being "stupid, unreliable, biased propaganda", Wikipedia has so far reported this conflict in a relatively balanced way. Unlike many other media outlets - such as the BBC - Wikipedia is not helping Israel to spread its' fear and psychological warfare. Now how pathetic and shameful are the BBC and other media lapdogs? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.166.181 (talk • contribs)

Let's just wait a bit for the media and parties involved to settle on a name

It might be the Gaza War, it might be the Israel-Palestine War 2023, it might get some fancy Hebrew name, heck for all we know Fatah and Hezbollah could get involved and it's suddenly the 5th Arab-Israeli War 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:55B0:11B8:C431:F554 (talk) 03:08, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

This isn't a war this is a slaughter 2601:40:C481:A940:3C92:C11F:3285:D004 (talk) 13:18, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Change Title to "October 2023 Anti-Israel Massacres"

non extended confirmed users cannot participate in requested moves and this has no chance of consensus anyway
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This is not a conflict, this was a coordinated air, land and sea terrorist invasion with the express objective of killing as many Jewish civilians as possible. Regardless of our POV, we must neutrally represent these massacres committed in the name of ethnoterritorialism, nationalism, and other far-right politics. It is not that we have an obligation to any POV or side, rather that incidental in our pro-Arab nationalist bias, we wikipedia editors are failing our responsibility to humanity by virtue of our bias. PresidentCoriolanus (talk) 05:19, 8 October 2023 (UTC) It sounds too much like a pogrom, and negates the fact that both sides are actively engaging against each other at the same time. Borgenland (talk) 05:22, 8 October 2023 (UTC) No. The topic is broader than the events of the morning of 7 October. I image that eventually enough sources will emerge that we will be able to support some articles on individual massacres but we haven't reach that point yet and that isn't this article.©Geni (talk) 05:23, 8 October 2023 (UTC) There was and continues to be extensive engagement with military forces and military targets. Though there appear to have been massacres in the course, these do not make up the entire event. 2604:3D09:D07D:A830:98D4:DBCA:3D4F:805B (talk) 05:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC) Is this supposed to be a joke discussion? Never knew people in war get killed instead of being hugged and given rainbows. It’s been going on for 16 years in Gaza alone, and you’ll be in for a not so cute surprise if you see what israel is continuously doing to Gaza, unless you only acknowledge crimes if it’s the Arabs doing it The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 07:14, 8 October 2023 (UTC) Are you trying to be WP:POINTy or something? What's your goal with a title like that? DarmaniLink (talk) 11:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC) This is no more a massacre than the regular killings and kidnappings we see in this conflict every week, the only difference is that now Israel is on the receiving end. FunkMonk (talk) 12:15, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

death number of palestinian citizens ?

how many Palestine citizen have been killed please confirm it Syed Zain Ul Abideen Bukhari (talk) 13:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

According to the Palestinian health ministry, 370+ people were killed in Palestine. Around 50%, aka around 135~ deaths, were civilians.

More up-to-date sources i couldn't find yet. Well, at the time of writing.

The only other source is by the IDF and they only talk about 400+ killed "Hamas Terrorists". We don't know if all 400+ were terrorists or also civilians that were counted togheter. So the Palestinian Health Ministry is the only "good enough" source at the moment.

At the time of writing of course... Poles Ragge (talk) 14:13, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 October 2023 (2)

Finnish state-owned media Yle tells that a dual-citizen of Finland and Israel has been injured in the clashes. Source: EtelaPuolanka (talk) 16:39, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Compare Talk:October_2023_Gaza−Israel_conflict#Lithuanian_killed for another case of a person with dual citizenship. If particularly notable, this should be mentioned in the prose in the relevant section of the article, but not in the infobox. Renerpho (talk) 16:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done If there is a reason to include the Finn (unlike the Lithuanian), please ask again and say so. Renerpho (talk) 16:59, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 October 2023 (4)

do supported by united states on israels side 47.204.53.161 (talk) 17:34, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Unclear and no sources. Not done.Selfstudier (talk) 17:51, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

What’s with the Nepalis?

Is it a transliteration of a Hebrew word or are these actual nepalis? TomGoLeen (talk) 14:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Actual Nepalis - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 14:09, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

There were Nepalese nationals who got caught up. But I do recognize the the demonym needs to be clarified. Borgenland (talk) 14:09, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The article should say why Hamas kidnapped Nepalis. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 18:52, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

No available explanation yet. Though I'd suspect they'd accuse them of propping up "enemy" economy. Borgenland (talk) 14:02, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Are the Nepali, Thai & Mexican abductees migrant workers, tourists or retirees? They're from countries unconnected to the conflict, so more relevant info on who they are & why they were targeted would be useful. Does Hamas regard migrant workers & tourists as their enemy, or as easy targets to kidnap for ransom? Jim 2 Michael (talk) 21:11, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Forgot to mention it but I added a link in the infobox to Nepali people to clarify it. (Don't change the link even if I know it's a redirect, specifically to avoid further confusion like this) ChaotıċEnby(talk) 20:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Celebrating protests

In Berlin the attacks where celebrated, things like that could be mentioned in the article https://web.archive.org/web/20231007231849/https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/terror-unterstutzer-feierten-angriff-aus-israel-polizei-lost-propalastinensischen-aufmarsch-in-berlin-neukolln-auf-10588360.html FSbiran (talk) 00:28, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

It might be more appropriate in the International reactions to the October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict article? --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 00:42, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I see now where including it would be appropriate. I'll add it in. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 02:32, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

This is indeed mentioned in List of international reactions to the October 2023 Gaza–Israel conflict#Demonstrations. Renerpho (talk) 17:17, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Lithuanian killed

Lithuanian killed in Israel.

Sources: https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/2095071/israeli-lithuanian-policemen-killed-in-hamas-attacks-media

https://www.lrytas.lt/lietuvosdiena/aktualijos/2023/10/08/news/izraelyje-zuvo-lietuvis-28649797 Ginas9999 (talk) 12:33, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

A lot of Israelis have dual citizenship. Listing every single one of them as a foreign citizen is misleading. FunkMonk (talk) 12:49, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Any killed individual should be counted for exactly one nationality, and in case of Israelies the nationality should be Israel. If the other nationality is relevant in some other part of the article, list it in the prose there. Animal lover |666| 14:55, 8 October 2023 (UTC)