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Lead image

I've included two possible candidates to be the lead image to the right. A is the current lede image, while B is (in my view) a better candidate.

MOS:LEADELEMENTS says that all images (but the lead image in particular) should be relevant and technically well-produced. And MOS:LEADIMAGE says that the lede image should be representative, a natural representation (I'm not really sure what this means), an appropriate representation and the type of image used for similar purposes in high-quality reference works.

B is from 1966, while A is from 1987, which means that B was taken while Heath was Conservative Leader and only four years away from being Prime Minister, while A was taken 12 and 13 years after he had left each of these roles, respectively. And it is clear that Heath is most notable for being Prime Minister. Heath in A doesn't really look like how he looked as Prime Minister, but as an older gentleman. It is clear to me that this makes B a much more relevant and appropriately representative image.

Secondly, A is clearly a better quality image than B. A is 10,157 × 12,633 pixels, while B is 581 × 708 pixels. But this is to be expected, as A was taken over 20 years before B and A is a professional photograph of exceptional quality (for comparison, Harold Wilson's lead image is 1,927 × 2,566 pixels). However, I don't think that B is of a low enough quality to mean that it isn't technically well-produced and the type of image used for similar purposes in high-quality reference works (remember Heath was a politician most notably from the 1960s and 70s). And I can't find anything on MOS:IMAGES that specifies a minimum size. Anecdotally, on my rather large monitor, I can't notice the low quality at all and we must remember that the image will only appear on phone screens and in the top right hand corner of the page.

Finally, and I realise that this may be subjective and that it may not really fit into any Wikipedia policy, but B is clearly a kinder image of Heath than A, A being taken when he was in his 70s and not really smiling. Please let me know what you think about this! FollowTheTortoise (talk) 18:18, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Allan Warren photo has been the consensus lead image for quite a while, and I'm happy with it because it is probably the best photo of Heath on Commons. Not a great fan of B as the infobox image.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 18:49, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback! I was wondering what you meant by "best" and why you're not a great fan of B. Thanks a lot in advance! FollowTheTortoise (talk) 20:00, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Allan Warren photo is technically and artistically the best photo of Heath. It also looks good in the infobox, which B doesn't as it is a less clear angle.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 20:10, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much for getting back to me. That's very clear. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 22:17, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that a photograph from the period when he was PM would be more appropriate. I do not think the issue should turn on the technical or artistic quality of the image as a portrait, for the reasons given by FollowTheTortoise, so long as it is of reasonable quality. However, I do not think that photo B is the most flattering of Heath, and if a better one could be found, that would be preferable. --Blurryman (talk) 22:48, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comment. I completely agree and will keep a lookout for a better image. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 23:03, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've added an option C. It might not be terribly kind (though it's not as bad as A), but Heath is almost facing the camera, it is from 1969 and it's 952 × 1,178 pixels, which is larger than B and (I think, at least) of a high enough quality for this article, especially when you bear in mind the fact that Heath's premiership began over 50 years ago! FollowTheTortoise (talk) 23:14, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

