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Hi all. I'm removing the section on North Korea. The section is only sourced with views from American missionary activists. Per the discussion [1] on the reliable sources noticeboard, they're maybe not the strongest sources.
Someone beat me to it lol, but this page has been sent to RPP due to edit warring that seems to show no signs of slowing down. Please refrain from breaking the 3 revert rule everyone! jayhawker6 (talk) 00:34, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose. The topic of this article is about genocides in history; events where we can say in Wikivoice, per both WP:DUE and WP:BALASP, that a genocide did occur. We can't say that about the Nakba; the position that it was a genocide is a fringe one, held by only a very small minority of scholars. To see just how fringe, look at our article on it; we don't even mention that some scholars have described it as a genocide. BilledMammal (talk) 08:20, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"The topic of this article is about genocides in history; events where we can say in Wikivoice, per both WP:DUE and WP:BALASP, that a genocide did occur."
This article's scope is currently quite broad and the article List of genocides even states "Genocides in history includes cases where there is less consensus among scholars as to whether they constituted genocide."
Oppose Per article scope, the article covers genocides from 1946 to 1999. Actions which are not considered genocides in consensus should not be included. This also includes Ethnic cleansing, transfers, mass movements of people induced following government persecution following WW2 be it of Germans, Jews from Islamic World etc... Per WP:WEIGHT, we should also beware the showing of fringe views as fact per WP:VOICE. I would not personally look at Wikipedia articles to check if considered genocide or not although it can be an indication. Overall I oppose it's placement here as well as other events which are considered genocide only by fringe scholars. Homerethegreat (talk) 10:15, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: If you want the scope of this article to just be the academic definitions clustering around that of legal genocide, then no. If your scope includes cultural genocide and ethnic cleansing, then yes (and using those keywords you will find plenty of corroborating neutral academic sources), but you must specify any inclusion criteria very clearly in the lede (a definition quoted from a single 1948 convention is not sufficient). Thus this RfC appears to be dependent on the discussion topic below. SamuelRiv (talk) 20:22, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on the assumption that the scope discussion below will settle on a high bar for inclusion. The charge of genocide is in WP:LABEL territory, so will need to be supported by significant weight of sources, and not just those that approach the issue from a single POV. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 12:46, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Absolutely there should, provided it is factually/historically accurate, be a section discussing the 1948 expulsion. That's where this current Gaza 'saga' began, and it's time there was extensive further international discussion about it. Many genocides are not viewed as such until seen through the lens of history.Coalcity58 (talk) 16:51, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Multiple editors are claiming that this article only lists genocides that are "uncontested" and can be "stated in wikivoice". Even a cursory glance at the article proves this notion false; many of the supposed perpetrators are described as merely being "accused of" genocide. The article also describes some of the genocides as "contested". So now that opens the question: what can we include? If we can include genocides that are of scholarly debate, then what's so special about the Nakba? Why can't it be listed? If we can only list genocides with clear consensus, than this article needs a major override. 296cherry (talk) 18:34, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The content of this article doesn't match its defined scope; in the lede and title it says "genocide", but in the body we include alleged genocides, ethnic cleansings, and massacres.
Strictly apply the currently defined scope, in the same manner as we do at List of genocides.
Change the scope to "Genocides and alleged genocides"
I think per article title this article ought to strictly limited to genocides. However option 2 is also feasible but it should not be fringe but a genocide that is rather widely recognized (the Armenian genocide for example, though of course it does not fall in the timeframe of this article). However this may leave a lot of wiggle room. At the moment I think option 1 is more favorable though option 2 is also alright under certain conditions. Homerethegreat (talk) 10:02, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Armenian genocide should be included in its own timeframe agreed. I will look at the Stolen genocide you sent now, however I do not pretend to know enough about it. However the forcible taking of children is I think one of the UN's genocide clauses. From having looked now there seems to be an academic debate of merit on the topic however, I still feel reservations including it. I think it's best to wait for more voices on the topic in this respect. Homerethegreat (talk) 10:19, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, option #1 with tight criteria and a high bar for inclusion, otherwise it will be a dumping ground for anything where achieving the label of genocide is viewed as a political win. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 12:35, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would support option 1, as it stands the article is a mess. If we are going to include ethnic cleansing such as the Nekba and explusion of the Germans post WW2 the article should be renamed. I think any list of alleged genocides would have to be handled very carefully, in some case it could involve allegations against living individuals and BLP applies whoever the subject is. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested«@» °∆t°21:30, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the massacres, as no possible scope of this article can include them. I've left ethnic cleansings and alleged genocides while discussion here proceeds. BilledMammal (talk) 08:06, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Option 1 -- as Homerethegreat mentions, the title is a constraint here. I do not support option 2 insofar as it contains allegations; as ActivelyDisinterested mentions there's real risk there regardless of whether it's a combined article or if we were to say, split it off into separate ones for confirmed and alleged. ⇒SWATJesterShoot Blues, Tell VileRat!05:15, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