C is better but I'm not keen on Heath's forced smile (one of his trademarks). You can browse all of the photos of Heath on Commons here.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 08:04, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for getting back to me again! The big smile does seem to be a trademark of Heath's, so perhaps it makes C a more natural and appropriate representation? I think that this image would be perfect, but I don't think that it's avaliable to us. I've also added an option E, which I've seen around Wikipedia, but it is from 1960, so possibly shows Heath a little too young (though it's not as out of date as the 1987 picture and still shows Heath as a minister) and it's only 581 × 724 pixels (which might not disqualify it, but may still act against it). FollowTheTortoise (talk) 10:30, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What about this one? It might be possible to get permission from the National Portrait Gallery. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 10:56, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This would undoubtedly make a good infobox image if it was CC licensed, but since the National Portrait Gallery is selling it for money they are unlikely to allow its license to be changed. We'll have to stick to the ones on Commons. E is okay but it does show Heath as quite a bit younger than his term as Prime Minister.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 16:29, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree. In my view, C is the best image that we've got. ~~~ FollowTheTortoise (talk) 19:04, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A - I dont see anything wrong with the current image. MilborneOne (talk) 16:38, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comment! If you have a moment, it would be really useful if you could explain in a little more depth what you think about my concerns that A isn't very contemporaneous. It would also be useful to know, while you can't see anything wrong with A, whether you think that C (or B or E) would be a better pick. Thanks in advance. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 19:12, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There isn't a rule saying that it has to be a photo showing him as Prime Minister. This was only from 1970-74 and he lived to be 89. Overall, the Allan Warren image is still the best one.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 20:13, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your thoughts and thank you for taking the time to reply to me! That is true in an explicit sense. But the manual of style does say that the lead image should be relevant and representative (see above), which I understand as meaning that the image should be contemporaneous to the period that the subject is best known for (which for Heath is 1970 to 1974). To me, this means that the image should be from around this time and represent the subject as they were at this time, criterium I don't think that A meets. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 21:18, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I like C best for its date, and better quality than B. I personally believe that @FollowTheTortoise's rationale that period-relevant pictures are best makes sense, as it would reflect the most relevant and recognizable appearance that the person has had, irrespective of how they might look today when they are mostly old news, and so am against using A. CVDX (talk) 23:50, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As someone who remembers his tenure as PM, I find A B has a striking resemblance to the caricatures by Michael Cummings and is too low quality. B C has the trademark greasy smile and beats C E for me. Overall, I agree with the comment by ianmacm. Heath's 'incredible sulk' was a long and notable feature of his public life, and I think it is well captured by the Allan Warren image. William Avery (talk) 20:46, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much for replying! You might have got your lettering confused, but I think that I've got the jist of what you're saying. It is clear to me that Heath was best known for the period 1970 to 1974 (when he was Prime Minister), secondly 1965 to 1975 (when he was Conservative Leader) and then thirdly during his so-called "incredible sulk" from circa 1975 onwards. But this is not to forget his career as a minister and MP before 1965, which perhaps comes fourth. Therefore, the image should preferably be from the first period, but if not then the second period. I personally don't think that it is appropriate to have an image of Heath 12 and 13 years after he stopped being Conservative Leader and Prime Minister, respectively, during a period that he is only third most famous for, and when he didn't really look like he looked as Prime Minister and Conservative Leader. FollowTheTortoise (talk) 21:28, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry. I've corrected the letters. William Avery (talk) 21:48, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No probs. I made the same mistake! FollowTheTortoise (talk) 09:25, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'd vote for photo C. (But what happened to photo D?) --Blurryman (talk) 22:58, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for replying! ~~It got delayed by the three day week.~~ I might have been thinking about another image that I'd link to when I added E, but it is a mistake. Thanks for pointing it out! FollowTheTortoise (talk) 09:25, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in favor of C because it was taken close to the time that Heath became Prime Minister. Emiya1980 (talk) 09:45, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Blurryman, @FollowTheTortoise, @Ianmacm, @MilborneOne, @William Avery, an editor has re-opened this old discussion thread. @Neveselbert, this appears to be about your reversion (twice) of a recent change to the lead image.

(While I'm here: FTT, image quality is not the same thing as image resolution. In terms of resolution, there is no minimum size, but a minimum width of 300px is best for an image in an infobox, and if you can get at least 480px, that would be even better [because the default is 240px, and some phones/displays can use double the number of pixels in the same space].) WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:44, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't changed my opinion. Allan Warren's portrait is technically and artistically the best one on Commons by a wide margin. While it might be nice to have an image showing him closer to his time as Prime Minister, none of the black and white ones that have been suggested is ideal. Also, there is no absolute requirement to show him while he was Prime Minister.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 06:10, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I still favour the 'incredible sulk' image that is used currently. I'm sceptical of the value of re-opening the old discussion and inviting the participants to opine again, though I also understand why that has been done, rather than proceeding immediately to an RFC. William Avery (talk) 07:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If this can be resolved with the regular editors, then that would be great. If it needs a community-wide discussion via RFC, then it would be best to have an obvious attempt at complying with WP:RFCBEFORE, which means having more than one comment on the talk page that is less than three years old.

@William Avery, just to confirm, what you're calling the 'incredible sulk' image is the same as what Ian's calling "Allan Warren's portrait", which is the full-color option labeled "A" above, right? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:33, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes William Avery (talk) 14:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A is the best of the available options. None of the alternatives are good enough to open RFC. I caught wind of this discussion via the "too many RFCs" discussion after another RFC was needlessly extended[1] on the same topic. Nemov (talk) 12:41, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A does seem to be the best of the options to me. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 11:25, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 October 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Snow closure. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Calidum 14:14, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Edward Heath → Ted Heath – Nobody ever calls him Edward Heath, it's always Ted Heath, so that's the name we should use for his article, following Wikipedia:Article titles. Richard75 (talk) 10:24, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. This is how the subject of the article is most commonly referred to in reliable secondary sources, eg BBC News.[2] I'm not seeing a preponderance of Ted Heath in these mainstream sources.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 10:42, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Unlike, say, Tony Blair or Bill Clinton, Heath was and is usually referred to in serious sources by the name Edward. "Ted" is and was used in informal sources, but it is nonsense to say that "nobody ever calls him Edward". Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:55, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, as per Ghmyrtle. He was also known as "Teeth Heath" and "Grocer Heath", but wouldn't suggest either of those as a better title. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:00, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as per Ghmyrtle. To provide reference for this, the UK government website refers to him as "Edward Heath", while it refers to Tony Blair as "Tony Blair" (despite Tony being a contraction of Anthony). Combined with other sources, "Edward Heath" complies with WP:COMMONNAME. Bibeyjj (talk) 11:04, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ian Harvey

Recently I saw a TV interview with Michael Cockerell, in which he mentioned a tale of somebody finding a copy of Ian Harvey's memoirs (1971) lying in Sir Ted's study, inscribed with "To Ted, who knows what's it's like" or words to that effect. When the same person called a second time, the book had been removed and was nowhere to be found.

At least one of Sir Ted's earlier biographers (I forget which one) mentioned that the example of Ian Harvey's disgrace might well have been among the factors causing Heath to keep his inclinations to himself.

I haven't kept up with Michael Cockerell's books in recent years, but maybe he mentions the tale in print somewhere.Paulturtle (talk) 04:05, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Rfc on lede image

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Which of the following photos should serve as the lede image for Edward Heath? Emiya1980 (talk) 22:48, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A (Current Image)
B
C
D

Emiya1980 (talk) 22:48, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion (Rfc on lede image)

Procedural close What a bizarre turn of events. The discussion above didn't require a RFC. Everyone who responded the past month supported the status quo except for Emiya1980, who seems to have an insatiable thirst for creating RFCs about infobox images. This disruption to the RFC process needs to stop here. Nemov (talk) 23:28, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There was not a snowball consensus in favor of the current lede in the prior discussion. Three other editors in addition to myself voted in favor of C which comprises about half of the editors who opted to participate in the aforementioned thread.

On another note, your insistence on attacking me in nearly every Rfc I've opened this year is really bordering on hounding, Nemov. Emiya1980 (talk) 23:47, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Off-topic

Please stop pinging me with your silly accusations and please stay off my TALK. This RFC makes it 100% clear you're not interested in listening to other editors. Nemov (talk) 00:20, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dismiss my statements as "silly" all you want, Nemov. Your personal attacks towards me in every Rfc I've opened recently clearly falls within the definition of harassment. Conversely, when I asked you on my talk page for concrete guidelines on how my edits could be less disruptive from your point of view, you remained silent. Seeing as how you seem primarily interested in discouraging me from changing the status quo rather than giving constructive advice on how to improve my editing, I admit I have little to no interest in listening to you whatsoever. Emiya1980 (talk) 00:39, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever previous events involving @Emiya1980 might have occurred, I can't agree that this qualifies for a snowball close, given that several other editors (including @FollowTheTortoise, @Blurryman, @William Avery, and myself) supported option C. In my view, the fact that some of the support was given more than one month ago doesn't have any bearing on this. CVDX (talk) 00:00, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
B with A as a second choice (summoned by bot). D is straight out as it makes the bastard look almost handsome, which is misleading the reader. C would be my third choice. Herostratus (talk) 02:05, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why would it be misleading? Senorangel (talk) 03:05, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A is a high-quality, professional, color image. I think it's the clear choice here. If it comes down to the other options, it's D>B>C, but they're all a serious reduction in suitability. As WAID notes in the prior discussion, quality is not synonymous with resolution, but the non-A options have a low enough resolution that the quality is noticeably poor. I prefer color when it is available, as it's more true to the subject's real-life appearance. I can see the appeal in choosing an image from during his prime ministership, but none of the options actually come from that time, and I wouldn't push for it anyway. Heath is someone that maintained a prominent, public career well past the 1987 photo. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:23, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't oppose a crop, but it doesn't seem necessary to me. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 11:58, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A cropped to focus on the face or C. Senorangel (talk) 03:05, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
C on the grounds that it is the closest in time to when he was Prime Minister which is what he is primarily famous for. Emiya1980 (talk) 07:36, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
C as more closely representing him during his most notable period. In A he is too old, in D he is too young. -- DeFacto (talk). 07:54, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A per all of my previous comments. It's the only one that is a really good photograph, and there is no absolute requirement to show him during his time as prime minister.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 07:56, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A which could be cropped. Graham Beards (talk) 08:31, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A The post-prime-ministerial portrait is best. Professional and in colour. William Avery (talk) 08:52, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
C followed by B as close to when he was Prime Minister. Heath was most prominent in an era & country from which easily available colour photographs are rare (British government photos weren't instantly released to the public domain or under a fixed copyright term unlike some countries) so the choice is invariably strained but national leaders should be depicted as close to their time in office as possible, not as veterans many years later. Timrollpickering (talk) 09:33, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A followed by C, and while A could be cropped it doesn't need to be. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 10:48, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
C seems best for its date, and better quality than B. I personally believe that period-relevant pictures are best makes sense, as it would reflect the most relevant and recognizable appearance that the person has had, irrespective of how they might look today when they are mostly old news, and so am against using A. D would be okay, but seems too much on the younger side. CVDX (talk) 23:00, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A is clearly the highest quality image, however as per a couple of other editors a crop of that image would be better. There are two alternative crops over on commons. Why did the editor starting this RFC not look there?
Crop of A

TarnishedPath^talk 01:09, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A, as per all of the previous arguments for why. I also second the notion that this RfC seems unnecessary considering how the discussion played out. --Brocade River Poems (She/They) 01:24, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A No need to crop it in my opinion. The photo was taken with that frame in mind and looks off if cropped. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cinemaandpolitics (talk • contribs) 13:13, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]